SGOTM4 - Game Thread.

Hi everyone, and welcome to your game thread.

Here is the start position.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4.jpg

Note: EVERYONE has to install the correct resource graphics whether or not they have played this scenario or GOTM before. If you haven't done it yet, you had better get a wriggle on.

The saves will be available once the timelock has been released tonight (19th September).

Here are some links you might find useful.

The original GOTM28 Announcement. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/gotm28_india.shtml)
The Draft Constitution (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1733966&postcount=61)
The GOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=71788)
SGOTM4 - Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=100194)
Download latest Save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php)
Upload a Save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm.php)

This Months' sponsored variant is 5 City Challenge the rules for which are as follows.

1. You may not end a turn with more than 5 cities.

Team Leaders: It would be a good idea to PM your team mates to get them all checked in here as soon as is possible. ;)

Good luck everyone! :)

Space checking in. I've installed the scenario, and the test game plays OK. Nice one, BTW MB. :lol:

Checking in! :D

Are we going to play the variant? (I've never played a 5CC before :blush: )

A 5CC is not so bad, it's a low-maintenance variant. ;)
Just like with an AW, you need to be careful with your troops, since you never have a zillion cities building them like most games have at some stage. 5CC is mild in the sense that you will be able to form an Army, and are able to build things like Wall Street. A 3CC or even an OCC are that much harder.

edit: Another thing to carefully consider is non-overlapping borders, make the most out of all cities. And be sure to have at least one coastal city, otherwise: no ships at all... :eek:

The only 5CC I played I lost. Karasu and Space were playing too. :D

Worse, we just quit... :cringe:

Maybe we should tell him that we wanted a 100k culture win by achieving 5 times 20k..

I guess you need to be careful with unit maintenance as well - lose out on the 'free units per city' figures for republic for example.

Checking in. I have also never played a 5CC. But if we could do well in that last crazy game, we should be able to muddle through with this one.

I need some advice: I had to reinstall Windows a couple of months ago and so lost all my old GOTM saved games and the install packs. Rather than install everything again I will see if I can rely on my wonderful team members to tell me what they remember about the terrrain in the original GOTM game. Perhaps some general info will jog my old memory beans and help me later in the game. Or a picture would be great, if someone has one.

What will be our initial strategy?

I will check in tomorrow morning as I am going to sleep now. Night all.

Checking in and ready to go (ehm... as soon as I have installed the resource graphics... :blush: let's say tomorrow).

5CC is fine. Besides, we still need to win one! Just let us not make it a 5x20k game, ok? :D

We need to decide on a victory condition from the outset.
For me it's either Diplo or 20K, with Space as a fallback. Diplo is the most straightforward, but 20K more interesting probably. A leader fest.

I'd vote for a 20k game with a lot of fighting.
If we run out of opponents before we reach 20000 culture points, I wouldn't object to settling for a Conquest victory... :D

I knew you'd say that :D

I agree BTW.

Rather than install everything again I will see if I can rely on my wonderful team members to tell me what they remember about the terrrain in the original GOTM game. Perhaps some general info will jog my old memory beans and help me later in the game. Or a picture would be great, if someone has one.
I remember a little bit :mischief: Mutton alley the only thing keeping the X-man at bay....

But then again, goodness knows what MB has done to change it...(well, I know a teency bit and can guess a teency bit more)

Mutton Alley. Now I remember.

So... If we are going for 20K, how will we go about it? The thing is, I would usually make my 2nd city the culture city, for the obvious palace pre-build. Therefore the second city should have the best site. This should be coastal with losts of shields if possible. I would also build granaries - fast growth is hugely important IMO. Not only is getting big cities quickly a must, but we need to build some workers to join into the culture city. We can always sell the granaries at size 12 or if we manage to get the pyramids.

Research is tricky. We need BW for our UU. We need CB for our early temple and yet we can do a minimum run on writing. We also need masonry for the Pyramids.

Can we afford to research a first tier tech and then go for a min run on writing?

Good points.
I shouldn't really talk, as my last 20k game was not that good (what can I say, 't was my third attempt... :whistle: ).

But I cannot shut up :D

I would agree with using our second city 20k, unless the starting spot is really fantastic. Which means that we should get that second city out really fast.

My idea would be however to use the capital as a settler/worker factory, and just join workers to the wonder city asap, without building granaries there.
The tricky part, at least for me, is to find the right balance between growing the wonder city and expanding the 'usual way'.

Regarding research, I think that we want to build a Temple before our UU, so I'd go for CB first. Then Writing and Literature - Republic? Or Mysticism for the Oracle?
EDIT: will it be worth to run at min science?

Oh, and another thing. We can probably count on four AA wonders with well planned prebuilds etc. etc., but we should definitely try to wage a war relatively early.
I know it is against my habits and my will to do this, but an early great leader... ;)

That is an ambitious plan, Karasu. We should remember that in the original GOTM the other inhabitant of our continent was Persia. Also, we had no iron or horses. Now I understand Mad has modified the game, but I think we should still expect to see Persia on our continent.

I wouldn't go quite so far out with a plan. 5CC requires good city placement, which requires knowledge of the surrounding terrain. I would therefore initially concentrate on exploring the area. Send those Warriors out there to explore and then decide on what ring to build. The original game had a rather narrow continent so it shouldn't take too long to determine its current dimensions.

We need BW for our UU. Really? :p

When do we start? Who is going first?

If you're ready and willing Zagnut, why don't you go for it?

I will do that. I think we should settle Delhi at the start position. It is on the river and the coast of "your" old continent was just to the SE. I don't think we want to move in that direction to try and get a better location because then we will be moving away from the center of the continent. My monitor is not the best but there appears to be a cow 2 squares to the SE. All in all I will settle at the start unless anyone has a strong aversion.

Not hearing any dissent (probably because you are all asleep), I will begin.

SGOTM 4 Carthage:

4000 BC - Turn 1 - Move Worker E to BG on river. Reveal Cow to the SE and Spices to the N. Found Carthage (?) on the start square. It seems we are the Carthaginians and not the Indians. I wonder if Mad-Bax knows this!!!

Now I understand that Mad’s comment on our UU needing Bronze Working was a little slip on his part. Our UU is the Numidian Mercenary and that unit needs BW, not the War Elephant.

Choose to research Pottery at 90% and build a Warrior.

3950 - Turn 2 - Worker mines BG.

3900 - zzz

3850 - zzz

3800 - Worker completes mine, starts road.

3750 - Warrior born and heads to mountain. Sees water to the W and 2 more Spice squares. Another Warrior under way.

3700 - Worker completes road. Goes to Cow square.

3650 - Turn 8 - Oops. Cow square doesn’t have access to water. Will road square and then irrigate BG next to it. Warrior going NW.

3600 - Warrior N and will circle to the E.

3550 - 2nd Worker born. Heads S and will circle W. Worker completes road.

3500 - Cultural borders expand. Worker starts to irrigate BG next to river. Warrior 2 heads S. Reduce science to 60% (Yes, I was checking before and could reduce prior to this). Pottery in 2.

3450 - Turn 12 - zzz

3400 - Discover Pottery. The question is what to research next. BW would enable us to build our UU and we can research it in 16 turns, but we should be careful about using the Numidian so that we don’t trigger a Golden Age too early. The Numidian would also provide good protection against the Persians, who are probably on the other side of the mountains to the south. CB would be good for Temples and would enable us to expand our later cities sooner. But we can hopefully trade for both of them later. My preference is to go for Writing at 40 turns. I think we should try to get to Republic as fast as possible. I must confess that I am a bit wary about committing the team to an irreversible decision so early, but a decision must be made. I decide to go for Writing.

Build Warrior and start Granary. Worker completes Irrigation and moves back to Cow square to irrigate it.

3350 - Turn 14 - Worker starts to irrigate Cow. Southern Warrior confirms that Mutton Valley is still there. No sign of the Persians yet.

3300 - zzz

3250 - Turn 16 - Worker irrigates Cow. Goes back to irrigated BG to mine it.

3200 - Worker starts mine. Increase luxuries to 10%.

3150 - zzz

3100 - Southern Warrior sees red borders. That is probably not Persia - Babylon (?).

3050 - Worker completes mine. Starts road. Granary will complete in 4 turns.

3000 - Southern Worker keeps seeing more of the red border, but can’t find anyone who lives within it. I guess I will have to await the next player to reveal the Secret of the South.

Or Rome perhaps (as a tricky civ to attack... especially if they have iron and we don't!) :eek:

I should have played one more turn, just to satisfy my raging curiosity.

Well done, Zagnut! :)

Where will our coastal city go? Either where the Northern Warrior is standing (3 hills and 4 BGs) or N, NE of the cow claiming it, the whale, 2 BGs and 3 hills. Or should we just take both?

Normally I'd settle the hill W of the oyster, but it overlaps with Carthage, so that's probably not an option.

I'd say 'both', and live with some overlap. Or not? there are just two or three relatively obvious places where we can found our next cities... yes, I need to think a bit more about that

Incidentally, I won't be able to play before Saturday at best. Does anyone else feel like unveiling the Southern Secret, and free Zagnut from the torment of this curiosity? :D

Attached is a Ring Map. The narrow configuration of this continent makes it difficult to find good places to locate our 4 other cities. The decision of where to put these cities will be crucial to our future success. Therefore, I think we should take some time to agree on the location.

There are still a few black squares and one to the west is at ring 5 from a peek at the old map. The 6th ring looks as if it would be the best to me, but it can only contain 3 cities. The 5th could accommodate all 4, but with some overlap. I don't have any experience with a 5CC game. Is overlap really bad because of the low number of cities? If we can live with it, it looks to me as if the 5th ring is the way to go. What do you think?

In addition, there are 3 Ivory squares at the northern end of the map. Since that is tundra we should probably ignore the Ivory for city placement and secure the Ivory with fortified colonies.

Ring 5 seems to be OK, but I think with a 5CC on this relatively small area, fitting them to grab the best tiles is more important than rings. Corruption will be low anyway because we're going to be sub-OCN. Our 20k city needs to be the closest to our capital though, so I think we need to decide at this point already where it's going to be located.

I know that our warmongers plan to have loads and loads of GLs, but I think we need some shields too... ;)

As a random thought, why not put the 20k city on the coast, on the river next to the cow? It can then build all wonders, has two cows in the boundary, and doesn't need an aquaduct. We can build the FP there and move carthage (and the palace) later. :) Distance '3' isn't too bad (for a start at least).

This is a good idea IMO. OF course we will need to build some settlers to temporarily found a few towns in order to get the FP. I believe OCN is 8 for this game IIRC. It is not outside the bounds of possibility that we could end up with two cores. :crazyeyes:

Whats the ruling on the remote palace exploit for 5CC? ;)

While I like the onorthodox idea, will that spot generate enough shields on the long run?

For a 20K city, shields late in the game are not very important IMO. There will be a constant stream of leaders going there to rush culture. We *need* Oracle, Colossus, Pyramids, FP and Great Library in the AA. So we'd better get our fighting trousers on. ;)

It's just my opinion, but I think the productive cities need to be the other cities.

You know what, that's really a good idea.
We can place four cities at distance <= 5 from the 20k, grabbing the whale and BGs to the north, Spices west and the river+oyster location south.
Carthage can be moved with its palace almost anywhere at that point :hatsoff:

If you look at the submission list, we have the most efficient start so far :goodjob:

...We *need* Oracle, Colossus, Pyramids, FP and Great Library in the AA. So we'd better get our fighting trousers on. ;)


I'm going to quote myself:
I know that our warmongers plan to have loads and loads of GLs, but I think we need some shields too... ;)


But your are right in that the AA wonders (esp. the Great Lib) are the most important by far.

Who is up BTW? lil' ol' me?

If you feel like... It looks like we are letting the roster define itself in this first round ;)

In fact, please, go ahead and let us see who lies hiding behind that red border...

So, do I have the plan right?

1. Settle second city 2E of Carthage and use as 20K site.
2. Gear for war as soon as possible - but build the remaining cities.
3. War with neighbour to generate leader for FP
3. Resite our palace along with our other three cities in neighbours territory.
4. Keep neighbour alive for leader generating purposes until we can get contacts.
5. 20K city builds temple, colossus, GL in that order. More if we get leaders.
6. Other cities build barracks and units only. Peel off workers if they get big to join to 20K city.

Is this about the size of it?

3. Resite our palace along with our other three cities in neighbours territory.
Could you explain this goal. I thought a 5CC was successful if it kept its core together and didn't spread out its cities. If we put three cities in the red civs area, which is fairly far away, we will have two cores. Will that be as productive? Can we defend it as effectively?

Hey guys. I have to ask for a skip. Things have taken the shape of a pear at work. My next opportunity to play will be Monday.

Anyone?

I'll be far from the PC tomorrow: we have a world karate tournament in Carrara, and I'll be accompanying the team, so no chance to play. I'm not competing though, so I can see the whole thing live while eating a tasty sandwich with the famous lard from Colonnata (a few km away)...
Note -I only wrote all this because the simple 'Anyone?' was under 10 characters :D

I probably can play tomorrow. :)

Looks as if it will have to be ainwood or space. It would be unseemly if I took another 10 turns!!!

goal
Get the first settler out.
Meet those elusive red neighbours.

IT
Nada

2950BC - turn 1
Move worker to another BG tile.
Warrior moves to Gathag to prevent unhappiness when it grows next turn.
Can't talk to the reds just yet.

IT
Carthag pop 3->4

2900BC - turn 2
It's Rome! They haven't gotten beyond BW and WC, so lack both Pottery and Masonry.
They have a second city, though.

IT
Nada

2850BC - turn 3
After some thought I select the settler a turn earlier over growth. This will ruin our score vs the other teams but will get our 20k city founded a turn earlier.

IT
Niets

2800BC - turn 4
I'm turning freakish: there are still 22 shields needed for the settler, Carthag is producing 7 per turn. The mine on the BG will be finished in 3 so I can get both growth and the earlier settler

IT
Rien

2750BC - turn 5
Nothing much, just scouting.

IT
Nichts

2710BC - turn 6
More scouting.

IT
Cathag Settler -> Rax

2670BC - turn 7
Settler moves 2E to the 20k spot on the coast and river.
Move lux slider to 0%.

IT
Nothing

2630BC - turn 8
Start Granary as a pre-build for a temple. Maybe Writing at min wasn't the best choice with only 1 other civ. Jerking up the sciende slider will shave only 4 turns off (20 instead of 24 turns). Will Rome be kind enoug to reach it for us?

IT
Noppes

2590BC - turn 9
Nothing of note.

IT
Niks

2550BC - turn 10
Nothing of note again. We will lose some of the food produced, and all in all not too brilliant, but we do have a lot of cash, not sure if we can use it for anything worthwhile though. The Granary pre-build should be switched to Pyramids if CB isn't available yet.

It looks as if Map Making might be the crucial tech. With only a backward Rome nearby we will need to discover the other continent(s) ASAP in order to trade techs. If I recall correctly the path to the nearest continent was off the west coast of Rome.

I'll try and play my 10. :)

Just in time for auto-merge ;)

As Found:

All looks good!

Turn 1: 2510 BC
Start CivAssist, and it tells me Carthage is rioting! Tweak lux.
Start mining BG near Utica

Turn 2: 2470 BC:
Nothing special

Turn 3: 2430 AD:
Finish Barracks & I have no idea what to build! :ack:

Talk to Caeser. Haggle a deal, albeit not a particularly good one - 63 gold, masonry & pottery for warrior code & bronze working.
Decide to build an archer.

Donate cow to Utica for a few turns. Decide on a worker - wastes some shields, but it will be helpful.

Turn 4: 2390 BC
Romans have founded antium to the north.
I flip-flop and change to a settler - otherwise we'd waste no less than 8 shields.

Turn 5: 2350 BC
Carthage grows and will riot. I give it the cow back, an MM to give it growth and settler in 3.
Utica will grow next turn.

Turn 6: 2310 BC
Utica grows - the worker is just keeping ahead of it!
Rome have iron working! :(

Turn 7: 2270 BC
Move to hill and can see Rome - it has a warrior only defending it, and is size 1. Maybe an early archer rush is a very good idea....
Will produce settler next turn - so MM to give Utica the cow for a few turns.

Turn 8: 2230 BC:
Carthage Settler - Archer (veto-able)

Turn 9: 2190 BC:
First barbs spotted...

