SGOTM4 - Game Thread.

Hi everyone, and welcome to your game thread.

Here is the start position.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4.jpg

Note: EVERYONE has to install the correct resource graphics whether or not they have played this scenario or GOTM before. If you haven't done it yet, you had better get a wriggle on.

The saves will be available once the timelock has been released tonight (19th September).

Here are some links you might find useful.

The original GOTM28 Announcement. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/gotm28_india.shtml)
The Draft Constitution (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1733966&postcount=61)
The GOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=71788)
SGOTM4 - Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=100194)
Download latest Save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php)
Upload a Save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm.php)

This Months' sponsored variant is 5 City Challenge the rules for which are as follows.

1. You may not end a turn with more than 5 cities.

Team Leaders: It would be a good idea to PM your team mates to get them all checked in here as soon as is possible. ;)

Good luck everyone! :)

Hello, team Peanut! A warm welcome to Mathilda :) Too bad Bigchief has so much going on... maybe he can join us again later in the game.

I know Keith wanted to lead us off with the first set of turns on this one and I'm all for it. Suggestions for the play order? Also has everyone loaded the necessary resource files and tested them out?

And finally opening moves. Looking at the start position I'm tempted to send the worker to the mountain to have a look around. If nothing else looks good from there I would say send the settler to the grass alongside the river NE. Any other thoughts?

Edit: In regards to the new resources, I think I've only played one game using them and it's been a while. I remember irrigating goats on plains for bonus food, mining olives in desert. Am I remembering this correctly?

civ_steve checking in, and Greetings to Mathilda! :wavey: I think Keith starting would be great! This GOTM was fairly recent so there's a lot of the play that is still somewhat fresh in my mind; however, you can't tell how much MB might have changed things.

Keith: assuming your start, check out the square 2 spaces SE; from the former prediscussion people felt there was a Cow there (IIRC). If something seems to be there, it's worth moving the Settler either E or SE to see; if it is a Cow, whatever is over the Mountains is of no major consequence and the worker should move over to help improve near the Cow first. OTOH, playing 5CC, it may be worthwhile to scout for a couple of turns anyway to be sure of a good first position, or we can take the best initial position and move later if a much better position shows up.

I'm unsure how much I can be involved this upcoming week, so going last is good for me.

-----------------------------------------
Links to Turn Logs:

Turn set 1, Keith Larson 4000 to 3050 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2197055&postcount=14) - Carthage founded on turn 4; Coastal, on River, with 2 Cows in Radius. Builds: 3 Warriors for scouting, start on Settler. Research Writing at Minimum
3050 Screenshot (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2197564&postcount=24)
3050 Screenshot with Proposed City Sites (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2198728&postcount=29)

Turn set 2, Peanut 3000 to 2590 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2204792&postcount=41) - Utica_temporary founded; Contact with Rome - Trade Masonry for BronzeWorking +5 Gold; another Settler from Carthage heading towards Site 3. 14 more turns for Writing
2590 BC, Revised Proposed City Site Screenshot (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2207685&postcount=47)

Turn set 3, Mathilda 2550 to 2190 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2210907&postcount=52) Spices connected; Leptis Magna founded at Site 3; Utica builds a Barracks.

Turn set 4, civ_steve 2150 BC to 1750 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2211242&postcount=55) Writing is learned, traded Writing and 44 Gold to Rome for Iron-Working and Pottery. Map-Making begun at Maximum. Settler on way to Site 4.

Turn set 5, Keith Larson 1725 to 1500 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2217000&postcount=65) Theveste is founded at Site 4; Barb activities; Buy Roman Worker for 110 Gold

Turn set 6, Peanut 1475 to 1250 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2225620&postcount=78) Finish Colossus in Carthage, Learn Map-Making, Ceasar also learns it so no trade; Found Numero del Uno B at Site 1B

Turn set 7, Mathilda 1225 BC to 1000 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2228947&postcount=89) First Galleys, Contact with Persia; Trade Map-Making to Xerxes for Warrior Code, Ceremonial Burial and 12 Gold; Ceasar demands CerBur, which we give him; Learn Literature; trade Lit to Xerxes for Myst and 32 Gold; trade Lit to Ceasar for Wheel and 132 Gold; trade Myst and 50 Gold to Ceasar for HorseBackRiding

Turn set 8, Keith Larson 975 to 750 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2232094&postcount=92) Libraries being built; Learn Code of Laws; Learn Philosophy; Ceasar moves in on Theveste and declares war!

Turn set 9, Peanut 730 to 550 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2242361&postcount=100) Researching Republic; War against Rome continues; GA started; One new Roman city in North razed; NumMerc stands on Roman Iron, one Legion visible in Rome

Turn set 10, Mathilda 530 to 350 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2245466&postcount=109) Roman Iron pillaged; Pompeii razed; Great Lighthouse finished; Republic Learned, 1 turn of Anarchy !!!; Rome captured with Great Library; Peace with Rome gains 3 Towns; FP started in Leptis Magna; Utica_temporary and 3 Roman Towns Abandoned to get down to 5 cities

Turn set 11, civ_steve 330 to 150 BC (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2246478&postcount=119) Learn Math; Contact made with India; Wool and Ivory colonies formed; Iron connected and Swords upgraded; Forbidden Palace completed in Leptis Magnus; Learn Currency

Turn set 12, Keith Larson 130 BC to 70 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2248611&postcount=127) Make contacts with Celts, Vikings, Babylonians, Ottomans and Greeks; Get Free Monachy and Construction from GreatLib (formerly Roman); Gift or Trade Scientic Civs into MidAges (Babylon doesn't get a Free Tech; Ottomans, Persians and Greeks gain Feudalism and so do we (GreatLib)); redeclare on Rome; Abandon Rome after forming Settler (bye-bye Great Library); Found Leptis Minor near Southern Wools, future Palace location

Turn set 13, Peglegasus 90 to 260 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2253332&postcount=140) Contact Germany (all contacts made); Found Rusicade at Site 6 (Abandon NUdB); Gift Germany to MidAges, they get Engineering; Trade Lit and Rep for Eng; Trade Eng to Xerxes for Horses, Furs and gold; Lose Rusicade to Romans; Take Lutetia; Lose Ivory colony to Barbs; India city take Spices; Trade Wool to Persia for Spice; reform Ivory Colony

Turn set 14, Mathilda 270 to 360 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2255433&postcount=149) Peace with Rome for 3 Gold, 3 cities and 5 Workers; gift cities back to Rome; Marketplaces springing up; Theveste starts pre-build for Sistine Chapel; Learn Mono, trade to those with Gold and gpt; Theo due in 9

Turn set 15, civ_steve 370 to 460 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2257626&postcount=157) Learn Theology, start on Education (10 turns, initially); connecting more Ivory; renew Furs and Spices deals with Persia; 9 more turns for Palace in Leptis Minor; 23 turns for Sistine Chapel in Theveste; Carthage starts pre-build for Copernicus' Observatory

Turn set 16, Keith Larson 470 to 560 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2266489&postcount=172) Lose Ivory to India, and recolonize; Learn Education; start building Universities; Palace is completed in Leptis Minor on the Southern Wools; Trade Wool to India for 60 Gold and Horses

Turn set 17, Mathilda 570 to 660 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2267958&postcount=181) Trade Theology around, get Invention, Gold and gpt; Gift/Trade Invention around; Learn Astronomy, pre-build in Carthage set to Copernicus' Observatory; limited Trading of Education; buy Furs from Persia for 7 gpt; Learn Navigation; trade WM for WMs, Gold, Gpt and Luxuries; we are up to 7 Luxuries

Turn set 18, civ_steve 670 to 760 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2270133&postcount=183) Gift Trade Mono, Theo, Education, and Wools to everyone (except Rome); form all Embassies (except Rome); Renew Spice for Wool with Persia (throw in 105 Gold); Finish Copernicus' Obs in Carthage, start pre-build for Newton's; Trade Astronomy and 480 Gold for Gunpowder from Xerxes; Gift/Trade Astronomy and Gunpowder around; Finish Sistine Chapel in Theveste; Learn Chemistry; Trade Chemistry for Chivalry with Xerxes; Trade/Gift Chemistry and Chivalry to everyone (except Rome :) ); Upgrade 9 Horsemen to Knights

Turn set 19, Keith Larson 770 to 860 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2274439&postcount=191) Learn Physics; trade Nav to India for Banking, Furs and Horses, WM&Gold, and to Persia for WM&Gold; Trade Banking to other civs for WM&Gold; Sell WM for Gold; Persia attacks India; Learn TofG, switch Carthage to Newton's; Trade Nav to other civs to renew Luxury Deals; trade Physics for PrintingPress

Turn set 20, Peglegasus 870 to 950 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2279034&postcount=200) Renew Spice for Wool deal with Persia; Finish Newton's Univ; Trade Physics to Greece for MusicTheory, LMinor starts JS Bach's; Learn Metallurgy and enter the Industrial Age; Trade Metallurgy to Persia for Democracy; gift Scientific Civs into IA; 3 get Medicine, 1 Gets Steam Power; Trade Music Theory and Democracy to Germany for Medicine

Turn set 21, Mathilda 960 to 1050 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2280615&postcount=206) Buy Steam Power from Persia for 2000+ Gold and a few other sundries; Trade Steam Power for WM&Gold; Ottomans ally with Persia against India; Trade Wool to Germany; Greece allies w/Persia vs India; Persia builds Magellan's; Learn Sanitation; DoW against India; Persia, Greece and Babylon ally vs Celts; Trade Democracy for Economics with Celts; Trade Econ to Persia for Horses, WM&Gold, and to the Others for WM&G; Clear the last Indian Town from our Continent (restoring Spice control); Railroads are being built

Turn set 22, civ_steve 1060 to 1150 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2282035&postcount=210) Trade Sanitation around for Luxuries and Alliances vs India; Gift extra Luxuries; LMinor completes JS Bach's; DoW on Rome; Raze Byzantium (gaining 2nd coal source); Learn Industrialism; switch Hospital builds to Factory; Raze Neapolis; Railroad lots more, build up Workers, finish Factories, Hospital's and Oea starts on Smith's

Turn set 23, Keith Larson 1160 to 1250 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2283995&postcount=213) Learn Electricity; Trade Electricity and Industrialism to Persia for Nationalism; Trade Nationalism to Ottomans for FreeArtistry and MilitaryTradition; Trade Nationalism and Electricity around for Gold and gpt; Learn Corporation; Renew Horses and Luxuries Trade; Persia destroys India

Turn set 24, Peanut 1255 to 1300 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2287113&postcount=219) Carthage pumping out Workers for Joining; Oea completes Universal Suffrage; First and Only Great Leader is created; Learn Refining; Oil in the North to Colonize; lots of Carthage Units lining the Northern Coast to prevent interlopers

Turn set 25, Peglegasus 1305 to 1350 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2290950&postcount=226) Learn Steel; Trade Refining and Steel to Persia for Communism and Replaceable Parts; Leptis Magna completes Battlefield Medicine; Renew Furs deal

Turn set 26, Mathilda 1355 to 1400 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2291460&postcount=228) Learn Combustion; Leptis Minor completes Wall Street; Trade Combustion to Persia for Scientific Method; Trade Combustion to Ottomans for Espionage; Trade Comb around for Gold; Renew Luxury deals; Learn Flight

Turn set 27, civ_steve 1405 to 1450 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2295361&postcount=233) Trade Flight to Persia for Atomic Theory; Investigate cities building TofE - fastest AI is 17 turns; Renew Luxury deals

Turn set 28, Keith Larson 1455 to 1500 AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2297914&postcount=236) Buy Electronics from Persia for Ivory, WM, 15 Gold and 19 gpt; Renew Luxuries; Learn MassProduction; Leptis Magna completes Theory of Evolution; Learn Radio and Motorized Transport; Enter the Modern Era ; Trade and Gift Techs; Greece gets Ecology; Germany, Persia and Ottomans get Rocketry

Hello team!:salute:

Yes, you have a new team member.
And lucky me, what a team! :cool:
When you are planning the roster, please take into account that I'm in Europe and at work during the day.
Just to let you know, I've been playing civ for bit over a year now.
I said in the sign up that I'm comfortable with monarch, and that is the level I've been playing for about 8 months now- yes winning :)
I've just had my first victory at emperor, but that was as Chinese, my favourite civ, as warmongering seems to come to me most naturally.
Looking forward to this.
M

Welcome Mathilda. I am reposting some of the thoughts I just posted on the old thread. It looks like Civ-steve and I are on the same wave link. Here is some of what I posted:

I think we can count of the map being altered, so it would be dangerous to base our opening move on the old map. Because the river terminates at the mountain I don’t think a worker move up that mountain is not a good idea. The only tile we would want to move to in that direction is the one directly north. My gut feeling is much better possibilities lay to the east along the river. Settling one tile to the east looks like it would be a good possibility. We would only temporarily lose the shield of BG and long term we will gain bonus gold from having more tile next to a river. With only five cities we will be at size 7 very quickly.

I am assuming that a granary will be little use to us, but an ultra early temple is very tempting. Any thought on this from the rest of you?

My gut feeling is much better possibilities lay to the east along the river. Settling one tile to the east looks like it would be a good possibility. We would only temporarily lose the shield of BG and long term we will gain bonus gold from having more tile next to a river. With only five cities we will be at size 7 very quickly.

I am assuming that a granary will be little use to us, but an ultra early temple is very tempting. Any thought on this from the rest of you?

Sounds good, Keith. How early a temple are you thinking about? Like warrior, warrior(scouts), warrior(MP), temple? By the time the temple is done we should have a good spot picked out for city #2.

How early? With a BG 5 turns for a warrior (scout), 5 turns on the temple and then pop rush it. This gives lots of culture fast, but slows down on exploration and scouting. If we were going for a 20K victory (which we are not) this would be a very attactive move, I only ask to see if this would be a move that would help us in our other objectives. I don't think it will hurt us in the expansion too much and in GOTM they tend to remove a lot of the goody huts so the need to get warriors out their scouting is not so pressing. In the current GOTM I built a grainary after only one warrior and it is paying off big time I am REXing at a blinding pace.

Goody huts aren't an issue, I know, but shouldn't we be scouting for nearby luxuries and such that we may want to try and grab? How about 1 warrior to scout with, 1 garrisoned for defense/MP, then temple?

Peglegasus,
The second warrior is a waste of time and shields if it is not being used as a scout. The AI never attacks this early and the barbs are a few turns away. Since we are pop rushing the temple 2nd warrior is only five additional turns away. There is no question about how to do an ultra early temple rush, but if. One of the advantages of a rapidly expanding cultural ratius is a wider spacing of cities. I am thinking of 2 or 3 core cities with the others being nomatic, moving out as the cores cities culture expands.

Welcome back my fellow Generals, and a special welcome to you Mathilda. Good to have some timezone diversity (I am Brisbane, Australia at UT+10 hours).

Are you familiar with the protocol ? If you read over the first page or so of our team's SGOTM3 and SGOTM2 threads you should pick up things quickly. In a nutshell (... sorry ...) you post a "got-it" or a "please pass" within about 24 hours of the baton being passed to you in this thread. You then have around 72 hours to play & post. Use the links in MB's first post above to save a game and get the current save. Please ask if you have any questions, no matter how silly the question may be (you would have to try hard to top some of my dopey queries).

My gut feeling is that we need to get our cities planted early to get maximum territory and put our foot on resources & luxuries. The wider spacing the better, perhaps 6 tiles or more ? This may be more important than culture.

What should we aim for ? With 5 cities Domination could be a bit tricky, and conquest a really really big challenge. Histo is too dull, space could get a little tedious unless our challenge is to kick AI research along as fast as possible. So how about a diplo win as fast as possible ? We will also need to orchestrate fast research, as well as juggling AI attitudes. Opinions ?

Let's have a bit more debate on strategy & objectives before we get too far in. Mr. Larson, the captain's chair is yours.

Roster suggestion ...
Keith Larson <-- UP
Peanut
Peglegasus
Mathilda
Civ-Steve

If bigchief can join us then we can shoehorn him in.

I'm not sure I understand the need for the early temple. As our Capital, the first city will expand in 10 turns naturally, so there is no need to build a cultural building to make the surrounded spaces available to the city. I think it's also a bad idea to pop-rush before having luxuries connected, although pop-rushing a Temple self-corrects the unhappiness aspect of pop-rushing.

Our very first priority is finding the next set of city sites, locating whatever Luxuries are available so we can claim them, and finding other civs. To that end we should build 3 Warriors for scouting, then a Settler. IMO, getting the 2nd city founded is more important than building an early Temple. (However, cities 2-5 should probably pop-rush a Temple fairly early.)

I think we may still want a Granary in a city with a good food bonus. Faster Growth and Development is always desirable; getting lots of Workers out quickly to develop our cities will allow them to grow rapidly. Joining Workers to cities is acceptable as long as you don't use them to immediately pop-rush a build, so having one city crank our Workers which do some improvements then get joined to a city builds our empire much faster.

The original position for India in this GOTM had very few resources or Luxuries available; 5CC will be a challenge even if MB does no mods to the game. Commerce and trade are our main tools. One of our cities should be set up as a Super Science City; it needs to be coastal, and we'll want to build the Colossus, and later Copernicus' Obs and Newton's Univ (and Seti) in this city. A Tech Lead will give us good trading for Resources; also, as 5CC we should get resources fairly cheaply.

I have no doubt that Republic is the Government we should be in (maybe Democracy later on); we will need every Commerce point we can get. Therefore I think our research should focus on going up the Writing/CodeofLaws/Philosophy/Republic path. Writing can probably be done on Minimum; by the time its been learned we should be developed enough to learn the rest at Maximum, and these Techs will give us good trading for the other lower tier Techs once we have contacts. We do need BronzeWorking for the Colossus, and if we do build a Granary we will need Pottery. And we may want Map-Making if we appear to have no or few neighbors. Hopefully we will be able to pick these Techs up through Trades allowing us to get to Republic as fast as possible; if not, our more developed civ will research them quickly.

I agree with Keith that down the river is more likely to pay off for us initially, and I think it's worth using a couple of turns to find the best location for the capital. To recap the rest of my recommendations: research Writing at Minimum (aiming for Republic government), build 3 Warriors for scouting, then a Settler for 2nd city. The rest is more distant discussion.

Peanut: I've just seen your post. At the end of the SGOTM3, Keith, Peglegasus and I discussed some victory objectives for this SGOTM. I favor pursuing Space, with a diplo end as an option. Your roster is fine IMO.

Well, Team, I just loaded the game to take a look at the starting position and there's a BIG surprise. We're playing the latest Indian GOTM as the Carthaginians!! It appears to be the same initial position, and we're wearing the Indian Purple, but it shows up as Carthage. I checked F6, and we've exchanged knowledge of Ceremonial Burial for Masonry. So early Temples are out of the question!

The level is Monarch, which is good news; 2 content citizens before unhappiness occurs and the AI doesn't have much of a build or research advantage over us. In the Original GOTM Persia was our only nearby civ; I wouldn't bet on that here, or that we're even on the original starting landmass so we need to be on our toes and post often and generate a lot of discussion. From the F10 screen, the original set of civs appears to be the same: Carthage (us), India, Greeks, Ottomans, Romans, Babylonians, Persians, Vikings, Celts and Germans. That means 5 Scientific civs (before modding of course), so we may get plenty of assistance in a Space Race.

There are 4 Religious civs, so we have a decent chance of trading for Ceremonial Burial; Temples would be nice for the extra content person they allow, but Literature and Libraries might be a better way to expand Culture since I think research will be very important for our game. There is only 1 Expansionistic civ, so if we want a Granary (I think we do if we have a close-by food bonus), we should research it early.

I'm still inclined to research Writing at Minimum, but if we have a food bonus doing a Maximum research of Pottery followed by Writing works also. For builds we should do 3 Warriors and a Settler, and let's see who's out there with us and what they know; and I would still recommend spending a couple of turns to completely map out our first site before settling, with only 5 cities I'd hate for a really good tile to be just out of reach. Since we're playing 5CC, I think we have to discuss the future city sites thoroughly before founding them so let's see where these sites might be!

(Edit - thinking about Wonders and Golden Ages; Commercial and Industrious traits; Great Wall and Hanging Gardens are Industrious, but next one is Hoover's Dam. Hanging Gardens is also nice with it's extra happiness; more useful people which is good for 5CC. Colossus is really nice (and works all the way up to flight), but coupled with Hanging Gardens would trigger GA in early to mid Middle Ages - allows Cathedrals and Universities to be built quickly and quick expansion to size 12. Hanging Gardens with Smith's Trading Center gets us an early Industrial Age GA - faster research of early IA Techs and probably guarantee Theory of Evolution (well, we'll probably get it anyway, kind of have to.) Colossus with Hoover's Dam is a late Industrial Age GA - extra research power entering the Modern Era, which might be the difference between dictating the Space Race or even competing in it. Prefer not to use NumMercs for GA (prefer not to war much at all). Not sure which way to go so I thought I'd throw these options out there.)

I saw a post somewhere...the maintenance thread maybe, that EVERY team is trying the variant. If that is the case we may want to consider going for diplo as it is faster than space. Civ_Steve is the expert on fast diplo wins ;) so we have an edge there. I've done some diplo games that were in very difficult circumstances, too.

On seeing the pros and cons of the early temple my vote is against it if it has to be pop rushed. If we hand build one when the capital is at size 3 or so it should go really quick.

Edit: Carthage!? Wow, I love it! One of my favorite civs.

Pre-turn:
Well this is interesting. I guess the key word in the announcement thread was BASED in GOTM 28.

IBT:
NA.

Turn 1: 4000 BC
Since we plan to settle on the river anyway I will move the settler first. Settler goes E down the river and discovers a cow and coast. Looks like was have found the sight for our super science city. The cow is two tiles directly SE and is a coastal tile. NE of this tile is a BG coastal with the river on the NE. The next tile NE is woods. Now the question before us is settle the BG or the woods? I am going to move the worker S to see if there is anything good beyond the cow. Next turn I will move the settler NE to check out if there is anything good that direction. From that tile it can move to either the coastal BG or the coastal woods. I move the worker S, he discovers hills and mountains to the W and another river to the S.

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 2: 3950 BC
Rename the worker to Worker1 and he moves to cow. The settler moves NE and bingo! He discovers a cow to the N, BG to the NE and another BG to the E. Just beyond them are two hills and one woods. It looks like the woods will be the city sight. With two cows we can set up a settler factory by mining one and irrigating the other. So here is my worker plan. Road the cattle tile, move N and road the BG (this get more gold flowing into the coffers), move back to the cattle and mine. Mover across the river and irrigate grass, move to second cattle and irrigate and road.

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 3: 3900 BC
Worker 1 road on cattle and settler moves to coastal woods.

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 4: 3850 BC
Carthage is founded and starts warrior. I start researching writing a min.

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 5: 3800 BC
Worker1 moves to BG which is W of Carthage.

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 6: 3750 BC
Worker1 starts road.

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 7 3700 BC
Nothing.

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 8 3650 BC
Road completed and we are now at +4 gold per turn. Worker1 moves to cattle and start mining.

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 9: 3600 BC
Carthage completes warrior and starts another. Rename warrior “Scout1”. I am going to start this warrior off in a Westerly direction and the second and the third N and S.

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 10: 3550 BC
Nothing new.

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 11: 3500 BC
Worker1 completes mine and crosses river to get water to the second cow. Scout1 moves to mountain and sees 3 Spices to the N.

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 12: 3450 BC
Worker1 starts irrigating. Scout1 see a large body of water directly W. I will continue the original plan and see if that is a lake or ocean. If it is a lake it will be an excellent 2nd city site.

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 13: 3400 BC
Scout1 moves W and is disappointed to learn that the water is salty.

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 14: 3350 BC
Carthage completes warrior, I rename him “Scout2” and start another. Scout1 will now head S, while the new Scout2 will check out the North country. Worker1 moves to the 2nd cow.

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 15: 3300 BC
Scout2 discovers more BG and a whale north of Carthage. Worker1 will road first, then irrigate because the extra food will be wasted this time around. Scout1 looks to be entering mountainous terrain. The south does not look too promising so far.

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 16: 3250 BC
Nothing new.

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 17: 3200 BC
Carthage completes third warrior, starts settler. Worker1 starts irrigating. Scout2 continues N and see in the distance more coastland. Scout1 moves SE and discovers that the land around the river SW of Carthage is nothing to write home about. The new warrior I rename Scout3 and will send him S to join Scout1 in his duties. It looks like Scout2 can finish up the N all by himself.

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 18: 3150 BC
Scout1 finds more mountains!

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 19: 3100 BC
Worker completes irrigation and moves SE to start mine/road. We will complete settle and grow in 4 turns. Perfect timing! Lux slider moves up to keep citizens happy. We are now at +5 gold!

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 20: 3050 BC
Worker1 starts road rather than mine so the newly created settler can move more quickly. We don’t need that extra shield right now anyway.

Post move:
When you look at the save you will see that we are confined to a pretty small space ocean to the W and E. Snow to the north and mountains to the S. Scout2’s next three moves will give us some much need information about where the next city should go. Other than the spices themselves the NW does not offer as many BG as a northern city or a river location to the S. I Carthage is going to get the Colossus we will need to start soon, but this would take out a perfect settler/worker factory. My vote is that our second city plays this role and starts as soon as it builds a warrior or two.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_BC3050_01.SAV

I hate MS Paint. Is there a program you guys are using for screen shots?

It is good to see Peanut way ahead of the pack. Of course we are the only team that has posted!

On second though Carthage may not be such a bad city to build the Colossus. The rapid growth rate of Carthage can be leveraged for high shield production, which means a relatively quick build for the Colossus. It looks like we have no near neighbors and that only to the south, so we don't have to worry about losing city locations. I would like to hear from Civ-steve on this one as he is the best play amoung us.

Sounds like you found a great spot, Keith! Nice work. I think that is probably the perfect spot for the Colossus if we want to build it. I would say bust out 2 settlers and then start the Pyramids as pre-build. 2nd and 3rd cities can build the MP's for Carthage (Carthage will grow real quick with those cattle!) and some workers and we'll be well on our way.

Edit: perhaps Carthage will grow so fast as to need MP's before the other towns can get them over there. Maybe bust out the 2 settlers, an MP, then start Colossus?

Guys, you are fast.
I didn't even get a word in and you've already played the first turns.
(I'm not complaining, I like things moving on.)
I didn't play the original, so obviousky don't know this, but looking at Keith's save it could be an island? Keith, what makes you think we have neighbours to the south?
As to where to go from here, I don't quite see the point of a granary since we are not going to be expanding past five cities. Carthage looks like it will be growing to twelve before we can get enough things to keep that many people happy anyway, so using shields to make that happen even quicker doesn't appeal to me.
Need for the amount of military is obviously going to be determined when we find out who can we reach in the AA.
Are we at the moment decided on the victory condition that we are going for?
Diplomacy isn't my forte, so on the one hand I'd vote for space, but then I'm here to learn new things, so diplo would definately be intresting.
Not that I could really see why we couldn't keep both options open for the time being.

Oh and peanut, thanks for all the encouragement, I was trying to think of a silly question and all I could come up with was this:
Us being the team Peanut, are you the captain or the team mascot ;) ?
Not very good I know, I'll have to try harder.

Oh - and if the ideas I come up with are completely idiotic, just tell me to shut up - I can take it. Don't promise to shut up though.
M

Are we at the moment decided on the victory condition that we are going for?
Diplomacy isn't my forte, so on the one hand I'd vote for space, but then I'm here to learn new things, so diplo would definately be intresting.
Not that I could really see why we couldn't keep both options open for the time being.

That's exactly the plan. We're going for space or possibly diplo. We'll have to see how it plays out. Team Peanut got the gold laurel in SGOTM2 for a fast diplo win so we've been discussing space to do something different.

I see Team Smackster is off to another strong start! 3000BC with 64 points. Only the two of us on the graph so far

Excellent start, Keith! I recalled there being 2 Cows in GOTM28, and I'm glad to see they're still there and you got them both within Carthage's radius!

I still favor building a Granary in Carthage; even though we're not churning out Settlers, we can still churn out 2 turn Workers which will develop and grow our other cities far faster than the 10 turns a city without a food bonus would need to grow. A granary would come later if at all; certainly after we've founded the next city or two.

The terrain revealed so far seems very similar to the original GOTM; we might be at the original site. I can't load the save to see what things look like until tonight when I get home.

Carthage would probably be a good Colossus city, but we also need it for growth first, so that decision is a little ways off. Building Colossus aims us to an early or late GA based on Wonder builds.

Keith: I use Paint to paste the original ScreenCapture into, and save it as a JPEG. My machine (Sony Vaio) came with OpenIt which I use to edit the shot down to 8" and add stuff to.

It might be a good idea to settle city #2 relatively close to Carthage, even if it ends up being a throw away city and we abandon and build further out later. 2 reasons: 1) we will be paying unit support on the settler in transit but once we drop him we will have support for 8 units, and 2) the second city can provide defensive units for barbs and such while Carthage is building settlers and whatnot.

Thanks for the advice Civ-steve. I knew there had to be a way of getting those bmp files down to size. The last few times I tried to upload a screen shot the system refused because they were too large. I don't have a good paint program, but your OpenIt seens to be working well. I always find your screen shots helpful.

I play mainly Conquests and forgot that in PTW the AI does not build the Colossus early. So I guess it is worth the risk of delay.

Here is a screen shot.

Why do I feel there are others to the south? Because the mini map does not show much room for anyone else to the north. This may be an island, but Civ-steve's comments earlier lead me to believe there were at least two other civs on the starting landmass.

I like Peg's idea of a throw away city.

