Rome is having a very hard time rebuilding a second defender. We probably need to consider a second leader farming war. How does the team feel about a leader farming war with India?

We could probably do the same thing with Greece once our 13 turn deal runs out.

Pre-flight – Everything looks good. I change one citizen in one city. You guys really know how to manage things.

IBT – Music=>banking (due in 8)

1255 AD – Bach’s is due in 26. I think we’ll need some more leader fishing. Since we need a barracks in Oea. I spend 60g rushing the temple there.

IBT – Leptis, Hippo: settler=> knight
Oea: temple=>barracks

1260 AD – Nada

IBT – Carthage: knight=>knight
1265
1270
1275 – Upgrade two knights.
1280 Upgrade another knight

IBT – Carthage, Leptis, Hippo: knight=>knight
Oea: barracks=>market

1285
1290
IBT – Banking=>democracy
1295 – Rome finally has a second defender. We now have an elite LB.

I’m going to stop there. If the team decides to start a war with India we’ll need to move our galley out of Indian waters before declaring. If we decide to go leader fishing with India (I think we should) Let’s keep the Indian town around and fish for leaders like we’re doing at Pisae.

After Action – Let’s road and mine Caesar’s tiles so he can build spears quicker. Hippo and Leptis are managed to grow. I’ve been clearing the jungle to the east of Oea. Someday nice cleared lands might come in handy.

I also think we should declare on Greece when our latest gpt deal is up.

Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bugsy_SG004_AD1295_01.SAV

Roster:

Bugs – Just played
R&L – Up
Bedhead – On deck
G-man
Denyd

Lookin good, Bugs. I'll take it tonight. :)

The cats would shell Pisa and if there was a second unit, then they'd try to redline both. Then the LB's would kill the first unit and let the second one heal to be attacked once there were again two units there. If we kill all of the Pisa defenders, Rome is gone.

Thanks, Denyd. Seems like overkill, but will obviously work.

We might be able to get Copernicus, but if someone else gets Music Theory, there is no way for us to get both without an GL.

I didn't see us going for Copernicus, I was just wondering what else is out there that might fall when it goes.

What would be best for us is to have someone quickly complete Copernicus, then all the other pre-builds would die. Then have us get close (< 4 turns) to completing Bach and be able to trade it for Metallurgy & Astronomy. Then be able to start Shakespeare as soon as Bach finishes.

Finishing off Rome and starting on India is fine with me. With Astronomy available, we could start seeing more visiting ships looking for new land to settle, so once those "visiting workers" are done improving for Oea, we should send them to start lining the northern coast. We can probably form a line of units on the coasts to slow down landings between Oea and Carthage.

We can probably finish Bach sooner if we switch from coastal to mountain tiles with our workers. It would mean starving off a couple of people, but Carthage could replace them workers.

I would use the workers to line the edges of the Mutton Mountains. We won't want any AI landings there. The flat land landings would be just fine.

I also think we'll want a lot more catapults, spread them around for reaction to landings.

got it.......

I'm reluctant to start issues with India, as a review of F8 shows that we are #'s 2 & 3 respectively. The Celts are a distant 4th. Unless we get drastically lucky with leaders, which I’m loath to expect ;), issues between us will only serve to strengthen Greece further. A paltry few leaders for wonders, while at the same time, driving the 1st & 3rd largest powers together against us seems counterproductive at best.

Also, as a 5CC 20K, we were looking at a win by being the tech broker, and maybe lux broker. I'm hard put to think that we could win a military campaign against the 2 of them, especially given the number of landings that we'd have to expect. Then again, if we're looking to jump up the chart, then risks must be taken. Given the risk magnitude, the reward better be BIG. I will follow the team's wishes, but don't see this as wise while everyone else (per F4) is annoyed or furious.

I will hold off from playing tonight, awaiting further discussion from the team.

This is just my opinion, so please tear it up, if it furthers our debate and decision making process.

War with India

Pros: Chance for leaders. Slow them down.
Cons: Landings

War with Greece

Pros: slow them down.
Cons: Landings

So in both cases landings are our concern. Look at the frequency of landing in that Roman fiasco called SGOTM 3. The entire world landed about once every three-four turns... usually in the same spot. If we control where the AI can land by putting our slaves along the mountains and around our ivory colonies, I think we can farm for leaders with India and Greece.

If we do that, we may want to kill the Romans and have one less AI to worry about.

Please tear this idea up.

I don't think they'll land much in the S, except for colonizing. I'd expect most of the landings in our core. Last I checked, we had plenty of defensive troops (enough that Denyd said we had too many), but I don't recall much of an offensive force in the core. If we move what we have in the S up to counterstrike in the core, then we're not leader farming. What you suggest sounds OK, but let keep brainstorming.

OK here is another idea. We encourage the AI to land on the flatlands by keeping our workers in the mountains.

1. Wipe out the Romans, it will take forever to get a leader that way.
2. We position our cats in stacks of three or four along the coast, say every five or six tiles. We place a two or three knights with each stack. In theory the AI would have to land within striking distance of one of those mini-stacks =>bombard and kill and hope for a leader.
3. We will want to complete the jungle clearing down by Oea and station units on any hills on the coast. The hills NE of Carthage come to mind.
4. I think it will take the Indians and the Greeks a while before they are ready to make a landing. They will usually gather at least two vessels, one to escort, one to transport. That will give us enough time to build up some nice stacks around the coastline.

I agree that Rome had outlived their usefulness.

We could join India against Persia, maybe even landing a small force to grab a luxury over there. A couple of caravels with knights could probably take a city over there (we'd have to give up either Hippo or Leptis however). Taking Arbela would give us horses & a furs (after 1st culture expansion). Besides it's always fun to whack the X-man.

However, I'm not sure what we'll be able to do about Greece. Alexander has gotten quite large and while he currently trails on tech, with no wars to distract him, he'll soon be catching up.

While I like the plan of stationing knights and waiting for attacks, moving the battle site off our island might be the best option.

Off island - second that!

OK - I'll whack Rome, and start building a fleet & force. Will leave off India.

One more quick thing, if I remember correctly there's a Persian LB running around our island, leave him alone and hope he kills the Indian city SW of Oea. Let's try to keep this island to ourselves as long as possible.

I don't think we'd want to disband one of our high producing cities for one on the other continent. I'd have to think about that.

No, I wouldn't want a city over there, but rampaging and destruction is just fine. :D

I like rampaging and destructing. :D Ilearned it from my kids. Just leave a boat over there to bring back all the leaders. :rolleyes:

While I dislike abandoning one of our cities, having our own furs & horses would be a nice bit of compensation.

I think we are in agreement that Rome is toast and Persia grew a big target.

R&L - any progress?

Playing. Trying to fix a M$ problem also.

Persian LB is no where to be seen.

Hey. Rather than park a boat to bring the leaders back, how about taking a settler so that we can build a city to allow formation of an army, and then disband in the same turn? Will this work?

1295 – 0
Nothing to change.
Furious – Romans, Persians, Celts, Vikings
Annoyed – Babylonians, Greeks, Indians, Ottomans
Hey, aren’t we popular! :D
Note that Persians & Indians are not currently at war.

IBT: Indian caravel lands a settler & an elephant 4N of Oea.

1300 – 1
@Pisae, cats go 2/3 taking spear to red, 4/5 LB -0 kills spear & Romans, and captures Pisae. Nothing to sell of, so abandon.
MM cities, including Utica to knock Bachs from 17T down to 12T using food shortages.
Move some other units N.
Notice that Greeks have a city, Brempalonica 5SE of Oea.
Box in the Indians.

IBT: Persia renegotiates furs > we sell ivory for furs, 1gpt + 5g.
Indians found xxxx. Indian galleys on E side also, must move to protect colonies.
Carthage knight > knight in 5.
Oea riots > clown. Der volk add a second story to the left wing.

1305 – 2
:yawn:

IBT: Annoyed Osman wants to buy ROP for 1gpt – no.
Leptis knight > galley in 3, Hippo knight > galley in 3.

1310 – 3
At the moment, no one could be bought into an MA versus Greece.
IMHO, Babylon and Sogut (So Good. Yummm!) will be absorbed by Greece in the next 40-60 turns. Greece certainly looks to be on a runaway.
Hyderabad, S of Oea, drops 3 > 1 pumps out a settler.
MM Utica to Bachs in 13 at min starvation, so saved 2T.
India & Greece now up Astronomy & Metallurgy. Persia up Astronomy. Others down.
Move to protect landings.

IBT: nothing.

1315 – 4
MM Utica to zero growth, Bachs in 13, so gained nothing, but lost 2 stored food. – :weed:. Sitting with 2 stored food.
Leave research on Democracy in 12T @ 60%, move lux to 10%, and drop clown in Oea, taking 1T off market.
Gift Chivalry to Celts and Vikings, taking Viks to Annoyed, but leaving Celts at furious.
See Indian settler pair 3SE of Hyderabad.

IBT: WLTG day started in Carthage. Chittagong founded on ruins in far S.

1320 – 5
Oea reconnected by road to capital.

IBT: Carthage knight > knight, Leptis galley > galley, Hippo galley > galley. Oea expands.

1325 – 6
:sleep:

IBT: Oea market > court in 6.
Indians & Greeks begin Bachs! We lose our horse supply.

1330 – 7
Reset trade with India our ivory for their horses + 1gpt +2g. Our net -41gpt.
Now a cascade risk on Bachs.
Investigate: Bangalore > Cops due in 27, growth in
Knossos > Cops due in 10, growth in 2
Arbela > Cops in 23, growth in 34
We have Bachs due in 10, so Greece can get Cops without a problem for us, but if he changes to Bachs, then we’re sunk without starvation building. Carthage will need to convert to workers.

back and can take my spot after bedhead

There shouldn't be any problem getting Bach's. Copernicus' is 400 shields, Bach's is 600 shields, so even with growth Greece won't get Bach's faster than our 10 turns. Or is there some other problem that I am not seeing?

Bed is up! Shake's should be our next target.

Oh, I wasn't sure that RowAndLive was done. And still wondering what the wonder problem is with Greece.

Oh, I wasn't sure that RowAndLive was done. And still wondering what the wonder problem is with Greece.
i don't know either. you're notes on wonder shield cost are correct so i don't know what the problem really is.

:blush: Sorry. I completely forgot about the shield cost.... :banghead:
Will finish tonight.

Well, someone noted that I am the 20k guru. How true that is I am still not sure, but I do have shield costs for all culture producing improvement memorized, as you can check the civilopedia for their costs only so many times before they finally start to stick with you. And I have a number of abandoned 20k HoF attempts.

Actually, will post save now. I need some sleep.

Okay, I'll go ahead and play some odd number of turns. I need a break from putting off writing personal statements for college applications.

1330 AD (0) - Did a quick (well, supposed to be, but it took longer than expected) check of the numbers that RowAndLive provided, just to make sure there was no way we could nab both Copernicus and Bach, but we'd miss Bach by 6. Even though I've been reading, I am sort of unclear on what direction we are heading. India has three cities on our continent, we don't we go ahead and attack them instead of Persia? We have a lot of active units, and I don't really know what to do with them.

IT - Do not renew wool deal with Persia, so we are free to invade once we have enough galleys to make a decent landing.

1335 AD (1) - Join a worker to Leptis so that it can make two turn galleys a few turns earlier.

IT - India learns Democracy. Hmm.

