SGOTM4 - Game Thread.

Hi everyone, and welcome to your game thread.

Here is the start position.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4.jpg

Note: EVERYONE has to install the correct resource graphics whether or not they have played this scenario or GOTM before. If you haven't done it yet, you had better get a wriggle on.

The saves will be available once the timelock has been released tonight (19th September).

Here are some links you might find useful.

The original GOTM28 Announcement. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/gotm28_india.shtml)
The Draft Constitution (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1733966&postcount=61)
The GOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=71788)
SGOTM4 - Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=100194)
Download latest Save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php)
Upload a Save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm.php)

This Months' sponsored variant is 5 City Challenge the rules for which are as follows.

1. You may not end a turn with more than 5 cities.

Team Leaders: It would be a good idea to PM your team mates to get them all checked in here as soon as is possible. ;)

Good luck everyone! :)

Welcome back, fellow members of team Alamo <rubs his hands in anticipation>. We've got our work cut out for us.
Welcome to our team, MailMan! :) We're all friendly and quite co-operative, so don't be afraid to pitch in with your two cents (or three cents, if you're Canadian, or 1.2 cents if you're European, or... but let's not start that again) on our strategy and direction. We should spend some time before we start discussing our priorities and such.
We have another four or five hours of advantage over all teams except Staff and X-Team during which we know what civ we're playing with and they all don't :p , so let's make full use of this time!! :rolleyes: (Just in case any naughty lurkers are paying attention right now, I'll let you know by PM what I mean, MailMan.)
I would think we're trying for either diplomatic or 20k culture win (conquest is also workable, but my guess is that it will be very difficult unless we live on a pangaea). Our starting techs (alphabet and masonry) give us a headstart on building early wonders, but the traits (commercial and industrious) do not help much in the long run for culture. Also, the early UU is ideal for 5CC since we need relatively few of them (offsetting their expense and thus increasing their awesomeness), but means we have no advantage when it comes to conquering and pillaging later on. We just have to make sure that we also build archers or horsemen early on for skirmishing, so as to delay our GA unless the UU is absolutely necessary for our defence.
As far as government goes, a reprise of our Roman Republic is probably in order (I'm running a test game on 5CC-- standard size, Monarch diff., and as a republic I attained tech parity by the end of the MA as well as a 6000-culture capital without trying particularly hard).
Sorry for the long-winded post, but there's a lot to address... :mischief:
Finally, a reminder about the rules: you have 24 hours to post that you have got the save on your turn, and a further 48 hours to post your completed save. (This is mostly for MailMan's benefit.) If you need to switch or are aware of a delay, just tell us and we'll arrange things.
I'm proposing this order:
alamo
Sark
Taliesin
MailMan
Detlef
If this doesn't work, let us know.

That's all for now, I think. :)

Hello Team,

Happy to join in.
Although I am playing Civ for long time (since the original civ) and lurking this site for a while as well, this succession GOTM is my first active participation.

I usually play at Monarch/Emparor levels and usually win. I will be happy to learn from your experiance and share my own thoughts.

I havn't played yet a 5CC game, but it sound to me that our first priorities are:
1. build: 2 warriors to explore the near by location to decide on the best locations for our cities and then temple (if we are going for 20K in our capital) and a settler.
2. research: CB for temple, Wheel to find horses, IW to find Iron and than slow down tech as much as possible to allow more wonders.

Edit: The initial move should be worker to east (or perhaps NW), unless there is something interesting, settle in place.

After the initial build phase, we shuld do some leaders farming.

MailMan.

I'am in.
Welcome MailMan to the formaly glorious Roman Empire of Team Mauer (SGOTM3). We all hope that we can go on with this. But i think we have not enough experience to win this as easy as the last one. The cracks of the other teams are very good with this variant (Look at the Deity 5CC SG's).

My 1.2€cent: moving the worker NW, can bring us more light to the dark. But i think we should settle at the start location. An good point is, we have no necessity to build a settler factory :D .
2 warriors sound good, followed by a temple and a settler. We also need a lot of worker to get ASAP improved tiles.
OK, thats enough money spended by me, because i'am normaly warmongering like crazy and i can't tell you more about this culture thing.

Greetings all, and welcome to the team. Looks like Taliesin has gotten things off to a good start.

As Taliesin said, the deadlines are 24hr-gotit/48hr-postit. Play when your turn is up or get skipped. It's nothing personal, just the best way to keep things moving and the team focused on the game. That includes skipping the mascot (me) if I am the least bit tardy.

Edit: I finally see that the saves are available (and it's carthage) - doh! GOT IT!

I concur on all points, and call for a 20k(?) culture city victory, with diplo the fallback. That will mean culture buildings ASAP and wonders early and often, rushed with many MGL's (like in the recent Kunnigas Aztec GOTM).

All the warmongering will no doubt keep the bloodthirsty team members happy, but we must be careful to choose our battles and not get dogpiled. No doubt we're surrounded by hostile civs with early UU's, so diplomacy will be essential. At any time we may need to secure MA's against a hostile civ, or we may need to negotiate a peace ASAP, or we may desperately need a strategic resource.

To that end I suggest these rules of reputation:

- Establish EMBASSIES and RoP's with civs not in imminent path of destruction.
- Always declare war BEFORE attacking or entering enemy territory (if not at war)
- Never break a deal
- Avoid per-turn deals in favor of lump-sum deals when possible
- Observe all MPP's and avoid any chain reaction that will break a deal
- Refuse any offer of trade embargo
- Trade maps around at least once every 20 turns
- Refuse any offer of MPP unless we intend to make DoW or call UN vote
- Avoid kicking units out of our territory unless we intend to make DoW

Ok, sorry for the double post, but I need everyone to give an opinion on the opening moves.

Worker to E or NW? I would prefer the mountain view, though it means a wasted worker turn.

Build order - warrior, warrior, temple, settler?

We're carthage (commercial/industrious), so no temple.

Warrior priority - scout city sites or beeline for contacts?

Research priority - strategic resource or culture track?

Here's a starting spot close-up. Nothing in the fog.

I suggest 100% to Ceremonial Burial. I wouldn't move to the mountain, as that uses up two worker turns (one to get back) and can be done as soon as we have a warrior anyway. Strategic resources are probably not an immediate consideration (horses are probably the most difficult to get) and we'll have the relevant techs by the time we're placing our last couple of cities.
How shall we place our cities? We could minimise corruption with a ring or half-ring placement, but I expect that terrain considerations will outweigh this (every city needs to be maximised and we want to be fairly spread out to grab more land).
We absolutely must enter the IA in a dominant tech position (I tested this... it isn't pretty if you're slightly behind...), or else we will fall behind ever more quickly as our small size catapults us backward. Aggressive warmongering and shrewd dealings should slow the tech enough to permit us to grab most of the wonders. Luckily, the capital is good for Hoover Dam...
More tomorrow! I must sleep now. zzzz......

OK, start mining SW. Temple for culture, not more. I think we need all we can have for 20K.
If i'am right, corruption depends on the different distances to the capitol. We can't build more then another 4 citys, so it's possible to build each of them to a distance of 5 (after we can see what the terrain looks like). This gives us maximum tiles and a good corruption.

My opinion:

Worker & Build: As stated in my previous post - E & Warrior*2, temple. Temple can be rushed with forest chop. It depend on the amount of shields in the fog.
We can use the free Masonry free tech as pre-build to temple.

Another option for build: warrior*3, settler

Research path should be considered according to our rivals' free tech (from SS screen). For now I suggest: CB 100% and then writing 100%, trying to hold on the alphabet trade to be the first to it.

I vote for seeking out our nighbours first with our warriors.

RCP 5 sound OK for now. depend on the land we get. I think RCP is less important in 5CC but we still want to aim for it.

I downloaded the save and after fog gazing I believe there is a cow SE,SE
Our rivals are:
Indian: CB + AB
Greeks: BW + AB
Ottomans: Mas + BW
Romans: WC + AB
Babs: BW + CB
Persian: Mas + BW
Vikings: Pot + WC
Celts: WC + CB
Germans: BW + WC

Total techs: 5*BW, 2*Massonery, 3*AB, 1*Pottery, 4*WC, 3*CB, 0*Wheel.

Since there is already 4 civs that know CB, I suggest starting with either the wheel/writing/math and get CB by trade.

Regarding the cow: I suggest moving worker to E in order to verify it, and then settler SE. It is still on the river, with cow accessable strait away.
Second move of the worker is to irrigate the cow.

Hmmm...now that you mention it - COW!

I though it was just more forest - there is definite forest on that tile, but it could be the bleed-over.

If it is a cow, then we'll get it by border expansion in about 10 turns, so is it worth the settler move to get the cow sooner?

RCP with radius 5 sounds good.

Not much agreement on the tech - CB vs Trade Fodder

Beeline for contacts with warriors was the only vote for the walkabout.

Sark - got any pearls of wisdom for us?

Last call for comments - I'll play this evening (about 8 hours after this post).

If it is a cow, then we'll get it by border expansion in about 10 turns, so is it worth the settler move to get the cow sooner?


With the current info I believe that moving closer to the cow is better:
settle on place:
+2 culture (in the long run of one turn palace)
expands one turn sooner (score issue)
+1 shield (more if we irrigate the cow instead of mining BG)
move the settler SW:
+7 food by turn 10 without irrigration. (3 are "wasted" on the move turn)
may grow 2-3 (with irrigration) turns earlier and use the extra pop for extra shields/commerce.

Of course that a new view of the worker may result in new info.

Would you like to go first, MailMan? You're obviously not a complete novice.

Say the word and I'll defer my move.

You can take as many as 20 turns the first time, but feel free to stop and ask for input at a decision point.

Thanks alamo, but I will leave the honur to you.

Ok, I moved the worker and saw the cow, but also COASTLINE :eek:

This does not look good for a settler move SE, not to mention 4 great city spots.

Should I settle on the spot?

If this weren't 5CC I would just settle, but this is a very big decision.

My gut feeling is that moving SE is probably best (it will provide some extra forest to make up for the coastal squares). The early food production will outweigh the slight shield cost, I think. However, the opening is by far the weakest part of my game, so I'll defer to others on this one. I can't see any major argument against moving, but I'm not 100% certain.
(It's a great starting location, btw. It looks like we may have to place our cities in a half-ring, with our back to the water. At least the proximity of the water means we can have at least one port city.)

If we had scouted the mountain first then maybe we would consider moving another direction, but now it looks like a choice between settling on the starting spot or the SE tile.

If we move SE then there may be 2 water tiles in the 21-tile city area without the benefit of a harbor - possibly just 1 food tiles! That will really hurt if we get to sanitation.

Is moving for the sake of early beefstakes worth 2 bad tiles?

If we settle on the starting spot then we can have the cow improved in time for the expansion, since we're industrious.

Sorry, but i can't see a good decision to move. I prefer settling on spot and i also think, we can manage 2 coastel citys and all 4 citys at a 5 tile destination. But we have to explore more for this. We don't really need the cow at this early stage and we get it sooner or later by expansion.

difficult decision.
I vote for moveing SE. It will allow early access to the cow as mentioned in previous post. It will also allow to irrigate the cow strait away without irrigating a BG first. the 2 water tiles will only hurt us starting from the middle of IA.

Why was the worker moved SE instead of E? E whould have revealed more tiles as well as a chance of not wasting a worker turn, since E has high probability of being the first tile that we want to improve.

I can't see the needing of the cow so early. We need no settler factory and we get it after the first culture expansion (I think after 10 turns).

We may want to consider different approach to the 20K win: 20K in the second city.

In that case our first city should spawn a warrior to scout for location and then a settler ASAP. The first city in that case acts as 2/3 turns worker factory to join and improve the second city.

This might be a little risky, depending on how much we can scout before we have to commit ourselves to a worker factory. This is a pretty strong starting location, and the chances of finding a better one in the 12 turns or whatever it will take to build the settler are fairly slim.

Has anyone heard about Sark??

I just sent a PM to him in case he didn't know our thread is up.

I moved the worker SE to see exactly what the settler would see. Moving E would not reveal the tile S-SE.

I hate to have sea tiles w/o a harbor. I guess that's legacy of civ2. :)

On the positive side, if it is a long coastline then we will have a more defensible position.

Looks like we're deadlocked - Sark, where are you?

On the positive side, if it is a long coastline then we will have a more defensible position.


Can you explain this?

It just means we won't be completely surrounded by other civs.

If we were surrounded then we could be attacked from all sides.

I decided to just play 10 turns, since I had to make some judgement calls.

Whoever posts first can go next. Save is HERE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_BC3550_01.SAV)

Our borders will expand to the cow next turn. Wheel in 14 turns.

Here's the turnlog and screenie.

4000BC(1) - Moved worker SE - settled on the spot. Sci/Lux to 100/0 for wheel in 27. Warrior in 5.

3950BC(2) - Worker NE.

3900BC(3) - Worker Irrigates.

3850BC(4) - Nada.

3800BC(5) - Worker roads.

3750BC(6) - Warrior complete (named War1). Start another. War1 to NW - spot coastline to W, 3 spices.

3700BC(7) - Worker S. Now I see the Eastern Sea, and another river to the S. War1 to E.

3650BC(8) - Worker Irrigates. War1 to SW - see the Western Sea, mountains to the S.

3600BC(9) - War1 S - see more mountains - yuk!

3550BC(10) - Worker roads. War1 to S.

Ouch... that doesn't look altogether too propitious. I hope the warrior uncovers some good ground to the south, or that will be a pain.
There is probably some good land to the north for the other three cities. It looks like the ring is not feasible (we'll look more like an anchor, or a giant foot or something).

Maybe there's better land near the oysters, but it looks ugly.

I sent the first warrior south because we are in the northern part of the minimap.

The next warrior can scout to the north.

Who wants the next turn?

Look on the bright side:

Our capital is defended since there are only two possibe fronts.

The city to the south will also enjoy defensive bunus from the mountains.
Since there is less point in expanding in 5CC, we can place fortified defenders on the mountain and let our enemies come to us.
Once we get horses connected we can also raid the attackers and go back to the mountains. It will probably be very productive for leaders fishing.

Mountains are also not so bad for 5CC since our main consideration will be production rather than food. We probably should have only one city which is food reach to act as a worker factory. The workers can then join the production rich cities. A lot of worker will also be needed to work the rough terrain.

If no one else post a "got it" message, I will do so in about 10 hours. Advise is welcomed.

A mountain home will have a better chance of getting iron, too.

Barbs are restless, so it may pay to build a bunch of warriors and put them on barb patrol. If we're lucky we could upgrade the vets to swords, then MI, then guerillas.

It would be very nice to get mounted units, too. 2 moves and retreat are good for longer life.

This is a "got it" message.
I will now play 10 turns.

T0 - 3550 BC - Pre-check: OK. press enter
IBT: Warrior (war2) created. set production to settler. culture expands. we see one more cow 3*NW of the capital

T1 - 3500 BC: set citizens working to irrigrated BG and the cow. grow in 5. settler in 10. wheel in 13. sending war2 NE to explore second site that can use the new cow and the nearby hills. war1 S.

IBT - road on cow completed.

T2 - 3450 BC: wheel now at 10. setting worker to mine the irrigrated BG. since it already road it will save both a turn and a few commerce as opposed to the BG by the coast. war2 E spots a see in the fog. war1 S. war1 spots rome warrior on the mountains. Trade Masonery for WC + 10g (orriginal offer WC + 7).

IBT - Rome warrior moved E

T3 - 3400 BC: war2 N to cow. war1 SE.