Screenshot tip: If you resize your screenshots to about 750x550 they fit on the page without having to scroll side to side, and you still get plenty of detail. Not that there's all that much to see to the east in that shot... ;)

Us being the team Peanut, are you the captain or the team mascot ;) ?

Good Question and not at all silly. I reckon I am like the figurehead on our CivIII warship, but far uglier than most you are likely to see. By accident of history (i.e. blame madbax) the team was named after me. When you let the figurehead take command of the ship, you can end up sailing in strange and hazardous waters (remember the lucky game 2 diplo win ?).

We don't really have a captain - we run this as a rotating presidency. When you are in command, it's you making decisions. Everyone else just sits on your advisory panel. That means everyone is expected to say anything constructive that they can think of - even the loopiest of ideas could be a winner for us.

Early strategy thought - we need population fast to get production up quickly, so a granary (or two) is very useful. I also like the temporary city idea as an option.

I guess this is a "got it" for me. I will turn it over as quickly as I can but it may be a day or so.

Throw away city site recommendation: What about the hill N of Carthage? It can share a cow, 2 BG and have one additional BG in its radius. In addition it will save us 4 worker turns for a road later in the game.

OK, I've loaded the save and looked around. I see the famous 'Mutton Valley' to the South :) ; nice food bonuses but hard to use in this scenario.

Here's a screenshot with some potential city sites identified:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Peanut_sg4_bc3050Main.JPG

I'd recommend site 0 for a throwaway city; it gets to share 2 BGs with Carthage and it gets us access to Spice to make happier people while we build our empire. Also, I think a road to the NW is more the direction to go than a road to the North.

Site 1 is a potential site (not scouted yet) that gets 3 Hills and 2 Spices within it's expanded radius. If it's coastal, its even better. Here or somewhere nearby gets us decent long term production and a Luxury. The Warrior will have to get us more information.

Site 2 is about the best site to the North, it's coastal but only uses 2 coast tiles. There's 4 BG's and 2 Hills within it's expanded radius. I don't find it real impressive.

Site 3 is interesting. It controls the only other river we've found so far; rivers mean more commerce - a very good thing! And no aquaduct build required. It starts out with 3 BG's available. The expanded radius will give us control over access to the North; thus a pretty good defensive position. And there are 5 Mountains and 3 Hills within the expanded Radius. These require 13 extra food to fully work; there are 9 Grassland (2 under Forests), which when irrigated under a higher government will allow most of these to be worked. Long term, this site is high production!

To recap: so far I like Sites 1 and 3, probably at site 3 before site 1 if we build our site 0 throwaway city; our scouts will have to see if there's anything better farther South. If we find something, it might be a high priority to snatch it and then build closer by. Have to see who else we are contending with on our stretch of land also.

I've had a funny thought; we're playing 5CC, but I think if we were to get to 5 cities, then build 3 throwaway cities, we might get the Forbidden Palace as an option to build, maybe start on it, then Abandon the 3 cities. If we're well set otherwise, we might have to try that. (It might take more than that if the OCN count is higher than 8, but it seems worth trying.)

Regarding our score: I suspect many teams founded on Turn2, and the extra two turns of score count. Also, they may have irrigated the closer Cow first, and grown a bit faster; we didn't get access to our two Cows until expansion.

Keith: the package I use is called PictureIt! from MS.

Alright Peanut: you're up; Peglegasus is on deck!

I'm going to be on travel the next few days. Please post screenshots of new terrain as we scout it and I'll try to be involved in the discussion when I can get to a computer.

Keith:
This may be an island, but Civ-steve's comments earlier lead me to believe there were at least two other civs on the starting landmass.
Okay, so that was previous knowledge, fair enough.

Steve:
I still favor building a Granary in Carthage; even though we're not churning out Settlers, we can still churn out 2 turn Workers which will develop and grow our other cities far faster than the 10 turns a city without a food bonus would need to grow.
So you mean like pick a square, road it, mine it, join the city to work it? Yes, sounds efficient.

You are obviously very good at this, I'm affraid I haven't got much to contribute at this stage. I am slightly worried about my turn, don't want to mess things up too much.
One thing I'd like to hear your thoughts on is research tactics. I find generally on monarch level, that we are now playing, that the most efficient way to stay up there with it is to have techs to trade for techs, instead of cash for techs. I don't know how we can manage with five cities though.
M

You are obviously very good at this, I'm affraid I haven't got much to contribute at this stage. I am slightly worried about my turn, don't want to mess things up too much.

Nah, don't be too worried. I know how you feel, though. I think I live up to my Pegleg moniker, being the team gimp :crazyeye: The key is to make sure that everyone understands the plan before the turns are played. What I started doing is before my turns I'll post what my take on the plan is and what I'm planning to do on my turns, based on the discussions here. So then the rest of the team can help refine or possibly correct it. If you think of doing something that deviates too much from the plan, save the game and come talk about it. The cool thing about the succession games is seeing the different ways that people approach things. I've learned TONS from these guys.

One thing I'd like to hear your thoughts on is research tactics. I find generally on monarch level, that we are now playing, that the most efficient way to stay up there with it is to have techs to trade for techs, instead of cash for techs. I don't know how we can manage with five cities though.
M

I think we'll probably do well with research in the AA, but imagine we'll start to fall behind at some point in the MA. Being commercial will help us a lot initially.

I'm leaning towards the 0 city site. Once the worker roads that BG he is on, the settler can get to that spot the turn he is built and settle the next turn.

wanted to let everyone know that next week is going to be pretty crazy for me. I close on the new house tuesday and move wednesday. Hopefully all my services will be set up on time but you never know. So if you don't hear from me next week that's why. So Peanut, play those turns so I can play! :p

Peglegasus - it should be played and up tonight my time (UT+10). I think the hill beside site 0 may be better as it is more defensible against barbs and it gives an option of not tossing it away so quickly. Any objections before I wade in ?

Mathilde - don't worry at all. When it's your turn just get in and do the best you can. And have fun.

The hill north or east? I like the hill north better for the spices

Peglegasus - Uh ... from memory the hill just beside the spice on a north-ish direction. Just north of CS's big "0" on his map.

yes that's the one. good spot I'd say

I'm reporting back in. The hill site for city 0 looks fine! In fact, if we decide to use site 1 later, this will put a road on the hill. :) (EDIT - BIG OOPS, the advantage of the Site 0 city as located on the map is that it shares 2 BG's and a Cow with Carthage. The Hill site to the north does not share the BG's, which will badly reduce the utility of the city to us!)

Mathilda: you've got the idea! Worker's don't have to be joined immediately, but if we connect another Luxury or change governments, being able to Join a bunch of them all at once will give us a big boost!

Regarding Research: we should dominate all the way until the Industrial Age. Trading Techs for Techs is the best way in my opinion, so we develop our cities, build Libraries and Universities and research like crazy. I suggested a minimum research on Writing because I don't think we could have researched it faster at maximum and the 40 turns gives us some time to decide what to do next. If this SGOTM matches the earlier GOTM, we may want Pottery and MapMaking first so we can go exploring; or maybe a local AI can trade us some of these or other 1st tier techs. We may want a city or 2 on a remote landmass, to grab additional resources; or maybe we should stay local. I've done OCC, but not 5CC.

BTW, the earlier GOTM only had 1 other civ on our starting landmass. We will have to see if that's the case again, and who the other civ(s) are.

I've added links in my first post (3rd overall in the thread) to the first Turn Log and posts with screenshots; I'll try to keep adding links as we do turns so we can have a reference area for our game.

Pre-turn : Everything looks in great shape.

IBT : The AI must be up to something but nothing on screen. What are they doing ? Who are they ?

3000 BC : Scout 2 heads NW climbing the hill. He sees … another hill and lots of tundra. He loves the great rugged outdoors and he is overjoyed. Scout3 does some mountain climbing heading west along the south coast. He sees another mountain and is even more overjoyed. Scout1 on he north coast takes the hilly sea air and sees lovely grass to the south. He is just happy. Worker1 just keeps on workin’

IBT : Still nothing. Hmmm.. what ARE they doing under that cloak of darkness ?

2950 BC : Scout1 wades through lush grass southwards along the west coast. Scout2 climbs he hill and is disappointed – no more hills. But wait ! Yonder in the northern forest ! A woolly mammoth ! "Tusks for all" he cries, ignorant of endangered species legislation. Scout3 is happy – he gets to climb another mountain. Worker1 starts mining.

IBT : Still nothing.

2900 BC : Our first settler ! Inspired, the good folk of Carthage start another. He heads NNW, waving encouragingly at the worker as he passes by. Scout2 heads off north to get personal with the mammoth herd. Scouts 1&3 head down the west & east coasts. Just more grass and trees.

IBT : Nothing.

2850 BC : The settler has caught the climbing fever and assaults the hillock beside the spice, muttering something like “… more defensible…”. Scout 2 stands in elephant scat and spots two more jumbos. Might be a good city spot up here somewhere perhaps ? Scout3 climbs a hill (he just can’t resist ‘em) and sees smiling woolly sheep in the distance. Scout 1 steps south and …WHOOP WHOOP - RED BORDERS !! ALERT ALERT !!

IBT : Nothing again ! Devious little things these AI are …

2800 BC : Scout1 moves closer. More red border … but who is it ? Utica (for the moment) founded, training a warrior. Scout2 sees the North Cape. Nothing but a plentiful supply of ice, trees and tusks here. Worker1 moves to road Utica.

IBT : Still nothing. What are they up to ?

2750 BC : Scout3 stands on the sheep’s back just for the fun of it (and because it was up a hill and … well …he loves hills). Scout1 crosses the red line just to see what happens. Nobody in sight. Scout2 feels chilly and heads south again.

IBT : **ring ring ** It’s the diplo-phone … Uh Oh – it’s Caesar to the south. Figures ! Carthage … Rome … war … blood … pillage … I can see it all too clearly already. We will have a very interesting time soon I suspect. He offers Warrior code for Masonry. Shall we talk more, Caesar ol’ mate ? What !! Warrior code & BW for Masonry + all our gold + 4gpt ??? Stick that up your toga. We sell Masonry for BW+5g and make him polite. Caesar has two cities.

2710 BC : Scout1 leaves Rome and climbs a hill just for the view you get at the top and … a Hut to the north-east! Will we chance it ? Why not. Scout3 pokes about in the jungle east of Rome.

IBT : Nothing happens that we can see.

2670 BC : Poop - three thugs pop out of the hut. Utica is connected, Worker1 heads for the spice.

IBT : One thug suicides on our mighty stone axe. The other two stand around and watch. A Roman settler party appears near Scout3 heading NW for the wool.

2630 BC : Settler done – he heads off towards the river valley to the west. A Warrior next. Utica makes a warrior – off to MP duty. Scout3 saunters over to stand in the way of the Roman settler party. Scout2 digs in for another attack. Utica uses the wet cow for a few turns.

IBT : Another thug suicides. The third heads off to annoy Caesar.

2590 BC : Scout3 moves to see what Caesar does with his settler. All quiet otherwise - Scout2 is recovering and wondering bitterly why his battlefield promotion has not been processed by the bureaucracy, even though he has done ALL the fighting so far this game.

Gratuitous advice : I suggest heading the settler to the river valley – either the most easterly hill or perhaps the hill beside the mountains in reach of the two flocks of sheep. What do you all think ? Sorry it took so long but I only just got a break in the workload. It will ease in a few days.

Over to you Captain Peglegasus !

The 2590BC save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_BC2590_01.SAV)

Oh dear. I just read your post CS ... too late. Utica is on the hill. Ah well - Peanut strikes again !

Anyone know if we are modded for archer defensive shot? :D The original gotm28 rules changes lists it...

I have to aggree with civ_steve about the city 0 sight. The whole point to these early throw away cities is to maximize worker turns and improved tiles.

I aggree that we will dominate research. I am playing a test 5cc under Conquests and I am dominating both Wonder building and research. My captial Babylon has built Colossus, GL, Hanging Gardens and the S. Chapel. Other cities have built Great Lighthouse and Temple of Zeus.

The one thing I have learned is that with all this wonder building I did not make enough workers early. With only five cities and the pressing need to build other things later in the game we would be wise to build a good worker corp early on in this game.

Another observations: The S. Chapel is very valuable in a 5cc. The AI can be slow in getting their trade net up (another reason to build lots of workers early) and with just five cities it is hard to control more than one or two luxuries. Consequently, we will have to rely on self produced happiness a lot longer than in normal games.

Well, 3 luxuries in sight! That's good. We'll have to form colonies in the far north to claim the Ivory. And it's a shame we don't have our two scouts together to block the Roman Warrior/Settler pair; I'd like to claim the Wool as well. Not only are they a luxury, but they generate a lot of shields as well.

There hasn't been any discussion about the city sites I suggested in this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2198728&postcount=29) . It would be a mistake to form a city in the middle of Mutton Valley - there are too many mountains. You could form a city on the SW corner of the hilly/mountainy range, at the mouth of the river - this space would use 1 of the sheep space, would have 6 Mountains and 2 Hills available, be on the river and on the coast. The drawback is that its 11 spaces away from the Capital, so its production and commerce will be wasted and corrupted. I'm still suggesting Site 3 for the next city.

I see two cows down near Rome. If the Forbidden Palace trick works, we might be able to move our Palace down South, maybe forming 2 cities - one at the River mouth near the Cows, and the other near the Wool. Of course we would have to remove Rome from the area, which might be easier said than done at this stage.

Or maybe we play peaceful, form a city at Site 3, then somewhere near Site1, then maybe just over the Hills at the River Mouth. I don't have a good feel for how much corruption we experience with a 5CC; should be almost 0 Rank corruption but possibly some distance.

Utica is using the irrigated Cow space. Maybe it gets to use that space until it's size3 or so, then it's building units. We do want to build Carthage up and be the big Worker/Settler builder, so it will need both Cows at some point. A city at Site 3 gets 3 BG's to use immediately, so we will need another Worker out there roading and mining for it at some point.

Peglegasus: You're UP!!

Sight 3 all the way! This is a the best sight we have open. What is the FP trick? I don't see how we can build one with only 5 cities.

I'm hoping I can play today or tonight. If not I'll have to pass, as I'm super busy packing, painting, cleaning, etc. So look for either the turn log or a pass tonight. BTW, I haven't loaded the save so I'm wondering... are we still on a writing research path right now? What build orders do we want for Utica? I'd like to see another worker out soon. Want to build a worker as it grows to size 2? size 3? And I intend to put our next city at site 3 as planned. Anything else?

FP trick: we should be able to build the Forbidden Palace as soon as we have the required number of cities; I don't think we have to wait for the pop-up at the beginning of the next turn that says "The People want to build the Forbidden Palace". If this is so, then once we are pretty established, we build a bunch of temporary cities to get us up to the right number, start the FP, then Abandon the cities. We should be able to finish the FP once we've started it.

Here's an updated screenshot with proposed city sites:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Peanut_sg4_bc2590Main.JPG

Site 1 is now divided into 1a and 1b. 1a has 4 hills and 2 Spices within it's first cultural expansion, but is not coastal. 1b has 3 hills, no Spice within it's first expansion, but is coastal. I'm leaning towards 1b because harbors and ships look to be important in this game, and this give us a West coast harbor site. We have Spice for now with Utica_temporary, and can get it later with a colony if we have to.

Site 2 is not very desireable IMO, but I've included it here.

Site 3 is a powerhouse, being on a river with 3 BG's immediately available and long-term high production site. Once Steam Power is available, it will be able to use all the squares within it's radius. It's not Coastal, but we can make that up with our other cities.

I've added Site 4, which I described in my earlier post. It is coastal and on a river. It also uses the Sheep-on-Plains space once it expands. Eventually it will be able to use all its spaces, and be a high production city. Only drawback is it's distance from the Capital (11) which will cause corruption and waste due to distance. (However this can be overcome by building the FP or moving the Palace to the Site 3 location.)

So I'd build at Site 3 next with the currently active Settler. Next before any other major builds get another Settler out of Carthage to form a city at Site 4 before Rome claims it. After that, I'd probably build a Granary in Carthage, then build at Site 1a/1b (I'm leaning towards 1b.)

With research, I'd finish the Minimum research of Writing, than go full speed to get Pottery. After that we should decide whether we go for Philosophy / Code of Laws / Republic for Government change, Map-Making for exploration, or Literature for Libraries and Cultural expansion. We'll probably get minimal help from Rome, but we should check for anything new from time to time.

Builds and city plans:
- Carthage should finish it's Warrior, then maybe a Settler for Site 4, then perhaps a Granary. Carthage should be our Settler/Worker factory (after it builds a Granary).
- Utica is using the Irrigated Cow; I'd let it keep it until it's size3, then switch the Cow to Carthage and have Utica use the two Forests and one of the Grasslands (which needs to be Mined since we're not sharing BG's with Carthage.) This combo of spaces should give Utica 5 useable shields. Utica is there only to build Units, Warriors initially, then Spearmen/Archers (once we can). At some time it should build a Barracks, probably after 2 - 3 Warriors are built. If you want another Worker, build it at Carthage.
- Site 3 might start off with a Spearman, or maybe Walls if we get enough Units from Utica
- Site 4 will probably want Walls, then Galleys.

That's my thoughts for the next 20 -30 turns or so. Before doing your turns you should review the thread one last time for any late-breaking inputs; you have to execute your individual turns but WE need to play the overall game as a team. This will be very critical for the 5CC; since we will be building only 5 cities their locations must be agreed to by the team, so please make any suggestions or post any of your thoughts regarding this or any other aspect of the game.

Keep an eye on the commerce %'s; we won't need any Luxury Tax when we're size 1 or 2, or size 3 with Spice connected so be sure to set that at 0 when appropriate (most of the time; larger cities should have MP's.) And the Science rate can be reduced when we have larger cities from 20 to 10% (for Writing.) I just remembered - we have Numedian Mercenaries, not Spearmen! Do we want to build them and risk an early GA, or just go with Warriors and Archers until later?

Peglegasus: UP (and moving); Mathida is on-deck

Well, I'm itchin' to play but there is just too much madness at my house trying to paint, clean, and pack... while keeping a three year old and an 8 month old entertained. We move Wednesday and I hope to have some degree of normalcy next weekend. Until then I'll be able to check in and discuss the game but I really can't play.

I can't finish my COTM4 either and it's probably a personal best for me. I conquered the entire starting continient by 670AD, using the strategies I learned from you all in SGOTM3. My estimates are I would have a pre-1550AD Spaceship launch :( I may never know.

So Mathilda, it's on to you.

I just remembered - we have Numedian Mercenaries, not Spearmen! Do we want to build them and risk an early GA, or just go with Warriors and Archers until later?

Aren't Num. Mercs as costly as swordsmen to build? I REALLY like them, but rather costly to build when you only have 5 cities. When I play a game as Carthage on my own I don't start building any until I have a bunch of cities built. We should build a few at some point though. They are great to use to defend a stack of attackers. Throw in a couple archers for def shot and you've got a great assault force ( :p You know me and my archers).

Yeah, the NumMercs cost 30 Shields each! But without them, we don't have a great defensive unit until Muskets (no Pikes, since NumMercs have better stats.) I'm kind of leaning towards wanting a late Industrial Age, early Modern Age GA (Colossus now and Hoover's Dam later), because I don't think we'll need the commerce boost until then so I'd rather have Warriors, and Archers, and hopefully upgrade to Swordsmen for our defensive/offensive needs (assuming Iron is available). In reality, we'll have two Luxuries to trade to Rome so we can probably be able to convince them not to attack, so maybe a defensive unit wont be necessary.

What do people wish to research after Writing? I think Pottery is a must, and then ... MapMaking(?) if we are on a smallish island (that should be confirmed one way or another by the time we have to decide).

Mathilda - you're UP! (and I'm on-deck)

Got it.
I'll play in about 10 hours from now, when I've got my kids to bed :)
Shame you had to skip Peg, happy moving.
On research: map making works for me.
About Numidian Mercenaries, I was wondering about the option of having an early GA and using that to wipe out the Romans, if there is nobody else on the same island. After that, wouldn't have to worry about military quite as much. As we know AI isn't great on overseas attacks.
Though if we go that way, we could do with being rid of the Romans before they get to tell on us. Do you think it's doable? Is it worth it? Is it damaging? If I was playing by myself, that's probably the way I'd go, but quite ready to accept that it's not a good idea, would just be great to hear your thoughs.
About city sites, 3 looks good, as does 4, but not overly keen on the others.
How about due west of the double spices west of Carthage, on the peninsula? Wouldn't that work a harbour for western coast and as a colossus town, would give us a bigger benefit from colossus than Cartage, having more sea squares.
Please tell me why not.
M

Good questions!

So on research, it appears we're all agreed: finish Minimum on Writing, then research Pottery - Map-Making at Maximum. Anybody else?

Attacking or doing in the Romans: we could probably do that. However, we are in a competition against the other teams and we want to do our victory condition faster than they do theirs. If our focus is Space Victory with a possible UN Diplo win if things aren't going well, then we want to look at the AI as a resource, not as an enemy. If we are alone with the Romans, we will probably advance faster by using them as a trading partner; that way we are able to build our cities faster, without having to sustain the Military costs of a war and we will gain their Luxuries, Gold and research benefits through trading. At this point, that's the direction I'd recommend.

Regarding the West Coast peninsula spot for a Colossus build: let's assume we're under Republic, using 12 tiles, and the 5 unknown tiles are 4 Coast and 1 Sea. The peninsula location has 8 Coast (3 Commerce), 2 Spice (4 Commerce), and the 2 BG's (2 Commerce) for 36 Commerce plus the city space. Carthage has 6 River and 5 Coast (3 Commerce) and a Cow for 35 Commerce, plus the city (actually Capital). So they are equivalent in Commerce, but Carthage being the Capital will experience less Corruption and have more base Commerce with the Colossus. Also, Carthage has considerably more shield production so building Colossus, and the other Science Wonders, will be more easily accomplished. Carthage would be my pick.

That's my thoughts; I look forward to your turn log! :)

Here we go.
Peanuttia (also known as Carthage) in 2590 as Queen Mathilda I started her
reign, had a healthy 116 gold in it's treasury, stashing away another 5 gold
per every tax period.
It's two towns Carthage and Utica were both concentrating their efforts on
farming and training warriors to defend the glorious land.
Queen Mathilda likes foreign travel and socialing, so decided to go and pay a
little visit to Ceasar, to have a little natter, and maybe see what Ceasar had
been up to.
Well, Ceasar offered just biscuits with tea, as he only had 15 gold in his
vault. He would have quite willing to share his knowledge of warrior code with
us in return of our lovely gold. We in our royal personage decided that we'd
bide our time, and see if the dealing would be more to our liking once we had
writing to offer in exchange (in 14 turns). Perhaps Ceasar would by then have
come up with something else as well. Leave him to it and go back home
(walk, can you imagine!) to Carthage.

Checked the finances and adjusted the spending on luxuries to zero from
10%, mustn't get the people used to too much luxuries, they'll just get lazy.

IBT
The Roman settler- warrior pair heads NE
Some barbarian warrior decides to end his life on the axe of our Scout1.

Year 2550 BCC (Before Current Calendar)
Scout 1 continues exploration along the coast.
Scout 2 can't see anything worth looking in the north & heads south.
Scout 3 dances with the Romans.

IBT
nothing

Year 2510 BCC
Our Trades advisor looks happy, she informs us that spices have arrived to
Carthage, making people happy :)
Warrior in Carthage finally gets his orders to head after that settler that left
some time in the previous century. Apparently there'll be another one very
soon to take his place in the capital.
Worker 1 gets told to chop the trees from around them spices, the wood is
needed to build a barracks in Utica, and turns out the spices will probably be
mined later on.
Scout 1 ->southeast
Scout 2 -> towards Utica
Scout 3 wants to see where is the place that the people wearing red came
from and heads to the presumed direction of Rome.

IBT
Roman pair heads north.

Year 2470 BCC
Both our towns grow to size 2, which allows us to adjust our science
spending to 10% of the revenue, increasing the savings to 9 gpt. Writing due
in 11.
Carthage builds warrior, who'll stay and guard the town.

Changed both cows to Carthage to get fast population growth there.
Had intended to finsh the warrior in Utica and start barracks, but changed
mind at this stage and changed now, rax due in 8, with the forest chop in 3.
We can survive with these warriors for the time being.
Also made the strangest decision of puting Carthage on to wealth for 1 turn.
I wanted a worker next, worker was due in 3, growth in 4. I didn't want
population back to 1, so with one turn of wealth, we get the growth and
worker on the same turn.

Leptis Magna is founded, started on warrior.
Scout 1 heads south along the coast.
Scout 3 towards Rome.
Even though we can't see Rome, we can now see that both Rome and Veii
are by river, Veii also next to wolly sheep.
We check on the Romans while we're in the area, and see that they haven't
come up with any new technologies and haven't hooked up to any luxuries.



IBT
Romans found their third town of Antium on the east coast. Don't quite get
why they didn't put it bit further south, would have got fresh water and sea
coast.

Year 2430 BCC
Cartage set to worker.
Scout 3 climbs on hill and can see that he is standing right next to Rome.
Quite nice place for a picnic.
Scout 2 reaches Utica.
Scout 1 carries on south along the west coast.

IBT
Nothing.
I wonder what Ceasar's up to, usually he's very vigilant about soldiers next to
his capital.

Year 2390 BCC
Warrior reaches Leptis Magna, all town now have MP on duty.
Scout 3 decides to go wading through Ceasars wheat fields east of Rome.
Scout 1 still on the coast.
Roman scientists have been busy, as they now know something call iron
working.

IBT
Yes, we admit. Our mistake. Ceasar didn't like us in the fields apparently and
slung us to the east coast. Their military force apparantly is about the same
size as ours.

Year 2350 BCC
Carthage builds a worker, who'll start building a road to Leptis Magna.
Starts on settler.
Scouts 1 & 3 both go south.
Scout 1 on east coast comes to dead end between the sea and Roman
territory.

IBT
Not a thing

Year 2310 BCC
Leptis Magna completes warrior, and starts on another one straight away.
As there already is a warrior in LM, the new one heads south in case those
pesky Romans start to get any funny ideas.
Scout 3 still south.
Scout 1 decides to tresspass in hope of joining his friend.
Worker 1 gets a parcel gets a parcel from his Queen, and it's a brand new
pick axe, start digging boy!

IBT
Sorry Ceasar, of course we'll go.
The Romans still have the same 15 gold in treasury, and haven't made any
other changes either.

Year 2350 BCC
Utica is now the top military base as it even has a barracks. They'll start on a
warrior straight away.
They claim to have one ready in 4 turns.
Scouts 1 & 3 are heading towards each other along what looks like a south
coast.

IBT
Sorry Ceasar was that still our land, our mistake. Get slung back to east coast.

Year 2190 BCC
Scout 3 follows the south coast to west.
Worker 1 finishes the mine and heads to the forest north of Utica.
Warrior South of LM spots 2 tribes people, one on either coast.

Queen Mathilda I finishes her reign with 194 gold in the treasury, with
another 8 coming in very soon. She has been informed by the scientists that
writing sould be known to us in 4 turns.

Here is the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_BC2190_01.SAV)

Struggling to make it smaller, I'll have to work on that before next time.
Sorry about that.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Carthage_2190bc.jpg

Still getting back to city sites, was the wets coast peninsula alltogether a bad idea for city placement or was it just not quite as good for Colossus as the capital. Not a big difference there either, was it? We should get that Colossus under way btw.
Steve, it's you next isn't it?

Good timing, Mathilda! My son just went down for his afternoon nap, so I should be able to get this out in the next hour or so.

We will want to get Utica up to size 3; using two forests and the mined Grassland it will get 5 shields (2 turns for Warriors and 4 for Archers).

The West Peninsula site isn't bad for the Colossus, looking at just the Colossus. But, not only does the Capital get a bit more useable commerce, it has considerably more shield production, which means it's more likely to also build Copernicus' Observatory and Newton's University; these two Wonders will amplify the effect of the Colossus, creating a Super Science City.

I'll take it, and play right away. I'll see if Ceasar will trade Iron-Working for Writing (once we have it), and power down the Pottery path. Meanwhile, Carthage will get another Settler ready for Site 4, then start on Granary for a fast growth period.

I'm off.

... while keeping a three year old and an 8 month old entertained.
I'll play in about 10 hours from now, when I've got my kids to bed :)
My son just went down for his afternoon nap

Keith? Peanut? Any kids? :D

I think Peanut has mentioned kids as well. Not sure about Keith.

Finished the set of turns, here is the log:

Turn 0, 2190 AD
Things are well with the Empire.
(as a note, the Worker SW of Carthage building road would have been better to work the BG one space to the NW; he's working the straight road tile, which as a bare Grassland)
Adjust Utica to use Irrigated Cow (growth to size 3 in 4 turns; Warrior still in 2)
Adjust Carthage from Irrigated Cow to Mined BG (growth to size 3 in 2 turns, Settler in 4)
Adjust Leptis Magna to Worker (finish at Growth to size2; more development)

(IBT, 3 Barbs visible in the central mountain range)

Turn 1, 2150 AD
Scout 1 (in central mountains) move to Mountain space for defense against Barbs)
Scout 2 (far SW) start heading back along West Coast
Scout 3 (far S) reveals 2 more Wools for Rome (5 total, surely they will share?)
Worker 1 starts building Road for Utica's Forests
Worker 2 finishes Grasslands Road, moves SW to BG (to connect Carthage - LM)

(IBT - Roman Warrior/Settler seen to SW, barbs adjust)

Turn 2, 2110 A
Carthage is size 3; Utica finishes Vet Warrior
Reg Warrior in Utica starts heading South
Warrior in Carthage heads South
Worker 2 starts on Road near LM
LM switched back to Warrior (too many Barbs nearby!)

