Here is the save.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/jeffelammar_SG004_AD0860_01.sav

I may not get my turn log up this evening, but here is the short version.

We started our golden age, had a few elite victories, razed 2 cities, and got 4 Roman workers.

Greece declared on us after I refused to give them literature, but I haven't seen any Greek units.

We learned astronomy on schedule and will build Copernicus' Observatory in 3 turns.

I couldn't figure out how to build an outpost, so I didn't build any.

I think we need to learn banking before music theory, so that our cities have things to build. Otherwise we are going to be building wealth. We can easily get banking and music theory before running into problems with Utica. We are currently set to Music Theory, but we have no time invested. We should switch.

The Greeks will give us peace & invention for monotheism & 200 g. I think we should trade and get LM started on Leonardo's workshop, which we can probably get. Persia will also trade invention, but they want theology. They'll give us 25 gpt & all their gold for the trade.

There is a small possibility that their is a sea route to the other civs east of Sabratha; the caravel should check it out immediately. The galley needs to go to Theveste to upgrade.

Score= 510, Culture=2540, +42cpt.

Go ahead and make the Greek trade if you like. Getting invention will help us when we come to research the bottom half of the tree. Hopefully we can trade for gunpowder by this point as well. It's just critical that we don't give anybody Theology onwards until we've built all the wonders we want to. They're all going to have to research for themselves for a while. Also, if you can get a good gpt deal on Monotheism with anyone else (Babylonians, Indians) go for it.

Looking good anyway CKS. Agree with research - Banking then Music Theory.

I suggest following with Navigation (for the ocean trades?) - Democracy - Free Artistry - Physics - ToG. Someone is likely to get Printing Press soon, we can probably trade for this. We could miss out Navigation for a bit if you like, i'm just eager to pull in the luxuries!

Also, now civs have started researching Literature (finally), perhaps we should consider starting to trade it around for decent deals.

But most importantly, jeff gets the pleasure of cutting the ribbon at Copernicus' observatory!!! [dance]

... assuming conehead doesn't show in the next few hours...

Good Job CKS.
I think I can get my turns in tonight. I have a late hockey game, but if I get home from work at a reasonable hour, I'll be able to play before the game. Otherwise, I'll play tomorrow definately.

Comments below.


Greece declared on us after I refused to give them literature, but I haven't seen any Greek units.

Don't think we will. There doesn't seem to be any safe passage (unless the outside chance you mention later).

The balance of power on that continent is very interesting. We should give some serious thought to how we want to manage it.
The Greeks seem to be strongest right now.
The Ottomans are tough and may rampage when they get Military Tradition.
The Babylonians are weak, and may soon become prey for the others. We may want to mount an expedition against Persia. Then gift Babylon any cities that we take. That way they would continue to exist even after they lose their homeland. (Long shot, but let's consider it)


We learned astronomy on schedule and will build Copernicus' Observatory in 3 turns.

Yeah, I get to build a wonder :bounce:


I think we need to learn banking before music theory, so that our cities have things to build. Otherwise we are going to be building wealth. We can easily get banking and music theory before running into problems with Utica. We are currently set to Music Theory, but we have no time invested. We should switch.

Sounds reasonable. What are the current research times for them. Our Palace pre-build only holds 300 shields, so we need to make sure that we get Music Theory before Utica reaches 300 shields. If we can do that (remembering that our GA ends during the Music Theory research), then banking sounds great. We need it anyway on our quest for Free Artistry.


The Greeks will give us peace & invention for monotheism & 200 g. I think we should trade and get LM started on Leonardo's workshop, which we can probably get. Persia will also trade invention, but they want theology. They'll give us 25 gpt & all their gold for the trade.
This is tough. It would be nice if we could get the AI to research Printing Press for us, but it also hastens their contacts. I think that the trade with Greece is the way to go. We should definately keep track of what is going on tech wise. If we see anyone get Theology, we should think about trading it to everyone for as much GPT as possible. We want them researching slow, but we don't want someone else to act as Tech Broker.

I'm curious to see what kind of research boost Copernicus gives us. It should be significant. (double up on 1/5 of our cities)

We can get banking in 5 without running a deficit, and then music theory in 4, even without taking the observatory into consideration. If we research at this rate, we'll do it all during our golden age. We don't have to worry about running into problems with our prebuild, as this will take us only 6 turns past the observatory, and the palace is 9 turns.

I also am in favor of navigation soon, as I suspect that we'll need to trade across oceans. Plus, Magellan's Voyage is a better prebuild than our palace. I don't think that we are going to get much help on the lower part of the tree, so I think we'll be researching at least from chemistry on. If we have to wait on TOG, we can pick up Magellan's, too. We will want to get to economics sometime, but that can wait.

I think a lot of the civs haven't met yet. I don't think that literature is going to be traded around much until they get both printing press and astronomy. For this reason, I'm not really interested in trading lit to them. I think we should hold off until we have clear evidence that they are (or could be) trading amongst themselves, which means we need printing press. I think we should trade luxuries, but do as little trading of techs as possible. In fact, the only reason to trade for invention is to let Leptis Minor take out the Sun Tzu's/Leonardo's wonder cascade, but we might just ignore it and kill the cascade by building the other wonders ahead of them. It will be a long time before they get to anything else. We'd then need to research up the lower path ourselves, but Utica can build Shakespeare's Theater, Magellan's Voyage, and Smith's Trading Company while we do it. At 4 turns per tech it won't take too long. I haven't counted up research time and build time yet, but I think it is a possibility to consider.

We can get banking in 5 without running a deficit, and then music theory in 4, even without taking the observatory into consideration. If we research at this rate, we'll do it all during our golden age. We don't have to worry about running into problems with our prebuild, as this will take us only 6 turns past the observatory, and the palace is 9 turns.

Excellent. Banking it is :)

I like the idea of trading Monotheism to Greece, but not trading anything else until we have more wonders.
Once we get navigation, we may want to build two more Ivory colonies. In addition to ChunkyMonkey's desire to import luxuries, this would also allow us to buy techs with luxes instead of having to trade techs for them.

Okay, here is my turn log.

Turn 0, 760 AD Lowered research spending 10%, declared war on the Romans, captured the two foreign workers.

IBT Greeks demand literature, I refuse, they declare war. Learn Education, start Astronomy. Use the big picture and switch Utica to university and rush it, switch Theveste and Sabratha to university. Leptis Minor starts a worker to go join Sabratha.

Turn 1, 770 AD Vet NM beats reg archer and starts our golden age. MM Utica for 0 net food, 35 net shields. Palace is due in 9 turns, set research to 60% to get astronomy in 8. It takes 3 vet horses and a vet sword to kill 2 regular archers, but nobody dies. I can't figure out how to build an outpost - there is no button and no keyboard shortcut in my manual. I do build a colony on the last ivory.

Turn 2, 780 AD Carthage starts university, elite archer kills reg. archer, vet sword kills reg. archer.

Turn 3, 790 AD Vet MI kills spearman in Byzantium. I raze the city, and we get to workers from a settler in the city. Vet MI kills archer, promotes. Add worker to Sabratha, MM it for food, university in 1.

IBT Sabratha starts courthouse. Romans build Brundisium SW of our sheep.

Turn 4, 800 AD Vet MI attacks Brundisium and wins. It autorazes and the galley there sinks. MM LM for cash, Theveste and Sabratha for food.

IBT Persians start Leo's. (I think the Greeks started it after turn 1.)

Turn 5, 810 AD Nothing much. Workers are roading all our tiles.

IBT LM starts granary, Theveste starts galley

Turn 6, 820 AD Nothing much.

IBT Caesar offers peace. Sabratha starts barracks.

Turn 7, 830 AD Nothing much. Move some troops around.

IBT Theveste starts granary, LM starts horseman

Turn 8, 840 AD Same things.

IBT LM starts NM, Sabratha starts galley, Carthage starts catapult

Turn 9, 850 AD Elite archer kills regular archer

IBT Archer retreats horse. Learn Astronomy, start Music Theory. Use big picture to switch Utica to Copernicus's Observatory. Carthage and LM start MI for lack of anything useful to build. Maybe they should build wealth.

Turn 10, 860 AD Vet sword kills archer.

The Romans still can't field any kind of an army at all. I'm not sure it is worth it to stay at war with them for 2-3 elite attacks every 10 turns. On the other hand, war weariness won't be a problem as they can't attack us. We didn't lose a single unit. Although our horses lost every battle against fresh troops, they always managed to retreat.

The balance of power on that continent is very interesting. We should give some serious thought to how we want to manage it.
The Greeks seem to be strongest right now.
The Ottomans are tough and may rampage when they get Military Tradition.
The Babylonians are weak, and may soon become prey for the others. We may want to mount an expedition against Persia. Then gift Babylon any cities that we take. That way they would continue to exist even after they lose their homeland. (Long shot, but let's consider it)


Do we want the babylonians to continue to exist? They are scientific, so we might want them out of the game, to keep their free techs from continuing to advance the spread of knowledge. I think we'd be better off if they'd reduce themselves to just one civ on that continent.

I think we should consider a Persian expedition for leader fishing purposes, as Rome isn't doing a good job of providing cannon fodder. I think we should raze any cities we conquer, though, instead of giving them to the Babylonians. We might alternate war with Persia and war with India, letting each civ rebuild while we attack the other.

On an unrelated note, we have built colonies on all the available ivory.

Do we want the babylonians to continue to exist? They are scientific, so we might want them out of the game, to keep their free techs from continuing to advance the spread of knowledge. I think we'd be better off if they'd reduce themselves to just one civ on that continent.

I don't think Babylon will be doing enough research to make any impact on the tech race. They are going to fall behind quickly now, so by the time they get a free tech, the rest of the AIs will already be past that tech.

I really am not completely sold on the give cities to Babylon, but I did think it worth discussing.

EDIT: I just thought of a really good reason not to. It sure looks like the two other continents won't have contact till Navigation or Magnetism, so we probably don't want to give Babylon free contact to trade. We still might consider this after the AIs get ocean travel, but not till then.


On an unrelated note, we have built colonies on all the available ivory.
Oops sorry. That's what I get for trying to make suggestions without taking a detailed look at the save. Good Job.

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/jeffelammar_SG004_AD0960_01.SAV)

Sorry to say it, but looks like we are breaking two streaks.
1. I built a Wonder (No surprise)
2. I don't think the next player gets to build one, but it'll be close :(

The next player won't get JS Bach unless we get a leader, but LM might finish Leo's.

Without further ado...

Turn 0 - Preflight
As discussed, I called up Greece. The price tag was higher than discussed, but I traded Monotheism and 273 gold for Invention.
I also made a trade with Babylon for 21 gold + 8 gpt for Monotheism. It was worth more, but I figured it was better to get something than to have an AI get it.
Switch research to Banking at 3.7.0 (5 turns)

IBT: Xerces renegotiate fur trade. Trade wool for fur + 47 Gold.
Persia lands settler pair. Too bad we're at peace :satan:
Theveste builds Granary -> Courthouse (as bank pre)
Sabratha builds Caravel -> Colosseum (also bank pre)

Turn 1 - 870 AD
Switch Carthage to Palace as a prebuild for Bank
Upgrade Galley to Caravel in Theveste.
Start exploring with new Caravel
1 Elite Victory.

IBT: Nothing, but after this most people have Literature. Guess We could have traded without too much of a hit.

