Getting GW and all the early MA wonders should give us the bump.....

.....As far as Firaxis score, we are gaining on both of these teams but this time includes our Golden Age. Its not clear if either team has had a GA yet. I'm was going to guess that Xteam had their GA happening between 1500 and 1250 as they had a 32 pt Firaxis bump, but they don't list a war until 900BC.
The graph on the uploads page is misleading for us, as we didn't settle Leptis Minor and therefore get full 5 city territory until turn 153. I think we will catch up once the graph advances that far.

I should add that we will be getting every single one of the MA wonders. :D (Turnlog on the way).

I am much more satisfied with these turns than my last set. :)

1350(0)- Trade Magnetism to Babylon for 114gpt, 31g + WM, and to India for 41gpt + 15g.
Trade Physics to Celts for 12gpt, 18g + WM, and to Ottomans for 17gpt, 76g + WM.
I move a musket from Hippo to Utica. I want to leave LMOZ1 well defended as it is our capital. Leaving the capital poorly defended is an open invitation to the AI to declare war.

IBT- Celts and Babylon both want to extend their peace treaties with us, I accept.

1355(1)- I move into position on the Roman border, cancel all deals with them, then declare war. I capture 2 slaves and move the troops over the border. I move the defenders out of Leptis Minor to draw the Roman troops towards it.

IBT- A Roman spear moves.

1360(2)- I bombard Caesaraugusta, 1 unit hit, 1 pop lost and the rest missed. I will try again next turn.
Bombard Byzantium, 2 hits, elite MDI attacks - no leader. I capture the town but there is nothing to sell, so I abandon it.

IBT- We discover steam power. Industrialization in 8 @ 100%. The HG is now obsolete, but our people are still happy. We have coal. :thumbsup:
I had a bad feeling that there would be none on our island, but I need not have worried.
There is one source 2 NE of Utica and the other 3NW of Leptis Minor. Utica gets an extra 2 shields from the coal.
I check which other civs have coal, the Persians, Babylonians and Germans have 2 each and the rest have none.

1365(3)- I start the workers around Utica building rails. I change production in all cities to workers to help build rails. I didn't want to do this before in case we had no coal.
Bombard Caesaraugusta. 3 hits. Elite MDI attacks - no leader. Elite horse attacks - no leader. The town is autorazed, but I capture 2 slaves.
The troops march on towards Pisae.

IBT- 2 Roman settler pairs spotted.

1370(4)- Bombard one pair. Elite MDI attacks - no leader, 2 slaves taken.

IBT- Celts declared war on the Persians.
Indians and Celts are building Magellan's.

1375(5)- I cancel the alliance with Germany against Greece.
I sign peace with the Greeks and get 6g + WM.
Bombard 2nd settler pair. Elite MDI attacks - no leader, 2 slaves taken.
I MM the cities for more food after building workers.

IBT- Persians found a city where Byzantium stood. Sorry guys, I forgot to block those tiles. However, this makes the decision on whether to eliminate Rome easy, as Persia can be used for future leader farming.

1380(6)- I am building granaries to recover the pop lost to workers more quickly. They can be sold when they are no longer needed (at size 20).

1385(7)- Bombard Pisae units to 1hp each. Elite horseman attacks - LEADER [dance]
Vet Knight attacks - no promotion. I capture Pisae, nothing to sell so I abandon it.
I send the leader to Utica.

IBT- A Roman spear makes a run at the undefended Leptis Minor. :lol:
3 civs have Military Tradition - Germany, India and Ottomans. I decide that we don't desperately need it in the next 3 turns, so I will wait and see what the team thinks about trading for it.

1390(8)- Bombard the suicide spear. Attack with a vet knight - no promotion.

IBT- Babylon demands spices. They are paying us 114gpt for another 12 turns, so I accept their demands. This will not be forgotten however! [pissed] Some alliances against them may be in order at some point in the future.
A Roman longbow appears.

1395(9)- Bombard longbow. Vet knight attacks - no promotion.

IBT- The Romans request an audience. I laugh at them.

1400(10)- I upgrade the elite* horseman to a knight.

Score: 687 (2nd to Babylon; 696), Jason 910.

The save:
1400AD SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_AD1400_01.SAV)

Notes:

Possible deals for ToG: Ottomans will give 13gpt + 35g + MTrad. Germans will give 3gpt + 374g + MTrad, Indians will give 35gpt + 74g + MTrad.
There are no other gpt deals available. The Germans and Ottomans are scientific and will receive a free tech if we make this trade.

Magellan's is now in 3. Industrialization in 1. The leader is in Utica. No-one has economics yet. Therefore here is my plan of action for Utica:

- Finish Magellan's, then rush USuff with leader. Then rush a factory and a coal plant, then hand build Smith's. Unless:

- If another civ gets economics before we build Magellan's, they will be able to switch to Smith's from a Magellan's prebuild. In that case, finish Magellan's, rush Smith's, rush a factory and coal plant, then hand build USuff.

The first option is best as USuff costs 200sh more than Smith's, so will take about 3 turns longer to build. We just have to hope no-one else gets economics.

For research, we should get economics next (in 4 turns), then medicine and sanitation so we can build hospitals.

I suggest we don't attack the Roman cities until the leader is used 4 turns from now. We can then use elites again. If a unit comes out towards Leptis Minor then it can be picked off with vets.

Utica will hit 10K culture and expand next turn.

I have built granaries in the other 4 cities to help with the worker production. When they get back to size 12, more workers should be built.

The plan is to fully develop all city tiles, then join the workers back once we get hospitals. Obviously we should get Utica up to size 20 first, then worry about the other cities.

We are currently 101 turns from 20K. This will reduce when we build Smith's and USuff. There are also 3 buildings that will double in culture during this time. We have only 2 sets of 10 turns each left at maximum.

I have set the builds in Hippo and Theveste as ironclads to defend our shores. Change them if you wish.

I am building cannons in Leptis Minor and LMOZ1, as I like to have 20-30 cannons/artillery for defence.

8 turns until we can remove Heidelburg. 10 until we can declare on Persia.

We could build the remaining embassies for 302g.

I have upgraded 3 caravels to galleons for 60g.

The two caravels at the N and S poles are fog clearing at the very edge of the map.

We have a total of 24 slaves.

EDIT: The tile improvements for size 20 cities are: RR all land tiles, mine all hills, mountains and tundra (obvious I know), then for each city:
Utica - mine all tiles
Leptis Minor - mine all tiles
Hippo - mine all tiles except one grass which should be irrigated.
LMOZ1 - Irrigate 3 plains and 4 grass. Mine the other 5 grass.
Theveste - Irrigate the sheep plains and all grass.

This assumes that all forests are chopped.


Roster:
fbouthil - up next
TimBentley - on deck (skipping until Tuesday, he should be back in time)
MOTH
Bede
Zakharov - just played

Here are two images from the latest save. The first is the southern front showing the decimated Romans and the new Persian town. The second shows the Utica rail construction project using the new coal mine. :)

Well done again.


If we can pick up MilTrad cheap then do it as the Academy makes a nice pre-build for 600 shield buildings and it looks like we can do it and still get all the cash and coin. As Zak said, though, no hurry to do it, and we could consider holding ToG until somebody researches Econ for us.

What have we got for trade bait for IA tech when we trade the other guys forward to the IA?

What have we got for trade bait for IA tech when we trade the other guys forward to the IA?
We have Steam Power and Industrialization. Hopefully they will get Medicine, but isn't it usually Nationalism in PTW? We also have wool to trade.

I don't think MilTrad is vital. As long as we have plenty of cannons/artillery then knights will be good enough to kill a 1hp unit. The rails will mean we need less units for defence, as they can move anywhere on the island. I have already connected all 5 cities. If we can get MilTrad cheap however, then go for it.

We have Leo's so the upgrade to cavalry will be cheap and we still need a prebuild greater than 300 shields (the Military Academy and an army are both 400 IIRC and the Academy itself is at least one culture point). As long as we can get all the gold and MilTrad I think it is a good deal.

Great setup Zakharov! Wow! :thumbsup:

My plan for tomorrow night (I do not have the time to play tonight and want the team opinion):

I need units to disband in Utica to rush the factory and coal plant in 1t each. I could use the cannon and the knight already there, but I think it would be best if I brought 2 vet NuMercs from the stack near Neapolis.
Since we are less than 2 rounds from victory, I will wipe the romans from face of the simulated earth. If we are getting a GL, it should be as soon as the current GL is consumed or never. Building a 3cpt wonder in 1t instead of 10t only gives us 27 more culture. Of course the next wonders will also be 9t faster, so I think a GL should give us victory 1t or 2t faster now and even less later.
I am wondering what exactly you mean by cheap price for MTrad, but India would trade it + 74g + 35gpt for ToG or alone for Wool + 660g. Are those deals good enough?
There is only one land tile that Utica cannot labor at size 12. I do not think getting hospitals should be the priority. To reinforce my point, here is a small prediction on the timeline (correct me if I make mistakes):


Production in Utica:
(3) Magellan
(4) USuff
(5) Factory
(6) Coal Plant
(16) Smith
(20) Last turn we can use the palace as prebuild for ToE
(22) Last turn we can use the MilAcad as prebuild for ToE
(26) ToE

Research:
(1) Industrialisation
(5) Economics
(12) Medicine
(22) Electricity
(29) Scientific Method (same research cost as Medicine according to editor)

If we do not want to lose any production on something else than culture in Utica, we have no choice but to trade or gift scientific civs into IA until we can trade Medicine with them. We certainly do not have time to make a detour by Sanitation (6t or 7t to research). Even so, we may have to slow down production in Utica for a turn or two.