1340 AD (2) - Galleys abuilding.

IT - Persians demand the wool that I wouldn't trade them earlier. Well, we would, but no. And then Xerxes says he don't want to be friends no more. Well, that saves the trouble of getting our galleys out of their waters before declaring.

1345 AD (3) - Eh.

IT - The Persian LB shows up, and will be terminated shortly.

1350 AD (4) - Desgraciadamente, no elites in the area. Still not good with Differential Naval Movement, though I checked out something in the GOTM page and know what it is and why we have it.

IT - Now the Vikings make a demand. Uh, no. They back down, but what would they have done anyway?

1355 AD (5) - Elite LB beats the Persian one from Chittagong, no leader. Drop science, Democracy in 2 turns.

1360 AD (6) - More mishaps with the galleys.

1365 AD (7) - Get Astronomy finally from the Ottomans for Democracy.

1370 AD (8) - Persia drops off a knight, but no harm done.

1375 AD (9) - Finally made a landing.

1380 AD (10) - Killed a Persian LB.

Recap: Nothing to report really. Watch for the Persian caravel off the east coast. Only one elite, a longbowman, along the east coast. Small stack on Perisan mainland.

ok bedhead, looks like another solid set :thumbsup: i think, based on your preturn notes, that taking on india would be better than persia and waiting for inane landings. if the team agrees, then i'll see what i can do about that. with all the cat's and 3 towns worth of units, it seems like a no brainer. i can keep rumbling along the persian coast for now till they beg for mercy and provide the propper sacrifice, then go for india (on our mainland) if that's preferred.
and, please, let's post more pic's of our land, so we can see what's going on. even if nothing seems to change, posting pic's helps get more insightful responses.

G-man's Avatar is from Dr. Seus's book the Lorax. And the quote I wrote is the discription of the "lorax" - Sorry, I thought it funny. I'll go away now.
obviously away last week and missed this :D
correct, thought the description of the lorax doesn't translate well to me (well, not yet anyways, lets see how i hold up after raising the kids :lol: ). i just feel the moral of the story is quite useful for a practicing engineer and his kids :)

Well it's one of my favorite Seus books (I'm also very fond of Horton hears a who and Yerttle the Turtle) And for what it's worth, yours is one of my favorite avatars on CFC.

So this is not complete spam. Good work here! I've enjoyed lurking this game.

I think we have some turns left on a deal with India. Once that is done, have at it.

G-man - up and got it
Denyd - On deck
Bugs
R&L
Bedhead - just played

Since moving all those Cats & LBs would be a pain, India is probably the simplest target. If we happen to get a GL, then Copernicus & Bach would both be possible. It would be nice to have all the Great Wonders off the board, so we'd have the only pre-build going when Shakespeare shows up.

Do we have any on going deals with India at the moment?

Just a little worry however, if I remember correctly the rankings are:
1. Greece
2. India
3. Carthage
4-? Everyone else

Do we want to weakend the only threat to a Greek runaway?
If yes, can we get to 20k before Greece launches?

Do we want to weakend the only threat to a Greek runaway?
If yes, can we get to 20k before Greece launches?
hurt persia enough during the remaining war and we may allow india to walk over her, gaining that entire island and making her stronger than the 3 towns that are bothering us.
i'm not worried about inane ptw ai landings by india after the 3 towns are removed. i'll look at the save but i'm pretty sure we can handle them.

I think we can handle India without many problems. Greece is a whole different story. Once we get to cavalry, we should be able to defend the island from most invasions.

When you get a chance, would someone check if it's possible for Greece to win via domination by taking all of the dirt except for our island.

I'm hoping a strong India (taking out Persia would be a start in that direction), might be able to provide a counterweight for Greece.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Bugs.jpg

Given the above, I'd take that as a yes.

Given the change in situation with India, I now concurr. It wouldn't hurt us to get rid of the Greek town on our island either.

Well, had the timing been right, I would have declared on India anyway. But since the team sort of sounded like they wanted to go after Persia, and then Xerxes made the demand, going along what was given to me seemed best.

As far as Greece goes, I don't think that we need to worry too much. We have done a very good job of keeping the tech pace slow. It is harder to make a prognostication in PTW, but I think as long as we can rush one MA wonder, Space Race won't be a problem. If not, it may be close. But we aren't going to do enough damage to India to remove them as a threat to Greece in the Modern Ages.

We should be able to get Bach & Shakespeare, Newton's is still in question. In the IA, TOE & Hoover should be easy and US will depend on Greece's bonus tech.

I agree with having Persia taken out by India might be a good idea. Let's set up an alliance with India against Persia first. Also taking out that Greek city is probably a good idea.

If we could get a leader, we would have a chance at all three.

How about we war on India first, and then after knocking off the 3 cities, and getting 3 leaders :rolleyes:, we make an MA with them versus Persia as part of the peace. Then again, Persia may make peace with them first.

Actually, I like that idea. I wouldn't make the MA part of the peace treaty though. When the MA is broken we will automatically be back at war.

Preflight check: Move some units to cutoff elephant/settler pair near Oea. MM a little to speed bank builds. MM Utica to keep it from starving this turn (0 food in the box), actually, I MM to maximize food (+6fpt)

IBT: Persia drops off 2 LB’s and a knight next to Utica, causing it to switch to something else which makes it starve to pop 11. Greece demands 27g and I decline, and they declare.

T1: 1385AD Rut-row, we only have 1 unit defending Utica.
Attack stack, knight dies to knight, taking off only 1 hp, Knight kills knight (1/4); Elite LB kills LB (2/5); vet LB kills LB (3/4).

Attack @ Tarsus: LB kills vet pike, knight dies to musket (1/3); knight kills musket (2/4); knight kills redlined musket (1/4) and the city is ours. Sell barracks and disband the city.

IBT: Carthage bank -> knight

T2: 1390AD Upgrade a galley and our last horseman.
Cat’s go 1 for three at Brempsomething. LB kills 3/3 Hoplite; knight kills 2/3 Hoplite and we take the city. Nothing to sell so just abandon.

Notice that Carthage has a full food box so I switch it to a worker. Also, spread workers out from Utica to prevent landings on our mountains. Since the RBC players of the group already discussed this (and we’re doing it near the ivory), I don’t see a problem with it. Do the same for the East coast near Oea.

IBT: Greece gets the Ottomans to MA vs us as well.
Carthage worker -> knight
Greeks finish Copernicus, Ottoman’s and Persian’s building Smith’s.

T3: 1395AD Move stuff around, continue pillaging Persia.

IBT: Ottomans and Scandanavia MA vs us. India building Smith’s and Magellan’s.

T4: 1400AD Pillage some more, drop off more units to cutoff Persia from the rest of the world.

Leptis Bank -> musket

T5: 1405AD 3 muskets + LB now in Utica. Slaves on the coast won’t stop zerks but it’s the best I can do for now. Pillaging in Persia continues, but they won’t part with a tech yet.

IBT: knight defends against Persian LB near …
Carthage knight -> knight, Hippo Bank -> knight

T6: 1410AD Sink a Persian Caravel with a galley. Pillage Persian horses.

IBT: Galley defends against Greek Caravel and promotes, India founds a 5th town to our S (not good).
Ottomans building Magellan’s.

T7: 1415AD More pillaging. MM Utica to get max shields with growth.
IBT: Lose a knight to Persian LB on the Persian Island and a galley to a Greek galley
Oea Univ -> bank

T8: 1420AD We can get Economics from Persia for Peace + gold but I want to hurt them some more, maybe get a better deal.

IBT: Greeks land 4 units near Carthage (hoplite and 3 MDI’s). See an Indian Cavalry.
Carthage Knight -> knight; Leptis Knight -> Knight

T9: 1425AD Pillage Persian Iron. Kill the Greek landing party using 2 Knights and 2 LB’s (1 elite), but no leader or promotions.
Greece will sign peace straight up but cannot buy anything good.

IBT: Ottoman’s offer peace if we chip in 60g but I decline. India demands TM and 25g and I cave.
Indian’s building Shakespeare’s.

T10: 1430AD Not much. A wounded knight is running into India Territory to flee Persian LB’s. Our weak stack is next to Arbela.
We can buy Nav for 8gpt and 116g if we get peace with Persia now.
We can get Peace with the other’s but the landing’s aren’t too bad and we could really use a Leader right now and some elite knights.
We should probably march on Persepolis or Antioch next and raze it. Maybe we will get something out of Persia yet. We are at war with everyone except India and Babylon.

Utica is at max production, losing 1fpt. Can finish Shakespears in approximately 14T. Looks like that Persian landing was more costly that I thought :( Hope I didn’t misplay that food buildup.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sgotm4-bugs-1430AD.jpg

Probably need to investigate whereever Gandhi is building Shake's. If it is going to be close maybe a preventive strike to pillage the surrounding tiles may be in order.

G-man - just played
denyd - up
Bugs - On deck
R&L
Bedhead

Going from my previous set, and the fact that G's talking about Shakespeare, I'm guessing that we succeeded in getting Bach's during bed_head's turns. What will we be researching next? If we get a free galley, I've been wanting to know for a while who has planted what on the island to our south.

we could probably get someone's wm in a peace deal which will work just as well. iirc, the island to the S is just a mountain with saltpeter, no buildable tiles. there's a wine island way to the S of persia but we need navigation or mag to get there.

we need a lot more troops to take on india, as they have cav's. we could probably get them off our island, but going after her wonder-building town is another story. we have more LB's than knights and we get our horses from India. maybe ally them vs Greece (but Ghandi would have nothing to do with that during my turns). edit: however, we must try to do it if they will beat us to Shakespear's.

Looks like it's back to me. If I understand correctly we're at war with everyone except India & Babylon (sounds a little like SGOTM3 shudder).

My goal then is get peace with everyone ASAP, investigate the Shakespeare's Theatre build and see if we'll be beaten and then declare on India, wipe out the 5 local cities. Then if there's no GL's during the local fighting and India would beat us to ST, we mount a caravel based invasion with knights & LB to at least pillage the local terrain around the wonder city, trying to get Persia & Greece as allies.

As for science, what's after free artistry?

My goal then is get peace with everyone ASAP, investigate the Shakespeare's Theatre build and see if we'll be beaten and then declare on India, wipe out the 5 local cities.
They want money for peace. we could get a discount on a tech if desired, but I thought if we hurt Persia some more (raze another town or 2), we could get them for free.
as far as the others are concerned, they all want money for peace and i'm not sure that these wars are really hurting much, as they give greece a break from taking over the other continent.

i have the caravel on the east coast so we could see landings in advance and move workers if a viking ship shows up.

Then if there's no GL's during the local fighting and India would beat us to ST, we mount a caravel based invasion with knights & LB to at least pillage the local terrain around the wonder city, trying to get Persia & Greece as allies.watch out for cavalry.

Do we know where the India SP is, if we could take them out early on we'd cut the numder of cavs & muskets we have to face?

Is India at war with anyone now? If not he's probably building lots of units for us. We could try to rope him in against Persia, but then we'd take a Rep hit when we declared. Any recent ETA on the 20K (now with Bach complete)?

Do we know where the India SP is, if we could take them out early on we'd cut the numder of cavs & muskets we have to face?