Turn 2 - 880 AD
Discover that we are 1 square from a sea passage to the east. Guess Navigation will be needed.
1 Elite Victory

IBT: Utica builds Copernicus's Observatory -> Market

Turn 3 - 890 AD
Not Much at all

IBT: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Turn 4 - 900 AD
Taxes up ( +125 gold but still get banking in 1)
1 Elite Win

IBT: Apologize to Ragnar for Caravel incursion
Discover Banking: Switch all but Utica to Bank. Switch Utica to Palace.

Turn 5 - 910 AD
1 Elite win.

IBT: Carthage builds Bank -> Horseman (Carthage borders expand)
Persia learns Gunpowder.

Turn 6 - 920 AD
Elite MI accidently takes Neopolis. I thought there were two defenders and wanted another elite win. I keep the city. Make immediate peace with Rome and gift Neopolis back to them.

IBT: Persia wants to continue horse agreement. We don't need it now, and besides if we want horses, we should trade with India instead.
Carthage builds Horseman start on Medeval Infantry
Sabratha builds Bank -> Colosseum

Turn 7 - 930 AD
Not much Caravels explore

IBT: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Turn 8 - 940 AD
MM Theveste for commerce. Still get bank in 1.
Reduce Taxes for research.

IBT: Discover Music Theory start on Navigation
Carthage builds MI switch to Palace (Perhaps not right, but otherwise it was wealth)

Turn 9 - 950 AD
Taxes to 3.7.0
Keep exploring.

IBT: zzzzzzzzzzz

Turn 10 - 960 AD
Move around a bit.

Utica Culture: 3036 (+54 per turn) - Civ Assist estimated finish 1968.

There really wasn't too much to do. I kept an eye on the techs of the AI, but other than Persia learning Gunpowder nothing interesting happened. After we get navigation and someone on the other continent gets Gunpowder, we should be able to trade 2 or 3 luxes for it instead of having to trade tech.

Carthage is building the palace. I thought we might want to use it for something, but it really depends on our research path after Navigation. If there won't be anything for Carthage to build, we should switch it to wealth.

I saw something really strange. For some reason it looked like Babylon didn't get their free tech. :confused:
Open up the 760 Save and enter trading with them. They show as Scientific in the civilopedia, but just take a look and tell me if I'm smoking something.

Since we are in pure wonder building mode, I say we follow ChunkyMonkey's research path. Navigation -> Democracy -> Free Artistry (unless we need to research Printing Press ourselves, a distinct possibility given the current tech pace) Any way even if we have to, we will have Magellans as a prebuild, so it shouldn't kill us.
Once Printing Press is discovered, do not trade persia, rome or india contact to the other land-mass. They may not meet till Navigation/Magnetism, allowing us lots of juicy wonders :bounce:

EDIT: Two more notes
1. Units. I have a bunch of units in LM right now. They can move, I just didn't know where they would move to.
2. Worker: I have a worker on the western edge mountains I figured he could try to build an outpost, but I didn't get to enter the command. Every document I have seen says the command is "ctrl-O". Give it a shot. If not do with the slave as you will.

Babylon is modded to be not scientific.
I tried to hint everybody towards this in the maintenance thread a long time ago:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2225529&postcount=54

Nice job, jeff. Congratulations on your wonder.:)

I was thinking about our situation. We have a lot of turns to go in the game, there are only three of us now, and its the middle of November. We are having a lot of turns where there isn't much to do: research, build our new stuff, and kill a few enemy units every now and then. How would you guys feel about playing 20 turns instead of 10? We're planning that far in advance anyway.

This would ensure that chunkymonkey gets to build a wonder and continue our streak. ;)

lurker's comment:
Babylon is modded to be not scientific.
I tried to hint everybody towards this in the maintenance thread a long time ago:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showp...29&postcount=54
Oops, must have missed your post Klarius but thanks for letting us know, I knew something was a bit off.

Good job with the turns jeff, I'll play within the next 24 hours.

I was thinking about our situation. We have a lot of turns to go in the game, there are only three of us now, and its the middle of November. We are having a lot of turns where there isn't much to do: research, build our new stuff, and kill a few enemy units every now and then. How would you guys feel about playing 20 turns instead of 10? We're planning that far in advance anyway.
Spooky. I had this thought today whilst daydreaming in my lectures, although to be fair I figured we could start the twenty turn thing after we'd finished all the middle age wonders. However, I'm perfectly happy to start it now. This game is basically won, it just needs to be carried through to its conclusion. All we really need to agree on pre-play is our long-term research path and possible declarations of war. All three of us know what our strategic aim is, so there's no problem there.

If anybody has any suggestions on anything else, let me know before tomorrow.

Babylon is modded to be not scientific.
I tried to hint everybody towards this in the maintenance thread a long time ago:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2225529&postcount=54

Well, that would have been useful knowledge. Oh well. I must have read your post, but I guess it didn't sink in. Nothing like reality to make you realize something.

As for going to 20 turns: I guess great minds think alike, since I too had been thinking about it.
I have no problem with going to 20 turns. Lots can change in 20 turns though. I would suggest that we go to 10 turns + up to 10 more.


This game is basically won, it just needs to be carried through to its conclusion.

Victory may be assured, but we have a lot of work to reduce the time to get that victory. I have the feeling that keeping pace technologically will be interesting once we hit the industrial age.

Suggestions for the next set of turns.
Chivalry vrs Military Tradition
I'm torn on if we even want Chivalry. If we want to attack Persia soon, then we might want Chivalry. I know we don't intend to research these soon, but we need to decide if it is worth it to trade for Chivalry at all. MT has the advantage that it provides us a culture build, so unless we are ready to attack Persia, I say don't waste resources getting Chivalry.

Balance of Power
My personal rankings of the AIs in terms of danger
Top Tier Opponents
Really these top 3 are really close. They are all scientific, and as such are very dangerous.
Ottomans: Currently behind Greece and Persia, but MT will probably cause them to take out at least one rival.
Persia: The most advanced. They are close to unassailable unless we take action. I don't think India can beat them.
Greece: Tops in territory at the moment, but they are next to the Ottomans, and if the two of them fight, it could be very interesting (we might even want to precipitate this soon)

Middle Tier Opponents
These are in OK shape, but not quite in the top tier. They are at a severe disadvantage to the top tier.
India: We need to make sure these guys survive. If Persia starts to get the upper hand in a war, we are in big trouble.
Germany: Keeping pace, but I don't know how long that can last
Celts: They have an island, so probably can survive, but they don't look like they will compete.
Vikings: Also behind. They might make a run of it when they get Invention and their UU. We should keep them away from the ocean travel techs so we don't have to worry about Berserkers.

Lower Tier Opponents
Rome: We can do whatever we want with them any time. Even if they aren't good for leader farming they do take up territory.
Babylon: While they are currently on pace technologically, I look at what they have and am certain that they will soon be slaughtered by one of their neighbors.

We need to be careful not to increase the power of the top tiers. When we want to trade, concentrate on trades from the middle and lower tier. We shouldn't strengthen the top tier in any way.

Wonders
This is going to get interesting. I agree that we can probably snag at least one of Adam Smith and Magellan.
I would suggest getting Shakespere's first, then going after one of the other two. We could try to get Adam's in LM and Magellan in Utica or we could gamble and try to get both in Utica while we research the bottom part of the tech tree. I would expect that we can get Shakespere -> Magellan -> Newton, but it gets sketchy if we try for Adam's in Utica as well.

I would suggest that we go to 10 turns + up to 10 more.

This sounds fine to me. We always want to remember that we can stop and consult if something comes up.

On Chivalry: I don't think we want to trade for it. If we have a lux deal and can get it cheap without giving much away, then we might as well, but not otherwise. I'm not keen on an all-out invasion of Persia at this time, despite my words about alternating war with Persia and India.

On Wonders: I think first Shakespeare's, then Magellan's, then Newton's. If no one else is near, we can pick up Smith's in Utica. Otherwise, let LM build it. If we can build Newton's before Magellan's, we should. I think we can get both in Utica, though, and LM can't build Magellan's.

This sounds fine to me. We always want to remember that we can stop and consult if something comes up.
What he said. That is all I meant by my suggestion.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/jeffelammar_SG004_AD1170_01.SAV

Turnlog 960AD-1170AD

I played 21 turns so that I could finish Democracy and work out how long Free Artistry would take. Hope nobody minds.

0 - 960AD - Starve Utica slightly so it will reach Bach's in 10. Switch Carthage to Wealth.
IBT - Sabratha builds Colosseum - Start Caravel.
1 - 970AD - Nothing happens really.
IBT - Our Golden Age ends.
2 - 980AD - Nothing.
IBT - Theveste builds Courthouse - Wealth. Sabratha builds Caravel - Wealth.
3 - 990AD - Start planting forest near Sabratha to maximise output.
IBT - Persia lands musket and settler on west coast.
4 - 1000AD - Pen in Persian nomads. For some reason, Persia is now extremely polite. Start planting forest in Carthage to maximise output.
IBT - Persia settles on the spot. Learn Navigation. Start Economics.
5 - 1010AD - Trades
Ottomans : Trade Ivory+Wool+1g for Dye and Gems. They are now Gracious towards us.
Indians : Spice for Horses,World Map+4g.
Greece : Wool+Spice for Incense+TerritoryMap+4gpt+13g. They are now Polite.
Persia : Ivory for 10gpt,17g,and Ter map.

Set lux to 0%. all cities are 100% happy, except Utica which does not yet have a market.
IBT -
6 - 1020AD - Nothing.
IBT -
7 - 1030AD - Nothing.
IBT - Leptis Minor builds Leonardo's Workshop. Hahaha, in your face, world! Starts building Bank.
8 - 1040AD - Buy Ottoman TMap for 21g. Buy Babylonian TMap for 6g. Buy Celtic TMap for 17g. Buy Viking TMap for 8g. Buy German TMap for 12g.
IBT -
9 - 1050AD - Nothing.
IBT - Learn Economics. Printing Press in 4. Civs have started Learning Theology.
10 - 1060AD - Nothing.
IBT - Renogiate Persian Trade. Wool for Furs+1gpt+4g.
11 - 1070AD - Nothing
IBT - The Ottomans offer Gunpowder for Theology+580g. I decline.
12 - 1080AD - Funny thing. I look at Mapstat, and it says we own the most territory!
IBT - Persians land next to our ivory. Alexander demands Education. We decline.
13 - 1090AD - Everyone's started learning Theology, so I trade it to the Germans along with some wool in order to get Gunpowder. yay! there is some Saltpere near Utica. Change cities producing wealth to muskets.
IBT - Celts demand Monotheism. we decline. persians settle next to ivory. Learn Printing Press, start Democracy. Leptis Minor builds Bank. Start musket.
14 - 1100AD - Almost everybody knows each other, which is odd.
IBT - Complete Bach's Cathedral :) , start Magellan as pre-build.
15 - 1110AD - Nothing.
IBT - Carthage builds musket - musket. Sabratha builds musket - musket.
16 - 1120AD - Trade Spice to Ottomans for 8gpt and 64g
IBT - Leptis Minor builds musket - musket. theveste builds musket - musket.
17 - 1130AD - Not much. I see a trend developing. :rolleyes:
IBT -
18 - 1140AD - Trade Invention (known by pretty much everybody) to India for Chivalry
IBT - Leptis Minor builds musket - musket. Sabratha builds musket - wealth. Carthage builds musket - wealth.
19 - 1150AD - Nothing.
IBT -
20 - 1160AD - Nothing.
IBT - Learn Democracy, start Free Artistry. LM builds musket. theveste builds musket -wealth.
21 - 1170AD - Nothing again.

