SGOTM4 - Game Thread.

Hi everyone, and welcome to your game thread.

Here is the start position.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4.jpg

Note: EVERYONE has to install the correct resource graphics whether or not they have played this scenario or GOTM before. If you haven't done it yet, you had better get a wriggle on.

The saves will be available once the timelock has been released tonight (19th September).

Here are some links you might find useful.

The original GOTM28 Announcement. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/gotm28_india.shtml)
The Draft Constitution (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1733966&postcount=61)
The GOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=71788)
SGOTM4 - Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=100194)
Download latest Save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php)
Upload a Save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm.php)

This Months' sponsored variant is 5 City Challenge the rules for which are as follows.

1. You may not end a turn with more than 5 cities.

Team Leaders: It would be a good idea to PM your team mates to get them all checked in here as soon as is possible. ;)

Good luck everyone! :)

checking in :)

Check in. Dowloaded files. Not sure, that it will work.
Will try hard. Who'd like to start? My suggestions to start:
Worker-East to mine-road BG, Settler NE and found Deli.
Research: Writing at minimum. Build order: 3-4 warriors to scout everywhere,
then settler.
Check around your posts. Looks that team have avarage Emperor level.
Sounds good. Who feel himself as Emperor+ or Diety- level? May be he/she will start? I think rrau will be third (in the middle), and I'd like to be fourth in the roster.
Who'd like to be fifth?
Regards, Ivan.

checking in, I'm comfortable in emperor and struggle on demigod but can win. Don't know that I want first though. :)

EDIT: Actually this is vanilla we're talking about, I used to play emp on vanilla, never tried deity. (back then emp was still a challenge for me)
and I agree on the opening moves suggested.

Checking in. I'm also comfortable on emporer but I can't win deity. I like moving the worker east but I'm not sure where the settler should go yet. In my mind there's a decision between NE, SE and staying put depending on what the worker can see. We're playing the variant right?

I can't start, I'll be out of town tonight but I'll be back tomorrow. The push for writing does sound exciting... do you think that we won't need a granary because of the variant?

Checking in

I did start this GOTM but never finished it.

What victory conditions do you want to go after? Culture 20K and/or diplomacy work with 5CC. Conquest would be extraordinarily difficult. Domination is out with 5 cities. Space is also difficult.

We will need a port city. Probably one at the end of the river.

Adrian

Checking in

I did start this GOTM but never finished it.

What victory conditions do you want to go after? Culture 20K and/or diplomacy work with 5CC. Conquest would be extraordinarily difficult. Domination is out with 5 cities. Space is also difficult.

We will need a port city. Probably one at the end of the river.

Adrian
OK. Problem with SG that fourth player should be tough negotiator to trade writing for good price. If nobody want to start I can, but somebody must take trade responcibility then. I never tried 20K victory, I think about Conquest, (Possible at Monarch 3CC), Diplo or Space (possible at OCC at Monarch). Sure, we need costal City.
BTW, Starting position works at my computer finally.
Ivan.

Ok, I'm going to visit my sick grandfather in 30 minutes. I'll be available to play some turns tomorrow and I'd be willing to do the trading and I think I could do a good job but this IS my first SGOTM.

I feel like getting a 20k win would be the easiest way to go. I'm sure we have some help for our starting location in the fog. I would personally be more excited by one of the other victory conditions. For now it looks like we should move our worker one space east and then possibly stop to consider our best start location which is probably either NE or SE. I agree with doing the writing gambit, starting by building mostly warriors for exploring and trying to grow our city as fast as possible. If we have any wheat, cattle, game or wine I want to irrigate it as soon as possible... city placement should take this into consideration. I also think we should initially use the luxury slider very liberally to allow our military units to explore while the city continues to grow and produce. That's my piece. Good Luck to everyone.

We don't know the landmass. Map making could be vital if we are on continents or archipelago. Not so vital if we are on pangea.

We are india. That means Russia (if they are in the game) would have pottery to trade. The decision on which tech to research depends on who are likely neighbours are and what they'll have to trade. If Russia isn't in the game then maybe we should research pottery.

Other likely neighbours are Japan, China, Persia which are some fairly aggressive civs.

I can start if you'd like.

However it is important to decide the desired victory conditions prior to start. If we go 20K then we will need to pump 1 city fast by merging in workers. If we go diplomacy, we will need to maintain our reputation and collect vast amounts of $. If we are going conquest, we will need to decide archer rush, or warrior to sword upgrade, or horsemen.

Obviously with 5CC we will want good placement of cities to have maximum growth. That means no overlapping tiles in my mind. So RCP of at least 5 (ie OCP).

Conquest is my least preferred objective as we just finished a big warmongering SG.

Also how do you guys feel about some of the questionable but allowed tactics? ie resource disconnection, palace jumping etc. Personally I don't like them. My last team had no problems using/abusing these. It was part of the reason why I left them.

Adrian

I picked up the save and had a look.

We are the Carthaginians (neoCarthage) not the Indians. We are Industrious and Commercial. We know masonry and Alphabet.

From the space race screen our rivals are:
India
Greece
Ottomans
Rome
Babylon
Persia
Vikings (only expansionist, I think)
Keltoi
Germany

If we want an early granary we will have to research it ourselves. The vikings are likely far away.

Ivan's proposed opening is as good as any other.

Adrian

I also, would prefer to avoid conquest victory condition. I would like to try any of the others, but I think culture is probably going to be the easiest to achieve.

Do we really need an early granary at the expense of delaying research of writing? Also, if we decide to go for 20K victory, one of the earliest available wonders is pyramids. We should be able to start it when we want since we start with masonry.

Also workers are very cheap to buy in vanilla civ :D

@AdrianE - we shouldn't need/want to palace jump in a 5CC. Also if we avoid a warmongering game, we should be able to avoid disconnecting/reconnecting resources. (I usually tend not to do this as I'm usually short of workers and can't afford to have a stack dedicated to this strategy)

Palace jumping is not something I normally do but probably won't be needed anyway in this game. (unless we want to play musical palaces :-)
I'm not a big fan of resource disconnection either. I have nothing against postponing a connection to build some cheaper units but once I've connected it I normally leave it hooked up.
In regards to position, if when the worker moves e you see something worthwhile, save and post a screenie if you like for discussion. Let us know roughly when you will be playing and I'll keep an eye on the thread so I can respond fairly quickly. (of course I'm in aus so let me know when you think you'll play and I'll let you know if i'll be in bed or not)

Since we play 5CC we do not need settler factory and can wait with Pottery.
If we want 20k victory we need good second City ASAP. I think, however that Conquest or Diplo will faster win then 20K. Anyhow we want Litracy ASAP for early Libs. (100% research I think).
Hope we take pottery and CB from somebody soon. Looking at minimap we should scout mainly south.
Proposed play order
1. AndreanE (20 turns)
2. dcstevez (10)
3. rrau (10)
4. I. Larkin (10)
5. TheNemesis666. (10)
Let us know that it is OK.
Regards, Ivan.

I'm happy with order.

I'm happy with the order, too.

I'm happy with the order, too.
Good. If AndrianE happy as well he may start.
Good luck.
Ivan

That's OK by me.

Adrian

We have a cow and the coast in sight after the worker move.

www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SG4_Ivan_open.jpg

My resources.pcx file is messed up. I'll have to fix that later. Anyway that splotchy thing is a cow.

Thoughts on where to settle?

I'm happy with the order.

I don't feel too strongly about this... but I think that the bonus tile on the coast is the strongest spot. The only problem is that the spot is almost ideal for a 20k city. I often build a 20k with my capital city but it can be pretty risky both early when your military is weak and your expansion is slow and later when you can't use a palace prebuild. I guess I consider this a problem because I feel like we're not likely to find another river/ocean/cow spot very close by.

I think the next move should be settler SE, worker S. Depending on what you see you could either build on the forest off the coast or move to the coast on top of the BG. Then the worker can develop the cow right away. We're industrious right? We don't want to build on the forest north of the river because we'll miss the cow for 10 crucial turns and all our units will end up having to cross the river the whole game.

As for victory conditions. I'm happy not doing a Conquest. Perhaps we could wait on 20k decision until we see what second city options we have. For now let's build the city, research writing and build warriors to explore.

(sorry it was 3:00am here when you posted the pic)
hmm, we could put the 20k city on the costal forrest and let a culture expansion pick up the cow. Takes a little longer to get the cow but means we still have the BG. Also I figure we don't really need the cow for our capital as we're not going to have to build many settlers.

edit: i'm happy with settler SE and worker to the cow next turn to scout. (until I remembered we might be going 20k I had thought the forrest SE was the best position)

Moving the settler SE and worker S sounds good to me.

Moving the settler SE and worker S sounds good to me.
I disagree with that.
I think, my original plan (Settler NE and City there) is good opening. City will pick up three BGs and Cow. Also forests generates 2 shields each. We may go to 20K with our capital. Or try Diplo if nobody want Conquest. Certanly, we MUST build 3 warriors and settler before we go to Pyramids (TGL prebuild). Do not trade masonary then. I never tried 20K in my games, will think about optimal research-prebuild strategy for that.
Regards, Ivan

Ok, I just messed around running a monarch game as the french with a river and cow and some BGs at the start location. warrior, warrior, warrior, settler, pyramids should yield a GL about the exact time that literature is finished researching if we go 40turn writing and then max research on literature. I think there is almost no risk that any other civ will build the pyramids before that. That is, of course, a commitment to going 20k. My target Ancient Age build order would be warrior, warrior, warrior, settler, Great Library, library, temple, oracle, hanging gardens.

The other cities would have to handle everything else. If we find another ideal city location very nearby in our early scouting then we could transition to using the second city for our 20k, but it looks for now that this is the best spot we can hope for.

If we start on the coast instead I would argue that we should build colossus before trying for oracle. It's worth a lot of culture and a lot of future benefit in a 20k city.

I don't know much about ideal early starts for diplomatic or space race. I also am not sure how much we want to trade techs and/or gift them to other civs to keep the pace up in this game. We'll be competing with them to build wonders but if the tech pace gets too slow we WILL simply run out of wonders to build. I think that once one of them completes the pyramids (hopefully there will be no cascade) we should be more or less in the clear to be able to build the other wonders first.

Ivan, you're the team leader and I think a better player than me. I'll lay out the reasons I like SE better than NE and I don't mind if the decision goes against me. SE is directly next to the cow allowing us to immediately irrigate it and start growing our city very fast... thus enabling us to get to size 4 before the settler completes if we keep citizens off the forests. SE is on the better side of the river for future troop movements. SE is not next to the mountain which could be a home to enemy troops or barbarians. The placement on top of the forest will not lose a forest because two more spaces SE is another forest. Also, the space SW SW looks like another BG which we will lose if we go NE (but it may be a plains). To me the biggest difference is being able to reach size 4 before the settler completes.

The war academy has a couple decent articles about 20k victories. Based on re-reading those I think that if we want to go for 20k we should build on the coast and get the colossus. We may also want to consider building a temple first. I guess the massive time differences are going to make communicating and deciding quickly pretty tough for this team.

Let me make things clear. I allways play Diety (other levels looks too simple) and on Deity you have to forget about Pyramids, etsc. I never play 20K on monarch, and what I read at Academy and SGs (OCC, Monarch for instance) was very boring. I am scientific militarist and prefer fast Conquest. If, however, we decide to go for 20K I am happy to learn. You may relay on my military-trade-diplo experience, but that's it.
BTW, Colosus give 3 cpt, and Pyramid 4 cpt. (Culture per turn). Also, we need to fight for GLs.
Regards, Ivan
Regards,

you're right, 20k is pretty boring. Why don't we go for a space race? I think a space race sounds like fun with plenty of warmongering to get leaders and keep other civs down.

Can we get a consensus on victory condition?

Going for conquest with 5cc means razing AI cities which means no possibility of diplomatic later. Going for conquest means an early barracks or two.
Going for 20k, diplomacy and/or space do not necessarily preclude each other. The start for each would be the same in my mind.

I might play tonight. If not tonight then tommorrow.

Personally conquest has become boring. I've never done 20k. I've done space and diplomacy.

Remember the laurel goes to the team with the fastest finish *RELATIVE* to the best date for the victory type.

I'd be keen for a space race, with only 5 cities it would be a nice challenge. 20k's get pretty dull towards the end, mostly it's just press enter, press enter, select new infra. build, press enter. Space with small nation will rely on ai assisted research and could add a bit of tension. (like we may actually see a space race :-) But this is only monarch so we'll probably get robotics way before the ai do.
I vote space. Just to make my post clearer and work towards a consensus. (but am happy to go with the majority)

edit: space and 20k probably do start fairly similar but a 20k prefers a slower tech pace to avoid losing too many wonders to cascades.

I haven't done space in a while. It would be a change of pace.

