SGOTM4 - Game Thread.

Hi everyone, and welcome to your game thread.

Here is the start position.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4.jpg

Note: EVERYONE has to install the correct resource graphics whether or not they have played this scenario or GOTM before. If you haven't done it yet, you had better get a wriggle on.

The saves will be available once the timelock has been released tonight (19th September).

Here are some links you might find useful.

The original GOTM28 Announcement. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/gotm28_india.shtml)
The Draft Constitution (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1733966&postcount=61)
The GOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=71788)
SGOTM4 - Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=100194)
Download latest Save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php)
Upload a Save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm.php)

This Months' sponsored variant is 5 City Challenge the rules for which are as follows.

1. You may not end a turn with more than 5 cities.

Team Leaders: It would be a good idea to PM your team mates to get them all checked in here as soon as is possible. ;)

Good luck everyone! :)

What a stroke of good luck for me! You all are excellent players. Glad to be a part of the team.

checking in. good to have you along, bed head! your name is kinda how i look right now :lol:

My name is how I always look, due to showering before going to bed as opposed to after getting out of bed like most people.

Welcome to the scrum bed_head7 - nice to see some old friends back for another round of joy.

Now if only we could pull a rabbit (or a modern armor) out of our hat on SGOTM3.

Checking in. Welcome bed_head7! :clap:

Well let's see, R&L asked to be at the end. Just for variety why don't we have G-man lead us off this time and we'll sandwich bed head in the middle.

With only five cities, we'll want to really consider where we're going to place them. When I played this the first time, I sparked a despotic GA by building the Colossus, so that may be something to avoid.

Roster:

G-man - Up
Denyd
Bed Head
Bugs
R&L

ok, i play and post tonight :)

I never caught the difficulty level. What was decided uponfrom the voting?

I don't think they posted it. We'll be able to find out from the save.

difficulty level = monarch.

i have looked at the save but have not moved anything yet. it is clear from my monitor that there's a cow 2T SE of our present position. please post comments (esp bugs, our only know 5cc player).

edit: my thought is to move the settler NE 1T and settle there. worker can go to the river BG 1T E and mine it. this will give us a chop to stress out the 1st settler when our pop is about to reach 3.

IIRC - there was also a bonus food tile to the NE somewhere. If you make the right move, you can have two bonus food in your 21 tiles.
Looking back at my turn log from that game:
Move worker North. Move settler NE one tile to settle the capitol to grab the spices and cow. Go for Pottery at max. Then we get a second cow at settling. We can set up a four turn factory!

In this game obviously, a four turn factory won't be as important, but getting our five cities down ASAP will be. We need to look for variations between this map and the original GOTM map.. MB has been known to do that, plus reroll the resources.

I'd be interested to see if we're in the same location on the mini map as the original.

If we want to go for a cultural win, we need to think about where we want our 20K city. All things for the G-man to scope out.

Edit - We may want to get some military soon, if we're sharing a continent with X-man. In my GOTM I was at war with him by 2670 BC.

Preflight check: Worker E to BG, reveals coast. Settler NE. Seems we are Carthage, not the Indians :)
Vs. Indians, Greeks, Otto, Romans, Babylon, Persians, Vikings, Celts, and Germans.

T1: 3950BC Found Carthage, looks like we’ll get 2 cows and a spice with expansion -> warrior
Set research to Wheel at max so we know where the horses are located.

T2: 3900BC

T3: 3850BC

T4: 3800BC Worker Roads

IBT: warrior -> warrior

T5: 3750BC BubbaTM (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=165192&postcount=1) W to mountain, reveals more spices.

T6: 3700BC Worker to Cow, Bubba west

T7: 3650BC Bubba W finds coast

T8: 3600BC Bubba S

IBT: Warrior -> warrior

T9: 3550BC Bubba S, Curly N

T10: 3500BC Cow mined, now road it. Bubba S, Curly N.

T11: 3450BC Bubba SE (got mutton), Curly N

Warrior -> settler

T12: 3400BC Bubba S, Curly N, worker roads towards southern area, new warrior stays home.

T13: 3350BC Bubba SW, Curly E

T14: 3300BC Bubba S, Curly E to coast (sees whaletail, but this probably will miss our ideal location)

T15: 3250BC Bubba S, Curly W, worker SW.

T16: 3200BC Bubba S (sees red border, Rome?), Curly W, worker roads.

T17: 3150BC Bubba SW, Curly W

Settler -> warrior

T18: 3100BC Settler SE, worker mines BG, Bubba SW, Curly W (sees ivory)

T19: 3050BC Meet the Romans :) Trade: get BW for Mas and 5g. They are also up WC.
Bubba SW, Curly NW.

T20: 3000BC Settler S to spot for city. Bubba SW, sees Goody Hut, Curly N to look around the ivory for barb huts.

Wheel due in 4T @ +0gpt. Probably should go for IW next so we know where that is located, or we just go min writing and let Rome research it :)

Dotmap, open for debate. We can get 4 cities @ distance 5, with all of them being coast which isn’t so great.
The southern dot, mutton valley, probably will be replaced if we could get rid of the Romans, which I think we’ll need to do.
The NW one is a battle between too much tundra or coast. At least we can get 2spt from a forest on the Tundra, and the hills will be needed for production.
The NE one will sacrifice a BG. If we move the NE one W 1T, we should move the NW one SW 1T, but I think we’ll lose more land than we want.
Southern ones leave much to be desired as well but I think that's the land we have for now.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sgotm4-bugs-3000BC.jpg

Let's go for IW, we need to see where the iron is. Probably the same location in the south. So what's worse, Legions or Immortals? :crazyeye:

I like the spot where the settler stands. We can probably get some very fine shield production there. Should we start a pyramid pre-build or plan on a long war and fish for leaders?

The Dot at the mouth of the Mutton River I would put 1 SE to grab more grass and the mutton up in the mountians. I think that needs to be our third city with a heavy escort.

As for the two northern dots, I suppose the one to the NE will have higher food potential, but the NW will have higher shield production with the hills. Probably should go with the shields and take the NW dot.

We'll need to get used to the idea of sharing our home continent, but that doesn't mean we'll have to like it. I think some serious leader fishing will be in order.

I like the dot west of Carthage

maybe that dot W of carthage should be 1T S, otherwise it will share a tile with the capitol, or should we not worry about only 1T since the location will give us a good food/shield balance?

I think we can live with a one tile share amongst our five cities. More important is the fact that each city will be able to support the other cities nearby. A knight or a horse from Carthage will be able to get to three other cities in one turn.

We'll need to start planning on a leader fishing war starting in about 30 turns, or about the time R&L is up to bat.

BTW - roster check:

G-man - just played
Denyd - Up
Bed Head - On deck
Bugs
R&L

Looks like it's my turn. I got it and will play tonight.

A couple of random thoughts for future consideration:

1. It is possible to build a FP by settling a couple of cities, starting the FP and disbanding them during the same turn.

2. Normally the #2 is the best for the 20K city.

3. We should build colonies in the north to claim the tundra ivory.

4. Since war with Rome is inevitable, we should try to get it started before iron working is very well known and planting a city on the iron site is probably a good idea.

5. As for city locations, the 2 to the north are ok (but not very special) and so is the one to the far south. The middle one isn't worth spending a city spot on. I'd rather use a location further southeast.

6. As for research, I like the writing at minimum. If I remember correctly, there were no horses on this island and only a single iron to the SW (though MB might have changed that).

Yes it is possible to build the FP like that.

#2 will be a very good location for the 20K city.

In order to keep the colonies though , we'll probably have to run a block against settlers.

I don't think we should assume anything in regards to the location of resources, except that there is probably an iron source very close to Rome.

I don't think we should assume anything in regards to the location of resources, except that there is probably an iron source very close to Rome.i agree 100%. i think ainwood/cracker setup gotm 28 to let us come back via elephants. for a 5cc, i would think mb would make it playable by giving us at least 1 AA resource close by.

what is our goal here? 20k, diplomacy, space? 5ccc seems the hardest with all the landmasses out there so we should probably avoid it. do we need to take this entire island? if so, then that archer rush should be as big as we can make it. in 30 turns, we should try to have 2 more towns (4 total) with at least 2 making archers. we will need to road down to the romans as well or it'll take us forever to resupply troops. probably should pull an RoP rape on Rome if possible so they don't whip a spear or legion before the 1st attack. if we can kill off rome before MM, then our rep will be secure.

Is differential naval movement on in this game? If it is you can move from one continent to the other without MM. Rep protection may not be possible.

galleys need mapmaking, right? no dingys in ptw :)

Let's not forget cats. We know how helpful they are to us as the Romans. Just imagine if our attackers had them too. I think that we'll need them, especially with the mountains in between. At least we can put forted Nubians on the crests if we hurry. Otherwise, we won't get through.

NM's will trigger a ga, so we should avoid using them till we're at least out of despotism. if it gets desperate, then ok, but i'd avoid them for now. while they have the same defensive rating as pikes, they also cost the same (30 shields) which is another drawback in the early AA.

galleys need mapmaking, right? no dingys in ptw :)
Just slap me. I think I was thinking about that other civ game. :wallbash:

NM's will trigger a ga, so we should avoid using them till we're at least out of despotism. if it gets desperate, then ok, but i'd avoid them for now. while they have the same defensive rating as pikes, they also cost the same (30 shields) which is another drawback in the early AA.
The only defender we would have would be 1 defense then, horses, archers, warriors, I guess we'll need to find the iron and get swords.

I agree on avoiding the GA, and did think of that. I suppose that spears could hold up, especially in fortresses, not that we'll have time for that.

My thoughts on the dot map are below. I'd dump the one NE, and nove NW & SW as shown. This will better control the pass and the luxes. Add one in the area S. Don't forget that a city can be temporary and dropped later in favor of absorbing a city, say, Rome. I don't see a huge benefit to contiguous territory. Intersupportability would be good, but we could build fortresses as waystops if need be. Also, I think that we need to settle the city to the SW ASAP. I'm tempted to say now instead of city 2, with city 2 as city 3, lest we lose the sight to Rome.

Also, maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but wasn't Persia / Rome on the South edge of the map last time? It seems that our continent has shifted North.

To repeat an earlier question, any idea how I can clean out my inventory of submitted files?

I think you'll find it in the user CP
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/3kib.jpg

I think one of our problems is that the NumMerc is a replacement for the spear.

No wait!! It is a replacement for the pike. (Good thing I checked.)

R&L - the only thing I don't like about your NW city moving one SW of G-man's dot is that we gain three more coastal/sea tiles

I'm also not sure that moving the Mutton River city one east is going to have enough food. The spot 1E would have three grass and one mutton on plains. Moving it E-NE would give it one grass and the mutton.

I like the spot 1SE of G-man's spot. It would have five grass, the mutton, plus four coastal tiles. So between the mountains and the food sources we should be able to get some good shield production out of it.

Looking at that map reminds me what I did last time. I moved my original settler SW and founded city #2 on the coast by the river getting both cows. That became my 20K city with both cows, the river and coastal access, it was an unbeatable combo.

Any comments on where that settler is destined for? If I remember correctly there's not much along the eastern shore to warrant spending a city on.

X-post with Bugs: On my chart the NM is a spearman replacement. Has this been modded to replace a pike? That would delay access until the middle ages.

I think the plan was to build where he stands. Let's see you'd have seven mountains, three hills, three plains, three grass, three coastal and an oyster in a pear tree. :hmm:

I like RowAndLive's dot map except for the southwestern one, which I think should be on the coast. But that does put a lot of distance between that one and the city south of Carthage.

Moving 1 SE will also have 2 adjacent mountains on the side toward Rome, which isn't to my taste. You are right about the tiles. I was trying to tie up the mutton in the middle so as to avoid a Roman city in between. At my spot I count 3 hills, 2 grass & the mutton, after expansion. It's not great, but it's a good placeholder until we can abandon it in favor of conquered Rome. Once Rome is out of the way, we don't really need it except for keeping the AI out of the mountains.

i remember having that spot and that town didn't grow above size 5 for a long time. lot's of persian archers died against the walls though :) if we do get that spot, then invest as little as possible and abandon it later as R&L suggest. barracks + walls + library (for expansion and some research $$), but that should be it as it's a long term loser.

Since I just spent 2 ½ hours getting a toddler to sleep and then installing the SGOTM4 graphics pack, I’ll put this off until tomorrow.

While laying there trying to get junior to sleep I had plenty of time to think about this game and had a few thoughts on what we can do to improve our chances of victory.

First a review of where we are:
Tribe: Carthage traits are commercial and industrious
UU: Numidian Mercenary (2-3-1) for 30 shields replaces spearman and upgrades to musketman
We currently have 3 regular warriors (1 MP in Carthage, one to the far north and the third to the SE)
We also have a settler and a worker
We have found Spices & Ivory in nearby lands, but have not reached the techs for any strategic items
We got Masonry & Alphabet as starting techs, have researched pottery and are 4 turns from The Wheel
We have 5g in the treasury and are at 0gpt - we could get The Wheel in 3 at –1gpt
Our neighbor is Rome who is up Warrior Code on us and has 2 cities
The F10 list also shows India, Greece, Ottoman, Babylon, Persia, Vikings, Celts & Germans, which by my count is 5 scientific tribes.

Next is where are we going:
This is a very important discussion as it should determine how we play the first 100 turns or so.
To begin with, let’s eliminate Domination, 100K Culture and Histograph as possible victory conditions.
That leaves 20K Culture, Conquest, UN Vote and Space Race.

For 20K culture: We need to start researching to those culture wonders/improvements and get our 20K culture city building them. We’ll need a city to produce enough settlers to get our five cities built and another to build units to defend our empire. While it would be nice to get horses or iron, they are not a priority. Our UU will be a solid defender until muskets arrive. We need to decide on where that 20K city should be located and pick the AA wonders we want to try for. We will have to prioritize getting the Great Library with those five other scientific tribes in the game, if we want to stay close on research, but in general we want to slow the tech pace as much as possible.

For Conquest: We need to find where the iron/horses are ASAP and get a city built there. The other cities should concentrate on getting a barracks built and on building Vet units. Chariots if we have horses and Warriors if we don’t. Once IW & HBR are discovered we should beeline to Monarchy and then to Map Making. We’ll need to find the local AI’s and have galleys ready to move our troops to eliminate them. Playing a 5CC for a conquest win on an island map like this is doable, but difficult.

For Space Race: We want to push the tech pace with ourselves as the leading tech trader. We need to concentrate on money & tech improvements. Exploration in the AA is a key to getting an early tech & money lead. We’ll need to shoot for the science boosting wonders (Copernicus & Newton) to try to keep up the Tech oriented tribes.

For Diplomatic: It’s a combination of Mr. Nice Guy, sharing techs & luxuries with everyone and Mr. Science Trader, wheeling and dealing to stay current with tech until the TOE slingshot gives us a tech lead that can be parlayed with a smart pre-build to get the UN built. Then using alliances to get the needed votes to win.

Notice that each of these options will require a different mind-set and different priorities. Before we go any further, we need to decide on a victory goal and map out a strategy (with options) to get there.

Mad-Bax has given us a tough neighbor in the Romans, though the Legionary isn’t any tougher than a normal swordsman, Caesar is normally an aggressive neighbor. Our UU’s defense should allow us to hold our own in battle. The important thing to decide is what path we will choose to follow.

good points denyd, but i thought i traded for BW, not pottery? :crazyeye: hope i didn't screw that up. now i'm not sure, because rome starts with alpha and WC, so i don't know how they got BW or pottery so fast unless someone else is down there.

for VC's, my vote is 20k or UN. current location for the 2nd may be food deprived (3 grass + 3 plains (irrigated) will be 12fpt in despot or 15fpt in republic = 7 to 8 citizens with City Center and without a harbor). it also has those oyster or whatever so maybe that'll help as well. not sure how much food that gives with a harbor. however, if we do have BW, it can build the Colossus and is on a river so may be able to get up to size 12 quickly with a granery.

I'm thinking that conquest is out. Although doable & difficult, it does not seem to match our strength, which keep getting stated as our being builders. As such, that would match 20K, Diplo or Space. Space is a long haul, and so leaves more chances for losing wars, matched with 5CC which makes us especially vulnerable to attacks, and possibly slower on production when we're running for parts, which drops the chance of space. Neither is 20K or Diplo a quick win, but they can be somewhat interchangeable in the early game, provided we're still going for wonders.

Persians, Vikings, Germans & Romans with Celts in the second string means that this will be an "active" game, and passifistic may not be possible, lest we end up at the bottom of a dogpile.

I think 20K, with a bail-out to Diplo.

Conquest is very doable. Especially on a 'pelago map. We could possibly get an early victory date - 1600 AD or so. Completely different mindset.