Is India at war with anyone now?
1 known salt is near a former persian town, near our retreating knight. not sure if they have more connected, but they are resourse rich so probably. Persia is sending out LB's, which are perfect leader bait. unfortunately, our knights are not promoting but hopefully, you get better luck.

edit: however, we must try to do it if they will beat us to Shakespear's.

To clarify, "it" refers to:
- DoW on India?
- Ally India versus Persia?

To clarify, "it" refers to:
- DoW on India?
- Ally India versus Persia?
attack india and screw up thier wonder build.

We need to investigate first. If Gandhi isn't even close, We won't have to go to war. If he is, then it is time for pillage-o-rama.

We need to investigate first. If Gandhi isn't even close, We won't have to go to war. If he is, then it is time for pillage-o-rama.
absolutely. that's why i had an "if" in there :)

Understood "if", just not "it". Now clear.

Don't have anything to add to the discussion that hasn't already been said.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bugsy_sg004_calc4.jpg

Turn Log 7

Turn 0 – 1430 AD – Reset to my personal preferences – Good news, India is building Shakespeare in Lahore, which has very few tiles of production (can’t afford to investigate it)

IBT: Lose 1 caravel and 1 caravel wins in battles with Greek Galleys – India ejects our troops – Since no war with India is imminent, trade Ivory to India for Furs + Horses + 12g + TM – Discover Free Artistry research Physics – Hippo Knight->Caravel – Greeks start Shakespeare in Athens

Turn 1 – 1435 AD – Maximize Utica to get Shakespeare in 10 (we’ll need to replace the soon to be starved Uticans) – Send Caravel around the horn – Assault on Arbela: Cats go 1 for 3 - Vet Knight loses to Vet Musket (1/4) – Vet Knight loses to Reg Musket (1/3) - Vet Knight (3/4) kills Reg Musket – Vet LB (2/4) kills Vet Musket – Vet Musket (3/4) kills Reg Musket and Arbela falls to us – Sell Harbor & Barracks in Arbela and abandon city – Send extra troops to Leptis for loading up – Sign peace with Ottoman trading Free Artistry + 100g for Navigation – Trade WM to Ottoman for WM + 7g

IBT: Celts offer peace for the mild tribute of Chemistry and I tell him where to go – A sleeping galley barely survives a Greek attack – Carthage Knight->Knight – Somehow Babylon got a settler next to Daccha

Turn 2 – 1440 AD – Persian invasion force moves to hills to heal – caravel upgraded & loaded with knights

IBT: Leptis Knight->Knight – Persia starts Shakespeare

Turn 3 – 1445 AD – First Caravel sets sail for Persia – Another is upgraded and loaded – Sign Peace with Vikings getting 18g + WM

IBT: Greeks land 3 MDI – Hippo Caravel->Knight

Turn 4 – 1450 AD – Elite LB (4/5) kills Greek MDI – Vet LB (3/4) kills Greek MDI – Vet Knight (2/4) kills Greek MDI – Second Caravel sails to Persia – another is upgraded and loaded

IBT: Three Persian LBs come calling on our invasion force – Swap WM to Hammy for WM + 5g – New caravel is sunk but takes a Greek one with him and redlines another – Greeks land 1 Hoplite & 1 MDI – Carthage knight->worker – Madras builds Magellan’s Voyage – Greeks switch to Smiths – Ottomans switch to Shakespeare

Turn 5 – 1455 AD – Land 3 more Knights in Persia – Elite LB (2/5) kills Reg Hoplite – Vet LB ( 2/4) kills Vet MDI

IBT: Persians back off – Carthage Worker->Knight

Turn 6 – 1460 AD – Land 5 more knights & 1 cat in Persia – Physics shows up on the table

IBT: Leptis Knight->Knight – Oea Bank->Cathedral

Turn 7 – 1465 AD – Cats go 2 for 3 in Persia – Vet Knight (2/4) kills Vet MDI – Vet Knight (4/4) kills LB – Vet Knight (1/4) kills LB – Vet Knight (3/4) kill LB - Vet Knight (5/5) kills LB and promotes

IBT: Not much

Turn 8 – 1470 AD – Troops advance on Susa

IBT: Lose a knight to Persia LB – Greeks land a single cavalry – Hippo Knight-Knight

Turn 9 – 1475 AD – Vet LB loses to Vet Cav (4/4) – Vet LB (2/4) kills Vet Cavalry – Elite Knight (4/5) kills LB

IBT: Carthage Knight->Worker

Turn 10 – 1480 AD – Assault on Susa: Vet Knight loses to Reg Musket (1/3) – Vet Knight (1/4) retreats from Reg Musket (2/3) – Vet Knight (1/4) retreats from Reg Musket (2/3) – Vet Knight (1/4) retreats from Reg Musket (2/3) – Vet Knight (2/4) kills Reg Musket – Vet Knight (1/4) retreats from Reg Musket (2/3) – Vet Knight (4/4) kills Reg Musket – Vet Knight loses to Reg Musket (2/4) – Elite Knight (2/5) defeats Vet Musket and takes Susa and Mago (a Great Leader is born)

I’m going to leave the game as it stands the next player will need to move the GL and sell off the improvements in Susa before abandoning the city – I goofed by not keeping a caravel nearby to transport him. I think he’s probably best saved for Newton’s – Persia will give Metallurgy, Economics & Physics for Peace at the moment and we should probably make that deal. I’d also sign peace with Greece rather than risk the GL during transit to Utica. There is a worker about to complete in Carthage that should be joined to Utica. Shakespeare is due in 4 turns (3 after this turn ends) and we should check out Athens completion date once we sign peace.

I did not submit the save, so the next player can submit at the end of the turn or just submit when they finish.

nice work denyd [dance]

Very nicely played! :clap: Also, nice catch on not submitting - I'd hate to be told we lost the variant due to an administrative detail.

I have it. I'll try and get it played today. Nice work getting the leader Denyd! :goodjob:

Having the GL gives us a couple of options.

We should probably sign peace with Persia getting Economics, Physics & Metallurgy. All the AI's are probably going for Magnetism, so we've got a chance to get to TOG first. Once Shakespeare is complete, we can either use Magoo to rush Smith's or save him for Newton's. We've also got a chance to sign peace with Greece & the Celts for no cost. As a precautionary measure we should probably sign with with the Greeks to be sure Magoo can safely cross to the homeland. We also have the research decision after the Persian trade of Magnetism, TOG & Military Tradition. Once Smith's & Shakespeare are complete, the cascades will end if TOG is not yet available, which might give us the chance to get Smith, Shakespeare & Newton if we uses Magoo for Smith and try to get Newton via a palace pre-build.

So far I've seen one Greek Cavalry so far, but none from anyone else. It's probably not a bad idea to have India squish what's left of Persia & Greece take out the Ottomans. That would mean two less Scientific AI before the age change happens and two less free techs. We do not want to get into a tech race with Greece at this point. We should probably hope for an Indian vs Greece War and get on Greece's side to reclaim the rest of our island. Once we sign peace with Greece & Persia, we'll need to bring our troops home and let India fill in the gaps.

Once Smith's & Shakespeare are complete, the cascades will end if TOG is not yet available, which might give us the chance to get Smith, Shakespeare & Newton if we uses Magoo for Smith and try to get Newton via a palace pre-build.

this is exactly how i was thinking. grab smith's and let the cascade crash against Magellan's. smith's will be a nice addition and the cascade could work well as magellans is 200 shields less, just hope a bunch of those AI builds are in coastal cities. Newtons will help greatly for the ToE -> Hoovers slingshot in the IA, hence the dancing :) (note, i realize US is better culturewise and should be our next prebuild after Newtons).

India already grabbed Magellan's, so if we get Shakespeare & Smith's they'll have a lot of very expensive universities & banks unless the AI builds Military Academy (no army victory = no MA).

Pre-flight – 1480 AD – Sell off improvements in Susa for 17g, then abandon it. I check to see if we have an MA against Persia. None. I dial up X-man, drag him to the peace table, we get economics, physics, metallurgy, 67g, 7 gpt & WM for peace.
I drag Alex to the peace table and get 6gpt, 1g & WM out of him. He has Mil Tradition, but I couldn’t get it for any price.
I drag Brennus to the peace table and get 5g & WM out of him.

Check out how much our WM is worth, and find we can get some decent cash for it.

WM sales: Celts give us silks & 1gpt. Vikings give 13g, 2gpt & WM. Persia is broke. Babs give us 1gpt, 4g & WM. Ottomans give 34G & WM. Greeks give 2gpt. Indians give 1G & TM.

So all that funds a 20% increase in science. We’re going for ToG @ 60%, due in 15 turns.

IBT – Gandhi asks us to leave.
Carthage: worker=>knight
Leptis: knight=>knight

1. 1485 AD – Load the leader and set up to get him back. Save and upload to the server. India now has magnetism.
2. 1490 AD – Join the new worker to Utica which gets us Shakes next turn. Magoo is now in Utica.

IBT –
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4_-_Shakespeare.jpg
Select Smith’s. Everyone cascades to Smith’s, but no one builds it. It is ours!

3. 1495 AD – Magoo hurry’s the Smith build.

IBT –
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4_-_Smiths.jpg
Start a pre-build in Utica
Hippo: knight=>knight

Ahhhh! Greeks start Newton’s :eek:

4. 1500 AD – It is being built in Athens. We may be in trouble. In fact, I know we’re in trouble. There is no way we’ll be able to beat Alex to Newton’s, not with our pre-build just starting. India has a musket next to Oea. I ask Gandhi to leave. It isn’t an ultimatum yet. I check out the state of our military and we only have one elite LB on the mainland, and none on the other side. A war wouldn’t be worth it. I think I really messed that one up. Getting Newton’s would have been 3 more cpt than Smith’s.

IBT – Carthage, Leptis: knight=>cannon

5. 1505 AD –

IBT – Oea: cathedral=>cannon

6. 1510 AD – Bump science up. Ferry two cats back to the mainland for upgrade, if we ever get enough cash.

IBT – Carthage: cannon=>cannon
Greeks build Newtons. :wallbash:

7. 1515 AD – I throttle the pre-build back to 60 turns. Our next target is US, which is four techs away. Magnetism is a “doubt it” for our entire economy. We might need to contemplate larceny.

IBT – Leptis: cannon=>cannon

8. 1520 AD

IBT – Carthage: cannon=>knight
Hippo: knight=>knight
Oea: cannon=>knight

9. 1525 AD

After Action – I’ll stop there since it is a nice round number. ToG is due in two, but Greece, India and the Ottomans know it. Magnetism is only known by the Indians. We need to figure out how we’re going to move forward tech-wise. Shall we consider larceny or self-research and trades?

I went back and checked the autosave when I built Smith’s with the leader and Greece did not know ToG yet. That was just some extremely lousy luck. :sad:

Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bugsy_SG004_AD1525_01.SAV

Roster Check

G-man
Denyd
Bugs - Just played
R&L - up
Bedhead (also known as JD) - On deck

JD - Can you do a 20K check?

bad timing, bad luck, whatever you want to call it, but you did the best you could with what you knew. good job :)

is bedhead in the process of getting thunderfall to change his username? :hmm:

Sorry team :sad:, I really hate to do this, but I'm going to need a skip.

I'm still playing R&L01, am up in Bede03, and my wife is having some outpatient surgery tomorrow. I'll be busy for the next 24-48.

Thanks.

