SGOTM4 - Team tao [Archive] - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

tao

Sep 21, 2004, 06:59 PM

1: 4000 it looks like the gotm28 position and thus I move the worker N: yes: there are spices and a second cow in the fog NNE; settler moves E

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sgotm4_tao_4000bc.jpg

2: 3950: Carthage founded starting warrior; worker moves E and irrigates, roads (industrieous is nice); max research on pottery

3, 4, 5, 6, 7: 3700: build warrior start next; warrior explores S, worker moves on cattle

8: 3650: irrigate, road cattle; explore

9: 3600: Carthage grows and works forest

10:3550: warrior done explores N; start next; mm Carthage to bg

11: 3500: mm Carthage to bonus grasland

12: 3450: borders expand and mm Carthage to work both cows; workers moves to bg for mining; S warrior sees sheep valley known from gotm28

13: 3400: 3rd warrior as mp; we meet Roman warrior S; they know warrior code lack masonry, are willing to trade but IMHO it is no fair exchange

14: 3350: mm for shields

15: 3300: mm for food, commerce; reduce science to 60%

16: 3250: warrior 4 done; start settler; warrior makes short exploration W but must be back in time to guards settler; mm; worker roads mine; warrior sees ivory (also known from gotm28) in the north; Rome knows bronze working; science to 70% to get pottery next turn

17: 3200: learn pottery: trade with Rome: get warrior code, bronze working, 3g for masonry, pottery, 3gpt; Caesar turns from cautious to polite; start writing at 30% breaking even

18: 3150: mine done, worker moves towards southern cow; see all 3 ivory in the north

19: 3100: see Roman border in the south; 10% lux to keep Carthage from rioting; mm to coincide growth with settler production

20: 3050: road cow before irrigation to speed settler movement

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sgotm4_tao_3050bc.jpg

In 3 turns, the settler can go south to found 20k(?) city. He will be accompanied by Carthage garrison, and the western warrior will be back to take over guard duty same turn. I remember quite a lot of Pictish barbarian activity from the north as well as from the south. Take care.

On city placements: IMHO the red spot at distance 5 should get the settler and build temple, Colossus(?), Great Library. The southern yellow spot will calim the excellent sheep position at distance 8 and serve well as a stronghold. The northern yellow dot (also at 8) will claim ivory after culture expansion but still has enough food to become a very strong city. The final city may go to the orange spot west or somewhere north of Carthage; let's wait until the warrior has exposed more of the terrain.

IMHO Carthage should build a granary next: we only need 3 more settlers, but a number of workers to connect our distant cities, maybe colonize the luxuries, and - even more important - to join to the culture city. And the worker of course has to go improve the southern city tiles.

From now on, 10 turns everybody:
demiurge (next)
furiey
zwingli
coletite
tao (just played)

The Save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/tao_SG004_BC3050_01.SAV)

Zwingli

Sep 21, 2004, 08:04 PM

Just from looking at the map, we might want to move the location for the 20k city 1 tile north-east. This will allow the city to share the cow with Carthage, allow workers to access the second city faster for worker merges, and give an important forest tile for micromanaging. More comments when I can access the save.

Demiurge

Sep 21, 2004, 08:41 PM

Got the save. I won't be playing till tomorrow evening.

I would agree with Zwingli about moving the red dot NE. Given that, we have 2 potential wonder cities. Good for breaking the cascades and trading off wonder builds. A dual 20k in the making...maybe a better chance if the capitol was on the coast, but 2 good sites none the less.

IMHO Carthage should build a granary next
That was my thought also and then another worker, maybe two before the next settler.

Zwingli

Sep 21, 2004, 10:02 PM

Ok, after a brief look at the save I would definitely build on the plains tile northeast of the red dot. The shield potential at size 12 is about 4 higher for the closer position, and corruption could potentially be a bit less. The other dot suggestions are good and will give us a good chance for future resources.

Since we are working on writing and do not know Ceremonial Burial yet, I would suggest starting a Palace once the second city is founded. In the case that Rome discovers CB we could trade for it and build a temple, and if they don't (before we build up 60 shields) we could switch to Colossus.

