SGOTM4 - Game Thread.

Hi everyone, and welcome to your game thread.

Here is the start position.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4.jpg

Note: EVERYONE has to install the correct resource graphics whether or not they have played this scenario or GOTM before. If you haven't done it yet, you had better get a wriggle on.

The saves will be available once the timelock has been released tonight (19th September).

Here are some links you might find useful.

The original GOTM28 Announcement. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/gotm28_india.shtml)
The Draft Constitution (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1733966&postcount=61)
The GOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=71788)
SGOTM4 - Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=100194)
Download latest Save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php)
Upload a Save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm.php)

This Months' sponsored variant is 5 City Challenge the rules for which are as follows.

1. You may not end a turn with more than 5 cities.

Team Leaders: It would be a good idea to PM your team mates to get them all checked in here as soon as is possible. ;)

Good luck everyone! :)

Checking in. I'll comment on the starting position later. I have not played this particular GOTM, by the way.

Checking in. I haven't played this GOTM, but this week I played a 5CC test game with India (20K win in 1902AD).

I have taken a quick look at the start position. There is definitely something NW,NW(wheat/sheep?) and also N,NW(game?). With the BGs S and E, I think we should settle NE. This keeps the forest available for chopping, which would disappear if we settle on the spot, and also the two BGs will be in the city radius after expansion. It also gets those two bonuses NW which may or may not be there (I'm sure they are).

Maybe the worker should move onto the mountain to get a good view of the surroundings? Or should we wait for our first warrior and let the worker start improving tiles?

I will post more when I have finished listening to the Jets game.

Checking in. I haven't played this GOTM either.

A thought on the variant. Its a rather loose interpetation of 5CC. I propose that we initially build two 'throw away' cities. We use these to build our initial settlers and workers and we can use some pop-rush to build military units. When we find an important resource we abandon the first of the 2 cities to keep under 5. We abandon the 2nd when we capture an important cities (ie: important wonders).

Thoughts on the start position. Worker to mountain and look around to see if there are any bonuses. If not then move the setler NE and settle.

I don't know if any of you guys are familiar with 5CC. I wasn't until I signed up for this SGOTM and then played a test game. I found this War Academy article to be very helpful:

5CC Guide by Charis (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_5cc.shtml)

This is my first SG, but I followed team Smackster's thread from SGOTM3 (as they had the most posts), so I believe I understand the SG format. The reason they played quickly is because their roster was formed geographically, european time zone player followed by US time zone player. This allowed them to play more than one players turns per 24hrs. I propose something similar here, though I guess the final decision is bede's. (My third post and it sounds like I'm taking over :blush: ). For the record, I am in the BST time zone (GMT+1, Eastern+5, Pacific+8).

As I stated in the sign up thread, I am a comfortable Monarch player, though I do have a few wins on emperor. My move up to this level was greatly helped by Dianthus' CrpSuite MapStat utility, which meant I didn't have to go through the tedious process of checking the diplomacy screens every turn. I highly recommend it.

Looking forward to playing with you guys. I'll post some more game thoughts when we have all checked in.

As everyone so far, I have not played this GOTM either.

This is my third SG, so I have some experience with them. Monarch level without variant does not pose a challenge to me, although I cannot say I am confortable at emperor level.

I have never played 5CC. I have read a few 5CC SG and I tought 20K culture was the easiest victory condition. So, I read the 2 articles on 20K victory in the war academy. Then I saw the article on 5CC and read it also. It said that any victory condition, except 100K culture and domination, was possible. The key element is FOCUS. Therefore, I will be important to decide a victory condition pretty early.

As for fog gazing, I can never see anything. I would normally send the worker E to improve the tile but, because of the variant, I agree with sending the worker NW. The position of the capital is, heu, capital! :lol:

I will open the initial save to check who are the other civs and post a summary shortly.

Edit: Oups! It seems we do not have access to the initial save yet! At least, I do not see it anywhere.

My move up to this level was greatly helped by Dianthus' CrpSuite MapStat utility, which meant I didn't have to go through the tedious process of checking the diplomacy screens every turn. I highly recommend it..
Yes, I like MapStat, as well as Ainwood's CivAssist.

fbouthil makes a good point about wanting to perfect capital city placement, so I think sacrificing a couple of worker moves to move to the mountain would be worth it. Without anything in particular from the worker's view, a move to the NE for the settle for a forest chop remaining available seems good.

I haven't played a 5CC either. I think I read about someone winning a 5CC by 100k culture once (they had all five cities close to 20k, and they did have a 20k cultural victory the same turn, of course).

Looking at the test save, I see many custom resources:

Wool: luxury, +2f, +1sh, +1c, often near sheep & lamb
Lamb: +2f
Sheep: +2f, +1sh

Goats: +2f, +1sh, often near menudo & olives
Olives: +2f, +1c
(menudo not found in civilopedia)

Oysters: +2f, +1c, often near pearls & offshore rocks
Rocks: +1sh, +1c
(pearls not found in civilopedia)

Of course with only 5 cities, we probably won't profit from most of the new resources. But, IMHO, a city with wool, lamb & sheep would be excellent for the 20K culture victory...

I see that no one of the players that have checked in so far were in any of the SGOTM. How about renaming our team to "Team recruits" ? ;) At least Bede was in all SGOTM but it shows that our team definitely lacks SGOTM experience. That means we will have even more merits when we get both laurels! :D

As I stated earlier, I played a 5CC test game with India last week. I believe an early conquest victory is very difficult unless the map is a pangaea, as we will not have the infrastructure to move many troops across the water.

Only in the early game and the late game will our military be comparable to the other civs. During the middle ages it is hard to support a large military, because we will only have one or two productive cities. If one of these is shooting for 20K culture it needs to concentrate on wonders; not military.

Of course, the easiest way to get many wonders in one city will be to rush them with leaders. We therefore have a double-edged sword. If we concentrate on military, we must trust the RNG for leader production, but if we concentrate on building wonders and culture, we will be militarily weak - meaning we will be a big target for an AI dogpile. We need to decide early which way to go, then commit to it.

In order to get many resources our citites need to be well spaced out, then allow border expansion to fill the gaps. In my test game my cities were 6 to 8 tiles apart and I got all strategic resources except uranium and oil within my borders, plus three luxuries. Once our cities grow above size 12, trading for more luxuries becomes vital as we cannot afford to lose production by diverting resources to happiness.

For our research goals, I think we need to head towards Republic. As we have only core cities the military support cost will be outweighed by the extra commerce, provided we road all tiles that are worked.

Anyway, just some observations from playing a little 5CC. I'm sorry if I sound a bit negative. Btw, I like to explain myself well, so if my posts get a bit too long please let me know :)

Well don't I feel stupid. I played a test game with India as they were used in GOTM28, but I just loaded up the save and we get the Carthaginians :o

In that case: Carthage - Commercial/Industrious (Alphabet/Masonry)
Our UU is the Numidian mercenary (2/3/1) replacing spearmen, upgrades to muskets, costs 30 shields instead of 20 for spearmen.

With these traits we get less corruption, quick workers and an extra shield and commerce in size 7+ cities.

We couldn't ask for a better 5CC civ. Our workers can get us set up quickly, our cities will be extra productive later in the game, plus we get a strong defensive unit to ride out the tough early middle ages :thumbsup:

Our opponents are:
Civ -- Traits -- Techs -- UU + stats (replaces)
India Commercial/Religious CB/Alphabet War Elephants 4/3/2 (Knights)
Greece Scientific/Commercial BW/Alphabet Hoplites 1/3/1 (Spearmen)
Ottomans Scientific/Industrious Masonry/BW Sipahi 8/3/3 (Cavalry)
Romans Militaristic/Commercial WC/Alphabet Legionaries 3/3/1 (Swordsmen)
Babylonians Scientific/Religious BW/CB Bowmen 2/2/1 (Archer)
Persians Scientific/Industrious Masonry/BW Immortals 4/2/1 (Swordsmen)
Vikings Militaristic/Expansionist Pottery/WC Beserk 6/2/1 (Longbows)
Celts Militaristic/Religious WC/CB Gallic Swordsmen 3/2/2 (Swordsmen)
Germans Scientific/Militaristic BW/WC Panzer 16/8/3 (Tanks)

As for play order and the order the sun moves over the earth (at least until we have the right tech) we have:

GMT +1: Zakharov (England)
EST, GMT-4: Bede (Cape Cod, Mass, USA), fbouthil (Montreal, Can), MOTH (Southborough, Mass, USA)
CST, GMT-5: TimBentley (Bourbonnais, IL)

Personally, I get home at 5pm at which point I have exclusive responsibility for a 5 month old boy until about 7pm. I can usually pcik up a save between 7 and 9 and I play until 11pm usually. I can usually browse the web site some during work hours, but I cannot run the game at work. IE: if you post pictures I can comment. Weekends can be sketchy as I often travel to locations where I don't have internet access.

I do have a planned absence this coming weekend and will be gone to New York from Friday pm until Sunday pm for a wedding.

In the early game I imagine that we will want to keep to a rotation. Near the middle/end it is fine with me if Zakharov gets some extra turns to speed up game play.

Pending approval of the team and info about the time of day that everyone can play, I propose the following rotation:

Bede
fbouthil
TimBentley
Zakharov
MOTH

Note: I put myself last as I would usually upload a turn and log at about 11pm. If someone else could start a turn about that timeframe then they could be after me instead.

As far as game start, there is a rule that the 1st player plays until 3000 BC. There is no rule that screen shots and suggestions can not be made as we go. If Zakarov is willing and able then I would be happy having him start. As above Worker NW, Settler NE and then a screen shot? Unless there is a food bonus we won't grow until turn 10. What year is turn 10?

We have 9 opponents which means science will go faster. We will have to be careful about not triggering a GA too fast.

According to the 20K war academy article, our traits are not very good toward that goal. Ind is considered average and comm the worst (we won't have much corruption with 5 cities anyway). Oh well! Who said a SGOTM would be easy?
Anyway, just some observations from playing a little 5CC. I'm sorry if I sound a bit negative. Btw, I like to explain myself well, so if my posts get a bit too long please let me know :)
Don't worry about it, I tend to do the same thing from time to time. And MOTH too. :D

I would also like the opportunity for discussion with a screenshot after the worker does some hiking, but I would trust the first player to make the right choice if he decides otherwise. After all, there are no bad players in our team as far as I know (we all said we were monarch/emperor players on the sign-up thread).

Don't worry about it, I tend to do the same thing from time to time. And MOTH too. :D

I would also like the opportunity for discussion with a screenshot after the worker does some hiking, but I would trust the first player to make the right choice if he decides otherwise. After all, there are no bad players in our team as far as I know (we all said we were monarch/emperor players on the sign-up thread).

Don't I know it about the long windedness. I too would trust the 1st player to do the right thing.

I have always seemed to good at the initial build out but then I tend to just let my core and empire just run themselves. I tend to plan out my micro-management from screen shots when I should be working instead. :mischief:

My thoughts on the initial worker actions will be forthcoming. As for builds, I think we should build a settler before a granary. Maybe Warriorx3 then settler. As for initial research. I would suggest Writing on 10%, but I don't know what Writing on 100% would mean. This might be one of our few chances to get a slight tech lead.

The number of turns you take is a guide only. You can vary the number of turns you take to suit your own circmstances. The only requirement is that you do not skip, or reduce the number of turns a "weaker" player takes in order to avoid the weaker player taking difficult turns, or increasing the overall proportion if turns taken by your elite players. I would prefer it if you state in the thread somewhere how many turns per session you will be playing if it isn't 10. :)

Here is our minimap:

Will be looking at the save right now.

How about this rotation:

Zakharov
fbouthil
TimBentley
MOTH
Bede

First round let's all take twenty, then tens.

I'm fine with kicking things off. Any complaints on moving the worker NW then posting a screenshot for discussion?

The alternative is to move the worker east to get started on roading/mining the BG on the river right away. Having done some fog gazing NW of the start position, I think the resources I guessed at have been changed or removed, as I believe the image in the sign-up thread is from the GOTM28 announcement, not from this save. That fog certainly looks different now :confused:

I recommend that everyone read this article for a guide to a 20K victory:

T-Hawk's 20K Article (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=76143)

Although written for Conquests and does not address the MGL rush tactic, it is an excellent primer on setting up for 20K

One of the things we need to keep in mind is the scoring which applies to the game and we need to make sure we keep our population as happy as possible as the system rewards total population and happiness. The other thing to keep in mind is the reward given for speed in the scoring system so the faster the better.

I would drop the settler right where he is. It will cost us the forest but it preserves two BG's in the first ring. Move the worker to the riverside BG for a mine and road then back through town to the other BG for a mine.

Two warriors and then a settler and chop the forest for the settler. First settler should go SE along the river.

City spacing should be as loose as is consistent with the terrain.

The civ traits do not give us a break on cultural buildings but we do get better commerce (often a stumbling block in XCC games) so we need to take full advantage of it. The commercial trait means we can push research hard in the early game when techs are cheaper and one or two gpt can make a real difference in the research rate.

Not knowing what changes m-b made to the map using my experience in GOTM play is probably not a help so I'm not even going to speculate.

Of the other nations in the game more than half are scientific (5) so expect a blistering tech pace. Pottery is less important to a 5CC so I would push to writing ASAP.

Housekeeping:
24hrs to post got it, 24hrs after to post (total 48hrs from time of posted save to posted save)
Requests for skips or swaps should be automatically honored. No need for confirmation (least of all from me)
Please post a rotation with your log, or at least a notification to the next player. (Keeps me from getting confused)
GTOM rules are in effect (Details (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/gen/rules2.shtml))

Important
This is a co-operative enterprise. If at any time you need advice, save the game, post a save and screenshot, and ask for it. I am not shy about offering my opinion and I'm sure the rest of you are not either....

This will be fun...looking forward to a gold laurel for my "love me wall"

I can agree with plopping the settler where he is. And not having the worker look around. I don't think warrior, warrior, settler works out for the food needed.

Initial worker actions are: E (turn 0), Mine (1-3), Road (4-5), WS Mine (6-8), Road (9-10)

Warrior#1 will be built on turn 5. Warrior#2 will be build on turn 9. We grow on turn 10 and turn 20. I think we will be getting 5 shield per turn once we grow which would get the settler on turn 16 if we had enough food.

Given this:
+2 Food: I think we can build 4 warriors and then the settler if we have no food bonuses in the expanded range.
+3 Food: I assume that we will only get 3 or maybe 4 shields per turn.
3 spt: a. food by turn 17. Shields by 17 with Chop.
b. food by 18 and shields by 18 with no chop.
4 spt: food by 17. Sheilds by 17 by micro manage on turn 16 and extra shields on growth.
+4 Food: I assume that we will get just 3 sheilds. As Bede indicates, warrior, warrior, settler. We get enough food on turn 15 and enough shields on 16 with chop.

If we get an initial screen shot after settling then I can take a closer look at the exact sequence and plan more worker moves.

I think others have put forward good ideas for the opening, so I really have nothing to add there. I think writing could get done in a bit less than 40 turns at 100%, but I'm not sure. I'll have to be long-winded sometime later.

All right! There has been a lot of discussion since this morning! That is my kind of SG! Yeah! In my previous 2 SG, only 2 players, including me, were actively discussing strategies but I see that most players here are. :cool:

I read the article Bede mentioned and I agree it helps a lot. We have to adapt it because it assumes C3C and is not limited to 5 cities.

Some thoughts:
Do we really need a granary since we will build only 4 settlers? :hmm:
Unless there appends to be bonuses 2 tiles from the capital, it looks like we will go with the plan outside the capital (not enough sh IMHO).
I suggest that the warriors scout around the capital until we find a good spot for the 20K city. Then they can go in strait lines to find contacts.
Well, I do not usually go in that much detail, but MOTH forgot to count the move on turn 6, but it does not change the fact that we can build warriors on turn 5, 9, 12, 14 and a settler on turn 20 unless there is some kind of bonus we cannot see yet. In that case, I agree with Bede to build less warriors to get the settler on the same turn as the city grows to size 3.
After the second BG is improved (turn 11 if I calculated correctly), then we can chop a forest, but I do not think we need it yet. IMHO, I think we should build a road toward the most likely spot for the 20K city to get it settled ASAP. Since we won't have much scouting done at that point, it is going to be a guess about the correct direction, but it is worth a shot.
This will be fun...looking forward to a gold laurel for my "love me wall"
I completely agree with that! Since you are the only one with SGOTM experience, I guess you know what you saying and you would not say a thing like that if you were pretty sure about it. Should we celebrate already? :beer:

Do we really need a granary since we will build only 4 settlers?

That's a good point; the granary is obviously not helpful only for a settler factory or a worker factory (we won't need scores of workers), but faster growth in general, but the shields could probably be better spent.


This will be fun...looking forward to a gold laurel for my "love me wall"
I completely agree with that! Since you are the only one with SGOTM experience, I guess you know what you saying and you would not say a thing like that if you were pretty sure about it. Should we celebrate already? :beer:
No, we shouldn't celebrate yet. If we get bad RNG, we might not win. ;) Seriously, however, there are many other good teams, and I shall not continue further because I'm sure both of you are not really so cocky you already think victory is assured. Or we could possibly win the green laurel (although Bede already has one...)

All right! There has been a lot of discussion since this morning! That is my kind of SG! Yeah! In my previous 2 SG, only 2 players, including me, were actively discussing strategies but I see that most players here are. :cool:

I read the article Bede mentioned and I agree it helps a lot. We have to adapt it because it assumes C3C and is not limited to 5 cities.

Some thoughts:
Do we really need a granary since we will build only 4 settlers? :hmm:
Unless there appends to be bonuses 2 tiles from the capital, it looks like we will go with the plan outside the capital (not enough sh IMHO).
I suggest that the warriors scout around the capital until we find a good spot for the 20K city. Then they can go in strait lines to find contacts.
Well, I do not usually go in that much detail, but MOTH forgot to count the move on turn 6, but it does not change the fact that we can build warriors on turn 5, 9, 12, 14 and a settler on turn 20 unless there is some kind of bonus we cannot see yet. In that case, I agree with Bede to build less warriors to get the settler on the same turn as the city grows to size 3.
After the second BG is improved (turn 11 if I calculated correctly), then we can chop a forest, but I do not think we need it yet. IMHO, I think we should build a road toward the most likely spot for the 20K city to get it settled ASAP. Since we won't have much scouting done at that point, it is going to be a guess about the correct direction, but it is worth a shot.



Good thinking all.

On the scouting thing:
Down the river to find the coast ASAP. Then as each warrior trains send 'em out on the compass.

Contacts will make the difference and the sooner we find 'em the better off we will be. Scouting in a spiral around the capitol will only tell us what we will learn soon enough anyway.

We do have a bonus near the start. I think its a cow. It may be worth a move SE to the second forest so that the Cow is in the initial radius.

There was also my early idea about a 'throw away' city. Maybe the initial position of Carthage isn't important and after it pumps out 4 Settlers and bunches of workers (to pump up the population on 20K city then we toss it. We will need to decide if we want the palace jump to the 20K city or to another city (maybe another continent).

As far as the initial setllement location, I think it is worth the turn to move SE. This gets irrigation to the cow pretty quickly and we will grow much quicker. Maybe even enough to do warrior>settler initially.

Lets see...
Worker: E (0), Mine (1-3), R (4-5), S (6), I (7-8), R (9-10)
Food/Shields:
Turn 0: none
Turn 1: 3/2 Turn 2: 6/4 Turn 3: 9/6 Turn 4: 12/8 Turn 5: 15/10
Turn 6: 17/3 Turn 7: 20/7 Turn 8: 24/11 Turn 9: 28/15 Turn 10: 32/19
Turn 11: 36/23 Turn 12: 40/28 Turn 13: 44/33

Warrior in 5, Settler in 13.

A better thought that takes better advantage of food:
Worker: E (0), R (1-2), S (3), I (4-5), R (6-7), N & M (8-10)
Food/Shields:
Turn 0: none
Turn 1: 3/2 Turn 2: 6/4 Turn 3: 9/6 Turn 4: 12/8 Turn 5: 16/10
Turn 6: 20/4 Turn 7: 24/7 Turn 8: 28/10 Turn 9: 32/13 Turn 10: 36/17
Turn 11: 40/23
Now 2 options:
Turn 12: 44/27 Turn 13: 48/33 Net: Warrior in 5, settler in 13, 8 extra food.
Assuming that we get another forest in expanded rangeL
Turn 12: 3 laborers each work 2 shield tiles (Forest, Bonus Grass, and ?Forest?)
40/30! Net warrior in 5, settler in 12, as of 13: 4 extra food and 2 extra shields

My suggestion to settle NE was based on the two resources I saw to the NW in the fog which have been removed. I agree with MOTH, there is definitely something SE,SE. Does this mean we still want to stay put, or move toward that possible resource? I want to get this decision right, as it will set us up for the entire game.

As far as the granary goes, a 20K city will certainly need one as we want it up to size 12 asap, (it can then be sold of course). It costs 60 shields, but is worth 80 food for a size 8+ city growing to size 12. At size 7 the granary is empty, so we may want to wait to build/rush the granary to be completed when the city is at size 7.

As we all seem to agree that moving the worker E is the best option, I will make that move, see what is revealed and then post a screenshot. We can then decide where to settle.

Well here is what we have after moving the worker E:

I think that cow (and the coastline) was worth the move E :)

With only one mountain and no hills in view, this first city will probably have to be a throw away city. The BGs are fine for the ancient age, but for good shield production in the middle age and beyond, we need a few hills/mountains in the city radius.

I say we get this city up and running, get a settler for a 20K city and then get some military support built. We don't need to worry about culture here if we will disband later. Once we reach the middle age, spit workers (+1 settler) from this city to rapidly improve an alternate site, then disband and join the workers to the new city to get it up to size 12 without needing a granary.

I therefore suggest settling SE. This gets the cow in our immediate radius, along with 3 BGs (maybe more in the fog). We also get at least 3 forests in the expanded radius as there is one SE of the cow. Moving SE also means we don't have to irrigate BG to then irrigate the cow, as we can use the city as a water source. The wasted coast is irrelevant if this city doesn't grow above size 12.

Do I still mine/road on the BG or do I get the cow irrigated asap?

Its late now (4am) so I'll play my turns later after you guys get a look at this image and give me some input.

MOTH second plan seems to indicate that irrigating the cow before mining the BG saves 1 turn (but road the BG before going on the cow).

I think we should wait until we see the remaining 7 tiles of the capital before we decide if it is a throw away city. It does sound unlikely that it will have enough shield to be the 20K city though.

I agree with settling SE.

WE could go whole hog and move the settler to the coast. I can't interpret the graphics in the screenshot very well but it looks like going to the coast will land us on a bonus grass. If so, as a commercial civ the extra shield kicks in at size 7, so, we could do worse.

In any case I would irrigate the cow.

Perhaps a better chioce is settle on the spot and put the second city on the coast to the SE. It can share the cow the capitol as needed for growth

I am not a big fan of founding and then abandoning. That is just too much productivity down the drain.

Then again, moving the settler one to where the worker stands gets the cow, the river and the forests and lots of riverside terrain for the commerce kicker. We lose the coast but that is not that big a deal. The capitol doesn't need more than ten spt for the AA to do what we need it to anyway.

I still say settle to the SE. We can only see 3 BG and I hate to lose one with the settler.

A reminder to Zak on micromanagement. Its not too bad. Road the BG and then move to irrigate the cow - the extra food will be wasted and we need the worker movement.
On turn 6 when we grow move the laborer from the forest to the BG. On turn 11 move the laborers to all of the forests and you also need to manage the mood using the luxury slider. Just move it back once the settler is built.

@Zakharov: You are playing until 4am! I do not know about you, but when I am tired, I usually make bad decisions. I suggest you get more :sleep:

After a good night of :sleep:, I realized a few things:
We are planning on building only one warrior 7t before the settler. We won't have much scouting done at that point. We are gambling on the warrior going in the right direction. Any suggestions on where the warrior should scout?
I did a small test yesterday with the Carthagians in a random game and when I founded the second city, I realized that I did not have CB yet and could not build a temple! I was researching writing at 10% (it was still 40t at 100%) and had contact with 2 civs who did not start with it. Of course there are 3 religious civs in our game so we will probably be able to trade for CB, but I wanted to mention it so we realize that we are making a small gamble.
I had plenty of forests for that city and even started a forest cut before I settled to get the temple faster. At that point, I got lucky and pop CB from a goody hut. I made 2 other forest cut (using 2 workers) before the temple was complete.

Given the mini-map location and the coast I suggest that the warrior explore South along the coast. He will get to the cow in one move and the go south keeping the shore in view for the first 7 moves. If we don't find another river then we need to think about how far do we want to go before founding 20K city.

As for the capitol builds after the settler, I'd want to get up to size 4 before getting the next settler, so 2 or 3 warriors next, then a settler, then setup as a military/worker pump with some of the workers going to 20K city to build population quickly.

As for rotation, assuming that Zakarov gets a turn posted this afternoon does anyone object if I take the next turn? I should be able to get it turned around this evening.

I was thinking about the same general direction for exploration: follow the coast to the SE.

As for the next things that we build, I think we should build a second worker for the 20K city before the next settler. At least, that is what is suggested in the war academy. My last night test shows that it is very useful to cut forest to get a temple in there quick and it is much faster with 2 workers.

I do not mind too much if MOTH goes before me. I think it is forbidden for players to switch turns because a player really wants to take the next turn. Since we are still in the first round, maybe it could be seen as determining the rooster order.

Let's see, settling to the SE would have 3 forests, 3 BGs, plenty of grassland, a plain, a mountain, a coast, and would allow us to irrigate the cow without irrigating the BG (looks like I haven't said anything new). That looks good to me. I would suggest setting the capital to emphasize production so it doesn't work an unimproved BG instead of a forest upon growth or something.

Regarding the temple, we ought to be able to get CB before the temple's prebuild is done.

I don't really mind if the roster is altered from what was previously suggested.

How about this for a roster? It's a little out of place for time zone management but I'm sure we will survive.

Zakharov
MOTH
fbouthil
TimBentley
Bede

Note to team: Switching spots is forbidden if it results in a stronger player substituting for a weaker. However, judging from the commentary to this point I don't see that as an issue here. It would become a problem if somebody wanted to take my slot :)

Turns complete. Save is here:

3000BC (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_BC3000_01.SAV)

Here is the surrounding area (turnlog will follow):

Firstly I changed a couple of the preferences. I switched on team colour discs and switched off the advanced unit commands. Feel free to switch them back.

Turn 0 (4000BC): Worker E, settler SE revealing grassland S.

Turn 1: Carthage founded. The cow is worked at 3food/1shield. Warrior in 5 turns.
Writing set at 20% as 10% will produce no science. This gives +2gpt. Worker roads BGriver in 2.

Turn 2: No action.

Turn 3: Road complete, worker S to cow. This reveals oysters in coast square S,S of cow.

Turn 4: Worker irrigates cow in 2.

Turn 5: No action.

Turn 6: Warrior1 built, next warrior in 5. We need these warriors for exploration. Correct city placement in 5CC is vital.
Cow irrigated, Carthage will now grow in 1 turn with no wasted food. Worker will road cow in 2.
Warrior1 moves S and discovers a river and what appears to be a mountain range.

Turn 7: Carthage grows to size 2. Forest 1/2/1 is auto worked, switched to roaded BGriver 2/1/2. The warrior is built in 2 either way and the BG will waste no shields, plus gives extra food and commerce. Carthage now produces 4fpt, due to grow in 5.
Science is reduced to 10% (34 turns), which is the same as 100%.
Warrior1 moves S. More mountains to the SW and an ocean to the SE.

Turn 8: The cow is roaded. Carthage now at 6com/turn. 100% is still the same as 10% science.
Worker N on road to mine BGriver in 3.
Warrior1 S to hill, rocks spotted on coast square.

Turn 9: Warrior2 built, warrior in 4 (3 once BG is mined in 2). As already stated, we need to explore hence the third warrior.
Warrior1 W to mountain. Lots more mountains to the W.
Warrior2 N. Hill spotted N,N.

Turn 10 (3500BC): Warrior1 S. Two sheep in mountain range (luxuries I believe).
Warrior2 W to mountain. 3x Spices discovered plus more coast to the W and a cow NE,NE,N.

Turn 11: Border expansion. BGriver mined, warrior in 1, 1 shield will be wasted but there are no squares more powerful to work.
Worker SE to BGriver.
Warrior1 S. Some grass and forest found the other side of the mountain range.
Warrior2 W.

Turn 12: Warrior3 built, worker in 2.
Carthage grows to size 3. Forest is auto worked, moved to the BGriver to prevent a 2 shield waste on the worker. This also gives growth in 5, not 7 with the forest. Worker mines BGriver in 3.
Warrior1 S, wool discovered.
Warrior2 W to coast. Rocks discovered. Will head in a SW direction.
Warrior3 NE,NE along road. Hills and coast spotted to the E.
Luxuries to 10%. Science remains at 10% (29 turns). Producing +5gpt.

Turn 13: Warrior1 S. Warrior2 S. Warrior3 NE.

Turn 14: Worker built. Carthage is size 2 (growth in 3). Settler in 8. Luxuries to 0%.
Worker2 E.
Warrior1 S. Red border spotted
Warrior2 S.
Warrior3 N to hill. Whale found.

Turn 15: Mine complete. Both workers road immediately.
Warrior1 W to hill. The red border is expanded so it must be the capital.
Warrior2 S onto mountain range.
Warrior3 NW.

Turn 16: Both workers move to BG to the SW of Carthage.
Warrior1 S.
Warrior2 SW.
Warrior3 W to hill.

Turn 17: Rome contacted CrpMapstat says they have BW and WC, we can sell them Masonry.
Carthage grows to size 3. Luxury rate to 10%. Settler now in 3. Two shields will be wasted, but the best squares are being worked.
Warrior1 SE.
Warrior2 S.
Warrior3 W.
Both workers road BG immediately.
I can't trade for BW and WC, so I decide to go for BW as we are then one step from IW. Locating iron will be important in a 5CC.
Trade - get BW for Masonry and 5g. Our UU is now available.

Turn 18: Warrior1 S. Warrior2 SW. Warrior3 W. Both workers S to BGriver.

Turn 19: Both workers road immediately.
Warrior1 moves S past the Roman borders.
Warrior2 SW. Warrior3 N.

Turn 20 (3000BC): Settler built. Carthage to size 1, grows in 2.
Luxuries to 0%, science to 20% (as 10% = no research). Writing in 21.
Warrior1 S. Warrior2 S. Warrior3 N, Ivory found in a tundra forest.
Settler moves N. We need those spices.
One worker mines BGriver. The other moves to the N of Carthage (with the settler) as it will road to the next city.

Save uploaded. Firaxis score: 66 (Rome 73). Jason score: 87.

Notes: The warrior build in Carthage is a placeholder. Please change it to whatever is best. We cannot yet build a temple or a granary, so should we prebuild for one of these, or get another warrior for MP duty? Or maybe a barracks?