IBT - none.

T4 - 3350 BC: war2 N spots whale. war1 S.

IBT - rome warrior move W. mine completed.

T5 - 3300 BC: war1 SW. war2 N. warrior to BG by the river.

IBT - city grow to size 3.

T6 - 3250: set lux to 10%. moved cittizen from forest to BG. wheel in 6, settler in 3 grow in 5. worker mine. war2 N spots the shore. war 1 SW. Rome has bronze working.

IBT - none.

T7 - move cittizen from BG back to forest to allow settler in 1. grow in 6. war1 SE. war2 W.

IBT - settler created. set production to archer (can be changed)

T8 - set since back to 100%. wheel in 5.

I Stopped here to discuss what to do with the settler. The next one can continue from the SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_BC3150_01.SAV) after a "got it" message.

In the below picture I marked two yellow dots at RCP6 and two red dots at RCP5. I suggest sending the setller to the gold dot in the NE. It is a good spot to spawn more settlers.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69234&stc=1

I guess the city placement will hinge upon what is to the northwest of Carthage. If there is no hospitable land there, I think one city should be placed one square NW of the northern gold dot already marked, and one on the forest NE of Carthage. If there is a better location to the NW, then only one NE site is needed (and the red dot is probably the optimal placement). In the south, I would more or less agree with the placement of the gold dot; the final city could be placed where our southern warrior is right now. An alternative in the south, depending on the terrain around the oysters, would be to put one city on what looks like the hills E-SE of the red dot, and the other on the river, NW-NW-N of the southern warrior. This wouldn't grab the wool, though, so it's probably acceptable only if other resources are present.
The northern warrior can sufficiently explore the NW by the time the settler has to make a decision between the red dot and the site NW of the gold dot, so I think the settler can safely set out in that direction.
Sorry for referring to sites by their directional position relative to landmarks, but I haven't figured out yet how to submit doctored screenshots like the one above (whenever I try it's way too big).
EDIT: I have the save already. I can play it (I haven't heard from Sark yet, maybe he's busy or something), but I'll wait for input before I go implementing my zany schemes... :crazyeye:

According to the visible land and the fact that we only encoutered Rome from the south, there is a good chance that we are the northen civ on our land mass. Therefore It might be a good idea to first grab the southern location in order to deny Rome from them.

The final city placment will probably be 3 RCP5 cities (N, NE and SW of the capital) and the final city far to the south. The N city should probably be on the shore.

Rgarding the pictures - I used photoshop to add the dots and save it as jpg. The jpg format can be greatly comressed (at the cost of the quality). When you save your picture, make sure to check the properies of the jpg compression.

EDIT: Note that both the warriors (and the settler) not moved yet in this turn. move them first to get a better view of the area.

Okay, thanks.
I don't know if you've missed it (it doesn't seem to appear on your screenshot) but there are two sheep in the area of the southern yellow dot, as well as a wool on that southernmost visible hill. Just FYI, in case your graphics download isn't functioning properly or something.
Do you mean we should grab the south yellow dot first, or the far south site (for instance, where our warrior is currently standing)?
EDIT: Okay, I'm going to play one turn (or half a turn) and see where I stand.

Okay. I've played 1.5 turns.
3150 BC (Turn 1) Move warriors. Not much of interest appears. The settler moves east and north.
3100 BC (Turn 2) Southern warrior discovers that the water visible at the south of the map is a lake. Rome is just south of this. There is an ideal site that is on the lake and has access to two wools and a few BGs. Unfortunately, Rome will undoubtedly get it first (or, more likely, spoil it with an abysmal city placement). Either way, this will mean war... The NW is hospitable for settlement. The major question facing me is whether to settle on the northeastern yellow dot or the northeastern red dot. The yellow dot gives more land tiles and a generally better position, but completely wastes that second cow. The red dot wastes a BG. I can't do anything with the worker until we decide where to settle.
Too bad this is 5CC... if it weren't, I would squeeze at least 5 cities into the area to the north of Carthage. :lol:

I would first go to the yellow Southern dot and then the red Northern dot.
Can you insert a new pic Taliesin? I think we need more visible lands to decide the positions of our last two citys.

Taliesin: You were right, I did not installed the added graphics and missed the sheeps.

The sheeps (+2 food +1 shield) are very useful and make the gold dot to the south very appealing to settle.

I agree with Detlef that this spot should be settled first, as well as the red dot to the north that should be settled next.
The red dot will give us in time both the cow and the whale (at the cost of the BG settled).

There is not much point in RCP now due to the "strange" shape of the land. It is more important to settle in places that utilize our land to the maximum.
Since we are commercial, the corruption is less of a issue.

I'm not sure about the corruption being negligible. We will certainly want everything we can get in a war.

I guess 2 ranks would not be so bad, but let's not get 4!

The oysters and rocks appear to be missing, as well. I wonder if the tile still has the bonus.

Please post a new screenshot (with the grid on), or upload a partial-turn save.

Sorry, I'm having difficulty getting a picture up. (I just got a new computer and I don't have Photoshop installed yet... I'm sorry I'm ignorant about this aspect of the forums.)
Here's the save partway through my second turn, at any rate.
I have to go now. I'll be back in about an hour to try to post the picture.

I always use the Screenshot-Manager and Paint. I think it's standard if you have XP.

Attached is a screenshot from Taliesin save.
I added 3 red dots in a RCP6 if we choose RCP and 1 blue dot as an alternate to one of the reds.

Since the settler already moved, I suggest going for either the red or the blue to the NE. Altough the red dot to the SW is very appealing.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69324&stc=1

I think the blue dot is better, it gives us a second city with access to the sea. The other two are totally clear. I hope we can put our number 4 somewhere to the SE. Too far away at the S is really bad for defending.

Okay, I'll move to the blue dot in the NE. The problem with the red dot in the SW is that that site will only ever be able to generate 14 food. That's why I think it might be better to locate both southern cities south of the mountain range.

What about the hill 2 tiles more SW? There is defnetly more grassland and if we could build a city at SE we can defend this Mountainrange very easily.
Can you move the warrior to the N, that we can see more of the coastline going?

Okay. I've finished my ten turns, and we can see pretty much all of our surrounding land.

3050 Turn 3 Northern warrior discovers some ivory. (Which is pretty weird-- one doesn't usually find elephants living in artic forests, but oh well... maybe they're mastodons or something.)
3000 I think Rome has contact with another civ-- their gold sudenly dropped to 0.
2950 Found Utica on northeastern blue dot.
2900 Complete the Wheel. No horses are visible! :( I start Ceremonial Burial-- 8 turns at 100%. I trade the Wheel to Caesar for Bronze Working.
2850 Nothing to report.
2800 Carthage builds a warrior and starts another settler. I'm thinking this one should go south to grab some of that prime real estate north of Rome.
2750 Nothing to report.
2710 Utica builds a warrior. A warrior in the SW spots a goody hut, two moves away.

Some lovely land to the south, room enough for two thriving cities. It even tempts me to wonder if we should make Rome our fifth city... it looks like it has an excellent position.

Shame about the horses.

I suggest making Utica a worker factory. We are currently very short of them. I suggest that we even change the current build from warrior to worker.

If we are not using RCP, I suggest puting our third city further to the SW. to be exact, on the grass W of the second sheep.
The mountains will prevent other civ from setting near by that city. The city is by the river with more food (sheeps and grass) than previous location.

Who wants to go next?

That mountain spot with sheep isn't that bad. A size 7 city with lots of shields could be useful, especially if it gets us iron. We don't have that much room to be picky.

I'm a little hesitant about putting cities far away from the capital w/o a FP. Even if they're rank 2 they will be fairly corrupt, won't they?

Before we get into war mode we should prepare for the inevitable GA, given our UU. We should have all 5 starting cities at least. What should we build in each? How much gold should we keep for troop support?

I use the photo editor and save as 8-bit color png to save space.

That location sounds good, MailMan. A worker factory is a good idea-- it can alternate military with workers. We need to ensure we have a decent force to send down to defend our southern settlements-- since it's a long way down, we can't defend it by proxy.
Regarding the GA: I think the mountain range will work to our advantage in putting this off as long as possible (especially if we manage to find some horses), since we can erect a defence of first strikes from the mountains using swords and horses. Hopefully, an opposing force will never attack a Mercenary unless we want it to.
Sark hasn't replied, so I guess it's Detlef's turn.

Here's a crazy idea - jump the palace to an optimal RCP 4 placement.

Neat, but probably unworkable. We'd have to found two extra cities and build an extra palace. Also, a lot of our tiles would be ocean tiles. Finally, we'd miss whatever resources are available to the south-- definitely wool, and probably iron.
It's pretty cool that that would work, though.
EDIT: Actually, I changed my mind. If we can do this with a minimum of effort, it's probably worth a try. The lack of resources is slightly worrying, but probably not as important as having such a solid, well-laid-out city base. The only other problem that comes to mind is the delay in getting our culture city up and running, but I'm sure we can surmount it.

Yeah, the culture setback might be fatal. Is the palace culture already doubled?

Yup. It is. (I know, it's redundant, but I have to use at least 5 characters, apparently.)

I hope you are joking regarding the palace jump.
Few of the many drawbacks of this idea:
- we loss our current two cities
- we loss our current culture (for the 20K city)
- we will control VERY small land. which lead for less resources. less power (we can be bullied more) and much lower score.
- the tiles of the cities are overlapping which will hurt us after we get hospital.
- there are many water tiles that can not be improved much.
- the locations are not very shield reach.

Ok, crazy idea.

I was suprised that a very good player was considering FP build then a palace jump in GOTM35, though.

Who's going next?

It's Detlef's turn, but the save's been up for more than 24 hours now. I guess he might not have realised he's up (because Sark hasn't showed either), so we could leave it until tomorrow. If he doesn't post by tomorrow morning then I guess alamo should take it.
EDIT: It looks like you might as well go ahead, alamo.

Well, I hate to skip someone before they take their first turn.

Mailman, Detlef - take a turn!

I already played 7 turns. I do not mind to go again, but it is not my turn

As long as someone plays...
We can put Detlef up as soon as he signs on, so it might not be skipping as much as rearranging.

Oh yeah - sorry MailMan. I'll do a few turns if nobody grabs it in the next few hours.

Sorry guys, my PC at home sucks, i've got no internet access.
So i must wait until today and my PC at work.
I say 'Got it' and i post tomorrow.

Here we go:

2670: nothing

2630: Pottery from goodyhut

2590: ceremonial -> writing

2550: Carthage builds settler, next barracks

2510: Utica builds warrior, next worker

2470 - 2390: nothing

2350: Utica builds worker, next worker

2310: nothing

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_BC2310_01.SAV

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/alamo_2310BC_pic1.JPG

I think we have not yet decided the last two locations.
What about the last two hills left and right of the mountainrange?

If we going for the 20K I suggest that Carthage will change production from Barracks to Temple. Actually Carthage should not build anything else but culture generating projects (mostly wonders).
We are already quite late for grabbing several wonders.

Utica should create settler next instead of a worker. After the settler it should build Barracs, and start a worker & warrior in a loop.

Workers should first improve Carthage tiles, then join it. future generated workers should improve the other tiles.

No word from Sark - I'll take a turn.

Culture 20k would be the fastest way to win, if we can get those wonders. We will need some MGL's. Since we have a defensive UU we will have to fight a defensive war.

If we want Ceasar to attack our Numidian Mercs on the mountain then we should not settle to the South.

barracks, thats my warmonger heart. But you are right MailMan, change it Alamo.
I think the two hills, one of them behind a river and both with ocean access, can give us a very good defending position. With walls in each city and some units along the tale through the middle of the mountainrange, the AI have no chance.

That makes sense from the perspective of establishing defence, but the placement for production seems less than ideal. It seems a shame to waste all the sheep and wool, not to mention the open grassland and fresh water near Rome.
If you moved the western site SE 1 tile, there would be more grassland and access to one of the sheep, while still having ocean access. And the eastern site could be moved S-SW to the forest. It would also still have access to the ocean, but would have better tiles for production. The defence would be almost as good-- with walls in the city and fortresses on the hills, we could block the land off east of the lake.
Also, a defensive garrison could be stationed on the southernmost mountain, midway between the two cities. Based on our strategy of mountain defence, these sites probably optimise the cities, IMHO.
EDIT: Detlef, your screenshot seems to be missing the wool and rocks-- maybe you have the same problem as MailMan? :confused: This would affect your selection of the ideal city placements, I guess.

We need to place the 4th city. Which spot do you like? SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_BC1910_01.SAV)

2310BC(0) - Ceasar has IW, but no iron so far. Switch Carthage to temple, Uttica to settler. I assume that the settler has arrived at the next city site. There are 3 bg's, 2 hills, and forest with radius 5.

2270BC(1) - Leptis Magna founded - starts warrior. Escort rests to heal. Roman settler spotted. Will try to cross Roman territory to gain contact.

IBT: Antium founded between twin-sheep hills.

2230BC(2) - Workers mine and road. Spot another Roman settler. Roman land is very good - if it were not 5CC we would have to build a dozen of archers and take Rome!

IBT: First barb appears near Rome and my scout (of course).

2110BC(3) - New Carthage citizen demands lux. Ceasar won't trade for IW.

2070BC(4) - Carthage starts Pyramids. Leptis Magna starts worker. Mil Advisor reports barb camp - spotted in mountains. Scout spots barb camp. Jealous Uttica citizens demand more lux.

IBT: Cumae founded away from mountains - whew!

2030BC(5) - Scout spots continent end - no other contacts!

1990BC(6) - Uttica builds settler, starts barracks. Settler heads for the hills! Barb camp cleared! Lux back to 0.

IBT: Roaming barb redlines warrior, but he's ok.

1950BC(7) - Moving, workers road.

Ok, not sure what to do with this settler.

1910BC(7.5) - Set lux to 10 (need that spice!)

I used to love those, but I haven't seen them for so long. My favourite as a kid was one about dinosaurs. What was this one about?

Do you know how long mad-bax will wait before posting results from SGOTM3?

See my previous post for my turn results.

[offtopic]
Oops - somebody's been posting. That Nova was about the Origins of Life. The first two hours were shown - earth's formation in 24 hours and the origins of life.

The most interesting thing was how Mars would be like earth if it had not lost it's molten iron core that generates the protective magnetic field.

There's lots of stuff at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/origins/

I will play next in several hours.

I wants to put the settler S of the eastern warrior.
That location has potential of 13 food in despotism, 18 food later on and 21 or so with RR.

Any advise is welcomed.

S of the warrior sounds good. Can we have a new pic to decide the last one?

Building up:

0) 1910BC - move settler. move warrior from Leptis to the capital for garssion duty.

IBT - Leptis worker --> barracks

1) Utica worker finished road, move it back to improve the capital. Warriors reveled new barb camp.

2) move around

3) kill some barbs and disband their camp. garrision warrior arrived to the capital. adjust sliders 4.6.0 to not waste beakers. writing next turn.

4) 1710BC. learn writing. set next goal to MM to explore abit with gallies and get some contacts. Estabilsh embacy in Rome. they have iron connected, sliders are 0.10.0, building spearman in 2 with no improvment. They apparntly learned writing the same turn as us. set our sliders to 0.10.0. MM in 22

5) adjust lux to counter Utice grow. send workers to road the spices. worker join the capital. grow in 1.

IBT - warrior comes from the north

6) found Theveste. set production to barracks. The Pyramids in 23
Utice: barracks-->warrior

IBT - barb warrior redline our warrior in the north
Rome learn Pottery, Rome start building the Pyramids (Sound like good news to us since they will waste a lot of shields on that.
Rome send settler+warrior toward us.