Of course, if someone has a trick up his sleave to know in advance what the free tech of other civs will be, it would help. I always thought it was random, but I am not sure.

The only culture I see after ToE is MilAcad, IAgency, Hoover and a palace. All at 400sh/cpt. Can we build Hoover? Civilopedia says we only need a river to build it, but I think we need Mountains also, but I am not sure of that either.

So, I think we should wait until we have researched espionage & electronics before researching sanitation.

One last thing: IMHO, we have plenty of cannons for now. Should I switch every city to factory in 1t?

Hospitals are good for milking the score: more population, more happy people, higher score, though I would not make a research detour to get them.

It's like MilTrad, if somebody else does the research buy it and build them everywhere but Utica.

I wouldn't sweat factories other than Utica unless we have nothing more useful to build. The most expensive military unit we can build is 80 shields and RRing should get us to the 20 needed for cavalry in 4. In other words, keep building cannons.

On the trades for ToG, just make sure to get all the gold and gpt you can first, then go for MilTrad and pay cash only if you can and we can afford it.

The only culture I see after ToE is MilAcad, IAgency, Hoover and a palace. All at 400sh/cpt. Can we build Hoover? Civilopedia says we only need a river to build it, but I think we need Mountains also, but I am not sure of that either.
Hoover can be built in any city that has a river anywhere in its city radius. Utica is on a river so it most certainly meets this condition. I have never heard of a mountain being needed, I'm sure it's only the river.

Regarding the trade, I think you should wait until we have Magellan's built, then decide what to do. If another civ gets economics, you will have to trade for it and rush Smith's to break the wonder cascade. Otherwise you will be free to rush USuff and then go back for Smith's and trade the other civs into the IA.

The reason I suggest hospitals is because a size 20 city will produce a lot more commerce, and therefore a lot more science than a size 12 city. Your timelines do appear to suggest it may not be worth the effort, though if Utica needs to slow its prebuilds, it will have time to get a hospital.

I say wait until we have economics, by research or by trade and then make the decision. If the AI civs are not already in the IA, trade them into it and see what the free techs are. If medicine is one of the free ones, then trade for it and go for sanitation. If medicine is not available for trade, then maybe ignore sanitation.

Remember that Babylon is not a scientific civ in this game. Only Greece, Germany, Persia and the Ottomans are. I suggest you trade all four into the IA at the same time to give them the maximum chance of getting Nationalism and Medicine as free techs.

You are right that there is not much culture to be had in the IA. If we can boost our science, we may be able to get a research lab and a modern wonder (SETI?) which could shave another turn off of our finish date.

For the MTrad trade, I suggest you wait until you have got the scientific civs into the IA, then you may be able to tack it onto an IA tech trade, eg. Steam Power + lux/gold for Nationalism + MTrad.

I need units to disband in Utica to rush the factory and coal plant in 1t each. I could use the cannon and the knight already there, but I think it would be best if I brought 2 vet NuMercs from the stack near Neapolis.
Now we have rails, you can bring units to Utica on the same turn. Have a look at my post #245 for some suggested units to disband. I would leave the cannons and knights as they are our most up to date units. Disband the NuMercs, archers and MDIs first. I also think the army can go, as it is only NuMercs. The cannon/knight attack combo means the army is not being used.

I say wait until we have economics, by research or by trade and then make the decision. If the AI civs are not already in the IA, trade them into it and see what the free techs are. If medicine is one of the free ones, then trade for it and go for sanitation. If medicine is not available for trade, then maybe ignore sanitation.
If you read my timeline, you will see that at the current research rate, SMethod comes 7t too late, so we cannot even research medicine ourself, even less sanitation! After SMethod, I could agree to go for sanitation, but I will disagree with researching it before.

@Bede: Ok. No factory & keep building cannons.

@Zakharov: I am pretty sure I can get MTrad in the deals that put the scientific civs into IA.

I have one final thought about the question of which wonder to rush, USuff or Smith's. If another civ does start building Smith's with their Magellan's prebuild, you could investigate that city and see how far along they are with it. If you see that you can rush USuff, factory and a coal plant, then hand build Smith's before they do, then go for it. With full RR around Utica, it only needs about 12-13 turns to build Smith's.

I would much rather rush USuff if possible.

EDIT: I just realised that with a factory and a coal plant, Utica will be producing around 65 shields, so will build Smith's (600sh) in 9-10 turns. So, if the investigated city will take longer than about 15 turns to build Smith's then rush USuff. I think we have a good shot at this tactic as no AI cities can match Utica's production.

To reinforce my point, here is a small prediction on the timeline (correct me if I make mistakes):

Production in Utica:
(3) Magellan
(4) USuff
(5) Factory
(6) Coal Plant
(16) Smith
(20) Last turn we can use the palace as prebuild for ToE
(22) Last turn we can use the MilAcad as prebuild for ToE
(26) ToE

Research:
(1) Industrialisation
(5) Economics
(12) Medicine
(22) Electricity
(29) Scientific Method (same research cost as Medicine according to editor)

If we do not want to lose any production on something else than culture in Utica, we have no choice but to trade or gift scientific civs into IA until we can trade Medicine with them. We certainly do not have time to make a detour by Sanitation (6t or 7t to research). Even so, we may have to slow down production in Utica for a turn or two.

Of course, if someone has a trick up his sleave to know in advance what the free tech of other civs will be, it would help. I always thought it was random, but I am not sure.

The only culture I see after ToE is MilAcad, IAgency, Hoover and a palace. All at 400sh/cpt. Can we build Hoover? Civilopedia says we only need a river to build it, but I think we need Mountains also, but I am not sure of that either.

A trick up my sleave? Maybe. I think we should build the Palace immediately after we build Smith's. The corruption/waste savings could cut a turn off of some wonders. It will also mean we don't need to slow down Utica (or at least not as much) before we build Toe. The +1 culture per turn might cut another turn or 2 off of our finish date.

We can build Hoover with just a river, no mountain needed.

Mark me down for a skip. I've got an out of state funeral to attend on wed-thurs. I'll be back Friday.

I might be able to comment on wed afternoon before I drive up to vermont. I'm not sure when I'll be back on Thursday.

I will play after supper. Revised plan:
- Bring units to Utica to disband rush the factory & coal plant. I will disband as much units suggested by Zakharov as I can without lacking units for blockade: archer (elite*), 5 Mace (elite* + 4 vet), 3 NuMercs (vet), 1 army.
- Investigate the cities that used Magellan as prebuild for Smith (if there are any) to determine if Smith or USuff should be rushed.
- Once economics is known, trade the scientific civ into IA to trade for medicine. If I cannot trade for medicine, then we will have to build a palace before ToE.
- Once Magellan is finished, eliminate the romans as a last effort to get a GL.
- Try not to enter a per turn deal with Germany since we want control of the Ivory (I will bring troop over there, but I won't declare war).

I will check here before I start playing in case you have other comments.

This plan seems good. I know it's obvious but remember not to disband all those units on the factory, save at least one for the coal plant, otherwise the rush cost will be doubled.

We don't need to block every single tile. I don't mind if the AI builds cities SW and SE of Leptis Minor, or on the eastern gap N of Utica. We do need to make sure the gap NE of Leptis Minor is blocked (iron), along with the ivory area once Heidelburg is gone.

I think we want to look at building the Palace before ToE anyway. Its cheap for 1cpt and won't affect the date that we get ToE by more than a couple of turns. The reduced waste should help for other wonder builds.

I have returned. Don't bother looking for any comments from me.

I have returned. Don't bother looking for any comments from me.
Just in time. You're up once fbouthil posts the save. :)

@MOTH I agree about the Palace. We will have the MilAcad as a prebuild soon, so the extra culture and decreased waste from the Palace will be very useful.

