SGOTM4 - Game Thread.

Hi everyone, and welcome to your game thread.

Here is the start position.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4.jpg

Note: EVERYONE has to install the correct resource graphics whether or not they have played this scenario or GOTM before. If you haven't done it yet, you had better get a wriggle on.

The saves will be available once the timelock has been released tonight (19th September).

Here are some links you might find useful.

The original GOTM28 Announcement. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/gotm28_india.shtml)
The Draft Constitution (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1733966&postcount=61)
The GOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=71788)
SGOTM4 - Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=100194)
Download latest Save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php)
Upload a Save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm.php)

This Months' sponsored variant is 5 City Challenge the rules for which are as follows.

1. You may not end a turn with more than 5 cities.

Team Leaders: It would be a good idea to PM your team mates to get them all checked in here as soon as is possible. ;)

Good luck everyone! :)

Reporting to the team.... :)
lets get together and discuss a little our strategy for the game

EDIT: While waiting for the rest I'd like to give my 2cents worth of thoughts...

On my personal experiences:
I played 2 test 5CC games for Indians on monarch level. It's quite easy to win actually... Much easier than previous game was....Frankly it all depends on start location and major early resources like having iron and horses...
1st game i achieved 20K cultural victory and second won with space race...

On victory type
Unlike the previous game where we could played for centuries before choosing the victory type we have to come up with the goal at the very beginning..
Obviously 100K Cultural and Domination victories are impossible to achieve by definition.

Conquest would be the hardest victory to produce IMHO, but it could be the one Laurel worthy. On the other hand if we manage to get couple of leader very early and build few AA great wonders we can be in better shape for 20K victory relative to the Jason date/score system....
I am anxious to hear what Tarkeel has to say about the strategy he has for us.

On cities placement:
Having only 5 cities it should be very important to keep cities on the distances where they can use every and each square of land with no overlapping at all if possible. For both of my test games i used RCP5 placement, that allows to have maximum numbers of squares for citizens to work on...

On resources:
This is the biggest challenge in 5CC, or so i felt while playing...
You won't have all possible resources having only 5 cities... In my 1st game I only had available horses, saltpeter and 2 luxuries. and that was for the entire game, i had no iron, no coal, no rubber nothing else. had to trade and purchase everything.
In my second game i was luckier and had iron, 3 luxuries, rubber, coal and uranium and had one city built iron work.
If we choose conquest we probably will be okay since we can always establish colonies we will have to guard, but with conquest it will be hard to keep all this land free and protect it from other AI settlements.
If we choose something else but conquest extensive trading will help...

On research:

It's only a monarch
So i had no problems keeping the lead. But that lead i had was only a marginal in both of my games..
I had to trade tech right away and I had at most 2 techs lead and many times none at all..
Main reason - I had to trade... Many times I traded tech the same or next turn I researched it. I noticed that when i didn't do so
AIs would get it VERY soon and I'd rather get some money from them that allow them to research on their own and get rich quick.
Of course that applied in situation when I ran for a cultural victory and AIs most of the time were not crippled by massive warfare.

On trading:

I traded and traded and traded... starting from industrial ages i never had less than 1000 in cash and still i was able to rush every improvement.
MOst of the time my cities were producing wealth since there was nothing else to produce and military units would cost to much to support.

On warfare:

I had fought quite few wars... I changed to republic as soon as it was practically possible and always stayed in republic.
Republic in non-modded PTW has no unit support and i could not build a huge army... But my army was always up to date and
i always had enough to protect my land, but not for the serious conquest.
Wars on monarch level are easy, and we won't have problems with AIs in any situation, given resources are available.


Well, I think that is pretty much everything i had in mind to share with you guys....

MORE EDITS: I hope DH shows up, i paged week ago, he had problems with CIV disk, but he said he will be available for this game.
If he doesn't report in 2 or 3 days or until it is his turn to play we will have to ask MB for a replacement.

I will take the first 20 turns then. Any suggestions?

@Tarkeel: You had some "major" plans for this game, now is the time to reveal them... ;)
What I remember from this game as gotm28 was that moving NE across the river had been a better startup position than settling in place. Also that if the setup is similar we will have to hold off with at least 2 cities until A: we reach the southern area (Persia) for Iron and B: another island for horses.

VC: either 20K or diplo. Diplo is probably the easiest and also less "luck" sensitive. With 20K we need to have some luck with leaders and being a non-militant civ that could be a problem.

Checking in :)

My main idea for the game, was to go for a 20K victory.. Which might actually be one of the better ways in this. Remember that great leaders can rush wonders here, so we should be trying to stay at war with someone the entire time, and farm leaders for what we're good for.

I'll add some more details to it later, have a nasty cold now :(

Edit: Note that this is relaxed 5CC, we can have more then 5 cities during the turn, just not at the end. (handy for second army)

Edit2: Gong to list our cultural buildings here:

1950 BC: Temple

I will take the first 20 turns then. Any suggestions?

@Tarkeel: You had some "major" plans for this game, now is the time to reveal them... ;)
What I remember from this game as gotm28 was that moving NE across the river had been a better startup position than settling in place. Also that if the setup is similar we will have to hold off with at least 2 cities until A: we reach the southern area (Persia) for Iron and B: another island for horses.


I didn't play original game so i have no idea on what the map was there...
MB changed much of the geography in Rome SGOTM compared with the original game. One can presume he changed map this time as well...

@Wotan: You have 1st 20 turns and remember these 20 turns are probably 50 percent of the end result ;)



VC: either 20K or diplo. Diplo is probably the easiest and also less "luck" sensitive. With 20K we need to have some luck with leaders and being a non-militant civ that could be a problem.

How about space race???? That one is easier than diplo... It all depends on the relative Jason dates... We need to have a good understanding on which winning date in Diplo corresponds to which winning date in 20 k or for Space Race... Personally, I have no idea and if someone can clear this up i'd really appreciate...
One of the reasons we lost previous game was missunderstanding of victory types and date relationships

Checking in :)

I'll add some more details to it later, have a nasty cold now :(

You'd better get better, we will need your talents soon ;)

@Wotan: You have 1st 20 turns and remember these 20 turns are probably 50 percent of the end result ;)

OK so to avoid any confusion at the end of the game any result but the golden laurel will actually be my fault. ;)


How about space race???? That one is easier than diplo... It all depends on the relative Jason dates... We need to have a good understanding on which winning date in Diplo corresponds to which winning date in 20 k or for Space Race... Personally, I have no idea and if someone can clear this up i'd really appreciate...

Diplo and SS both depend on a fast research. With diplo we only need to build the UN in one of our cities. SS need 10 items built over a span of time.

With diplo we could theoretically hold on to one leader until UN and just "follow" the flow in the game and keeping everyone happy with us while doing so.

20K will probably need a luck factor, the RNG god(s) need to be on our side.

All in all I would say that 20K is least influenced by 5CC, SS the most influenced by it. OTOH, 20K is the option with the highest luck factor so: Do we feel lucky? If so 20K. If not Diplo.

I concur with Wotan, out of victory types diplo followed by 20K are the most favorable in 5CC game...
While Space race is possible, it will take too much time to research all the nessesary technologies having just 5 cities and victory will definetely be too late in relation to Jason best date. In my test games with slider set to 100% i was never able to research modern tech faster than 9-10 turns and AIs were not much help.

Does anybody know the Jason best dates for Diplo and 20K victory? or where can i find such information?

We can and probably should start this game as 20K and if we fail to produce 2 or 3 early wonders we should just stick with Diplo.

One important point: If we go for 20K (lets assume we are incredibly lucky at the beggining) we might have to make a desicion at the end... It's more than likely we will build UN before achieving 20K points, and if it is so we will have to choose whether we want to finish a game with diplomatic victory or postpone election for 20K. This decision will pretty much depend on whether best Jason date diplomatic victory comes much earlier than 20K and whether we are not the 1st variant team to finish the game.

Too bad with 5CC green laurels are totally out of the question, and frankly, i don't understand non-variant teams, since this game is going to be ridiculously easy to play on monarch level and not much fun.


EDIT: I have to correct myself here... It looks like all teams play variant.... So, I guess we can target both laurels.... That means a lot of trading to get those happy producing luxuries for our people :)

Sorry for the double posting...
I had nothing to do so i looked at the Jason calculator for GOTM 28 and got the dates... I assume that dates for this game will be either the same or proportional.

So the best dates are:

Conquest 1200AD
Cultural 20k 1760AD
Cultural 100k 1555AD
Diplomatic 1010AD
Domination 970AD
Space Race 1330AD

Max Score 7483

This is the direct link http://gotm.civfanatics.net/calculator/index.php

Knowing this puts Diplomatic victory in a very bad position. We can have a 20K cultural win 700 years (and hellowa lot of turns) later but still be in a better position than if we went for Diplo victory.....

Checking in, but just got back from transatlantic flight, so wont say anything until tomorrow. I've played GOTM35 as a 5CC so have a few ideas. Actually a few ideas of what not to do.

smackster

Lunchtime, so I thought I would use the time to put down my thoughts.

If the map start is identical/similar to gotm28 (all plans below depend on that), moving the Worker E to confirm the existance of a cow would be my first move. If the cow is there I would move the Settler NE across the river and settle there. In gotm28 that move gained a second cow and a spice. (I settled the starting location myself :( )

I plan to build 2 Warriors followed by a Settler. First Warrior goes S, second N. Settler to settle coastal location S of Delhi.

Pottery at 100% followed by Writing in 40 turns.

There will be no Horses on the startup island and the only Iron will be deep within Persia. So three cities built in the opening turns, one city kept from Persia w. Iron and the fifth city built near Horses.

Second city on coast to act as 20K city if we go that road.

I can play tonight (6 hours from now), if you agree to my plans, else I might have to wait until wednesday.

Sounds like a plan. Would it make sense to make a capital 20K city since we can't use FP for prebuilds. Capital might look like more attractive choice with 0% corruption, even without the coastal wonders we can build everything else. (Oracle or Pyramids -4CP, GreatLibrary -6Cp, Hanging Gardens - 4?CP)

No matter which path you choose build that early temple ASAP in 20K city... Temples are awfully cheap for Indians.

Pottery is not a big deal in this game i think sinse we only have to produce 4 settlers. So why bother with pottery???

Not trying to argue but rather playing devil's advocate. :)

It sounds like map features won't let us to have perfect core RCP5 or 6 ring i was hoping for.... Corruption will vary for different cities.

Looking forward for what Smackster has to say on his experiences.

Thoughts on the starting moves

I'm trying to play this, like I have not played it before. So my start moves would be worker to the mountain, settler east and decide from there whether to settle or move again. That combination seems to show the most tiles. If I was MB, I'd tweak the original and move any bonus resources :)

As any game, settling on a river, and getting a bonus resource (or two) in the expanded radius of the capital is most important, and worth moving a few squares for

Thoughts on 5CC

I've played on 5CC now so I'm far from an expert on this

Pottery or not to Pottery

In normal games, the best way to start is obviously with the usual settler factory, and you need a granary for that. I'm not convinced that is the way with a 5CC. Is it better to push out a couple of settlers first? I still think getting a granary is helpful, but maybe not until all 5 cities are settled. Maybe we should decide this based on the start location, and how many shields we get, combined with a forest chop to see how many turns to get the granary.

But back to the question, to Pottery or not to Pottery. Its really nice to be able to start researching a level two at 10/20% from the start. But then to get the granary we need to trade for Pottery. In my experience there is an even chance of that happening before the first settler is built. However if we agree that pushing a out a settler first is a good idea, then we are much more likely to have the contact for Pottery.

I think I'd tend towards the level 2, and if we don't get Pottery then it would not be so bad as we can just keep pushing out settlers, and there are only 4 to produce. Granary is still good even after that, for workers, and just for growth.

Rivers
Obviously its a huge benifit to build next to rivers as we can get our 5 cities all growing to size 12.

City Placement
RCP 5, is certainly optimal, but I wonder if RCP 6 would be better as it gives us more tile coverage. We will have to look at the dot maps to determine. I don't think the corruption difference is that bad.

RCP 6 will help green laurel too, as we'll get more land quickly

The Sea, the sea

Obviously getting a city on the coast would really help. Actually I think this is key as we will eventually want to trade overseas. If we can't get one out of our first ring, we may have to build the 5th city at the coast, the corruption may be a lot worse however.

Victory condition
UN is probably the easiest to get, although I like the idea of a 20k. Not sure where it says we have to decide first.

UN or SS would really challenge our powers of getting the AI to research. My theory here is that we need to keep all the AI tech even at all times, and chose a designated tech researcher, who is not paying us GPT. All the other civs, we need to get into a position where they are paying us all their GPT. The result is that we have lots of cash, and when our researcher gets something, only we can buy it, and then we sell/gift to the others.

Therefore getting into the tech lead is most important. Getting the AI into at least republic as soon as possible too.

First moves concensus

Wotan, how about playing the first move and posting what you see. Then we can make a team decision on the next step. I usually just leave the first 20 for the first person to decide, so its up to you, I'll be on-line all day.

Ok, went home early today so have just fired up the PC and moved the Worker E. The Cow is there!! I suggest moving the Settler NE and settle hoping for the 2nd Cow and the spice being where they are supposed to be... ;)

Edit: Have made the move and settled in 3950, Delhi, no wait, Carthage founded, Warrior started. We are not India we are Carthage.

Research is a new issue too. We are no longer Religious but Industrious so Masonry is in and CB is out. Shall we go 100% on CB? Or 40 turns Math/Writing? Math might be a good bargaining chip since we are definitely first to get it. OTOH everything discovered so far is identical to Gotm28 so we might have but one neighbour on the island.

Spacerace say: India, Greece, Otto, Rome, Babylon, Persia, Vikings, Celts and Germans. In Gotm 28 we had persia as next door neighbour and Rome across the sound on an adjacent island. So maybe we have Greece/Rome as neighbours now. The question then is who is on our island and who is closeby? Carthage's prime enemy should be Rome and on this map still taking Gotm28 into account the only Iron was way south. If M-B is as dastardly as he can possibly be we will have Rome as our closest neighbour since the Iron will give them Legions. If so they share Masonry with us and have WC to trade.

@Wotan, good - start milking the cow :) and do lots of exploring


@Smackster and Wotan Do you think it is possible to have RCP5 or 6 ring on this map????

It's important to decide which city will become 20K city now and my vote goes to capital.... (no corruption and we can't do prebuilds anyways).
And if capital is 20K city my build order would be warrior, warrior, temple,settler, Great Wonder (possibly pyramid or oracle) and 2nd and even 3rd city will produce the other 3 settlers.

EDIT: Didn't know we are not India anymore, just read your entire message

EDIT: CB may be worth researching at maximum, should take somewhere 18-20 turns i'd think????? Early temple is a must in 20K game, but it won't be as cheap as if we were Indians. :sad:

MORE EDITS: Early tech trade is not going to be a big issue whether we go Math or Writing since on Monarch level AIs are not that good and not fast.
If we are going to research writing we still going to be first to research Philosophy and code of laws use those for tech trading and quickest way to convert into Republic. Plus library for great wonder

MORE MORE EDITS: It's even worse situation than i thought, we would not need iron that much if we were Indians and Elephants and perfect timing for Golden age to build all those MA wonders. Beeing a carphage really puts us into the worser position.

I assume we are settled on the 20k then.

In that case, maybe we should go for CB and get that early temple. We should still be able to get ahead in tech as its only Monarch level. Now I'm confused about being Carthage and wonder if this is a mistake, I'll send a PM to MB to check. I wonder if we'll also find its Diety level really :)

Can you post a map?

smackster

I assume we are settled on the 20k then.

In that case, maybe we should go for CB and get that early temple. We should still be able to get ahead in tech as its only Monarch level. Now I'm confused about being Carthage and wonder if this is a mistake, I'll send a PM to MB to check. I wonder if we'll also find its Diety level really :)

Can you post a map?

smackster

Yes, Please clear with MB if we are really Carthage or it is a mistake :confused:

I guess we just assumed it would be India, I had a second look at the announcement and it only says "based on Gotm28 India". I have counted and counted the 20 first turns and am ready to play the remaining turns now. Not much of a map atm but all visible tiles are the same as in gotm28.

No mistake.

Certainly play them as you see fit, we certainly trust your judgement as to what is best.

smackster

OK, it is final and we play Carthage, lets just stay cool :cool:


Now, few words on victory condition and let's finalize this subject:

I guess everyone is on the same page that 20K and Diplo are the best choices to go... (nobody wants to go conquet path yet?)
As i mentioned before there is a huge difference in best Jason dates between 20K and Diplo in favor of 20K.
No doubt we will build UN before we achieve 20K limit... We will have to make a precise calculation at that point.... we will have to add the number of turns between best jason dates and if we reach 20k before the target date we will go 20K path, if opposite happens we finish the game with Diplo victory ASAP.
Tonight, i will try to count exact number of turns between 20K and Diplo victories and we will keep that number in mind...

So our final victory will pretty much depend on that calculation..
What does the team think?

Just some small observations, as my head isn't on straight yet... But we're about certified a despotic GA if we go to early war, and we have (imho) one of the worst UUs...

Also, forget about RCP. It won't matter too much in a 5CC. Use the second city for 20K (we will need to prebuild some), and get a settler out to build it fast, then send the worker to improve it.

Noted about RCP, and you may well be right that it makes little difference. So maybe we should just try to get the best locations. We can decide based on how the map is revealed.

As for victory condition, I think we should start by going for 20k, with UN as the backup if it just doesn't go so well. For UN maximising the tech rate is key, and really that is not totally inconsistent with 20k.

OK guys, the opening moves are in...

Turn log

0 – 4000BC
Sent the Worker E to confirm cows on coast they are there so decide to move Settler across river NE.