Edit: If we are alone on an island with Rome (as seems likely) we will have problems getting Wonder technology before they are built elsewhere. The second coastal city should prioritize suicide galley construction, which means we will have to aquire Map Making after Literature. In the event we are isolated with one other civ, technology is cheaper to research than to buy due to the 50% overcharge on monopoly techs. Therefore, we should only purchase tech if it is immediately necessary or if we can exchange one of our own techs.

tao

Sep 22, 2004, 04:01 AM

Edit: If we are alone on an island with Rome (as seems likely) we will have problems getting Wonder technology before they are built elsewhere. The second coastal city should prioritize suicide galley construction, which means we will have to aquire Map Making after Literature. In the event we are isolated with one other civ, technology is cheaper to research than to buy due to the 50% overcharge on monopoly techs. Therefore, we should only purchase tech if it is immediately necessary or if we can exchange one of our own techs.IIRC there is another continent across the sea west of sheep valley requiring 1 suicide turn. In gotm28, the Romans were on this continent. The other "passage" was to the northeast of our continent opening contacts with several civs.

Shouldn't we be able to Palace pre-build for The Great Library until we discover literature? Our research potential should grow fast, even with 5 cities, because we will grow fast.

PS: In gotm28, there was neither iron nor horses in the north; only the southern Persians (now Romans) had it. :( This means we also should try to get mathematics and build some catapults.

Zwingli

Sep 22, 2004, 11:43 AM

Given that, we have 2 potential wonder cities. Good for breaking the cascades and trading off wonder builds. A dual 20k in the making...maybe a better chance if the capitol was on the coast, but 2 good sites none the less.
We do have two very good city sites in terms of production. I would guess that at least a few teams founded/will found a wonder city 1 tile east of our Carthage using advance map knowledge (Either by founding the second city ICS style at that location or by moving the capital two squares). The two cattle and 4 bonus grassland available at that spot plus the multiple forests will make it the best for the ancient age.

Our 20k city will be about as productive as that site after the hills are mined in a new government, but we might have some catching up to do. The advantage of our location is that we end up with a strong capital as well as the 20k city. Carthage can build a substantial amount of units to fish for leaders later in the game, and will give us a stronger overall civ to stay current in technology.

IIRC there is another continent across the sea west of sheep valley requiring 1 suicide turn. In gotm28, the Romans were on this continent. The other "passage" was to the northeast of our continent opening contacts with several civs.
In that case, we shouldn't fall too far behind in tech. I agree that Mathematics will be a crucial tech for holding off Rome. :)

Furiey

Sep 22, 2004, 12:34 PM

Hmmm - no iron in the North, Mad-Bax may have changed things of course, but we would be foolish to assume he has. Whether it be Persian Immortals or Roman Legions, neither are much fun when you have no iron yourself. Cats will help.

I would guess that making contact off the island will be important too - without it, we won't get any techs from the Great Library, assuming we get it of course.

Demiurge

Sep 22, 2004, 07:39 PM

3050 bc (pre-turn)
Reduce sci slider to 10%, still get writing in 37, now at +1 gpt
After double-checking the submitted files list, I believe we are one-turn shy of where we should be which is 3000 bc so I'll play 1 extra turn to get us back on track
Hit return

3000 bc (turn 1)
Western warrior moves back toward Carthage
Northern warrior continues exploring in the N
Southern warrior moves toward hill S to take a peek at Roman territory, spies hut 2 turns further S

2950 bc (turn 2)
Worker completes road, irrigates
Northern warrior continues SE exploring
Western warrior continues toward Carthage
Southern warrior moves on hill, spies a two cattle site there as well

2900 bc (turn 3)
Carthage builds settler, send toward 20k site with Carthage warrior, set granary
Lux slider back to 0%
Northern warrior continues SE exploring
Western warrior reaches Carthage
Southern warrior pops hut, we learn CB
Romans will give us 30 gold, just checking
Roman military is about the same size and they also have 2 cities

2850 bc (turn 4)
Worker completes irrigating second cattle, moves W to BG, will migrate toward 20k site
Warrior in Carthage fortifies
Northern warrior continues SE exploring
Southern warrior continues S exploring
Warrior/settler pair reach 20k site

2800 bc (turn 5)
Accipitridae is founded near the oysters, set temple
Northern warrior continues SE exploring
Southern warrior continues S exploring
Give cattle to Accipitridae, Carthage still grows in 2 (now at +4 fpt)

2750 bc (turn 6)
Northern warrior continues exploring SE
Southern warrior continues S exploring

2710 bc (turn 7)
Northern warrior continues exploring SE, heading to Carthage to act as MP
Southern warrior continues S exploring
Carthage grows to pop 4, MM
Raise lux to 10%