1400AD (preturn)
Wake a lot of units for disbanding in Utica. Also move 4 knights from the stack near Neapolis to fill the holes in the blockades.
IBT
Research:Industrialisation -> Economics at 100% in 4t, -11gpt since anything less puts it in 5t.
1405AD (1)
mmf in a few cities as I consider growth more important than production at this time.
IBT
India learns economics. :aargh:
1410AD (2)
Trade ToG to India for economics + 63gpt + 230g
Switch research to electricity in 10t at 100%.
Trade ToG to Ottomans for 17gpt + 18g + WM. They get SP as free tech.
Trade ToG to Germany for 325g + WM. They get medicine as free tech but want SP, economics, WM & 1890g for it.
Trade ToG to Persia for WM + 8g. They also get medicine as free tech and I get it against SP.
Leave Greece behind as they do not have anything interesting to give me at the moment.
To determine if I should almost give SP + Med to India so he cannot trade economics with other civs, I investigate Lahore for 140g. Magellan is due in 21t.
Trade SP + Med to India for 9gpt + MTrad + 1g
We are now at +74gpt and research still at 100%.
Finished improving around Utica. Production of 34sh after corruption.
IBT
Utica: Magellan->USuff. Only India cascades to Smith even if Persia and Germany manage to get economics.
1415AD (3)
Since Lahore was 21t from building Magellan, I rush USuff.
Attack Neapolis and ... [dance]

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Bede_SG004_1415AD_GL.JPG

Abandon the city and send Hamilcar to Utica.
Upgrade some knights.
IBT
A longbowman goes out of Brundisium.
Utica: USuff -> Smith
1420AD (4)
Rush Smith.
Kill the longbowman
IBT
Utica:Smith->Factory
Produce 2 ironclad heading for Utica.
1425AD (5)
Disband 5 units (Mace & NuMerc) in Utica and rush the factory.
IBT
Utica:Factory->Coal Plant, production up to 51 after corruption.
1430AD (6)
Disband an archer (5sh), a NuMerc (7sh) and the NuMerc army (100sh), Utica can build the rest himself, no need to rush the coal plant.
Attack Brundisium and ... :banana:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Bede_SG004_1430AD_GL.JPG

Send Mago to Utica, but will keep it in reserve, probably for ToE.
Brundisium gets to live until the GL is used.
IBT
Celt and Persia make peace.
A Celtic settler comes to take the place of destroyed Neapolis with an escort of 2 maces
Utica: Coal Plant -> Palace, production up to 68sh. groucho
1435AD (7) - :sleep:

IBT
Richborough founded.
Our silk deal expire.
1440AD - 1450AD (8 - 10)
We lose our supply or horses and many deals giving us gpt with India and Ottoman expire.

We are down to -117gpt and could build wealth in every city except Utica. We can also trade Industry to Ottoman & India for over 20gpt each and horses from India.

The palace will be finished in 2t. The MilAcad can be built after in 6t. We can then rush ToE, get to Electronics to build Hoover in around 12t. In that time, we should research espionage for intelligence agency. If we have time before Hoover is finished, then sanitation should be research before espionage.

We can make war with Germany and wipe Rome when the GL is used, in about 8t. We could make war with Germany earlier if we want to make sure our ivory does not get cut, but I would prefer having chances of getting GL even if it is remote.

We can trade wool in exchange of silk with Celt.

Our new 20K victory date is 1790AD. :D

Score: 710
Jason: 940

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_AD1450_01.SAV)

@MOTH I agree about the Palace. We will have the MilAcad as a prebuild soon, so the extra culture and decreased waste from the Palace will be very useful.
Sooner than you might think. :D

Roster:
TimBentley - up
MOTH - on deck
Bede
Zakharov
fbouthil - just played and got very lucky with GL (2 GL in 4 attacks). :rotfl:

Idea: Should we sell or give techs at bargain prices to accelerate research so we have the chance of building modern wonders? We will run out of culture buildings to build in Utica in about 20t and I don't think we should keep any as wonder prebuild. IMHO, even 1cpt for the time of the IA is better than getting a 3cpt wonder 5t earlier in the MA.

Nicely done, fb.

To cement our position it may be time to foment another overseas conflict.

I quite agree that 1cpt for however long the game lasts is worth more more than 3cpt sometime later.

Keep the people smiling and the culture rolling in...

Outstanding!

We will still have 400 shield pre-build in the form of an Army!

I'd say, yes lets get tech rolling full speed ahead with the help of all the Scientific (and even non-scientific) civs.

I should be skipped after Tim's turn as I'll be away for a funeral.

Got it. I will play tomorrow.

:band: :rockon:

2 leaders = great turns :goodjob:

So the plan now is:

- research sci. method, then set research to atomic theory at 0%.
- rush ToE, get atomic theory and electronics for free, set research to sanitation.
- build Hoover, attack final Roman city with elites, (get another leader :mischief: ).
- after sanitation, research (or trade for) nationalism and espionage.
- build hospitals and grow cities to size 20 for score and extra commerce.
- build MilAcad and Intelligence Agency in Utica. (Rush a hospital first?)
- research only required techs to get to the Modern Age as fast as possible.

Who said this game was difficult? :crazyeye: :D

We are now 80 turns from victory, and this should decrease further with the next few wonders. If we can get to the modern age, we will only be able to shave a turn or two off the finish date, but that is better than nothing so go ahead with using the AI to help us. Just don't trade them electronics until we have built Hoover.

To cement our position it may be time to foment another overseas conflict.
Is this necessary? None of the AI civs are approaching domination, and a war will only slow down the tech pace.

@Zak,
You're right. I had my epic hat on when I wrote that.

So the plan now is:

- research sci. method, then set research to atomic theory at 0%.
- rush ToE, get atomic theory and electronics for free, set research to sanitation.
- build Hoover, attack final Roman city with elites, (get another leader :mischief: ).

I'm not sure what the timing is on sci method and the Palace build, but it may be possible to pre-build ToE within a few turns and then rush Hoover with the leader we have now. I'm at work so I can't look at the save and first thing after work I am driving out of state. Unless Civ Assist will show me anything...

Good point MOTH! Should we rush ToE or Hoover?

Research:
(1) Electricity
(7 or 8) S. Method

Production, rushing ToE:
(2) Palace -> 1cpt_____20c
(8) MAcad -> 1cpt_____14c
(9) ToE -> 3cpt________39c
(21) Hoover -> 2cpt_____2c
Total culture on turn 22: 75c

Procution, rushing Hoover:
(2) Palace -> 1cpt_______20c
(12) ToE -> 3cpt________30c
(13) Hoover -> 2cpt_____18c
(19) MAcad -> 1cpt______3c
Total culture on turn 22: 71c

Well, not a big difference, but rushing ToE gives 4 more culture. As a bonus, we are still in a position to use another GL immediately if we are lucky enough to get another one.

If we concentrate on the gold lauriel, then espionage would have to come before sanitation. At that point, we can gift the Greeks into IA in hope they get nationalism as free tech.

I would not hold on electronics if it helps us as no one can build Hoover as fast as Utica (unless they can get a GL).

Note: There is a pile of units to disband when the opportunity comes (probably hospitals) on a hill near the German ivory city. I did not know the army was 100sh when disbanded, otherwise I would have disbanded more units for the factory.

I probably built too much cav. At some point, I thought I should build some before the horse deal would finish.

We will be able to use factories as prebuild for the hospitals.

Civ Assist is giving me wacky numbers. According to CivAssist: its 3 turns to Electricity and 16 more turns (estimate) to Scientific Method. It also lists Utica at 105 spt.

Its 2 turns until the Palace build according to the post above. We should be able to have ToE 2 turns after Scientific Method and if we use the leader for Hoover we get that 3 turns after Scientific Method.
Culture figures:

turn leader on ToE leader on Hoover
0 get ToE 3 culture -
1 6 culture -
2 9 culutre get ToE 3 Culture
3 12 culture get Hoover 8 culture
4 15 13
5 18 18
6 21 23
7 24 28
8 get Hoover 29 33


So, if we use the leader on hoover we get 4 more culture in the long term plus we have 6 turns where we could build stuff (Hospital pre-build?) to get ready to get Battlefield Medicine.

MilAcad: costs 400 = 4 turns
Army pre-build: costs 400? = 4 turns
ToE: costs 600 = 6 turns
Hoover: costs 800 = 8 turns

Another thing, if we build 5 hospitals we can build battlefield medicine for 500 and 1 cpt. I think we should head to sanitation after Electronics and before Espionage.

Edit after fb's post: are my numbers off on how long production takes or is fb's. I was assuming that we would be able to build MilAcad before ToE.

I can confirm that Utica is producing 68 uncorrupted shields, not 105. I saw this with CivAssist too and I don't know how it gets that number.

We should be able to research sci method in 7 turns (plus 1 turn for electricity). The Palace finishes in 2 and the MilAcad takes 6, so both will be finished on the turn we get sci method. We can then rush ToE the following turn.

I would rather rush ToE than Hoover, as we will have a (small) chance of getting another leader that way.

I jokingly said in the Spoiler that maybe we would also get the Wooden Spoons in additional to the Golden Laurels. I think with all of the leaders at key times that we must be just about a lock for the Golden Laurels.

Now its time for a radical idea:
Lets think about really going after the Wooden Spoons too for an additional challange.

We are maybe 15-20 turns from when we could build 5 Hospitals and thus Battlefield Medicine. And maybe 75 turns from winning. If we were to abandon all of our cities except Utica (which we would get to at least size 20) our score would start to slow down significantly due to the lost population and territory. We would essentially be finishing the game as 1CC.

What does the team think about this idea?

What does the team think about this idea?
Nice idea but I don't think it would work. If we do get the gold laurel it will mean we get a larger Jason bonus than any other team, which in turn will boost our score past the other teams.