I'll do the 20k check. Probably won't play right now, because we seem to be having trouble with the power (lots of trees in the area, first hard rain/hail of the year).

JD is what I go by in real life. Not changing my username. But my username isn't all that great. Can't be shortened very well. The only reason I use it is because it is the same as my yahoo e-mail address, which is the one I give when joining something online generally. And I wasn't sure how often I would be visiting the forum when I joined it, so I used something I wouldn't forget.

Why would our save have been submitted to anything?

Denyd didn't submit our save at the end of his turn. I think we need to submit it on a regular basis.

Shakespeare's and Smith's shaved 22 turns off.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bugsy_sg004_calc5.jpg

If we get Mil Tradition we could build the Mil Academy in Utica and then restart our pre-build. We could probably get Mil Tradition with ToG in two turns. Probably want to crank up the pre-build again.

I have never submitted my saves to anything, and didn't realize I should. I don't quite understand what is meant by "We could probably get Mil Tradition with ToG in two turns."

probably means trade ToG for MT :)

Oops, that would make sense. Should have realized.

After a quick look a my charts, what we've got left is during the Industrial Age

Military Academy: Need Military Tradition
Universal Suffrage: Need TOG (finish), Magnetism (trade??), Steam Power & Industrialization
Theory of Evolution: After US + Medicine, Electricity & Scientific Method
Hoover Dam: After TOE + Atomic Theory & Electronics (usual TOE Bonus)
Wall Street: After US + The Corporation + 5 Stock Exchanges
Intelligence: IA + Nationalism + Espionage (probably both traded for)
Pentagon: Might be able to arrange if timed with 4 city found/abandons

My suggestions is:
1. Complete research on TOG
2. Start US pre-build
3. Research Steam power
4. Research Industrialization
5. Switch pre-build to US and complete
6. Start MA pre-build
7. Trade Industrialization for Medicine/Military Tradition
8. Build MA
9. Start Army
10. Research Electricity
11. Research Scienfic Method start on Replaceable Parts
12. Switch Army to TOE
13. TOE completes getting Atomic Theory & Electronics
14. Trade AT for Nationalism & Espionage (2 trades)
15. Build Hoover Dam and start on Intelligence Agency

That's a pretty long term plan, but hopefully one we'll be able to complete. Since most of the bunched wonders are now complete, there's really no reason to get into any more wars, unless it's to slow someone else down. If we got another GL, what would the usage be (maybe hurry US or Hoover).

So you think we can get industrialization in 60 turns or less? If we can, I like Denyd's plan. If we can't, I think mil acad before US.

I think a war in the early to mid-IA may be called for to try and get a leader for Hoover.

Since we need three armies for the Pentagon, we'd have to own first 8 cities, build an army, disband three, then own 12 cities, build another army and disband seven. Sounds expensive. $$$


Edit - Please note - that to start an army with the mil acad, we'll have to disband our army.

Something new learned. I thought that you needed 4 cities for an army, so that the fifth city would allow the second army (not the 8th).

As for making it to Industrialization in 60, we need TOG, Magnet, Steam & Indust at 15 turns per (more since we're most of the way to TOG), that's 60. If we disband some of the older units (LB, Cats and a couple of caravels) we might be able to get back to 70%+ research. Also we've got a couple of tradeable luxes that should be able to add some GPT. I'm not sure we'll need to renew the horses deal from India next time (depending on if we have MT by then).

Edit - Please note - that to start an army with the mil acad, we'll have to disband our army.
well, it's 2 horses and pretty useless now, so we should disband it in a city to speed a build. maybe Oea needs more infrastructure?

Wow, just prepared a long post to counter denyd's plan, all based on the fact that Shakespeare's allows growth beyond 12. Oops. Now I am depressed. No more civ for me tonight.

R&L is probably still busy with his Mrs. Why don't we swap Bedhead & R&L.

Also please note, that my workload at work has increased significantly, and I'll have reduced internet time. I'll still be checking during the evenings.

Sorry I couldn't play tonight. I'll try to do it tomorrow right after school. If not, I may get sent home from work early and I'll just finish then.

no rush JD, i can pick it up anytime this weekend

1525 AD (0) - Made some MM changes to get cities to those magic shield numbers, like 18 and 20.

IT - Ugh. All the tech leaders know ToG.

1530 AD (1) - Moved a few units around.

1535 AD (2) - Renew trade deal with the Indians, and after learning ToG realize that Persia doesn't have it. Managed to get Magnetism from them for both Wool and Ivory on top of ToG. Greece and the Ottomans have Steam and Medicine, India just Medicine, and Persia learned Nationalism. Unsurprisingly, any offers would insult them. Not much that we can do, so put science at zero, netting 112gpt.

1540 AD (3) - I am wondering if I screwed something up last turn. We could buy Steam Power now, but it would be of no use as there is no one to trade it to. Maybe it is just that it is known well now that I can get it. Sell Spices to Greece for 30gpt.

1545 AD (4) - Wow, we have a lot of units. And can build them rather quickly. Knights in three or four turns everywhere.

1550 AD (5) - We can very nearly buy Nationalism, and then hopefully trade it for the other first teir IA techs.

1560 AD (7) - 142gpt plus 830 gets Nationalism from India. Surprised to only be able to get Steam Power from the Ottomans. I guess I just wasted a great deal of money. But we do have coal down by Oea and near the capital. But I guess there is just coal everywhere, as even the Ottomans and Persia have coal. Min run at Electricity.

1565 AD (8) - Oh, wow, I've made a huge mistake. I moved all the workers to start railroading, but didn't have units to fill all the holes. And the Indians had a settler waiting and will steal one of our wools, and with cultural expansion get another.

1570 AD (9) - Gifted Babylon into IA, albeit a bit late, but they didn't get a free tech.

1575 AD (10) - Ah, if only we had some money and could steal, and goad the Indians into declaring war. Not much to say other than railroad.

Have fun, grahamiam.

Edit: Oops, forgot save.

Picture of result of my mistake.

i guess it's time for the indian wars to begin :)

R&L gets to start the Indian wars. I thought we wanted to research towards industrialization? At the present pace, we'll lose our pre-build before we have a tech.

Palace prebuild finishes in 48. And we learn electricity in 37. So we should be able to trade that for industrialization. If not, we should still have enough cash to buy it. Or steal it.

I see on the minimap that the Ottos have gained a town. Did they build it, or was it someone else's, and if so, whose?

Good eyeballs R&L. That is something to look into.

from previous posts i and JD made, it may not be obvious, but R&L is up. i didn't see a got it from him and i wanted to make sure he knew :)

Now I see it. Got it. Should be able to play tomorrow night.

What a difference 2 turns makes.

I don't see where we last made peace with India, but we do have 10 turns left giving ivory for furs & horses, and 15 turns on giving 142gpt. Everyone already hates us, but at least they might still trade, just not currently. You guys will need to give me some quick coaching on what to start disbanding, because we're hemorraging big time.

IMHO, we are in a position where we can no longer afford our rep. since India will reinforce, and grow to take our remaining wool colony. DoW will give us back a whole lot of gpt, but we'll have no where to spend it, and will never get a lux trade again. As such, in order to survive, we will need to go into conquest mode ASAP, and plan on planting colonies to keep ourselves happy. As such, we'll need to drop one of our home cities and plant a port city on whichever landmass gets our colonies. BTW, we're also down by at least 2 techs to anyone that matters, including MT.

Does anyone have any bright ideas? (Other than dropping the variant :rolleyes: )

Let's not ruin our rep, but I think we do need to abandon the 20k and go for diplomacy instead. With all the teams going for 20k it isn't like we had a shot at whatever award anyway. It will mean we don't have to keep up with tech as long and that space race won't be an issue. As for current situation, we could stop building units and just build wealth, I guess. I don't think our current situation is so bad though that we need to break our deal. In fifteen turns, things will be a lot rosier, and our min run should pay off as well, in however many turns.

Just to clarify the money picture, we're at 25g -24gpt. We will begin losing our city improvements and army on the next IBT.

When I said drop the variant, I was thinking in terms of 5CC, not 20K. 20K is doable at this point. I don't understand what happened to make everyone hate us so much. When I had it 2 sets ago, everyone liked us, and diplomacy seemed easily do-able. Now Babs & Ottos are annoyed, and everyone else furious. Greece won't trade us any luxes, the Celts will provide incense(IIRC) but only if we give them banking, and we have nothing to sell since we lost the wool. Losing the wool is probably why we can't trade, but I still don't get the attitudes. Did we screw up on making peace with someone?

this will be difficult till be get the 146gpt back as well as hospitals built. we need to stay the course and toughen up.

as far as getting our finances straightened out, see if you can abandon temples and colosseums. thats 3gpt per town = 12gpt total. lose 3 content faces but we have 6 content faces from the cathedrals.

what about utica? does it have a bank? it has the colossus so the bank will help greatly.

How did we get all the way to -24gpt? We were close to even at the end of my turns, though slightly negative.

I understood what you meant about the variant. 5CC is still very doable, it is just my screwup with trading for Nationalism that is getting us in trouble. It seems like Nationalism is worth a lot more to the AI than it is, but I was barely able to get Steam Power from the Ottomans. If we are at -24gpt though, we definitely need to stop building units.

20k is also doable, but I was considering the fact that most teams are finished and our 20k isn't going to be stellar.

Then, as far as rep goes, I don't know what would have gone wrong. India settling that spot only cost us our source of wool, it did not break a trade agreement with anyone else. Everyone was already angry at us when I started playing.

Edit: Utica does not have a bank.

How did we get all the way to -24gpt? We were close to even at the end of my turns, though slightly negative.

A few knights came off the production line in the first 2 turns.

it is just my screwup with trading for Nationalism that is getting us in trouble

I'm not saying that at all - that was an honest attempt. I'm more concerned about the attitudes. I generally agree on your analysis of the 20K situation, but I'm guessing that more than 1 team has won via something other than 20K (like offa who won by conquest), so I think we're doing OK there.

Then, as far as rep goes, I don't know what would have gone wrong. India settling that spot only cost us our source of wool, it did not break a trade agreement with anyone else.

I was more thinking that if we were providing wool to anyone, since we had 3 to play with, that it could have cost us a rep hit, since we lost a source.

OK, I will switch unit production to wealth to see what that will do, and look at scrapping improvements as mentioned above. Thanks all! :)

A correction to my earlier onservation of the Ottos - they now have 4 cities, 1 on an island, with 3 in the core @12. The names are Ottoman names, but the borders aren't very expanded, so I'm guessing recent builds filled with previously-produced workers.

I thought we only had two wool, and were trading one away to can't remember who. But when India settled and got our wool, we were still providing our one source to whoever we were trading with. We only lost the wool that was making us happy. Or so I thought. If we had another wool somewhere, maybe I am confused about the whole thing.

1575 – 0
Trade our TM for Babylon’s WM, but gain no knowledge. Osman won’t trade.
0% science & 0% luxury, but -10gpt, and only 48g. Ottos & Babylon only annoyed, with the rest furious. How did we get in this position? Just from losing a wool?

IBT: 1 or 2 (1 if lots of move pts) Indian frigate & galleon pairs rounding coast near Hippo.
Leptis knight > knight in 4.
Lose our silks.

1580 - 1
Celts will give silks for banking, but with no add-ons. Greece won’t sell gems, incense or dyes.
Pull all troops out of Indian territory.