[edit] just to make it clear I'm voting for space race

I'd like combine Conquest/Diplo/Space. This what I normally do on my Deity games.
I'd like to avoid war at the begining and if start to kill opponent competely.
Lets concentrate on farst research (Colosus, Copernicus and Newton will be our priority) If we get technological supremacy in Industrial age we may chose Conquest or Diplo. If not Space then.
Regards, Ivan

That sounds great Ivan, Let's shoot for republic and economic dominance. I'm eager to play some turns.

I'll play tonight. I finally have some time. I'm ok with the space/diplomacy plan.

1st thing to research will be writing at minimum. Correct?

Build order will be war, war,war, settler. 1st war scouts south.

Ivan suggests settler NW. Others suggest Settler SW for fast irrigation of cow. No consensus so I'll guess at what is best long term.

Adrian

I've played

4000BC - send worker E revealing cow, decide to go with Ivan's suggestion settler NE
3950BC - found Carthage revealing a 2nd cow, spices, worker mines
3800BC - worker roads, warrior built, order another
3750BC - warrior heads south
3700BC - worker ne to get water to 2nd cow
3650BC - worker irrigate
3600BC - warrior built order another
3550BC - worker road
3400BC - worker to cow
3350BC - worker irrigate
3250BC - spot red border, lux to 10%
3150BC - worker sent to bring irrigation to other cow

3100BC - settler completes, order pyramids
3050BC - more exploration

I stop here with the settler yet to move, so we can discuss the next city site. I've played 19 turns. The next player should play 11 to get us back on track.

mmm, 2 cows and spices, nice.

edit: can you post a screenshot? I'm at work so can't open the save from here.

Ok, I guess I'm up next... I'll probably play in the morning. I'd also like some input about what we should build next. A screenshot would be nice. I'll take a look if I get a chance tonight.

Ok, I'm trying to post a screenshot for the first time. I tried to figure out 4 good spots for cities. I kind of feel like we might do better allowing for a little more overlap. Anyway, this is just to start the conversation...

city locations look pretty good, the only change I might suggest is move 2 south a bit into the fog but still on the coast. Next expansion from capital and the first expansion from 3 will grab most of the land to our west anyway.
(the only problem with the move south is there looks to be a lot of mt's there so it may not be suitable, but could be a possible iron or coal source later)

I opened the save to look at how many mountains were south of proposed city site one and there are a lot. What do you think about the red circle instead. Lots of shield potential with 2 bonus food sources in the expanded city radius? I think once railroaded it will be a powerful city, but that's a ways away.

is that rome or babylon to our south?

1) Set Lux to 0%.
2) We have to settle near fresh water first. I think spot 1 at dcsteve dot map is good for second city. Next one might be 2-3 tiles SW from point O of rrau's map. We have to restrict Romans from expansions toward to us.
3) Build order is the same as at start. We need more warriors for defence and MP, also we need second settler ASAP. Woker may connect Lux, another worker may connect Cities.
4) We may trade masonary to Romans and let them build Pyramids for us. As we do NOT go to 20K culture victory we need only economy domination wonders: Colosus, Copernicus, Newton. That's it. If we miss Colosus we may go to Lighthouse instead. Or give up on Colosus at all.
5) Another problem: at my load of save I see Aluminium instead of spices and Game at sea. At my another game (English) I do not see any strategical resources at all. Do anybody know, how to fix it?
Ivan.

I like Ivan's suggestions. Circle placement is not important and expansion is our immediate priority.

Check the second post on the sign-up thread. It explains in detail how to set up your resources and pediacons for this game. I'm going to play 11 turns now, placing city in spot 1 on my map, building warriors and then settler. I'm going to try and time the settler to pop when the city hits size 4.

Ok, I'm done. Here's the link. I think we're off to a fairly good start.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Ivan_SG004_BC2590_01.SAV

AdrianE's turn20: 3050 Move settler SW towards position 1. Adjust lux to 0.
Trade Masonry to Rome for BW + 7gold.

1: 3000 Irrigate cow 2. Set production to warrior. Move warrior SW to scout.

2: 2950 Micromanage city to mined BG to maximize production and trade on growth turn. Set science to 10% with additional trade.

3: 2900 City size 2: Set production to double cows. Warrior in 1 turn, growth in 4. Science back to 20%. Start roading cow.

4: 2850 Warrior pops. Utica founded, starts warrior.
MM back to BG and 1 cow for 3 turn growth and warrior in 3 turns. Science back to 10% (I should have done this last turn to save 1 gold).

5: 2800 Send worker to BG to start connecting Utica

6: 2750 Road BG: MicroManage back to double cows for growth in 1 turn + warrior. Scout reaches dead end peninsula

7: 2710 City size 3: Warrior pops (MP) and start worker due in 2 turns with 12 food left over.

8: 2670 Worker starts mining BG (necessary for a 6 turn settler after worker timed to coincide with growth to 4.)

9: 2630 Worker pops, moves to connect spices. Start settler.
Warrior pops in Utica, start colossus.

10: 2590 Worker starts road towards spice. Scouting looks like we're on an island with the Romans. The Romans will sell us Warrior Code for about 131, but I think we should wait.

http://rome

Writing will finish in 13 turns.

MicroManagement of capital: Work 1BG and 1 cow this turn, growing to size 3. Then work 2 cows and 1 BG for 2 turns, then 1 cow and 2 BG for 2 turns yielding settler at same time as city growth dropping us back only to size 2. The southern Worker should move to connect and benefit Utica while the northern worker connects spices. The northern warrior should keep a look out for barbs and some of the southern warriors should hold back for MP and defense duty.

Utica could possibly be changed to either a worker or we may want to plan on having utica build the great lighthouse since we might be on an island. Maybe we should shoot straight for mapmaking.

I don't know if we can beat the Romans too it, but north of that lake would be a great city location. We have some warriors in the area that could possibly protect the spot for us. If not, then the SW end of the Utica river could be a servicable fall-back location. We should try to keep the Romans away from iron... if it's possible.

http://mountains

Good play DCsteve, May be Colosus to early. What romans ask for WC?

Thanks, I agree it's probably not time to start building a wonder yet. Utica could still switch to a worker, warrior or barracks.

The Romans are asking 131 + 1gpt for WC. I was waiting on the deal to find another civ to lower the cost... but it doesn't look like that will happen. We might want to buy it and start building archers so we can take out the romans before they get to their UU. If we ARE on an island we could even try to sneak attack them and hope that nobody ever knows.

Are civs set to respawn?

OK, got it. I probably won't play until tomorrow as I'm up in 3 games at once.

If everyone (or most everyone) is agreeable, will switch Utica to worker in 4 when city grows to 2, then rax, then vet archers for archer rush. I'll also buy WC as I think we need that to build our archers. I won't plan on building any of our UU - looks like some kind of spartan spear - as we don't want a despotic golden age.

Plan to have the worker from utica start roading towards Rome once Utica is connected to speed our troops on the way.

As a long term goal, I think we should try to keep this island to ourselves and DOW on any intruders (won't win us diplomatic victory though)

Let me know your thoughts.

Sounds really good. We definitely want to archer rush Rome. We also want to shoot for colossus/great lighthouse, but we have some time before we need to commit to those. Go ahead and by WC right away because I think the computer gives you a better deal when you are spending ALL of your cash on hand.

I think we do not need WC and archer rush right now. We will need spare cash to research Literacy/Map making at 100%. Better to trade Writing for Techs. May be early Colosus in Utica is OK. Third City at Grassland 3 tiles SW from point O at rraus Dot map. Not sure about others. Will wait and see. I think we have to be friendly with Romans as long as possible. At least before next contacts. It looks that we are alone at our Island and our Commulative technological progress depend on our good relationship. IMHO that Archers is most useles unit for future. Also, better to avoid Golden Age before Republic. To avoid sneak attack we have to have one goplit per City. We also might build Trade route to Rome. Futur military road. We may think about war when we will know Iron and horse location. But I'd like to avoid war with Rome.
Regards, Ivan.

Ivan_SG004_BC2190_01.SAV (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Ivan_SG004_BC2190_01.SAV)


No concensus reached on what to do with Utica. Will hold off on trade at this time as we will probably need the $

pre-turn (2590bc)

Switch Utica from Colossus to worker

ibt zzz

turn 1 (2550bc)

MM Carthage, move some warriors and move worker to start road to Utica

ibt zzz

turn 2 (2510bc)

move some warriors, start road to Utica

ibt Rome founded Antium by northern wool, cutting off our southern warrior :(

turn 3 (2470bc)

move some warriors
MM Carthage

ibt

see a barb warrior N of Carthage
Utica worker => rax (can change to Colossus if concensus is reached)

turn 4 (2430bc)

kill barb warrior and end next to barb camp

ibt

Carthage settler => rax (can be changed to Pyramids for GL prebuild)

turn 5 (2390bc)

dispersed barb camp, warrior lost 1hp. Still a regular

ibt

road to spices complete and we now have happy people, who build Hannabaline a room to live in. (instead of having her live in a cave)

turn 6 (2350bc)

fortify injured warrior to heal, move other warriors and settler

ibt zzz

turn 7 (2310bc)

move units again

ibt zzz

turn 8 (2270bc)

move units again

ibt

another barb warrior out of area near ivory.

turn 9 (2230bc)

leave warrior fortified on hill as if I move this turn, I can't fortify or attack before he's attacked

ibt

barb warrior appears next to warrior trapped behind Roman territory

turn 10 (2190bc)

Trapped reg war kills barb warrior with loss of 2hp
Northern reg war kills barb warrior with loss of 2hp

Firaxis score 97; Jason score 128


Notes:

1. Rome is up both WC and IW
2. The settler for the 3rd town is close to where I think he needs to be but it might be better to wait until after trading writing for IW before settling our 3rd city.

Got it, may be play tomorrow.
[/I]Carthage settler => rax (can be changed to Pyramids for GL prebuild)[/I]. Better if romans will build TGL for us.
We have to be very cooperative at 5CC!

ttttttttttt

Nice turns Ivan. Rome seems to have a dream location.

One option for us would be to place a temporary city/worker pump very close to Carthage. Carthage can only make full use of both cattle 2 out of every 4 turns. We could place a temporary camp to the NE to make use of the northern cow the other 2 turns.

We could also place the ivory city with a plan to eventually abandon once we capture rome.

Future idea. We could theoretically build the FP if we capture 3 Roman cities in the same turn at a later date. Or do a combination of capturing and founding new cities while abandoning old cities.

I got it but only just got back from work trip so probably won't play tonight. Will play tomorrow when I get home. (and catch up on previous posts)

1) Rome seems to have a dream location.

2) One option for us would be to place a temporary city/worker pump very close to Carthage. Carthage can only make full use of both cattle 2 out of every 4 turns. We could place a temporary camp to the NE to make use of the northern cow the other 2 turns.

3) We could also place the ivory city with a plan to eventually abandon once we capture rome.

4) Future idea. We could theoretically build the FP if we capture 3 Roman cities in the same turn at a later date. Or do a combination of capturing and founding new cities while abandoning old cities.
1) I think corruption in Rome will high. Much better to trade then fight.
2)-3) major problem is not allowed to Romans settel at our Lux. Therefore I choose locations of next Cities. We can abonded them when our culture border expand.
4) Not sure that we need FP. Will see, however.
Regards, Ivan

Uploaded. (uploaded your's first Ivan as the reports said we were only up to 2190BC)

Turn Log

1725BC (1)
Northern hoplite see's barb

1700BC (2)
zzz

IBT
Caesar demands 23g, I give it
Northern hoplite repels barb

1675BC (3)
Carthage settler->settler
sci90%, +1gpt, 71g, Lit stays 6t

IBT
Northern hop repels another barb
Romans start Pyramids

1650BC (4)
Hop forts to heal and repel another barb

IBT
Another barb dies, still no promote

1625BC (5)
Settler arrives at location 1

1600BC (6)
Theveste founded
Hop arrives at ivory forrest s of camp
southern worker spots roman settler pair

1575BC (7)
Carthage settler->hoplite
sci80%, +2gpt, 75g, Lit stays 2t

IBT
Roman settler pair founds Pompeii sw-ish of Leptis Minor

1550BC (8)
zzz

1525BC (9)
We discover Literature
Trade lit to Rome for Pot + WC + 26g
sci100%, -1gpt, 105g, Map Making 17t
Switch Leptis Minor to Great Library

1500BC (10)
zzz

Firaxis: 135
Jason: 179


>>> SAVE <<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Ivan_SG004_BC1500_01.SAV)

Please build Libraries everywhere. We may finish Colosus to be first but other Cities should build Libs for culture expansion. As I said, let Romans build TGL for us. Our Priority to build trade route and trade Lux to Romans.

That should make me up. I'll play this evening.

Where was that newly produced settler heading?