We will net Free Artistry in 5 turns. Shakespears Theatre should be built in 22. After Free Artistry, straight to Newton's I guess. Persia already has Chemistry BTW, but they are down Music Theory, Banking and Astronomy. Everyone else is even more behind. Once we get a chance to renogotiate deals in 4 turns, perhaps we should try to get horses so we can build and upgrade to knights. LM is available to build Smith's, but I didn't know whether or not we were going to try and get it with Utica so I left LM producing wealth. Can't think of anyhthing else to say. Except I'm glad we started this 20 (21) turn thing, cos only 10 turns would have been pretty dull.

Oh, and we are due to win before 1952. :thumbsup: Assuming we manage to build Shakespeare's on time, we'll be down to 1922.

Things sound good, chunkymonkey. I won't have a chance to look at the save until tomorrow, but it sounds like we are in good shape. I do find it amusing that we are tops in land, with our 5 cities.

I think we need to kick the Persians off our island, especially since they are up near our ivory. Our trades will expire about 10 turns in, and I think we should not renew them. Since we have chivalry, we should take some knights and clear our space. Then we might send a few bold souls over to their continent, to delay their progress and to gather elite wins. It looks like we already are trading for horses with the Indians, so we can build some more knights during the first 10 turns. It is good that we have saltpeter of our own, for muskets and cavalry to come.

I think that LM should go ahead and build Smith's. Utica can build Newton's and Magellan's. LM can't build Magellan's, and Smith's would be nice to have. It isn't a huge financial savings, but it'll be nice.

I don't think we should trade for Chemistry from Persia. If we can get it from someone else, maybe. We aren't in a big rush now, because Utica can't keep up with the wonders. Once we get in the industrial age, life may be different. If we can get to steam power soon, though, the possibility of railroads in Utica could help.

As we go into the industrial age, we will need to be building small wonders in Utica, so we should make sure to get the appropriate prerequisites: 5 hospitals, 5 stock markets, military tradition, and espionage. We'll need to rush the hospital and stock market in Utica as they become available to build; since Utica doesn't yet have a market or a bank, we'll need to rush those, too, after we get Newton's University.

Sorry, It's been a very busy (fun, but busy) 24 hours. I'll try to look at the save and make comments tomorrow morning.

From the turn log, things look great. I have absolutely no problem with you going for the extra turn.

I agree that LM or Carthage should go ahead and build Smiths. 600 Shields is more production than I think we want to commit Utica to for a relatively low shield output.

As for Persia, I agree. Let the trades expire, then vote them off our island. :)

I think we need to kick the Persians off our island, especially since they are up near our ivory. Our trades will expire about 10 turns in, and I think we should not renew them. Since we have chivalry, we should take some knights and clear our space. Then we might send a few bold souls over to their continent, to delay their progress and to gather elite wins.
Agree, however, I don't think we should get too hung up on the elite wins anymore. I've done some analysis, shown below, which shows that each wonder we build isn't actually shaving a lot of turns off of our win date.

It looks like we already are trading for horses with the Indians, so we can build some more knights during the first 10 turns. It is good that we have saltpeter of our own, for muskets and cavalry to come.
I've just looked at the save again, and bizzarely, I don't think I ever initiated the trade with India, but wrote it down anyway. I must have figured we could do with 20 turns of horses a bit later once we actually had a use for them or something. Ottomans and Persia are willing to trade horses but they won't trade gpt deals, perhaps our rep is shot for some reason. :mischief: Otto will trade horses for 212g, although I would be tempted to wait until the lux deals expire, to see if we can throw a lux in, to reduce the non-refundable deposit we have to pay, you know, just in case Otto declares.


I think that LM should go ahead and build Smith's. Utica can build Newton's and Magellan's. LM can't build Magellan's, and Smith's would be nice to have. It isn't a huge financial savings, but it'll be nice.
Agree. If only to deny Persia the pleasure. :D


I don't think we should trade for Chemistry from Persia. If we can get it from someone else, maybe. We aren't in a big rush now, because Utica can't keep up with the wonders. Once we get in the industrial age, life may be different. If we can get to steam power soon, though, the possibility of railroads in Utica could help.
Exactly, remember we're still trying to keep the tech pace down. We probably won't ever see the Space Race ( i predict we have about 180 turns until victory), but there's no point jumping ahead of ourselves.


As we go into the industrial age, we will need to be building small wonders in Utica, so we should make sure to get the appropriate prerequisites: 5 hospitals, 5 stock markets, military tradition, and espionage. We'll need to rush the hospital and stock market in Utica as they become available to build; since Utica doesn't yet have a market or a bank, we'll need to rush those, too, after we get Newton's University.
I've been playing with the 20K calculator and this is what I can see:

Current win date : 1952

Building Shakespeare's on time (1315) -> Win date : 1922 (Reduction of 15 turns)

Then Building Newton's on time (1410) -> Win Date : 1902 (Reduction of 10 turns)

Then Building Magellan's (1505) -> Win Date : 1896 (Reduction of 3 turns)

After this, every wonder/small wonder we build will reduce the win date by 3/2 turns respectively - and this tends towards a 2/1 turn reduction as we get further into the industrial ages. The way I see it, Wall street, ToE, ans UniSuff are the only worthwhile investments. I think its important we railroad and get a hospital in each of our cities for a few extra base points, but after that i think its just riding the wave. Obviously if we do get as far as the Modern Ages we'll want to pick up the UN, but that won't be a problem at all. I'm glad our win date will be in the 19th century though!

By the way CKS, if you're feeling left out of the wonder parade, why not take 22 turns this time to see Shakespeare's come in. Then Jeff can have Newton's. :)

Agree, however, I don't think we should get too hung up on the elite wins anymore. I've done some analysis, shown below, which shows that each wonder we build isn't actually shaving a lot of turns off of our win date.

But getting Leaders is fun. :)
We are still short the Heroic Epic, and at 4cpt, that would still shave a noticeable amout off the race.

I agree, no reason to trade for Chemistry. We have about 32 turns till we need to have ToG anyway. We can research Chemistry -> Physics -> ToG ourselves in that time (can't we?)

I think that we might want to delay Newton 2 turns and rush the Market and Bank in Utica before doing Newton. This would give us a sizable income boost.


I agree that LM or Carthage should go ahead and build Smiths. 600 Shields is more production than I think we want to commit Utica to for a relatively low shield output.
I must have been really tired last night, that should have read "...relatively low culture output"


EDIT: Anyone know why we can't get give gpt. I didn't think we had broken any agreements. *shrug*

I think its important we railroad and get a hospital in each of our cities for a few extra base points, but after that i think its just riding the wave
I agree. Additionally, as soon as we can swing it Utica needs a Factory and Coal Plant. Then we can upgrade to a Hydro once we get Electronics.

When we start researching Medicine we should also have the other 4 cities start building Workers as soon when they are at max food at pop 12. That way we will have the workers to add to Utica as soon as we get Sanitation.

These are good points.

I think we might as well take whatever elite wins we can on our continent; heroic epic would be nice, and a leader to rush a wonder would be icing on the cake, even now. I'm perfectly happy to ride things out, though, rather than invading any other continents.

I don't remember any broken deals. We could end up with one because somebody else loses a harbor (or the use of one), and if it happened around the end of the trade deal, we might not notice.

I'll try and play this evening, but it might be tomorrow before I can.

Just a quick note. I was looking at the SGOTM 5 signup thread, and I would like to go for it. If you guys are interested, then I would be happy to sign up with you guys again. Otherwise, I'll just drop my name in the bucket.

I for one would like to play the variant. Might be a nice change of pace to go war-monger. :)

Here is the save.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/jeffelammar_SG004_AD1310_01.sav

Well, my turns were a little more interesting than I expected.

Turn 0 Switched LM to Smith's. Checked on trading: Ottoman's will trade horses for gpt, once the slider is set so we have some. I turn down the slider a little, but don't trade yet.

IBT Xerxes demands music theory, I decline, they declare war.

Turn 1 1180 Trade Ottomans 12 gpt for horses. Upgrade some horses to knights.

Turn 2 1190 Vet knights attack: lose, retreat, retreat.

Turn 3 1200 Knights: retreat, retreat. MI win, win&promote. Archer: wins, destroys ivory city

Turn 4 1210 No attacks

IBT Persia & Scandinavia ally. Longbowman dies attacking MI on mountain. Renew Greek trade: incense for wool&spice

Turn 5 1220 Knights: lose, lose. MI: win, win, lose. Archer loses.

IBT Sardis flips to us. I accept it and then abandon it.

Turn 6 1230 Nothing

IBT LB loses to MI. Knight and MI land near Sabratha. Learn Free Artistry, switch Utica to Shakespeare's Theater.

Turn 7 1240 Knights: lose, win, win, win& razes Samaria, netting one worker.

Turn 8,9 Nothing

IBT Neapolis flips & I abandon it.

Turn 10,11 Nothing

IBT Persia & Babylon ally. 2 knights land near Carthage, complete ST, start marketplace.

Turn 12 1270 Knights: win&promote, lose. MI wins. Disband warrior & rush marketplace in Utica.

IBT Start Magellans

Turn 13 Nothing

IBT Learn Chemistr

Turn 14 Nothing

IBT 2 MI land

Turn 15 1285 Knights: retreat, retreat. MI: win, win. Trade wool& ivory for gems&dyes&1gpt with Ottomans. Trade wool&ivory for silks, world map, 4gpt, and 7 g with Celts

IBT Trade Ottomans spices for 11 gpt, 37 g, map. Persia lands knight by Carthage, 2 knights & settler by sheep. India lands by ivory.

Turn 16 1290 Knights: lose, lose. MI: win, retreats knight, win (gets 2 workers). NM wins.

IBT India builds town by ivory.

Turn 17 Nothing

IBT Galley attacks caravel, loses. India kicks us out of their ivory town.

Turn 18, 19 Nothing

IBT Smith's completes

Turn 20 1310 AD Nothing
Utica Culture: 5590, 73 cpt. Magellan's in 11, Physics in 2
Firaxis 643, Jason 851

We should switch to Newton's as soon as we learn Theory of Gravity. If we want to rush a bank, we can do it after Newton's. Then back to Magellan's.

I've moved some troops up to take India's ivory town. We need to declare war, destroy it, and recolonize the ivory.

Persia will make peace. Since they have metallurgy, I think we should do this soon, so as not to have to deal with cavalry attacks. They probably have military tradition already, or will very soon. Babylon and Scandinavia will talk but won't give an even peace, probably because they'd break an alliance. I expect this to change once we are at peace with Persia.

We need to finish out the middle ages, then I think we should research: steam power, industrialization, medicine, sanitation, and then up the bottom path to Scientific Method. We should time TOE not for the best tech situation but for asap, for the culture.

We should start a prebuild for factory/universal sufferage after Magellan's. Then build a hospital before starting a prebuild for TOE.

Our projected win date is 1910 (I think; I didn't write it down), and Newton's will bring it to well before 1900. The win date changes a little better than chunkymonkey expected because our ST date is better.

Rome isn't helping as a leader farm. Do we want to get rid of them, so as to not lose tiles to them? Either way, after making peace with the Persians, we might go on the offensive against them. I would like to get the Heroic Epic, if possible.

Just a quick note. I was looking at the SGOTM 5 signup thread, and I would like to go for it. If you guys are interested, then I would be happy to sign up with you guys again. Otherwise, I'll just drop my name in the bucket.