With all teams playing the variant, we have a better chance of getting the green laurel than the wooden spoon. :)

Wall Street is a good small wonder for culture (300 shields, 2cpt), so the corporation is another possibility for research. I'll probably build the palace and military academy, rush ToE, start Hoover's, try to trade for nationalism (if possible), consider the costs and benefits of the possible research paths, and try to get another leader (or more than one). And I won't try for the wooden spoon.

Team Offa has jumped ahead of us in the base score and the last message in their thread is one from mad-bax. From the spoiler, they were going for Conquest. I'm going to guess that they finished their conquest win in 860AD. Can we figure out what the Jason date might be for Conquest as opposed to 20K and see if we stil look good with our target date?

If the date doesn't look good then we should consider if we can get to Diplo before we get to 20K.

We need to concentrate on two things: max culture in Utica and max happy population. So anything that boosts culture in Utica and happiness and population elsewhere will be the biggest determinants of the scoring.

The advantage we have over Offa is that our cities will be larger and the population more content. As for scoping the Jason score I have no idea how to do it.

Team Offa has jumped ahead of us in the base score and the last message in their thread is one from mad-bax. From the spoiler, they were going for Conquest. I'm going to guess that they finished their conquest win in 860AD. Can we figure out what the Jason date might be for Conquest as opposed to 20K and see if we stil look good with our target date?

If the date doesn't look good then we should consider if we can get to Diplo before we get to 20K.
We will get a diplo win at about the same time as a 20K win. If you look at relative Jason dates on the calculator section of the GOTM page, you will see that 20K has the latest date of the 6 win types.

As an example, here are the Jason best dates from GOTM28:
Conquest 1200AD
Cultural 20k 1760AD
Cultural 100k 1555AD
Diplomatic 1010AD
Domination 970AD
Space Race 1330AD

Therefore we will be better off sticking to the 20K target.

Obviously an 860AD conquest win would easily beat us for the gold laurel, but it is too late to do anything about that now. Personally I believe the Jason scoring system is skewed towards Conquest and Domination wins. Granted it's not as bad as the Firaxis scoring system, but it is skewed nonetheless. 860AD is 34 turns before the Jason best conquest date. 34 turns before the 20K date is 1605AD. I don't see how we could have got a 20K win by that date, but I'm sure it is possible to get a conquest win even before 860AD.

The Jason 'best date' should be just that, the earliest possible date to win by each victory condition. However, many conquest/domination wins are achieved well before the 'best date', whilst it is very difficult to get a peaceful win before the 'best date'.

Anyway I'm just ranting here. :gripe: If Team Offa did get a victory in 860AD then they must have played a very good game. I just think that a good conquest/domination win will always outscore and outpace (relative to Jason best date) a 20K, diplo or spaceship win. It is a flaw in the scoring system rather than a gripe against other teams which has me frustrated.

Well that is just my opinion.

I am no expert, but I think the Jason score is made of 2 parts: date bonus and score bonus. I think a peaceful victory type would normally give a smaller date bonus and a bigger score bonus. That is certainly not as much true as in a normal game because of the 5CC.

Therefore, unless mad-bax has taken the variant into account in the Jason scoring (which I doubt since it would mean the teams playing the variant would not have the same Jason best date than those not playing the variant), going for a 20K victory was a mistake. :sad:

I have never realized how much understanding the Jason scoring system was so important before. In GOTM, I usually concentrate on winning as fast as possible and do some efforts in milking. I probably never do enough milking as I have always considered that part boring. :sleep:

Anyway, I think the 20K victory was probably much more fun than a conquest victory (which is much closer to my usual type of game). Therefore, I do not regret going for that victory type. I will consider ourselves winners if we are the fastest of the teams going for that victory type and will award ourselves a custom laurel. How about a silver laurel? :D

If team Offa won a 860 AD conquest victory, they did very well indeed, considering the best conquest date in GOTM 28 was in 950 AD. Therefore I do not think Offa won in 860 AD. Regardless, we shall be sticking to the 20k victory, which I still think seems like the victory slowed least by the city number restriction. I'll start playing in a few minutes.

To put everybody's mind a little at rest I spent some time studying the Jason scoring. There is a huge modifier applied for a 20K victory. It is about 3.125X the modifier for a conquest victory, so even with a 860AD victory I think the approach we are taking remains sound and winnable.

The great equalizer is the 5cc limitation. The territorial and population values for a conquest win under normal GOTM conditions are just not here.

1450(0)-sell wool to Celts for silks, 2gpt, 1g, TM
switch LMOZ1 to courthouse, MM it for more gold
MM Hippo for more gold
switch Hippo to ironclad
MM Leptis Minor for more food and gold
reduce science to 90% (barely possible)

IBT-learn electricity, start on scientific method (7 turns)
Leptis Minor worker->wealth
Theveste ironclad->ironclad

1455(1)-it would take 445gpt to get scientific method in 6 turns; keep science at 90%
MM LMOZ1 to max shields
MM Theveste to max shields
MM Hippo for more food, gold

IBT-Utica palace->military academy
build a better gate and a connection to the left wing of the palace
Germany drops off settler and musketman in northeast

1460(2)-odd, corruption is now lower
oh, I forgot a more distant palace lowers corruption
MM Theveste for more production
MM Hippo for more shields and more gold
MM Leptis Minor for more shields and more food
MM LMOZ1 for more gold

IBT-Germany founds Nuremburg
LMOZ1 courthouse->wealth, MM it for more shields (causing more gold)

1465(3)-switch Leptis Minor to musketman
chop forests near Leptis Minor, MM it for more gold
MM Theveste for more gold

IBT-Theveste ironclad->wealth
Hippo ironclad->wealth, MM it for more nonscientific income

1470(4)-zzz

IBT-Leptis Minor musketman->wealth, MM it for max gold

1475(5)-zzz

1480(6)-zzz

1485(7)-zzz

IBT-learn scientific method, research set to atomic theory at 0%
Utica military tradition->ToE

1490(8)-rush ToE
sell magnetism to Greece for incense, horses, world map, 1g
they learn steam power
sell electricity to Persia for WM, 247g, 146gpt
sell electricity to India for WM, 18g, 43gpt
if research was at 100%, everyone would be happy, income would be +95gpt
send troops into Roman territory
set research to corporation (for Wall Street)

IBT-Utica ToE->Hoover
learn atomic theory and electronics
Celts drop settler and pikeman in southeast
build connection to right wing of palace

1495(9)-India and Ottomans know nationalism
bombardment of Brundisium isn't very helpful
elite MDI dies, elite MDI wins, elite NuMerc wins, elite NuMerc wins to capture Brundisium
no improvements to sell, abandon the city
Fledging Romans are destroyed
start research on sanitation, since Hoover will take 12 turns

IBT-build on connection to right wing of palace
Celts found city

1500(10)-zzz

Notes: War with Germany should start when elite units have healed
Cities should be switched to factory prebuilds for hospitals soon
Once hospitals are built, workers should be merged into cities. Roman workers will never be unhappy due to aggression against the mother country.
Nationalism can be bought from India or Ottomans. Consider selling industrialization.
CivAssist says victory will come in 1784

Here is the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_AD1500_01.SAV).

got it. the hotel has free internet. I'll play by late this evening.

Once hospitals are built, workers should be merged into cities. Roman workers will never be unhappy due to aggression against the mother country.
This is a good point. Now that we have defeated the Romans, a Roman citizen in our towns is exactly the same as one of our citizens. We just need to make sure we keep enough slaves to deal with pollution.

Join native workers first (to save on support), then use Roman slaves if necessary. Do not use slaves of other nationality.

Nationalism can be bought from India or Ottomans. Consider selling industrialization.
We can wait a few turns before we need it. Hopefully someone else will get Nationalism so it will be cheaper. When we get sanitation, we should research the Corporation so that we can get Wall Street (with 5 stock exchanges). Wall Street is 300sh/2cpt, the IntAgency is 400sh/1cpt. Therefore we should go for Wall Street first.

There is a huge modifier applied for a 20K victory. It is about 3.125X the modifier for a conquest victory...
If this is true than I will be very happy. :)

Most of what I was going to suggest has already been written by other players, but I would not hold on industrialisation since we want to accelerate research.

Should we bring someone else against Germany in hope it does not bring someone else against us? Probably not, but I just want to bring the point for discussion.

I agree on researching the corporation. I think we may be able to buy replaceable parts and flight from the AIs.

Nice progress.

I love it when a plan works out.

The scoring graph now goes up to turn 110. We are all set to put the staff team into last place. :mischief:

As Zakharov has mentioned we have plenty of cav, so the 2 Maces near Heidelburg can be disbanded when Utica builds a hospital. The Caravel next to Utica can also be disbanded. Clearly, the 2 elite* in Utica also. We just need to keep one to rush a stock exchange once the Battlefield Medicine is built.

Leptis Magna, Theveste and Hippo should start prebuilding a hospital next turn. Leptis Minor can wait one more turn before starting its prebuild because of its extra production.