1 - 3950BC
Delhi, no Carthage, founded. We are playing Carthagians not Indians in this game. But the startup is not altered from Gotm28, we have two cows and a spice within the “city limits”. Worker to mine BG. Research into CB at 100% ready in 14 turns.

2 - 3900BC
Nothing

3 – 3850BC
Nothing

4 – 3800BC
Mining finished, Road started.

5 – 3750BC
Carthage builds Warrior, Warrior started.

6 - 3700BC
Worker to Cow.

7 – 3650BC
Worker starts mining Cow.

8 - 3600BC
Nothing

9 – 3550BC
Carthage builds Warrior, Warrior started.

10 – 3500BC
Mine finished, Worker starts road.

11 – 3450BC
Carthage expands culture.

12 – 3400BC
Carthage builds Warrior, Settler started.

13 – 3350BC
CB researched, Pottery in 14 turns. Worker starts road.

14 – 3300BC
Nothing

15 – 3250BC
Red border discovered, Rome? Worker irrigates.

16 – 3200BC
Nothing

17 – 3150BC
Worker finishes irrigating and moves to Cow. We met Rome, they are our southern neighbour, not Persia. They are up BW and WC. I will not trade with them but leave the potential trading to the next player so we can have a discussion about it.


18 – 3100BC
Carthage builds Settler, Temple started. Worker starts irrigating.

19 – 3050BC
Nothing

20 – 3000BC
Worker starts road.

After action report:

The Settler is just one tile away from it’s destination, South, hill. I would suggest using this city for 20K, it can use the palace as a prebuild. Using the capital will not give us this possibility.

The Worker, after finishing the road move first to W and road it then on to the spice forest to connect/chop it.

Trading with Rome, I would gamble on finishing Pottery before trading with Rome. They are unwilling to part with both techs in exchange for our two now. With three techs they might be willing…

Next island should be due W of Carthage, and probably populated by the Greeks.

Next city, the third might be right to place at the end of mutton valley, in the coastal grassland wo shield next to river. That should be our last city on this continent until we address the Rome issue as they will probably have the only iron within their territory. In gotm28 it was in one of the hills W of the current roman position. The 5th city should be build on coast on island to the west near horse. All this of course depending on the similarities with gotm28 or if not… ;)

Carthage is a 5 fpt city now, with one cow irrigated an the other mined. It will soon be able to “feed” workers to our 20K city pushing it to size 12 in no time. The temple might be turned into a granary when pottery is researched.

Firaxis score: 64

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/smackster3000BC.JPG

Great!!!!

I will head home in 2 hours and can play tonight...
We still have some time to discuss short term tactics...
As soon as pottery is researched i will switch to granary in capital.

Trading with romans.... what would be the next must have technology???
Map making possibly????

Map Making is not important until we have a west coast city and that city might be placed in position 3 on my map. We need to go over to the western island. IIRC, havn't the gotm map active now the "bridge" is best traversed due west of Carthage.

then i better switch to writing if pottery is researched during my turns

How about putting the 20K city on the plains SE of current location? Will get another hill, and can borrow the cow later on, which will help a lot. Also gets another BG in range.

How about putting the 20K city on the plains SE of current location? Will get another hill, and can borrow the cow later on, which will help a lot. Also gets another BG in range.

Drawback is the overlapping, if possible we should avoid it.

I like that plains site also. I don't think that overlapping a couple of squares matters much. Getting extra shields may well do us a lot of good.

I like that plains site also. I don't think that overlapping a couple of squares matters much. Getting extra shields may well do us a lot of good.


Plains isn't a good idea... I haven't counted but you may loose shields since settling on plains will mean more sea squares city will use not producing any shields.

What size can we maintain with all those mountain squares?

Note that in typical style we take the lead in score, no doubt we'll be in the lead for a long time assuming D plays tonight, Tarkeel tomorrow, and myself tomorrow also :) Now finishing first, is another thing.

Have PM'd DH, not sure where he is.

You're right, you won't gain a hill, as you lose one by moving. Overlap isn't bad thuogh, since the 20K is the most important city we have. We really need to pump workers to improve the terrain asap, and then pump the city, all while trying to sneak out 3 more settlers.

Settling on the hill will give us a bonus when hitting size 7, full benefit from shields in tile, right? Also settling on hill will give us 3 worked hills and one mountain with 1 food surplus at size 12 after despotism ends. We will probably not harvest any workers from the 20k city so no need for a lot of bonus food. If I count it correctly the difference at full "production" will be 2 spt. Hills 18 spt, plains 20 spt.

Another reason for settling on hill: If we are to use the site at 3 on my map they will "merge" culturally after reaching 100 culture. With the plains site this will not happen until one of them reach 1000 culture.

I will settle on the hill :mischief:

We really need to pump workers to improve the terrain asap, and then pump the city, all while trying to sneak out 3 more settlers.

Maybe build a couple of cities and use them just build Barracks in to give us more units and more free units. Then disband the extra cities when we need to settle near resources. Carthage will be able to build some extra settlers when needed wo any real damage to it since it will grow rapidly. At same RCP as second city?

Maybe build a couple of cities and use them just build Barracks in to give us more units and more free units. Then disband the extra cities when we need to settle near resources. carthage will be able to do that wo any real damage to it since it will grow rapidly.

That is an idea... I think it all will depend on where resources are going to be located...
For me it doesn't make sense to build far away totally corrupted city just to get a needed resource, would be wiser to have productive city close to capital and buy that resource...

In my 5CC game, I moved one city around, for gaining resources, and for healing troops on the front etc, but I was trying for conquests there. In this game we probably just want to get our core up and running and not to change it.

If we have resources missing then we may just have to build far off outpost and protect them with our lives.

I have given city placement a bit more thoughts and came up with this idea:

4 cities in a ring around Carthage, one is our 20K candidate the other three "temporary" unit factories to be disbanded if needed in the future. The NW two sites are about the same in terms of benefits, so either will work it all depends on what is under the fog...:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/smackster5c.JPG

I've also put some thoughts into the city placements and agree with Wotan came up with... I've added a map showing RCP5 and 10 rings and proposed city placements, basically exact match of what Wotan has drawn.

I'd suggest we settle that city down the south just to prevent Romans from spreading north.... When time comes to disband a city we shall talk about it, but at the moment the schema drawn will be the most productive.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/proposed_city_placement.JPG

I will start playing in about 2h30 minutes from the time this message was posted

EDIT: Somehow i misscalculated and have 6 cities :) ... Well, we will have to decide if we want to go for perfect ring or use 3 RCP 5 cities and one down south

Just go for the RCP 5 ring

My Turn log:

T1. 2950 Settler arrived to the target destination; 5 turns until pottery research is completed; Science slider 100%

T2. 2900 Utica is founded, started building temple immediately, sending worker to chop some wood towards Granary; Pottery in 3 tunrs; scroll science slider down to 70%

T3. 2850 Nothing is going on, keep exploring area

T4 2800 Nothing is going on, same as above

T5 2750 Pottery is researched; Carthage switches to granary in 9 turns. I decided to start researching writing at 100% in 31 turn but Carthage will grow. Super!!! Warrior entered hut and gave us a knowledge of Mysticism, now we can build oracle. Romans have nothing to trade. I have a feeling Romans are currently researching either iron working or wheel.

T6. 2710 Carthage grew in population; writing will be ready in 26 turns now. Granary to be ready in 5 turns

T7. 2670BC Nothing is going on, keep exploring

T8. 2630 - Worker finished chopping, Carthage finishes granary in 2 turns, Veii temple in 24

T9 2590 - Nothing is going on, keep exploring, sending worker to improve southern city

T10 2550 - Garthage reaches size 4, granary is built, switched to building a worker, hire a scientist to avoid revolt;

Writing will be ready in 18 turns, with Firaxis 85 points

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sgotm4smackster2550map.JPG

I suggest we build oracle (300shields) instead of Pyramids (400 shields) since they have the same cultural value, then we should build Great Lighthouse (hope to get a map making by that time) followed by great Library and Hopefully followed by Hanging gardens. Next player probably should switch temple to oracle in Utica :confused:

Link to save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Smackster_SG004_BC2550_01.SAV)

Good progress.

I would keep the temple build, to get the culture started earlier on Utica, then I think with the shields we'll produce it will be no problem building some of the AA wonders from there too. The earlier expansion will help that.

We should turn up the lux slider and sack that scientist. That will let us get the granary (edit) half full before the worker is built. Then keep Carthage at +5fpt at all costs. Then we can churn the settlers and workers.

Interesting map for a 5CC. Although I thought that I played GOTM28, I certainly have no memory of this map so far. I assume its because either it was modified, or my brain cells are dying quicker than I realised.

smackster

I'll give DH until tomorrow to appear. I have PM'd, and I note activity on his account today.

We really need a 5th player, because if its just us four we'll be finished by next weekend.

smackster

We should turn up the lux slider and sack that scientist. That will let us get the granary (edit) half full before the worker is built. Then keep Carthage at +5fpt at all costs. Then we can churn the settlers and workers.

Yes, I totally agree, use the lux slider not citizens to balance the cities. Keep Carthage going at +5fpt. At size 5 and 6 we will generate 10+ spt so churning out settlers/Workers etc will be a piece of cake... ;)

The GH was a bonus, I was beginning to think there were none on the island?

Go for RCP5 only and let the NW city location be decided when we unveil the fog there. It might be better at 1 tile SW of Dmankho's map.

So, Tarkeel is up and Smackster on deck, right?


EDIT: Just had a look at Dmanakho's map, the spice is not connected???? The lux there is needed for city management in Carthage!!! I was sure the forest you chopped was that forest, but no???? This will cost us some gold/happiness and score. Maybe a Worker need to be squeezed in at Carthage to make that happen. :( Also the Warrior wandering in the north should have made it back to Carthage, for MP purposes...
(EDIT2: this sound much harder than I meant it to be, you did good D. just not what I had expected... We need that spice connected ASAP)

From my report:
The Worker, after finishing the road move first to W and road it then on to the spice forest to connect/chop it.

Re. Worker actions: We should think really hard about not using worker actions in a tile we move out of since we as an industrious tribe have a comparatively high cost just to move into a tile. 2 turns to road a tile is so low cost we should always road a tile before moving out of it and the spice connect will benefit The 20K city too....

EDIT2: I opened the save and would suggest getting a Worker is first priority, to connect the spice... We will have it in two turns with +5fpt then keep working tiles around Carthage until it produce 10 spt at size 5 = 2 more BG's mined.

I didn't send worker to chop spice forest because it would take workers 2 turns just to get to that forest, there was an empty square between where worker was and the spice forest... and if i moved worker there it shields from forest would be wasted since he would finish chopping same turn granary is built. (those were my calculations anyway).

Utica must build the temple 1st then switch to oracle, otherwise it simply won't expand and we won't be able to use additional tiles in that city.
Agree on getting warrior (actually all 3 warriors) back for MP purposes.
I think fast temple finish in utica is more important than connecting spices, I'd rather send that new worker back south to mine and road the tile to connect Utica with Carthage and the worker who is currently working should join the city.. This will bring population of Utica to 3 and we should be able to pop rush temple... This is a controversial decision but I believe 20K victory is pretty much made in early ages by the team who manages to create very early culture. Only after that i would try to connect spices.

Another point on Utica growth.. I calculated, we can not have more than 8 productive citizens in that city in Despotism... Maximum growth would be 9 but that 9th citizen will have to be placed on bonus sea square therefore not producing any shields...

I had hard thoughts on whether to adjust a lux slider or hire a scientist.... I did the latter to keep research to max, thinking it was a wrongdoing on the back of my mind, but it's just for 2 turns until worker is built, next should be 2 warriors for MP in each city.

As for the 5th player... If DH can't make it I suggest we invite scoutsout to our team... He is a strong player, has a good sense of humor. If MB allows us to do so that is.

scoutsout can join your team whether or not DH can play. It is OK to run a 6 man team. :)

If he wants to join, let me know and I will add him to the roster, which will allow him to upload and download saves.

I got it and will try to h ave it done asap. Just hope the PTW on this PC is working properly, been ages since I tried it :)

I'd rather send that new worker back south to mine and road the tile to connect Utica with Carthage and the worker who is currently working should join the city.. .

First connect spice, that will give us soo much happiness... Then connect Utica.


thinking it was a wrongdoing on the back of my mind, but it's just for 2 turns until worker is built, next should be 2 warriors for MP in each city..

Connecting spice is worth 2 MP's in each city...

And, please do not use scientists, not when we have a +5fpt city... :mad: Carthage will produce 10 spt at size 5 if 2 more BG's are mined. It will the be a four turn Warrior/Settler factory for a while (until we have our five cities) Speed in getting the five cities will be more important than getting a temple 5-10 turns early in Utica. We should not turn a blind eye to everything else just because we aim at 20K in Utica. It need support from a "fully" functional position...

I didn't send worker to chop spice forest because it would take workers 2 turns just to get to that forest, there was an empty square between where worker was and the spice forest... and if i moved worker there it shields from forest would be wasted since he would finish chopping same turn granary is built. (those were my calculations anyway).


My planning was based on connect/chop in that order, see my notes( and it would take him 4 turns to get there since he would have roaded the interve´ning tile). I know the chopping would have been wasted if done first, The connection would have been JIT for Carthage growth and the chopping for a Barracks. Lux are sooo important I just felt it was the top priority for the Worker.

(0) 2550 BC
Switch Carthage to 5fpt and use lux to compensate.

(2) 2470 BC
Carthage: Worker->Worker
Lux to 10% again
Send worker to hook up spices

(3) 2430 BC
Worker1: R

(4) 2390 BC
Carthage: Worker->Worker
Send new worker to help Utica.
Rome has Iron Working this turn. Mysticism and all our gold is only doubtful.

(6) 2310 BC
Carthage: Worker->Settler
Lux to 0%, Sci to 90

(8) 2230 BC
Lux to 10%

(9) 2190 BC
Lux to 0%

(10) 2150 BC
Carthage: Settler->Worker

Not sure where the settler should head, so it's not moved. We need to go claim that Ivory in the north.
Carthage should maybe be switched to grow, as it will have 10 shields by the time it hits size 5 now.
The Romans have founded Antium in our direction

Link (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Smackster_SG004_BC2150_01.SAV)

Firaxis: 101
Jason: 134

Can you post a map, as I wont be able to load the game until tonight.

smackster

Does the team agree to ask Scoutsout to join?

Was working on the map :) Here is a proposal for good production locations:

Red: 2 hills, 5 BG and 2 coast, rest normal grass. All over a powerhouse for production
Green: Will need a lot of irrigation to be max productive, and might be our first scrap city
Blue: 2 Cows, 3 hills, 2 BG and some coast.

We really need to learn where the resources are though.

Another thought is that with such a small island, we might need outposts on other islands later on.

I've tried to use a corruption calcualator, that blue space appears to have about 65% corruption in despot, 44% in Republic, 33% in Democracy. So not sure that it is worth it. Rank adds 10% in despot, distance is the killer.

You know we could probably wack Antium. Two warriors in range, only warrior defence (probably one one there). Bit of a risk however, would give us two workers and set Rome back.

@Tarkeel, well played.

Ivory links by a Worker roading to it and then turn itself into a colony with guards vs. Barbs? Any other ideas as to how we get the Ivory?

Now we need to get Carthage to size 5 to actiavte Settler factory for a while.

City placements? Is the plan dispersed cities in good loactions like the "green" location in My original and Tarkeels map or the placements in my RCP5 map with four cities around Carthage pumping out units until we need to place cities elsewhere?

@Team: please feel free to invite Scoutsout.

@Smackster, I would like us to use Rome to harvest a few techs, either from trade or from warfare. I trust you will do the "right thing" ;)

Wotan: we have 6 production at size 3, so it works as a size 3-5 settler factory ;) have already run out one.

Also note that there must be a barb camp in the mountains.

I don't mind having Scout onboard :) Never played with him, but seems like a good (and just as importantly, nice) player.

The only city location I feel strongly for, is the red one.

I like the city locations in Wotan's original map.

If I see an opportunity I will pay Antium a visit.

Wotan: we have 6 production at size 3, so it works as a size 3-5 settler factory ;) have already run out one..
But I guess you agree a Size5-6 Settler factory will build Warrior+Settler every 4 turns... Use the Size 3-5 as a Barracks build + chop the spice wood for the last 10 shields. (My original plan before Dmanakhos turns...) After that it will be running at optimum speed efficiency.


The only city location I feel strongly for, is the red one.
What about the four RCP5 cities in my map and in Dmanakhos map?

BTW, "I have it", playing tonight

Scout can play, but not for a few days, so I suggest we just keep this moving. Hopefully we can fit him in at the end next time round, which will probably be on Thursday at this rate :)

Scout can play, but not for a few days, so I suggest we just keep this moving. Hopefully we can fit him in at the end next time round, which will probably be on Thursday at this rate :)


Have you heard back from DH????
He never was talkative before but not keeps absolute silence

Not a word, so I assume he does not want to join.

OK, so I take it after you then, Smackster? And we pu Scout into DH position beginning next "round".

OK, so I take it after you then, Smackster? And we pu Scout into DH position beginning next "round".
Yes, which means that I had better watch my MM tonight, lest I bear the rath of Wotan :)

I'm in guys. I cannot actually play yet, but my replacement civ 3 cd (found it somewhere for 6 bucks online) is on the way and I will be back online as soon as I can. I'll be somewhat out of practice and I will have a somewhat irregular schedule now that I'm in college, but I will also have more free time overall, I think.

Well good to see you, but I hope that Civ 3 cd is PTW?