2670 bc (turn 8)
Worker completes mine, moves S to next BG NW of Accipitridae; can go back and road later, seems the mine is important since we're not currently improving fast enough to keep up with growth
Southern warrior continues S exploring, moves into Roman territory
Northern warrior moving toward Carthage

IBT: The Romans ask us to leave, we tell Caesar we will when it suites us

2630 bc (turn 9)
Worker starts mine
Southern warrior continues S exploring, moves onto hill in Roman territory, on his way to the other side
Northern warrior moving toward Carthage

2590 bc (turn 10)
Northern warrior moves back into Carthage
Southern warrior out of Roman territory
Accipitridae grows to pop 2, MM Carthage off mined BG and give it to Accipitridae
Lux back to 0%

2550 bc (turn 11, make-up turn)
Pictish warrior appears in mountains near Accipitridae
Send MP in Carthage toward Accipitridae
Lux back up to 10%

Our world at 2550 bc:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/2550bc.jpg

We had some good luck and got CB from a hut.

Our first barb appeared and is headed toward Accipitridae but the next warrior will be there in time to defend it. The worker is done mining next turn so he can be moved then to remove him from any possible danger.

Our worker is not keeping up with growth so you might want to build a couple workers in Carthage soon. You might also want to build a couple archers or spartan hoplites in between to help take care of the barbs. They will be showing up pretty regularly for a while if I remember correctly.

Playing order
Furiey (next)
Zwingli
coletite
tao
Demiurge (just played)

Zwingli

Sep 22, 2004, 08:22 PM

Looks good overall, but I'll chip in a few extra points. :)

1. If we are going to go for minimum research on Writing, we should run deficit reseach on Literature to make use of our gold reserves.

2. If possible, it would be best to delay growth in Carthage until after the granary completes (by working more forests). Otherwise, the granary will be empty when it completes in two turns.

3. Now that Carthage is using only 1 cow, the city management is somewhat more complicated. Once the granary is complete, the city should work tiles for 3 food per turn after each growth for two turns, then shift to 4 food per turn to finish growth. Probably keep the city on workers and settlers with an occational warrior to fight barbarians (at Monarch level we get a substantial combat bonus vs. barbs).

Demiurge

Sep 22, 2004, 08:39 PM

2. If possible, it would be best to delay growth in Carthage until after the granary completes (by working more forests). Otherwise, the granary will be empty when it completes in two turns.
Yes it is possible. Working the two forests, we get growth and granary in 2. I went back and forth on that a couple times while MM and decided to leave it on the grass. Easily correctible anyway.

Zwingli

Sep 22, 2004, 09:13 PM

It looks like you would have to work 3 forest to delay growth until after granary completion. After granary completion, Furiey would have to readjust tiles for max food again. A bit tricky, but we would get 10 "free" food after growth.

Edit: This whole manuver only gains a few net shields and food, so if it is too complicated just keep growth at maximum. ;)

Demiurge

Sep 22, 2004, 09:44 PM

Thanks for the clarification. It doesn't sound complicated at just a matter of timing and of course knowing why it needs done. :)

tao

Sep 23, 2004, 12:14 AM

I was running more than min research on writing, because with our growth (and once we road the tiles worked) research will accelerate and we will get writing much faster.

May I suggest to mm Carthage as follows: work the river forest instead of the un-improved bg and the irrigated plains instead of the cow for 2 turns: this will give us maximum commerce while giving granary in 2, growth then after mm next turn with full granary.

Furiey

Sep 23, 2004, 03:09 PM

Got it.

Good to get CB from the hut

Been looking at the MM in Carthage, and will probably go with tao's suggestion as this will allow the growth to be delayed until after the granary, still give granary in 2, but maximise commerce whilst doing so.

Not feeling good today, so I'll probably play tomorrow rather than risking messing it all up.

Furiey

Sep 24, 2004, 03:53 PM

OK, starting to play now - not sure whether upping research now would have enough effect, or just be a waste of gold - any thoughts would be appreciated.

After the mm of Carthage we currently have +5gpt (for now) and we break even at 60% science, time to completion starts to drop at 80%, but as we grow and our research potential increases, so will our need for the lux slider.

Demiurge

Sep 24, 2004, 03:55 PM

I was running more than min research on writing, because with our growth (and once we road the tiles worked) research will accelerate and we will get writing much faster.Since we want to research as fast as possible this game I kept trying to turn this up but until the end of my turns, and due to having to use the lux slider, I was never able to get it beyond the 40-turn rate. At the moment however, we can turn it up and will shave 4 turns immediately off the research rate for writing. By cranking science up yo 90%, we lose -3 gpt. We currently have 40 gold in our coffers so we could probably leave it there for a while.