7) 1625BC. Utica: warrior --> worker.

IBT - Rome founded Pompeii. On our land mass they have place to one (at most two) more cities.


8) Utica: worker --> archer. spices connected, adjust sliders to 0.9.1 MM in 13.


9) warrior disband barb camp in the north.

10) move around

Here is the SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_BC1525_01.SAV)

I suggest building up some army and attack Rome. (Detlef should like this).

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=69999&stc=1

Yeahh, i know my time is coming. :lol:

By the way, which recources do you use?

In order to see the sheeps and the wool, you should install THIS (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4-PTWb.zip) file.

Regarding stratigcs resources:
I do not see any resources. Our continent/island do not have hourses.
We can not see Iron since we do not have IW yet.

I saw in Rome's stratigics resources that they have iron when I estabilshed embacy after getting writing.

Perhaps we can trade IW with the romans?

Ehmmm whats our roster now? Who's next?

If we're maintaining the order, I'm next, but I won't be able to play until tonight or possibly even tomorrow afternoon, so I suggest we switch and you play this turn, Detlef.
We need to decide on the location of our last city. Depending on our war plans against Rome, we might even want to make Antium or Rome or fifth. And I do agree that war against Rome must come soon, or else a large quantity of legionaries will come and destroy us.

We first need iron, Rome has it already. This means, they also have legions and without iron (swords) we have not the yota of a chance to build enough warrior and archer for this battle (we have only 4 citys). We should discuss these bevor we go on. We defnetly need barracks and walls at our outher citys, also enough warriors for upgrade. War against Rome without a good force means to quit the game early (with a loss).

I meant that since the only readily available iron seems to be owned by Rome, our only hope is to grab it before they build too big an army.
I suppose that it might be too late for this already, so we should formulate a backup strategy before long.
EDIT: I just noticed that Rome has only five cities (neatly arranged in RCP...) and cannot expand further without expanding into us, so war is looming anyhow. If only we had a large troop of elephants to march through that mountain range... :) With any luck, only one Punic war will be necessary.

Sch....t. :(
Ok, 20 warriors in two stacks with 2 spears and 2 archers at each should be enough to take the 2 Northern citys in about not more then 2 turns. Bevor this, we need a road to the front for faster reinforcement. After this we should sign peace and rebuild the next two stacks.

Okay. Go to it.
I can't think of any other solution than brute force, as you suggest. Knowing how it always goes, the iron is probably at the southern tip of the continent-- this war effort could go on for a while.

I also agree that we need to prepare ourselves to war. I already started it by building barracks.

We can not afford IW from the romans at this moment. I suggest building up warriors in preperation for an upgrade, in the mean while continue study MM, and hopfully it will allow us to either trade it against IW, or find our nighbours to trade with them and lower the price of IW.

Utica should continue warrior/archer + worker factory. We need those workers to help our capital, build roads and imporve tiles.

A stack of 5 numidians could hold the iron hill for some time. We would get the despotic GA, though.

We could really use a MGL for a FP in Rome.

I do not think that you can build the FP with only 5 cities. The MGL should be used for wonders in the capital, or 1 army to allow Heroic Epic if no current wonders are worth while.

Oh yeah - bummer :(

There is a radius 5 spot next to the oysters, and a radius 8 spot on the tundra near the ivory.

I bet the iron is on the hill next to Rome - why else would it get roaded so soon. It is across the river from Rome, though. A stack of numidians should do ok.

I saw in COTM5 pre-disccusion the following post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2220037&postcount=214) from ainwood:

"To be honest, I always tweak the resources, but the extent to which I do this varies. Sometimes I might shift luxury resources around, and sometimes I might shift strategic ones around. Sometimes I move both. For example, the GOTM 28 (India), the lack of iron and horses was pretty intentional! It is not necessarily always to the detriment of the human though - for example, in the demigod COTM (Byzantines?), I moved the ivory to near the player."

Since SGOTM4 is based on GOTM28, I fear we may not have iron as well.

This sounds not very well. With only 5 citys, it's hard to hold tons of warriors.
On more point to attack early on.

Why not just build a bunch of numidians?

We definitely need to get the last city founded and prepare for a despotic GA war.

Can we afford to have Carthage working on another wonder?

If you build numidians, you have your GA bevor our 5th city.

As soon as is feasible and useful, we need to connect the spices and ivory (it's too bad about the wool).
Given that we're shooting for cultural victory, it's a shame that our GA will happen so soon, but if we don't get iron or horses I see no way to success other than massing Numidian mercenaries. We will not reattain this level of relative military strength unless we surge to musketmen far ahead of Rome (or even riflemen, given that our terrain does not promise much chance of saltpetre, either).
In fact, the GA might be the boost we need to militarily overcome the Romans.
Our only beacon of hope is that, once we (hopefully) manage to overcome Rome, our continent is small enough for us to establish a "Fortress Carthage", ensuring effective military sovereignty over whatever resources are on the island. We'll be able to trade luxuries for iron and horses, hopefully.
alamo-- I don't think we can afford not to build another wonder. I guess we can take a short break to supplement the army, but our military buildup must be carried by our other four cities.

The GA will be triggered by a numidian victory, which won't be until we declare war, hopefully.

Are you working on the last settler, Taliesin?

Oops. :blush: That's embarrassing. I forget my own roster order... :eek:
Sorry about that. I've been playing a fun game all evening, thinking Detlef was going next.
I'm right on it.

Okay, I've completed it.
We're nearing the point where we can really start to produce results-- I got us more established (as much I could).

Preflight-- everything fine.
1 1500BC Nothing.
IBT Utica builds archer. Start worker.
2 1475BC Warrior takes out barb camp in NW.
3 1450BC Begin irrigating plains W of Carthage.
IBT Utica builds worker and starts settler.
4 1425BC Nothing.
IBT Leptis Magna finishes barracks.
5 1400BC Nothing.
6 1375BC A worker joins Carthage to improve production.
7 1350BC Carthage riots :eek: -- I had juggled the spending ratio and forgot to reset it to a level proper for the increased population. Adjust to 1.8.1
IBT Another barbarian appears in the NW. A Roman warrior is exploring northward from the SW.
8 1325BC Move to deal with the barbarian.
IBT Utica finishes settler, begins Numidian Mercenary. The Vikings build the Colossus at Nidaros.
9 1300BC Moving warrior, settler to N.
10 1275BC More manoeuvring.

To end: The settler is on the spot I judged to be most productive for the temporary fifth city (see below). Our southern "defence" consists of a pair of warriors in the W and a warrior and an archer in the E; a Numidian Mercenary i being produced in Utica. The Pyramids will be built in 7 turns. Our score is 181 to Rome's 197.
I think it will be worth our while, once and if we vanquish Rome, to move at least one of our cities into its territory. There is an unbelievably strong site SW-SW of Rome: a city there would get 4 BGs, 2 cows, a wheat, and two wools, plus it's on a river. Granted, the corruption would be a little troublesome, but as they say, location, location. ;) I think the resources would make up for the distance. This would also provide us with a base to the south of our continent, which will make the Fortress Carthage much more feasible.
Over to you, Detlef. The save is here. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_BC1275_01.SAV)
We surge into a strong fifth place overall, and in fact a close third place at the current date. :clap: :rolleyes:

Next up: Detlef Richter - barb camp near the ivory, according to Mil Advisor!

That's probably why there's a Roman warrior near Theveste.

I'm not sure about putting the last city where the settler stands. It will make Theveste (radius 8) rank 3.

Even if it's temporary, why not up 2 squares NW to a radius 8 spot on the tundra? That keeps Theveste at rank 2. Also, it would have the ivory within reach and a bg, hill, and 3 grasslands (one above Leptis).

OK, got it. Some comments on the new settling position? For me it makes sence to settle there. It also reduces the possibility of barb camps from the N.

That looks good. I hadn't considered the rank factor.

Just in case you overlook it, the congratulations page is up for SGOTM3.
I note on the submissions graph that we're a turn slower than X-team and have the same score-- an excellent benchmark! :goodjob:

I'am verry sorry for this, but i need to skip this turn. My PTW crashes each time after the first turn. I don't know why. I hope i can fix it.

Ouch. I hate it when that happens-- if something goes wrong with my computer, I want to know why! I guess it's alamo's turn then.

Ok, I'll play. Sorry for the delay. I was painting a room today.

The crash sounds curious - did you see the mods ok before?

My turn - save is HERE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_BC0975_01.SAV)

1275BC(0) - Sci to 50 for a few gold more.

1250BC(1) - Leptis completes archer - start numidian. Archer does MP duty. Thevest completes barracks - start numidian. Road the BG, but we're not going to get a culture expand from Leptis. Settler to NWx2. SCi to 40% for +3g.

1225BC(2) - MM complete, start IW (14 turns/0gpt). Ceasar won't trade! Apparently no map trading w/MM. Switch Utica to galley.

1200BC(3) - Hippo founded - starts temple to get BG.

1175BC(4) - 3/4 warrior attacks barb camp -spawned another horse.

1150BC(5) - Uttica completes galley - starts numidian. Funky naval movement!

1100BC(6) - Carthage builds pyramids - starts barracks. Ceasar finally accepts IW=CB+73g (7 turns to go). The sole source of iron is indeed in the hills of Rome. Research Lit 60% for 17 turns.

1075BC(7) - Finally get barb camp cleared.

1050BC(8) - Leptis builds numidian - starts another. Archer moves south.

1025BC(9) - Carthage builds barracks - starts numidian. Uttica builds numidian - starts another. Warrior moves south.

1000BC(10) - Theveste builds numidian - starts another.

975BC(11) - Numidian complete in Carthage (forest chop). Rome starts Oracle! Once too far - stopping here.

Galley explored the East coast a bit - funky naval movement is on!

Hey

Been busy and for some reason thought this started later. Did i get replaced lol? If not I'd be willing to play and help out.

A summary of what is going would be greatly helpful if I could get in on this yet.

:) :nuke:

Hey, the prodigal player!

By all means, jump in and take a turn!

The short version: We wish we could migrate to Roman lands.

The long version:

We're playing the 5CC variant, meaning we can only have 5 cities at the end of any turn.

We would like to get a 20k culture victory in Carthage, but we have found ourselves isolated on a small continent with the Romans, who posess the sole iron source.

We have 5 cities and we just completed the Pyramids, but Ceasar has started the Oracle and has his iron hooked up.

We are ramping troop production to remove the Roman threat (hopefully) before they get too strong. Troops should be a mix of archers and numidian mercs.

Research is for Lit, but we should switch to Mysticism for Oracle. We just purchased IW.

Be sure to pre-build for the Oracle, as Ceasar has a head start. Sell the barracks if necessary.

Just thought I would eaves drop a little. Sark was in Europe again :lol: . GL with this one. Maybe you'll will do better than your last miserable failure. :p

Looking pretty good.
Is it wise to waste 5 turns of research to switch to Mysticism?

As the new member of the team, it feels quite strange to welcome in Sark in Mauer.

Welcome. I hope you enjoy the game. I hope that we will grab ourselves a laurel this time as well.

I am guessing this is now Sark turn.
Sark: Please post "I got it" if you are ready to play. otherwise I will take my turn.

Our current plans (Please correct me if I missunderstood) is to build up some defensive army, start a war against Rome and fortified our mercenaries on the mountains with some archers to shot at the valleys below.
After we get some more troops, we will launch an attack on thier capital, and settle there (on expance of the northen city).

You can go ahead, Mailman. We can play defensively, but at some point we'll have to take the iron.

I'm not sure about any re-settling. We would loose a productive city for a large but corrupt city? If we give up on 20k then a palace jump makes sense.

@Taliesin - yeah, we would waste 5 turns. I was asleep at the wheel when I chose Lit instead of Myst. I think the 5 turn loss is worth it because we would have a good chance at Oracle and we would have a backup of Gr Lib if we research Lit next.

OK - Got it.
I will play in about 5-6 hours, please pour your thought until then.

I havn't seen the save yet, but if we have enough defense, I might trigger a war (and therefore our GA)

I am not sure that changing our research is a good idea. for 20K we will want libraries and TGL soos as well. I do not understand the reason for the change. If someone please rationalize it ...

I'm with MailMan on this one. I'd rather stay with Literature and build the GL and libraries-- we can always trade the next tech (not Lit) for Mysticism and switch to the Oracle if it hasn't been built yet.
One thought that occurred to me is that since we're 5CC, the only things we can do to increase our score are those that increase population and happiness. So, these should be priorities almost as much as military production.

I completed my turn.

The save is HERE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_BC0710_01.SAV)

Turn log:

0) 975BC: move units toward the front. establish colony over ivory, we want it fast - it increase score . changed production in Hippo from Temple in 51T to galley on 21T. MM capital to get one more gold. We need MUCH more workers, they will road our way to the front. plans to create more workers after Utica build the current merc. create worker from the capital since its size is not important until we get Lit. set sliders to 2.7.1, Lit in 10.

1) 950BC MM Leptis to create merc 1 turn sooner. set sliders to 1.7.2

2) 900BC. oops Theveste riots. we need more road there to increase commerce. set 1 clown.

3,4,5) 875BC-825BC move units to front, create more mercenaries

6) 800 time to start a war: Precheck: rome has 9 cities, +2 techs (CB+HBR), 142 gold. "ask" for Mysticism and nothing. declare war.

IBT - Rome do not attack us.

7) 775BC move forces near Antium.

8) 750BC attack antium. we loose 2 archers and a merc but we destroy the city and start our GA

9) 730BC. we learn Lit. next Myst. Library in capital in 4. sent gally to sea.

IBT - our gally did not sink.

10) 710BC we now have 2 Elite wounded merc. Our galley finds the Persian. They are up myst, COL, HBR. and very wealthy (217 gold). we are up Lit Which I will not sell for now. In the next turn we should have enough money to establish embassy.


Points to discuss:
1. trade with Persian
2. war efforts.

More from me tomorrow

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70413&stc=1

Good going on taking Antium out. This will probably be a long struggle. Hopefully Rome hasn't built too many Legionaries yet, and the GA will provide an edge in producing mercenaries (and, certainly, the GL). I think the AI might also be reluctant to produce all-out military, too, so maybe our pigheaded assault will succeed by sheer force of numbers. It will be a slow war, which negates most of their home-turf advantage.
I'd hold off on trading with Persia for now. It might be a good idea to send Mysticism their way, if possible, for something, but we plan on cashing the GL anyway. As long as that galley finds someone else, we should be okay for tech.

Oh-- I've just remembered it's my turn. I'll play tomorrow night, probably. Please bear with the delay.

Few thoughts:

- After myst we should cut off research. both to slow down tech pace, and since we will get all techs from TGL.
- The GA is timed perfectly to take the TGL.
- There is no importance in taking more cities from the Romans. One city is beneficial since it allow for a bargains in the peace deal. We should attack a second city only if we have great chances of success.
- I do not think we should trade with the Persian. we do not need the techs for now and I do not want to give them Lit. That will give them a shot at TGL.

Sorry, skip me for the next 3 days. I have to buy a new PTW-CD.

- There is no importance in taking more cities from the Romans. One city is beneficial since it allow for a bargains in the peace deal. We should attack a second city only if we have great chances of success.


I thought the point of war with Rome was to take them out now (or at least minimise them). Given that they have iron and we don't, isn't it rather dangerous to let them live? I think that if it seems possible, we should do everything we can to eliminate them right now (hopefully before they make contact elsewhere and word gets out of our hostility).
I agree with your other points, but at the risk of giving up my chance at the SGOTM4 Yes-man Award won't waste time enumerating them.