I think there is no point in keeping Leptis Minor undefended since Rome is dead.

0-1500 Started factories in Theveste, Hippo, LMOZ1
Trade Industry and Electricity for Nationalism from Ottomans
Trade Industry to India for 35GPT and all their gold.
Trade Electricity to Germany for 123G.
Medicine to Celts for 5GPT + change
Industry to Persia for 18gpt+40
Gift some 1st level techs to see if any GPT opens up next turn to Babylon, Celts, Greece, Persia. By definition they were probably researching these.

IBT - pollution in Utica.

1-1505 - clean up pollution. Leptis Minor starts Factory.
Persia has some more money- trade wool for 6gpt.
Declare war on Germany. Move into territory. I don't bring anyone in on the war as we want to be able to finish soon.

IBT - Celts want a MPP and ROP - no.

2-1510 Bomb Heidelberg - redline 2 spears and kill a citizen. Attack with Elite Merc and Elite MDI both win but no promo. Other Elite Mercs in position for Nurenberg.
Ghandi's got money trade Scientific Method for 74gpt.
Ottomon's got money trade SciMet for 16gpt
Gift everyone up to Scientific Method to hope they research something good.

3-1515 Bomb Nurenberg with a few cannon and bring over the rest. There's only 1 musket that's now 3/4 so I chance the 2 Elite Mercs which lose and put the musket at 2/5. Adjust sliders for Sanitation still in 2.

4-1520 Bomb again and attack with Elite MDI wins and no promo. Adjust sliders for Sanitation in 1.

IBT - Sanitation>Corporation in 6.

5-1525 Switch Factories to Hospitals in 1.
Germany wil give us peace straight up. I take it and then Industy for 22 GPT.
I trade Sanitation for money to try and get the reasearch rate going.
to celts for 42gpt. to India for 25gpt. to Ottomons for 16gpt. to Babylon for 11gpt.

IBT - 4 Hospitals>Wealth.

6-1530 Join in native workers and all but 8 roman workers and 1 indian worker. Cities are now size 19, 19, 18, 18, 12. MM for food so they can grow to 20. Corporation is now in 4 at 100% with +320gpt. 12 happy and 1 content the rest sad in each city, so once we can lower research we can get more happy faces. Stock Exchanges are 200shields, so factory pre-builds started in Hippo, LMOZ1, and Theveste. Oops missed a few native and other workers - cities are now 20,20,20,19.

IBT - Ghandi wants Ivory and I give in as we are getting lots of gpt. Persia has a knight in our land and a couple settler pairs nearby. The people love me - I add a second story attaching the left wing. Is the palace complete now? WLTKD stops due to unhappiness.

7-1535 I check that the settler pairs have no where to go and fill in one spot on old wool. I notice a barb camp and send Cav but no promo. Adjust Sliders.

IBT - Persia founds Sidon in the South. Polution near Leptis Minor.

8-1540 With only 9 slave workers we can't clear polution in one turn. Start factory in Leptis Minor (I should have done this earlier).

IBT - Germans talk and want an Alliance vs the Greeks. I say no. More Polution near LMOZ1 in hills.

9-1545 Adjust sliders. Clear 1 Polution.

IBT - Learn The Corporation. Start on Espionage in 4 but this can be vetoed.

10-1550 Switch cities to Stock Exchanges. All workers on auto-polution detail. Polution will be cleared in 3.

Situation: Hoover in 1 turn. Cities are pretty stable at size 20. Leptis Minor has enough food that we can get some occasion workers our of it. There are only 2 trades worth considering: Babylon Spices for 3 gpt and Celts Spices or Atomic Theory for gpt.

Civ Assist won't run for my save, so I couldn't update the 20K date.

Firaxis: 755
Jason: 1000

the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_AD1550_01.SAV)

Rotation:
Bede
Zakharov
fbouthil
TimBentley
MOTH

Looking good. I'm too tired to examine the save but the victory date has not changed (not surprising considering no cultural buildings were built) from 1784. Utica should probably build a hospital, a stock exchange, Wall Street, the Intelligence Agency, and Battlefield Medicine.

Got it.

Will carry on carrying on.

I know we have a reduced work force now, but to maximize score, I think we should irrigate every grassland, except those around Utica. It will let the cities grow beyond size 20 and the specialist should be entertainers to get more happy population. Besides, we are mostly building wealth so production is not very important except in Utica.

The specialist in Zak#1 should be an entertainer for the same reason.

I would still make workers in Leptis Minor until we have enough to clear one tile of pollution in 1t.

I shouldn't have pumped quite as many workers into the cities as I did, but I wanted to maximize commerce to reduce research time. It did cut one turn off of The Corporation. We do need to get workers back when we can so that we can keep up with pollution. During my turns I irrigated a couple of tiles. If we concentrate first on irrigating in Leptis Minor then we can build back more workers as time goes by. It already has a good amount of surplus food and each irrigation pushes this up by 2 I think. I think most of the workers built will be slaves again for a while. We should be able to build another worker as soon as the Stock Exchange is finished (2 turns) and then everytime L.Minor is scheduled to grow. Once we have enought slaves then L.Minor can keep building the workers to pump into the other cities, with Utica being first since the wonders will help keep everyone happy longer.

I think the only cities that can grow fast are L.Minor and Hippo, but LMOZ1 and Theveste should be able to grow a bit above 20 as well.

Specialist in ZAK#1? He will need to go back to work once the polution is cleared.

Some random thoughts... :)

The coal plant in Utica should be sold when Hoover is complete.

The caravels can be disbanded.

After espionage we should research replaceable parts to get double speed workers. We will also be able to see if we have any rubber in our territory. After RP we should get refining so we can see the oil resources. If we have none, then wait until we have the techs required to build oil units (tanks, destroyers etc.), then trade the civs with oil up to refining so we can trade for it.

We can upgrade our 20 muskets to rifles for 400g. The stronger our units the less likely we are to be attacked.

We can operate Leptis Minor as a 1 turn worker pump by irrigating 10 grass tiles. By irrigating 3 grass it will grow in 2 turns (turn 1 - wealth, turn 2 - worker).

Utica needs to be size 20 as soon as it gets a hospital. Copernicus' and Newton's will boost the science output of 20 tiles worked considerably. We are producing so much gold from trades that we can support native workers. I suggest joining the 8 Roman slaves to Utica and pumping native workers from the other cities to deal with pollution.

Gentlemen, we all think so much alike, it is scary. (m-b will probably bust up this team next round :mischief: )

Here's the log:

If we are serious about accelerating the worldwide research pace we need to put additional income or luxuries in the hands of the other nations, depending on the state of their people.

There is a silks deal with the Celts expiring so do a little fact finding before renegotiating. The Celt capitol is mostly happy, 10 of 12, is generating 74gpt but spending only 40% on research. So buy silks from him for 25gpt (way over market but we can afford it), but don't offer luxuries, as they are not needed, and hope he turns the cash to good use.

India has a very happy population in Delhi so doesn't need any luxuries from us. Gahndi too is only contributing 40% to science, probably as a result of the sums he is paying us for past deals. Renegotiate the furs deal sending India 25gpt also.

The Greeks are hurting for spare cash as they are only spending 30% on research and Athens only generates 40gpt. Not going to see much in the way of research from them, probably the result of their war with Germany.

Germany is also at 30% science and their capitol is showing signs of war weariness. Ship them spices for their World Map (all they have to spend). Their real problem is that they only have four cities...

The Ottomans appear the strongest with their capitol earning 111gpt and a mostly happy population and a science budget of 60%.

Persia is doing "Okay", mostly happy in the capitol and a 40% science budget and 65gpt.

Babylon is aso in the OK category, though they could use some luxuries and a government change, so I ship them some spice for 8g, and wool for another 8.

Wrote TimB: Utica should probably build a hospital, a stock exchange, Wall Street, the Intelligence Agency, and Battlefield Medicine.

Will make it so.

Hoover Dam comes in right on schedule and Utica starts its hospital due in 3. (Forgot to sell the coal plant, next player please fix on T0)

1555
Babylon comes along demanding The Corporation and gets it.

1560
Cash rush the hospital in Utica.

1565
Disband Obsolete* units in Utica and cash rush Stock Exchange

1570
Merge Roman slaves into Utica.

1575
Learn Espionage and start single scientist run on Replaceable Parts. Turn up the happy meter. I want to buy the next few techs from the other guys. THere is nothing critical to our victory.

1580
Replace Roman slaves with native workers (more efficient at clearing pollution)

1585
Clearing pollution

1590
Renew incense deal with Greece for 25gpt.

Wall Street comes in, start Intelligence Agency in Utica (same cpt value as BatMed but 100 shields cheaper)

1595
Clearing Pollution

1600
Upgrade all muskets to rifles.

We have the cash and income to use our embassies effectively to measure the progress of the other nations in developing technology so I would be inclined to use it. Investigate each capitol at the start of any trading rounds then try to take whatever steps necessary to keep 'em happy and researching rather than fighting wars woth each other or us. The scary thing right now is that three of the six (Ottomans, Celts and Babylon) have read the Commnist Manifesto. The good thing is that no one is in anarchy as of 1600.