We'll play with 6 and fit you and Scoutsout in when you can. Just let me know when you can play again. Of course we'll post maps so you'll be able to follow along without the game. A lot less MM in a 5CC methinks.

smackster

I'm in guys. I cannot actually play yet, but my replacement civ 3 cd (found it somewhere for 6 bucks online) is on the way and I will be back online as soon as I can. I'll be somewhat out of practice and I will have a somewhat irregular schedule now that I'm in college, but I will also have more free time overall, I think.

@DeceasedHorse: Welcome back!!!! good luck in college freshman :)
@Team: Do you guys really think he will have more free time??? :hmm:
I highly doubt so.... girls, parties... etc... etc... :lol: :lol:

@Scoutsout: Welcome to the team. I hope you will enjoy it here :cool:

Smackster: Actually a lot more MM in 5CC, as now you can take the time to do it every round ;)

Horse: Welcome back to the land of the damned :)

Smackster/wotan: Maybe time we published a formal roster? I for sure have lost track already :p

As usual, we are already far ahead in turns played.. And 2 teams have already shown they can't count ;) Staff, Offa and Tao seems to have settled in place as well it seems.

Yes I'll keep the Roster going, certainly with DH and Scout we'll need it. For the four of us its easy, I think. Wotan is next.

Here it is if our new guys join

Smackster (Playing right now, Antium is smoking)
Wotan (on Deck)
Dmanakho
Tarkeel
ScoutsOut (need confirmation to play)
DH (need confirmation to play)

My conquests CD is fully intact, so I should have no problems <<Famous Last Words>>

I really need to learn to be more careful with my game cd's. I just bought the Call of Duty expansion pack only to discover that my copy of the original has a damaged disk.

T0 2150BC
As discussed I plan to pay a visit to Antium, well I'll see what it looks like when I get there. I note barb next to it and the warrior is regular. Have to move our warrior out to declare war so that will take two turns, so we'll see.

In case we get war will move that settler NE to that site away from Rome. May have to get a warrior out of Carthage, which would allow us to grow it a bit more to get it in line for warrior / settler combo.

I chose the red Tarkeel location and not Wotan original location. Why well there is an extra hill in it and that is all, both on the coast.

IBT Rome ask us to leave, which is good as I can declare war this turn, Barb attacks them and promotes their warrior to vet.

T1 2110BC

Second warrior still has to move, so will wait until next to decide on war. Now Antium with a warrior, will be building a spearman, so it will be ages before they get it, size one so they can't pop it, Monarch level so they wont have to many spare troops. It will take them about 10 turns from Rome, so I like the odds for a quick war.

Spare worker moves to join Utica. We have 3 other workers, and most of the land worked. That will actually give Utica the temple a turn earlier, and I can push a warrior out of there if the war goes badly

IBT
A barb appears from the north.

T2 2070BC
My first mistake of the game works out for us, as I toyed with switching the worker in Carthage to a warrior to help the war, then decided to keep the worker, then didn't realise that the game is not reading my notes, and didn't actually change it back from a warrior (which I'd switched it too as I was toying). But with the barb to the north, quite near our settler, I'm glad for it now.

Join the worker to Utica, which is now size 4 and gets the temple in 3.

Declare war on Rome, and move the warriors in. See a Roman warrior and archer to the south, but they don't have time to get to us before we attack. They also would take 9 turns to get to Utica, which is enough time for us to get to peace with them, so its little risk.

Hold the settler for a turn as the barb could get to it if not.

Carthage to push a settler in 4. Its size 4 now, but we need to work the land a bit more to get the combo. So wont wait.

Lux to 10%

IBT
Barb attacks our warrior on hill, and we win without loss. But another barb appears nearby, messing up my settler plan. Is this raging barbs?

T3 2030BC

So our brave troops start the siege of Antium. Our first warrior, hurts them badly reducing the warrior to 2/4, but is sacrificed to the cause. The second warrior goes in, likes the odds, kills the defender for no loss and Antium is razed. No workers, but then I think that only comes if you chose to raze on capture. Not on auto-raze. Anyway, that is enough for me to mess up Rome and eventually they should give us peace for something. I believe we'll get peace before their warrior/archer could get to us.

IBT
Barb moves towards our luxury, I'll have to attack them
Roman pair moves up, I think they might go for the barb hut on moutain first, I think

T4 1990BC

Interesting opportunity that I notice. Carthage is size 5, and can produce a barracks in 2 turns (on growth), I don't want to miss that, and take the barracks. This sets us up for a warrior/settler/worker combo.

IBT
Romans come one more step our way, but still 6 turns from Utica, and they may go to the barbs

T5 1950BC

Utica Temple->Collossus (or whatever we can get)
Warrior moves to mountain to watch Romans.
To the north warrior moves to find the barb hut.
We settle Leptis Magna to the NE
Worker is working on roading to Leptis, seemed like getting that roaded would be good, as Leptis get a warrior in 5, as I'm still a little nervous of Rome.

Collossus in 40. Now I'm not sure if I should have just built more workers at Carthage to grow Utica quicker. I don't have a good feel for 20k 5CC, neither of which I've really played before. So the barracks is coming next turn, like it or not.

IBT
Rome move north, now next to the barb hut

T6 1910BC
We fortify our warrior on the mountain to tempt Rome to attack it there.
Now I'm getting nervous, I can see it now in the CivFanatics times, smackster early war blows SGOTM4 for Team smackter, captain resigns in disgrace. So I take the northern warrior and put him in place to come back down south. Utica will be able to push out an archer in one soon. Carthage completes its barracks and gets a settler in 3 with growth to set it up at size 5 now, for us to manipulate.

The sweat begins to furrow on my brow, is the pressure of the SG too much to bear. What will Wotan say.

But no, what is this, Rome will talk. I wonder what they will give. Iron Working and 4 gold, we'll take that thank you. Don't even have to think about that one.

Now where is the iron. No suprise, right next to rome on a hill. Certainly we should pay that a visit in 20 turns time.

Writing comes in and we start on MM, but 23 turns with 20% lux.

IBT
Rome lose a warrior attacking the barb camp, but the archer gets it

T7 1870BC
For once a quiet turn

T8 1830BC
Rome have the iron hooked up, gulp

T9 1790BC
Rome Settler->Warrior, now its lined up to do warrior/worker/warrior/worker. We do have to produce one more settler, but you get the idea.

Utica borders expand

T10 1750BC
Barb comes from SW.
Carthage warrior->worker

I'm going to leave a few moves open, as I think it will help Wotan to see a couple of things.
1) Warrior to the north is about to attack barb hut, but if he dies then Leptis is a bit exposed, however its only one sheild over a warrior, so could switch barracks to warrior for protection, I want you to make that attack to its clear
2) Settler could move, but will go into shroud, so would prefer to wait one turn, and there is an active warrior from carthage for protection
3) To the SW there is a worker active, not sure maybe join to Utica, or probably work one of Utica's squares, its grows in 2 anyway and will be size 5 with 5 improved squares. There is a warrior below the worker, active, that can move to stave off the barb.

Note Rome have founded Cumae where Antium was.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/1750_copy.jpg

My conquests CD is fully intact, so I should have no problems <<Famous Last Words>>

I really need to learn to be more careful with my game cd's. I just bought the Call of Duty expansion pack only to discover that my copy of the original has a damaged disk.
Been through that myself and lost both PTW and Conquests disks. Had to buy Conquests again. Guess I could have made a backup.

So I assume that means you are in now. At the rate we are playing you will have it on Thursday.

Great set of turns!!!!

Good job on getting free Iron working from romans, I wouldn't have guts to do it if i was playing this game on my own... :goodjob:

There is only a one single thing i would change - Build oracle instead of Collosus. Although Collosus is cheaper to build it has less cultural points... Having oracle doubling temple effect in Utica will also help with happiness. And we are likely to be stuck with 2 luxuries until navigation.


EDIT: well, i looked at the best Jason dates again...
to reiterate:

Diplomatic 1010AD
Cultural 20k 1760AD

There are 153 turns between those 2 dates...
So if we build UN we have a look at Utica and make a scientific guess, if it takes less than 153 turns to get 20K in Utica 20K would be the way to go...
:confused:
Do I interpret Jason theory of relativity correctly????? :confused:
Please correct me if i am wrong NOW, otherwise we will again be under wrong impression as we were in the past game.

Yes Oracle for sure. I wasn't aware of the cultural difference but just looked it up. Collossus comes in much quicker, but that extra culture for oracle will make a difference. Temple doubling a bonus too.

I think you are right on the turn differences. I'm sure in this 5CC that 20k is the right way to go. Of course we will need to farm some leaders however.

Great set of turns!!! Wotan is happy, so everyone is happy, right?? ;)

I'm beginning to feel like something to scare children with... If you don't behave properly, Wotan will come for you... :)

I decided to take an hour off this morning and do my turns.

First a map with some pointers (discussed below):
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/smackster1500BC.JPG
Turn log

0 – 1750BC
Warrior perish when attacking Barb.Camp. Change Carthage to Settler to get the final settler needed on the map.

1 – 1725BC
Nothing

2 - 1700BC
Theveste founded, Numidian Mercenary (Galley pre build) started.

3 – 1675BC
Carthage builds Settler, Warrior started.

IBT: Roman Archer kill Barb. Barb attack our Warrior in S, Warrior survives.

4 – 1650BC
Barb.Camp dispersed. Carthage builds Warrior, Archer started. Carthage now setup as a (Archer/Worker/Worker) factory. After Archer is built C is at S6 5f, 1st Worker brings it to S6 0f, second Worker to S5 5f, then another Archer to repeat the process. With Roman Legions and no Iron I guess we have to go Archers/Catapults?

5 – 1625BC
Nothing

6 - 1600BC
Carthage builds Archer, Worker started.

IBT: Warrior attacked by Barb, Warrior survives.

7 – 1575BC
Carthage builds Worker, Worker started. Hippo founded, Barracks started. Sold Writing to Rome for 69 gold.

8 – 1550BC
Carthage builds Worker, Archer started.

9 – 1525BC
Barb.Camp dispersed.

10 – 1500BC
Carthage builds Archer, Worker started. Leptis Magna builds Barracks, Archer started.

After action report:

The two Warriors in the north should stay where they are, so no Barbarians appear near our future Ivory colony. I have started a Worker in that direction from Leptis Magna, keep roading until Ivory and form a colony there.

Theveste is building a Galley (Numidian Mercenary now), switch to Galley when MM is researched.

MM is ready in 3 turns. Next tech could be Literature, or we could go Maths to get Catapults. We will probably need them if we are to take on Rome wo Iron supplies. This clearly needs to be discussed/decided before Dman takes his turns. Colossus ready in 13 turns, with literature we could squeeze in the library before going for GL. I guess my vote would be Literature...

Only one Barb.Camp prone tile left near us. “Land’s End” in the NE. Do we want to keep it that way and harvest any Barbs that do appear there, at least until just before Era change.

Carthage is in the middle of the Archer/Worker/Worker factory. Two Workers up next. It does need MMing every time it is about to grow, to set it to 8 shields for the extra two gained from the growth. Maybe we should keep it going with Workers until we have tilled all the lands and boosted the satellite cities to size5-6? It grows in 2 turns so the cost is lower than waiting for the small cities to grow on their own.

Next Worker maybe go north to build road for our “Barb. Factory”? After road is finished, continue to develop Leptis Magna lands. And not a Warrior, but an Archer on Barb.Watch.

Firaxis: 154

Nice work, both of you :)

I've started keeping track of culture buildings on the first page, will be helpful later on when trying to figure out victory date. Please report all culture builds in Utica, and all anarchy periods :)

Edit: We've played 5 turnsets, while no other team has played 1.. 4 has yet to start. Maybe we should slow down a bit ;) And don't give the other teams too much info from our graph :p

@Dmanakho: My wishlist for my next turns: A galley or two to explore, and a stack of archers near Rome. I want to burn their iron before they can pump too many swordpikes (legs).

@Dmanakho: My wishlist for my next turns: A galley or two to explore, and a stack of archers near Rome. I want to burn their iron before they can pump too many swordpikes (legs).

Galley prebuild in Teveste, to switch after MM. The Archers... I guess it will be Smackster who again attack the Romans, 10 turns seem a bit too few to have a stack of Archers outside Rome in.

Edit: Had a quick look at the current scores: Offa, Tao and Staff seem to have settled in place. 69 pts = 5 more than we have indicate that. The other teams have either moved one tile or in one case (50 pts) more than one tile...

Great turns Wotan and Smacskter!!!

I suggest we research Math 1st and start building catapults in addition to archers to attack Rome....
Once Oracle is finished We might try to squeese Lighthouse before Great Library. Lighthouse is not expensive and we should be able to build it in 20+ turns.
How big is population of Utica right now????
As i stated before I don't believe it can't grow beyond 8 shield producing citizens but we should bring it to that number as soon as we can.

@Tarkell. I will build up force for you, but not sure if there wil be enough time to send them down south during my turns... How many archers/catapults we need for succeful invasion?

EDIT: I understand everyone wants to postpone 'certified' GA.... so shall we never build our UU and use archers for defense as well as offence?

I'm not so worried about the pace of the game, and giving other teams an advantage. I doubt in this case they will be able to work out our victory condition anyway. As long as the next person who playing is clear what they should do then they should play their turns as soon as they are ready.

Personally I really enjoy the pace we take on this game, and it really keeps us involved. I think that is a benifit, it certainly does not get boring.

smackster

I looked at the map. Seems that the attack on Rome will have to go through a lot of their land to get to the iron. By the time we are there, they are sure to have settled that site west of Cumae. Ideally I want a galley from the east as that can dump troops within one space of the iron. This is a rare case where I would want to build a spearman, but can't as we don't want to kick of the GA. So we'll have to do that with 2 warriors. Can we get a galley built for that attack.

The method of attack would involve declaring war and moving our main troops in from the north. I would then give the Romans maybe 2 full turns, before dropping the troops off for the iron. I would assume that on the turn we attack they will have spare troops around Rome. So that if we drop our warriors off first turn, the spare will be there to protect the iron. With a 2 turn gap there is a better chance that our warriors will survive on their iron for a turn, and then we can cut it.

Cutting the iron seems to be key in this case, otherwise we'll face Legions in a Roman GA.

Utica is currently at size 7, I added two workers to it to expand it to 7. Two reasons for this, first to gain a second shield in the city core, second to save the food from emptying out from the foodbox when it goes from size 6 - 7. If you did not know this, the food is retained on size 7 if you grow by use of a worker merging with the city. This also applies when going from 12 to 13.

I would have the worker roading the tile NNW Utica move to the hills SW of it and mine /road it before moving on to road through the mountains S of Utica, to allow us to move Catapults towards te Romans. The next Worker from Carthage go N to build road at "barb.factory" (remember to post an Archer there for sentry duty) and the second Worker first due S from Carthage , build road and then move to merge with Utica. Or maybe the other way around, first to Utica then N. We need the tile just S of Carthage roaded so a unit moving between C and U can do it in Two turns. There are two Rivers to traverse and a road there saves 1 turn.

With a Harbour in Utica the "pearls" will generate 3 food, that would allow Utica to be size 10 and work a third hills.

I have made some calculations and I would go Literature-Maths. They will take about 10 turns each to research and I guess 20 turns is too long to wait for Literature if we want to squeeze a Library between The Colussus and the Lighthouse.

The Galley will be ready in about 6 turns time. I suggest we build/plan for war on Rome to begin during Smacksters turns (sorry Tarkeel). Build the two Warriors we need after the two Workers in Carthage. I would like at least one (maybe 2) more volley of Archer/Worker/Worker before allowing Carthage to grow beyond 6.

Edit: Just noticed the "east" in Smacksters plan, the current Galley prebuild is on the West coast but Leptis Magna can switch to a Galley and sail down the east coast.

I agree with Smackster, the pace is good for the game.

I concur with Wotan's plan and i will try to read CAREFULLY his notes again before i play ;)


I have made some calculations and I would go Literature-Maths. They will take about 10 turns each to research and I guess 20 turns is too long to wait for Literature if we want to squeeze a Library between The Colussus and the Lighthouse.


@Wotan: Did you mean "The Colussus" or "The Oracle"????? I'd prefer Oracle but I don't want to change the build and then make you mad :mischief:


We will need bunch of archers to destroy Rome, by the time we start the war Rome will have legions and there is nothing we can do about it... We will also guaranteed to loose a battle (and more than one) to legions so Rome will be in GA... I'd like to have at least 3 archers agains each Roman legion to make sure we are not affected by RNG, but we can only guess how many legions Romans will have...

Another difficulty in waging that war is a long time sending fresh troops down south during the war, so we will have to have enough from the beginning.


EDIT: @Team: Do you think it is a good idea to rush library in Utica by building archers in Garthage and killing them in Utica for some shields????

Utica is currently at size 7, I added two workers to it to expand it to 7. Two reasons for this, first to gain a second shield in the city core, second to save the food from emptying out from the foodbox when it goes from size 6 - 7. If you did not know this, the food is retained on size 7 if you grow by use of a worker merging with the city. This also applies when going from 12 to 13.
I didn't not know that, its a good tip.

Also we need to build the Oracle, so switch it from Collossus. 4 culture points vs 3 I think.

EDIT: @Team: Do you think it is a good idea to rush library in Utica by building archers in Garthage and killing them in Utica for some shields????
I think there is merit to that plan, pop rush the library, and replace the pop with workers the same turn.

OK who knows how many shields you get for a pop rush?

I think there is merit to that plan, pop rush the library, and replace the pop with workers the same turn.

OK who knows how many shields you get for a pop rush?

Pop rush will cause unhappines and will most likely require us to use lux slider, while rushing archers is free of side-effects

@Wotan: Did you mean "The Colussus" or "The Oracle"????? I'd prefer Oracle but I don't want to change the build and then make you mad :mischief:
I have not considered the choice of Wonder. Colussus cost 200 shields, the Oracle 300, right? We are building the Colussus now and it will be ready in 13 turns, the Oracle in another 10 turns. Team, any opinion?