It would be great if we can eliminate Rome on our first try. But as I wrote, we should proceed only if we have confidence in our success.

Our war with them has another important goal: Great Leaders. If we wipe them all out it whould be hard to fight wars off shore.

I would be happy if out first war whould cripple them.
Killing them off is still a better option, but only if it is done with low losses ratio (espicailly elite units).

Edit: Regarding reputation. I do not think it is a problem. I believe we are surrounded by ocean, since the AI don't use suicide galleys, Rome will not be connected until magnetism. Diplo win can be achieved even with a very bad reputation, as long as you form the right alliances and gifts a lot the turn before the vote.

Who knew MailMan would be the big warmonger? :lol:

I wanted Myst for the Oracle and its culture, but we're set for TGL now.

I say send the elite numids to pillage the iron!

@detlef - Check your PM about that disk.

@Sark - jump in any time.

First time somebody calls me a warmonger.

I think that my gameplay depends on the game and its goals.

In this game we decided on 20K win.
For that we need:
1. Great leaders. to create those wonderful wonders (If there is no one avaliable, we should build an ermy to allow heroic Epic)
2. Slow down tech pace. to avoid Wonders cascade.
3. Focus on the 20K city:
- get it to size 12 ASAP.
- improve all the workable tiles.
- build nothing but culture buildings.

The first two point dictate warmongering type of gameplay.
Later on we should created phony wars on the remote continents to slow down tech pace.
Note that wars without casulties and breaking deals do not hurt long term relationships and possible diplo win.

Side note: Our elite merc. will need twice as many victories to generate leaders since they mostly will be used for defence.

Our war with them has another important goal: Great Leaders. If we wipe them all out it whould be hard to fight wars off shore.
Good point.
I say send the elite numids to pillage the iron!
Another good point.
Later on we should created phony wars on the remote continents to slow down tech pace.
An excellent point, and something that I greatly enjoy doing.
Who knew MailMan would be the big warmonger?
Yikes, Detlef, he's usurping your role! (Not only that, but I'm trying to steal your Yes-Man award, by the looks of things. :crazyeye: :lol: )

It looks like I won't have time to play until tomorrow night. :( (Sark, if you're watching, feel free to pick it up, as long as you post a got-it before about 8:30 EST on Tuesday). Sorry about that. You know how it is. I've had an eighteen-hour day already, and it's only Monday. :scan: Much longer, and that's how blank and glazed my eyes will be...
Edit: looks like tomorrow morning (I'll post it at about 9:30 EST).

OK, i'am back and ready to rumble.

For the award, it's no problem for me. We have not yet finished, so i have enough time to catch it back. ;)

Finished. A decent set of results: everything is looking quite good (except, of course, the Roman legionary that finally showed... :eek: ). The save is here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_BC0510_01.SAV).

Preflight: A worker joins Carthage.
IBT Entremont finishes Oracle. Roman galley appears near Pompeii.
1 690BC Another worker joins Carthage to boost pop to 12. Workers begin to improve Leptis Magna. Kill Roman archer.
IBT Carthage finishes library, begins GL (16 turns!).
2 670BC Troops moving to front.
IBT Persepolis builds Great Lighthouse.
3 650BC Kill two Roman archers. Begin improving Theveste- now it's growing. Exploring east, I find coast. Persia knows Philosophy.
4 630BC In position to take Pompeii. Exploring west, I find coast. I trim science spending for a few extra gold-- Myst still in 1.
IBT We learn Mysticism and begin Polytheism.
5 610BC Destroy Pompeii with a loss of 2 Numidians (including an elite) and gain a worker. Kill Roman archer and warrior. Western galley discovers Germany; they know Mathematics and HBR. They want Map Making, but I don't trade.
IBT Kill Roman archer-- Numidian promoted to elite.
6 590BC Crank Polytheism up 2.6.2-- finished in 8 turns. I decided to do this because no AI knows it as far as we know, and it leads directly to Hanging Gardens.
IBT Roman archer near Pisae.
7 570BC
8 550BC
9 530BC Nothing of note for past 40 years...
10 510BC Kill Roman archer. Spot Legionary west of Rome!! :cry: Contact Babylon, south of Germany. They know same techs as Persia.

To sum up:
Polytheism in 3 turns.
GL in 8 turns.
Roman settler is near ruin of Pompeii. I tried to kill its spearman, but no dice.
Eastern galley is still exploring. It has found no AI, only uninhabited (but quite juicy) islands.
The war is going as well as can be expected. We must pillage Iron ASAP!! There is a force on that eastern wool that should be sufficient to make it through the jungle to the iron hill, and maybe even take Rome out. (6 Numid, 2 elite; 1 archer, plus a steady stream moving southward from core.)

Ok, detlef, take a turn. A MGL would be nice about now for the Oracle.

Alamo-- It would be, but Entremont finished the Oracle in 710 BC (see my turnlog).
Detlef-- ATTACK!!! :aargh: :ar15: :aargh:

The game is looking good:
None of the other known civ know Lit, So we have a VERY good shot at TGL.
After that we will get the missing techs, so we will be even on tech.
Our research path should be: finish poly, monarchy, halt research.
We want to bet the first to monarchy to have a good shot on the HG (currently there is no pre-build that we can use).

Our attack force also looks well.
I suggest attcking from both sides of the lake. The main perpose is to hold off all their forces and do not let any legion come near our cities.
Currently Rome will give us 3 cities for peace. If we feel insecure or already got the ML, I suggest peace and than destroy those cities (It is allowed in the relaxed 5CC we are playing). That will greatly cripple them for our next assult.

Be aware that since the orcale is finished that means their capital can produce legions in full strength.

Have fun fighting

It would be great if we can eliminate Rome on our first try. But as I wrote, we should proceed only if we have confidence in our success.

Our war with them has another important goal: Great Leaders. If we wipe them all out it whould be hard to fight wars off shore.

I would be happy if out first war whould cripple them.
Killing them off is still a better option, but only if it is done with low losses ratio (espicailly elite units).


Thinking more about this again, there is a slight problem with allowing Rome to remain, i.e. the existence of iron only in their territory. Either we have to relocate a city to the heart of Rome soon, which alamo counsels against, or we have to wipe Rome out entirely, which MailMan counsels against (I agree more with MailMan on this one, at least in principle). We can have that discussion more fully when we come to making this decision, but we can't let Rome live and not relocate a city-- the iron will be impossible to hold (unless we are in perpetual war with Rome).

Got it. Let's see what we can do.

My turns:

Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_BC0330_01.SAV)

490BC: nothing

470: Ottomans: horseback riding + mathematics <-> map making

450: poly -> philo

430: i cut iron and fortify the hill

410: nothing

390: nothing

370: philo -> currency

350: GL finished next catapult (nothing else make sence)

330: end of GA ; got code of law from GL

My turns:

470: Ottomans: horseback riding + mathematics <-> map making

450: poly -> philo

370: philo -> currency

330: end of GA ; got code of law from GL

Does this mean that you traded Map Making to the Ottomans? :confused:

Good work cutting the iron-- I expected it to take longer to get in there.
I guess it's alamo's turn now, unless Sark turns up.
GL!!! :lol: :goodjob: :lol:

EDIT: We've fallen behind XTeam on score. :eek:

Okay, I've looked at the save, and there are a couple of things we should discuss.
1) We need to readjust from the GA-- cities are rioting and we're losing gold. This won't take much effort-- alamo can do this without difficulty.
2) Except for Germany, all the AI are quite wealthy. What should our trading policy be?
3) I think we should research Monarchy instead of Currency. It is not essential that we be the first to move to the MA-- the GL will get us there in good time. We'll also get Monotheism from Babylon and Germany or the Ottomans, which is good. Monarchy lets us build the Gardens, which is a wonder we can easily grab, plus we'll have a monopoly on a hot commodity, should we decide to trade. I'm thinking we can let the AI research Republic for us, but maybe our desire to switch to Republic outweighs our desire for a tech lead in the MA. That's something we need to decide.
4) War with Rome. We need more troops on that hill-- three Numidians are not going to hold it for very long. I'm thinking we want to raze Rome in this war, as a minimum goal; we have enough military and production to do this, it's just a matter of gathering our troops and artillery and co-ordinating an assault. Should we stop at Rome? Should we occupy it instead of razing it, and abandon one of our northern cities? This might be the only way to hold the iron in the short term.
5) Score. As noted above, we're falling behind Xteam (by how much, we don't know, because of the new restrictions on the score graph). I realise it may not be realistic to try to beat them, but I feel they're a good benchmark to try to meet. If we keep pace with them, then we have a shot at winning, maybe.
6) Embassies? We only have one with Rome.
7) Preferred government for the medium-term? Republic would probably be optimal, but in the short term I suspect Monarchy might be necessary because of the perpetual on/off war we're planning with Rome (and our need for a gigantic unit:city ratio). In fact, we might go from Monarchy to Democracy. We'll see how long it takes to get our security issue under control. I don't think we have much to fear other than Rome for a while, given our isolation from other continents.
8) How long will we let Rome live? The advantage of having a potential MGL factory at our disposal is appealing, but for it to be of use would require a large enough Rome that we would always have to worry about backstabs and maintain a strong defence. (Maybe that's a good thing-- Rome can be our military conscience, so to speak.)

To considerably one-up Mauer, everyone should trumpet their opinions on all these topics.
4 players x 8 questions x 2 cents = 64 cents!! :eek: (80 cents if Sark chimes in!)

I think we're reaching a crucial point where we'll have to make more decisions and more important decisions then before-- regarding trade, government, foreign relations, war, tech research, and all that. So, I think we have to discuss things a little more than we have been doing (not to throw aspersion on what we've been doing so far, I'm just saying this phase will require more debate and input).

Delurk>
To considerably one-up Mauer, everyone should trumpet their opinions on all these topics.
4 players x 8 questions x 2 cents = 64 cents!! :eek: (80 cents if Sark chimes in!)
:lol:
First of all, Lord Mauer shall never be trumped! Lest the Dutchess of Mauer become faint towardeth her Sire.

BTW you are in Canada, and we all know that pesos are worth more than your exchange :p . Yes, I am still lurking and am preparing for bestowing the honor of team babbler, instead of me, to Taliesin! ;)
<lurk

Good points, Taliesin. I'll switch to Monarchy, but refrain from trading. Embassies are a good idea, as are lux trades when possible.

GW finished next turn! I had a couple elite wins, but no luck. Rather bad RNG, in fact. Iron hill is secure.

Save is HERE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_BC0030_01.SAV)

330BC(0) - Managed mood, switched Carthage to Numid and Theveste to temple (need more food), Hippo to temple (need ivory) in border. Sent troops into battle - need more elites! Switch research to Monarchy.

IBT: Elite legion kills numidian on iron hill. Roman galley goes for the unprotected cities. Spot Scandinavian galley.

290BC(1) - Lost numid vs archer.

IBT: Another elite legion kills another numid - wtf? Persia settles between lamb hills! Did someone trade wmaps?

270BC(2) - Get elite numid vs archer. 5 numids on iron hill now.

IBT: Roman galley approaches Leptis. Construction via TGL.

230BC(3) - Switch Carthage to GW.

IBT: Archer lands N of Leptis.

210BC(4) - Warrior dies vs archer, next one wins. Fortify numid stack against elite legion.

IBT: Elite legion wins, again :mad: Roman archers move through Persian territory.

190BC(5) - Elite numid kills redline legion. Theveste completes temple, starts numid. Numid looses badly vs archer.

IBT: Roman archers move back. Loose galley island-hopping.

150BC(6) - Moving troops. Boost lux for GW in 7.

IBT: Archer sneaks out of Persian territory to kill redline numid - they have RoP!

130BC(7) - Elite numid kills archer. Roman settler on the move.

IBT: Elite numid survives one archer, but falls to the next. Archers approach Theveste.

110BC(8) - Warrior takes archer - gets promo.

90BC(9) - Discover the Celts. Move to block Roman archers.

IBT: Lutetia founded.

30BC(10) - Move troops. Great Wall complete next turn!

A good set of turns-- too bad the RNG isn't co-operating. I'll have a look at the save tomorrow and post; hopefully, our friends in Europe (MailMan, are you in Europe? It seems that way from most of your post times...) will look at it by then as well, and we can all chime in with our assorted currencies.

Persia settles between lamb hills! Did someone trade wmaps?
Not I. I faithfully pursued a strict isolationist policy.

BTW you are in Canada, and we all know that pesos are worth more than your exchange
I'll have you know our dollar is cruising at an 11-year high, thank you very much!
:D

Yes, I am still lurking and am preparing for bestowing the honor of team babbler, instead of me, to Taliesin!
Ah yes, but unofficial team members, popular and missed though they may be, cannot vote or nominate in procedural matters. (An excellent article of our team's Constitution-- I just made it up!) :mischief:

I'm sorry, I'm forgetting myself. I am ecstatic to accept any award from Pompous Warlord Mauer! (especially since I deserve this one) :)
I'm sure we can find a way around the Constitution... ;)

I got the save and will play next.

I will play in about 6 hours or so, so there is still time to through in an advise.

From looking at the save I noticed the following:
1. alamo had a realy bad RNG

2. Rome is noe in anarchy. They know Republic. I thing they will not hold republic for much longer due to WW. We will probably learn republic next turn since persia know it as well.

3. We currntly have 28 units (18 merc, 4 warriors, 4 workers, 1 cat, 1 galley) We are avarage against Rome.

7) Preferred government for the medium-term?

I suggest going for monarchy instead of republic:
In republic we will pay 28gpt against 16gpt in monarchy.
In republic we will need to boost our lux slide at least an extra 10% (if nor 20%) to overcome the lack of military police.
We will soon be overcome by the WW.

MailMan, are you in Europe? It seems that way from most of your post times...)
Close enough, good guess though. I am from Israel.

2) Except for Germany, all the AI are quite wealthy. What should our trading policy be?

I think I will trade our techs with persia. They have 452g, and our techs are already known be several other civs (ott, bab, greece). Since those civs do not know republic, I am guessing they are going to trade next turn. I want to beat them to that gold. (if we had Embassies I would have know who know who).

6) Embassies? We only have one with Rome.

From the money I will get from the trade I am going to build those Embassies - but leace anough gold to go full speed to monarchy (by MM carth I can save in a turn for monarchy, get extra 5g and still get the walls.)

I agree with monarchy, it seem to be the best for us. Maybe we can switch to demo later on.
We should capture and hold Rome to save the iron. Weeken the romans to 1 city down south and build a barrikade to hold the corridor between Rome and the Mountains.

I agree with monarchy, it seem to be the best for us. Maybe we can switch to demo later on.
We should capture and hold Rome to save the iron. Weeken the romans to 1 city down south and build a barrikade to hold the corridor between Rome and the Mountains.

That government path is pretty much what I think we should take: Monarchy until Democracy is feasible.
We may want to leave Rome two or three cities so that we can get MGLs more easily. The other problem is that Persia has settled, so a barricade will protect us from Rome but won't give us control over the continent.

I think I will trade our techs with persia. They have 452g, and our techs are already known be several other civs (ott, bab, greece). Since those civs do not know republic, I am guessing they are going to trade next turn. I want to beat them to that gold. (if we had Embassies I would have know who know who).
Good plan. I wasn't sure how much we should trade, because we want the tech rate slow, but in a case like this there isn't much justification for not trading.