With a 20K victory, you need to get as many wonders as possible. You can do it the hard way and build each from scratch, or you can go fishing with leaders. In that case, we'd actually want to keep an ironless Rome around as long as possible and just maximize elite victories.

I'd prefer not to go the space race, since we won that way in SGOTM1. Conquest or 20K would be OK with me.

R&L has a good point, our strength is building.

So decision #1 is 20K Culture with Diplomacy as a fall back

Now for research. Let's complete The Wheel, even without any horses available, it's still valuable for trading. One thing I remember about this game is that with only a single neighbor, everything was valued as either first or second level knowledge, which drove the price up. I think G-Man is right and we had Bronze Working not Pottery (should have just gone to bed instead of looking around while tired). As of right now, if we settle on the coast, we could build Colossus or we could start the Pyramids. There are no other cultural items available. I'm thinking we need either writing (library) or ceremonial burial (temple). Rome is probably going for Iron Working, so I suggest writing and using it as trade bait (with The Wheel) for Iron Working. The while the library is being built research Literature for the Great Library. Hopefully we'll be able to trade for Ceremonial Burial along the way. The capital (or city #2) should probably pump out 3 more settlers then a barracks and defenders for the 20K city. Those other 3 cities should be concerned with building support for the 20K city such as defenders and workers to improve the 20K city terrain and to be joined to the 20K city. We might find it best to have a despotic GA if it means we get the Great Library in our 20K city.

Now the tough question: Where is the best place for the 20K city to be founded (or is it the capital?) ? It would be nice if the 20K was on a river (no aqueduct and can build Hoover) and had plenty of grassland for feeding the people. Coastal access, while nice isn't that big a deal as only 3 Wonders (GLH, Magellan & Colossus) need sea access. We'll need to be sure to secure the spices & ivory to keep the people in the 20K city happy.

I think the spot the settler is standing on can be our wonderland. I would go for Colossus first due to its cheapness.

I am all for 20k. I actually have never had a Civ3/PTW 20k win, while I've had a few C3C 20k wins.

I think starting out going for 20K is wise. If the situation goes in the dumper, we can shift to diplo, and if all else fails we can conquer the world. :devil2:

THE LINK (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bugsy_SG004_BC2550_01.SAV)

Turn Log 1

Turn 0 – 3000 BC – Reset to my personal preferences – Increase science to 90% to get The Wheel 1 turn earlier (now –1gpt)

IBT: Ana (worker) completes mine

Turn 1 – 2950 BC – Settler founds Utica starts Colossus (due in 100) - Ana moves to plains to road & irrigate for Utica – Bubba SW next to goody hut – Curly N finds top of island and 2 more ivory – Slider to 50% science still gets The Wheel in 2 (now +3gpt) – Decide to change Carthage to barracks (we don’t really need any move regular units) – Send Moe (warrior) from Carthage to Utica

IBT: Nothing

Turn 2 – 2900 BC – Ana starts irrigation – Bubba pops the Goody Hut and finds 3 nasty barbarians – Curly coming back to Carthage

IBT: Bubba (3/3) defends against one Barbarian Warrior (BW) – Discover The Wheel research Writing at 20% due in 40 (best possible is 37 at 90%)

Turn 3 – 2850 BC – Bubba E trying to get away from BW – Curly S – Moe reaches Utica

IBT: Ana completes irrigation

Turn 4 – 2800 BC – Bubba E into Roman lands – Ana starts road – Moe MP in Utica – Curly S completes western coastal survey – Trade The Wheel + 4gpt + 10g to Rome for Worker + Warrior Code – Gina (Roman worker) moves to connect spices

IBT: Caesar complains about Bubba – Carthage grows to size 2

Turn 5 – 2750 BC – Bubba S spots a wool in Roman lands – Gina starts road – Curly S

IBT: BW chasing Bubba – Ana completes road

Turn 6 – 2710 BC – Bubba S finds Rome has 2 more wool – Ana moves to next plains – Curly SE

IBT: Nothing

Turn 7 – 2670 BC – Ana starts irrigation – Curly SE – Bubba SE

IBT: Caesar kicks Bubba out (the wrong way :sad: ) – Gina finishes road segment

Turn 8 – 2630 BC – Bubba SW down the coast – Gina moves to Spices – Curly SE

IBT: Roman Warriors go barb hunting – BW pillages a Roman road – Carthage builds barracks starts settler – Ana completes irrigation

Turn 9 – 2590 BC – Curly E – Gina starts road – Ana starts road - Bubba SW

IBT: Nothing

Turn 10 – 2550 BC – Bubba SW – Curly MP in Carthage

Utica will grow to size 2 next turn – once Ana has irrigated & roaded the other plains, we should probably have her join Utica – Carthage will grow in 2 and get a settler shortly thereafter – building another worker (or 2 to replace Ana) before building a couple of NM’s (letting Carthage grow) before pumping out the last 2 settlers. We’ll probably disband Moe, Curly & Bubba once we have to start paying unit support. Nothing really happening on the diplomatic front – Remember, we need to do whatever it takes to make Utica the culture capital of the world

I got it. We'll see if I can finish tonight, but maybe not since I've got some biology to do.

Definitely join Ana to Utica. Do not join our slave to the city. We might want to consider cranking out another worker from Carthage and join it to Utica as well.

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Bugsy_SG004_BC2150.SAV)

2510 BC (1) - Utica grows, Colossus in 60.

2470 BC (2) - Nothing.

2430 BC (3) - More nothing.

IT - Romans get Iron Working.

2390 BC (4) - Settler due next turn.

2350 BC (5) - Spices hooked up, settler complete, worker started.

2310 BC (6) - Ana joined Utica, Colossus in 41.

2270 BC (7) - Settler in place per RowAndLive's dot map.

2230 BC (8) - Leptis Magna founded. Of course, there will never be a Leptis Minor, so now it is just Leptis.

2190 BC (9) - Forgot to mention, Leptis is working on Barracks. I didn't know what else to build, but since denyd mentioned disbanding the warriors when we get hit for unit upkeep, I am not sure that this was the right move. Of course, the next player can change it.

2150 BC (10) - Barbs approaching from the north. Leptis changed to warrior, Gina (worker) runs moves away since the warrior won't finish in time. Oops, just wasted two worker turns. I brought the warrior from Carthage over to protect, but it is already too late.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bugsy_sg004_2150BC.jpg

:hmm: Rome already has IW, and we're 23 turns away from writing. I hope he doesn't go after it and further erode the value...

I haven't pulled it, but from just a glance, Utica is going for growth before switching to mines? 2 BGs at Carthage not hooked up, please remedy.

Any way to spend the money before it gets sacked?

we only have 1 citizen in carthage, the river mine is a BG, and the cow is mined so we should be good till the next settler if we time it right.
what happened to the oysters that were on my map? bedhead, did you play with the proper mod's? try to verify via MB's test, i had to update my installation even though i had all the gotm mod's already installed.

Guide to 5cc (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=44458)

I have it. I'll get it played during lunch so maybe R&L can grab it tonight.

As a heads up - I'll be gone from Oct 6-11 (for a class reunion)

As for Utica, my hope was to get it to size 6 ASAP. With spices + 2 content and 3 MP that's all the city can handle pre-temple without luxury tax being needed. If we mine the 2 hills that's about 10spt. which should give us a chance for Colossus & Great Library. When we get all the usable tiles (1 per citizen), we should think about roading to those ivory and setting up a pair of colonies (1 for trade to Rome).

Yes, I was planning a barracks in city #3 (Leptis) so we could get a couple of vet NM for defense in Utica in case Rome comes calling. Normally, I try to avoid an AA GA, but if we could get those two early wonders and maybe another culture building (library or temple) it might be worth it.

Go Bugs Go - Build, Build, Build

I wasn't certain, but it must be the case that PTW needs the mods too. I'll still have install those.

Thanks for the strategy, Denyd.

I'll be out of play 9/30 - 10/11, inclusive, back on 10/12.

The plan, I thought, was to get Utica up in size before switching to the focus on production. grahamiam already responded to the BG comment as I would have. And I think I have the mods are set up as they are supposed to be now.

Pre-flight – Switch Carthage to a warrior. Paper cut outs will work fine for the moment. Nothing else happening.

IBT – We get a break when the barb moves towards an empty Carthage instead of Leptis.

1. 2110 BC – Utica grows, Colossus due in 29. Rome has a third city.

IBT – Carthage: warrior=>archer

2. 2070 BC – Our entire economy is doubtful on getting IW from Rome.

IBT – Leptis: warrior=>barracks

3. 2030 BC – Bubba knocks over a barb hut and collects 25G. We can now buy IW for our entire economy.

IBT – We get some nice steps for the cave.

4. 1990 BC – New warrior Guido, breaks a barb’s thumbs.
5. 1950 BC – The Romans have founded Cumae over by the hill that the iron was on last time. So I need to buy IW. Suck it up and spend 124G & 7gpt on IW. Nope, this time the iron is right next to Rome. :rolleyes: And of course, there isn’t any more in sight.

6. 1910 BC – Nada.

IBT – The Romans begin the Pyramids.

7. 1870 BC – Nada.

IBT – Carthage: Archer=>settler

8. 1830 BC - Nada
9. 1790 BC – Guido goes to attack a barb camp and my machine locks up. Guido stands there with his axe in the air until I ctrl-alt-del. When I restart, Guido meets an untimely end. Our new archer does kill a barb. Carthage is now set up with 5 extra fpt.
10. 1750 BC – Start mining down by Utica.

After Action – Rome doesn’t have anything to trade. Colossus is due in 20, but that will be cut as it grows next turn. After the worker mines and roads, join it to Utica.

After we get two more settlers out of Carthage we need to make it a worker factory, at least for a while.

The good news is that Rome doesn’t have its iron hooked up yet. The bad news is that it will take a total of 6 workers turns.

I would make Leptis and our fourth city strictly military cities. At least for a while.

No screen shot as nothing has changed.

Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bugsy_SG004_BC1750_01.SAV

Looks like Bed Head and I will be the only ones around for the whole time.

got it...........

1750 – 0
Reset Prefs.
Rome has 4 cities to our 3, and 289g to our 30g. Our military is weak.
Still following the basic strategy from post # 40.

1725 – 1
Fletch N, Bubba N

1700 – 2
Fletch NE, Bubba N

IBT: Carthage settler > archer in 5

1675 – 3
settler SE, Bubba N, Fletch NE

IBT: Caesar demand 21g – we give in.

1650 – 4
Fletch N -0 disperses BC for 25g, settler S-2SW, Bubba NE

1625 – 5
Fletch SW -2 kills BW, Gina W-SW, Bubba N, settler 2SW
Change Carthage to warrior in 1 from Archer in 3.

IBT: Carthage warrior > settler in 8

1600 – 6
Fletch S, Gina mines, Ed rests, Holly roads, Bubba N, settler S

1575 – 7
Fletch rests, Ed SE, settler W sees red BW 2SW, Bubba NW

IBT: BW appears N of settler, wounded BW heals & SE

1550 – 8
Fletch rests, Ed S-2SW, settler SE, Bubba NW

IBT: Leptis rax > NM in 8

1525 – 9
Fletch SW, vWarrior W-SW from Utica, Ed to Utica, settler rests, Bubba N to join, Holly NW-N
MM Utica to cut Colossus build by 1 turn.

IBT: BW SE to attack vWarrior across river on hill – vet -2 & BW dies. Other BW NE to plains. 3rd BW appears NNW of Fletch.

1500 – 10
Change Leptis to Archer in 4, as NM is undesireable at this point.
Fletch NW, Bubba & settler W to founding point
Holly & 2/4 vWarrior available to move

- Utica choice is growth in 2 & colossus in 7 or growth in 3 & complete in 6 without worker joining. I’m not joining the worker due to the potential for growth to 6 in 2, but did MM for growth in 4 & Colossus in 7 (now grow in 3 & Colossus in 6). That will also give Bugs more time to plan for the unhappiness in Utica after growth, since it is break-even now.
- Carthage has settler due in 1, with growth in 1 & should stay happy.
- Leptis set to Archer in 4, but should be changed if appropriate.
- Given our weakness relative to Rome, we need to decide whether we’re going the strong route with a plan to take out Rome, or a weak route with max trading & hoping to keep Rome happy. If strong, then need to push mil units.

No image, as I’ve got shadows only, no new resources.

I'm not sure who's available to play:

G-man - Vacation
Denyd - Vacation? If not up
Bed head - Up or on deck
Bugs
R&L

I'm here until Oct 6th, so I got it.

I'm thinking it's more important to claim Colossus than worry about growth, so I'll MM that direction. As far as I can tell, we don't have any other culture items to go for. Hopefully Rome will hurry up and research ceremonial burial so we can trade for it. Writing should be coming in soon. I'd like to delay trading it to Rome for IW until I can get a second tech (CB) for it. I'll start research on Literature and once Colossus is done, that city will begin the Great Library pre-build. The rest of the cities are set to support Utica. I'm going to see if I can get a couple of NM's complete. Without iron those warriors we've been building will never be of any use (besided MP duty).

IIRC, writing is now due in 2-4.

As far as MM for Colossus, that's what I did, except for joining the worker. I was thinking we're limited to size 6, but forgot about the river until just now. Regardless, you'll only gain 1 more spt by joining, unles effected by corruption.

I agree on the warriors, but had thought from earlier posts that we wanted to avoid NM's so as to avoid an early GA. Are you thinking differently now? Militarily, we're currently in lousy shape, and have no possibility of elephants this time around, without swords, we've got precious little for offense.

I can see the argument either way. Build NMs and don't worry about a GA, don't build NMs and try and hold off the GA. I think the GL pre-build will be very good. I think we need to build our military and think about some leader fishing.

Leader fishing will require archers or NM at this point. Might as well use archers, and hold off the GA as long as possible. I guess I need to give in the getting NMs onto the mountain tops before Rome puts Legions there. Given that we're weak, and he's already demanding, we're in for a world of hurt if we don't move soon.

Also, it bugs me that I couldn't get that city founded before the change of hands, especially due to a few lousy BWs. It would have been nice for the turn chart.

This is really a silly question, but where is the link to the page showing current results for this & the last SGTOM?

It used to be in MB's signature, but he's changed it and I'm not sure where to find the link.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php

You can find it in his first post here, but not in the sig. It's higher up. AlanH also has it in his sig.

Sorry I got sidetracked by RL last night. Should be able to get it done tonight.

Still planning:
Research: Writing->Literature (then where?)
Utica builds: Complete Colossus then Palace as Great Library pre-build

I'll probably have Carthage build a couple of workers to send north to setup ivory colonies. One for happy people and the other to give/sell to Rome to help his attitude.

I'm thinking we want to get to Republic early in case Rome decides to start something. (don't want a despotic GA).

I'm thinking we might be able to get Colossus, Great Library & Hanging Gardens from the Ancient Age. The problem there is whether to research to Monarchy instead of Republic. I really don't want 2 anarchy periods in a 20K attempt, so one path might make the other too late to work. (help me on this?)

I'd go for Republic as a government. 5CC will help keep unrest down to a certain extent, while keeping unit support high. Since we're going 20K, Republic is better. We'd have to go for Monarchy just to get HG, but without the government.

In GK1 (5CC Non-oscillating War) we went to Republic and stayed there the whole time. I think the highest our lux went was 30%.

I started to play and realized I had no idea where we want the fifth city to be. I'm thinking in the NE corner by all the BG. but there are also arguments for by the Ivory, on the western coast and SW of where city 4 is about to be founded (in Mutton Valley). I'll leave this until we have a chance to discuss it.

My vote had been for the SW, but I only saw regular grass in the NE, not BG. Then again, a city to the SW may just turn out to be an early donation to Rome. Without it, we may face a flip risk for Mutton valley - depends on how quick we plan on eliminating Rome.

Without horses or iron (or war elephants), it could be quite a while before we have any kind of attack force. Being a 5CC, unless we plan on abandoning any of our original cities, I'm not sure why we'd even want to go to war with Rome.

As for locations the spot 4N/1W of Carthage would start with 1BG and after expansion have 5BG within his primary tiles. As for the western spot, location, there is a spot that to the west that would get a BG and would claim the final spice on expansion and while the terrain isn't very good the ivory to the north would be a nice asset. I agree with your thoughts on the SW city and should just concede all the land S of the mountains to Rome.

Here's a marked up copy of a prior posted screenshot (forgot to take my own last night)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bugsy_sg004_1500BC.jpg

My preference would be the blue X. Anything south (not shown) has nothing to add, the pink isn't bad, but the blue is better (imho).

I like the blue X. That could be very productive for us.

I like those spots, although the mutton would have been nice to have. Perhaps abandon Mutton valley now or later, and build a road to Rome, colonize the wool, boxing it out with 3-4 placeholder warriors to keep Rome from founding and grabbing it without expansion or declaring on us. In the mean time, get some good defenders on those mountains.