Agree with Dman, no pop rush, maybe Archer rush but I believe Utica will be able to build the Library in 6 turns when it is time for it with a single Archer sacrificed(5shields, right?). We have the food box about half full so we can put a 9th citizen into Utica and move it between the 3rd hill and the pearls as we need to and still avoid starving the city dry.

And, switch to Oracle, I agree on the benefits.

Oracle is more attractive choice with 1 extra cultural point and it doubles temple effect.... I think it will save us more money on luxury slider than extra commerce from Colossus and in a long run we will get more cultural points with Oracle.

We have the food box about half full so we can put a 9th citizen into Utica and move it between the 3rd hill and the pearls as we need to and still avoid starving the city dry.


Reiterate this again, please. I'd like to clearly understand your plan.
In my calculation it doesn't make sense to bring Utica above 8 in Despotism...
That was the max number of tiles citizen can work and city will stop growing at 8. 9th citizen would be placed on Pearls with 2 foods and no additional shields.... But then that will make use to increaze a lux slider, just because of that single city (I thought that was what i came up with).
My idea was to get city to size 8 and keep it there until we revolt, then irrigate grass land and put citizens on the the remaining hill and mountain squares.

Reiterate this again, please. I'd like to clearly understand your plan.
In my calculation it doesn't make sense to bring Utica above 8 in Despotism...
That was the max number of tiles citizen can work and city will stop growing at 8. 9th citizen would be placed on Pearls with 2 foods and no additional shields.... But then that will make use to increaze a lux slider, just because of that single city (I thought that was what i came up with).
My idea was to get city to size 8 and keep it there until we revolt, then irrigate grass land and put citizens on the the remaining hill and mountain squares.

The Ivory will be connected by a Colony on the last turn you play, Dman. That will give another happy face everywhere. At size 9 Utica can either have a citizen on the pearls for a balance in food consumption, or placed on the coastal hills for two shields (if mined/roaded) but with a 1 food deficit. Since Utica is on IIRC 17 food now we can let it use the hills for 17 turns wo starving it dry.

5CC really takes us to the limits of micromanagement possibilities, doesn't it... ;)

5CC really takes us to the limits of micromanagement possibilities, doesn't it... ;)

I am scared of that fact already :twitch:

What do we do if hypothetically Romans or someone else try to settle on Ivory coast.
Will we declare a war immediately?

I am scared of that fact already :twitch:

What do we do if hypothetically Romans or someone else try to settle on Ivory coast.
Will we declare a war immediately?
But with so few cities to MM it is not really a chore, actually I think its quite fun. I hate doing MM for so many cities when there is so little to change.

We should have at least one spare warrior/worker combo near the ivory at all times. Rome do not have Map Making yet, but when they do and a galley comes by, we should just stop them from landing with our troops. We may need to road all the squares up there, so that we can move around more.

I am going to play my turns tonight, i will be checking the forum periodically until that if someone comes up with some important ideas.

T1 1475 BC Carthage Worker->Worker; worker is sent to road a hill near Utica. Another works towards ivory; Science slider down to 60%; MM in 2 turns

T2 1450 BC Carthage Worker->Archer; worker is sent up north to road barbarian hunting area.

T3 1425 BC MM is discovered and I am switching to Math, I think it is a right decision at this time. (and i really really afraid to piss of Wotan again :eek: ). Oracle will be built in 24 turns and literature ready in 13... There is no way we squeeze library in and between and I don't want to research literature sooner than we can start building GL, it will just make technology cheaper for AIs to research... Plus, if we want to fight Romans soon we will need catapults sooner than later.
Theveste and Leptis Magna have switched production to galleys. Romans demanded 24 gold, I gave them money; don’t think we can manage another war at the present time.

T4 1400 BC Carthage Archer->Worker; Moved Lux slider to 10%

T5 1375 BC Carthage Worker->Worker

T6 1350BC Carthage Worker-Archer; Theveste Galley->Barracks

T7 1325BC Leptis Magna Galley->Archer, Romans have established embassy in Carthage, Roman archer lost a battle to Barbarian warrior. Good!

T8 1300BC Vikings built The Colossus :-(; Hill near Utica is mined and roaded; Worker joins Utica population grows to 8. Worker is sent to road and mine last hill near Utica; Oracle is ready in 13 turns; mathematics in 4; Archer kills barbarian near Utica; Carthage Archer->Worker

T9 1275BC Carthage Worker->Worker

T10 1250BC Carthage Worker->Archer. I have left worker in town, Tarkeel will decide where he wants it to send. Ivory colony is established!!! More happy faces! Math in 2 turns.
Oracle in 11, just in time to finish Oracle and pre-build library a little bit and then rush it with archer when literature is researched....
That is if we want to research it now... may be we should research something else instead like code of laws and switch from Oracle to Lighthouse...

IMPORTANT!!!

We have to decide which wonder we want to build next after Oracle, if it is a lighthouse then we probably want to postpone researching literature, let’s not make it a cheap technology for AIs to get. If we decide to build Great Library right away since it will give us 6 cultural points then we should definitely go ahead and research literature… I actually doubt we are going to be able to build Great lighthouse, since once Oracle is completed AIs will do wonder cascading and have a very good chances to get ahead of us…. Although again we can start building a lighthouse and if someone builds it in front of us we will simply switch to GL or Palace (if literature is not ready yet) at that point. there is a cost associated with each wonder... Lighthouse costs 300 shields and Great Library 400.

MAP:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sgotm4smackster1250map.JPG


Firaxis score: 194 Jason score: 257 (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Smackster_SG004_BC1250_01.SAV)

Checking in... @Smackster: Here's your delurk.

@Team: Smackter PM'd me, telling me you guys were short a pleyer here... I paged through the thread REAL fast to see that I don't know many of you ('cept DH, who I'm in with in Bede2...) I haven't really caught up on all my SG's yet (I hate hurricanes), but if you guys could wait until the weekend for me to catch up, I could join in if you guys want.

Am I insane, but won't the collossus trigger a golden age for us? I'm probably thinking of the English in PTW though.

Hi Scoutsout, welcome to the team, do not let them scare you with stories about the wrath of norsemen... ;)

@Dmanakho: Good turns! I am just disappointed you have not roaded the tile just S of Carthage but Tarkeel can do that with the Worker you have left in Carthage.

Next set of turns, actions to take: First of all MM carthage before hitting return, it only need 8 shields so we gain one beaker by moving a citizen, especially since it might be the right time to build two Warriors for Smacksters commando galley approaching on the east coast. Maybe build Warriors next two "factory" volleys since we will need MPs in LM and T soon.

Also MM Theveste to once of the BGs since both workers will finish mining this turn, we gain one food. As I stated earlier, we need to MM this game to the limit!!!!! Check for these possibilities each turn, we only have 5 cities so it is not much of a burden to do it right. No shields/food/beakers lost to sloppy MMing please.

Move worker in C. S and road that tile!!!! Shortens the travel time between C and U by 1 turn.

Add one more worker to Utica and use it to balance production (hills/pearls as needed)when the third hills is mined.

The Archer finishing at Leptis Magna, move to Mine near Barb.Factory and move back and forth on road to check for Barb.Camps on "Land's End" each turn.

DO NOT MOVE THE TWO WARRIORS NEAR IVORY COLONY AT ALL, EVER! We risk barbarians if we do!

Start roading mountains S of Utica to make it possible to move Catapults through them.

Literature next, (Math was OK Dman) ;)

Future plans: Start thinking about moving a city south when Rome falls. One tile SW of Rome is a nice spot especially when the city has reached 100 culture. Hippo is the obvious victim if we decide to shift locations.

@DH: We are industrial and commercial, and the only industrial wonders in the start are Pyramids and Great Wall (possibly Hanging Gardens, but don't think so).

As for what wonder next, we'll have to see what the oracle cascade takes.. But I think we should be able to get lighthouse in, the AI is usually sloppy in researching literature since it's optional.

BTW, I got the game, but won't play for many hours yet, so keep commenting.

Oh, I am gaining confidence in myself again, only one dissapointment from Wotan!!!!!

I have a brilliant idea, but i have to run right now, and idea is so good (well that's what i think at least) and shady at the same time, so by a virtue of me been paranoid i'd like to PM my plan to each of you instead of posting in the thread....
I am going to the seminar today, won't be back until late afternoon US eastern time.

@Wotan: Are you sure literature should be next the technology????? May be we should put something between Math and literature.....

again, let's decide on next wonder. I believe Oracle will be built during Tarkeel turns if he starts MMg with that 3rd hill.

@Tarkeel; AIs are sloppy in researching literature in conquest, in PTW they do it quite often... our last SGOTM and few other classic GOTMs i played showed it

Library @ 3 culture is too much to postpone longer than necessary...

Agreed get Literature and build Library next. After doing that we don't have to decide on our next wonder for some time, just get building one, clearly the Lighthouse would be nice for multiple reasons, but the culture of the Great Library is attractive. If available I would tend towards the lighthouse, as I'm sceptical that we would get the Great Library before the AI.

There is of course the chance that the AI will beat us to the Oracle, but hopefully not now.

I now put Scout and DH on the active list. It will be Scouts turn tonight, after Tarkeel, after myself, but its ok to play it at the weekend. I think a little break to think about the game will not harm us. After this I'll keep a strict 24/72 hour, I got it/skip. Note that team smackster has never had a 72 hour skip, you have been warned.

Roster

Wotan
Dmanakho (just played)
Tarkeel (got it)
smackster (will play tonight)
Scoutsout(on deck, weekend duty)
DH(hopefully has fully working PTW)

Are you sure you can build the FP as soon as you have enough cities, and not the next turn? How many cities do we need on this map for the FP.

Won't make it today I'm afraid :( can do a swap if you want smackster

Edit: BTW, does anyone know if PTW swaps you away from forbidden palace if your number of cities drops below the required # for building it? If not, settle enough cities in one turn, start FP for some free culture.. Not sure many teams will think of doing that.

Are you sure you can build the FP as soon as you have enough cities, and not the next turn? How many cities do we need on this map for the FP.

Yes YOU CAN!!!! I tested it personally, you need 8 cities, we need to build only 3 more settlers.... everything as i said previously
IT WORKS!!!!!!!!! :cool:

...Not sure many teams will think of doing that.


That is why i was paranoid, now most of them will know in matter of days :)
(oh those lurkers)

EDIT: @Mad-Bax: Could you pretend you didn't see previous 3 posts and those that will follow.... If Staff team implements the same idea we would know who it came from :mischief:

MORE EDITS: @More at Mad-Bax: Just wanted to ask you if you had a chance to put scoutsout in our team roster, he will play this weekend. Thank you! :hatsoff:

No rush Tarkeel, just play it when you can.

Yes YOU CAN!!!! I tested it personally, you need 8 cities, we need to build only 3 more settlers.... everything as i said previously
IT WORKS!!!!!!!!! :cool:
Very engenious plan, as my grandmother used to say "you are not just a silly face after all" :)

We could build it in Utica, when there is a gap in wonders, or a cascade that leaves us without (have to get the settlers waiting in place). I wonder how quickly Utica would build it. Usually FP time is based on number of cities, so with only 5, may be very quick.

Generally I wait for a leader to get the FP and put it in a totally corrupt location to start another core. But in games where I don't seem to have a chance for a leader, I start it in a core city, and then when I do get my leader, move the palace so that I have two regular cores.

That's not an exploit as I move the palace to a place that has another core of cities, and not far away from any others.

But in this game, if we say rushed the palace in the Rome area, then we would exploit the corruption bug. However, I would want to do it this way if the bug did not exist, so its annoying not to be able to use a legit tactic because of a bug.

Certainly need MBs advice on this one.

Are you sure this has not been done in 5CC games before?

smackster

We could build it in Utica, when there is a gap in wonders, or a cascade that leaves us without (have to get the settlers waiting in place). I wonder how quickly Utica would build it. Usually FP time is based on number of cities, so with only 5, may be very quick.


This is not true. YOu mix FP with a regular palace.. FP always costs 200shields and will be build in Utica in less than 20 turns...

I'd suggest we build it as soon as possible... Benefits of FP is hard to underestimate. Plus, adding 9th citizen on hill in Utica adds corruption and doesn't add new shields, so that citizen is practically wasted, adding FP will decrease corruption to virtually nothing, hence allowing to build all subsequent wonders faster. I would suggest the following radical order: after oracle complete build library in Utica then GL (I bet you we won't be able to build Lighthouse, although always worth to try) then FP ASAP, then it should be turn for Hanging Hardens or Colliseum.


But in this game, if we say rushed the palace in the Rome area, then we would exploit the corruption bug. However, I would want to do it this way if the bug did not exist, so its annoying not to be able to use a legit tactic because of a bug.


I am sure our Chief Strategist Wotan will have something to say on that.


Certainly need MBs advice on this one.

I think so too


Are you sure this has not been done in 5CC games before?


I have no idea, i am just a newbie, well relative newbie anyways.

D-man: Did you test disbanding the 3 support cities and growing the FP city? did it change?

D-man: Did you test disbanding the 3 support cities and growing the FP city? did it change?

I tested it all the way through... Building 3 support cities, start building FP, disbanding support cities, clicking next turn, waiting all the turns until FP is built and been pleasantly suprprised at the end see FP built with virtually no corruption in that city in my test game.

I encourage everybody to test it too, just to make sure... :)

This is not true. YOu mix FP with a regular palace.. FP always costs 200shields and will be build in Utica in less than 20 turns...

Must be the palace pre-build that is based on number of cities. I had the unfortunate experience of having a palace pre-build going for a wonder, and getting sneaked attacked and finding the palace completing earlier than expected because of the loss of cities.

Must be the palace pre-build that is based on number of cities. I had the unfortunate experience of having a palace pre-build going for a wonder, and getting sneaked attacked and finding the palace completing earlier than expected because of the loss of cities.

Yep, that can happen...

@Tarkeel: Please build up some military force.

@Smackster: You really ought to start skirmish Romans for leader hunting and even if we send Romans into the GA, its better if it is a despotic GA.

May be we can use one of the old techniques on leader farming, something like fortifying troops on top of the mountains and leaving unprotected worker in southern valley as a bait... :evil: Wotan is good at doing just that.

DH and Scoutsout will play after Smackster, I hope they are checking the thread and will follow the flow of the game.

After we take out Rome, I don't mind leader farming. But archers against legions is not a good situation for doing that, we have to clear the iron first. If we can't clear it on the first attack, then we may well be the ones forced into a despotic GA, as we will have to build some defence.

I am watching, still waiting on my copy of the game though.

Plus, adding 9th citizen on hill in Utica adds corruption and doesn't add new shields, so that citizen is practically wasted.

Not true! Two shields and two beakers/gold, max one goes to corruption so minimum 1 shield and 1 beaker/gold gained.

FP, is a great idea. I agree it should go in just after GL. We might be able to time it so we do not actually waste all three Settlers... If we are to resettle one city to the Iron/Wool in Roman lands, only two are actually destroyed wo any benefit but FP.

Roman war. We need plenty of Catapults if we are to successfully leader farm. With only Archer the chance of survival depends on the enemy being low on HPs. We might be able to use "mutton valley" to our advantage, there are a few grassland in it we could turn into killing fields. But maybe the fight will be brought to Roman lands and then it is not feasible.

@DH, so we might skip you again? If you have not recieved your new Civ disc before the weekend?

Don't rely on Cats doing any damage to Rome (the city that is). However, I do like cats in the open, as a way to weaken legions as they come to us.

Consider, when we attack their city our troops are all defence 1 (no spearmen, and we don't want a GA yet). So using cats for city bombardment will be doubly useless as the legions that they have will attack our weak defenders.

Everything seems to rest on that iron mission. Where is the SAS when you need them.

smackster

edit : its 2.00am so I'm going to bed

In reply to a PM by smackster:

Scoutsout has been added to your roster.

The remote palace rule for GOTM applies, in the sense that there is no need to specifically lift it for this game.

The rule says: "You must not rebuild the palace in a location remote from the majority of your empire in order to gain a significant corruption advantage"

Therefore, so long as you can justify the move in another way you are not in violation of the rule. :)

Catapults are the key to success against Rome, so Tarkeel please build some.
I start thinking that we won't have enough troops for the Smackster to start this war, so it might be DH or Scout who will have to do it.
We may want to battle roman legions with archers and catapults in the valley's grasslands and disconnect the iron while we do that and then when Rome has no spare troops left try to attack the city.

I am also worried about Ivory coast, Romans will definetely have MapMaking soon, doesn't matter whether we trade it to them or now and they will try to settle on ivory.

Smackster suggested before to road that tundra and then we should probably place few units there to control shoreland.

I have a slight problem atm... After noticing I couldn't see the sheep, I went over and reinstalled GOTM 21-25 packs.. and it's still not there. Any ideas what's wrong?

Edit: Ok, now I got the sheep.. but all the others are completely messed.. and I swapped both of the resource files though.

Check with M-B. AFAIK PTW has everything in a scenario file. That is probably where you can find the problem.

Smackster, go ahead and take the game. I won't be able to play tonight, and still haven't sorted this mess out. Have a very busy weekend coming as well, so will take a skip instead of swap.

OK, you are skipped and I've got it.

smackster

You didn't need to reinstall all those PACKs for PTW there is a separate ZIP file Mad Bax provided with few new graphic files...

d-man: Got a link? I've looked all over (I think)...

SGOTM4 Setup for ALL PTW Players

Those people wishing to play SGOTM4 using the PTW software need to download >>THIS<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4-PTWb.zip) file. Unzip this file into your Civilization/Civ3PTW/Scenarios directory. If you do this correctly you should find a new SGOTM4 folder in your Scenarios directory. If you wish to mess around with the resources files, then there is a readme file in this new directory that tells you how. Otherwise, you can just go ahead and play the game with the set of resources graphics I have provided by default.