Turn 10:
Disperse a Jin camp, but am red-lined.
The 25 gold is enough to convince Caeser that we are worth negotiating with for Iron Working. Best deal is 160 gold (all of it) plus 5 GPT. I don't accept!

I really think that we should consider an early archer rush, before Caeser gets too many legions our-and-about. Might even get an early GL to rush a wonder for our 20k. :)

Agreed on the archers, it's why I decided to start the Rax while allowing Cathage to grow again. :thumbsup: It's important to hurt them from the start, they should not be allowed to grow stronger then we are.

Great. :)

The settler is still worthwhile - we need to let Utica get the pyramids (note - it needs defending against an errant barb warrior - the archer might be just-in-time - needs confirming). But another city is needed to sneak an extra couple of archers.

I think it work ok, if we setup Carthage to do settler/archer until we have 5 cities (so 2 to go) and archers after that. Is the production suitable? I'm currently not on my Civ machine. :)

Um - I think the first archer is two turns away. There is an undefended settler at RCP3 on the spices, but I'm wondering whether we should stick with RCP3 or actually go to 4.... Let who's ever up next decide that one. Then we can alternate with the settler / archer - or even throw a worker in next maybe. :)

Ok, I got it.
So the idea is to attack Rome directly with a few Archers... looks good to me... :D
With Carthage switching between Settlers and Archers.
How about getting a settler out of the second city (admittedly later) and having Carthage build Archers and workers to be merged with Utica?

We will develop more slowly, but Utica will grow faster and we can have our Archers earlier on. Is it worth?

Regarding RCP distance -considering that Carthage will be moved, I was thinking of RCP5 from Utica. Can't say where it is right now, I'm not on my Civ machine either.

Well, I think that all sounds good. It would be nice to get and RCP 4/5 city from Utica that absorbs the second cow into our territory - the settler I sent out is too far away for this :(

Utica is sharing the Cow occassionally which is helping a bit with growth. Still on a granary build so we might want to change that.

Pre-Turn
Nothing to do, really. Let's go.

Our people build a nice façade for our Palace, but it takes a strangely japanese-like appearance. Where have they seen that architecture, I wonder...

Turn 1 - 2110 BC
Where should this settler go? I decide to settle one tile north of where he is standing, so that it gets immediate access to two Bonus Grassland.
The location is at distance 7 from Utica -we will need to move our capital at least 7 tiles away.

The barb warrior seems to be heading towards our worker. Move warrior from Carthage to protect him, and increase lux to 20%.

IT
Carthage: Archer - worker

Turn 2 - 2070 BC
Our warrior kills the barb warrior. Well done.
Found Leptis Magna: Warrior

IT
Roman warrior explores north

Turn 3 - 2030 BC
Nothing much

IT
Carthage: Worker - worker (Archer now would waste some shields)

Turn 4 - 1990 BC
Rome still wants all our money for IW. No deal.

IT
Barb warrior attacks our vet warrior fortified on a mountain across a river and redlines it before he realizes that he must loose this fight.

Turn 5 - 1950 BC
Join worker to Utica. Now pop 4 and increase in 2. Pyramids now due in 49, Colossus in 20. But we need border expansion.

IT
Carthage: Worker - Archer

Turn 6 - 1910 BC
The second worker won't go to Utica, but will join the first one and build a road to Leptis Magna.

IT
Leptis Magna: Warrior - Settler (vetoable)

Turn 7 - 1870 BC
Workers reach Spices
With Utica at pop 5 we need lux at 30% right now.

IT

Turn 8 - 1830 BC
Workers work, warriors walk

IT
Carthage: Archer - Settler (vetoable)
Got kicked out of Roman territory. Caesar is annoyed.

Turn 9 - 1790 BC
Move warriors, nothing else

IT
Road is finished

Turn 10 - 1750 BC
I leave workers unmoved

Notes
We will need to slow down production in Leptis Magna to get the settler out with pop growth, but I thought that it would be better to get the fifth city out as soon as possible. The other option would be Barracks and Archers, with Carthage getting us the last two settlers. I am not sure of what is the best thing to do in order to speed up our growth.

I was in doubt between settler and worker in Carthage, but further growth in Utica requires border expansion imho (as well as improving more tiles).
I eventually opted for a settler, but it can still be switched to Archer-Worker. We certainly need more workers.

Utica can finish Colossus in 10 turns or Pyramids in 30-something. Of course, the risk with sticking to either wonder is that we may loose the other one.

In hindsight, it would probably have been better to settle north of Utica - Carthage to get the second cow into play immediately, or build a Temple and get Utica's border to expand. Using that cow should be one of our priorities, methinks.

The workers can either go back to Utica or improve a bit the area around Leptis.
And check the lux slider -we just got the lux connected, but I think I haven't brought it down yet.

Ops -I must have played one turn too many... (again)

BTW, it looks like our roster is:

Zagnut
Space
Ainwood
Karasu
Mad Bax (up)

EDIT: I managed to understand something of our new image editing software. Here is a picture from Crp Rings:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGCityPlacement.jpg

I tried to highlight a couple of sites, but the program keeps on crashing (I definitely need some more practice).
Anyway, I think we were considering the area at distance 4-5 north of Utica and the river+oyster to the south -if our plan is to move Carthage in the near or medium-term, it could go north of the river.

And our capital, where should it go? Rome? ;)

Personally I like RCP 4. We can then have 4 cities on rivers. I cannot take the game today. If someone else can play it then please do. I will play tomorrow, come what may.

I could take it tonight (about 7 hours), but I am confused concerning our strategy for the placement of these cities.

1. I thought we had decided to disband Carthage and develop cities further away from Utica.

2. The Oyster/River city was discussed and seemed to be a good location acceptable to everyone.

3. The other two cities would then logically go to the north., but where? One location seems to be at the easternmost 5 so that we can get the Whale. That has no overlap with Utica. But then the other northern city would have to be up at 9 in order to avoid overlap. That would be good for getting the Ivory and keeping other civs from settling there, but it isn't very productive land.

4. Isn't the goal to get the cities founded and productive ASAP? If we wait to conquer Rome and incorporate it into our civ that will probably take a long time and we will not be as productive with only 4 cities. Also, can we effectively defend an outpost city such as Rome?

I would like your input on where we should be founding these cities.

I have not taken the game. I didn't want to until my questions were answered.

Fair enough! I am mildly uncertain as to what our strategy is as well - seems a bit disjointed!

I was advocating an early archer rush on Rome for two reasons: If they get a big fleet of legions, we could be hemmed-in until the middle-ages (presumably we have no iron). Secondly, and early GL could make a lot of difference.

As for the issues surrounding city placement, I do not know. We were agreed on disbanding Carthage, but we might as well get some use out of it in the interim! Keep it cranking out workers and settlers until we have 5 cities and about 10 workers, and then maybe some archers (if we decide to go that route).

We did agree on that earlier, didn't we? Settler/archer for as long as we still need cities, Archers only after that. We should 'prune' Rome as soon as possible, and an early GL would make aa big difference. Firaxis score is not important for us now, we'll never reach domination any way. We do need the cities for cheaper units though but settler/unit should take care of that. I do think that all the cities save our 20k city need to do Rax and units-only after that, until the money runs out. 'Using' (read cannon fodder) the units will mean we'll get room to build new, state of the art units to replace them.

OK I will play this evening and post tomorrow as I don't have internet access from my hotel room. I think it is me that is causing the confusion.

1. The archer rush is necessary and I will build towards it.
2. City placement. Utica will have the FP and Carthage will be disbanded and re-sited in Roman territory. But how many cities will we build around the new capital, and how many around the FP? :help:
3. What should the build queue be in Utica?

I'm a simple person so my answer to the FP question is: let's build 5 cities now, then relocate the capital and leave the cities if they work well. Re-locate if a replacement seems better. We'd lose the investments, so the new spot should be a LOT better.

We still don't have CB so, why not let it work on a Wonder? The cheepest one available, one that could be nearly ready when our GL shows up? Here's to being optimistic. :beer:

Well... I am a bit confused too now... ;)
I think that we really have two options, and I only realized this after reading Zagnut's questions:
1. Have FP AND Palace in Utica, with four cities around it (so that Carthage would be moved to a close location relative to Utica).
2. Build FP in Utica, three cities around it, and move the Palace to a farther fifth city that will replace Carthage as our capital. Rome seems the logical choice.

I really don't know what's best for us -much depends on how the game develops.

Regarding what do we do with Carthage in the meantime, I agree with settlers, workers and archers.
If we leave the present production, with both Carthage and Leptis Magna on settlers, we have already reached five.
At that point, I think we need to get Utica's borders to expand and to use as many workers as possible to increase its pop.

We are also one turn away from Writing, so trading with Rome for IW should be possible. If they haven't got Iron hooked, an Archer rush looks very promising.

Utica can build the Colossus in 10 turns IIRC...

I think I have the idea now - finally :p

I will get CB from Rome, otherwise I will research it at max before Lit. if they don't have it. Temple in Utica and then Colossus.

Getting FP and Palace in Utica would be a mean trick. Is this possible?

Shouldn't it rather be Colossus and then Temple? Utica has quite a lot of shields, I think.

Ops. Now that you ask the question, I am not really sure that FP and P can reside in the same city. I thought so, but my brain stopped being reliable about 30 years ago... :D

I am not experienced with a 20K game, so excuse me if my questions are not appropriate for that type of victory. In most games growth is important. Isn't that so in the 20K game also? Don't we want to get our 5 cities founded and productive ASAP?

I understand that we may want to disband Carthage, but not until we have a better site. If one of the criteria is to not have city borders that overlap, I don't see one except in Roman territory.

We are building up our Archer units so that we can strike Rome and weaken it. But it will take a long time to get sufficient units. It will also take many turns just to move those units into Roman territory. Assuming they are successful and destroy a couple of Roman cities we might then want to move our Palace to that area. HOwever, I am concerned that we will then have an outpost capital separated from Utica by a significant distance. Will we be able to adequately defend it in the future?

Space suggests building all 5 cities immediately. I tend to agree, but where should they be built?

Well, I am not that experienced either -so I am probably wrong...

I think that fast growth is important here too, but so is to get our 20k city as productive as possible in the shortest time: our final date will be determined by the culture buildings we manage to build before the first centuries AD.
Incidentally, balancing the two things is something I am not very comfortable with -before this game, that is ;)

I also agree that Carthage isn't going anywhere before we find a suitable location.

As for the placement of city #4 and #5, I understood that we have a consensus about north (to get the whale?) and south, next to the river. Is that correct?

Those 2 locations sound good to me. However, where does the next city go if we disband Carthage? Mutton Valley is not that productive an area and if we go further south then I fear we will have trouble defending that city in the future. South may be the only alternative because I doubt we want to found a city on the tundra to the north.

Mission accomplished Zagnut, you've got us back-on track! ;)

I don't think we should be in a massive hurry to disband carthage - get the other cities built and then move it. The plus-side to knowing that we're going to move it is that we can overlap tiles for now, and they'll be freed-up later.

@Karasu: I am pretty sure that yes you can have the FP and Palace in the same city.

@Karasu: I am pretty sure that yes you can have the FP and Palace in the same city.
I don't believe that is correct. I don't think that the FP shows up as a build option in the capital city.

But if the FP is already there, you might be able to jump the palace there... I'm not a great user of palace jumps, so I haven't seen this actually happen.

Yes - I was remembering a thread where someone said that they had actually done this by mistake (Might even have been DaveMcW's palace jump explained thread in the strategy forum). Does the Palace show-up as a build-option in the FP city? I hope it does, for pre-builds at least! :eek:

I checked it and... :D
...Yes, Palace appears as an option in the FP city (hmm, shouldn't we have known that).

1 more cpt for Utica then, but is that a good location for the Palace?
I mean, we would loose the "second core" -although with five cities we are not going to loose too much to corruption.

And I think Zagnut is right when he says that it is not clear where we should move Carthage. The northern area has no obvious place, and going to Rome has its risks. Anwyay, we have some time to make up our minds.

I'm not convinced that 1 CPT is worth the hassle, is it? Moving the palace somewhere distant gives all cities rank 1, and that's got to outweigh it (seeing as we've only got 5 cities, I guess having the palace at a slight distance is still within the spirit of the competition, but I guess MB will have to adjuducate. :mischief:

I have not been able to play. :( My director turned up yesterday afternoon. That killed it.

I'm sorry but I must skip again, or swap with the next player.

I'll take it. Back later with a report.

Take game. Reduce lux from 30% to 10% to reflect that Spices have been connected and people are happier. Check Rome for trading opportunities and find they have Writing. We will get it in one turn. Therefore, no trades. Move Workers to road BG squares around Carthage. Archer goes with Worker to protect him from Barb Warrior.

I think it is mathematically advantageous to switch Utica from Pyramids to Colossus. We can get Colossus in 10 turns and Pyramids in 32. Colossus gives 3 culture points/turn. Pyramids give 4. Therefore, if we get Colossus we will accumulate 66 culture points in the 22 turns it would take to get the Pyramids. We will also expand the borders in 4 turns. Since there is only 1 culture point more per turn with Pyramids, it would take the Pyramids 66 turns to catch up with the culture we will accumulate if we elect Colossus. During those 66 turns we might get a GL and be able to get the Pyramids anyway. As a result, I switch production in Utica to Colossus.

IT - Discover Writing. Research CB in 5 turns.

1700 - Turn 1 - Workers work.

IT - Barb Warrior moves next to Archer/Worker.

1675 - Turn 2 - Archer kills Barb Warrior. See what Rome wants for IW. They will not trade. MM Carthage to get another commerce.

IT - Settler produced in Carthage and pop increases. Start Archer. Two Roman Warriors are coming north to sniff at us. Rome is building Pyramids.

1650 - Turn 3 - Pop increases in Utica and Civ Assist tells me they are rioting. Increase luxuries to 20% to calm them down. Thanks for Civ Assist ainwood. Without it I probably would have missed that.

Move southern Warriors to other mountains. Reveal a third Roman Warrior.

Settler starts moving toward the Whale square with an Archer for protection. MM Carthage and Utica to get Colossus in 6 turns instead of 8. Establish embassy with Rome to investigate how they are doing with the Pyramids. I don’t think we need to switch from Colossus. They have only 4 shields per turn and will take 90 turns to build it. We are producing 10 shields per turn and so could finish it in 40 turns. Rome also has a Legionary defending so they have connected their Iron.

IT - Roman Warriors move closer.

1625 - Turn 4 - Nothing much. Reduce science.

IT - zzz

1600 - Turn 5 - With a careless click I move Worker to a hill instead of Settler. Grrrh! Reduce science to 50%. CB in one turn.

MM Carthage to get growth in one turn with no waste.

IT - Discover CB. Research Literature in 21.

1575 - Turn 6 - Warrior to south reveals a couple more Barb Warriors in the southern mountains. Rome will trade Iron Working for CB and 181 gold. I debate whether to wait because Rome already has 123 gold and the trade will strip us of most of our money (we have 217). I decide to accept because CB will not retain its value for long. As we feared there is no Iron in our area. Rome has a source next to their capital.

IT - Carthage produces Archer => Worker.

1550 - Turn 7 - Ask Roman Warrior to leave our homeland. Unfortunately, the fools declare war on us. Kill 2 Roman Warriors with Archers. One goes elite.

Reduce lux to 10%.

IT - Roman Warrior moves from mountain to hill. Retreat to lure him onto grassland.

1525 - Turn 8 - Found Theveste on the NE coast in reach of the Whale. MM Carthage and Utica. Romans refuse to talk.

IT - zzz

1500 - Turn 9 - Carthage produces Worker and pop increases. Utica builds Colossus. Start Pyramids.

Move Worker to build road between Carthage and the Oyster city. Send Archer to protect him as there is a fortified Roman Warrior on the hill where we want to build. Just realized I forgot to irrigate the cow which is now within the Utica borders because of an expansion of the borders this turn.

Well done, Zagnut. :goodjob:

MB shall I take it, or can you play in the near future?

Better if I play on Monday or after. I might be able to play - but then I might not. So rather than take it and not play again I'll leave it. I'm so sorry. :(

Pre-turn
Switch Utica to Temple, since its available and will be done sooner.

1475BC - turn 1
Move elite Archer to attack reg Roman warrior next turn.
Mover worker to cow, it'll mine rather than irrigate.
Reg Warrior kills barb, no promotion.