Adrian

New settler was heading to location 2 on the jpg posted by ivan. And sorry ivan, I thought you'd said the pyra was a prebuild for TGL, now I reread it I realise you meant library. I nearly had a road all the way to rome when they founded pompeii, when they hook it up we'll have a trade route. (I didn't want to leave the worker in their terr. I know they won't kick him but I think it upsets them)

OK

1500BC - Rome has iron, we don't, they are building the Pyramids in Rome
They are Polite to us and we are weak compared to them.

Change Leptis Magna to library, press enter

Theveste completes a warrior, starts a library

1475BC - disperse barb camp for 25 G
1450BC - found Hippo, IBT Romans establish an embassy with us
1350BC - spartan hoplite completes in Carthage, order a worker
1325BC - worker completes in Carthage, order a hoplite
1300BC - Leptis Magna completes Library, order a barracks
1250BC - nothing

I sent two workers towards Theveste to improve the terrain and 1 to build a road to ivory. I left one down south in Leptis Magna area. Expansion is due next turn there.

Mapmaking is due in 3 turns. Rome has CB and CoL. I did not make any trades.

Adrian

Did we finish Library in Crathege? Please do it as son as possible.
Hope we get Colosus, if not swich to Lighthouse, NOT TGL or pyramids.
After MMking Phylosophy=>Republic (Trade CoL). If Romans send settlers through our land try to block them with 3 warriors cap.
##
# or ##
#
Build trade route and trade lux to Rome for Lump sum.Will help to avoid war.
Regards, Ivan.

I did not build a library in Carthage. The hoplite under construction there is due in 1 turn so it can be switched to a library due in 5 turns or so.

Theveste should build a galley as soon as it can.

We can build a wall of units to keep the Romans out. It takes 5 units to do so. Start S,SW of Utica and go NW. Our continent is only 5 squares wide there. It won't stop any boats though.

Adrian

Ok, I'm up next. I'll play in the morning. So long as we're diligent we can prevent them sending settlers with a mobile blockade of three warriors. I'll switch Carthage to library and maximize research to get republic as fast as possible. I'll also prioritize a trireme to contact other civs...

Re: Mapmaking. I've read some war academy articles claiming that you should never sell your map to other civs and others claiming that you should do it every turn. I tend to decide what to do based on the situation... such as trying not to sell my map while I know how to get somewhere important like other civs or an empty island.

This is a ways off, but are any of you playing this on PTW? It really frustrates me that vanilla makes every civ get monotheism.

we're all playing vanilla. (saves for vanilla and PTW are not compatible)

Remind again:
Build trade route and trade lux to Rome for Lump sum.Will help to avoid war..
If Romans get MMking we should think about another tacticks to block there settelment.

I've played my turns. Rome isn't building an internal road network so we can't trade them lux yet.

1250: eot change carthage to build library

1225: culture expands from leptis connecting to utica revealing roman warriors moving north. Move workers. Micromanage carthage for a little extra trade and shield

IBT, viking city of Nadaros completes colossus

1200: Change Utica to TGL as pre-build for lighthouse. MM Carthage. Science to 50%, Mapmaking in 1 turn.

1175: Complete Mapmaking, start philosophy (6 turns) science at 100%.

Carthage is size 6. Adjust luxury to 10% = 2gpt = extra trade carthage gets from 6th citizen. Need more workers for more development. MicroManage Carthage to finish library in 2 turns. Will slow city growth by 6 food while saving 9 shields.

Mapmaking plus 123 gold not enough for CoL from Romans.
Change Theveste to build galley in 1 turn (sorry if you wanted library first)

1150: Trireme complete, start library in Theveste

1125: Carthage completes library, start worker. MM back to normal

1100: Carthage completes worker, start hoplite, move worker to utica

Leptis completes barracks, start hoplite
Carthage is size 5. Science to 100%, philosophy still 3 turns away

1075: MM carthage for gold - growth in 1 turn

1050: Carthage is size 6 - set lux to 10% - cost ratio same as before
Science set to 10%, philosophy in 1 turn - just missed shaving a turn.

Trireme moves into Roman waters.

Rome has discovered Mapmaking, cant' trade maps (see special rules)
Rome wants 17 gpt + 108 gold for CoL

IBT apologize to rome for trireme

1025: Finish Philosophy. Give Rome philosophy, 59 gold and 6 gpt for CoL. I tried to balance gpt vs lump sum to get a good deal while ensuring that Rome won't attack us. pure gpt would have been 10gpt.

Hoplite finishes in Carthage, start worker.

Start chopping unworked forest at Theveste to speed library.
Roman warrior starts moving south (I never spoke to rome about their wandering warrior to avoid upsetting them).

Science to 90% =Republic in 22 turns and -10gpt.

1000: Worker complete in Carthage, start hoplite
lux to 0%, science still at 90% = republic in 23 turns. Hopefully trireme finds other civs in 6 turns and makes some money. Alternativelly, if we can start selling spices to Rome soon we can make some of that up.

I think we should all make sure to check out the special rules for this game again. Specifically, the trireme is moving differently than in a normal vanilla game, moving faster when off shore. This is the first time I've played a game with differential ship movement...

I've sent a second worker to help hook up ivory so that we can allow our cities to go to size 6.

dcstevez

I'm on a macintosh so PTW is not a viable option. It does means that we have to be better than the PTW players by at least 12 turns in any science race just to keep even.

I think Greece is the only scientific AI civ in this game, so its not such a big issue.

Edit: there are actually several scientific civs. We will be hurt by the free tech ptw vrs vanilla issue unless m-b changed some civ traits.

For this game the only normally scientific civ that has had the trait removed is Babylon. This is the same as in the original GOTM28 and not something I did. This is unfair on the 1.29f players I know :(

If it makes you feel better, I am working on a mechanism for removing this advantage for PTW players, without taking scientific civs out of the game. Unfortunately these things take time.

got it....

Preturn (1000bc)

Well it puzzled me for a minute that our Spartan Hoplites are red/orange. For a second I thought we had Roman legionaries in a couple of our cities :crazyeye:

We only have 58g in our treasury so we aren't going to be able to sustain research at 90% at -8gpt for very many turns

ibt: a barb galley rows into sight

turn 1 (975bc)

MM Utica to mined hill for Lighthouse in 16 instead of 18 - slowed growth from 2 turns to 4 turns
Galley ended in Roman waters

ibt: galley survived barb galley with loss of one hp; Leptis Magnua spartan => courthouse as is losing 4 shields to corruption
Roman warrior enters our territory on his way home

turn 2 (950bc)

galley ends turn still in Roman waters
adjust lux slider to 10%, keeping research at 90. we have 42g with -10gpt and Republic due in 18

ibt: Carthage spartan => 1 turn worker

turn 3 (925bc)

galley finally ends a turn in neutral waters

ibt: Roman warrior leaves our territory

turn 4 (900bc)

galley ends turn next to a barb galley

ibt: galley survives, but only has 1hp left, our domestic advisor warns about the sad state of our treasury

turn 5 (875bc)

Galley sees coast in the distance
MM Utica from Lighthouse in 12 to Lighthouse in 10 (size 6 and no growth right now)
Ivory is hooked up - was able to take lux slider to 0
Still can't trade Lux's with Rome. Rome is up at least CB and HBR

ibt:zzz

turn 6 (850bc)

Galley finds a one tile mountain isle :(

ibt: Carthage spartan =>

turn 7 (825bc)

not much

turn 8 (800bc)

start mining the sheep hill so it will be ready for the Republic switch

turn 9 (775bc)

galley heads back to mainland and ends turn in Roman waters

ibt

barb comes from out of the NE corner of our island
Carthage spartan => Great Library as place holder as we can't support more units right now. Maybe we should disband some of our regular warriors and replace them with better units

Theveste library => harbor (if you switch to a galley, it would waste the forest chop on a galley, so if you switch to a galley please assign the workers another task and save the forest chop for a city improvement)

turn 10 (750bc)

Spartan defeats barb, still doesn't sight camp
Spartan reinforcement sent towards NE

Treasury 18g, Lux 10%, Sci 50% for Republic in 19 at -1gpt. However our gpt deal with Rome should end sometime in the next few turns so hopefully will be able to increase sci rate

Firaxis score 230; Jason 305

>>>THE SAVE<<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Ivan_SG004_BC0750_01.SAV)

Differential naval movement means that your suicide galleys (usually) only need to survive 1 turn at sea. These galleys have 6 movement points (coast costs 3, sea 2, ocean 1). You can cross a lot of open water in 1 turn.

Which directions should we send suicide galleys? I'm thinking straight west from Theveste (where we build them). would be the easiest.

Map and contact trading would be pushed out to late midlle age techs. Check the original c\game announcement page for details of these changes.

I'll be off line for the weekend so good luck to those who play.

Thanks Adrian, I wasn't finding that kind of explanation on the site.

I took a look at RRau's save and it seems we'll be finishing the Lighthouse in 5 turns (very nice). Utica could then pop out a galley in 3 turns. In the mean time, Theveste should be switched back to build another galley... we could either make use of the chop for that or stop the chop since I'm not sure we really want to chop those trees anyway.

Sidenote: We should not have chopped the forest in the tundra. Forested and roaded that spot produced 1 food, 2 shields and 2 trade. With the mine it produces 1 food 1 shield and 2 trade. It's a long term loss, plus the lost worker time.

So back to the boats. I'm expecting that during the next 10 turns we should get a new boat on the west coast and the east and their movement should be increased to 7 by the lighthouse. I think our current nearly dead galley should head back to the tiny island and scout as best it can until the lighthouse is finished at which point we should start sending suicides west, east and that one south. I've attached some pictures which I think show possible routes based on the math Adrian showed us.

I have the current boat returning south based on the idea of a new boat coming out of utica. If you decide to build a library first then that idea would change and the current boat should probably finish circling the island.

If we can make contact soon and get ceremonial burial we can start building some temples to allow increased growth and culture expansion.

http://WestCoast.jpg

http://SouthEast.jpg

Here is the link to the GOTM features page for this GOTM

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/gotm28_features.shtml

Note that we have a conquests style republic government features. Can we afford the 2gpt maintenance for units?
Would monarchy be preferable?

We can definitely afford Republic... and the decision has basically already been made. By the time we get to Republic 3 of our cities should be size 7 and it won't be long after that the other two build aquaducts and likewise grow. Then we should have a nice number of units permitted and the extra commerce from being a republic should more than offset the extra unit costs. I don't think we're planning on attacking anyone for a while yet so we don't have to worry about building up an oversized military until our economy is really humming. We just have to keep Rome happy with Per Turn deals and make sure our military doesn't get so small that we look like a juicy target. We should try to upgrade our warriors in the next 30 or so turns either to swordsmen or by disbanding in favor of horsemen.

Certanly, we can afford Republic. Moreover, this is only option with 5CC. The real problem is politics with Romans. AFAIK, gpt deals, gifts, RoP, Peace renegotiation, etcs., do not Guaranty against sneak attacks or demand for tribute. We should be ready for war at any moment. We have to mantain relible defence line AND have some archers to attack Antium (and destroy).
BTW, got file, will write more when look at it.

I'v played til 530BC .
Will send turlog soon.
Ivan.

0 Preturn:
Change production at Carthage and Leptis to Granary, set Lux 0%, Mkmg Carthage.
1 730 BC Got 25 from barb camp. Set sci 80%. Send workers to build road Pompei-Rome. (why nobody did it before?)
2 710 BC Theveste -> Galley, Leptis-> Wall. Kelts build Oracle.
3 690 BC
4 670 BC Nothing
5 650BC Utica Lighthouse-> Library, mkmg for growth. Theveste Galley->Harbor. send Galleys West and east.
6 630 BC East Galley spot Vikings. Trade CoL for Math+1g. West Galley spot Indians. We up CoL, Philosophy, Math, Literature, they up CB and HBR. Trade Math to Romans for 251 gold. Sci 100%.
7 610 BC Embassy in Deli 41g (2 spear+1 net turn, 1 fur+1 Horse), West Galley spot Persian. Our Army strong vs Vikings, Indians, Persian and average vs Rome. Trade CoL to Persian for 13 gold, they have Philosophy. Trade Philosophy to Indians for HBR+15 gold, Spices to Rome for CB+72 gold. (All they have). Set Galley in Hippo and Temple at Carthege.
8 590 BC East Galley found Babs and Germany Border. Lux 10%, mkmng Carthage and Letis. Workes->home.
9 570 BC Babs up Mysticism and belo Philo, CoL and Literature. Romans finished Pyramids in Rome and start TGL in Rome. (Very good). We shall NOT trade Literature to anybody. let’s Romans finish TGL. They will not have other contacts and will NOT benefite from TGL. We will if capture Rome.
10 550BC Contact Ottomans. They are the same as Babs, but less gold.(3 Cities only)
11 530 BC Discover Republic->Currency. Revolt for 3 turns. Contact.Germans They are the same as Babs and Ottomans. Trade Philosophy to Babs for 85 gold and to Germans for Mysticism and 35 gold. Blocked two Romans Settler-Spear couples.
Suggestions-Recommendations. IMHO that game is done as the matter of fact. We only have to decide what type of victory we want. In short term future we can trade with Rome (say Ivory for wool +gold), in mid term we will trade with Indians and Persia. We will build horses to prepare to war. I think we will not give any techs to Rome and if they demand we reject and go to war. We have enough troops NOT let them in our border. (We do not need MP now). When scouting sea do not stop at coast (Stop at sea ONLY) barb galleys will not attack then. We also may make embassy at persepol to know more map.

got it and will play and post tonight. (should be done 6 hours from now) Good work all so far. Sorry I wasn't able to post and comment over the weekend, i've been pretty busy with work lately and it was a long weekend here so I had a bit of a "de-stress" weekend. (and it was my birthday too so all round I was feeling fairly sick coming to work today :-)

preturn
all looks good.