Warrior1 (farthest S) should keep going S, hopefully to find another civ.
Warrior2 should keep going to the W of Rome.
Warrior3 can keep exploring to the N, maybe to find a goody hut, but probably not I suppose, this is a GOTM map after all. We can only hope.

Anyway, I hope my start is satisfactory. We certainly have a good idea of our surroundings now.

I would suggest setting the capital to emphasize production so it doesn't work an unimproved BG instead of a forest upon growth or something.
I believe the SGOTM rules prevent us from using the governor to emphasise production. Please correct me if I am wrong. :hmm:

@Zakharov: You are playing until 4am! I do not know about you, but when I am tired, I usually make bad decisions. I suggest you get more :sleep:
Firstly, I was not playing until 4am, all I did was move the worker and post a screenshot. I couldn't get to play my turns til today because a) I wanted to wait and see what you guys thought of the worker move and b) I couldn't get onto the computer until late.

Secondly, I am a night owl. I will probably make less mistakes at 4am than if I go to bed early and play at lunchtime. It takes me a long time to wake up. In future however, I will try my best to get my turns played before 11pm (6ET) so that you guys can look at the save in the evening. :)

There is no great 20K location on a river unless we plan on abandoning Carthage (greeen site). Forgetting about the capitol, the only missing item is that there is only 1 hill. This location has: 2 bg, 2 river bg, 2 cows, 2 forest, 1 hills, 5 coast, 2 seas, 4 river grass.
I calculate at size 12 there will be 24 sheilds by mining everything.

Its still close to the capitol, but Aqua (that doesn't show up well at all) has many hills but only 2 bg and a cow (the capitols) and oysters. I think we would have 22 shields at size 12.

The game turn is too late for me to grab the turn, so if someone else wants to take it go ahead... Its just about bed time for me

One last thought before I go (sorry for the consecutive posts), here are two sites that are candidates for a 20K city. [See image below].

Site 1: (Hill,river) This is inland and allows for many shields if we irrigate the grasslands. In radius: 4G, 3BG, 2 forest (with G/BG underneath), 3P, 3 hills, 5 mountains.

Site 2: (Plains, river, coastal) This allows us to add coastal wonders to the 20K city, but detracts from shield production. In radius: 3G(1 with cow), 2BG, 1 forest (G/BG underneath), 2P, 3 hills, 2 mountains, 6 coast, 1 sea.

I see MOTH and Zakharov beated me to it, but here are my thoughts on the 20K city position:

Using the color code of the image in attachment:
Advantages: On river, on coast
Disadvantages: The capital will have to be abandonned.
At size 12, it should labor the following (out of despotism):
City:__________2f/2sh
2 Cows (mined): 8f/4sh
4 BG (mined):___8f/8sh
1 H (mined):____1f/3sh
2 F:___________2f/4sh
3 G (mined):____6f/3sh
Total:_________27f/24sh
We could plant 3 forest to get 24f/27sh.
In despotism, we would get 25f/23sh
After we abandon the capital, if it is on BG, we get another sh. We also get the palace for more culture.

Advantages: On coast. Far enough from capital to keep it.
Disadvantages: Will have some corruption (guess: 20% in despotism, 10% in republic), requires an aqueduc & a harbor.
At size 12, it should labor the following (out of despotism):
City:__________2f/2sh
1 Cows (mined): 4f/2sh
1 whale (harbor):4f/1sh
4 BG (mined):___8f/8sh
2 H (mined):____2f/6sh
1 F:___________1f/2sh
2 G (mined):____4f/2sh
Total:_________27f/24sh
We could plant 3 forest to get 24f/27sh.
In despotism, we would get 25f/22sh

Similar to blue, but gives 1 less shield if my count is correct. No harbor needed.

Similar to blue but no harbor.
At size 12, it should labor the following (out of despotism):
City:__________2f/2sh
1 Cows (irr):____5f/1sh
3 BG (mined):___6f/6sh
2 H (mined):____2f/6sh
3 F:___________3f/6sh
3 G (mined):____6f/3sh
Total:_________24f/24sh
In despotism, we would get 24f/23sh by replacing F by G (mined)

Therefore, I suggest the blue spot. The red or the yellow are also good choice. I did not analyse the spot near the oysters as they seem to give less shields.

If we plan on abandoning the capital, I think it should not build any infrastructure. Only settlers, workers & warriors. If we keep it, I suggest settler & warriors first, then workers to join in the 20K city as soon as enough tiles around it can profit from it.

The 2 workers should go work for the 20K city immediately.

P.S.: Someone should double-check my calculations. I am getting tired and I probably made a few mistakes. Since those spots have only a few sh of difference between them, it may be enough for a spot to be better than the yellow one.

Here's a stab at a map based on what we know now.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4DotMap.jpg

Red dot is coastal has the spices and a shield producing coastal tile on expansion, and four forests and a BG in its first tier.

Yellow dot gets a riverbank, two mutton and wool producing hills for 2f2s1g out of the box, two river valley tiles on expansion and also serves as a barrier to any encroaching Romans.

The aqua dot gets a feed lot that can be easily watered, two hills and two bonus grass, plus a forest with spices.

The lilac spots are decent but it's a pick 'em. Of the three I prefer the one SSE of Carthage.

Given the terrain I foresee lots of opportunity for MGL exploitation and the rigorous application of prebuilds if we intend to pursue a 20K 5CC. Sp we need to priortise the our build orders. We also need to preserve our forests for as long as we can as those two shields will come in handy.

If the map is consistent with GOTM28 we share an island with one other nation, apprently the Romans with the 3/3/1 legion. If Vulcan (AKA mad-bax) is good to us then the mountains in the Vale of Lambs will hold iron. If not, then it is going to be archers and NuMercs against legions (not a bad combination).

Interesting set-up. I'm looking forward to everybody's thoughts on this one.

The more I think about it, the more I like the red spot (2 tiles from the capital in my previous post). It is going to take a long time to get construction so without access to fresh water, production would be small for a long time. If we settle on the red spot and accept the fact of having to abandon the capital, the capital would create at least 2 more settlers, then pomp workers to join the 20K city until it gets to size 12 where we abandon the capital, relocating the palace in the 20K city. It would also create warriors when it waits to grow for MP & disband rush.

@Bede: I do not think tight city placement (3 tiles between every city) is a good idea since we only have 5 cities. War with the romans would be tricky, but could yeld a lot of benefits. I do not really like archers vs legions as archers would tend to get killed before they have the chance to get promoted.

IMHO, Rome likes to go at war pretty soon after it gets iron so we may have to accept an early ga. Therefore, it really makes sense to get ready for war, but it may be a little early to think about that.

@ALL: I also like the location fbouthil has listed. The settlers and workers will help make 20K city grow much faster.

My proposals:
1. found 20K city on E-NE from Carthage
2. Start on Colossus immediately in 20K city.
3. Build a worker in Carthage in 3? turns to add immediately to 20K city.

@fbouthil, the advantage of arches and mercs vs legions is that when a legion attacks the archer gets a defensive shot and then the merc defends. This is a nice combo and 1xarch + 2x merc will rarely lose defending against 2x legion. On the attack, I would rather attack with the archers than the mercs as they are cheaper when lost.

As far as research and pre-builds, we are not going to have CB and a temple for an immediate build as writing won't complete for another 20 turns. This also means we won't expand to get 2nd cow for quite some time. After this we can trade writing to Rome for whatever they have at the time probably and if they don't have CB, research it in 6 or so turns. So, 26 turns until CB, 3+ turns until we found 20K city. This might be right about the right length of time to build Colossus.

I don't have the game up right now. Can anyone confirm how many shields colossus would take to build? I can then start calculating when 20K will grow and about how many sheilds it will have on each turn. I think Colossus id 200 sheilds which means:
4tx2, 5t4x, 5tx6,1tx8=66 shields when we grow to size 4.
+4x8, +10=106 size 5
+4x10, +12=158 size 6
+4x11, +14=216 size 7 = 30 turns assuming some corruption and assuming that we haven't artificially increased the size of 20K. If we pump a worker in as soon as another can be built from Carthage then I think we shave off at least 5 turns.

If we have a bunch of archers hanging arround to disband we can also get the temple in 1 or 2 turns after this.

Yes, I confirm that the colossus is 200sh. I think MOTH underestimates the corruption and I would add 2t, but I may be wrong about this.

As for pumping workers, I think it would be wise to think we won't do it until we get settlers. Otherwise, the next city would come pretty late and we would be pretty weak. If I calculate correctly, Carthage will have 4f toward size 3 when we found the 20K city. Then it won't work the cow anymore so growth in 8t afterward (the sooner we can get the next settler). Then it is going to take another 20t before another settler can be built, which put us just before the colossus is built.

Anyone wants to try to see where we could set the next cities if we take that spot for the 20K city? I think we should think about RCP around the 20K city since the palace is going to relocate there. I think it would be important. If it is crappy for the next cities, then we may take it into account before deciding to settling there or not.

I do not have the time right now; I have to go to work.

I have done a few calculations for some of the proposed 20K sites. I will refer to positions 1 and 2 in my image (post 42) and the four coloured dots in fbouthil's image (post 43). I have calculated the best output possible for a size 12 city in Republic and also for a size 20 city with all land squares railroaded. Output is food/shields/commerce.

Position 1: Size 12 - 24/22/21 , Size 20 RR - 40/50/33
Position 2: Size 12 - 24/25/23 , Size 20 RR - 41/39/37
Red circle: Size 12 - 24/27/22 , Size 20 RR - 45/36/35
Green circle: Size 12 - 24/25/20 , Size 20 RR - 43/33/35
Blue circle: Size 12 - 24/25/17 , Size 20 RR - 43/42/31
Yellow circle: Size 12 - 24/25/18 , Size 20 RR - 42/45/29

I am unsure of how many shields and commerce are produced in the centre square of a size 7+ city with our two civ traits. I have assumed the tile to give 2/2/3 (4 commerce on a river) though it will be the same wherever the city is placed, so will not affect the scaling of these numbers.

I can give details of what tiles need working when we choose a location. It is too much to write for all 6 sites.

The red circle site will give us maximum shield production at size 12, but will suffer once it gets to size 20. If we do move to the red circle, we can also build another city at position 1 with no overlapping tiles. I think a city at position 1 will be important to get us iron and hopefully coal from the mountain range.

The yellow circle site is useful. It has good size 12 production and also good size 20 production. It will require an aqueduct though and we will not get construction for a while yet. Our 20K city must be at size 12 asap. This site only overlaps one square with Carthage, so we could keep Carthage until we get sanitation and use the palace build to prebuild wonders in the new city.

Just some things to think about. I definitely think a production powerhouse at position 1 needs settling whether it is a 20K city or not.

I based city placmennt on the assumption that Carthage would not need to work any more fields than its immediate surroundings for a long time so the spacing is really pretty loose.

Moving the capitol to the coast will make for awkward future placement, I think.

Also my lavender dot SSW of the capitol is badly placed and should be moved one SE towards the giant clam.

Lastly, making the capitol the 20K loses the palace as a prebuild option.

Yes, I confirm that the colossus is 200sh. I think MOTH underestimates the corruption and I would add 2t, but I may be wrong about this.

I do not doubt you. Where we are only 2 tiles from the capitol corruption will be very small, but I would not be suprised if it takes 2 more turns than I planned. We might shave another turn or 2 off by disbanding a warrior or 2 before we are forced to switch to a wonder.

Anyone wants to try to see where we could set the next cities if we take that spot for the 20K city? I think we should think about RCP around the 20K city since the palace is going to relocate there. I think it would be important. If it is crappy for the next cities, then we may take it into account before deciding to settling there or not.

I do not have the time right now; I have to go to work.

Assuming that we found 20K on the river/grass/coast then Zak's #1 (size 20 powerhouse) would be at RCP 5.5. RCP 5.5 is nice because there are good positions with no tile overlap and the temple radius's link up nicely with few gaps. The other 2 locations would be Bede's purple i the middle of all the spices and a bg on the coast near the whales. City #5 would then be used when we abandon the capitol and would be founded at a location of strategic importance.

Still, I don't think RCP is very important in 5CC. I think it would be better to grab stategic locations, like the valley of the sheep. We will need the southern outpost to support the war against Rome. The 20K city will get to 100 then 1000 culture pretty fast and will have a good size cultural border. We should plan to link the cultural borders of these cities assuming that 20K will be 1000 and each of the others will be 100. This is CxxxxxxxC from 20K and CxxxxxxC from others. Exceptions to this are certainly within reason for better locations. We want as little room as possible for other cultures to settle our continent. Second thought: maybe we do want other cultures to settle where we then attack, get MGLs, and then settle for peace?

Moving the capitol to the coast will make for awkward future placement, I think.

Lastly, making the capitol the 20K loses the palace as a prebuild option.

These are both true. We may not need to abandon Carthage for quite some time. By that point we can have 20K at size 12 and another city at size 12 and force the palace to jump to the non-20K city.

Completely unrelated thought for later in the game:

Would this work (all in one turn to stay within 5CC limit):
1. Build a bunch of settlers and get them in position.
2. Found cities and/or capture cities so that we have at least OCN/2 # of cities.
3. Start production of Forbidden Palace in 20K city.
4. Abandon all cities except for 5CC.

If this would work it would have some nice side affects of lower corruption in all cities, especially 20K. In addition it would supply extra culture to 20K city.

Can anyone tell me what is the OCN for this map and our Civ? Does the commercial trait affect the OCN?

We might shave another turn or 2 off by disbanding a warrior or 2 before we are forced to switch to a wonder.
Switching to a wonder becomes unavailable if any of the shields in the city stockpile are gained from either a forest chop or disbanding a unit. All wonder shields must come from the tiles being worked (or a leader).


Still, I don't think RCP is very important in 5CC. I think it would be better to grab stategic locations, like the valley of the sheep.
You are right, RCP is not useful in 5CC at all. What is vitally important is
a) securing resources and
b) getting maximum possible output from all 5 cities.
RCP is needed to keep a productive core when you have many cities. With only 5 cities corruption is not a major factor (unless you build a long way from the capital, ie. 20+ squares. In my test game I had my furthest city at 15.5 tiles from the capital. Once a courthouse was built, it was almost as productive as the other cities (under 10% corruption). It was built that far away to secure wines as a third luxury.

In favor of the river/forest/coast location (fbouthil's red) I have noted fbouthil and MOTH in favor. I wasn't able to determine Bede's and Zakarov's opinion and I haven't seen any comments by TB on this.

In about 20 minutes I will start lunch and can take my turn in the cycle. I don't want to step on any SGOTM etiquite, do we need concensus on something like this or should I just go ahead an do a turn?

Can anyone tell me what is the OCN for this map and our Civ? Does the commercial trait affect the OCN?
The world size is listed as mystery. From the scale of the minimap, I estimate that we are playing something between standard and large. The OCN for standard is 16, large is 24. AFAIK the commercial trait reduces corruption in all cities, it doesn't affect the OCN.

Your FP idea is an interesting one, but I doubt we could afford the shields to build enough settlers to make it work, and we won't be able to support a large enough military to take the towns from other civs in one turn. It probably isn't even possible to build the FP when you go back to 5 cities. In my test game, I was half way through building Manhattan Project when I lost my uranium and the production was auto switched to something else. I wouldn't want to try all of this just to lose the FP build when we cut back down to 5 cities. Nice idea though :thumbsup:

In favor of the river/forest/coast location (fbouthil's red) I have noted fbouthil and MOTH in favor. I wasn't able to determine Bede's and Zakarov's opinion and I haven't seen any comments by TB on this.

In about 20 minutes I will start lunch and can take my turn in the cycle. I don't want to step on any SGOTM etiquite, do we need concensus on something like this or should I just go ahead an do a turn?
I don't think we all have to agree in a "by the rules" sense, it just helps us as a team if we are all pulling towards the same goal.

As for city placement, having thought about this for a couple of hours, I say Carthage will have to go sooner or later. We can't let it grow to size 20 as we would waste those two coast squares. I agree that fbouthil's red circle spot is probably the best for the 20K city. I wish I had thought of that before moving the settler N on turn 20, it could be there already and now it will take two more turns. I was more worried about the spices at the time.

Most of our culture buildings will be in place before we get hospitals, so the early production and coastal/river location at the red spot makes for the best 20K site. Plus we have a head start improving the tiles close to it. Carthage doesn't need to be disbanded straight away, it can stay as a military/worker production line, just make sure to give tile priority to the new city. Get a barracks built there for some veteran units. It can be disbanded when we are all set with four other cities and need to settle a new fifth city.

I definitely want that powerhouse at my position 1. We could jump the palace there when the time comes as it will be in a nice central location.

I think the site 1 as shown below the down the river to the Vale of Lambs.

Position 1: Size 12 - 24/22/21 , Size 20 RR - 40/50/33
Position 2: Size 12 - 24/25/23 , Size 20 RR - 41/39/37

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/20Ksite.JPG

I take it MOTH is playing next. Are you guys all playing 20 turns? If so then the stop dates are:
MOTH - Turn 40 (2150BC)
player3 - Turn 60 (1500BC)
player4 - Turn 80 (1000BC)
player5 - Turn 100 (550BC)
Zakharov - Turn 110 (350BC)

This is just a reminder of which turn corresponds to which date, so that we don't get out of sync. I see from the submissions list that some teams have stopped at 3050BC (Turn 19). They forget that the turn you open the save is turn 0, not turn 1 :)

These are both true. We may not need to abandon Carthage for quite some time. By that point we can have 20K at size 12 and another city at size 12 and force the palace to jump to the non-20K city.
Moving a lot of units into another city also would result in the palace going there.

Well, I calculated corruption based on a standard map and a OCN of 20 (didn't think to check PTW's OCNs), and based on Zakharov's thoughts regarding the map size, they shouldn't be too far off. I decided to calculate for all sites suggested for a 20k city. These figures assume a despotism, a noncapital, and a connection to the capital. I calculated with and without a courthouse, and the closest to and farthest from the capital (not farthest for the red site).
In order no courthouse/rank 1, no courthouse/rank 4, courthouse/rank 1, courthouse/rank 4:
position 1-distance 3-11.5%/18.6%/6.6%/12.4%
position 2-distance 3-11.5%/18.6%/6.6%/12.4%
red circle-distance 2-8.5%/5.0%
green circle-distance 4-14.6%/22.7%/8.1%/14.0%
blue circle-distance 4-14.6%/22.7%/8.1%/14.0%
yellow circle-distance 5-17.7%/24.7%/9.6%/15.5%

I'm going to eat lunch now; MOTH, it's all right if you play before I conclude my number-crunching (which could prolong until this evening). The red spot looks good. I think that no waste will occur up to 5 shields, one shield will be wasted up to 17 shields, and by the time more than two shields would be wasted, corruption have lowered.

I have played 10 turns as follows. I suggest that the next player plays until we get Writing (11 turns) and we can examine what are the trading opportunities with Rome.

SGOTM

turn 0 - 3000 BC: switched Carthage to product Merc. We are losing a couple gold to unit support and this can be disbanded later to rush the temple.

1 - 2950: worker and settler E and explore.

2 - 2900: carthage grows to 2, science back to 10%, worker road, settler SE, warriors explore

3 - 2850: Utica founded and start on Colossus (grow in 5), worker mine other carthage bg, warriors explore

4 - 2800: warriors explore, worker move to Utica BG. Find more Roman borders in the south and they have a river and cow for Rome.

5 - 2750: worker mine bg, warriors explore. There is a barbarian adjacent to Rome and another cow just outside temple radius of Rome.

IBT: barb leaves Rome toward our warrior.

6 - 2710: worker moves to roaded grass across river near Utica, warriors explore. I think I've found the edges of this continent. The warrior near Rome will head North to try and interfere with future settler pairs from Rome.

7 - 2670: Carthage !Numidian Mercenary#1! > settler in 6 (grow in 4). He will stay in carthage for MP for now and in case any barbs start roaming. warriors explore - definately a continent. worker to bg

8 - 2630: Utica grows and laborers adjusted. Check Science slider as we are at +10GPT and writing is still in 13 so set back to 10%. Rome still only have WC - will give it to us for 1GPT plus 110 G - I say no. warriors explore - Rome has a settler pair ahead of our warrior heading north. Our warrior is in Rome's territory so I didn't have to attack the barb fortified on a hill.

IBT - barb warrior attacks us - we win but are down to 1 HP. I won't bother resting yet. Rome asks us to leave and I say yes.

9 - 2590: warriors explore - there are only a few coast squares we can't see now and some interior territory of Rome

10 - 2550: warriors explore. I left one warrior with movement in the south for the next player to decide if we should explore some of Rome's innards. Worker starts Irrigating toward other cow (even though we won't need this for some time. Carthage: size 2 - grow in 1, settler in 3 - Merc will be needed for 3 turns as MP. Utica - size 2 - grow in 3, Colossus in 45 - Merc will be needed as MP here once Utica grows and Carthage builds settler. Sceince check - can't get it in less than 11. Rome still has WC and will now sell to us for 126 Gold (out of 149 in treasury)

Firaxis 79, Jason 105

Two attachments are North and South of the continent.

The save is here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_BC2550_01.SAV)

Edit (my work PC makes terrible images for some reason): Here is where the Roman settler pair moved (red line) and suspected move (blue line). You can't tell in the image but there are sheep and/or wool in that area so I expect them to settle soon. The escort is one warrior.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sg4.bede.bc2550.wrome.south.JPG
(still a terrible picture, good thing I'm not a graphics artist or I'd get fired)

I realized I didn't include a roster. I'm assuming we are normally doing 10 turn rotations with some exceptions. Current roster is (with one of those exceptions).

fbouthil - 11 turns so that we get Writing
TimBentley
Bede
Zakharov
MOTH (skip from Sept 24 through Sept 26)

I've also included my away time where I should be skipped.

IIRC, mad-bax said that we should decide how many turns we were going to play if it was not the standard. Then Bede said 20t each for the first round and nobody made any objections. Then MOTH says 10t except 11t for me so we get writing (I am not sure why it is important for a player to end their turn at that point). I am a bit confused. :confused: :confused: Should I let MOTH play the next 10t or should I play my 10t or 11t? I do not want to do something mad-bax considers prohibited.

Anyway, I am going to eat supper and will check afterward.

If it is my turn (and it looks like it), then I will play tonight. I will settle the next town on Zak#1 spot (it seems to be the concensus). I guess the 4th town should be near the spices, but I won't get another settler in my turns. I will probably divert a worker toward the new city as it seems we have more worked tiled than Utica can labor.

The number of turns you take is a guide only. You can vary the number of turns you take to suit your own circmstances. The only requirement is that you do not skip, or reduce the number of turns a "weaker" player takes in order to avoid the weaker player taking difficult turns, or increasing the overall proportion if turns taken by your elite players. I would prefer it if you state in the thread somewhere how many turns per session you will be playing if it isn't 10.

I take this to mean that:
1. Its not set in stone
2. we can vary this as long as we document why and how many turns.
3. as long as the why is not to give elite players more turns

I think you should take 11 turns. This lets us get Writing and then we can discuss what the Romans will trade us for it and what to research next.

I agree that spot 1 has a lot of consensus.

For city #4 I think we should consider another powerhouse location like the valley of the sheep.

As for turn count, take ten or twenty, whichever you can comfortably complete.

Zak#1 is pretty important right now. The spices can even wait if we want to move on the Vale of Lambs.

All right then. Got it. I will play until we get writing and post what the romans would give for it.

2550BC (0) - warrior will not enter roman territory just yet.

Initial Utica status: Colossus in 45t.

2510BC (1) - :sleep:

2470BC (2) - warrior S goes to the wool hill just outside roman territory revealing lots of roman territory.

IBT
Carthage: settler -> NM
Rome learns IW
Rome found Antium near the last 2 wools.

2430BC (3)
Ceasar wants all our gold + 6gpt for IW so no deal.
NM go to Utica for MP.
Advisors says there are Liao tribes near Carthage. Since the warriors are pretty far, I switch Carthage to warrior.
Warrior S continues hiking on hills, revealing the territory around Rome.

2390BC (4)
Found Leptis Magna of Zak#1 :D -> Barrack
Advisors say there are Puyo tribes near LMOZ1. Hum. Another tribe.
Warrior N discover Liao camp.

IBT - a wandering Liao warrior shows up beyond their camp.

2350BC (5)
Dispersed the Laio camp without a scratch. :cool:
Warrior W sees Puyo camp on hill on the other side of the river.
Warrior S goes in roman territory near Veii (there is no way to get back home without going through it).

IBT
The people :love: me! They offer to expand my palace! I ask them to mow the lawn.
Strangely, Rome does not ask me to leave its territory.

2310BC (6)
Warrior W goes toward Puyo camp and see a Puyo warrior 2 tiles toward LMOZ1.

IBT
This time Ceasar ask me to leave. Sure.
Laio warrior attacks our warrior and die.
Carthage: warrior->NM

2270BC (7)
warrior goes to Utica as it will grow next turn and need more MP.

IBT
Puyo warrior attacks our warrior and die.

2230BC (8) - :sleep:

2190BC (9)
Buy roman worker for 109g
I am tempted to join a worker to Utica, but then I remember that it is better to wait until it is size 7 when it takes 40f to grow instead of 20f.
Warrior dies attacking Puyo camp. :cry:

2150BC (10) - :sleep:

IBT - Research Writing -> CB in 4t at 100%

2110BC (11) - :sleep:

Score: 95 Jason: 126

Ceasar is willing to trade IW, WC & pot for write & 172g. We can take that deal or wait 4t to trade CB. In any way, I do not think we should keep any tech from Rome. If the other 7 civs are on the same continent, they are going to research much faster than us, so we are better to try to accelerate research on our little continent. Trade CB for cash in 4t if we decide to accept the deal right now.

Final Utica status: Colossus in 17t

Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_BC2110_01.SAV)

The next player will have to be careful about lux as Utica grows in 2t and already has max MP (2).

The warrior was going to LMOZ1 in case the puyo send warriors our way. You could send the NM being built in Carthage to disperse it; it may give it a promotion if you are lucky.

TimBentley - up
Bede - on deck
Zakharov
MOTH (skip from Sept 24 through Sept 26)
fbouthil - just played

I got it, but I will not play until tomorrow. Trading for IW will help resolve where the next city shall be placed.

I'd say that we should take the Rome trade now, but we should offer GPT rather than straight gold. This will help keep Rome from any plans of attack until we are a little more ready. I don't think we want to attack Rome within 20 turns anyway.

We should also switch to building archers instead of Mercs for the slight disband advantage when we push to get the temple after Colossus. IIRC: archer = 20 shields to build and 5 shields on disband = 25% whereas Merc = 30 to build and 7 disband = 23% and warrior = 10 build and 2 disband = 20%

What do we want research after CB? Lit (18) = GL, Lib; Myst(?) = Oracle; Map(?) = Galley, GL.
I think Lit is the clear winner as GL will be key in keeping up in the tech race and its a ton on culture. The 18 turns may come down slightly with growth and Colossus (col will get us 3 or 4 extra commerce under Despot).

What after that depends on what the Roman's get in between.

I have been looking at possible city sites on the other side of the mountain range. Most of them are out for:
a) having too many mountains to produce enough food to reach size 20.
b) having too many coast/sea tiles to produce enough shields (this game will be about finished before offshore platforms)
c) not sited next to a river.

Point c is important because we are still many turns from construction (aqueducts). We cannot wait that long to settle it as the Romans will get there first.

Therefore, if we want a city in the mountains, I propose the site in this image. It is the best compromise position for my three points above. I have calculated that it can produce: [food/shields/commerce]
At size 12 (Republic): 24/21/22
At size 20 (w/Railroads): 40/38/35

I can provide details of worker actions if we agree on this site.

Interesting. I did not know about the disband ratio (looks like 25% rounded down). I agree with Carthage building archer. Should Zak#1 also build archers? I thought it should build Mercs for defense once the barrack is finished, but now I think building archers would be more focused on the 20K target.

I agree with researching lit after CB. I would trade CB to rome ASAP, in hope they research Myst for us. I think we should research toward republic after lit, unless we run out of wonders to build.

BTW, according to the civ3edit, Myst should take about 8t to research and MM 12t. They are both research paths the AI like to take so let's hope Ceasar research those for us.

@Zakharov: I would wait until we see where iron is before deciding a site for the next city.

I have also been looking at possible sites near the spices. I believe we need this to be an inland city to boost shield production. If we choose the site in my previous post, we would already have a coastal city on each side of the continent anyway.

I have therefore suggested three sites for consideration, shown in the image as numbers 1, 2 and 3 (although I can change these numbers if our latest city is forever enshrined as position 1 :D ).

Position 1 has: 1 H, 1 M, 8 G, 4 BG, 3 F and 3 F(spices).
Position 2 has: 2 H, 12 G, 3 BG, 1 F and 2 F(spices).
Position 3 has: 3 H, 12 G, 3 BG, 1 F anf 1 F(spices).

The production stats are as follows (food/shields/commerce):
1. Size 12 - 24/21/22, Size 20 - 41/35/31
2. Size 12 - 24/21/20, Size 20 - 40/34/28
3. Size 12 - 24/22/16, Size 20 - 41/36/25

I think position 2 is the weak link here. Position 1 produces more commerce and only 1 less shield in each case than position 3. Position 1 also has 6 forests compared to just 2 for position 3, meaning it has a greater chance of uncovering extra BGs. However, position 3 will give our cultural borders more coverage towards the north of our empire (once they expand a couple of times).

Opinions? :)

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I have just realised an error in my calculations. :o

I have forgotten to add on the Republic/Democracy commerce bonus. This adds 12 to all the size 12 numbers and 20 to the size 20 numbers. As the same number is added to all calculations, the scaling remains unchanged. This applies to all of my previous calculations.

I suppose the numbers are correct if we ever had a Monarchy or Communist government, but in 5CC we should always be in a representative government once they become available.

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I agree on researching Literature. The GLib will be essential to keep up with the tech pace (plus it gives 4 culture/turn). Being able to drop the science rate will allow us to spend more on unit upkeep. We want to keep Lit to ourselves as long as possible though to make sure nobody else can build the GLib.

After Lit, we need CoL, then Republic. We will probably have to research Republic as it is too expensive to trade for and our GLib will not be finished by then (to get it for free). We need the commerce bonus asap. We will also have better conditions to trigger our golden age.

Assuming we get the Colossus (commercial), we want to avoid building the Pyramids or the Great Wall before we are a Republic, as these would trigger a golden age via the industrious trait. Also, if we somehow get into a war with Rome before Republic, then try to avoid using NuMercs. In this case attacking is certainly the best form of defence.

A question on the GLib, do any of you know if you can get free techs having only met one civ? I don't usually build the GLib, but if I do I will have met more than one other civ before building it. :confused:

@fbouthil: If we build on my proposed mountain range/sheep city site, our cultural borders will expand to cover most of that mountain range over time. If we get IW soon, then the decision will be easy, but if we wait too long then Rome will get there first. Also, most other sites in the area are poor and will have to be disbanded later in the game.