I concur that starting irrigation projects to bump the population is an added component to our score. We could irrigate the Leptii to ~30spt (infantry in three) and keep barracks there, then irrigate the other two (Theveste and Hippo) to max population growth, sell the barracks (if any) and if needed short rush artillery out of them.

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_AD1600_01.SAV)

Firaxis score: 782
Jason score: 1035

Win Date 1780 ~45 turns to go.

Got it. I will play now. :)

I will increase science as I want RP for the double speed workers, then I will slow it down again.

I will probably trade for Communism at some point as a police station will be useful in Hippo and Leptis Minor. One corrupted commerce can be turned into several gold/science due to banks/universities etc. I don't know if a police station will make a difference in the other 3 cities.

I don't think getting to the modern age is all that important. We will only be a few turns from victory by then. Additional culture at that point will probably make no difference to our finishing date.

Since we are now just coasting to the end, I will do the irrigation needed to boost our pop. This is all the more reason to get RP and get quicker workers.

Looking at the save, I see we are 7 techs from ModA and if we turn up research to 70% (maximum to still have only happy people), it will take us at least 7t per tech. It seems unlikely that the other civs will help us research fast enough to get there in time to build a ModA wonder. Even if we do, it will be in the last few turns and at 120cpt, it is unlikely it will get us victory 1t earlier.

Therefore, I think we should keep concentrate on milking (irrigate and keep lux high enough to keep everyone happy). I still agree with Bede's method of accelerating the research of other civs, but I think it is too little too late. Trying to get a ModA wonder is still worth a shot, but won't make much of a difference.

1600(0)- Sell coal plant in Utica.
Science to 70%, Rep Parts in 7
I use the Indian slave to build a second ivory colony.

IBT- Pollution in Leptis Minor
Celt MDIs move out of Richborough
Well there was no need to boost science, 4 civs have RP.

1605(1)- Trade with Ottomans, Atomic Theory + ivory for RP, Communism + 121gpt.
Trade with India, AtomTh for horses (just in case) +55gpt.
I gift AtomTh to the Celts to stop them making a stupid attack. I don't want alliances against us now.

Building Police Stations in Hippo, LMOZ1 and Leptis Minor. The other two cities don't need it as they have the Palace and FP.

We have 2 rubber sources. One NW of LMOZ1, the other SE of Theveste.
Only the Germans have no rubber in their territory.

Refining at 0% with 1 scientist.
Clear pollution.
Upgrade rifles to infantry, cannons to artillery and the two vet MDIs to guerillas. I wanted an up to date military to hopefully prevent an attack.

IBT- Celt MDIs retreat. :)

1610(2)- I will wait for Police Stations before irrigating.

1615(3)- zzz

IBT- Germany and Greece sign a peace treaty.

1620(4)- zzz

IBT- Leptis Minor, Police Station > Worker
Utica, Intelligence Agency > Battlefield Medicine in 7
LMOZ1, Police Station > Wealth

1625(5)- zzz

IBT- Leptis Minor, Worker > Wealth
Hippo, Police Station > Wealth

1630(6)- Irrigation project underway.

IBT- Babylon declared war on the Greeks. :ar15:
Pollution in Leptis Minor

1635(7)- Clear pollution and irrigate.

1640(8)- I have irrigated LMOZ1 for 41sh/turn, Leptis Minor for 41 sh/turn and Hippo for 31sh/turn (after waste).

1645(9)- zzz

IBT- Greeks want MPP and ROP. :nono:

1650(10)- zzz

Score: 810, Jason: 1073

Notes:

Utica has 15582 culture @ 122cpt. BatMed in 2 turns.

Refining in 31 with 1 scientist (0% science rate.)

The AI is not researching fast enough to get us into the modern age. We won't get there before the 20K win, so we may as well leave it as it is. I think the fact we will get a 20K win before the modern age means we have a fast finish date, not that we researched too slowly.

We can trade 1 coal, 1 rubber, 2 spices, 1 wool and 1 ivory.

I have brought the second caravel from Hippo to Utica.

I had to put the luxuries up to 40% due to a content 20th citizen in Hippo. When it grows to size 21, an entertainer will allow the lux rate to be dropped back down to 30%.

We have 9 workers. This number is deliberate as 9 can clear pollution from a mountain instantly (3 for flat terrain, 6 for hills).

Our military is up to date, apart from 2 caravels, 1 elite NuMerc and 1 MDI. How long is it since we built that NuMerc? ;)

If we want to put research back on, we should head for Mass Production to get commercial docks.

20K is still scheduled for 1780AD, 35 turns to go. The only cultural building left to double in value is Leo's in 1730AD from 2cpt to 4cpt (16 turns from now).

Here is the save:
1650AD SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_AD1650_01.SAV)

Roster:
fbouthil - up next
TimBentley - on deck
MOTH
Bede - will be finishing the game
Zakharov - no more turns to play.

We could irrigate the Leptii to ~30spt (infantry in three) and keep barracks there, then irrigate the other two (Theveste and Hippo) to max population growth, sell the barracks (if any) and if needed short rush artillery out of them.
We have no barracks. We sold them all when we built Sun Tzu's. :D

I have described how I irrigated the cities in the turn log. However I don't believe we will need to build any more units in the remaining 35 turns, so we could just irrigate every possible tile. This includes Utica once the Battlefield Medicine is finished as it will have nothing else to build (maybe a granary if we are growing it for score).

I noticed that Sidon of Persia and the two Celtic cities are intruding on Leptis Minor's boundaries. We could remove those three cities. We could investigate the cities to see if they have decent defenses. I see no other way to increase our score or improve our victory date.

We have no barracks. We sold them all when we built Sun Tzu's. :D

Oops, forgot about that.

This game reprresents a first for me as it is the first and only time I have ever built every single MA wonder. I did a 20K OCC in an RBCiv C3C Epic where I built all the really valuable wonders (Sistine's, Bach, KT, Shakespeare's and one of the scientific ones, but never all the monuments.

I will play tomorrow.

The plan:

I do not see anything else cultural that Utica can build, so I will build a granary and a coastal fortress (free maintenance) and then wealth.
Declare war on Celt. I would not normally investigate those cities because of the artillery we have, but since we are almost burried under our own gold...
Give spices to babylon and germany to convince them not to join the war. Every other civs have deals with us.
Increase lux because the silk deal with the Celts will be cancelled just before the war. I will negociate peace as soon as possible.
Irrigate grassland when there is no pollution (Hippo & Utica first because Leptis Minor will grow every 2t for some time).


Of course, if you are against the Celtic war, write something now or withhold your comments forever.

Since amphibious war is unknown, I can block the coast with artillery, right?

On the Celtic War:

Short, sharp and decisive are the keywords. The cultural expansion will help in the final score so..

" If it were done when 'tis done then twere well
It were done quickly"
Macbeth, Act 1 Scene 7

Since amphibious war is unknown, I can block the coast with artillery, right?
As the Vikings were killed off, yes you can block the coast with artillery. (I hate those beserks. You think you're safe on your island with minimal city defences, and along comes a galleon filled with beserks). :mad: We should win this game before amphibious warfare is discovered.

Regarding the Celtic war, we seem to have abandoned hope of reaching the modern age, so I have no problem with any wars. The only reason to avoid wars was to get the AI to do some research but that no longer applies. A quick strike against the Celtic and Persian cities on our island might make the final few turns more interesting. Just don't let Utica come close to being attacked!

If we intend to grow all the cities to a maximum size, then how about using Leptis Minor as a worker pump, then adding the workers to the other cities. With all the flat tiles irrigated it can produce 78 food per turn. For a 30 food surplus and one turn growth, it can be at size 24 and then produce a worker every turn. It would also be more efficient to build 15 workers, then join them all back to Leptis Minor 15 turns later to make it size 39, rather than letting it grow to size 39 normally. I'm not sure how this would affect the score though.

EDIT: I have calculated the maximum size each city can reach without going into starvation:
LMOZ1: 25
Hippo: 31
Theveste: 20
Leptis Minor: 39
Utica: 34

King Hammurabi! It is so nice of you to accept my dinner invitation!
Uppsalan, my assistant: Please tell to the pig fbouthil the traitor that I am here against my better judgement because a certain assistant of mine who thinks we should try to improve our diplomatic relations.
General fbouthil, my sovereign, the great King Hammurabi tells you he is more than happy to share a meal in the company of such an generous person like you.
Hum. Well, honourable King Hammurabi, would you like to try some Carthagians delicacies. They are called pizza pockets! They contain some tomato sauce with salt, pepper, basil, oregano and a touch of thyme.
You! Miserable bastard! You have guts to call me here and give me your pizza pockets! It is going to take more than a little pepper and thyme for me to forget all you have done..
My sovereign, try to stay calm! You should try this, it is actually quite good!
Hammurabi seems to calm himself a little when he tastes the little snacks. He seems to actually enjoy it.
Well, what were you saying? Just how much of pepper and thyme do you think it would take you to forget why you have a grudge against our people? What if I send you a regular shipment?
The Carthaginian people are very generous. Thank you.