510BC (1)
zzz

490BC (2)
zzz

470BC (3)
We are now a republic
sci30%, lux10%, +4gpt, 370g, Currency 14t

450BC (4)
zzz

430BC (5)
zzz

410BC (6)
build embassy in persepolis

390BC (7)
Leptis court->hoplite

370BC (8)
Utica Library->harbor
Theveste harbor->granary
hmm, vikings or germany got construction last turn and traded for poly with babs
Babs will give us the best deal for it at 329g, will leave for next player to decide. (8t till we get currency)

350BC (9)
argh we just got a piece of palace and I clicked on a second storey then realised the base was from different set. (we nowhave a mongrel palace)
ew, then I moved a accidently when switching back to civ :-(
Theres an archer in neoCarthage for barb hunting and there are a couple of hops heading south to replace warriors down

there.

Firaxis: 290
Jason: 384


>>> SAVE <<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Ivan_SG004_BC0350_01.SAV)

the embassy pic:

I think we should trade Tech and LuX more efficently. Defenetly, we must have Sci>50%. Also, we may build colony at Ivory and trade to Persia for fur+gold. What Babs or Vikings give for Republic? We may set embassy in Babilon to see what contacts they have. I suspect Vikings are isolated.
Also we can trade Ivory to Romans for wool and gold.
We also may pre-build something everywhere to get Marketplases in core Cities.

there are a few warriors we could disband to improve our economy, i was using them to block the romans. (but there is an over kill of units down there now)

Preturn

Trades
Ivory to Rome for Wool and 49G
Republic to Babylon for Construstion, Polytheism and 83G
Poly to Persia for Furs, Horses and 6G
Rep to Germany for 41G
Math to india for 14G
Poly to Ottomans for 29G
Republic to Greece for 35G
Poly to Rome for 3G and 7GPT

set research to 100% for currency in 2
change production in Leptis (temple), theveste (temple) and Carthage(courthouse)

press enter
IBT Rome complains about our troops

1. 330BC move galleys
IBT learn currency -> engineering

2. 310BC Switch Cartgage , Utica and leptis to Marketplace
IBT spot Roman boat and Indian boat heading to our north

3. 290BC disband 1 warrior

4. 270BC disband 1 warrior
IBT Indians found Kolhapur in our territory
Carthage - Market -> horseman
Leptis market -> Temple
Theveste Temple -> market

5. 250Bc - nothing

6. 230BC Carthage - horse -> horse

7. 210BC nothing

8. 190BC Hippo Harbor -> temple
Utica market-> harbor

9. 170BC sell spices to Rome for 27G and 2GPT

10. 150BC wounded galley spots dark green border (must be Celts)

Persia and India have contacted Rome.
Engineering is due in 1 turn. I held off on selling currency until we got engineering so we could immediately trade for monotheism when the scientific civs get it.

I irrigated some land around Utica to promote growth. I started a massive irrigation project to bring water to Hippo and Theveste so they can grow. Hippo needs the three grasslands in its radius irrigated. Theveste needs a aquaduct.

Things are starting to get interesting.

Before we go any farther (I think I'm next) I'd like to know if we're going the top or bottom route on tech. Are we going for science for sure as we discussed? This is our last chance to choose a militaristic route and go towards military tradition and cavalry.

I personally feel we are on the correct road planning to go for the science and diplomacy route. If anyone feels up to it, we need to start planning a pre-build for the copernicus observatory.

I still prefer the science route. Will we beeline to Education and from there to ToG and try to trade for other techs?

I reckon education as well, uni's will be nice with limited cities.

Preturn

Trades
Ivory to Rome for Wool and 49G
Republic to Babylon for Construstion, Polytheism and 83G
Poly to Persia for Furs, Horses and 6G
???Rep to Germany for 41G
???Math to india for 14G
???Poly to Ottomans for 29G
???Republic to Greece for 35G
???Poly to Rome for 3G and 7GPT

2) I irrigated some land around Utica to promote growth. I started a massive irrigation project to bring water to Hippo and Theveste so they can grow. Hippo needs the three grasslands in its radius irrigated. Theveste needs a aquaduct.
??? trades: What for??? This is a plain gift!!!. For examle we could trade Republic for MONOTHEISM... I think conquest might be fastest option to win. It is lot easer to do when AI's thechnologically backward. Or we want Diplo? I think, anyway better to capture Rome. We may do it with LB (Invention). Hippo is disposable City, we will have to abonded it when capture Rome. (Workers for Ivory Colonies).
When we get Engineering we can plant/cut forest arond Hippo, and produce workers from Hippo (instead of Temple). The same operation can be done with all mined grasslands that we going to irrigate. Also, we can use workers to grow Utica.
Land around Carthage should be forest/ mined when it grow to size 12. I think war with Rome will be at around 20 turns from now. TGL in Rome might be ready at this time.
Regards, Ivan.

Things are starting to get interesting.

Before we go any farther (I think I'm next) I'd like to know if we're going the top or bottom route on tech. Are we going for science for sure as we discussed? This is our last chance to choose a militaristic route and go towards military tradition and cavalry.

I personally feel we are on the correct road planning to go for the science and diplomacy route. If anyone feels up to it, we need to start planning a pre-build for the copernicus observatory.
You are next. I think we have to combine military/sciense approach. Better to capture Rome to benefite from TGL or, at least, not let them benefite from it. Correct tech route is Feudalism->Invention, and we will see next. Copernicus City is Cartage, so we need some wonder to prebuild. Will think more, when see save.
Ivan

Ivan

I am having a hard time understanding what you want us to do. In post 79 you say make more trades and now you are saying I shouldn't have traded what I did.

Please explain your ideas more clearly. Take some time and communicate *exactly* and *in detail* what you are thinking and planning.

Basically I traded for as much cash as I could get to finance 80 to 100% research. Our economy can not support high research. Furthermore trading republic for 2 techs is a good deal in my books. I then traded it away to whoever had cash that might have been able to buy it from Babylon. We might as well benefit not Babylon.

Adrian

Adrian,
I think first 4 trades was OK, but the rest cuold wait for future for better deal. It is difficult compromise to trade or not. Personally, I think 50% of price is OK, but 14g for Math is too little. BTW, did Romans payed normal price for Polytheism or you stop at "they never accept this deal?" In this case we may save Ivory (offer Poly instead: Now we bound for 19 turns...)
Resonable to have embassy with Babs to see their contacts.
Also, Mad-Bax said that only Babs Scintific at our game. What about Greeks, Persia and Germans? I think we may wait for trade Currency to see situation to have more money from this trade. What do you think about Sci/Military ballance?
Edit I cant make detailed instruction for any step, in fact you loose not too much gold I think.

Ok, I've played my turns.

150 Pre-turn: Change Hippo to Market, change leptis to archers

I think Ivan is correct that longbows is our best bet for an offensive unit because we don't have access to any iron. Disband some warriors to save cash.

IBT: Engineering -> Feudalism in 8 turns.

1) 130BC: deal with greeks, currency for 8 and germans currency for 15 then engineering for monotheism. Change Carthage to Cathedral: will allow for end of luxury use = 12gpt and increase culture expansion.

2) 110BC: Leptis: Archer -> Archer

Contact Keltoi who have nothing and no trade route... way behind in tech.

IBT Romans start great wall in Veii, still building great library in rome
(We should consider checking on how close library is to complete before starting war with Rome).

3) 90BC: Move units

4) 70BC: Leptis: Archer ->Archer

IBT Athens completes great wall

5) 50BC: move units

6) 30BC: Leptis Archer ->Archer

7) 10BC: Utica Harbor ->Temple

IBT: Feudalism ->Invention in 11 turns Science to 70% = -13gpt

8) 10AD: Carthage: Cathedral -> Archer Lux to 0% = -1gpt
Leptis Archer ->Archer

9) 30AD: Carthage: Archer ->Archer

IBT lost horse & furs

10) 50AD: Trade Persia construction for furs, horses & 24gold... no gpt.

Set science to 60%, Lux 0% invention in 10 turns, +4gpt.
We need to have cash to upgrade archers when invention completes and then attack Rome. That should start our golden age shortly and then we'll proceed to the tech route. Carthage should start a pre-build soon assuming golden age will increase tech pace giving astronomy in approximately 30 turns.

Ok, I cross posted with Ivan.

I believe that Babylon is actually NOT scientific in this game. I traded currency to Greek and Germans and they did get monotheism immediately. I guess we could have waited to get monotheism but I wanted a cathedral and I'm hoping one of them will research theology for us.

Ok, I've played my turns.

150 Pre-turn: Change Hippo to Market, change leptis to archers

I think Ivan is correct that longbows is our best bet for an offensive unit because we don't have access to any iron. Disband some warriors to save cash.

IBT: Engineering -> Feudalism in 8 turns.

1) 130BC: deal with greeks, currency for 8 and germans currency for 15 then engineering for monotheism. Change Carthage to Cathedral: will allow for end of luxury use = 12gpt and increase culture expansion.

We need to have cash to upgrade archers when invention completes and then attack Rome. That should start our golden age shortly and then we'll proceed to the tech route. Carthage should start a pre-build soon assuming golden age will increase tech pace giving astronomy in approximately 30 turns.
I think trade currency may wait for 8 turns at least. To be first at Copernicus we have to delay their Sciense....

Note: All the civs have their original correct traits, except Babylon. Greeks, Ottomans, Persians and Germans are all scientific, only the Babylonians are not.

got it....

It was my day off, so went ahead and played :)

>>>THE SAVE<<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Ivan_SG004_AD0250_01.SAV)

preturn (50ad)

looks good

ibt: carthage archer => archer (only prebuild for SunTzu's is due in 29turns - will complete before we get astronomy)

turn 1 (70ad)

Move workers to start irrigating in Leptis Magna after they finished roading/mining a mountain - not growing much anymore

ibt: Carthage archer => archer, Leptis Magna archer=> cathedral

turn 2 (90ad)

irrigate in Leptis Magna

ibt: Carthage archer => archer, Utica temple => rax

turn 3 (110ad)

more irrigation in Leptis Magna

ibt: Carthge archer => archer

turn 4 (130ad)

move workers to start mining mountain in Leptis Magna

ibt: Carthage archer => archer; Rome completes Great Library

turn 5 (150ad)

not much

ibt: Carthage archer => archer; Theveste aquaduct => rax

turn 6 (170ad)

mining around Carthage

ibt: Carthage archer => archer; Utica rax => cathedral

turn 7 (190ad)

have 3rd ivory hooked up (border expanded) but no one to trade it with except Persia (knows monarchy - the only tech we're down, but we don't need it) :(

ibt: Carthage archer => archer

turn 8 (210ad)

foresting around Hippo

ibt: Carthage archer => archer

turn 9 (230ad)

not much

ibt: Carthage archer => archer; Theveste rax => horse; Hippo market => worker

turn 10 (250ad)

not much


Notes:

We have 20 archers and compared to Rome our military is "average" so after upgrades, we should be better than them

We complete Invention on this ibt

We can cancel our trade agreement with Rome at any time

I didn't start a prebuild for Copernicus as SunTzu now completes in 28 turns, which I think would be too soon once our GA starts

Firaxis 385, Jason 505

Dear All, I think it is time to decide finally about victory condition. Let's look at things realisically. All AIs Technologically bacward and have no money to support our research. If we decide Diplo win we have to research all Industrial Techs and Fusion ourself. With 5 Cities only it will take 600 turns approximately. Also it is a risk to loose UN vote at Diplo. Conquest, I think it will take 180 turns maximum. If we want to win this competition and avoid wooden spoon we MUST consider Conquest as a victory condition. I think, however Copernicus will help to research faster, but Newton will appear too late to help.
I think I will star war with Romans NOW. I am sure, that 20 LB will capture Rome, but I'll ignore TGL and will go to Theology-Education-Astronomy route. We also have to decide will we kill Romans at this war or let them sometime alive (I see no reason...). Also we have to build some fleet and decide who is next target...

Ok, I cross posted with Ivan.