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I am tempted to join a worker to Utica, but then I remember that it is better to wait until it is size 7 when it takes 40f to grow instead of 20f.
I hope you meant a native worker. If a slave worker is added as a foreign citizen it creates two problems:
1) It creates the possiblity of a culture flip, even if your city has a large culture value. The garrison required to prevent it is small however.
2) Whenever we are at war with that citizen's home nation in the future, it will create a lot more war weariness than a city full of our own citizens.

If we eliminate Rome then neither of these points are a problem, but I think we should keep Rome alive but weakened, so that we can use on-off wars for leader farming. Our starting continent isn't very large, so Rome will not be able to grow too big for us to deal with.

I do agree with waiting until size 7 to add native workers, unless we are joining 11 workers on the same turn to a size 1 city. :)

A question on the GLib, do any of you know if you can get free techs having only met one civ? I don't usually build the GLib, but if I do I will have met more than one other civ before building it. :confused:
You get free techs that two other civs know, meaning you indeed need to know more than one other civ.

hope you meant a native worker. If a slave worker is added as a foreign citizen it creates two problems:
1) It creates the possiblity of a culture flip, even if your city has a large culture value. The garrison required to prevent it is small however.
2) Whenever we are at war with that citizen's home nation in the future, it will create a lot more war weariness than a city full of our own citizens.

If we eliminate Rome then neither of these points are a problem, but I think we should keep Rome alive but weakened, so that we can use on-off wars for leader farming. Our starting continent isn't very large, so Rome will not be able to grow too big for us to deal with.

I do agree with waiting until size 7 to add native workers, unless we are joining 11 workers on the same turn to a size 1 city. :)
Yes, generally waiting until size 7 sounds good. With a garrison of 2, we could join two foreign workers while still having no flip risk (assuming Rome doesn't have greater culture). There is also an assimilation chance of 1%. Am I correct that in PTW, slave workers work half as fast as native workers in industrious civilizations? Regardless, you make a good point about unhappiness in times of war.

I agree with literature first, then probably code of laws and republic.

We are on a standard map and there is an OCN of 16, based on CivAssist's corruption numbers (although it seems Carthage should have 4% corruption rather than 6%). Assuming despotism, a connection to the capital, and no courthouse, Zakharov's mountain site would have 27.8% corruption, site 1 would have 12.5% corruption, and site 2 and 3 would have 15.5% corruption. I think site 1 looks the best. I think settling the spices first would be better (especially considering fbouthil's comment on Utica's happiness). I might investigate city sites later, unless the rest of you analyze it well enough by the time I can.

For City # 4 I agree that the coast south of the mountains is a good location.

For city #5 if the main consideration is to secure luxuries then I think we should also consider position M1. This location has 3 hills, 3 forest, 4 bg, 4 g, 1 tundra, 3 coast. I'm not great with the numbers, but I think its 24 food/22 sheilds/14 commerce. I'm not sure what it would be at size 20 with RR.

Two spices will be in our cultural boundary at temple radius once carthage is at 100 culture (20 turns). BY the time Carthage is abandoned #5 should have 100 culture on its own (temple, library) and the cultural border should link up to Utica. Ivory will also be just outside our cultural boundary at culture 100 (as well as more tundra for possible Oil). I'm not sure what the radius is at 1000 culture, but if it doesn't get Ivory then a unit or two will prevent any AI from placing a fishing/sealing village there.

As for the initial trade with Rome:
We can get Pot, WC, IW for writing and either:
9 GPT + 9G or 171G

The GPT deal costs us 189G or 18 more G over 20 turns. I personally prefer the GPT option as it has a better chance that Rome will remain peaceful.

Two spices will be in our cultural boundary at temple radius once carthage is at 100 culture (20 turns). BY the time Carthage is abandoned #5 should have 100 culture on its own (temple, library) and the cultural border should link up to Utica. Ivory will also be just outside our cultural boundary at culture 100 (as well as more tundra for possible Oil). I'm not sure what the radius is at 1000 culture, but if it doesn't get Ivory then a unit or two will prevent any AI from placing a fishing/sealing village there.
I think it would take 1000 culture for Carthage's borders to reach the spices. On the other hand, I think 10 culture in the spices city and 100 culture in Carthage would put some spices in our culture.

Also, here are the correct corruption statistics for Zakharov and MOTH's suggestions (despotism, connected to capital, no courthouse):
mountain site: 39.3%
1-21.1%
2/3-24.1%
M1-30.2%
:blush: In my previous numbers, I was accidentally dividing by 82 instead of 2.

I think it would take 1000 culture for Carthage's borders to reach the spices. On the other hand, I think 10 culture in the spices city and 100 culture in Carthage would put some spices in our culture.

With my location I'm fairly certain that 100 in carthage will 'fill the gap' to 10 in M1.

Wow! :eek: You guys think a little bit too much in advance, I think. First thing first.

1. Make the deal to so we can see iron on the map (I agree with paying gpt).
2. Settle the mountain city as per Zakharov suggestion unless we have a problem getting iron. I did not see any other suggestion for city placement in that area so I assume it is accepted by the team.

@TimBentley:You can put a screenshot after the iron deal if you want a discussion about how to get the iron.

By the end of TimBentley's turn, we won't get the spice settler yet, so we have some time before we decide its exact position. I do not think we have enough workers to start a path toward it yet.

I am not sure that keeping lit to ourself is such a good idea. It does look like it may take a long time before we meet another civ and I would like Rome to help us research faster. Also, when Rome is building libraries, it is not building units to try to conquer us...

BTW, I like MOTH position for the spice city because of the possibility of getting ivory as bonus, but it is going to take some time before we have enough border expansion to get all 3 spices.

To get techs from the TGLib, we should build a few galleys when we get MM to find other civs faster.

When the 5th city is founded and big enough, then we can think about abandoning the capital and decide whether we want the 5th city and whether we want to conquer Antium or replace it to get the Wool. Oups! It seems I am not immune to thinking way too much in advance. :blush:

The only problem I have with position M1 is that it is coastal, which limits shield output. Here are the output numbers for the four sites (with the Rep/Dem commerce bonus added):
1. Size 12 - 24/21/34, Size 20 - 41/35/51
2. Size 12 - 24/21/32, Size 20 - 40/34/48
3. Size 12 - 24/22/28, Size 20 - 41/36/45
M1. Size 12 - 24/23/29, Size 20 - 40/32/47

Looking at these stats, M1 compares favourably to the other 3 sites. It has more shields and comparable commerce at size 12, whilst at size 20 it only loses 2-4 shields and has a nice commerce income. I suppose it does only have 4 coastal squares.

Ok, you have me convinced. :) Allowing the extra room for our cultural borders to expand is probably worth the loss of a couple of shields at size 20. The only problem is; how does corruption affect the output as it is 2 tiles further from the capital? Probably only 1 shield and 2-3 commerce I would guess.

With regards to the ivory, we will be waiting too long for our borders to expand far enough to cover it. We will have to build a colony, perhaps with the Roman slave worker we have? We will need the happiness boost once our cities grow towards size 12.

@TimBentley:You can put a screenshot after the iron deal if you want a discussion about how to get the iron.
I think everybody will agree on how to get the iron.

2110(0)-buy pottery, warrior code, iron working from Rome for writing, 5gpt, 81g (saving 8 gold while still discouraging Roman attack)
only iron is next to Rome
switch Carthage to archer

2070(1)-flubbed a MM opportunity last turn, switch two BG to two grass by water

IBT-Carthage archer->archer, MM back to BGs

2030(2)-switch archer and NM in Utica
set lux to 10%

1990(3)-zzz

IBT-learn CB, start on literature, set science to 90% (due in 16)

1950(4)-sell CB to Rome for 64g

1910(5)-try to send warrior through Rome

IBT-Rome asks (but does not demand) warrior to leave
Carthage archer->settler

1870(6)-zzz

IBT-LMOZ1 barracks->NM
Rome does not demand our warrior leave

1830(7)-Rome knows the wheel, wants approximately 3gpt, 145g for it
raise lux to 20%

1790(8)-switch Carthage to archer for one turn earlier completion of temple in Utica

1750(9)-I'll stop here since fbouthil played 11

Notes:Colossus due in 4
Literature due in about 12
With 3 disbanded archers (including one being produced in Carthage) Utica should be able to build the temple in 4 turns, then start a prebuild for the Great Library
Rome would sell the wheel for 3gpt, 122g (much too high a price)

Here is the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_BC1750_01.SAV).
Bede - up
Zakharov - on deck
MOTH (skip from Sept 24 through Sept 26)
fbouthil
TimBentley - just recently completed the turns allotted to him

The only problem is; how does corruption affect the output as it is 2 tiles further from the capital? Probably only 1 shield and 2-3 commerce I would guess.
Well, since you asked, assuming size 20, republic, and a courthouse, position 1 would lose 4 shields and 6 commerce (11% corruption), and M1 would lose 4 or 5 (my calculations say 4.491 so probably 4) shields and 7 commerce (14% corruption).

I think making an ivory colony would be a good idea.

We can probably sell literature for the wheel, and I suspect Rome will have learned another technology (probably map making).

Edit: That's interesting how my messages merged like that.

Edit: That's interesting how my messages merged like that.
I noticed that exact same thing earlier. Check out post #71. That was supposed to be 4 separate posts. When I posted the second one it merged with the first and I thought there must be a problem with my browser. :confused:

I then deleted the second part and tried to repost it separately, but got a message that I had already posted the same thing within the last 5 minutes. So I put it back in the first post and edited in the dashes to keep them apart, then did the same for my next two 'posts'.

Thunderfall must have added some automated system to prevent consecutive posting. :)

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Edit: Well that just proves that idea doesn't it :wallbash:

Post 2 --

I think everybody will agree on how to get the iron...

...only iron is next to Rome.
ROME MUST DIE :ar15: :sniper: :borg:

Well mad-bax wouldn't want us fighting against the Romans without legions would he? :mischief:

This is all designed to draw us into a despotic golden age isn't it?

In that case, we should get the M1 city site next for luxury grabbing. My other mountain site can wait for now unless we want to stop the Romans getting there first. It will take many turns to build a road through the mountains. Rome (or somewhere close to it) is looking like a very nice number 5 city site right now. :thumbsup:

BTW I just realised that we will need Philosophy as well as CoL before we can research Republic. I am so used to [c3c] where I shoot for Philosophy every time that I forgot we still don't have it.

I agree with the fact that we will need an ivory colony before the spice city can expand enough to include it but that is not the priority here.

In 3t, Utica grows to size 7 at which point it becomes more efficient for workers to join it. So a question arise: Do we use the other 2 cities to pump workers to join Utica or do they build a settler each to grow our empire?

This is all designed to draw us into a despotic golden age isn't it?
I see you are much more aggressive than me (and I thought I was pretty aggressive). Unless I get horsemen or swordmen, I usually do not fight against legion. I would be tempted to wait until we have something that has a better attack ratio against legions like longbowmen, but that would probably be a mistake, especially since waiting that long would mean attacking cities with a better defense bonus because it is at least size 7.

I would like to trade for TW, but we could wait until we have lit to trade for it.

Besides that I really do not have any new suggestions, so I will repeat my previous suggestions: Build galleys in the next city to meet other civs faster.

If we are confident we can get the mountain spot after the spice spot, then I agree to get the spices first.

Got it.

Galleys are good.

Archers and catapaults and NuMercs for Rome I think.

On settlement: we really need to get down the valley. If Rome gets a toehold breaking out of the core will be a mess unless we use lots of boats.

In a situation like this a Despotic GA is not a 'bad thing'. The value of the GLib as a reserach producer is pretty low with only one neighbor so the extra cash will fuel research across the more expensive of the AA techs, and the extra shields are a big help until we can get the terrain developed.

Twenty turns of growth and terrain development will recover the diffference lost when the GA ends.

I see you are much more aggressive than me (and I thought I was pretty aggressive). Unless I get horsemen or swordmen, I usually do not fight against legion. I would be tempted to wait until we have something that has a better attack ratio against legions like longbowmen, but that would probably be a mistake, especially since waiting that long would mean attacking cities with a better defense bonus because it is at least size 7.
When I said we are being drawn into a despotic golden age, I meant that we are being forced to defend the legions with our NuMercs.

We will not have a better defensive unit until gunpowder (if we even get a saltpeter resource [pissed]) and our lack of iron means it is difficult to use an 'offence is the best form of defence' strategy. We cannot use swordsmen to ward off an attack on our cities, so our most favourable matchup against 3/3/1 legions is the NuMerc 2/3/1. Unless we suffer a crushing defeat, we will be into a golden age before we want to be.

Our only hope of avoiding this will be to fortify several cheap warriors in the mountain range, fighting a war of attrition.

Horsemen won't be very useful unless we build a road through the mountain range.

Of course, we could also become pacifists to avoid the Roman legions. :cringe:

Archers and catapaults and NuMercs for Rome I think.

I never usually build catapults. I believe artillery fire is only useful when deployed in large numbers, so I would normally wait for cannons when I can support 20+ of them.

However in this case, with no iron and facing legions, maybe a group of 5-8 catapults could swing the balance in favour of our archers.

In a situation like this a Despotic GA is not a 'bad thing'.

You may be right here. We will be at war with Rome sooner or later as this continent isn't big enough for both of us. If we wait for a Republic government (30 turns?) we may waste our golden age fighting legions and size 7+ Roman cities.

If we are resigned to a despotic golden age we could use it to boost Utica towards the GLib, and also to research MM quicker. This would allow us to contact the other civs earlier, which may outweigh the value of a Republic golden age. :)

Since both Carthage & Zak#1 are almost size 3, I suggest we settle both the spice city & the city down the valley soon, but I do not think Zak#1 can build a settler in Bede's turn (unless we switch the NuMerc being built).

@Zakharov: A road down the valley is already being built. :)

It is probably evident, but I will say it just in case:

Once Utica expands (maybe even before), let Carthage labor the irrigate cow. If Utica use both cows, it grows every 8t and Carthage grows every 10t. If Utica use the mined cow and Carthage the irrigated cow, Utica will grow every 14t and Carthage every 5t. Carthage would build workers to join Utica faster than Utica can grow alone.
When barbs appear, use NuMerc (veteran if possible) to fight them. It would really help getting leaders if we had some elite NuMerc when Rome decides to attack us.
I would like some cover for the worker building the valley road in case barbs appear. Maybe the warrior S on his way home.


That's pretty much all I can think of that will affect Bede's turn. My other ideas depend on how the game develops itself.

N.B. : Looking at the scores, I see we are trailing the other teams a bit. :( I think it is because we have less territory since territory is most of our score. Hopefully, it will be compensated by the fact the 20K city will grow faster. Any comments on that? It is probably too early to think about that...

N.B. : Looking at the scores, I see we are trailing the other teams a bit. :( I think it is because we have less territory since territory is most of our score. Hopefully, it will be compensated by the fact the 20K city will grow faster. Any comments on that? It is probably too early to think about that...
I would guess they did one of two things different to us:
1) Settled on the spot, built no settlers for a while and concentrated on getting an early wonder in a large capital city.
2) Moved to our Utica site and settled there first, then rapidly expanded from there to get 5 cities as quickly as possible.

I can't believe they have any leaders this early in the game to rush any wonders.

We will have the Colossus soon, which should push up our score.

Anyway, are we going for highest score or fastest variant win? It will be very unlikely we will get both. We need not worry about how our score compares if we end up with a quick 20K win.

BTW I am fully agreed with your three points fbouthil. :thumbsup:

I would guess they did one of two things different to us:
1) Settled on the spot, built no settlers for a while and concentrated on getting an early wonder in a large capital city.
2) Moved to our Utica site and settled there first, then rapidly expanded from there to get 5 cities as quickly as possible.

BTW I am fully agreed with your three points fbouthil. :thumbsup:

Anyone who settled just N of the our Carthage (NE of start) got an excellent capitol location with 2 cows and a Spice in the 21 square area. They would also have 4 bg and 3 forests. Lots of river for extra commerce. The only disadvantage is that it is not coastal. Any team with this start will be ahead of our score for quite some time. If they went for CB instead of writing at the start then they would also have an edge due to an earlier temple for happiness.

I also fully agree with fbouthil's 3 points. Utica doesn't need the irrigated cow until it is size 12 (even then they could use a coast tile). I think Carthage should continue to pump out workers until either we need the 5th city site or until we've pumped the other 3 sites up to size 12 and have enough workers that we could pump the new 5th city up to size 12 as well (or whatever works with a 9 tile initial range).

I don't really have anything to add. fbouthil made some good points. Catapults would help archers to kill legions.

First step is to turn down the research rate as having Literature in 12 is not to our advantage right now. We are ~35 turns from the 400 shields needed for the Library and need a temple in Utica before we start the pre-build anyway. Then swap fields between LMOK1 and Carthage. It slows the archer but speeds the NuMerc. Then move some garrison troops south into the valley to blockade the Romans.

1725BC
Meet a Roman warrior in the Vale of Lambs and buy the wheel from him 125g and 3gpt in the efffort to maintain friendly relations and reduce the potential for demands.

No horses on the island.

Despite having most of our treasury plus a lot of our income Caesar calls back and extorts another 17g. I'm tempted to refuse the demand but wisdom prevails.

1675BC
Build the Colussus in Utica and start a temple.

1650BC
Fiddling with citizens and dancing with roamin' Romans in the vale.

1625BC
More o' the same.

1600BC
Just to be different more o' the same.

The Romans start the Pyramids.

1575BC
Roamin' Roman settler team discouraged and turns back to Antium.

1550BC
Roman settler pair heads back to west coast.Troops in the gap advance to cut them off.

1525BC
Settler will head down the vale next turn.

Romans drop their settler on the bonus grasslands.

Utica builds its temple and starts a Palace as a GLib pre-build. Palace due in 24. The Palace is only worth 312 of the 400 needed, though (24 turns @13spt). I am relunctant to use the Pyramids as we don't know who else are building it.

1500BC
Settler starts trek to the vale. can pick up NuMerc escort at LMOK1 on the way. Workers are on the way to road the forest at Utica and Carthage is building another one due in 5 with growth in 4. Lux is at ten and all are content. Science is at 30 with literature due in 19. The garrison warrior at Carthage is peering to the north from the mountain as he is not needed for MP duty at the moment. The Romans have HBR so I would expect barb horsemen from the North any time now.

The Southern Front
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/TeamBedeSGOTM4_1500BC.jpg

I am not overly concerned about score right now as we appear to be in the middle of the pack with a nicely rising curve, not a bad postion to be in. I am also satisfied with out progress. The Colussus is a handy early culture builder and the extra income at Utica is a big help right now.




Roster check

Zakharov up
fbouthil - on deck
TimBentley
MOTH (skip from Sept 24 through Sept 26)
Bede

And a gentle reminder: 24hrs to post got it, 24 hrs to post log and save.

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_BC1500_01.SAV)

Ok, I got it.

I will have a look at the save now but I won't play until tomorrow.

Am I building the next city on the grassland site I suggested in post 69?

No horses? I guess that means that longbows will be useful if we cannot get to the iron before invention.

That site is a bit close to Pompeii, and would lose two grassland squares. Pompeii would have about a 0.17% chance of flipping (assuming we have 1.5 the culture of Rome) after the city expanded. Our city, on the other hand, would have about a 0.01% chance of flipping. Moving NW would add a bunch of water, which we don't really need. Moving NE would inhibit growth.

I would push on down the valley and culturally challenge the Romans. With a big enough garrison and 100% natives the chances of flipping are nil. And we'll need a jumping off place for the Roman ExFor anyway.

We will be exposed to more Roman demands for tribute but those are inevitable in any case as they will be expanding in our direction (no place else to go).

Looking at the save, I have the following thoughts:

Maybe we should switch production in Carthage to settler since it grows faster than Zak#1. On the other hand, if the settler is built in Zak#1, it would be built faster. I am not sure what is best, but I think I prefer having the next city faster, even if it means Zak#1 will become less productive for some time.
There are 2 more worked tiles than Utica can labor due to its size. We could either join a worker to Utica or use the workers to build a road to the spice city site so it can be settled faster like we did for the city down the valley. On the other hand, if we join every worker Carthage builds, then Carthage can grow pretty fast.


If we join a worker right now & every worker Carthage builds, Utica would grow as follows:

in 1t -> size 8 (join a worker right now) :)
in 6t -> size 9 (join the worker Carthage just built) :cool:
in 11t -> size 10 (another worker from Carthage) :D
in 13t -> size 11 (natural growth) :smug:
in 16t -> size 12 (another worker from Carthage) :nya:

Of course, it will mean increasing lux a lot. Maybe we will even have to build a spice colony to help decrease the lux tax. We do need to research lit before the palace prebuild is finished and if the lux tax is too high, we may become short of cash before lit is researched or have to slow down Utica growth. :(

I agree with Bede for the settling of the city down the valley and culture.

I don't think cash is a problem as adding population to Utica is worth 2g per head with the Colussus, so increasing luxury spending as needed should not cause a reduction in the science allotment. Keeping the population at Carthage down will help there as will the income from the new city to the south.

On the other hand I am not so sure using Zak1 to produce a settler is the best choice. That is the only town capable of producing troops in a reasonable time and stunting the growth there will slow the troop training effort. And defenders are going to be needed sooner rather than later methinks.

Of course, it will mean increasing lux a lot. Maybe we will even have to build a spice colony to help decrease the lux tax. We do need to research lit before the palace prebuild is finished and if the lux tax is too high, we may become short of cash before lit is researched or have to slow down Utica growth. :(
I don't think the spice colony will be necessary. Lux will need to be at 30% when Utica is size 12 and one additional luxury won't help (2 luxuries and 20% lux would be sufficient, if my calculations are correct). At the present moment, 30% lux and 30% science (the current science rate, which certainly won't need to be significantly raised, at least) would generate net 0gpt. That includes a gpt deal to Rome that will run out during Zakharov's turns. On the other hand, a luxury would help keep the luxury slider lower at size 8 or 11.

Indeed war in short time would not be surprising, especially considering the proposed location of our new city.

1500(0)
End turn.

IBT - Barb warrior appears N of Utica's cow.

1475(1)
LMOZ1 builds NuMerc > NuMerc in 5 (to send N)
NuMerc/Settler head from LMOZ1 towards valley.
Worker joins Utica. Now Palace is in 21, Lit in 16.
Warrior moves from mountain towards Utica for MP, it will free an archer for hunting.
Luxuries to 20% to keep the extra citizen happy.

1450(2)
Archer moves from Utica to attack barb warrior. Wins but loses 1 hp.
Worker + slave will road/mine hills then move to road forest NE of Utica.

1425(3)
Worker in the mountain roads sheep in 2. Sorry guys, this was a miscalculation. In hindsight, I should have sent him straight to mine BG next to the new city site.
Carthage grows in 1, worker in 2. So I free up a 2 shield tile in Utica to allow the worker in Carthage to be built as it grows, one turn early.

1400(4)
Worker built in Carthage > worker in 5.
Theveste settled in valley grassland site. Set to build temple in 60, as it needs the culture.
LMOZ1 grows to size 4. I had already moved one of the warriors on the Roman border towards it. It now arrives for MP duty.
New worker moves to Utica.
Theveste requires 3 units as a garrison to prevent a culture flip (thanks to CrpMapStat :thumbsup: ). I move a warrior and a NuMerc in.

IBT - A Roman warrior moves into the mountain range on the east coast.

1375(5)
Worker joined to Utica. Size 9, Palace in 16.
Archer kills a new barb warrior to the N.

IBT - A barb horseman appears to the N.

1350(6)
LMOZ1 builds NuMerc > warrior in 2 (to help with MP in Utica, freeing an archer).
NuMerc is sent N to deal with barbs.

1325(7)
Not much happens. The barb horse stays where it is.
The Roman warrior looks to be on an exploration mission, not an attack run.

1300(8)
LMOZ1 builds warrior > worker in 2 (to build spice city road). I can afford this worker as NuMercs are built in 5 at both size 3 and size 4.
NuMerc attacks barb horse and wins (3/4 hp).

IBT - Another barb horse appears. A new Roman warrior moves next to Theveste worker.

1275(9)
Carthage builds a worker > worker in 5.
Theveste worker completes mine. Road in 2. I check MapStat and Theveste now only needs 2 units to prevent a flip, so I send a NuMerc to defend the worker from the Roman warrior.
Warrior moves into Utica, allowing the archer to move out.

IBT - Two barb horses attack our NuMerc and die (fools!). Our NuMerc is promoted to ELITE (4/5 hp). [dance]

1250(10)
LMOZ1 builds worker > NuMerc in 5.
Worker moves N to build the spice road.
Worker joined to Utica. Size 10, 18 shields/turn (2 of them lost to waste), growth in 4, Palace in 10, 25 commerce/turn (2 lost to corruption).

Notes:
The luxury slider is at 20%. Utica (with 2 MP warriors) has 5 happy and 5 sad citizens.
Science is at 30% with Lit in 7. We can turn this down to 20% to get Lit in 9, or up to 70% to get Lit in 3. We should probably leave it until Utica grows to size 11 before making a decision.

The elite NuMerc is heading S to the Roman border.
The veteran NuMerc next to the sheep is going N to hunt barbs.
The archer W of Carthage is defending the spice road worker.
The archer to the N is barb hunting.
The archer S of LMOZ1 is following the Roman warrior. If he moves to the W of LMOZ1, block him off. The Romans have no knowledge of our territory or the land to the N. We want to keep it that way or they will send settlers up there.

Theveste road on BG is complete next turn.
Utica road in forest is complete next turn.

Utica grows in four turns. Without a harbour, it will stop growing at size 11. It could work Carthage's cow, but I say keep it at 11. That way we can grow LMOZ1 to 12 and jump the palace there when the time comes. The other way would be to grow both to 12, then build a worker in Utica just before we disband Carthage, but this will be difficult if Utica is building a wonder.

Carthage is building a worker. No more can be added to Utica, so should we change this to a settler?

LMOZ1 is building a NuMerc. Should it get a temple to close the border with Theveste?

Rome has 515g and Horseback riding. I didn't trade as we don't need HR, but maybe we should offer a gpt deal to prevent a war with Rome.

Score
Firaxis: 139 - Jason: 184

We are behind other teams, but our graph is curving upwards (due to Colossus I guess).

1250BC SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_BC1250_01.SAV)

Roster
fbouthil - Up next
TimBentley - on deck
MOTH (skipping until 26th)
Bede
Zakharov - just played

Here is a picture of our empire in 1250BC:

@Zakharov: nice work! :goodjob:

I agree with switching worker to settler in Carthage. I am not sure about switching Zak#1 to temple yet as we lack units to block both scouting warriors. I usually use 3 units to block an enemy unit; does anyone know how a way to do it with only 2 units?

I would like to send the barb hunting archer S for blocking duties, but it may be risky as the barb camp was not dispersed, I think (but too far to show on mil adv).

I think anything that can delay the war with Rome is a good idea for now, so I like the trade of HR (Why in hell did Rome research that!) for gpt. It could be done on my preturn as our active deal with Rome ends this turn.

I can play this afternoon.

Any suggestions for the next research? Myst for Oracle?

Utica grows in four turns. Without a harbour, it will stop growing at size 11. It could work Carthage's cow, but I say keep it at 11. That way we can grow LMOZ1 to 12 and jump the palace there when the time comes. The other way would be to grow both to 12, then build a worker in Utica just before we disband Carthage, but this will be difficult if Utica is building a wonder.
If we move enough units into LMOZ1, the palace will jump there. The number includes 3 points per native citizen, 1 point per foreign citizen, 1 point per neighboring town (meaning within 8 walking tiles, a 17x17 square), 2 points per neighboring city, 3 points per neighboring metropolis, and 1 point per military unit. In fact, if both LMOZ1 and Carthage were the same size and had the same number of military units stationed, the palace would jump to LMOZ1. I would be more careful than that, just to be safe, however.

Anyways, to the task at hand. It looks like Rome should research map making next, followed by mysticism. So we could research code of laws on the way to republic, or we could research mysticism before Rome does.

Upon further investigation, Utica at size 12 would produce one additional shield. This is not significant enough to harm Carthage's growth.

I think switching Carthage to a settler would be fine, although it looks like 29 shields will be in the box when Carthage grows to size 3 in 9 turns, so it will need to borrow a BG from LMOZ1 for a turn.

Assuming Utica was to stay at size 11, it should take 15 turns to build the Great Library, so even lowering the science to 10% could work, so I'll support a science of 20%.

Assuming Utica was to stay at size 11, it should take 15 turns to build the Great Library, so even lowering the science to 10% could work, so I'll support a science of 20%.
At the moment, science at 10% would give us Lit in 15 turns. The Palace will be done in 10. We need to research Lit before the Palace is finished as we cannot rely on the Pyramids as a placeholder. If we get a situation where for example, the Palace is done in 3, 20% gives Lit in 1 and 10% gives it in 2, then ok drop the science rate. Just make sure Literature is researched before the Palace is completed.

On the subject of future research, I say we need the Republic asap. We must therefore get Code of Laws and Philosophy next.

I usually use 3 units to block an enemy unit; does anyone know how a way to do it with only 2 units?

The only way to do it with 2 units is to use the coast as an extra barrier. For inland blocking, you will need 3 units.

...as the barb camp was not dispersed...
I couldn't find the barb camp. I suspect it is in the tundra region. :hmm:

Anyways, to the task at hand. It looks like Rome should research map making next, followed by mysticism. So we could research code of laws on the way to republic, or we could research mysticism before Rome does.
How can you know what Rome is researching?!? Let's see if we can wait to research myst for ourselves or not:

in 15t (according to TimBentley, I trust his calculations), Utica will finish TGLib. Unless we use some pop-rushing, 4t to build a library. The we have about 14t we can use the palace as prebuild for the next wonder. That means we need to have another wonder accessible (i.e. myst) within 33t (a bit less if we pop-rush).

Let's see if we can research CoL and then Myst ourselves if Rome does not research it for us.

Tech___Research at 30%____40%_____50%
Lit________________7_______5________4
CoL______________27______21_______15
Myst_____________11_______9________6
Total_____________45______35_______25

Philo______________16______13_______9
Total (+philo -CoL)__34______27_______19

Since I do not think courthouse are important at this point, I will research philo next so we can stay at 30% and keep the opportunity to research myst afterward if Rome does not help us.

Playing now as I won't have time tonight.

How can you know what Rome is researching?!?
Well, it's a guess based off a spreadsheet found in the thread about what the AI will research next. I'm not sure how accurate it is, but map making is an AI priority regardless (I was surprised to see that Rome researched horseback riding).

We obviously could get philosophy before Rome, so that would be good for trading purposes. The only city that needs a courthouse is Theveste (reducing corruption from 36% (39% after spice city is founded) to 25%).

Don't forget we need a library in Utica before any other wonders. (3cpt doubled to 6cpt in 1000 yrs) so that will have to be added to whatever calculations are made regarding research. The Oracle itself is only 4cpt and costs 2.5x a library. The other important AA culture wonder is the HG at 4cpt and 300 shields. But neither one is critical and we may want to preserve the shields for a higher cost, higher value MA building like Sistine's or Bach's or even a cathedral (3cpt and only 160 shields).