It would be good to build a wall in Theveste.

We'll have Monarchy soon, so Carthage will be building another wonder.

It will be a defensive war for awhile. Once the archer rush is beat back and there are enough troops to take Lutetia then maybe an assault on Rome would work.

It may be necessary to keep Rome, since we have no horses and our chances of getting saltpeter are not good.

First the SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_AD0190_01.SAV)

Turn log:
0) trade ploy for 365g from persian.
fix sliders and MM to get monarchy in 3 instead of 5.
cat remove 1 bar from an archer.

IBT)
rome archer 3/3 vs merc 4/4 --> merc 1/4. will move merc ant the warrior to heal on the mountain.
persia land anouther settler on our door step.
I think after rome we should fight them.
Carthage build: THE GREAT WALL. next colosseum (as a pre-build for HG)

1) near Theveste:
warrior 3/3 vs archer 3/3 --> warrior 3/4
merc 4/4 vs archer 3/3 --> merc 4/4
establise embassies at persian, ottomans, babs and germany.
adjust sliders for more production at the capital. monarchy is still in 3.

IBT) India galley approches.
Tyre (Persia) is founded next to us.



2) - 10AD. move around
cat vs spear 3/3 on mountain --> spear 3/3

3) 30AD
cat vs spear 3/3 on plain --> spear 2/3
perc 4/4 vs spear 2/3 --> merc 4/4
notice that the greece is ar war with ott.

IBT learn monarchy. revlote for 4 turns.

4) 50AD cat vs 4/4 archer --> 3/4 archer
4/4 warrior vs 3/4 archer --> 1/4 archer
3/3 warrior vs 1/4 archer --> 2/5 archer
4/4 merc vs 2/5 archer --> 4/4 merc
4/4 warrior vs 4/4 archer --> 2/4 archer.
4/4 merc vs 3/3 archer on grassland! --> 4/4 archer. I am begining to feel my RNG is agains me.

5) 70AD moves.

IBT - Rome wanted to talk.

6) 90AD. moves

IBT Rome move 7 archer near Thevest. they will attack our heavily fortified city next.

7) 110AD prepare to defend.

IBT - we fend off rome attck easily without and lost units. one of our merc. got promoted and won anouther 3 fight as elite. no MLG. The last archer pillaged.

Monarchy founded
India land settler next to our Ivory. I will attack them to keep the ivory.


7) 130AD declare war and attack india warrior gaurding settler
merc 4/4 vs warrior 3/3 --> merc 3/4 + 2 slaves.
cat vs 4/4 archer --> 3/4 archer
4/5 merc vs 3/3 archer --> 3/5 merc. no MGL
4/4 merc vs 3/4 archer --> 2/5 merc.
4/4 merc vs 3/3 archer --> 2/4 archer.

HG in 14

8) 150AD.
cat vs 3/3 spear --> 2/3 spear
4/4 merc vs 2/3 spear --> 3/4 merc
set production at Theveste to catapults. we need many of those.
HG in 13, nobody know monarchy yet, and there is nothing to cascade from. I thibk HG is in our pockets.

IBT Persia learned currency.

9) 170AD. moves

10) 190AD. move to setup attack over Luetia with 6 merc.

Summery:
20K: we are on the right path: The Great Wall completed. Hanging Gardens are looking good in 11 turns.
War: we are now at war with both Rome and the Indians. I am guessing we can get peace with the indians in few turns.
Our war with Rome is in standoff. I focused mainly on defence. It is time to go onto offence.
Great leader. 4 elite wins (3 defnesice, 1 offensive) with no great leader. We now have 3 elite merc.
Domestics: We are now in monarchy, our capital produce 19 shields (and 1 currupted) We have 3 temples and the last two are being built as we speak.

Looks decent-- status quo, I guess. Terrible RNG, though.
I guess I'm up. I'll try to play tonight.
I had a thought regarding our problem with occupying the lower half of the continent, and the fact that any city down there will be corrupt. The thought turned into a hunch, and I tested the hunch and found it to be correct:

We CAN build a Forbidden Palace, once we have a secure enough continent and some surplus resources (and MGL would be handy too). Since we have a limit of 5 cities at the end of the turn, we can settle an extra three cities, including the site of choice to our south, and immediately begin construction of the FP at the chosen site (if we have an MGL, we could use it to rush here). Once we've started the FP, we can abandon three cities to meet the limit for the end of the turn, and the FP will still build and operate (it works, I tested it with the Editor). The only question is if this constitutes an exploit, or just a shrewd use of resources. :hmm:

I plan to sell Republic to the Ottomans: they're the only advanced civ that doesn't know it, and better we get their 93 gold than Persia or Rome gets it.

Wow - that's some bad RNG rolls. Hopefully that means good karma later.

That FP idea is fantastic! We might actually want to keep a couple of cities near the FP if we can pull it off. How many settlers are needed?

We'd need three settlers. One of them would found a lasting city south of Rome, and the other two would be written off as waste (there wouldn't be time to rebuild the settler to abandon). Then, we'd abandon our Arctic city. As you say, we could also abandon one of our other cities and place it to the south, maybe on that lake to ensure a contiguous territory. It isn't really feasible until we've cut Rome down considerably, because a) the settler-building would drain our military and b) we couldn't build on the optimal site.
Mad-bax hasn't responded to my PM about the FP. I don't see how it would be an exploit, but I'd rather keep our noses clean, just in case.

I think my RNG stopped mis-behaving after I complained about it.
After my 4th turn were I lost too many units to the RNG and I was in anarchy so I could not build any new units, I went into defensive mode.
Rome lost around 6 archers attacking fortified merc in a city on the hills with walls (thanks to TGW). I lost only one unit afterward attacking an archer.
My RNG still didn't give me any leaders.

I plan to sell Republic to the Ottomans: they're the only advanced civ that doesn't know it, and better we get their 93 gold than Persia or Rome gets it.
I do not think 93g is worth it. we should keep the Ottomans as weak as possible.

We're good to build the FP, fellows. mad-bax says he expects most of the teams to do it. We can also use it for Wall Street, Battlefield Medicine, extra army, etc.

It might be a bit if I play at all, I had to uninstall Civ3 to free up some space. I have to get the original Civ3 disk back from a friend before I can even play vanilla civ unfortunately. >.<

Ouch-- that's too bad. Okay, well, let us know when you can jump in.

I'll play today sometime. I will not sell to the Ottomans, and hopefully our RNG will improve for my giant assault on Rome...
Well, maybe not giant, but I'll do my best. :)

Here's the turnlog. Nobody here will be happy with it-- we're basically stagnating in our war. I went on the offensive against Rome with a stack of Numidians, but I barely made a dent in Rome's defence. The next assault should definitely include some catapults. We have two in Theveste, but some more would be handy.
IBT Alex demands Monarchy. I turn it down, he issues a DoW.
1 210AD I reposition the front. I conquer Lutetia without losing a Numid-- one becomes 2/4. There is nothing to sell, so I abandon it. Send Numids southward.
2 230AD Kill archer (Numid to 2/4).
IBT Roman 4/4 archer kills 2/4 Numid. Leptis finishes temple, begins aqueduct.
3 250AD Lose 2/4 Numidian to archer (finishes at 4/4). 8 Numidians are massed NW of Rome. A 3/4 remains guarding the iron.
IBT Babylon demands Monarchy. I refuse, with no consequence.
4 260AD Vet Num kills archer, promotes to 4/5. Elite Num falls to 3/3 archer on grassland! :eek: The archer is 1/3, so I finish him with a 4/4. I attack Rome, expending 4 Numids to damage both defending Legionaries to 3/4 and 4/5. This is ridiculous, and we need to cover the hill, so I move the remaining Numids, including the Elite, back to the hill.
IBT Persia is moving a settler toward the ruins of Lutetia. I lose a 4/4 Num to a 4/4 archer, which falls to 3/4.
5 270AD Lose 5/5 Numid on attack to 4/4 archer (leaves at 2/5). Finish him with 4/5 Num. No injury, but no GL, either. Kill archer with Num, going to 3/4.
Fortify workers in Leptis and Uttica. These will join the cities as soon the aqueducts finish.
IBT Roman archer lands NW of Theveste, and Roman settlers are moving around east of Rome.
6 280AD I trade Polytheism to India for peace and 6g (all they have).
IBT Persia founds Sardis where Lutetia used to be.
7 290AD 2 settlers appear east of Rome. a 4/5 Num loses on attack to 3/3 archer, which ends up 4/4. I kill him with a 3/4 Num, which remains uninjured.
IBT 4/4 archer kills 3/4 Num, promotes to 3/5. Learn Currency from Ottomans and Persia. I start Mono, but still at 0 research.
8 300AD Persia knows Monotheism, the Ottomans know Engineering. Babylon seems not to be scientific. Kill Roman archer near Theveste, leaving 3/4 Num.
IBT Roman archers are seen moving north, east of Rome.
9 310AD I trade Currency to Greece for peace and 2g.
IBT Learn Engineering-- that was Greece's tech.
10 320AD-- nothing of note.

We don't have enough of an army to do much against Rome other than defend and hold the iron. I'm building the aqueducts to improve our score, and also starting marketplaces. One of Theveste's hills can be mined and roaded, and the southwestern mountain in that city should be roaded to allow catapults to shoot at Roman archers. Some workers are moving toward that area. The Hanging Gardens is finished in 1 turn. When aqueducts are built, those surplus workers fortified in the northern cities can join to pump the population up.

The save is here. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_AD0320_01.SAV) We're finally tied with X-team again, but 270 years more advanced. We need to pull up our socks if we want the Greens.

I guess we can start our spoiler post. I don't mind doing that. I'll post a draft about noon or so tomorrow (EST).

Troops refreshed - 8 archers, 26 numids. Brief wars with Persians and Vikings.

I cleared out 2 Persian and 1 Roman towns, but they keep coming back like energizer settlers.

We will be in a wonder race soon, so we need to take Rome (in exchange for Hippo?)

There should be enough troops to take Rome soon. Just plan to let the archers approach Carthage while the strike force moves in.

Save is HERE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_AD0460_01.SAV)

320AD(0) - Switch Theveste to archer. We need to take Rome badly now. HG complete next turn, so Carthage can pump out some troops. Aquaducts nearly done, too.

340AD(1) - Move troops, start numid in

IBT: Vikings demand Lit, make DoW. They're too far away for now. Roman archers moving towards Carthage.

350AD(2) - Uttica completes aquaduct, starts numidian. Hippo completes numid, starts another. Joined workers.

IBT: Roman galley going up W coast again.

360AD(3) - Disbanded galley - we have all contacts so not worth the upkeep.

IBT: Persia demands Lit, makes DoW. Time to clear them out!

390AD(4) - Kill 2 archers w/archers. Destroy Sardis.

IBT: Roman settler heads for the clearing.

400AD(5) - Kill spearman.

410AD(6) - Kill archer.

IBT: Galley deposits Roman settler near ivory!

420AD(7) - Numid kills spearman and collects 2 slaves. Loose archer to warrior.

IBT: Rome settles Byzantium next to 2 numids.

430AD(8) - Destroy Tyre. Persians down to 1 town on our continent. Make peace for +38g. Make peace with Vikings for free. Destroy Byzantium.

IBT: Persian and Roman settlers rush to the clearing, again.

440AD(9) - Regroup. Bombard archers.

450AD(10) - Move troops. Oops - 1 turn too far.

Who is next? can Detlef or Sark play?
I will be able to play in about 5 hours, so if you want to take a turn, please post got it until then.

alamo: I do not see it in your post, but I am guessing we are the first to the HG.

Carthage should build a Coliseum, shouldn't it? Unless we absolutely need the force.
It seems alamo had some better luck than the rest of us-- looking not-too-bad.

Yeah, we got HG :goodjob:

I should've built a Coloseum - my bad :(

It is as good as the Great Wall, culture-wise. The next player could hurry one for 404g.

We have 32 culture/turn, with total of 1774. Only 536 turns at this rate (including coloseum)!

I got it....

First, the SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_AD0560_01.SAV).

Turn Log:

0) rush colosseum in our capital.
establish embassies with everybody.
perisa is ahead in tech they have monotheism and Feudalism. they are building sun tzu in their capital.
change production in Theveste to catapult

cat vs archer 3/3 --> archer 2/3
cat vs archer 3/3 --> archer 3/3
archer 4/4 vs archer 3/3 --> (loss) archer 1/3
archer 4/4 vs archer 2/3 --> (win) archer 3/4
archer 4/4 vs archer 3/3 --> (loss) archer 3/3
archer 4/4 vs archer 1/3 --> (win) archer 1/4
archer 4/4 vs archer 3/3 --> (win) archer 2/4

MM Utice for extra food. merc still in 1.

1) optimize utica and Leptis to produce merc in 2 (15 good Shields), capital to produce archer in 1 (20 good Shields) and hippo to compete archer in 2 (10 good shields) hippo currently losing food.

cat vs legion 3/3 --> legion 3/3
cat vs legion 3/3 --> legion 2/3

2) 480AD
cat vs archer 3/3 --> archer 2/3
cat vs archer 3/3 --> archer 2/3
cat vs archer 2/3 --> archer 1/3
archer 4/4 vs archer 2/3 --> (win) archer 3/4
archer 4/4 vs archer 1/3 --> (win) archer 4/4

our forces now: 29 merc 7 archers, 3 cat, 1 warrior, 1 native worker.

IBT - rome wanted to talk.
Bab learn feudalism. we will learn it next turn.

3) change capital to merc as prebuild to sun tzu.
cat vs legion 3/3 --> legion 2/3
cat vs legion 2/3 --> legion 1/3
cat vs archer 3/3 --> archer 2/3
archer 4/4 vs archer 3/3 --> (win) archer 3/4
archer 4/4 vs legion 1/3 --> (win) archer 1/4
merc 4/4 vs archer 2/3 --> (win) merc 4/4. gained two slaves.

I see no other rome forces around.

IBT - we learn feudalism.

4) change capital for sun tzu. It is probably a prebuild for something with more culture.

cat vs archer 3/3 --> archer 2/3
cat vs archer 3/3 --> archer 2/3
cat vs archer 3/3 --> archer 2/3
cat vs archer 2/3 --> archer 1/3
archer 4/4 vs archer 2/3 --> (win) archer 2/4
archer 4/4 vs archer 2/3 --> (win) archer 4/4
warrior 4/4 vs archer 1/3 --> (loss) archer 1/3
archer 3/4 vs archer 1/3 --> (win) archer 3/4.

so for 11 wins WITHOUT any promotion. Not that I am complaining about the wins but were are those promotions.

5) I decided that we have enough force to attack rome.
I buy RoP with the persian for Monarchy. As a bonus I get 43gpt and 75 gold.
Our attack force consist of 22 units: 4 cat, 4 archers, 16 merc.
They will join our 5 merc on the hill, and there are more forces on the way.
unfortunately there aren't good roads in persian soil, so it will be a long journey. The next player will handle the attack.

6) move forces toward rome.
MM Theveste to produce merc in 2 (15 good shields).

7) 530 AD. move forces toward rome.

8) move forces toward rome. I ignore passing rome forces, they will encounter our defence on the mountains.