I believe that Babylon is actually NOT scientific in this game. I traded currency to Greek and Germans and they did get monotheism immediately. I guess we could have waited to get monotheism but I wanted a cathedral and I'm hoping one of them will research theology for us.
I see. I think, however that they are hopeless and we have to research Theology ourself.

I admit I am surprised at how slow the AI research has been in this game. However, this is my first 5cc and I'm unsure about making it a conquest victory condition just because I've never played a 5cc before. If the rest of the team votes to try for conquest I'm willing to try it.

I agree about eliminating Rome

If we go the conquest route, after Astronomy, I think we need to research Military Tradition

I am interested in conquering the world. Perhaps Persia and India should be our LAST targets because they are the only civs we can trade with to get horses. I haven't looked closely but I think that we can't get any other trade routes until navigation. Last time I checked none of the mainland civs had any harbors anyway.


I think we might want to research banking right away after astronomy so that we'll have the extra cash to support our troops and a faster tech pace. On the other hand, getting gunpowder soon is important so we know wether or not we'll have access to it and progress directly to military tradition. I would vote for banking but I think reasonable people could differ.

One interesting alternative would be to gift Persia and India to education and try to get them to research banking and the other top side techs. They are kind of stuck on that island without much room to expand so we should still be able to conquer them in the end. Of course, if they get navigation or astronomy it could be a big problem of them settling the spaces we empty.

I just remembered there's at least one one tile island settled out there so we are going to need to remember to ask for that in a peace treaty before it becomes that civ's captial.

Here is the save. I'll write turlog shortly. I think research route might be Education->Astronomy>Gunpowder to see do we have Saltpeter. We may research navigation next if we want trade without restriction. Also it let us trade WM, to know land better. We should place Romans workers around Ivory not let India/Persia settle nearby. Persia agrees to trade Horses or Fur+gold for Ivory. Not sure, we need it now. May be we Declare them and ask India for alliance? [It is bad idea, just for discussion].

I'd be willing to write up our ancient age report if everyone else is agreeable. If anyone else has some kind of interest in writing please let me know... I just have an interest in strategy and want to read the other teams reports.

0 250AD Preturn:
Move Hoplits and archers to attack Antium and Pompei.
IBT Romans popup : They do not want deal Ivory-wool. No problemo. Persian popup. They demand Ivory. Send them of. They become cautuous. Three Cities riot. Invention>Theology.
1 260 AD lux 10%. Move one Hoplite to Pompei. Upgrade 10 archers.
IBT Gracious romans gently ask to remove troops. I “agree”.
2 270 AD Cancel deal with Romans and declare war. Move troops to Antium-Pompei. Kill spear at Settler couple. Upgrade 1 Archer.
IBT Palace expand.
3 280 AD destroy Pompei. 1LB lost, 3 Legs killed.
IBT 2 Legs attack Hoplite,->2/5, GA starts.
4 290 AD Move more LB to Antium, Sci 0%.
IBT Romans move but not attack.
5 300 AD Destroy Antium. Build Colony at wool. Lux 0%, Sci 50%. Upgrade all archers. Fight near Rome. Partially retreat. Fight near wool Colony.
6 310 AD Kill warrior/spear pair. Continue advance to Rome. Fight near wool Colony. Lux 0%, Sci 50%.
7 320 AD Fight near wool Colony. Continue advance to Rome. (10 LB, 2 Horses, 1 Hoplite)
IBT Romans Kill horse near wool, and LB near Rome. Unload Leg near Cartage.
8 330 AD Finally approach Rome. Will take next turn. Kill 2Legs and Archer. Attack Leg near Cartage, lose horse and LB. Will kill next turn.
IBT Romans want to talk. NOT now. Horse retreat vs Leg. LB win vs warrior.
9 340 AD Kill 2/5 leg near Cartage. Capture Rome. Some LB left to attack Pisa next turn. Sell improvements in Hippo and abounded it. Change LBs to Persian swords. Build Colonies at Ivory. Our Workers will joint City to benefite more from GA. WW 20%, set Lux 10%.
10 350AD Got Monarchy from TGL. Destroy Pisa. Regroupe to attack Neapolis-Cuma. Our deal with Persia over. Not sure that we want continue it. Next player decide.

I'd be willing to write up our ancient age report if everyone else is agreeable. If anyone else has some kind of interest in writing please let me know... I just have an interest in strategy and want to read the other teams reports.
Yes, please, the key element of our strategy was good relation with Romans to speed up research. We were lucky with lighthouse to have many contacts, but can't discuss it.

Very nice turns Ivan,

I think that we want both horses AND furs so before the end of the current turn we should trade monarchy to the Indians for both. Monarchy is a dead tech anyway and the Indians still lack currency and construction so we shouldn't have to worry about them catching up. Then we can save ivory for a better deal and leave the option open for war with the Persians.

I think astronomy, gunpowder, navigation sounds fine. I looked around and the ottomans do have a harbor on the main continent so navigation should get us a trade route with several of those civs.

The Romans don't seem quite ready to surrender fully so we'll need to keep warring with them at least for now. Once Rome is pacified and those troops are healed please everyone make sure not to leave too many troops in it at once. We can't afford to lose our army to a culture flip.

I can't wait to see your turn log Ivan, that was a great job of military conquest and I think I might learn something from it.

excellent turns :goodjob:

Whomever we declare on next, I think we need to keep our options open for trade of horses until the last civ as with only 5 cities and none on our island (that I can recall) we won't be able to access them unless we build a city on those islands and disband one on ours.

I've posted a spoiler on the ancient age thread for our team. I think the other teams spoilers are very interesting... especially team offa who is currently in the lead after an early conquest of Rome which yeilded them a great leader allowing them to build a forbidden palace in "new rome" after a peace settlement temporarily bumped them to 8 cities. They also have the great lighthouse (completed in 800BC in Theveste... a lot more BG's than our Utica had) and entered the middle ages only a few turns behind us. I've read several posts by Klarius before and I'm almost certain that they will go straight for cavalry and a very rapid global conquest.

I'm not sure that we will be able to achieve a conquest victory before them. Would we have a better shot at the laurels with a rapid diplo or space victory? We are ahead in science, but pretty far behind in conquest.

Diplomatic victory is actually a sure thing if we build the United Nations and then make military alliances with a majority of nations against some sucker. However, we might be hampered in this because of our conquest of Rome.

The other two posts are both going for 20k victories.

The team Offa's post indicates it is possible to get a FP. If we can get 3 cities from Rome in a peace treaty or build 3 settlers ourselves or some combination of them we can get a FP too.

Diplomatically, I believe each war declaration is a +1 and each razed city is also a +1. We can eliminate Rome and still be OK for a diplomatic victory. We just need to make sure the AI's fight each other.

I played with Klarius before on Xteam and he will definately push the team go straight to Cav and use the resource disconnection trick to mass produce horsemen for upgrade to cavalry.

1) The team Offa's post indicates it is possible to get a FP. If we can get 3 cities from Rome in a peace treaty or build 3 settlers ourselves or some combination of them we can get a FP too.

2) Diplomatically, I believe each war declaration is a +1 and each razed city is also a +1. We can eliminate Rome and still be OK for a diplomatic victory. We just need to make sure the AI's fight each other.

3) I played with Klarius before on Xteam and he will definately push the team go straight to Cav and use the resource disconnection trick to mass produce horsemen for upgrade to cavalry.
1) It is good to have FP in Rome but we have to eleminate Romans completely. Culture flip chance is low, but...
We may have 3 Settlers ready for virtual Cities and, I think GL. However it is not very very important.
2) I think we will be able to win diplomatically if we set this goal. But our score will be much lower. [If I wrong explain me, please].
3 ) Probably it is fastest tactics (Cavs on Galleys). Will see. I will try mine. I think Astronomy-Navigation let us travel overseas faster and bring more troops, and LB and Persian Swords are good enough for attack. Probably we manage to get Sanitation in resonable time and have Huge Cartage.
BTW, how many workers we allowed to join to City per/turn (SGOTM rule)?

I don't know much about how the Jason score is calculated. However, it seems that with the 5cc conquest variant the normal advantage of domination / conquest victories will be removed. I believe that they are normally the highest scoring victories because they control the most territory, the most citizens ... are the most POWERFUL. However, in 5cc they will not be able to take advantage of that. Once we research navigation and open trading routes with all civs we will be able to make a large segment of our population very happy and possibly develop a good score.

It might even be the case that we can complete a diplomatic or space victory in a very good time relative to the Jason date. I'll try and find some articles about how the scoring is calculated.

I'm not opposed to pursuing conquest, I just want to make sure that we're following our best strategy for success.

In GOTM 28 on which this game is based the following "best dates" were used. These seem to favor a conquest victory. Which of these dates can we achieve?

Conquest 1200AD
Cultural 20k 1760AD
Cultural 100k 1555AD
Diplomatic 1010AD
Domination 970AD
Space Race 1330AD


These values are the product of a system of modifiers that has been developed for the Jason score formula. To find out more about the formula and how it works, go to the "calculator" page.

We defenetely miss Culture 20 k, and I think Diplo at 1010 also impossible. I think Space at 1330 at 5CC not accessible. Conquest at 1200 might be, but very hard.
What M-bax will tell?

We can declare vs Persian and ask Gandy Fur, horses and Alliance vs Persia fo Monarchy. It is good move, I think (If we want Conquest).

That sounds good to me.

We may also want to check the scores and pick out which of the continental civs has the highest score... then declare war on them and ally several other civs against them to keep the continent week and a slow tech pace.

We must keep our opponents from getting to navigation.

That sounds good to me.

We may also want to check the scores and pick out which of the continental civs has the highest score... then declare war on them and ally several other civs against them to keep the continent week and a slow tech pace.

We must keep our opponents from getting to navigation.

agree with weakening other civs with wars

sorry, been away. Just checked this morning and I'm up. Will play this morning, but I have to catch up on the posts. So got it and will post in a couple of hours.

To Nemesis666. We agree to declare Persia and make alliance with India vs Persia for Monarchy. Also ask Fur and Horses. Try to finish Romans. We may also prebuild in core Cities Universirties when approach education. Join OUR workers to Utica and Then. Romans worker should "defend" Ivory. It looks that Greeks is strongest overseas civ, but we may wait when they declare to us.

Score is irrelevant.

The laurel goes to the team with the fastest finish relative to the best date for the victory condition.

If team 1 wins a conquest victory 50 turns after the best date for a conquest victory with a score of 5000 and team 2 wins a diplomatic victory 40 turns after the best date for a diplomatic victory with a score of 4000, then team 2 wins.

Score is irrelevant.

The laurel goes to the team with the fastest finish relative to the best date for the victory condition.

If team 1 wins a conquest victory 50 turns after the best date for a conquest victory with a score of 5000 and team 2 wins a diplomatic victory 40 turns after the best date for a diplomatic victory with a score of 4000, then team 2 wins.
I see. that mean that we will compite for Green laurel with Offa. IMHO that 20 k Culture will give best result vs 1760 AD. It is much esear to conquest before 1200 AD then build spaceship before 1350 AD. (Though I think both impossible). I think, however we will stay at 5CC as decided at the begining, and will try my route for 5CC Conquest: Astronomy>Gunpowder>Navigation>Chemestry>Metalurgy>MT>Banking>
Physics>ToG>Magnetism>Medecine>Sanitation. (1360-1400 AD). I think it will be enough. [We may finish well before if we will be lucky and MT will be enough to win.].

I'll be out of town until the 18th so if my turn comes up soon please skip me if Rrau is ready to play.

who's up anyway?

Since Nemesis666 didn't post anything within 72 hours AdreanE is up. Please take my save file from post #100 and play 10 turns. Regards, Ivan.

OK

I'll play Thursday evening my time.

We want the Indians to attack Persia. We will cleanse our continent of Romans. Do we want to send an expeditionary force to Persia?

I'll see if I can start a FP in Rome.

Anything else?

Adrian

Don't forget to prebuild universities when education will be coming up. Use wonders for prebuild. When Romans will be destroyed we can consider expedition to Persia. My experience shows that 6-8 units should be sent. We may make RoP with Indians and accumulate troops before attack at their land.

Turn log

Summary: A Great leader used for Sistines. Rome almost destroyed. War with Persia. The city of Rome starved down to 1 Roman citizen.

350AD - not much
360AD - movement, send workers to block off Indians from Kolhapur
370AD - Carthage riots because of the war - lux to 20%
380AD - destroy some Roman town on east coast
IBT barbs appear near our ivory, spot Indian settler at Kolhapur
390AD - raze Curmae, kill 1 barb, get a great leader
IBT - Persian horse settler combo appears north of theveste
400AD - Rush Sistine Chapel in Rome - that should solve our happiness problems
eliminate barbs

I thought a lot about this. I thought about saving the leader for a FP but the happiness issue will hurt us as we can't afford to spend money on luxes.

Declare war on Persia - eliminate horse and 2 two slaves
Get India to ally with us for Monarchy. They kick in Furs and Horses!