1250BC (preturn) - Trade HR for 5gpt + 101g

IBT - The people :love: me and expand the palace. Warriors move back.

1225BC (1) - :sleep:

1200BC (2) - Blocking one warrior, slowing down the other (not enough units for block).

1175BC (3) - Same thing.

IBT - Utica grows and MapStat says I will need more lux. Rome learns MM.

1150BC (4) - Lux to 30%

IBT - Zak#1: NuMerc->Temple. Ceasar establishes an embassy.

1125BC (5) - Research dropped to 20%, lit still in 1t. Complete mountain block line of archers & warriors. :nya:

IBT

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Bede_SG004_BC1125_01.JPG

I should have left a hole in that wall and toy with them a little more.
Roman warrior attacks fortified archer in mountain, kills it without a scratch and promote to veteran. :(
Research lit -> philo in 13t at 30%, lux down to 20% as war happiness is enough to keep Utica happy.

1100BC (6)
Switch Utica to TGLib due in 9t.
Archer killed attacking roman warrior on hills, NuMerc kills it. GA! TGLib now in 7t.
Leave the roman warrior on a mountain; wait until it is on a more favorable ground to attack it.
Hum. Carthage settler is now due in 2t and will grow only in 3. Oh well, we will loose 1t of production, that's all.
NuMerc N, sees 2 barb horses.

IBT - barb horse move out of sight. roman warrior closes on Zak#1, but still on M. Roman archer appears 2 tiles of Theveste.

1075BC (7)
Move 4 units in Zak#1 for defense (what else do you want me to do with them anyway?)
NuMerc N moves to see the 2 barb horses.

IBT - Roman warrior fortifies. Roman archer goes around Theveste.

1050BC (8) - NuMerc N moves next to the 2 barb horses.

IBT
An archer & a warrior appear near Theveste. One barb horse attacks and fail.
Cathage: settler -> archer

1025BC (9)
Move Elite NuMerc back toward Theveste (healed). I think it will be more needed there.
NuMerc N goes next to barb horse & sees barb camp.
workers finish the road for the spice city and I realize I did not need to make a road on the settling spot as the settler is 3 tiles from it.

IBT
Roman archer redlines NuMerc
The people :love: me and expand the palace. I am definitely the favorite ruler of the people. I do not know why as I seem to have screw up the game a little bit.

1000BC (10)
Archer takes roman warrior near Zak#1. Hum. Sounds like chess.
NuMerc disperse barb camp.
NuMerc kills roman warrior on H. Now at 3/5, but next to a roman archer. I think that was a mistake. I hope It will survive the IBT.


Careful, there is a barb horse 2 NE of the NuMerc in the N.
The Settler is at the spot someone suggested for the spice city (MOTH IIRC).
I am guessing only Rome has access to iron; the other cities not being connected to Rome yet. That explains why we only see warriors & archers.
Utica is producing 23spt and will complete TGLib in 3t. To build a lib in 3t without pop-rushing, you will need to disband for 11sh or join a worker to labor the 2nd cow and disband one archer. Since Rome is busy building the pyramids, we may very well not see any swords in this war.
Plan the next wonder carefully. When philo is researched, if you think you won't be able to trade for myst before the palace prebuild is finished, then we should research it ourselves (I hope it does not come to that).

Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_BC1000_01.SAV)
Score: 160
Jason: 212

I hope I did not screw the game too much. I thought I was being clever making a wall of archers & warriors, but it caused a war (unless it is the embassy showing no garrison in Carthage?).

Rooster

TimBentley - up
MOTH (skipping until 26th) - on deck?
Bede
Zakharov - played this morning
fbouthil - just played

Maybe we should put MOTH to his original place just before me, if TimBentley plays soon.

I hope I did not screw the game too much. I thought I was being clever making a wall of archers & warriors, but it caused a war (unless it is the embassy showing no garrison in Carthage?)
We were going to be at war sooner or later. The only way to prevent it was to allow the Roman exploring warriors to head N. As I stated in a previous post, we were being sucked into a despotic golden age with the combination of:
- sharing a small island with an aggressive civ
- our UU being the only defensive unit available between Bronze working and Gunpowder
- not having iron or horses to take the offensive with swords/horsemen
- scientific research slowed by having only 1 civ to trade with
- The Republic being a long time away

I think we won't be the only team who has a despotic GA. In fact, if any of them avoid it then I will be very impressed. At least we no longer have to be scared about using our NuMercs now. Get them onto the battlefield. :ar15:

Our main objective in this war is to destroy Pompeii. The Romans will not resettle it as it is too close to Theveste. If we can either take Rome or raze it and settle near the iron, that would be a huge bonus. Maybe we could send a few units in for the sole purpose of pillaging tile improvements. If we can cut that iron supply it would really help us.

If we can do enough damage to the Romans, we can hopefully demand MM in a peace treaty. :)

-----------------------------

edit: I just looked at the save. We can run science at 70% and get Philosophy in 3 turns, while still getting a gold surplus. On this small island, research is more important than gold, so we should make maximum use of our golden age to gain techs as quick as possible. :beer:

Our main objective in this war is to destroy Pompeii. The Romans will not resettle it as it is too close to Theveste. If we can either take Rome or raze it and settle near the iron, that would be a huge bonus. Maybe we could send a few units in for the sole purpose of pillaging tile improvements. If we can cut that iron supply it would really help us.
With what military units to you suggest we do that?!? :confused:

We have just a little bit more troops than we need for defense. Theveste has 2 NuMerc & 1 warrior. Zak#1 has 1 NuMerc, 1 archer & 1 warrior. Rome seems to have Carthage as target, probably because it does not have any garrison, so it will send troop close to Zak#1, so we cannot spare more than the warrior there. We also have a NuMerc half way to Theveste, but it is wounded and next to a roman archer so it might not survive the next IBT (a mistake on my part :blush: ).

Both cities will complete a temple soon, but only Zak#1 has a barrack. Another mistake on my part was that I forgot :blush: to change Zak#1 production to military units when Rome declared war. When I realized that I should have done that, it already had more than 30sh accumulated so I decide to complete the temple. It should help our score, but it means we have less units to defend ourselves, which is the priority here.

I am farely certain we have enough units to defend ourselves since swords are not coming yet, but I really do not see how we can take the offense (no offense intended Zakharov :crazyeye: ). Of course, in despotism, we are in no hurry to make peace, so we may be able to build enough units to attack before the end of the war. :)

On the bright side, we saved 75g on HR (5gpt for the 15t left in the deal) when Rome declared war. :beer: Again, I should have used more gpt in the deal.

Of course, we have keep the focus on Utica. It should finish TGLib in 3t, a lib in 3-4t later and start a wonder prebuild afterward. If we increase research to 70% as Zakharov suggested (we could even support 80% with a low -2gpt and 254g in treasury), philo, CoL & Myst could all be researched in 15t. The palace prebuild is good for 13t only so I do not think we can research republic before myst.

I usually like having fast research when I can afford it and cannot buy any tech with it, but since almost everyone talked about keeping research low before I played, I did not want to increase it.

I got it and will play tomorrow. I might comment soon, or I might be too tired (marching around carrying something heavy can do that to me).

I guess I'm not too tired. It looks like I won't be able to take much aggressive action. I agree with taking advantage of the golden age with high research. It would be nice to get a better wonder than the Oracle (although it would allow the lux to remain at 20% once the spices are connected and war happiness expires), but I don't think we can research a better one in time. I'm not worried about the NuMerc; being on a hill, it has a better than 2/3 chance of surviving if attacked.

I would keep the research effort focused on only two things: getting to the Middle Ages and Republic. The remaining AA culture buildings are too costly for the culture per turn. We can get a cathedral in Utica for 160 shields and that is a better deal than the Oracle at 300 as it will be built faster, therefore reach doubling age sooner. And there is another continent out there somewhere

I see no need to run research faster than we can accumulate the shields for whatever our target building may be as right now we have no trading opportunities and won't until we get some boats in the water or somebody else's galley shows up off our coast.

By all means, however, pour money into Republic and whatever we need to know to make the transition to the Middle Ages. Once we get to those two things we can re-evaluate.

First things first, though, we need to put a leash on the Romans.

I would keep the research effort focused on only two things: getting to the Middle Ages and Republic. The remaining AA culture buildings are too costly for the culture per turn. We can get a cathedral in Utica for 160 shields and that is a better deal than the Oracle at 300 as it will be built faster, therefore reach doubling age sooner. And there is another continent out there somewhere.
I fully agree here. We already have the Colossus and soon we will have the GLib. We can't expect to get all of the AA wonders. In my test game I managed to get the Hanging Gardens, maybe we should go for this instead of the Oracle. Monarchy will be a long time away, so we can afford to wait.

The Republic should be a priority for us, as we need the extra commerce as well as the lower level of corruption. We must research Philosophy, Code of Laws then the Republic.

Research should be ramped up from now on for three reasons:
1) There is another continent somewhere, probably with many civs likely trading techs with each other. If this is the case then by the time we discover them, we will be far behind in the tech race.
2) We are at war with Rome, so we are not trading techs with them to speed up our research.
3) We have no horses and no iron. What are we going to spend our gold on? We can't do mass upgrades, so we may as well plough it into research.

The GLib will not give us any techs until we meet some more civs, so we cannot afford minimal research. The tactic of slowing down the tech pace is only necessary when we know many civs.

Of course we may get a leader IBT ;) If that happens, we can afford to rethink.

edit: I have just had another look at the save. Our science advisor tells us that we are indeed a backward civ. :(

We can get a cathedral in Utica for 160 shields and that is a better deal than the Oracle at 300 as it will be built faster, therefore reach doubling age sooner.
I would have to disagree. It is going to take a lot of time before we get Mono so the Oracle would be built much earlier. In my test game with a similar Carthagian city, I built (without GL) colossus, TGLib, Oracle, HG & TGWall and I was using the capital so not much of a prebuild. I agree that we should build a cathedral as soon as we have mono, but I think we should build anything that can give us culture in Utica before that. With the production we have in Utica, Oracle can be built in only 14t! IMHO, we have a good chance of getting it.

On the other had, I agree with increasing research to get republic faster. I would research myst first (if we cannot get it from Rome), just to prevent Utica from building anything else than culture.

I would not count on having a GL as we are not militaristic but it is still worth a shot to do anything to get one.

BTW, in my test game, I did something that may be considered a exploit for the 5CC. I am not sure it is permitted, but I will say it just in case. I was at war with Egypt, when Cleo asked for peace IBT and I got 2 cities for it. In the same IBT, I finished a research and from there got to the 2 new cities and rushed units! On the next turn, I abandoned the cities to have only 5 cities at the end of a turn, but got some production out of the 2 new cities. It is not very useful since they have 0 sh and rushing costs double, but it could be used to get a worker.

What would you suggest building in Utica if not the Oracle? I can't see getting to the middle ages or monarchy in 20 turns unless we manage to meet the other continent. Maybe we could build a colosseum, but I don't like going for construction just for that purpose. Regardless, I'll probably research philosophy and code of laws and reevaluate there.

What would you suggest building in Utica if not the Oracle?
If we can end this war with Rome soon, we could try to get Map Making from them, making the Lighthouse available. It is not the best wonder for culture but it will be useful to help us meet the other civs. Maybe the Romans will have Mysticism to trade as well?

I still say we should shoot for Republic and hope Rome researches the wonder techs.

----------------------------

edit: I see TimBentley has posted his save. I await the turn log. :)

Looking at the save, we can get peace with Rome now for one of the following deals:
1) Map Making + Mysticism for Lit + Phil + 251g
2) MM for Lit + Phil + 110g
3) Myst + 3g for Lit

I also noticed that we have a strike team building up in Theveste. :evil:

Our palace prebuild finishes in 11 turns, with Republic in 15. These numbers will increase when our GA ends in a few turns from now. We therefore have time before we need to obtain Myst or MM.

I say attack Pompeii. If we can't take it then at least we can drop Rome's demands in a peace treaty. :hammer:

Notes:
The sheep plains tile in Theveste needs to be irrigated after our golden age ends. It will only produce 2 shields in Despotism mine or no mine, but it can produce extra food if irrigated.

CrpMapStat says Theveste now only requires a garrison of 1 to prevent a flip.

A reminder that the next 50 turns run at 20 years/turn. The 10 turn stop dates are therefore 550BC, 350BC, 150BC, 50AD and 250AD.

The internet wasn't cooperating with me, so I was unable to post my turnlog earlier.

1000(0)-set research to 70%

IBT-archers move to Theveste

975(1)-found Hippo, see barb camp, start on temple
move NuMerc up to help

IBT-Roman archers retreat
LMOZ1 temple->NuMerc

950(2)-zzz

IBT-barbs heading to Carthage?
learn philosophy, start on code of laws
Utica Great Library->library

925(3)-zzz

IBT-I'm not sure what the barbs are doing
Carthage archer->barracks

900(4)-Rome is willing to talk, they know mysticism, map making
they want us to give something
archer kills barb horse on mountain

IBT-Theveste temple->barracks

875(5)-NuMerc kills barb warrior

IBT-LMOZ1 NuMerc->archer

850(6)-worker sees a barb warrior

IBT-Utica library->palace (14 turn prebuild)

825(7)-NuMerc disperses Kaya encampment
NuMerc kills Puyo barb warrior

IBT-LMOZ1 archer->archer

800(8)-zzz

775(9)-Rome just learned code of laws
NuMerc disperses Puyo encampment
military advisor mentions no barbs

IBT-Rome wants philosophy for peace, no way
learn code of laws, research set to republic for now
Carthage barracks->archer
LMOZ1 archer->NuMerc
Viking city of Nidaros finishes Pyramids

750(10)-zzz

Notes: Rome won't accept peace for a decent price (decent meaning he pays us)
He still hasn't connected his iron
Attack on Pompeii could start if desired
Republic could be researched in 13 turns at 80% science (-6gpt), mysticism could be researched in 4 turns at 40% science (+17gpt), map making and mathematics also could be researched
palace prebuild in Utica has 11 turns left

Here is the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_BC0750_01.SAV).

MOTH - should be back to play next
Bede - prepared to play if MOTH can't
Zakharov
fbouthil
TimBentley - just played

Here is a picture of the Roman front:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bede750.JPG

The sheep plains tile in Theveste needs to be irrigated after our golden age ends. It will only produce 2 shields in Despotism mine or no mine, but it can produce extra food if irrigated.
That is true, although a grassland would have to be irrigated first.

got it. Will try to play now.

IE ate this last time, so again...

750bc(0) set research to 80% - republic in 13 at -6GPT. Will see about getting Myst from Romans once GA runs out and Palace is closer.

ibt - the Roman's are building the Oracle in Rome. I guess they aren't really concentrating on this war. Roman Galley approaching our border in the east.

730bc(1) I send a Merc and Archer near Pompeii to see if this will loosen Ceaser's purse strings. No significant change.

ibt - Roman Galley near Utica. Roman 3/3 archer attacks 4/4 in Mountains - we win and are 1/4.

710bc(2) Theveste Rax>Merc. I adjust Utica to have the Cow and Carthage to have grass. I will do this for 2 turns incase the Romans land troops on Utica's food as we have no surplus. Merc in the N finds barb horsie.

ibt - galley unloads an Archer between Carthage and Utica. Horsie attacks and looses against Merc. Barb galley near Utica.

690bc(3) Carthage Archer>Archer, LMOZ1 Merc>Merc. 4/4 Archer v Archer wins without a scratch.

ibt - Celts build Oracle. There are 5 Roman archers moving through the mountains.

670bc(4) Cow given back to Carthage.

650bc(5) zzz

630bc(6) Rome Archer>Archer, LMOZ1 Merc>Merc. Merc in N finds barb camp.

ibt - there are 7 Roman Archers in the mountains now. our Golden Age is over.

610bc(7) Rome switches to Worker. My roaming Archer/Merc are now on the Roman Iron. I attack 1 of 2 archers in a hill and win but is red lined. Merc kills barb camp. Rome still wants to much for peace (and I scared 2 workers into Rome).

590bc(8) Rome worker>worker, Theveste Merc>Archer

ibt - 4 Roman Archers cross the river to our territory. I have some Archers waiting.

570bc(9) Hippo temple>rax, 3/3 arch vs 3/3 arch wins and is 2/3. 4/4 arch vs 3/3 wins and is 2/4. 4/4 arch vs 3/3 arch wins and is 3/4. 4/4 Merc vs 3/3 arch wins and is 3/4. Rome will now give us peace straight up. Pillage Rome Wheat with Archer/Merc.

ibt - 3/3 Roman Archer attacks 3/4 Merc across the river and wins and is 1/3 :(

550bc(10) Carthage Worker>Archer LMOZ1 Merc>Merc 4/4 Merc vs 1/3 archer wins and is 4/4.

Firaxis 217, Jason 277

Situation:
Palace in 2.
LMOZ1 is nearly at size 7 in 4. There are workers nearby to pump it some right away (with enough food for size 10).
at 80% science Republic in 5 at -12 GPT.
at 40% science Rebublic in 9 at +7 GPT -> where Rome will trade Peace and MM for Lit, 7GPT, 7G. I've saved at this setting.
The Archer/Merc are currently on the Roman Iron and have watched a few archers pass by.

Rotation:
Bede - up
Zakharov - on deck
fbouthil
TimBentley
MOTH - just played

The save can be foundhere (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_BC0550_01.SAV)

Sorry, no pictures. Its time for bed.

Got it.

Dispatches later.

@MOTH: Great job against Rome! :goodjob: Our military strength against Rome is now about the same (according to MilAdv). I must admit I was afraid when I read about 6 roman archers crossing the mountains.

We have been beaten to the Oracle. The only option for a wonder is TGLight by trading MM from Rome. I really do not like making peace with Rome when we are starting to gain on them. :cry: I do not see any other options as the palace prebuild finishes in 2t. Any better idea, anyone?

If we are getting TGLight in 2t and making peace, then I guess it is time to build some galley to profit from the fact that they can end in sea tiles and find other civs. In normal game, it is usually enough to get to another continent without risks, but it is no garranty in GOTM. I would like to start building a few libs, but I am not sure we can afford it yet.

BTW, with 5 cities, we should get 2t anarchy to get to republic.

One last thing, the only thing useful toward the 20K goal that Utica can build is a courthouse as there are no other wonders accessible after TGLight, until we get const or Mon. I am not sure when we should start another palace prebuild.

630bc(6) Rome Archer>Archer, LMOZ1 Merc>Merc. Merc in N finds barb camp....

....610bc(7) Rome switches to Worker....

....590bc(8) Rome worker>worker.
When I first read this I thought you had captured Rome and the iron. After checking the save I assume you meant to type Carthage and not Rome. ;)

710bc(2) Theveste Rax>Merc.
Rax? :confused:

It's a shame the Oracle has gone. I think this proves the unmet civs are advanced compared to us. I think we will have to make peace with Rome and get Map Making and the Lighthouse. We cannot afford to waste that Palace prebuild.

edit: The research rate should be increased to 70% for Republic in 5. Although we won't be able to switch until after the Lighthouse is built, we can get a 4 turn head start on getting mathematics. We need to catch up in the tech race.

When I first read this I thought you had captured Rome and the iron. After checking the save I assume you meant to type Carthage and not Rome. ;)

Sorry about that. It was a bit late and for some reason I kept doing that. I caught myself a few times too.

Rax? :confused:

Rax = Barracks I think I've seen this used as a shorthand.

The fact that Oracle is gone was a little disappointing for me too. I was hoping that Rome would waste several turns producing before they lost it to us.

I think we are going to have to go the peace route with Rome for MM. GLH is the only thing we can get really. At least we can then have a chance of crossing the seas and catching up in the tech race. It will also keep the AI from meeting Rome for a long time, so we can always do a peace deal with Rome and then break it again soon. We just need to make sure that Rome never gets to meet the rest of the world :devil2: We keep them for a leader farm for now and kill them when someone else gets one of the navigation techs.

0-550
Not much to do except check the state of the world. RomanExFor is a little light to do anything much about Rome and Roamin' Red troops are starting to pile up around LMOK1.

1-530
WIth the palace due in 1 it is time to make peace with the Romans. I really don't like giving him all that money for both techs, and since we don't need Mysticism for an immediate cultural building and can get it from the other continent when the galley gets there.....make peace with the Romans. He gets Vergil (Literature) and 100g, we get Mapmaking and a really big lightbulb in Utica. Science goes to seventy percent and lux to 30. Republic in 4 at -12. Coastal cities start galleys.

Romans boot us out of their territory and send their archers across ours.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BedeSGOTM4Ligthouse.jpg

And Utica finishes the lighthouse and starts...the palace

2-510
Hunting barbarians in the north and blockading Roman archers at Carthage.

A strange galley shows upon our shore carrying knowledge of Mysticism and the borders of Hippo expand and we get spices.

3-490
The strange galley belongs to India who have money but no third level knowledge other than Map Making so we sell them the BaghavadGita (Literature) for 127g.

4-470
Not much other than tending to business and herding Romans. Dispersed a barb camp.

Learn Republic but will wait for galleys to finish before the revolution

5-450
First galley hits the water and sails due west from Theveste and discovers a border within sight, not India.

As we are about to revolt and Rome doesn't know Republic and it would be nice if we are in anarchy at the same time (Rome won't be building any legions, though since Julius has not connected his iron mines yet, that is not a problem) sell him Republicanism for 625g.

6-430
Rome takes the bait and falls into anarchy but he has three troops heading toward Theveste plus a few odd ones in the mountains south of LMOK1. I could give them the boot, hope they declare and in the ensuing melee in the mountains finish off their offensive troops, then destroy Pompeii and march on Rome..

7-410
We meet Persia who knows little and has no money. India learns Mathematics which we buy for Philosophy on our way to Construction.

The Romans did not co-operate and moved out the territory so the descent into anarchy begins after opening embassies with Persia and India. Neither is very advanced in terms of poopulation or development. So the intelligent life forms have to be elsewhere.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BedeSGOTM4India.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BedeSGOTM4Persia.jpg

We draw two turns, however Utica will starve... or riot, and of the two I prefer starve as there are workers handy to build the population back up.

8-390
Mitigating the damge done by anarchy, though not much mitigation can be done.

9-370
Sailing the two sides of the other continent.

10-350
Sailing and watching the Romans who have finally hooked up their iron. There is a Roman setler pair heading towards the mountains south of LMOK1 and various Roman troops zigzagging around.

Hippo is building another galley for contact making to the east and Carthage is building a catapault in anticipation of the next Roman war.

Research path could switch to the Polytheism/Monarchy track for the Hanging Gardens in a tmely fashion. Or we could gamble on getting to Monarchy through Perisa/India/Rome/Celts and capture the HG that way.

Now that we have Republic our next objective is the Middle Ages. We will have Construction and a Colusseum in Utica in 6 turns so I would go straight from there to Currency, hoping we can pick up Polytheism on the way by and maybe Monarchy on the way by again.


Rotation:
Zakharov - up
fbouthil - on deck
TimBentley
MOTH
Bede

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_BC0350_01.SAV)

Looks good. Differential naval movement (doubling movement for ships and having a movement cost of 1, 2, and 3 for ocean, sea, and coast, respectively) is on, right?

We keep them for a leader farm for now and kill them when someone else gets one of the navigation techs.
It looks like India and Persia are able to reach us now, so no ruining our reputation and trying to cover it up.

Looks good. Differential naval movement (doubling movement for ships and having a movement cost of 1, 2, and 3 for ocean, sea, and coast, respectively) is on, right?

It looks like India and Persia are able to reach us now, so no ruining our reputation and trying to cover it up.

I missed that the differential movement was on and was hoping that the GLH would keep us isolated. It looks like we are in for 11 more turns of peace unless the Romans declare on us again.

Regarding War Weariness: Will we get reverse war weariness whenever we go to war with Rome since they declared on us first back at the last war? If so then that will help us if we have to keep going in and out of war.

On my old subject of the Forbidden Palace (since the forums want to combine my posts):
I ran a test game to see about getting the forbidden palace. We can sucessfully build it and keep with the 5CC count at the end of the various turns. In my test game I actually ended up with both the Palace and Forbidden Palace in my 20K city (I jumped the palace accidentally 3 turns before the FP was finished). If we want to do this we will need to build enough settlers to found the cities and we will discard them after. Its only 2 culture per turn, but maybe for after we thinned out Rome and don't need quite so large of a military.

Ok, I got it.

I will see if I can meet some more civs before committing to a tech path. The Hanging Gardens would be sweet. 4 culture plus a happiness boost. :D

I can play now but I don't know if I can get the turn log up before tomorrow morning. I'll try my best. :)

I do not know if it is too late for Zakharov to read this before he plays, but it is probably evident that in 6t, when we learn const, we should have almost 200sh in the palace prebuild and since we are now technologically advanced, it means we have a good chance of getting TGWall! :cool:

All right! I think this game is going very well! :goodjob:

I do not know if it is too late for Zakharov to read this before he plays, but it is probably evident that in 6t, when we learn const, we should have almost 200sh in the palace prebuild and since we are now technologically advanced, it means we have a good chance of getting TGWall! :cool:

All right! I think this game is going very well! :goodjob:
You must have read my mind. :D I have played, we have the Great Wall. Turnlog in about an hour (when I finish writing it). :)

350BC(0)- Checked a few things to familiarise myself.

IBT- Roman settler pair boards a galley, heading for the grassland area N of Utica.

330BC(1)- Worker joined to Utica. Not much else.

310BC(2)- Our galley discovers blue borders.

IBT- A barb horseman appears to the E of Hippo.

290BC(3)- The blue civ is Germany. We are equal except they do not have republic. They have only 69g.
Warrior disbanded to cut costs.

IBT- Persia declared war on the Indians! :spank:
Roman troops moving along their border.

270BC(4)- NuMerc kills barb horseman.
Production in Theveste and LMOZ1 switched to catapults because of Roman troop movement.

IBT- Construction complete. Currency in 5 at 80% (-53gpt).

250BC(5)- Switching Palace to Colosseum will waste 56 shields, so I switch to the Great Wall in 2.
Ivory colony founded in tundra using the Roman slave.
Two workers joined to LMOZ1.
Our galleys spot Orange borders and a Greek(green) galley. The Greeks have 27g and lack Construction and the Republic.

I check the science advisor. We are now technologically advanced! [party]

IBT- Barb galley attacks Roman settler galley, Roman galley wins but is damaged.

230BC(6)- The orange civ are the Ottomans. Greek borders are spotted.
Workers build a road S of Theveste. A same turn attack on Pompeii is now possible. :evil:
The Ottomans have currency and need 5 of our techs, so I trade with them. I get Currency + 52g for MM, Phil, CoL and Lit. They only have 3 cities, so they will soon be behind again. I made sure not to trade Construction as we have a monopoly on this tech.
Researching Polytheism in 4 at 70% (-42gpt).

IBT- The Roman settler galley is heading back as it is damaged. Dumb AI!!!
A Roman settler pair enters our territory so I tell it to withdraw.
Utica builds the 'Great Wall of Carthage'. :thumbsup: Colosseum in 6.

As this game is based on GOTM28, we have some C3C style rules. We now have walls in every city.

210BC(7)- NuMerc disperses a Jin encampment and is promoted to ELITE [dance]
Galley heading E discovers land. I think 3 galleys is enough, so I switch production in Hippo to a barracks in 2. This will help to support the war effort, plus it will be useful if Rome decides to settle N and E of Hippo.

IBT- Romans move away from the border, but the settler pair has ignored my warning and moved further into our territory.

190BC(8)- I move some troops, then tell the Roman settler pair to get out of my territory.
Rome declares war! :ar15:
I unleash our new catapults on the archer, pounding it down to 1hp. An elite NuMercs attacks. It kills the archer without a scratch (5/5) but produces no leader. The Roman settler is split into 2 and bound into slavery.

IBT- The Romans move some troops towards us up the right flank.

170BC(9)- I move some NuMercs into the mountains to head off the Roman push through the mountains. If they make it to the road, we can move catapults into position.

IBT- We discover Polytheism and enter the Middle Ages.

150BC(10)- Our galley spots a lilac border.

Score: Firaxis - 271, Jason - 359.

Notes:
There are 3 unmet civs - Babylon, Celts and the Vikings.

There are workers in LMOZ1 and in Utica. They should be joined next turn.

Leave the 2 shield tile in Carthage open, the catapult will then be completed next turn as it grows.

The warrior to the W and the NuMerc to the E were placed to push back the fog in order to prevent a barb uprising when we moved to the middle ages.

We have 2 warriors left. They should be disbanded as they are costing 4gpt in support. I would rather spend that on quality units like NuMercs.

The Romans still have no Legions.

The Roman push through the mountains has left Pompeii with no reinforcements. We have 4 catapults, 3 archers and 2 NuMercs within striking distance.

The elite NuMerc E of Hippo is heading S to the Roman border.

Utica will build a Colosseum in 3 turns exactly (60sh @ 20sh/turn).

We are currently paying 48gpt in army support costs.

Research:
I have left the save on Monotheism at 10% (40 turns), so we can have a team discussion on what to get next.
10% research gives +9gpt, 20% breaks even. Any higher and we are running a large deficit for 20+ turns.
We could get Monarchy (Hanging Gardens) in 10 turns at 50% at -30gpt.

We also have the option of shutting off research and letting the GLib do its job, though this will leave Utica with nothing to build. I think we should get Monarchy in 10, with Utica building a Palace prebuild (after the Colosseum), then go at 10% for a MA tech.

Roster:
fbouthil - up next
TimBentley - on deck
MOTH
Bede
Zakharov - just played

Here is the save:
150BC SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_BC0150_01.SAV)

Here is our empire in 150BC:

Good turn Zakarov. We are just going to need to clean the Romans off our continent as it seems they do not want peace.

A couple thoughts:
1. We should switch Hippo to a Aquaduct soon. It will be size 6 before we know it.
2. We should keep whatever slaves we get as they are free upkeep.
3. We should consider gifting Persia and Greeks and other scientific civs into middle ages to try and trade for their free techs (or if we get lucky and they both get the same tech we get it through GL).
4. I think we should go for Monarchy in 20 turns or something like that.

2. We should keep whatever slaves we get as they are free upkeep.
In most cases I agree with you, but when performing an action that consumes the worker (colony, outpost, airfield etc.) it is more effective to use a slave. We are industrial, so slaves are 3x slower than native workers, but a consuming task is the same for natives and slaves. Also, the native workers can later be joined to cities, which I don't like doing with slaves.

I am a bit surprised about the high cost of units, but I guess this is normal in a 5CC game.