IT
Leptis Magna Settler -> Rax

1450BC - turn 2
Elite Archer vs reg Roman Warrior, Archer redlines before even hurting the Warrior, but wins..! :eek:
Rome sends another Warrior.

IT
Cartage Archer -> Archer

1425BC - turn 3
Troop movement, settler is on its way to the Oyster spot.

IT
Zzzz

1400BC - turn 4
Change Uica back to Pyramids since we lack 1 shield to complete in and no MM is going to get that shield, so rather than lose so many we'd better off building the Pyramids.
Move up the science slider for 1 turn, Utica will grow next turn and will need that lux.

IT
Roman Warrior fortifies on a mountain.

1375BC - turn 5
It seems I'm mistaken, the new citzen is neutral, good! :)
Found Hippo, it starts a Rax
We now have 5 cities. :thumbsup:

IT
Carthage Archer -> Archer

1350BC - turn 6
Rome sends in a settler pair, the guard is a Spear.

IT
Zzz

1325BC - turn 7
Move troops, worker irrigates plains near Hippo.
Cathage grows, lux to 20%.

IT
Barb Horseman comes to take a look too.


1300BC - turn 8
Try to train a vet Archer on a barb warrior, he wins 3/4 but no promotion.
Rome is willing to talk, but wil not accept straight peace.

IT
A Roman warrior attacks our 3/4 Archer and kills him. :( He's now 2/4 under the nose of our Elite Archer.

1275BC - turn 9
Our Elite kills the warrior.
Science slider back to 50%, Lit due in 3 turns.

IT
Roman reg Archer shows up.

1250BC - turn 10
Our wounded troops group to heal.

Looking good! :yeah:

Do you folks think that we are strong enough to raze Antium and go disconnect Rome's Iron?
Keeping our Elite archers waiting for the trickle of roman units is a good idea, but if Legionaries start appearing...

And -should we switch Pyramids to Great Library as soon as available? That would mean 50% more cpt, and earlier, but we definitely risk loosing Pyramids.

[...] Do you folks think that we are strong enough to raze Antium and go disconnect Rome's Iron?
Keeping our Elite archers waiting for the trickle of roman units is a good idea, but if Legionaries start appearing... [...]


Actually, I don't think that we are that strong yet, but we should do it anyway, so maybe get some more units out and then go for it.

Looks good.

As for losing the pyramids - is it about the granaries or the culture? The granaries aren't as important, IMHO.

I was referring to the culture.
We have Colossus, and the Great Library should be coming. I think that we can get the Hanging Gardens later on. If we don't get a great leader, it will be hard to build also Pyramids and Oracle.

So, if we have to choose and sacrifice a wonder, I'd vote for Pyramids.
On the other hand, if we manage to build them and kill the cascade... but we need to know what techs are out among the other civs.

Disconnecting Rome's Iron may be a real problem. The only visible source is next to Rome. However, I recall from the original game that the city they built on the west coast was built over a source of Iron. When I looked at Rome about 15 turns ago it had a Spearman and a Legionary. By now it probably has more. Our Archers are not going to last long against Legions. The only chance we would have IMHO is to build Numidian Mercenaries which have a chance of surviving attacks from the Legions.

I think we have to attack in order to survive but we have to attack in force and try to lure the Romans into a battlefield that is favorable to us. That was the whole strategy in Mutton Valley. Either you fortified on the high ground and let the Persians dash themselves to death or you attacked from the high ground and killed them on the plains. But that task was easier because the Immortal only has a defense of 2. Archers could beat them. Archers aren't going to be nearly as successful against Legions.

IMHO we should suspend any further building (except in Utica) and produce as many Numidians as we can. Fortify whatever units we now have on the southern edge of the mountains to deny the Romans access to the mountains and get NMs to those mountains ASAP. We should try to deny the Legions access to the mountains. A Legion on a mountain is going to be invincible. Force them into Mutton Valley and attack them from the mountains and hills. It will take a lot of Archers/NM to do this so we should start early.

I don't think we should try to build culture and units at the same time. We only have 5 cities and can't crank out many units. I know this goes against the building strategy for a 20K win, but what good does it do to pursue the standard strategy if a stack of 5 Legions arrives and we have no way to defeat it. Even now we may have waited too long.

I guess another strategy could be to send a stack of units straight to the Iron outside Rome, disconnect it and hope the AI doesn't reconnect it. We could get lucky and have that be their only source of Iron. That would be a faster fix, assuming our units survived to reach the Iron. We could then wait until Knights arrived to further attack Rome.

I agree, but the current buildings being build are Raxes. It's a difficult choice between more regs now or more vets later. Remember that using Mercs will cause our GA to start, but maybe that's unavoidable at this point.

I think Zagnut is right. Besides, we don't really need culture (except in Utica, of course).

A golden age in the AA now may not be so bad, in the end: it *may* just give us the edge that we need for an extra AA wonder, and that would mean a lot of turns off the final date.

An early GA is a good thing in a 20K game I think. We also need to generate leaders.
Since we are confined to slow units it may be worthwhile building a few cats which are useful in defense and attack - in effect getting two shots per turn. I don't think we should build a lot of UU's. Two or three is enough. The archers should do the attacking and the UUs defending, since the shield cost for the attack strength favours archers and has been discussed before.

We really must take out Rome. There is no sense in doing anything else. Also we should not overestimate the ability of the Romans to defend. 4 or 5 archers, 2 Numids and 3 cats would be sufficient IMO.

In short, I agree with zagnut, except that we should not muck around with Rome. Kill Rome, grab the iron. If they have iron elsewhere, then take that too.

In short, I agree with zagnut, except that we should not muck around with Rome. Kill Rome, grab the iron. If they have iron elsewhere, then take that too.
I like that aggressive approach. Barracks first, then the units. Charge!!!!!

No need for me to add any more - Zagnut summed the tactical situation up very nicely! :thumbsup:

BTW If my turn rolls-around in the next week, skip me. :)

BTW If my turn rolls-around in the next week, skip me. :)
Looks like you are up Karasu.

Oh, my. Is it already next week? :ack:
Ok, I'll see what I can do.

Sorry, I won't be able to play for a few days.
Everything should be ok before the next week end, but please skip me if anyone can take it.

OK. I'll take the save and play today. I have some time I think. :eek:

1250BC: Pre-turn
Raise lux to 30% to prevent riot in Carthage
Hit Space. :hammer:

IBT:
Carthage Archer - Hmmm... Numid

1225BC:
Leave archer in Carthage so I can turn lux down again.

IBT:
Learn Literature - Research Map making.

1200BC:
elite archer kills roman warrior.

1175BC:
Nothing happened.

IBT:
Carthage Numid - Numid

1150BC:
Reduce lux again and increase science.

1125BC:
Elite archer kills archer.
Archer from Carthage loses vs spear so..
Swap numid build to archer. No sense triggering GA for no good reason.
tax goes up again.

1100BC:
Quiet.

IBT:
Barb horses promote an archer to elite.
Roman archer attacks our archer on mountain and loses.

Theveste rax - archer

1075BC:
Quiet.

1050BC:
Quiet
IBT:
Carthage Numid - Numid

1025BC:
Quiet

IBT:
Barb horse redlines archer.

1000BC:
Kill Roman spear with archer.

Seem to have got the turns mucked up somehow. I played all these in about half the time it took for one turn in KA01. :p

Carthage should probably eject a worker after the next Numid. He can join Utica which would knock a couple of turns off the Pyramids. We could then try for the pyramids, then pop rush a temple and then trigger our GA for the GL. We need to establish an ivory colony I suspect. Not sure how to go about it as they are destroyed by the AI settling towns near them of course.

Haven't seen a Roman Legion yet. But it is only a matter of time.

I do have a screenshot to post... but now is not the most appropriate time. ;)

How many Archers and Numids do we have and how many should we have to start our attack on the Romans?

[...] He can join Utica which would knock a couple of turns off the Pyramids. We could then try for the pyramids, [...]

You've lost me. ;) Any significance in the capital letter?

You've got us up the chart a bit. :thumbsup:

:blush: typo..

What I meant was we should abandon the attempt to get the pyramids ... because of the obvious cascade to the Library. Instead we should switch to the Library, and then try for the Lighthouse (which we can switch to HG if we fail).

Hi, there. I can take it now if it is ok with everyone :D

IIRC we have 3 Numids and 4 or 5 archers, two of which are elite. Carthage and Utica need MP's though. I don't think we need more than 2 or 3 Numids in the stack, but really we could do with a couple of cats. This would mean researching maths after MM, but we need CB too for temples and the faint possibility of getting the Oracle through a leader.

Decisions, Decisions.

Hi, there. I can take it now if it is ok with everyone :D

Finally through milking gotm35? :mischief:

Ok.

Building a few cats would take several turns -at least 4 (MM) +8 to Mathematics. Is it worth going for that, or should we test the roman defences without cats with an earlier assault? Maybe with a couple more Archers and one more Numid.

We may indeed prefer Mysticism. I would like to give a go at the Oracle: it is a relatively cheap wonder, and if the GL doesn't start a cascade we can still make it.

Connecting the Ivory will require sending a Numid there, as barbs do destroy colonies. It will take some time, but we can send the second worker there (the first one will go to increase Utica's pop).
I would do that, and if anyone tries to place a city over there... :devil2:

BTW, have you ever seen elephants roaming icy tundra regions? :hmm:

Finally through milking gotm35? :mischief:
Oh, dear... don't even mention that ;)
It was a nightmare -I was not born for milking, I'm afraid.
Still, it's nice to try different approaches, so there may be more milked games in my future -2027 sounds about right, I think :D

[...]BTW, have you ever seen elephants roaming icy tundra regions? :hmm:[...]

Not since the mammoths. :)

Oh, and you actually saw them... :hmm: :mischief:

Of course. :)

Building a few cats would take several turns -at least 4 (MM) +8 to Mathematics. Is it worth going for that, or should we test the roman defences without cats with an earlier assault? Maybe with a couple more Archers and one more Numid.
I don't think we should wait for cats. Take them on now.

I don't think we should wait for cats. Take them on now.

Yes! :ar15:
I will put together as many Archers as possible in the next turns, then off we go!

In the meantime, I will try to get a Galley out of one of our two coastal cities.
I will probably start researching Maths anyway, as we won't be able to discover Republic before our Golden Age in any case.
As soon as the GL is built, I'll get a temple and start a prebuild.

Pre-Turn
Rename our Archers.

Press Enter.
A Roman Archer appears marching towards our stack. No legions yet.

Turn 1 - 975 BC
The woker at Hippo finishes improving. It would be nice to have a road south, but probably not the best idea right now.
I send the worker towards Theveste to build some improvements and start working for the Ivory.
A couple of archers start marching to reach the big (...) stack

Switch production in Utica to Great Library (before I forget...).

IT
Rome will talk, but won't accept straight peace (neither will we, not before getting a GL at least)

Carthage: Numidian - Worker
Theveste: Archer - Warrior (for MP and barb protection, so that the Archer can go south).
Hippo: Barracks - Archer

Turn 2 - 950 BC
Kill a barb horse with vet Archer - no promotion
Kill roman archer with Elite Mad-Bax - no leader

IT
Discover MapMaking. Start Mathematics at 70%, due in 9.
Carthage: Worker - Worker

Turn 3 - 925 BC
Kill one more barbarian horseman, no promotion.
Switch Leptis Magna to Galley.
Two workers are about to reach Theveste, one more is in Utica. A last one is being built in Carthage.

IT
Carthage: Worker - Numidian

Turn 4 - 900 BC
Mad-Bax wins his second in a row, but no leader
Join worker to Utica, reaching pop 8 and cutting one turn off completion of the great library

IT

Turn 5 - 875 BC
Move troops south. It's slow...

Join another worker to Utica. Have to increase lux to 20% to avoid a riot, but we shave off one more turn.

IT
More roman archers approach

Turn 6 - 850 BC
Veteran AlanH kills roman archer. No promotion.
Send a reg warrior to protect him.

IT
Roman archer kills the protecting warrior (Antium is connected by road now).
Carthage: Numidian - Worker

Turn 7 - 825 BC
Send Numidian to Utica and decrease luxury rate.
Workers are roading towards Ivory.

IT
More roman archers arrive
Carthage: Worker - Archer
Leptis: Galley - Archer
Hippo: Archer - Archer

Turn 8 - 800 BC
Our proud Galley sets sail into the unknown... with the brakes on -I had forgotten the differential movement :eek:
There are two pairs of roman archers around Antium. I move our units west to avoid being exposed to their counterattack. Let's see what they do.

IT
Our galley easily sinks a barb ship.

Turn 9 - 775 BC
Elite AlanH kills roman archer without a scratch. No leader, though.
Elite Mad-Bax kills his third foe. No leader.
Veteran Karasu makes his kill and promotes to Elite. Well done, lad ;)
Veteran Space kills her adversary, but no promotion... :rolleyes:
Veteran Ainwood reaches the operation area, ready to take his share of the glory.

Our galley sinks another barb ship, but doesn't promote

IT
Veteran Zagnut successfully defends against a roman archer and promotes to Elite! :goodjob:
Our galley sinks the third barb ship and promotes too.

Carthage and Theveste: Archer - Archer

The Viking city of Nidaros completes Pyramids -they would have beaten us by one turn!

Turn 10 - 750 BC
Move galley and the last archer (Aeson ;) ).

Notes
All the Archer builds can (and probably should) be changed to improvements, catapults or workers.
The GL is due next turn, as is Mathematics.
The last reinforcements have just arrived, and I have left the now larger stack where I found it. The Numidian Mercenaries are one step behind: I didn't want to start our GA yet, which is also why I had to rely on Zagnut once I was forced to take an attack.
Here is a screenshot

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGS750BC.jpg

Looking good! But ... I want that promotion too... :sad: .... :cry:
;)

Lazy girl, if you want the promotion you have to study... ehm... fight hard! :p :lol:
Then again, I didn't want to kill you for a simple promotion!

And -any bets on who of "us" is going to give us the first leader?

Nice job, Karasu. You took out a lot of Roman units and only lost one unit. I don't know about you but I feel extra protective of our units now they have personal names.

It looks as if Antium is the first target. What is the team's thought about where we should go after that is destroyed? Should we head right for Rome and the source of Iron or try to take out the 2 towns on the west coast?

Irrational as it may be, I have the same feeling.

I am not really sure about attacking Antium.
I have checked the terrain they founded the other cities on, and there is no Iron underneath. So their only source appears to be the one next to Rome. With two Numid Mercenaries protecting our stack, we can almost certainly reach it (the Golden Age is more or less unavoidable as soon as our stack moves within attacking range of their archers).
If Caesar hasn't got Legions, we may be better off going straight for their iron and getting back to Antium on the way back; at that point, we would be in position to attack Rome with our forces intact: if they only have Spearmen, 7-8 archers might make it.

On the other hand, if we loose there we are left more or less without an army.
And Antium is just along the way...

It will take 6 turns to consolidate our forces and go straight to the Iron. That is if we don't meet any Roman units along the way which is unlikely. Therefore, figure it takes 10 turns to get there and we lose two units. How many does that then leave us? It will be enough to disconnect the Iron, but we really need to destroy Rome (the capital) to really hurt them. If we have enough troops I would be in favor of going straight for Rome and then attack the other two size 1 Roman cities on our retreat.

At some point I think we should erect a wall of fortresses in the mountains to protect us in the future from the Romans and any other civs that settle in the south. Unless, of course, the decision is to disband Carthage and found another city in the south.

We have eight Archers near Antium, one warrior and two Numidian Mercenaries.
One more Archer can be sent down from Hippo in four turns.
But in 6-10 turns I wouldn't bet anything on Rome not having Legionaries.

They were ready to talk peace, so we could raze their two size 1 cities and hopefully get techs, cities or cash out of the new deal.
In this case we may only send the Numidians to Rome and use the Archers to disconnect their Iron (which I would do in any case).

If we also happen to have horses nearby (and we should either research or trade for The Wheel), we could attack Rome later on with the remaining Archers and some horsemen.

Regarding the mountains, I would rather eliminate Rome altogether than set up a defensive wall... :D

I would kill Rome, and build a road to the iron. We can take their 1 pop cities in the peace deal and build the FP. We need iron for knights remember.

I would kill Rome, and build a road to the iron. We can take their 1 pop cities in the peace deal and build the FP. We need iron for knights remember.
I think you have identified the crucial issue. We need Iron for Knights. Therefore, we have to have a city next to the Iron. Therefore, we have to eliminate the Roman capital.