410 to 430 AD bring up troops for siege of Veii. Leader fish a bit. Destroy Roman town in SE corner of our island.

440Ad take Veii. Sell barracks. abandon. I thought Veii would have more stuff to sell.

450AD move troops up to Hispalis. There are some elites on the way. We can fish for leaders by ONLY attacking with elite troops.

I prefer Leo vs Sinste, but I normally relay on Lux and do no build Cathedral. WW will easer when Romans get rid.

got it....

>>>THE SAVE<<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Ivan_SG004_AD0550_01.SAV)

preflight (450ad)

wake galleys in Persian water and send towards Rome's last city to pick up troops in a couple turns after they are destroyed

ibt: Leptis Magna: horse => persian Mercenary

turn 1 (460ad)

wake fortified workers and begin massive roading project for faster troop movements (then will refortify for blockade of our island)

ibt:

fended off archer attack with no loss of hp
Theveste courthouse => SunTzu's for prebuild

turn 2 (470ad)

move another elite next to last Roman city.
move sci slider as low as possible for Gunpowder still in 1 turn

ibt

learn Gunpowder, start Education
Leptis Magna Persian Merc => Palace prebuild

turn 3 (480ad)

We have Saltpeter N of Carthage in our territory
moved last of healed elites next to last Roman city, will attack with elites next turn

ibt:

GA ended
Utica Collosseum => galley

turn 4 (490ad)

Bombard with the 3 catapults - loss of 1 hp from Roman Legion
Attack with Elite Longbow, wins vs reg spear, no leader
Attack with Elite Persian Merc, wins vs 2hp Roman Legion, WE GET A LEADER: Caesar Killer who captures last Roman city. [dance] There was nothing to sell off. Hisapalis abandoned. Leader Mago sent to Rome.
Switch Leptis Magna, Utica and Theveste to settlers so we can temporarily get enough cities to rush FP in Rome (50% corrupt)
Our people are much happier :)
Finished road project and workers refortified
Start a couple boatloads of troops to Persia to pillage their horses

ibt zzz

turn 5 (500ad)

unloaded troops on top of Persian horses
Rushed Temple in Rome
Will be able to rush FP next turn

ibt

Persia unloads a settler next to a stack of our troops on our island. How nice of Persia to donate workers to our cause :evil:

turn 6 (510ad)

settled 3 temporary cities
Rushed FP in Rome
Abandoned the 3 temporary cities
Attacked reg pike with vet persian merc, won, promoted to elite (no elite troops nearby to attack with)
Pillaged Persian Horses

ibt

Rome FP => rax
Utica Galley => galley

Turn 7 (520ad)

not much

ibt: our troops in Persian lands died :(

turn 8 (530ad)

not much - waiting for more galleys

ibt Utica galley=> Persian Merc

turn 9 (540ad)

not much

ibt

Persia landed a warrior and Immortal on our island

turn 10 (550ad)

I lost a horse against the Immortal and didn't want to lose a Persian Merc (the only other troop positioned to attack this turn), so moved a stack of troops with our cats next to the Persians for attack next turn. There are a couple galleys loaded with troops fortified off the coast south of Leptis Magna.

firaxis 457; Jason 605

Got it. That's a pity that we can't abonded something.
Parsagrad is very atractive City.

Good morning folks, I'm getting married today in lovely California. I'm staying with my father in-law to be and passing time on the morning of my wedding as all grooms tend to do.

It looks like things have been going pretty well for the team. Conquering Rome and nabbing Sistine's and the FP should really help our economy as we move forward.

I think that if we really wanted to capture a Persian city we could abandon Leptis. It can't grow beyond size 11 unless I'm mistaken. It also seems that we have a huge crew of captured workers and after the settler builds our cities are probably not full size... so if we have any natural workers left we should use them to jump our cities back to full strength.

I just realized that Ivan is up next... go captain Ivan, I think you've shown that you are the best player on our team.

@ dcstevez - congrats.

I think there may only be one native worker left. I think I had joined one of the two we had to Utica already.

I also like the idea of keeping Parsegade - it has horses and another lux.

0 550AD Pre-turn Production changed. Prebuilding university in Theveste and Utica. Luxury 0, Science 80, Education in 4 turns. Ivory and Spice for 56gold and 9 gpt with Indians. Killed Persian Immortal and Warrior. Sent troops to hill near Parsagrade. Some workers joined Rome, some sent near Rome for forestry operation, built Wool colony.
IBT Persian Galleys sail. Indians build Jaipur.
1 560AD Accidentaly trade monarchy to Ottomans, 20+4gpt. Unload more troops near Parsagrade. Upgrade one musketeer.
IBT Persian attack from Parsagrade, kill one horse.
2 570AD Kill one immortal near Parsagrade, lose 2 LB trying to take Parsagrade. Unload musketeer on hill near Parsagrade.
IBT Persian Galleys sail, Immortals run away.
3 580AD Bring more troops to Parsagrade. Sold Wool to Indians for 12+6gpt
IBT Immortals return. Researched education, started Astronomy, Science 100
4 590AD Attack Parsagrade, lose LB and wounded elite horse loads to galley. Unload more troops.
IBT Greek conventional wisdom demands Theology. Refuse and they declare war. Persian Immortals run away again. Changed Library to Marketplace in Rome.
5 600AD Established embassy with Ottomans in Sogut for 101. There is 4 lux, 4 spearmen and all improvements except colosseum complete in 8turns there. Signed military alliance vs Greeks for feudalism and received 30+3gpt. Bombard Parsagrade, unload more troops.
IBT Persians unload Immortals near Leptis.
6 610AD Stormed Parsagrade. Only redlined immortal left.
IBT Immortals attack Leptis and die. Leptis builds university and changes to horse. Palace improves.
7 620AD Capture and raze Parsagrade. Kill Immortal near Parsagrade.
IBT Persians kill LB
8 630AD Battles near Parsagrade leave no reserves for further offensive. Lose a Galley near Leptis.
IBT Lose an elite Immortal. Barbarians near Rome. Lose a horse near Leptis. Indians begin building Sun Tzu.
9 640AD Kill an Immortal and unload more troops. Workers build a fortress there.
IBT Real disaster happens. Persians capture Karachi leaving no trade route with Indians, as a result we lose our reputation. Our military alliance also ceases to exist. Rome riots due to a lack of luxury, Utica finishes university, changed to Persian Mercenary. Persians attack and sink our Galley.
10 650AD Science 60, Astronomy next turn, killed Persian Immortal, Rome stops rioting. As team leader decide to make a crucial move. Make peace with Persians and receive 62+1gpt. Build wool colony near former Parsagrade. Sell monotheism to Indians for horse and 4+23gpt. Sell wool and ivory to Persians 4+10gpt. Manage Rome.
IBT Astronomy researched, start Navigation, change Leonardos to Copernicus Observatory in Carthage and lose 79shields.
11 660AD Copernicus finished and changed to University. Science 100, Navigation 5 turns.

Congratulations to dcstevez, thanks for the compliments, here is the save. Really, I didn't play in the best manner when storming Parsagrade. I should concentrate more troops and not waste LB one by one.

Good turns. I assume the plan for now is build galleys and troops. Any thoughts on who our next victim is going to be? I kind of like the idea of going after the Persians again since we can land troops where Parsagade used to be. Then use the workers from the abandoned towns to blockade the coast. We'll also be able to get a spice and horse colony by doing this.

I just can't decide if after that we will want to trim India down, leaving a coastal town so we can get our colony goods, or turn our attention elsewhere.

What's everyone else's thoughts/ideas/plans?

First we should not let Persian settle near our fur colony. Just put troops nearby at neitral tiles. If we upgrade galleys to caravels we will have enough ships to bring troops to Greeks. Currently we have more ships, then troops.
I think we can get Chivalry from somebody shortly, before that we should bild horses as much as we can, then upgrade to knights. Also it will be nice to bring Germans or Babilons to war vs Greeks. When we'll get navigation we will be able to trade WM, please do it in the best way, sometimes TM is enough to get their WM. With WM our Conquest plan will be more sensible. Also AI's WM let us know location of barb camps. Note, that our reputation bad only vs Indians, do not make peace with Greeks, to keep rep clean at large continent.
Build more Colonies at wool, we'll be able to trade overseas (silk from Kelts), I hope.
I think we can stay at our continent, and use Colonies for resurses. Leptis has to many imrouvements to abonded. Probably war with India will be more profitable then vs Greeks, the only pity that they pay us some gpt and provide Horses.

Is AdrianE up now since Nemesis didn't pick it up?

Is AdrianE up now since Nemesis didn't pick it up?
Yes, AdrianE up. Nemisis did not reply again within 72 hours.
Ivan

OK

It will be Thursday night my time when I play.

What do we want to do? Should I build up a knight based military? Or do we want to go straight for cavalry? Have we settled on conquest as our objective?

OK

It will be Thursday night my time when I play.

What do we want to do? Should I build up a knight based military? Or do we want to go straight for cavalry? Have we settled on conquest as our objective?
My plan for research is Navigation, Chemestry, Metalurgy. Then We'll see. We may want Sanitation ASAP, or MT. I think Conquest is OK, to wait Diplo is to slow.

I got the save and I played 3 turns last night.

We are at an important junction in the game.

We can't attack either Persia or India at present as we have long term deals (16 turns left) in place. Our current military is a mess.
Our 5 cities are in good shape. I am having the workers do some tile reassignment to get maximum productivity.

Rome needs a few more improvements (barracks, university, cathedral) and some population growth to be a fully productive city.

If we are going for conquest we need to do the following:
Get all the AI's fighting each other.
Get to Cavalry ASAP while building lots of horsemen to upgrade. Switch off research after that.
We will need 30+ cav to conquer the world.
Attempt to Build Leo's to cut down upgrade costs.
Seriously consider the use of the resource disconnection trick to build cheap cavalry.

If we are going for diplomacy we need to do the following:
Promote peace ASAP. Sign a deal with Greece.
Gift all the AI's up to our tech level and hope they research something useful.
Start prebuilds for the Scientific wonders.

Note that these are mutually exclusive plans. By taking Ivan's proposed middle road we will do neither well.

I think we're going to need cavs if we take over the world. I also think we need to build more cannon. Resource disconnection is fine with me.

Can we afford to build 2 stacks of 30 and send one East and one West?

Is there anyone we can buy navigation from to decrease the risk of our ships sinking and speed travel?

I think an easy diplo is out as our rep was shot when India lost their town and we ended up breaking a deal.

Another option is space race, but I don't think we've been focusing on the right infrastructure/research paths for a good score with that option.

OK I've played

660AD minor adjustments
IBT Rome completes market, order university

670AD IBT Germany tries to sell us Chivalry - I say no

680AD establish embassy with Germany, buy Germany into war with Greece, Chivalry and all their gold for Education

690AD - nothing

700Ad - nothing
IBT learn Navigation


710AD- Trades
Vikings WM and 56 gold for Monarchy
Persians TM and 2G for TM
Indians WM, 5G for TM
Ottomans TM, 11G for TM
Keltoi - establish embassy, get WM, 4G alliance versus Greeks for Monarchy
Babylon WM, 5G for TM
Germany WM for TM

730AD - disconnect iron, start building horses
embassy with Babylon, buy them into war with Greece

740AD - Ottomans and Greece sign treaty
deal with Kelts to get silks

750AD - nothing - stop here to get back on standard SG rotation

We are about 12 turns away from Cavalry. Then we need banking as we will need lots of cash.

Persia has kicked the crap out of India. They should be our first target.

Screenshots of the embassies

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Berlin1.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Entremont.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/babylon.jpg

:eek: Look at all the ivory the celts have.

also, if those are all the garrisons the capitals have, it should be fairly easy going through them with cavs/cannons.

AdrianE wrote:
1) We are at an important junction in the game.

2) We can't attack either Persia or India at present as we have long term deals (16 turns left) in place.
3) Our current military is a mess.
Our 5 cities are in good shape. I am having the workers do some tile reassignment to get maximum productivity.

Rome needs a few more improvements (barracks, university, cathedral) and some population growth to be a fully productive city.


4) If we are going for conquest we need to do the following:
Get all the AI's fighting each other.
Get to Cavalry ASAP while building lots of horsemen to upgrade. Switch off research after that.
We will need 30+ cav to conquer the world.
Attempt to Build Leo's to cut down upgrade costs.
Seriously consider the use of the resource disconnection trick to build cheap cavalry.


5) If we are going for diplomacy we need to do the following:
Promote peace ASAP. Sign a deal with Greece.
Gift all the AI's up to our tech level and hope they research something useful.
Start prebuilds for the Scientific wonders.


6) Note that these are mutually exclusive plans. By taking Ivan's proposed middle road we will do neither well.

End quote.