I for one would like to play the variant. Might be a nice change of pace to go war-monger. :)

I'd be happy to play with the two of you again, although I'd prefer it wasn't just the three of us. Do you suppose we can keep from running off the other guys this time? ;)

I don't know that conquest is a "nice" change of pace, but I'd be willing to try the variant. I noticed the provision in case no teams win with the variant. That is always encouraging. :rolleyes:

I've moved some troops up to take India's ivory town. We need to declare war, destroy it, and recolonize the ivory.

Persia will make peace. Since they have metallurgy, I think we should do this soon, so as not to have to deal with cavalry attacks. They probably have military tradition already, or will very soon. Babylon and Scandinavia will talk but won't give an even peace, probably because they'd break an alliance. I expect this to change once we are at peace with Persia.


I'm torn on this. I really would rather fight Persia than India, but we do want their town out of there and Persian war weariness could become a problem.

Cavalry attacks do not worry me at all. Once we rebuild our knights we will be fully able to take out any Persian Cavalry that land.


We need to finish out the middle ages, then I think we should research: steam power, industrialization, medicine, sanitation, and then up the bottom path to Scientific Method. We should time TOE not for the best tech situation but for asap, for the culture.

We should start a prebuild for factory/universal sufferage after Magellan's. Then build a hospital before starting a prebuild for TOE.

I agree with the research order.


Rome isn't helping as a leader farm. Do we want to get rid of them, so as to not lose tiles to them? Either way, after making peace with the Persians, we might go on the offensive against them. I would like to get the Heroic Epic, if possible.
I don't want to get rid of Rome. The squares we lose to them don't represent a lot of points, and if we kill Rome then a much more powerful AI will move in and have cities near us.

As for Persia I see a few main courses of action.
1. Ally with India against them. Take our remain Medeval Infantry over and try to sack at least one or two of their cities.
2. Attack Persia with our remaining MIs now, Don't involve India.
3. Make Peace, wait 20 turns and perform #1.
4. Make peace, have no intention of fighting another war in the near future.

At the moment we have
12 Musketmen
3 knights
1 catapult
3 Carvels
3 NMs
13 MIs

The MIs are about to be completely obsolete. We need to either disband them or use them to hurt Persia.
We need MANY more knights.
I would suggest switching the two cities doing wealth to Knights to replenish our supply.

IMO, Persia has been the most obnoxious of the AIs so far and deserves some pain.
I would advocate either 1 or 2.
In the space of 3 turns we can probably get most of our MIs and a couple Musketmen as cover over into the Persian Core.
The advantage of #1 over #2 is that Persian troops will be out of the way when our troops arrive.
The disadvantage is that We are committing to 20 more turns of war with persia.

If It were entirely up to me I would go with Option #2. 13 MIs should be enough to take out at least 1, if not 2 Persian Cities. I would also keep the Galleys there to cart off the slaves :)
EDIT2: If we can get enough slaves, we can station them in the tundra to prevent AIs from building Ivory cities :)

BTW: I figured out what happened to our Rep. Persia destroyed it by stealing our Ivory causing us to violate a ivory deal. Curse them. THEY MUST PAY.

EDIT: I should be able to get my turns in tonight, but if I don't, then I won't be able to play till Sunday. Just so you know.

We need MANY more knights.
I would suggest switching the two cities doing wealth to Knights to replenish our supply.


If we are going to go to war more actively, we certainly do. Interestingly, I had rotten luck with knights, which is partly why we don't have many. I lost 13 battles with knights while winning only 5. While some of these were hard battles (the musket fortified on the hill city was a pain), most were not. My MIs did much better: 12 wins and 1 loss at only slightly better odds. The MIs will certainly be obsolete for an invasion soon, but they aren't bad as defenders at home. With railroads they even lose their mobility issues.

I didn't want to build up a big military if all we were planning to do was continue to clear out invaders, as our unit costs have been running about 50 gpt. If we want to invade Persia, who certainly hasn't been friendly to us, we can build up more knights relatively quickly, adding 1-2 each turn.

My personal preference is to avoid fighting off-island, because I'm lazy and it requires organization and forethought. I'm willing to suffer for the sake of the team, though. ;) I don't think that we should ally with India to attack Persia. War weariness hasn't been a problem because we haven't been in their territory and we haven't had many units die as some knights retreated. If we put lots of units on Persian soil, WW may become a problem. We've been at war for 20 turns already; I don't think we want to commit to 20 more. Plus we might want to take out the Indian city on our island, which we can't do if they are our ally.

With regard to Rome, I was thinking that the more powerful civ that would move in would be Persia, and we could continue to squash them. However, it is probably better to do that on their island instead of ours. Plus, Rome has been nice to us, so they probably deserve nice treatment from us.


EDIT2: If we can get enough slaves, we can station them in the tundra to prevent AIs from building Ivory cities :)

BTW: I figured out what happened to our Rep. Persia destroyed it by stealing our Ivory causing us to violate a ivory deal. Curse them. THEY MUST PAY.


I've been placing units, mostly workers, along the shore and in the mountains to keep enemies from landing. I just realized the ivory problem too late to do anything about it, as I didn't have enough nearby people to fill all the spaces.

Did Persia have 2 ivories in their city limits? I don't remember. India has only one, so we haven't broken deals this time, just lost the use of our ivory for ourselves. The same would have happened with Persia if they only stole one.

I didn't want to build up a big military if all we were planning to do was continue to clear out invaders, as our unit costs have been running about 50 gpt. If we want to invade Persia, who certainly hasn't been friendly to us, we can build up more knights relatively quickly, adding 1-2 each turn.

Actually, this was why I wanted to send the MIs off Island. We will lose a bunch of them, but probably do some good. With the high production of our cities, disbanding MIs doesn't make much difference in production time, so I figured they'd be more valuable hurting Persia.
If nobody objects, I would like use all our MIs to attack Persia, replacing them at home with Knights.
I figure that taking the 13 MIs plus 3 muskets will allow me to sack at least one Persian city, and replacing them with 7 more knights at home would reduce our military budget by 16 gpt as the units in Persia get worn down.
Once the force is depleted I would sign peace with Persia to end the War weariness.


If we are going to go to war more actively, we certainly do. Interestingly, I had rotten luck with knights, which is partly why we don't have many. I lost 13 battles with knights while winning only 5. While some of these were hard battles (the musket fortified on the hill city was a pain), most were not. My MIs did much better: 12 wins and 1 loss at only slightly better odds. The MIs will certainly be obsolete for an invasion soon, but they aren't bad as defenders at home. With railroads they even lose their mobility issues.

I did not mean to say you did anything wrong. I could tell from the turn log that we lost a bunch of knights vrs Persia. It is just that I think it is important to replace our MIs with Knights. The Knights can then be upgraded to Cavalry giving us an extremely effective Homeland Security Force.


My personal preference is to avoid fighting off-island, because I'm lazy and it requires organization and forethought. I'm willing to suffer for the sake of the team, though. ;) I don't think that we should ally with India to attack Persia. War weariness hasn't been a problem because we haven't been in their territory and we haven't had many units die as some knights retreated. If we put lots of units on Persian soil, WW may become a problem. We've been at war for 20 turns already; I don't think we want to commit to 20 more. Plus we might want to take out the Indian city on our island, which we can't do if they are our ally.

Agreed on not wanting to commit to more.


With regard to Rome, I was thinking that the more powerful civ that would move in would be Persia, and we could continue to squash them. However, it is probably better to do that on their island instead of ours. Plus, Rome has been nice to us, so they probably deserve nice treatment from us.
I agree that it would be Persia. I don't want them to have more cities than they do. Even for short periods of time (the 20 turns it takes us for peace to expire). Thus I like having Rome down there.



Did Persia have 2 ivories in their city limits? I don't remember. India has only one, so we haven't broken deals this time, just lost the use of our ivory for ourselves. The same would have happened with Persia if they only stole one.
They had one, guess I didn't solve the mystery.

NOTE: I have to say that I find it interesting being in the position of being the bloodthirsty one. I'm generally a builder.

Sorry I haven't called in for a couple of days, been a little busy. Sounds like things are sort of going to plan anyway. I'll post some thoughts once I get back from work on Sunday... here goes another long weekend...

BTW, I don't think I'm going to be able to take part in SGOTM5. I've got exams coming up just before Christmas so I don't think I can squeeze it in to my timetable. But I wish you guys the best of luck. I really would have liked to have played the variant, sounds good fun.

I agree with all the thoughts so far. persia does deserve to be squashed. I wouldn't mind having a few more units around on Carthage island before we travel to Persia, just in case. But everything seems great, grab Newton's, we'll get some cavalry and then once we have a continental railway (assuming we have coal :hmm: ), we'll be laughing. Look forward to hearing the results jeff.

1410AD Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/jeffelammar_SG004_AD1410_01.SAV)

Ok, so quick summary is that Persia slammed the door shut on my invasion. :(

Turn Log.
Turn 0 - 1310AD - Switch Theveste -> Caravel and Carthage to Knight
IBT: zzz

Turn 1 - 1315AD - Adjust research to maximize gold
IBT: Renegotiate horses from Ottomans get horses for 12gpt.
Discover Physics - Start on Theory of Gravity

Turn 2 - 1320AD - Taxes back up TOG in 9 at +25gpt
IBT: Leptis Minor builds Knight -> Knight, Theveste builds Caravel -> Knight

Turn 3 - 1325AD - Veteran Knight kills Persian Knight
IBT: Veteran Musketman defeats Persian Longbow

Turn 4 - 1330AD - Not a whole lot going on
IBT: Greece wants to renegotiate. Trade them wool for Incense + 15 gold + World Map

Turn 5 - 1335AD - 3 Veteran Knights kill 2 persian knights and 1 longbow. One promotes to elite.
IBT: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Turn 6 - 1340AD - Move more units into position for persian invasion.
IBT: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Turn 7 - 1345AD - Invade Persia. Land 1 Musket, 7 MIs and 1 LB on hills near Pasargadae
IBT: Yep, Pesians have Cavalry. They kill our musketman and 1 MI.

Turn 8 - 1350AD - Attack Pasargadae - lose 3 MI and a LB, kill 4 musketmen.
IBT: Persia eliminates rest of attack force.

Turn 9 - 1355AD - Peace with Persia, Scandanavia, and Babylon.
Declare on India and raze Bengal with elite Knight. Rebuild Ivory Colony. Station troops to prevent another city being built up there.
Switch to Wealth keeping our 12 knights.
IBT: Ottomans demand Music Theory and Territory Map. Refuse and end at war.

Turn 10 - 1360AD - taxes up research down
IBT: Discover Theory of Gravity - Start Magnetism - Big Picture - switch Utica to Newton - build Newtons - Switch Utica to bank.

Turn 11 - 1365AD - Cash rush bank in Utica. Up research.
IBT: Utica builds Bank -> Harbor

Turn 12 - 1370AD - Disband a bunch of MIs in Utica to get Harbor in 1.
IBT: Celts join Ottomans in Military Alliance against us :(
Utica builds Harbor -> Magellans.

Turn 13 - 1375AD - Micromanage Utica to Use forest. With the harbor we now have 1 more food, so can work all 3 forests without losing stored food.
IBT: zzzzzz

Turn 14 - 1380AD - Nothing interesting to report
IBT: India wants peace give it to them for World Map + 10g + 8gpt

Turn 15 - 1385AD - Trade Wool to India for Furs
IBT: zzzzzzzzz

Turn 16 - 1390AD - Trade with Greece: give Physics + 58 gold for Metallurgy. There were two other civs with Physics, so I figured catching Greece up and allowing us to get a tech was worth it.
IBT: Spot Ottoman Galley heading toward Carthage. Will track

Turn 17 - 1395AD - Move some knights nearer the expected Ottoman landing. Reduce Research to minimize overflow.
IBT: Discover Magnetism, enter Industrial Age start on Steam Power

Turn 18 - 1400AD - Steam in 11, switch Theveste and Carthage to Worker
IBT: build 2 workers, back to wealth, Ottomans land 1 MI, oooooo I'm scared.