1650AD (preturn)
Give spice to both Babylon and Germany.
Investigate Verulamium: 1 pikemen
Investigate Richborough: 1 riflemen, 1 musket, 3 mace, 2 settlers, 2 boats (a galleon and a frigate, I think)
Cancel the silk deal with Celts and DoW.
Somehow, everyone is still happy so I do not increase lux.
Bombard Richborough: The riflemen is down to 1hp and the other units to 2hp, except for 1 mace which is intact. The population has dropped from 6 to 3. Kill those units with 5 cavs, no losses. We get 4 slaves, that will do some of the blocking for now so I can keep full garrison in our cities and abandon the city.

IBT
A frigate appears near Verulamium.
1655AD (1)
Bombard Verulamium and destroy it without losses.
Bombard the frigate down to 1hp, in hope it will make it flee instead of bombarding coastal units.
IBT
Another frigate appears in the same region.
Utica: Battlefield Medicine->granary
1660AD (2)
I do not bombard the frigate, in hope it will still be around when my 2 ironclads arrive next turn.
IBT
Greece and India sign a MPP.
Ottomans and India sign a MPP.
The frigate bombard the coast and move away.
1665AD (3)
Find the frigate. Bombard it with one ironclad and destroy it with the other; no damage.
Join 2 workers to Utica and start producing workers every turn in Leptis Minor. The new workers will join other cities.
IBT
Utica: granary->coastal fortress
India declares war on Babylon. That's why Ghandi was making all those alliances!
1670AD (4) - :sleep:

IBT
Celts want peace. Agreed. Also trade silk + 53g for ivory and wool. I could get a few extra gpt, but we do not need it and it will be an incentive to stay at peace with us.
Ottomans wants coal. Because of the MPP, I agree.
Ottomans and India learns refining.
Utica: Coastal fortress->ironclad
1675AD (5)
lux to 30%.
Trade Electronics to Ottomans for refining, 256g , WM.
Set research to steel.
We have oil near Hippo. India, Celts and Greece also have some.
Investigate Sidon: 1 musket, 1 knight, 2 settlers.
Investigate Bactra: 1 musket, 1 settler.
Cancel wool deal with Persia and DoW.
Destroy Sidon and Bactra after bombardment and capture nearby worker, we now have 7 new slaves.
1680AD (6) to 1695AD (9)
Build RRoads under the blocking units.
1700AD (10)
Make peace with Persia and give wool so that every civs have some reason to stay at peace with us.

Battlefield Medicine was not enough to take one turn off our 20K date which is still in 1780AD (25t).

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_AD1700_01.SAV)

Hum. I realize now that I should have let the next player make peace, but it won't change anything now.

Roster:
TimBentley - up next
MOTH - on deck
Bede - will be finishing the game
Zakharov - out
fbouthil - out

Well, the only risk from now is that MOTH talked about trying to get the wooden spoons and could do something unexpected toward that end, but I do not think so. ;)

Got it. I'll see what I can do about maximizing population.

Here's my shortest turn log ever:

1700(0)-Since steel research will not finish before victory, fire the scientist.
Sell the factory in Utica for less pollution.

1705(1)-We stop getting horses from India

1710(2)-Sell ivory to Ottomans for 10gpt

1730(6)-Babylon and Greece signed peace

1750(10)-Persia and Babylon signed MPP
Persia declared war on Greece
We stopped giving spices to Babylon and Germany

Notes: LMOZ1 and Theveste are at their maximum sustainable population
Utica and Hippo don't have much more to go
I'm not sure when the best time to stop worker production in Leptis Minor is
Many workers are fortified outside of Leptis Minor

Here is the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_AD1750_01.SAV).

Roster:
MOTH - up
Bede - ready to win
Zakharov - done
fbouthil - done
TimBentley - done

Ottomans wants coal. Because of the MPP, I agree.
I know it doesn't matter now, but why did you concede this demand? An MPP only kicks in if you attack them in their territory. Fighting in home territory or on neutral ground does not activate an MPP alliance.

I didn't realise this myself until a few weeks ago, as I would usually go and attack them if they declare war on me. I was at war with one other nation, sinking their transport ships with destroyers in neutral waters. The first time I chased one into their territory and sunk it, I got the message saying another civ had declared war due to a MPP. :ar15:

@Zakharov: I did not know that subtility. I knew that if you and the civ you are at war with both have MPP with the same civ, the one attacking would get a DoW. Obviously, that was not the whole truth. Anyway, at that point, with no other civ on our small continent, I would have given in to almost anything.

Just a reminder to MOTH and Bede, each turn is now 2 years. Therefore MOTH will play up to 1770 and Bede will be submitting the final save in 1780 or 1782 (whenever the 'lemme play a couple more turns' message appears).

Doesn't it feel good to know we are close to the finish? I wonder what SGOTM5 will have in store. :) We've just got to wait for all these slow teams now. :mischief:

I got it (or I will as soon as I fire up the laptop). I will play to be done before the redsox take to the field. Let our victory be inspiration to the Sox.

0-1750 IBT - Polution in Hippo.

2-1754 IBT - Polutions in a mountain. We have 1 extra slave after clearing this.

3-1756 IBT - 2 Polution: near Utica and another mountain.

4-1758 - Trades to India and Ottomans for Steel and Radio.

5-1760 IBT We catch Ghandi trying to plant a spy.

6-1762 IBT Polution near LMOZ1

7-1764 IBT Babylon demands spices.

8-1766 - I now have 10 native workers. I switch Leptis Minor to wealth and next turn will join in 6 workers. Buy Combustion from India.

IBT - Pollution near LMOZ1.

9-1768 - Join in 5 workers to Leptis Minor to size 30 with growth in 2.

IBT - Pollution near Hippo.

10-1770 - clear pollution.

Leptis Minor will grow this turn even if we join in 3 more workers. We can max it using non-native workers if we give up on 1 turn pollution clearing in the hills. We can also join a worker to Theveste and Utica which will put them with a food shortage, but they won't starve until after we win. I leave these final decisions to Bede.

Firaxis: 898
Jason: 1189

Rotation: Bede for the win. Fitting for team captain.

hte save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_AD1770_01.SAV)

Workers should be joined to cities when it becomes clear that will keep the population higher than keeping them to clear pollution (ie join all workers a couple of turns before victory). This might increase our score by about 1 point.

Thank you gentlemen.

Now to bring it home.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4BedeVictory.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4BedeKudos.jpg

Pictures are worth a 1000 words.

Firaxis 1992
Jason 4624

For the analytical among us we were exactly 10 turns behind "Jason Date" for 20K in GOTM28 and 24 ahead of gozpel's "Grace Note" win.

Victory and Pre-victory saves attached.


The Submitted Game (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_AD1780_01.SAV)


Well done. A pleasure playing with you all.

There is a standing invitation to all of you for Bede04.

Firaxis 1992
Jason 4624
I'm not sure what to make of this score. 4624 doesn't seem to be a very high Jason score, but I'm not sure how 5CC affects this. I suppose we will only find out when the other teams all finish.

There is a standing invitation to all of you for Bede04.
When is it starting? Now this game is over I'm up for more SGs. :)

Btw, are we now free to read other team's threads, or do we have to wait for confirmation of our win from mad-bax?

The submissions page confirmed the win.

Just to be safe I would wait to hear from m-b. Let me check the rules page, though. ainwood's sticky is pretty draconian: don't view another thread, period. So just to be safe wait for notice from the m-b the facilitator.

On Bede04, it should be a couple of weeks or so. I would solicit ideas from all of you to Bede's Refectory Table thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=91578

Great game everyone! :goodjob:

I hope I will see you again for SGOTM5.

I guess we will know how good we did, heu, at the speed some teams are playing, probably next year! :dubious:

Well done all. We got a higher score than one of my personal GOTMs.

The final spoiler thread is up, so someone should start working on it.

I'll make it easier by pointing out some important dates:
300-capture Rome and get a bunch of other cities for peace so Forbidden Palace starts in Theveste before abandoning them
310-Hanging Gardens built
400-Forbidden Palace built in Theveste
470-get a leader
580-Sun Tzu's built
590-cathedral built
660-marketplace built
670-Sistine Chapel rushed with leader
710-get a leader
720-build a courthouse
730-Leonardo's Workshop rushed with leader
740-get a leader
860-build a university
900-JS Bach's Cathedral rushed with leader
1090-Copernicus' Observatory built
1100-bank built
1260-Shakespeare's Theater built
1340-Newton's University built
1385-get a leader
1415-Magellan's built, rush USuff with leader
get a leader
1420-Universal Suffrage built, rush Smith's with leader
1425-Smith's built
1430-factory built
get a leader
1435-coal plant built
1460-palace built
1490-military academy built, rush ToE
1495-Theory of Evolution built
1555-Hoover Dam built
1560-hospital built
1565-stock exchange built
1590-Wall Street built
1625-Intelligence Agency built
1660-Battlefield Medicine
1780-win
I might be one turn off on a few of those dates

I'll start working on the spoiler and post it here first.