IBT: Renew peace with Greece & Persia.
Oea knight > knight.
Treasury warning now at 25g -24gpt.

1585 – 2
Check borders, and we have no intrusions into India.
Sell temple in Hippo for 7g. Sell temple in Leptis for 7g. Sell temple & colosseum in Carthage for 22g. Sell temple in Oea for 7g. Now at 68g -18gpt.
Change Leptis to coastal fortress in 2.
Change Utica to bank in 11, & MM for bank in 3, 68g -19gpt (or can do in 4, -17gpt).
MM other cities to minimize growth, and in some cases production to get to +3gpt.
With 2 knights due in 1, that should drop to +1gpt.

Position many units.

IBT: Carthage knight > wealth, Hippo knight > ironclad in 8.

1590 – 3
Change Leptis from Coastal Fortress in 1 to ironclad in 5.
MM Utica for Bank in 1, with -1 food shortage.
Now at 71g +10gpt.

IBT: Babs & Ottos MPP. India lands a settler & 2 cav, 1 LB E of Oea.
Utica bank > palace in 12.

1595 – 4
MM Utica to palace in 13, but no food loss.
position units E of OEA to keep India from moving closer to Pune, and absorbing both wool, plus break our territory link from wool to Oea.
Change Carthage to knight in 4.
Now at 81g +26gpt.

IBT: Kholapur founded, grabbing fish. 2 units try to pass through our terr.

1600 – 5
still playing....

From the looks of things we are going to have to be going to war with India someday soon, which would probably be a good use for all those troops we've been collecting.

R&L: What's our trade status with India? Any active deals? How long left?

I was thinking that it's possible that in the absence of active deals our rep has declined with the AI. I agree with the possibility of the loss of the wool causing a rep hit. It's also possible that we're not in the preferred government for some of them. Adding all that together, might be the cause of the bad feelings towards us. Let's try to gain some allies during the Indian war and that might help the rep a bit.

IIRC, ~9 turns left on trades with India.

I sent a long reply, but the server dumped it to an invalid site.

In short, we're getting killed by all of the razed cities, and the few DoWs on our friendly neighbors. The only big offsets would be MPPs / ROPs.

Monarchy isn't hurting us at all & can only help if others are in monarchy, Republic would hurt with a few, democracy would help with Greece & India, and Commie-nism has no effect at all.

I think in nine turns it will be time for war with Gandhi.

Just so everyone knows, I will probably be skipping the next SGOTM. I certainly won't be able to be a team leader. Let's finish this one up in style.

1575 – 0
Trade our TM for Babylon’s WM, but gain no knowledge. Osman won’t trade.
0% science & 0% luxury, but -10gpt, and only 48g. Ottos & Babylon only annoyed, with the rest furious. How did we get in this position? Just from losing a wool?

IBT: 1 or 2 (1 if lots of move pts) Indian frigate & galleon pairs rounding coast near Hippo.
Leptis knight > knight in 4.
Lose our silks.

1580 - 1
Celts will give silks for banking, but with no add-ons. Greece won’t sell gems, incense or dyes.
Pull all troops out of Indian territory.

IBT: Renew peace with Greece & Persia.
Oea knight > knight.
Treasury warning now at 25g -24gpt.

1585 – 2
Check borders, and we have no intrusions into India.
Sell temple in Hippo for 7g. Sell temple in Leptis for 7g. Sell temple & colosseum in Carthage for 22g. Sell temple in Oea for 7g. Now at 68g -18gpt.
Change Leptis to coastal fortress in 2.
Change Utica to bank in 11, & MM for bank in 3, 68g -19gpt (or can do in 4, -17gpt).
MM other cities to minimize growth, and in some cases production to get to +3gpt.
With 2 knights due in 1, that should drop to +1gpt.

Position many units.

IBT: Carthage knight > wealth, Hippo knight > ironclad in 8.

1590 – 3
Change Leptis from Coastal Fortress in 1 to ironclad in 5.
MM Utica for Bank in 1, with -1 food shortage.
Now at 71g +10gpt.

IBT: Babs & Ottos MPP. India lands a settler & 2 cav, 1 LB E of Oea.
Utica bank > palace in 12.

1595 – 4
MM Utica to palace in 13, but no food loss.
position units E of OEA to keep India from moving closer to Pune, and absorbing both wool, plus break our territory link from wool to Oea.
Change Carthage to knight in 4.
Now at 81g +26gpt.

IBT: Kholapur founded, grabbing fish. 2 units try to pass through our terr.

1600 – 5
MM cities again. Create scientist at Oea to get electricity in 35 +22gpt.

IBT: Celts demand Nav – No & they declare. Ottos ask for MPP & ROP. Decline for now, but we can offer ROP + 2g, which they will accept. Will not sell MT for anything.
Oea knight > knight.

1605 – 6
Still won’t sell MT straight up. Will sell it if we do MPP & ROP + 21gpt + 44g. I do not make this trade, but it is available to the next player if the team wants to pursue it.
Sell TM around for TM +1g, except even trade to Greece, and gift to India.
Change Oea to temple in 3.

IBT: Carthage knight > rifle in 4. Leptis ironclad > ironclad in 6.

1610 – 7
railroadin’
Change Oea to rifle in 3. De-emphasize spt & fpt in Utica in favor of money. MM all for money where possible, while avoiding increasing turns to build.
Electricity in 33 @ 154g +27gpt, but palace in 14.
Change Utica to ironclad in 1 (no lost shields), to keep from hitting palace too early.
I’m guessing that the plan here was to trade electricity for industrialization, and grab US? We definitely won’t make ToE in time.
Drop science to 0% with 1 scientist in OEA, while keeping Elec in 33 & +27gpt. Can’t do any shorter on turns due to poor money situation.

Questions for team / next better player:
- what’s the research plan in the short term?
- Do we try trading with Osman to grab MT, while exposing for MPP at loss of most of treasury?
- We’re strong vs Celts. Does war mean anything? Do we care?
- I’m building ironclads & rifles. Do we want them?
- Do we want to see if we can join the MPP ring with Ottos, Babs & X-Man?
- We have 5 turns left of wool to Persia. Will this expire before India expands to take the last wool colony?

got it, will play and post tonight.

Preflight check: our reputation seems to be fine. I can buy 5g for 1gpt if desired. If our rep was shot, I wouldn’t be able to do that.
Utica is building an ironclad? Switch it to a rifle. Actually, we have 0 rifles right now so I switch all ironclad builds to rifles.

IBT: Utica rifle -> rifle

T1: 1615AD Decide to buy wool from India so we don’t screw up our rep when the borders expand. Buy wool from India for WM and 139g
Darnit! No barracks in Utica! Switch build to one.
Disband 4 caravel’s in Leptis as I don’t see the need. Shaves 3T off the rifle build.

IBT: India wants an MPP & RoP + 11gpt. Fat chance funnyman.

T2: 1620AD

IBT: Utica: barracks -> rifle, disband a musket in town; Leptis rifle -> rifle, disband a musket in town; Hippo rifle -> rifle, disband a musket in town; Oea rifle -> rifle, disband a musket in town

T3: 1625AD landscaping

IBT: Greeks declare on Ottomans. Babylon declares on the greeks, Persia declares on the Greeks
Carthage rifle -> rifle, disband a musket in town

T4: 1630AD Can buy MT from Persia for our only iron + 100g + 21gpt, however I wait as our horsy deal with India is up next turn and this wouldn’t leave us with enough gold to upgrade cav’s

IBT: horse deal with India runs out. I’m gonna see about buying from someone else next turn.
Utica rifle -> rifle; Oea rifle -> rifle, disband a musket
Celts land some junk near our capitol.

T5: 1635AD

T6: 1640AD Ottomans and Greece have Industrialization.
Bombard pike in Celt stack to 1hp, elite musket kills elite warrior (1/5); knight kills horse (2/4); knights cover cannon and musket, waiting for elite LB to finish off the pike.
Trade: Greeks: sell them Ivory for horses, WM, 13gpt, and 196g

IBT: spice deal with Greece is up, sell them spices, WM, and 217g for MT
Carthage rifle -> wealth, Leptis rifle -> wealth, Palace gets some shrubbery; Indians are building US

T7: 1645AD Elite LB kills redlined pike (4/5); Upgrade 8 Knights, switch Utica to MT and maximize shield count

IBT: Vikings and Greece MA vs Persia
Hippo rifle -> rifle, disband a musket

T8: 1650AD India is furious with us but I cannot get them to leave or declare (option not available)

IBT: Oea rifle -> rifle, disband a musket in town

T9: 1655AD nada

T10: 1660AD ahh, now we make 160gpt.
Buy commie for 107gpt, ivory, WM, and 51g from India
Buy industrialization for commie, 6gpt and spices from Otto’s
Sell commie to Persia getting Medicine, 3gpt, WM, and 76g
Buy Sanitation from Persia for Industrialization, straight up.
Sell Sanitation to Ottomans for dyes, 20gpt and 120g

Sanitation is available from the Persians for Industrialization.
Switch Utica to a factory and starve build in 4T.
Switch Oea and Carthage to hospitals. Next player may want to switch these to Factories, don’t know. Other 2 cities need more rails before trying to build these.

At some point, India (which is still furious with us, btw) will try to cross our territory to get to their towns. We should get the option to leave or declare, hopefully they bite. I don’t see much hope for US, but maybe with a factory and coal plant, we can snag it. Also, i didn't sign peace with the Celts as they are pretty useless right now. Maybe we should take all our LB's and a rifle or 2 and send them overthere to leader hunt. we have lots of ships doing squat right now.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sgotm4-bugs-1660AD.jpg

:eek: Wow!! Your Indians and Greeks are so huge!!!!

denyd is up
I'm on deck

Nice turns G-Man, particularly the trading.

Hyberbad is going to be difficult to eliminate without cannons. I'll rush that factory in Utica when the cash is available. Are we better off trying for US right away or putting a coal plant in first? I'll try to get factories & hospitals in all cities. That will allow Battlefield Medicine.

I'll play this first tonight.

Nice turns G-Man, particularly the trading.

Hyberbad is going to be difficult to eliminate without cannons. I'll rush that factory in Utica when the cash is available. Are we better off trying for US right away or putting a coal plant in first? I'll try to get factories & hospitals in all cities. That will allow Battlefield Medicine.

I'll play this first tonight.
something to consider is disbanding the army in utica to get it's 100 shields towards the factory or the coal plant. however, i would do both before trying for US again. spt atm is ~30, with factory ~ 45, with coal plant ~ 60. the coal plant can be build in 2T by disbanding the army, or 4 turns without. by disbanding the army, we double our spt output in 6T total, not too shabby :)

re: india. not sure we really need to attack her or not. other than being a distraction, she's really not doing much to disturb us, and we can get lux's very cheap from the other AI's.

one thing we must do is take a hard look at our military. we are definitely build for a conquest, so maybe it'd be a good idea to use our current war with the celts usefully and pack a few upgraded caravels and send them out, going for leaders. :hmm: this lets the vikings expand a little as well. if you do it, do it right away, no time to waste.

Now here this: All extra troops please head for the nearest available ship for passage to the Celtic homeland. This may be your only chance to see those lush, green hills and kill a couple of Gallic Swordsmen before you get retired to the obsolete soldiers home. Priority seating will be given to all Elites. Cavalry & LB's are next on the list. Artillery & rifles need not attempt to board as you will be turned away.