So this is the link: SGOTM4 PTW Download (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4-PTWb.zip)

I am here to kick ass and chew bubblegum, and I'm all out of gum!

I've looked but don't have time to play tonight, will do for sure tomorrow.

@DH: Welcome back and if i am correct your turn will be after Smacskter's :)

@DH: Good news! So you got the Civ disc in time for your turns. Thoughts on the gameplan?

@Scout: You have reported in but I would like to hear your comments on the gameplan so far and any possible contributions you have to it.

Future plans:

I would like to take this opportunity to start a discussion on actions "post Roman War". We have the full allotment of cities now. Three of the cities are dedicated unit builders. I would rank them in order of importance: 1. Theveste, 2. Leptis Magna and 3. Hippo.

Maybe we should add some culture to Theveste and play to keep it for the game. Hippo should be reduced to size one (take Workers/Settlers from it) and abandoned when we settle near Rome (with both Wool and Iron within "one cultural expansion") suggest site SW Rome. Leptis Magna to be abandoned when we find Horses/fourth lux.

@Wotan: Are you sure it is a good idea to abandon core cities and settle in far far away galaxies...
Those cities will be absolutely useless due to corruption other than beeing sources for resources.... But then you will have only one or 2 cities left in your core to build units and do all the research...

Please convince me, give me some numbers, at the moment i don't see how your plan is going to work.

Those remote cities will be productive only if we use palace jump exploit and argue it is legit in 5cc games.
In 5CC game we must not have cities with corruption higher than minimal, it will crumble our abilities to research and fast research we must have for both diplo and 20K victory.
I am not arguing against your plan, i just don't understand it.


And, what exactly do we do with Rome??? Do we want to eliminate them completely or leave them with a city or 2 as a pet project for leader hunting?

EDIT: I spoke with Scoutsout, he is still recovering after the hurricane and behind the schedule. he might or might not be able to play in next few days. There is another hurricane heading towards Florida with landfall expected later today. Hopefully this one won't be us bad as the previous three, but it still might prevent Scout from playing. :sad:

RE: Gameplan- I have never played a 5CC before but I have a few OCC 20k's under my belt, so this should be, if anything, even easier.

RE: Gameplan- I have never played a 5CC before but I have a few OCC 20k's under my belt, so this should be, if anything, even easier.

How about THE game plan to win Laurels? ;)

T0 1250BC
We need 119shields for the oracle, 12 per turn 10 turns, we are currently getting 11. Will join worker to Utica from hill, and put another worker on hill ASAP

Will send archers down to stop Rome from settling NW of Rome

Did the MM work as suggested.

Carthage starts building warriors

IBT Rome settler appears in the mountains not far form Utica, really wierd I have no idea why they came up so far. Maybe going for the sheep, move warrior/archer to block them off

T1 1225BC

Add the worker to Utica and that makes the difference, Oracle in 9

Move our galleys and find that we have differencial movement, actually see some sea out west, but will continue down south

Leptis archer->archer
Carthage warrior->warrior

T2 1200BC

Roman settler pair move west, we try to cut them off, but doesn't look like we can get there in time
Galley on the west continues to see promising sea, but moves towards Pompeii

Maths comes in and we start on Literature in 10, at -1 GPT

T3 1175BC

Galley sees coast, but pulls back one turn to see if he can get a better angle, then again there is no way he can get over in one in this map.

Notice that Rome are not gaining any gold, so sell maths for all their 66 gold

T4 1150BC

Galley moves into ocean from coast, and gets good distance, sees coast, can't quite get to it, and now sees strange dark cyan blue border or something like that, maybe its my laptop monitor, stays in sea

T5 1125BC
Still tracking the Roman settler pair and they reverse direction, I guess that is something to do with our warrior/archer pair

Galley survives and meets Persia, who have the Wheel, but are behind Myst, Maths, and MM and they have 88 gold. Decide not to trade until we meet at least one more, as they are so behind in tech I'm not worried about them, but if we sell them something they may sell it to their other contacts and we wont get the others gold

Both Theveste and Hippo complete barracks and we can now really start to churn archers. Worker joins Theveste

T6 1100BC
Roman settler makes another reverse turn

T7 1075BC
Our galley to the west, seas more coast away from Persia and finds an island but no more civs

T8 1050BC
We almost get the Roman settler surrounded, but its still touch and go, he's going back and forth

T9 1025BC
Persia research Myst, and their cash is not going up. Decide to trade for Wheel, sell them Maths for Wheel and 88 gold.
Our galley realises that the island is leading nowhere and will go back to Persia to skirt their territory

T10 1000BC
Oracle completes, switch to barracks for Library next turn when literature comes in

We have the Roman settler tied up now. We should work him over to the east mountian, so that we only need 5 troops to keep him there.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/1000BC3.jpg

Archer being build at Thevestre required for MP purposes
Warrior at Hippo the same.

General rule I continue to join spare workers into cities. Hippo and Thevestre have a bit of growing to do still.

Military says we have 11 archers, and I would like to see at least 20 before we think about attacking Rome. With three cities pumping them full time it should not take too long.
Also we have 8 workers, and that seems like a good number, any others I was joining to cities, although did not do much of that, as I used 2 workers in the settler block.

Persia come up with HBR, but we don't have horses so don't need it right now. I assume they traded for it with our Maths. That is why I held on for a few turns, but you can't hold on forever.
We are MM up over them

Rome has researched MM and have no cash still

Carthage is basically going worker/worker/archer. Keep it below size 6. Until all our cities are bigger this should continue.

However what I didn't do was to road through the sheep to speed our path to Rome. Our workers joined the settler hearding.

Roster

Wotan
Dmanakho
Tarkeel - skipped
smackster (just played)
Scoutsout(up)
DH(on deck)

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Smackster_SG004_BC1000_01.SAV

Scout, take you time playing this, and don't hesitate to stop and post questions if its not obvious what to do.

@Smackster: good turns! Nice to have found another tribe.

Re. Persia and the probable trade they have done. If they traded for HBR there is bound to be another tribe near them. We need to follow coastline to find it/them.

Utica: Next build should be Library followed by another GW. GL or Lighthouse? Lighthouse would make it possible to trade with persia or connect our own city on that island.

Minor MMing possible before hitting return: Move one of the citizens working Mined Grassland at Leptis Magns to forest to gain 7 spt for two turns to finish Archer in two.

Next tech: We have two other tribes discovered, maybe a third will be found near Persia. We might start to plan for trading opportunities when reseaching techs. If so should the next tech be Currency? It is most often not researched by the AI and thus often possible to barter with. Or Construction for Colloseum/Aqueducts?

@Dman (and everyone else): Re: Future of Hippo (and maybe Leptis Magna) We built them for unit training purposes (mainly), but with only 5 cities available and at least 2 placed at Distance1 from Palace the corruption at the last two cities will be bearable. I have checked a possible placement near "Rome" and the corruption there would be at about 30%. Persia have horses connected so there are horses in their area. If we could get a ship to move along the coastline we might find both horse and fur (they have it) at a place similar to the Iron/wool in Roman lands. Before deciding on definit placement of "Iron/Wool" city lets see if we can place an equidistant city at "Horse/Fur" to have the final two cities at equal corruption. If possible I would scrap Hippo and Leptis Magna in a heartbeat. We should also consider putting some Culture into Theveste to have it "grow". The score (for Green Laurel) will depend on getting as much land as possible within our borders.

EDIT: MMing before hitting return. I have found an even better solution to have Leptis Magna finish the Archer in two turns. First move the NE citizen working the BG mine to the forest with spice. Then switch to Leptis Magna, move the citizen working a mined grassland to the now vacant BG mine for 7 spt's. This will gain us one beaker and as a result you can lower research with 10% and lower the deficit from 8 to 5 gpt...

This cannot be said too many times but with 5 cities we need to keep MMing to "the limit", each and every shield/gold/beaker counts!!! Always check this in each city before hitting return, especially when a city is about to grow!!

Will Scout be able to play? Dmanakho, any news?

The problem scout has had recently is due to living in Florida and hurricanes, with another one approaching, he may be out of Civ again. We'll just give him until tonight to appear and if not skip to DH.

Forgot to build Catapults. I woke up thinking about them. How about an army goal number of 15 Archers, 6 Catapult? Thoughts?

smackster

Soundes reasonable, half a dozen Catapults should be enough.

Good turns Smackster....

But I'd probably say 20 archers and 6 catapults just to be on the save side...
and 20 archers not counting those MPs in towns.

I agree with Wotan on MM, we really have to do it in this game.
Good opportunity for me to learn also....

@Wotan, please don't get pissed of at me when i don't do something right, but rather explain ;) . I am learning.

We probably should start building Great Lighthouse, if AI builds it before us switch to Great Library then FP, if we get a leader then rush a wonder with most cultural points at the time.

@Dmanakho, not pissed, you will know if I ever get so annoyed... ;) We are all learning. On another topic, you seem to be in "direct" contact with Scout, any idea if he is capable to play his turns?

Before next player we need to decide on next tech to research. I made my thoughts know in my post above, please comment on them. Also, Library before next GW in Utica, please.

Yes lots of MMing done on my turns. But there is life outside of this SG, so at some point I'll end my turns and maybe have wasted a shield or lost a turn. We have to keep an even perspective on this, or the enjoyment will end.

I paged Scout when i did everybody else and here is what he said:

1) I pinched a neve in my neck doing some roof repair after Frances, and took a forced 2-week± haitus from Civ because I couldn't feel my right hand... (long story)

2) I am having a hard time catching up to some games I was in before joining Team Smackter

3) Smackster PM'd me, saying the team needed a new player... I thought I wrote 'give me a few days to think about it'... but Smackster took it as 'give me a few days to get into it'.... but I signed on anyway because Smackster is a Strong Player, and I'm hoping to learn a bit from him....

.... Sooo... please don't be offended if I don't immediately offer comment on your proposed strat. It's going to be a couple of days or so before I can pull my weight on the team. Just give me a bit of time...


I assume he won't play his turn and DH should go ahead and play his turns after discussion on what to do


Here are my thoughts on strategy....
I am still not convinced it's a good idea to have a city with 30% corruption.
I'd rather suggest we ged rid of Rome and establish colonies in southern part of the island. Then we road all shorelines and keep our island from inviders, declaring wars if we need... (we need those wars for leader hunting anyways). It is nice to have horses but we can always buy them, we will have extra luxuries for trading purposes...
We are not doing conquest so not having horses is really not a big deal, i played test 5CC games and it was just fine not having horses...
Resourses like Rubber, Coal and Alluminum will be much more important as the time goes by and if we ever decide to jump cities I'd rather do it much later...
So if you ask me, I'd say keep RCP5 ring for now and research at maximum rate possible. At the same time kicking AIs out of our island using armed forces. (on down side with this strategy we are likely to ruin our reputation sooner than later)

I will be playing tonight (PST), so get your messages in.

Please check my post#135 for comments on next set of turns.

Re. MMing, with only 5 cities, the number of checks needed by each player is 50 in a 10 turn stint. Not that many really, or?

Settling in new locations: Settling in new areas will not only add to our score (when culturally expanded) but will ultimately add new units to our forces. Especially horses and iron are in my opinion essential to our success. Trading for them will probably be next to impossible in the long run. We will need horses for successful leader farming and without leaders I see our chances of success with the 20K VC approaching 0. So if we can find two equidistant locations for Iron/Horses coupled with lux, I say we go for them and scrap two of our current locations.

Please check my post#135 for comments on next set of turns.

Re. MMing, with only 5 cities, the number of checks needed by each player is 50 in a 10 turn stint. Not that many really, or?

Settling in new locations: Settling in new areas will not only add to our score (when culturally expanded) but will ultimately add new units to our forces. Especially horses and iron are in my opinion essential to our success. Trading for them will probably be next to impossible in the long run. We will need horses for successful leader farming and without leaders I see our chances of success with the 20K VC approaching 0. So if we can find two equidistant locations for Iron/Horses coupled with lux, I say we go for them and scrap two of our current locations.
Yes 50 cities were checked on my turns, but who's to say I got all the manipulations. I agree however, that the minimum we should do is look at each city each turn, especially those that are close to growth or unit production to see what can be done. However, nobody can be expected to see every item of manipulation.

I'm not sure about moving cities either. However, we can rebuild the palace in one location, if we have a spare leader. We need to address this again as the game progresses.

Agreed that DH is up and Scout is skipped. Good luck tonight

Roster

Wotan (on deck)
Dman
Tarkeel
smackster
Scoutsout (skipped)
DH (playing)

OK agree to postpone decisions re. relocations.

Tech is an immediate decision though. Literature in 1 turn. Do we go for tradeable tech or most useful? Currency, Construction or CoL? I'm OK with all of them if there are any strong opinions re. choice.

At this point we can go after any tech in the proposed list
Currency is good if we plan to build marketplaces anytime soon, if not then CoL of philosophy.
Again at this point we are free to research practically anything from the list.
Next possible wonder technology - Monarchy with hanging gardens, but i'd rather buy that tech from AI than research it ourselves and we still have quite may turns to go before HG.

Philosophy is cheap to research so we can use it for bargaining with other AIs.
I hope our galley will meet other civ during DH turns.

On City relocation. I am not opposing Wotan's ideas. What i would love we had - some test games played with and without city relocations.
Again, In my test game i was always able to trade horses (see my post #2), and we don't need horses all the time, we just need to build up cavalry during those 20 trade turns and then use upgrade ladder. We won't need and won't be able to afford big army. Let's say, if we have traded horses and build 30-40 horsemen, that would probably enough until the time we have cavalry. The only problem here - Mad Bax didn't give AIs more than sources of horse and they won't be able to trade period. Therefore we have to explore our world ASAP.

I am concerned that we will have much more difficult times hunting leaders without horses, but I am afraid by the time we will get to the horses it will be too late anyways...

The fate of any 20K game is usually decided in AA. The team who builds most AA wonders will win, and there is no doubt about that... Simply because every wonder doubles it's cultural points every 1000 years, and AA wonders built in BCs will accumulate huge culture.... In this retrospective Mad Bax's idea of having 5CC competition game is not really fair to play in PTW.
Everything, 100% depends on pure luck. It would be much better choice in Conquest with Scientific Leaders turned off.

Even if team decided to choose conquest, the fate of that team will depend on that lucky single team who manages to get few extra leaders in AA times and build maximum amount of wonders, the rest of the game is just a series of pushing "next turn" button.

Oh, well, I am just whining, but i think there is some truth in my words.

Actually, I think M-B managed to cut down on the early luck quite a bit by putting us as carthage and Rome next door. The only "better" civ would have been Greece, again. It will be very tough to fight an early war against legions, especially as we can't use our expensive spears without triggering a golden-age.

Have had quite a busy weekend, but back to the game again now :)

Preturn: MM Leptis Magna as specified, shaving off a turn on the archer.

Turn 1: Literature comes in. Here are the tech times:
Currency: 14 Turns
Philosophy: 5 Turns
Code of Laws: 9 Turns
Horseback Riding: 4 Turns
Polytheism: 10 Turns

I decide to go for Philosophy. We can get it quickly and trade it around without a long-term time investment. Utica swapped to Library, due in 7. I shave a turn off of that by putting the city on a starvation diet. This will mostly empty the food box but the library will be finished before starvation is a factor.
Turn 2: Worker produced. Minor MM’ing done. Keep up the running blockade; I hope that the Romans don’t just spit out another.

Turn 3: Continue mobilization, with the first set of catapults ordered up.
IBT: Roman settle pair turns around and heads into the interior.
Turn 4: Continue mobilization.
Turn 5: Usual. Still no new contacts
Turn 6: Philo comes in, start on…Code of Laws. Scale research back to 70%. Rome finally has Horseback Riding; both Xerxes and Caesar are broke still.
Turn 7: Finish Library in Utica, start a Great one, due in 37. Brown border spotted by galley!
Turn 8: Keep up the blockade while military engineers cut roads across the, um, lets call them the Alps. Conact with the Indians (Brown) is made up in the north. They are up HB, behind a few more techs than the rest. Decide to sell Philo for to Ghandi for 36 gold and HB (best price).
Turn 9:
Turn 10: Sack a barb camp, netting 25 gold and an elite archer. We are up to 17 archers and 5 catapults.

@DH good turns. Also good of you to spot the 7 turn Library option with 3 turns on starvation =12 shields and the last on 11 shields wo starvation.

Will have a quick look at it before work now and play it out tonight. 7.30AM here.

EDIT: The Galley on patrol with 2 Warriors have moved to the west coast!!! We all need to follow the thread so this does not happen again. That Galley was supposed to wait until the War against Rome and then land the two Warriors next to the Romans Iron. I will move them back again... :( I will have a really good look on the situation but it seems a war is out during my turns now... :(

Hi guys, I couldn't help it but I just had to play a few turns before going to work. Rome is no more, the Romans are still alive though. Shall we allow them to remain in the game or take them out completely? I will connect Iron next turn and Wool the turn after. I only lost 2 Archers to Legions in Rome so Army is more or less intact, they are in their GA though. Two Archers have promoted. Map:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/smackster650BC.JPG

Defend the iron, and leaderfarm on archers/spearmen? Very good work btw :)

WOW!!! Much have changed :clap:
And i was trying to convince you guys we need more archers, actually thinking that will give myself an opportunity to raze Rome... Selfish I am :lol:

Good job!...

At this point I suggest we research straight to the Republic on max speed and revolt ASAP.
That will give us huge benefits plus we can invoke our own GA

I took the afternoon off (a cancelled meeting and a lovely day) So I just played the remaining five turns: And much have changed! You do not know how right you are Dman!!! Re Republic: Max research into Republic was 34 turns so I went for it in 40 turns to gain us some gold. Map is not that interesting at the moment, We have our five cities and a few Roman cities are razed.