My thoughts:

Utica: I can short-rush the colloseum, using a market, for 160g (-warrior disband) to finish it in 1t.
After that, it can prebuild a palace for 15t, so we can research Mon at 40% in 13t, with -19gpt (more or less with new units & warrior disband & joining workers). Of course, unless we get the help of TGLib, we will have nothing to build after HG... At that time, I guess we could wait until we have almost 160sh for a cathedral in a palace prebuild before we have to gift the sci civ into MA. Note that Germany & Ottomans will get to the MA by themselves soon.
We have 4 catapult, 3 archers & 2 NuMercs ready to attack Pompeii next turn. To do that, we have to move the catapults one tile S of Theveste. if the 3 archers & 1 spear roman stack moves W, then it could attack the catapult stack on favorable grounds. I think I should move the fortified NuMerc N on turn 0, in hope the romans will follow so I make the Pompeii attack. Should I wait until I got rid of those archers before I attack Pompeii?
I liked the NuMerc-archer pillage team of the previous war. Do you think I should try to go pillage Rome's iron with a similar team again? IMHO, there is a high chance that we will see legions before the end of this war, so it may be futile. On the other hand, it would help a lot if we could prevent confronting too much legions.
As MOTH suggested, Hippo will need an aqueduct within 21t to prevent losing some growth. It is going to take a little bit less than 14t to build it, so we can build units for at least 7t before starting a aqueduct.
We are about to meet Scandinavia to the E.
I think I can drop lux to 10% after the colosseum is finished. It would really help lowering our gpt losses.
Besides that, I will continue building NuMercs & catapults in hope one of the following players have enough strength to attack Rome. I really do not think I have enough units to attack Rome in my 10t.

Can I hold on to the game for 2 days this time? I really want to play this slowly because it looks like it could be a critical turn. I will probably finish it tonight, but I know I sometimes play very slowly, especially in SG, so I am asking just in case.

BTW, keep the suggestions coming! I need all the help I can get.

Take what time is needed as you have at least 12 hours in hand.

I am a bit surprised about the high cost of units, but I guess this is normal in a 5CC game.
This is only partly because we are playing a 5CC. The main reason for the high unit costs is because the rules have been modified to more closely represent C3Conquests. This game is based on GOTM28, when the GOTM staff were trying to make the transition from classic civ to [c3c]. Of course we now know they decided to make two separate GOTMs, with the classic one reverting back to the original rules.

So, the reason we have the high unit costs is because in [c3c], the Republic supports 1/3/4 free units then 2gpt for every unit after that. In [ptw] there is no free support and all units cost 1gpt.

We are supporting 33 units currently. We have two cities and three towns. That equals 9 free units, with 24 supported at 48gpt. With normal [ptw] rules, we would only be paying 33gpt.

Check this page for the rule changes to this game:
Rule changes (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/gotm28_features.shtml)

This is also why our Great Wall has put walls in every city. :)

We have 4 catapult, 3 archers & 2 NuMercs ready to attack Pompeii next turn. To do that, we have to move the catapults one tile S of Theveste. if the 3 archers & 1 spear roman stack moves W, then it could attack the catapult stack on favorable grounds. I think I should move the fortified NuMerc N on turn 0, in hope the romans will follow so I make the Pompeii attack. Should I wait until I got rid of those archers before I attack Pompeii?
All of the units in Theveste can move S and attack Pompeii on the same turn, as I have built a road in that square. We only need to worry about that stack if they move W before the next turn. If they move NE (or attack us), then our catapults can move out, attack, then move back the next turn before that stack can reach them.

You could also move a NuMerc from Theveste into the mountains W of the stack to block the path. I would rather the NuMercs hold that line in the mountains, as they have a defense value of 6 (6.75 if fortified).

Go ahead and short-rush the colosseum and research monarchy as fast as is necessary. I don't think we need to gift the scientific civs to the Middle Ages until the Hanging Gardens are complete.

Attack Pompeii and pillage the iron if you can.

Actually, lux can be lowered to 10% now, I believe.

It looks like we are the only ones in the Middle Ages (I doubt Babylon is the only other one), so still be watchful for barbarian uprisings.

Take the time necessary to play well.

@Zakharov: I already knew the rules were changed for unit costs to be closer to C3C rules. I actually play more C3C games than vanilla version games.

Considering we have TGWall which doubles the effect of walls, Maybe I should keep Theveste at size 6 for the time of this war, especially if legions appear.

@TimBentley: You are right, I will lower lux to 10%, But may have to raise it back to 20% next turn because of the workers that join Utica & Zak#1. Is there anything special I have to do against barb uprising except keeping the 2 NuMercs & 1 warrior near unsettled grounds?

@Zakharov: I will try to keep the NuMerc mountain line of defense. I really do not believe they will get attacked at Civ3Calculator says a regular archer would, on average only remove 1hp of an unfortified NuMerc on a mountain. Therefore, their only logical move is W, but I may be wrong about this.

I will play after supper.

150BC (preturn)
Disband warrior & short rush colosseum for 152g
lux to 10%, research to 40% for monarchy in 13t, -8gpt.
Move the NuMerc NW. If Rome wants to go through, it will have to go on plain or grassland where we can pick them off.

IBT
As planned, roman troops are heading toward the plain.

130BC (1)
Bombardment on Pompeii: 0/4. Attack on Pompeii postponed.
Joined 2 workers to cities. I thought it would force a lux increase but it looks ok.

IBT
A big pile of romans goes on the lamb plains as planned.
We meet the Scandinavian, down 4 techs and have 5 cities, maybe they are playing 5CC!

110BC (2)
Bombardment of the romans: 3/4
Kill 5 romans losing an archer & a NuMerc.

IBT
India & Persia make peace.

90BC (3)
Bombardment of archers on M: 2/4

70BC (4)
Galley sees a dark green border.
Bombardment on Pompeii: 1/4, wait for now as I will have 1 more archer next turn and a NuMerc will heal 1hp.
Research dropped to 30%, Mon in 10t, +3gpt. Palace prebuild finishes in 12t.

IBT - spear goes out of Pompeii going E. :confused:

50BC (5)
Meet Celts, down 6 techs and have 4 cities.
Bombardment on Pompeii: 2/5 -> the only spear is red-lined!
Attack on Pompeii: lose 2 archers :gripe: , but destroy Pompeii with the 3rd. :banana:
Make an archer-NuMerc pillage team going for the iron.

30BC (6) - zzz

IBT
4 roman archers goes on sleep plain, 3 archers & 2 spears 1 tile S.

10BC (7)
Bombardment of archers: 4/5
Kill the 4 archers and ...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Bede_SG004_BC10_01_GL.JPG

[dance]:band:[dance]

Considering I do not see how another civ could beat us to HG and we seem to be in a good position to get SC later (after a cathedral), I make a NuMerc army with it so we can build the heroic epic. Maybe I should discuss this with the team, but I really do not see any better alternative.
Pillage team goes next to Rome. There is a legionary protecting Rome.

IBT
Rome wants peace and would be willing to give Hispalis for it: No way!
3 Roman archers & 2 spears move next to Theveste.
An indian galley appears on the W coast.

10AD (8)
Bombardment of troops next to Theveste: 4/5
Pillage team on Iron.

IBT
3 roman archers move on grass next to Theveste.
Zak#1 riots. I do not know why, but CrpMapStat did not popup last turn.
A roman galley move on the E coast.

30AD (9)
CrpMapStat now popup telling me Zak#1 is unhappy (Wow! That was useful!): Lux to 20%, now -11gpt.
Bombardment of archers: 4/4; all red-lined.
Kill those 3 archers.
I did not keep enough units to protect Utica & Carthage so I rush an archer because of the roman galley.
Pillage iron. [party]

IBT - Roman archer attacks wounded NuMerc on H and fail. NuMerc promoted to elite. :D

50AD (10)
NuMerc army kills spear. Put the Heroic Epic in Utica build queue.

I must admit I did not do a very good job with the galleys. Sorry, but I am not used to differential movement.

Considering there are very few roman troops near our border, it may be a good time to go against Rome. If the next player decides it is so, move the 6 catapults in Theveste. N.B.: Our military is now strong compared to Rome!

Once Mon is researched, we can research mono, but I think we should shut down research all together.

The 2 workers near Hippo were going to join the worker near Carthage to bring irrigation to Hippo. The tile being irrigated can be mined once the plain next to it is irrigated.

We are about to contact Babylon E.

Score: 299
Jason Score: 396

Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_AD0050_01.SAV)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Bede_SG004_AD50_01.JPG

Roster:
TimBentley - up next
MOTH - on deck
Bede
Zakharov
fbouthil - just played

Got it, but I will not play until tomorrow. Well done on the war. I was thinking an army to enable the Heroic Epic would be a good plan. It is interesting that the Vikings and Celts have built a wonder but are small and backwards.

Zak#1 riots. I do not know why, but CrpMapStat did not popup last turn.
It is ten turns since Rome declared war on us, so the reverse WW has worn off. CrpMapStat only detects unhappiness when the one turn grace period is allowed (eg. on growth of a city). With no grace period (eg. WW, growth when governor is on), the rioting starts before MapStat detects it.

The reverse WW is also the reason why you were able to drop the luxury slider to 10% on turn 0. In hindsight, I should have dropped it when Rome declared war. :(

Good turns :thumbsup:

I think you made the right choice with the leader, the HE will be worth 2 culture in 1000 years time. If we get another soon, then it will be best to save it for a middle ages wonder. Sun-Tzu's, Leo's and the Sistine Chapel all come along in quick succession, so if we can get one built with a leader, we may have a shot at getting all three wonders.

Edit: Wow! I just checked the save. I thought the HE was worth 1 culture, it is actually worth 4. :yeah: That's 8 culture/turn in 1000 years. You definitely made the right choice getting that army. :goodjob:

I agree with shutting off research now. If a scientific civ gets to the middle ages alone, we may have to gift the others so that we get a free MA tech or two. We need to slow the tech rate down now so that we have a shot at all three early MA wonders.

Considering we have TGWall which doubles the effect of walls, Maybe I should keep Theveste at size 6 for the time of this war, especially if legions appear.
Does it double the effect of walls? In [c3c] rules, it places walls in every city instead of doubling their effect. I will post this question in the maintenance thread and see how the rules have been modified. I don't want to stunt the growth of Theveste unnecessarily. The extra 2 free units at size 7 will give us an extra 4gpt.

@Zakharov: I think you are right about TGWall, it only gives a free wall in every city on the same continent.

@TimBentley: Since the Celts & Vikings have less cities than most, it means they have bigger cities and that should explain in part why they built wonders faster than the other civs.

Rome is size 6. Maybe we should try to attack it before it gets to size 7. Actually, I did not check when Rome got to size 6. Maybe it will grow to size 7 before the 3t it takes to get there. I hope there are no more than 2 legionary in there, otherwise I do not think we can get it soon. If TimBentley thinks he can get it, he should get ready for the palace jump to Zak#1.

Make sure you get some lucky shots from catapults because Civ3Calculators shows that a veteran archer/NuMerc attacking legion fortified in a city would, on average, remove 1hp from the legion before dying. I am not sure that the army would survive an attack on a legion at 3/3!

I just remembered that the scientific trait is often changed in GOTM to allow for more balance between the two versions. I have asked whether this is the case in this GOTM in the maintenance thread.

If TimBentley thinks he can get it, he should get ready for the palace jump to Zak#1.
So the plan is to capture Rome and abandon Carthage, hmm? I'll keep that in mind.

So the plan is to capture Rome and abandon Carthage, hmm? I'll keep that in mind.

I don't think we need to abandon Carthage right away. I'm at work so I can't pull up the save, but isn't there some Wool south of Rome? If so then it might be better to raze Rome and settle a new city 1 (?) tile away that could get 2 Cows, a Wheat, an Iron, and a Wool or two. I also think it might be better to take out Antium first as we don't want a force harrasing our supply lines.

When I was looking at the save last night I was also thinking about a naval blockade. I think we can prevent India & Persia from crossing the straights as it is 6 naval movement points from coast to coast. If we park a galley on one (or two?) of the coasts we could block them from sending settlers to our island. I'm going to take a closer look tonight all around to see if we can pratically blockade our island with only a few galleys.

Tim, how do you calculate the OCN for the map? Was it just an estimate or is there a program. I'm thinking that where our cities are slightly more corrupt than calculated that the OCN might be lower. If so then 8 or 9 cities (1 captured + 2 or 3 built) might get us to the point of building the forbidden palace. Right now we've got HG and HE in the wings, but if tech stays slow then maybe we could get FP in between to help out with corruption all around.

Nice play all around gentlemen.

Razing Rome and taking the all the resources and the naval blockade are excellent headwork, MOTH!!

It's been a few turns and I don't think we are going to see many legions from the Romans. Keep the pressure on and they won't be able to build more than one or two.

Slowing the tech pace to the speed at which we can accumulate 300 shields at Utica is probably the best balancing act we can do. Fomenting an overseas war is another way to accomplish our goals of keeping the AI away from the cultural wonders and controlling the overall pace of technology. It looks like we have plenty of bait for "Let's him and you fight" alliances.

I don't think we need to abandon Carthage right away. I'm at work so I can't pull up the save, but isn't there some Wool south of Rome? If so then it might be better to raze Rome and settle a new city 1 (?) tile away that could get 2 Cows, a Wheat, an Iron, and a Wool or two. I also think it might be better to take out Antium first as we don't want a force harrasing our supply lines.
I think you're right that Rome is not in its optimal position. I'll consider taking out Antium as well.

When I was looking at the save last night I was also thinking about a naval blockade. I think we can prevent India & Persia from crossing the straights as it is 6 naval movement points from coast to coast. If we park a galley on one (or two?) of the coasts we could block them from sending settlers to our island. I'm going to take a closer look tonight all around to see if we can pratically blockade our island with only a few galleys.
Sounds like a good idea.

Tim, how do you calculate the OCN for the map? Was it just an estimate or is there a program. I'm thinking that where our cities are slightly more corrupt than calculated that the OCN might be lower. If so then 8 or 9 cities (1 captured + 2 or 3 built) might get us to the point of building the forbidden palace. Right now we've got HG and HE in the wings, but if tech stays slow then maybe we could get FP in between to help out with corruption all around.
Based on the corruption of Utica and LMOZ1 (obtained by CivAssist), I plugged those numbers into the equation formulated by Alexman for corruption. Then it was just two linear equations with two unknowns (OCN and map size). I actually calculated the map size to be 102, and the OCN was probably a couple of decimal points away from 16.

It's been a few turns and I don't think we are going to see many legions from the Romans. Keep the pressure on and they won't be able to build more than one or two.
No legions without any iron. :D

Slowing the tech pace to the speed at which we can accumulate 300 shields at Utica is probably the best balancing act we can do. Fomenting an overseas war is another way to accomplish our goals of keeping the AI away from the cultural wonders and controlling the overall pace of technology. It looks like we have plenty of bait for "Let's him and you fight" alliances.
Right, I'll lower research on monarchy since Heroic Epic is better for culture/shields and leaders.

By the way, I'll start playing in a few hours.

I don't think we need to abandon Carthage right away. I'm at work so I can't pull up the save, but isn't there some Wool south of Rome? If so then it might be better to raze Rome and settle a new city 1 (?) tile away that could get 2 Cows, a Wheat, an Iron, and a Wool or two. I also think it might be better to take out Antium first as we don't want a force harrasing our supply lines.
I was also going to suggest that capturing Rome is a bad idea, and these points make me even more convinced. There are two reasons I don't want Rome:

1) As I have stated repeatedly, I do not like having foreign citizens in our cities. They will cause too much war weariness when we are at war with the Romans later in this game. We will be at war often because we will need to go leader fishing.

2) The position Rome is in now will have some wasted tiles at size 20 due to the inland lake. We need 20 land tiles surrounding a city there for full productivity. As MOTH has said, we should settle a new city 1 tile SW of Rome's current position. :)

Right, I'll lower research on monarchy since Heroic Epic is better for culture/shields and leaders.
Does this mean you are planning to switch the Palace prebuild to the Heroic Epic? We only get one shot at the Hanging Gardens, but the HE is a small wonder so it can be built at any time. Are we confident that no other civ can build the HG within the next 16 turns? As there are no other wonders for the AI to prebuild they would have to build it from scratch. It is certainly a gamble.

If we build the HE in 1 turn and the HG in 16, we gain 40 culture compared to building the HG in 6 turns and the HE in 16. This is 4 per turn for five turns between 1 and 6, and an extra 4 per turn because the 1000 year mark arrives five turns sooner. Is 40 culture points in 20,000 worth the risk of missing out on the Hanging Gardens? :confused:

Of course, if we build the HE and then get a leader, we can get the HG within the next 10 turns. :D

I realized about 1 hour after my post this morning that I should never have suggested capturing Rome. I completely agree that it must be replace. On the other hand, I do not like settling one tile SW of Rome as it is still too far to get wool and it is getting too far for its border to join Theveste, leaving enough space between them for other civs to put a city.

Unfortunately, I do not see any spots as good. One tile NW of Rome is not bad, but compared to one tile SW of Rome, it replaces H + 2BG by 2 Coast + J. It would still have a pretty decent production and I think the production at size 12 is much more important than the one at size 20.

Of course, if you have a good tactic about preventing other civs to settle between the new city and Theveste, I agree with one tile SW of Rome. Another possibility is to prevent the romans from settling there and make friends with Persia or India with a RoP if they settle there.

We can get a blockade in the West.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SG4BEDEblockade1.jpg

Obviously we need to place a galley on the red dot on our side of the straights.

In the East it looks like we are far enough away.

In the South it looks like it maybe difficult to block. Maybe we will have an option once we have explored more.

Does this mean you are planning to switch the Palace prebuild to the Heroic Epic? We only get one shot at the Hanging Gardens, but the HE is a small wonder so it can be built at any time. Are we confident that no other civ can build the HG within the next 16 turns? As there are no other wonders for the AI to prebuild they would have to build it from scratch. It is certainly a gamble.

If we build the HE in 1 turn and the HG in 16, we gain 40 culture compared to building the HG in 6 turns and the HE in 16. This is 4 per turn for five turns between 1 and 6, and an extra 4 per turn because the 1000 year mark arrives five turns sooner. Is 40 culture points in 20,000 worth the risk of missing out on the Hanging Gardens? :confused:

Of course, if we build the HE and then get a leader, we can get the HG within the next 10 turns. :D
According to my research spreadsheet, they are (relatively significantly) more likely to research construction than monarchy (and I didn't bother to alter the cost due to our knowledge). The reason for my thought to build the Heroic Epic first was solely the leaders (although extra culture isn't bad).

50(0)-switch Utica to Heroic Epic for greater leader chances.
set science to 10%
move some catapults for attack on Antium

IBT-Utica Heroic Epic->palace
Rome moves some archers, founds Viroconium near old Pompeii
Theveste archer->archer
build steps and columns on palace

70(1)-find Samarra of Babylon on a one-tile island
Babylon knows monarchy, lacks construction and republic, has 9 cities, horses, iron, dyes, incense
:eek: They're building Hanging Gardens in Akkad
archer kills Roman archer
find a one-tile island with a mountain

IBT-Roman archers move
Carthage worker->worker

90(2)-bombard Antium, army kills spearman

IBT-Roman archers move
Roman settler pair drops off next to NuMerc
LMOZ1-NuMerc->NuMerc, MM it for two-turn NuMercs

110(3)-bombard Antium, army kills spear, archer dies to spear
NuMerc kills spear to capture Roman settler

IBT-Indians drop off settler pair by ivory
Carthage worker->worker
Theveste archer->archer
Can you guess what Rome does?

130(4)-Greece knows feudalism
Scandinavia, Babylon (who is not scientific) are also in Middle Ages

IBT-LMOZ1 NuMerc->NuMerc
Rome...

150(5)-bombard Antium, don't attack yet
Find wines in the middle of the ocean

IBT- :( India founds city by ivory
Greeks start Sun Tzu's Art of War
I'm not going to bother mentioning Roman archer movements

170(6)-bombard archer, archer dies to archer, vet NuMerc dies to archer, vet NuMerc kills archer, elite NuMerc kills archer, elite NuMerc kills archer
bombard Antium, archer dies against spearman, archer kills spearman, NuMerc kills spearman, NuMerc kills archer, razes Antium, getting one slave

IBT-Carthage worker->archer
LMOZ1 NuMerc->NuMerc
Theveste archer->archer
Hippo aqueduct->library
Vikings establish embassy

190(7)-NuMerc kills archer to capture settler

IBT-Celts declare war on Vikings
learn monarchy, shut off research

210(8)-Hanging Gardens in 8 turns
bombard Viroconium, one archer promotes in razing the city

IBT-LMOZ1 NuMerc->NuMerc

230(9)-zzz

IBT-Theveste archer->archer (2-turn archers)

250(10)-Stack begins to move on Rome

Notes: Sorry if we lose Hanging Gardens to Babylon. I still think we can get it first.
The western blockade has been set. I think when I was looking into other possible blockades, I was thinking ocean was more than one movement point :crazyeye:.

Here is the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_AD0250_01.SAV).

A picture speaks a thousand words:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bedestack.JPG

Well we can only hope Akkad is not producing anywhere near as many shields as Utica. If we do miss the HG with 1 turn left, we will have to do some gifting and then buy techs from scientific civs for Republic and Monarchy. If we miss out by more than 1 turn then we can use the Palace prebuild again, gift the scientific civs into the MA and hope for Feudalism from the GLib.

If we do get the HG, we need to get started on a Sun Tzu's prebuild right away. I just hope we get a leader, or we will miss out on either Sun Tzu's or Leo's. Both of these cost 600 shields, as does the Sistine Chapel. That's 90 turns in Utica to build all three. Can we slow the tech rate enough? I don't think so, in which case a leader will be like gold dust to us.

Looking at our military, we are paying 70gpt. The warrior in Utica must go as it is a waste of 2gpt. The archer in LMOZ1 should be moved to the front lines. We are in Republic, so we cannot use these units for military police. If you want two units for defence then use NuMercs.

Losing the ivory is not important at the moment. We need to spend 20% on luxuries with or without it. If we can get a supply of wool, then we need to get the ivory back asap. I think three luxuries will allow us to drop the lux rate to 10%, especially if we build marketplaces.

If we raze Rome, then it looks like none of their other cities have any culture. If we settle our fifth city in that area, we need to get culture buildings in there fast. If we can get some flips, we can accept the cities and raze them. If they settle between Theveste and the new city, we can go back to war with them. If we control the iron, then the Romans stand no chance against our NuMercs and Med. Infantry.

We have no need to worry about our reputation by declaring war within 20 turns of making peace. We have been razing cities and will continue to do so, and this is a bigger rep hit. We are going for a 20K win, so we must keep focussed on that goal, don't worry about good diplomacy.

Anyway, just some random thoughts about the state of the game so far. :)

Thoughts for my turn:

1. I think we should get peace with Rome once we capture Rome. They will probably give us one or 2 cities in the peace.

2. I will build 1 more settler if Tim hasn't yet to get it to the new location near Rome.

3. Once we have peace with Rome we can look into getting the Ivory back. We might need to beef up the blockade with a second galley to prevent passage.

I agree with the discussed plan against Rome.

Sun Tzu or Leo brings only 2 cpt. I do not care if we lose them. SC is 6cpt and is a must. If we have to build Sun Tzu to keep the sh accumulated for HG, I think we should consider it a prebuild for SC.

We have 7 slaves and almost all tiles that we will use until we get hospitals have been improved. We should join all the workers to Hippo & Theveste, keeping only slaves. :cool:

I would also prefer if Hippo was building a market instead of a lib because of our high unit costs. Switch the archer being built in Carthage to a settler. You can also build the settler in Theveste to get it faster and replace its population by joining workers built in Carthage.

Rome is still size 6. It must be making settlers. Fools! :)

Persia has an extra horse. We cannot trade for it yet, but I think we should try to stay friends with them so we can trade for it when we get astronomy.

oh yeah. Got it. Will look to implement fbouthils suggestions.

I think we can't trade for the horse because we don't have a harbor. Theveste will start one soon.

Razing cities only affects attitude, not reputation.

Sun Tzu's and Leonardo's are not vital to a 20k victory.

We also need astronomy to establish a sea route with Persia for trade.

The warrior could be disbanded when cathedral production begins, so rushing would not have the double penalty. But maybe saving money now is a good plan.

The limited cash resources in an XCC game make libraries more useful for cultural expansion than research, so marketplaces and banks are a better choice than libraries/universities to fuel research. With no more than 5 libraries/universities the cash drain for maintenance often exceeds the research value generated.

Also in a 5CC cultural victory SunT is not a good value for the shields. Sistine Chapel is much better with SunT as a prebuild for the chapel.

On the reputation/attitude hit for breaking peace treaties/razing cities I think breaking a peace treaty has the same effect as breaking any other twenty turn deal. It makes making any term deal a matter of threatening war. The attitude hit for razing cities is more of an annoyance then anything else as it makes the other guy more likely to declare war on the smallest provocation.

Can we use technology to foment war on the other continent(s) and get the scientific civs caught up that way while slowing the researchpace at the same time?

Unless War Weariness is a problem I wouldn't be in a hurry to make peace with Rome. Another MGL real soon will be a big help.

250AD(0) - Hippo grass to hills for 1 turn savings on Library. I may have to be moved back to grass next turn after growth. Theveste switched to courthouse.

IBT - archers. LMOZ1: Mercs. The Greeks are building hanging gardens. They are still building Sun Tzu's as well.

260AD(1) - Bomb an Archer and attack with Elite Merc.

ibt - archers. Carthage Archer>Settler

270AD(2) - Bomb some archers. 4/4 Archer v 2/3 Archer - we lose. 4/4 Merc v 1/3 archer we win and are 2/4. Elite Merc v 1/3 archer we win. 4/4 Archer v 2/3 archer across a river we win. Adjust MM on Hippo and Theveste.

IBT - archers. We Learn Fuedalism from the Greeks and Germans. Switch to Mono in forever. LMOZ1 Mercs.

280AD(3) - Per Fbouthil's suggestion switched Hippo to market.

ibt - archers.

290AD(4) - War weariness is kicking in (affecting LMOZ1 and TheVeste)- Luxury to 30%. 5/5 merc v 3/3 archer we go to 4/5. 4/4 Merc v 3/3 Archer we go 3/4. 4/4 merc v 3/3 archer we go 1/4.

ibt - archers. 3/3 archer v 3/4 Merc we win and get promoted to 4/5. Rome moves a 2/3 Archer out of Rome. LMOZ Mercs.

300AD(5) - Attack on Rome (still size 6) - 6 Bombard gets: 1 hit on 3/3 legion and 1 hit on 3/3 spear. 3/3 spear is showing. Attack proceeding. 4/4 archer vs 3/3 spear - we get 1 hit and promote the spear to 3/4. 4/4 archer vs 3/4 spear we get 2 hits and expose 2/3 Legion. 5/5 Merc vs 2/3 Legion - we win and go to 4/5. 3/3 Archer vs 2/3 spear we win and go to 2/3 and expose 3/3 archer. 5/5 merc vs 3/3 archer - we lose and get 1 hit :( 4/5 merc vs 1/4 spear we win. 12/12 army vs 2/3 archer we win and capture Rome (soon to be abandoned.)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bedesg4Rome.jpg

Other attacks: 4/4 merc vs 3/3 archer we win and go 1/4. 4/4 merc vs 2/3 archer we win and go 2/4. 4/4 merc vs 3/3 archer we win. 4/4 merc vs 3/3 archer we win. 4/5 merc vs 3/3 archer we win and are 1/5. I can no longer see any Roman archers!

Rome will give us Veii, Ravenna, and Hispalis for Peace so I take it. They also give us 2 workers and 24G for Poly. Theveste switches from Couthouse in 2 to Forbidden Palace in 11 (with no growth). Ravenna has a harbor that I sell. I abbandon Rome, Ravenna, Veii, and Hispalis. Rome now has 3 cities.

Check about shopping stuff around. Ottomons have Engineering and will give it to us for all techs we know. I take this deal as they would get it from Greece or Germans and it will keep us with a trading advantage over Greece/Germany. It will also put Otto in disorder for a few turns and stop his research.

I check sliders now that we're at peace, but can't adjust yet.

IBT - Hanging Gardens in Utica!
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bedesg4HG.jpg
Utica starts Sun Tzu's in 29 turns. Babs, Greeks, and Germans are all building Sun Tzu's.

310AD(6) - With 1 entertainer in Theveste we can switch Luxury back to 20% for 13 GPT (+25gpt now).

IBT - Roman settler triplet move toward old Veii. Settler in Carthage. LMOZ1 Merc>Market. Hippo Market>Harbor.

320AD(7) - Barb camp on old Veii. Move to block Roman Settler. Trade India Poly for Worker and 9 G. Rome gets Monarchy for 15G + 6GPT.

IBT - Rome builds Lutetia on Wool. Roman archer kills barb camp.

330AD(8) - Build a Wool Colony. Allows Theveste Entertainer to be a scientist.

IBT - 5 Spear move to Lutetia.

340AD(9) - ZZZ

IBT - Greece demands Engineering. I call their bluff.

350AD(10) - Theveste laborer put back to work. Hippo Taxman changed to Scientist.

Situation:
Firaxis 353
Jason 467

save is here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_AD0350_01.SAV)

There is an Indian Galley on our side of the crossing that has been moving toward the crossing. I think we should move 1 tile South and let it cross and then put the blockade back in place.

I started the Forbidden Palace in Theveste as I didn't think we would get as easy an opportunity to build it in Utica and it should help fight corruption, especially in new Rome.

Settler is within 2 or 3 moves from settling. We need to decide location. I think the BG 2 SW of old Rome would be good but we'd have to take out the new Roman city for full expansion.

Lots of units near Rome. I apologize that I got us into the GPT deal. It would have been nice to just break peace. They will also give us 9GPT and 60G for currency. 17turns left on current GPT deal so maybe we take that too and we go after India instead.

Utica will soon get 1 more shield as I'm planting a forest to be done IBT. A second forest or two should get us to maximum size 12 production.

I wasn't sure what to do with Carthage. It will have 3 shields and we could rush one more thing before we abandon it.

Units: 42 - 13 allowed. 58GPT cost. 1 settler, 3 native workers, 5 archers, 6 catapults, 3 galley, 1 Army, 23 Mercs, 9 slaves.

Roster:
Bede
Zakharov
fbouthil
TimBentley
MOTH - It may not come back to me, but skip 10/1-10/3 (be back at 5pm EST)

One more note: Due to the bombarding I killed the Roman Legion in 1 attack, so I think we avoided Rome's Golden age. Of course all it would have meant was a ton more Archers to kill so maybe we should have let them get the GA...

Good work on Rome and good job getting the forbidden palace started in Theveste.

Regarding the gpt deal, it only prolongs the peace by a few turns, since breaking the peace treaty would hurt just as breaking the gpt deal would.

I like this location for new Rome. On expansion it gets 5BG, 2 Cow, 2 Wool, 1 Wheat, 2 hills, and 10 or 11 tiles with the river commerce bonus. 1 NE trades the 2 wools for the 1 iron and a few more rivers. The Wool are killer: 3 food, 2 Shields, 2 Gold, Luxury before improvement.