9)
archer 4/4 vs archer 3/3 --> (win) archer 2/4

10) 560AD All forces are now in position to attack Rome on the next turn.
I moved some forces from the iron hill in order not to attack over the river.
I joined are last remaining native worker to Thevese and set it to produce cat in 1 turn (20 good shields) the city currently loss food.

summery:
I think I done quite well this turns.
Our forces grew rapidly due to correct MM of the cities to not waste any shields.
Another good issue is my used tactics:
- I blockaded all the mountains. after the first turn I did not allow any roman troops to be on the mountain (except once that I did not enough forces near by, but the next turn they moved to the grassland).
- I increased our catapults number, along with using all of them each turn.
- I had also nice roles from the RNG, but it did not give me ANY elite unit.

We now have 30 units next to Rome (4 of them are catapults, the other 26 has attack value of 2).
I believe this is overkill to take rome (Rome is on grassland, size 6, no walls and most of the attack force is not crossing the river, but I will let the next player handle this. (I thought I might steal a turn to attack rome myself...).

Note to the next player. I moved some units on this turn, please wait until next turn to attack Rome.

Edit: After taking Rome, I suggest a peace deal, We will probably get all or most of there cities. The attack on rome will not produce a GL, since we have only one elite unit near by.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70935&stc=1

Shall I play, or should we wait to see if Detlef is going to?

A funny thing I noticed is that Rome stayed in Republic.
AFAIK the AI has tendency to flip-flop goverments. The WW should have been quite awful due to the long war and heavy casualties.

After we leave the roman in peace with 1/2 cities I am not sure what should we do.
Should we build more army?
Should we improve our infrastructure?
Should we occupy Rome? The city may be very corrupted, and the land route that should supply our capital with iron passes through Persian soil.

I suggest a recon on the foreign cities that build Sun Tzu to see how much turns they have left until completion.

Got it. We should also delete Persian citys from our ile and then save the corridor with units on the coast. Infrastructur and culture buildings should also be a goal.

Notice!!! We have RoP with the Persian, they also pay us 43gpt. do NOT break the deal with them, wait until it run out.
The Persian should be easy to dispatch. AI can not handle remote invasions well.

Ahh, i missed that deal. I have to read carefully.

Once Persia is out of there, we could probably block off the area around the lake with troops to prevent anybody settling there.
Rome isn't the ideal place for a city: 1SW, or 2SW, are both better sites. However, if we don't have a way to protect the iron other than having it within Rome's cultural boundaries, we probably have to leave Rome where it is.

I agree with 1 SW. We will have 2 cows + iron + river + wheat + 3 hills + luxury right out of our door step.
We can capture Rome, rush a settler and occupy the SW post after disbanding rome. disbanding rome will also give us a slave or two.

Edit: Taliesin: How is the spoiler writing going? I want to read what the other teams did, and we need to post our spoiler first.

Team alamo-- the Team-formerly-known-as-Mauer-- makes their triumphant return to the land of SGOTM, plagued by computer difficulties but determined nevertheless.

After a stern lecture on the posting rules and a welcome to MailMan, our newest member, we promptly got down to business, and spent four productive days trying to decide where to settle. After this long period of argument, carried on between those who wanted to settle on the spot and those who wanted to move SE, ended in a two-on-two deadlock, our leader made an executive decision and settled right on the spot. As it turned out, an excellent decision.

We decided right off the bat to try for 20k cultural victory, with diplomatic as a backup. Ceremonial Burial was an important tech to get, obviously, but after evaluating the techs known by other civs, we decided that that Wheel would be a better choice to start with, since nobody knew it. Exploring with a warrior, we were disgusted by all the mountains to the south, and promptly abandoned ideas of an RCP.

We first encountered Rome in 3450 BC, and agreed to make the best out of a rotten terrain by maintaining a guerilla strike-and-retreat line across the southern mountain range. Our next fierce debate concerned the optimal placement of our cities, complicated by the fact that half our team was missing the graphics installation that lets one see sheep and oysters. We decided that we would like to settle south to beat Rome to the good spots, but that the best sites were too far to the south.

Northern warrior discovers some ivory. (Which is pretty weird-- one doesn't usually find elephants living in arctic forests, but oh well... maybe they're mastodons or something.)

Finally, our first settler founds Utica in 2950 BC on the coastal BG NE of Carthage. Upon completing the wheel, we are very disappointed by the complete lack of horses, but we press on undeterred. We argue some more about the placement of cities, and briefly toy with a clever palace jump to produce a perfect RCP on the northern segment of the continent. It gets shot down in open debate.

In 2630 BC, we are fortunate to pop Pottery from a goody hut. :D We found Leptis Magna NW of Carthage in 2270 BC, then start the Pyramids in Carthage in 2070. Theveste is founded in 1650 on the southern slopes. By this point, Rome has occupied the rich terrain south of the mountains, and will probably come looking for territory soon. We redouble our military efforts.

Worried about Rome, we begin plotting our strategy. We don't have iron working yet, but we suspect that the hill next to Rome has iron because there is a road on it. We don't like to trigger a despotic GA, but we realise that our Numidian Mercenaries are likely the only hope we have to overcome Roman legions. This feeling intensifies in 1100, when we trade with Rome for Iron Working and discover that not only were we correct about the hill next to Rome, but that we don't even have any iron at all. :eek: It is also in this turn that we finish the Pyramids. We start producing Mercenaries at full tilt and occupying the mountainous border with Rome.

In 800 BC, we decide we've had enough of Caesar's smug missives and his self-satisfied, smarmy smirk, and gently request that he provide us with his knowledge of Mysticism. He refuses, so our noble, valiant legions of hired soldiers troop off to battle. They have twice as many cities as we do, but this war had to happen eventually, and we won't have as good a chance at military parity until we build cavalry ahead of them, so now is the best time. In 750, we sack Antium and start our Golden Age.

In 710 an intrepid galley meets the wealthy and advanced nation of *CENSORED*. We try to prevent contact between Rome and outside civs, but this doesn't last very long.

With the arrogance of those who are just marching off to war and will be back by Christmas (or the feast of Baal, or whatever Carthaginians celebrate), we decide that our objective is either to eliminate Rome or to reduce them to a couple of cities we can use as fodder for MGLs. As a compromise, we settle for occupying and pillaging their iron until we can prevail. In 610 we burn Antium to the ground. Over the next century, we contact *CENSORED* and *CENSORED*; we decide to trade as little as possible, and pursue a tech line to Monarchy. We start the Great Library in 690. In 510, we spot the first Roman legionary. :eek:

In 430, we succeed in depriving Rome of their iron. We finish the Great Library in 350, and our age of glory ends in 330. It is from this point forward that we are utterly abandoned and become forsaken of the gods of the RNG. In 290 Persia begins to settle south of our mountains, where we had just burned Roman cities. From this point until 290 AD, when we enter the Middle Ages, we are in a war with Rome in which we successfully defend our empire, but see our attacking forces demolished by an unfriendly RNG. As an example of this, I attacked a 3/3 archer on grassland with a 5/5 Mercenary, the result of which was a 4/4 archer! We engaged in a brief war with *CENSORED* to kick them off our continent. The only bright spot was the construction of the Great Wall in 10 BC.

In summary:
1100 BC-- Pyramids
350 BC-- Great Library
10 BC-- Great Wall
MGL-- none. We've had 11 elite victories, plus many ridiculous defeats, but no leaders have emerged yet. (X-Team, we feel your pain...) :mad:

Here's what I've got for the spoiler. I had to censor out some of it (Persia, India, etc) to comply with the rules, but left these in to accurately describe our game. Make whatever comments you see fit.

Very nice summery of our actions.
I would consider adding a picture or two from our uploaded pictures.

Please let us know when you post it.

Well done, Taliesen! You're now the official team scribe.

My one suggestion is to replace CENSORED with 'another civ'.

So has anyone used MailMan's magnificient SoD? If not, I say go ahead and attack, MailMan!

Did we decide to abandon Hippo in favor of Rome?

I don't think we can realistically expect to keep interlopers off our isle. The best we could hope for would be a friendly civ and a harbor connection.

I think it's Detlef's turn-- he has already posted a got-it.
I will add pictures (I have two of them prepared), but cannot figure out how. I've tried what I can, but I'm going to have to swallow my pride and ask someone to hand-walk me through this. :blush: Alamo, I tried saving them as PNG files, but they're still too big. Also, I don't know how to make them appear in the body of text-- can I do that by managing attachments, or is there some other control to use?
EDIT: OK, I've got them on as attachments (they're low quality, though), but how do I make them appear in the body of my post?

Did we decide to abandon Hippo in favor of Rome?

Abandon Hippo, yes, but we're building 1 tile SW of Rome for a better site (one more SW would be optimal, except that we won't be able to hold the iron).

My one suggestion is to replace CENSORED with 'another civ'.

I register this suggestion, but I refuse to accept it because my way has more comedic value. :crazyeye: (At least to me.)

Well done, Taliesen! You're now the official team scribe.

Aw shucks... :blush:
There, now I can take brazen pride in this new capacity (see my sig).

Well, I'll post to the spoiler thread (I'll take alamo's and MailMan's approval as a vote of confidence on behalf of Detlef) as is, and worry about getting the pictures in the body later.

From reading the spoilers, it becomes obvious that we don't need to waste three settlers founding cities to prop up the FP: we'll claim three cities from Rome, found the city SW of Rome, start the FP, and burn the extras.

The 20K race is up. it is VERY desirable (4 out of 6 teams that posted so far).
Currently we are the only one that attempt 20K in the capital.

There is another approach for the FP: build the palace in the moved Rome, and build the FP in our former capital.
Advantage:
our 20K city will be able to use palace pre-build.
Disadvantage:
The transition and setup time will be very painful.

Unless we get a leader soon I would not even consider this. but on the 1/16 chance that our 5/5 merc will generate leader attacking Rome it is worth discussion.

If we get a leader, I'm all for that. We would need to sacrifice settlers, though, I think.

A 1/16 chance of MGL would be great, but it's probably less than 1/32 for non-mil w/o HE.

@Taliesin: I use 8-bit color to save on size. You can put pics inline but you have to upload the old way (not attachement) then insert your own IMG tag.

The Palace/FP swap is interesting, but how can we do it with just 1 MGL?

Sounds like we need a few settlers in reserve, at least.

BTW - At least one team has an army of numids. :eek:

From the Academy (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_leaders.shtml):
The chanced for MGL is:
1/16 on attack without HE
1/32 on defence without HE
1/12 on attack with HE
1/24 on defence with HE

militaristic civs odds are the same. They have better chance to get units to elite status though.

This is only useful if we get it on attacking Rome, but we can do the following:
1. capture Rome and get MGL.
2. destroy hippo
3. rush settler on Rome (may be several turns until we can do that due to revolutions).
4. END TURN
5. move settler SW
6. END TURN
7. sign peace with the Romans, get their cities
8 found New Rome.
9. rush palace
10. change Catherge to FP
11. destroy former Roman colonies.

We will through some shield away in our former capital, but it will be worth it for the long run

Since we will most likely will not get the MGL (our history with the RNG dictate it) all the above can be sent strait to the trash.

Hmmm...I haven't seen that article. The pedia HE entry implies that militaristic has something to do with it, but who am I to argue w/Sirpleb?

So a FP pre-build would be a important part of the swap. It would take SunTsu to get enough shields in the near future.

Detlef: Are you playing? Is there any progress?

Yes, i'am ready.
First our RNG luck is bad as always. only one promotion and no leader during the attack of Rome.

Rome falls 570 and we get 5 of the 6 Roman citys after peace.
I started the FP at Rome.
To not brake the rule, i deleted our N city and all other formaly Roman citys.
I build two colonys on the Ivorys to prefent happiness.

The second bad, i can't upload the save. An error massage like 'Site not found' occures. I try it again, tomorrow at work.

At least we have the FP started. Rome is rank3, so maybe it will make a few shields. The immediate problem is to prevent a culture flip.

Starve Rome down to 1 citizen!

We can join the native workers once the royal road is complete, but NO foreigners!

At least after my turns there were no native workers. I joined the last one to Thevese. slave workers do not cost maintenance unlike native one.

Rome should NOT build the FP since we want to move it 1 tile SW.
Rome should produce a settler.

Here is the Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_AD0650_01.SAV)

We can't move Rome. First we loose the possibility to build the FP and second we increase the flip risc because of the Roman capitol Vei.
The next should take a look with Mapstat, i think we have enough units to cover the fliprisc.

I think it's my turn (someone correct me if I'm wrong). I should be able to play tonight (in about nine or ten hours).
How do I use Mapstat to determine the chance of culture flip? (I've got 3.1)

It tells you, how many units you need to minimize or delete flip chances.

Yes - Do NOT move Rome unless you have 5 settlers ready to enable the FP again.

Mapstat does flip calc? I though it was for domination checks.

My experience has been that necessary garrison size is exponential with population, so starving a city down helps tremendously.

Here's a calculator from annares:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53157

I looked at the save and I suggest doing the following:
1. Utica reached size 12 but produce extra 4 food. that means that 4 grass can be mined for extra 4 shields.
2. Rome has 0.00% cahnce of flipping (acording to MapStat 2.7.2) garrision of 2 soldiers is enough. no need to starve it.
3. the workers near Rome priority should road and mine the iron instead of clearing the jungles.
4. our RoP with Persia end in 6 turns. I suggest attacking them strait away and create colony over the wool.

Detlef: do you have a turn log? How many units did we lost over Rome?
Taliesin: I believe it is your turn as well.

Zero chance of flip!? I can't believe that! Usually the palace city has enough culture to be a significant flip risk.

Put some extra troops in there if you've got them!

By my count it is anyone's turn but mine.

Turns Taken:
==========
alamo - 5
MailMan - 4
Talesien - 4
Detlef - 3
Sark - 0

We lost 6 units. 4 archer and 2 UU's.

I thought I would be able to play today, but I'm very busy this weekend and I would like to be skipped until Thursday or Friday. (Sorry about that.)
MailMan, go ahead.

OK. I got it.

The SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_AD0750_01.SAV)


Turn log:
0) pre-flight:
Army: 35 merc, 5 cat, 9 archers.
Changed Utica to build library instead of harbor, since we are producing extra 4 food as it is.
Changed Theveste to build courthoush instead of library. currently it is 25% corrupted (5 of 20 shields).

IBT - babs learn invention and start building Leo workshop.

1) move units.
2) move units.
IBT Utice: Library --> merc
3) move units. try to block persian settlers.
IBT: iron connected.
4) chenged production in Utice from merc to MI.
IBT: courthouse in Theveste completed (gained 2 shields and 2 commerce). change dproduction to MI.
5) ---
IBT: Leptis: Herbor --> MI.
6) ---
IBT: our RoP with persia finished.
one of our soldiers died in the Jungle. This is the first time that I ever seen that.
7) declare war on Perisa. cupture a worker in the process of moving closer.
IBT - persia land settler near our ivory.
8) take that settler:
merc 4/4 vs archer 3/3 --> merc 4/4 + 2 slaves.
cat vs spear 3/3 --> spear 3/3 killed citizen
cat vs spear 3/3 --> spear 3/3
cat vs spear 3/3 --> spear 2/3
cat vs spear 3/3 --> spear 3/3
cat vs spear 3/3 --> spear 3/3
archer 4/4 vs spear 3/3 --> (loss) spear 3/3
archer 4/4 vs spear 3/3 --> (win) archer 2/4
merc 5/5 vs spear 2/3 --> (win) merc 2/5. raze city + 2 slaves.
archer 4/4 vs spear 3/3 --> (loss) spear 2/4
archer 4/4 vs spear 3/3 --> (loss) spear 2/3
archer 4/4 vs spear 2/4 --> (loss) spear 2/5
archer 4/4 vs spear 2/5 --> (win) archer 1/4
merc 5/5 vs spear 2/3 --> (win) merc 2/5. raze city.
create colony over wool.