(IBT - Warrior in central mountains fends off 1 barb attack (2 more nearby))

Turn 3, 2070 AD
LM finishes Warrior, begins another; LM is size 2
Push 2 Warriors out of LM to force the barbs' hand

(IBT - not much)

Turn 4, 2030 AD
Learn Writing - Rome has IronWorking, Pottery and Warrior Code; Trade Writing and 44 Gold for IronWorking and Pottery
Iron - only 1 is directly adjacent to Rome (how convenient! MB is out ainwooding ainwood!)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Peanut_sg4_bc2030IronCrop.JPG

Start on Map-Making, 30 turns
Carthage fin Settler (size 1 now), start on Granary
Utica size 3, 5 shields/turn
Worker1 move over to road 2nd Utica Forest
Worker2 connected LM, move across River to Plains, with 3 Warrior Escort
Settler heading to Site 4

(IBT - 2 Barbs suicide on our Warriors, stout lads that they are! No barbs in sight.)

Turn 5, 1990 AD
Utica fin a Vet Warrior, start on another
Worker2 starts on Road in Plains
Scout reaches Southern Tip; our island is totally scouted

(IBT - nothing, very quiet)

Turn 6, 1950 AD
Our Warriors are creating a safe zone to escort the Settler to site 4
Scouts are coming back
Give Irrigated Cow back to Carthage

(IBT - still very quiet)

Turn 7, 1910 AD
Worker 2 goes to Hills for next road (heading towards site 4)
Utica fin another Vet Warrior, start on NumMerc (to slow things down, we're at 1 gpt cost for our military)

(IBT - eerily quiet)

Turn 8, 1870 AD
Carthage is back to size 3
LM fin Worker to help Worker2 with Road to site4, starts on Pyramids for shields hold
Worker 1 finishes road in Utica Forest, off to improve around Carthage

(IBT - you know, quiet)

Turn 9, 1830 AD
Ceasar knows the Wheel now, as well as WarCode

(IBT - ditto)


Turn 10, 1790 AD
Southern Road Crew moves to Sheep on Hills space
Worker 1 is mining River BG near Carthage

(IBT - aww, a Barb shows up to NW of Utica)

Turn 11, 1750 AD
Took extra turn to get us up to turn 50; Keith was short a turn
Settler arrives at site4 location
Scout is trying to go through Rome territory to rejoin the team.

End of Turnlog

I set Utica to build NumMercs because we were getting hit by costs for a large military. The NumMercs can be safely used against the Barbs (no GA can start there!), but be careful about deploying them against Rome.

Carthage is working on a Granary; when it's finished I see a period of quick Worker builds to do development and quick growth of LM, Site4, and eventually Carthage itself; then Carthage should be able to work on Colossus. Not sure at what point, but if we get Ivory connected by NumMerc protected Colony, and have 2 MP's per city, we should be at least size 6 in our core cities.

I set LM to store shields by starting on Pyramids; might be a Library or some other build eventually.

Settler stack is at Site 4, ready to found next turn. Road Crew is working to connect it, and both have Warrior escorts.

Map-Making in just over 20, at 100%; with growth, probably done in 15 or so. Then we can see who else we can reach, since Rome is it for our little island. Depending on how we connect with other lands, we might see about building Great Lighthouse, if it will allow us to trade (allows it over Sea, but not over Ocean).

Here's the 1750 screenshot and save:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Peanut_sg4_bc1750Main.JPG

1750 BC Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_BC1750_01.SAV)

Keith Larson: You're UP! (and Peanut is on deck)

Iron - only 1 is directly adjacent to Rome (how convenient! MB is out ainwooding ainwood!)
What a suprise :rolleyes:
Thanks Steve for prompt play, I can go get some sleep now.

GOTM28 had only 1 initial Iron as well; in my game it was depleted (by Persia, not Rome) before I ever learned Iron-Working, but in multiple Spoiler posts it was pretty clear to be in the coastal Hills WSW of Rome, not smack-dab next to it!

Also, there were NO Horses on the island! And those don't deplete and move around. I thought the point of this resource allocation at the time was to take advantage of India's War-Elephant not needing Iron and Horses, and also take away the general player's ability to build cheaper Horsemen and upgrade to War-Elephant later; a handicap but possible to overcome. We will be worse off in this game; we know Iron isn't readily available, and if there are no Horses, we will need to acquire 2 Resources to build Knights. On the bright side, these will be incredibly difficult obstacles to teams pursuing Conquest or Domination goals! :D

We should have Map-Making soon, probably in 2 turnsets. Do we wish to not trade it and restrict Rome from moving around by Galley, or trade it for some of Rome's Techs? (He might even learn it before us, but will probably research Ceremonial Burial first.) I'm leaning towards trading it; possibly gaining Wheel to verify if there are any Horses around, and WarriorCode so we can build some Archers.

After Map-Making I'd suggest either the 3 Techs necessary for Republic so we can revolt, or Literature for Libraries. Having Libraries will allow us to gain Culture, allow our cities to expand which will also restrict Rome from building too close. Libraries will also allow faster research of Philosophy, Code-of-Laws and Republic. I'm leaning towards Literature for that reason as well.

I made a big mistake by allowing Carthage to drop to size1. This means it isn't able to work both Cattle spaces, growing at +5 food per turn. I got a Settler for site 4 out faster this way, but without a road system in place, I don't think it compensates for the reduced growth of Carthage for a few turns. I'd recommend keeping Carthage at size 2 or higher (shouldn't be a problem with a Granary).

We're going to have to solve the Rome problem as we proceed. At this point, I'd like to keep Ceasar happy with us so he wants us around. If he makes a demand, we should give it to him. We will want to connect our road system to his so we can eventually trade him Spice and Ivory; if he's getting Luxuries from us, he should be less likely to attack. We may want to gift him a few gpt just to keep his sunny disposition showing. A few thoughts for you.

After Carthage finishes it's Granary, I'd suggest a Settler for site 1b (my recommendation), followed by Workers to develop and join our cities (I'd estimate about 12 Workers, 3 each for Carthage, LM, Site4 and Site1b), then the Colossus. I think we can grow the cities to size 7 or so with 10% Luxury Tax, 2 Luxuries and 2 MPs, and Carthage a bit bigger (8 or 9) because it can afford an Entertainer or two, and the Worker force will permit this and do development to allow useful terrain to be used.

Or alternatively, Carthage finishes it's Granary, builds a Settler for site 1b, maybe 3-5 Workers for development, then starts on Colossus. The Workers are mainly for Carthage, and 2 or 3 are added to it when there are enough spaces developed to be useful. This option gets us Colossus more quickly, but is wasteful in shields production for Workers since Carthage will have to rebuild those Workers to get back to size 6 or less, when it can then build up the other cities by putting out a Worker force.

Option 2 gets the Colossus build faster; unfortunately we will see little benefit from it while still in Despotism.

OK, that's more than enough ramblings from me; back to Keith. Can you take it?

Hi, Keith. It's been over 24 hours without a got it from you. Can you take it or should Peanut get warmed up?

:bounce::bounce::bounce:
Come oooon.
Keith, it's been 36 hours.
Peanut the clock's on you.
Let's get this show moving.
Anyone.
( I'm not a very patient person.)

Mathilda is ready for her next turn! :) In general, we have a 24 hour period to post a 'got it', and then a 48 hour period to play your turns, upload a save and post a turn log. People do get busy in RL so we are not hard-core about strict time limits, but it is good to post reminders and statuses so everyone knows what's going on, and to keep the game moving.

It's coming up on 48 hours from the last turn, so either Keith or Peanut can post a 'got-it' for the next turn set.

On a side note: I'm heading out on vacation this Thursday, and will be gone from Sept. 30th thru Oct. 7th. Not sure what sort of contact with the Team (if any) I'll be able to have. With that in mind (and since Peglegasus just moved or is moving, so I'm not sure how stable his world is right now), Peglegasus: would you mind trading your next turn for my next turn? If so, I'd be up after Peanut, then you'd play after Mathida and Peanut in the next round. What do you think?

I got it. Sorry, I did not anticipate such a fast turn around. I had a busy social life this weekend and was too busy being civil too worry about Civilization. I will get to the turns this evening after work.

On an side note I do have children. Three daughters. All old enough to put themselves to bed.

My vote is Lit next. Two reason 1) we will make up some of the lost time with the faster research rate 2) the extra time will allow us to build up a bit more in preparation for Republic.

My vote is for building the Colossus sooner rather than later. If we wait too long we may lose it.

Good to hear we haven't lost you Keith. Nothing wrong with social life, as long as it doesn't interfere with civ ;)

In another game I've just been playing, same difficulty level, AI civ just built the Colossus in 1200BC. Someone fancy counting what turn / year we should start to beat that?
M

It looks like we're all parents with kids at home. Time to change our name to Team SesameStreet! :)

Alright, Keith has it! It looks like Literature at full bore, after finishing Map-Making, is the current concensus. I also think we should trade Map-Making to Rome for Wheel and Warrior Code; this will confirm the status of Horses on our island, and provide us an offensive unit. Let's hear some discussion if you don't agree.

To build Colossus a bit faster, we could let Utica build a couple Numedian Mercenaries (barb control), then spit out the Settler for Site 1b. That would save 4 turns. Also, only build enough Workers to bump Carthage up to a max sustainable size, maybe 3 or so. Then start on Colossus. This would shave about 8 turns off of option 2 from before.

IIRC, here's a tip about Joining Workers to cities. If a city has a Granary, and is size 6, Joining a Worker makes it size 7 with its food bin half full. In all other cases (with Granary, growing to size 7; no granary, Joining a Worker; no granary, growing to size 7) the size 7 has an empty food bin. So, if you're going to Join a Worker at all, its a good idea to Join a Worker to a size 6 city with a Granary just before it grows to size 7. (Same thing for Size 12 cities, growing to Size 13.)

OK, I've done some spreadsheet analysis of the Colossus build at Carthage.

If we convert our Granary build to the Colossus, and keep 4 turn growth, we should complete it in 19 turns (1225 BC).

If we finish the Granary first, the best scenario is to build 1 Worker, allow Carthage to grow to size 6 using 2 turn Growth, Join the Worker just before Carthage grows to size 7. Colossus is built in 24 turns (1100 BC).

Right now, I don't see an advantage to build the Granary first. If we build Colossus first, we would grow to Size 7 before we finish it; at that size we can finish the Granary in 5 turns, getting us to the same point as the second scenario, but we've secured the Colossus first.

So Keith, change the Granary build in Carthage to Colossus, and finish it first.

Oops, I edited the post right before this one. Keith, please review the post right before this one for analysis regarding Carthage's build. We should convert our Granary build to the Colossus.

Double Oops; it looks like the forum automatically appends messages if their from the same person.

Pre-turn:
Switched the Granary to the Colossus at Carthage.

IBT:
Rome tells Scout3 to get out. He says OK. Barbarian move to woods.

Turn 1: 1725 BC
Didn’t read Civ_steves last report closely enough and moved Scout3 out of Roman territory. I will go back in next turn. Theveste is founded at site 4 and starts worker. Road work continues through the valley.

IBT:
Rather than killing himself the barbarian next to Utica takes out the roads.

Turn 2: 1700 BC
Utica produces a N. Merc. and starts another. The newly created Merc takes out the Barb taking only one hit. Worker next to Carthage moves to a new river BG. Road on hill is completed and chain gang move to river plains tile. Scout3 move back in to Roman territory. We purchase a Roman worker for 110 gold. This will hamper their development and speed ours. The new slave labor joins our worker at the river BG.

IBT:
Nothing of importance.

Turn 3: 1675 BC
Road plains in valley, Roman slave start road, native worker starts mine on BG. Scout3 moves deeper into Roman territory. We see that Rome as hooked up the iron.

IBT:
We are told Rome is building the Pyramids and we see a reg. Legion at Rome.

Turn 4: 1650 BC
Scout3 continues his trip home. Valley working move to the next tile with their escort. NMerc heals and heads NW to kill some barbs.

IBT:
Scout3 is given the boot by Rome and shaves off a few turns from his trip.

Turn 5: 1625 BC
NMerc continues NW and climbs a hill. From there he see three barbs, but no camp. Valley workers road another tile and connect Theveste with the rest of the empire. Carthage is now at size 4 and one of the escort warriors heads back home for MP duty. I notice that Caesar is making faces at me. I give him 10 gold to make him happy. This does not improve his attitude.

IBT:
Workers finish mine and road next to Carthage.

Turn 6: 1600 BC
NMerc kill one barb and is not hurt. Caesar is a little slow, he has that stupid grin on his face again. I guess he does appreciate our gold. About time! The Theveste worker pair move to BG.

IBT:
The barbs are scared now! Both flee to the N!

Turn 7 1575 BC
NMerc heads after them. Theveste workers road BG. Scout3 makes it to this newly created road. Carthage worker pair move to BG NE of Carthage.

IBT:
Barb takes a stand and fortifies. Two more are in the Ivory woods to his N.

Turn 8 1550 BC
NMerc kills fortified barb and takes no hits! Theveste workers start mine. Carthage workers start road/mine.

IBT:
One barb move and the other fortifies.

Turn 9: 1525 BC
NMerc takes out barb in woods and takes no loses. Carthage is now at five population and will complete Colossus in 11 turns.

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 10: 1500 BC
Utica completes NMerc and starts settler. Newly created NMerc will go barb hunting around the spices to the W. First NMerc kills other barb. The barb camp must be in the far NW. Near Theveste one worker starts mine by river and the other starts a road in grass. I switch Theveste to Palace as a pre-build for a galley (the newly created river mine makes a worker not match up with population growth. At least we didn’t waste a shield.)

After action report:
Once the one worker near Theveste finishes the mine send him back to LM to develop that area. One worker back at Theveste should keep up with pop growth. Once a galley as been launched, I think our next move is to pop rush a temple or a library to open more land for development. This would also close the door to the North. The new galley should of course try to find more nations.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_BC1500_01.SAV

Very nice, Keith! It's good to see that Site 4 (Theveste) isn't experienceing too much corruption or Waste yet; we'll have to see how it does when its larger.

Carthage will be size 6 in three turns. Whoever plays next will have to see if it makes sense to increase the Luxury Tax to 10% or create an Entertainer. Increasing the Luxury Tax will probably cut a turn or two off finishing the Colossus.

I like the pre-builds going on in LM and Theveste; hopefully they can finish off a Galley in Theveste and a Library in LM soon.

Rome has over 200 Gold in Ceasar's treasury. We'll finish Map-Making in 5 turns at the current rate. We should be able to get some of Ceasar's gold in addition to a Tech or two.

Peanut: You're UP!! (and Peglegasus is on deck)

Well done steve for doing the calculcations!
The forum has been changed a few days ago, so that a second post will be merged to the previous one of the same poster, if it's done in under an hour from the previous one.
Not convinced about Sesame Street :crazyeye: Let's stick to the nutty theme.
Talking of which: Peanut! - let's hear from you.

About the game, I've never been really doing bribery, not convinced it works. You've obviously got some experience in the matter. How do you know it makes a difference? How do you know how much to give to make a difference.
Here's my experiences: if I've been major distrying another civ, it doesn't matter how much I give them afterward, like a whole age worth of techs, they stay furious. And inspired by what you done Keith, I tried it in a solo game (same 10 gold when they were annoyed) and was attacked the next turn. :confused:
M

My two teenagers would not care for their father being on Team Sesame Street. BTW don't believe all that you hear, teens can be a blast. I have always believed that people tend to rise to expectations, and if you have low expectations for those years that is exactly what your children will give you!

About happiness. There are some great articals on the subject right here on CivFanatics. Every 10 gold improves the AI attitude. You can do this up to 4 times and then it will not improve. Trading will always improve and if the AI is getting something they value from you they are unlikely to break the trade aggeement by attacking.

I like to bribe with gpt or Luxuries. That way the AI is getting something from me every turn, and if they declare war, they wont.

My son is 3 1/2, and I knew better than to even mention Team Barney! :lol: Nutty theme it is.

Early in the game the AI does not look kindly on GPT. Offer it and they will not even take it.

Yes, I've noticed that. They don't seem to start accepting any sort of gpt deals till currency has been discovered.
Anyways, PEANUT - PLEASE!

Crikey ! Two keen and eager players cracking the whip - CS and Mathilde. I'm exhausted just keeping up with reading this thread. And it's time to let the team figurehead steer the good ship Peanut again - let's hope I don't put us on the rocks again.

I have two children - two boys - aged 9 (and 3/4 as he reminds us) and the younger recently turned 6. It is the spring school holidays at the moment, with the weather warming up nicely and the little darlings are keeping us quite busy.

Well this is a belated "got it" ... sorry for the delay (see previous paragraph) ... I will digest your collected wisdom before I, with trembling finger, press that <Enter> key and start play.

Yes, I've noticed that. They don't seem to start accepting any sort of gpt deals till currency has been discovered.
...
And an Embassy usually helps as well. I was referring to a gift; PTW AI will usually accept a gpt gift if they don't have other plans for you. Curious, in my recent COTM4 submittal, I was going for Diplo win and near the end of the game several of the civs would NOT accept a 100 gpt gift! But a few turns later, they all did. A mini-war was going on between them during the first attempt, and peace had been declared by the 2nd attempt, so maybe there's something in the logic about not accepting gpt gifts during wartime, or something.

Peanut: I'm particularly keen because IF you play in the next 12 hours, and IF Peglegasus agrees to my offer to exchange turns, and IF I can break free from packing for vacation to play the turns ... I can get a turn set in (all this is not likely). Otherwise, it's no SGOTM turns for another week. We haven't heard from Peglegasus in several days; should I assume his computer is packed away and he'd be OK with exchanging? (If we don't hear from him.)

Yes definately, assume away. Otherwise this is never going to get anywhere.
Though unless my understanding of time zones has gone missing, Peanut is already in bed for the night, and won't meet the 12 hour limit.
Anyways, Happy Holiday Steve.
So what day you are going to be back?
M

Thanks! Yeah, I don't think Peanut can be done before I'll be gone (just one of the IF's). Back late on Oct. 7th. Perhaps available on Oct. 8th.

I will try to check in, if I can find an internet computer somewhere.

well, hello all. i'm officially moved and the computer is up and running. have lots to do over the next few days but i'll be checking in, and may even be able to play some turns! looks like you all have been doing well.

I'm off for the airport; see you in a week if not sooner! Good Luck, All!

Pre-turn : Looks great. We may even recover from my inexpert placement of Utica … maybe …

IBT : A brave but doomed barb wanders in from the western mists.

1475 BC : A Numi-Merc moves to intercept the Barb. Workers move to mine grass between Carthage & Utica. Theveste workers keep on workin’. Carthage simply reeks of molten bronze as the huge dude near the beach gets bigger. “Hannibal had better know what he is doing” the cynical townsfolk mutter to themselves. Caesar won’t trade.

IBT : The barb stops and camps for a while.

1450 BC : Our northern Numi-Merc wanders south and spots a barb horse posing on a hill and trying to look menacing. He laughs at the feeble barbarian. The other Numi-Merc closes in on the camping barb.

IBT : That horse gives the Numi-Merc some easy spear practice. Two more horses show up North and West of Utica.

1425 BC : Carthage grows – time for some luxuries. We mine a bit more around Theveste before packing the work gangs off to Leptis Magna. The Numi-Mercs move closer for some more live-spear training exercises (i.e. before ammunition was invented).

IBT : Those cowardly barbarians – they froze in fear cowering on the mountain and in the forest.

1400 BC : Nothing ! We search for the barb camp.

IBT : A horse dies under our mighty spear. The barb gets inspired and moves in on our workers. Celebrate ! We are now clever folk who can read maps ! Great !

1375 BC : Our scientists start struggling to learn the art of putting pages of writing together to make books. All barbs dispatched almost effortlessly. And … we have spotted two barb camps. The work gangs set off for Leptis under escort (just in case). Caesar offers a mere 40g for Map Making. He won’t trade The Wheel or Warrior Code for anything. The miserly old @#$^%@$ !! Theveste switches to galley.

IBT : Both Numi-Mercs are attacked – unsuccessfully.

1350 BC : We collect a tidy 25g from one camp. The other will be cleaned out soon. Caesar now knows Map Making – we beat him by one turn ! No wonder he wouldn’t trade.

IBT : A barb galley appears on the west coast. Crikey they those barb tribes can build boats quickly!

1325 BC : Utica produces a settler and starts a Numi-Merc. Our palace expands. The settler heads for the legendary site 1b under escort. Carthage hits pop 7. We cut luxuries & hire an entertainer. This cuts a turn off Literature and does not affect the Colossus.

IBT : Nothing at all !

1300 BC : We start mining around Leptis. Also, another handy 25g from the barbarians.

IBT : A few barb galleys paddling about.

1275 BC : We own a monstrous big Bronze Dude near the Carthage Waterfront. Strangely, he is earning cash from day one ! The townsfolk shake their heads in wonder but it looks like ol’ Hannibal was not quite so loopy after all. We settle “Numero Uno del Bee”, fully expecting the townsfolk to rise up in outraged revolt and vote a name change. It starts a Granary as a Library pre-build. Carthage starts a worker to cull surplus population. Caesar still won’t trade.

IBT : Nothing !

1250 BC : Carthage starts another worker. Theveste builds a galley and starts another. We sail SW looking for any possible ocean crossing points. Our Numi-Mercs stumble on another barb camp ripe for harvesting.

Gratuitous advice : A bit more work around Leptis, then road up to Numero Uno del Bee

Over to you Captain Peglegasus !

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_BC1250_01.SAV)

Good turn set Peanut. I always enjoy reading your write ups.

Did you try to sell maps to the Romans? Will they sell theirs? Since the island is so small I don't think either nation's map is worth that much, so our WM will not help us in tech trading. I would sell it and milk Rome for gold and updated Roman maps every turn. Over time the 1 GP you typically can get every time a tile is improved or a new ocean tile revealedadds up.

I would also like to see one or two more NMerc's for barb control. From this point on they are going to be poping up quicker than two NMerc's can keep up.

After Carthage finishes this second worker I would suggest either a grainary or a galley. The grainary will set up a worker factory (very nice!), but the galley may open up new contacts. As we close in on lit we will want to start a Library pre-build.

Marvellous Peanut.
Good suggestions Keith.
I'd like to see some galleys out and about asap.
Peglegasus, can you take it?
M

hate to do this but i have to pass my turns. too much going on with all the unpacking and such. looks good so far guys.

edit: our line on the score graph sure is unusual.

Yes it is Peg, I think everyone else founded their first city earlier, but we picked a better place. Let's hope the benefit accumulates with time.
So, got it.
Be warned Keith, it will be your turn soon, as steve is out of town.
M

HELP!
The galley isn't behaving normal. It says in box it has movement 6/6, but will only move two squares, ie after one move it says 3/6, second move and done.
Surely this isn't right?!
BTW, I've just checked and in-game civilopedia says galleys movement rate is 6!
Could anyone check if it's just mine, or what?

Mathilde - I think it has differential movement - less in coast, more in sea and ocean set up for the recent GOTM scenarios. The game announcement page should tell more.

Oh, okay. Thanks Peanut.
Wasn't familiar with that set-up.
That propably means suicide galley runs should be worth a try.

I know I'm the one who's supposed to decide when it's my turn, but...
We've just met some more neighbours, dealt some techs and now Ceasar is demanding Ceremonial burial as tribute. He's polite, advisor says armies are about the same size. I don't want to give it him, but should I?
M

Mathilda don't even think twice, give it to him. What do we gain by holding it? If we are at war with Rome we can't sell it to him. CB is a worthless tech. Giving it to Rome will also make his attitude more favorable towards us. Small price to pay.

Who are the new neighors?

New neighbours are Persia to west of Rome.
OK, I'll give it to him. Just so goes against my grain.

Pre-turn (1250 BC)
Change entertainer in Cartahage to tax-collector. Instead of having 2-2-1-1 we now have population of 1-3-1-1

IBT: Barb kills himself on NMerc.
Barb horse goes after undefended workers near LM!

turn 1 - 1225:
Cathage finishes worker stars a galley.
Worker from Cartahage goes to NUdB.

NMerc on the west coast breaks up barb camp.
Move warrior to protect workers and pray to the sun and the moon that he'll be strong enough to defend the workers against the barb horse.

IBT: horse decides to head for the mountains instead.
Ceasar tells us off for our galley being in his territorial waters, we promise to go.

turn 2 - 1200 BC:
not much, just the panic about galley movement, see above posts.

IBT: not much

Turn 3 - 1175 BC:
Encouraged by the info from Peanut Galley heads for unknown waters and finds : PERSIA!
Xerxes is willing to give Warrior code , ceremonial burial and 12 gold for our map making. We'll have it.
They also know the wheel, but won't give it with any other tech,
so we'll see again in 3, when we know literature.

IBT: Ceasar demands Ceremonial burial, WE give it to him. (see posts 86 - 88 above)

turn 4 - 1150BC:
Cartahage finishes galley and starts granary as prebuild for library.
Galley that found persia sinks.
work around LM, one worker goes south.
NMerc has healed and goes after barb horse.
Galley from Carthage heads out to east.

IBT nothing

turn 5 - 1125BC ( is it really, it feels like i've played 25 turns)
NMerc kills barbhorse

IBT nothing

turn 6 - 1100BC:
Literature! Sell it to Xerxes for Mysticism and 48 gold (all he had).
Sell it to Ceasar for the wheel and 132 gold.
Ceasar knows horseback and we'll buy it from him with mysticism and 50 gold.
So towards republic next, decide to do laws first(due in ten), before philosophy, as believe AI will go the other way.
Sorry if that went wrong.
Change production to libraries. LM loses 11 shileds!
Apart from temp town Utica, which carries on with NMercs.
Oh, and as suspected, we are on a horse-free island.

IBT our galley is sank by a barb galley, oh the injustice!

turn 7 - 1075BC:
LM finishes library, starts temple.
Code of laws now due in 8 :)
Utica finishes NMerc, starts another.
No barbs in sight, apart from that darned galley.

IBT Oh goody, a barb horse in the north, turned up in front of our northern patroll.

turn 8 - 1050BC:
Take out the barbhorse. Where do they get them anyway, on this horse-free island of ours?

IBT a barb, no horse, turns up in the north

turn 9 - 1025 BC:
Nortern patroll NMerc fortifies to recover from the horse.

IBT nothing

turn 10 - 1000BC:
NMerc takes out barb, we can see their camp now.
That's about it.

Neither of our friends has made any more discoveries.
Xerxes has horses btw, but no iron.


Pretty quiet all told. We need some new galleys, as I mananaged to sink the first two.
Nothing really worth a screenie.
Here it is Keith - over to you (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_BC1000_01.SAV)

I have it.

Good progress and canny trading Mathilde. Better luck with the galleys than I usually get - my galleys generally manage to explore a few tiles of open ocean followed by a permanent encounter with sea floor mud. Good question about the barb horses though.

Pre-turn:
Everything looks in order, except we were loosing gold on the research slider. I moved it down by 10% and we are still on track for CoL in 5 but we get +1 gold.

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 1: 975 BC
Workers finish improving plain and move to hill near LM.

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 2: 950 BC
Carthage finishes Library and starts Great Lighthouse. I thought about a Temple, but the five turns needed to build it might mean we would not get the GLH, besides the next shield will be wasted to corruption in Carthage. I realize that the GLH will start a golden age, but I think the contacts are worth it. If the team does not like this move we can switch to the GL. I also moved the cow to Utica because we don’t need Carthage to grow any more right now. The new Library in Carthage has shaved a turn off our research time by moving the slider up. We are now at -3 gold.

IBT:
Roman galley leaves Antium and heads north. I beat it has a settler in it.

Turn 3: 925 BC
Utica completes NMerc and starts another. We are able to move the research slider down 10% and save 3 gold.

IBT:
Roman galley continues N.

Turn 4: 900 BC
Complete CoL and start Phil in 4. Take out barb camp up north.

IBT:
Roman galley continues N.

Turn 5: 875 BC
Move on of LM citizens to woods to gain one shield. It’s temple will now be completed next turn.

IBT:
Roman galley continues N and a Roman archer is heading our way as well.

Turn 6: 850 BC
LM completes temple and starts a granary. I debated a Hanging Garden pre-build, but a granary will allow some team discussion and we can switch at that time.

IBT:
Same.

Turn 7 825 BC
Switch Theveste to temple as we need expansion there now. There is no place for the next citizen.

IBT:
Two Roman archers are converging on Theveste. Very interesting.

Turn 8 800 BC
Anticipating a possible war Utica complete a NMerc and starts an archer. LM has the option of switching to Barracks next turn. We have completed Philo and start Republic.

IBT:
Sure enough Rome move in on Theveste. Roman galley deposits a settle/spear to the north.

Turn 9: 775 BC
Dead give away Rome is going to attack, the diplomatic window says leave or declare war. I asked them to leave and they declare war. What pigs! I say we sow Rome with salt! LM switches to Barracks. One warrior attacks Roman archer and only gets himself killed. The other warrior move into Theveste. NMerc is on the way for reinforcement.

IBT:
We lost two warriors at Theveste.

Turn 10: 750 BC
Shadow Roman settler/spear pair. Hope to send archers against it rather than NMerc in hope that we can delay GA. Warrior attacks redlined archer and dies! Theveste has completed Temple and starts walls.

After action report:
Combat has not been kind to us. It looks like we cannot avoid an early GA. I still say we do what we can to avoid an early GA. Perhaps Rome will lose interest in this war. If a GA does start lets take out Rome’s iron and maybe take Rome itself as our fifth city. I would raze everything else.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_BC0750_01.SAV

Looking a bit sticky Keith, only two towns LM and Utica that will be available for building archers any time soon. Carthage is that far with GLH and NUdB with library that don't seem worth changing to anything.
Wouldn't Ceasar deal, when we got Code of Laws of Philosophy?
What did he research?
M

Rome really can't hurt us, other than starting a GA before we are ready. When we take out Rome's new northern city he should be ready to deal.