Edit: We must have cross posted Furiey because I just revisted the sav and was thinking along the same lines. I think I would up it for as long as you can. Every turn saved is one turn off our end date.

Furiey

Sep 24, 2004, 04:00 PM

Yes - that time between starting to reply and pressing the post button can be a real pain sometimes!

Cranking up the research rate now...

Furiey

Sep 24, 2004, 05:53 PM

2550 BC (Turn 0): mm Carthage as per tao’s suggestion, growth in 4, granary in 2, + extra 2gpt; after cross-posting with Demiurge, crank up the science slider to 90%, -3gpt, Writing in 22. Press button.

IBT: Pictish Barbarian moves N into hill, Worker finishes mining.

2510 BC (Turn 1): S Warrior S; Worker N; N Warrior SW onto mine (don’t want it pillaged).

IBT: Barb attacks Accipitridae, redlining Warrior and promoting it to Veteran.

2470 BC (Turn 2): Carthage: Granary>Worker (in 2), mm to give growth in 2; worker roads unroaded mine; N Warrior S, S Warrior S.

IBT: Zzzz

2430 BC (Turn 3): N Warrior S, S Warrior W to see how large Veii is (population 1).

IBT: Zzzzz

2390 BC (Turn 4): Cathage: Worker>Spartan Hoplite (in 5) and mm to give +4 food; New worker SE to un-improved BG river tile; old Worker S to unroaded mine; N Warrior SW (not spotted the barb camp yet); S Warrior SE. Now 26 gold, –4gpt.

IBT: Zzzzz

2350 BC (Turn 5): Old Worker roads; mm Carthage to give +3 food; new Worker mines; N Warrior SW (still no Barb camp in sight); S Warrior SE sees coast? Rome has dropped down to a population of 1 – they must have produced a Settler. They also have Iron Working, but we do not have enough to trade for it.

IBT: Zzzzz

2310 BC (Turn 6): We have changed from –4gpt to –1gpt? - nothing built, nothing grew; N Warrior NW (don’t want to go too far away with that one), spots Roman Warrior fortified on mountain NW of the yellow dot hill by the sheep; S Warrior SE – definitely coast.

IBT: Zzzzz

2270 BC (Turn 7): Carthage grows, set lux to 20%, Writing goes to 13 turns from 11; mm Carthage to give + 3 food, Hoplite in 1; but this needs lux at 30%, Writing in 15; S Warrior N; N Warrior NW; Old Worker SW to plains if we’re Settling there next, a road in that direction will help

IBT: Zzzzz

2230 BC (Turn 8): Carthage: Hoplite>Worker; fortify Hoplite; science back to 90% (Writing in 10); mm Carthage to increase commerce, maintain growth and production; 2nd Worker roads; 1st Worker roads; N Warrior NW; S Warrior N – Rome has a Spearman on the Wool just outside their territory by Veii. We are now Average militarily to Rome.

IBT: Zzzzz

2190 BC (Turn 9): mm Cathage for growth and Worker in 1; Up lux to 20% - Accipitridae has grown; S Warrior E – spots Barb camp; N Warrior NE – heading home.

IBT: Zzzzz

2150 BC (Turn 10): Carthage: Worker>Hoplite; Accipi: Temple>Colossus; leave Workers for Zwingli to set up for his turns; disperse Barb camp taking 25 gold – we can keep up our deficit research now! N Warrior E; research back to 90%.

Treasury: 39 gold - 2 gpt, Writing in 8 (90%)
Score: 100, Rome: 106

Post-turn: All 3 Workers are still to move; Carthage is set for a Hoplite, currently in 4, but by mm Carthage to grow in 3 we should get it in 3, but we must be due another Settler soon…

Zwingli (up next)
coletite
tao
Demiurge
Furiey (just played)

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/tao_SG004_BC2150_01.SAV)

Our world 2150 BC:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/tao_sgotm4_BC2150_map.jpg

Zwingli

Sep 24, 2004, 11:26 PM

Got it, and will try to get it turned around by tomorrow.

tao

Sep 25, 2004, 12:24 AM

I would mm Carthage to 10 shields. In the 5 turns till growth, I probably would build barracks and another worker. I also would build some archers instead of hoplites: hoploites fight barbarians, but we don't want to use them against Rome to avoid triggering our Golden Age.