How's this guys?

[ptw] SGOTM4 Team Summary for spoiler 2 for team Bede

First Spoiler (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2238689&postcount=2) Ultra Breif Summary: Going for 20K but have gotten only leader through the AA.

There were a couple of tactics that we used near the end of the AA that we failed to mention last time around.

First tactic: Since we had the Light house, we were able setup a blockade to keep poachers away from our continent. One galley on either red spot keeps out the AI.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SG4BEDEblockade1.jpg

The second tactic came in just after the time of out last spoiler. It is one which many of the other teams have mentioned in the first spoiler. We were able to get cities from Rome for peace and we built the Forbidden Palace in the South. We didn't know if it would work, or we could have timed it better to have built it in our 20K city instead of Theveste. This could have shaved off a few turns, but I don't think it would have been big enough difference to catch Offa's (presumed) excellent conquest victory (can't wait to read that spoiler).

Back to the story:
When we last saw team Bede they were prepared for the march on Rome.

Rome was captured in 300AD netting us 3 more cities in the peace deal. We started the FP and abandoned the cities. The Hanging Gardens also completed in Utica in the IBT!

Interesting point on Rome: The AI was very late in hooking up iron, in part because we sent a NuMerc and Archer on the Iron hill in the first war. The iron was not hooked up yet! We sent the same pair to disconnect Rome's Iron in the second war. Rome had built a grand total of 1 Legion. This was bombarded and then killed outright in the assault on Rome. Rome never got to have a Golden Age.

380 AD: We settle Leptis Minor as our 5th city to the South of where Rome was to take advantage of the Wool and Cows. From this point on our territory and population part of our score should start to catch up our score to most other teams.

We were now on our attempt to build as many of the Middle Age wonders as possible. Due to well timed leader appearences we get every single MA and IA Wonder including the minor wonders. The last several wonders that we built had little effect on the final date of our victory. At the end we were gifting all of the AI's forward scientifically to try and get a Modern Age wonder as well. We were short 2 or 3 required techs in the IA. Bede presided over the final turns and we win the 20K in 1780, just 10 turns after the 20K best date in GOTM28.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4BedeVictory.jpg

Time line:
470 - get a leader
580 - finish hand building Sun Tzu's
590 - unit disband and cash rush Cathedral
660 - marketplace built while waiting for another wonder tech.
670 - Rush Sistine Chapel with the leader.
710 - get a leader
720 - build a courthouse with built up shields
730 - Leonardo's Workshop rushed with leader
740 - get a leader
860 - hand build a university
900 - JS Bach's Cathedral rushed with leader
1090 - Copernicus' Observatory built
1100 - bank built
1260 - Shakespeare's Theater built
1340 - Newton's University built
1385 - get a leader
Somewhere in here we enter the Industrial Age.
1415 - Magellan's hand built,
rush USuff with leader and
get another leader!!
1420 - Universal Suffrage built
rush Smith's with leader
1425 - Smith's built
1430 - factory rushed/built
get a leader
1435 - coal plant rushed/built
1460 - palace built
1490 - military academy built,
rush ToE with leader
1495 - Theory of Evolution built
1555 - Hoover Dam built
1560 - hospital built and we pump Utica up to size 20.
1565 - stock exchange built
1590 - Wall Street built
1625 - Intelligence Agency built
1660 - Battlefield Medicine
1780 - win

It looks pretty good. You seem to be implying that the FP trick happened in the timeframe of the previous spoiler, however.

Looking good.

I think edit "trick" to "tactic", and it's good to go. I'm thinking trick connotes exploit.

Looking good. :goodjob:

This is only one thing: It may be nothing, but saying that the NuMerc-Archer duo sat on the iron kinda sounds like they stayed there for a long time, while they simply got there and disconnected it. Another duo also disconnected it at the beginning of the second war.

Edited per comments above. I'll post it now and make any more edits in the spoiler thread if need be. I see that klarius has already posted offa's spoiler.

Looks like we got pipped by Team tao by a temple....

WIll have to read the thread for a detailed comparison. But, still and all, an excellent job, mates.

Looks like we got pipped by Team tao by a temple....

WIll have to read the thread for a detailed comparison. But, still and all, an excellent job, mates.

When I compare the builds of temple, library, Colossus, Great Library, and Great Lighthouse, my spreadsheets for 155AD say
- team Bede: 5.981 cp
- team tao: 5.745 cp

It was not the temple. I think we researched faster to the high-culture Middle Age Wonders.

Hum. I was actually wondering about that. We deliberately slowed down MA research to prevent Sun Tzu or Leo to cascade to a more cultural wonder but later got to build a marketplace ourselves because we ran out of wonders to build and had an extra GL. Some wars were also delayed until a GL was used so if we researched faster, we could have battled a bit more and got a few more GL.

Oh well. I could not see it at the time probably because of lack of experience with the 20K goal, but I remember Bede talked about it once. It is unfortunate that we did not listen to him.

Still, I had a lot of fun with the game.

Our tactics were well executed for a "classic" 20K epic game.

OTOH, never in a game have I collected so many wonders in a single city. The closest I came was an early RBCiv Conquests epic many moons ago where I nailed a OCC 20K victory at Emperor. In that tourney I was pipped by T-Hawk who did a 5CC 20K, but it was only by two turns or so. In all respects it was to my advantage to keep the pace slow so I didn't get whomped by my warlike and aggressive neighbors and I had time to accumulate shields for a wonder run.

So, I still put this one in the pantheon of personal bests.

I have read elsewhere that sign ups for the next SGOTM should begin tomorrow and that the variant will be OBCC-One Built City Conquest. Isn't it nice that most of us have a little experience with OBC?

:hmm:, that looksa promising.

I am guessing Bede had a scoop he could not reveal and has setup preparation practise games for the team. :mischief:

First I read about was right here, thanks to TimB. :hatsoff: to your intelligence service Tim.

Although it is not surprising that "great minds think alike" eh, M-B? :D :mischief:

Great game guys!. The win is confirmed.

Actually I nearly changed my mind about OBCC when I read of your games Bede, but iit *was* just a coincidence.

I'm trying to help MB put together the final team rosters for the next game. Only Bede, MOTH ad Tim Bentley have signed up, as individuals, and no one has said the team will be playing intact as far as I can tell. What are your intentions?

Sorry guys, but I don't have time for another SG. I think it is a shame that this team splits up because we seemed to get along pretty well, but that's not for me to say since I won't be part of SGOTM5.

BTW, the announcement of SGOTM5 has just shown up in the news, on the last sign-up day! Don't you think you should give a bit more time for people to sign-up? You might get more new players if you gave them more time to sign-up. Anyway, this is just a suggestion for the next SGOTM: announce it earlier.

EDIT: I just realize that I would have been too late, even if I wanted to join! :lol:

Sign-ups are still possible after the game starts. A complete extra team was created after the start last time. The news problem was because of the clash with the GOTM37 announcement, plus a day or so of real life delay.

I'm trying to help MB put together the final team rosters for the next game. Only Bede, MOTH ad Tim Bentley have signed up, as individuals, and no one has said the team will be playing intact as far as I can tell. What are your intentions?

Sorry I missed the note but since Team Bede from SGOTM4 has gone on to Bede04A&B I figured that we wouldn't continue in SGOTM5.

BTW, I really like the opportunity provided by this series to meet other players.

I too like to meet new players. For SGOTM5 Tim and I are on team MOTH, with 3 other players (including 1 with a post count of 1). I didn't note who is on team Bede this time around, but good luck and best wishes for a good conquest!

Got a good bunch, I think. Good luck and good penguin hunting MOTH.

Fourth place.

I'm not sure how we could have finished much earlier, apart from some extra leaders whilst building those AA and early MA wonders. A good game all round. A 1780AD win is nothing to ashamed of as far as I'm concerned. :)

I do believe these results completely vindicate my rant in post #287 about Jason scoring favouring Conquest wins. I know this is irrelevant to the gold laurel race, but it shows why I don't play the GOTM/COTM competition.

I believe 3 of you are playing in SGOTM5, so good luck with that. I will keep an eye on the game and will be supporting my former teammates. ;)

The reason I'm not playing this game is the one I stated in Bede's refectory table thread - I hate tundra! :crazyeye: Hopefully I will be back for SGOTM6 depending on the terrain (although I will probably play SCOTM having seen m-b's latest announcement).

Thanks for the game guys. :beer:

Thanks to all for a valiant effort. The top three cultural finishes could have been covered by a blanket.

As for the early domination/conquest wins getting the advantage in the scoring I couldn't agree more. Even getting a high scoring other condition requires relentless focus towards domination in the early phases, as the scoring system rewards territory/population.

With the 5CC restriction that bonus was off the table yet a cultural victory just barely reached >50% score of the conquest win.

Easier to tear down than to build I guess....though I don't mean to devalue Team Offa's achievement. Putting together the force to crush the world out of five cities on an island by 860AD is a feat.