Looking back I guess we should have had at least one NMerc in Theveste. To the AI it looked like easy picking and we tempted Rome into war.

Good progress KL, but .... hmmm ... a war, eh ? Never trust a Casear, I always say (or at least I have just started to always say it). This timid ol'Peanut ain't too good on ancient age fighting, but here goes. Guess this is a "got-it". Hang on folks, the figure-head has the wheel so no telling where we will end up !

Oh my, how difficult it is to wait...


and wait....

24 + 72 hours is like forever.

Ah Mathilde. The enthusiasm of youth.

Sorry for keeping you waiting.

Family birthday + assignment due = slight delay.

Tonight all will be revealed.

civ_steve, well-tanned (uh, in a lobster-like manner) and rested, checking back in!

I just reviewed the thread but haven't loaded any of the saves yet. Lots of good news - Colossus, Map-Making, and contact with Persia. But being at war with Ceasar really looks like trouble to me! His legions completely outclass our best offensive units, and match our best defensive unit, which also causes us an early GA. And there's a lot of Mountains; if he gets his legions in there we'll only be able to defend around LM and Theveste, since a 2 attack vs a 3 defense in the mountains is quick suicide. We need to get back to peace with him quickly, and its best for us to fight around the grasslands just South of Theveste (if I'm remembering the terrain correctly.)

Mathilda: looks like you know all about differential naval movement now! The GOTM reference thread holds a link to the original discussion regarding this type of naval movement. Each ship gets 2x the original movement points (e.g. Galleys get 6), and expends 3 for Coast, 2 for Sea and 1 for Ocean. Only moving Coast-Coast restricts you to two spaces moved. Going Coast-Sea-Coast or some combination of Coast and Sea, ending on a Coast, gives you a safe 3 spaces moved. And starting on Coast, going Sea-Ocean-Sea-Coast, gives a safe 4 spaces moved!

I'll load the last save or two and check things out. BTW, it should be 24 hours to say 'Got It', and 48 hours to play and post. Peanut??? (never mind, I see you already answered Mathilda)

Ah Mathilde. The enthusiasm of youth.
:lol:

Me. Young? :lol:

Just get on with it :mad:




I'm sorry, I don't mean any offence. Take your time.


Good to have you back Steve.
M

Pre-turn : At war, eh ? Well, this brave little Peanut is not going to put up with that nasty ‘ol Caesar picking on us ! We’re going out to fight – Death or Glory ! … or will it be Paste or Glory ?

Theveste is going to need those walls now ! Those Romans are beating at the gates ! So sacrifice, my good citizens ! Sacrifice ! Luxuries up, and all hands to the mines at Carthage. Got to finish that Lighthouse ! Ok – here goes !

IBT : More Romans approach Theveste.

730 BC : Make Archers ! the cry goes out from Peanut HQ. A NM kills an archer on the road to Theveste – may as well have our GA now as we will get it as soon as Theveste is attacked. Our NM waits for reinforcements before taking on the settler and spear near Utica. Reinforcements to Theveste – a warrior from Leptis.

IBT : Romans advance to the walls of Theveste – a warrior and archer.

710 BC : We start a road from Utica to Leptis to speed our troop movements. Reinforcements arrive in Theveste and we have fun killing the Romans outside Theveste’s shiny new city walls.

IBT : Those Roman swine settle Hispalis on OUR doorstep. The insolence ! We will deal with them soon enough.

690 BC : Just waiting for those troops to gather in Theveste. Our wounded NMs rest up, while a Warrior climbs a mountain to be a look-out for Romans.

IBT : A few more Romans archers appear in the distance – but still no Legions ! What the … ? Is Caesar silly ? A Spear shows up north of Antium obviously looking to stir trouble.

670 BC : A NM heads for Antium via the mountains – maybe he can pick off that spear or at least cause trouble. The back road from Utica to Antium is complete.

IBT : The archers approach Theveste and by strange coincidence stand on the graves of their fallen comrades. How fitting !

650 BC : The archers are now having a welcome drink and hors d’oeuvres with Jupiter and Mars or whatever it is that expired Romans get up to. Our elite NM single-handedly crushes the blight that is Hispalis, sinking a galley as he sacks the town collecting 7 gold pieces. Alas no promotion to leader status … The troops gather in Theveste.

IBT : No more Romans in sight …

630 BC : Troops gather in Theveste.

IBT : Our NM wandering near Antium distracts an archer coming from Pompeii.

610 BC : Our brave expedition of 1 NM, 3 archers and 2 workers heads out towards Pompeii & Rome. The Roman spear is killed by an archer passing by on the way to the front.

IBT : Our NM is killed by the second archer out of Pompeii.

590 BC : The rest of the force plus another NM from Theveste marches to Pompeii. The workers build a road.

IBT : Nothing.

570 BC : Barb killed outside NUdB. An archer dies attacking Pompeii. Two spears there - so the rest of the force picks off archers converging on the scene instead. The NM is heading for the Roman iron.

IBT : One more roman archer shows up.

550 BC : A bit of regrouping our battered forces. The NM sits on the iron, peeps over the fence, and … Rome has a Legionary. Oh dear.

Gratuitous advice : I have made a bit of a mess of our forces on the front, they may need some more expert attention. However we have taken the war to Rome and razed one city. Hopefully we can cut the Roman iron next turn. We learn Republic next turn so spending can be cut back. As I said earlier – when the figurehead steers the ship – watch out !

Over to you Captain Peglegasus !
The 550BC Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_BC0550_01.SAV)

Alright, in for a penny, in for a pound ... of Peanuts! The AI is always amazing at how poorly it develops!

Peglegasus: you can reduce the Science rate to 80% and still complete Republic in 1 Turn, saves a little gold. There's a Warrior in Theveste that can move forward and fortify on the wounded NumMerc/Archer just outside of Pompeii's culture; this might help those two wounded units survive and this might make a decent rally point for our troops. One more thing - we still have 10 turns or so on our GA, so we should be Republic as quick as possible; when we learn it, we get two shots at a quick Revolution if we choose 'Show Me the Big Picture', go to F1, and start the Revolution there! See how long the anarchy period is (the F1 advisor will tell you) - if it's longer than 4 turns, you'll get a 2nd chance to start a revolution after leaving the F1 screen; if it's shorter than 4 turns, I'd leave it be and say that Anarchy is fine when it gives you an option. (While in F1, check out our cities - MPs don't work during Anarchy, so you'll need to make some Entertainers!)

Good job on Rome, Peanut! After pillaging the Iron, should our NumMerc fortify and try to hold out, or should he head back to our forces.

And how far should we go against Rome. Having our own source of Iron would be incredibly useful; according to Mad-Bax in the maintenance thread, he has made Iron inexhaustible, so we would never lose it. I'd prefer to be 1 space NW of the current Rome location - it gets more River space and both Cows within it's radius; destroying Rome pretty much means take Ceasar entirely out.

Also, I see that Persia has an extra Horse to trade (which was the case for the civ that was there in the initial game as well.) I think getting Great Lighthouse, and getting some Harbors built (by Persia as well) should allow us to trade for the Horses, so we'd have both items needed for Knights, eventually.

Those are my inputs: Peglegasus, you're UP!!

(BTW, we are definitely going slowly compared to other teams. Should we try to set up a schedule a week at a time, assigning players to a given night to speed things up? This is a 5CC, so turn time shouldn't be an issue; I think it's the coordination between turns that is taking a long time.)

Two more thoughts -

1.) We learn Republic in 1 and finish Great Lighthouse in 4. Being in Republic might cut the Great Lighthouse finish to 3 turns, but I'm sure we'll have more than 1 turn of Anarchy so learning Republic means a delay in finishing GLight. If we want to get it as fast as possible, I'd suggest delaying Republic to finish research in 5 turns, that way we finish GLight as quickly as possible and still get 2 shots at a fast revolution. This means a delay in becoming Republic (and a few more turns of our GA lost in despotism), but we have so much invested in Great Lighthouse, and I think it will really help us out, so I think finishing it quickly outweighs delaying becoming Republic for a few turns.

2.) I've tested out the Forbidden Palace concept; on a standard sized map you have the option to build the FP as soon as you have 8 cities. Since we're at war with Rome I had this sneaky idea - sign peace in exchange for 3 of his small cities, convert Leptis Magnus's build to Forbidden Palace, then abandon the 3 Roman cities. This will give us a centrally located FP and diminish Rome's capabilities also (and Ceasar will probably focus on rebuilding those cities before coming after us!) We might take a reputation hit by abandoning cities with foreign citizens in them (if anyone else ever makes contact with Rome), but I think there's enough time in the game to overcome that hit.

That's my update. Peglegasus, can you take it?

Do you believe that Ceasar will give three! cities in a peace deal?

I think we need that iron. My suggestion is continue the war against Rome until we get control of the iron either by destroying Rome and building a new city or taking Rome itself. I also like Steves idea about asking for cities in a peace deal.

My suggestion is on the turn we raze Rome we have a settler in place to build a "New Rome" and ask for 2 cities. That will bring us to the 8 total. As Mathilda said it might be hard to get Rome to go for 3 cities.

Actually, Ceasar will give up FOUR cities right now! Here's what I uncovered while testing the current save:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Peanut_sg4_bc550F4Peace.JPG

I didn't suggest it because we need to (at least) pillage the Iron before signing peace. So, we could pillage Iron, sign peace, take 4 cities, start FP, Abandon 4 cities, finish GLight, learn Republic, switch, and come back in 20 turns ... OR ... pillage Iron, assemble SOD, cut swath of destruction towards Rome, finish GLight, finish Settler in Carthage, learn Republic, switch, raze Rome, sign peace gaining 2+ cities (if still available), and start FP. Definite advantage in option 2 is we essentially finish Rome off before we're a Republic so no issue of War Weariness and whatever's left should be easy to finish off later, so I'm leaning towards Keith's option. Definite Disadavantage is ... our SOD better do the job!! We should reduce our Research rate to 10% (10 turns to finish Republic) until we get the Settler out of Carthage.

Wau!
I don't think I'll ever learn to undestand the AI's logic behind their war declarations.
Yes, I think plan two will be more productive. I don't ever remember the AI chanching their mind about peace deal offering in that way, so that they'd subsequently give less.
What I mean is if they'd give four towns now, I'm fairly confident they'd still give at least two after we'd destroy one more of theirs.

Peglegasus, it's been 24 since Peanut's turnlog. I'll play it in about 3 hours from now, if you don't post 'got it' before then. :whipped:

M

You'll probably have to destroy Pompeii and Rome, although if you leave a NumMerc in Theveste, you might be OK leaving Pompeii as it is. (I don't like having an enemy city behind me with most of my units advancing through enemy territory.)

3 more hours sounds good; I'll look for a Save file later today if Peglegasus doesn't post a 'got it' :)

edit: irrelevant

Preturn 550BC:
Adjust science slider to 10%, Republic due in 10.
Move warrior from thevste to defend wounded archer - nmerc pair.

IBT: a couple of roman archers running south of Rome

turn1 530BC:
Pillage the iron
3 archers + warrior piled in front of pompeii
3/4 archer takes out barb horse in the north

IBT: Still archers running around, no attacks though

turn2 510BC:
Pompeii, defended by two reg spears, destroyed by our magnificient armies!
We lost one archer, libetrated 7 gold and captured a worker.

IBT: Celts got the pyramids. Barb horse kills our archer in the north.
roman spear-settler pair seem to be heading for spot formely known as Pompeii.
must be some good future resource around there.

turn3 490BC:
Nothing really, just healing and gathering troops.
mm Carthage in order to get pop groeth there the same turn the next settler comes out.
GLight still due in one.

IBT:

turn4 470BC:
We have the lighthouse. romans and Persians switch to great library.
Science to 20%, republic due in 3, settler in 2
We kill two roman archers

IBT: not much

turn5 450BC:
NUdB, produces archer, and I decide to start a galley next
as I don't think the next archer would get down south in time for this war.
just one roman archer this turn.

IBT: a couple of the red archers approach, but sitll no attacks.
the red settler has walked right up to our archer who was still healing where Pompeii used to be :)

turn6 430BC:
we now have a stack of 8 next to Rome .
our archer of pompeii obliges, kills the settler defending spear and
sends to two new workers to road building duties.
One of the incoming archers kills the roman one approaching from antium.

hmmm.... the settler from carth isn't going to get there for another 7 turns. Takes too long in my opinion.
so I'll rush a settler from Thevste. the one from crth can then join Thevste.

IBT: Roman city of Rome has finished the great library! the fools. tempted to keep it now, mind.
Yes I think I will. If you Steve think that shifting the town by one is worth it you can always do it in your turn.

turn7 410BC:
Here goes - Rome:
OK, so there was the one legionaire and one spear. the legionaire managed to take out 5! of our troops
creating a great leader for Rome. Fortunately, our sixth one was one too many for him. Rome is ours.
we kill one more roman archer nearby, just 'cause we can than talk to Ceasar.
Peace deal with Ceasar, we get 3 towns and 100 gold.
He's got poly as well, but won't give it with two towns.
Change producion in LM to FP! - Excellent plan Steve.
Sell the barracks in Utica and abandon it.
Abandon the three ex-Roman towns.
Join the settler in Thevste back in. That was completely stupid waste of ... oh well.
The one from Carth is still on his way south.

IBT: Xerxes comes demanding gold(46), we give, we have 599 atm.
We buy poly from Ceasar with philo and 19 (of his) gold.
We sell the republic to Xerxes for 182 (of our) gold, he didn't have anything else, won't give gpt.
At least if he's in revolt same time as us, won't come bothering.
F1 -> start the revolt. YES YES YES - 1 turn anarchy!

turn8 390BC
****ed up the citizen mood change ibt, only managed carth - sorry guys.
I do know how to do it, just lost consentration.
So - not much, just spreading the troops. Oh, broke up the barb camp from north.

IBT: nothing

turn9 370BC:
We are now a republic.
Other than that - sod all.
Oh, the research at 20% leaves the economy still growing,
but math due in 11, with 40% it's only -9 and 5 turns. I think we can afford it.
Btw. I'm not keeping the great library so that we don't have to research at all,
I just thought we might be able to get maybe one free tech with it. Education if nothing else.

IBT: nope

turn10 350BC
Thevste in revolt, wanting luxuries! outrage! I just checked. Now when I look, three citizens, all content.
Am I missing something here?

Rome is being starved down. The spare settler is in Thevste - maybe you want to take him to Rome, or change Romes location after all.
I don't mind at all even if you change all the builds in our empire, Steve.
I didn't really have any great thread of thought where we were going next.
Persian resources and luxuries are not available yet.
Rome has just been connscted to the rest of the empire.
Over to you Steve (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_BC0350_01.SAV)

Sounds like an awesome set of turns, Mathilda! I'll be playing a bit later today.

We wont be able to trade with Persia until both sides have a Harbor! No Horses until then. Focus on next set of turns is exploration - get some Galleys out taking advantage of Great Lighthouse and differential naval movement.

Great Library - hmm, I suspect we will be driving research from here out so I doubt we will get any free techs from it; Rome remains a flip risk, although my thought is to move the Palace down to Rome once FP is finished; a centralized FP at Leptis Magna should keep LM, Theveste, Carthage and UnodelB working well, so a remote Palace should be OK. Plan should also be - take out Rome for good in 20 turns :D Swords should do just fine, although Ceasar might have a few Legions around from starting them first.

OK, I've got it. Peglegasus - you've not played yet; I'd like to see you play in when you have time.

Sounds like an awesome set of turns, Mathilda!
Cheers Steve. Overall I was quite pleased. :king:

Peglegasus- I hope I didn't upset you by nipping in there.
Let's hear from you.

There are a couple of galleys under way.
Also, we do have quite a lot of forces atm, so might as well use them on Ceasar.
M

Something else to chew on; check out this picture:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Peanut_sg4_bc350_South.JPG

Those wool spaces in the Hills are phenomenal! They're each generating 3 Food and 5 Shields (Rome has mined them and they'll generate 4 shields when our GA is over). This makes 5a a potential production powerhouse. 5b brings Iron a bit closer (just outside of the city's useful radius), and trades out a Wool and in a Cattle. I'd suggest re-roading the Iron space, upgrading some Warriors to Swordsmen, then building at 5a (abandoning Rome); this can wait until we see if we get any Techs from the Great Library, but these Wools and Hills are a real powerhouse location that we should eventually use.

What does everyone else think? Keep Rome and its Iron; build at 5a for maximum production and colonize the Iron (and protect it), or 5b for slightly less production but more access to the Iron?

Allways a suprise up your sleeve?
5a for production for me.
It feels a bit nerve wrecking to spread the empire so thin, but I suppose we'll be able to defend the whole island if need be.
If we want to be peaceful though, it might be trickier the more spread out we are. When the other civs get big enough boats, ther'll be settlers on them and they'll want to come and put their tent up between our towns. Then their borders expand and before we know it the resource(s) or luxuries aren't ours anymore.
Still I'll vote 5a.
M

Mathilda great turn set! I too like the idea of 5a. I would also like to see a city 3 tiles NE of Rome. Razing both Rome and Antium. When these two new cities grow to 100 culture they will cover the majority of the souther half of the island. I would bet there is something good under all that jungle. This would mean we would have to abandon one more city. But it is too good a sight to give up. What do the rest of you think?

Mathilda, we don't want to use those forces until the 20 turns is up. Remember our victory goals. The one thing we can't do is break any deals.

I was under the impression that AI don't do suicide galleyes ie, Rome doesn't know anyone else yet. So if we take them out completely before they do, they won't be able to tell any of the others about us abandoning their newly captured cities either.
Then breaking the peacedeal with them is of no consequence.

I too did wonder about having two cities in the south and abandoning NUdB.
Not sure though.

That's an intriguing suggestion! The jungle spot 3 NE from Rome's current position would eventually gain 2 Wools and an Iron space, making it a bigger production location than 1b. Also, it gains a couple of river spaces and the lakes, so more basic food and commerce than 1b. And it is adjacent to fresh water so a free aquaduct would compensate us for the loss of the Library we've already built. I think it will eventually link up culturally with 5a and Theveste, creating a large Carthage cultural zone in the center of the island.

The drawback is we'd need to colonize the Spice to keep it (not that big a deal), and we have a bigger zone in the North to protect to keep the Ivory for ourselves. On the whole I think the new location is a positive, and we should drop 1b eventually for 'duh du daaaahhh' site 6!

BTW Mathilda, we can't tell if Rome has made outside contact or not. With differential naval movement, there might be a way to safely cross over to other landmasses. I don't see much of a downside to wait 20 turns; Rome isn't going to catch up to us and we'll be sure of not ruining our reputation.

I add my Amen to what Steve said about war with Rome. All we will lose for waiting 20 turns is some gold. If Rome has contact with another civ, an early war could cost us the game.

The productivity of the land to the south is so great that I think it more than compensates for the loses up north. In time as our culture grows we will regain some those northern lands. With all teams going for the varient the added tiles this will bring under our control may be the difference in winning.

OK, I've completed my set of turns:

Turn 0, 350 BC
Reassign Workers; to connect Iron; no point in improving 1b any better
Change Carhage from Galley to Granary production; we can use the boost
Move Rome defenders out of Rome; can't afford to lose them if it flips
Plan to downsize military to about 20 units (currently 28)
Set Research to 80%; Math in 2 turns, -42 gpt

(IBT Barb Horseman kills self on Archer in North
Rome moving some Archers and Spearmen about)

Turn 1, 330 BC
Galley from 1b; another on the way
GA is ending; Join Worker to 1b (size 6); Lux to 30%
Set Reseach to 70%; Math in 1 Turn, -48 gpt
Clear Barb Warrior in North

(IBT nothing)

Turn 2, 310 BC
Hmm, still didn't learn Math (GA ending complicates the calculations)
Set Research to 10%, Math in 1, -3 gpt
Start Disbanding Archers at Theveste (Working themselves to Death on our new Library there)

(IBT nothing)

Turn 3, 290 BC
Learn Math, start on Currency, 70%, -42 gpt
Join 2 Workers to LM; FP in 8 (now -38 gpt)

(IBT nothing)

Turn 4, 270 BC
Iron is connected
Worker is roading up to Ivory
Carthage finishes Granary, starts on Worker
1B finishes Galley, starts Another
Rome finishes Worker, starts Another
Galley 1 finally can see Culture to West - Persia ... and someone else!

(IBT nothing)

Turn 5, 250 BC
Carthage fin Worker, beg Another (set for 10 Shields, +8 food)
We contact India (wearing strangely Carthage looking brown garb)
They are behind in Tech; trade them Republic for 36 Gold (all they have)

(IBT nothing)

Turn 6, 230 BC
Carthage fin Worker (size 5), start on Gally (set for 12 shields, +2 food, grow in 1)
Explore Indian Coast

(IBT nothing)

Turn 7, 210 BC
MM Carthage (size 6), fin Galley in 2, +3 food, grow in 4
Join Worker to LM, now size 10; FP in 3
1B finishes Galley, head out and sinks a Barb

(IBT Rome founds Byzantium on the ruins of an earlier city)

Turn 8, 190 BC
Get to lay some sod in front of our Palace
Form Colony on Southern Wool; Lux to 20%; Research to 40%; Curr in 2, -12 gpt
Change Rome's build to Settler

(IBT two Barb Galleys try to intercept our Galley at North end of island

Turn 9, 170 BC
Carthage builds Galley, size 6, set to Grow in 1 with 11 Shields; Worker next
Our Northern Galley takes to Seas (Barbs wont attack in Sea space)
Form Colony on Ivory (3rd Luxury)

(IBT Barb galleys hold back)

Turn 10, 150 BC
Carthage builds Worker; Another is next; +8 food, 10 Shields
Leptis Magna finishes Forbidden Palace! Start on a couple 2 turn Swordsmen
1B finishes a Galley and begins another
Learn Currency, start Construction at 50% (10 turns; -16 gpt; Treasury is at 280)
Carthage Galley heads across Ocean, and is one space shy of making the crossing (hope he survives! If not, the safe way across is revealed)

End of Turnlog

To recap - FP is finished in LM, Colonies formed on Ivory and Wool; Math and Currency Learned; Contact made with India, they are behind; Persia has Monarchy and we have Math and Currency; Galleys are out exploring

Carthage has finished it's long awaited Granary; I've been doing a Galley over 3 turns, then 2 turns of Worker builds, and have cycled from Size 5, to Size 6 and back. Looking at Carthage, if we Irrigate the Mined Cow and one of the BG's, Carthage is a 1 turn Worker factory. I suggest we build 1 more Worker there now, then a Galley, and set up the 1 turn Worker factory to operate. The we can crank out Workers to bulk Theveste, LM, and eventually Carthage to size 12, and have a few left over to build up 5A and 6 later on.

LM is set to build 2 turn Swordsmen for phase II of "Mop Up Ceasar". We have 4 Vet Swordsmen heading South; I think another 3 or so should be sufficient (along with the Archers we already have in place); LM could build 3 or upgrade the 2 Regular Warriors currently in LM and build another Vet then maybe start on Marketplace. I disbanded about 5-6 Archers after the first Roman War; when Ceasar is finally done in, I'd suggest getting rid of the rest to get our unit count down.

Theveste is about to finish it's Library; the FP in LM has reduced Corruption and Waste in Theveste by about 50%! After Library, I'd have it build a Harbor; that way it will be ready to expand as Carthage spits out Workers and we will have a trading port once we find someone else with a harbor. Then either a Marketplace, or more Galleys if we need to replace lost ones.

1B is just churning out Galleys. We should have 3-4 exploring to both East and West I'd say (so 6-8 total); then maybe it should build some Workers or Settlers just before we abandon it for 5A or 6.

Rome is set to build a Settler. My thought is that we rush it just before declaring War; this Settler can eventually settle at the Jungle site 3 space NE of Current Rome; the other Settler is with the Archer Stack just outside of Rome, and can move to 5A in one turn; perhaps 5A gets founded just after Veii is razed (so shortly into the next Punic War).

Construction is set to be learned in 10 turns. We may want to slow this down a bit, but not too much; I'd like to have most of the remaining contacts before we learn Construction. This gives the Great Library an initial chance to work for us. After we've made contacts (and the Galleys are out and about right now, looking for the AI), we can finish research of Construction, gift the Scientific civs into the MidAges, get Monarchy from Persia, and either get some of their Free Techs from the Great Library or from trading Monarchy and Republic for them (hopefully). After that I don't think we'll get much from it, and we can make plans to Abandon Rome.

That's my general thoughts for the near term, and for each of our cities. How does that sound?

The 150 BC Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_BC0150_01.SAV)

Keith - You're UP!!

Good work Steve, very disciplined.
I'm glad it's not me having to not attack for twenty turns ;)

What I forgot to mention / ask last night about my turn was how did Rome manage to get Great Library? They done it two turns from when it said they'd started it. After we finshed the Great Lighthouse, I understood that both Rome and Persia changed their builds to GrtLib. But Rome isn't coastal!

Good luck with the leader fishing Keith, if we want to shift the palace south.

Keith - you was playing a test game of 5CC, how did that go? Any other thoughts from that than - was it Sisctine Chapel?

Thanks, Mathilda! We may be able to build the Palace from scratch, without a Leader. I'd assume no more than 50% Waste, so 5A should be able to generate 8-10 Shields a turn, once it's bulked up with a bunch of Workers from Carthage. Our Palace is only worth about 300 shields, so 30-40 turns should do it. (If we get a Leader, fine; we'll get it much faster; As far as MidAges GW go, neither Sun-Tzu's or Leo's does much for us - probably Sistine Chapel is most desireable; we will definitely want Copernicus' and Newton's in Carthage, but that can come later and it can build them. So a leader to be used to move the Palace sounds pretty reasonable, if we get one.)

Just checked prior saves: Rome was building Pyramids as early as 1500 BC, so they had a lot of shields stored up; must have switched them after they were finished by the other civ.

Switched to what? Celts got the pyramids in 510BC, Rome started Great libary in 470BC. What did they do with them (shields) for that one turn in between?
edit: Just occured to me, I can propably go and check it out - hold on.
edit2: no, unfortunately I haven't got that save. So they could have gone from the pyramids to the Great Library, but the foreign advisor / cultural advisor / whoever it is that informs me of wonder initiations didn't say anything till two turns after the pyramids were finished, when we finished the great lighthouse.
I know - just get over it, it's not important.
M

Good job Steve! I got the file but will be unable to play for at least 12 hours. If Pegleg is back at sea continuing his pillaging Civ3 ways he is welcome to take this next ten turns and then I will pick up after him. I will post an "I am playing" when I start.

I think we are playing a great game. I am looking forward to reading the first set of spoilers to see how the other teams are doing.

As for my test game I lost interest in it. It was set at too easy a level. I have been mainly playing CGOM5.

As for my test game I lost interest in it. It was set at too easy a level. I have been mainly playing CGOM5.

isn't cgotm 5 at regent? ;)

i must say that it looks like you all have been doing a great job. i think i'll finally get to play some this week. mornings should be good for me. i haven't been able to finish a gotm since byzantines! the new house is beautiful though. it's taken a lot of work to get here.

At least in cgotm5 I am playing against other player's scores. But I have to admit it has been a very uninteresting game. I am an age ahead of the AI and can just about go for any victory I want. The problem I am having with these GOTMs is maximizing my score. I am not playing up to my potential in that area.

I will begin playing this evening. Looks like I still have 6 turns to wait until the peace treaty runs out. So the next team member will get to do the bulk of the fighting. I hope I will have the fun of doing all the early middle age trading. We will have to see what turns up in these next ten turns.

IBT:
Carthage finishes worker and starts Galley. Theveste finishes Library and starts harbor. One of our Galleys sinks.

Turn 1: 130 BC
Nothing of interest.

IBT:
LM finishes Swordsman and start another.

Turn 2: 100 BC
More exploring and worker improvements.

IBT:
Barb horsemen moves out of camp. NUdB finishes Galley and starts another.

Turn 3: 90 BC
Contact with Babylon! Trade them philosophy for 138 in gold. Note that Rome now has Monarchy so we will learn it for free next turn. Kill barb horseman and take one hit.

IBT:
Rome completes the Galley and the one turn worker factory starts up. LM finishes swordsman and starts another.
.

Turn 4: 70 BC
See a new civ in the distance.

IBT:
LM builds swordsman and starts another. Rome a worker. Rome founds a new city. NUdB complete galley and starts worker.

Turn 5: 40 BC
NMerc kills warrior in barb camp. Contact with Vikings. They have nothing. Can start war next turn but will wait until the turn after to have units in place.

IBT:
NMerc kills barb horse and become elite. NUdB builds worker and starts another worker.

Turn 6: 10 BC
Find Ottomans and they have construction, also move next Greeks, but will not have contact until next turn. Rome completes settler next turn, war of Roman extermination starts next turn, constructions in 2 turns. I would say timing is pretty good!

IBT:
We are at war with Rome and learn Construction from Ottomans and Greeks. We are in the MA! LM makes swordsman and starts one last one. Theveste goes up in disorder! We get to add to our palace for the first time.

Turn 7 10 AD
Not only did our war with Rome send Theveste into disorder, but Rome had to add another entertainer putting off the settler one turn. Lost two swordsmen in Veii attack, one archer goes elite. Get 2 gold. Settler move onto 5a. Roman attack force looks to be on the way to take out our wool hill. Will move reinforcements there. Take out barb camp so we get no mass barb attack when everyone goes MA. F3 says there are no barb around. Move Carthage archer to hilltop to light up all the north. Sell Currency to Ottomans for 271 gold and 7 per turn! Ottomans learn Feudalism. Gift Babylon currency, but they didn’t seem to get the free tech for the MA! Persia gives us 14 gold and 2 gold per turn for currency. I gift them Construction and they learn Feudalism. Give Greek currency and they learn Feudalism! I move research to Monothesism.