Turn 19 - 1405AD - Kill the MI with an Elite Knight
IBT: zzzzzzzzzzzz

Turn 20 - 1410AD - Form embassy in Persia. (They will have Magellan in 16)

Persia was the first to start Magellans, so we appear to be safe in our quest for it. The ottomans are the only other civ building it right now.

There is another Ottoman galley on the way. They seem to like landing east of Carthage, so concentrate defense there.
Other than that everything proceeds according to plan.

Sorry my persian invasion failed. I probably should have waited 1 more turn and landed more defenses with them. Oh well. It got rid of surplus military, so it wasn't all bad.

Well, it's too bad the Persian invasion didn't do more to slow down the Persians, but it got rid of some nearly obsolete units and reduced our costs, so it succeeded in its primary mission.

We're moving along nicely in our culture building. We have a new little war to keep farming our little leader patch. If we have coal, we'll be in good shape. If we don't have coal, we'll have to decide what to do based on where we can get some. If Persia is the only civ with two sources, I'm going to be really unhappy.

Nice job with your turns. With Newton's University and Magellan's Voyage we are rounding out the middle ages really well, wonder-wise.

cool don't worry about the persian invasion too much. as soon as we have cavalry we won't have anything to worry about. i'll play tomorrow, if there's anything anybody wants to say before I do, go ahead.

cool don't worry about the persian invasion too much. as soon as we have cavalry we won't have anything to worry about. i'll play tomorrow, if there's anything anybody wants to say before I do, go ahead.
I was disappointed, but it really only cost us about 30 gold. (The difference in what Persia would give us for peace before and after)

Oh well. If we want, we can do it again with Cavalry. 9 Cavs with 3 Musketmen should be more than enough to do some damage.

Or put another way, we traded a decrease in unit costs for a decrease in what Persia would pay, so it isn't really a loss at all. It isn't like we could disband them for particularly useful shields now, anyway.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/jeffelammar_SG004_AD1510_01.SAV

0 - 1410AD - Greek Trade : ToG and Spice -> Horses+MilTrad+7gpt. Upgrade our horsies. Everything else seems cool.
IBT - The Ottomans land a Sipahi east of Carthage.
1 - 1415AD - Elite knight kills Sipahi.
IBT - Ottomans land a pike and medinf east of Carthage. Romans move spear and setller into territory
2 - 1420AD - Elite knight kills pike. Elite knight loses to medinf. Veteran cavalry kills medinf. Ask romans to leave.
IBT -
3 - 1425AD - Nothing.
IBT - Romans are in again.
4 - 1430AD - Nada.
IBT - Ottoman galley attacks our caravel and doesn't make a scratch. Renogotiate Greek Trade : We give Wool -> Incense+3g+Map.
5 - 1435AD - Celtic galley lands knight and medinf.
IBT -
6 - 1440AD - Vet cav defeats vet knight. Elite knight defeats elite medinf. Ask Romans to leave - they declare war on us. vet cav kills reg spear and nets two Roman slaves. Change LM to cavalry.
IBT - Ottomans land knight next to Utica.
7 - 1445AD - Elite knight loses to Otto knight. Vet cav defeats knight.
IBT - Persia and Celts sign a trade embargo against us. Persia declares war on the Indians.
8 - 1450AD - Change city builds ('cept Utica) to Worker.
IBT - Celts and Persia sign MA against India. Learn Steam Power. The HG is obsolete. Industrialisation in 13. Carthage builds worker - Cavalry. LM builds Cavalry - Worker. Theveste builds worker - ironclad. Sabratha builds worker - ironclad.
9 - 1455AD - Vet cav defeats Roman longbow. Ottoman Peace Treaty : Steam Power -> Medicine+107gpt!!! Also sign PT with Celts. Ottoman deal : ivory -> dyes+4gpt. Industrialisation in 9.
IBT - Utica builds Magellan's. Switch to Palace pre-build for UniSuff. LM builds worker - worker. The people put a roof on our palace.
10 - 1460AD - Industrialisation in 11 to match pre-build. LM builds worker - wealth.
IBT -
11 - 1465AD - Change to Indy in 9.
IBT -
12 - 1470AD -
IBT - Carthage builds Cavalry - Wealth. Sabratha builds ironclad - wealth.
13 - 1475AD -
IBT - Theveste builds ironclad - wealth.
14 - 1480AD - Trade Steam to Greece for 45gpt + 85g. Vet cav defeats Roman longbow and promotes.
IBT - Renew Peace Treaty with Indians.
15 - 1485AD - Ironclad sinks Roman galley. Change Carthage and LM build to worker.
IBT - Carthage builds worker - start factory prebuild. LM builds worker - wealth.
16 - 1490AD - Ottoman trade : Wool -> Gems+10gpt+17g. Sabratha and Theveste start factory prebuilds. Elite cavalry destroys Roman longbow. Change LM to factory prebuild.
IBT -
17 - 1495AD - Elite cavalry destroys another Roman longbow. Still no leaders.
IBT -
18 - 1500AD -
IBT - ottomans and Persia sign MA against India.
19 - 1505AD -
IBT - Learn Industrialisation - start Electricity (11). Switch all builds to factory - except Utica which switches to UniSuff. Finished in 17.
20 - 1510AD -

We haven't invested any beakers in Electricity yet, so we could go for Sanitation in 7, but grabbing ToE might be a little tight. Hospitals would be useful for after everyone's finished their factories, but do we want to be sure of geting ToE?

India must have a settler on a boat somewhere. Persia has captured all their cities. :( Persians are getting very strong and may start to overtake us tech-wise. This shouldn't matter. The game should be over before UN or space. As long as we don't get invaded by the Persians, everything'll be fine.

Workers are railing everywhere. Utica is optimised, but will need its forests cutting down once a hospital is in place.

Predicted win date (with UniSuff build) : 1884 (in 117 turns)
ToE will shave a couple of turns off of this.

Things sound good. I think we should go for hospitals first. I'm confident we can get TOE first either way, and we want to get Universal Sufferage before TOE anyway. Because of this, we aren't in a hurry, research-wise. We want US, a factory, and a hospital before Utica starts on TOE. (Stuffing Utica full of workers will give us more shields for the TOE build.) We'll rush the factory and hospital, but that gives us 19 turns before we start a prebuild, which should be plenty of time for sanitation, electricity, and scientific method.

I plan on playing tonight unless we need discussion time. I finished off GOTM 37 yesterday, so I have should have plenty of time.

Looks great. You did more trading than I expected, but I like it.

Couple points
1. I agree with CKS on getting Hospitals before going after Electricity.

2. I can't look at the save from work, but it seems to me Utica ought to be producing about 32 shields or so.
If we switch Utica to a Factory this turn and rush a coal plant next turn, then Utica will be producing 64 shields (32 + 16 for the Factory + 16 for the coal plant) ending with Universal Sufferage in 13 turns from then.
So if we do Factory -> Coal Plant -> Universal, we should get Universal Sufferage in the less time. 2 turns of rushing + 13 of building vrs 17 turns.

Note: the 16 for the coal plant assumes that Catt's Strategy article (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=52745) is correct. I thought it would be 8, but this article says 16. (If it is 8, then we would get Uni in the same time as now, so it is still worth it)

I agree about the coal plant (in fact, I was going to come back and edit in comments about getting a coal plant after a factory, but I guess I won't now) under one condition. If we don't have enough money to rush the coal factory, and we have to spend several turns building it, then it isn't worth it. I won't be able to look at the save until later, so I don't know our finances. It seems likely that we should have enough cash, though, since we are getting all this gpt.

I'm pretty sure that we get a 50% increase from a coal plant, so we should double our shield output with both of them. (However, I generally panic about getting TOE and get to electronics before industrialization, giving me Hoover before a factory, so I don't build coal plants much.)

If we don't have enough money to rush the coal factory, and we have to spend several turns building it, then it isn't worth it.
Agreed.

(However, I generally panic about getting TOE and get to electronics before industrialization, giving me Hoover before a factory, so I don't build coal plants much.)
Normally I don't build them much either, but in this case I really don't want to have to wait for Hoover to get the extra production in Utica.
We will have to remember to sell the Coal Plant as soon as we get Hoover though.

Since Utica can't build Hoover, we should make sure to time a Prebuild in Leptis Minor or Carthage to be ready for switch at the same time we get ToE.

No, I don't think we want to wait for Hoover. The hydro dam we get from Hoover should replace our coal plant automatically, as far as pollution is concerned. Selling it just gives us money.

We probably should build a coal plant wherever we plan on building Hoover, just to speed up its construction. I don't know about the other cities. They don't have stuff to build, so the extra production is perhaps not worth it. If they are building wealth, more turns at lower production vs fewer turns at higher production and more pollution doesn't seem to make much difference.

No, I don't think we want to wait for Hoover. The hydro dam we get from Hoover should replace our coal plant automatically, as far as pollution is concerned. Selling it just gives us money.
Actually, the pollution is produced and mantainence is incurred even if we have both a Coal Plant and Hoover.


We probably should build a coal plant wherever we plan on building Hoover, just to speed up its construction. I don't know about the other cities.
Agreed on building one in the Hoover city.
I wouldn't suggest building a Coal Plant anywhere else though. As you said, the production isn't worth it if we are just going to be doing wealth anyway.

Here is the save.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/jeffelammar_SG004_AD1610_01.sav

We had plenty of money, so I switched Utica to a factory, wasting 73 shields. I also switched to sanitation. I continued to trade spices for Greek horses. After the factory I rushed a coal plant for 680 g. This got us up to 64 net shields in Utica, and I started Universal Sufferage. Most turns I did nothing but have workers railing and other improvements, so I'm only going to write the other stuff.

1520 Elite Cav kills longbow. I notice that Lutetia is stealing our wool and decide to get rid of it.
1525 3 cavs raze Lutetia, giving us 4 workers, LM finishes factory
1530 Greek trade: 44 g & 4 gpt& incense for wool. All cities to coal plant prebuild for hospital.
1535 E cav kills spear, nets 2 workers
1540 E cav kills spear, nets 2 workers
1545 embargo against us ends, learn sanitation, LM builds hospital& starts coal plant
1550 E cav kills LB, Trade Persia wool & ivory for fur, 28 gpt, 57 g, and map, trade Celts wool for silks
1555 Renew peace deal with Ottomans, trade spices for 19 gpt.
1560 Trade ivory to Ottomans for dyes & 6gpt, Persians start US.
1565 E cav kills LB
1580 Trade Babs world map for 6 gpt, 18 g. Finish US, rush hospital
1585 Finish hospital, start Battlefield Medicine
1590 E cav kills LB, add 3 workers to Utica, now working all shields, 80 net. Add workers to Theveste. Trade Ottomans wool for gems, 4 gpt, 34 g.
1595 Scientific Method in 6, BM in 6
1600 Add workers to Sabratha, Germany demands tribute, declares war.

Utica has 10539 cp, 90 cpt. Firaxis 775, Jason 1026.