I have been concerned about our ability to defend a southern city later in the game. But we have to build it to get access to the Iron.

We can only have 5 cities, so even if we eliminate all of the Roman cities the other civs will eventually fill in the empty areas. We are probably better off leaving some Roman cities in the far south. How can we arrange our cities so that the Iron city is not cut off from our core by another civ or civs? Maybe Hippo should be relocated to the Mutton Valley, Carthage eliminated and the southern city located in the forest south of Antium. In that way I think all of our cities could be connected and other civs couldn't build in the area south of the mountains.

[...]We can only have 5 cities, so even if we eliminate all of the Roman cities the other civs will eventually fill in the empty areas. We are probably better off leaving some Roman cities in the far south. [...]

The big difference is that the cities of the other AI will be non-core cities, so will make easy pickings. :evil:

I will be off this weekend. Nothing dramatic should happen this time other than my being unable to access the web... :eek:

I think I am up, because Mad and Karasu switched positions. Is that correct?

I hope its correct because I have taken the game. I started the first turn and came up against a question that I would like to put to the team.

We got the Great Library on the first turn. Next turn we will, hopefully, get some techs that we bypassed. I would think we would get the Wheel as a minimum. I would like to make peace with the Romans after this turn and take as many of their techs as possible. They have the Wheel, Mysticism and COL. We can get them all if we trade our techs. I would also give them ROP. That would allow us to move our SOD to the Iron. We could then re-declare war.

This would only be practical, IMHO, if we intended to eliminate Rome so that we don't take the reputation hit. This may be difficult if they start producing Legions. So far no Legions have shown up. Do you want to give them a ROP and then try to eliminate them? In the alternative we can just continue at war with them, head straight for the Iron, capture Rome and then take out the 2 size one cities up north.

Zagnut, do we have contact with other civs yet? If not, we won't get any techs until we've met them. I never use RoP rape in my solo games, but it's a personal restriction, so if all of you guys feel differently about this, we should do it anyway.

We do not have any other contacts yet. We should have some soon as our Galley is getting close to taking a shot at a suicide run. I forgot when I made my last post that we have to meet other civs before we get techs from the GL.

I don't use ROP rape in my solo games either. But I note that others on our team (who will remain unnamed) have used the evil exploit. The other teams have also used it. Therefore, I would like to get team approval before doing it.

Take game and MM Carthage and Utica to give Utica some more food.

IT - Discover Mathematics and build the Great Library. The Romans cascade to the Oracle.

730 - Turn 1 - Decide to research Philosophy. Start Temple in Utica.

A Roman Archer shows up. Also 2 Spearman arrive near Antium from the south. Elite AlanH kills Archer. Consolidate troops for the move south to Rome.

IT - Barb Galley attacks our Galley and loses. One of the 2 Roman Spearman moves into Antium so that it now has at least 2 Spearman defending. The other fortifies on the hill next to Antium.

710 - Turn 2 - All troops are now consolidated into a SOD. 8 Archers, 1 Warrior and 2 NM.

Advance Warrior toward Ivory and reveal a barb Horsemen on the next square. Retreat the 2 Workers along the road.

IT - 2 Roman Spearman advance on our SOD. Barb Horseman does not attack our Warrior.

690 - Turn 3 - Decide to forgo ROP with Rome. Our Galley is getting close to a suicide run and if it is successful we couldn’t defeat Rome before meeting other civs.

Zagnut defeats one Spearman but is redlined. Ignore the second Spearman as he is in the jungle. He can roam to the north without any danger of doing harm until he reaches Hippo. Warrior in north attacks Horseman and dies.

IT - Landscape the Palace. Persia completes the Great Lighthouse.

670 - Turn 4 - Archer destroys barb village in north and promotes to elite. Utica grows to 10. Increase lux to 20%.

IT - Utica builds Temple. Start Palace prebuild.

650 - Turn 5 - Mad-Bax attacks Roman Warrior in the jungle and defeats him. However, a Roman Archer is revealed on the next square. He may attack next turn and trigger our GA.

IT - Barb Horseman attacks Archer up north and loses. The Roman Archer does not attack. A Legion shows up to challenge our SOD.

630 - Turn 6 - The Legion is in the jungle and so is our SOD. If our Elite Archer attacks the odds of winning are 46 to 54. If the NM fortifies and the Legion attacks us the odds are 66% in our favor. I decide not to fortify as we would then lose a turn advancing on the Iron. I decide to attack the Legion. Karasu, one of our wisest warriors, fires his arrows quickly, but the Legion avoids them and quickly closes the gap between them. Karasu is hit 3 times before he can pull his dagger and return the fight to the Legion. But then it is an even fight and Karasu finally sinks the dagger deep into the heart of the Legion. Karasu staggers back, red lines of blood, flowing down his tunic. But he is victorious. Hail, Karasu.

Ainwood attacks the Roman Archer and defeats him. The SOD advances within one square of the Iron.

Meanwhile, our Galley takes off across the ocean squares. But there is no safe passage to the other side and it ends on a sea square, one short of the coast. However, it does see the Persian city of Antioch. He has Mysticism, Wheel and COL. Fortunately, that is the same as Rome. Therefore, we should get all three next turn. Persia has 6 cities.

IT - The GL gives us Mysticism, Wheel, COL, Horseback Riding. Our Galley is lost. A Legion moves onto the Iron. Now that is bad.

610 - Turn 7 - The attack odds are 37/63. If I fortify the NM and the Legion attacks the odds are in our favor 34/66. However, what if the Legion doesn’t attack and fortifies on the hill his chance of surviving an attack increases to 70%. Or what if I attack and lose and he promotes to Veteran. Now his odds of survival go up to 80%. I decide to use our lone Warrior as bait. I leave him on the jungle square next to the Iron and move the SOD to an adjacent jungle square. I am hoping the Legion will attack the Warrior next turn and I will then be able to get the SOD onto the Iron hill. Rome is defended by at least one Legion. It is down to size 6.

IT - The Legion takes the bait and kills the Warrior. We discover Philosophy.

590 - Turn 8 - Archer kills the Spearman who headed north on a pillaging expedition. The SOD moves onto the Iron hill. Archer kills Roman Archer.

The Palace prebuild in Utica is going nowhere as we don’t have the ability to build any other Wonders. It is 2 turns away from Library. Therefore, I switch it to Library. Research Polytheism. Perhaps we can get Monarchy and start another prebuild for the Hanging Gardens.

IT - Legion kills an Archer.

570 - Turn 9 - Aeson pillages Iron. The other 6 units in the SOD move to grassland in order not to be attacking across a river.

IT - Nothing much.

550 - Turn 10 - Take a deep breath and attack Rome. Unfortunately, it is defended by at least 2 Legions, possibly three, and an Archer. They defeat 3 Archers without much trouble. I retreat one Archer and the NM to the hill. No way we are going to be able to capture Rome at this time.

Tough luck! The Oracle was really bad news.
And I risked my life without being able to give us a great leader... ;)

How do we proceed now?

War: should we retreat or stay close to Rome? I would favour the second option right now, if only to prevent them from using that Iron. Without Iron they can run out of Legions, and remain vulnerable to an attack from our highly skilled archers.
In the meantime, more archers can arrive from the north and attack Antium and Pisae.

Btw, are there any connectable horses in our lands?

This however would mean almost certainly a GA for us. At a time when we have no wonders to build!
From this point of view, trying to reach Monarchy as quickly as possible is probably the best idea -Hanging Gardens, plus the chance of Monarchy for the golden age.
At this point, I would not disregard the Great Wall (after HG, of course).
Or should we try to go for Republic?

Does Persia have any contacts?

Btw, are there any connectable horses in our lands?


No, the game was designed for India and the use of elephants. :)

I think we need to keep Rome disconneted for a while, this means prelonged war to keep the workers at home. I agree that we should beeline to Monarchy for the HG. Is Rome in its GA right now? All the more important to keep the Iron disconnected.

Too bad about the Oracle indeed, if a Great Leader spawns around this time we should create an Army, but what to fill it with? Archers? :cringe: Num.Merc.s?

Rome should be in their GA. A Legion defeated 2 of our units.

Persia has no contacts showing. I thought we were playing with modded rules in this game and couldn't trade contacts until Printing Press.

Am I up? Or do you want to play, Ainwood? What *is* the roster BTW? I had to check all the posts to see how long ago it was that everybody played. :rolleyes:

Our original turn sequence for this game was zagnut, Space, ainwood, Karasu and Mad.

OK, thx Zagnut, I'll play then. :)

Any thoughts on what to do if a leader should appear within the next few turns? An Archer Army?

I'll be going for Monarchy, tech wise and start a pre-build for the Hanging Gardens.

Everybody OK with hanging around Rome until more troops come south?

I guess an Archer Army is the only alternative since we don't have any Wonders to build. I would build another Galley on the west coast and see if it can get across to the other side.

I am okay with hanging around Rome. Remember they have at least 2 Legions and possibly 3 in Rome and one elite unit just to the east.

In terms of a long-term goal, saving the leader for the next wonder may be a better use. We're not going to be rushing off to war overseas too soon, are we? Although an army will give us the heroic epic to build!

In terms of a long-term goal, saving the leader for the next wonder may be a better use. We're not going to be rushing off to war overseas too soon, are we? Although an army will give us the heroic epic to build!

That would be the main reason. On the long-term an Archer Army is totally useless.

pre-turn:
MM Carthage to get the Archer next turn. Utica doesn't need shields since the box is full already.
Science to 70% to gain a turn on Poly.
Press enter.

IT:
Utica Lib -> Palace
Theveste Galley -> Archer

turn 1: 530 BC
I have to up lux to 20% to keep the Theveste from rioting.
I decide to keep science where it is for 8 gpt deficit.
I'll use the pillaging stack to work a bit more on Rome and forgo attacking the Archers, I'll leave them to the Elites healing out of Roman territory.
The stack-ette with the Cat moves to Pisae.

IT:
A barb Horse attacks and dies.

turn 2: 510 BC
Built a colony on the Ivory, but it's not enough to allow the lux slider to be relaxed.
Pillage Rome's wheat mine.

IT:
Leptis Magna Temple -> Archer
Carthage Archer -> Archer
Hippo Archer -> Archer

turn 3: 490 BC
The science slider has to come down, Poly in 5.
Zagnut senses the weakness in the 3/5 Roman Legion and bravely attacks. He manages to hurt the Legion badly... and wins. Zagnut is badly hurt so Ainwood rushes to cover him, ordering Karasu to stay behind and rest some more.
The stack-ette has reached Pisea.
Moving to the next tile to pillage, Space and Aeson meet a regular Legion, luckily they're in time to hide behind their Mercs. ;)
The workers start roading the forests, we need gold!

IT:
A Roman Archer kills one of the two Archers covering the 'pult.

turn 4: 470 BC
The reg Legion moves to defend Pisae, so Space and Aeson get from the hiding place and pillage another mine.

IT:
A barb Horse attacks 2 vet Archers, it get killed no promotions.
Rome moves Archer into Pisae.
Carthage Archer -> Archer
Theveste Archer -> Archer

turn 5: 450 BC
I decide to retreat the stack since I want Rome's units going to our Elite units.
Space attacks an Archer, who on the mine to be pillaged next. She take a hit in the shoulder, but manages to kill the Archer with ne of her last arrows. Of course this is not enough for a promotion. :rolleyes:
Poly in 3, no deficit.

IT:
Rome lands a Legion next to Leptis Magna.

turn 6: 430 BC
The Elite Archer on his way south is in the neighbourhood to kill the reg Legion!
Ainwood kills a Roman Archer hiding in the woods. Fully recovered Karasu carries Zagnut, who's showing signs of recovery. Ainwood isn't promted either.
Persia suddenly got some decent money, sell him Philo for 185g. I figured selling Lit would inflate the tech rate, which we don't want just yet.
This make him polite.

IT:
Hmm, Persia lands a settler pair next to our colony.
Leptis Magna Archer -> Archer
Carthage Archer -> Archer

turn 7: 410 BC
We will lose our colony when Persia settles so, declare Persia and attack the guarding reg spear with the Archer on the colony. He manages to redline the spear but dies in battle.
Two Archer move to attack again.
Karasu kills another Archer, and gets away without a scratch.

IT:
A miracle, the settler does settle! So we get to keep our Ivory for another turn.
Poly comes in, start Monarchy at a deficit.

turn 8: 390 BC
The troops kill another Archer.
Micromanage Utica a bit to ensure the Palace pre-build will not finish before we research Monarchy. :eek:
Argggh, Space misses the bus and is stranded, no troops are in the neighbourhood yet, fingers crossed.

IT:
A Roman Legion turns up, kills Space and is promoted to vet. Maybe I should call it a night, I suddenly don't feel too good. :voodoo:

turn 9: 370 BC
Aeson is in rage and attacks an Archer. Elas, he is killed too. The mercs park themselves on the Iron hill.
Our nameless Elite kills the Persian spear, and is awarded 2 slaves. Our colony is intact.
A Roman Galley carelessly gets in range of our 'pult... it's 2/3 now.

IT:
More Roman Archers move in, Galley stays within range. :)

turn 10: 350 BC
The Galley is now 1/3.
Karasu attacks another Archer and is victorious again. Ainwood goes for that promotion, he fought bravely but left his life on the battlefield.

On this sad note I leave this game to the next better player. We are running at a deficit, at which Monarchy should ber ready in 11 turns, as will the Palace in Utica. So don't forget to 'tune' Utica too, if adjustment is needed.

Can I play? I mean, I'm dead just now, aren't I? :lol:

Ok - we got a leader, and we've got construction! :D I am thinking of building the Great Wall in Utica (3 turns away), then saving the leader for the HG when we get to monarchy. Thoughts?

You are up now anyway, ainwood. Work a miracle for us. We need it. Rome is proving to be a tougher nut than we thought.

As Found:

All looks good. I notice that two of our archers will probably get smoked next turn, one of which has a move point left. I retreat it.

Turn 1:
IT: We do lose one archer :(
Get construction from the GL. Can now get the great wall in 3 if we so choose....

Attack a stack of three archers. One of ours loses two HP, the second three HP. The third attack is an elite, and he gets us a leader!
Mining a grassland in Theveste will reduce turns/archer by 1 (and reduce waste as well), So I send the units there. Ditto for Hippo.
Take down another archer without so much as a scratch. Obviously the general thought this was too easy, as they don't recognise it as promotion-worthy.


Turn 2:
IT:
Rome mobilizes a legion from Rome and a few more archers. We lost our new leader-archer, although he reduces his attacker to 1 HP.
Deal to two more archers, and get another promotion. Immediate area now clear, although 3 more seen in jungles of Antium - I can now see 9 archers and a legion on the offensive...

Turn 3:
IT: Legion decides to attack our Merc, and we win. Here comes our GA! :eek:

Monarchy and Palace now in 6. 3 of our cities are now productin archers every two turns, whilst the other is every 3, and should drop to 2 when we finish mining.
This crystalises the decision. Finish the GW, then slip a colloseum in before monarchy. GW next turn, and at 18 SPT we will have 90 when we get to monarchy, so we will delay the HG by two turns, but get the GW and a colosseum in the interim. In the meantime, I will try an heal all elites, skirmish and try to get vets promoted.

Turn 4:
IT: Finish GW, start colosseum.

Vet redlines eradicating another reg. archer.
Second one wins without a scratch and without a promotion.
Destroy a third archer to stop it attacking us, but use an elite victory on it.

Turn 5:
IT: Persians land a settler on our shores - they will talk peace.
We lose an archer.

Our archer beat persian spear, and we have two more slaves! :evil:
Theveste now up to one archer every two turns.
Destroy an archer. 4 more will be in-range next turn....
MM Utica to reduce colosseum by a turn - due in 5, monarchy in 4. Reduce science by 10% - still monarchy in 4, but save 8 GPT.

Turn 6:
IT:
We lose an archer, but I dispatch 4 more. We get one promotion, but it will possibly die next turn... In fact, we will probably lose two more archers next-up. Oh for a unit that can retreat!
Rome is bringing spearman forward to attack!

Rome will actually give us 3 cities and a worker for peace! Hispalis, Pisae and Pompeii. Strangely, they won't give up antium (on its own) at size 1, whereas Pompeii (at last map trade) was size 2.


Turn 7:
IT- we lose two archers, but each fights off one archer before it dies.
Get a promotion in dispatching a spear and two archers (no loses). Nothing the next square back either, so these can retreat.