IBT:
Learn Feudalism. Rome complete settler. Lost a galley. Lost a galley.

Turn 8 20 AD
Swordsmen on iron hill dies attacking archer. Elite archer kills archer. Leptis Minor founded on 5a. Starts Palace. Rome abandoned.

IBT:
Lots of Romans moving around.

Turn 9: 40 AD
Antium taken out with no losses. Have contact with the Celts.

IBT:
NUdB produces settler and start worker. LM produces Mid Inf and starts NMerc. Carelessly lost a stack of 4 Roman workers. I have never used colonies much and although I knew better out of habit I treated it like a city. It is easy to see how an illusionist works. Your eyes see what they want to see, not what is there.

Turn 10: 70 AD
In my counter attacks I took out 2 spearmen and 2 archers, lost a swordsmen and an archer. NMerc went elite.

After action report:
Loses down south have been heavier than I anticipated and Rome has a larger military. I would like to see us get a colony on the iron. I think a NMerc and Colony their will bait the AI into lots of attacks. Once iron is back on line we can start making Mid Inf again. I still can’t figure out what is the deal with the Babylonians.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_AD0070_01.SAV

Very nicely done, Keith! The timing was perfect! According to F10, there is only one more civ to contact - Germany! Babylon was probably modified to be non-scientific (there's a post or two in the maintenance thread that discusses this; apparently ainwood's CivAssist utility will tell you the attributes of the different civs, and identifies which one's they actually are since they can be modded.) Good job getting visibility across the entire North; it's nice not to have to handle a bunch of barbarians at the changeover!

Here's a screenshot of the Southern Region:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Peanut_sg4_ad70South.JPG

Leptis Minor has been founded and Rome Abandoned (the timing to get the free Feudalism was awesome; too bad out of 3 Scientific civs - Ottomans, Greeks and Persians - only 1 free Tech was gotten! We probably could have traded Feudalism and a Government Tech to have gotten either Mono or Eng.)

Anyway, Leptis Minor should probably build a Temple or Library first (using Cash to rush it after a turn or two.) This will give it access to the other two Wools once the radius expands and make it easier to defend. The Temple will allow it to grow (with Joined Workers from Carthage) to size 7 or 8; a Library will help us boost our research during this time.

Rome spit out a Settler before it was abandoned; this unit is noted on the Map. Assuming the NumMerc holds out vs the two Regular Archers ready to attack it (maybe), then the Settler should have no problem getting to Site 6 (marked on the map; do we agree this is where this new city should go?) When the site6 city is founded, we will have to Abandon Numero Uno del Bel up North; NUdB is currently building a Warrior, which should be changed to a Worker (2 turns) or a Settler (get a few turns and rush it the turn before Site 6 is founded)

We show up as strong vs Rome; I think the forces we have will do the job, but I have no problem at all with putting a colony on the Iron and getting Leptis Magna to spit out a MedInf or two. The Swordsmen on the East cost can move south against Lutetia; about that time the two Reg Swordsmen near Theveste should be ready to join them, and just sweep around the Roman empire; our 1 MedInf should make it for the remaining cities. As far as defending Leptis Minor goes, maybe leave the 1 Archer in the city in case something comes out of Byzantium, and put the other 3 defenders on the Wool Colony; this give these 3 units lots of movement if they need to move, including all the way back into Leptis Minor in one turn if needed, and the Hills space will give us good defence, especially with a NumMerc there. Once the Settler gets far enough into the Jungle to be safe, the Elite NumMerc can join in defending Leptis Minor.

Take care to keep Carthage working as a 1 turn Worker factory - with the right set of spaces it generates +10 food (growth in 1 turn) and 8 shields; it gains 2 more shields upon growing so it can spit out a Worker every turn which should be sent South to grow our new cities (and Theveste once it gets a Harbor.)

One more thing: when NUdB is Abandoned, I believe we will lose our Spice connection. Be sure to place a Worker on a Spice space ready to form a Colony on that turn; this way we don't lose access to our 3rd Luxury.

Oh yeah, and about Research: Monotheism is the way to go IMO, then Theology, Education, Astonomy. Let the AI learn Engineering and Invention (hopefully, and even Gunpowder). We should trade for these as soon as they are available; with our contacts we should have no problem staying in the driver's seat. We may want to figure out some pre-builds for Sistine Chapel (in Leptis Magna I think) and Copernicus' Observatory (Carthage, of course). Probably should build Marketplaces (once Rome's fate is sealed) then start the pre-builds with whatever works best.

Great handling of this tricky end-of-era changeover, Keith!

Peanut - you're UP! (Peglegasus, what is your status; maybe you can play in before Peanut, then play again after, or just take your normal turn.) We need to do a write-up for the Spoiler also; Peanut, are you up for that! (Your style is in demand)

Well done Keith! Made god use of the Great Library :)
Steve, I looked at the save and THEN read your comments.
Boy, am I a newbie at this!
I looked at the save and thought, we are supposed to be fighting the Romans, we've only Leptis Magna producing soldiers, all the others messing about with something else, can't be good.
Then I read you say that we've propably got enough troops to take out Rome.
Also in the North, it doesn't look all lit up to me. The site of the former Roman town is in the shadow. Is there some sort of rule that barbs won't camp there?
Moving the NMerc 1North, will sort it out though.
Site 6 looks great for our last town.

Now, let's see a bit of fighting over who's gonna get to play first. :evil:
Peglegasus - grab it!
Peanut - race to claim it as yours!

So is it all right if I take it? I've finally got time to play :)

You've missed out on 3 turns, so I'd say go for it!

3 turns, darn! all right, i'm taking it. have noted all your suggestions, steve, and will play it today.

Great! Good Luck, Peglegasus!

Peanut: will you be able to do the honors with regard to a summary? We aren't able to read the Spoiler1 posts until we've posted a summary. If you're unable to do so, or if you don't post within the next day or so, I'll go ahead and put it together. (Or is there anyone else who feels particularly creative in this arena? Mathilda?)

No thanks Steve, I'll pass.
I'm sure you'll manage to get a lot more of what's important into the post.

Peglegasus - You are more than welcome to play. I am busier than a one-armed wallpaper hanger at the moment.

CS - I won't be able to get a summary together for two evenings yet as I have one more piece of assessment to shovel out the door into the eager hands of my lecturer. You did a great job last time, so if you can pick it up I would be grateful. I should be able to do the next spoiler though.

Team - I thought I had left us in a precarious position in my round, but instead of us being turned into Peanut Paste you have all made a tasty Caesar salad for us to enjoy. Well done.

I've posted a summary of our game in the Spoiler1 thread; we can now review that thread and make comments.

Good job Steve, I've just read through the other posts.
Looks like we are the only ones, so far, going for space.
We were the last ones to enter the MA. hmm.
I know I delayed the republic by a couple of turns, hope we'll catch up.
Definately lucky with only turn anarchy though :)

Peee-eeeg! I thought you were playing yesterday?

I suspect the major reason we entered the MA last so far is the 40 turn research of Writing; that's very slow research time and we're not really contributing to the general knowledge level.

Those 20K games will probably be the winners; 20K has a much later Jason date than either Diplo or Space and I suspect we'll all be finishing about the same time. Leader farming for them will determine the final result.

We need to establish our new 5th city, and grow all of them quickly. Tear up to Education and get Universities, then see how the AI is doing, trade as we go. SirPleb likes to get Education in the hands of the AI and let them learn Banking and Astronomy while he researches up the lower path; I think for this game we need to research Astronomy first (to get Copernicus' Observatory built) and then follow the lower path. Maybe research Navigation before the lower path as well (allowing Ocean trade of resources). Let's see.

Peglegasus - how are you coming along?

coming along well. had to interrupt my play for the installation of our new security system and to take care of some other junk. will post it soon

Now if only some of these other clowns would build some harbors...
I suppose harbors won't matter for some until navigation, so anyway...


Turn 0: Monotheism in 20 at -14 per turn? I can't see how that's sustainable, especially if we need to cash rush anything. I hate to do it but I drop research to 20%. Mono in 37 at -2 per turn. Move archer out of Leptis minor to defend wounded archer on wool. Think about taking the 4 roman workers but don't see the point, and it leaves 2 archers vulnerable in the end. I notice our settler heading for site 6 is Roman. He's going to be really unhappy when we drop him. Move citizen in Leptis Minor from bonus grass to wool for 2 extra shields, 1 extra food and 1 extra coin.

IBT: our settler is not attacked. The archers are moving in on Leptis Minor. Rome founds Syracuse directly south of it.

Turn 1: 90AD: We meet Germany! Will wait for the harbor to be completed to trade. We might be able to get some goodies from Persia if we can get a new tech from Germany. Chances are Persia hasn't met anyone else but we really don't know. Join a worker to Theveste. Move elite N.merc and archer back into Leptis Minor. Hmmm. auto moves on some workers and settler. Adding the worker to Theveste put us at +9 gold. Research back to 30%. With a couple scientists we are looking at mono in 22 at -1 per turn.

Sorry, all. Have to finish later.

Edit: ok have time to finish my log now.

IBT: Indian galley arrives on our west coast. Persia is building Sun Tzu's. Roman archers are swarming around Leptis Minor. One attacks a sword and dies, redlining our sword. 3 archers are in range of our wool colony, and 3 in range of Leptis Minor.

Turn 2: 110AD: Build colony on iron and move wounded sword and second sword to protect. Settler moves into position on site 6. Elite N.merc moves back to iron colony. Join worker to Theveste- becomes scientist. Mono in 20 at -2. After thinking long and hard about Leptis Minor and the wool colony I decide to abandon it and protect the city. There is wool connected in its radius still even if the colony is lost, and on expansion it will have 3 wools in its radius. The new city at site 6 will also have wool so this colony is not very important in my view. Better to protect the city and lose the colony than to protect the colony and risk the city.

IBT: Rome asks for peace. is willing to give 2 towns and 7 workers for it. Sorry, but no. The colony is destroyed. Rome has quite a lot of archers about. If Caesar could manage to group them all together we'd be in some trouble.

Turn 3: 130AD: Medeival Infantry built by Leptis Magna. Rush library for 264 in Leptis Minor. Join another worker to Theveste- becomes a tax man. I'd like to join workers down south but I can't get them down there safely right now. I hold the settler one turn on site 6 to get a last worker out of Numero uno.

IBT: Palce expands 3 times. Archer attacks Leptis Minor. N.merc defends. Is that all? Rome has enough archers down here to really make a mess but they aren't doing much.

Turn 4: 150AD: Rusicade founded at site 6. Numero uno abandoned. Colony built on spices. Elite archer kills Roman archer. Sword moves to defend wounded unit. Forces poised to take Lutetia. Double check f1 to make sure I have the proper number of cities. About to hit enter when I remember old Bismarck and the fact that our harbor was just completed. We gift Germany into the MA and they get Engineering. Was hoping for Monotheism but we'll take it anyway. Trade Literature and Republic for Engineering. Trade Engineering to Persia for horses, furs, +13 gold. Xerxes is gracious. Time to get everyone else up to speed I think. Gift techs all around and take whatever gold the other civs have, which unfortunately isn't much. With our new luxuries everyone is back to work except one entertainer in Theveste, and an unhappy Roman scientist in Rusicade.

IBT: Elite N.merc defends against 3 archers. Alas no leader. Persian galley approaches west coast. Damn. Roman galley drops an archer next to Rusicade which is undefended. There are units close by but no roads to the town so everyone would need 2 turns to get there.

Turn 5: 170AD: Time to get creative with this 5 city business. Lutetia is taken and KEPT. Rusicade is abandoned. I know, it's crazy, but it's going to be lost anyway. We already have a settler on the way down here. Rusicade was built with a Roman settler anyway and he was not pleased. We will lose 2 workers doing this as they are right next to the archer and I can't get them away.

IBT: Lose 2 workers. Archer attacks sword and dies.

Turn 6: 190AD: Forces move to Syracuse and Neapolis.

IBT: Archer attacks and kills our nice new MI!! Bother. Barb that I had not noticed before smashes our ivory colony! Cities riot. Peglegasus cries over his lot in life as the team gimp.

Turn 7: 210AD: Syracuse is destroyed.

IBT: After I've gotten everyone back on track with the lux slider and Indian settler drops right next to our spice colony! In a whiney voice: "But- but- but- Ghandi... that was ours!" Cities riot again.

Turn 8: 230AD: Kill a couple archers but it doesn't make me feel better. Lose 3 swords attacking Neapolis and a redlined spear is left! Grrrrr.

IBT: MI defends against archer.

Turn 9: 250AD: Rush MI in Leptis Minor for 68 gold. I think we have enough punch down here to do the job now. Join workers to Leptis Minor to size 7. Trade wool to Persia to replace our spices, not thinking that spices will be reconnected via colony in a couple more turns. Was just desperately looking for another lux.

IBT: Persian galley heads north up the west coast. Probably going for the ivory. Bother. Nothing else of note.

Turn 10: 260AD: Colony re-established on ivory. Big stack moves on Neapolis. This group should not fail. Maybe with my luck they could fail, but it will be up to someone else now. Barb camp is found and destroyed in the north.

260AD save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_AD0260_01.SAV)

Peglegasus: you'll be building a Worker every turn at Carthage (probably all Carthage will be building for 20 turns or so), to be moved out, do some development then joined to one of our other cities. The commerce we generate will be changing a lot so keep the research rate up, maybe to where we project to dip to 50 Gold or so. Also, as cities grow/are joined to size 7, they will reduce our military costs (going from 1 unit to 3 units supported), so that cost will drop. Cash rushing: the only thing I'd recommend cash rushing right now is a Temple or Library in Leptis Minor; maybe a Temple in site 6 once its founded. Once we learn Monotheism, we'll trade it for whatever we get, so fast research should pay for itself. We need to get to Education and Universities ASAP.

Peglegasus: you'll be building a Worker every turn at Carthage (probably all Carthage will be building for 20 turns or so), to be moved out, do some development then joined to one of our other cities. The commerce we generate will be changing a lot so keep the research rate up, maybe to where we project to dip to 50 Gold or so. Also, as cities grow/are joined to size 7, they will reduce our military costs (going from 1 unit to 3 units supported), so that cost will drop. Cash rushing: the only thing I'd recommend cash rushing right now is a Temple or Library in Leptis Minor; maybe a Temple in site 6 once its founded. Once we learn Monotheism, we'll trade it for whatever we get, so fast research should pay for itself. We need to get to Education and Universities ASAP.


Yep, yep. Built a worker every turn. That's tricky business there. Almost built a warrior a couple times. The only thing I cash rushed was a library in Leptis Minor and then a Medeival infantry for some desperate firepower. I forget where our research progress was when I finished but I think Mono is due in 10 turns, which all works out becuase when I started it was due in 20. I have never used scientists very effectively until the game I'm playing on my own right now, so I did a bit of juggling with scientists and taxmen to help out along the way and it helped. Although rioting cities sure doesn't help much. That was really disappointing.

Ok, here's something I've been thinking about. Why get rid of Rome? It's clear already that ther is no way we will be left alone on our little island. The AI will send settlers to fill the little empty spaces. When they encroach on our lands we will probably find ourselves having to make some room by razing some towns. Now wouldn't it be better to do that to a little civ like Rome that doesn't really have anything to trade? We are going to need the other civs for tech and luxuries and possibly resources. What about every 20 turns or so going out and stomping on the Roman capital and maybe another city or 2 that's irritating us at the moment, and then letting Rome rebuild a little? This way we don't have to sacrifice a trade agreement to clear some land for ourselves, like we may have to do with one of the other civs.

All - My earlier estimate of busyness this week was an understatement. How about we move straight on to you Mathilde ?

CS Thanks for doing the write-up. I enjoy doing them but right now I couldn't have done it justice.

Peglegasus - I sympathise with your experience, however you did better than I would have managed I think. Sometimes this game is a bit like trying to herd a dozen cats - a few will slip past you all the time.

I like Peglegasus' idea - let's keep Caesar hanging around just for the fun of it, rather than having the other AIs settle too much.

Peglegasus: that sounds fine by me. I've reviewed your uploaded game save. Rome's current capital is probably fine to leave as it is; the new capital would be Byzantium, which would be least desirable of Rome's 3 other cities to have as a capital. Also, our forces are very thin (with no defenders for Carthage, Leptis Magna and Theveste!); I think signing peace now and having at least some defense for our key central cities is a good idea.

I did some fiddling around: Leptis Minor should be building the Palace next. I don't think cash rushing anything else in L Minor pays for itself. Readjusting L Minor's citizens like this picture shows will generate 'We Love the King Day', and we should get about half of those Wasted shields back (10 total). That's maybe the best we can expect - Palace in 30.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Peanut_sg4_ad260LMin.JPG

I'd build a Temple in Oea first, and consider cash-rushing it; just to get it's radius expanded and allow it the extra citizen. Maybe a little later, though; see next paragraph.

I like the Marketplaces builds in Theveste and Leptis Magna. Since we have Horses being traded to us right now, I would have L Magna (after it completes its Marketplace) start generating some 2 turn Horsemen (since it has the Barracks). We have 5 Archers currently; as Horsemen are built I'd disband Archers (at Oea, to add the shields to it's Temple build). The Horsemen are a much better unit than the Archers, and can eventually be Knights. In Theveste, after it's Marketplace, I'd start building Sun-Tzu, to be a pre-build for Sistine Chapel. With Sistine Chapel, Cathedrals and Marketplaces, our cities can sustain a content 20 population with 5 Luxuries so this is looking ahead to where we want to be in the Industrial and Modern Ages.

I see that India has founded Kohlhapur on our Spice, but Peglegasus has trade for an additional Spice and Furs, along with the Horses, so we are ahead of where we would be otherwise. I look forward to a full log. Mathilda, it looks like Peanut has passed to you. You're UP (as soon as Peglegasus reveals his turn to us.)

I look forward to a full log. Mathilda, it looks like Peanut has passed to you. You're UP (as soon as Peglegasus reveals his turn to us.)

It's there... look back a page. I went back and added it to my original post that was interrupted

It's there... look back a page.
Lucky you pointed that out. I hadn't noticed it there.
Yes got it. Not sure if I'll manage to stay up tonight to play it but will try.

Peglegasus: so you did; my apologies, I hadn't gone back to review it. What a tough set of turns, but still quite a bit of progress. I agree with abandoning the colony; L Minor is more important.

Might want to road all the Ivory to the North; that way if someone does form a city there, they can trade the extra Ivory to us! (Can't trade it anywhere else until they get a Harbor and Astronomy.)

When we're out and about exploring with our Galleys, we should be sure to gain visibility of the cities as we pass by. I think we have to see the city to see if they have a harbor; otherwise, we have no possible trading route.

And I'd sign peace with Rome now, keeping their Capital where it is and taking as many Workers as they'll offer up. Don't take any cities; like Peg posted before, they occupy space keeping the other civs out. I don't believe the AI will form a city within one space of our cultural radius; if that's so we can place a unit or two in places to deny them from forming new cities on our continent, at least in the South.

Turn0 260AD:
Change citizens in Leptis as advised.
Contact Ceasar to negotiate peace.
He'll give us 5 workers, all his gold(3), and all his towns.
Hmm... what shall we do with that.
Can't keep the towns, don't want the rep hit for abandoning...
I know :) take them and give them back.
I'm not sure if it does anything, but hoping it will make him a bit more accepting of us in future.

IBT: armed forces get a swift send off back home from our friend in red.

turn1 270AD
Indeed, palace now in 29.
Nobody seems to have anything to trade.
Attitudes vary from gracious to polite, save for good old Ceasar, who's - well you know.
Not much, just workers and sending troops back to the defence of our glorious cities.
(off topic: and helping my first grader come up with words that start with 'L' for his homework)

IBT: Persian settler approaching OUR ivory :(
Sank a galley.

turn2 280AD
Not a lot, sending archers towards Oea for disbanding purposes.
Oh, disobedience of Queen Mathilda:
Carthage got down to size 4, (probably down to bad management),
so decided to give them a marketplace next.

IBT: Athens builds the Great Wall.
Persians found Bactra close to our ivory colony, not distroying it though.
The Indians land another settler on our island.

turn3 290AD
Magna can finish Market in one by losing two food for one turn, no pop loss though.

IBT: Indians build another town, onto a certain western peninsula. That takes our newly built spice colony :(

turn4 300AD
Start horsemen in Magna, join a worker there, two in Oea.
Well, look at that, that marketplace made a nice difference to our income.
From -3 to +11. time to up science spending to 50%, taking -2 overall. Mono in 4.

iBT: Nought

Turn5 310AD
Thevste finshes marketplace and
starts prebuilding for that religous wonder, wahdya-mac-callit, you know the one.
Disbanded 3 archers in Oea and bought the rest of the shields for a temple.

IBT: Nothing

Turn6 320AD
Very similar to ibt, not a lot.

IBT:nope

Turn7 330AD:
workers chopping down jungle next to Oea, that's the exitement.
Slight adjustment of science slider since Mono due in 1.

IBT: we know mono. Theo 15 turns at -5, (about 100 in bank) let's see if we can get some cash.
Xerxes 58 + 21gpt for mono - oh yes :) (nothing else on offer)
Bismarck, don't have any cash, won't offer anything.
Alexander 9gpt - oh yes :) (nothing else on offer)
Osman 20 + 5gpt - yes please!
Brennus 8 gold - naaah, don't hink so.
Mahatma - 4gold - no.
Ragnar 1 gold - no. the Vikngs have lost their other town to somebody.
Hammurabi 7 gold - pass.
End result, Theo due in 9 with -5 per turn.

turn8 340AD
Nothing really.
there is a roman spear going through our lands, but I don't think he means any harm.

IBT: even less

turn 9 350AD
The same.

IBT: you guessed it

turn 10 360AD
Sighted a little South Sea island with wines, not any good to us obviously,
since we can't have any more towns.
Adjusted Cartage to finish market in one, will need mm to get food back.


After action reflections:
Galleys still looking round, one returned back home ( in front of Thevste).
Got sidetracked with workers, should have brought more of them South.
I haven't got any objections to giving the techs away, I just thought wait a coule of turns to see, if we'd get something a bit more useful for mono from the ones I didn't trade to than a couple of gold.

Here you go Steve (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_AD0360_01.SAV)

Oh, Steve. What you said about roading the ivory so that they can trade it to us. Doesn't work. The spices that became Indian are definately roaded to us and their town on our island, but they are not tradeable. Isn't it that we have to have a traderoute to their capital?
edit: looks like they changed their mind about that post auto-emerge feature.

Unfortunate about the MM'ing of Carthage; I think you have to check the city every turn that it is building a Worker AND generating +10 food (growth in 1.) On the bright side, a Marketplace in Carthage will definitely help our Cash situation, and the delay will mean less time waiting for the Palace in L Minor to finish while we have all these extra Workers running around (joining Workers to L Minor is a no-no right now with WLTKD going, and doesn't help Oea that much until the Capital has been moved; the Workers will be useful in clearing the Jungle near Oea.)

Not sure about taking the cities from Ceasar and gifting them back; I think he gets a free Spearman for every city gifted to him!

And definitely a good deal with the Mono trades; we can really use the extra gpt to sustain our research rate. I also agree that we should hold out for something better to trade it for from those we haven't traded with yet; I don't think the AI will trade it for 8 gold either!!

I'll post a got it. I'd like to give Peglegasus another shot this round. I'll play tonight unless Peg wishes to play before me.

(I see your new post, Mathilda. You may be right about needing the Capital connection. I've noticed that far-off cities of mine have access to Luxuries and Resources that I control on the local road network, even though I have no connection to my capital. I'm hoping that this might work for trade as well; without the extra roads it definitely wont. :) )

((oops - you're right about the Indian spices; doesn't look like trading Ivory is possible if we lose it. Hmm, would it be possible to build a city in one turn, disband an older unit, rush a harbor, then gift the city to someone? May be something to try somewhat later, since we are cash strapped right now.))

Interesting things to note on the scoring table: Team Ivan, last save at 250 AD has a higher point count than us (and Team Bugsy) at the 350 AD save. And Team Offa at 860 AD outscores Team Bede at 1450 AD!! These might be the teams to watch for the Green Laurel competition.

Steve, where do you see the points past 550bc, that the graph goes to?

Actually I can't take it today. Have family coming over for dinner. Can play tomorrow or friday though in the morning.

BTW, the turn log summaries on the first page are great, Steve.

Thanks! It really helped out when posting the spoiler entry.

OK, I'll try to do a set tonight.

Steve, where do you see the points past 550bc, that the graph goes to?
I'm just going by relative position on the upper chart, showing each team, line by line. This chart lists the last save uploaded for each team, and the order of the teams is determined by their in-game score. If a team is listed above another, but has an earlier save in terms of the year of the save, then they are scoring higher than the other team.

I've loaded up your save, and will have to play tomorrow.

Finished this set of turns, here's the log:

Turn 0, 360 AD
Adjust Lux to 10%; Science to 90%; Theo in 6 still at -7 gpt
Adjust L Minor; still WLTKD but No Growth
Worker priorities: road/mine River Mtn near Theveste; Road and Mine Wool near L Minor; Road additional Ivory; Clear Jungle near Oea


Turn 1, 370 AD
Carthage finishes Marketplace; start on Worker
Palace gets some cool Pillars with Statues on top
Workers reveal a BG under some Jungle near Oea

(IBT Celts destroy the Vikings
Babylon completed Hanging Gardens; several Tumble to Sun Tzu's
An Indian Galley is heading North along our Coast; maybe another city?)

Turn 2, 380 AD
Carthage build Worker
Leptis Magna builds Horseman

Turn 3, 390 AD
Carthage builds Worker
Leptis Magna is now size 12; generating 20 shields a turn

(IBT, Fur and Horses deal falls through)

Turn 4, 400 AD
Carthage another Worker
Leptis Magna a Horseman, begin on Cathedral
Need Furs; hmm, still can't trade with India - guess their port town isn't connected to their capital; Persia will trade Furs for 87 Gold, or 62 Gold and our Worker (he values it at 25 Gold); We'll take the Worker/62 Gold deal; BTW, Persia has Invention!

Turn 5, 410 AD
Carthage another Worker
Sell Mono to Babylon for 56 Gold and 5 gpt

(IBT, a Roman Archer/Settler pair is trying to move through, maybe up to the NE corner!)

Turn 6, 420 AD
We learn Theology; only thing to trade for is Invention, and Persia wont trade it; I think we should hold Theo anyway, see if someone can finish Sun-Tzu's and wipe out the AI pre-builds; Education in 10 at -7 gpt; 97 Gold in Treasury
Carthage another Worker
We find a Celtic Port (Nidaros); that was a small land mass the Celts and Viking shared!

Turn 7, 430 AD
Carthage another Worker
Wools near L Minor roaded/mined; adds another Shield, Palace in 12
River Mtns near Theveste roaded/mined; switch to Sistine Chapel, done in 26

Turn 8, 440 AD
Carthage another Worker
Oea finishes Library (size 6), begins on Marketplace

Turn 9, 450 AD
Carthage fin Worker, begin on Temple
2nd Ivory Roaded

(IBT Indians land a Settler Spear near our Ivory colony; we might lose it next turn, but the other Ivory should survive for now)

Turn 10, 460 AD
Join 5 Workers to Carthage, now size 12
Education in 4, earning +12 gpt with 10% Taxes
Renew Spices for Wool deal with Persia, getting 27 Gold in addition
Mined extra Mountain near Theveste; can use it for extra shields (at food loss) when we're close to finishing Sistine
Place Worker on potential Hill city site just north of Oea; let's see the effect, if any, on the Roman Archer/Settler stack
Slow down L Magna Cathedral build to finish just as we learn Education; recommend an immediate 'Show Me the Big Picture" - go to F1 - change L Magna to University as we learn Education
Change Carthage to Sun Tzu's; pre-build for Copernicus' Observatory

End of Turnlog

Fairly non-eventful. Our 3 main cities are all at Size 12; Leptis Minor has 9 more turns to complete Palace; we learned Theology, and have 4 turns left on Education; Leptis Magna is using a Cathedral to pre-build for University, and it will have to be switched as soon as Education is learned (from the Show me the Big Picture option); Carthage has been started on a pre-build for Copernicus' Observatory, it has a Forest space not being use, but just switching the Irrigated River Grassland citizen to the Forest made Education take an extra turn, so I've left it slightly under productive; once we learn Education, that citizen can be moved.

Persia has Invention, but I am worried about the Sun-Tzu builds going on around the World; we have 23 turns left to finish Sistine (slightly shorter if we use the extra Mountains space near Theveste with about 12 turns left); I'd hate to lose Sistine due to trading Persia Theology for Invention and someone else finishes Sun-Tzu's; regardless, we need to get Education in the hands of the AI, so we'll most likely need to trade Theo and gift Education around that time or some combination, cause I don't think its a good idea to slow down research in order to protect our build of Sistine Chapel; after Education I'd do Astronomy, then Navigation (more trading of goods), and we might be able to trade Astronomy for Gunpowder about that time.

Very frustrating that we can't trade with India despite seeing 3 harbors!

Oh well; Keith Larson - you're UP! (Although, if Keith doesn't mind, it might be nice to give Peglegasus one of his missed turns.)

The 460 AD save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_AD0460_01.SAV)

I have commitments this evening so I would not mind if Peg takes another set.

I can give it a go in the morning, if that's all right.

Sounds good; go for it Peglegasus!