Incidentally, and not that it will impact us that much, M-B noted in the maintenance thread that the iron has been made inexhaustable. This would help prevent unbalance between the teams. EIther way the Romans could still be a pain throughout the AA.

The Romans can be beaten. They'll be a pain, but they can be beaten. I think a heavy archer rush is in order.

Turn 0 – 1500 BC – Reset to my personal preferences – Send Holly to connect next city

IBT: Bubba (3/3) defends against BW attack – Carthage builds final settler starts Numidian Mercenary

Turn 1 – 1475 BC – Fletch (4/4) kills BW – (save game to check out location for final city) – I’m back with where city 5 goes – Settler sent to city site – Ed MP in Utica – Conan (Warrior) heading to Utica – Settler founds Theveste starts walls – Bubba W to check out the coast – Curly sent to escort Settler

IBT: Nothing happens

Turn 2 – 1450 BC – Fletch N finds a Barb Village (BV) – Gina starts road – Holly N to grassland – Conan reaches Utica and MP – Ed sent to MP for Carthage – Curly gains on settler – Settler NW

IBT – Discover Writing research Literature at 50% (-3gpt) due in 25 turns – Utica grows to size 6

Turn 4 – 1425 BC – Fletch (3/4) kills BW (+25g) – Curly & Settler join up – Holly starts road – Luxury to 10% to prevent Utica riot – Bubba MP in Thevseste – Ed reaches Carthage

IBT: Leptis builds Archer starts worker

Turn 5 – 1400 BC – Orion (Archer) heads east – Fletch rests – Curly NE finds a BW & a BV – Settler waits for Orion – Ed MP in Carthage – Rome now up Horseback Riding & Pottery

IBT: BW runs away

Turn 6 – 1375 BC – Fletch SE – Curly (2/4) kills BV (+25g) and promotes, also finds another 2 BW – Orion & Settler NE – Holly starts mine – Gina moves to connect next city

IBT: Utica builds The Colossus – starts palace (Great Library pre-build)

Turn 6 - 1350 BC – Settler & Curly reach city site – Gina moves to connect next city – Orion chasing settler – Up science to 80% (-1gpt) to get Literature in 13

IBT: BW runs away – Carthage builds Numidian Mercenary (NM) starts another – Leptis builds a worker starts NM

Turn 7 – 1325 BC – Fletch NW keeping the barbs away – Settler founds Hippo starts worker – Orion reaches Hippo – Curley MP in Hippo – Gina starts road – Achilles (NM) sent to Utica – Bee (Worker) N to chop for Leptis – Rome has founded Pompeii next to our SE city site – Rome now with 7 cities

IBT: Orion (2/4) defends Hippo from BW – Palace Expansion #1 is a lawn for our cave

Turn 8 – 1300 BC – Orion rests to heal – Fletch hangs out preventing BW – Bee starts chop – Holly moves to connect Theveste – Achilles heading to Utica – Buy Ceremonial Burial from Rome for 75g – Switch Utica to Temple (this is up for discussion)

IBT: BW approaches Hippo

Turn 9 – 1275 BC – Orion fortifies to complete healing – Fletch hangs out – Achilles MP in Utica – Moe heading for Leptis – Holly moves to hill to start roading to Theveste

IBT: BW fortifies

Turn 10 – 1250 BC – Orion (4/4) kills BW – Fletch S – Gina complete road moves to connect Hippo – Moe reaches Carthage – Ed leaves Carthage for Leptis - Holly starts road

Basic information:
Carthage size 4 building NM due in 1 has barracks
Utica size 6 building Temple due in 5 has Colossus
Theveste size 1 building Walls due in 1
Leptis size 1 building NM due in 12 has barracks
Hippo size 1 building Worker due in 7

Science: Literature researching at 80% due in 8 (breaking even with 101g in treasury)

Military:
2 Workers + 1 Slave
5 Warriors (4 vet)
2 Vet Archers
1 Vet NM

A couple of decisions:
1.Should Theveste switch from walls (due next turn) for temple (due in 21)
2.Should Utica complete the temple (due in 7) before starting GL pre-build
3.Should Utica switch to palace then build a library before starts GL
4.How soon before getting an Ivory colony setup
5.Should we hurry up and connect spices to sell to Rome (+500g)
6.How about 2 Ivory colonies and selling 1 to Rome
7.Is Map Making the next tech after Literature or head to Monarchy
8.Rome is up Horseback Riding & Pottery, do we need either yet

I tried to upload a pair of pictures, but something went wrong so I attached them

Let's let that temple in Utica complete. Then go for GL (6 cpt).
I think an ivory colony as soon as possible is a good thing.
I think getting the extra spices and Ivory set up and selling them is a good idea.
Let's go for Monarchy and the HG after Literature. The HG is 4 cpt. Maybe we can squeeze a library in there.
We should consider building a worker or two and adding them to Utica for greater production. We want to get it up to size 12 with fully improved tiles ASAP.

Keep building archers, we'll need to go leader fishing soon.

G-man - vacation
Denyd - Just played
Bed Head - up
Bugs - on deck
R&L - Going on vacation

A couple of decisions:
1.Should Theveste switch from walls (due next turn) for temple (due in 21)
2.Should Utica complete the temple (due in 7) before starting GL pre-build
3.Should Utica switch to palace then build a library before starts GL
4.How soon before getting an Ivory colony setup
5.Should we hurry up and connect spices to sell to Rome (+500g)
6.How about 2 Ivory colonies and selling 1 to Rome
7.Is Map Making the next tech after Literature or head to Monarchy
8.Rome is up Horseback Riding & Pottery, do we need either yet


First off, thanks for the maps. They worked out fine.

My input:
1. No. Do the walls first, then the temple.
2. Temple first, then GL pre-build. cpt-compounding is good.
3. No. I think we'll be tight on the GLib as it is. Do GLib first.
4. The sooner the better. Even at 10%, cash + trading is better than lux.
5. Yes, please. That may help to keep them from expanding over us when room runs out.
6. Definitely, yes, please. :)
7. If we have items to trade, then MM. If we don't get contact early, we risk falling behind. Not firm, but my opinion.
8. HBR would be nice, especially to know if we have access to horses. For a mobile defense if nothing else.

Got it. Since we don't really need granaries and I think the wheel shows horses, I doubt I'll make any trade. Other than that I'll go along with everything RowAndLive and Bugsy said.

Granaries would be nice to have buildings. Sometime if we can squeeze them in, but not now.

hi, not back but lurking

my vote for the temple vs glib prebuild it glib prebuild. remember, after we research lit, it makes the tech cheaper for the ai so it's more likely to research it or extort it from us. based on the time to build the temple, i think we are only doing 8 or 9spt at that sight, and even a monarch ai could catch us at that rate.

the scenario i fear is that rome extorts lit from us soon after we learn it, then we cannot beat them by tripping our ga since they have an aa uu as well.

as far as the next tech to research, rome will likely research MM after writing so my vote is anything other than mm (maybe math or CoL) and then trade for MM.

good luck bedhead. btw, i would only do a granery in carthage. we can quickly pump up the pop in the other cities via workers from carthage as it's very food positive with the 2 cows.

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Bugsy_SG004_BC1000.SAV)

1250 BC (0) - Everything looks good. I am now undecided on Temple or GLib, since Gram mentioned the possibility of missing out on it. At least there are a few turns left in which I can make a decision. I actually end up changing Leptis to worker. I'd like to join a few to Utica by the end of my turns.

1225 BC (1) - I think I'll stick with temple. And cancel the above about joining more than one worker. We do need another worker though to mine a hill in Utica's radius.

1200 BC (2) - Beginning road on spices.

1175 BC (3) - Carthage builds worker, starts archer

1150 BC (4) - Temple next turn.

1125 BC (5) - Temple completes, Pyramids as GLib prebuild.

1100 BC (6) - Utica grows to 7, worker joined, Utica gets 11spt - 2swpt, so we didn't hit the magic ten spt yet. GLib in 44.

1075 BC (7) - Theveste connected to capital by road, but it will still be a few before we can even possibly connect to Rome.

1050 BC (8) - Literature finishes, Mysticism in 4 at -3gpt. We are shooting for Monarchy next, so I hope this was the right move.

1025 BC (9) - Begin roading towards Ivory.

1000 BC (10) - Cancel the road. There is a new barb camb in the tundra. And that is it.

Not particulary eventful. We need another mined hill in Utica and then to join it to get it to size 9, which is the best we can do at this point with no harbor. I held off on buying pottery though the granary definitely would come in handy in Carthage. Not particularly eventful.

Not eventful, but certainly important building turns. Nice turns. Glad to see that we're on the road to GLib. If it hasn't been done, the next player should change the prebuild to GLib. Perhaps we should pump mil units to try and short circuit the extortion attempt for lit?

I have it.

@ Denyd - R&L - when are you guys going on holiday?

I'm here until Tuesday night (leaving Wed AM) and will be back on the night of the 11th (so could start up again on the 12th).

Nice turnset bed_head7 - We probably need to send Fletch & Orion back to the NW to keep those barbs from returning. Once Map Making is available I expect Rome to try and found a city for the Ivory. If we found colonies on each of the ivory, we might be able to block the other landing spots with archers and protect the ivory for a while.

I agree it's time to go the the Great Library. We need to get some NM to the southern towns ASAP in case Rome demands Literature. If he gets Map Making before demanding it, I think we should trade right away. He's busy building the Pyramids in is strongest town, so unless some beats him to it and there's a cascade our head start should allow us to get it built first.

I'm leaving tomorrow AM, early, and will be returning home on 10/11. I should be available to play again beginning 10/12.

We should definitely push the colonies, and get trading going. I'm not sure on how the code works, but it makes sense to me that they probably programmed it so that the AI only pursue luxes that they need. If we are supplying them with ivory and spices, then they have no need, and may not pursue it at all except for the value in planting cities.

Pre-flight – Change Utica to GL. Science down 10%.

IBT - Leptis: NM=> archer

1. 975 BC – Science down another 20%.

IBT – Myst=>Poly 90% due in 11 turns.
Carthage: Archer=>archer

2. 950 BC – Sell Myst to Rome for Pottery & 61G.
3. 925 BC – Nada

IBT – A vet warrior loses to a barb warrior
Carthage: Archer=>archer

4. 900 BC
5. 875 BC

IBT – Archer kills barb warrior
Carthage: archer=>worker
Leptis: Archer=>Library

6. 850 BC – Compared to Rome we now have a strong military. Caesar now has MM. Lux up 10% for a turn.

IBT – Carthage: worker=>archer
Hippo: worker=>barracks

7. 825 BC – Lux down 10%.

IBT – Lose an archer to a barb horse.

8. 800 BC – Join a worker to Utica to cut five turns off the GL. That’s all we can do until we get out of Depotism. Lux goes back up.

IBT – Carthage: archer=>archer

9. 775 BC –

IBT – Vikings build the Pyramids

10. 750 BC –

After Action – We have a force six archers ready to march on Rome. I would raze Pompeii and maybe Antium, then wait in the mountains to fish for leaders. As you get a large enough force, march on Rome and grab that iron.

I would hold off selling anything to Rome until we get the Library.

I couldn’t get the save on the SGOTM server, can’t post it on the uploads server. :hmm:

Here's the save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bugsy_SG004_BC0750_01.SAV

I think I'm up (if G-man is still on vacation). I'll check in before starting to make sure he hasn't picked up yet.

So I guess I get the honor of facing of Legions with Archers (that sounds like a lot of fun)

Denyd, please take it. It will just be you, me and Bed Head until the G-man comes back.

I got tied up with RL & JumpMaster1A and didn't get to this tonight. I'll play tomorrow.

Turn Log 3

Turn 0 – 750 BC – Reset to my personal preferences

IBT: Carthage Archer->Archer – Theveste Temple->Archer – Rome starts the Oracle

Turn 1 – 730 BC – Send new archer towards the front – 6th archer joins stack, I’ll declare next turn – NM moves towards Ivory – worker pair starts mine

IBT: Roman workers move into view

Turn 2 – 710 BC – archers heading to the front – workers building roads and mines – decide to wait to declare and will trade for Roman techs

IBT: Discover Polytheism research Monarchy – Carthage Archer->Archer

Turn 3 – 690 BC – NM discovers a BV – Workers roading to Ivory – Workers building mines – Archers heading to the front – Trade Polytheism + 65g to Rome for Map Making – Declare war on Rome – Capture 2 Roman slaves

IBT: Remaining Roman workers run and hide in Pompeii

Turn 4 – 670 BC – Assault on Antium: Fletch (2/4) kills Reg Spear – Archer (1/4) kills Reg Spear – Orion (4/4) kills Reg Archer and auto-razes Antium netting 26g – 3 Archers move to Pompeii – 3 Archers heading for Hispalis – 2 Slaves heading to core – Workers roading to ivory – NM kills BV +25g – Switch Hippo to galley

IBT: Roman Archer leaves Hispalis – Carthage Archer-> Archer

Turn 5 – 650 BC – 3 Archers approach Hispalis – Archer heads to Utica to intercept Roman Archer (we don’t want to have an NM win yet) – Slaves reach Theveste – Wounded Archers move to mountains to heal – 3 Archers reach Pompeii

IBT: Reg Archer (2/3) kills our Vet Archer on a mountain (I hate the RNG) – Athens builds the Oracle

Turn 6 – 630 BC – Assault on Hispalis: Vet Archer loses to Reg Spear (1/3) – Vet Archer (2/4) kills Reg Spear and auto-razes Hispalis (+27g) – Archer reaches Theveste – Slaves heading to the core – workers build 2 road segments – Wounded Archers rest - Assault on Pompeii: Vet Archer loses to Reg Spear (1/3) – Vet Archer (3/5) kills Reg spear and promotes – Vet Archer (3/4) kills Reg Spear and Pompeii auto-razes gaining 1 slave + 29g

IBT: Carthage Archer->Archer – Theveste Archer->Archer

Turn 7 – 610 BC – Archers healing and regrouping for next assaults – Workers road towards ivory – slaves head to the core – Rome will give Math & HBR + (3 cities or 250g) for peace – I’m going to wait, I’d like to have him win with a Legion first then use his GA during the peace period

IBT: Decline to meet with Caesar

Turn 8 – 590 BC – Change Carthage to Library (I’m going to chop and don’t want to waste it on Archers) – Road to ivory is complete, colonies next turn – Archers heal and regroup

IBT: Roman Warrior appears

Turn 9 – 570 BC – Workers reach ivory – Archers grouping up – A pair of archers heads the Roman Archer

IBT: Roman Archer (1/4) kills Vet Archer (on a mountain) – Archer (3/4) defends against a Roman Warrior – Hippo galley->barracks

Turn 10 – 550 BC – Vet Archer (4/4) kills Roman Archer – Marco (Galley) heading north around the island – BTW: Advanced Naval Movement is on for this game – Stack of 6 archers waiting for 7th to reach them before advancing – A pair of ivory colonies are founded – If you want peace with Rome we can get Math + HBR + Worker + 175g

I’d suggest waiting until we lose to our first legion before taking peace. We have a choice of going after Rome or Cumae – I’d suggest Cumae as I’d expect at least 3+ spears in Rome3

If we take Rome, what city should we abandon to keep it?

EDIT: IF I COULD EVER FIND THE BLEEPING LINK TO THE SUBMISSIONS PAGE I'D BE HAPPY TO SUMBIT THIS (yes I meant to shout)

looks good gents :thumbsup: way to put the :hammer: on rome :)

The link to the submissions page is in post 1 of this thread. You can bookmark it if you like ;)

G-man are you back? If so you can play. If not Bed Head will be up.

I think we need to do some leader fishing. Bed Head, are you familiar with how to do that? SirPleb has a very good article in the war academy on how to fish for leaders if you aren't.

We have a choice at this point. For some reason, Rome has yet to build any Legions.

1) We could go for the capital and Iron, that would render him pretty much impotent if we took it, however, if we lost our attacking force we'd have little to counter any attacks. Rome is a size 6 city, with at least 3 spears defending. We could go directly to the iron and disconnect it, then it would be archer vs archer & spear.

2) We could go down the western Roman coast razing Cumae and the other cities in counterclockwise direction. Doing this would weaken Rome, but after Cumae, the next cities are pretty far from our support, so reinforcements would take quite a while to arrive.

3) We could withdraw to the mountains and kill approaching attackers in a defensive mode.

4) We could settle for peace and take the additional techs and move on.

My choice is a combination of 1 & 4 - I think we should take a shot at capturing Rome. If we get it, we'll have iron and Rome can then be handled at our leisure. If we fail, we could fall back on 4 and take the techs & 3 cities (which we'd raze) and build up for the next attack. We wouldn't have to wait the full 20. If we eliminate Rome, our bad deeds would die with them. If Rome builds a Legion and it wins, we should sign peace and let them use their GA during peace time rather than building legions to send our way.