LM can do > 100 net shields. It should switch to BM when Utica switches to TOE, and then to Hoover. Ottomans finally learned the corporation. I think we should trade them electricity for it. This gives us stock exchanges and Wall Street. Persia already has electricity, replaceable parts, and the corporation.

LM can do > 100 net shields. It should switch to BM when Utica switches to TOE, and then to Hoover. Ottomans finally learned the corporation. I think we should trade them electricity for it. This gives us stock exchanges and Wall Street. Persia already has electricity, replaceable parts, and the corporation.
Looking good. :thumbsup:

I took a look at the save before I came to work and it looked good. I should be able to play tonight.

My thought on Utica is ToE -> Stock Exchange (rush) -> Wall Street -> Battlefield Medicine -> (hopefully) Intelligence Agency.

Obviously if lady luck ever strikes us so we can build Heroic Epic, then that would be higher priority than anything other ToE, but I am beginning to despair of getting it in this game.

The tech race sure has picked up. Let's discuss strategy on the end of the Industrial Era. The way I see it, we have two main choices (with minor variations on each).
1. Don't trade any tech at all after we get the Corporation (or Espionage)
Advantage: We don't push the tech race any faster.
Cons: We may fall behind and be at risk if Persia manages to get to the end of the age before we hit 20K. (I think this is unlikely anyway, but should be considered)

2. Keep being active tech traders and try to keep pace with Persia.
Advantage: We are right there with them and may even get the UN before the end of the game.

I have a mild preference for #1, but I wanted to discuss.

I agree with jeff's thoughts on Utica builds. Heroic epic would be nice even now (actually, we have no other pressing builds, so now would be great), but we have had pretty bad leader luck. Granted, we haven't been pushing the attack, but we've been constantly at war, and we've been averaging probably 5 elite victories per 20 turn set. Oh, well.

As for tech trading, I like the no trades except for the corporation approach. We'll be all the way up the bottom path after TOE, and I think we can outresearch the Ottomans up the top path, so there won't be much trading to do. I think we should research as fast as we can, as the modern age has some wonders we can build, but I don't think we should do anything to help Persia along. I don't think that Persia can outresearch us by all that much.

If we can pick up things from weaker AIs when everyone else has them, we probably should. I don't really want to research nationalism, for instance, but we need it for espionage.

If Persia starts pulling away, I think we should pull the Greeks and Ottomans into a war with them to try to distract them. I think we should then ignore them, except for a pillaging force (and destroying any invading forces).

At this point, I'm leaning toward coasting to the finish.

For research, I'd like to pick up replacable parts to get faster workers (since almost all of ours are foreign) for cleaning up pollution. I'd like to trade for nationalism if we can get it cheaply. Then get espionage and head up the top path.

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/jeffelammar_SG004_AD1710_01.SAV)

Quick Summary
11 Elite wins - 0 leaders :(
We have tech parity with Persia, Ottomans and Greece
(I purposely kept Otto and Greece close in tech)
We are again at war with the treacherous Xerces.

Longer Version
Turn 0 - 1610 AD
Reduce taxes (still Scientific Method in 3)
Trade Electricty to Ottomans for Corporation + World Map
IBT:
Renegotiate with Greece get horses + 8g + WM for 1 lux

Turn 1 - 1615 AD
E Cavalry wins. (1 elite win) - Gets 2 slaves.
Realize I forgot to set everone to build Stock Exchanges. Switch all but Utica.
IBT: zzz

Turn 2 - 1620 AD
Another Elite Win (2)
IBT: Discover Scientific Method - switch Utica to ToE
Leptis Minor builds Stock Exchange -> Battlefield Medicine

Turn 3 - 1625 AD
Taxes -> 0 science. ToE in 1.
IBT:
Complete ToE get Atomic Theory and Electronics. Start on Replacable Parts. Utica starts Stock Exchange

Turn 4 - 1630 AD
Switch LM to Hoover
Disband a MI and cash rush Stock Exchange in Utica
Persia now has Refining :(
Elite Win (3)
IBT:
Rome wants peace refuse.
Greece gives incense + 4gpt for 1 lux
Carthage, Theveste and Sabratha build Stock Exchanges -> Wealth
Utica builds Stock Exchange -> Wall Street

Turn 5 - 1635 AD ZZZZZzzzzZZZZZZZZzzzzzz
IBT: zzzzzzzzzz

Turn 6 - 1640 AD
Elite Win (4)
IBT: zzzzzzz

Turn 7 - 1645 AD
Elite Win (5)
IBT: zzzzzzzzzzzz

Turn 8 - 1650 AD
zzzzz
IBT:
Trade wool to Celts for silk, 25 gold, 2gpt and World Map
Trade wool and ivory to persia for furs + 45 gpt
Utica builds Wall Street -> Battlefield Medicine

Turn 9 - 1655 AD
Elite Win (6)
Make peace with Germany. (The just entered IA and got Steam as free. I was hoping they'd get Nationalism so I could trade them level 1 techs for it. Oh well.
IBT:
Sell Spices to Ottomans for 22 gpt
Add 3 pieces to our palace.

Turn 10 - 1660 AD
Another Elite Win (7)
IBT:
Trade ivory to ottomans for dyes + 9gpt
Leptis Minor Builds Hoover Dam - Sell Coal Plants LM starts wealth.

Turn 11 - 1665 AD
Another Elite Win (8)
IBT:
Persia declares war. (they attack our caravels, killing one and losing 2 Frigates)
Discover Replacable Parts -> Nationalism
1 more palace part

Turn 12 - 1670 AD
Trade Replacable Parts + Corporation + 188g to Greece for Nationalism
Research Espionage
Greece and Ottomans have Communism
IBT:
Caravels kill 3 Persian Frigates :bounce:

Turn 13 - 1675 AD Establish Embassies with Greece and Ottomans
Give Osman 490 Gold for alliance vrs Persia
Give Ivory + 92g to Greece for alliance vrs Persia
IBT:
Celts DoW on Greece
Persia lands in force 1 nw of Theveste. (1 infantry, 4 cavs, 1 rifle, 1 LB, 1 MI)

Turn 14 - 1680 AD
Lose 2 Cavalry (1 elite, 1 vet) killing the 8 Persians.
Switch Carthage and LM to Cavalry to replace them.
Upgrade 4 muskets to Infantry.
IBT:
Trade Nationalism to Celts for WM + 4gpt + 70g to make sure they have defenses against Greece.
Persia lands 4 more (2 infantry, 2 cavalry). This stack causes problems.

Turn 15 - 1685 AD
Fight, but only kill 1 Infantry. Forces were still wounded so I couldn't use them all.
Elite Win (9)
IBT:
Persians attack our tundra forces killing a LB and a NM. They also capture 2 workers that I accidently left in range.
Utica builds Battlefield Medicine and starts Palace as prebuild for Intelligence Agency

Turn 16 - 1690 AD
Elite Win (10)
Finish off Persian Invasion force except for 1 redlined Cav.
IBT:
India Signs Military Alliance against us with Persia (they still don't have a city, so I'm quaking in my boots)
The Redlined Cavalry sacks 1 of our ivory colonies (for some reason I thought there was a unit in it but was wrong oops)
Trade wool to ottomans for 10 gpt + Gems
Discover Espionage -> Refining

Turn 17 - 1695 AD
Elite Win (11)
IBT: zzzzz

Turn 18 - 1700 AD zzzzzzzzzz
IBT:
Scandinavia and Babylon sign Trade agreements with Persia against us.

Turn 19 - 1705 AD
Ottomans and Greece discover Refining
Trade Atomic Theory to Ottomans for Communism, Refining, WM, 511g and 85 gpt.
Trade Atomic Theory to Greece for 9gpt + 22g.
(I did the greece one to keep them close and prevent their trading around)
Start Research Radio - Most likely tech to remain tradeable for a long time.
IBT:
Greece requests Alliance vrs Celts refuse.

Turn 20 - 1710 AD Not much to do


Utica Culture: 12431 (102 cpt)
Estimated Win: 1874

Not much to say. I would say don't sign Peace with Persia until after the Alliances are up. This should slow them a bit. We should be able to kill them off better now. I just built a few artillery so we will be able to bombard any more infantry that land. They are also great for driving off the Persian fleet that has been bombarding our shores.

We are still at war with Rome, but we probably want to end that war and wait a while to keep pounding them. I leave that decision to ChunkyMonkey.

Cool :thumbsup: i'll play this evening unless anybody has any problems.

I wonder if we can try and stop Persian access to the UN for another 70 turns? Who would vote for them anyway?!

I plan to build a few warships as soon as they become available to try and prevent future amphibious assaults on Utica (wouldn't you just hate it if Xerxes razed Utica in the dying seconds of the game) and defend our coast slightly more efficiently. Is this OK?

Also, where the hell is Gandhi? :crazyeye:

It sounds like your turns were much more interesting than mine. Good job on the leader farming, too. It is just too bad that our soil is really poor for it. This last set of turns was 22 elite wins, no leaders. I'm kind of interested in how long our streak is, but not yet willing to count them up. My laziness is acting up.

I vote for making peace with the Romans for now. They aren't a threat, but we'll have other things on our minds for a while; we don't need to keep a lookout for their one longbow every 5 turns.

I like artillery.:) I think a few warships is a good idea, too, although I don't usually make great use of them.

I'd also like to see a group of infantry and maybe cavalry go over to Persia and start pillaging. I don't think attacking cities will get us anywhere, but disrupting their trade networks and destroying mines and irrigation will set them back. Since we have BM, they can fort up every so often to heal, and they may be able to last quite a while.

We don't have any culture to build in Utica for a while, so getting an army for the heroic epic and military academy would be really nice. We'll just need to keep plugging away. Eventually we'll get a leader. In the meantime, we can build more military or wealth in Utica.

Cool :thumbsup: i'll play this evening unless anybody has any problems.

I've got lots of Problems, but nothing that should stop you from playing. :mischief:


I wonder if we can try and stop Persian access to the UN for another 70 turns? Who would vote for them anyway?!

I'm more worried about the #2. It would probably be either the Ottomans or Greece and they are more likely to be popular. Probably not an issue because Persia would build and not call a vote, but we should try to get the UN so we control the vote.


I plan to build a few warships as soon as they become available to try and prevent future amphibious assaults on Utica (wouldn't you just hate it if Xerxes razed Utica in the dying seconds of the game) and defend our coast slightly more efficiently. Is this OK?

Completely ok. I wouldn't build more than 4 or 5 warships though. Remember that with Combustion we will get Destroyers and will want to replace the ironclads with those.


Also, where the hell is Gandhi? :crazyeye:
I too have been wondering. I nearly fell off my chair when I got the Declaration of War from India and then realized that they had declared war with 0 cities. :lol:


I'd also like to see a group of infantry and maybe cavalry go over to Persia and start pillaging. I don't think attacking cities will get us anywhere, but disrupting their trade networks and destroying mines and irrigation will set them back. Since we have BM, they can fort up every so often to heal, and they may be able to last quite a while.

Not a bad idea. There is one thing to keep in mind. Having our troops on Persian soil will increase War Weariness (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=61628). (One wwp per turn)
The bombardment of our coasts is also increasing War Weariness, so the ChunkyMonkey's idea of getting some warships out there will also help. I was hoping for an army so we could move through Persia with impunity, but since the Civ gods don't seem to want to smile on us...

One other thing, We could blockade Utica with a couple ships making it very hard for someone to land an amphibious assault. (I currently have 2 infantry there and would suggest adding one more just to be safe.)