In another new development, the extended peace with India will continue for the forseeable future.

i probably hamstrung you a bit by not positioning the ships and just leaving them fortified. hopefully, they can get to Leptis quick enough for upgrade and then take advantage of the differential naval movement to get to the celtic lands fast enough. well, at least you can move them this turn. good luck :)

Turn Log 8

Turn 0 – 1660 AD – Wake the caravels and send them to Leptis for upgrading – Disbanding Wimpy Army to complete Factory – Give India 40g to sign an ROP (need to be able to get those workers from Oea) – Switch Leptis to a galleon – Send all LB & Knights to Leptis

IBT: Spot a Celtic ship approaching – Utica completes factory starts a coal plat (I’ll use some old troops to help it along) – Persia starts US in Gordium (that’s there island city) – India is building it in Pasagarde which isn’t that well developed so we have a good chance

Turn 1 – 1665 AD – Upgrade 3 Caravels to Galleons and load them with Knights & LB – Disband a couple of Vet LBs in Utica

IBT: Celts land a GS & 2 Horses – Hippo builds Rifleman starts Hospital

Turn 2 – 1670 AD – Cannons go 4 for 4 on the invaders, cats go 1 for 2 – Knight (4/4) kills Horse – Elite LB (4/5) kills Horse – Knight (4/4) kills GS – Disband a pair of Vet Muskets to hurry Coal Plant along

IBT: Utica builds Coal Plant starts Universal Suffrage (due in 12 starving) – India & Greece now have The Corporation

Turn 3 – 1675 AD – 4 Ship Armada heading to see Brennus – Form a catapult conga line to keep Indian troops out of our core

IBT: Leptis builds Galleon starts another

Turn 4 – 1680 AD – A fourth Galleon sets off to join the other three – Some chopping, railing & mining

IBT: Another Celtic ship shows up – Carthage builds a hospital starts a factory – Oea builds a hospital starts a factory

Turn 5 – 1685 AD – Chopping, railing, mining & sailing

IBT: Two more Celtic horses have come to visit – Greece & Babylon sign peace

Turn 6 – 1690 AD – Cannons soften up the Celt Horses and 2 knights dispatch them (no promotions, mild damage)

IBT: Leptis builds Galleon starts Hospital

Turn 7 – 1695 AD – Another loaded galleon sets sail – For those interested Utica just passed 10K (10,029 with 85cpt)

IBT: Persia comes to call and I trade TMs getting 1g

Turn 8 – 1700 AD – First troops have landed on Celt mountain

IBT: Knight wins against GS promoting to Elite and lose 1 knight against GS

Turn 9 – 1705 AD - Lose 4 Vet Knights killing 3 muskets, 1 horse & 1 MDI but get a Great Leader (too wounded to take city – Switch Utica to Military Academy (losing 3 shields) – India now has Espionage

IBT: Lose a Knight (taking 2 knights & MDI with him) – Utica builds Military Academy starts a Hospital – Persia starts Universal Suffrage (again in Gordium)

Turn 10 – 1710 AD – Pull a Dunkirk and evacuate 6 redlined units

Utica is set to complete the hospital in three turns, you’ve got enough to hurry it if necessary – Hanno should be able to reach Utica about then and be able to hurry US – we are still 13 turns from Electricity so we might be able to slip in Battlefield Medicine before starting the TOE pre-build. I don’t remember if troops heal on ships. If they do, they in a couple of turns we’ll have about 14 units ready to invade the Celts again (time to leader farm again) – Not much available on the trade front

nice work :goodjob: units definitely heal on ships (used that tactic a few times here and there). coal plant and factory in 2 turns :eek: that's some excellent builder moves there [dance]

I have it. Should have it done by tomorrow.

R&L is on deck, then Bedhead.

Early - We’re only halfway to 20K. Spend 232G short rushing Utica’s hospital. You guys are some serious builders. A factory and a coal plant are very nice. Hospital due in two, city grows in two. The tech race is looking good, we’re only behind India (Espion & Corp) and Greece (Corp). Pull the ships back from the Celtic coast so the troops can heal. Hanno gets back to Utica and hurries US. All our essential tiles have been improved. I shift-A some of our workers and let them run amuck. I hope no one minds. I kept enough for pollution control.

Hippo: Hosp=>Granary
Utica: Hosp=>US => granary (due in 1)
Carthage: factory=>coal
Oea: Factory=>cav
Persia and Greece sign a treaty


Middle - Land our now healthy units back in Ireland on a mountain. Espionage is widely known. Lose a knight. Four kills (one elite) no promotions. Fours Celts are dropped off by Leptis on two occasions, bombard and kill them. Lose a knight in Ireland.
Renegotiate a deal with Alex. We were getting horses and 14 gpt for ivory. We are now getting horses, gems, incense & 16 gpt for ivory. Lose two LBs.

Utica: granary=>BM (due in 9)
Leptis: Hosp=>factory
Hippo: granary=> 2 cav
Oea: cav=>coal=>cav
Carthage: cav=>rifle=Cav

Late - We lost our dyes, so I sell the Ottomans coal for dyes and 4gpt. Gandhi doesn’t want to renew the RoP. I throw in Ivory and he gives us furs, wool & 7 gpt plus the ROP.
Electricity => Sci Meth

After Action - Carthage is now at 80 spt. MM our cities to optimize growth. We can get Espionage from the Ottomans for a nice deal. BM is due next turn. If the game is playing quickly, feel free to play a few extra turns. I think I played 12. We’ll be at 20K in 96 turns.

Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bugsy_SG004_AD1760_01.SAV

I am guessing the granary is so Utica gets to size 20 sooner? When at all possible, join workers instead of letting it grow naturally.

That was my thought.

BTW:

R&L - Up
Bedhead - On deck

I should be able to knock off 3 grams fairly quickly, and will start toplaying tonight, but don't expect to finish tonight. Got it.

Un-got it.

Due to RL pressures (B-day, jury duty, big scanning project, Canadian relatives coming for weekend), I'm going to need a skip. I believe that I'll be available again on 11/21. Sorry.

ok R&L, thanks for letting us know. this makes bedhead up!

Just a heads up that I'll be unavailable from 11/24 until 11/28 and will need to be skipped should by turn come up.

How nice! Now I have two 5CC games tonight.

Just a thought: Could we win quicker if we went for diplomatic? I'm not sure we have the science to research fast enough to get to Fission in time. We'd be up against the Greeks for sure. We could probably setup an MPP with the other AI and about 3 turns pre-UN declare war on Greece and when they attack, we'd have a bunch of allies who'd vote for us.

I'd say go for whichever we can get quicker, 20K or diplo.

IT - Trade Electricity to Ottomans for Espionage and the gold they can offer. Switch BM to IA in Utica, as it is the same culturally, I don't really want to build BM, and we should get SM in time to switch BM to ToE.

1762 AD (1) - Join Roman workers mostly, a couple Indians by accident, into Utica until it hits size 20. Production is 82spt.

1764 AD (2) - Going to try to take down Mohacs, and the army within. Lose one cavalry before the army goes. Did pretty well with cavalry against muskets, but when I sent the elite longbowman in to finish the job against a redlined musketman, the longbowman only promoted the musketman. But Mohacs captured, and then abandoned.

1770 AD (5) - Razed Camoludunum. Must have had about 10 or 12 veteran victories without any promotions to elite, so we are still without a unit that could even produce a leader.

1772 AD (6) - A Celtic cavalry is out in the open, so I send a cavalry of ours at it, and lose on grassland to promote it to elite. Then I send another vet at it, and the Celt wins again, getting a great leader. Luckily, still had active cavalry to finally kill the Celt and Orgeterix or whatever it was.

1774 AD (7) - Indians learn Scientific Method. We pay 3300g for it, then trade it and 153g plus 8gpt to Persia for the Corporation. This reveals that the Greeks have Refining and Steel, the Persians Steel. So SM, spices, and 25gpt to Greece for Refining. Then Refining and 14gpt to Persia for Steel. The only tech still available is Replaceable Parts, but India holds a monopoly on it. Celts also dropped off some units near Carthage, and in taking care of them we got a knight to promote to elite.

1776 AD (8) - Made another huge mistake, and didn't check which tech was auto selected after making all those trades, and...

1778 AD (9) - Combustion is learned. Yikes, never done that before, and now I do it in an SGOTM. Oops. Take Atomic Theory next, and do maximum we can afford, which gives Electronics in 23 turns. Beautiful. Can't believe I was this careless. Anyway, sold Atomic Theory to Indians for RP and 770g. We wouldn't get Electronics very quickly. Then got as much as Persia and Greece could give (not much, 45gpt and about 150g combined) for RP. We have rubber, at least.

1780 AD (10) - Had made some progress at Entremont, but now a rifle is defending. I'll leave it all up to the next player, though.

Lots of pollution at Utica. I hadn't been too concerned, but now a grassland (or was it plains) is polluted so it is starving. Grabbing workers that have been automated and putting them on cleanup duty might not be a bad idea. By the way, now that we are considering diplo, I am going to go ahead and call my move brilliant, since in all likelihood if we did some gifting and such this might have...no, it wouldn't? Okay, still a stupid move. Oh well. But if diplo comes along first and we can win it, I'm all for taking it.

i got it. it's a shame that the ToE research got messed up, but mistakes happen. Let's see how we do from here on :) Good call on BM, as it's another 100 shields for prebuilding hoovers.

Sorry bedhead, but why are we joining foreign workers? they are free! we should have used the other towns to build workers to join in Utica instead. the three northern ones could probably do 1 worker every turn, thus 6 citizens in 2T to get us to 18 pop or so. also, we get 0 points for each foreign citizen, which will screw up our firaxis/jason score. imho, that was a bad idea. i did not understand your previous post to mean this. i guess i should ask more questions next time :(

Going for diplo is fine with me.

I was a little confused by what you said at the end, bed, but G-man cleared it up for me - bummer. I also didn't understand the worker joining, but whatever. We deal with it and go on to win.

So as I understand it:

We've now got combustion, replaceable parts and atomic theory and are researching Electronics.

We built Battlefield Medicine & Theory of Evolution and are now building a Hoover Dam pre-build in Utica.

We razed a couple of Celtic cities.

We have a couple of Indian citizens living in Utica. Hopefully they'll open a restaurant, I like a nice curry.

Our terrain is fully developed and our native workers (if we have any should be folded back into the cities) and the imported workers are dedicated to cleaning up pollution.

(Please correct where I'm in error)

Questions and ideas:

Have we built 5 stock exchanges yet? We should get that done ASAP (after Hoover of course) and the build Wall Street in Utica.

Have we upgraded any rifles to infantry? We should have at least 1 in every city.

Have we planted any spies yet? I've found it's a lot cheaper to steal techs than to pay full price for them. (remember JumpMasters1A)

What is the current ETA for a 20K win?

After Hoover & Wall Street, if we have nothing else of value to build, pump out an army and fill it with Infantry.

If we end up going for diplomatic, what can we do to make everyone happier with us?

Force of habit. I know it doesn't make any real difference, but letting it sit any longer at size 13 or 14 waiting for growth just bugged me. No flip risks, and I didn't know the scoring glitch there. We had no native workers, so I joined what we had, even though they I know they are free. At this point, all we really need workers for is cleanup, so I didn't think joining 6 would be so much of a problem. No stock exchanges yet, though I think the three northern cities are building them. I forgot to change Oea to Stock Exchange almost for sure.