Turn 8:
Retreat some archers - legion and spear will move into range next turn. Reduce tax, as we get monarch next turn.
Its just now that I noteice that I don't have the right resources.pcx, and so I can't see oysters and sheep :blush:


Turn 9:
We finish Monarchy, but I hold-off a revolt just yet - want to finish colo, start HG then rush it first.
Start currency.

Lose two archers beating a legion. Redline another on an archer, and lose + yellow on beating another archer.

Turn 10:
IT: Get a promotion when a barb horse dies attacking archer guarding 3 workers in mutton valley.
Complete colosseum, and start the HG, but HAVEN'T RUSHED IT YET! Leader is there, so the next player can rush it, or leave it to build (15 turns) and make an army instead. I vote for rushing, but someone else can decide that! Colosseum allows taxes to be reduced by 10%, which is worth 7 GPT to us.

Take out a barb camp.
Retreat some archers.


OK - I think we're in reasonable shape. We have about 17 archers fully-fit near the front lines, and another 3 or 4 that need a bit of healing. I have been holding-off rushing into Roman territory to attack, because every time we put an archer into open territory, it dies in a counterattack! However, the flood is now a steady trickle, and I think we're ready to go back on the offensive.

Utica is now making 21 CPT, with golden-age shields of (net) 21 / turn. I vote that we rush the HG there, but then we need something else to build. Perhaps making peace with Persia, gifting it into the middle ages then hoping that it gets Monotheism so that we can build a cathedral? They are only missing literature and monarchy, so if they are researching currency, they're almost in the middle-ages anyway. Should we wait and see, and then can maybe offer-up lit and monarchy for there freebee? Finishing currency and gifting it should mean we still have monarchy and lit to give them anyway for their freebee.

The other thing that we may want to plan for is the FP. We will need 8 cities to start it, so we either build and disband 3, or we capture a few roman ones all on the same turn. I'm not confident that we can capture 3 on one turn, and the closest ones (antium and Pisae) will all auto-raze. BUT: Rome will give-up three in a peace deal. Perhaps we should seriously consider taking those, starting the FP then abandoning them (to keep in the 5CC limit)??

The only other point is when should we go to monarchy? I think we should wait until the GA is finished - still 13 turns away. In that time we should almost get the FP finished in Utica, and we may even have Republic as an option.

Suggested next few turns:
0.) Rush HG in Utica. Peace with Persia? What good is it being at war with them?

1.) Move stack to attack Antium. Complete HG.
2.) Take Antium. Negotiate peace with Rome, get three cities. Start FP in Utica.

Great turns, and I agree with the strategy. My only worry is that we will have no-one to be at war with for twenty turns. It is a pity we can't wait till navigation to make peace with Rome. We really need to give ourselves every leader chance we can as the early middle ages contain a whole group of very important wonders. Is there an alternative in not building the FP for now but pre-building another wonder like Sun Tzu, or Leos or Sistines and then using our anarchy period to go for another leader, then having got the leader make peace with Rome and start the FP?

Just a suggestion.

I'm quite happy with that. We only have minimal corruption anyway, so the FP was mainly for the culture. We've got a lot of archers massed, and Rome is on the back-foot, so tactically its a good time to press-home the advantage, and the leader aspect is just as important.

Don't see the point in being at war with persia though - we might as well be trading with them to try and hurry things along a bit - remember, they're the ones with the GL!

:thumbsup: Ainwood!

I have no problem with peace with Persia, I only started that war to prevent them from settling near our Ivory.

:yeah: :goodjob:

I agree with rushing HG and prebuilding for anything that may come up next. If I am up or something like that, I'll be able to pick (and hopefully play) between tomorrow and Saturday.

Just for the discussion -how about making peace with Rome for the cities, start the FP, abandon the cities and attack Rome again? Do we really need a rep? :evil:

PS. Chez An has some really good fish. Nice suggestion, Space, thanx! :)
I actually had dinner twice, first there and then at the Mexicaanse on the Koningin Wilhelmina Boulevard. Oh, and I slept at the Huis ter Duin (a mistake made by the estec hotel reservation service -my boss was furious, but he could do nothing about that :D ).
More on this in the next edition... :D

[...] Oh, and I slept at the Huis ter Duin [...]

:cooool: Well done! :lol:

We started the war with Persia to prevent them from settling in the Ivory. If we make peace with them now they will probably try again. Do they have the Lighthouse? Is that how they safely got across or is there another passage that allows non-Lighthouse Galleys to make the trip? In any event, I think we should do something to protect the Ivory. Perhaps station some units around the coast to block entry. Foreign units could land further south and try to go across land but that would give us more time to destroy them.

Let's not forget that we want to secure the source of Iron outside Rome. IMHO it would be better to take a huge stack of Archers and NMs to Rome and capture it before making peace with them.

I also have a dumb question. If we do get 3 cities in peace negotiations with the Romans can we start to build the FP the same turn. I have a dim memory that once you get the magic number of cities it is not until the next turn that you can build the FP. Since we can't end a turn with more than 5 cities, is it possible to get 3 more from Rome, destroy them at the end of the turn and still be able to build the FP on the next turn? Or I could be completely wrong on this. If so, be gentle with me.

I'm pretty sure that you can build the FP the same turn - same as when you start building a wonder in one city, it gets greyed-out in another the same turn.

I'm fairly suire that the persians must have the GL, because they have galleys in the sea! Note that they tried landing more settlers during wartime as well - I'm just worried that they'll start with units next. :( I'd hate to see immortals landing next to our cities!

They do have the Great Lighthouse, F7 says so. :)

:bump:

Who's up?

I hope it's not me... I can't play till Tuesday :(

Looked it up, and according to the original sequence and Zagnut, it's Karasu.

Karasu - Up now
MB - will play tuesday ;)
Zagnut
Space
Ainwood - just played

Yes, I have it. I could not connect nor play yesterday. I'll try to mess it all up as soon as I can... ;)

Pre-Turn
Xerxes wants Literature for peace. Hmm... let me think about it...
Hamilcar rushes the Hanging Gardens in Utica.

Press Enter

Our Ivory colony survives a barbarian attack
Utica starts Palace as a prebuild for... ehm... something
Spot persian galleys around our coast.

Turn 1 - 130 BC
Three Elite victories this turn and one vet archer lost. No promotions, no leaders.
Ok, we take peace and 202 gold pieces from Xerxes for Literature.

IT
Roman archers move north, persian galley goes back

Turn 2 - 110 BC
We destroy Pisae and Antium, loosing three Archers -three more elite wins, no leader.

Turn 3 - 90 BC
Hippo starts a Library
Rome would give us Hispalis, Ravenna, Pompeii and a Worker for peace.
I am tempted to take it, but I am not sure of what we think of our reputation (our Numidians would have to leave their Iron) so I decide to leave things as they are. The FP would not be completed next turn anyway.
Switch Leptis and Theveste to Aqueduct.

IT
Roman Archer attacks Elite Mad, but is beaten

Turn 4 - 70 BC
Regroup our units and keep on advancing southwards.

IT
Loose a suicide Galley

Turn 5 - 50 BC
Kill four roman archers. No promotions.

IT
Roman units trickle on

Turn 6 - 30 BC
Kill a few more, getting two slaves. One Elite win, no promotions.

IT
Loose the last suicide Galley

IT
Xerxes demands Monarchy. No way, he backs down.

Turn 9 - 30 AD
We discover Currency. Persia has Monarchy -I sell him Currency for all his gold (89 gp), trusting in the Great Library.
We begin Engineering at the maximum sustainable rate.

Ops. The Barbarian uprising... :smoke:

Our most experienced fighters, A Space Oddity and Another Space Oddity, kill two wandering Archers but no great leader comes out of the battle.

The bulk of our troops is at Rome's doors. The siege begins.
The Catapult misses her target (of course).
We loose one Elite and a few Veteran, but our determination finally bests two Elite Legions that defended Rome, redlining the third.
The final wave of our attack eliminates the Spearman and the Archer.
A lone, wounded Legion stands to defend Rome.
The Numidian Mercenary steps to the front, leading the final assault, and wins. Rome is ours.

I stop here, as we may want to review things a little bit.


Notes
The good thing is that our neighbours are almost gone.

The bad one is that we have a few barb horsemen to face -my fault, actually: I didn't leave enough Archers there. I managed to send a Numid in Hippo, but he may not last. And we have a lot of money in our coffers :smoke:

The other bad thing is that in spite of many elite wins, we have got no great leader.

Hmm... I realize the log is probably not too informative, and I didn't post any screenshots. So, in summary:

1. We are at peace with Persia (for the moment)
2. We conquered Rome, but:
- I haven't abandoned the city yet (turn is not over)
- I haven't made peace yet (should we do that at this point? We can actually conquer three cities in one turn and start our FP probably).
3. There are 15 barb horsemen next to our two doomed Archers.

The South:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/RomeSG4.jpeg

Right, this *does* show the situation better, birthday-boy. :)

If you think we can actually start the FP, it would be a shame to make peace, except when we can get those three cities in the peace negotiations now, that would be quicker even, no?

BTW, do we have any more contacts?

Looks like we've still got a fairly hefty stack of units. :) I think we should keep going for a while and try to get another leader - even if its used to rush a palace in the ruins of Rome. Maybe getting ourselves a settler might be a good option now?

So this was your birthday celebration? Good choice! :D

I think we should make peace, get the 3 cities and start the FP, if possible.

I will also bring up a thought I expressed before. I think we should move Hippo and Rome so that they are closer together and so that the new Rome can still reach the Iron when it expands its borders. With the 2 cities relocated I think they will eventually be able to join their borders. That will keep the other civs from founding cities in the Mutton Valley and will give us a better chance of being able to defend Rome in the future.

Well, I didn't manage to get any new contacts -I *did* sink a couple of galleys though... :D
Actually, apart from the wild celebrations in Rome, I think I left a bit of a mess around -see what happens when you get carried away ;)

I am afraid that we will have to disband Rome now, and I don't think that we will be able to move our capital there. A settler is probably the only solution in this regard.

I would also vote for peace and FP now, as we would have no other cultural building available and our prebuild for the Palace will end before we get to build another wonder.Some peace-time exploration may actually give us some contacts...
Of course, I would also like to attack Rome again as soon as possible, hoping to get a GL. :D
About moving Hippo, I get the point, but I a a bit uncomfortable with the idea of moving two cities...

The lack of contacts is starting to be a problem. Should we be buying a contact from Persia, they had one for sale, didn't they?

No, unfortunately they know no other civ.

I guess that Utica can build a galley or two if there are no cultural buildings to build! :mischief:

Let's put all coastal cities on Galleys and discover the other civs ASAP.

:bump: MB? You about?

Oh dear!

OK - Got it. Will play this evening and post. If I can, shall I play 15 turns just to help us along a bit?

Fine by me. :) I see the "game over" spoiler is up..... :p

Yes, go ahead Mad :)

Sorry for the silence. I will post the new save tomorrow morining.

I do aplogise for my absence but I have a few work/life issues right now, but I'm working on it.

30AD:
Well... I think we need the FP..
We can't get another wonder, everything is too far away.
Take peace with Rome for Hispalis Pompeii and Ravenna.
Change Utica to FP which we will get in two turns.
Disband Ravenna, Pompeii,Hispalis and Hippo.
Make mental note to chastise Karasu for the two archers we will lose IBT. ;)

IBT:
We only lose one of the archers.

(1) 50AD:
Carthage switched to market.

IBT:
FP completes. Decide to squeeze in a quick market since we will get a third lux soon.

Leptis Magna duct - galley, and MM'd a bit to give it more food.

Theveste duct - library. Want the expansion for the Whale.

Palace expands (of course).

(2) 70AD
The remaining Roman citizen can now be put to work.
Otherwise, nothing happened.


(3) 90AD
All Quiet
Will road and mine the iron and then colonise the Wool otherwise we lose too many worker turns.

IBT:
Golden Age ends.

(4) 110AD:
Revolt and draw three turns.
MM everything so we don't get riots.

IBT:
Theveste still manages to Riot

(5) 130AD:

(6) 150AD:

(7) 170AD:
Switch to Monarchy. I hope this is OK BTW. In this mod monarchy is a lot better. Republic is better overall but we are a long way from getting it probably.

Hurry the temple in Rome. We really don't need that flipping.

IBT:
Rome Temple - Library. May be vetoed.
Leptis Magna Galley - Library.

(8) 190AD:
Rome discovers Republic. :smoke:


(9) 210AD:

IBT:
Utica Market - Palace
Meet India. They are broke and stupid. No sensible deals available.


(10)230AD:
Nothing happening.

(11) 250AD:

IBT:
Carthage Market - Library
India drop an archer and settler near our wool colony. I'll declare next turn so that I can use an elite.

(12) 260AD:

Formed wool colony. Lux to zero.

(13) 270AD:
Declare war on India and kill archer/capture settler. No leader.

IBT:
Theveste Library - Market

(14) 280AD:
Trying now to manipulate an Indian spear/settler pair off a mountain.

(15) 290AD:

IBT: Leptis Magna Library - Sword

(16) 300AD:
Nothing much happened.


Post Match Report.

We are at war with India. They have a settler pair in our Eastern Mountains and they are being shadowed by a few elite archers. They will have to step off a mountain to settle, at which time we can whack them of course.

There is a galley heading anti clockwise around the island, exploring.

There is a Roman settler trio near our wool colony. They are covered, but I didn't get enough units there quick enough. It could be a bad mistake. We'll have to see.

The only available techs we don't know are Monotheism and Republic.

Well, I didn't get much new culture into Utica, but I think we look good for Sistines and Leo's. (Leo's is expensive though)

I don't have a screen shot ATM. If I get a chance a little later I'll post one.

Well done, MB! We've had to wait for a bit ;) but look what it got us: an FP, an extra lux, getting acquainted with India, war with this newly found 'friend', a Market in Utica... I could go on and on. :goodjob:

Well done, mate -Aren't you grateful for those barb horses I left you to play with? I was sure you would enjoy them... :D :p

Who's next? Zagnut?

Yes, I am up. However, I will not be able to play until Monday. Business is booming right now and I have to leave tomorrow evening for a pleasure/business trip over the weekend. Please pass me by.

K. Have fun, Zagnut. [party]

That makes me up, I got it.

Business is booming right now.Well, glad to hear that its "good business" taking up your time than "bad business" requiring your time!

Have fun. :)

Our chance on the Romans not settling next the Wool seems low. :(
Two turns to go on our peace deal with them, so we'll have to decide whether the wool is worth it.

The pre-build seems to end too soon, I'll slow it down, but be warned: some means to do that are rather drastic (think riot in city or nation wide revolt :eek: ) so lets keep our fingers crossed for a bit quicker research by the AI.

Too bad about the lack of contacts, I think we need Galleys more than swords right now. They cost less too (since they are sinking all the time anyway :mischief: ).

Any suggestions?

I think we have 12 turns to go on the peace deal Space. That would mean 10 turns with 2 luxes or a broken rep. We may not be able to afford a broken rep since we will need to trade for luxes/resources probably.

Not all that sure what we need galleys for right now, unless we intend sending out suicide galleys. Contacts will ot be much use until astronomy/navigation anyway. Maybe we can get a tech, I don't know.

The Prebuild could go to a cathederal once we get engineering and trade it for Monotheism, otherwise you could build a harbour. That way we can control build rates easier by putting citizens on coast tiles for no loss of food. Then we could build Cathederal then Sistines and then Leos on the way to Bachs. Sun Tzus will give us a bigger pre-build opportunity as a palace is less than 1000 shields to us ATM IIRC.

Astronomy/Navigation are the priorities however so we can make new freinds, but I would take the time to research invention personally.

Thanks for clarifying that you didn't intent the prebuild for Sistines or Leos. I don't think the prebuild will last us that long, It's the cheap Palace is an effect of the 5CC I should have recognised for our 5 times 20K game. :rolleyes: An immediate Cathedral is good too.

pre-turn:
Move the Num Merc E, maybe I can still steer the Roman group a little.
MM Rome to grow in 2.