Turn log

0 – 750BC
Shield wastage reduced in a couple of cities.

1 – 730BC
Moving Archers towards Rome. Started trek back to east coast with Galley.

2 - 710BC
Two Archers

3 – 690BC
DoW Rome. CoL researched, started Republic in 40 turns. 1 Roman Settler killed.

4 – 670BC
Cumae razed. 1 Roman Settler killed.

5 – 650BC
Rome Razed

6 - 630BC
Consolidation.

IBT: Roman Legion kills an Archer.

7 – 610BC
Legion killed but 3 Archers perished. Iron connected, switching production to Swordsmen.

IBT: Greece finish building The Pyramids in Athens.

8 – 590BC
Attack “west coast” Roman city, Hamilcar appears!!! City razed. Utica switch to Harbour, lose 41(+11) shields but will rush Lighthouse next turn. We will have a safer situation on the high seas and will be able to trade with Persia/India.

9 – 570BC
Utica rush the Lighthouse. Roman Archer killed, No leader.

10 – 550BC
Utica starts building the Great Library. Ravenna razed, Mago appears, sending him towards Utica to rush GL.

After action report:
Rome will give us their two size 1 cities for peace. I guess we could continue to leader farm on them for a while but two of our three elites have generated leaders now so only one left. They have one galley heading north, probably with a settler onboard. I would wait with peace until it has landed and kill it before giving them peace (if at all?).

Persia will give us Horses in exchange for Literature or CoL and their 8 gold. I guess it is safe to give them both since we have a leader that will rush the GL in two turns.

Next up for Dmanakho to consider: more Galleys to discover the remaining tribes. We are safe traversing sea now. Trade for horses. Track and kill possible Roman settler onboard Galley. Peace/extinction vs. Rome. Safely guide Mago to Utica and rush the Great Library. Remember to keep a few Archers in the area between us and Rome to avoid Barbs. in the mountains and near our Iron/Wool. I have sent two Warriors towards Hippo to upgrade to Swordsmen.

I return to the discussion on “satellite” cities. We should think really hard about settling near Pasargadae/former Rome (at equidistant locations to Carthage).

No MMing needed at Theveste, 24 shields remaining forest clears in 1 turn and it generates 7 spt. I have built the Library in Theveste since we will at least keep that city for the duration of the game and the culture will add some workable tiles (and score) Utica is generating max food until GL is finished.

Republic in 33 turns, find the other civs and it should kick in sooner.

Firaxis: 283

EDIT: 8 elite attacks and 2 leaders, I hope we have the same ratio during the whole game ;)

So we have a leader to rush GL, FP should be next right???
I will start building settlers in Carthage and prebuilding FP in Utica...

Team, any thoughts on my turns???? I will play tonight

@Wotan: Superb turns..... Better than i could imagine :cool:

If the roman "galley settler" lands within a couple of turns. Kill it, there are a couple of Swordsmen in the north and you will probably start building Horsemen soon. Then sue for peace and have a settler ready to settle on the same turn. The romans will give you their size 1 cities for peace, with them we should be at 8 cities, switch Utica to FP and raize them all. Maybe the Roman settler (galley) can be allowed to settle if it does not cut our colony on the ivory and take that too in the peace agreement.

EDIT: You shouldn't have to build more than one Settler if we opt to take cities in a peace agreement. Also when/if taking Settlers, take them from Theveste, Leptis Magna and Hippo, they are near size 6 and cannot grow past 6 wo. aqueducts anyway. Let Carthage grow... You could switch Leptis Magna right now to finish a settler in 2 turns.

I'd like to build libraries in other cities too.... just to jump start research.
I'd like to build libriaries even if we decide jump cities to different place in future.

After FP is built and that won't take long, we need to build Colliseum or HG in Utica depending on what technology is available at the time.

I will wait for Roman settler to land on Ivory coast, kill it and sue for peace in exchange for towns...

I am only afraid Romans will try to settle during 20 peace turns on the Iron again... i guess we will have to herd roman settlers not allowing them near iron and when 20 turns expire get rid of them completely.
It superb we have LightHouse, that means until navigation nobody will be able to settle on our island so Carthage land is safe for a long time. :goodjob:

Great turns, 3 AA wonders now, this is going to be a good date. Although we will have to continue our leader farming throughout the game.

I was going to suggest we just keep fighting Rome, but don't raze anymore of their cities, but I think the FP plan is good, and take those cities for peace. We have more than enough troops in the Roman regions to keep them away from our Iron.

I think we should build a library now in Carthage as we seem to have enough military for now. Actually we should probably just continue the fight overseas, there is a nice horses/furs location between India and Persia. Also we can trade for horses now from Persia if we wanted to build some of them. However I'm leaning towards just taking Pasargadae (razing it). We should get India/Persia to fight each other before we arrive.
There will be a fine balance between keep the AI researching tech for us and not allowing them to get head starts on wonders. In general I'd like to keep them fighting each other as much as possible.

We have to think about the best time for a GA. Thinking of wonders, both JS bach and Sistine produce 6 culture so think we should time the GA around the time we start researching those techs, or after we research them to get a boost on building those wonders.


It superb we have LightHouse, that means until navigation nobody will be able to settle on our island so Carthage land is safe for a long time. :goodjob:
Even better with the differenctial sea movement, our galleys can skirt the ocean and essentially move 7 tiles per turn, we'll have full contact in no time.

....Thinking of wonders, both JS bach and Sistine produce 6 culture so think we should time the GA around the time we start researching those techs, or after we research them to get a boost on building those wonders.


Bach's produces 5 cultural points i think. (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3wonders.shtml)
And indeed it should be in the list of must have wonders to build, Sheakespeare is another must have wonder with 6 cultural points... Add to that list coppernicus (4 points) and Newton's (6 points) and we have the full list of MA wonders we must have to have.


There will be a fine balance between keep the AI researching tech for us and not allowing them to get head starts on wonders. In general I'd like to keep them fighting each other as much as possible.

It's not going to work really, on Monarch level AIs won't research for us much... We will be the ones researching and then trading them technologies for GPT... That what happened in my 5CC test games, If i remember correctly AIs only researched very few technologies ahead of me. (Nationalism, Communism etc...) But with trading we will be able to keep our tech slider at 100% and still have huge amount of gold flowing in.

i do agree on the fighting part, but we have to make sure we still can trade, fight one AI at a time and make sure our reputation is good for GPT trades

Just a thought, that we can break the peace with Rome, and as long as we wipe them out nobody else will ever know. And they will not get a contact for a long long time as we have the GL.

So back to my suggestion that we try to leader farm off them up until close to Astronomy, or if we get some WW in republic. The cost of keeping those troops in that area does seem worth it. In fact if we leave them a nice channel, they will give us a constant supply of slave workers in the form of settlers.

So after getting some cities for the FP trick, lets not raze anymore Roman cities.

Just a thought, that we can break the peace with Rome, and as long as we wipe them out nobody else will ever know. And they will not get a contact for a long long time as we have the GL.

So back to my suggestion that we try to leader farm off them up until close to Astronomy, or if we get some WW in republic. The cost of keeping those troops in that area does seem worth it. In fact if we leave them a nice channel, they will give us a constant supply of slave workers in the form of settlers.

So after getting some cities for the FP trick, lets not raze anymore Roman cities.
:sad: Nice thought, but i am afraid it won't work... There is an article i read somewhere on this web site. You can use this trick only if both sides don't know nothing aand haven't contacted other civilizations.... Because we have already contacted Persia and India it is too late....
Although it will ruin our peace deal reputation, i don't think it will have anything to do with our trade reputation. Am i correct here?

Bach's produces 5 cultural points i think. (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3wonders.shtml)
And indeed it should be in the list of must have wonders to build, Sheakespeare is another must have wonder with 6 cultural points... Add to that list coppernicus (4 points) and Newton's (6 points) and we have the full list of MA wonders we must have to have.
I looked them up in the game, but have a feeling that civfantics is right and the game civolopedia is wrong :crazyeye:


It's not going to work really, on Monarch level AIs won't research for us much... We will be the ones researching and then trading them technologies for GPT... That what happened in my 5CC test games, If i remember correctly AIs only researched very few technologies ahead of me. (Nationalism, Communism etc...) But with trading we will be able to keep our tech slider at 100% and still have huge amount of gold flowing in.

It may well depend on the lay of the land, as my only other 5CC that is still in progress, the AI kept beating me to the MA techs. My 5 cities just could not keep up with them. But their land was good, and they, as you might have guessed was a certain Scientific civ, that is in this game. There is no reason to think they would not do the same here.

My general feel on scientific civs is that I want to have researched at least one MA tech before I allow them to enter MA, so that I can immediately get their free tech.


i do agree on the fighting part, but we have to make sure we still can trade, fight one AI at a time and make sure our reputation is good for GPT trades
And that is the trick we don't have to worry about rep until Rome can meet anybody else, which will not happen until somebody gets Astronomy.

It may well depend on the lay of the land, as my only other 5CC that is still in progress, the AI kept beating me to the MA techs. My 5 cities just could not keep up with them. But their land was good, and they, as you might have guessed was a certain Scientific civ, that is in this game. There is no reason to think they would not do the same here.


Trading, extensive trading helps sucking money out of AI therefore slowing down their own research... We should be very aggressive in trading in our technologies starting with Middle Ages (that is usually when they start givin good GPT bonuses for techs)

:sad: Nice thought, but i am afraid it won't work... There is an article i read somewhere on this web site. You can use this trick only if both sides don't know nothing aand haven't contacted other civilizations.... Because we have already contacted Persia and India it is too late....
Although it will ruin our peace deal reputation, i don't think it will have anything to do with our trade reputation. Am i correct here?
You may be right, reputation is a complex area. I tried setting up some test cases to see how it worked, but found that it was not consistent for me to do that.

Ainwood aluded to this in CivAssist as he tried to show some of the values, it appears there are many and we don't know how they work or interact.

So maybe we should not try to do that. Just keep our reputation in tact.

Trading, extensive trading helps sucking money out of AI therefore slowing down their own research... We should be very aggressive in trading in our technologies starting with Middle Ages (that is usually when they start givin good GPT bonuses for techs)
Yes, but if we take all their gold they wont research anything for us, and we would get a benefit if they could research for us, as we will be far from 4 turn research throughout this game.

Take somebody like Greece, they may well be the most likely civ to research something. So once we can generate enough cash from the other civs for 100% science, we might want to leave Greece alone, and let them research something. If we keep the others civs poor, they would not be able to buy the tech from Greece, so that only we could get it and sell it on for whatever we can get.

However, we don't want to get the research too far ahead of our wonder building. For instance if we have researched Theology and Invention, and are building Sistine, but have not built Theo's. I would not trade either tech, and would try to slow the AI down. But if we have no wonders to build, then we want the AI to speed up their tech pace to help us out :)

We are clearly not going to research Monarchy in this game, so will have to wait for the AI to do it.

We need to keep this discussion going throughout the game.

Right now we should do our FP trick, finish republic, and then research as quickly as possible to the MA, and then to Theology. I would gift republic to all that we meet. After the FP build colloseum, and HG if it comes up. GW only if we have spare shields/leaders.

-------------

Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that the forum is joining seperate posts together right now? This part was a new post

------------------------

And another new post. How many Legions have we seen so far? I see that there is at least one left.

@Smackter, Aren't we two chatty boys today :D

I agree about greece, disagree on research times however...
(only the problem here Greece would probably be the one willing to give most GPTs for our techs and i'd rather take their money than let the use it)

With Libraries and Universitities built in all 5 cities and unit support at or below 100GPT we should be able to have 4-6 turn technology research time up until Modern Ages. (according to my personal experience in test games) In modern ages it is not possible to research tech faster than 9-10 turns even when research labs are built, that is when we will need Greece help but not for a long time.

@Team: Please keep in mind everything i and Smackter said in previous few posts is pure speculation that only shows a very broad idea :mischief: and we should adjust tactics during the game depending on situation.

I really like the way game has started. Wotan did a fantastic jobs getting 2 leaders. I hope other teams won't be so lucky.

@Smackster again: I am sorry, i haven't quite understood this phrase: "GW only if we have spare shields/leaders"

D-man: GW is Great Wall...

@Smackter, Aren't we two chatty boys today :D

I agree about greece, disagree on research times however...
(only the problem here Greece would probably be the one willing to give most GPTs for our techs and i'd rather take their money than let the use it)

With Libraries and Universitities built in all 5 cities and unit support at or below 100GPT we should be able to have 4-6 turn technology research time up until Modern Ages. (according to my personal experience in test games) In modern ages it is not possible to research tech faster than 9-10 turns even when research labs are built, that is when we will need Greece help but not for a long time.

I remember the time before when D-man accepted everything we said without fuss, now half the time he's disagreeing, next he's going to spot MM mistakes by Wotan and scold him for it :)

Our primary goal should be to get deals in place so that we can research 100% science. Obviously we'll maximise the research of our 5 cities, and beyond that not much we can do about our turn rate.

At that time, if we can stay in front (which will be hard with 5 cities) I would want to manipulate the AI to stop them from getting deals with each other. Although we can't see it you know it will happen, so we want all AI GPT deals to be with us. Any AI -> AI deals may be lost gold for us.

Only once we get into that kind of position, can we designate a researcher for us. So this will be a long time coming.

D-man: GW is Great Wall...
Yes, I mean I'm not sure if we'll have time for building the GW. Lot of shields for little culture.

I remember the time before when D-man accepted everything we said without fuss, now half the time he's disagreeing, ...

Moi fussy???? :blush:, Nah never..... :mischief:

...next he's going to spot MM mistakes by Wotan and scold him for it :)

:hmm: That's an excellent idea, since i am playing after Wotan. :nya:

It superb we have LightHouse, that means until navigation nobody will be able to settle on our island so Carthage land is safe for a long time. :goodjob:

I am afraid this is not entirely true. I checked the map and found a spot where it is possible to move across:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/smacksterpassage.JPG
When I downloaded the pic I saw a file named bedesgotm4lighthouse, I guess it means they have it too. ;)

We need to get a ship to one of the two locations to avoid any "intrusions". One Galley is fairly close, suggest moving it there and AVOID MOVING IT AGAIN!!! EVERYONE READ THIS SO IT DOES NOT MOVE AFTER ARRIVING IN ITS BLOCKADING TILE!!!!!

Good catch Wotan!!!! :goodjob:
I will make sure to put a galley over there ASAP....
I will also rename a galley so everyone know what it is doing there and won't move by mistake.

Oh, did i say i will play tonight???

:hmm: That's an excellent idea, since i am playing after Wotan. :nya:

This means war!!! :lol: I have to read through the whole exchange of thoughts you have had, before any official DoW though... :D

That must have been intentional by cracker to allow the AI to get across. That is a really good spot, I wonder if there are other area like that to get across.

Roster

Wotan (just played)
Dman (playing)
Tarkeel (on-deck)
smackster
Scoutsout
DH

That must have been intentional by cracker to allow the AI to get across. That is a really good spot, I wonder if there are other area like that to get across.

DH

I will try to check for other spots like this one, although it might be difficult to do without knowing where the other borders are...

I will check the map tonight, hopefully persians won't have time to move with settler to our ivory coast, but if they do i am planning declare war on them..
Any suggestions?

Sorry for double post but look at this
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/smacksterpassage2.jpg

Isn't there 2 passages one above each other??? or am i missing something?

Its two movement points for sea, and one for ocean, so it works in that first example as there are two sea and one ocean, in your example there are 3 sea so they don't get across.

@Smackster: Thanks! i am learning something new every day

Note that this movement only applies to Cracker's differential movement thingy, that is only in 10 or so GOTM's that I know of.

How many Legions have we seen so far? I see that there is at least one left.
I have killed three legions.

We are Industrious and Commercial, we built Lighthouse with commercial attribute...

As soon as we build Hanging Gardens (it has industrious attribute) we will enter our Golden Ages...
It's probably somewhat early to be in GA but we really want to build HG for 4 culture and happiness...

I really like the way game has started. Wotan did a fantastic jobs getting 2 leaders. I hope other teams won't be so lucky.

Just remember it cost us 8 or 9 Archers, two of them elites. And it is all a matter of luck. Both leaders was generated from redlined Spearmen but one of the lost Archer elites was vs. a red lined Legion and the other vs. a vet.Archer. All Elite attacks were made at odds in our favour. Had we had horses I would have made bolder attacks since we really need leaders for GWs in this game as we did in last SGOTM...

EDIT: Going to bed now, looking forward to waking up tomorrow morning to a fabulous report from Dmanakho ;)

Fortify the ship, and rename it to "Passage blocker" or something :) That should make it clear why it's there..

Preturn - Switched Utica to produce wealth, while waiting for GL to arrive


T1 530BC Roman Archer from Veii attacks our archer and dies; another archer leaves Neapolis I think I'd like to destroy Veii before making peace with Romans. Checked cities, assigned tasks to workers.

T2 510BC, Leptis Magna finished Galley -> library, Theveste - Library -> sword; rushed GL in Utica. Galley reached remote land; I can see dark green border, but no units or cities in direct view. Another Galley blocks passage to the Persian island.

T3 490 BC. GL is complete. Dark Green borders were Celts, not very advanced nation. I sold them math for 20 gold. That was all they had. Archer kills roman archer and gets promoted to elite.

T4 470BC Nothing much is going on, Indian galley appeared, but guess what, "passage blocker" worked. Our galley moves along Celts coast, another galley up north went east, crossed ocean and spotted a land. All AIs are broke... :eek: Can't make a deal with Xerxes any more... I waited till now hoping to get more money from him, but it looks like he went totally broke and sold his harbor... No trading with Persia is possible for some time. (I am not sure if it would affect our reputation if I made a deal earlier just to break it in a turn or two.)