My reply:
1), 6) I agree that we stay too long at the middle road. As a result we will not win this competition. You may blame me if you want. I think we have to complete this game, however. The question is how to do it in most comfortable way. Just for my satisfaction I’d like to have 20+population Cities and have colonies on all lux. If you think that it is not what team want, let’s work out some other plan.

2), 3) Our reputation trashed with India, so we can start war at the moment when military will be ready. Edit: I think we may connect Iron and upgrade horses to knights. Declare to India. Kill them.
4). I prefer Conquest. To research all staff till UN is too boring. I’d like just Medicine, Sanitation and Steam Power from Industrial Age. I think we are strong and may kill them without “resources disconnection”. Leo costs 600 shields (approximately 2400 gold). To approve it economically we have to have 48 horses. I think that 30 will be enough. Now we have knights anyway. But next GL may build Leo.
5) I agree, that it is it is the best plan for Diplo. But for me it is mentally difficult to make gifts to AI.
Regards, Ivan

Ok, I've played my 10 turns. We are locked into Conquest... let's just see how fast we can do it. It's definitely our fastest road to victory from the current situation.

750: leave everything the same.
IBT barb attack nets elite horse

760 -> 770 -> 780 build horses

790 University completes in Rome, start cathedral
Persian ship spotted on west coast, scramble horses to intercept...
We lost horses because deal with India ended when bombay fell... move forces including elites north... build musketmen as placeholders

800 hook up iron, reinforced fort with musketmen and bows Send worker to possibly create horse colony in near delhi.

810

820 hook up new ivory colony (should have seen this sooner)
Ivory and wool to babylon for horses + 2gpt + WM + 2gold
change production to knights
ally with persia against india, + ROP + 18gold + wm

attack kolhapur and raze it

830 attack other town and raze it... campaign netted 2 elite victories

840 build wool colonies sout of rome (we were without wool for 2 turns)
Finish Metallurgy, start MT on a slow roll (10 turns +59gpt) to make sure we have cash when we get it.

850 ship knights to Persia
Rome needs a barracks

We could declare on Persia now and fight defensively for a while... maybe hit their iron (they don't have chivalry yet). We have a very strong fortress garrison for this.

We could also make a ROP and move our forces into position to violate the treaty when we're ready... I'd personally declare war now just for fun and to keep them from getting to scientific... the declaration will lose them 2 luxuries while the Indian cities still have the oppression fresh in their minds. We don't need the fur.

We should also evaluate our war with Greece and decide if peace with them would be more profitable... and maybe focus that war on Germany or someone else who we can't (or don't want to) trade with anyway.

Overall we've played very well guys.. we didn't have the most focused vision for victory but if you look at the graph we have done very well. We are in great position to achieve a 5cc on monarch without much difficulty... which is pretty cool for me. Let's finish this one out and have fun with it.

I hope everything is ok for nemesis, but I think we should assume he won't be playing any turns until we hear otherwise.

got it....

DSsteve wrote:
I hope everything is ok for nemesis, but I think we should assume he won't be playing any turns until we hear otherwise. End quote.
I agree. I'll play after rrau and if nemesis will not pop up AdrianE will play after me.
The discussion level is low, but it is OK, course is clear...

Suggestion-recommendation.
I think we should start war (and destroy Persian ASAP). Rrau, please. They have alternative Techs then other, discover Gunpowder already and know of our bad reputation. To prevent their communication we must kill them without mercy. I think, however, RoP break is bad thing (I don’t like it, but may be team think differently). Let’s play “civilized”. Cancel our agreement and declare. Tactical thing: build few explorers and send them from fortress area (or from nearby fortress Persian land (cover by musket) to pillage Saltpeter, Iron and break roads. They will die next turn, but it is OK, they are cheap. It is difficult even with Knights to break trough Muskets lines.
Regards, Ivan.

Note that it will be impossible to ship conquered resources/luxes home without at least 1 non-enemy city with a port per continent. Once we take out Persia we can't get anything from that continent home.

Colonies aren't very useful because of this.

The celts have a 1 tile island city. We will have to take it in a peace treaty.

I'd take out Persia and India first. Then Greece and sweep that continent from west to east. Maybe we can leave the ottomans to last as they are weak and backwards. They can ship our luxes/resources home. We will need a handful of cav to keep each continent clean and kill any barbs.

We will want to hit Greece with 30+ cav in a single blow.

>>>THE SAVE<<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Ivan_SG004_AD0950_01.SAV)

Preflight (850ad)

Change some knights to explorers to ship to Persia for pillaging

ibt: Persia wants to renew peace treaty - we don't have enough troops to make a difference over there right now, so agree until I can get more troops over there

turn 1 (860ad)

move troops

ibt: Persians complete Leo's in Persepolis

turn 2 (870ad)

move troops

ibt: not much

turn 3 (880ad)

continue moving troops

ibt: The ottomans, greeks, babylons and celts are all waring amongst themselves

turn 4 (890ad)

continue moving troops

ibt: zzz

turn 5 (900ad)

ibt: zzz

turn 6 (910ad)

move troops, start pillaging roads between Persian cities with resources

ibt: zzz

turn 7 (920ad)

move troops, continue pillaging roads between persian cities that have resources in them

ibt:

Persia asks us to remove troops in their territory, we agree (but won't)
We lose our supply of incense

turn 8 (930ad)

DoW Persia

ibt: lose a knight and horse and 2 explorers

turn 9 (940ad)

position troops to take Antioch next turn

ibt: Greece and Vikings signed alliance against us. We learn MT. Turn off research

turn 10 (950ad)

capture Antioch, losing 5 knights even with using cats first :( :mad: . Sell off improvements and abandon.
Upgrade several horse and knight to cavs

For Discussion: Since Persepolis has Leo's what do you think of keeping it and abandoning Leptis Magna or Theveste. Personally, I'd like to abandon Theveste as it doesn't contribute many shields and is slower to build troops than Leptis Magna

Rrau wrote:
For Discussion: Since Persepolis has Leo's what do you think of keeping it and abandoning Leptis Magna or Theveste. Personally, I'd like to abandon Theveste as it doesn't contribute many shields and is slower to build troops than Leptis Magna. End quote.
I think we need persepolis only for 1 turn: upgrade troops for cheap. We will collect money and do it at once and abandon Persipolis. I belive that we'll lose more money if we abandon our native City than gain from Leo effect. Another pity is fur, but again, I think to rebuild everything in Persipolis is too expensive. Better to have temporary peace with Persia at some stage. What do you think about my idea to have 20+ pop Cities? (Continue research, just for fun.) May be : "for fun" also : better to have Persipolis alive...

I'v plaeyd 5 turns and now have to make important decision What City we may left forever? I'd like to know team's oppinion.
Ivan

I don't understand your question. What do you mean?

Are you talking about abandonning one of our core cities?

If so, that's a very bad idea. The lost production and costs associated with rebuilding a functional core city far outweigh any advantages of any new cities. Since we are going for conquest, the game should be over before any new city is productive.

I looked at the save and while Persepolis doesn't have a lot of infrastructure left, it looks like it will be fairly productive (right now it has 2 usable shields out of 3). The main advantage is that it has Leo's, so if we want to turn research off and use the resource disconnection trick, I think it is worth it to abandon one of our core cities. If the team votes to keep Persepolis, I vote to abandon Theveste because it doesn't contribute a lot of shields due to many citizens working coast or sea tiles.

Persepolis have good strategical position. We will finish persian much faster if we keep Persepolis alive. Also we will have horses and fur. I don't know will it compensate production loses.

Here is the save. I'll submit turnlog soon.
Ivan

950AD Preturn: Military alliance with German vs Greek for WM 14gpt. Alliance with Babylonians: alliance vs Ottomans, alliance vs Greek, I receive incense and 23gold+10gpt, they receive spices, alliance with Celts vs Ottomans for alliance vs Vikings.
IBT Immortals attack and kill knight and horse near Suza.
960AD Unload knights near fur colony and bring 8 cavs near fur colony, sent 4 catapults home to upgrade.
IBT Immortals attack fur colony, lose. Attack and kill musketman.
970AD Unload cavs, send knights to attack Persepolis.
IBT Immortals capture fur colony. Build Parsagrade on fortress. Babylonians sign peace with Ottomans.
980AD At Persia attack Persepolis, one cav dies, four redlined, three wounded (2/4).
IBT Persia found Antioch near fortress and kill knight and cav near Persepolis.
990 AD Not enough troops to storm Persepolis. Unload one more cav at fortress.
IBT Barbs come near wool colonies. Persian bring more immortals to Pasargadae.
1000 AD For continuation of alliance vs Greeks demand all Babs money and sell spices for 6gpt. Finally take Persepolis. Decision, decision… Upgrade everything I can. Only 2 horses left. Actually I like Persepolis Not because of Leo (I used it almost), but because of it’s barracks and harbor. Troops will unload and heal much faster there. Sell improvements I Tennessee and abandon it. Persia wants peace but doesn’t offer anything substantial in exchange. Increase science to 80, banking in 5 turns.
IBT Persians attack cav near Persepolis, cav retreats.
1010 AD Destroy Antioch and load cavs and cannons and send caravels to Persia.
IBT Persians want to talk. They say “surrender? While our forces are poised to deliver the killing blow?”, Babs buy WM for 2gold and WM. Ottomans declare war with Germans. Greeks capture Frankfurt.
1020 AD Capture Arabella and use it as a virtual city to pass to Susa. Explorer pillages saltpeter. Unload Cavs in Persepolis, use them to destroy Susa. Unload canons near Tarus, new Persian capital. Science 100, banking in 2 turns. Sell WM to Kelts for 23+12gpt.
IBT Persians unload archer near Persepolis, find Susa again.
1030 AD Destroy Susa, destroy Tarus.
IBT Banking researched, change to Physics.
1040 AD Destroy Pasargadae, sign peace with Persia, demand Gordium and all their gold. Abandon Gordium, send caravel to bring workers to Gordium Island.
IBT Love queen day in some cities. Persian musketman runs away to Madras.
1050 AD Declare war with Persia again. Destroy Calcutta, send troops to Madras, kill musketman which ran away. Make alliance vs Ottomans for all their gold and 5gpt.
IBT Ottomans sign peace with Kelts. As a result we lose silks.
1060 AD Destroyed Madras. Renew alliance with Kelts vs Greeks for all their gold, silks, 1gpt and give them spices. Sell fur to Babs for all their 56gold and 2gpt. Nobody on the continent knows banking, astronomy and gunpowder except Persians. We should finish with Persians ASAP before they trade gunpowder. They have just four cities left, however we should concentrate troops at mountain near Delhi, the next player should attack next turn (1070 AD), we should move troops so that they don’t attack across a river. Sorry I played 11 turns again. Some troops can move, I didn’t finish my turn completely, some units can still move. Next player will decide. I hope our continental reputation will be clean. Do not break military alliances. Think about continental war. Regards, Ivan.

Just Remind AdrianE up.

I have it. I'll play Tuesday night my time.

Adrian

I've played

Brief notes:

Persia has been confined to the dustbin of history.
I dialed down research to save cash.
I disconnected our saltpeter and sold our iron to start building horses. I have workers postioned to found colonies on iron and saltpeter on the persian continent.
An invasion fleet is on the way to the other continent. I recommend attacking Greece and land on one of the hills between Knossus and Thermopolye

I have left some CAVs to farm the barbarians that keep springing up.

1060Ad adjustments, lower research

1070Ad Rush library in Persiopolis, position troops
IBT Barbs take out furs colony, Persiopolis riots, Ottomans declare war on Babylonians

1080AD Raze Delhi for no loss, lose CAV to spear at Karachi

1090AD Raze Karachi and Lahore

1100AD Destroy last Persian city, sell iron to babylon for incense and 9gpt

1110AD Pillage saltpeter, start building horses

1120AD Rush Cathedral in Persiopolis.

1130AD to 1160AD assemble fleet, heal cavs, dispatch invasion force. I notice Greece has been in anarchy so now would be a good time to hit them.

I think we need 5 or 6 more caravels (rush them in Periopolis) and 15 horses to upgrade to CAVs. We only have 18 cavalry now. We need many more.

AdrianE wrote: "sell iron to babylon for incense and 9gpt"
Did we lost our reputation?
Can we get smthing from Babs for alliance vs Ottomans?
DSsteve up.

We have lost our 1st level reputation. We can't buy anything for gpt. We can trade timed things (resources, luxuries) for timed things (gpt, resources, luxuries).

I have changed my mind: we only need about 2 to 3 more caravels.

We need a couple of defensive units to garrison our horse and fur colonies. We should also screen off parts of the Persian continent with workers. Watch out for barbarians though. They were starting to sping up.

We need 6 slave workers and 1 unit on our saltpeter. When necessary we disconnect the saltpeter, and build horsemen. When we want to upgrade units, use the 6 workers to build a road. Note that since we sold our iron we don't have to disconnect it. If we have iron then we would build knights not horsemen.