IT:
The Roman group go North, the Indian south, they are now face to face. Hmm, I decide to let them live for one more turn.

turn 1: 310 AD
Move the Archers West out of the way, maybe I can entice the Roman group to go West on the lake, that would leave us the other Wool (at least until the borders expand).
Woops, our Galley ends alongside an Indian one.
MM Utica for a bit slower build and more gold.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Staff_SG004_SettlerDance.JPG

IT:
The Roman group does move West, yes and found a city, bye bye colony.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Staff_SG004_SettlerDancepart2.JPG

Indians go west also.
Indian Galley attacks, redlines but sinks ours. :(
Cathage riots.

turn 2: 320 AD
Space attacks the Indian group and... Mago sees the light of day!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Staff_SG004_Mago.JPG

Too bad we can't build any Wonders right now.
The two Indian workers will move to the Wool to found our new colony.

IT:
Zzz

turn 3: 330 AD
Up the science slider, Engineering due in 4 turns.
Mago goes home accompanied by an Archer.

IT:
The great Lib yields us Republic, we revolt.

turn 4: 340 AD
Riots everywhere, good thing we're not going for score. :rolleyes:

turn 5: 350 AD
We're a Republic and need 10% lux, Workers are busy creating a new route to the free Wool.

turn 6: 360 AD
Workers work, Engineering due in 2.

turn 7: 370 AD
Carthage completes the Library and starts a Temple.
India is willing to talk, but I see no reason to make peace yet.
We're making money again.

IT:
Engineering is in, start Feudalism. Ask for the 'big picture' and buy Monotheism from Persia for Engineering and 108g.
Go back to the science advisor and start Theology in the expectation that the GL will give us Feudalism. Go back to the domestic advisor and switch Utica to Cathedral for the loss of 62 shields.
Start the Palace again.

turn 8: 380 AD
Disband a Warrior, no longer needed for policing duty.
Theology will be ready in 14 turns at a deficit momentarily. Road to wool will be ready in two turns.

turn 9: 390 AD
Disband one more Warrior.
India arrives with three Galleys, I think they have settlers onboard hading for our Ivory.
Our new Sword is heading back there to help defend it.

IT:
India lands a Sword defended settler northwest of Rome.

turn 10: 400 AD
Our starred Elite attacks it and dies. Our Sword revenges it and we have two more workers!

IT:
The Romans build another city.

turn 11: 410 AD
Block access to the River to stop another Roman settler pair.
Use a native Worker to create the new colony.

turn 12: 420 AD
Theveste completes the Marketplace and starts a Galley.

turn 13: 430 AD
Carthage completes a Temple and starts a Sword.
Roman behaviour suggests there's a barb camp somewhere.

turn 14: 440 AD
Rome completes the Library, starts Market
Leptis Magna completes a Sword, starts Market
All the Indian Galleys have left.

turn 15: 450 AD
New Indian ships arrive.
Rome is about to riot, so it gets a Taxman.
Theology is due in 6, a pre-build is on its way and a Leader is waiting for a sensible duty, a sword army perhaps, or maybe Sun Tzu's if that comes available.
Crazy as it seems, we may have to start gifting things... :eek:

A sword army might be a good idea whilst we're still at war with the Indians - give us the heroic epic to build. If we are about 7 turns away from theology, will our pre-build finish too early?

No actually, it's timed rather well (7 turns to go). :)

Great! :thumbsup: Is it me up now? :confused: I think I can get a set of turns in over the weekend. :)

Yes, it's:

Karasu - warming up
MB
Zagnut - skipped to party
Space - just played
Ainwood - Up now

Ok - I might get going soon. What's the plan? Try to use the prebuild for sistene chapel, and what about the leader? Happy for an army to go for the heroic epic? Keep skirmishing with India and try to get another leader?

I'd go for Heroic Epic. It's 4 cpt after all, even though we are starting to get lots of wonders.

Yes, heroic epic, definitely, we'll still get Sistines I reckon. You can declare on Rome in a couple of turns, get our wool back and thin them out a bit.

Good turns Space. Very nicely played!

As found: Turn mago into army, and move to carthage. Move sword from Leptis Magna towards army.

IT: India land a settler / spearman near us in the south.

Turn 1: 460 AD;
Elite Mad destroys spearman.


IT:
Sure are a lot of roman settlers on the move.... When can we redeclare again?

Turn 2: 470 AD:
Using workers to hem-in the romans heading through mutton valley. Disperse a barb camp.

IT:
India lands a horseman next to Leptis Magna.


Turn 3: 480 AD:
Send a suicide galley east - it sees a coastal area on the horizon!
Destroy horseman - but leptis undefended! Move NM towards it from carthage.

IT:
Galley sinks.
India land a spear and an archer next to Leptis.

Turn 4: 490 AD:
Retreat to Leptis. Plan another suicide galley (Trevor).

IT:
Archer destroyed attacking Leptis.
We get a palace expansion.
Rome found caeserAugusta at the entrance to Mutton valley.

Turn 5: 500 AD:
Galley is still in the sea, but close enough to land to see a german archer in an orange border. They are very backward, and presumably also joining-in on the 5CC variant!
Xerxes has feudalism, but he isn't trading.
Adjust tax as we get theology next turn.

IT:
We get theology. I choose education, because that will get us a university and put us on-track for bachs. With how backward the world is, the Great Library won't help us much anymore. Switch Utica to Sistene Chapel (15 turns).
"Our Trevor" was lost in treachorous water. Didn't know we were in east-enders.

Turn 6: 510 AD:
Xerxes will give us feudalism + 10 gold for theology, but I decline. We can't start SunTzu's yet, and sometime in the next 15 turns (before the GL expires) we might get it for free. We don't want to risk him starting Sistenes, even though we should beat him to it.
Check wonders screen and note that the GL is owned by Persia. What are the indians doing travelling across sea tiles in galleys?

IT:
Persians start SunTzus.

Turn 7: 520 AD:
We now have a full-strength sword army. Rome is getting a bit annoying, so its time to prune them - they also have a (presumably settler laden) galley heading around the coast. Will move the army into position then declare.

IT:
zzzzz

Turn 8: 530 AD:
zzzzz

IT:
ZZZZ

Turn 9: 540 AD:
Troops in position, I will declare next turn.

IT:
Rome Expands. Leptis Magna complete marketplace, starts harbour.

Turn 10: 550 AD:
Rome has a galley in our waters, but I don't get a "remove or declare" option, so just meet and declare.
Lose wool in core until I can take CaeserAugusta, so lux up 10%. Rome needs two entertainers.

IT:
Rome retreat to cities.
India land horse and archer next to Utica.
Thevest completes harbour, starts NM.

Turn 11: 560AD:
CaeserAugusta Razed, and we have a victorious army! Even better, our core cities have iron and wool again.
Destroy horseman near utica, and get promotion.
Lose two archers to a spear and legion in razing byzantium.
Elite win to archer defeating reg archer.
Decide discretion is the better part of valour, and decide not to use three elite archers to attack a reg spearman on a hill city....

IT:
Lose three archer to counterattacks.
Romans move three spearman, two archers and a settler out of Brundisium, leaving it vulnerable to our three archers.

Turn 12: 570 AD:
Destroy archer and spearman.

IT:
Lose another sword to counterattack. Romand land settler near ivory. The close-in on Rome with Archers.


Turn 13: 580AD:
Archer loses to spear near ivory! They will settle next turn, and we'll lose it.
Destroy stray indian archer.

IT:
Strangely, rome doesn't settle on ivory - fortify red-lined spear to heal.
India want monothesim for peace! :lol:
Rome loses an archer attacking Rome.

Turn 14: 590 AD:
First order of business is protecting the ivory. Mission accomplished.
Attack Brundisium, and raze it. Lose 2 elite archers though. Two elite victories, no leaders.
Get a promotion to elite destroying an archer / settler pair.
Dispatch two archers near rome.


IT:
India land sword and archer near leptis....
Rome completes marketplace. Start barracks.

Turn 15: 600AD:
Lose elite archer to unfortified reg archer in open grassland. And another 4-HP elite archer on 3-HP vet archer.
:rolleyes:

Lose two vet swords in assault in Syracuse.
Mop-up the aforementioned archers.
Defenses in Leptis Magna rally to defeat indian sword and archer.



Situation: We are 4 turns from education, and 6 from the Sistene Chapel. Once we finish Sistenes, we will have the heroic epic to build, then we can bee-line for Bachs.

On the war front, there are at least two spears, a settler and an archer in the fog in mutton valley. We are barely holding on with our defenses in the core against the indians - a few 'bad' rngs rolls, and we could be in trouble. Maybe we can sue for peace, but I figure that they are the strongest civ, and its keeping them occupied sending units our way rather than stealing our wonders! Plus, they want monotheism, and if we hold-back on that I don't see how anyone can threaten us to Bachs.
I <hope> syracuse has only one defender (no archers), as we should take it next turn with our army.


Oops! Noticed that Carthage is about to riot. Fixed that. :)
Also, we should get feudalism next turn, because there are now three civs with it.
On reflection, we have an abundance of workers. Should consider merging them into theveste and Leptis Magna.

Well done Ainwood, I think Karasu is the ideal player to finish what you started: war with Rome. :) About the war with India, it might be worth the trouble to get someone else involved to entice them to splitting their efforts.

Karasu - Up now
MB - warming up
Zagnut
Space
Ainwood - just played

Well done Ainwood, I think Karasu is the ideal player to finish what you started: war with Rome. :) I didn't leave him very many units for that...


Karasu - Up now
MB - warming up
Zagnut
Space
Ainwood - just playedZagnut was on a skip, and was going to play today (ish). :)

I won't have internet access tomorrow. I will be able to play Tuesday evening though. If zagnut wants to fit in a turn then that's cool.

Same with me.
I'll be without PC nor internet access until Wednesday, and unable to play until Thursday.

Hi, folks. I am back. I am at work now, but might be able to play tonight (6 hours). However, if anyone wants to take it, please feel free. It will take me a while to get up to speed because I haven't looked at the game since my last turn.

Hi, folks. I am back. I am at work now, but might be able to play tonight (6 hours). However, if anyone wants to take it, please feel free. It will take me a while to get up to speed because I haven't looked at the game since my last turn.
Welcome back, Zagnut! Have a good weekend?

I think you're probably in the best position to play, so go for it. :)

Sorry, I didn't get to play tonight. Will try again tomorrow.

November 2 - I have the game.

Take game and move Swordsman out of Carthage to protect 2 Workers from the Romans that ainwood says are coming out of the fog in Mutton Valley. Looks as if all things are quiet around Rome and that you have left me in a good position there.

IT - We get Feudalism from the Great Library. Rome riots because the Romans build Palmyra on the road to Mutton Valley cutting off luxuries.

610 AD - Turn 1 - Increase luxuries to 30% to head off unrest in Carthage and make them happy in Rome. Our Army capture and razes Syracuse. Only defended by one Spearman. Move units to attack Palmyra. Join Worker to Leptis.

IT - Roman Archer and Spearman attack Archer. He kills Roman Archer and redlines Spearman before he dies. Another of our Archers redlines a Roman Horse. Two other Roman Archers show up. Rome continues to riot because I misread content citizens as happy. Rome needs 3 entertainers to keep it in line now that Palmyra has cut off the luxuries. Theveste produces Galley

620 - Turn 2 - Archer kills Roman Horseman. Swordsman kills barb in Mutton Valley. Send 2 Workers to Theveste to merge. Decrease science by one turn to reduce deficit. Move Galley out of Theveste to attack Indian Galley but forget that we have differential movement and end up one square away.

IT - Indian Galley sinks ours. Leptis = Harbor -> Warrior

630 - Turn 3 - Archer takes out wounded Spearman heading for Palmyra. Swordsman destroys Barb village in Mutton Valley. Two Archers kill 2 Roman Archers. Reduce science. No effect on Education.
IT - I note that an Indian Galley heads west from our continent into the fog from the river delta in Mutton Valley. That must be the safe way across as Persia can trade with us. Leptis Warrior -> Galley.

640 - Turn 4 - Moving Workers to build road down eastern side of continent to avoid having luxuries cut off by another civ building a city in the Mutton Valley area.

IT - Discover Education. Research Music Theory. Indians building Sun Tzu.

650 - Turn 5 - Palmyra destroyed and Rome again has access to luxuries and the north to Iron. MM all cities. Upgrade Warrior to Med Infantry. Persia has Invention but wants all our gold, gpt and Theology. I decline. India destroys another of our Galleys.

IT - Indians drop off 2 boatloads of troops in the north. We discover Sistine Chapel. Start University.

660 - Turn 6 - Kill Indian Swordsman, but Vet Archer loses to regular Archer. Another of our Archers kills him. Swordsman kills Spearman and captures Settler. That ends the Indian invasion.

How do we secure the Mutton Valley? If it is left open then every civ will be sending Settlers. They will cut off Rome from the cities in the north and we will have to declare war constantly.
Maybe we want to do that and get the leaders?

IT - Indians land another Spearman/Archer. Our valiant troops defeat them.

670 - Turn 7 - Kill 3 Roman Archers. Connect road down the east side of continent.

IT - Roman troops kill 2 Archers.

680 - Turn 8 - Kill Roman Horseman.

IT - Rome builds Barracks. Start Med Infantry.

690 - Building additional roads through the mountains flanking Mutton Valley so that we aren’t connected to Rome by only one road.

IT - Barbs kill Worker in the Mutton Mountains.

700 - Turn 10 - Kill Roman Archer. Army attacks Viroconium and kills Spearman. At least one other there.

I have left you a bit thin in the north with units. I would suggest that some more units be build after the current crop of city improvements is complete.

I believe the way to the other continent is by the yellow arrow.

And now I must go and watch TV and hope that my President loses the election.

Looks good Zagnut - sorry about leaving you a bit short of units!

Haven't looked in detail, but one thing that stands-out is that shouldn't we build the heroic epic in Utica? :confused:

OK I'm Up and will play this evening and post tomorrow. :)
Good turns Zagnut. Well done.

I agree with the HE build. Will comment more when I open the save.

Mutton valley is difficult. Had we played a conquest game it would have been a lot easier to control.

Maybe the answer to mutton valley is to build a coastal road?

You are right about Heroic Epic. I had a brain fart.

On the issue of roads, I think it is necessary to build a number of roads through Mutton Valley and its surrounding mountains so that there is no road choke point that could prevent our access to Rome.

@MB - can you get your turns played?

When is the closing date? Do we need to revert to 'play-when-you-can' mode?

(0) 700AD: Pre-turn.
I MM Utica and give it a mined BG currently used by Carthage to get the Uni a turn earlier. The mountain at Carthage needs roading and mining. We can't have Utica working water.

The Heroic Epic is being built in Leptis Magna. This is 4cpt so I think it should be put in Utica. There is also a forest chop goin on at Leptis Magna and we'll lose the shields if we don't change. So I change to Uni.

(1) 710AD
eSword beats roman Archer.
Decide not to attack Viroconium as I want to use an elite to do it.
3 of our cities have specialists, so I raise entertainment a notch for a couple of turns until the temple and cathederal finish.

(2) 720AD:
eSword beats another roman Archer
eArcher beats spear in Virconium, generating a leader.
vSword beats spear in Virconium taking and razing the town.
Hire a clown in Rome and change build to Cathederal. It is endemically unhappy.
Decide to raise the science right up to get MT a turn sooner.

(3) 730AD:
Decide to Cash Rush Uni in Utica so I can use the leader next turn.

(4) 740AD:
Rush Bachs with the leader.
I want to research banking next - but astronomy is forced since it gives Copernicus at 4cpt. We are now officially broke BTW :) Science is set to 50% at 4gpt net.

IBT:
India drops MDI off near Leptis Magna.
Utica Bachs - Heroic Epic

(5) 750AD:
eSword beats Indian MDI
eSword beats Roman Spear
Reduce entertainment slider due to Bachs.
Can increase science slider by one to compensate.
Persia will give Invention, all their 66g and 25gpt for Theology.
I take it. Leo's is an expensive wonder for its 2gpt, but it's nice to have in your back pocket.

IBT:
India sink our Galley.

(6) 760AD:
vSword Kills Roman archer
Science goes way up to 80%

IBT:
Our vSword is killed on a hill by a Roman Archer.
Rome founds Jerusalem in a position that threatens our wool colony.
Somehow it is defended by a legionary. :hmm:

(7) 770AD:
Our vArcher exacts revenge by killing the offending archer.
Disband a couple of native workers for the gpt. We have no native workers now. How's that for efficiency?


(8) 780AD:
vMDI destroys Jerusalem.

(9) 790AD:
All Quiet. Persia learns Chivalry an Gunpowder on the same turn. Gunpowder is a little expensive, so I pass for now. Chivalry is peanuts.