T5 450BC Romans landed an archer from galley near Leptis Magna; I guess roman galley didn't have a settler after all. Sword kills that archer. I destroyed Veii, no losses on our side. With help of catapults I killed 2 legions, I think all they had. I had one elite victory this turn, but no luck this time. Will make peace with Rome next turn.
I haven't been given instructions what to do with Roman slaves, so I am sending some towards our land and left few to road southern shores and land for easy troop movements, There is one slave roads Jungle since beginning of my turns, I am not sure the purpose but I left it to finish.
Celts land is rich. Galley spotted horses, iron and 2 silks next to each other.

T6. 430BC Oops, Xerxes has construction that is where he must have put all his money. I offered him CoL, Lit and all our money but he won't take it. Our cash register is low only 90BC and +1GPT. More news - No peace with Rome this turn, I spotted Roman settler, we will have to wait until next turn to kill.

T7 410BC. Killed roman spear and enslaved settler. Two more workers. Making peace with Romans. They gave us 2 cities and 2 more workers. Rome is left with a single city. Here comes the problem, Xerxes can trade again...BUT… He would give me Horses for either wool and CoL or wool and 34Gold.... After long thinking and haggling with greedy Persian I am giving gold, may be we could use CoL to trade for construction in future... Switched to Horses in Theveste and Hippo.
The rest of AIs are still broke. We are paying too much of military overhead at this age... I suggest we scrap catapults and archers towards construction projects in our cities and build few Horses instead. A-ha... Galley spotted orange border... We will have to see who is that next turn.
Oh right, I forgot, I had a settler so we expanded to 8 cities, Utica switched to FP and I have abandoned 3 cities.
Last roman city has only one citizen and I hope they don't have spare settlers left.

T8 390BC. Orange border was Ottomans; Guess what, they have construction... Forget it Xerxes, Great Library will give us free construction next turn. Same galley spotted dark blue border.

T9 370BC. I surrounded Neapolis with Archers, although on a second thought it is a silly move, Neapolis will expand in few turns. (LATER EDIT: Actually not silly on the third thought, we need to restrain roman settlers some how until peace deal is over). Galley sees more of a blue border but no units no cities in sight yet. I sold CoL (good choice on trading Horses for gold previously) to Xerxes for furs and 49 gold. I thought I could moves lux slider to 0% but no, Utica people are not happy. I will add one more MP to Utica. I switched Theveste to build aqueduct.

T10 350BC Added horseman to MP in Utica, but people are still not happy. Dark blue border was Babylon. Quite backward nation. I sold them math for 26 gold. Also sold construction to Gandhi for 10 gold. The rest of AIs have no more than 2 gold in cash. One civilization is left to discover (LATER EDIT: actually more than one, i never looked up space race and haven't realized how many are there). Oops, I shouldn't really have traded on the last turn; I messed up my turn records and thought I still have one to go... Good think I looked at the date and it made my suspicious, had to recount... I've done.... Tarkeel is next.

Here is the map:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sgotm4smackster350BCmap.JPG

FrontPage palace has 11 turns to go. Firaxis score - 307, Jason - 407

After Carthage builds library it can start mass producing horses, Leptis Magna finishes library in 1 turn, we can start building aqueduct. I didn't start building neither library nor aqueduct in Hippo, since we might move this city and establish new one down south. This is opened for discussion.

I tried to MM my best, but i am sure Wotan will find something to complain about. :mischief:.


That's all folks! :beer:
Link to save - here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Smackster_SG004_BC0350_01.SAV)

Nice progress, all the trading looks good, although I don't have much time to look and can't load the game.

FP in 11 from here is a real bonus. Not sure if there is just one AA tech to get, we should move our archers from the southern border and let some huts gather for the barb uprisings. This would be a nice easy elite training area.

I certainly think we should move Hippo to that high production area just as soon as we can. A leader there, and we can move the palace, although I'm not sure I'd do that as we'd probably want to use the leader for Utica.

Unit support is too high, but not sure I'd disband the archers. Rather why not send them over to fight India, or whoever we don't have a per turn deal with, get their neighbour to join.

You know fellows, i never looked at the space race to see an entire picture...
it looks like with exception of Russians we have the whole bag of scientific nations...
After all I doubt we will be leading research in this game :rolleyes: .
I am afraid i am not going to give anymore stupid advices, I did not realize who we are playing against :sad: .

well, may be just one... We'd better be sure after FP we build colliseum (not build but buy or rush actually) and then HG... We must build HG before we build any MA wonder, even if that means researching monarchy ourselves (which i doubt we would need to do), for two reasons - 4 culture points and it is twice as cheap comparing to MA wonders.

Other than that on game strategy - I have absolutely no clue for to say. :confused:

A leader there, and we can move the palace, although I'm not sure I'd do that as we'd probably want to use the leader for Utica.

Since we have only 5 cities palace should be cheap to build if we wanted to.
Just lets make sure it is far enough to give us an advantage of palace exploit bug ;)

FP in 11 from here is a real bonus. Not sure if there is just one AA tech to get, we should move our archers from the southern border and let some huts gather for the barb uprisings. This would be a nice easy elite training area.

I thought about that as well, we just have to make sure to protect colonys, if there is an uprising Barb horsemen can make quite a journey in one turn to mess things up. We are 2 tech away from MA - Currency and Poly.


Unit support is too high, but not sure I'd disband the archers. Rather why not send them over to fight India, or whoever we don't have a per turn deal with, get their neighbour to join.

Well we have horses now as well, why wait, lets start skirmishing them. Although i never built more galleys and those were built during my turns were sent to explore.

Oh, and for the Romans - lets wait 20 turns and kill them all.... It is just too messy trying to herd settlers they will be spitting all the time.

..and the last note... I wasn't able to increase spending on research, but somehow we have to make it happen... It's just taking too long researching on 10%, I want to be a free citizen of Carthage republic soooonnnner than later ;).

Preturn - Switched Utica to produce wealth, while waiting for GL to arrive.

Good of you to spot this! It slipped my mind... That is what makes the handover turns so good, lots of eyes and minds to scrutinize them...

FrontPage palace has 11 turns to go.

Possible to have it in 10! Next turn(or maybe second turn but to be safe do it next turn and move back on the last turn if a surplus is discovered) move a citizen on a plains to the mountain that finishes next turn at Utica. We will lose some food but not enough to have it starve a pop.

After Carthage builds library it can start mass producing horses, Leptis Magna finishes library in 1 turn, we can start building aqueduct. I didn't start building neither library nor aqueduct in Hippo, since we might move this city and establish new one down south. This is opened for discussion.

I would put my vote on the tile SW of former Rome. 2 cows, iron after 10 culture and wool after 100 culture. And, take the settler from Hippo, so we allow the people of Hippo to have a new home. ;) And a couple of Workers, until it hits 1 in size, so we only lose 1 pop when abandoning it.

I tried to MM my best, but i am sure Wotan will find something to complain about. :mischief:.

Oh yes! ;) Move a citizen from the BG in SW at Leptis Magna to a forest. That opens the BG for a citizen from Theveste, move one of it's citizens to it from a mined grassland and we shave another turn off the Aqueduct.

Finally move the Archers from within Roman territory since it has culturally expanded.

Re. Republic: Maybe, just maybe we should go Monarchy instead? Lets see if it appears before Republic from the GL...

Unit support is too high, but not sure I'd disband the archers. Rather why not send them over to fight India, or whoever we don't have a per turn deal with, get their neighbour to join.

Maybe plan for a move of Leptis Magna too then, to horse/furs near India/Persia border?

@Wotan, thanks, I note all your MM comments everytime, hopefully it will get better and better...
We do need Monarchy for HG, but I think revolting to republic is better because of commerce and less corruption especially if we want to have remote cities....
I was thinking this morning on my way to work... When we get republic, don't sell it right away, we will have only 2 techs (or less) to go until MA, lets do it really fast, then gift our scientific neighbours into MAs and then we can use republic to trade MA technologies... Having so many scientific civilizations we might be able to get an entire 1st level MA techs in a turn or two.

And another thought on unit support: lets use those archers to eliminate Rome and disband them... We should build horses instead, archers are too slow. We can disband them on new southern city to rush some culture.

I was thinking this morning on my way to work... When we get republic, don't sell it right away, we will have only 2 techs (or less) to go until MA, lets do it really fast, then gift our scientific neighbours into MAs and then we can use republic to trade MA technologies... Having so many scientific civilizations we might be able to get an entire 1st level MA techs in a turn or two.
The GL should give us those tech anyway in a turn or two after the scientific tribes get them.

And another thought on unit support: lets use those archers to eliminate Rome and disband them... We should build horses instead, archers are too slow. We can disband them on new southern city to rush some culture.
All but the Elites, lets use them for the possible leaders they might generate.

The GL should give us those tech anyway in a turn or two after the scientific tribes get them.


there are 2 cases: a) 2 and more sci. civs get the same free tech and it is good since we get it for free from GL. b) they all get different techs and then trade with each other - bad we lose gold....
In the latter case we'd better of getting tech using case a. or trading using republic and then sell it to those who don't have it.


All but the Elites, lets use them for the possible leaders they might generate.
Concur with that.

You know fellows, i never looked at the space race to see an entire picture...
it looks like with exception of Russians we have the whole bag of scientific nations...
After all I doubt we will be leading research in this game :rolleyes: .
I am afraid i am not going to give anymore stupid advices, I did not realize who we are playing against :sad: .

Unless mad-bax modded this map further, only one of those scientists is actually scientific. This is to equalise PTW/Vanilla, where they are more likely to get different free techs in PTW over Vanilla, which is an advantage to us. We'll only know which when they get into MA.

I see the game and will play tonight, waiting for some more comments :)

Unless mad-bax modded this map further, only one of those scientists is actually scientific. This is to equalise PTW/Vanilla, where they are more likely to get different free techs in PTW over Vanilla, which is an advantage to us. We'll only know which when they get into MA.

We will have to keep watching other civs entering MA, just to figure out who is scientific and who's not.

@Tarkeel, You are getting a set of somewhat boring turns. no wars, just exploring and building....
When do we want to settle new city? During Tarkeel turns or wait until later?

I think we should take the settler from Hippo as its next build and take a couple of workers too until the Settler reaches its destination. The new city should build culture first to start it's expansion. That will give Tarkeel a mission... :lol:

@Tarkeel, since you do follow the thread (right?) I see no need to reiterate my comments from above. I have every confidence you will play your turns to our mutual satisfaction. ;)

Re city placement, I have not seen any objections to my suggestion so I guess we are in agreement the city should be settled 1 SW of former Rome.

Yes agreed, to start our new city mission. Is it obvious where it should go or do we need a dot map.

I agree with plan

Build new city before disbanding the old one, this way we won't get penalized for an additional army support.
Build library in new city right away and sacrifice few but not all archers to speed it up.

and the last suggestion - rename new city to "Wotan's Dream come true"

Should we build workers in carthage again to populate that city faster????

Beware of barbarians, keep our colonies safe...
BTW, i forgot to mention that in my notes. I had a barbarian hut popped up once during my turns, right next to the worker roading jungle tile...
I thought barbarian's can't appear on visible tiles or can they??? :confused:
I was lucky to have couple of units in reach to kill 2 barbs otherwise we would loose worker and possibly the iron colony.

Just to avoid any risk what so ever of misinterpreting "1SW of former Rome"
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/smacksterlocation.JPG

@Dman, if we take a couple of Workers from Hippo that would probably more than satisfy the need to expand it. Let Carthage grow to 12 before harvesting workers again. They cost 4 turns to replace there now at size 7-12 but whe it hits 12 we can harvest them just to use the otherwise stagnant growth Carthage will experience.

BTW, i forgot to mention that in my notes. I had a barbarian hut popped up once during my turns, right next to the worker roading jungle tile...
I thought barbarian's can't appear on visible tiles or can they??? :confused:
I was lucky to have couple of units in reach to kill 2 barbs otherwise we would loose worker and possibly the iron colony.
This is important!!! Thankfully nothing happened this time but: Only military units with attack/defense can stop barbarians from appearing. Artillery, Workers and Settler do not stop this from happening. I have had a Barb.Camp appear right under a Settler in a game so beware!!!

(Beating myself over the head with a sharp instrument right now for not having thought of mentioning this in the thread, but was too sure it was common knowledge, sorry)

...(Beating myself over the head with a sharp instrument right now for not having thought of mentioning this in the thread, but was too sure it was common knowledge, sorry)

or to re-phraze - "Beating myself over the head with a sharp instrument right now for how much more stupid D-man can possibly be, he doesn't know things that are common knowledge for everyone else" :lol: :lol: :bounce:

More comments.

Don't overdo the archer disbanding, I'd like at least some spare vets left, to deal with barbs and the Romans. All elites should be sent overseas. We have to keep searching for leaders.

Once the peace with Rome ends, don't finish them off, just keep that city there, they will continue to send out settlers and to give us slave workers. There should be a point where we can disband all our own workers to save unit support.

and more comments, lets send those catapults to Utica, as soon as FP is built switch to Colliseum and disband them to speed up production a little...
We are not going to use catapults anytime soon are we????

and more comments, lets send those catapults to Utica, as soon as FP is built switch to Colliseum and disband them to speed up production a little...
We are not going to use catapults anytime soon are we????
I know you used them in your turns, but do you think they were worth building. I agree that we should make them toast in Utica.

Score wise I note that team offa is increasing their score at the same rate as us although a few points behind. I think we'll find the scoring in this game to be much close that the last as we all quickly get to what is essentially the largest empire we can get. Which means we should to a large extent forget about score and simply get our fastest 20k victory, which is what I think we are already doing.

smackster

I stopped one Roman Archer from attacking by wounding it with a Catapult, took one HP off a Legion and killed 1 citizen in Rome (6->5 so not important for the battle).

Shouldn't we send Archers too to Utica for "rushing" colloseum/(marketplace=happy faces))? Maybe more important than a few turns earlier library in new city?

Team offa has a very strong player - Klarius..

He was in X-team in previous game and X-Team won just because of his "controversial" ideas.
I think X-Team won't be as strong in this game, but team Offa is certainly a danger and i think one of the main contenders
I'd love to know what type of victory they've chosen.

Catapults - personally i could live without them during my turns, but we faced legions, didn't know how many, so building catapults was a good decision at the time.

On unrelated note.. I noticed that 4 of us are online the entire day, don't we have anything else to do at work??? :)

Shouldn't we send Archers too to Utica for "rushing" colloseum/(marketplace=happy faces))? Maybe more important than a few turns earlier library in new city?

Good idea. But i wouldn't hurry with building marketplace in Utica... With build of colliseum (happy faces + 2culture) and Hanging Gardens (bunch of happy faces) we won't have problems with happiness in that city for long time.
I must stress on how important is to build HG in Utica... It's a cheap wonder (300shields) but gives same culture as Sistine (600 shields), so no matter what we must build it before Sistine.
and yes, I'd love to have marketplace in Utica but only when that city will have nothing else to build and we should rush marketplace there

Ocassionally I break from Civ talk to do some work.

I came up with more ideas for Tarkeel turns :)

Theveste should switch building galleys and Carthage will produce horses each 2 or 3 turns.
One galley is not far away from our shore can be returned.
I think we need 5-6 galles and therefore 10-12 horses initially to do some scirmishing against India... We can even make RoP agreement with Persians to make our life easier and heal horsemen on their land (they will heal right with RoP right?)
And i assume we want to fight against India first, since they are the closest and can't trade with us.

We probably would be able to start war against India during the smackster's turns

Theveste should switch building galleys and Carthage will produce horses each 2 or 3 turns.
No, let Theveste grow beyond 6 first with an aqueduct.
One galley is not far away from our shore can be returned.
Not the blocker,right?!!!

EDIT: @Dmanakho, it is 8pm here so I am at home...

You are correct about aqueduct, no not the blocker, there is another one near by.
if we do RoP with persians we might not need so many galleys and move horsemen to the other shore in 2 or 3 turns.

Do we want to open barbarian hunting grounds to train elites?? if so we need a well guarded designated area able to whithhold uprising (may be with help of Numidian Mercenaries) and make sure they can't reach our colonies

They will certainly heal with ROP, so we should get that with Persia.

I think we should encourage the barbs, but be warned that the uprisings could happen at any moment.

Finally playing it now. Should be posted in a few hours

No Civ traits have been altered in this game.

The only rule change I made for SGOTM4 was to make iron inexhausible.

So that really means we have whole bunch of scientific civilizations in this game..... Well... we should definetely keep this in mind

Not if he refers to gotm28, it had the changes and if he took that scenario and did no changes to it then only one is a scientific.´Can't remember which tribe was scientific in it though. (Greece?)

Not if he refers to gotm28, it had the changes and if he took that scenario and did no changes to it then only one is a scientific.´Can't remember which tribe was scientific in it though. (Greece?)

Is there any way to find out what traits civilizations have during the game???
I don't think we can rely in civilopedia in this situation

We'll only know when they get to the MA, and we'll only know for sure if we trade with them to get them to the MA on our turn, and we see that free tech.

In some games you get a clue, like when you meet Greek scout. But I doubt we'll find any scouts now.

I knew that, but i'd rather know in advance who is who, it might have affected our decision to gift one or the other civilization into MA for trading purposes

Sadly we'll just have to guess. But right now I feel we'll get beaten there, and probably by the scientific civ. There is a chance that our Republic may be tradeable, but apart from that I would not want to trade for it, you would never get the GPT back from ther other civs, they wont have enough cash.

(0) 350 BC
Switch BGs for Theveste and Leptis
Change Hippo to settler
Move to mountain on Utica, but can only hold for 9 turns before starvation this way.