Our Northern Tundra (and NW Coast) is beginning to look like Little India and Persia; Persia has 1 city, and India's about to add their 3rd. We should be able to maintain our Ivory as long as we're not at war with them, and this new Indian city (about to be formed) does not culturally expand. Hopefully by then we'll have Navigation and our pick of Luxuries around the world; and India might even have a Harbor we can trade for these luxuries anyway, so I'd leave things be.

We should be able to get Invention by trade, and if we're really lucky, Gunpower as well. After we finish Education (and get it in the AI's hands so they can learn Banking for us), Astronomy and Navigation, I'd head over to Chemistry (Gunpowder first if necessary and trade Astronomy if needed when Gunpowder is available) and be sure to trade/gift that to the AI so they can learn Metallurgy for us. Physics would then be next, followed by TofG and Magnetism. I don't think they'll be able to help us with either TofG or Magnetism before we'd finish it, so we can keep Physics to renew any trades we make.

That's my general plan for fast research through the MidAges; from here I hope to get Banking, Gunpowder and Metallurgy (along with Invention) from the AI. Timing of trades can vary of course - if we learn Education and some deals are about to expire in a couple of turns, I'd wait to trade so we can renew our deals using Education.

Just a small note to say that looking at the save, happiness seems pretty precarious atm. The three top cities have 6 happy, 6 unhappy. If India builds their latest town where they are now, we'll lose our ivory colony and are one lux down. So either build a new colony before clicking over a turn, or if that is not pos. then up the lux slider.
M

Good point! Actually, one of the Roman Workers on the unroaded Ivory can be made into a colony, but I think they just moved there so that option wont be available until next turn. Probably need to up the Lux% right now, taking a little bit of a gold hit for 1 turn to be safe; otherwise the Indian city is built after our turn, and all our cities go into CD.

(That Team Offa is still at the top of the list, ahead of Team Bede, even though Offa is at 860 and Bede is at 1500 AD. If Team Offa has finished their game, Conquest I suppose, that would be 300+ years ahead of the Jason date, and pretty much untouchable.)

Talking of the scores, I do like the way our graph has a definate rising trend.
Peglegasus are you plying or what? Can you post an update, so that Keith can take it if you can't for some reason. Please :)
M

Yup. :) Biggest component of score is Happy People/ Content People. I think our score will really start heading up due to all the Join Workers we've done! I think we will want Sanitation pretty soon after entering the IA; the faster we can get to Max population (20 per city) the better, both for score and for research speed.

How is it going, Peglegasus? Were you able to play this morning?

Peglegasus are you plying or what? Can you post an update, so that Keith can take it if you can't for some reason. Please :)
M


hehe. anxious, eh? well, I thought I would be able to play today but it didn't pan out. sorry. whoever is available... take it!

Alright, Keith <--- You're UP! (Peanut on deck). Please post if you've 'got it'

I wish Peg had posted earlier that he could not play. I could have played earlier. I have it and will get to it tommorrow.

Today does not look to promising for me. Still have work to finish up. How about someone else take it today and I will play tommorrow.

Keith, when is your tomorrow? I'd guess you're in the US, but am I even right? What sort of time zone are you on and what time of tommorrow did you have in mind?
Just so that we can give Peg or Peanut notice this.
M

edit: I don't belive he just managed to slip away while I typed that.
Anyway: Steve went last and I before that so Peglegasus or Peanut, either of you two available?

To echo the status: if either Peanut or Peglegasus can play, post a 'got it' and go at it. Otherwise, it's Keith's as of ... Sunday morning? Central Time, USA

A whole weekend.:cry:

Here it is. Not much happened.

IBT:
Worker on hill did turn back the Roman settler/archer. India founds Hyderabad and takes out our ivory. I should have anticipated this. As a consequence three cities go into disorder!

Turn 1: 470 AD
Build colony on ivory.

IBT:
Order restored. India kicks us out.

Turn 2: 480 AD
Nothing much.

IBT:
Nothing to note.

Turn 3: 490 AD
I have got good news and bad news! The Good News: we can trade with India. The Bad News: They don’t have anything to sell but horses!

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 4: 500 AD
We learn education and switch LM to university.

IBT:
Nothing of importance.

Turn 5: 510 AD
Nothing new.

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 6: 520 AD
Same old, same old.

IBT:
Rome looks to be coming around the north.

Turn 7 530 AD
University built in LM, start cathedral.

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 8 540 AD
Oea completes Marketplace and starts university.

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 9: 550 AD
Leptis Minor finishes palace and starts marketplace. Disband archer in Oea, this speeds up University by one turn. Trade wool for 60 gold and horses with India.

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 10: 70 AD
Nothing.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_AD0560_01.SAV

OK, so it's mine then. I'll start in about six hours from now.

Mathilde - Boldly go where no Peanut has gone before !

This should put us back onto the normal roster - Mathilde (UP now), CS, KL, Peanut, Peglegasus.

I will try extra hard from now to complete as fast as possible (or pass as quickly as possible if I am drowning in work). I feel I have let the team down a bit recently with my sporadic involvement - Sorry to you all. Things are clearing up now thankfully.

Peanut, if you are available straight away, be my guest.
I'm still at work.
M

I've looked at the save; things should be almost into cruise control now! We are up Theology and Education on everybody; Persia has Invention and Chivalry, and Invention is also known by Babylon and Indai. We are 14 turns from finishing Sistine Chapel. I'd probably skip trading for Chivalry now to build a few more Horsemen; we could trade Theology for Invention, and either trade or Gift Education around, which would give us a good shot at someone learning Banking for us, but it would also put Sistine Chapel at risk; or not trade and wait until Sistine's is finished. (I'm leaning towards trading; we can make up the loss of Sistine Chapel if it happens by being sure to trade for all available Luxuries once we learn Navigation.)

I would Join Workers to Oea and Leptis Minor as soon as all useable spaces have been improved; the remaining Workers (and Roman slaves) can finish Roading the Mountains spaces between Theveste and Leptis Magna.

After learning Astronomy, I'd hold off trading it until Carthage has completed Copernicus' Observatory, which shouldn't be too much later; then I'd trade it for (hopefully) Gunpowder and whatever Luxuries are available (we might have Navigation by that time, which will open up all trading ports to us!)

After finishing Copernicus' Observatory, Carthage will probably have to start a pre-build for Newton's University right away; if we get Gunpowder in a trade, we might be as few as 15 turns or so away from learning Theory of Gravity (Chemistry, Physics, Theory of Gravity). After we get Maps from Everybody, we should figure out who we wish to Gift our extra Wools to; trading with Persia has made them a great Research Partner and I'd like to develop another.

are there any other AI builds going other than Leo's and Sun Tzu's? I agree with you that losing Sistine's wouldn't be that big a deal but Copernicus will be very valuable.

Almost everybody is building Sun-Tzu's, and some are building Leo's. I would make sure everybody (except the Romans) had all Techs after the trade, so that Leo's would be an option for everybody if Sun-Tzu's was finished. Astronomy I would keep jealously to myself until Copernicus' Observatory was finished in Carthage.

Exactly what I was thinking, Steve.

Looking ahead should we consider prepping a small invasion force in case we have to fight for coal? I think getting our territory railed will be very helpful and I'd hate to find that none is available to us through trade. The five city aspect of our game is going to make this tricky if we DO have to go and acquire some with force. I've thought of a way to do it, but it will depend on where the stuff is. What we need is a coal source close to someone's border who already has one. We might use Rome to reduce our number of cities temporarily. Leave Oea undefended to bait Rome into taking it. Then we invade the coal city. If we have to hold it a couple turns we'll be able to because of losing Oea. Then the captured city can be gifted to whoever already has one coal... now they have one for trade. We'll need an ROP with that Civ to help defend it probably until the war winds down. Then we can retake Oea. The other way would be to capture the coal town and rush improvements there if need be, like a harbor. Then gift it away. Maybe clear a couple nearby towns to reduce the chances of a culture flip.

There's another good reason to have kept Rome around. :)

Peglegasus: I'm glad you're thinking ahead! But it will be a lot easier then you think, and we wont have to change our city setup. We're not Scientific, so we won't have a bonus Tech upon entering the Industrial Age, but I think we have 4 civs (Germany, Persia, Greeks and Ottomans - NOT the Babylonians) who are. We gift them all into the Industrial Age, and we're bound to have at least one Tech that 2 of them know (hopefully Steam Power), and we might be able to trade Navigation (which we know uniquely) for it. If not, we start research of Steam Power at full bore and check every turn until we can trade for it. Now we know where coal is; we just have to find someone with 2 sources to trade with, preferably one of the non-scientific civs who will be happy to give us coal for a Tech (or maybe even a little gold - resources are cheaper for 5CC because they assign a cost based on size of empire.)

What if someone has a 2nd source of coal but it isn't connected? Sign ROP, send Workers over and help them out.

What if someone has 2 sources, which they trade away before we make a deal? Figure out who is getting it (Investigate City on smallest city), and set up a war to break the trade. Then close the deal with the civ that now has an extra coal.

Unless Mad-Bax has set it up so each civ is likely to have only 1 source, and there are no extra sources, we should be able to get coal through trade and keep our cities as they are.

turn0 560AD
Indeed, fine form.
Slight adjustmenet on LMagna, temp lose some food, get uni in 5 instead of six.

IBT: Hammurabi wants theo for invention.
Let's check if he's got anything else to give. 36 gold. Ok, lets do it.
... and this is where I made that stupid mistake again... pressed 'enter' when I'd decided to go for it.
Of course it ends discussion with Hammurabi and clicks the turn over.

So it is then
turn1 570AD
Quick, get Hammurabi back. Oh, now he's got 47 gold to butter us up with.
So that turned out quite nicely :)
Hmmm.. just to be on the safe side, let's check the others first.
Xerxes has invention, but he's also got a lot of money (290)
So I think we'll sell the theo to him and swap it for invention with Hammurabi.

The deals: we give theo, Xerxes gives 290gold + 52 gpt!!!
we give theo, Hammurabi gives invention and 47 gold + 2gpt.
That wasn't on offer when he came to us.
We give invention , Osman gives 82gold + 3gpt.
We sell invention to everybody else as well for whatever they have, doesn't amount ot much.

Join workers to LMinor, now size 11.

IBT: a roman spear right next to our capital. We pretend not to notice.

turn2 580AD:
One more worker to LMinor, now size 12.

IBT: nothing

turn3 590AD:
learn astro, Carthage to Copernicus, due in 9.
Navigation due in 7.
Lminor finishes Market, start Uni.

So let's hand education round:
Xerxes pays 41 gold + 8gpt (where does he get all his money from?)
Oh, Osman hasn't got theo, hmmm lets leave it .
Same for the Greek bloke.
Bismarck hasn't even got Mono, lets give it to him for a mere 12 gold.
Hammurabi's got theo, but no money. we give him education anyway.
Hopefully he'll learn how to make some money :laugh:
Hammurabi cautios -> polite.
Gandhi, no theo.
Brennus no Mono, sell it to him for 12 gold.

IBT: lost furs!

turn4 600AD:
furs back from Xerxes for 7 gpt. Astronomy was the only other option.
Join 2 workers to Oea, now size 10.

IBT: Nothing

turn5 610AD:
Lmagna cathedral -> horseman.

IBT: ghinnot (that's nothing in alphabetical order)

turn6: 620AD
all towns are now size 12!

IBT: nope

turn7 630AD:
Decided to mine one of Carthages irrgated cows. For production - for the time being.
Can always change it back when we can grow again.

IBT: Babylon's got Sun Tzu's.
Persia's got Leo's and they are building Sistine.
In Susa, it turns out - size 12 city, must be their nro 2 city.
If this was a solo game, I'd so build an embassy and investigate the city.

hmm... embassies?
No, I think I'll leave that for Steve to do.

turn8 640AD:
just got a worker to plant a forest where Rome used to be, to get rid of the ruins
and who knows, maybe we'll chop it up one day.

dropped science ( no effect to navigation), upped lux a bit to get some of them happiness points.

IBT: also Greeks and Ottomans are building Sistine

turn9 650AD:
Carthage cow mined. still 4 food too many, let's mine the other cow as well.

IBT: Xerxes wants astronomy for chivalry. no thanks.

turn10 660:
We have Navigation - Let's deal.
Brennus silks, wmap, 29 gold +1gpt for our wmap
Hammurabi wmap, 49gold +8gpt for our wmap
Bismarck dyes, wmap, 1gold for our wmap
Alex Incense, wmap, 1gold for our wmap
Osman wmap, 92gold + 10gpt for our wmap
No deal with the rest.

Leptis Minor Uni -> temple
Oea Uni -> Magellan's

I end my turn here.
There are still some trading opportunities there,
I'm sure you'll make good use of them before clicking over Steve.

Sorry, didn't manage to put the link here, the computer's .... you know.

Looks good. I think embassies are in order now. And I plan to be generous. I guess I'm up. I've got it, and will try to play tomorrow morning.

(Edit: for historical purposes, here's Mathilda's 660 AD Save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_AD0660_01.SAV)

I was pretty generous! :) Here's the turn log -

Turn 0, 660 AD
Reassign LMinor's Taxman; don't need the extra shield, but it generates 2 Science
Reassign Theveste's Citizens to more Mountains, lots of food loss but Sistine now in 3
Persia has Gunpowder! And will trade it for Astronomy (we will wait until Copernicus Obs is done)
Set Research to Gunpowder, and % to 0 (gain +293 gpt while waiting 2 turns)
Gift Education to Ottomans (now Gracious)
Gift Education to Greeks (now Gracious)
Sell Theo to Germans for 1 Gold and WM; Gift Education (just Polite)
Trade WM to Persia for WM and 42 Gold
Sell Theo to India for WM; Gift Gandhi Education (Gracious)
Sell Theo to Celts for WM, 16 Gold and 5 gpt; Gift Education to Brennus (Gracious)
Gift Wool to Babylon (Gracious)
Form Embassy with Greece; Athens is size8 with 4 Entertainers! 33 turns to Sistine; 70% Taxes - they will not be a good research partner for a while.
Embassy with Ottomans; Sogut is size8; in better shape, at 60% Tax, 40% Science
Embassy with Germans; Berlin is size7; not as good shape as Ottomans and 60% Tax, 40% Science
Embassy with Babylon; Babylon is size11; but not that developed (lots of Wonders); 70% Tax, 30% Science
Embassy with Celts; Entremont is size8; Temple and Colosseum only; 60% Tax, 40% Science
Embassy with India; Delhi is size12; missing Univ and Cath; 60Tax, 40Sci
Embassy with Persia; Persepolis is size11; only has Barracks and Harbor! (and Leo's); 50Tax, 50Sci
Only War currently is between Babylon and Greece
Gift Wool to Brennus

(IBT, renew Spice for Wool deal with Persia, we pay 105 Gold, also)

Turn 1, 670 AD
Recall last out and about Galley
hmm, I'll mine the Irrigated Grassland near Oea

Turn 2, 680 AD
Oea switched to Courthouse
Carthage completes Copernicus' Observatory; start on Magellan's as pre-build for Newton's
LMinor fin Temple, next Worker
Trade Astronomy, WM and 480 Gold to Persia for Gunpowder
Start on Chemistry, 5 turns
Trade GunPowder to Osman for 25Gold, 5 gpt, and WM; Gift him Astronomy
Same thing to the others; we get about 130 Gold, and another 12 gpt or so in total
Hopefully at least one will be researching Banking for us!

Turn 3, 690 AD
Theveste finishes Sistine Chapel, begin on University
LMinor fin Worker, beg Cathedral
LMagna fin Horseman, beg Horseman
We do have Saltpeter, on the Hill where Utica once stood

Turn 4, 700 AD
autopilot

Turn 5, 710 AD
LMagna fin Horseman, beg Horseman
Oea fin Courthouse, beg Work
Reduce Res% to 80%, Chem still in 2

Turn 6, 720 AD
more autopilot

Turn 7, 730 AD
Learn Chemistry, start on Physics, 100%, 5 turns
Trade Chemistry to Persia for Chivalry and loose Gold (no gpt)
Trade Chemistry for loose Gold (no gpt) and gift Chivalry to all the other (except Rome)
Upgrade 9 Horsemen to Knights

(IBT, a Roman Archer moves adjacent to LMagna)

Turn 8, 740 AD
Reassign Knights to their defensive posts
LMinor fin Cathedral, beg Barracks

Turn 9, 750 AD
LMagna fin Knight, beg Work

(IBT, Horses for Wool expires; we gift Wool to Gandhi)

Turn 10, 760 AD
LMagna fin Work, beg Granary
LMinor fin Barracks, beg Granary
Reassign LMagna's Citizens so -1 Food to complete Granary while bin is full

End of Turnlog

For fast research games, you want the AI to get certain Techs as quickly as possible. Education is one of them (so they can research Banking), and for me, Chemistry is one also (so they can research Metallurgy). So I gifted or traded them those techs without any regard as to what I got for it; I hope to get a free Tech from them later which is much more valuable than the gold they have on hand right now.

Rome is looking restive; it would be nice if they declare on us! Our Knights could run them over with no problems. I don't think the reverse War-Weariness will help much; our cities are at size 12 pretty much, and those with Cathedrals are all happy (our score should really start to take off!).

Anyway, I've been popping out the occasional Worker from cities that are size 12 and have their food bin full; we'll need Workers to build our raillines soon, and to pop our population up once we start building Hospitals, so I'd suggest we keep doing that. I've also started building Granaries in our cities to support building the Workers and to grow our cities faster once they have Hospitals.

For Research, I think we should finish Physics in 2, then on to Theory of Gravity (switching Carthage to Newton's once we know it), then Magnetism. Hopefully by that time the AI will know at least one of Banking and Metallurgy (maybe even both!) We should probably build a Colony on the other Ivory space available to us and gift it to someone; gifting Luxuries helps to invigorate the AI civ, which ultimately helps us because they have more Gold to pay us or more Research to learn Techs for us. If we have to, we research one or both of those Techs ourselves, then gift the Scientific civs into the Industrial Age to determine what we research, and if we have any trades. This could happen in 12 turns or less, if all goes well.

Keith, I think you're UP!! Peanut/Peglegasus on-board. Please post a got-it or pass at your earliest opportunity.

760 AD Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_AD0760_01.SAV)

Nice work Steve, I'm learning all the time.
Would you mind explaining one more thing?
Why the courthouse in Oea?

I wasn't sure if Magellan's was something we needed. It certainly works as the only good pre-build we have for Newton's in Carthage (our Palace is only worth about 300 Shields right now), so I converted Carthage to Magellan's, and that left Oea to do something else. I think Oea eventually needs Cathedral, Harbor and Courthouse (Granary, too!); Harbor isn't really needed until we have Hospitals and can grow past size 12; Cathedral took a bit too long in case we wanted to build something else (like Magellan's after all); so I built Courthouse, which is currently gaining us two of our corrupted commerce back and 1 of our wasted Shields. It will save even more once we grow in size to 20. We should eventually build Courthouses in our non-Palace and non-FP cities (Carthage, Theveste and we already have one in Oea.)

Anyway, that was my reasoning. Courthouse is not a requirement at this stage, but it seemed most helpful.

I was thinking about the Astronomy trade and building Copernicus' Observatory. Before we built the Observatory, Xerxes was willing to trade Gunpowder for Astronomy effectively straight up. After we finished, Xerxex wanted 600+ Gold in addition to Astronomy, and we ended up giving him 480. I think I could have safely traded him Astronomy with 1 turn left on the Observatory. My reasoning is that all builds are done in a build phase, including Wonders and we've already all completed the current build phase for the turn we are playing; we go first in all phases of the game, so we would complete Copernicus' Observatory first even if Xerxes had a big pre-build that he could switch for CO. In that case, since we hadn't completed it, I believe Astronomy would be rated more valuable, and we wouldn't have had to spend the 480 Gold (and saved a turn as well!)

Yes, Magellan's was in production in Oea because I couldn't really decide what to build.
I tend to do quite a lot of fighting in my normal games so a lot of the production goes to military. Certainly I wouldn't 'waste' shields on a courthouse in a town right next to the capital. Of course when we have lots of time to build things and it saves us one more gold than it costs in maintanance (if I understood correctly) then why not.

He-He; just checked the score page, and we are higher on the list than some teams with 800 AD or later list dates! :D We have lots of Luxuries (combined with Sistine Chapel, our citizens in cities with Cathedrals are ALL happy), so our score is really climbing.

(Edit - just saw your post, Mathilda. Absolutely! I usually don't make early Courthouses because they don't save me any money, so I'd rather use the 80 Shields somewhere else. Here, it's at least making money. And the 2 commerce it saves equals 4 Science with Library and University or 3 Gold with Marketplace.)

Yes, I was looking at the scores as well.
X-team and Alamo, who we've passed are both going for 20K.
Meaning I can't see any reason why they SHOULD be behind us. :)

I got it and will play tommorrow evening.

Good! Let's see if we can get this lined up. Keith will be playing Wednesday evening, Oct 20th, US Central time I believe. Peanut, will you be able to play Thursday evening, Australian time?

Turn 0: 760 AD
Everything looks in order. No changes.

Turn 1: 770 AD
Fortify horseman in LM for later upgrade.
Move slider down 10% to save gold.

Turn 2: 780 AD
Learn Physics. Start ToG.
LMinor finishes granary, starts worker.
Slider remains at 90%, the best we can do is ToG in 6 turns.


Turn 3: 790 AD
Bab and Greece decide to give peace a chance.
LMin finishes worker and starts Musket in 2.
LMag finishes granary and starts Musket in 3.
(I will disband some of the MidInf).

Turn 4: 800 AD
Oea finishes Cathedral and starts Granary.

Turn 5: 810 AD
We lost furs.
LMin finishes Musket and starts worker.
Theveste finishes University and starts Cathedral.
India and Persia both have Banking and both still have furs!
Trade Nav to India for Banking, Furs, Horses, World Map and 2 gold per turn.
Trade Nav to Persia for World Map, 179 gold and 19 gold/turn.
Trade Banking to Ottomans for WM, 42 gold and 9 gold/turn.
Trade Banking to Greeks for WM, 30 gold.
Trade Banking to Germans for WM, 2 gold.
Trade Banking to Celts for WM, 18 gold, 2 gold/turn.
Upgrade Horseman to Knight.

Turn 6: 820 AD
LMin finishes worker and starts Knight.
LMag finishes Musket and starts Knight.
Had forgotten about Bab. Sell them Banking for WM, 10 gold and 4 gold/turn.
India gives me 30 gold and 16 gold/turn for a WM.
Persia gives me 7 gold.
So does Ottomans.
Celts give me 10 gold. Everyone else is penniless.

Turn 7 830 AD
Oea finishes granary and starts Bank.
Lmin and Lmag switch to Banks.
Disband Reg. MidInf.

Turn 8 840 AD
Persia attacks India!
Learn ToG and start Mag.
Switch Carthage to Newton’s.

Turn 9: 850 AD
Lost Incense, Silks, Dyes.
Trade Nav to Greece for Incense, WM, 49 gold and 13 gold/turn.
Trade Nav to Celts for Silks, WM and 18 gold.
Trade Nav to Ottomans for Dyes, WM and 8 gold.


Turn 10: 860 AD
Trade Physics to Persians for Printing Press, WM, 123 gold, 57 gold/turn.
Trade Printing Press to India for WM, 27 gold, 19 gold/turn.

After action report:
There are a number of Communications trades that can be made, but I have milked everyone dry of cash. We also have a number of wools we need to trade or give away but I will let the next person decide that. I am roading every tile we control in hopes that one of them will have coal. We have 1759 gold and 92 per turn coming in. We will know Mag in 3 turns. We will have Newton’s in 2 and we will start completing banks in 2. I would say we are in good shape. :)

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_AD0860_01.SAV

We seem to be one turn out of sync with everyone else.
We are currently submitting 10 years after the others.
Could we try to get back with program by someone playing only 9 turns?

Yes, it is all looking very nice: :cool:

:coffee: Seems like that time again....
You know what I mean don't you?
Peanut's not been here for three days.
I know it's only ten hours since Keith posted his log, but... (sigh)

About selling communications, why would we want to do that?
We don't exactly need cash and we seem to benefit from being in the prime trading position. If they don't each other, they'll have to sell their stuff to us instead.
M

Keith, good set of turns! We are in great shape. One strategic point: I would have used Physics to trade for Banking and the rest, not Navigation. Nav is an optional Tech, so we can take it into the Industrial Age for trade use to try and get one or more of the Scientific civ's free Techs; trading Nav also puts our current monopoly on intercontinental trade and our unique Communications at risk. And if they wont trade Banking for Physics, than we wait; we use Physics to renew the Luxuries, and maybe later TofG and Mag for Banking. After all, we have to gift or trade all 3 before anyone else can enter the IA.

I noticed we're down a Luxury; it looks like India has cut our road going through the one Persian city's culture in our North to our Luxuries. Bother. We may want to sign ROP's with both, and send Workers to road that area as well. It's a shame in a way that we have so many agreements with India right now; if we had none I'd be inclined to declare War and cleanse our continent of Indian colonies; we'd gain back at least two of our Spice (which are within our current expanded culture) and probably be better able to protect our Ivory. Something to consider (in 20 turns) if Persia is winning in it's war with India.

Alright Peanut - You're UP!! (Peglegasus on deck) We haven't heard from you in a while; please post a got-it or a pass at your earliest convenience.

(Mathilda, I see your latest post. I agree, I wouldn't trade the Communications yet. I'd wait until we're in the IndAge, and we've gifted the Scientific civs there as well; trading those Communications at that time may be the difference in getting one of their Techs.)

Good points about Nav. Learn something new every game.

Peanut, 24 hours is up - and you had a pre-warning about it.
Peglegasus, it's over to you then.
M

I wanted to suggest some strategy for entering the Industrial Age. We have 3 turns to go on Magnetism, and the AI could learn Metallurgy at any time.

So, if we learn Magnetism and the AI have Metallurgy, no problem, we just trade for it and we're Industrial. If they haven't, then we should start research on it and check every turn to see if someone else has learned it. Every turn saved on the Metallurgy research is probably one more turn off our final score!

Alright, now we're in the IA. We should immediately Trade/gift all the Scientific civs (minus Babylon who didn't get a free Tech) into the IA. Of the initial Techs, I'd only be concerned with Steam Power and Medicine; Nationalism is of no consequence and we'll pick it up later at our convenience. We really want Steam Power most, but if Medicine is easier to pick up we might go for it first.

Assuming both SteamPwr and Med were learned, whichever has the most civs who got it free is our first target (ideally, 2 or more civs). See if we can trade whatever we have to trade to get the Tech. If so, great, see if we can roll it into a trade for the 2nd Tech with someone. If not, start Research on it and check every turn to see if the amount of Research we've done is sufficient to allow the trade. Once we have Steam Power, we can see where Coal is, and whether we need to try to acquire it (through trade like I mentioned earlier), and start RailRoading. After we have both Techs, I'd research Sanitation next; I think we want to get to size 20 ASAP because we will need the extra Research power to learn Techs the fastest.

Alternatively, maybe 1 or 2 get one of those Techs, and no one got the other. In that case, I'd research the Tech no one got (between SteamPwr and Medicine), and trade for the other once I'd researched it.

One comment about trading Techs for Gold; I know we can get a lot of gpt with our trades. To maximize the AI's research, we need to obtain just enough gpt to pay our expenses and maybe grow the Treasury a bit. Taking lots of gpt from the AI builds our Treasury, but will add time to our final completion date because the AI will not be able to contribute Techs to us. I'd suggest selecting Research Partners (Persia for sure; maybe the Celts if they pick things up; everyone else is pretty congested) and trading only for loose Gold that they have, no gpt deals. The other non-research civs we can take some gpt from.

Peglegasus- You're UP! (but if Peanut wants to grab it and play right away, I'd say go for it) Mathilda is on deck, and ready to go!

(BTW, it would be really nice if everybody could check the thread at least once a day, and if you have to pass, pass right away, or if you know that you can't play until 3 days from now but you might be up in a day, make arrangements to trade with someone. That would save a lot of 24 hour periods, and still let people participate!)

(Edit - I'll play 9 turns on my next segment to bring us back to ending on the x50 dates.)

got it! once we are in the IA and gift others in i will pause and post to talk about potential trade deals

all right, i'm on turn 3. we have magnetism and are researching metallurgy in 5. i played with a scientist in each town and still can't get it faster than that. someone has researched music theory and traded it all around, and contacts have been traded by the ai as well. my question is: do we want Bach's Cathedral? I haven't seen any discussion about it.

i went ahead and scored music theory in exchange for physics and started on bach's... it's due in 15 turns or so. we are industrial now. persia got steam and everyone else got medicine. persia is being stingy but i got medicine for a steal: music theory and democracy +50 gold. persia wants all our gold, medicine and 19gpt. i don't think so.

so research sanitation now? i wonder if xerxes will trade steam to anyone else. would make the price come down. but noone else really has much to trade. anyway, i'm almost done.

I played 9 turns to get us to 950AD

Turn 0: Things look good. Move a couple citizens to river tiles for a couple extra coins and build times remain unchanged.

IBT: renew spice deal with Persia for wool +40 gold.

Turn 1: 870AD: not much.

IBT: Newton's complete in Carthage. Leptis minor completes bank.

Turn 2: 880AD: Drop research to 80%. Research time unchanged.

IBT: Hamurabi asks for world map. We decline. We research magnetism, now on to metallurgy. Everyone knows everyone now, excpet the Romans don't know the Babylonians. The Light House is obsolete, the palace expands... and India lands a longbow north of Bactra.

Turn 3: 890AD: Persia has Music Theory, and so do several others. Trade Physics to Greece for Music Theory. Leptis Minor begins Bach's Cathedral, 18 turns.

IBT: Greeks offer their map for Theory of Gravity... ha! Indian longbow attacks Bactra and is killed. Leptis Magna completes bank.