IBT:
An archer jumps out of Veii and attacks our one elite athlete. We win, but we will have to heal him now before the attack on Veii is worth the effort.

(10) 800AD:
Begin to move the injured elite sword back to Rome. And start to move our little stack out of Roman borders to save a few War Weariness points.

And that was that.

There is a barb camp NW of the rocks to the East of Mutton valley. You can see it but it might not be obvious. It has two barbs in it. I had workers next to it when it generated - which is strange. I didn't think that could happen.
Rome could do with a courthouse after the Cathederal.
We need a galley or two from Theveste and Leptis Magna since our only galley was sunk.
Leptis Magna is MM'd to finish its' Uni in two. If you want it to grow, then you will have to take a citizen off forest.
I'm sending some workers north to deal with Theveste. It needs 4 tiles improved fairly sharpish.

I guess that 59cpt is not too shabby at 800AD. :)
We will have HE in 5 and then Copernicus to build after that. I would not advocate swapping from HE to Copernicus since we will get it anyway and HE is cheaper culture. Astronomy finishes in 3 and the HE in 5. I guess we can turn science down if we need to, but I'd rather keep it high personally.

After Astronomy I would definitely go staright to Free Artistry. Without a leader we will get there just about as Copernicus finishes. If we get a leader then obviously it depends upon how many shields we have in Copernicus as to whether we should use him immediately or wait. I'm babbling, so I'll stop. :) Sorry.

Didn't build a single unit BTW. :rolleyes:



I don't think we need worry yet. Over the weekend I'll try to get a handle on how far we are from finishing, and if we look as if we are in trouble we can decide then. We still have 4 weeks before the cut-off that I was thinking about.

Yeah, we got Bachs! [dance] That was a timely Leader. :thumbsup:

About the Barb camps: I learned from the milking games that non-fighting units and artillery units doesn't prevent them from popping up. Kinda logical when you think about it.

Fantastic! The timing of these techs is almost perfect.

I was thinking that perhaps the lack of us actually contacting the rest of the world is helping - the AI is usually decidely anti-proactive about exploration on semi archapelago maps, and with no contacts, the tech rate is slower. This is definitely helping us keep in the lead on 5CC. :)

I've consulted CiVAssist and it predicts us 20k culture in 2020AD already. There is something weird going on with it BTW: it says 42 cpt in Utica, whilst the game gives 59 cpt. Maybe doubling is not calculated in that total? I got the feeling the endturn prediction is ok since (20000 - 3229) / 59 = 285 turns to go.

You're probably using an earlier version ;)

1.1.1 says 59 CPT, and gives an estimated win date of 1908 AD. :)

1.1.1 says 59 CPT, and gives an estimated win date of 1908 AD.
Is that good? I have never played a 20K game so do not know whether we are on track for a decent victory or not.

I'd say it's pretty decent in that light that we still lack Shakepeare and are well on track to get it.

Is that good? I have never played a 20K game so do not know whether we are on track for a decent victory or not.
I don't know either. :ack:

But in addition to shakespeares (8 CPT) which is up for grabs, we can also go after Newtons (6 CPT), and copernicus' ( 4CPT) 'soonish'.

Yes and HE in 5 turns too. Other stuff will double up. We should finish the game at over 130cpt if we play well. Shakes and HE will only double if we play badly so our finish date is pretty much set within ten turns or so already I guess.

:bump: Is it Karasu or Space? Either way, its not me ;)

Karasu - Up now
MB - warming up
Zagnut
Space
Ainwood - just played

This is what I posted a while ago, since then Zagnut and MB have played, so I guess it's Karasu. If he can't play I will. :)
So it's:

Karasu - Up (if he wants it)
MB - just played
Zagnut - took the turns before MB
Space - will take it, if Karasu doesn't
Ainwood - not up yet ;)

I'll play today, "got it".

Good for me. I should have some time tomorrow.

pre-turn:
All is well. :)

IT:
Hmm, India moves a settler pair(sword) to our wool. The guarding Med Inf is not healed yet (2/4).

turn 1: 810 AD
Tough call between attacking the Sword now it's not in a city and waiting for the Med Inf to heal to 3/4. I decide on the latter. If they settle now they won't destroy the colony. OTOH if they walk a step further they can setlle that tur too and destroy it. OK, I'll have to take the risk and attack now...
We have 2 new slaves. Not an extra scratch on the Med inf, phew.
I'm starting to build the coastal road, to ease the Barb Busting.

IT:
Roman galley moves north.
Barb threatens our workers.
Leptis Magna Uni -> Med Inf.

turn 2: 820 AD
Astronomy to be completed next turn, slider back to 70% for 20g.
Three spears killed in Veii. One Archer left. One elite victory.

IT:
Three slaves destroyed by barbs. :smoke:
Astronomy comes in, start Banking in the hope the AI will do Printing Press.

turn 3: 830 AD
Veii razed, 5 new Roman workers. The Roman capital moves to Neapolis.

IT:
Our Palace gets nice garden ornaments.

turn 4: 840 AD
Upgrade the 2 Archers to Longbows (one was an elite*).

IT:
Rome moves an Archer within the range of our elite Sword.
Carthage Uni -> Leo's
Utica HE -> Copernicus

turn 5: 850 AD
After thinking hard about it I decided to make peace with India and sell Education to both India and Persia. We now have more slaves than we need and we can use them to 'guard' our luxes, by occupying tiles.
Trade Spices for Fur with India.
Dispersed Barb camp.

IT:
Indian Galley now turns south.

turn 6: 860 AD
Operation 'slave-guarded Wool' complete, The Elephants need some more guiding.

IT:
Barbs sprout from Roman ruins.
Rome lands an Archer next to elite-sword guarded Leptis Magna.
Rome Cathedral -> Uni

turn 7: 870 AD
We do have Saltpeter on the island, but we need to connect it. Workers move to it.

IT:
Carthage Med Inf -> Leo's

turn 8: 880 AD
Elite Sword killa Roman Archer.
Attack and raze Cumae, another elite victory!

IT:
Roman Horse kills the Archer that was on his way to the barb camp. :smoke:
India lands a settler pair.

turn 9: 890 AD
Saltpeter connected.

IT:
Banking comes in, start Printing Press.
Theveste Uni -> Cathedral

turn 10: 900 AD
Thanks to the new Uni we can get PP in 4 turns on a small deficit.
Below you'll find the current situation. In the red circle is the Indian settler pair, in the blue circle the Roman Horse.

Sorry to leave you such boring turns Karasu :p, but I think it's important to leave at least 1 Roman city aroung for leader farming. The same purpose can arise for the India city when the peace deal finishes. We'd have to look at the lux situation in that case.

Good idea to protect our Wool, Space. I guess the Indian Settler will now go into Mutton Valley and settle there.

Now that we are at peace with India perhaps we can get a Galley across to the other continent without having it be sunk by the Indians, whose Galleys seem invincible.

I see it, but I have only downloaded it today.
Hopefully I will be able to play at least 40 seconds tomorrow, and upload my turnset before the turn of the century... :eek: ;)

Pre-Turn
What a nice setup. I don't dare move a single unit ;)
So, let's press Enter and see what happens

Ops. Xerxes demands Music Theory and gold :eek:
Let me think about it...
Well...
...no, thanks :D
He understands our reasons and does not declare

India founds Hyderabad where you last saw their settler.


Turn 1 - 910 AD
Set Leptis to produce a Caravel
We keep on covering the entire island with roads.

IT
Persia founds Gordium south of Rome. Oh, well...
Roman horseman enters our borders.

Turn 2 - 920 AD
It appears that our roman units will need at least 10 years to move in front of the invading horseman. We will have to wait for his attack in the safety of Rome's moenia

I sell Currency to Bismarck for a few coins and rush the Caravel in Leptis.

IT
The roman horse tries his luck on our defending army, and manages to survive. He is now sitting redlined outside Rome's gates.
Caesar decides to throw all his legions to us: a lonely Spearman enters our territory...

Turn 3 - 930 AD
Veteran Longbow finishes off the roman horseman, but does not promote.
Our two Elite swordsmen are moving towards Rome. I would raze Lutetia and leave them with Neapolis -it's easier to control outgoing units.

IT
We discover Printing Press. Go for Democracy at 80% science, 9 turns at +6 gpt (we cannot afford 90%).

Turn 4 - 940 AD
Elite Sword kills roman Spearman, but nothing else
Workers work
Caravel caravels

Some good news on the trading front.
I sell Persia Printing Press for 170 gold, 10 gpt and Horses. Immediately switch production to mounted units.
Sell India PP for all his gold (20...) and 11 gpt.
Not much overall, but we can now afford 100% science on Democracy, saving two turns.

I also sell Theology to Bismarck for contacts with everyone.

Talk to Greece. He is really backwards -I sell him Theology for 90 gold, he cannot even afford to pay gpt...
Hammurabi is more or less in the same condition, but hasn't even got a single gold piece to give us. Same with Scandinavia and Celts.
Osman of the Ottomans is (ehm... was) a bit richer, and gives us 130 gold and 6 gpt for Theology

I didn't sell them Republic (yet) but opted for Theology first -I was not sure whether we wanted them to change government or not.

IT
India demands contact with Greece. No way, Mahatma.
Persia started Copernicus

Turn 5 - 950 AD
Move units

IT
Babylonians started Sun Tzu

Turn 6 - 960 AD
Waiting for the swordsman to fully recover
The caravel is sailing along India's coast

IT
Nothing much

Turn 7 - 970 AD
I sold Banking to Persia for 66 gold and 31 gpt, as this will allow us to keep the max research rate. Nobody else can afford to buy it yet.
We should keep an eye on Xerxes, though, as our tech lead on him is getting slim.

IT
Persepolis completes Sun Tzu

Turn 8 - 980 AD
Our powerful army starts moving towards Lutetia

IT
Everyone starts Leonardo's Workshop
Caesar wants to talk, but we won't listen to him

Turn 9 - 990 AD
I check the diplo screen. No, the AI civs have not gained contact with one another, they just happened to reach Invention I guess.
Our great roading project is almost complete. Our workers begin wondering what to do now

IT
Persia started Magellan and landed a Musket-settler pair on our southern coast. So Xerxes is trying to take the initiative...

Turn 10 - 1000 AD
The lone caravel braves the high seas and wisely ends its turn on a sea tile.
Our workers demand to be allowed to build a couple of fortresses around mutton valley. Oh, well, if you wish...
The army is two tiles from Lutetia.
Our first knight moves towards Rome (you never know)

Notes
No fighting this round. I don't think that Rome will offer us any great leader-fishing opportunity. We could probably get rid of them and try with India, maybe even putting together a small invasion force (we are rated strong compared to them)
Persia needs to be left alone as long as we have the horses deal with them.
Navigation and maps are up for trade now, but I didn't do anything on my last turn.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4-1000AD.jpg

Looks good, Karasu!

If we can disband something in utica for a single measly shield, we'll get Copernicus' a turn faster (we are doing 22 / turn, and it needs 67 to complete).

But now, I gotta go to bed.

Well done Karasu. :)

Who's up?

Karasu - just played
MB - played before Space
Zagnut - Up?
Space - played before Karasu
Ainwood - Up?

Yes... who's holding up the game? Laggards! :mischief:

It's sorta strange to see how badly organized the staff is ... ;) ;) ;)

I wandered when someone would notice... :( :mischief: :D

We're doing it on purpose, so you don't think we are too perfect... :D

BTW, what about a roster like...

Karasu - Just played
Mad Bax, Space - played too recently to be UP again
Zagnut, Ainwood - UP

I still have to finish KA01, which will be tomorrow morning. But I can take it after that.

Just a suggestion - but we could ask Renata to help us out a bit. How many turns left in the game do you think? 150ish?

I was actually thinking the same, so yeah, lets ask her. Even the 'competition' will want the staff team to finish the game, I presume... ;)

Maybe we should start the 'if you can, grab it' phase, where you can take it when at least two other people have played.

I agree. Who will invite Renata? I'm a little shy. :p

I will. (10 chars? why?)

The original order was me, Space, ainwood, Karasu and Mad. However, we seem to have gotten away from that order because of a number of skips. Why don't we just return to it? That would put Mad up and then me.

I think the alternative would just be a grab and go for whoever is available.

That's OK, but I won't be able to play until tomorrow evening - as I am travelling tonight. If anyone can get a turn in within 24hrs - even if it's only 5 turns then go for it I say.

I will play tonight - about 7 hours from now in my part of the world.

Well, I am trying very hard to avoid going away for the weekend. Something to do with a 5-hour drive each way, and the fact that I've had about 15 hours sleep in the last three nights. :ack:

If I don't go away, I can possibly get a turn-set in tonight (after Zagnut).

If you don't, I should be able to. I spent half the morning here reading the thread -- don't tell my boss -- and I think I'm caught up with what's going on. (We're going for a combo diplo/domination win, right? ;) ) This weekend's right out for me, though.

I need to download the resource files, right? Anything else I should know?

Glad to be here. :)

Renata

If you don't, I should be able to. I spent half the morning here reading the thread -- don't tell my boss -- and I think I'm caught up with what's going on. (We're going for a combo diplo/domination win, right? ;) ) This weekend's right out for me, though.
Close. An always-war occ diplo victory. We have a few too many cities, so better disband some. :)



I need to download the resource files, right?I didn't. Makes the game much more interesting to just guess where the resources are! :goodjob:

Welcome, Renata. Would you like to play now. I can't play for about 4 more hours. If you are available I would be happy to follow a homicidal jungle cat.

By the way, it's a 5CC diplo victory.

Close. An always-war occ diplo victory. We have a few too many cities, so better disband some. :)

I didn't. Makes the game much more interesting to just guess where the resources are! :goodjob:

*snerk* You're a funny man! :nono:

edit @ Zagnut: no, you go ahead. I'm stuck at work almost that long anyway. I'll play after you, unless Ainwood expresses a burning desire to knock some sense into those civs that keep trying to settle our continent.

Renata

*snerk* You're a funny man! :nono:


Actually, on the resources one I was being serious. I didn't install the resource pack, and suddenly remembered that it was dubbed "mutton valley" because of the sheep that I couldn't see. :blush:

When take game go to Utica and investigate ainwood’s suggestion that we can cut one turn off Copernicus if we can get one more shield. 67 are needed and we have 22 per turn. There is one shield lost to corruption. All of the squares are mined and producing shields so can’t get any more there. I do not know if there is a way to reduce that corruption to zero. I play around with the scientists and taxmen, adjust the sliders but nothing seems to help. Any suggestions from the crew?

IT - Persia founds another city on the west coast. We discover Democracy and research Free Artistry.

1010 AD - Turn 1- Our Caravel, after a harrowing journey across all ocean squares, reaches what appears to be the very northern point of the continent on which the Ottomans and Greece live.
Increase science to 100% to get Free Art in 5 turns at -8 gold.

IT - Persia demands our Archer leave Bactra which it founded last turn and we are already on our way.

1020 - Turn 2 - Our troops invade Lutetia. eSword defeats Spearman, no leader. eSword defeats another Spear. The city falls. No leaders.

IT - zzz

1030 - Turn 3 - The Caravel determines that it had only discovered an Ottoman island. It proceeds further SE and seems to find the continent with Greece and Scandanavia.

We are 3 turns from Free Art and 1 turn from Copernicus. Therefore, we will be able to get a little head start on Shakespeare before we discover its tech.

IT - Build Copernicus.

1040 - Turn 4 - Revolt to Democracy. Get 3 turns of Anarchy, so no head start on Shakespeare.

IT - zzz

1050 - Caravel still exploring south. Reaches German lands.

IT - Persia completes Leo’s.

1060 - Turn 6 - No trades available with any civ except Persia who has Navigation. They will trade for Demo but I am wary of that because we probably don’t need Navigation as much as they need Demo.

IT - I get a message that because Utica can no longer work on Leo’s production has been switched to Bank!! Sorry, I forgot to switch the production off Leo’s which I was using as a pre-build for Shakespeare.

1070 - Turn 7 - Switch to Democracy. Start a Palace pre-build in Utica.

IT - zzz

1080 - Turn 8 - Caravel explores. Move 2 eSwords toward last Roman city.

IT - Discover Free Artistry. Research Chemistry.

1090 - Turn 9 - Move Workers around. Not much to do with them.

1100 - Turn 10 - Things are quiet.