As a reminder, I'm out until Oct 12th, so I'll need a skip if you happen to get back to me by then.

I like going right at Rome. We have Caesar hurting enough that he'll pay for peace. Getting iron would be huge. I would abandon our Mutton Valley city and keep Rome.

If we can get Rome, we should stay at war with Caesar forever and leave him with a few cities. When he sends a unit out, we attack with an elite and hope for a leader. The leader then rushes a wonder in Utica.

Yes, I am familiar, and I have read the article. I am not the best at it, but I am familiar. I'll try to squeeze this in tonight or tomorrow, but I seem to have come up at the same time in all my SGs. If grahamiam is back, he can take it if no log has been posted.

Let's plan on Bed Head playing next then. You'll do great. I can feel a leader coming out of your turns.

Question for the team (a lot of confidence here): When we get a leader, do we want to let the present build finish or do we switch to a regular library, use the shields for that, then use the leader to rush the GL? Or something else?

Surprise, I got Internet mail access and thought I'd check in on this.

If we get a leader an army victory would allow for the Heroic Epic and that's a nice bit of culture per turn.

I think we've got a pretty good shot at building the GL without rushing it. If we get a second GL, I'd save that for the HG.

Confidence doesn't seem to have done much, unfortunately.

530 BC (1) - What is going on with naval movement? The galley has six moves, but used three in the coastal water.

510 BC (2) - Umm, archers still have attack two, right? I lost three of the six archers attacking two regular archers and a veteran warrior in grassland, including the elite. And the galley moved two in the sea.

490 BC (3) - Two archers manage to kill a spearman, and take two slaves (Roman settler).

470 BC (4) - Luring a small Roman stack into range of our archers.

450 BC (5) - Four wins, one promotion. Our archers finally acted as they should.

430 BC (6) - Same as fourth turn.

410 BC (7) - Elite win, no leader.

390 BC (8) - We have some Roman spearmen approaching, probably with some unsavory ideas in their heads. Bring out Bubba and Moe and an archer to the mountaintops to deter them.

370 BC (9) - Ed is needed this turn to help out in the war effort. Another elite win, still only one elite though.

350 BC (10) - In a rather irresponsible move, I attack a Roman archer across a river and lose, and attack again and win, leaving the archer exposed. Romans also found a city next to the ruins of another city. Not much else to report.

I lost an appalling number of archers, even one elite. And only two elite victories the whole time.

I have it. I'll try and get it played today, although I'm not sure who would be available to pick it up. I imagine G-man will be back soon.

Pre-flight – 350 BC – GL due in 5. That’s nice. Rome hasn’t hooked up it’s iron. That’s also nice.
Caesar is hurting. We can get two techs, a city and a worker for peace. He won’t give up Rome so we’ll have to pass for the time being.

Switch Carthage to a warrior for MP duty.

IBT – Lose an archer to a Roman archer.
Carthage: warrior=>archer

1. 330 BC – With the new MP in Carthage, we can drop lux to 10%. Draw our forces away from the Tiber river so that the Romans will be sitting ducks when they advance.

Ah, differential naval movement. For those that don’t know or don’t remember. A galley gets six movement points. Movement in ocean = 1, sea =2, coast=3.

IBT – Roman archers cross the river next to our guys.
Leptis: archer=archer
Hippo: barracks=>warrior

2. 310 BC – Kill the two Romans, promoting one of our guys. I see that archers get the defensive free shot like in C3C. Monarchy due next, science down 10%.

IBT – We lose an elite archer to a Roman. Monarchy comes in. Start on HBR cause it is the cheapest. Four turns @ 60%.
Carthage: archer=>archer
Theveste: barracks=>warrior

3. 290 BC – Move into position next to Lutetia with three archers.
4. 270 BC – Lose two archers razing Lutetia. Lose a third to a wounded Roman archer. Science comes down 10%.

IBT – Carthage: archer=>archer
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4_-_G_LIbrary.jpg
Start HG, due in 28. We’re now at 14 cpt in Utica.
Leptis: archer=>archer
Theveste: warrior=>archer
Hippo: warrior=>archer

5. 250 BC – Kill Roman spear.
6. 230 BC – Science down another 10%.

IBT – Carthage: archer=>warrior (MP duty)

7. 210 BC – Nada.

IBT – HBR=>Philo. Due in 4 at 70%.
Carthage: warrior=>archer
Leptis: archer=>archer

8. 190 BC – Lose an archer, kill a spear. Elite victory against archer, no baton.

IBT – Roman archers are starting to swarm. We may have to go for some peace soon.
Theveste: archer=>archer

9. 170 BC – I remember Denyd’s sage advice, let’s not go for peace until we see the first legion. No legion, no peace. Although Caesar will give us a worker and three cities (to be disbanded of course) We have this happy event

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4_-_170_BC_Contact_Persia.jpg

X-man has three techs, our science budget goes to zero, lux up 10%.

IBT – We lose an elite archer. Bubba becomes a veteran Bubba, then he becomes a dead Bubba.
Math, Philo are learned through the GL.
Carthage: archer=>cat
Hippo: archer=>archer
Our galley sinks. Change Hippo to a galley.

10. 150 BC – Kill an archer.

After action – I have started building some roads in the mountains around Theveste.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4_-_150_BC_SITREP.jpg

This is to reduce the river crossing penalty. I think some roads where the red lines are would be a good start for defenses. We will also want to put a fort at the yellow circle, since the Romans will probably attack there.

Let’s build a bunch of cats. They will help our leader luck. Another reason for the mountain roads.

We’ll want to continue with galleys. Meeting other civs will enable us to play broker. Although we don’t want to increase the research rate.

We’ll want to place some more warriors around our ivory colony so that the AI doesn’t settle close enough for us to lose it. They will do it. We’ll also eventually want to establish a third ivory colony for trade.

And I don't know why I'm putting all this in here since we have some of the best builders on this team.

Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bugsy_SG004_BC0150_01.SAV

Roster:

G-man – Up (he’ll be back on the 9th)
Denyd – On deck
Bedhead
Bugs – Just played
R&L - Holiday

Looks great. I am glad we finally have math, leaders will come a lot easier now, hopefully.

sorry for the delay, typhoon in japan kept us back an extra day so I didn't get in till tonight. no way i can play tonight but will try to pick it up tomorrow.

tomorrow works fine.

How long do you think we will have to play this? Since it is 5CC, it will be less time than SGOTM3, right?

MB, usually gives about two months. We should have a full team soon. If G-man plays tonight, then Bedhead can play. We'll cycle the others back in as they come off holiday. With three of us we'll be able to keep it moving.

He won’t give up Rome so we’ll have to pass for the time being.
:lol: do we have the units to take Rome? if so, maybe we take it, sue for peace + 2 towns during the same turn, then switch it to FP before the end of the turn and then dismantle the new towns + mutton valley. we can then go to war again immediately and leader fish so we can rush the FP in Rome to get that town productive.

I don't know if we have the units to take Rome yet, but I think we could go on the offensive with about four or five more archers.

Preflight check: Nada

IBT: Defend against 2 Roman archers.
Leptis archer -> galley

T1: 130BC rotating S

IBT: CoL comes in -> currency @ 0%
Carthage cat -> cat

T2: 110BC archer kills archer, elite archer dies to reg archer, reg warrior dies to redlined archer, vet archer kills archer.

IBT: lose 3 archers, build 1
Persians have dropped off a settler/spear pair near the wool
Carthage cat -> cat

T3: 90BC kill 2 roman archers. See a Roman spear/settler pair near the wool.
Build an embassy in Persepolis. Sign RoP with them for 47g

IBT: See a brown settler/spear pair in the S. Persia grabs the wool. Leptis galley -> archer

T4: 70BC Contact India and see we are up everything on them.

IBT: carthage archer -> archer; Hippo galley -> galley

T5: 50BC Move

IBT: Theveste archer -> archer


T6: 30BC

T7: 10BC Bombard an encroaching Roman spear to 1hp (on a mountain so I wait for him to leave.

IBT: Currency -> Fued
Carthage archer -> temple
Leptis Archer -> archer

T8: 10AD

T9: 30AD SoD headed for Rome kills an Archer.

IBT: Leptis archer -> galley; Theveste archer -> archer

T10: 50AD Redline a mountain spear with cats and then capture the settler underneath.
Diversionary archer kills archer (NW of Rome). SoD archer dies to archer on iron hill. SoD archer kills archer. Move SoD to iron but is down to 4 Units. May want to wait for reinforcements before trying. At least move before attacking so we don't incur a river penalty.

Good luck :)

Galley makes it to the Persian side via a nice little path between coastal tiles. Other galley is poised for a Suicide treck to the unknown to the E of Carthage.

I goofed on the roads near Theveste but workers are now in the proper position to finish it.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sgotm4-bugs-50AD.jpg

question: do we want to revolt to monarchy to get rid of the despotic penalty after HG is done or do we wait till 2 people research Republic?

I say let's get Republic.

Roster:

G-man - just played
Bedhead - Up
Bugs - On deck
Denyd & R&L - On holiday

Okay, got it and will post tonight.

I say let's get Republic.
ok, then lets get as many suicides out as possible so we can get it from the GLib.

we're in the MA, any volunteers for a post in the discussion thread?

I'll write something.

MA already, I'll need to start up SirPleb's 20K calculator and see how we're doing. My guess... not good enough yet.

70 AD (1) - Hippo finishes galley, starts catapult. Our stack is decimated in trying to attack two archers the Romans left out in the jungle. Of the four veteran archers, all that is left is 2/4hp archer. The redlined fortified spearman fortified in the forest beats our veteran archer and promotes. I give India Code of Laws for an RoP.

IT - The redlined Roman archer that was left in the jungle attacked our 2/4hp archer on the hill and won, completely finishing off our stack. Rather disheartening that I lost four archers to one archer with the odds on our side in every single

90 AD (2) - Mostly a retreat from Rome.

110 AD (3) - That stupid redlined spearman is still getting in the way.

130 AD (4) - I love catapults!

150 AD (5) - We have a degree of luck, I guess. Or at least we win when it is slightly more likely that we would win, which is more than can be said of the first four turns. We even get an elite in the jungle, though it is likely to be killed by the two regulars.

IT - We do lose the elite as well as a veteran archer, but the Romans lose two archers as well.

Wow, what happened to the rest of the turns? Well, we killed some archers, lost an archer and a couple warriors, finally killed the elite Roman archer that killed half the units that we lost in our turns, and have a small group of archers/catapults a turn outside of Rome. No success on suicide galleys, though I lost a few turns and one galley after forgetting about the differential naval movement.

ok bedhead, sorry to see no success in galleys and the prng turn against us. we still need to get more out there. probably W of the Indian/Persian island will work as well. i would also avoid giving india any techs as i'm not in any hurry to see elephants atm. imho, the RoP should have been for cash instead as we have buckets of it doing nothing in a despotic gov't.

HG should be due in 3T, hope we get republic soon.

If the roman war ends without capturing rome, we should consider moving Theveste 1T SW to get more food so it can grow beyond size 6 (will need to raze that indian town as well).

next wonder is Sistine's or Bach's?

Sistine is next. I've got the game.

I'm back.

Looks like we've met a couple of new friends (Persia & India)

With the Great Library, Colossus & Hanging Gardens, we've got a pretty good start on a 20K win. We should probably wait to revolt until we complete HG if we get Republic before then. If we won't be able to take Rome, we should wait for the HG to complete, then accept those 3 Roman cities for peace and start the FP (if possible), then raze them.

A couple of questions?

1. Is the plan to build the treasury while letting the GL produce science?

2. Does Utica have all the culture buildings (temple, library, colleseum)?

3. Is everyone aware that when the HG completes our GA starts?

4. If we self research anything before education, what should it be? (I'm thinking we gather cash until Monotheism shows up, then research Theology with a Palace pre-build for Sistine, then coast until Education is discovered).

If possible, a current roster posting would be nice.

I was not aware that the HG would trip our GA. in that case, imho, we should revolt with 1T left on the build of the HG and then accept the best gov't available. with only 5 cities, it shouldn't be long (3-5 turns) so we could probably afford to revolt again once democracy comes online. maybe we get lucky and learn republic during the revolt phase but, above all, i really hate despotic GA's.

edit: @denyd, are you sure we will trip our GA? we are commercial and industrial.
Colossus = religous and expansionist?
GLib = Scientific
HG = Industrious

I don't see the commercial trait in any of the wonders, but maybe i'm wrong on colossus

According to the little cheat sheet I've got (downloaded from the Strategy Forum), Colossus is E,R & C and Hanging Gardens is I, and we are C & I so that should be a GA.

Is anyone else building the HG? If so we should probably wait for it to complete. We should only have 2-3 turn anarchy and we've kind of run out of wonders to build (unless we go for the Great Wall). If we happen to get a GL, we should go for an Army. The Heroic Epic is 4cpt & the Military Academy is 1gpt.

if you look at the "wonders" listing from the main page on CFC, it only lists Religous and Expansionist. either way, i agree that we can finish just to make sure we get the 4cpt and content people from HG, then revolt as it won't be long anyways.

I'm playing at lunch, should I revolt to monarchy right away? This sounds like a good idea now. Denyd is right about Colossus being commercial as well. As India in this game the colossus sparked a GA all on it's own.

Roster will be

G-man
Bedhead
Bugs - up
Denyd - on deck

R&L - on holiday, slotted in when he returns.

... should I revolt to monarchy right away? This sounds like a good idea now. Denyd is right about Colossus being commercial as well.
up to you on revolting, i'm oscillating between yes and no. however, if you do revolt, i'd recommend waiting till 1T before HG is done so we can get a better chance at learning republic. however, that would put the 4cpt in jeapardy.

and thanks to both of you for clearing up the colossus thing for me :)

R&L - on holiday, slotted in when he returns.

I'm back, but need to read through it again, and will be tied up with medical issues the next few days. (Ahh vacation... :mischief: ) Just slot me in after Denyd if that is OK.

My thought on giving CoL was that they might end up going for Republic.

Edit: And we need to be very careful with our money. We will need to rush as much as can of library, cathedral, colosseum, and university soon. That is 560 shields, or 2000 gold, and since we have five cities we don't generate a lot of revenue.

Pre-flight – Change Carthage to an archer. Rome and India are no where near Republic. I will revolt with one turn left. Can’t get any value for anything, so no deals.

IBT – Lose an archer. Leptis: archer=> archer

1. 260 AD – Lose an archer attacking a spear/settler pair. Kill it with the next archer, two slaves. Start a suicide run.

IBT – Carthage: archer=>archer
Galley survives

2. 270 AD – Bombard and kill a Roman archer. Revolt=> 4 turns.

IBT – Galley survives again

3. 280 AD – Move on Rome

IBT – Galley is lost.

4. 290 AD – Kill another archer

IBT – X-man want Lit for a ROP extension. Sorry. Lose an archer. Persians build Great Wall.

5. 300 AD – Kill an archer

IBT – Lose an elite archer, kill an archer. Become a monarchy.

6. 310 AD – MM our cities. Bombard Rome. At least three defenders. Start another suicide run. If we survive we have contact with a dark blue civ, probably the Germans.

IBT – Persia declared on the Indians. Persia starts Sun-Tzu’s
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4_-_HG.jpg
Start a GA. Utica starts a library.
Leptis: archer=>archer
Theveste: cat=>cat
Galley sinks. Change Leptis to a galley

7. 320 AD – Destroy the Roman temple.

IBT – Rome drops a spear next to Utica.
Carthage: Archer=>archer

Hippo: temple=>archer

8. 330 AD – Kill the invading spear. Hurry the library in Utica for 244G.

IBT – Caesar wants to talk. Only three cities? No thanks. Lose three archers at the gates of Rome.
Utica: Library=> coliseum
Leptis: galley=>galley
Theveste: cat=>cat

9. 340 AD – NuMer kills sprea/settler pair. We are in danger of losing our stack of five cats, so I drag Caesar to the peace table and get two cities, two workers and 17G from him. I sell the harbors in each city and abandon them. Change Carthage to a NuMerc

IBT – Caesar kicks us out.
Carthage: NuMerc=>NM

10. 350 AD – Spend 412G rushing the coliseum in Utica.

After Action – We’ll need a harbor in Utica then we can start irrigating the grasslands and mining the mountains. Actually we can do that now. Utica is at 23 cpt, that will go up to 25 cpt next turn. We should start a pre-build soon. I’d rush a harbor and then start a pre-build.

Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bugsy_SG004_AD0350_01.SAV

Roster check

G-man
Bedhead
Bugs - Just played
Denyd - Up
R&L - On deck

My thought on giving CoL was that they might end up going for Republic.