We should hit 20k at about the same time Bugsy projected a few posts back. I think he said 96 at the end of his, subtract my 10, and we are at 86. Wonders aren't going to do too much for us at this point. I would guess that the we will finish will be about 80 turns from now.

And if you should have asked more questions, I should have explained a lot of things a bit better. To be perfectly honest, this has been a rather undistinguished game, even disregarding our poor leader luck. I have played more 20k games than any of the rest of you, and should have been more vocal about certain things.

Hey don't worry about it. It has been fun. That's why I play. No fun = no play.

G-man is up
Denyd is on deck

Upgrade a few rifles. Speed up research on Electronics from 0% to 100% to get in 16T (-75gpt)
I don’t know what’s in Entremont or how many units were killed so I move the redlined cav’s out and will wait till next turn when I can get another cav for attack.
Sell Combustion to India for 57gpt and 75g

IBT:

T1: 1782AD Kill 2 rifles and lose 1 cav @ Entremont. 2 cavs and a knight retreat

IBT: Greece demands combustion and I refuse. They declare on us.

T2: 1784AD Sign India on against the Greeks for 459g and WM; Sell AT to Persia for WM, 70gpt, and 58g. Buy horses from India for 160g. Upgrade knights and cannons.

IBT: India signs Babylon on against Greece; Vikings declare on India; Celts offer up a musket near Carthage

T3: 1786AD redline musket; kill it with an elite knight.

T4: 1788AD take Entremont, using a LB to kill the last rifle and getting it promoted :rolleyes:

T5: 1790AD

T6: 1792AD Lose an ironclad to the Celtic Navy

T7: 1794AD

IBT: India renegotiates wool/furs for ivory deal; Utica BM’s -> Army

T8: 1796AD Babylonian settler/spear pair coming to poach our ivories :lol: India is now up MP.

T9: 1798AD

T10: 1800AD Nada. Army due in 5T, electronics in 6T, so next player has to fudge the build to time it right. Celtic units have not moved. There's a new town near our stacks that we can leader hunt on.

Good luck, and don’t forget we MA’d India vs the Greeks.

I got it and will play tonight.

I should be able to switch the army to a palace and get Hoover soon. I'll also try to get Wall Street started. If we end up getting an GL in the Celtic war what would be a good use for him. Save for Apollo? Build another army (if we can)?

Sounds like a giant furball is about to erupt. We'll need to prevent Babylon from snatching away our Ivory. I hope we've got no deals with them.

Is there any Greek cities for us to attack on the Celt island? We should at least send a couple of ships to the Greek homeland for some bombardment.

As long as India is at war with Greece, I see no reason to end the arrangement.

Do we have a source of rubber local?

I believe that a recent post said that yes, we have rubber as a local resource.

i wouldn't worry about the babylonian pair, they'll be harmless. i upgraded all those blocking knights to cav's so we'd have a little better punch for the landings. also, cannons were upgraded to arty's.

i think, but i may be wrong, that the army costs more shields than the palace since we only have 5 towns.

celtic island is being repopulated by Vikings, not Greeks, which is good.

Turn Log 9

Turn 0 – 1800 AD – I have a wild idea I’ll present at the end – Assault on Georgivia: Vet Cavalry (3/4) kills Vet Musket and Georgivia auto-razes adding 17g – Slow down the production in Utica – Wake the Shaw (destroyer) and send him to shell the Greek coast – Switch Carthage to Settler

IBT: Lose 3 Galleons to Greek ironclads taking 1 with them – Carthage Settler->Artillery – Rome Infantry->Infantry

Turn 1 – 1802 AD – Disband a Catapult & Musket in Oea to hurry an Infantry – Workers go clean up pollution – Destroyer (2/4) sinks Greek Ironclad – Destroyer (1/4) sinks Greek Galleon – Settler joins Hippo – SOD advances on Lugdunum

IBT: Carthage Artillery->Artillery – Oea Infantry->Artillery

Turn 2 – 1804 AD – Wounded destroyers Shaw & Mahan return to Utica – Mason (destroyer) looking for those Greek ironclads – I am replacing our catapults with artillery

IBT: A healing Vet Cavalry (1/4) wins against attacking Celt Cavalry – Give our WM to Vikings to extend ROP (just because) – Babylon & India sign against Ottomans – Carthage Artillery->Artillery Leptis Destroyer->Destroyer – Hippo Destroyer->Destroyer – Oea Artillery->Artillery

Turn 3 – 1806 – Astin (destroyer) leaves Leptis heading south – Spruance (destroyer) goes hunting ironclads – SOD reaches Lugdunum

IBT: Babylon & Celts sign embargo against us – Carthage artillery->artillery – Oea artillery->artillery

Turn 4 – 1808 AD – Fully repaired Shaw & Mahan put to sea seeking Greek shipping – Mason (4/4) sinks wounded Greek Ironclad – Assault on Lugdunum: Vet Cavalry (1/4) retreats to Vet Rifle (3/4) – Vet Cavalry (4/4) kills Vet Rifle – Vet Cavalry losses to Vet Rifle (1/4) who promotes – Elite LB (3/5) kills Conscript Rifle – Vet Cavalry (4/4) kills Vet Rifle and takes Lugdunum – Sell bank & barracks and give it to Vikings who now have a harbor

IBT: India & Greece sign peace – Carthage Artillery->Artillery – Oea Artillery->Artillery

Turn 5 – 1810 AD – Artillery red-line a Greek Ironclad and Shaw (4/4) sinks it – Spruance red-lines a Greek Ironclad but sinks – Mason redlines a Greek Caravel with the Ironclad but sinks – Trade Combustion to Persia for WM + 282g + 50gpt

IBT: Babylon & India sign alliance against Persia – Discover Electronics research Radio – Carthage Artillery->Settler – Leptis Destroyer->Destroyer – Hippo Destroyer->Destroyer – Oea Artillery-Artillery

Turn 6 – 1812 AD – Canton (destroyer) & Toledo (destroyer) leave port and go hunting – SOD advancing on final Celt city

IBT: India & Ottomans sign peace – Carthage Settler->Artillery – Oea Artillery->Artillery

Turn 7 – 1814 AD – Canton (2/4) sinks Greek Ironclad – Assault on Richardborough: Vet Cavalry loses to Vet Rifle (1/4) – Vet Cavalry (4/4) kills Conscript Rifle – Vet Cavalry (3/4) kills Conscript Rifle – Vet Cavalry (4/4) kills Wounded Vet Rifle and we take Richardborough and a lot of trade embargoes against us end and the Celts are gone – Sell off the Marketplace & Harbor and give the city to the Ottoman – Trade Magnetism to Vikings for WM + 24gpt + 10g – Price to sell Electronics to India dropped so sell Electronics to India for 31gpt + 290g

IBT: Carthage Artillery->Infantry – Oea Artillery->Wealth – India starts Hoover Dam

Turn 8 – 1816 AD – Shaw (4/4) sinks Greek Caravel – Astin (2/4) sinks Greek Ironclad – Spend 120g to plant a spy in Delhi

IBT: Astin sunk by Greek Ironclad (1/4) – Leptis Destroyer->Destroyer – Hippo Destroyer->Destroyer

Turn 9 – 1818 AD – Carlsbad & Taos (destroyers) go hunting

IBT: Greece declares war on India – Carthage Infantry->Settler

Turn 10 – 1820 AD – Mahan (4/4) sinks Greek Ironclad

After Action Report: I tried but was unable to get Mass Production from India – there is a spy in Delhi and we might end up stealing the tech – India & Greece are at war and we are at war with Greece, but no alliances – In Utica: Hoover Dam is due next turn, then start a Stock Exchange, disband a couple of artillery and cash rush the Stock Exchange, then start Wall Street – DO NOT ATTACK GREECE IN GREEK TERRITORY, I REPEAT DO NOT ATTACK GREECE IN GREEK TERRITORY – I gave a city & a tech to Vikings in hopes of obtaining silks for an obsolete tech, once their Greek inspired embargo expires and they have an MPP with Greece – I’ve been holding off signing peace with Greece hoping to get something of value in the deal (maybe combustion for electronics once they get combustion) – Once we sign peace with Greece, send a transport with a settler to the ex-Celt lands, found a city, move all the troops into the city and give the city to Babylon or Persia to get those troops home the easy way. The current settler build is meant for either Leptis or Hippo. That Babylon Spearman/Settler pair is still camped in the mountains west of Utica, so don’t expose any ivory tiles. Utica culture is 14252 and making 95cpt – Treasury is 1539g making 89gpt

Maybe it's just me, but why can't I ever seem to find the submissions page. The page titled Submit game, doesn't have a link to the submissions page. Maybe, I should just go to bed now :sleep:

The link to the submissions page is in the first post of the thread denyd. It says "Upload save" IIRC.

Nicely played, Denyd! :clap: Given the way that this set reads, it looks like Diplo is still possible, but would be more appropriate to a 20K. Either way, as long as we have a win.

Between being tired and not being able to find the submissions page (thanks for the reminder to MB), I forgot all about the wild idea I want to put forward.

Once we sign peace with Greece, load up our transports with 3 infantry, 3 settlers & 3 artillery & 3 imported workers and head off to Richardborough using a couple of destroyers as escorts.

Unload those units in neutral ground N of Richardborough, declare war on Ottoman and raze Richardborough. Found a city N of ruins. Have the other 2 settlers join (instant size 5 city), send the imported workers to establish colonies on the rubber, saltpeter & iron. Disband a couple of riflemen/muskets in new city and then hurry a harbor. Evacuate Rome and give the city to Babylon or Persia. Once the harbor completes start a library using units & $$ to hurry it. Return later with another transport with 3 more settlers (growth to size 12), 6 more imported workers & 3 more artillery. Have the workers rail all the terrain for the new city. Keep rushing new improvements using obsolete troops & cash (order: aqueduct, marketplace, temple, cathedral, bank)

Benefits:
Still have iron
Gain a saltpeter, an oil & a rubber (until Lugdunum expands)
Gain immediate silks and another when expansion occurs
Trade imbedded city surrounded by powerful neighbor for a corner island city with weak neighbor.
New city will not be isolated if we lose Indian ROP

Losses:
We lose a coal source (still have 2)
New city is size 12 old city is size 20
New city is more distant with possibly more corruption
More difficult to protect due to distance from reinforcements

If we decide to do this wait until Wall Street is started so we don't lose the ability with <5 Stock Exchanges.

For those visual learners:
X = new city site
C = new colony
S = current location of our attack force
L = Local luxuries
O = Local oil

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/wild.jpg

we're 60T from a 20k cultural victory, probably closer for a UN victory. I don't mind doing this as I don't believe it will really effect us one way or the other, but could be fun for the next players. imho, get the settlers from Oea and reduces it's pop as much as possible. sell all improvements. irrigate all the land too (no mines) as I don't think we want to give away a mega city like Oea, with courts, police stations, factory, coal plant, etc, right on our border and to a strong civ. that's just asking for trouble.

edit: 1 more thing, do we need the silks more than the oil and iron? if not, i'd settle to the SE a little more, unless, of course, we can't due to poor terrain. also, the other thing we lose is research ability, but we're pretty poor at that now since we missed both Newtons and Copernicus.