Turn 4: 900AD: move some workers towards the capital to start rails once we get coal.

IBT: Theveste completes cathedral. Oea completes bank.

Turn 5: 910AD: nothin

IBT: India offers map for Theory of Gravity. nope. India takes Bactra.

Turn 6: 920AD: nothin

Turn 7: 930AD: more of the same.

IBT: We research metallurgy and enter the Industrial Age!

Turn 8: 940AD: the palace expands. sell metallurgy to Persia for 100 gold, map, and Democracy. They offer an additional 42gpt but I don't take it. They get Steam Power. Gift Greece into the IA and they get medicine. Germany gets medicine. Ottomans get medicine. Trade music Theory and Democracy +50 gold for medicine from Germany. Sanitation in 6 turns. Xerxes wants a ridiculous amount for Steam Power.

IBT: Celts offer world map for Physics. Sure mate. Here ya go. Celts declare war on Persia?! Knock yourself out, man. Persia decides to build Bach's cathedral on a 4 tile island! You gotta be kidding.

Turn 9: 950AD: Not much. But... Persia has traded steam power to Germany! Germany will accept wool, world map, +2000 gold for it. We have something like 2700 gold in the bank. I think it's worth it but I wanted to see what you all thought.

Leptis Minor: Bach's Cathedral in 12
Theveste: Bank in 6
Oea: Colosseum in 2 (Wasn't sure really what I should build. Probably should have peeled off a worker first)
Carthage: University in 3 (didn't realize until late that Carthage still needs a temple and a cathedral)
Leptis Magna: Colosseum in 2 (needs cathedral too)

Most of our workers are down by the capital to be ready for railroad work. I should have built a couple workers when other builds completed... sorry about that. There are a couple other workers that we might want to use to road through Bactra to the ivory colony. And when our deals are up with India I vote for stomping on their colonies. I would raze the two to the west and maybe gift the northern couple towns to Persia or Rome.

The save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_AD0950_01.SAV)

Well done Peglegasus.
I'll look at the save, but then I've got to go to bed. (It's getting quite late in here.)
Also I've got to work tomorrow, so I won't be able to play till in the evening.
So plenty of time for advice and even Peanut to squueze a set of turns in if he happens to drop by.

Thoughts on prebuild for Theory of Evolution?
My vote goes for Oea, since it has the option of prebuilds of Magellans and palace.
Our saltpeter is looking a bit shaky. One culture expansion from India and it's bye-bye saltpeter. So even though I'm not overly keen on fighting the Indians (did I just say tthat?), it might become neccessary.
Railways are available from both the Persians and the Germans. Are we trying to keep both on board or help Persia more?
Definately going to bed now.

I'll have to look at the save (later).

Definitely trade for Steam Power if we don't have to hurt our research power much (I'd pay a little gpt maybe 10-15 or so, but if we can get it for Gold, go for it.) Besides, we should be able to pick up some Gold from the other civs ... maybe.

Persia or Germany, huh? I think we should help Persia, especially if Xerxes is getting the upper hand on India (are they still at War).

Speaking of India, I'm still leaning towards declaring on them once our deals are done, and kicking them off the continent. That way our Saltpeter is safe, we get direct control of Spices back. Couple that with an Alliance with Persia against them (if they are still at war), and we'll have a good partner and ally.

Getting Steam Power through trade, I'd go for Sanitation next, because of earlier discussion (growth!!).

JS Bach's? Sure!

I usually research Electricity next, then Gift/Trade it around, to allow the AI a shot at learning Repl Parts (and maybe Scientific Method as well) for me. Then head up the Industrialism - Corp - Refining - Steel - Combustion - Flight path to give them time. Might need to be different since we're playing 5CC. A little early for a TofE pre-build, IMO. Maybe about the time we've researched and traded/gifted Electricity; I think we'll want a Factory in place first though, so it might be a bit delayed from that.

Let the gold flow. Get that coal. Change LepMag to Cathedrel (does it have a temple?).

Let the gold flow. Get that coal. Change LepMag to Cathedrel (does it have a temple?).


oops! I was mistaken. Leptis mag does have a cathedral. carthage is the only one that doesn't.

turn0 950AD
Buy steampower from Xerxes for wm and 2022 gold
Oh yes, we have coal. It's on a hill next to Carthage.
Sell steamt to Greece for wm + 9 gold
To Ottomans for wm, 2 gold + 12gpt
Metallurgy to Celts for wm, 21 gold + 2gpt.
Both of them gpts were half of what was on offer.

6 turns left on the deal with India.

IBT: nothing

turn1 960AD
start building the railways

IBT: Ottomans and India sign military alliance against India!

turn2 970AD
LMagna colosseum -> knight
Oea colosseum -> Barracks

turn 3 980AD
Carthage uni -> temple
Wool to germany fo wm & 68 gold

IBT: Greece & Persia sign military alliance against India.
Persia gets Magellans

turn4 990AD
just more railways

IBT:Germans want to talk to us, wanna trade world maps? sure- for ten gold
Rome =) and Persia sign alliance against the Celts.

turn5 1000AD
Learn sanitation. Shall we trade it around?
Persia is offering a substantial amount of gold for it.
No, let's wait for them to have a tech to trade for it.
Time to join the hordes against India is approaching so let's see
if there's anything they could offer us first?
Not much, 38 gold and wm for democracy.

Get the knights in place to attack India next turn.
Set research to Industrialization, due in 8.

IBT: Germany and Persia sign alliance against India.

turn6 1010AD
Carthage temple -> cathedral
Lmagna start another Knight as does Thevste.
Deal with India ends.
Declare on India.
Jaipur and Kolhapur get destroyed, no casualties to us.
Kill two longbows (lose one knight) and fall just short of destroying Bactra.
Catch one Indian worker and settle a spice colony.

turn7 1020AD
Oea Knight -> hospital
Catch Bactra ( one tough old spear in there, red lined three vet knights before dying), destroy it.

IBT Persia and Greece sign alliance against Celts
Persia and Babylon sign alliance against Celts

turn8 1030AD
Celts start Smith's- what? they've got economics?
We swap it for democracy.
Xerxes has Nationalism, won't trade it to us though.
We sell Economics to him for Horses!, wm, 37 gold + 12gpt (our current gpt net gain is 0)
Ottomans economics for wm, 18 gold + 4gpt (again 50% of the offer)
Greeks economics for 121 gold +wm
babs 12gold + wm
Gandhi won't talk to us, I wonder why :mischief:
Change production in LMagna and Thevste from Knights to hospitals.
I didn't think we'd see horses again any time soon after we started war with India,
that's why they were started in the first place. Now that we've got horses for anpther 20 turns, no hurry.

turn9 1040AD
Destroyed the last Indian town from OUR island. (never saw a single elephant btw)
Got three ivory colonies in the north now (two more Indian workers)

turn10 1050AD
Just more railways.
We lose three luxuries as deals end.
I'll leave them for you Steve to negotiate.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_AD1050_01.SAV

Mathilda on the rampage!

I've got the save; nice job Mathilda! (Too bad for Gandhi). Xerxes is looking Annoyed; I think I'll gift him some Luxuries. How about signing an Alliance against India? I've found that forming Alliances really helps down the road, especially for Diplo Victories.

I notice there's another coal in Ceasar's territory that we would control if he wasn't around; I think his time has come (anybody disagree?)

I'll also make the trades around to get our Luxuries back up to 7. Very nice, JS Bach's completes in 2; 3 cities are about to complete Hospitals (might convert over to Factories, however; we won't be able to grow much until after our Railroads are complete. We only have 10 Workers right now; I'd like to get to about 25-30, finish Railroading everything, than Join for fast growth.)

I'll play it later tonight. PLease post any comments or suggestion.

is caesar's coal close to our culture or would we have to put a colony on it? I haven't looked at the save... I'm fine with knocking a city or 2 out but I don't think we should eliminate Rome completely. Do we have enough units to block settlers from settling on our northern colonies?

I agree with the worker situation. I didn't really think about it during my turns until all of the cities were a couple turns into their builds. I think when each city completes something they should put out at least one worker before starting another build.

Yes the coal is within our Cultural Radius, once Byzantium is gone.

I've completed the next set of turns, up to 1150 AD. Here's the Log:

Turn 0, 1050 AD
Start rearranging Forces to take on Rome; Plan is to destroy Byzantium (gaining a 2nd Coal) and Neapolis, the remaining cities are on the corners of the Continent and can be taken or left in place.
Gift Ivory to Persia; sign Alliance against India with Persia
Ottomans: trade Sanitation for Dyes, WM and Alliance vs India
Greece: sanitation for Incense, 26 Gold, 5 gpt and Alliance vs India
Babylon: SteamPower and Medicine for 23 Gold, 5 gpt and Alliance vs India
Celts: Sanitation for Silks and Alliance vs India
Persia (again) : Sanitation for 22 Gold, 8 gpt and WM
Gift Luxuries to Celts, Greeks, Ottomans and Babylon

(IBT we get to add a 2nd Floor to our Palace's Left Wing)

Turn 1, 1060 AD
8 Knights are in position in L Minor

Turn 2, 1070 AD
L Minor completes JS Bach's, start on Worker; everybody else switches to Smith's
DOW on Rome
Byzantium is razed (we get a 2nd Coal, a Worker, and one Knight Promoted)
2 Workers Captured
3 Elite NumMercs sent ahead to Neapolis to be Archer Bait

(IBT, What does Rome do? DoW on Ottomans! Of Course! ... ???)

Turn 3, 1080 AD
Learn Industrialism, next Electricity (9 Turns at 100%, -38 gpt,
Switch all builds to Factory immediately (except Worker at L Minor)
L Minor fin Worker, beg Factory
Kill Roman Archer, capture 2 more Workers
7 Knights in position to Strike Neapolis; 3 NumMercs adj to Neapolis
Xerxes has MilTrad and Nationalism

Turn 4, 1090 AD
Neapolis is razed (no losses at all so far), gain 2 Workers
Kill a loose Roman Archer

Turn 5, 1100 AD
Recall Knights; we'll wait to jump Roman Archers with Elite Units

Turn 6, 1110 AD
Carthage completes Factory, begins Worker
Oea finishes Factory, begins Worker

Turn 7, 1120 AD
Carthage fin Worker, beg Cathedral
Oea finish Worker, beg Smith's (14 Turns)
L Magna fin Factory, beg Worker

Turn 8, 1130 AD
L Magna fin Work, beg Hosp

Turn 9, 1140 AD
Theveste fin Factory, beg Worker

Turn 10, 1150 AD
Theveste fin Worker, beg Hosp
L Minor fin Factory, beg Worker

Check around, Free Artistry has been added to Known Techs out There
done

End of Turnlog

So we are at war with Rome, but not doing anything about their remaining 3 cities. We can sign peace at any time, but I thought we might let him spit out a few more archers and see if our Elite Knights might get a Great Leader.

We're still at war with India, and are allied with most everybody else against Gandhi. 10 more turns to go in the Alliance, and I haven't seen any units from India (besides Persia is taking Indian cities, so I think we've nothing to worry about from Mahatma).

We know Industrialism uniquely; Persia knows Nationalism uniquely; and some know MilTrad and/or Free Artistry as well. We have 2 turns to Electricity; recommend we trade Electricity and Industrialism to Xerxes for Nationalism, then trade Nationalism around for the other Techs, and gift/trade Electricity as well. We need Electricity in the hands of the AI right away (so they can learn Replaceable Parts and maybe Scientific Method for us); gift/trade it to everybody (except India and Rome). Next Tech we learn should be Corporation, and we should continue along that path until we learn Flight.

City run-down:
Carthage, complete Cathedral (1 turn), then a Worker (1 turn and growth), then go to Hospital
L Magna, complete Hospital (2 turns), then a Worker (1 turn with growth), then, maybe UnivSuff for a pre-build for something (or to finish)
Theveste is working on its Hospital
Oea is building Smith's; we'll see if it can beat out the other civ's pre-builds
LMinor completes a Worker, and should build Hospital next

Most Grassland/Plains/Hills have been railroaded; Mountains are still to be Worked and then we can start Joining Workers. Maybe do some Irrigation at Carthage and LMinor to build Workers quickly and feed the other, then do a Mass-Join at those two. Carthage has some Forests to be cleared as well.

We could build some Settlers and found a city or two up North, then gift them away to someone, just to place cities where they're not likely to impact our colonies. This would make it easier to police the open territories while maintaining our Luxuries, I think.

OK, Keith Larson --- You're UP!! (Peanut on deck)

1150 AD Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_AD1150_01.SAV)

Comrade Peanuts - my sincere apologies for my absence. I was overwhelmed with work & family issues this week past and could not even get near my computer at all for a few days. Plus I had a conversion from dialup to ADSL this weekend and did it work first time ? Not bl***dy likely that's what. But after some choice words (well ok explicit threats really), tinkering with ethernet cards, and remembering to adjust firewall settings, it finally worked today.

I hope to be able to play when I am up next. I have to catch up with what looks like amazing progress and inspired play from you all. Perhaps we should rename the team to "The Much Better than Peanut Team" in recognition of the relative contributions to this game.

Good job CivSteve! I got the file and will play tonight (US Central Time).

Turn 0: 1150 AD
As always CivSteve has left everything in order.

Turn 1: 1160 AD
Greece and Rome have signed an alliance against India.
Bab and India have signed a peace treaty.
Carthage finished Cathedral and starts worker.
LMinor finishes worker and starts Hospital.
Babs are building Shakespeare’s.
Roman archer comes out to play and is dispatched by an elite knight.

Turn 2: 1170 AD
Learn electricity and start corp.
Carthage completes worker and starts hospital.
LMag completes hospital and starts worker.
Germany starts Shakespeare’s.
Another archer comes out to play and is killed.
Trade Electricity, Industrialization, WM and 105 gold for Nationalism with Persia.
Trade Nationalism for Free Art, MilTrad, WM, 50 gold and 15 gold/turn with Ottomans.
Trade Nationalism for WM and 90 gold with Greece.
Trade Nationalism for 29 gold with Germany.
Trade Nationalism for 125 gold with Bab.
Trade Nationalism for 13 gold with Celts.
Trade Electricity to Bab. for 78 gold/turn.
Give Electricity to everyone else.
Move slider up to 100% and will learn corp in 7 turns.

Turn 3: 1180 AD
LMag finishes worker and starts Universal S.

Turn 4: 1190 AD
LMin finishes hospital and starts Colosseum.
Thevesta finishes hospital and starts granary.
Bombay finishes Smith’s and Babylon finishes Shakes.
Everyone switches to Universal Suffering.
LMag switches from US to Rifleman.
Oea switches to US.
Upgrade some of our knights and Muskets.

Turn 5: 1200 AD
Ottomans and Rome are at peace.
LMag finishes Rifleman and starts another.
Another archer makes and appearance and is done away with.
All productive tiles are railed and start adding workers to cities.
Corp is now down to 3 turns.

Turn 6: 1210 AD
Carthage finishes hospital and starts Bank.
LMin finishes Colosseum and starts wealth.
Thevesta finishes granary and starts colosseum.


Turn 7 1220 AD
LMag finishes Rifle and starts wealth.
Trade WM and 240 gold for furs with Persia.

Turn 8 1230 AD
Learn Corp and start Refining in 9 turns.
Switch LMag and LMin to StockEx.
Lost our supply of horses.
Trade Industrialization for Horses, WM, 9 gold/turn and 20 with Ottomans.

Turn 9: 1240 AD
Lost Incense, Silks, Dyes.
Persians have destroyed India.
Thevesta completes colosseum and starts StockEX.
Archer comes out to die and does.
Trade Celts Indust for WM and Silks.
Trade Bab. Indust for Incense.
Give Germany Indust and Wool.

Turn 10: 1250 AD
Carthage completes Bank and starts harbor.
Kill another Roman archer.
Persia now has Communism.
Trade Ivory for WM and 190 gold with Persia.
Give Wool to Greece.

After action report:
We are still at war with Rome, it might be time to think peace. Persia is Furious with us for some reason. We are only 4 turns from Universal Suffering.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_AD1250_01.SAV

Good set of turns, Keith! We're really marching along, now.

It looks like Persia is Furious, Celts are Annoyed and Germany is Cautious. Perhaps Persia destroying India before the Alliances are over has soured some. Or maybe its jealousy. Or maybe Xerxes basic aggressiveness is starting to show. We may want to build about 5 Cannons to assist our Cavalry in case someone decides to land a bunch of Riflemen and Cavalry in a mountain space or something. We have Coal and some Luxuries available to gift around. We may have to play some defensive warfare soon; if we do, be sure to sign up allies against the Aggressors!

I guess we can sign peace with Rome. They can't hurt us and the occupy Space that someone else would otherwise try to take. BTW, we should place a 2nd unit on the space just SW of the NumMerc guarding our Spice Colony. Those two coastal spaces are adjacent to the Spice Colony; by placing units there no one else can land a Settler, form a city, and remove our colony. If they land anywhere else we can move units to block them from forming a city such that it removes our colony. (And I think forming some cities up North and gifting them away is a good way to protect our Ivory colonies; maybe after we bulk up to size 20)

Refining is on the way, and Steel, then Combustion, then Flight should be the order. We can use whatever Tech we have to trade for Luxuries, or specifically Replaceable Parts or Scientific Method, if they become available. Otherwise, I'd mostly hold them.

Carthage can be turned into a 1 turn Worker Factory at size 12; needs both Cattle and 5 Grasslands Irrigated. This would really speed up all our cities reaching Size 20!

OK Peanut, You're UP!!

Persia's mood has been on a definate downward spiral for a while now, and I'm expecting a DoW from Xerxes at any time now.
The problem is that he was very successful in drawing everybody with him against India. Will he be able to do the same against us? Maybe. Maybe not, we might not be the only ones against who he broke deals by destroying India.
The amount of coastal mountain squares is limited, so how about occupy those with the available troops. Xerxes landing his troops on grassland won't be quite as dangerous. If we still have workers available, rail those coastal mountains so that it's easy enough to get the troops to attack the landed troops as well.
Who would be a safe option to gift the nortern new towns to? Babs maybe? They seem to be struggling to keep up, so wouldn't be much of a threat.
M

Ok - lets see if I can squeeze in a quick round. The write-up may be a little sketchy but here goes ... stay tuned

Hurraayyyy! Go Peanut! :banana: ( I know that's a banana, but its' quite close isn't it? )

:( X-team and Smackster have managed to squeeze past us in the scores :confused:

The Team Figurehead takes the wheel and off we go again ... hold on tight and watch for those rocks ! PS Mathilde - bananas are close enough !

Pre-turn : Everything looks in fine shape (as is usual from Keith). Looks a little different to when "ol' figurehead" was last in the captain's chair though ... We wake some units and send them to stand guard on the windswept northern coast, just in case unwanted camping parties appear.

IBT : Alexander wants us to fight the Celts for him. We graciously decline, but give him a free map for his trouble. Dull otherwise.

1255 AD : Leptis Minor starts a coal plant (for the extra production). Our palace becomes even more grandiose. No Romans to kill this time. Carthage becomes a foodbowl and the people start to gorge themselves in preparation for some frantic breeding. (The mind boggles ... but there it is nonetheless !)

IBT : Nothing interesting apart from a suicidal Roman archer heading our way.

1260 AD : We call up a few cheap MIs for coastal guard duty. We rail some of our empty northern territory so we can move units about faster. The Roman Archer didn't last long - but alas no leader.

IBT : Shifting alliances in the perennial wars - Greeks vs. Ottomans now. Hammy wants to swap maps. Ok.

1265 : LMinor up to 104 spt net production. Workers on cleanup duty. Units to northern guard duty. We now own another of those big statue thingys in Oea - that UniSuff lady that looks like Mary Poppins in a stiff breeze standing on telephone books.

IBT : Nothing interesting. No new knowledge amongst the barbarians.

1270 AD : We move to guard the border with Caesaraugusta and lo ! Caesar is sending a settler into OUR back yard ! Sorry Julius, but no. Alas, no leader ... yet again. We gain 2 slaves though for our efforts.

IBT : Brennus demands Coal. We respectfully decline. He backs down. Perhaps we should sell him some ? It would mean a stronger economy for him.

1275 AD : We start to stockpile some cannons just in case we want to "salute" somebody. Ok, we sell Brennus 20 turns of Coal to keep him busy for a while. No Romans to kill. Come on Big Julie - where are you ?? We will give you one more try and then you can have some peace.

IBT : Otto joins the Greek wars - on the other side I think. What's it matter anyway ? Julie coughs up another Archer.

1280 AD : Bingo ! Thanks Julie - we owe you one. You can have peace for a while. Hamilcar emerges from the heat of battle and asks "Ok, whadd'ya want me to do ?" We resolve to ask around or leave it to the next player. More strategic railing in the north after pollution cleanup is finished. Some railing and guard cavalry in the central mountains in case some bozo decides to invade there. Otto has Dyes for sale courtesy of his new Greek war. We buy some for Ivory & 150g.

IBT : Nothing of interest. Well to tell the truth, nothing at all actually - interesting or not.

1285 AD : We are very Refined, and are now preparing to Steel ourselves for a bright future. Thar's Oil in our northern tundra ! More reason to stuff this land full of guard units. Nobody else knows nuffin' (except Communism - whoopee !).

IBT : Nothing to report. See the last IBT comment for more detail.

1290 AD : More strategic railing. A few more cannon stockpiled, and more units placed on border guard duty. Oea builds a hospital and starts a Stock Exchange.

IBT : Nope. Still nothing interesting.

1295 AD : More railing and stockpiled cannon.We are building BM in L-Magna just for the fun of it.

IBT : Absolutely nothing at all. Nil. Zip. Not a murmer from the barbarians.

1300 AD : Oea and Theveste bulked up with joining workers. More pollution cleaning and military rails in the north . We now own 9 cannon.

Gratuitous advice : Workers are ready to road up & colonise the Oil. Those thickhead barbarians STILL haven't researched anything useful. What are they up to ??? A few more guards up north and we should be safe from blundering camping parties. Steel in 4 turns now.

Oh yes - Hamilcar is sitting in L-Minor awaiting instructions. Perhaps he should be saved for Hoover of something ? L-Minor can build SciMethod in 6 turns from scratch now.

Over to you Captain Peglegasus ! A small warning - There may be one or two workers automated on cleanup as I may have clicked the wrong button for them. They will free up when we are clean but until then they may as well zip around of their own volition. I may have overdone the irrigation around Carthage but I can't quite get it to grow every turn. Ah well ...

The 1300AD Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_AD1300_01.SAV)

Awesome set of turns from our Figurehead! We've got a Leader! Well, absolutely no reason to build an army. The AI have no pre-builds for any Great Wonders right now so there really isn't any competition in that regard. I'd save the GL, maybe for UN or something else. Regarding Theory of Evolution, if we want to go on to Space (and I'd like to), I'd like to save it to finish just as we enter the Modern Era! Learn that last Tech, gift the AI up to the Modern Era, see what they learn, set Research to a Tech they don't know, finish TofE, learn the Tech, trade for the others, start a 2nd new Modern Era Tech, then learn it. We could be instantly 5 Techs into the Modern Era!!!!!

Quite frankly we are production heavy right now; I think we should irrigate everythin that's irrigatable!! We'll have Oil soon, and Tanks later. We have Cannons (soon to be Artillery) and Cavalry; the AI is terrible at invasions, so we don't need a huge army; just enough to defend our cities, deny the AI from trampling our resources and a reserve to throw them off the continent if they come calling improperly. We should drive the populations of LMinor, Carthage and Oea through the roof; this will give us a shot at the Green Laurel.

I think I'd build Coal plants for now, deal with the pollution, then build Hoover's when the time comes (selling off the Coal plants). Hopefully the AI will learn Repleable Parts and maybe Scientific Method before we learn Flight. (We're actually bigger than most of them, and they've been fighting wars constantly; we should provide them whatever Luxuries or Resources we have extra to help them out.)

Alright Peglegasus, You're UP!!

got it. can play and post tomorrow.

finished my turns and uploaded the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_AD1350_01.SAV) . will post my log in a little while. xteam is still ahead of us at 1250AD and we are ahead of smackster for the moment.

Joined a lot of workers to cities to push up the population. Played around with specialists but couldn't really see much of a difference using scientists or tax collectors. I made entertainers instead hoping that the increased number of happy citizens would increase score. I think specialists increase score too, but I don't know if that applies to entertainers. Anyone know? Had to do a bit of irrigating too because cities were maxing out on food.

I wouldn't mess around with Specialists until the cities are at full population; a Specialist only adds 1 'thing' (be it gold, research point, or luxury point) while a working citizen adds food, maybe shields, and at least 2 commerce which becomes 4 gold with a Marketplace and Bank (at 100% Taxes), 4 Research points with a Library and University (at 100% Research) or 2 luxury points (at 100% Luxury). Far better to work the land instead of forming Specialists.

Scoring: each Happy citizen scores 2 points; each Content citizen or Specialist scores 1 point. Unhappy get 0 points. You also get some score for Territory. It's added each turn, then divided by # of turns for an average.

So for higher scoring (research is more important for us!), set any Specialists to be Entertainers until all citizens are Happy, then either Taxmen or Scientists.

Could Xteam have finished? 1250 would blow away any 20K result I've seen!!

OK, I guess Mathilda is up once Peglegasus posts a log.

Good timing, I'll be able to have a turn verrrry soon, just got to put kids to bed.
Must be quite close against Smackster as they are now again ahead of us.
As for the X-team finishing, I did notice a post from Alan H in the second spoiler thread. Might not mean anything though. I mean I have spotted Mad-Bax lurking in our thread as well. Hmmmm..... surely he's allowed being a mod and all.
Back in a bit...

i only made specialists when there was no more land to work. theveste and leptis mag are just about maxed out. actually i think theveste IS maxed out at 20 pop. leptis mag is at 24 and i think will max at 25. oea has 23 and leptis minor 24.

turn log from 1305AD to 1350AD

Turn 0: 1300AD: upgrade "what a champion" to rifleman. Things looking good.

Turn 1: 1305AD: Put a colony on oil. Leptis minor builds a cavalry. Carthage builds a worker. Persia has replaceable parts and won't trade it.

Turn 2: 1310AD: Income drops significantly. Now -60gpt. Leptis minor switches to wealth temporarily to make up a little. Persia still won't trade.

IBT: Ottomans want a MPP. We gift spices instead.

Turn 3: 1315AD: Not much.

IBT: Persia demands Corporation! Our relationships with a lot of the other civs are a bit strained and we really can't afford to lose any of the luxuries coming in. We give it to him. Research steel and begin combustion.

Turn 4: 1320AD: Have to drop research to 80%. Combustion in 10. Might as well sell off corporation now. Ottomans and Greeks have nothing to offer so they receive it as a gift. The Babylonians received it from Persia or researched it themselves. The Celts offer 34 gpt and we accept in order to keep our research rate up.

Trade refining and steel to Persia for Communism, Replaceable Parts, 80 coins and 10gpt. (Was offering 40gpt). We have rubber by Oea and one other source not hooked up. Steel, Refining, and Replaceable Parts are sold around very cheaply or else gifted. Get 10 gpt from Babylon who offered 22.

Workers irrigate some tiles around Oea. Food was maxed out. They could use a harbor there to take advantage of the coastal tiles.

Turn 5: 1325AD: Leptis Magna builds Battlefield Medicine and begins a coal plant. Join workers to Oea... now size 22. Pump Theveste up to 20.

Turn 6: 1330AD: Oea builds a coal plant and starts a harbor. Hook up second rubber source. Germany doesn't have any so we gift it to them.

IBT: Lose furs.

Turn 7: 1335 AD: Renew furs deal with Persia for map +250 gold. Pump Leptis Magna to 22 pop. Gift wool to Celts.

IBT: Greece and Germany sign a peace treaty. Germany declares war on Greece! Madness! Lose horses. That's ok. Have 15 cavalry now.

Turn 8: 1340AD: Leptis Magna up to pop 24... Leptis Minor to pop 24. Realize that with a stock exchange in Carthage we would have 5 and could build Wall Street. Begin Stock exchange.

IBT: Lose incense and silks.

Turn 9: 1345AD: Ottomans, Persia and the Celts have Espionage now. Couldn't you guys have researched something useful? We're giving tech away free over here! No need to steal it. Renew silks with Celts for map +150. Renew incense with Babylonians for wool, map, +100 coins. Rush stock exchange in Carthage for 690 so we can get back to pumping out workers.

IBT: Roman archer and settler enter southern territory.

Turn 10: 1350AD: Leptis minor begins Wall Street in 4 turns. Gift ivory to Persia. Gift wool to Greece... Alexander goes from annoyed to polite!

And that's all. We seem to have some strained relations overseas. Even with all the gifting I did, only the last gift to Greece changed any attitude. Germany- cautious
Greece- polite
Persia- furious
Babylon- polite
Rome- furious
Celts- annoyed.

We have 770 gold int the coffer and are researching combustion in 2 more turns at 96gpt. Once we get back up to 1000 gold we should try to stay above that to maximize benefit from Wall Street. Carthage built a worker every turn except fro the 2 turns it worked on its stock exchange. Have to keep it at size 12 so that it will grow and build a worker every turn.

Currently CArthage is at pop 13, Leptis magna 24 (25 will be maxed), Theveste 20 (maxed), Oea 23, and Leptis minor 24.

Some cities are currently producing wealth because a couple turns into my set I think some gpt deals ended and we were at -60 gpt. We ran a deficit for a couple turns to finish the research project. Those cities should probably switch to infantry or something soon to replace our old MI's.

We research combustion in 2 turns but I think we should hold onto it. Someone is bound to pick up Scientific Method anytime now (probably Persia) and we'll need something to trade for it.