That looks like a good spot, although that Roman city will have to go. :devil2:

Nice job on the FP and the war with Rome.

Indians make nice leader farms too, and deending on their location on the map and relative strength might make good furball candidates.

Will pick up and play tomorrow.

@MOTH Good job with the FP. I didn't think it would be possible to build it as I imagined we would have to waste shields and pop on settlers. Getting those Roman towns was an excellent move. :goodjob:

I think the harbour in Hippo should be changed to a courthouse or colosseum. As some of you have already stated, we cannot trade with Persia until we get astronomy, and we do not need veteran boats. The colosseum would allow the scientist to work a tile, and the courthouse would cut corruption and give us a few more commerce.

Remember to sell the barracks in Carthage before disbanding it. It's only 5 gold, but it's better than nothing.

Ok, I agree with settling on the BG. We just need to make sure the Romans do not settle next to the iron. Keep a wall of NuMercs around the iron hill while we develop culture in the new city.

Sun Tzu's and Leonardo's are not vital to a 20k victory.
All culture producing buildings are vital to a 20K victory. Yes, the Sistine Chapel is more important, but I would like to get at least one if not both of Sun Tzu's and Leo's, as well as the SC. The more culture buildings we can get, the quicker the 20K win will come. :)

All right! Everything is going according to plan. Great job MOTH!

Check about shopping stuff around. Ottomons have Engineering and will give it to us for all techs we know. I take this deal as they would get it from Greece or Germans and it will keep us with a trading advantage over Greece/Germany. It will also put Otto in disorder for a few turns and stop his research.
You applied here a tactic that is unfamiliar to me. I understand that since Otto has all tech, he won't trade engineering for another tech to other civ and since the other civs lack any money, Otto won't probably trade to anyone, but I do not understand how it puts Otto in disorder and stop research. What do you mean by that exactly? It sounds like a very interesting tactics.

How about rushing a temple in New Rome to get access to the food bonuses faster? We have enough money and we have 25t to build enough cash to rush a catedral in Utica when the wonder is finished. With the new territory, New Rome should boost our score! :cool:

@Zakharov: Building all 3 wonders in Utica would be great. To do that, we would need to prevent the other civs from using Sun Tzu as prebuild for Leo & SC, or get 2 GL. Remember that many civ used HG as prebuild for Sun Tzu. I think building Sun Tzu & Leo without GL is unrealistic. Maybe we can build one + SC, but in any case, SC should be first or we risk losing it.

If we are going against India, then I suggest we send our elite units (2 NuMercs + 1 archer) with catapults to maximize the chances of getting GL. I think it takes about 10t for those units to get to Kilhapur, so in 20t, they would be back near the Romans for the next roman war. :mischief:

I would have to disagree with building coloseum. We will have access to cathedrals soon. They bring much more happiness, especially because of the SC we are building. But I agree that Hippo does not need a harbor. Theveste does need one to grow faster. Theveste also need a market, but none are vital enough to rush.

You applied here a tactic that is unfamiliar to me. I understand that since Otto has all tech, he won't trade engineering for another tech to other civ and since the other civs lack any money, Otto won't probably trade to anyone, but I do not understand how it puts Otto in disorder and stop research. What do you mean by that exactly? It sounds like a very interesting tactics.
Among the technologies sold to Ottomans (I assume they didn't research either during MOTH's turns) were monarchy and republic.

I would have to disagree with building coloseum. We will have access to cathedrals soon. They bring much more happiness, especially because of the SC we are building. But I agree that Hippo does not need a harbor. Theveste does need one to grow faster. Theveste also need a market, but none are vital enough to rush.
Agreed. Monotheism will probably be gained soon.

Regarding wonders, we can go for Sistine Chapel first and reevaluate our goals for the next wonder. I would rather get Copernicus' Observatory or JS Bach's Cathedral.

You applied here a tactic that is unfamiliar to me. I understand that since Otto has all tech, he won't trade engineering for another tech to other civ and since the other civs lack any money, Otto won't probably trade to anyone, but I do not understand how it puts Otto in disorder and stop research. What do you mean by that exactly? It sounds like a very interesting tactics.

Two of the techs that Otto didn't have were Monarchy and Republic. As soon as an AI gets one of these they will switch to it. They wil go into Anarchy and stop research while the switch happens. Its only a few turns but hopefully it will happen.

As for the harbor, I am 90% certain that the GLH allows for trading over sea squares in PTW. If we complete the harbor we will be able to trade for Persia's horses and if India builds a harbor we can trade with Ghandi too.

As far as wonders go: no civ has a tech to build any wonder other than Sun Tzu at this time. No Civ has Mono yet (gotta be right around the corner). Only 1 other civ has Engineering. So no new Wonder should be available before 20 turns or so. I think this gives us a decent shot at getting Sun Tzu and stopping the Wonder Cascade before the tech game has caught up.

Assuming that I guess right on this:
This will let us maybe rush a Cathedral and start a pre-build for Sistine. The top 5 cities is only showing the 3 wonder cities and 2 capital cities. All of which are pretty small (size 8 max?).

So, Can Utica producing 22 or 23 shields post corruption build two 600 shield wonders before the other Civs can produce 1? Unless we get a leader I doubt it but its possible. At least one if the AIs has to have a city producing 15 spt. We may need to do a little spying after we complete Sistine to determine which of the other Civs are closest and get them into a fight with each other.

I think I had 5 elite wins on my turns, hopefully the next GL is around the corner. If any other team is going for 20K and gets lucky with the leaders then this will give them an edge....

As for the harbor, I am 90% certain that the GLH allows for trading over sea squares in PTW. If we complete the harbor we will be able to trade for Persia's horses and if India builds a harbor we can trade with Ghandi too.
I did not realize that the Great Lighthouse allows sea trading. Testing it, I confirmed this and also learned that a civilization without a harbor can use someone else's harbor (unless I really screwed something up with the testing).

As for the harbor, I am 90% certain that the GLH allows for trading over sea squares in PTW. If we complete the harbor we will be able to trade for Persia's horses and if India builds a harbor we can trade with Ghandi too.
Yes, you absolutely correct here. I don't often build the Lighthouse, so I had forgotten about this rule. In that case the harbour in Hippo is a must.

I have just been reading the maintenance thread, in particular the post by klarius about civ trait changes. I have used Ainwood's CivAssist utility and discovered that the Babylonians are not scientific/religious, but are in fact industrious/religious.

I guess I must have been brain-dead yesterday when I did not realized we were trading new goverment to Otto.

Interesting this effect of TGLight. The description of the wonder does not show that. Since Persepolis has a harbor, that would permit us to trade for horses. Our military is strong enough right now, so we do not really need any more units for the moment, but that would permit us to build horsemen to upgrade to knights soon.

@MOTH: I missed a couple of elite units when I did my count yesterday. Now I count 4 NuMercs & 1 archer, but one of the NuMercs is far SW and would take too long to wait for it before the assault on Kolhapur.

I hope MOTH is right about the fact that we can finish Sun Tzu before any other wonder are available. Shouldn't we try to start a war on the big continent to slow down research to help that possibility a little? The only 2 big civs are Babylon (9 cities) & Greece (10 cities) and I think they may be big enough to force the Ottoman (4 cities) into giving them Engineering.

0-350AD

Not much to do except try and plan an Indian War.

And Gandhi is cooperating by trying to extort Construction but he backs off when told to get lost.

1-360
Manuvering around to blockade Roman settler teams.

Rome gets Construction from somewhere.

2-370
Preparing to abandon Carthage as settler has reached his spot. Sell barracks and rush worker.

Carthage is abandoned and LMOK gets the palace and a marketplace.

3-380
Looks like Rome has sold Construction to the Indians as their treasury has jumped. by ~30g and India can now build things.

Found Leptis Minor at the gates of Lutetia and short rush a library.

Seal the Romans in their little corner of the world.

4-390
Disband a regular archer and cash rush the temple in Leptis Minor.

5-400
I can get horses and furs from Xerxes for Math, Polytheism and 15g. As the added lux would be nice as would fast attack do the deal, turn down the lux slider and will get the cash back next turn.

Forbidden Palace completes in Theveste.

400-440
Move troops into position against the Indians and develop the terrain at Leptis Minor

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4Bede450IndianExFor.jpg

450
The big news is the Greeks have Monotheism and want most of everything we have for it.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4Bede450Monotheism.jpg

The South

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4Bede450Rome.jpg

Built a small handful of warriors to upgrade to swords for the Roman war and built a couple of horsemen once the deal with X-man has been done.

There is still a single scientist at work in Hippo as I decided to wait until we had the libraries there and in Theveste before turning up the Bunsen burners.

The way the land lays on the other landmasses it didn't seem to make much sense to foment conflict over there. Nobody seems to know anybody. And while the Great Library is still active a reasonable pace on the part of the other guys is not a bad thing. We can take advantage of it while we build cash to make the rush to Sistine's and Bach's. Once Education comes in then will be the time to pull out the war wampum and get some serious catfights going on.

The blockade force in the south has been rotating in and out of the jungle to avoid losses due to disease in the jungles.

Here's the Save

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_AD0450_01.SAV

All right! Looking good. :clap:

A few thoughts:

Should we ask Persia to join us in a war against India? :mischief:
Leptis Minor is building a granary. If I calculated correctly and labor BG instead of cows to get as much shield as possible, the granary would be finished in 12t and the city would be size 5, growing in 2t. We have 4 workers to join at size 7, which would be 4t later. If we work a cow instead of BG, we can grow every 3t and get to size 7 in 15t. Therefore, I think we should switch production to courthouse.
Sun Tzu will be finished in 13t. Only the Ottomans know engineering so I do not think anyone will know invention at that time. The only risk is that the Greeks have a shot at getting theo, but I doubt it because they just got mono. We are in trouble if I am wrong about this and we do not have a GL to rush SC.
Keep a good amount in the treasury and an archer in Utica to rush a cathedral in 1t after Sun Tzu.

Good points, fbouthil. Greece took 26 turns to research monotheism, and their research capabilities can't have increased so much that they could research a more expensive technology in half the time. Ottomans have had less than 15 turns to research, and have less research capabilities than Greece. Thus, Sun Tzu's Art of War can be built (stopping the cascade).

Got it.

Hopefully I can get a leader during my turns. If I do shall I:
a) use it on Sun Tzu's, start a prebuild for the next wonder and hope for another leader, or,
b) save it until Sun Tzu's is complete, then use it when Leo's or SC become available, or,
c) any other suggestions?

This is wishful thinking I know, but it is best to be prepared. :)

The way the land lays on the other landmasses it didn't seem to make much sense to foment conflict over there. Nobody seems to know anybody. And while the Great Library is still active a reasonable pace on the part of the other guys is not a bad thing. We can take advantage of it while we build cash to make the rush to Sistine's and Bach's. Once Education comes in then will be the time to pull out the war wampum and get some serious catfights going on.
I agree that we should leave the other civs as they are until the GLib expires. The tech pace seems to be slow enough as it is without any help from us.

I should get this played tomorrow sometime.

Got it.

Hopefully I can get a leader during my turns. If I do shall I:
a) use it on Sun Tzu's, start a prebuild for the next wonder and hope for another leader, or,
b) save it until Sun Tzu's is complete, then use it when Leo's or SC become available, or,
c) any other suggestions?

I think we should save it and rush Sistine or Leo's when its available. We shouldn't waste the 300 shields we have in Sun Tzu's.

I think we should save it and rush Sistine or Leo's when its available. We shouldn't waste the 300 shields we have in Sun Tzu's.
I agree. It is unlikely we would be wasting the chance for another leader, as the chance of two leaders would be rather slim. Sistine would be preferable over Leo's, of course.

I agree with saving the GL. If we cannot prevent the wonder cascade, then we will rush the available wonder right away. If we can prevent the wonder cascade, then it is entirely different. We will see how much shields we have in the palace prebuild when we get theo to decide if we should build SC ourselves and either rush Leo or save the GL for Bach or we scrap whatever prebuild we have (into a courthouse or a market) and rush SC.

BTW, my test game ended when Rome started invading my territory with 20 knights & 10 MedInf (it had crushed Egypt just before me). :cry: I will have to start another test game if I want to understand how a 20K victory in a 5CC works after the second half of MA.

Therefore, it is a good thing you do not accept every one of my suggestions. Keep criticizing me when I write something stupid. :)

I have played my turns and uploaded the save. I have to go out soon so I cannot get the turnlog posted until either late tonight or tomorrow morning. Please peruse the save and see what you think.
Here it is:

550AD SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_AD0550_01.SAV)

Score: 409, Jason: 542

A brief summary:

I went to war with India and destroyed the ivory town, then built a new colony. With the blockade they won't be back anytime soon. I made peace before my turns ended.

I am at war with Babylon. They demanded engineering and I told them where to go. :D I signed an alliance with the Celts and Vikings against them to keep that continent busy.

We got Monotheism from the GLib. Utica gets Sun Tzu's in 3. 10 archers are in or nearby to disband-rush a cathedral. Nobody has more techs than us yet.

Oh, by the way: [dance]

Looks good. Since the Vikings and Celts already were at war, that makes it a three-way war. Greece will probably be the primary researcher.

It looks like a war with Rome to remove their encroaching cities will soon be needed. I don't like starting a war when we have a leader waiting in Utica, however.

India has built a harbor, but we don't have a route to Delhi. I guess they haven't connected their cities. :crazyeye:

I guess I will wait for the timeline before posting a got it, but here are my thoughts:

Sun Tzu will be completed in 3t. A cathedral in 4t from now. A palace prebuild follows due in 18t. Are we confident we can get theology at that time? I could start research on it at 30% to get it in 17t. We could also stay at 0% and reevaluate the situation in 10t.
Leptis Minor is producing enough excess food (+10), so I would like to switch the granary to a courthouse as I said before. With that much food, it should be size 11 after my turns, without a granary.
Theveste is growing in 20t. Since we have plenty of slaves (and more are coming), I want to join a worker right now.
In 4t, Leptis Minor's borders will grow giving us iron to upgrade the 3 warriors. Once that has been done, they will go toward Syracuse and DoW on romans. There is enough troops in Leptis Minor to get Lutetia. Any other targets I should favor? I guess the idea is to get as much elite as possible since we already have a leader. We can try to get more slaves also.
The horse deal with Persia ends in 5t. Once Lutetia is out of the way, should I trade wool for horse or fur? Or both with a little money?
Should I build a few cathedral to compensate WW?

450(0)- Do some MMing to give more food or commerce in some cities, whilst still getting the build done in the same number of turns. eg. In Hippo I moved a hill tile (1/3/2) to a coast tile (2/0/3) with the Library still in 2 turns.
I check CrpMapStat and see that Leptis Minor needs only 1 unit garrison to prevent a flip.

IBT- A barb warrior appears from the eastern gap fog.
Harbour built in Theveste > Marketplace in 6
Ottomans + Babylonians learn Monotheism. The GLib will give it to us next turn, so I switch research to Invention at 0% with 1 scientist in Hippo.

460(1)- Vet horseman attacks barb warrior > 4/4, no promotion.
I declare war on India and move the stack next to Kohalpur.

IBT- We learn Monotheism from the GLib.
LMOZ1 builds horseman > archer in 1 (for rushing the cathedral in Utica)
Hippo builds Library > Courthouse in 7
CrpMapStat says we are joint tech leaders with Greece and the Ottomans.

470(2)- I unleash the catapults on Kohalpur. 1 miss, then 3 hits. They have 2 spears at 2/3 and 1/3.
Our archer attacks with no resistance (5/5) and........

General Mago arises to lead our troops :beer:

I send him back to Utica.
A NuMerc mops up in Kohalpur (5/5) and sacks it for 2g.
I take the town, but there is nothing to sell, so I abandon it.
Our slave worker builds a new ivory colony.
I check the lux effect of the ivory, but we will have to stay at 10% until we build a marketplace in Theveste and a courthouse in Hippo.

Horseman disperses Ainu camp for 25g (no promotion).

IBT- LMOZ1 builds archer > archer in 1, I send him to Utica.
I continue to build a new archer every turn in LMOZ1, so I will not write every single one.

480(3)- Leptis Minor is now producing 10 food per turn. Granary in 15.

IBT- Romans move into our territory! 3 turns left on the peace deal.

490(4)- I order the Romans to withdraw their troops. They agree.
I move some NuMercs out of Leptis Minor to protect the workers from sneak attacks.

IBT- I have to end the turn with a galley in Persian territory. They ask me to withdraw. I apologize to them.
A Roman galley heads N from Pisae.

500(5)- Instead of sending him S, I keep a horseman in Hippo to deal with barbs in the eastern gap. I plan to allow barb camps to form in the fog to give promotion opportunities.

IBT- A Roman settler pair lands next to the wool colony.
Persia and the Celts get Construction, but still lack Currency.

510(6)- Some troop and worker movement.

IBT- Hamurabi of the Babylonians demands Engineering. I laugh in his face, so he declares war.
Romans found Syracuse next to the wool.
Theveste builds Marketplace > Library

520(7)- We don't need the wool just yet, as we can run the lux rate at 10% with just 2 luxuries. I therefore postpone my attack on the Romans.
I complete a road network around Leptis Minor, so I send most of the workers N to Theveste.
I build an embassy with the Celts for 50g.
I get a military alliance with the Celts and Vikings against Babylon. I have to give Monarchy to the Celts, but I get the Vikings to pay us 22g for the alliance! :D
This should keep Babylon busy. :mischief:
Our military advisor tells me there are Sui tribes near Hippo. I send the horse into the fog.

IBT- Hippo builds courthouse > horseman in 2.
Our people expand the palace. I tell them to add a new upper chamber and to plant some trees. :)
Germany has Monotheism.

530(8)- Horse attacks barb camp (3/4)
I decide not to attack Rome during my turns. I want to use the leader first.

IBT- Roman settler pair enters our territory.
I lose a galley in treacherous waters. Sorry guys, I made a wrong move with it.
India will talk. They are in the MA now.

540(9)- Horseman disperses barb camp (3/4). Still no promotion. :(
I make peace with India and get 19g from them.

IBT- I see two Roman settler pairs moving through their territory. The one in our territory heads S, so I let it go.
Hippo builds a horseman > horseman in 2.
The Celts are in the MA. Only the Persians are not.

550(10)- Just some worker moves, not much else.

Firaxis score: 409, Jason score: 542

Notes:
There are 9 archers in Utica and 1 just outside, all for disbanding towards a cathedral. Every archer we can disband will save 28g in rushing costs.

Sun Tzu's in 3. We should get it before the Greeks do. The leader in Utica is ready to rush Leo's or the SC. We should get both if we rush the first and build the second, as the tech pace seems very slow.

The horseman E of Hippo should move in and out of the eastern gap looking for barbs. When he is elite, he should be replaced by another.

Even though Hippo is at size 12, I deliberately gave it +2 food surplus, as this gives an extra 3gpt. The horseman is finished in exactly 2 turns at 15 shields/turn.

The horse outside LMOZ1 is heading S.

The workers around Theveste are irrigating the grassland and mining/roading the mountain. I made a miscalculation here. I moved the worker to irrigate the final mined grassland, but it should stay mined or we will have a 1 food surplus at size 12. The mountain also doesn't need to be worked. Maybe the workers can put a road S of the two sheep in the mountain and hill.

1 native worker could join Theveste to get it to size 12 now.

I brought a galley back to our waters. We have met everyone now and we can't do proper exploring until we can sail the ocean safely. It could be disbanded to save 2gpt.

Our forces are ready to move in on the Romans. I wanted to wait until we had used the leader. If we go to war before this, then use veteran units not elites.

Leptis Minor has a 10 food surplus. It will grow every 2 turns with the granary or every 4 turns without it. The border will expand in 4 turns to grab the iron.

There are 17 turns left of our alliances against Babylon. Should we get Greece involved to slow them down?

We have 1196g in the bank. We are earning 72gpt. The military support cost is 86gpt, though this will drop when we disband the archers in Utica.

Roster:
fbouthil - up next
TimBentley - on deck
MOTH
Bede
Zakharov - just played

The southern front in 550AD (with possible road marked):

I guess I will wait for the timeline before posting a got it, but here are my thoughts:

Sun Tzu will be completed in 3t. A cathedral in 4t from now. A palace prebuild follows due in 18t. Are we confident we can get theology at that time? I could start research on it at 30% to get it in 17t. We could also stay at 0% and reevaluate the situation in 10t.
Leptis Minor is producing enough excess food (+10), so I would like to switch the granary to a courthouse as I said before. With that much food, it should be size 11 after my turns, without a granary.
Theveste is growing in 20t. Since we have plenty of slaves (and more are coming), I want to join a worker right now.
In 4t, Leptis Minor's borders will grow giving us iron to upgrade the 3 warriors. Once that has been done, they will go toward Syracuse and DoW on romans. There is enough troops in Leptis Minor to get Lutetia. Any other targets I should favor? I guess the idea is to get as much elite as possible since we already have a leader. We can try to get more slaves also.
The horse deal with Persia ends in 5t. Once Lutetia is out of the way, should I trade wool for horse or fur? Or both with a little money?
Should I build a few cathedral to compensate WW?

Answering point by point:
1) Greece should learn a new tech soon. I say wait until after the cathedral is built before deciding whether or not to increase research, as we will lose those archers from the military support cost.
2) Size 7 and above, and without a granary, it will grow every 4 turns, so it will be size 9 at the end of your turns. I say build the granary, then sell it at size 12.
3) Agreed, join the worker.
4) Yes, Lutetia and Syracuse are the primary targets. It is probably unnecessary to raze any other towns right now. We want the Romans to have a few towns for effective future leader farming.
5) Do we need horses straight away? We have a few currently and our slow units are already on the front line. It's probably best to get the furs.
6) I was wondering the same thing during my turns. The library in Theveste is probably not needed yet, though the culture would boost the borders earlier. Our war with Babylon will last at least 17 more turns if we don't want to break our alliances, so the WW will kick in 7 turns from now. We have a large enough military. Therefore yes, build some cathedrals. When we get the SC they will keep 6 citizens content. :)

Ok. No research, keep the granary, trade for fur and build cathedrals when I can. Got it.

I will play at the end of the afternoon or early tonight.

One last thing: If TGLib gives us theo or inv, then I will start research as it is unlikely TGLib will gives us PP or Gunpowder (education usually comes first).

We are in our 4th round of play when most teams are in their 2nd round. At that speed, we should get a 20K victory in about 1 month and I do not see how most teams could get there within about 3 months unless they play faster! It is going to take some time before we know how good we are. If I remember correctly, we were starting to catch up on the other teams around 500BC. I wonder how well we are doing right now. Leptis Minor surely is giving us a big boost. Considering the small continents, I wonder if some teams decided to go for a conquest victory.

We are in our 4th round of play when most teams are in their 2nd round. At that speed, we should get a 20K victory in about 1 month and I do not see how most teams could get there within about 3 months unless they play faster! It is going to take some time before we know how good we are. If I remember correctly, we were starting to catch up on the other teams around 500BC. I wonder how well we are doing right now. Leptis Minor surely is giving us a big boost. Considering the small continents, I wonder if some teams decided to go for a conquest victory.
I am happy that we are playing quickly, as I tend to lose interest in games that plod along slowly. :) We currently have the highest score (you can't see the other scores, but we are first in the list), but we have played many more turns than most teams. Our score will only improve now that we have 5 well spaced cities. Territory plays a large part in determining the score, and we probably had less territory than most teams in the early game due to the close placement of Carthage and Utica.

On the flip side, we probably got our 20K city set up comparitively early. We should not forget that we are looking for the earliest possible 20K win, not the highest scoring win. With our slow start score-wise, we are probably not going to win the green laurel, so we should concentrate on the gold one.

Another thing to keep mind regarding score management is the reward for happy citizens, so if the gold reserves are adequate don't forget to crank up the lux slider, since the score is an average across all the turns and the greater the number of happy citizens for the longer term the higher the score. See SGOTM2 TEam Kuningas for verification.

Teams going for a conquest win will hit a big speed bump once they have to fight across the sea as with only 5 cities it takes a long time to build an adequate invasion force.

We are in our 4th round of play when most teams are in their 2nd round. At that speed, we should get a 20K victory in about 1 month and I do not see how most teams could get there within about 3 months unless they play faster! It is going to take some time before we know how good we are. If I remember correctly, we were starting to catch up on the other teams around 500BC. I wonder how well we are doing right now. Leptis Minor surely is giving us a big boost. Considering the small continents, I wonder if some teams decided to go for a conquest victory.

It may be that the variety of the turns slows down some too. We might be able to increase to 15 or 20 turns each in another couple of rounds.

550AD (preturn) - :sleep:

IBT
Leptis Minor: Granary -> Courthouse
Leptis Magna: Archer->Cathedral
560AD (1)
Worker joins Theveste.
1 NuMerc leaves the western front for Theveste to keep a garrison when the upgraded warriors will leave.
IBT
Scandinavia wants an alliance against the Celts. I refuse. I do not want to prolong wars between the small countries.
Hippo: Horse -> Cathedral
570AD (2)
Horse kills barb warrior and spots camp.
IBT
Utica completes Sun Tzu. :) -> cathedral
Theveste: Library -> warrior
580AD (3)
Disperse barb camp. Start moving out so another camp can appear. There is a barb galley close.
Disband 3 archers in Utica. Rush a market for 340g. Switch to cathedral. Disband 8 archers. Utica can build the 20sh left by himself. :cool:
No wonders are being built anywhere.
IBT
The Indian galley and the barb galley are moving toward each other.
Leptis Minor expands and my trade advisor tells me I can now build MedInf.
Utica: Cathedral -> Palace.
Theveste: Warrior -> Cathedral. Am I on a holy quest to build that many cathedrals?
590AD (4)
Upgrade 4 warriors to MedInf for 240g.
IBT
We loose our supply of horses & furs.
600AD (5)
Finish the mountain road suggested by Zakharov.
Move MedInf near Syracuse.
610AD (6)
DoW on Rome.
Move 10 units next to Syracuse.
Kill spear with horse, transforming the settler into 2 slaves.
Kill archer near Syracuse
Destroy Lutetia losing a horse. I risked the archer hoping it would get killed damaging a spear, but he won!
MM Leptis Minor to labour the wool instead of BG.
Trade wool to Persia for furs + 3g.
IBT
A settler, escorted by spear + archer appear near Pisae, just out of reach.
620AD (7)
Bombardment of Syracuse is completely useless.
Destroy Syracuse without losses, one MedInf promoted.
I could drop lux to 0%, but since we have +103gpt, I will keep it at 10% for a better score.
630AD
Rome got caught in my little ambush. They moved 2 settlers + 2 spear + archer within range of our MedInfs. We kill them, promoting another MedInf.
Kill archer with horse.
IBT
Rome drop an archer-settler pair near the wounded MedInfs.
Leptis Minor: Courthouse -> Market
Leptis Magna: Cathedral -> MedInf (to disband when we build an university in Utica.)
640AD (9)
Kill archer defending settler with ¾ MedInf.
Kill 2 archers using NuMercs.
IBT
Babylonians are building SC.
Barbs appears.
650AD
NuMerc kills the archer after a horse failed.

Only the Babylonians have theology. Our alliance against them finishes in 7t and the palace prebuild in 8t. If no other civ learns it by then, we have one turn to trade with them without damaging our rep or losing our prebuild.

The Celts have conquered a few Scandinavian cities who only have 2 left.

There is a barb camp just out of sight of the 2 horses near Hippo.

We now have 15 slaves, including 8 newly enroled! :devil2:

Most of the MedInf are healing in Theveste, the catapults are in Leptis Minor.

Score: 440
Jason: 583

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_AD0650_01.SAV)

Roster:
TimBentley - up next
MOTH - on deck
Bede - reading something
Zakharov - pondering about the meaning of live.
fbouthil - just played

Got it. I will play tomorrow. Here are some thoughts:

Should I start research once I learn theology? Greece will probably buy theology from Babylon sometime soon. I'm not sure whether Greece is researching theology or invention. We don't have that much to build and we still have a leader. I think research on printing press would be worth it, since that is usually ignored by the AI.

It looks like there isn't really anything else worth doing in the Roman war other than getting promotions. Any other Roman cities that should be razed?

Once astronomy is learned, it looks like the passage between Rome and Scandinavia will be crossed relatively soon, meaning our contact monopoly will end. Of course, it will be a little while before we have to worry about that.

I will start mining some tiles near Leptis Magna once it reaches size 12. Actually, I'll mine some unused tiles before then if our workers are bored.

Good turns fbouthil :goodjob: I see some nice looking elite units in our ranks. :)

Only the Babylonians have theology. Our alliance against them finishes in 7t and the palace prebuild in 8t. If no other civ learns it by then, we have one turn to trade with them without damaging our rep or losing our prebuild.
It has been a long time since any of those civs learned a new tech, so I am optimistic that we will have a wonder to build before the Palace prebuild is done. The AI civs don't like keeping a tech monopoly, they will trade it around at the first opportunity which will only benefit us. Whether we get Invention or Theology first, we should rush the available wonder and prebuild for the other.

With the leader, we should easily be able to get both the SC and Leo's, though another leader won't hurt. ;)

Scandinavia wants an alliance against the Celts. I refuse. I do not want to prolong wars between the small countries.
You were right to refuse this as we have an alliance with both of them against the Babylonians. Am I right in thinking an alliance with one against the other would break the first alliance, giving us a rep hit? :confused:

Should I start research once I learn theology? Greece will probably buy theology from Babylon sometime soon. I'm not sure whether Greece is researching theology or invention. We don't have that much to build and we still have a leader. I think research on printing press would be worth it, since that is usually ignored by the AI.
You are right about PP, the AI always ignores it. We will need it to open up the tech path to get Shakespeare's Theatre. (8 culture, 400 shields :thumbsup: ).

It looks like there isn't really anything else worth doing in the Roman war other than getting promotions. Any other Roman cities that should be razed?
I think we should leave the towns as they are. If we hit them too hard then they will not produce enough future units for us to farm leaders from. By all means pick off units in the open, making sure to use only veterans until we use the leader in Utica. We should continue this war for a few more turns yet. I would like a couple of turns of leader farming before signing peace.

Once astronomy is learned, it looks like the passage between Rome and Scandinavia will be crossed relatively soon, meaning our contact monopoly will end. Of course, it will be a little while before we have to worry about that.
I'm not worried about losing our contact monopoly. We have weakened the Romans and have our five cities in place. After we get the SC and Leo's built, we will want the tech pace to pick up anyway.

I will start mining some tiles near Leptis Magna once it reaches size 12. Actually, I'll mine some unused tiles before then if our workers are bored.
Try to use all of the river tiles for the commerce bonus. I think we need to think about clearing the jungle if our workers have nothing better to do, so that we can station military units on those tiles without the risk of disease. At the very least you should put a road through the jungle to give us a more direct route between LMOZ1 and Leptis Minor. :)

EDIT: I've just looked at the save again. There is one unhappy citizen in Utica. Should we increase the lux rate to 20% to give us a WLTKD? This will reduce corruption and waste, as well as helping us with our score.