I was planning on giving it to the weakest tribe alive, maybe the Ottomans if their still alive or Babylon. I agree with stripping it of people/improvements first. We could probably even setup a colony on the coal and block out any surrounding tiles to increase the life of the colony.

Good point about the research loss. We've already got an oil & rubber source. I was planning out using those as trade bait like the 2nd silks source.

I finally found the standings page. It looks like 2 teams have dropped out and 3 have completed conquest victories. That leaves 8 other teams still playing. If I remember correctly, everyone is playing the 5CC variant.

Good point about the research loss. We've already got an oil & rubber source. I was planning out using those as trade bait like the 2nd silks source.
stupid question, but does anyone else need oil, rubber, or iron? i gotta think greece and india have plenty but i'm not too sure.

I have it. Do not attack Greece. How far are we from diplo? We're probably within 50 turns of 20K.

R&L - I'll try to have this up by tomorrow evening at the latest so you can play Saturday or Sunday.

Sunday PM is my soonest available time.

Everyone should play 15 turns, unless we go to war. Which we should avoid until it is time for the vote.

Early – 20K projection date = 1942 AD.
Utica: Hoover Dam=>Stock Ex
Sell Electronics in a peace deal with Greece for everything they have. 283G, 38gpt & WM
Short rush the Stock Ex. We lose our supply of horses. So what.
Utica: stock Ex =>wall street


Middle - Sell the Ottomans Refining so they know about their oil. Get 70G, 14gpt, WM.
Utica: Wall Street=> Police Station (a palace will only last 4 turns)
Renew our sale of ivory with Gandhi. This time we get furs, wool & 10gpt.
Get hit with three spots of pollution. Wish we still had all our slaves.
Ragnar wants an MPP. I sell him medicine instead and get silks & WM. His attitude improves. Pay Gandhi 60G & WM for renewing the ROP.

Late - India now has flight.
Osman of the 2CC demands ivory. HA!
Radio=>MP
Sell Gandhi Radio for MP, 861G, 48gpt, horses & WM
Start Motor Transport.
Spend 3102G, stealing flight from the Indians.
Sell the Greeks Radio for Incense, Dyes, 649G, 95gpt & WM

After Action – I’ve been building bombers and destroyers. 20K is due in 43 turns. Or 1936 AD. Seven turns until we move into the Modern Age. Figure 15 turns max to research Fission. Plus 6 turns after that to take our pre-build from 400 shields to 600 shields. So we should be complete in a maximum of 28 turns.

We’re third in population. I think Greece will be our competition for the UN vote, but it could be India. Counting the pop numbers, India has a pop of 277. Greece is 193. Greece has more land area. We may be competing against them both. The vote will be tricky.

Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bugsy_SG004_AD1850_01.SAV

Since R&L can't take this until Sunday, Bedhead can you take it. If so, then R&L will be on deck. If you each play 15 turns, whoever plays second will have the honor of driving us across the finish line.

No time until Tuesday, I think, so I'll have to request a skip.

Ok then. R&L will be up.

Then either Bedhead or G-man will get to finish this off.

I finally found the standings page.For those who have trouble getting to grips with browser bookmarks/favourites, I've added links in the main menu on the GOTM web site to get to the SGOTM submissions and status pages. I've also added direct links between the two pages. The status page has also been a link in my forum sig for a while.

R&L - DO you have this?

R&L was autoskipping till today. i would imagine he'll have time to check in tonight or tomorrow.

Checking in. I'll get it later tonight.

:bump: anyone really got it?

Sorry for the delay. Yes, really.

Oops, should have posted something. I played, and then accidentally played 15 turns. But since it was yours, we'll forget about it.

Thanks Bed. Here's 11, and I'll put up the last 4 tomorrow.

1850 – 0
reset prefs & grid. Review F# & diplo screens.
Slightly confused & amused by Bab settler pair near Utica.
1 each salt, rubber, oil & iron, and 3 coal – tight.
India at war with Greece – priceless.
No wonders being built by anyone.

Up flight & MP on Greece, even with India, up SM, steel & RP on Ottos, up stem, comm. & many more on Babs, up flight, MP & electronics on Persia, up whole IA on Viks.

IBT: Utica destroyer > airport. Change Oea from wealth to airport.

1852 – 1
sell spices to Greece for gems, WM, 110g + 18gpt

IBT: Indian BB shows up near Utica from Babylon, Carthage bomber > bomber, Hippo destroyer > destroyer

1854 – 2
maneuver

IBT: Indian BB heads back SE toward Viks
Leptis destroyer > destroyer, Oea airport > civdef.

1856 – 3
Indian BB met up w/ ironclad in strait NE of Oslo.
Maneuver

IBT: Babs & Ottos at peace.
Carthage bomber > bomber, Utica airport > comm dock, Hippo destroyer > destroyer.

1858 – 4
Indian ships now near Ur.

IBT: Alex demands coal – I cave to keep the peace & trade deals
Greek destroyer & Xport approach Punjab (Roman W tip), Indian BB heads W toward same.
Oea civdef > fighter

1860 – 5
realize that trading a lux to Greece was a mistake, as it exposes our rep.
Now see Indian destroyer & Xport where Greeks were headed.

IBT: Indians moving destroyers and Xports from home island & from Vik area toward their cities on our landmass (Dacca & Punjab).
Carthage bomber > civdef, Leptis destroyer > civdef, Oea fighter > inf

1862 – 6
See Punjab is now Greek.
Someone must have automated workers, because they disappear, and we’ve positive cash.

IBT: Renew peace with Greeks straight up.
Greeks will give WM + 148g + 28gpt for ivory. Since we’re only 5 turns in to the other one, OK.
At least 6 Indian bombers hit Punjab, as well as 2 destoyers & 2 transports – still Greek.
MT comes in as we enter the ModA > Fission in 23.
Utica Comm dock > civdef, Hippo destroyer > tank
The folks add a new façade to the palace.
Our modern age male scientist looks like Alan Greenspan. :D

1864 - 7
Looks like Greek destroyer sank Indian BB near Ur.

IBT: 6 Indian bombers hit Punjab again, and recapture w/ cav.
3 DDs & 2 Xports head SW (toward island?)

Carthage civdef > tank, Oea inf > tank
The folks connect the left wing to the palace.

1866 - 8

IBT: Viks & Persia do MPP, Persia & Greece MA vs Babs, Persia declares on Babs
Utica civdef > tank, Leptis civdef > tank, Hippo tank > tank

1868 – 9
See Indian FOD (4 vdestroyers + 1 edestroyer) near Plebos

We are up MT to India’s amphib, but won’t trade (not that I planned on it anyway)
We’re up flight & MT on Greece.
Up sci meth & steel on Ottos.
Up steam on Babs. Sell steam to Babs for WM + 165g + 17gpt.
Up flight, mass prod & electronics on Persia.
Up steam & comm on Viks. Sell steam to Viks for WM + 50g + 6gpt.
1 of our coals plays out, so we now have 2.

IBT: Carthage tank > tank, Oea tank > tank,

1870 – 10

IBT: Indians want MPP > we trade TMs.
Utica tank > army in 6, Hippo tank > civdef

1872 – 11

IBT:

Nice progress R&L.

IBT: carthage tank > tank, Leptis tank > bomber, Oea tank > tank

1874 – 12
Note that India has active marines on our landmass.
Maneuver

IBT: India renegotiates ivory deal. We sell Ivory to India for wool, furs +10gpt.
Greek DD sunk by Indian DD near Ur.
Hippo civdef > tank
Lose silks. Re-negotiate > sell Communism to Viks for silks + 32g + WM (whole treasury)

1876 – 13
Zzzzz
Note that when time for UN prebuild comes (at 1000s), the only half-decent prebuild is an army at 400s.

IBT: Greece & India sign peace. India cuts ROP. Re-sign ROP by giving WM + 58g (they wanted 70g). Note that India is still up amphib, but now has MT.
2 Indian DD / Xport pairs approach coast NE of Punjab.
Carthage tank > bomber, Oea tank > tank.

1878 – 14
Re-base all bombers to Utica.
Tanks: Carthage 3, Utica 1, Leptis 1, Hippo 2 (1 due in 1), 3 in Oea
India is rich & up in tech, so it will be hard to MA her.

IBT: 3rd Xport approaches Punjab w/ ironclad. 1 DD pair leaves, 1 DD pair enters city.
Leptis bomber > tank, Hippo tank > tank

1880 – 15
Re-base all 5 bombers to Utica. 1 fighter in Oea.
Tanks: Carthage 3, Utica 1, Leptis 1, Hippo 3, Oea 3
Inf: Carthage 2, Utica 3, Leptis 2, Hippo 2, Oea 6, 2 on arty near Utica.
Arty: Carthage 6, Utica 0, Leptis 0, Hippo 0, Oea 4, 5 on hills near Utica.

Off to the next better player. Hopefully one who is a consummate negotiator! :D
Bring it home for us Bed!
Scores: Greece 1614, India 1247, US 804, Celts, Viks, Babs, Persians, Ottos, Romans, Germans
Utica currently at 17210 culture + 99cpt

Bed head - You get to take this one across the finish line.

Okay. I'll see how quickly I can get it done.

UN finishes next turn. Unfortunately, though I tried gifting and such, couldn't get Fission any faster than we could research it. Babylon didn't get a free tech, and the other three got each of the other Modern Age techs. I am not especially skilled at getting people friendly, so the next better player can go ahead and make the necessary diplomatic agreements so that we win.

OK, I've got it.

I think it would be wise to plan on it being a 3-way race, which should help us. Also, we need to get > 50% of the vote. The Viks & Ottos are the low hanging fruit to make positive, and Persia seems hostile. Greece & India will vote for themselves, so I predict it will be unresolved. Perhaps don't overspend on making things too positive yet, just enough to keep it floating.

Still plan on pursuing the space race. Also, be aware that Manhattan is the cascade for UN, so we'll need SAMs & anything else we can get.

Pre-flight – 1918 AD – I sign an MPP and ROP with Osman. I also throw in Spices. He goes from annoyed to polite.
I sign an MPP and ROP with Xerxes and he stays furious. I then throw in Ecology. He stays furious. :hmm: I gift him 100gpt. Still furious.
I sign Ragnar to a MPP and ROP and throw in Ecology, Fission and computers. He is polite.

The vote will be with either India or Greece. Taking no chances, I sign an MPP and ROP with each. I throw in an extra 2000G for both. Gandhi goes to annoyed. Alex stays furious.

IBT – Xerxes demands TM & 100G. Fine.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4_-_UN.jpg

The vote is three way, between Gandhi, Alex and us.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4_-_UN_vote.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4_-_UN_vote_results1.jpg

:hmm: I guess I didn’t bribe everyone enough. Onwards to 20K. I spend the next few turns essentially hitting enter and replacing citizens on tiles after the population is cleaned up. Meanwhile the Indians start the internet and build the Manhattan Project.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4_-_Victory.jpg

We’re Hannibal the Terrible.

nice game gentleman :goodjob: thanks for closing it out bugs!

Nice game all! May we have occassion to share a game again in the future! Good luck to those of you going on to SGoTM5.

@Bugs - will you be submitting a spoiler posting for this?

Nice finish Bugs - seems I Turkey-dayed right past the end of this one - well played to all - not sure if we've got a chance for any awards, but at least we got one as a team before splitting up.