Looks like the gods of fate smile upon us after all... ;)

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/jeffelammar_SG004_AD1774_01.SAV

0 - 1710AD - Sign Peace Treaty with Rome and get 32g+2gpt.
IBT - Renogotiate trade with Greeks : Spice -> Horses+1gpt+15g. Utica builds Intel Agency - starts churning out ironclads. LM continues to churn out arty.
1 - 1715AD - Bombard some Persian ships.
IBT - Babylon declares war on the Ottomans. Celts and Ottomans sign MA against Babylon.
2 - 1720AD - Lose ironclad to Persian ironclad. Vet cav kills reg inf. Vet cav kills vet inf. Elite cav kills vet cav and nets two Persian slaves.
IBT -
3 - 1725AD - Not much.
IBT - Persia lands some cavalry near Carthage. Ottomans and India sign MA against Babylon.
4 - 1730AD - Vet cav kills elite cav. Elite cav kills vet cav and... we get a great Leader - Mago! :yeah: Use him to build an army - fill it with cavalry. Cavalry army kills vet cavalry. Switch Utica build to Heroic Epic. Vet cavalry kills remaining Persian vet cavalry.
IBT - Babylon declares war on the Greeks. :lol: I think they have a deathwish! India and Ottomans sign MA against the Vikings. Germany and Ottomans sign MA against Persia. Renogotiate Greek Trade : Wool -> Incense+6gpt+12g. India wants peace. I get 220g from them.
5 - 1735AD -
IBT - The trade Embargo between the Vikings and Persia against us ends. Persia lands some cavalry. Persia learns Steel.
6 - 1740AD - Vet cav loses to vet cav. Vet cav kills elite cav. Vet cav kills vet cav. Vet cav kills vet cav and gets two persian slaves.
IBT - Utica builds Heroic Epic - Starts MilAcademy.
7 - 1745AD - Vet cav kills vet Guerilla. Vet cav loses to reg inf. Army kills two infantry.
IBT -
8 - 1750AD - Not much happens
IBT - Renogotiate Celtic trade : Wool -> Silks+3gpt+17g. Rome and Ottomans sign MA against Babylon. Rome and Ottomans sigh MA against Persia. Oops... Bye Caesar :wavey: . Learn Radio - Steel in 6.
9 - 1752AD -
IBT - Renogotiate Ottoman deal : Spice -> 24gpt+2g.
10 - 1754AD -
IBT - Renogotiate Ottoman deal : Ivory -> Dyes+11gpt+15g.
11 - 1756AD -
IBT - Celts and Ottomans sign MA against Persia. Utica builds MilAcademy.
12 - 1758AD -
IBT -
13 - 1760AD - Sign PT with Persia and get 10gpt+75g.
IBT - Persia and Scandinavia sign a PT. Our Oil source disappears! :eek:
14 - 1762AD - Greek Trade : Ivory -> Oil+208g.
IBT - Learn Steel - start combustion.
15 - 1764AD - Ask Persian ironclads to move.
IBT - Persia and Germany sign PT. Renogotiate Ottoman Trade : Wool -> Gems+12gpt+16g. The Celts establish an Embassy.
16 - 1766AD -
IBT -
17 - 1768AD -
IBT -
18 - 1770AD -
IBT - The trade embargo against us between Persia and Babylon ends. Persia and India sign a PT. The Vikings establish an embassy.
19 - 1772AD - Persian Trade : Wool -> Furs+4gpt+13g.
IBT - Babylon and Celts sign MA against Vikings.
20 - 1774AD -

Predicted win date: 1868
Culture per turn: 115

We'll have Combustion in 2. I'm seriously doubting Persia will make it out of the Industrial Age before we win, but if we can snag the UN before 1830ish (unlikely), we should reduce our win date by one turn.

All cities are now entirely maxed out. The forests are in Utica and Carthage to prevent flip-flopping between growth and starvation. All that remains for workers to do is keep an eye on pollution.

I feel much happier that we managed to get a 2nd leader. It was about time!

Since there are only 46/47 turns left, I don't mind if you two want to share the remaining turns between you.

Nice job. Good thing one of us has some luck.


4 - 1730AD - Vet cav kills elite cav. Elite cav kills vet cav and... we get a great Leader - Mago! :yeah: Use him to build an army - fill it with cavalry. Cavalry army kills vet cavalry. Switch Utica build to Heroic Epic. Vet cavalry kills remaining Persian vet cavalry.
:bounce:


India wants peace. I get 220g from them.

:lol: How can a nation with no cities have 220 gold?


Rome and Ottomans sign MA against Babylon. Rome and Ottomans sigh MA against Persia. Oops... Bye Caesar :wavey: . Learn Radio - Steel in 6.

The stupidity of the AIs sometimes amazes me. If we can, we should see if we can protect Rome from Persia


13 - 1760AD - Sign PT with Persia and get 10gpt+75g.
IBT - Persia and Scandinavia sign a PT. Our Oil source disappears! :eek:

:wallbash: [pissed]
Curse the RNG. Oh well, at least we probably don't need the oil anyway.


Predicted win date: 1868
Culture per turn: 115

We'll have Combustion in 2. I'm seriously doubting Persia will make it out of the Industrial Age before we win, but if we can snag the UN before 1830ish (unlikely), we should reduce our win date by one turn.

All cities are now entirely maxed out. The forests are in Utica and Carthage to prevent flip-flopping between growth and starvation. All that remains for workers to do is keep an eye on pollution.

:rockon:

Couple notes:
1. The Courthouse in being built in Utica will do no good and cost 1 gpt. We should probably just do wealth. The 1 waste and 1 corrupted trade is the best we can do. (For that matter the courthouse in LM is costing us and should also be sold) I feel like I should have checked this about 200 turns ago, but oh well. The good news is this doesn't really make any real difference.
2. We are set. There is no way Persia or any other AI can hit the modern age in time to hurt us unless we help them. :rockon:
3. At this point, there is no reason to do anything warlike unless we want to do so for fun.
4. Would actually say we should not try to get into the Modern Age at all. We are better off investing in "entertainment" at this point. The only thing we can change now is our score, so I suggest that we start converting some of our mined land to irrigation, and start spending enough on entertainment that all citizens are happy. We currently have several unhappy citizens who are not giving us any points. A 10 or 20 % luxury tax should be enough to keep everyone happy. Then we can grow more specialists by changing to irrigation.

Well, finally! Good job on picking up heroic epic and military academy for us, chunkymonkey.

I agree about switching everyone to wealth, doing some irrigation, and making people happy. I'm willing to coast instead of rushing for the possiblility of the UN, since it won't help much. I'll sell the courthouse in LM and see what I can do about building a little more score while we wait.

I'll probably play this afternoon. This has been an enjoyable and educational experience. Thanks.

4. Would actually say we should not try to get into the Modern Age at all. We are better off investing in "entertainment" at this point. The only thing we can change now is our score, so I suggest that we start converting some of our mined land to irrigation, and start spending enough on entertainment that all citizens are happy. We currently have several unhappy citizens who are not giving us any points. A 10 or 20 % luxury tax should be enough to keep everyone happy. Then we can grow more specialists by changing to irrigation.
Yes, I'm quoting myself. I was just thinking and wanted to make myself clearer. No I don't mean more transparent. :)

1. I do not want to change Utica to food. Keep the production there for Modern Age wonders if we get there.
2. I do not want to abandon research. I just think that having all citizens happy is a higher priority.
3. I just checked and with a 10% lux tax and 1 entertainer in a couple cities we can have all citizens happy. This will add a little bit to our score as we head towards the end of the game.

Well, finally! Good job on picking up heroic epic and military academy for us, chunkymonkey.

I agree about switching everyone to wealth, doing some irrigation, and making people happy. I'm willing to coast instead of rushing for the possiblility of the UN, since it won't help much. I'll sell the courthouse in LM and see what I can do about building a little more score while we wait.

I'll probably play this afternoon. This has been an enjoyable and educational experience. Thanks.
My last post must have been a cross post. I hadn't seen this.

I just want to say that I agree with everything you said. Especially the part about this being enjoyable and educational.

Here is the save.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/jeffelammar_SG004_AD1814_01.sav

Well, despite the closeness in time, I missed your last post, jeff. I did switch Utica to food, but you can switch it back to shields if you want. We've got 18 foreign workers, so you can switch back very quickly if you want. (I don't know relative irrigation/mining times, but two workers irrigate a tile in 1 turn now, so it will take only a turn or two to switch back.)

Anyway, I set everybody to wealth, put lux to 20%, which wasn't smart, as I should have set it to 10% and used 2 entertainers, as jeff suggested but I didn't realize until later. I sold the courthouse in LM.

IBT I renewed the peace treaty with Rome and the spice/horses trade with Greece.

Turns 1&2 I irrigated

IBT Babylon establishes an embassy, we learn combustion and start mass production (in 8).

Turns 3&4 More irrigation, move infantry down to protect Hispalis.

IBT Renew wool/incense trade with Greece

Turn 5 Build embassy with Rome and get ROP

Turns 6-8 Irrigate, chop forest, clean pollution

IBT Renew wool/silk trade with Celts

Turn 9 Irrigate

IBT Learn mass production, start motorized transportation, renew ottoman spice trade

Turn 10 Clean pollution

IBT Renew Ottoman ivory/dyes trade

Turn 11,12 Clean pollution

IBT Babylonians destroyed by Vikings

Turn 13 Clean pollution

IBT Renew Persian peace treaty

Turn 14 Clean pollution

IBT Oil deal expires, Greece wants lots for it and we don't really need it, so trade ivory for lots of money, which we also don't need.

Turn 15,16 Clean pollution

IBT Renew Ottoman gem deal, learn MT, start flight.

Turn 17,18 Clean pollution, in 1810 I buy a worker from the Ottomans. Now we can clean up a hill and a grasslands tile in one turn.

IBT Ottomans demand music theory, I give it to them.

Turn 19 Clean pollution

IBT Renew wool/fur trade with Persia. A Celtic cavalry wanders over by LM. We need to keep an eye on it.

Turn 20, 1814 AD Nothing.

Utica has 16944 culture, 115 cpt.
Firaxis 911
Jason 1206
We have 100 happy citizens and 44 specialists

I should've built a granary in Utica, but didn't think about it. I'd build one now, even if you want to rebuild shield capacity there as we could speed our growth up a little.

We can probably get the UN with a turn or two to go in the game; sooner if you want to gift the scientific civs into the modern ages and we get lucky. It might take a turn off our time.

:rockon:
No problems. You probably gained us more score than my plan would have. I just was going to save the production in Utica so we could build the UN if necessary.

I'm going to start playing in an hour or so. Since ChunkyMonkey indicated that we should go ahead and finish, I'll probably play till the end unless I run out of time or I hear an objection in the next hour.

Well, I went ahead and finished up.

Cultural Victory in 1868 with 20071 culture in Utica.
The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/jeffelammar_SG004_AD1868_01.SAV)

If you want to watch the end sequence, I have attached the save from 1866.

Nothing really interesting happened in the last set. After some calculations, I decided to get Computers as our first MA tech. This allowed Research Lab 8 turns earlier than I could get UN, and the Culture was slightly better that way.

Turn log
1814AD - zzz
IBT - Renew a couple trade, but don't trade for horses any more.