EDIT: I've just looked at the save again. There is one unhappy citizen in Utica. Should we increase the lux rate to 20% to give us a WLTKD? This will reduce corruption and waste, as well as helping us with our score.
WLTKD would reduce waste (commerce corruption is unaltered by WLTKD) in Utica from about 13% to about 8%, resulting in 21 shields per turn instead of 20. However, that would shorten the palace prebuild from 8 turns to 7 turns, so I'll wait in case we are unable to obtain a useful technology from the Great Library and have to get it from Babylon, and reconsider it once a technology is obtained.

I would go for the WLKTD in Utica and if you need to slow the build send a citizen fishing.

I have a feeling that the contentment component is going to be critical in getting the best possible score at the finish line.

I agree with increasing lux and researching PP. I would suggest researching gunpowder if we get inv before theo as education often comes in before gunpowder (but not always).

I realized I forgot to disband the barracks we built before Sun Tzu. It does not give much but it is better than nothing.

Since we have a lot of slaves, we could also build a second ivory colony to trade with Persia for horses when we need them (we can wait until we have chivalry at least).

650(0)-MM Hippo for more gold

IBT-LMOZ1 MDI->MDI
Greece starts Leonardo's Workshop

660(1)-four people know invention, three know theology
horses each kill a barb
MM Theveste for food surplus, more gold
using the leader now would gain a bit of culture and only slow Utica by 5 turns, also allowing a chance for another leader
switch Utica to marketplace

IBT-Celts want alliance against Vikings, no way
learn theology, invention
Utica market->Sistine Chapel
Greece starts Sistine Chapel
Babylon starts LW

670(2)-rush Sistine Chapel
bombard a Roman archer twice, kill it with an elite NuMerc
MM Hippo for more food
set science to 50%, research to printing press
MM Theveste for more food

IBT-Utica celebrates WLTKD
Utica Sistine Chapel->Leonardo's Workshop
LMOZ1 MDI->MDI
Theveste cathedral->MDI
Hippo cathedral->colosseum (for WLTKD)
Babylon starts LW

680(3)-10% lux is needed for Leptis Minor
MM Leptis Minor for more gold

IBT-Leptis Minor market->cathedral
build wings on both side of palace

690(4)-MM Leptis Minor for cathedral in 7 (fastest) and most gold possible

IBT-Leptis Magna MDI->MDI
for some reason Theveste stopped WLTKD and didn't finish MDI

700(5)-so I maximize food in Theveste
increase food and money in Hippo
bombard archer twice, elite MDI kills it

IBT-Theveste MDI->MDI, WLTKD starts

710(6)-bombard archer three times, elite MDI gets a leader who will rush LW
I took a screenshot, but accidentally wrote over it
bombard archer twice, vet MDI kills it
switch Utica to courthouse

IBT-Celts, Vikings sign peace
Utica courthouse->wealth
LMOZ1 MDI->colosseum (for WLTKD without lux)
Ottomans start LW

720(7)-cancel MAs with Vikings and Celts
now Babylon won't sign peace

IBT-Babylon, Germany sign MA against us
Theveste MDI->colosseum (for WLTKD without lux)

730(8)-Rush Leonardo's Workshop in Utica
MM Hippo for more gold

IBT-Utica LW->palace

740(9)-elite MDI (edit: actually a NuMerc) kills archer and...
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/secondleader.JPG
MM Hippo for more food

IBT-learn printing press, research set to gunpowder at 0%
Hippo colosseum->MDI

750(10)-three catapults bombard archer, vet MDI kills it

Here is the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_AD0750_01.SAV).

Notes: Ottomans don't know Vikings or Celts (and others)
Persia doesn't know Rome (and others)
All others know those you would expect
I think AI is more likely to research gunpowder than education, but somebody might be researching education
Babylon still won't accept straight peace
Rome still won't talk
If cities have a cathedral and a colosseum, they will have WLTKD with lux at 0%
I didn't read fbouthil's post and have not sold barracks
Horsemen by barb camp are waiting for more barbs to appear (or will they not when you see the camp?)

Roster:
MOTH - up
Bede - on deck
Zakharov
fbouthil
TimBentley - just played, gone from 10/8-10/12

Nicely done, sir. We are on a roll....

Well I got my wish didn't I? All three wonders in about 20 turns. :thumbsup:

Any set of turns with a leader are good turns, but two leaders! [dance]

Something tells me our latest leader is already preparing the foundations of J.S.Bach's Cathedral. :D

As soon as we get Education from the GLib, we should max research Music Theory straight away. Once Bach's is rushed, we can start a prebuild for Copernicus' Observatory. From Astronomy, I say we should go banking, democracy and free artistry for Shakespeare's Theatre. Only then should we go back down to the bottom of the tech tree.

With all the elite units that we have, maybe we should keep the war with Rome going as long as we can. Provided we keep trading with Persia for furs, we should have the ability to keep our people happy.

There are only three IA wonders, so we need to get as many of the MA ones as we can. That means more leaders. :)

We should also think about loading Utica up with units for disband-rushing a university. What are the best units for this purpose now that we no longer have archers?

EDIT: I just had a look at the save. I see we already have a number of Med. Inf. in Utica. :cool:

We should also think about loading Utica up with units for disband-rushing a university. What are the best units for this purpose now that we no longer have archers?
Medieval infantry work well; I believe no shields are wasted and they are disbanded for 10 shields. In addition, both LMOZ1 and Theveste can build a MDI in two turns.

I was just thinking that there aren't many 20K attempts where wealth is built in the 20K city. Of course, in this case, the palace prebuild's shields were salvaged before rushing LW and there was an extra turn in which nothing could be built.

:drool: 2 leaders! :drool: I feel like Homer Simpson in front of a donut!

I agree with Zakharov's research plan. I thought we would be building Copernicus (with a good prebuild) before rushing Bach, but research seems to be so slow that I think we should go for Bach first.

Unless you find a better usage for the workers, I would like to build a road in every hill and mountain in our territory so that saltpeter is connected automatically if we are lucky (!) enough to have it in our territory. Well, it is not really a question of luck but rather a choice from mad-bax and I doubt we can have saltpeter without trading for it, but just in case.

I doubt we will need another leader within 20t so I think it may be a good time to make peace with Rome so we can redeclare war on the turn the leader is consummed. We can actually get 13g, 2 slaves & 3 cities for peace, but I think we should accept only Cumae because its borders overlap Leptis Minor. Taking 3 Roman cities would make the romans too weak. Of course, we could also wait until we get a few more elite units, but we already have 5 elite units that did not give any leaders yet (a unit that gives a leader has to be upgraded before it can give another).

BTW, what should Utica be prebuilding right now? An university?

Here's my turns:

0-750 mm hippo for more gold.

IBT - Leptis Minor Cathedral>Colloseum, Hippo WLTKD

1-760 Merc vs Archer wins no promotion.

IBT - zzz

2-770 India will trade and has horses, 33 GPT, and 133G. They want a tech so I hold off. I give them spices and wool for 132G and 6GPT. Rome will talk and Babylon will talk but neither is a good deal.

IBT - India declares war on Persia. LMOZ1 Colloseum>MDI. Hippo MDI>MDI

3-780 Horse vs Barb wins no promo

IBT - Rome wants to talk. They will give 3 cities for peace. I think about it as we could build a second Army but say no. They then move archers and a galley to our area. Theveste Colleseum>MDI

4 - 790 Theveste MM for more gold and slower MDI since we are getting high for unit maintenence. MM Minor for +1 G. MM Utica to slow down Palace in exchange for gold (since we nearly have 200 shields for University now.) Kill a couple of archers, but no promos.

IBT - Rome drops of an archer near hippo. LMOZ1 MDI>MDI

5 - 800 Let the archer live for now.

IBT - Germans want peace for Invention - no Archer pillages a hill. Minor builds colloseum > Wealth. Hippo MDI>MDI.

:) :) We now have all citizens happy :) :)

6 - 810 Kill 2 archers, one promo.

IBT - Persians want alliance - no. LMOZ MDI>MDI Theveste MDI>Galley

7 - 820 Horse vs Archer promotes.

IBT - Archer moves in.

8 - 830 Arcger vs Archer promotes.

IBT - Greece demands contact with India - no and they back down. LMOZ1 MDI>MDI Hippo MDI>Galley

9 - 840 MDI vs Archer no promo. Greece has gunpowder - they want a lot.B

IBT - Babs talk still want stuff for peace. Theveste - Galley>Galley

10 850 - It takes 3 galleys near Theveste, but we sink a Roman galley. Another MDI promotes vs an Archer. An Merc doesnt promote.

Firaxis score of 507 - just behind India at 508.
Jason 671

Hamurabi just got Education and Gunpowder and still doesn't want easy peace. Greece also has Education and Gunpowder so we get these next turn.
Rome will now give us 3 cities and 2 workers. If we want to make a second Army this should let us do it. If we need 9 cities for Army #2 then take Pisae and then get the remaining 3 cities for peace.
Otto has gunpowder.
Persia fur deal can be cancelled and renegotiated if we want.
Germany is close to offering peace.

I was building a couple galleys as I wanted to kill the Roman ones floating around. I was using the workers to improve some land to make it easier to get around and to have mines in all the mountains for much later.

Can we use the "big picture" to cycle through the cities and get Universitys built right away? I don't remember if we get that or not with GL techs. We may want to move some Mercs into the cities as well to disband toward the Unis.

Rotation:
Bede - up
Zakarov - on deck
fbouthil
timbently
MOTH

the save is here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_AD0850_01.SAV)

Got it. Play tomorrow.

Concur with plan as outlined. Johann, then Willie.

Make nice with Rome.

By the way,
I welcome any constructive criticism on my play. I always do well in the early game and start falling apart once the game gets to this stage.

Looking back I see the following mistakes:
I shouldn't have switched Leptis Minor to Wealth as 2 more MDI would have meant 20 shields toward a University. 20 sheilds = 80 gold. Do to my switch to wealth I produced 5G and saved 8G in maintenance. The break even point is 40 turns for an MDI of rush savings vs maintenance. What is the next big capital expense after Unis and is this more than 40 turns away?

I should have built a harbor at Utica and then started the Uni pre-build. Having the leader stick around gives us some lee-way in the pre-build area and we will need the food once we have sanitation.

A few good things I did was to max out the size 12 production at Leptis Minor by building a couple of forests. I also got the road net extended some more. I also got 2 more Elite MDI, an Elite Horse, and an Elite Archer promoted during my turns.

I have looked at the save and have come up with a new plan.

The Palace prebuild is already past the 200 shields required for a university, so we will be wasting shields switching to that. We know that we will get education and gunpowder next turn, so we have a choice of researching astronomy, music theory and chemistry.

J.S.Bach's costs 600 shields and gives 6 culture/turn.
Copernicus' costs 400 shields and gives 4 culture/turn.

I therefore propose switching research to astronomy and using the Palace prebuild to get Copernicus' Observatory. If the Palace is due to complete before we get astronomy, then switch forest tiles to sea tiles in Utica. Once we get astronomy, switch to CO and move back to the forest and hill tiles.

Then, set research to Music Theory so that it is done 2 turns after CO in Utica. When CO is complete, disband-rush the university with the MDIs in one turn. Then on the following turn when we get Music Theory, use the leader to rush Bach's.

edit: This should all take no more than about 15 turns, which is too little time for the AI to beat us to any wonders.

We can then follow the research path of banking > democracy > free artistry, for Shakespeare's Theatre (which we can prebuild for).

The reasons for this plan are because:
1) I do not want to waste the excess shields in Utica on a university.
2) Bach's is a more efficient use of a leader rush (600 shields).

What do you guys think? :)

Some more thoughts:

The granary in Leptis Minor should be sold, saving 1gpt in upkeep. All barracks should also be sold.

Hippo and LMOZ1 should switch to a granary prebuild, then switch to a university next turn. Hippo and Leptis Minor can also switch to universities next turn. We need the research boost and our military is large enough already.

I agree with loading some of our units into our cities to disband towards universities. We do not need quite that many units. The first ones to go should be the elite* units, as they cannot produce leaders.

We should not feel we should end wars for the sake of it. If our people remain happy, then we should wait until we can get a favourable peace treaty. However, I think we should make peace with Rome for 20 turns, then redeclare war.

Persia and India have horses to trade, but I don't think we need them. Our island is small enough to defend with slow units, and I would rather get gold for research out of those two nations.

@MOTH, I like how you have spread the workers across our territory. This will allow us to hook up any possible saltpeter resource asap. :)

What is the next big capital expense after Unis and is this more than 40 turns away?
I would think banks (in cities other than Utica) would be next. That should be less than 40 turns away.

I don't think we need Rome to have less cities, but we could take their workers and their money.

I like Zakharov's plan. If I'm not mistaken, disbanding 18 MDIs in Utica would be enough for the university in one turn.

I would think banks (in cities other than Utica) would be next. That should be less than 40 turns away.

I like Zakharov's plan. If I'm not mistaken, disbanding 18 MDIs in Utica would be enough for the university in one turn.

I made a miscalculation in the break even point. I was talking about two MDIs being worth 20 shields and only costing 2 maintenance. They would actually cost 4 maintenance, so the break even point is 20 turns, not 40. The more expensive the unit the less critical the rounding loss and the longer until the break even point. How much are muskets anyway? We should probably start building them for future disbands instead (assuming we get Saltpeter).

I made a miscalculation in the break even point. I was talking about two MDIs being worth 20 shields and only costing 2 maintenance. They would actually cost 4 maintenance, so the break even point is 20 turns, not 40. The more expensive the unit the less critical the rounding loss and the longer until the break even point. How much are muskets anyway? We should probably start building them for future disbands instead (assuming we get Saltpeter).
Musketmen cost 60 shields (easily produced in 3 turns in LMOZ1 and Theveste, at least; haven't examined the spt of other cities). Banking probably can be obtained in more than 20 turns, but less than 30 turns. Also, the impact of the different build (ie wealth) has not been evaluated for your break even point. I may or may not consider this further later.

Okay, I've looked at the save and here are some thoughts:

Leptis Minor's laborers should be placed on the river when it is not building an improvement, since it already has more shields than it needs.

With one additional luxury, every citizen would be happy with the luxury slider turned off (until the discovery of steam power).

Now for some additional analysis of the break even point described by MOTH, assuming we can obtain saltpeter. I'll start with LMOZ1, since it's the easiest. A musketman can be built in 3 turns, or LMOZ1 can build wealth gaining 6 gold. The musketman can be disbanded for 15 shields, saving 60 gold. Therefore, if the musketman waits longer than 27 turns, wealth would be the more cost-efficient method.

Theveste would lose 6 possible gold by making 3-turn muskets rather than wealth (via laborer reallocation), so the break even point would be 24 turns.

Leptis Minor can get 9 gold from wealth in 3 turns, so the break even point would be 25.5 turns.

Hippo cannot currently build 3-turn muskets, but can get 2 gold from wealth. Currently, the break even point would be 26 turns. Once the hill is mined, I believe 3 gold could be lost making 3-turn muskets compared to weath, making the break even point 25.5 turns. Something doesn't seem right with these numbers.

I'm not sure what to conclude from this, but production directly to the improvement itself is obviously best.

I agree with what has been said before: build uni everywhere except Utica, slow down production in Utica and max research on astronomy to build Copernicus. Rush Uni with maces and Bach with GL. Make peace with Rome taking slaves & gold only.

At 60g per NuMerc upgrade to Musket, should we use NuMerc for disband rush and build Musket ourselves or upgrade them? I do not think we want to upgrade the elites that did not give any leaders, but the elite* and veteran can be upgraded.

Since we are at war with far away civs and they will have astronomy soon, should we have a better garrison in Utica? I am not counting the maces as they will disappear when uni is rushed.

I also suggest you want one turn before making peace with Rome, in case saltpeter is under or near Cumae.

RL intrusion today. Will post tomorrow 10/6 early evening.

So far so good, though no leaders for the next monument. Bach's built, building toward Copernicus now. Took the uni at Utica for the 4cpt some turns earlier, same as Copernicus.

Our 20K date is now 1854 BTW.

So far so good, though no leaders for the next monument. Bach's built, building toward Copernicus now. Took the uni at Utica for the 4cpt some turns earlier, same as Copernicus.
You didn't like my plan then? :(

Now for some additional analysis of the break even point described by MOTH, assuming we can obtain saltpeter. I'll start with LMOZ1, since it's the easiest. A musketman can be built in 3 turns, or LMOZ1 can build wealth gaining 6 gold. The musketman can be disbanded for 15 shields, saving 60 gold. Therefore, if the musketman waits longer than 27 turns, wealth would be the more cost-efficient method.

Theveste would lose 6 possible gold by making 3-turn muskets rather than wealth (via laborer reallocation), so the break even point would be 24 turns.

Leptis Minor can get 9 gold from wealth in 3 turns, so the break even point would be 25.5 turns.

Hippo cannot currently build 3-turn muskets, but can get 2 gold from wealth. Currently, the break even point would be 26 turns. Once the hill is mined, I believe 3 gold could be lost making 3-turn muskets compared to weath, making the break even point 25.5 turns. Something doesn't seem right with these numbers.
Have you forgotten the 2gpt military upkeep for each unit built? Over 20 something turns for say 10 muskets, an extra 400 gold would be spent on support. :crazyeye:

Concur with plan as outlined. Johann, then Willie.
RL intrusion today. Will post tomorrow 10/6 early evening.
Somehow, I have a very hard time understanding Bede. :( What does Johann mean? And Willie? RL? 10/6? :confused:

Building uni faster seems a good idea since the AI is a very slow researcher. I guess I was too chicken about loosing one of the 2 wonders to think about it.

Our 20K date is now 1854 BTW.
:cool: Did you calculate this using our current cpt or are you using a tool of some kind? A tool would be much more precise since it could take into account the added cpt when buildings become 1000 years old.

Somehow, I have a very hard time understanding Bede. :( What does Johann mean? And Willie? RL? 10/6? :confused:
Johann = Johann Sebastian Bach, ie. J.S. Bach's Cathedral.
Willie = William Shakespeare, ie. Shakespeare's Theatre.
RL = real life.
10/6 = October 6th.
Well I assume this is what Bede meant. :)

Did you calculate this using our current cpt or are you using a tool of some kind? A tool would be much more precise since it could take into account the added cpt when buildings become 1000 years old.
I use Ainwood's CivAssist utility for a 20K prediction. I don't know if Bede uses a different utility.

Have you forgotten the 2gpt military upkeep for each unit built? Over 20 something turns for say 10 muskets, an extra 400 gold would be spent on support. :crazyeye:
Sorry, I didn't mention some of the stuff MOTH mentioned in his discussion of wealth vs. MDIs. If at a certain time, the decision was made whether to build wealth or a musketman in LMOZ1 for example, it would be worth it to build the musket if it would be disbanded in 27 turns or less. For wealth, it would make 6g and save 54g or less in upkeep. Disbanding the musket would save 60g in rushing. Thus, the break even point. What seemed strange is that producing 4-turn muskets in Hippo seemed to be better than 3-turn muskets.

Obviously, we qualify for this spoiler. On the maintenance thread, MOTH said he was thinking about writing our team summary so unless someone has a big urge to write it instead of MOTH, I say go for it MOTH! Keep us posted as we should not go to the spoiler thread until the team has posted his summary. Our summary will probably be very short since we cannot write about contacts with other continents.

comments to team:
As follows is a tentative post for the spoiler.

Comments, Edits? Is this level of detail good? Should I include more images? I think the timing works out well as the Forbidden Palace trick is just around the corner when we take Rome. I also didn't mention the blockade that we just setup. Maybe we should cut off at 150BC when we started Mono....

Did I include enough Discussion points of interest to Mad-bax:
1. City Placement.
2. Victory condition choice, and how to acheive it
3. Resource aquisition
4. Research methodology
5. Chosing between the Green and the Gold laurel awards.

START SPOILER POST:

[ptw] SGOTM4 Team Summary for spoiler 1 for team Bede

We decided that we would go for a 20K attempt and that we would aim for the Golden Laurels. With our graph on the early part of the team summary graphs perhaps we will also get the Wooden Spoons.

We spoted the Cow in the initial start so we moved the worker East to confirm and settled SE and founded Carthage. We first produced some warriors so that we could scout for a good 20K location.

At 3000BC we have 3 warriors, 2 workers, and a newly built settler looking for a 20K city location. We also had contacted Rome at this point. We get BW from Rome for Masonry.

Our initial research was set to writing in the hopes of trading for CB. Writing was going to take about 40 turns and there wasn't much we could do about it at this point. Over the years we will buy several early techs from Rome for Techs + G + GPT. On our own we research Writing, CB, Lit, CoL, Philo, Republic, Construction, and Poly. Great Library gives us: Mysticism and eventually some Middle Age techs.

For the 20K City location we decided that we would build Utica only 2 tiles from Carthage on the river and coast. We decided that Carthage would be a throw-away city and use it to produce settlers, workers, and some troops for disbanding purposes and we would get rid of Carthage when we had a good location for city #5.

Since it looked like we wouldn't have CB for a while we decided to start right in on Colossus as this would finish not long after we had CB. We also start looking for locations for cities 3, 4, 5 and the replacement of Carthage.

By 150BC we enter the Middle Ages but don't start researching a MA tech until 210AD. At 210AD we are nearly in position to attack Rome. Except for Pyramids and Oracle, we have built (are building HG) all AA wonders plus we built Heroic Epic. We have only recieved one great leader who became an army. We still only really have 4 out of our 5 cities as we will throw out Carthage once we have defeated the city of Rome.

Timeline:
2850 Utica (20K city) founded on the coast.

2550 - 30 We have essentially explored our entire continent.

2390 Found Leptis Magna

1675 - Build Colossus in Utica for the start to 20K!

1525 - Build Temple in Utica

1500 - The Southern Front
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/TeamBedeSGOTM4_1500BC.jpg

1400 Found Theveste in the South near the Romans.

1125 IBT - Rome declares war after being frustrated at our blocking moves. We get back some GPT we were paying them.

1100BC - A NuMerc kills a Roman Warrior and we enter our Golden Age. We have a few elites from killing barbs so we hope for a leader soon... We don't see any Roman Legions at this time as they have not hooked up their Iron yet! We eventually send an archer and Merc to sit on the Iron so Rome can't hook it up.

975BC Found Hippo in the north far enough away to greatly expand our territory once enough culture is present.

925BC - Build the Great Library in Utica!

825BC - Build Library in Utica

750BC Here is a picture of the Roman front:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bede750.JPG

530BC - Peace with the Romans so that we can use our Palace Pre-build for something. We get MM in exchange for peace and Lit. Pyramids and Oracle have been build overseas so Lighthouse is the only wonder we get to quickly.

510BC - Build the Great Lighthouse in Utica!
- Other continent Civ Galley shows up and GL teaches us Myst.

410BC - our first galleys start making contact with additional foriegn powers. We descend into anarchy.

370BC - We install a Republic government following a 2 turn anarchy.

210BC - Utica builds Great Wall of Carthage!

190BC - Rome declares war again when we ask them to leave our territory.

150BC - We research Polytheism and enter the Middle Ages.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/turn120.JPG
We start reseaching Monarchy so the timeline doesn't end for this spoiler yet.

130BC - Utica builds Colloseum

10BC - We get a Great Leader and build an Army so we can build Heroic Epic eventually. We have another Archer/Merc pillage team heading for the Roman iron and they see a Legion defending Rome.

50AD NuMerc Army kills a spear and we can now build Heroic Epic.

70AD Utica builds Heroic Epic!

150AD A Civ from the other continent builds a town near our Ivory :(

210AD Learn Monarchy and shut down research (start on Mono in forever). Hanging Gardens in 8 turns. We are prepared to march on Rome with a stack of death:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bedestackSP.jpg

I like the write up, but maybe it could use some more images. I think it would be best not to mention either the blockade trick or the FP trick. If the slower teams post their spoilers just after they qualify, they may still get some use from these tricks.

I'm not sure if the last few sentences (150BC - 210AD) still qualify as the ancient age. You haven't mentioned any middle age techs, units or resources though, so maybe mad-bax will let it stay. The siege of Rome is a good place to end the spoiler if it qualifies. :)

EDIT: You will probably have to adjust the minimap so that it blacks out all but our starting continent.

I put some questions in the maintenence thread on these points. I will als browse our thread for some other images to include.

EDIT: I have included several pictures from earlier posts.

My civilipedia tells me a university is 4cpt and Copernicus is 4cpt. So rather than delay the university for the wonder the shields are getting dumped for the 4cpt now, then research at max to Music Theory for Bach's, then on to Astrnomy for Copernicus. As I see it the math works this way: University 4cpt in 850, Bach's in 910 for 6cpt, so 10 cpt by 910, then Copernicus for another 4 in 1080 with the hopes of another leader to rush Shakespeare.

Making nice with the Romans is not in the cards right now as they have nothing to offer. It is time to do little troop training however.

Education and Gunpowder come in right on time, Utica gets its university and the science budget is raised to 100%. WLKTD will continue in all the towns.

1-860
Break up a barb camp. Start universities everywhere and an MDI at Utica. Research is towwards Music Theory at 100% due in 4 @-122 with 3448 in the bank.

We have saltpeter on a hill SE of Hippo, plus another spice and some more ivory that can be hooked up for trade bait.


Pick up 100g selling the Celts to the Persians and the Persians to the Vikings.

2-870
Bombard a couple of Roman cities just for the practice. Three vet NuMerc fail their promotion boards at Cumae attacking redlined spears. Two are beheaded for incompetence. Veteran MDI at Pisae kills his target but fails the boards.

3-880
Pull back from Cumae as there is no further point in carrying on that battle. Make one more try for promotion for MDI at Pisae, spear dies but no promotion.

4-890
India has taken a couple of Persian cities as Gandhi's treasury has taken a big boost. Relieve him of 140g of the money for contact with the Germans and the Celts, none of whom can do the others any good.

Romans send an archer within range of our catapults and vet NuMercs. Archer dies but we win no promotions.

5-900AD
Fail to win promotions attacking encroaching Roman archer. We can get three towns for peace but with no way to build an army hold off until MT finishes and Bach's is built.

6-910AD
Sell some extra ivory to the Persians for cash and terms 62g +5gpt which just happens to cover the deficit from studying Astronomy due in 11 turns.

Bach's finishes and Utica goes to placeholder for Copernicus.

7-920AD
Trying to set up to pick off some Roman archers for promotions. Kill two, but no promotions.

8-930
Roman archer boogies out of Neapolis and promotes vet MDI to elite.

9-940
Not much to report. Trolling for Romans and barbs.

10-950

Didn't feel comfortable disbanding military just yet and we can afford them at the current research rate. We could turn up the heat on the scientists just to open some more trade potential but selling luxes will increase the research pace elsewhere, when that might not be in our best interest. Chivalry is now on offer from more than one seller. Buying some horses from the Persians or Indians and building some horsemen for upgrade at some point is probably useful. Having only foot sloggers for skirmishing for leaders could be costly.

A couple of riverside grasslands could be forested at Leptis Minor if we feel like it, just to balance the food shields and get maximum commmerce/shields.

We have enough in the treasury to finish Astronomy and get to Free Artistry in about 25 turns and have cash in the bank. Continuing the war with Rome to catch an MGL is probably the fastest route to Shakespeare's Theatre.

I have to keep reminding myself that our objective is not to beat the AI but the other teams in the competition. The conclusion to my ponderings on this is that speed and concentration are the essence, and speed to victory is not the strongest attribute of a 20K culture game. We haven't missed any critical milestones that I can see so far but the next couple of sets should concentrate on farming leaders out of the Romans. I was less than successful in my attempts, only got one promotion from killing archers and spears and took some losses. Maybe some horsemen, then knights, would be more successful...

State of the Republic
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/TeamBedeSGOTM4_950AD.jpg

Roster check:
Zakarov - UP
fbouthil - on deck
timbently
MOTH
Bede

@Zak,
I re-wrote the plan without comment, my apologies, but the math seemed to work in favor of the university first and the shield waste was the equivalent of a 1/2 MDI. Apologies for my impatience and I will try to control the impulse in the future. You are making a far greater contibution here than I when it comes to thoughtful planning.

@Moth,
Nice write up. Concur that details of the FP and the blockade are not necessary in the spoiler. And just make sure to edit out the reference to the Indians and the mini-map.

The spoiler has now been updated in respect to Zak and Bede's comments.

Ok, I have got the save. I will look at it now and if I see nothing I am unsure of, I will play tonight.

@Zak, I re-wrote the plan without comment, my apologies, but the math seemed to work in favor of the university first and the shield waste was the equivalent of a 1/2 MDI. Apologies for my impatience and I will try to control the impulse in the future. You are making a far greater contibution here than I when it comes to thoughtful planning.
I came up with my plan on the basis that we were wasting shields. If you worked out that we could gain culture more quickly doing it your way then that is fine by me. We are shooting for a 20K win as early as possible, so culture is more important than shields. :)

Thanks for the praise about the planning. I have amazed even myself, as I would never put this kind of thought into a solo game. Playing the game ten turns at a time really forces me to step back and look at the bigger picture. Normally I would employ the 'just one more turn' philosophy. As I stated at the start of the thread, this is my first SG, and this is probably the most enjoyable game of civ I have had. :cool:

@MOTH, I read your questions in the maintenance thread, but didn't want to reply there. I think the intent of mad-bax's first two conditions:

1. Your team must be researching a middle age tech.
2. You must have the complete map of the starting landmass.

is that your game is currently at these points, not that the spoiler write up goes up to these points. The other teams can see we are now at 950AD so we obviously qualify. I believe you can include the Monarchy research time period as long as you make no mention of anything to do with the MA, which I don't think you have.

I think this is my shortest turnlog yet!

950(0)- Granary in Leptis Minor sold for 7g and a saving of 1gpt.
Science up to 60%, astronomy in 5. I want banking asap.

IBT- 'We love the general' in all cities.
Leptis Minor builds catapult > musket.

960(1)- Not much. I'm waiting for some Roman troops.

IBT- Celts and Babylon sign peace treaty.
2 Roman archers appear.

970(2)- Bombard an archer to 1hp, attack with elite archer - no leader.

IBT- LMOZ1 builds musket > muskets for the rest of my turns.
Hippo builds university > muskets for the rest of my turns.

980(3)- The second Roman archer bombed to 1hp, elite archer attacks - no leader.

IBT- Roman archer attacks vet NuMerc outside Cumae, 4/4 no promotion. I move these units to leave a hole in the defensive line. Leptis Minor is undefended and will draw their units towards it, so I can pick them off with elites instead of them attacking our vets.

Theveste builds musket > musket for the rest of my turns, Leptis Minor is the same.

990(4)- I disband a vet NuMerc in Leptis Minor to give a musket in 2 instead of 3.
Not much else.

IBT- Roman archer spotted.
Astronomy researched > Banking in 6 @ 70%, -77gpt.

1000(5)- Bomb archer, attack with elite archer - no leader.
Palace switched to Copernicus' in 9 turns.