Edit: And we need to be very careful with our money. We will need to rush as much as can of library, cathedral, colosseum, and university soon. That is 560 shields, or 2000 gold, and since we have five cities we don't generate a lot of revenue.
excellent points, i get too worked up over PTW jumbo's thinking they get the extra hp as in c3c :)

Did we decide who would do our spoiler? I was interested in reading the spoilers of other teams but saw that to qualify to read the spoilers, one's team has to have posted theirs.

I'm going to write it, unless someone else would like to.

Oops, now I see that you said that on the last page.

I got it.

So the to do list for this 10:

1. Temple, Library, Colosseum rushed in Utica (that's 7cpt)
2. Irrigate grasslands (not sure why)
3. Mine mountains
4. No research, use money for rushing Utica improvements
5. Harbor in Utica
6. Start Sistine Chapel pre-build
7. Other cities build defenders

Should I replace the vet archers with vet NMs?
Should I keep any warriors? Any catapults?

If we get Republic, I'll probably delay revolting until after those improvements are done.

We aren't far from longbows (and hopefully muskets if we have saltpeter)

I was hoping to get the FP built in Utica, but it looks like our neighbors are filling in faster than expected. At this size map it'll probably take 8-9 cities to qualify for the FP, so unless we want to waste 3 or 4 settlers on a single turn, it's probably a dead issue.

I I was hoping to get the FP built in Utica, but it looks like our neighbors are filling in faster than expected. At this size map it'll probably take 8-9 cities to qualify for the FP, so unless we want to waste 3 or 4 settlers on a single turn, it's probably a dead issue.
we can probably do it (FP build) once we have 4 cities up to size 12 with thier stock full of food.

also, we should consider a granery in carthage and produce workers there to boost the population in the other 4 cities quickly. might be there already but i can't recall. we need those other cities to thier maximum size asap or we're going to start falling behind in the research game.

we should consider moving Theveste 1T SW to gain more food land or even further S, near the Persian town otherwise, it is stuck at it's current size till rails come online, and then wont grow much more. this requires razing the indian townor the persian town. to me, this is a no-brainer as the extra food will allow us to work more mountain tiles there, thus making it a better city.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sgotm4-bugs-newT.jpg

Utica already has a temple and a library, I just rushed the colosseum so We won't be able to add anymore culture until we get a wonder or cathedral.

I like blue dot.

An idea - the reason we had such a high loss rate against Rome was that we didn't bring any NuMercs along for defense. If we take a stack of archers, cats, and Numercs when the peace treaty is over, we can take Rome.

I like blue dot.

An idea - the reason we had such a high loss rate against Rome was that we didn't bring any NuMercs along for defense. If we take a stack of archers, cats, and Numercs when the peace treaty is over, we can take Rome.
nice idea. we can therefore forget about the blue dot and just get ready for the next war, abandoning Theveste once we get Rome. However, in order to reduce flips, i would raze/replace it. we can't afford a flip with only 5 cities so the attack force should include a settler.

I missed those rushes.

So my list got a lot simpler.

1. Irrigate grasslands (not sure why)
2. Mine mountains
3. No research
4. Harbor in Utica
5. Start Sistine Chapel pre-build
6. A couple more cats & NMs for the next Roman war

I saw Grahamiam's plan for city relocating and am trying to figure which (blue or red) makes the most sense.

Blue gets more land but loses the mountain range for defense and probably means war with Persia. While red retains the mountain defenses, but can't grow as big and might mean a war with India.

Since there isn't much development in Theveste, I'll start working on getting it's people converted to workers & a settler.

Edit: Just saw G-Man's idea and will keep Theveste and get ready to take out Rome.

We should peal off a settler from Theveste. I like getting workers out of there also.

We need to prevent the AI from settling around our ivory colonies. I was doing it with workers, but we'll need some warriors there.

7. Other cities build defenders
and get them to maximum size. the 2 northern cities should have aqueducts if they don't already. the point i was trying to make earlier was that carthage should make workers (1 pop/ 10 shields) to join into those cities to get them up to size 12 ASAP. a granery there will help us to quickly recover the pop.

however, i might be speaking out my rear if those cities are already up in pop as i haven't seen a screenie in 20 turns.

Turn Log 4

Turn 0 – 350 AD – Reset to my personal preferences – Send Warrior from Carthage to Utica – Change Theveste from Catapult to Marketplace

IBT: Carthage NM-> NM – Utica Coliseum-> harbor – Leptis Galley->Aqueduct

Turn 1 – 360 AD – Disband Vet Archer in Utica – Hurry harbor in Utica (300g saving 340g) – All catapults & archers now in Theveste – Achilles MP in Utica – Ajax (NM) sent to Hippo – Hector (NM) sent to Theveste – Marco sent south to cross over to Persia – Polo (galley) heads around the north cape

IBT: India declines to extend ROP – Carthage NM->Settler – Utica Harbor->Palace

Turn 2 – 370 AD – Thor (warrior) MP in Utica – Apollo (NM) sent to replace Thor – Ajax MP in Hippo

IBT: Carthage settler->NM

Turn 3 – 380 AD – Workers start chop for Leptis – Settler sent to Utica to join up – Other workers start roads and mines – Polo & Marco setting up for suicide runs

IBT: ZZZZ

Turn 4 – 390 AD – Hector MP in Theveste – Thor sent to Leptis to donate his shields to a galley – Apollo MP in Utica – Marco & Polo in place to start next turn

IBT: Carthage NM->Granary – Theveste Marketplace->Library – Hippo Harbor->Aqueduct

Turn 5 – 400 AD – Settler joins Utica – Athena (NM) sent to Theveste – Polo starts eastern run – Marco moves S to try a different route west

IBT: Palace Expansion gets a right wing

Turn 6 – 410 AD – Polo makes it to Babylon (dark blue) and he has Feudalism – Marco moving S – Ed reaches Leptis

IBT: Gandhi is mad about Marco in his waters, I’ll be moving soon – Feudalism from Great Library – Carthage Granary->Settler – Leptis Aqueduct->Marketplace

Turn 7 – 420 AD – Thor disbands to help Leptis – Marco heads west – Polo heading S – Athena MP in Theveste – Switch Utica to Sun Tzu due in 20

IBT: Apologize to Xerxes for Marco’s trespassing and to Hammy for Polo – Carthage Settler->Coliseum

Turn 8 – 430 AD – Settler sent Utica – Marco heading S around Persia – Polo SE down an island chain

IBT: Rome & Persia sign up against India – Theveste Library->Archer

Turn 9 – 440 AD – Polo finds a pink border – Marco on the southern Persian coast – Trade Literature to Persia for 2 Workers + 15g – Trade Literature + Ivory to Rome for Wool + 90g

IBT: ZZZZ

Turn 10 – 450 AD – Settler joins Utica – MM Utica to get Sun Tzu in 16 losing 1fpt (20 food in the bank) – Polo meets the Vikings (they are quite backward) - I have positioned a SOD for Kohlapur if we decide to join the dog pile on India – Hammy now has Republic & Monotheism – He’ll sell Mono for Lit + Mon + 160g – If someone beats us to Sun Tzu, we might consider it (that’s a cathedral)

No possibility whatsoever to turn Sun Tzu's into Sistine Chapel?

We might be able to get both Sun Tzu's and Sistine. A slow tech pace is best right now. Theology will take a while. If we get Monotheism, we'll want to cash rush a cathedral in between pre-builds.

R&L is up
G-man on deck

Slow tech pace certainly is helpful, but it is painful to invest 600 shields into such a low culture wonder. This is Monarch though, so tech pace isn't going to be all that fast anyway.

do we want to by monothesism now? the price seems to be quite a bargain and will get us a step closer to Theology if we want to research it ourselves.

With the current ETA for Sun Tzu (about 16 turns) there is time to trade for Monotheism and research Theology and switch to Sistine. Or we could try to complete Sun Tzu (we might want to build embassies to see how close the others are to completing ST) and then start the Sistine pre-build. If we could somehow get ST, then rush a cathedral (disband a warrior in Utica on turn 1 to cut the rush cost in half) and then start the Sistine pre-build.

SB: Did you get a chance to update the 20K calculator? How are we doing?

I setup a mini-SOD if we want to jump into the war against India. That might be a chance to get a GL. If so, build an Army. The culture from the Heroic Epic is more than many of the Great Wonders. I managed to get Utica to size 12 and Carthage will be growing back to 12 soon. Another settler from there could help boost the size of Hippo or Leptis. If (when) we do take Rome, it sounds like Theveste is probably the most likely target for abandoning. Too bad I built a couple of improvements there.

With the current ETA for Sun Tzu (about 16 turns) there is time to trade for Monotheism and research Theology and switch to Sistine. Or we could try to complete Sun Tzu (we might want to build embassies to see how close the others are to completing ST) and then start the Sistine pre-build. If we could somehow get ST, then rush a cathedral (disband a warrior in Utica on turn 1 to cut the rush cost in half) and then start the Sistine pre-build.

I setup a mini-SOD if we want to jump into the war against India. That might be a chance to get a GL. If so, build an Army. The culture from the Heroic Epic is more than many of the Great Wonders. I managed to get Utica to size 12 and Carthage will be growing back to 12 soon. Another settler from there could help boost the size of Hippo or Leptis. If (when) we do take Rome, it sounds like Theveste is probably the most likely target for abandoning. Too bad I built a couple of improvements there.

Comments acknowledged. We could sell the improvements.

I see it, but won't get it until tomorrow night.

@ Denyd - I haven't gotten to it yet. RL is keeping me busy at the moment. I'll have it up tomorrow.

I can do the 20k calc stuff right now. I got it recently to use in COTM5.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bugsy_sg004_calc.jpg

Thanks Bed. I ran it too. Our present projected date is 2167 AD. Looks like we need more culture :D

My apologies to the team. I have just started the spoiler write up. Sorry this is taking so long.

Got it...........

Our spoiler is posted.

thanks :) :)

Thanks, Bugs!

I've reviewd this a bit further before starting, and have the following comments to make on the above discussion:

It is a given that we will not get 2 of the upcoming 3 wonders. We will get 1, and perhaps not of our choice.

We are currently in a 4-way race for ST.
- Rome I think to be out of contention @5, and coming out of a war.
- Babylon (@7, grow in 1) is only slightly (~50s) behind us (~220s spent +14spt, see image). They're in anarchy, going to Republic this turn (religious), while we are in Monarchy. Our 2:1 lead in spt is about to be heavily reduced. (Lack Engineering, Lit & Monarchy).
- Persepolis (@9, 0 growth), is also in anarchy, going to monarchy (Lack Republic & Mono). They are at ~130 shields down +12spt (see image). While this is not an immediate threat, it will be a contendor for the 3rd tech in any cascade. Also, Persia has Engineering, and Babylon has Mono. Both have shown their ability to travel & found cities overseas. Persians have 8 cities including 2 remotes & have GLight, Babs have 10 cities, including islands. If these 2 trade techs, that will put us in a 3-way race for Sistine & Leo's. With a LARGE potential for loss of Sistine (or Leo's) to the Babs. Also, the Persians could buy Republic from the Babs before their anarchy is over, increasing their status.

All 3 wonders cost 600s, but only Sistine offers 6cpt. We could:
- buy of Mono from the Babs, and trade it to the Persians for Engineering. This would leave Babs offering Republic for Engineering, which seems very unlikely, cutting them out of contention for Leo's. This would add Persia to the Sistine race, but they're not really in it on build rate. It also reduces the chance of a Persian Republic, weakening them in the race for 3rd.
- buy Engineering from the Persians & sell it to the Babs for Mono & monarchy (little/no benefit to them). This will add the Babs to the race for Leo's, but doesn't help Persia in the race for the 3rd wonder. It would make it a 2-way race for Sistine, with Leo's or ST as a choice to the runner-up.

I think the first possibility is the better of the 2, and heavily recommend it. If we do nothing, and they trade, then we do get both techs for no expense, but also don't help out trading reputation. We did want to be in the broker's chair, did we not?

Incidentally, Babylon borders the Celts, Viks & possibly Germans. Persia borders India & Rome. Again, both have active fleets.

Concerning India:
I feel the our joining on India would instantly lead to Rome & Persia working a peace deal, leaving us holding the bag - it's happened to me too many times.
It would also take away our only currently polite power, leaving a cautious Persia as the best. India's need for techs can only be quanched with furs (8 cities, 63g, 5 furs), but Persia may make them an ally just through gifting, and they are the only gorilla currently in our league, being 11 pts behind, while Babylon & Persia trail by 51. It also happens that a comparison of the power graph & the Mil advisor lead me to believe that Persia is in Rex, having little Mil strength (out only weak opponent). India is the only one to whom we are weak, and with a similar but slightly bigger power level, I'm betting that India has a large army. I expect to see ex-Persian cities in India soon. Babylon looks to be a fleet/worker/settler force with a similar unit strength, but more cities - guessing weak army. I recommend gifting a tech or 2 to India to strengten the ties. Wish we could sell for furs, but their colony needs a harbor.

Please comment, as I am holding-off on playing.

Persepolis image.

Excellent analysis.

I agree, Sistine is the prize to get. We have time to trade to Monotheism and research Theology. As long as we have a monopoly on Theology, we can continue with ST. If someone else gets it, then we should switch to Sistine immediately.

I didn't like the dogpile on India myself, but set us up in case some had a good reason to attack. If anything, we could join India against Persia (unless we have deals going), but I prefer the way of peace at this moment.

nice look R&L, i agree that Sistine's is the main prize.

imho, Persia and Rome are the weakest of the immediate bunch and should be exploited. we should probably wipe out Bactra on our way down to Rome, then ally India vs Persia to ensure we don't get too many landings. we can get 4 more archers out of Theveste in the next 8 turns and our peace expires with rome in 9 so it should time nicely. May want a few more NM's from up north after the market and aqueduct are completed. A leader now will make the Sun's race mute and will probably guarentee us both.

noticed that Persia also has a worker available, let's buy it as foreign workers have a lifetime bonus to them :) good luck!

Since I've wanted to go along with your first plan all along, even if only because of intuitive feel for how it would work out, I would say definitely go for it, since you made the calculations to back it up.

SYNOPSIS:
A quick review of the military situation gives the following results. Versus these opponents, we are:
WEAK: India
AVERAGE: Rome, Babylon, Scandinavia
STRONG: Persia

The Diplomatic situation is:
Polite & Impressed: India
Cautious & Admiring: Persia
Annoyed & Impressed: Scandinavia, Babylon
Furious & in Awe: Rome
We have not yet met the Greeks, Ottomans, Celts or Germans.

India only currently lags us by 11 points, with the Babs and Persians following at 51.
The Babs (dwarf us), Indians & Persians exceed us on the power graph. Coupled with the Mil advisor, I’m led to say that the Babs & Persians have many workers & settlers, while the Indians have a big army. Rome is our military equal.

India is down lit, poly, monarchy, currency & feudalism, will take spices & ivory, has furs, horses & iron
Rome neither lags nor leads.
Babylon has republic & mono, needs lit & monarchy, has incense & gems, needs spices & ivory. 10 cities, 19g.
Persia has Engineering, needs nothing, needs ivory. 8 cities, 162g.
Viks lack lit, monarchy & currency, will take spices & ivory

Trade opportunities are:
- 5 techs to India to prevent others from doing so. Even though currently at war, Persia & India abut.
- Lit & monarchy to Babs to keep Rome or Persia from doing so. Persians have shown themselves to be a capable sea power & have the Lighthouse.


450 - 0
Build embassy in Babylon for 81g.
Spend 126g to review Persepolis.

Push research to 70% / 8 turns / +11gpt
Buy Mono from Babylon for Monarchy, Lit, 24g
Buy Engineering & Worker from Persia for Mono +217g.
Change research to Theology at 70% / 9 turns / +11gpt.
Happy & unhappy match in most cities.

Persian slave joins choppers near Carthage.
Ghandi won’t offer gpt for any techs & only has 63g.
Babs & Persians now polite.

IBT: Viks ask us to leave – OK. Romans take out Indian city w/a horse & capture 4 slaves. Indian galley off coast.
Theveste: archer > archer

460 – 1
archer 2S-W <oops>, add 2 workers to the mining near Theveste, add slave to chop, add worker to mining in North, add road near Hippo, move ships

IBT: Marco lost near Gordium :blush:

470 – 2
archer E to mountain, build road W of Carthage, move Polo

IBT: Carthage Colosseum > settler in 2, grow in 2; Leptis market > galley in 2, Thevete archer > archer, Hippo duct > market in 8

480 – 3
Polo sees medium blue Border to S of Uruk, worker moves, move archer to ruins of Indian city

IBT: Chop finished at Carthage. Babylon & Germany declare peace.
Carthage settler > NM in 2.

490 – 4
settler heads for Hippo, choppers build road, Polo toward Germany but not yet, an archer scout sees 2 Roman archers & 1 spear on border.