Note: The 2 eSwordsmen outside the Roman city are there for leader farming. Only Persia has any techs that we do not. They spent there research time on the dead-end techs Economics and Navigation.

Looks good Zagnut - I am "here" for the weekend, but have a bit to do in the next wee while, so if you want to grab an extra 5 or 10 turns, go for it and I'll play a bit later. :)

I could play, but .. what is an "eSword"? Is this 1.29f after all? (Checked sign-up thread and thought you were playing PTW.)

If I have to download and install all the modpacks, I won't be able to play today. :(

Renata

eSword is simply "elite swordsman". This is a PTW-friendly game. If you want to install the resource pack, you get the correct resources piccies.

Try opening in PTW and see if you get any errors.

Ok, it looks fine. It's too late for me to play now, though. I can play in about 24 hours after class tomorrow night, since it's a Friday. If anyone can get a set of turns in in the meantime, I'll play after; if not, I can take this save (since I already have it :) ).

I noticed one thing. Utica is going to build Shakespeare's at the same 22spt that it did its last build at, and 22x18 is 396 shields. Shakespeare's is 400 shields. Utica's wasting three food per turn right now, and conveniently, there are exactly three regular grassland tiles left in its radius. If someone can get a few workers over there to plant forests on those tiles, that should save a turn on Shakespeares -- and if there's no further corruption, it would get us to a nice round 25spt for upcoming wonders.

Night all.

Renata

Good thinking!

Well, I'll play a turn set then. :)

Get save:
Follow Renata's excellent suggestion, and ID some suitable worker - can't move them until next turn though.
Note that the only people we are at-war with are the Romans. Do we wipe them out or hold them for leader farming? We have minor war-weariness in that not everyone is happy, but as Zagnut suggests, they can be leader farms. Rome have zero money and are in a republic, so they won't be rushing units... Quickly stop to add "governments" to CivAssist ;)

Press enter:
IT:
Absolutely nothing...

Turn 1: 1110 AD:
Move workers towards Utica.
Attack Neopolis - we get redlined, but no leader.

Turn 2: 1120 AD:
zzzzz

IT:
Romans land a long-bow near Rome.
Indians start Smiths.

Turn 3: 1130 AD:
First two forests finished - Utica goes from 13 turns with end-wastage of 18 to 12 turns with an end-wastage of 20.
Knight dispatches longbow.

Turn 4: 1140 AD
Trade deal expires for horses.
I think we'll beat everyone to Shakespeare's, so I trade India Free Artistry for horses, world map and Economics.
Navigation costs 110 + FA from Xerxes. We now have all civs fully-mapped.
Cut back research, case we get chemistry next turn.
Final forest planted, and Utica will get Shakespeares in 10, with wastage of only 6.

Turn 5: 1150AD:
Finish Chemistry, start physics (heading for Newtons).
Carthage coloseum => Bank
India start shakespeares and magellans!
Caravel finds my little wine island. Pity we can't get them. :(

Turn 6: 1160 AD;
With some very cunning irrigation on mines then re-mining, with a lrge number of workers I get water to Leptis Magna. Will irrigate it to size 12.
31 GPT deal with persia expires. To maintain our research rate, I sell it to him for 500 gold, WM and 60 GPT. Shaves two turns off physics.
Take another elite win on neopolis - no leader.

Turn 7: zzzz
IT:

Turn 8: 1180 AD:
Leptis Magna Cathedral - bank

IT:
Persians start shakespeares.

Turn 9: 1190 AD
zzzz

IT

Turn 10: 1200 AD:
Another elite vic vs Neopolis. No leader.
Drop research back as physics next turn.

IT:
Discover physics, start TOG (due in 6 at 100%)

Turn 11: 1210AD;
Get gems from Bismark for banking.
Get silks from Brennus for spices.
Get incense from hammurabi for education.

Turn 12:
Not surprisingly, we get WLTKD!

Turn 13:
zzzzz

Turn 14:
Shakespeares finished, start Magellans (pre-build for Newtons, we will have TOG in 3 turns).
Predicted 20k date is 1852.

Turn 15:
Carthage bank - courthouse.
Persians complete Magellans, so switch Utica to Smiths.
Another elite vic in neopolis...

Phew, we got Shakespeare's! We couldn't affort to miss that one. Well done everybody!

I could play, but .. what is an "eSword"?

Renata

It's just my shorthand for elite sword. I'm lazy. :p

Welcome to the asylum BTW. :)

@ Ainwood -- Is the "..." after "another elite vic in Neapolis" supposed to be a hint? *hopeful grin*

@Mad-Bax -- Lazy is good. And thank you. :)

I can definitely play tonight -- about 8 hours from now. Only thing is, I'm having trouble with the forums on my home computer. That is to say, I can't get to them at all, and I have no idea why. So --

I'm assuming it's some sort of problem between my computer and the civfanatics.com/ forums.civfanatics.com server (all other sites are loading fine). Is the GOTM site on the same or a different server? If it's the same server, I may not be able to download the save; depends on whether or not my computer cooperates. If it's a different server, there shouldn't be a problem, but I may have to email someone my turnlog for posting if I can't access the forums. Would someone be willing to do that for me?

I stuck a thread in site feedback asking about the problem; I don't know what else to do except hope the site will load for me when I get home tonight after class. :(

Renata

It didn't load for me earlier today but now it is fine.

Sorry to confuse you with the elite shorthand. That was a good suggestion about foresting the squares around Utica. I didn't think of that and wish I had.

I am leaving very early on Saturday morning for a week of business trips. I do not bring a computer with me and do not think I will be able to access the forums. I will return late on November 21. By then I expect you all to have done your duty and concluded this game with a magnificent victory. Is it possible to get 4 turns/tech in a 5CC? Good luck and may the force be with you.

Have fun Zagnut!

@Reanta: Unfortunately, "no". IIRC we didn't suffer damage though.

Preturn, 1250 AD: Check everything out. 2 turns left on ToG; reduce science for extra cash. Persia deal has 11 turns to go -- can we get to MT by then and attack with cavs to try to get some leaders? Looks do-able, although we'll have to renew the horses deal with India when it comes up in 9. I'll try to get some more knights built by then. Catapults/cannons would be nice, too, for later upgrade, but we'll see. I'll probably wipe Rome at the end of my turns if we're about ready to declare on Persia.

In the meantime. Our army is strong (hah!) against everyone but Greece, Babylon, Celts, to whom it is average. We have the considerable defensive advantage of an island nearly to ourselves. It'll be a little while yet before anyone from the southern islands can reach us in strength. We have no deals with Greece, Scandinavia or the Ottomans. Okay, I think it would be to our longterm advantage to foment some wars. Greece is the big kahuna down south, even though they lag in tech -- I think I will orchestrate a mini-dogpile on them.

Declare on Greece. Cancel the spice/furs deal with India, which has just expired. Buy a bunch of embassies, not all, though. Buy in Babylon against Greece for Chemistry. Buy in India for just under 300g after including renewal of spices/furs deal. Let's see how that shakes out, shall we. With any luck, Otto and Bizzy will see fit to join the fun. Switch Carthage to knight.

IT -- Persia lands a horse/settler pair.

1255 AD (turn 1): Attack Neapolis with elite sword and get leader! Woohoo! Smith's is ours, take that India! (In building embassy last turn I saw that India would build Smith's the same turn as us with their current shield production. Persia is also busily throwing shields at Smiths.) And, umm, looks like that was Neapolis's last unit. Oops. Bye bye Rome, been nice knowing you. Himilco heads for Utica, which will build a bank while he's on his way.

IT -- Greek galley heading up our east coast. Will keep an eye on it. Persia settles a town at the south end of mutton valley.

1260 AD (turn 2): ToG to Metallurgy, in 5 at -2gpt. Rush bank in Utica, with Hamilcar arriving next turn. Yes, I like to spend money, why do you ask? India has Magnetism, Persia Metallurgy. I think I will refrain from sending either of *them* any of our hard-earned cash before I absolutely have to, though.

1265 AD (turn 3): Rome bank-courthouse. Utica bank-Smith's. Carthage knight-knight. Hamilcar rushes Smith's.

1270 AD (turn 4): Utica Smith's-Newton's, due in 16. I should note that in addition to the 3cpt, this earns us all of ten gpt. *proud of self* :lol:

IT: Whoo, this is an eventful set of turns! Persia demands ToG, most likely since they are about to lose their wonder build. I refuse, not wanting a cascade, and they declare war. Are we ready? Umm, nope. Should be fun. There is no cascade -- India loses their build also. Persia nails one of our workers.

1275 AD (turn 5): Leptis bank-knight. I'm going to play defense against Persia until we have cavs. They've cash-rushed musketmen in all their towns, which is a bit much for our small knight army. Their offensive units shouldn't be much of a problem, though. ToG buys in India against Persia, and also gets us all their gold (62), nearly all their gpt (8), metallurgy and magnetism. Start on MT at a modest pace; we'll need the cash for upgrades. MT due in 8 at +50gpt.

IT -- I think our rep might just have died. I've somehow lost the ability to trade with the Celts, and our silks/spices deal is broken. I think it must be their harbor -- they have only one, and it's only one tile. If there's a Greek ship sitting there, that could be why. Dang. Sorry guys, this might make things rather rough. In other news, Persia sends their horse out of their new town and captures Hyderabad, and Greece lands a settler/hoplite pair right next to our elite* sword that's still next to the former site of Neapolis.

1280 AD (turn 6): Sword attacks hoplite and loses; knight follows up and wins. Our other elite sword just happens to be in the right place at the right time (finger slipped and sent him to mountain by Hyderabad instead of mountain by Sardis last turn), and attacks and razes Hyderabad. I can get the silks back from Brennus for spices and a tech, but I'm a little hesitant, due to how easily the trade route was broken last time. We're not hurting for happiness; I think I'll hold off. I sent a couple of workers up to claim the other two ivory -- plenty of units blocking the whole area off -- if I can trade just lux for lux I'll buy the silks back next turn.

IT: Persia lands knight/longbow/settler west of Rome.

1285 AD (turn 7): Attack knight with knight, lose. Win with another knight. Elite sword kills longbow and captures slaves. See Persian galleon/frigate pair off the coast. We'll need some cannons soon to keep our tiles from being bombarded to heck and back. At least Utica's on the far coast from Persia. Carthage knight-knight. Trade Brennus ivory and spices for silks.

IT -- Greece finally lands a hoplite/settler pair out of that galley I've been shadowing.

1290 AD (turn 8): the hoplite eats another knight before dying to a second one. Rome courthouse-cannon. The backward civs that aren't totally broke pay me a total of about 30gpt and 125g for physics. Whoopie. :) Research up to 100%, MT now due in 3. The horses deal with India runs out before then -- will wait for MT to renew.

1295 AD (turn 9): nix

IT -- Ottoman galley off east coast near wool colony. Germany settles Nuremburg where Neapolis used to be.

1300 AD (turn 10): Knights moved to protect colony. This leaves a few workers vulnerable, but only if Persia has a horse in Sardis. I don't think they do. Leptis knight-cannon. MT next turn. 10 turns to Newtons'. There is a worker ready to make a colony on the last ivory next turn to help with horse purchase, if possible.

It just occurred to me that we're shortly going to be out of cultural-type things to build! Eep! Consider disbanding our army and building another for cavs if we get a leader soon?

Whoever's up next, have fun playing with Persia! (Imagine that said in the Billy Crystal "have fun storming the castle!" voice from Princess Bride.)

Cheers,
Renata

Well played, Renata. :goodjob: I'll comment later when I've seen the save. IIRC Mil Trad lets us build one of the mil small wonders, that gives a small bit of culture too.

I'll play ten this morning: 'got it'.

pre-turn:
All is well. :)

IT:
A Persian Longbow kills our Med Inf guarding the hill south of Rome.
MT comes in, start Steam.
We can build the Mil Academy after Newton's.
The Ottoman land a settler pair near our wool.

turn 1: 1305 AD
Block the way to the Wool with a Knight.
Kill Musket in Sidon, next defender is a Spear.
Pillage mine on hill near Bactra.
Move Knight to Rome, to attack Longbow next turn.

IT:
The Ottoman settles on the spot, well away from the Wool.
Greece wants peace. I grant it for 22g and 1gpt.

turn 2: 1310 AD
Sell Spices to Babylon for their Horses. They have 2 Harbours, so the deal should be a bit safer.
Upgrade seven Knights to Cavs, for 20g each, gotta love Leo's.
Our Sword Army razes Sidon, we get five extra Slaves and some gold. :)

IT:
The Ottos are getting tedious, they land a second pair, this time on our west coast.
India signs the Ottos against Persia, interesting.
The Ottos start Newton's, guess what India gave to sign 'em. :rolleyes:

turn 3: 1315 AD
Persia has Nationalism and Steam. Nat is also known by the Ottos and India, it isn't worth giving up our monpoly on MT just yet. Twelve turns to go on our MA against Persia.
Our 2 cannons hurt the defenders in Bactra. The Longbow and Knight claim it and it gets razed for Worker, no upgrades.
Our new Cavs move to Sardis.

IT:
Ottos send a Med Inf north, I wonder what he's upto?

turn 4: 1320 AD
Raze Sardis, using 3 Cavs, no casualties, but no upgrades either.
Persia is now down to 2 cities.
We are running on a deficit to get Steam in 6, but we still have enough to make it. The rails will get us the money back.
I thought about gifting Germany into the next age, but decided against it, for now.

IT:
It appeared the Ottoman Med Inf was on his way to Sardis, because he returns now.
They found Erdine northwest of Rome stealing some of our land, hrmph, we're lucky to still have a connected route north.

turn 5: 1325 AD
Check our deals with Otto, we have no... :evil:
I'll wait for next turn when the Med Inf comes of the mountain.

IT:
We lose Incense and Gems.

turn 6: 1330 AD
We have no happiness issues so, I'll leave the lux deals.
I check the Ottos and it seems we *do* get 6 gpt from them, it's not in CivAssist's list. :hmm: @Ainwood: this is 1.1.1.
I guess this saves him, for now.

IT:
The Otto Med Inf walks trhough our land to get to the Persian cities.
India founded Bengal west of Rome.

turn 7: 1335 AD
Persia now knows MT.
Attack and raze Gordium, no casualties, no upgrades.

IT:
Persia lands a Rifle and a Longbow next to Edrine, which is defended by a Pike... luckily it is still size 1, so it'll autoraze. we'll get rid of the surviving units.

turn 8: 1340 AD
Since MT is known by Persia decide to sell it to India for Furs, WM, 144g and 37gpt.

IT:
Persia kills one of our Cavs near Tyre, but fails to take Edrine.
Ottos land a Horseman defended settler down south.

turn 9: 1345 AD
Another cuasualty trying to take Tyre, but 1 defender is killed, only a Longbow left, again no upgrades. :(
Steam is due next turn so I move s few workers North.

IT:
India and Persia sign Peace.
Steam comes in, start Medicine.

turn 10: 1350 AD
We have coal near Utica. [dance]
:eek: Had Rome been 1 tile west we would've been able to build Iron Works...!
Raze Tyre, and finally one of our Cavs upgrades!
Disperse a Barb camp and another upgrade.

We can sign peace with Persia now, I suggest we do, but I'll leave the decision to the nest better player.
Also up for change is the choice for Medicine, no beakers have been spend on that so this can be switched.
Estimated 20k date: 1830AD.

We had a military alliance with Babylon and India against Greece. (oops?) ;)

How are you checking the estimated 20K date? Utility, spreadsheet?

Renata

Oops, indeed. :sad:

I use CivAssist, the tool made by Ainwood, a link is in his sig. It has a special tab for 20k data. I haven't got the newest version though (1 seems to pop up every week or so), and I noticed later that not every deal is mentioned in the 'My trades' tab... I should've checked. I'm sorry guys.

Hehe, if we just accidentally ROP-rape someone, we'll have completed the trifecta of unintentional rep ruination. :lol:

How does this affect us? Does it mean no alliances possible anymore at all? Or that they'll be more expensive? Even if it's the former, I think we're in good enough shape now for it not to matter much. India bringing the Ottos in against Persia is a good sign that the world political situation is already in decline. *evil grin* And with artillery and rails coming up soon, any AI is going to have a really hard time trying to take us out, even if a bunch of them gang up on us for lack of alliances. We should see if we can build a few ironclads to take out bombed ships around Utica, though -- last thing we want is to be pillaged there.

Renata