IBT- Another Roman archer.

1010(6)- Bomb archer, attack with elite horseman - no leader.

IBT- Yet another archer.

1020(7)- Bomb archer, attack with elite archer - no leader.

IBT- Guess what?

1030(8)- Bomb archer, I'm having no luck with the archer, so I attack with an elite NuMerc - no leader.
I decide to upgrade the galley to a caravel for 10g.

India no longer have horses to trade?????

IBT- Hello Mr. Archer.

1040(9)- Bomb archer, attack with elite MDI - no leader.

IBT- Another one?

1050(10)- I fail to bomb the archer, so I will leave it up to fbouthil to destroy it. ;)

Score: 563 (1st, Greece has 559), Jason: 745

Here is the save:
1050AD SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_AD1050_01.SAV)

Notes:

Copernicus' Observatory in 4 turns. Utica culture 5631 @ 71/turn. Estimated 20K in 1854.

Banking in 1. All cities apart from Utica are building muskets. Change these to banks when they become available.

I have been disbanding vet NuMercs in Leptis Minor towards muskets. This was to cut down military support whilst updating our units.

Our military currently stands at 63 units, with 15 free. We are spending 96gpt on support.

I had 7 elite wins without a leader. :( I even resorted to using different units to see if my luck would change. :crazyeye:

As I mentioned, Leptis Minor is deliberately undefended. The AI will always move towards an open city instead of attacking units. Leave a gap in the line to allow them to move towards Leptis Minor, then pick them off with elites.

In the image below, you can see an archer I couldn't bomb. My group of 3 catapults (blue dot) were 4 tiles away, and the single catapult (green dot) missed. Instead of attacking at full health, I will let fbouthil bombard it next turn, as it is guaranteed to move one tile E if LM is undefended.

The red dot should always be occupied just in case they somehow get hold of horses.

Germany and Babylon will give us peace + chivalry for PP.

The deal with India (2 luxes for 6gpt) is still active even though 20 turns is up, but they are furious so we won't be able to renegotiate. I suggest leaving it as 6gpt is useful.

India no longer has horses to trade. At first I thought the AI was cheating and they had traded it with Rome even though we have a monopoly on Astronomy. Then I realised they were at war with Persia, so their supply has probably been cut. Even so, should we place 3 caravels on the sea squares to stop them trading with Rome in the future?

I felt unsatisfied with these turns as I didn't do much. I suppose there are stretches like this in a 5CC. I doubt we will see much action until other civs try settling on the edges of our island.

Roster:
fbouthil - up next
TimBentley - on deck
MOTH
Bede
Zakharov - just played

Here are the 3 sea squares that I suggest we should park a caravel on to prevent Rome from trading with India and Persia:

@MOTH: Nice story for the spoiler. I think it is long enough and does not need any more screenshots. :)

I will look at the game but it seems like my turns may be just as unevenful as those of Zakharov. It looks like a no brainer so I will play right now:

Once Utica finishes Copernicus, start a palace prebuild for Shakespeare.
Fish for leaders.
Research toward free artistry fast enough to get it just before the palace prebuild is finished (I doubt I can get free artistry in my 10t).
Build Banks. Maybe start a few caravels later for the sea blockade. No rush as no one has astronomy but us. No point in trading horse for now as we will be busy building banks for most of my 10t.


@Zakharov: Do not worry about not being able to get GL. With the HE, I think it is about 1/8 chances of getting GL so it is just a little bit of bad luck. We do not really need a GL right now. After Free Artistry, a GL would help as many techs enabling wonders are close.

Nice quiet turns.

On trading with India: go ahead and renegotiate. Even if they are furious selling luxuries at 6gpt is cheap at this stage and we can probably get more, if not from them from somebody else if we need it. Their attitude will not affect the price they are willing to pay. If they are shrinking in size due to the war with the Persians, the value may go down. But we could have other customers now that we have astronomy.

It may be time to load some boats with elites and go leader fishing elsewhere. Cats, muskets and MDI should do just fine for that purpose.

Once Utica finishes Copernicus, start a palace prebuild for Shakespeare.
Will you rush a bank before the Palace prebuild?

Maybe start a few caravels later for the sea blockade. No rush as no one has astronomy but us. No point in trading horse for now as we will be busy building banks for most of my 10t.
You only need two more caravels for the blockade. It will hold up until Navigation/Magnetism, so it should be good for a while. I agree with not needing horses. If we get Chivalry we can upgrade the 3 horses we have.

I would suggest disbanding a few NuMercs towards the banks. We could really use the saving on unit support. We have had our golden age, so NuMercs are not needed. The Romans will only have archers until they get nationalism, so we only need a few muskets for effective defence.

@Zakharov: Do not worry about not being able to get GL. With the HE, I think it is about 1/8 chances of getting GL so it is just a little bit of bad luck. We do not really need a GL right now. After Free Artistry, a GL would help as many techs enabling wonders are close.
Well I had 7 leaderless elite wins, so I am expecting you to get one when you take out that archer. :D

edit: I think the actual figure is 1/12. The base chance of a leader is 1/16 or 1/12 for militaristic civs. With the HE this increases to 1/12, or 1/8 for militaristic.

@Bede: Astronomy does not permit us to trade over ocean. We will need navigation or magnetism for that. Since Persia is getting bigger and India smaller, I will keep my deal with India, but may renegociate with Persia when the deals end.

@Zakharov: Ok, I will disband a few NuMercs. I will consider rushing a bank in Utica.

I have posted in the spoiler thread. I can still make edits if needed.

Well, those 10t showed I am not very good with deals. I do not think it has too much impact on the result of the game.

1050AD (preturn) - :sleep:

IBT
The archer goes next to Leptis Minor.
Research: Banking->Democracy at 70% in 8t, -89gpt (I calculate I have 12t after Copernicus to finish the palace prebuild)
4 oversea civs learn astronomy.
1060AD (1)
I read Zakharov post about disbanding NuMercs to get banks faster. The only thing I have to short-rush the bank in Utica is a granary. Since I do not want to disband any musketman, I need to bring for 26sh in disband. I move 4 NuMercs toward Utica.
Bombard and kill the archer.
Change productions to banks (except Utica).
Move 3 NuMercs next to Leptis Minor.
IBT - :sleep:

1070AD (2)
Disband 3 NuMercs in Leptis Minor to get the bank 1t earlier.
IBT
Scandinavia & Germany sign MA against us. Oups! I was toying with the idea of signing peace with Germany for contact with India but did not do it.
Germans start Copernicus.
1080AD (3) - :sleep:

IBT
Celt & Germany sign MA against us!
A roman archer appear.
Utica: Copernicus->Bank
Theveste borders expand.
1090AD (4)
Bombard and kill the archer.
Utica: disband 2 NuMercs, rush a granary, switch to bank, Disband 2 NuMercs & 6 mace. Oups! I lack 2sh. I have to disband a musketman. Will bring one from Leptis Magna.
Before Germany & Babylon gets more civs against us, I sign peace with them.
Peace with Germany: PP for chivalry, 105g & 6gpt.
Peace with Babylon: contact with 3 civs for 6g.
Trade with Persia: contact with Germany for 25g + 1gpt.
Trade with Greece: contact with India & Rome for 26g + 4gpt.
Trade with Ottoman: contact with Vikings & India for 31g
We are now only at -50gpt.
IBT
Leptis Minor: Bank->Musketmans
Utica: Bank->Palace
1100AD (5) - :sleep:

IBT
Another roman archer.
1110AD (6)
Kill the archer.
IBT
Leptis Magna: Bank->Musketmans
1120AD (7) - :sleep:

IBT
Research: Democracy->Free Artistry at 40% in 9t, +58gpt (just before end of palace prebuild)
Stay in republic government for now.
Theveste: Bank->Caravel
1130AD (8) - :sleep:

IBT
Hippo: Bank->Caravel
3 civs learn Chemistry
1140AD (9)
Chemistry can be bought for 1000g or banking. Pass for now.
IBT
Persia wants a MA against India: No
I remember I forgot to renegociate the ivory deal and look what Persia is willing to give for it: 2g! Oups! Another mistake! No Deal.
A Babylonian caravel appear off the E coast.
2 Roman archers appear.
Theveste: Caravel->Caravel

1150AD (10)
Kill an archer, bring 2 catapults near the other.

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_AD1150_01.SAV)

WW is starting to affect us. We love the general day has stopped in a few cities. We could make peace with Rome & Scandinavia and probably Celt next turn. I thought we should fish until we get a leader out of the romans, but Rome brought only a few archers, maybe we can let him rebuild his forces. They got invention at some point so they are building longbowmen.

Maybe we can build a force to land on another continent as Bede suggested.

We can trade democracy for chemistry. Maybe it would convince a few civ not to redeclare war against us.

We could accelerate research.

Roster:
TimBentley - up next
MOTH - on deck
Bede
Zakharov
fbouthil - just played

Got it. I'll play tomorrow.

I think the research plan after free artistry should be ToG, so we will have to trade for chemistry. At the speed we are building wonders, I think we have a shot at Magellan afterward, but we should bother researching economics unless we have a leader to build Smith (or global research is very slow).

If we plan on making peace with Rome, we could take out the 3 cities that overlap Leptis Minor's border.

I just installed CivAssist and our new 20K victory date is 1840AD.

Some thoughts:

Hippo expands in 6 turns. This will bring the southernmost ivory colony within our borders. This will also reduce the amount of tundra not enclosed in our borders. We can place 6 units around the tundra coastline to prevent anyone from landing a settler there and stealing our ivory.

When we make peace with Rome, the only city I definitely want to take and abandon is Cumae. Leptis Minor's borders expand in 24 turns, so that spot will be covered. In the meantime, 2 units can block the coast from new settlers.

I'm not sure about destroying the other Roman cities. Removing them will increase our territory and therefore our score, but they won't be an effective leader source in the future. Of course, by then we will be able to use India or Persia for leader farming! ;)

Research: Democracy->Free Artistry at 40% in 9t, +58gpt (just before end of palace prebuild)
Stay in republic government for now.
This raises an interesting question. Do we want to switch to a Democracy or remain a Republic? I have listed some pros and cons:

Pros: Worker speed is increased.
Slightly less corruption and waste.
Cheaper unit support.

Cons: Anarchy period.
More war weariness.
Commerce bonus remains unchanged.

If we agree a switch to Democracy is worthwhile, it is probably best to wait until all of the MA wonders have been built so the anarchy period does not disrupt our wonder building. If we get to a point where all 5 cities have nothing to build, we could consider a switch.

I think the research plan after free artistry should be ToG, so we will have to trade for chemistry. At the speed we are building wonders, I think we have a shot at Magellan afterward, but we should bother researching economics unless we have a leader to build Smith (or global research is very slow).
Trading Democracy to the other civs may slow down the tech pace for a while, as they go through anarchy periods. Germany and Babylon currently have banking, so are probably researching Democracy at the moment. We could trade it to them first, getting Chemistry and maybe some gpt in return. Getting gpt turn from the AI will also slow down their research. (Note: All of the AI civs are currently in Republic governments.)

Regarding the remaining MA wonders, I have done a comparison:
Shakespeare's Theatre: 400 shields, 8cpt, 1 tech needed.
Smith's Trading Company: 600 shields, 3cpt, 1 tech.
Magellan's Expedition: 400 shields, 3cpt, 1 tech.
Newton's University: 400 shields, 6cpt, 3 techs.

We are currently 12 turns from Shakespeare's Theatre. From these numbers, Newton's is definitely the priority, so we should direct research towards that. The other two come from optional techs, so the AI may ignore them. Magellan's should be built before Smith's as it is 200 shields less for the same culture. A leader may allow us to get both.

With military tradition, the military academy becomes available. This will be useful as a prebuild, as it is 400 shields compared to 300 for the Palace. It is also a small wonder, so it will be available until we build it. :)

I don't think the 1 to 5 (or maybe 2 to 6) turns of anarchy are worth the switch to democracy. According to CivAssist (although ainwood says the corruption tab doesn't work perfectly), the biggest difference in corruption is Leptis Minor changing from 19% to 15%. 21gpt would be saved for unit costs with current troops. The faster workers are not needed until steam power. If we get enough leaders to rush a couple of wonders, the switch might be worth it.

Speaking of wonders, it appears (assuming no leaders) that we can pick up Magellan's Voyage before getting industrialization. The AI may research navigation for us.

Anyways, I'll research straight for ToG, buying chemistry, and I'll probably increase research some.

I've never been sure of this, but I don't think we get culture while in anarchy, so there would be a delay in our 20K date as well.

As far as research paths, the AI always seems to head down the path to Economics and start on Smith's before I do. The main problem is that this could allow them to cascade to future wonders. Lets just get a bunch of leaders and not worry about it ;)

I've never been sure of this, but I don't think we get culture while in anarchy, so there would be a delay in our 20K date as well.
I think you are right about not getting culture while in anarchy. Therefore, I suggest we do not switch to democracy.

The only good reason I see we could switch to democracy is the increase efficiency of workers, but we do not need it until we can build railroads. Even then, I am not sure about the switch.

As for GL, do not worry, it is TimBentley's turn so we are garantied to get lots of them! :D

1150(0)-notice saltpeter on the 1-tile mountain island
MM Hippo to finish caravel in 1
Not sure why we need more muskets or caravels (factories are the next improvement), so switch LMOZ1 and Theveste to wealth
sell democracy to Germany for chemistry, 94gpt, 203g
raise science to 70%

IBT-Leptis Minor musket->wealth, MM it for more gold
Hippo caravel->wealth, MM it for more gold

1160(1)-bombard longbowman twice, elite kills it
Horseman notices a Babylonian settler, MDI, longbowman in the northeast

IBT-Babylon demands Music Theory, 100g, declares war
longbowman causes horseman to retreat
Babylon founds Lagash
People love me

1170(2)-horseman dies to MDI

1180(3)-zzz

IBT-Babylon destroys Vikings
German pike, settler, drops off by ivory
learn free artistry, start on physics

1190(4)-switch Utica to Shakespeare's Theater
bombard Roman longbowman three times, elite NuMerc kills it
get Cumae, 3g, 2 workers for peace with Rome
abandon Cumae
elite MDI kills MDI in Lagash
switch LMOZ1 to MDI
for some reason, India seems to be able to trade with Rome
raise science to 90%

1200(5)-elite MDI kills longbowman to raze Lagash
switch LMOZ1 to musket

IBT-Greece drops off musket and settler in northeast

1210(6)-zzz

IBT-LMOZ1 musket->wealth

1220(7)-can lower research to 80%

IBT-Greece founds Herakleia

1230(8)-zzz

IBT-learn physics, start on Theory of Gravity

1240(9)-vet MDI kills Babylon longbowman

IBT-India, Persia sign peace
Greece demands Music Theory, 100g, accepts refusal

1250(10)-zzz

Here is the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_AD1250_01.SAV).

Notes: Shakespeare's Theater is due in 2 turns, Theory of Gravity is due in 5 turns
science could be set to 100% to get ToG in 4 turns, lux could be turned off regardless
Before Shakespeare's completes, free artistry should be sold to Germany. They are willing to pay all of their gold and gold per turn
You can destroy that pesky Greek city in 4 turns if you want
Musket builds could be started to disband for factories and coal plants
Consider gifting the scientific civs to the Industrial Age and getting their free technologies

I will be on fall break starting tomorrow until Tuesday, so I will not able to play (I might be able to comment). With the pace of this game, I'll have to be skipped at least once.

Roster:
MOTH - up
Bede - on deck
Zakharov
fbouthil
TimBentley - just played, skip 10/8-10/12

All right! There has been more action than I thought! I did not think Babylon was that suicidal (building a city just so we could raze it).

We still lack one caravel for the sea blockade (middle passage).

The Celts are willing to give 11g + 2gpt for peace.

I agree with researching toward IA until Newton is finished.

Gifting the scientific civ into IA seems a good idea, but selling them the tech would be better, of course. We should be able to buy one IA tech and then exchange it with the other free scientific IA tech. The only possible problem with it is that giving them ToG will enable them to start building a wonder that surely will be able to cascade to smith, magellan or universal suffrage.

Remember to send every worker and slaves near Utica at that point so it gets extra sh from railroads.

Does that means we do not want any war with Greece because they are scientific?

We surely do not want a war with Germany with the 100gpt they are paying us...

Wow, I did not expect our territory to be threatened just yet. At least we still have 1 ivory.

Considering this new danger to our shores, I think we should trade for horses and get some knights built. It will be much easier to defend the island with fast units.

We should research Metallurgy after ToG, as we can then upgrade our catapults to cannons.

The German city should be allowed to stay until our deal expires. If the Greeks want a fight however, then give them one.

The sea blockade is useless now we have peace with Rome. By the time we are at war with them again, they (or India/Persia) will be able to trade via the ocean. We may as well disband the caravels and save the support costs.

We need another unit NW of Leptis Minor to block the coastline.

The HG will double to 8cpt in 10 turns. With Shakespeare's at 8cpt, Utica will be producing 91cpt in 1300AD.

@TimBentley, I like that deal you got with the Germans. It will really help our science. :goodjob:

Note: From 1250 - 1750, each turn is now 5 years. Each set of ten turns therefore runs for 50 years now. This is for the next 100 turns.

I got it and will play this afternoon or this evening. I don't want to gift in the Sci civs until we get closer to having some of the MA wonders. I'd like to see us get Magelan's and get to MilTrad for the other pre-build.

What about Rome? Should we give them a ROP so that they can get settlers through to our North? I'd rather see backwards rome with little resources have the extra coast on our continent than having some of the more advanced civs landing good units on our shores.

It may be time to get the overseas catfight started again.

Germany against Greece would work to our advantage as we want to control the tech pace. Gifting the scientific into the IA will put pressure on our pre-builds and get the cascade going again. As we seem to have the cash to keep the Bunsen burners flaring brightly at least through Universal Suffrage the tech slinghsot won't help us that much and buying any tech from the other guys for gpt rather than MA optionals will just accelerate the tech pace.

We definitely need horses for eventual upgrade to cavalry as I expect to see more than spearmen in defense of the interlopers. Having MT for the MilAcad is useful as a prebuild as well.

I would expect that Heidelberg is building a library so the last ivory in the north is at risk though losing the lux should have little effect.

We can sell demo to India for horses + 19gpt + some gold, which sounds like a good deal, especially since we are preventing them to trade the horse to Rome (Persia does not have astronomy to trade with Rome). We can probably get another 6gpt in the demo deal if we cancel the current deal with India. It would free a few lux that we could trade oversea soon.

I agree with starting an oversea war, especially if we can get Germany on our side. Since Germany has been at war with us in the past, I would not be too surprised if Babylon brought Germany against us if we do not bring Germany to our side first.

@Bede: You are probably correct when you say Heidelburg is building culture since it is getting cultural pressure from us.

I would not disband the caravel unless we are certain we will never want to raze a few Persian cities in hope of gaining GL.

We can MM Leptis Minor to give an extra science by laboring the lake instead of the cow.

I agree with stoking up a war between Germany and Greece. The obvious ally is Germany as they are giving us 100gpt currently which we don't want to lose.

What about Rome? Should we give them a ROP so that they can get settlers through to our North? I'd rather see backwards rome with little resources have the extra coast on our continent than having some of the more advanced civs landing good units on our shores.
Fully agreed here. It will be much easier to keep Rome's wings clipped than having to deal with one of the world powers. :ar15: The ROP will be fine as we have roaded every tile, so we will not get any annoying roadblocks.

the red sox game might be over soon and I can play without the big distraction. Right now it is 6-6 in the bottom of the 8th.

0-1250 Re-nogotiate deals with India and trade: Democracy for Horses, 25 GPT, 4 G
Trade with Rome: ROP, Spices for 5 GPT, 1G, ROP
Get Peace with Babylon: Peace for Peace, 2 GPT
Get Peace with Celts: Peace for Peace, 4 GPT, 8G
Trade with Babylon Democracy for 63 GPT, 8 G
Trade with Celts: Theology for 2 GPT, 3G
MM for slightly more beakers in Theveste, L.Minor, and Utica
100% science for ToG in 4.
Knights in 3, 4, 5, 5 - I'm not worrying about maxing production on the two in 5.

IBT - Roman Settler pair heads north. RedSox sweep Angels. My wife gets lost going to a show and I spend a 1/2 hour giving directions.

1-1255 zzz

IBT - Sheakespeare's Theater is built in Utica. Our palace is expanded - 2nd floors on both wings.

2-1260 adjust sliders

IBT - L.Minor - Knight>Knight

3-1265 zzz

IBT - We Learn ToG and Switch Utica to Newton's University in 15. Magnetism in 6. I realized I forgot to trade with Germany before Shakes was done :(

4-1270 zzz

IBT - Germans renew peace. Roman Settler founds city near our Wool colony. It could also get Iron on expansion, so we will have to wipe it out once the ROP deal runs out. Theveste and Hippo - Knight>Knight

5-1275 Time to take care of the greeks. Open an Embassy in Berlin. Berlin is size 12 and 18SPT. MA vs Greece costs Physics as they have a ROP with Greece.

IBT - Ottomons and Germany sign MA vs Greece. Greek Caravel sinks attacking something. L.Minor Knight>Knight

6-1280 1 attack- Elite Horse vs Reg Musket wins but no leader and we raze the Greek town. No more Greeks on our continent. Siwthc a couple cities to Caravels so we can go hunting Greeks.

7-1285 zzz

IBT - Germany and Babylon sign peace. 2 Carvels and a Knight are built and I switch to wealth.

8-1290 zzz

9-1295 Adjust sliders.

IBT We learn Magnetism and start Metalurgy in 5.

10-1300 zzz

Situation:
Leptis Minor will expand in 4 turns linking our borders and freeing up some coastal watchers. Utica will hit 10000 culture in 21 or 22 turns. The Carvel in the North needs to move south and pick up more troops. There are a couple of elites around there. The caravel in the South is loaded with 3 Knights and heading for Greece. Most of the workers are parked near Utica.

Science is currently at 90% for a GPT loss, but that should be better after we make some trades.

We can now trade over the ocean, so there are lots of trade deals to be made. Germany will give us lots of GPT for tech again.

Firaxis: 638
Jason: 845

The save is here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bede_SG004_AD1300_01.SAV)

Rotation:
Bede - up
Zakharov - on deck
fbouthil
TimBentley - skip 10/8-10/12
MOTH - just played

I just checked the save and our new 20K date is 1818AD! :D

Lots of deals are possible:
Ottomans is willing to give 2 lux + 21gpt + 30g for democracy.
Germany is willing to give lux + 56gpt for ToG or Magnetism. (I prefer Magnetism so they cannot start a wonder).
Celts give about as much for a lux or a tech, around 5gpt.
India is willing to give 50g + 19gpt for physics.
Persia and Babylon are not willing to give gpt.

We will finish Newton in 9t and we can prebuild a palace for 12t. Metallurgy will be researched in 5t, and navigation in 5 more turns, which leaves us with 11t to research something else. How about researching SP before navigation? I do not know how long it will take to research it, but if it is 10t or less, then we could start railroading and build the other wonders faster.

I am not exactly sure what MOTH expects to do with 3 knights against Greece. Knights vs musketmen are not particularly good. With twice that much knights, I would say we could go against Greek cities. Maybe the idea is to disconnect the horse near Ottoman's borders and then wait inside Ottoman territory to pick the Greeks MDI? Anyway, at the speed we are building wonders, we may not even need GL to build every MA wonders (it would still be faster with GL).

I've taken a look at the save.

Hopefully that German town will flip to us, so we can take it and abandon it. If not then we should raze it as soon as our deal expires, otherwise we will lose our ivory when the border expands.

Unless we are planning a mass invasion, 5 caravels is overkill. As I said before, the sea blockade doesn't work anymore. We will be better off with a couple of galleons instead (although personally I don't think we need any ships).

Why are there 3 knights heading to Greece? They are veterans, so by the time we get a leader from any of them, it will be too late to ship it back. (There is no point in getting them promoted to elite as we will have cavs before too long). We should take advantage of the knights' speed to allow us to defend our island with less units.

We are currently paying 94gpt on unit support. I have looked at our military to see where we can make savings. We are currently supporting:
2 workers
2 archers (1 elite, 1 elite*)
2 horsemen (1 vet, 1 elite)
16 muskets (16 vet)
7 knights (7 vet)
1 army
9 NuMercs (3 vet, 3 elite, 3 in army)
8 MDI (4 vet, 3 elite, 1 elite*)
10 catapults
5 caravels

We should disband:
1 elite* archer
4 vet and 1 elite* MDI
3 vet NuMercs
3-5 caravels
1 army (inc. 3 NuMercs)

This will save 32 - 36 gpt which can be spent elsewhere. The vet horse should be upgraded to a knight. That is 8 knights, so if we build 7 more, then 15 should be plenty to defend our territory. Overall these moves would save us 18 - 22 gpt, depending on how many ships we keep.

Is 8 elite units too many? If so then we could also disband the archer and NuMercs.

When we get metallurgy the catapults should be upgraded to cannons. This should cost 200g for 10 of them.

I don't like that new Roman town. It needs to go as soon as our ROP deal expires. :ar15:

Got it.

Will play tonight if I can but may have troubling uploading log and save until late tomorrow as the DSL is not running right.

1300
Disbanding troops can wait until we have something meaningful to build, like factories and we are not short of cash and trading opportunities.

Replace the Persian furs for wool with Indian furs for spices.

1305
India joins Germany against the Greeks.

And everybody in the world learns Metallurgy.

1310
Recall the knight-laden caravels

Bismarck wants to extort wool. Nope.

1315-1335
Not much of interest other than some lucrative map dealing and we now have a full picture of the world. The Greeks land a longbow at Heidelberg which kills a German defender and then is in turn killed by an elite MDI but no promotion.

1340
Trade the Celts Democracy for silks, Navigation and all their money.

Trade wool to Germany for Incense and their treasury 27g.

Newton's complete. Utica starts on Magellan's.

1350
Trade Persia Democracy for horses and his treasury.

We can trade Babylon ToG for 90gpt and 48g.
Or to Germany for 30gpt and 69g.
Physics to the Turk for 17gpt and 76g.
Magnetism to India for 58gpt and 47g.

Utica is building Magellan's as a prebuild for Universal Suffrage. At the current spending rate we are ~10 turns from Industrialization. Or we could detour through Economics for Smith's Trading should somebody research it for us.

Our 20K date is now 1806.

Firaxis score: 663
Jason score: 878

There is a large force ready to deal the Romans what they deserve at Caesaraugusta and covering the approaches to Leptis Minor.

I think we should build Magellan instead of USuffrage for now. Magellan is 400sh for 3cpt and USuffrage 800sh for 4cpt.

Once it is finished, in a little bit less than 16t because of the RRoads, then rush a factory & coal plant. At that point, we should try to get Smith and switch to USuffrage if we miss it. Smith is as good as USuffrage in term of sh/cpt at 600sh for 3cpt. At that point, Utica should have about 60shpt so it should be able to build Smith in 10t or so.

Utica is a little bit less protected than I would like. If Greece decides to land troops next to it, we can only bring 1 knight there in 1t. I suggest bringing 1 musket from Zak#1. We will also need a few more units in Utica to disband so we can rush the factory and the coal plant in 1t each.

Remember to use elites as much as possible when attacking Rome. If we get one very soon, we could use it to rush Magellan, and get a head start on Smith. If we have a good start on Magellan, then we could wait to rush Smith or USuffrage. I would prefer Smith as we are pretty sure to get USuffrage and at that point it will take only 2 more turns to build USuffrage instead of Smith.

@Bede: How much of a head start do the other civs have on Magellan? BTW, excellent position to attack Rome! :goodjob:

Got it. I will play tomorrow so I can wait for any comment from other team members. We get Steam Power in three turns. Depending on coal location, I may stop and ask for opinions.

Disbanding troops can wait until we have something meaningful to build, like factories and we are not short of cash and trading opportunities.
Fair point. I didn't realise we had so much cash (2000+) when I suggested the disbands.

Our alliance with Germany against Greece ends in 5. I will negotiate peace when the time comes.

Nice attack force surrounding the Romans. :D Should I go all out to remove them from our island, or should I leave a couple of the small towns for leader farming? During the war I will leave Leptis Minor undefended to make sure they don't attack veteran units. I will of course cancel the ROP deal before declaring war.

We should not be making per turn deals with Germany, as we will want to remove Heidelburg before it expands and swallows our ivory.

There are two civs building Magellan's, the Ottomans and Persians. The Persians are currently in anarchy, so they have no chance of beating us. The Ottoman city is size 11, so I doubt it could beat Utica. Should I investigate the city?

I think we should build Magellan instead of USuffrage for now. Magellan is 400sh for 3cpt and USuffrage 800sh for 4cpt.

Once it is finished, in a little bit less than 16t because of the RRoads, then rush a factory & coal plant. At that point, we should try to get Smith and switch to USuffrage if we miss it. Smith is as good as USuffrage in term of sh/cpt at 600sh for 3cpt. At that point, Utica should have about 60shpt so it should be able to build Smith in 10t or so.

I was going to say the same thing. I would rather get Magellan's and Smith's than just USuffrage. Hopefully we will get a leader. ;)

Instead of Wealth, I will start spitting out workers to join when we build hospitals.

Good news (I think) from the spoiler thread. 5 Teams have posted in the spoiler thread now. I think we are in good shape for our 20K target. 2 other teams are also going for 20K: tao and Xteam.

Tao got a great leader between 550BC and 390BC, so their Heroic Epic will be earlier. They became a republic in 310BC and entered the middle ages in 90BC. They stopped research after republic. They list culture for 20K in order with no dates: temple, colossus, GL, GLH, Library, Heroic Epic, and Cathedral. I would guess that their 20K date would be similiar to ours because of the earlier Heroic Epic. Getting GW and all the early MA wonders should give us the bump.

Xteam is also goign for 20K and has a nice story. THeir 20K city is listed on the East Coast. Their first culture was GL in 975BC followedd by a temple and started a library. We had collosus, a temple, and GL by 925BC and a library shortly thereafter. In 775BC Rome gave up 3 cities and they switched to FP in their 20K city. 750BC found them with contacts with the other continent. They started research on republic in 875 but doesn't say when they finished. They entered the MA in 150BC. I would say that they are behind us as far as the 20K date goes, but the FP will help in the long run due to decreased waste and the additional culture.

As far as Firaxis score, we are gaining on both of these teams but this time includes our Golden Age. Its not clear if either team has had a GA yet. I'm was going to guess that Xteam had their GA happening between 1500 and 1250 as they had a 32 pt Firaxis bump, but they don't list a war until 900BC.

From 1000 to 750 we gained 28. Tao gained 26 and Xteam gained 25.
From 750 to 550 we gained 29. Tao gained 26 and Xteam gained 29.

As for other teams:
Ivan doesn't know what they are going for. They are barely outpacing our score from 1000-550.
Offa is going for Conquest. We are outpacing them in 1000-550

No other team has submitted a spoiler yet. We are outpacing every team that has submitted in both 1000 and 550.