Unfortunately we will need to use this trick to build lots of horsemen. It effectively doubles our production. Our cities can build 2 turn horsemen or 4 turn cavalry.

Persiopolis will need a courthouse to really be effective.

Strategic options are:

Attack Greece first - they are the strongest and have the Great Wall
Attack Ottomans through Germany, then Greece

Attack someone else?

1) We have lost our 1st level reputation. We can't buy anything for gpt. We can trade timed things (resources, luxuries) for timed things (gpt, resources, luxuries).

2) I have changed my mind: we only need about 2 to 3 more caravels.

3) We need a couple of defensive units to garrison our horse and fur colonies. We should also screen off parts of the Persian continent with workers. Watch out for barbarians though. They were starting to sping up.

4) We need 6 slave workers and 1 unit on our saltpeter. When necessary we disconnect the saltpeter, and build horsemen. When we want to upgrade units, use the 6 workers to build a road. Note that since we sold our iron we don't have to disconnect it. If we have iron then we would build knights not horsemen.

5)Unfortunately we will need to use this trick to build lots of horsemen. It effectively doubles our production. Our cities can build 2 turn horsemen or 4 turn cavalry.

6) Persiopolis will need a courthouse to really be effective.

Strategic options are:

Attack Greece first - they are the strongest and have the Great Wall
Attack Ottomans through Germany, then Greece

Attack someone else?
1) I think that because of fur. Am I right? However, MA is next level of reputation, and better keep it.
2) Yes, I think that we have enough. May be we can upgrade them after Magnetism. We will losee Lighthouse 1 tile move however.
3) Another remedy is trade WM every turn. We will know barb Camps location in this case.
4) Good point. I think we may bring first wave of 12-15 cavs on 4-5 caravels, anoter will bring horsmans to Persepolis. When caravels will return we will upgrade and send the rest (21-24 Cavs). I think it will be enough.
5) We can do it once, IMHO.
6) We may build Caravel there each 2 turn (buy horse change to caravel).
Strategic options: Greek first, then peace, then Ottomans. Germany, Babilons, Kelts...

I've played my turns. I'll have to post a turnlog later but for now we've captured Athens.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Ivan_SG004_AD1255_01.SAV

Sorry for the delay:

1160AD: Nothing

IBT: Ottoman and German make peace

1170 Land Troops in Greece

1180 Capture Thermopylae (Sun Tzu's) flirt with idea of keeping it.... but no I destroy it. Sign ROP agreements with Kelts and Babylonians. Trade fur to kelts for 7gpt.

IBT: Kelts make peace with Greece

1190: Destroy Sparta

IBT: Germans found city on Persian Island... on top of horse colony

1200: Courthouse finished in Persepolis after progressive purchase
Destroy Knossos

1210: Move troops
1220: Destroy Mycenae

1230: Destroy Corinth

1240: Move Troops

1250: Move Troops

1255: Destroy Athens!

The greeks didn't offer enough for peace and we're set to take two more cities next turn (maybe 2 turns). I think we might want to leave them with a tiny port town and make peace so we can make some colonies... I'm starting to set up some troops to ship east of Carthage to take the small islands (don't forget we need to make peace with the vikings once). We should try to get one or two more luxuries so we can trigger some celebrations and reduce corruption and improve our overall score.

GO TEAM!!!

Rrau up.
Continental war goes slower than I thought. Therefore we have good chanses to discover Sanitation and have huge Cities (use Workers). Note, that Magnetism will cansel Lighthouse, so Please, bring Caravels to upgrade. Than go to ToG with 60-70% Sci. Build University in Persepolis, please.
Start war with Germany NOW. They use our Saltpeter! (It was bad idea to build road there). I think after Munich we can make peace with Greeks (Cansel alliance with Babs, demand and destroy some Cities) and go to war with Ottomans and Germans.

>>>THE SAVE<<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Ivan_SG004_AD1305_01.SAV)

Preflight (1255ad)

Dow Germany. Razed Hannover. Pillage Germany iron.

turn 1 (1260ad)

Capture then abandon Munich
Autorazed Bremen
Dispersed a barb camp

turn 2 (1265ad)

hunt some barbs and heal

ibt: vikings want peace, but won't give up a city

turn 3 (1270ad)

capture Delphi, generating a leader. Made army. Abandoned Delphi
Peace with Ottomans for WM, 30g as they have a stack of troops next to severely wounded cavs
Razed a german city on an island - can't recall the name

turn 4 (1275ad)

captured viking settler pair. Babylon has captured one of ottoman cities

turn 5 (1280ad)

moving troops

turn 6 (1285ad)

DoW Ottomans as they are sending out 3 settler pairs into the cleared area
captured and abandoned Pharsalos
Killed a stray Greek longbow and got another leader (unfortunately after I had abandoned Pharsalos)

turn 7 (1290ad)

failed to take Argos

turn 8 (1295ad)

captured Argos, attemped to make a second army, but can't (forgot that you need 4 cities to support each army). Abandoned Argos. Will ship leader to Persepolis.
Captured Uksudar, sold rax, abandoned
Make peace with Greece, taking their 2 remaining cities - leaving only their capitol, plus Printing press and Music Theory
Abandoned both new towns

turn 9 (1300ad)

not much except barb hunting

turn 10 (1305ad)

Capture and abandon Nuremburg

NOTES:

There's a keltoi settler encroaching upon our island

by Persepolis, there's 3 slaves that can road the saltpeter in 1 turn with a musket that can pillage the road

There's a leader heading toward Persepolis - may want to divert to main island to get Newton's in Carthage instead of Persepolis. ToG due in 2.

For as many towns as I razed, I don't feel that I made much progress.

Got file. I am not sure, that I manage to play before Tuesday night.
I'll let you know about progress tomorrow.
Ivan

I played 3 turns, took lot of time.
Will continue today and tomorrow.
Regards, Ivan

Here is the save. I think we may try to stay 80% Sci because of Barb farming. Actually it may take 10-12 turns to finish. We may just build Hospitals and plant workers to Cyties.
Don't forget DEMAND 1 tiles Keltic City before destroy them. I recomend bombard Iron and Saltpeter at the south with Fregate.
Will send turlog tomorrow.
Regards, Ivan.

1305 AD Changed LB to knight in Rome. Traded WM with Babylon for WM and 21gold, then with Kelts for WM and 26 gold. Vikings don’t want to surrender.
IBT Greeks want to trade WM. We don’t. German LB forces cavalry to retreat.
1310 AD Cav kills LB. 3 cavs prepare to attack Uppsala. I take 2 barb camps and attack a third. Captured Ottoman capital. Ottomans are destroyed. Good, they deserved it. Captured German settler, killed German pikeman. Sold barracks in Sogut and abandoned it. Built two colonies on dyes. Set science to 30 as Theory of Gravity is researched in one turn. After much thought decide to build Magellan’s Voyage instead of Newton’s University in Persepolis. Connected saltpeter and built a frigate in Persepolis. Considered attacking Babylon. Decided not to.
IBT Two Viking galloglasses unload near Rome. I forgot to disconnect saltpeter and all knights changed to cavs.
1315 AD Killed the galloglasses. Rushed Magellan’s with a leader. Sunk German caravel. Science to 60, medicine in 12 turns. Razed Uppsala. Surround Keltic settler as he is trying to use our fur colony. Destroyed Konigsberg. Lost elite cav to German LB, got another GL. Captured another barb camp. Killed more barbs. Move troops to Hamburg.
IBT Furious Kelts cancel RoP. Furious Babylonians cancel RoP. Magellan’s Expedition completed in Persepolis.
1320 AD Capture Hamburg , pillage Saltpeter. Destroy Heidelberg. Trade WM to locate barb camps. Capture 2 (+50g). Decided to make false peace with Germans (demand Leipzig) to destroy Berlin next turn. Abonded Hamburg.
IBT. Declare war to Germans. Babilons want to talk: MA vs Greeks. Forget it…
1325 AD Try to Capture Berlin. Drawback of Leipzig demand is that all units from Leipzig have been transferred to Berlin automatically. Had not enough Cavs. Better next turn. Send GL to Rome for Newton Uni. Unload 4 Cavs to attack Oslo.
IBT German LB attack Cav from Berlin and die.
1330 AD. Raze Berlin. Build Colonies. Raze Oslo. Make Peace with Vikings for WM all their Gold+15gpt. Made embassy with Vikings. There are only spears in City. Now we can trade with Babilonians. Declare War to Kelts. Make MA with Babs vs Kelts + Incenses for Music Theory, and all our Lux. They have no Iron and Saltpeter, and have no money for gpt. Vikings agree to fight vs Kelts for WM and Species. Decided to connect Ashur with continental road system, via Ur; we will get Lux from former Germany, Greece then. Kill Kelts’ Knight+settler and Capture City at our mainland.
IBT Kelts send 2 Pickmens out of small City Veramilanium. Babilonians Ask yo remove workers. (I agree, but…)
1335 AD. Babs connect Saltpeter. I’ll attack them next turn. Concentrate troops near border. Capture barb Camp(s). Send Galleon with 4 Cavs from mainland to Kelts . Sell Navigation to Viking for 36+44gpt (they offer 42gpt initially). Sci 80%.
IBT Kelts go to Gems Colony. Barbs attack empty Galleon.
1340 AD Connect Ashur. Move troops to Asshur. 2 Frigates hunter and kill Caravell.
Elite Cav and Army did not capture small City Veramilanium. Rush Newton in Rome, it has more plain gpt then Cartage. Sci 100%.
IBT Babs ask to remove troops and I declare war. Barbs destroy 1 dice colony.
1345 AD Destroy small City Veramilanium. Raze Ashur. Move troops to attack Babilon and ninivech next turn. WLKD everywhere. Kill Bab’s Musk+Setter. Sci 80%. Med 3 turns.
IBT Viking ask remove troops and reject RoP because of Babs.
1350 AD Capture Babilon and Niniveh. Sell improvements and Abonded. Destroy Ur. Kill 2 trespassing kelt Pickmen. Bombard and kill Babs musk. Attack Monach. Lost Cav. 3/5 musk left.
1355 AD Destroy Monach. Pool more Cavs to Babs Cities. Make RoP with Viking for Spices. Destroy Monach. Build colony.
That’s it…
Sorry for long delay. I hope it was my last set of turns in this game. I recomend prebuild Hospitals (Use Military Academy, Palace, Epic, JSB, but, i thing it will change scope very little. ) Enjoy.
Regards, Ivan.

got it

Adrian

We are alone.

1360AD destroy 1 babylonian city
demolish Celtic stack
IBT Babylonians beg for peace
Vikings send out settler pair from UR

1365AD block viking settler
destroy the Babylonians

1370Ad destroy 1 celt city

1375AD and 1380AD maneuver forces, hunt barbs

1385AD take Entremont, sign peace with Celts for 1 tile island city and 100G, move more troops into celtic territory and Greek territory
IBT both Celts and Greeks demand we leave, I refuse and we have war

Push lux slider up

1390AD Move troops into Viking territory
destroy greece, take Richmond

IBT vikings demand we leave and I refuse so we have war

1395AD Raze Ur, Oslo and Bjorvin
Have terrible RNG luck at last Celtic city and fail to take it

1400AD raze last viking city, send reinforcements south

1405AD destroy keltoi

Conquest Victory with 3283 firaxis points

I uploaded two 1405 saves. The first is before the final turn and the second is after all movement. Press the space bar to see the victory screen

Congratulation, team. I think all team members play solid Emperor level. Probably if we (I) concentrate on Conquest from the very begining we could win faster. However, I like the style we played and enjoy the game. Thanks everybody.
Regards, Ivan.
Who would like to write spoiler 2?

good game, enjoyed playing with you all. But, I will go to PTW version for sgotm5 as I want to do the variant and be able to use the move stack buttons.

Congratulations team. I had a great time. I unfortunately won't have time to play SGOTM5.

good game, enjoyed playing with you all. But, I will go to PTW version for sgotm5 as I want to do the variant and be able to use the move stack buttons.
[/lurk]Move stack works fine on my 1.29 vanilla setup. Select a unit in the stack, of the type you want to move, then hit J and click on the destination. It won't move all units in a combined arms stack, you have to stack-move each unit type separately, but I don't think I'd want that anyway.
[lurk]

Who would like to write spoiler 2?
If nobody, I can do it...
Ivan

I noticed it says your game is incomplete on the submission list. I'm guessing you submitted the save the turn before victory rather than the turn following victory?

Yes guys. TimBentley is right. This is just like GOTM, and you must upload the save after victory. Sorry and all that.

Congratulations on your win. Well played. :thumbsup:

Of course the victory save is required! How else could the upload checking software know that you are about to win on your next turn, and with what condition? It would have to play the turn for you :hmm: Of course you can always choose to submit an incomplete save as a Conquest Loss :mischief:

I downloaded AdrianE's save from 1405ad (the one right before pressing enter), pressed enter and uploaded the 1410ad save.