IBT
Rome kicks our our archers

(1) 330 BC
Carthage: Library->Horse
Leptis Magna: Library->Galley (It should be disbanded, so not building aquduct)
Contact Germany: 8g, 4 cities total, down Philo, Lit and Construction

(2) 310 BC
Cancel the interdiction zone around Neapolis, and send our archers home
Contact Scandinavia: 26g, 3 cities, down a lot of techs.

IBT
Babylon starts Great Wall

(3) 290 BC
Carthage: Horse->Horse

(4) 270 BC
Hippo: Settler->Worker
Babylon and Ottomans are at tech parity.

(5) 250 BC
Carthage: Horse->Horse
Leptis Magna: Galley->Galley

IBT
Roman settler heads out.

(6) 230 BC
Hippo: Worker->Worker
Land first 2 horses on beachhead.

(7) 210 BC
Carthage: Horse->Horse

IBT
India starts GW

(8) 190 BC
Hippo: Worker->Worker
Leptis: Galley->Settler (can be veto'ed, but I think it's time to move it
Disband warrior in Hippo to get another worker out of it
Do a cut-off maneuver to deny roman settler access to roads.
Put Utica off diet, and put Carthage on 5 fpt.

IBT
Ottomans start great wall

(9) 170 BC
Carthage: Horse->Horse
Theveste: Aqueduct->Horse

IBT
Athens builds Great Wall. Monarchy isn't out, so cascades broken.

[b](10) 150 BC[b]
Utica: FP->Colosseum
Hippo: Worker-> (disbanded)
Abandon Hippo and found Sabratha: Library
Disband 5 cats in Utica, bringing it down to 7 turns (last cat won't help)
I haven't joined in workers yet, there are a few native workers to join in. Irrigate the wheat first though.

Firaxis: 332
Jason: 440

Notes:
PLEASE!!! Don't leave units on auto goto past your own turns..
Also, you can tell if they are scientific if they are building a discounted libary when you establish embassy...

Yes good trick with looking for the cheap library build, although I would not want to spend the cash to get the embassy, and find they are not building a library :)

Assume Utica completed FP?

I haven't joined in workers yet, there are a few native workers to join in.
I would rather we keep foreign workers and join our own since they (foreign) do not cost support. I do not know which you mean by "native" so just made this comment.

@Wotan: Native = our own :)

@Smackster: Utica: FP->Colosseum on turn 10 :)

Any thoughts on moving leptis magna to the Indian Island?

I'd like to see the corruption on the new city before deciding about another move.

smackster

@Wotan: Native = our own :) Any thoughts on moving leptis magna to the Indian Island?
Thanks, I guessed that but just in case... And, well played!

Let's wait until we have cleared the area for the next city and Smacksters comment is relevant too. Let's find out if the corruption tool is correct in predicting ~30% corruption in republic....

EDIT: No trades?

PLEASE!!! Don't leave units on auto goto past your own turns..
Also, you can tell if they are scientific if they are building a discounted libary when you establish embassy...


I apologize for this one. It all happened because I messed up a turn count and thought i had one more to go of my own :blush:

Should we post the Utica's cultural points at the end of the turn log in addition to Firaxis, Jason scores?

How about a map, quite a few hours before I can get out of work.

Yes lets start posting culture

From the main thread:

CivAssist is Ainwood's tool and he claims it's spoiler free.
But it shows the real traits of the civs you know.

Wotan, Tarkeel do you guys have CivAssist to lookup real traits of our neigbours?????
Smackster and I are still at work and really bored, we need some civ related info to keep our lifehood.

Ottomans, Persia and Germans are Scientific according to CivAssist.

Culture 648, 16026 final score according to CivAssist so still a few builds before we can win prior to 2050AD.

EDIT: Check out corruption in CivAssist, difference between Monarchy and Republic is 1% in Sabarath but unit support is 44 gold higher in Republic.

Ottomans, Persia and Germans are Scientific according to CivAssist.

Culture 648, 16026 final score according to CivAssist so still a few builds before we can win prior to 2050AD.

Germans, huh......
traits certainly have changed in GOTM28....

I think We also have Babylonians and Greeks Tarkeel has not met yet.
I wonder if they are scientific and if they are we have 5 sci-fi civilizations to compete with. :eek:

We have met Babylon. Not sure about greeks..

No trades though. Didn't really pop up anything good imho.

Don't forget the extra gold in Republic though, should be 60 extra base gold once our cities max out on pop.

Ottomans, Persia and Germans are Scientific according to CivAssist.
EDIT: Check out corruption in CivAssist, difference between Monarchy and Republic is 1% in Sabarath but unit support is 44 gold higher in Republic.
Last time I looked, CivAssist got the corruption difference wrong, I'm not aware that Ainewood has fixed that yet

EDIT: Check out corruption in CivAssist, difference between Monarchy and Republic is 1% in Sabarath but unit support is 44 gold higher in Republic.

:confused: :confused: :confused: I am triple confused.....
if it is only 1% then go figure what to revolt to, republic or monarchy... we have to triple check if it is really so... but then again, Tarkeel is right, republic gives so much extra gold in commerce, should allow us to support enough units.
But then again war weariness issue.... :confused: :confused: :confused:

Ottomans, Persia and Germans are Scientific according to CivAssist.

Strange that Ainwood lets us know this, maybe he doesn't agree with playing with civ traits.

Certainly makes this one interesting. If I'd known this I would have suggested skipping Republic because if we could have got ahead and actually researched one of the MA techs first, we would have been able to get them all for nothing and everyone's gold. In any case this probably means there will be a sudden cascade, and one turn we'll be two techs ahead, and the next turn the AI will all have the first level MA techs and we'll be behind.

However, as they don't all have contacts with each other, we may still have a change. I expect to see it happen any turn, and will keep a very close eye on that, closer than normal.

:confused: :confused: :confused: I am triple confused.....
if it is only 1% then go figure what to revolt to, republic or monarchy... we have to triple check if it is really so... but then again, Tarkeel is right, republic gives so much extra gold in commerce, should allow us to support enough units.
But then again war weariness issue.... :confused: :confused: :confused:
Don't be confused, its a CivAssist bug. I reported the same in the CivAssist thread and ainwood said he was not calculating the Republic bonus correctly

Anyways, the only suggestion I have for next set of turns - once colliseum is over start prebuilding next wonder with palace in Utica, and finish off Rome,

I don't think we will get many slave worker from rome..
They will send settlers during peace time and unless you herd them they will settle, and when peace is over those cities will be too small to yield slaves. so we are talking 2 maximum 4 slave roman workers each 20 turns. For me it is too small number and Romans are just annoying to have around.

Oh, wait a second, here is another thought, since Rome will never become a major power we can keep them around just to use the space on our land and prevent other more powerful nations to settle. How does this idea sound??
it's just once every 20 turns we shall raise their biggest cities to keep them down.

Who's up, oh me, I got it, playing now

T0 150BC
Already don't like the corruption in Sabratha but this is despot, so need to wait until Republic to tell, and change that settler to a galley. No more MM that I can find, check all diplomacy, nothing going.

Pulll an archer back to give us more dark shadows to create some barb huts.

T1 130BC
Join two of our workers to Sabratha, I'm seeing 50% corruption, which is probably ok for Despotism, add a slave (as its the only one there) and its above 50%

Now is the time to think about our next war. I want to do it now, as we have a tech over Persia and can use that for an alliance against India. We have 6 troops there, I want a ROP and an alliance.
So I first get an embassy with Perisa, 69 gold, but what can you do, can't exactly haggle here. Now it gets harder, partly with a 5CC we are not too strong, so alliances cost more than I'm used to. They wont even give us a ROP for free. So I get MA against India and ROP with Persia for Literature, 1GPT, and 46 gold.

So an auspicious start to my turns as I start a war and spend all our gold on it.

Rome settle a new city, we have 6 turns left and then we destroy that.

T2 110BC
We see Persians fighting Indians, IBT, and Immortals on their way. Our stack of six moves to madras.

Carthage grows to size 11, we need more happiness, so use a scientist, which lets us push science to 0% and keep lux at 10%

Persia come up with Currency, obviously we can't get it.

T3 90BC
Our horses attack Madras, two wins and two retreats and we take it to have a look. There are 5 workers there too. They have a harbour, or rather they had a harbour as we abandon it.

T4 70BC
Now have to rest our horses, before moving them further. Use Indian workers to carve out a space in case we want that city.

T5 50BC
Now we meet the Greeks, in a galley, they have Currency and 100 gold, but we have nothing for them either.

We can get Currency from Persia, but in a deal that includes Ivory. Of course we have two sets of Ivory sitting there unconnected. We can get it for Ivory, 19 gold and 5 per turn, which is good enough as Babylon do not have it and have 120 gold, which we are sure to get from them. It will take three turns to get our Ivory back as the workers are not there.
Babylon give us 134 Gold and 2 GPT for currency.

At last India send something to us, so that we can attack them next turn with elites

Losing the Ivory does not change our happiness status

T6 30BC
Indian get confused and don't come our way, so now our stack starts to move on them.

I mess up with happiness and lose Carthage for a turn. Must be my eyesight, but it looked ok, lose a turn on Republic damn it.

T7 10BC
Indian sword comes our way, two elites archers attack and one dies, but one kills him, no leader. Two more worker slaves.

Our stack approaches Delhi, which we don't really even need to take. We are just leader hunting.

With 4 luxuries, decide to switch Carthage to Marketplace for happiness there, get it in 6.

We can attack Rome now, but as the barbs may come any turn, worth waiting for that, get some elites and then attack Rome

Colloseum in Utica, and only 22 turns to palace, so we better get onto Monarchy

T8 10AD

Pop rush library in Sabatha, added some Roman workers there, and of course the pop rush doesn't remove any Roman people. Flip chance is 0 with some troops there.

Our horses deal with Persia ends and we have to pay them 31 gold and wool to get it back.

We get the Ivory back

T9 30AD

Persia come up with Poly, but we can't get it for everything we have. Republic in 4 but I doubt it will hold. What can we do. Expecting barb uprisings, but unaware of any huts on our island.
The trade deal with Persia for furs ends, but we can't get it back also, have hire taxman in Carthage, works out better than raising slider.

T10 50AD
Persia are attacking Delhi, but I see them lose some attackers. Still that should soften Delhi for us. India attack two of our horses, who both retreat.
I'm told the Persia are building Sun Tzu, so we know they have Fued.

No barb uprisings

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/50ad1.jpg

Score 354
Culture in Utica 878 (27 per turn, Oracle has passed 1000 years)

We don't have enough cash for Poly, but can probably get it by trading for cash for GPT, but don't want to do that yet. Even if we did we would not be able to get Fued yet.

So wait 3 more turns, get Republic. Don't trade Republic. Get cash in GPT deals until we have enough for Poly. Then see if we can trade Republic for Fued. Then gift everyone else up to MA, but don't sell them Republic. Anyone that gets a different MA tech, try trading for that with Fued and Republic. Hopefully we'll get all three, and can start working on Theology, we need that sooner than 17 turns so that we don't build the palace.

At your leisure feel free to attack Rome. That peace deal has ended and we don't appear to have any barbs. Just leader hunting, personally I would leave them with their capital.

India have already offered peace but obviously we can't take it while we have an alliance with Persia.

edit: Those workers blocking off the section near Persia are there, to block it off and leave it for us. Some of them are building roads just for the something to do.

As we haven't heard from scout, and I did PM him, I hope he wont mind now if we remove him from the roster. I think its too hard to come into this game now, without having played any turns. Particularly the next set of turns, which may prove very challenging.

That said DH is up.

Roster

Wotan (on deck)
Dman
Tarkeel
smackster (just played)
DH (Up)

@Smackster: Well played

I guess DeceasedHorse is up since Scoutsout have not notified us he is available to play yet.

Next round of turns: The barb uprisings will definitely occur when/if we buy Poly from Persia. Make sure we cover every tile of our hometurf with military to avoid them.

Pre build in Utica, maybe we should get a marketplace built there since the palace prebuild might finish before we have Theology? Or should we build Sun Tzus?

EDIT: Maybe switch build in Sabarath to a courthouse to lower corruption? The Plains Horse tile near Persian border is equidistant to Sabarath/Carthage, but settling there will infringe on Persia's territory. Weakening India is OK but we should switch to war with Persia next so this may not be a proble.

Just one question.. Why pay for currency when it would have popped from GL the next turn? Since the AIs hadn't traded it around yet, there was slim chance they would do it in that one turn. Apart from that it looks good :)

I think we want either Delhi, or a city near the hill just inside persian borders (with a persian worker on it in the picture). I realize that we will be relying on a foreign harbor though...

Just one question.. Why pay for currency when it would have popped from GL the next turn? Since the AIs hadn't traded it around yet, there was slim chance they would do it in that one turn. Apart from that it looks good :)
Since the tribe with Currency was Persia, the only one they could trade with was India, right? The other tribes have difficulties trading until contacts can be traded, will happen with Printing Press? So until then we are the only one able to trade with everyone else.

I think we want either Delhi, or a city near the hill just inside persian borders (with a persian worker on it in the picture). I realize that we will be relying on a foreign harbor though...
I have checked the possible sites where the corruption rank will be equal to Sabarath = distance 20 Three possible marked A, B and C in map below. My favorite is to place it on the horse, best for expansion/production and since we are to reduce Persia too it will be free to expand over the fur at 10 culture. If we use one of these they will both have rank 4 after scrapping Leptis Magna. Sabarath is rank 5 now so corruption will be lower there too. With a Court house in place they will both be at less than 30% corruption(I hope) ;)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/smacksterchoice.JPG

On another topic: Are we to go Republic ASAP? If so maybe we should build a couple(few) UUs to trigger GA right after Anarchy ends? Or wait until just before we research Theology? To get the most out of it GW wise in Utica. With 5 Scientifics in the game we should have all first rank MA techs by gifting them all into the MA.

@Wotan: Both Persia and Greece had currency though.

Then I guess it was a mistake to buy it, especially with Greece having it, they should be in contact with all but Rome, India and Persia. :(

EDIT: I just reread Smackster's log and he mentioned both in turn 5. Surprised Smackster missed that!

Then I guess it was a mistake to buy it, especially with Greece having it, they should be in contact with all but Rome, India and Persia. :(

EDIT: I just reread Smackster's log and he mentioned both in turn 3. Surprised Smackster missed that!
I certainly missed that one, if only I'd remembered we have the GL, guess I'm not used to playing with it.

Actually maybe this changes all my thoughts on trading to get into the MA. As we don't actually need to research or trade for any of them until Education.

smackster

Actually maybe this changes all my thoughts on trading to get into the MA. As we don't actually need to research or trade for any of them until Education.

smackster
Maybe we need to "help" the others reach Education though, the AI usually goes innovation first (lower half).

I'd really want to build HG before any MA wonder, if possible...
HG cheaper takes twice as little time to build, and gives more culture than SunTzu and Leo

I might and might not be able to play my turns.
I am leaving for a little vacation friday night and won't be back until monday.
Not sure if i take a laptop with me but even if i do i won't be able to play.

Maybe we need to "help" the others reach Education though, the AI usually goes innovation first (lower half).
First questions should be, do we try to get Poly or wait for somebody else to get it. If we buy it, and sell it on we are then in control of who else gets in the MA, and when we get those first three techs. I don't like waiting as we should start researching something else as soon as Republic is in play, and I'd like that to be Theology.

Here is a plan, wait until we have Republic and trade that for Poly (and all their cash). Then start selectively gifting the AI in to MA, seeing what they have, sellling them what they don't etc, until we have all 3 first level techs edit: which means obviously that this has to be done over two turns.

We will just have to hope somebody comes up with Monarchy for HG.

Also agreed that we need to build a couple of our UU.

smackster

I'd really want to build HG before any MA wonder, if possible...
HG cheaper takes twice as little time to build, and gives more culture than SunTzu and Leo

I might and might not be able to play my turns.
I am leaving for a little vacation friday night and won't be back until monday.
Not sure if i take a laptop with me but even if i do i won't be able to play.
Agreed that I'd like to get it, but we are not going to research it, better to start on those 2nd level MA techs.

First questions should be, do we try to get Poly or wait for somebody else to get it. If we buy it, and sell it on we are then in control of who else gets in the MA, and when we get those first three techs. I don't like waiting as we should start researching something else as soon as Republic is in play, and I'd like that to be Theology.

Here is a plan, wait until we have Republic and trade that for Poly (and all their cash). Then start selectively gifting the AI in to MA, seeing what they have, sellling them what they don't etc, until we have all 3 first level techs.

We will just have to hope somebody comes up with Monarchy for HG.

Also agreed that we need to build a couple of our UU.

smackster

No objections, sounds like a good plan. Let's follow it.

@Dman: HG is a priority too, as you indicate the culture from it is good.

On the war front: draw some more Indian blood, sack Delhi and take what we can from them in a peace agreement (any cities to be abandoned) Then shift focus to Persia to make them balanced vs. India else they will soon own the whole island. Ultimately they are both to be reduced to zero while leaderfarming off them.

Agreed that I'd like to get it, but we are not going to research it, better to start on those 2nd level MA techs.

Worst case scenario, use those prebuild shields to build cafedral - has 3 culture points and probably will be ready in one turn...

On the war front: draw some more Indian blood, sack Delhi and take what we can from them in a peace agreement (any cities to be abandoned) Then shift focus to Persia to make them balanced vs. India else they will soon own the whole island. Ultimately they are both to be reduced to zero while leaderfarming off them.
We have deals in place for close to 20 turns still (horses), so can't work on Persia until then. Therefore we should not sign anymore deals with Persia from now.

Is it OK, reputation wise for us to settle new location at site "B" on my map before going to war with Persia or should we wait until then for that too?

Who do we get horses from if we start war with persia?