Sign military aliance with Indian fro 120g against Persia to keep them busy.

9) ---
10) ---
Army: 35 merc, 5 cat, 4 archers, 2 MI.

Summery:
except a brief war with perisa boring turns.
War: lost 4 archers. won 2 elite victories without GL.
We signed MA against peria.
4 turns to Sun Tzu.

Good show.

Who wants to be next?
I am guessing the next 10 turn will be boring as well, but somebody has to play them. As a bonus you have a great chance to get the Sun Tzu and sell all the barracks.
Hopfully the wonder cascade will stop at Leo's, so we can get Bach's.

Edit: if possible, the next player should try to get Leo's instead of Sun Tzu.
Reasons:
- same culture
- same shields
- we can not get both
- Leo's will save us much more gold.

Should we move Uttica to the space between Rome and Theveste? If we don't then sooner or later someone will slip in another town. Also, the chances of getting rubber are better near the jungle.

A settler is getting close, but we should start downsizing Uttica with workers to disband. Ideally we would found the new city and disband Uttica the turn before or after the FP is complete.

The cuurent SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_AD0800_01.SAV)

Turnlog:

Wow! Half way to FP already! Maybe we should relocate Uttica to the space between Rome and Theveste. Any rubber is likely to be there.

Hammi only wants 2 arms and 2 legs for Invention - only one who knows it! Vikings, Celts are Germans are far behind. We should start researching Mono for Theo(Sistene) or we may loose that one, too.

750AD(0) - Set Sci/Lux to 10/20. Still 40 turns to Mono at 20%! Move troops to block the fertile valley.


IBT: Roman settler approaches.

760AD(1) - Uttica completes harbor, starts settler. Arrange blockade.

IBT: Barbs appear near Rome!

770AD(2) - Leptis completes library, starts MI.

IBT: Roman settler moves to peninsula.

780AD(3) - Uttica completes settler, starts MI. Settler heads to the gap.

IBT: Persia wants peace - no deal if MA still alive!

790AD(4) - Sun Tzu's complete! Carthage start market. Greeks know invention, too. Form another ivory colony. Investigate Babylon for 168g to be sure Leo's is gone - yep, 7 turns to go (15sh/turn).

IBT: We get invention via TGL.

800AD(5) - Stop to discuss moving Utica.

Intuitively, I'm against moving Utica. It seems to be in a strong location already, and Rome's culture should expand soon enough. The narrow area near the jungle will be much easier to defend than would the wide area north of Carthage.
A pity on the timing of Invention, there. But generally good turns. Nice blockade! :D
Unfortunately, of course, we'll need to build a new military soon.

Got it. I also against moving Utica.

I also vote against the move.

I suggest we build up our forces to destroy Rome completly after the peace deal is finished.
If India sign peace with Persia, we should do so as well, we might get a city or two since we destroyed 2 of their cities.

I'm not sure we should accept cities from Persia, since they won't be on our continent and aren't a direct threat or problem. We would just abandon them immediately, and we don't want to do too much of that because it harms AI attitudes toward us.

I did not meant to occupy the received cities, the perpose is indeed to abandon them immediately to hold back Persia.

I think that several civs (e.g. the Romans ans the Persian) we should consider as our enemies and would not consider them as potinital allies or as a vote in a diplo win. Those civs should be crippled as much as possible.

Ok, no to moving Uttica. The settler can join Rome.

Culture may eventually join the borders, but that will take awhile. Romans, Persians or our eastern neighbors will slip a settler in there the moment our troops get distracted, though.

Persia will take peace as soon as we offer it. The MA with hatma still has a few turns.

We can set up a blockade to prevante other civ from settling.
There is a partial blockade already on the shores.

Sorry, but i need another day. Perhaps i can post today afternoon, but i'am not shure.

I'll be able to pick it up after you, Detlef.

First, the Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_AD0900_01.SAV)

810: nothing

820: Greece wants 91g (I say yes, it is not really much)

830: India ask for an alliance against Rome (I say No)

840: Carthage: marcet -> Leo's
start with galleys at Utica (we need a fleet)

850: nothing

860: Babylon build Leo's :( i changed to MDI's
joined our settler to Rome

870: nothing

880: nothing

890: get Gunpowder from GL

900: nothing

I started to build two stacks against Rome 6 MDI's at each should reach against spears. I hope we have now more RNG luck and get some Leaders.

Okay, I'll be able to play this weekend, maybe today, definitely tomorrow. It's a shame about Leo's, but at least the cascade stops here. We need to hit Sistine--JSBach--Copernicus--Newton--Shakespeare (or as many of them as possible).

Save is here. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_AD1000_01.SAV)

Preflight-- Peace and 96g, 26gpt from Persia
Repositioned some troops.
IBT-- Vikings demand Lit. I comply. Rome builds FP--> Marketplace.
910 Moving troops to attack positions. DoW on Rome.
IBT Babylon demands 100g. I refuse, he backs down. India and Rome sign peace. Rome and Utica riot.
920 Invade Romans. Pacify Rome and Utica with entertainers.
IBT Persia lands NW of Rome-- there was a gap on the edge of the blockade that I missed. :blush:
930 Some decent results from battle. I raze Palmyra.
IBT India and Persia sign peace. We learn Monotheism from Babylon, Persia. Start Theocracy (23 turns).
940 Sack Veii with few losses.
IBT Persia building Sistine Chapel. :eek:
950 Cut Science to 10% again. Elite victory, but nothing.
960 Nothing.
970 Hurry Carthage's Cathedral.
980 Nothing.
990 Raze Caesaraugusta, killing 2 spearmen. The victorious elite Mercenary-- Taliesin the Bold and Unscrupulous-- promotes a leader, Hamilcar. :D Finally...
1000 Hamilcar is in Carthage, safe and sound. I almost raze Brundisium.

Persia has a tech lead-- Chivalry, Theology-- that nobody else has. That would be worrying, but now we have a leader, and we can probably learn Theology before Persia builds the Sistine Chapel. Especially since Xerxes seems very vain: he has all of Russia's usual text during diplomacy, so he greeted me with "Have you come here to admire my great beauty?"
The next player can get peace with Rome, as well as 24g, 6 gpt, and Brundisium and Jerusalem. Up to all of us if we want to take the cities or not.
Do not attack Persia's city-- we still have a lucrative peace deal for another 10 turns.
That is all.

Wee! ... Great turns... Great Leader... Wee!

Looking at the save I notices that both Babylon and Persia gor Theology, which means: Sistine in 2 turns!!!

I suggest finishing off rome. Other civs will soon fill our continent and we can still do some leader fishing with them.
We should upgrade our non elite merc.
We should start study Education we want to build Uni and Bach's ASAP.

A MGL!!! [dance]

We can probably build Sistene. Is Cartage doing a pre-build?

Got it.

No pre-build, but with the MGL it doesn't matter.

Save is HERE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_AD1110_01.SAV)

Sistene in 17 turns, with a little luck. I am betting we can build it before Persia or Babs.

We'll be facing wonder cascades soon - Copern, Bachs, Smiths, Shakes, Magellan, Newton. The MGL will be a big help here.

At peace with everyone. I switched to culture buildings since we're stronger than everyone.

All things considered, eliminating the Romans does us no good. We can keep Ceasar as a convienient whipping boy rather than making new enemies.

Mercs upgrade to muskets. I'd rather have attack 2 unless we need defense. We're stronger than everybody, so no danger, yet.

1000AD(0) - Switch Carthage to courthouse for pre-build. We should get Theo by next turn. Make peace with Ceasar for 24g. He can keep the cities to take space.

IBT: Ceasar kicks us out. Get Theo from TGL. Babs building Sistene. Indian settler appears in our fair land.

1010AD(1) - Switch to Sistene (27 turns). Jerxes's got a 5 turn lead, but building in Antioch, which is still in the fog. I'm pretty sure our pre-build and 21spt will be sufficient. Babylon only had 15spt last time I checked. Switch Leptis to cathedral and Theveste to library. Sci/Lux 50/10 for Education in 20.

1020AD(2) - Rome completes temple and starts lib.

IBT: Indians choose a spot distance 4 from Rome - an ominous sign.

1040AD(3) - Uttica completes Cathedral, starts Colosseum. Theveste completes library, starts cathedral.

1050AD(4) - Rome completes library, starts cathedral.

1060AD(5) - workers road/mine
1070AD(6) - same
1080AD(7) - same
1090AD(8) - same

IBT: Persian, Indian galleys looking to land settlers.

1100AD(9) - Leptis completes cathedral, starts colosseum.

IBT: Peace treaty with Persia renewed. Get Education from TGL - free ride is over. :(

1110AD(10) - Spotted another Persian settler. Sci now -71 gpt. Astro in 22 turns.

Hopefully we can stop the wonder cascade with Astronomy:
Sistine Chapel finishes
+3 turns
Rush University
+1 turn
Astronomy
Start Copernicus
Rush with MGL and pray that Persia doesn't know Music Theory.
Beeline for Free Artistry.

It is a very big wager on the Sistine.

I am not sure I would have done it, actually I am sure I wouldn't (I recommended the opposite in my previous post).
On success we gain MGL for later use to stop a wonder cascade at the cost of at least 27*6 (162) culture, probably more since Uni is delayed as well, we also do not have any chance for leader farming at the moment.
On failure on the other hand we loose quite a bit.

Did you ran espionage mission on the sistine cities?
Do we have a chance?
If not I suggest building Uni with the pre-build and using the MGL to the sistine strait away.

I suggest going for Music Teory for Bach's (6 cpt instead of only 4 cpt)

I got it and will play next (hopfully start in 5 hours or so).
Please advise.

I am in complete agreement. If there is any question of not completing the Sistine Chapel, it must be rushed. We can end the wonder cascade right now by building University and then rushing Sistine Chapel. Music Theory sounds good too.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/shield21.JPG
This is a test to see if image upload works.
Edit: Excellent. Now that I've finally discovered how to do this, I can post screenshots from the game.

Save is HERE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_AD1210_01.SAV)

Turn Log:
Pre check - changed to Music Theory (in 16).
investigate babylon (168g): Sistine in 19 turns 19 spt. size 12 (so 19 spt is probably their max) sliders at 4.6.0 (31gpt + 21 beacons) 21 cpt. I think this city is a big threat in the long run.

can not investigate Perian's Antiuch since we do not know its location. decided to go with manual build.

I think I will plant a forest near our capital. It will take several turns to get there.

set sliders to 3.6.1 Music Theory in 13 -37gpt.

changed the 4 supporting cities to produce Uni's.

IBT - Persia found another city. India and Rome start the Sistine.

1. 1120 AD. move workers. sail our ships the the other part of the continent. I think they will be more usful near Persia.
MM a bit to reduce turns.

2. nothing much.
3. nothing much.
4. nothing much.
IBT Rome Uni --> Cathadral.
5. 1160AD nothing much.
IBT Theveste Uni --> Cathadral.
Utica Uni --> Colosseom.
6. forest planted. did not reduce a turn. plant another one.
7. nothing much.
8. 1190AD another forest completed. reduce turns to Sistine from 9 to 8. we loose 1 food per turn now.
Persia learned anouther tech. they are now ahead by 4 techs, Greech up by one. we are third.
IBT - celts demanded Invention. I called thier bluf.
9. nothing much. I noticed that the world has traded some thecs around. we are now #4.
10. nothing much.

Summery: nothing much. we are falling behind in thecs. We should trade Music Theroy the turn we rush JB's (Hopfully) It is risky but It will be worth more money.
6 turns to Sistine, 2 turn to Music Theroy.

Detlef-- if you haven't posted a "got-it" by tomorrow morning at about noon your time, I will go ahead and play my turns. Otherwise, I won't be able to play until Thursday.

Scary ride to Sistene's, eh?

I had investigated Babylon about Leos, so I already knew it was 15spt. As for Antioch, it is not a capital and they just had a 6 turn start (minus 2-3 turn prebuild). I bet that 21spt could beat them, with the usual help from stupid worker AI.

Bachs will be started while we build Copernicus, so an opportunity to rush is coming soon. After that, let the elites loose again!

The biggest long-term problem will be funding research. Troops will cost dearly, but we cannot afford to be very weak.

Shields / Culture Per Turn:

Bachs - 600 / 6
Coper - 400 / 4
Magel - 400 / 3
Smith - 600 / 3
Newt - 400 / 6
Shake - 400 / 8

So... finish Sistine, rush Bach when able, rush university, build Copernicus?

A hard call from here. It may be better to trade for MT the turn before building Copern, since it's cheaper.

Having the science wonders is huge, but there's a bunch of culture along other branches.

Maybe we need to get civs fighting in the next war. MA, anyone? :devil2:

Taliesin, you can take it, i go after you.
If i understand it right, we save our Leader for the next wonder.
Wow, thats crazy. I always loose on such races.

So... finish Sistine, rush Bach when able, rush university, build Copernicus?
That's the idea. My guess is that Copernicus is 90% lost due to the fast tech race and the existing prebuilds.
Bach's should be rushed imeidiatly since it will be avaliable after Sistine.
You can slow down tech race to learn MT in 6 instead of 2. We will not sell it sooner and there is no point in study new techs until the trade (we are behind).
I think we should disband one unit to rush build Uni in 1 turn.

I am guessing we should persue the folloing wonders with the highest priority:
Shake - 400 / 8
Newt - 400 / 6

Maybe we need to get civs fighting in the next war. MA, anyone?
I think it is a time for some fights. We should set civs to war that reside on the same landmass (e.g. India & Persia)
We can do it even now, before the wonders are built.

Got it. I can't start wars, but I'll see what I can do to catch up on techs. I'll post shortly.

Save is here. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_AD1280_01.SAV)

Preflight: Set science to 20%. Trade Invention to India for Printing Press, 1g. I can't start a war through MA.
IBT Leptis finishes university-->Musket.
1220 Persia knows Astronomy
1230 Babylon, Persia building Copernicus'. Cut science to 10%.
IBT Rome Cathedral-->MI. Utica Colosseum-->MI
1240 Exploring toward Persia with galleys.
1250 --
IBT Bismarck demands contact with Rome. I give it to him, and he goes from Annoyed to furious. :confused:
1255 DoW on Persia.
IBT Music Theory-->Astronomy (40). Finish Sistine Chapel. Babylon finishes Copernicus'. Theveste Cathedra-->Musket.
1260 Hurry JS Bach's. Trade Music Theory and 50g to Alex for Chemistry. Trade MT and 750g to Babylon for Banking. Start Democracy at -21gpt (26 turns). Switch all cities except Carthage to banks.
IBT Carthage finishes Bach's.--> University. Everyone begins celebrating.
1265 I set entertainment to 0. People are mostly still celebrating. Democracy-- 20 turns. Raze Hamadan, capture 2 workers but no leader.
1270--
1275--
IBT Vikings demand contact with Rome, I give it to them.
1280--

Democracy is finished in 15 turns. We can use this as a monopoly tech (hopefully) to buy our way into Astronomy and Physics, plus we'll probably snag Shakespeare. There is a Persian caravel north of Utica the next player should watch out for. Troops will be healed in Rome next turn, including an elite Merc, so the other Persian city can be stormed. Greece currently has a monopoly on Metallurgy. It might be worth it to buy into it when we can. Otherwise, wait on Democracy. We're losing gold, but not too much, and once we get banks we will have a turnaround. DO NOT fall behind on tech. As long as we can get a monopoly on a first-tier Industrial tech like Medicine, we should be fine. Persia, Babylon and Greece are the only tech threats at this point.
I will not be back to the thread until Thursday.