IBT: Persia & India sign peace, Romans pull SW, WLTGD in Carthage,
Leptis galley > temple in 4, Theveste archer > archer, the folk add columns to the palace courtyard

500 – 5
Babs & Viks have ROP, Rome & Persians have ROP, Rome war w/ India
India has a potential trade with Persia

Add settler to Hippo, but need to create a scientist to keep happy.

Contact German eSword:
4 cities, 0g, dyes & iron, lack Philo, CoL, Lit, MM, Poly, Currency & can offer nothing for a tech. Berlin @5.
No changes to wonder race.

IBT: Germany asks us to leave – OK. Roman galley nears Indian ruins. We get Republic from the GLib – stay in Monarchy.
Carthage NM > cathedral in 7.

510 – 6
NM heads from Carthage to Hippo, move archers to block Roman landings.

IBT: Our GA ends. Roman galley withdraws, but settler approaches from SW. Indian Galley nears.
Theveste archer > archer

520 – 7
Convert scientist back to citizen in Hippo with arrival of NM, move more archers to block settlers

IBT: Rome founds Syracuse N of delta, Indian galley N.

530 – 8
Theology in 2.

IBT: Persian galley leaves Bactra to E. Greece DoW on Babs. Roman galley returns to area near Syracuse. Indian galley comes back S too since archers pulled back.
Theveste archer > archer in 2.
We’ll have a problem with DoW on Rome, since we have an active Lux trade for 10T.

540 – 9
move workers & ships

IBT: Roman & Indian galleys pass, but neither tries to land units.
Theology > Printing Press in 12.
Leptis temple > NM in 3

550 – 10
Change Utica to Sistine. Move ships & workers.
Note that Rome’s power graph has been growing quickly during this 10.
We can now trade with Persia.

Status:
Points – Car 418, Ind 407, Bab 372, Per 360, Rom 344, Ger 279, Vik 274

Versus others we are:
Weak – India
Average – Babylon, Viks, Germans
Strong – Rome, Persia

India – polite, impressed, down Poly & Currency, 8 cities including Pasargadae, 0g, 6 furs
Rome – furious, in awe, down Theology, 8 cities, 1g, no lux, still no legions?
Babylon – polite, impressed, have MI, down Engineering & Theology, 9 cities, 14g, incense
Persia – polite, admire, Up Invention, Down Theology, 7 cities, 216g, want spices
Will give 100g for spices, 110g for ivory, not tech for both
Viks – annoyed, impressed, down Lit, Currency, Republic, Monarchy; 5 cities, 6g
Germany – annoyed, admire, down Philo, CoL, Lit, MM, Poly, Currency, 4 cities, 2g

Thoughts
- We’re still alone with Theology, but I don’t think we can give up Sistine in favor of ST or Leo’s, unless the next player ensures that we will not lose out on the cascade. If we can pull it off before the others gain theology, and if they are close enough to be forced to cascade or lose, then perhaps. I don't feel it in my gut.
- Will need to fix Utica, since food will run out before Sistine comes in.
- We have an active trade with Rome, so can’t do war without rep hit
- Have potential to sell lux to Persia
- India has gained 3 tech in 10, obvious gifts. Review of policy regarding trade / gift of tech to India.
- Rome still lacks legions

The map is thus:

Wow, read the spoilers and it looks like we are getting killed culture wise, especially with no leader yet. RowAndLive, your turns looked great. I too would feel uncomfortable trying for Sun Tzu's even if the turn before completion no one had Theology.

Those were some solid decisions. Sistine is a must for culture. Let's not worry about the other teams. We'll play our game.

G-man - Up
Bedhead - On Deck
Bugs
Denyd
R&L

got it....

I've read the spoilers, but some of the competing dates for the GL are amazing. I need to go through it again.

Preflight check: With Utica starving, I’ll just run down a worker roading the Carthage mountain down to replace the lost citizen.
Move the SoD towards the Persian town. I’ll set up a wool colony after razing the town. Notice there’s an elite in the stack, hope we get lucky. However, we’ll have to delay a turn or 2 to get more troops in the stack.
Switch Leptis to a warrior as I would like to have 1 more in the N to block any possible landings. That will give us 4 units up there.
Due to our inability to take Rome, Caesar now has his iron hooked up.

IBT: Leptis warrior -> NM; Theveste Archer -> NM; Hippo market -> Lib.
Persians building Leo’s

T1: 560AD 3 more archers in position to join SoD. Holly goes to Leptis to join town, MM Carthage for growth while keeping build time. Workers irrigating towards Hippo do another tile, then the remaining 2 start planting a forest to chop for the Lib build.


T2: 570AD Join 2 workers into Leptis, now up to 16spt. w/ 0 growth (due to happiness); Declare on the Persians and move SoD next to Bactra.

IBT: Indians offer an alliance vs Rome. Could ally them vs Persia but that’s probably not necessary atm.
Theveste NM -> NM
Persian galley is trolling around our ivory.

T3: 580AD Cat’s go 1 for 7 on the defending Spear in Bactra. Reveals only 1 spear so I attack it with a vet. Excellent, vet kills 2/3 spear flawlessly, reveals a LB underneath. Elite kills it (2/5) but no leader. Get a slave + 6g.
Abandon Bactra but setup troops in the Roman chokes.

IBT: Persian spear/settler pair lands near ivory.
Leptis NM -> NM

T4: 590AD Near the ivory: Vet NM redlines spear but dies, promoting it. Meet the Greeks, they are down Monarchy, Eng, and Theology.
MM Carthage for growth, keeping Cath build time.

IBT: Theveste NM -> archer, MM to prevent starvation.

T5: 600AD Near Ivory. Vet NM redlines but dies to spear; vet NM kills that damn spear and gets us 2 more slaves.
Slaves irrigate a second tile near Hippo, rest move to do another chop.

IBT: Carthage: Cathedral -> archer (buildup for a massive LB upgrade); Leptis NM -> NM

T6: 610AD Start building roads W of Theveste to improve our landing defenses.

IBT: Theveste: archer -> archer; Hippo Lib -> archer.
Greeks finish Sun’s.

T7: 620AD We are still the only one’s building Sistine’s. Irrigated a grass near Utica, Sistine’s still due in 4T.
Romans have MDI
Trade to the Greeks: give them Monarch for 101g and 17gpt

IBT: Carthage archer -> archer; Leptis NM -> NM

T8: 630AD We can get 12gpt and 42g from the Greeks for Engineering but hold off for now.

IBT: Persia lands an MDI next to Leptis. Why can’t he land that type of stuff near our elite archer?
Theveste archer -> archer; Hippo archer -> archer

T9: 640AD Near Leptis, NM takes 2hp off MDI but dies, 2NM in town, archer from Hippo and another N to help.
Worker joins Leptis.
With these landing to the N, decide to send elite N too.

IBT: Wool deal with Rome ends.
Carthage Archer -> archer
Bahh, Leptis rioted, scroll thru the others to make sure they don’t.

T10: 650AD Hippo has a clown right now. Persia has another galley coming to land stuff but the elite is headed that way. MDI moved to hill, going after workers. I did not attack yet as we only have 1 archer in range.

We can sign peace with Persia, swapping Theology for Invention (and LB’s). If we want to go after Rome, we need to do that 1st.

Hippo has 3 forest tiles for chop towards the next improvement there.

Sistine’s comes in next turn.

We can send a worker S to create a colony on the wool. Sorry, didn't time the roadwork correctly to get that done by now.

We can do a little trick with Theveste, where we build up her food, then starve her while working mountains @ 15spt (NM in 2T). We should be able to oscillate like this for a little while. May even want to irrigate the other grass to do this more often.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sgotm4-bugs-650AD.jpg

Good news on the Sistine Chapel. Shall we go back and rush a cathedral in Utica?

Bedhead - up
Bugs - on deck

Got it. I am sure I'll be able to rush the Cathedral in Utica one way or another, unless we have very little gold.

we got a whole lotta gold. previous player was doing a min research run on PP and I think I continued it. should have 1300g +. Leader fishing is important right now as we could use an army for HE.

After Cathedral, we need to prebuild for Bach's, right?

Just something to consider.

If no one else has Theology yet, we could try to Leo's and then rush a cathedral and then start again on Sistine again. We'd have to be sure that no one else has Theology before trying this, but it would mean 2 more cpt. If there is a fear that Theology is about to become available, then we'd shouldn't risk it and should go the Sistine, rushed Cathedral, Bach pre-build route. To get to Bach, we'll need education & music theory. I suggest we go, Printing Press->Education->Music Theory->Banking->Democracy->Free Artistry->Astronomy. With luck (and without any GL's), we might be able to get Bach (6cpt), rush a University (4cpt), Shakespeare (8cpt) and Copernicus (4cpt). I agree with G-Man about the army & Heroic Epic (another 4cpt).

To recap the current plan:
1. Complete Sistine in Utica
2. Start Cathedral in Utica
3. Disband a warrior in Utica (cuts the rush cost in half)
4. Rush the Cathedral in Utica
5. Start building Palace in Utica
6. Acquire Invention
7. Upgrade Archers (except elite) to Longbows
8. Align with India against Rome when current deals expire
9. Take Rome (and iron) abandoning Mutton Valley city
10. Setup wool colony
11. Research path is Printing Press->Education->Banking->Democracy->Free Artistry

Besides getting a Great Leader and building the Heroic Epic, did I miss anything?

Sounds OK. I just don't have a good feel for who is about to get Theology. Unless they chose Gunpowder or Chivalry, then Persia should be close. Hopefully Hammy is pursuing Engineering. Printing Press should give us a good trade for the southern path techs once the GLib goes obsolete.

IBT: Wool deal with Rome ends.
Carthage Archer -> archer
Bahh, Leptis rioted

Nice pun. :mischief:

We can sign peace with Persia, swapping Theology for Invention (and LB’s).

Unless we box him out, this will likely end up with a Persian town taking our colonies. I'd recommend wiping the MDI first. Speaking of which, a few MDI or LB may be worth our while.

Nicely laid out plan, Denyd. I was thinking that way, but you gave the team a very nice explanation.

depending on how fast we get education, we may be able to rush the university before we start prebuilding for bach's.

re: invention. Hopefully someone will research it and we get it as a bonus tech. i think it's important to keep the wars going so we can leader hunt. if the Persian war gets out of control, we can always ally India for tech's.

I think we need to think about which wonders we absolutely have to get.

1. Shakespeare's - 8 cpt
2. Bach's - 6 cpt
3. Newton's - 6 cpt
4. Cop's - 4 cpt

I think with some leader's we can get most of the MA wonders, but we need to plan on not getting any. Those four wonders are a must.

Ongoing war & city conquests wouldn't hurt our score any, either. It definitely would be nice to see the Epic too.

IIRC, we captured MoM, correct? So it is now razed and out of the game?
:blush: Oops! Wrong SG! Sorry! :blush:

Is MoM in PTW? I don't think we have to worry about that wonder.

With Sistine completing in 650 and figuring a cathedral two turns after that, we can now win a 20K victory in 2040 AD.

:cry: No one commented on my spoiler. I thought for sure I'm get some slams for my weird sense of humor. :crazyeye:

I thought your spoiler was quite enjoyable, particularly the illustrations. I was a little disappointed in the Colossus model after seeing your additions to the Babe of the Matrix thread however.

I agree our leader luck in this game (and in SGOTM3) has not been that good.

As for the upcoming university, on the turn after Sistine completes and the university is started, disband a warrior (or two) in the city and then rush it immediatly. We'll then be able to start the Bach pre-build on the next turn. If we get a leader during the upcoming war, a longbow army is probably the best choice, unless we happen to have taken Rome, then an MDI army would be better.

I thought your spoiler was quite enjoyable, particularly the illustrations. I was a little disappointed in the Colossus model after seeing your additions to the Babe of the Matrix thread however.
I figured that the spoiler thread is a family type affair, while the Babe thread is known for that material. I was sorely tempted though :devil2:

i laughed the whole time reading it, bugs. very nice job :)

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Bugsy_SG004_AD0750_01.SAV)

660 AD - It takes two archers to kill the injured Persian MI. Cathedral rushed in Utica for 632 gold. Go to renogotiate peace with Rome because I see no active deals with them, and they won't accept it! Oh well, I guess it is war. Indians allied against Rome for 7gpt.

IT - The people loves us so much, they add a new wing to the palace. On a similar note, plans for moving the palace to Utica are begun, but will likely be abandoned.

670 AD - Our cats go 1 for 7, so the assualt on Syracuse will wait. We have lots of workers that don't really have much to do at this point.

680 AD - Syracuse captured for the time, so I can more quickly move the units towards Rome. But a misclick moves all units with moves remaining at Rome, when I meant to leave the archers behind. Meaning now a damage Roman archer will probably destroy part of our catapult stack. The only possible way out would be if India moves before Rome, and kills the archer. Hopefully that will happen. Oh never mind, that wouldn't work anyway, because the Indian units are in Roman territory after the Syracuse is abandoned.

690 AD - Well, my stupidity didn't end up costing us, as the Romans just move the catapults closer to the action for us. They actually helped, making it possible for the catapults used that turn to catch up to the rest of the stack. Theveste riots, and I am not sure why.

700 AD - Catapults don't do much against Rome, so we hold off on attack.

IT - Invention comes in via the Great Library.

710 AD - Rome has a lot of pikes now, at least four, I don't see us being able to take it if our catapults can only take one hp off.

720 AD - Belatedly remember that we can upgrade archers, which begins this turn. Unfortunately, most of our archers near Rome are actually right outside Rome, so can't easily be upgraded. Find orange borders and talk to Osman of the Ottomans (he told me so himself) who lacks Engineering and Theology and doesn't have much gold.

730 AD - Not too much. A couple of elites win, but no leader.

IT - Romans and Persians both have Gunpowder now.

740 AD - A promotion of Longbowman to elite, our first elite Middle Age unit.

IT - Gunpowder comes in, we have saltpeter.

750 AD - The catapults finally succeed in destroying a road in Roman territory which will allow us to see Roman units ahead of time and bombard the units as they go by, I guess a rather ineffective kill zone. Not the right term, but I can't think of what it is I am looking for. Spot green borders but no contact. We aren't leader farming with Persian units anymore and no deals with anyone else concerning the Persians, so I accept their offer to pay 85 gold and 8 gpt for peace.

I've been slowly bringing the archers back to be upgraded, while leaving a few behind to take care of unguarded archers, longbowmen and maces. These turns actually went pretty well with minimal losses due to the catapult support in most attacks. I think we lost one NM and three archers and killed at least three times that if not more. Four elite wins, one of those on defense, but no leader yet. Utica is working on Leo's right now, with 136 shields invested, I guess. Or maybe it is 153. Or maybe I am completely off. I didn't actually think about it until now.

By the way, I enjoyed your spoiler Bugsy. It is a shame you don't participate in GOTM anymore.

I've got it.

@ Bed - GOTM takes a lot of time, which I haven't been able to give lately.

I figured, as that is the reason most stop. I played a couple GOTM but ran out of time, and am now sticking to COTM but that is getting tough as well if I am to keep playing SGs. But if all your spoilers were of such high quality, then the GOTM community is missing out, which was my point in making that comment.

I enjoyed the spoiler, but missed the connection to the "Babe" thread. Huh?

It is a shame that all of the other teams don't use the spoiler thread.

R&L: There is a thread in the off topic forum with copius amounts of barely dressed (all PG rated) that Bugs has made valuable contributions to.

Preflight – 750 AD – Culture looks good. Hippo could use a cathedral, so I switch it to it. I think we can squeeze one more shield out of Utica if we irrigate our two mined grasslands and work a mountain.

We are at war with Rome, and we are strong compared to Caesar.

We have met all the civilizations of the world. We are the tech leader.

IBT – Greece and Babylon sign a treaty.
Leptis: LB=>Cathedral
Theveste: NM=>NM

1. 760 AD – I bump lux up 10% and put all but a clown back to work. Cat at Rome never hit a thing. Check our operators for :smoke: Execute the Lieutenant in charge for allowing :smoke: to be used by our cat operators. Hook up saltpeter.

IBT – Kill a LB and a MDI at Rome, lose our elite archer.
Carthage: LB=>musket

2. 770 AD – Upgrade two NM to muskets. Upgrade some archers. Disconnect the Roman iron. Hurry Hippo’s cathedral.

IBT – At Rome – Lose an archer to a LB
Hippo: Cathedral=>LB

3. 780 AD – Upgrade some more archers. Get the two grasslands irrigated on this turn and gain one turn on the build at Utica. Lux comes down to 0%, MM. Start cycling archers out of Rome to be upgraded. There is no way we’ll take out the pikes with just archers.

IBT – Lose a NM and an elite LB to Roman MDIs, kill an MDI.
Theveste: NM=>musket

4. 790 AD – There are at least four pikes defending at Rome.