1816AD - Clean pollution (I did this a lot, won't mention again)
IBT: Scandinavians demand Physics give it

1818AD - zzz

1820AD - zzz
IBT: Greece and Persia make peace, Scandinavia and Greece MA vrs Celts

1822AD: zzz
IBT: Greece and Celts peace. Renew Incence with Greece. India declares on Persia. Greece declares vrs Ottomans. Germany declares vrs Ottomans. (Can you say death knell)

1824AD -
IBT- renew ROP with Rome to protect them. Think of killing them myself, but decide not to. Discover Flight and enter MA. Start Computers.

1826AD - IBT - Greece Declares on Persia
1828AD - IBT - Persia destroys India, Scan and Greece MA vrs Ottomans
1830AD - IBT - Renew Silk trade with celts
1832AD - IBT - Germand demand Free Artistry + 100g + T Map give it. Persia nd Celts make peace, ottomans and persia make peace. Renew selling spices.
1834AD - IBT: Rome and Ottomans MA vrs Germany. Renew Dyes.
1836AD - zzz
1838AD - zzz
1840AD - zzz
1842AD - IBT - Don't renew selling Ivory to Greece.
1844AD - zzz
1846AD - IBT - Discover Computers -> Fusion Continue Gems with ottomans, F1 to build Research Lab in Utica
1848AD - Switch Utica to production. If I had done the math I would not have bothered since at 80 spt we won't finish before the end.
1850AD - Rush the rest of the Research labs.
1852AD - IBT - Celts destroy Germans
1854AD - IBT - Rome and Persia make peace
1856AD - Start to reirrigate Utica as I realize my mistake.
1858AD - zzz
1860AD - zzz
1862AD - zzz IBT - Trade coal to greece for incense + 244g
1864AD - zzz IBT - renew ROP with Rome
1866AD - 19954 culture.
1868AD - Cultural Victory in 41 hours, 29 minutes, 19 seconds.
End Splash
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=74721&stc=1

End Mini Map
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=74722&stc=1

End Culture Graph
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=74723&stc=1

Final Utica Culture 20071.
[dance]
:bounce:

One of us should think about writing up a summary for the end game thread. If noone else wants to, I will do it.

Edit: Curse it, I can't get the images to display right now. It is late, so I'll figure it out tomorrow.

Thanks for finishing it up.:)

If you want to write the end summary, go ahead. If not, I'll do it, since chunkymonkey did the work the first time. Just let me know.

I'll do the summary. I hope I can do it tonight, but it may be a little longer.

Yay! :)

Well done jeff :thumbsup:

As the submission graph stands now, we have the highest Firaxis score. Awesome! Shame this doesn't mean anything :(

I predict we'll be mid-tablish. Before AlanH changed the submission page it looked like there were a couple of conquest and a couple of 20K victories that were better than ours.

Thanks for this game guys. Being my first succession game, i've learnt an awful lot from you, and I had fun too. Good luck to you two for SGOTM5. I hope you don't mind if I lurk now and again just to see how you're doing.

I predict we'll be mid-tablish. Before AlanH changed the submission page it looked like there were a couple of conquest and a couple of 20K victories that were better than ours.

I agree with your analysis completely. I didn't realize the final info wouldn't show in the Graph, otherwise I'd have saved the "submission" info which stated our final Jason score. :( sorry.


Thanks for this game guys. Being my first succession game, i've learnt an awful lot from you, and I had fun too. .
It has been an honor playing with you too. The whole was definately better than the sum of the parts.
I know we didn't get any of the laurels, but I am still very pleased with the job we did.

Good luck to you two for SGOTM5. I hope you don't mind if I lurk now and again just to see how you're doing.
Of course I don't mind. Wish you were with us. Maybe you'll have more free time when SGOTM6 rolls around.

As the submission graph stands now, we have the highest Firaxis score. Awesome! Shame this doesn't mean anything :(

Yeah, but it's still cool!

I predict we'll be mid-tablish. Before AlanH changed the submission page it looked like there were a couple of conquest and a couple of 20K victories that were better than ours.

I think you are right (although they might be diplomatic victories). As I'm used to the bottom of the pile, being in the middle of the pack is pretty good. ;) Luckily fun doesn't distribute itself according to score.


Thanks for this game guys. Being my first succession game, i've learnt an awful lot from you, and I had fun too. Good luck to you two for SGOTM5. I hope you don't mind if I lurk now and again just to see how you're doing.

This was my first succession game, too, and it was a really great experience. I appreciate the insights you've both given me.

Lurk all you want. Lots of tundra and a conquest variant should be interesting for us.

Let me know what you think. I went a bit overboard and turned it into a creative writing project.


Team jeffelammar - End Game Spoiler

Goal For what it is worth we were still going for 20K.

Short Summary of Ancient Ages
When last we left our intrepid Carthaginian Warriors, they had subdued
Rome and were settling in for a serious Middle Ages wonder push in
Utica, a city already envied thoughout the world. As we entered the
Middle Ages we were wrapping up work on some upside down gardens that
were sure to spread the fame of Utica even farther.

The Middle Ages
The Carthagininan people loved their city of Utica, but continued to
scream for more more. Their brave leading council could not provide
enough to satisify them. Cathedrals and Universities for all were not
enough to slow the cries from the people. Apparently they wanted to
make sure that there was lots of land outside the cities so they could
hunt, fish and frollic through the wilderness.

To support these wishes a large force of Roman and Persian slaves
began building a road network through all of the land that was
culturally bound to the Carthaginian people.

Meanwhile the mad artisans of Utica continued to come up with truely
outragous ideas. Their ideas were often a ways ahead of their
time. There was a constant stream of requests to the Council of Three
to request that the science council discover how to do all sorts of
things. The council was loathe to devote funding to all of this due to
their possession of a Great Library, but they reluctantly acceded when
it became obvious that the rest of the world was too slow to figure
out anything. After building their nifty upside down gardens the
craftsmen of Utica began work on some sort of academy of war. They
assured us that as it neared completion they would re-fit it into a
great religious icon.

We were hoping that someone out in the world would figure out how to make
these large religious artifices, but they were too busy working on
ways to design new things and on trying to figure out how to collect
books. So in 630 AD the Ruling Counsil traded for Monotheism and
switched the researchers into overdrive trying to figure out how to
better organize our religion. While the other nations of the world
struggled to learn warrior skills, the Carthaginians raced through a
much more enlightened path, learning about religion, how to band a
bunch of their young folk together to teach them stuff. Then it was on
to some mumbo jumbo about stars and getting places. Then the
econmists took over and it was time to invent a big place for storing
our gold. After that we took some time to formalize the process of
putting notes on paper so our priests could reproduce the hymns of
Carthaginian joy.

In 590 AD workers in Leptis Minor (near the ruins of Rome) completed a
new palace, giving a large boost to the overall Carthiginian
economy. A Utican visitor inspired these folks to create a workshop
for designing efficient upgrades, but he soon returned to Utica to
continue the mad invention of nifty new buildings. Later another
Utican madman would visit and inspire them to create a trade center
named after some guy named Smith.

Meanwhile the artisans in Utica kept building amazing things. They
built a big Chapel with a nifty painting on the ceiling in 700AD,
followed immediately by a Cathedral and shortly thereafter by a place
for young learners to congregate and consume fermented beverages. Then
they devised a place to put a big metal tube that makes far away
things look closer. Next it was on to a large building that could
house a big organ that we were assured could be used to play fugues
and other pieces of music. Then it was on to a big place for people to
sit and watch something called a play. And to cap off the Middle
Ages some guy had an apple drop on his head and it inspired the crazed
madmen in Utica to build an extra booze distribution (oh yeah and
learning) center and the drunken students on a lark built a special
ship that would circle the world.

The scientists discovered that some metals attracted others in 1395
and dragged the Carthaginians into an era of machines and
pollution. The soothsayers reported that in other parallel universes,
the people had done these things hundreds of years earlier, but this
did not deter the celebrations in the one true world.


Industrial Age
Utican craftsmen began to have less ideas on new things about this
time, but they did have a few more things planned. In 1520 they build
a big shiny factory, followed immediately by a big tall tower for
burning coal. They then started on a big campaign to convince the
Ruling Council to let everyone have a say in the running of the
Nation. Yes even the dust mites wanted their say. In 1580 the
suffering movement succeeded and contruction was started on a boat to
go to some place called the Galapagos Islands. The boat returned with
knowledge of something called evolution in 1625AD. The Craftsmen of
Utica then turned to developing a huge place to trade ownership in
various corporations. Then they built a place to coordinate the stock
exchanges in other cites. After that it was on to developing a mobile
medical team and a spy academy.

Meanwhile a Utican madman visited Leptis Minor again and told them to
build a big dam across the river there. Soon the Coal Plants were
replaced by nice clean hydroelectric power.

A distressing statistic began to be kept by the ruling council in the
middle ages. After many wars throughout the middle ages and early
industrial ages no single warrior had stepped forward as a brilliant
mind. The Council started keeping track of the number of units that
had trained leaders, and who won victories. After starting to keep
track, it was about 30 victories without a special guy showing
up. This was after almost 2000 years prior without one. Finally in
1730 AD Council Member ChunkyMonkey sent a cavalry against a Persian
Cavalry and Mago showed up. Immediately he formed an army and kicked
another Persian's butt.

The Utican madmen immediately started work on a statue to commemerate
Mago's prowess, finishing it in 1745 and then beginning work on a
place to train soldiers to work together.

After this, the Carthiginian economy was switched from production to
food. All resources were used to produce food so there would be more
people to frollic in the wilderness. Spending was switched to
concentrate more on throwing parties rather than trying to actually
learn stuff. Enough was spent on research however that in 1824 it was
reported that testing had discovered a device called an
airplane. Given the small size of the empire and the solid Railroad
network, it was deemed unnecessary to build any of these, but the
population decided to party hard anyway.

Modern Ages
Word had spread that very soon Utica would become so impressive that
the rest of the world would bow down and acknowledge the superior
genetic code that infused the Carthaginians, but the ruling council
decided that they would learn how to make giant calculators that would
allow the people to waste hours playing some thing called a "computer
game". Utica quickly built a lab to design newer and better versions
of something called Civilization and all useful activity in the city
ended.
Luckilly they were able to distribute copies of Civilization
throughout the world in 1866-1868 thus finally convincing the rest of
the world of their superiority. The rest of the world ground to a
halt, leaving Utica standing supreme.

While we were not super fast, I have to say that we controlled the
tech race and managed the AIs better than I could have hoped. It was
fun and all of us learned from the others.

Cultural Victory in the 1866-1868 IBT
Final Utica Culture: 20071

Culture - Year - Building
1318 - 1870 BC - Temple
2320 - 950 BC - Oracle
2814 - 110 BC - Great Library
920 - 50 BC - Forbidden Palace
840 - 70 AD - Library
824 - 270 AD - Collesium
1468 - 420 AD - Hanging Gardens
1698 - 700 AD - Sistine Chapel
840 - 710 AD - Cathedral
1048 - 760 AD - University
784 - 880 AD - Copernicus Observatory
1044 - 1100 AD - JS Bach's Cathedral
1248 - 1265 AD - Shakespeare's Theater
822 - 1360 AD - Newton's University
354 - 1455 AD - Magellan's Voyage
372 - 1580 AD - Universal Sufferage
252 - 1625 AD - Theory of Evolution
158 - 1650 AD - Wall Street
72 - 1685 AD - Battlefield Medicine
67 - 1710 AD - Intellegence Agency
244 - 1740 AD - Heroic Epic
56 - 1756 AD - Military Academy
22 - 1846 AD - Research Lab

Awesome :thumbsup: I bet you had fun writing that!

That is an entertaining summary. Thanks, jeff.

Very nice. :thumbsup:
Good game guys. :)