Another thought: since the other teams seem to be running pretty close races, we may want to push the entertainment slider up a notch to increase happy faces and therby score.

I've got a Roman town wanting to join us. is it better to decline (rebuff the rebels) or accept and destroy? Reputation wise I mean?

edit: Suppose I just have to decide for myself. I think I'll rebuff. Sounds safer, doesn't involve 'killing' anyone.

Turn0 1350AD:
I didn't change a thing.

IBT -----

Turn1 1355AD
Join new worker from Carth and two others to Oea.
Now all the cities apart from Carth are at max support.
Romans settler-archer pair wander into our territory near the capital.
I decide to block them, just for fun.
Thevste is losing 9 gpt to corruption, courthouse in 2 turns, let's see if that would help.


IBT: Germans want alliance against Greeks and RoP.
No thanks Bismarck, but you can have our map if that's any help.

turn2 1360AD:
Discover Combustion, Flight next. Set research to 100% at -54gpt (948 in the vault)
Turn all the unemplyed artists to scientists.
No immediate benfit but hopefully will be able to bring the slider back down a bit in a few turns.
Carth worker -> colosseum

IBT -------

turn3 1365AD:
Thevste finishes courthouse. Net gain is 3 gpt as it cuts corruption by four and costs one in maintanance.
a bit of pollution problems, nothing else.

IBT: Romans build a new town in their own territory
as they seem to be having some problems with our immigration officers.

turn4 1370AD:
LMinor finishes Wall Street, the checkbook is balancing nicely again :)
Xerxes has come good, he's done SciMethod for us.
Also he's so impressed with our knowledge of combustion that is willing to trade us
his new knowledge, espionage, all his gold (224) + 26gpt.
Since he's still furious, let's only take sci method, loose gold and 10 of the gpt on offer.
We can easily get espionage from someone else. ---- Didn't improve his mood, why do I bother?
Ottomans we get espionage, 78 gold and horses for combustion
All others we trade combustion for whatever pennies they have.
Can't remeber what the official plan was but I thought I could guide the pack towards
the option of mass production while we do Atomic therory and Electronics.
They'll propably come the same way but we can but try.
Start upgrading units cannons -> artillery, keeping gold above 1000.

IBT: ------

turn5 1375AD:
Persians are obviously building ToE, in Pasargadae. I just had to have a look to see if we really can afford to wait.
Here's how it looked:

Oh s***!(seriously have problems with this now, can't get any of the buttons, bold and link or smilies or such to work. must be the pop-up blocker or something preventing it. I've got the screenshot, just can't get it on here. C**p!)
Anyway, they still had 25 turns left on their ToE. Just thought you would have liked to see town for yourselves.

IBT----------

turn6 1380AD: Made an executive decision to dispand our navy (of two galleys).

IBT: lux deal with germans end, they want something different so we give them
Espionage for their dyes map and loose change.
Roman town of Burundisium is apparantely all done being Roman. They want to join us! - Rebuff.

turn7 1385AD, not a thing.

IBT ------

turn8 1390AD,
Carth is producing workers, Lminor infantry, everyone else on wealth.
Trades again:
Scientific method to:
Ottomans 58g + 15 gpt
Greeks for nothing
Germans for nothing
Babylonians for 18g +5gpt
Celts for 51g
Nobody had anything of intrest.

IBT ---------

turn9 1395AD
No need for any more workers so Carth stars saving shields by strating intelligence agency.

IBT--------

turn10 1400AD
Learn Flight, no new knowledges amongst the others.
Set reserch to Atomic theory.
Convert all spares to scientist again and this time it actually cut one turn off the due date. (Due in 8).
Pollution in LMinor makes production look ridicilious, it CAN do infantry in 1, but not with pollution.
Pollution where the workers are now made it loose those shileds, hence the shortage of two.

That's all folks!
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_AD1400_01.SAV

Awesome! Something you can do to affect mood (hopefully, a bit anyway). We're trading Techs for way under value. Gift the AI (Persia, Germany, whomever) 100 gold prior to the trade, then make the trade getting your 100 gold back! This way you make a gift everytime, improve attitude (hopefully) and get to make your trade!

Yes, Atomic Theory is next. If we don't need to renew any luxury deals soon, I'm planning to give Combustion (maybe Flight, too) away. There's a chance the AI might research Mass Production for us (I think that's next) while we go AT, Elec, and Radio. Then we can finish up the upper track knowing we did everything we could to let the AI help us.

The game sounds pretty solid, except for the deteriorating moods. I love the sizes of the other 4 cities!! We'll want to get several Marines protecting our metropolises.

I guess I'm next. Might be able to play tonight (I'll try), or maybe at latest tomorrow night.

If we don't need to renew any luxury deals soon, I'm planning to give Combustion (maybe Flight, too) away. There's a chance the AI might research Mass Production for us (I think that's next) while we go AT, Elec, and Radio. Then we can finish up the upper track knowing we did everything we could to let the AI help us.

I already did. I gave away combustion on turn 4 hoping for that Mass production.
I'm sorry my turnlog wasn't very clear. I souldn't have really played last night but gone to bed. Just couldn't help myself.

Yes you did! (Shows what happens when I quickly scan the log and try to post some general plans; I invariably miss something.)

It's been very busy this last day or so. I will play and post tonight (US West Coast time).

Just thinking about things, and how we could have done a bit better. Two Areas. 1.) Carthage is our Super Science City, but it was also our Worker maker, to bulk up all our cities. Our Science has suffered because of that. We should have used Oea and Leptis Minor as our Worker makers, and bulked Carthage up first! 2.) Flight nullifies the Colossus. Along with 1.), we should have learned Flight last to leave the MidAges. Since we got Replaceable Parts before we Learned Combustion, we could learn MassProduction while waiting for Scientific Method, and leave Flight to the AI; this should have been an option laid out.

Oh Well. We play and learn ... every time!

We had this work training session last Saturday done by this 'guru' consultant.
He talked a LOT of crap but one good thing he said was about games.
A GREAT game is defined by three things:
1. Clear rules
2. Everybody knows what the goal is
3. You can never completely master it.
And I think that's what makes civ a great game.
Even the masters always learn something new. :)

Civ IS a great game!! :) (But its rules are far from clear)

Played the turn set nearly on autopilot:

Turn 0, 1400 AD
Set Carthage to build Worker.
AT in 8
Hmm, our Luxury trades are slightly off; Incense and Silks renew in 9 turns, but Dyes not for 16. This makes trading harder, because we want to renew ALL luxuries with one trade.
Carthage is building Workers
LMinor is building 1 turn Infantry
Everyone Else is building Wealth

Turn 1, 1405 AD

Turn 2, 1410 AD
Switch LMinor to Wealth, too.

Turn 3, 1415 AD
Persia has Atomic Theory. Gift 100 Gold; Trade Flight for AT, All his gold and some gpt
Gift Gold, then Trade Atomic Theory to everybody else, getting WMs, Gold and some gpt
Electronics, 8 turns
Cities building TofE, and times to complete
Pasargadae: 17 turns (1500 AD), 90% Science
Ninevah: 19 turns (1510 AD), 40% Science
Bjorgvin: 33 Turns (fugidaboutit), 40% Science
Konigsburg: 60 Turns (huh?), 40% Science


Turn 4, 1420 AD

Turn 5, 1425 AD

Turn 6, 1430 AD

Turn 7, 1435 AD
Renew Furs with Persia, WM and 220 Gold (hey, he's up to Cautious now, from Furious!)

Turn 8, 1440 AD
Romans and Ottomans sign a MPP (so don't go to war with Rome!!)

Turn 9, 1445 AD
Renew Silks deal with Celts for Spice. Babylon doesn't ask to renew his Incense deal.

Turn 10, 1450 AD
Set Sci to 60%, still finish Electronics in 2 turns
Now Babylon breaks the Incense deal! Renew for WM, Wool and 200ish gold
Now all our traded luxuries are off from each other! Bother

End of Turnlog

Persia saved us 5 turns off Atomic Theory. We have 2 turns to go to learn Electronics. Tricky part: Xerxes finishes TofE in 10 turns, right around 1500 AD. We should aim to finish it around 1490 (in case he shaves a turn off.) So we should probably start on TofE right now (I should have done this) in Leptis Magna (I think; use a city that'll finish it in 8 turns.)

This means we have 2 turns to finish Electronics, and then 6 turns to learn the next Tech, hopefully Radio. I've been building Workers in Carthage; lets do two more turns of that, then pop it up to Maximum with Worker Joins. (BTW, most of the Workers are on automatic (sorry), so Keith will have to activate them to do this.) Hopefully, with a Size 20 Carthage, we will be able to research Radio in 6 turns.

So, if we're really, REALLY lucky (best case scenario), we learn Electronics, then Radio, someone else has learned Mass Production which we trade for, we finish TofE, get Motorized Transport for free Tech 1, gift the Scientific Civs into the Modern Era, see what they got, set our research goals to something else, get that as free Tech2, then trade for the Techs the Scientific civs got. It's really unlikely that the AI will learn MassProd and MotorTransp for us (which is the only way we'd get two free ModEra Techs), so I'm hoping for 1. Finishing TofE a turn later (in 1495) might work if we need an extra turn, so Keith, you can slow down the production if you deem it necessary.

We're getting close to the Modern Age; assuming we're going for Space, I'd like to think we could get Computers pretty quickly (either from a Scientific civ, or as a possible free TofE tech) so we might want to start pre-builds for Research Labs, and a pre-build for Seti Project in Carthage (Palace might do). My philosophy on Space Victory for Research is let the AI learn Rocketry, Space Flight (and whatever else) while I research Computers, Fusion (build the UN for sure), continue along the Computers Track to Robotics, then along Fusion Power and The Laser, next Ecology and SythFibers, and finally whatever the AI hasn't researched on the Rocketry Path. This gives me good trade possibilities, and I've got the deeper Techs first before Space Flight is generally known, so the time from Space flight to Launch is shortened (less chance of Nukes entering the game; I've never actually had a nuclear exchange of any kind!) With pre-builds in our cities we should be able to launch quickly, about the same time all the Techs have been researched.

One other thing: I irrigated all the mined grassland around, for growth. Feel free to mine it back if you need production. And we should probably build Hoover's Dam somewhere as well; at least we can save some maintenance that we're paying for coal-plants, and sell them as well.

Alright Keith, You're UP!!

1450 AD Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_AD1450_01.SAV)

Looks great CS (both progress and the plan). Btw - the Dyes deal was grabbed when Germany declared war on Greece. That's why it's out of step. I figured any lux that was on offer was worth buying.

Yeah lets go for Space - we did the UN a while ago. It will be a challenge shepherding the AI along the right research paths and I want to see how it is done.

Good job CivSteve! I wish I would have spoken up about Flight. I was wondering why we were making a beeline to the one tech that would turn off the Colossus. I just assumed that there was something I was missing. I agree with the general plan that Steve layed out. I will not be able to play for about 8 more hours, so if anyone has some advice please post it.

Turn 0: 1450 AD
Switched LMag to ToE.
Upgraded our last 3 cannon.

Turn 1: 1455 AD
Persia learns Electronics. We sell Ivory for Electronics, WM, 19g/turn, 15 gold.
Persia also starts Hovers Dam. We start Hovers in Thevesta in 12.
The best we can do for Radio is 9 turns! We can learn Mass Production in 7 which will be perfect for the ToE.
Give everyone else 100 gold and get it back trading Electronics.

Turn 2: 1460 AD
Celts demand wool. I happy give it to them.

Turn 3: 1465 AD
Rome sends a spearman/settler pair out of Ceasaraugusta. I move to block.
Carthage builds last worker and I start growing the pop. Sorry I did not read Steve’s post more closely. I see he planned to move radio down to 6 by the increased population of Carthage. Too late now and I don’t know if it could have been done anyway. Carthage starts Intel Agency as a pre-build.
Have to clean up some pollution.

Turn 4: 1470 AD
Carthage is now at 22 and I don’t feel so bad now. There was no way we would have gotten Radio in time.
Rome declares war on Greece. Greece starts Hovers and we lost our horses.
More pollution clean up.

Turn 5: 1475 AD
Germany declares war on Greece.
Want to help Greece out and trade them Flight for horses and WM.

Turn 6: 1480 AD
Lost our Dyes.
Three nations know Mass Production.
Trade Germany Flight for Dyes, WM and 5 gold.
It is pointless to start a new tech now. I will convert scientist to entertainers and try to max out happiness for two turns.

Turn 7 1485 AD
Nothing to note.

Turn 8 1490 AD
Celts declare war on Greeks.
Complete ToE, learn Mass Production, Radio and Motorized Transport.
Everyone that could switches to Hovers but I still think we got it.
I trade MotT to Persia for WM, 56gold/turn, and 87 gold.
I trade Ottomans MassP for 6 gold.
I trade Greece MassP for 42 gold and 5 gold/turn.
I trade Germany MassP for 10 gold.
I play the gift 100 gold and get it back in trade for MotT with Ottomans, Greece and Germany.
Trade MotT to Celts for 203 gold and 70 per turn.
Greece know Ecology and the rest know Rocketry. I can get Rocketry for a ridiculously high price and Greece will not even think of selling Ecology. I will let the AI trade around to get the price down. I start us on Computers at max. This will take us only 11 turns and the AI is cash strapped for now. We should be able to trade computers for the other two at that time. We are still at +121 cash!
Will have to move workers to Carthage to take out mines to slow production there next turn.

Turn 9: 1500 AD
Babylon declares war on Greeks.
Lower production around Carthage.

Turn 10: 1505 AD
Ottomans and Greek are at peace.
OK Carthage is set to build IntelA in 9 turns and we should get Computers in 9 turn. The next person must make sure that do the “Big Picture” switch or we will waste the pre-build.

After action report:
As I said before we should be able to trade Computers for the rest of the techs. We have some wool, Rubber and coal we can sell or give away.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_AD1500_01.SAV

Expertly steered Keith, as always. Looks like the figurehead gets the wheel again ... so hang on to your hats ! Who knows where we will end up.

Nicely done, Keith! This part of the Industrial Age is really awkward; I think if we'd played Carthage properly, and left Flight to the AI, we would (probably) gotten 1 Free ModEra Tech with TofE. Lessons learned.

Good plan for using IntelAgency as pre-build for Seti in Carthage. It will still take several more turns after the switch to finish Seti, but as soon as Computers is learned, remember to switch immediately with "Show Me the Big Picture".

Also, we'll be able to build Research Labs in 9 turns, so next person (Peanut) should plan out some pre-builds to get those built immediately. We definitely want to cut down on that 11 turn research rate.

I think after Computers we want to continue down that route to Robotics; I'd leave Fission to the AI to learn for now. We still have our GL in place so once we finish Hoover's Dam, with no pre-builds left for the AI, we should have no problem building UN from scratch, but the GL gives us Insurance on that!

Good Luck, Peanut!

Hi Peanut! Any status to report? It's been a couple of days since you posted.

Pre-turn : Things look great (Keith again ! The master's touch ...) except that Carthage's production is a little feeble. It wil take forever to build SETI when we get computers. Some Lab prebuilds will come in handy soon. We don't trade luxuries yet in case they will help a tech trade.

IBT : Caesar covets that empty land to the north. A Roman settler party crosses the border hoping we are looking the other way.

1505 AD : Sorry Big Julie - buzz off. We block the gap. Some pollution cleanup. Persia knows Amphibious war now, but he hasn't shared it yet. How nice for him.

IBT : Persia demands wool. We decline and he reconsiders. Perhaps if he is a good boy we will send him a nice knitted cardigan.

1510 AD : We sell Persia wool for 370g and 7gpt. We don't want the irritation of a war just now.

IBT : The Ottomen want to swap maps. Ok.

1515 AD : We own a huge dam in Theveste ! Now for a Commercial Dock. We sell our coal plants raising 60g - hardly a good meal and coffee these days !

IBT : Nothing !

1520 AD : Pollution everywhere ! The workers are kept busy and there's a backlog. The tech position is unchanged. Alex has ecology and most of the others have Rockets, and Persia is keeping his little marine secret.

IBT : More of the same. Nothing.

1525 AD : Wow ! The Ottomans have gems for sale ! Yes please Osman ! We beat him down from his demand of Wool & Spice to just 235G. We hurry our docks to start prebuilds.

IBT : Nothing except that Caesar has an embassy with us. Did we forget to do that ... oh dear ... how sad ... never mind.

1530 AD : More cleaning up to do. These factories really are a filthy lot. Nobody is trading any techs !

IBT : Otto tries to heavy us for rubber. We tell him to bounce away and make it snappy ! He pulls back from his rather overstretched position. Maybe we will trade with him soon, or at least send him a rubber outfit for Christmas.

1535 AD : We renew the Persian furs deal for WM & 220G.

IBT : Caesar wants to swap maps. Ok Julie, here you go. Oddly, he is furious with us. Why ever would that be ??

1540 AD : Ok - Computers in one. Time to start ramping up Carthage's production. At last the Ottomans will sell us Rocketry - for Wool, Spice, WM, 192gpt and 4049G. We suggest a place for Osman to put his offer, and we generously volunteer to light the fuse for him after he has firmly wedged it into position.

IBT : Nothing interesting.

1545 AD : Computers done, now onto Minaturization. Mining at Carthage to boost production.

IBT : We renew the Incense deal with the Babs for Wool & 25G.

1550 AD : Carthage at max production for the population. We have two Labs and two more within two turns (oops I mistimed a few of the prebuilds)

Gratuitous advice : Some trades may be possible to prise Rocketry from the Persians and Ecology from the Greeks. I forgot a few prebuilds for Labs until a turn too late. There is one that could be rushed and the other is next turn anyway. I have ordered up a few Tanks and MIs for home defence just in case the Persians get silly on us and invade.

That's it from the Figurehead. Over to you General Peglegasus.

The 1550AD Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_AD1550_01.SAV)

Alright! Good Job, Peanut!

Theveste and LMagna have already completed their Research Labs, and are building Tanks; that sounds good, but I'd build a Barracks in Theveste first (it doesn't have one yet.)

We have 4500+ Gold in the Treasury. The LMinor and Oea can rush their Research Labs for about 250 Gold each, which seems reasonable. (Although finishing the Labs in 2 turns each is not bad either.)

Carthage needs another 14 turns to complete Seti. I'd support mining several more of Carthage's squares to speed that along. (Then irrigate back if you like). The AI has no pre-builds, so I think Seti is pretty safe.

Only Luxury deal coming up for Renewal in the next 11 turns is Gems from Germany; we have 2 Luxuries Bismark would like, so we have a good base trade to renew Gems, so I think we should trade our Computers Tech off.

Any one of Persia, Ottomans or Germany will give us Rocketry and more for Computers (in fact, Persia would also give us Amphib War as well!). Greece has Ecology as a unique Tech, and wants Computer, Wool and about 800 Gold to trade it for Computers. (I 'talked' him down to 800 Gold.) I'd recommend doing that trade first (while Computers is most Valuable), then pick up Rocketry and Amphib War, then trade all of these 4 Techs around (Computers, Amphib War, Rocketry and Ecology) so that the AI will be researching something New. I don't like giving Amphib War to everybody, but the AI likes to finish the last Era before starting the new, and we need as much help as we can get with the ModEra.

Along those lines, I'd like to see all the Infantry upgraded to Mech Inf, and at least 2 MechInf in each Coastal city (and at least 1 in each Interior city.) I'd probably suggest building MechInf for a few rounds also to build up our defenses a bit; the Cavalry we have combined with Artillery shots should knock anybody who invades us back into the sea; what I'm concerned about is any sort of Marine assault that the AI may dream up. (I've never seen one, but that's our most serious potential flaw in our defenses.) I'd keep the Northern picket lines in place, but I see little reason to picket the Romans in the South; the Infantry there can be upgraded, and the other units can replace Infantry in the Northern Picket to be upgraded.

I think that's about it. Peglegasus: You're UP!! (It's been almost 24 Hours so please give us a 'got it'.)

Well, it has been 24 hours. Peglagasus doesn't appear to have been here for 4 days, so I'll play it in about four hours from now if there's no word from him.

What a game this is.
I've been expecting a DoW from someone (Persia) for quite a while now. But I didn't expect this:

turn 0 1550AD
Deal with Greece:
We get ecology - for - Computers, wool, wm and 790gold.
Persia:
We get Amphibious war, Rocketry, 180gold +20gpt -for- computers and ecology.
Ottomans:
We get wm, 50gold + 60gpt - for - Amph war, computers and ecology
Germany:
We get wm, 180gold+30gpt - for - the same 3 techs
Babylon:
We get wm, 15gold + 8gpt - for - the same three + rocketry
Celts:
We get wm, 50gold + 6gpt for the four tech package.
Rome:
Oh yeah - don't sell 'em nuthink.

Rush the two research labs, change Thevste to barracks.

turn1 1555AD
Mine around Carthage, is now starving.
Build some workers elsewhere to keep up with pollution and add to Carth once its done with SETI.
The two researchlabs cut one turn of Miniturization.

turn2 1560AD
Mass transit systems next.
Sell rocketry to Greeks fo gold.(30 +10gpt)
Persia's got space flight but won't sell for anything.

turn3 1565AD
Just cleaning pollution

turn4 1570AD:
nothing really

turn5 1575:
deal with Germany ends, time to deal som luxes.
I don't believe it!! He's only gone and lost the gems somewhere. The swine.
Nobody's got any luxes to sell.
And I just noticed that we havent got any aluminium.
The persians seem to be the lucky owners of that.

Start Intelligence agency in LMinor as prebuild for apollo program.
Should be able to trade sapceflight once we've got miniturization.

IBT: Ottomans and Celts sign alliance against Greece.
Rome and Celts sign MPP

turn6 1580AD Thevste starts solar plant as prebuild for offshore platform.
Dyes deal with germany comes to an end. Get dyes back for rubber.

turn7 1585
Nothing

turn8 1590
Oea starts solar plant as prebuild for offshore platform

turn9 1595
Nothing much
Minit.. due in 1, could drop the slider down to 60%, but leave it to 70 just to be on the safe side.
Up the lux slider, let's make some happy people :)

turn10 1600AD
Perians: Space flight for Minit.. + 470gold

oh my g... I've only just now realised that you need aluminium for apollo program.

Nobody's got any to sell.

I can only find three on the map.
Greece has got one, Persia's got two.
I'd guess that Persia's selling their other one to Ottomans,
since they both got rocketry at the same time as their free tech?

So time for a little policy discussion fellow peanuts.
Are we still going to space? or should we switch to UN asap?
If space does it mean a war with the persians? Greece seems so far away.

(Quite a cliffhanger, eh?)



http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_AD1600_01.SAV

Am I up now? It's a tricky problem, but not insurmountable. The trick is to break the Aluminum trade between Persia and the Ottomans. Requires a DoW on Ottomans and a MA with Persia against the Ottomans. This will be costly, but it can be achieved by trade (Techs, Gold or Resources). Therefore it might need some setting up.

I suppose I've got it, and unless I hear otherwise in the next day or so, I'll try to set this up. I'll probably play tomorrow night.

Yes you are up Steve.
sounds like a good plan :)
Go for it.
How can you be sure they are dealing the aluminium to the Ottomans though?
I know that was my guess and you seem to agree, but what are the chances
that the reason for aluminium not being available is something other than that?

You can use the Investigate City function, available to you after double-clicking the Capital symbol on Leptis Minor's Name Tag. Looking at the map, it turns out that Persia has THREE sources of Aluminum, and Greece has one. I spent about 200 Gold to investigate an outlying city for Ottomans, Germany and the Celts. Here are the results, showing the resources available to those cities:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Peanut_sg4_ad1600Al.png

Ottomans are getting one of Persia's Aluminum resources; I thought Germany might be getting the 2nd since Bismarck knew Rocketry right away, but he isn't. It was either Babylon or the Celts getting it, and I chose the Celts because they were cheaper to check; sure enough Brennus has Persia's 2nd source.

I'm recommending switching to Fission; it allows us to pursue Fusion Power, Laser and Robotics while leaving SynthFibers, SuperCond and Satellites to the AI, and if one of them (other than Persia) learns Fission in the next 10 turns we should have a trade available for it. Knowing it also tells us whether we have Uranium or not, and if not, what we have to do to get it.

OK, I didn't wait long. Here's the next 10 turns:

Turn 0, 1600 AD
Set Research to Fission
Investigated several AI cities; Celts and Ottomans are trading for Aluminum
Upgraded several Infantry to MechInf
Set Theveste and LMagna to building MechInf

Turn 1, 1605 AD
Upgrade last Infantry to MechInf; 2 MechInf in each city
Nothing to trade

Turn 2, 1610 AD
Carthage fin Seti, start on ResLab
7 Turns to Fission

Turn 3, 1615 AD
Persia knows SynthFibers! (He's a powerful researcher)

Turn 4, 1620 AD
Set LMagna to work on Intel Agency (5 turns, same as Learning Fission)

Turn 5, 1625 AD
Rome declares on Greece; everyone except us and Persia is at war with Greece
A Persian and Roman Settler appear up North; We hem them in to where we want them to settle
Oea fin Offshore Platform; start on Palace as Pre-build
Renew Gems deal with Ottomans; we will take the Celts Aluminum

Turn 6, 1630 AD
Persia completes the Internet, and I've got nowhere to save LMinor's Shields!
Persia forms City near Spice Colony; we readjust defenses.
Carthage completes Research Lab, starts on Commercial Dock

Turn 7, 1635 AD
We get an expensive Airport in LMinor
Renew Furs from Persia for WM and 218 Gold

Turn 8, 1640 AD
Pollution Strikes, and is cleaned up

Turn 9, 1645 AD
Learn Fission, start on Fusion Power (8 turns)
Switch IntAgency pre-build in LMagna to UN
Several sources of Uranium around (but not on our island)
Celts have 2! Wouldn't you know, they are the ones I've targeted for Warfare.
Renew Incense deal from Babylon for SpaceFlight

Turn 10, 1650 AD
Carthage finishes Commercial Docks; Offshore Platform next
Still know Fission uniquely, and last deal with Celts expires.
Declare War on Celts!
Check with Persia. We are giving him two Luxuries for 16 gpt and 7 gpt. Both deals are past 20 turns so Cancel them!
What do you Know; Xerxes will MA against Celts for Wool! Do so, and he now has Aluminum to Trade!
Trade Xerxes Ivory, WM and 200 Gold for Aluminum. :D We switch Theveste to Apollo Program (3 turns).
(We could have put Fission and 2000 Gold in the trade to get SynthFibers, but I don't think we're in that much of a hurry, and I'd rather finish the UN in LMagna first.)
Use Space Flight to get the rest to Ally as well (except Babylon, which gets Miniaturization)
Beef up the defenses on our East Coast.

End of Turnlog

So, we're at war with the Celts, and have everybody allied with us against Brennus (except Rome!) We were then able to pick up a free Aluminum from Persia, and are 3 turns from completing the Apollo Program.

VERY IMPORTANT: Oea is pre-building a Solar Plant for a Spaceship part, and has 3 turns left as well; when Theveste finishes the Apollo Program, go into Theveste's City Display, and use the Arrows at the top of the page to go to Oea's city display and switch Oea's build to one of the now-available Spaceship parts. LMinor is also pre-building, but still needs 4 turns, so there's a turn available to switch it to a SpaceShip part.

I'd suggest not trading Fission to Xerxes until we're just about to complete the UN. (We should be finishing Fusion Power about the same time, so we'll be gaining a lead on him.) He'll probably want a lot of cash for SynthFibers, even with Fission to trade. With Luck we'll get one of Satellites/Superconductor from him, and that's probably about all we can hope for (OK, we can HOPE for both :) ). The other AI are hopelessly behind, and I don't expect much from them. Still, I'd research Fusion Power, Laser and Robotics before I started on SuperConductor or Satellites, just to give them a chance. And don't think you have to trade at the earliest opportunity; going along the path we are researching gives us lots of uniquely owned Techs so we can be patient, a bit.

When the 20 turns is up (end of Peanut's turn, if Keith and Peanut both play), we'll want to close out the alliances, declare Peace with Celts, and see if we can get a Uranium from Brennus. And be sure, at all costs, to renew the Aluminum deal with Xerxes!!

OK Keith, You're UP!!!

1650 AD Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Peanut_SG004_AD1650_01.SAV)

Celts have a MPP and ROP with Romans. So if we are to see any Celts, which I seriously doubt, they are likely to be coming through Roman territory.
Btw, what are we saving our leader for, is there a plan?
M

I guess we can monitor that; as long as the Celts have to move at least 3 spaces to reach a city, we will be able to react before they can attack. And if Rome decides to ally with Brennus, that would be the end of Ceasar I think! :)

I'd hold onto the Great Leader in case there's a need to rush a final SpaceShip part. I don't think there'll be a need, btw. Our production should be sufficient to use pre-builds to complete just about any of the upcoming SS parts as they become available. The issue is learning the required Techs; our production should be sufficient. And we should be done with the UN before anyone else can even build it, so there's no need to use the GL there. (I think).

A couple more thoughts and reminders:

Most of our Workers are fortified inside Leptis Magna. I left a few active to move to Pollution sources as they occur. If you need more active, LMagna is the place to look.

Carthage could probably use a Courthouse before it builds Offshore Platform (the current build.) A Courthouse would gain us about half of the Corrupted commerce it's experiencing back; that would be 4 Commerce points which become 24 Research points.

And I'd recommend trading Fission to Xerxes when we have 1 turn left to finish the UN. I don't think he can possibly finish UN ahead of us (we build before the AI in the turn sequence), and Fission will be considerably less valuable once the UN is built. (Of course we will all say 'NO' when asked if we want to hold a vote for Secretary General!)

That's my thoughts for now - Over to you Keith!

Hmmm... no word from Keith.
Peanut, are you available?