IBT – Lose a LB, kill a MDI.
Carthage: LB=>LB

5. 800 AD – Kill a wandering Roman LB. Destroy Rome’s barracks.

IBT – This is ridiculous. We lose both of our muskets outside Rome, plus two LBs. There is now a very real chance we will lose our stack of cats. I am really hating the RNG right now.

6. 810 AD – Kill a roaming Roman LB. Pull back from the gates of Rome to gather up our forces. March on Caesaraugusta. I bump lux up 10% to increase our score.

IBT – Romans sortie out of Rome.
Carthage: LB=>LB
Hippo: LB=>LB

7. 820 AD - @ Caesaraugusta – Kill the two spears, raze the city. Set up a wool colony. Kill a Roman MDI and a LB.

IBT – Hammi comes demanding Theology. We outnumber the Babylonians so I tell him to pack sand. Hammi backs down. Lose a LB to Roman MDI.

8. 830 AD – This starting to [pissed] Attack a redlined MDI with a LB and lose.

IBT – Now I’m [pissed] An MDI attacks across a river and kills our musket. Some MDI leave Rome headed towards our wool colony.
Carthage: LB=>musket
Theveste: Musket=>cat

9. 840 AD – X-man has some cash off Theology to him and we get 19gpt, 628g, horses and furs.
Hurry Leptis’ cathedral, change Hippo to a horseman. Kill three Roman LBs, no promotion.

I investigate Persepolis, and X-man will have Leo’s built next turn. Increase science to 70%, we’re going to have a very expensive courthouse built in Utica. I figure it will be better to restart the pre-build now instead of in two turns, so I change to a courthouse costing us 215 shields.

IBT – Utica: courthouse=>palace (we have 16 turns of pre-build at the current rate.
Leptis: cathedral=>horse
Hippo: horse=>horse
Persian’s complete Leo’s.

10. 850 AD – Nada

After Action – There are some cats headed towards our wool colony. They’ll be needed against the MDI that are headed that way. Persian now has Chivalry, but that is worthless to us without iron.

Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Bugsy_SG004_AD0850_01.SAV

Nice turns Bugsy. Too bad about the RNG in Rome.

A couple of thoughts.

Horses: With the trade with Persia we'll have some horses. I agree they aren't much good without Iron, but we're not that far from Cavalry (Chemistry & Metallurgy), so I'd build a stack of about 10 for future upgrading.

Research: Should we start up on Education now, to get the a University quickly and then on to Music Theory for Bach or wait for the AI to get us a couple more techs (Chem, Metal & Mil Trad).

War: Is there any reason to end the Roman war? As long as we have a chance to get that elusive Great Leader, it's probably a good idea to keep going. I'm thinking instead of taking on Rome, how about if we raze the rest of the Roman cities? If we reduce Rome to a OCC, then we should be able to eventually flatten it with cats & cavalry. The only drawback, is opening up the space for someone else to plant new cities in. Of course, Rome will try to send out settlers, which will give us a chance for more slaves. We could also have 2-3 settlers ready and plant them the same turn we take a couple of Roman cities and then start the FP before razing them. That would be 2 more cpt for Utica.

I'm wondering how we were able to trade for horses with Persia. There is no only coastal water route from Persia to us. Pre-Astronomy, that shouldn't be possible.

Edit: I got it and will play tonight (Bede03 & DocT04 get pushed back)

Persia has the Lighthouse, so they have a path over the water. We might want to sell them some ivory or spices. Don't sell anything to India. The trade route would go through a Persian harbor. If X-man gets a wild hair up his butt and declares on Gandhi, there goes our rep.

I like the idea of razing the outlying Roman cities. It will reduce their unit support. Let's leave them a fishing village. Some extra settlers would be good so we could start the FP. Good idea.

Turn Log 5

Turn 0 – 850 AD – Reset to my personal preferences – Switch Theveste to settler – Send a pair of LB from Wool towards Cumae

IBT: Rome lands a LB

Turn 1 – 860 AD – Vet LB (3/4) kills Roman LB – Cats go 3 for 6 to redline LB – 5 Cats move towards Cumae – Vet LB (4/4) kills LB – Vet LB (5/5) kills LB and promotes – Other units moving towards Cumae –Polo finds Viking city

IBT: Apologize to Ragnar for the trespass – India comes calling asking to renew alliance against Rome if we give them Monotheism and it seems like a good idea so I say ok – MDI comes out of Rome looking for some action - Carthage Musket->worker – Theveste settler->settler

Turn 2 – 870 AD – Moving troops into position to lay siege to Cumae – Polo exploring the Viking coast – Spend 300 to upgrade 5 NM to Muskets

IBT: A LB comes out of Cumae – Carthage Worker->Musket – Leptis Horseman->Harbor – Hippo Horseman->Horseman

Turn 3 – 880 AD - Polo checks out some Viking chicks sunbathing on the beach naked – Cats go 2 for 2 to redline LB - Elite LB (5/5) kills LB – Cats got 2 for 3 on MDI – Vet LB (4/4) kills MDI – Cats go 1 for 3 on Cumae (at least 2 pikes

IBT: Renew ROP with India

Turn 4 – 890 AD – Cats got 2 for 9 at Cumae (only 2 pikes there) – Vet LB (1/4) kills pike in Cumae – Vet LB (1/4) kills pike in Cumae and captures 4 slaves – Abandon Cumae

IBT: Vet LB is killed by Roman LB (2/4) – Babylon & Greece sign against Germany

Turn 5 – 900 AD – Cats go 4 for 8 to redline MDI & LB – Vet LB (4/4) kills MDI – Elite LB (5/5) kills LB

IBT: Vet LB loses to Reg Roman LB (2/3) – Carthage Musket->Horse – Theveste Settler->worker – Hippo Horse->Horse

Turn 6 – 910 AD – Cats go 3 for 6 to redline 2 LB – Elite LB (5/5) kills LB – Vet LB (4/4) kills LB – Worker builds wool colony

IBT: Roman Pike & Settler pass by – Discover Printing Press research Chemistry – Palace Expansion gets a dome for the roof

Turn 7 – 920 AD – Cats go 2 for 3 on the Pike – Vet LB (3/4) kills Pike and adds 2 more slaves – Note that we (and only we) can now trade communications to the rest of the world

IBT: Persia declares war on India – India lands 2 units NW of Rome – Carthage horseman->horseman – Leptis harbor->horseman – Theveste settler->worker

Turn 8 – 930 AD – Troops advancing on Veii – Persia now has Printing Press

IBT: A pair of Roman LB show up – Say sorry to Alex for Polo’s visit, BTW Alex has 5 extra irons – Greeks destroy the Germans – Hippo horse->musket

Turn 9 – 940 AD – Settlers found Leptis Minor, Rusicade & Sabratha – Switch Utica to Forbidden Palace due in 2 – Horseman (4/4) kills Reg LB – Vet LB (2/4) kills Vet LB – Abandon Sabratha, Leptis Minor & Rusicade – Rome now has Chivalry

IBT: India comes asking about an alliance against Persia, but I have to decline but I trade Engineering to him for 6gpt + 18g – Chivalry from Great Library – Carthage horseman->musket – Theveste worker->worker

Turn 10 – 950 AD – Cats go 1 for 9 at Veii – SOD is in place above Veii – Forbidden Palace will complete next turn then we restart the – Babylon, Celts, Vikings & Ottoman have 5 or less on cities – Look out for Greece, a little behind on tech, but lots of cities – Utica is up to 2663 in culture and adding 40gpt - Except for no more Cumae, the map hasn't changed except for some added ruins

Please don't take offense, but I think we need to go for Education. The present research path won't get us to a wonder. At least not quickly. I thik Education then Music Theory for Bach's.. Go for both at max sustainable reseach.

No offense taken, I was hoping to research Chemistry while the AI went for Education, then we could rush university and start the Bach pre-build while completing the research on Chemistry (about another 7 turns I think). There would then be plenty of time to research Music Theory while the AI researched Chemistry. If the AI happened to go for Banking or Astronomy, we'd have Chemistry to trade for it. My decision also included the fact that we couldn't research Education & Music Theory in before the palace in Utica completed, so I set up the Forbidden Palace. We'll need to start the Bach pre-build all over again so we'd have plenty of time to research it.

I'm pretty sure we'll be able to get Bach, Shakespeare & Newton. I'm not so sure about Copernicus or Magellan.

There is probably time to complete Chemistry, research Education & Music Theory before the Palace pre-build for Bach finishes.

I believe that I am up. Got it.

Grahamiam
BedHead
Bugs
Denyd - just played
R&L - UP

@ Denyd - I see your logic. By grabbing the FP in Utica, you should reduce corruption to almost nothing.

If we can get some leaders, we should be able to get Cop's and Magellan's. So far that is a huge IF.

@ bugs: we're due. just gotta keep trying :)

what's our palace prebuild worth? 300 shields?

If everything comes out equal, then the RNG owes us BIG!

950 – 0
Synopsis:
Rome – furious, in awe, weak, 6 cities, 0g, 1 Persian worker, down print
Greece – annoyed, impressed, strong, 19 cities (4 Bab, 3 German), 1g, down chiv, print, gunpowder
India – gracious, impressed, weak, 7 cities, 1g, down theol, chiv, invent
Persia – furious, admirers, weak, 7 cities, 77g, = tech
Babylon – annoyed, admirers, weak, 5 cities, 27g, down eng, print, chiv
Ottomans – annoyed, in awe, weak, 3 cities, 7g, down theo, chiv, invent
Vikings – annoyed, admirers, weak, 5 cities, 1g, down 6+ techs
Celts - annoyed, admirers, weak, 5 cities, 0g, 8 silks, down repub, mono, eng

Hold off making trades for now, but want to cut out Persia if possible.

I was thinking the same as Denyd, and so stick with Chemistry.

IBT: Renew peace with Persia, sell them ivory for 69g +3gpt. They will give 8g +5gpt for wool, but hold. Rome & India sign peace. The folks add a story to the right wing.
Utica FP > palace in 15, Leptis horse > musket in 5.
Indian sword & vSpear coming N from Brundisium, couple galleys, Roman LB approaches our horse stack.

960 – 1
@Veii, cats go 2/12 for -1 to pike & -1 pop, vLB -1 kills 3/4 pike, vLB -1 kills spear & captures Veii, nothing to sell & can’t hurry a settler sue to resistor, so abandon city.
@Rome, vHorse -0 kills LB
Hold off Persia trade again.

IBT: Persian archer kills Indian spear near Brundisium, Indian sword runs.

970 – 2
Disconnect Pisae. Upgrade archer to LB in Leptis.

IBT: Persian archer kills Indian red sword.
Carthage musket > musket in 3, Theveste worker > cat in 5, Hippo musket > court in 6.

980 – 3
Move next to Byzantium.

IBT:

990 – 4
@Byzantium, cats go 3/11 taking -3 off 2 pikes, vLB kills 2/3 pike, vLB -0 kills red pike, vLB -1 kills archer & captures Byzantium. Nothing to sell, abandon city.

India, Greece now down print & gunpowder, 0g
Sell Chiv to the Ottos for 7g + 3gpt, down theology & gunpowder
Gift Chiv to Babylon (both trades to build against Greece)
Gift Lit to the Vikings.

IBT: Babs ask us to leave – sure. Indians land settler near Byzantium ruins. Persians on Roman iron. LB out from Rome.

1000 – 5
vLB kills Roman LB

IBT: Persians get off iron.
Carthage musket > musket in 3, Leptis musket > musket in 5

1010 – 6
Sell wool to Persia for 34g +4gpt.
Greeks, Babs & Indians all have theology, so hoping for Education within 10.
I hope they’re not pursuing gunpowder.

IBT: Indian settler moves to hills SSW of Rome.

1020 – 7
@Neapolis, cats go 6/13, taking 2 pikes to red, spear to 2/3 and -1 pop, eLB dies promoting spear, vLB -0 kills spear, vLB -1 kills red pike, vLB -2 kills red pike & promotes capturing Neapolis.

- Neapolis has a duct, but how to sell?
- Rome will now give both remaining cities, 1 worker, all (16) gold. Go for Rome now? 8LB, 4 horse, 13 cats, 4 muskets
- gift someone else to theology, hang in there, or swap techs?

Holding until tomorrow for responses.

nice R&L.
cannot sell a duct if pop over 6
can we research Education and Music before the palace prebuild is completed?
imho, take out rome. we need the iron, not only for units but also for factories.

I'd say let's get Rome before making peace, or don't make peace at all. As for aqueducts, I am pretty sure they cannot be sold no matter what. I think I've tried to sell them in games where I've switched to ICS and made aqueducts unnecessary, but found they couldn't be sold even under size 6. Maybe we should have gifted theology earlier, but with our current prebuild, would it make any difference?

We have 10 turns left on the prebuild. I'm pretty sure that I can't get through the research before then.

I am confident that I can take out Rome, so will do that.

Also, I wasn't sure on Theveste, so I've been stringing it along building workers for pop transfer. It is @1. Once I finish the Rome settler, I can just abandon it, or should I not abandon Rome, but hope that they don't flip with no cities left.

imho, abandon rome. we can't afford the flip risk. good thinking with the workers for pop transfer :)

if we get education, at least the prebuild will become a university (3cpt) or, if we get lucky with a leader, the HE (4cpt).

I don't think anyone is going to get education before our pre-build is out. I take it you've tried to slow it down by placing the citizens on all the coast and non shield producing tiles.

Build a settler out of Theveste and raze and replace Rome. I'd leave Rome with one city so we can continue to farm for leaders.

I agree with Bugs on slowing down Utica. We should be able to buy another 10-15 turns that way, which should be enough for Education & Music Theory. I'd try to keep the pre-build going as long as possible, even if it means starving down Utica (use those non-workers as scientists).

As for Rome, we had two reasons for this war, one was getting iron, which taking Rome will do, the other was getting a great leader. If we plan to raze Rome, then there won't be any flip risk, so we should keep the war going. Since we can't build more than 5 cities there really isn't any reason to end the war until we plan on switching to Republic (the WW would not be pleasant). Do we have any elites left? Unfortunately, the RNG gods have not been very kind to us. Hoping that'll change soon.

I don't think anyone is going to get education before our pre-build is out. I take it you've tried to slow it down by placing the citizens on all the coast and non shield producing tiles.
we have 10T, surely with 3 civ's right there (discounting Rome, it's Persia, Greece and babylon) there's some hope? started to ask "what else could they be researching?" but decided to recheck R&L's list.

Rome – down print
Greece – down chiv, print, gunpowder
India – down chiv, invent
Persia – even in tech
Babylon – down eng, print, chiv
Ottomans – theo, chiv, invent
Vikings – down 6+ techs
Celts - down repub, mono, eng

Greece is probably researching PP, Chivalry or Gunpowder.
India is probably researching Invention
Persia could be researching Education
Babylon is probably researching engineering. if we gift it to them, they'll probably research Invention which doesn't help either.
Caesar is crying for his mommy :satan:

1 civ probably researching education will not due it for us. Giving Greece and Babylon all those tech's probably won't help as they can't research education fast enough (based on thier current research rate).

imho, it seems that the only way we can speed this up and not put ourselves at risk is to research education and then music ourselves, hoping for a GL so we can turn the prebuild into the HE.

G-man, you summed up my thinking exactly. Let's just hope we're both wrong.

I'll see what I can do to slow it down further, perhaps via starvation / scientists, which I hadn't thought of. If I can't buy enough time, then I'll dump chemistry. We're only 7 turns in on it.

i think were 10T into it, and i hate doing that too. how many turns till we finish chem's? like i wrote before, the prebuild can be for the HE, which is ok. Maybe, by the time we finish chemistry, Persia will have education and we can swap techs, then go full throttle for Music.

haha, this is getting fun :) desperately rushing improvements and trying to figure out wonder build time :lol: hanging on the edge for that damn leader :twitch: one thing we do need is more luck so start rubbing those rabbit feet and wear your lucky underwear while playing :D

When I was researching Printing Press prior to the completion of the last pre-build, I was able to extend the build time from 8 to 17 turns without starving off anyone. If that's still possible, we should be able to buy enough time to finish chemistry, research education & music theory, then switch to Bach. Even starving the city smaller isn't a big deal if we can get Bach sooner.

Of course, my preferred choice would be get a GL, build and army, win a battle, then switch the pre-build to HE giving time to research Chem, then going for education & MT with Bach.

Edit: You mean we're supposed to have clothes on when playing, that's what I've been doing wrong all these years. [How's that for a stomach-pumping mental picture?]

Mental block - HE?

Mental block - HE?
heroic epic (4cpt), available after 1st army wins a battle.

how soon we forget - thanks.