Nice turns. Got it.

We got Sistene - whew!

Rushed Bachs! :thumbsup:

My gambit paid off, even if I have to mention it myself...:smug:

I will not be back to the thread until Thursday.

Okay. I lied. So sue me. :mischief:
This was just insurance, in case I didn't get a spare minute or two.
We're looking good for at least Shakespeare, methinks.
Detlef-- be careful with Persia. They have knights and musketmen and such, and ships don't take that long to reach us from Xerxes' continent. Remember that caravel in the northeast.
We should go as hard as possible to Free Artistry, trade Democracy when we're nearly done FA (or halfway done) to kickstart a beeline to Theory of Gravity. We might be able to nail both, if we're lucky and if we can start some wars.

My gambit paid off
Wow! what a ride.

IBT Bismarck demands contact with Rome. I give it to him, and he goes from Annoyed to furious.
Once Bismarck leaned on all the bad things we did to Rome (mainly razing cities) his attidude turned to be worse.

It will be very hard to get diplo win if we continue razing cities.
But we are looking quite good for the 20K. we will have to slow down tech race to avoid SS launch.

I think the Gold Laurel is our only hope, and it will be mighty challenging. offa and tao are pretty much right on the Jason dates for their conditions, so we'll have to do whatever we can to finish before this cutoff.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the late contacts change. I guess eliminating Ceasar would have been good from that standpoint. I guess we could have avoided any further razes.

SS stasis is pushed back to robotics, so hopefully out of reach before 20k.

Diplo position is not great for obvious reasons. We'll have to do the MPP trick for sure if we need UN vote.

Culture: 5402+59/t so 247 turns to go at this rate!

With Shakespears that goes to 67/t for 218 turns. Some wonders and buildings will double before too long - that will help.

No wonder I usually go for domination (no pun intended).

My turns:

1285: Vinings and Persia sign MPP against us and DoW us

1290: nothing

1295: Rome builds bank, next catapult
Persia land near Carthage (1 knight/ 1 spear)
killed the spear and damaged knight to 1hp (no losses)
captured Ergili with no loss
tried to bring the Celts on our side against the Vikings,
traded chiv <-> theology but it failed

1300: Leptis Magna builds bank, next musket
killed the knight

1305: Utica builds bank, next longbow (the best against knights)
Theveste builds bank, next musket

1310: Demo in 5 (Persia already knows it)

1315: Carthage builds uni, next bank

1320: Persia lands 2 units near Carthage (killed both)
Babylon and Greece also knows Demo

1325: nothing

1330: Greece demands 28g (i say yes)
finished demo, free arty in 15 turns

Sum: We have no chance of trading or help from outside, all others hate us. I started with cats, about 20 are enough to stay against our enemys.

I can't upload the save. The next should PM me his email and i send him the save.

Well, Diplo gone and we are about to be on the bottom of the dog pile.
We must get some MA going for us.

I will not be able to play until Saturday so please skip my turn.

I can't upload the save. The next should PM me his email and i send him the save.
Ok, check your pm.

With vikings we need muskets in all costal cities!

OK, save sended.
2 of our citys are producing muskets. 3 at each city is enough.
I hope that no other search for free arty.

Save is HERE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_AD1410_01.SAV)

War with Rome. In wonder race for Shakes, Smiths, Magellan. We should be ok for Shakespear. Trying for another MGL, but no luck after 5 elite victories. Falling behind in techs, and money is tight.


1330AD(0) - Hatma and Brennus will not make MA for 2 techs - wow. Hammi, Alex up 2 techs. Finances very poor. Something must give by 7 turns. Not enough muskets in costal cities.

1335AD(1) - move troops, build muskets, road tiles.
1340AD(2) - same
1345AD(3) - same

1350AD(4) - Peace with Jerxes for 120g, Ragnar has nothing but 26g for peace. Gold ok for now. Move troops for attack on Rome - spend the obsolete troops after elites.

IBT: Greeks, Babs, Persians start Smiths. Indian settler heads for the gap.

1355AD(5) - Carthage completes Bank, starts MI.

1360AD(6) - move troops, build troops, road tiles.
1365AD(7) - same.

IBT: The rush for Magellan's is on. Roman settler appears.

1370AD(8) - Decide to cover the Rome Theveste gap and move off the peninsula SW of Rome.

IBT: Persians land on SW peninsula.

1375AD(9) - Move troops. Switch builds to wealth.

IBT: Persians start Shakes!

1380AD(10) - Carthage starts courthouse as prebuild. FA in 2 now!

1385AD(11) - Sci to 40 for a few gold. Make DoW on Ceasar and move on Brundisium.

1390AD(12) - Start Shakespears(18 turns), research Astro. 5 cats do 0 damage. 2 elite victories. Take Brundisium - nothing to sell.

1400AD(13) - 2 more elite victories.

IBT: Persian settler arrives with cavalry escort! :eek:

1410AD(14) - Elite victory. Waiting to heal.

It looks like we're fostering a lovely, multicultural island there. Speaking of which, I guess it's my turn. I might play Thursday night, but Friday is more likely.
I think we've basically reached the stage where we hold on tight and hope nobody hurts us. Unless we manage to get a Medicine monopoly, we will not keep up in techs-- trust me, I've tried it.

Nice turns Alamo. What about a move of Theveste ? A little bit more S at the coast, it can grow past 12. The mountains are save, no one can settle there and we can block them very easy.

I suppose that is doable. We could have 11 workers ready to join, but it would hurt our gold and sci production until all the buildings are replaced.

We desperately need a MGL to grab at least one more wonder. The indians are probably the next likely target.

However, I would hate to let the persians consolidate a hold on our land, seeing how they already have cav.

Taliesin: Are you playing now?
If not I will play my turns in about 6 hours.

I am. I'll post shortly.

Here it is. The Save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_AD1460_01.SAV)

Preflight
Trade Ivory to Alex for Incense, 16gpt
Trade Democracy and 40g to India for Astronomy, Furs.
Start Physics-- finished in 19 turns.
1415
1420
1425
1430 Trade spices to Babylon for Gems, 2gpt
1435 WLTGD all around! I kill a Roman archer near Carthage.
1440
1445 Attack Syracuse with elites. No leader.
IBT Babylon building Newton's.
1450 Partly withdraw from Syracuse to heal elites.
IBT Persia building Newton's.
1455 Persia and Babylon are Industrial! :eek:
1460 Culture expands in the southwest.

We're basically meeting our objectives. We won't get Newton's, but Shakespeare's is finished in 4 turns. I tried to trade up to ToG, but nobody will trade for per-turn deals of any kind.
I traded for luxuries because I figured I might as well-- our excess goods are just sitting around. We can also get horses when (if) we ever get MT.
I think our culture is about 8500 in Carthage. We're going to have quite the job keeping up with Babylon and Persia until Carthage reaches 20k. According to my calculations, we should reach this milestone before 1900, at least, but I wouldn't get our hopes up for the Gold Laurel... :(

I got it and will play next

Shakespears almost certainly for a whopping 6 culture/turn. :)

If we get another MGL to hurry a wonder from the Romans then my decision to spare them will be vindicated. Otherwise the reputation hit may prove to be too much. :(

Save is here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_AD1510_01.SAV)

0 - preflight: MM capital to gain more food. Shake's still at 4. increase sience for physics at 7 unstead of 9. still making +2gpt

IBT - greeks building neuton's

1 - prepare ground for Theveste move: send out slaves to irrigate and create native workers in 4 cities.

IBT - indians building magenal's.

2. 1470AD nothing much move created workers to new city locating and create settler in thevese.

IBT - WE LOOSE SHAKE's BY ONE TURN !!!!

3. try to trade for economics to build smite's but no one will buy it for even 94gpt + 271g and all the workers that we have.

Until I decide what to do with our capital, I destroy Rome's capital, and surprise surprise - we got a leader out of it. I named the MI: "A bit too late"

Since the ML will not be used soon, I decided to trade get 28gpt from Persia in order to try buy economics at higher price.
Still no trade.

I bought Physics for 270g from babs.

Someone surely messed up our reputation.

I sold Physics + 4 slaves + WM to get Metalluragy + WM from India.

change capital to produce musketman with a lose of 324 shields.

set research to 0% net gain 121gpt.

4. 1480AD - decided to go for Heroeic epic The next wonder is so far away. produce an MI army with our leader

5. sell all Thevese buildings. disband it and build Oea. Set production to Aqueduct. join workers.

6. work on Oea

IBT greece demanded gold, I refused. they DOW.
Neuton's compleeted by the babs.

7. 1500AD Bought alliance against the greeks with the germans with 3 techs and 500g. hopfully they will use the money to buy anouther aliances.

Sold ivory to get incense and horses.

IBT Smite's built.

8 . Army won a battle against an Rome archer. HE in 9.

IBT - Furs deal ended.

I stop here to decide If we want to attack India.

Summery: Lost Shake's. got MGL with a single elite victory, built and army start producing HE. We are at war with Greece. Greece will soon finish our German's allays. Moved Theveste.

Rotten, I say. Rotten. (our luck, not you :D )
At least that DoW will cost Alex, as he was sending us incense and gold.
I think the next leader, if any, should be saved in the probably vain hope that we can score ToE. If we can get ToE, then the Hoover Dam is ours, in all likelihood. But that's not very likely. We now only have one elite unit-- a Mercenary. All I can say is, Rome must be kept alive, or we will never get an MGL-- try attacking rifles with that Merc.
Sorry I didn't move Theveste, if that's what we want to do. I figured it was too much of an effort and a risk, and I thought we hadn't concluded on that subject yet.

No shakes???!!! :suicide:

Culture status: 8448+73c/t (w/HE) => 158 turns

Sun Tsu and the Cathedral will double, but the prospects of significantly more culture doesn't look good.

If we can't get MT and make some cav then we're pretty much done.

Save is HERE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_AD1555_01.SAV)

At war with Greeks, but no sign of troops. India war delayed in favor of getting cav ASAP.

We will get MT 2 turns before horse deal expires, so be sure to upgrade knights to CAVALRY! Adjust sci 3-4 turns before discovery. If we can renew the horse deal then we could build a bunch more and retire our obsolete troops to save gold. Oea can grow once the culture borders expand in 4 turns.

1510AD(0) - Good job moving theveste - Oea aquaduct in 4. No sci, but no trades? Sci to 50 for MT in 15. We're still ahead of 4 civs. Switch wealth cities to knights. Decide against India war until Greek situation resolved. Make peace with Ceasar. Move troops towards home.

1515AD(1) - Hatma won't lets the troops pass. Trade hatma spice for furs+5gpt.

1520AD(2) - Move troops.
1525AD(3) - same

1525AD(4) - Hammi demands 32g - ok for now.

1530AD(5) - Triumphant troops return to Rome. Oea starts temple, grows until starvation occurs.

1535AD(6) - Renegotiate Hammi's spice deal to get 11gpt instead of 2!

1540AD(7) - Not much happening - where's all the greeks?

1545AD(8) - Carthage completes HE, starts knight.

1550AD(9) - nada

1555AD(10) - Oea completes temple, starts lib. Get more food in 4 turns.

Got it. Will play today.

It tooks some time, but here we go:

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_AD1605_01.SAV)

1560: Germany was killed by Greece
Babylon sign a trade embargo against greece
Babylon trade Military tradition for 280g
i changed to Theory of Gravity
I decided this because if greece land units then they land rifl and cavs
and they sign packts with the others against us. And we can't stay
with our AA units against this.

1565: 1st greece ship near Oea

1570: greece and persia sign a pact for defence

1575: another greece ships near rome, but no landings

1580: Celts ask for banking (NO), they DoW us

1585: greece ironclads are bombing our coast (about 10 ships :eek: )
i damaged 3 with cats

1590: more bombings (i damaged another one)

1595: they go on
Babylon trades horses+5gpt for ivory

1600: First landing -- 4 rifl+1 cav+1 MI in the W of Rome
(Who said AI's can't fight iland wars?)
killed all of them for the loss of 1 cav, 1 knight and 1 MI
but again, no luck, no leader and only one elite promo

1605: the next 2 cavs arriving (killed them with no loss and no promo)

I hope we can stay this long enough. We need defnetly more leaders and promos. More luck to the next better player.

More horses - whew!

Be sure to rebuild harbors immediately if one gets destroyed.

I'll play tonight or tomorrow.
Greece already has Industrialisation! eep!

I think we need to speed up our game play.
I think that SGOTM5 is around the corner and we still have to play more than 100 turns to win a culture victory.

Sorry, Taliesin, we waited too long.

Here's the SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_AD1655_01.SAV).

Carthage at 10537 culture. Only 130 more turns at 73/turn.

At peace again. Building cav or improvements. We still have 10 turns in a peace for gold deal with Alex. Sci can go up for a few turns when that runs out. We probably should wait for nationalism to get MPP's before next war, if any.

1605AD(0) - Alex offers peace for 228g. I decide to take it. We desperately need more cav.

1610AD(1) - Oea completes courthouse, starts market. Must disband 2 archers.

1615AD(2) - Disband more units to help with builds.

IBT: Hatma renegs deal for 1 less gpt.

1620AD(3) - Disband archers. Make peace with Celts, trade Met+Bank=Nav+Mag.

1625AD(4) - Sci to 40% for ToG in 2.

1630AD(5) - 3 more disbands.

IBT: Renegotiate with Hammi for 1 more gpt. Settlers go for the gap.

1635AD(6) - Cover gaps with workers. Go for Steam.

1640AD(7) - Nada.
1645AD(8) - Nada.
1650AD(9) - more disbands.
1655AD(10) - more disbands.

I disbanded a few units to get the gold savings for the units we will replace with cav. These were used to hurry unit or improvements.

After looking at the tech race it occurs to me that we could curry favor with 3 civs by trading techs generously - Ottomans, Scandanavia, and the Celts. We can use that to get a MPP once we get nationalism.

No hard feelings-- I figured this would happen.
Sorry about that. I really meant to play Thursday night, believe it or not, but one thing and then another came up and I had to do various things-- coursework and some house-work projects as well.
I'll be more careful about allotting some time to play next time.
Is Medicine generally known? I thought we would try to get a monopoly on it.
Good work managing the wars, alamo!
EDIT: sorry, that wasn't clear. This isn't a got-it.

OK, I got it now.

Ok, it took 30 minutes but here is the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/alamo_SG004_AD1700_01.SAV)

Pre check: MM a bit with no turn reductions.

1 - nothing much.
IBT viking demand Chemstry. I decline they DOW.
Embargo with bab against greek expired.
2 - set production of our capital to Military Academy for one more cpt.
3 - disband some MI to increase cash flow and to hurry builds.
IBT - babs and persia sign MPP.
4 - nothing much.
5 - nothing much.
IBT - re negotiate lux deal with persia for 11 more gpt.
6 - nothing much.
IBT - babs complete Univeral suffrage
7 - nothing much.
8 - make trade with celts: Demo for Economics, Silks, WM and all their gold (7+1 gpt).
IBT - greece demand map +25g I comply.
9 - Oea complete cathadral. Together with silk we now have 5*12 = 60 happy cittizens with 0% on the lux slide.
IBT - renegotiate horse deal with babs for 9 more gpt.
10 - nothing much.

Summery: we are now at phony war with the Vikings. increase trade deal gpt a bit. Other than that - nothing.

I saw that SGOTM5 registration is up.
Do you want to enter as a team?
If so do you want to play the variant?