:lol: You guys are funny :lol:

Funny, the thought of a 50 year old, overweight naked guy playing Civ is just plain revolting :rotfl:

And speaking of revolting after Bach & University, any thoughts on going to Republic. I'm not sure we want to, but thought, I'd open the topic for discussion.

Other than the loss of turns, is there a reason not to go to Republic? (newbie question) We know it effects gpt & production. Does it effect cpt?

Actually, if we combine a revolt to Republic with a gift of Theology to some civs, we might get education in time to use our pre-build. That's assuming we don't get a leader to form an army.

iirc, during a revolution, we aquire 0cpt. can anybody confirm? however, being a 5cc, our revolt time should be minimal so, if we are making 40cpt, it could cost us 3 to 6 turns or 120 to 240cp.

More money would certainly help us to be buying friends when necessary. Of course, being the tech leader, that should be easy enough anyway. I would like to try and bolster the others near Greece to keep them from beinf as easily absorbed. Too bad we couldn't foment a war between a few of them to keep Greece busy, without involving ourselves.

G-man: You are correct, no culture during anarchy and with only 5 cities, we might even get a 1 or 2 turn draw (we could time it prior to the Rome attack when Theveste is being abandoned to have only four cities).

R&L: No effect on CPT except that none accrues during the anarchy.

My only concern with Republic is the war weariness that we might have built up and the maintenance cost for our army.

(EDIT: I seem to remember someone mentioning the reason that total tribe culture was not the sum of individual city totals was that, while the tribe total didn't grow during anarchy, the city total did, but that was probably a Vanilla Civ 1.10 patch fix).

Edit #2: Creating a war between Greece & others without being involved is easy. Find a way to have Greece get a lump of cash (buy a tech, lux or gift) and he'll rush units. With those units, he'll see he's stronger than his neighbors and bing the war begins. However, if we want a dogpile on Greece, our best bet would be to have a tech (say Education or Chemistry) that no one else has, build embassies in everyone's capital, declare war on Greece and use that tech to align everyone else against Alexander. As I see it, the problem with that, is Greece in it's current state would probably kill a neighbor or two and get even stronger. Our best hope there is probably to stay ahead techwise and have a strong friend (India or Persia).

Edit #3: I do see a long term problem with abandoning Theveste for Rome. There is no way to prevent someone from settlling between Rome and Carthage and cutting off the direct link. It might be a good idea to build cities in in the middle and gift those cities to really weak neighbors (Vikings or Ottoman), or course that adds the potential for land attacks from them.

just to illustrate denyd's point...

shown at 100cp and 1000cp expansions (edit: red line is correct for Utica, ignore the orange line)

when we get to 1000, and 10,000; they may indeed hook up. of course, we could move the city 1T NE but then we lose the 2nd cow.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sgotm4-bugs-culture_plot.JPG

1020 – 7
Abandon Neapolis. MM Utica to slow build to 29 turns. Change Theveste to settler in 4.

IBT: Vikings ask us to leave – OK. Persian archer kills Indian spear & settler. Rome offers peace – no.
Hippo court > galley in 3.

1030 – 8
Split cat stack, 9 for Rome, 4 for Brundisium. Join worker to Leptis.

IBT: Persians demand 59g, ok, but we’ll remember (have to keep rep intact).
Carthage musket > musket in 3.
We lose our furs & horses as Persia deal expires.

1040 – 9
@Brundisium, cats go 0/4, vLB -1 kills spear, vMusket -2 kills 3/3 spear, destroys galley & captures city. Abandon city.
@Rome, stack moves adjacent.
Worker reaches Hippo to join next turn.

IBT: Alex demands & gets print press – now at = tech. Romans pull a pike to iron.
Leptis musket > musket.

1050 – 10
Didn’t join worker at Hippo – next player choice.
@Rome, cats go 4/9 killing 3 pop & -1 to pike, move 3 horse & 3 LB to attack next. Accidentally pillage road :blush: with LB.
Remaining units free to move.

- Chemistry due in 2.
- Rome should fall next turn.
- Units preventing Indian landing SE of Theveste are needing re-arrangement, and 2 need to go back & cover wool colony & landing spot on BG. Was horse & musket.
- Need to renegotiate luxes from Persia.
- Look for tech trades, and watch Greece now at = tech.

Next better player.

got it. greece should be a concern. looks like they could be the runaway civ here. we need to start thinking about how to prop up alex's competitors.

Agree with concerns about Greece. When I play this as a solo game, it came down to me against Alex. Alex owned most of the other main landmass.

Let's try and keep Alex's opposition as strong as possible.

Bed - you're on deck.

I am still here, even if I haven't said much.

I am still here, even if I haven't said much.
as our resident 20k guru, please say more :D

Any chance of an update to the 20K ETA?

I didn't realize I was the 20k guru. Maybe I'll try to share my ideas more often, but I have been a little shy, new to a group that has all played together.

Updated calc, and we'll just barely win. We ought to consider jumping the palace to Utica next time it is practical, though it wouldn't add all that much culture at this late date.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bugsy_sg004_calc1.jpg

So if we're at 21,261 @ 2050 AD, we'll have a 20K victory in 2030 AD.
I'd skip the palace move to Utica. The pre-builds will make up for it. Hopefully we'll get some leaders soon.

thanks for the analysis bedhead. looks like we got some work to do :) i'll play and post in a couple of hours, after I get my 1 yr old to sleep. and I got my lucky skivvies on ;)

Preflight check: Build an embassy in Greece. Alex has 6 irons, 3 horses, and 3 salts.
Find a worker in Hippo. Activate him and make him join the city. MM to get up to 16spt. Can get higher with a forest or 2.

MM Utica to get Palace in 13T vs 29. Chem’s due in 2T, maybe we can get Education and music and I can slow down just before then.

Build an embassy in Sogut, now the Ottoman’s capitol. They have iron and horses, building knights.

Gift Babylon Engineering. Sell the Celts Engineering for 8g.

IBT: 2 pikes leave Rome :lol:
Hippo: galley -> LB

T1: 1060AD Cat’s got 2 for 9 at Rome, dinging a pike and killing 1 citizen. Move workers to mine the cow near Carthage. Drop sci to 70% to lose a little less money.

IBT: Chemistry -> Education; Sell Babylon Invention for 3g (they don’t have iron or horses so they need something)
Sell the Vikings Monarchy, Fuedalism, and Engineering for 2g.
Carthage musket -> LB

T2: 1070AD Cat’s go 3 for 9, killing another Roman citizen and dinging the 2 pikes inside. MM Hippo and Leptis to work more coastal tiles to gain more gpt.

T3: 1080AD Finish a second forest around Hippo. It can now do 17spt if desired.
Cat’s go 0 for 9 on Rome but it doesn’t matter as elite LB is not in range yet.

IBT: RoP with India ends; Carthage LB -> LB; Leptis Musket -> musket; Theveste Settler -> wealth; Hippo LB -> LB

T4: 1090AD Cat’s go 2 for 13 @ Rome. Move elites into position.

T5: 1100AD Cat’s redline Roman defenders. 4/5 Elite LB generates a leader [dance]

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sgotm4-bugs-1100AD.jpg
vet LB kills the remaining 1/3 pike and we take the city.
GL moves into the city and forms an army. Load 2 vet horses into the army and then attack the LB, killing it (5/8).
Switch Utica to HE, wasting only 4 shields.
Abandon Rome.
Find a wandering LB near the Southern wool (next to an Indian spear/settler pair). Kill it with a horse.
IBT: Carthage LB -> musket; Utica HE -> palace (MM for maximum spt, with some loss of food.


T6: 1110AD Get some units S to block any Roman Settlers

IBT: 2 roman pikes attack our elite* LB, 1 dies, 1 redlines but kills it. Watch a Persian LB raze the new Indian town.

T7: 1120AD 5/5 musket kills redlined pike (3/5) Found Oea -> Lib; Sell improvements in Theveste and abandon.

T8: 1130AD Moving our massive stack of slaves south.
India will found a town next turn that will cramp Oea :(

IBT: Persia and India sign Peace.

T9: 1140AD Perfect, stinking India Persia, and Greece have Education :lol: Turn off research.

IBT: Education comes in -> Music at a pathetic 19T.

T10: 1150AD Switch every town (except Oea) to University, even Utica. Hurry the Library in Oea.
Barb shows us SE of Oea. Kill it with the army (only available unit)
MM Utica to prevent starvation and still get Uni in 5T.

We can get over 50gpt from Greece, 30gpt from Persia, and 19gpt from India for Chem’s if we want it.

Only elite we have is a 5/5 musket. We should try to get it over to the last Roman city to see if we can get another leader.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sgotm4-bugs-1150AD.jpg

Excellent work G-Man - That Great Leader allowing the Heroic Epic, coupled with getting Education so University should be rushed ASAP in Utica will shorten that ETA for 20K. Once a couple of those Universities come in, the research rate should pick up. I'd wait on Chemistry unless the purchase price starts to drop (signals impending research completion). The AI often goes for Astronomy & Banking instead and Chemistry would make good trade material for both.

Bed_Head: I'm pretty sure that the FP gets more CPT than the palace, so all we'd gain is a little less corruption.

Utica can have both FP and Palace as culture producing improvements. The only disadvantage is losing the prebuild, as already pointed out, but Military Academy will be a better prebuild once we get Military Tradition, since it costs more than the palace does for a five city empire. I am not sure that we will need the Palace prebuild between then and now, with all the wonders that will soon be available. So jumping the palace would give a small boost if done soon, maybe 3-4 turns, and would probably have minimal effect on corruption (though I admit my understanding of PTW corruption is low, as I already had Conquests once I heard about the RCP rank exploit).

Without palace (and assuming University finishes in 1200)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bugsy_sg004_calc2.jpg

With palace (and assuming it is jumped immediately after, but I am not sure why I chose then since Utica doesn't actually have to build it)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bugsy_sg004_calc3.jpg

one thing that's hard to calc by palace jumping is the slowdown in research. we will lose the services of the Carthage library and market for a while and i'm not sure if that will effect our 20k end date more than the extra 1cpt Utica gets, especially since Oea is only size 1 right now.

I don't think Utica gets enough spt to worry about not researching fast enough. We'll have plenty to build in this stretch of the game, since Astronomy will be researched immediately by the computer and we are headed for Music Theory. The next time we should have to worry about a tech slowdown is after Hoover's Dam.

Edit: But if everyone is against it, I certainly won't push it.

imho, with 1 town down to min pop, i vote to let the palace stay put :) it would be nice to rush a market in Utica as well, not for happiness but for empire wealth as that's our colossus town.

i will be away from Oct 24th thru Oct 31st. please skip me till then.

Well done G-man.

Do we want to shift back to the original line up? If so, Denyd is up. If not Bedhead is up.

He was shortish. And oldish.
And brownish. And mossy.
And he spoke with a voice
that was sharpish and bossy.
I wonder how apt this discription is?

i will be away from Oct 24th thru Oct 31st. please skip me till then.

denyd, go ahead and take it if you can. I don't think I will have any time to play for the next couple days.

Ok then

G-man - Just played
Denyd - Up
Bugs - On deck
R&L
Bedhead

Mist - What are you talking about? :crazyeye:

G-man's Avatar is from Dr. Seus's book the Lorax. And the quote I wrote is the discription of the "lorax" - Sorry, I thought it funny. I'll go away now.

:lol: OK thanks for the explanation.

OK, I got it (was unavailable yesterday).

I'll play tonight. Tough act to follow, getting a GL. If we have the cash available, I'll rush the university and get back to pre-building for Bach. Hopefully, having that university will cut the research pace a bit. Adding Bach & a University should cut the ETA a bit.

If I remember our research path was Music Theory->Banking->Democracy->Free Artistry

If we can get Shakespeare, Bach & Newton (let the AI have Magellan & Copernicus unless we get lucky with GL's), that's another 20cpt.

Any other suggestions, comments or ideas?

Misfit - No problem. I got it the first time. (2 young kids)

I agree with G-Man on keeping the palace in Carthage. It doesn't buy us enough to skip out on a pop12 city.

Has anyone else had thoughts on what to do about Greece? Do we have any other targets than the Romans for leader farming?

We could always declare on them, and leader farm off the units they drop off. If they can do that.

Turn Log 5

Turn 0 – 1150 AD – Reset to my personal preferences – Military Advisor says there’s barbarians around – We have too much military (20 Muskets for 5 cities !!) – I wish I knew what the prices for Chemistry was last turn, I’ll have to monitor it each turn and sell before someone else discovers it

IBT: Xerxes comes calling and we trade ivory to him for furs + 1gpt + 5g – Hammurabi comes calling but we aren’t interested in a MA against the Ottoman – India founds a city claiming the two wool – Oea builds Library starts Temple

Turn 1 – 1160 AD – Catapult go 1 for 13 and kill a Pisa citizen – Horseman (3/4) kills a BV

IBT: We sign an ROP with Ottoman getting 1gpt (they can’t reach us)

Turn 2 – 1170 AD – Cats go 4 for 13 red-lining both pikes in Pisa – Vet LB loses to Reg Pike (1/3) – Vet LB (4/4) kills Reg Pike

IBT: Nothing much

Turn 3 – 1180 AD – Cats go 1 for 13 on the Pisa pike

IBT: Ragnar complains about our galley – Oea has border expansion

Turn 4 – 1190 AD – Cats go 2 for 13 on a Pike & Spearman – Vet LB (2/4) kills Reg Pike

IBT: Utica builds University starts marketplace

Turn 5 – 1200 AD – Cats for 1 for 3 on Pisa Spear

IBT: Nothing

Turn 6 – 1210 AD – Cats go 1 for 3 on the Pisa Spear – The price for Chemistry has just dropped time to sell – Trade Chemistry to Greece for 60gpt + 93g – Trade Chemistry to Persia for Horses + 107g + 27gpt – No one else willing to pay about 20g for it

IBT: Persia comes calling to extend the 4gpt for Wool deal, sure why not – Carthage University=>Settler

Turn 7 – 1220 AD – Cats for 1 for 1 on the Pisa Spear – I’m swapping some slaves for units in the north (save some gold) – Spend 232g to rush Marketplace in Utica – Increase tech to get Music Theory in 4

IBT: Utica Marketplace->Palace (Bach pre-build)

Turn 8 – 1230 AD – Cats go 1 for 3 on Pisa Spear

IBT: Celts complain about our galley – Cartage Settler->Knight

Turn 9 – 1240 AD – Just a little mining & road building

IBT: Babylon & Ottoman sign peace – Leptis University->Settler – Hippo University->Settler – Notice that the Greeks have started Copernicus

Turn 10 – 1250 AD – Cats go 1 for 8 at Pisa

Those settlers are for Oea – We could trade our Saltpeter + most of our GPT + treasury to Persia for Astronomy – Music Theory is due in 1 next turn – I keep shooting at Pisa and when a second unit appears I attack – After Music Theory then probably Banking to Democracy and then Free Artistry – Utica currently at 4007 with 50gpt

I didn't get through how India got a unit near the wool. It seems a shame, since they've been friendly all game, and make a partial foil to Greece, but what about a war with India to get our wool colonies back? Or did they grab the 2 wool South (not NE) of Oea?

They took the unclaimed ones SW of Oea (ex-Rome). If (when) we decide it's time for Rome to leave, they have nicely placed a local leader farm.

We could take a shot at Copernicus, but it's probably safer to just head directly to Bach with Utica. Now that we've completed the university in Utica, all that we can build from here on out (until research lab) is wonders (large & small).

I was building those settlers to pump up the growth in Oea and the Knights to replace some of the weaker (LBs & Horses) units and to fill out the Army. With no more rushing in Utica, we'll soon start to put some money in the bank, though we'll need it once the Chemistry GPT wears off.

Our research path should be Music Theory (completing in the interturn), Banking, Democracy & Free Artistry. That's probably about the next 20 turns, which should be about when Bach completes. Utica is producing 21spt, but can be push to 31spt but going negative on food. We should do that and let Carthage build workers to replenish the starved Uticans.

I'm still not quite sure what to do about Greece.

If we can wait until tomorrow, I am still playing Bede03 tonight. If I finish early enough, I'll grab it tonight, otherwise, it will be tomorrow.

R&L - I can play this now. Then you can follow me.

We'll keep the roster:

G-man
Denyd
Bugs - up
R&L - On deck
Bedhead

OK. Bede03 finished, and this one grabbed. Studying it now, and see Music coming in IBT, AI all building Copernicus - need to evaluate cascade possibilities. Huge SOD near last Romans - why cats if we're farming leaders there? Otherwise, I'll grab the new file tomorrow & play then.

The cats would shell Pisa and if there was a second unit, then they'd try to redline both. Then the LB's would kill the first unit and let the second one heal to be attacked once there were again two units there. If we kill all of the Pisa defenders, Rome is gone.

We might be able to get Copernicus, but if someone else gets Music Theory, there is no way for us to get both without an GL.