Needless to say, that Accipitridae needs absolute priority. :)

Zwingli

Sep 25, 2004, 02:23 AM

On turn 6 Rome declared war and attacked Accipitridae with 2 warriors. Fortunately our two warriors held the city, and we are benifiting from war happiness. I'll complete the turns tomorrow.

Furiey

Sep 25, 2004, 06:02 AM

Grrr - I noticed that we were weak at one point to Rome, and wanted to build our defences a bit, hence the Hoplites. I must admit, I completely forgot about the risk of igniting our golden age with them though.

Zwingli

Sep 25, 2004, 08:43 PM

2150 BC (0)
I decide to MM Carthage for growth in 3, barracks in 5. In the long run this will give us more population and overall production.

2110 BC (1)
Workers continue to build improvements around Accipitridae. In order to conserve worker moves, I road 3 tiles with a single worker each then pool the workers to improve each tile (minimizes wasted moves from moving to unroaded tiles).

1950 BC (5)
Carthage barracks->worker. Carthage is MM to grow and complete worker in 1 turn

Rome has moved 2 warriors near Accipitridae. They might just be scouting, but I move another warrior into Carthage just in case.

IBT-Rome declares war and attacks Accipitridae. Our first warrior defending across a river barely wins, and the second Roman warrior fortifies on a hill.

1910 BC (6)
Carthage worker->warrior. I will MM Carthage to grow in 4, compromising between the need for population and the need for immediate military.

War happiness allows luxury tax to be lowered.

IBT- 2 Barb warriors move near 20k as if we didn't have enough problems.

1870 BC (7)
I join a worker to 20k.

IBT- We are attacked by a barb warrior and win. We learn Writing and start Literature at max science.

1830 BC (8)
Antium has a warrior showing as top defender. I take a chance to attack with our southern warrior, but lose. A mine has completed near Carthage such that a 3 turn archer/worker pump is possible.

IBT- Second barb warrior attacks our vet warrior and we win. A second barb warrior approaches from the north.

1790 BC (9)
Carthage archer->worker. MM Carthage to get worker and growth in 1 turn.
Hoplite attacks barb warrior and barely wins.

1750 BC (10)
Carthage worker->archer
Archer attacks Roman warrior on a hill and wins (-2 hp).

Post-Turn
I would try to make peace with Rome each turn as we want to trade Writing to them for Ironworking and their gold. After we complete Literature, I would continue research with Mapmaking so we can discover the other continent. We will need to found another coastal city so that Accipitridae doesn't have to waste production on galleys.

In terms of tile management, I would suggest keeping Carthage on the 3 turn growth cycle where we can produce an archer and a worker every 3 turns. To do this work enough forests for 10 spt and 3fpt for the first two turns to make an archer, then switch a forest to a plain grassland on the last turn for 8 spt and 4 fpt. The extra shields Carthage gets between turns will complete the worker. After Accipitridae naturally grows to size 7, I would join another worker to get it to size 8 and get the Colossus faster (we get more culture from completing the Colossus before Great Library).

You can use the same management maneuver to complete a settler in 3 turns coinciding with growth. We can use this to get our second coastal town after peace with Rome.

coletite (next)
tao
Demiurge
Furiey
Zwingli

tao

Sep 26, 2004, 03:32 AM

I and would suggest to merge 2 workers into Accipitridae next turn. And as soon as we can manage, let's build the settler for the coastal city claiming the incense to reduce lux tax. And once we have peace with Rome, we asap have to claim the sheep valley!!! The ivory city must wait, IMHO.

Demiurge

Sep 26, 2004, 08:39 AM

And as soon as we can manage, let's build the settler for the coastal city claiming the incense to reduce lux tax. And once we have peace with Rome, we asap have to claim the sheep valley!!! The ivory city must wait, IMHO.
I hope I'm wrong but I'm starting to doubt if we'll manage to get down to the sheep valley in time. The coastal site is important not only for the lux but for suicide galley production as mentioned before and I agree that should be a priority both for the lux and so that our first galley can come at or near to completing research on map making through a pre-build.

An early early war with the Romans is clearly not optimal and we'll probably start seeing their legionaries soon if they do indeed have the only iron source. A legion triggered GA when all we have is archers and warriors to defend. A scary proposition at this time, let's hope we can sue for peace before it comes to that.

Meanwhile, if we can, we might want to send down a few archers to try to stop any Roman settler from taking the mutton before we can get our own down there. With only two prime sites left in the south, I have a feeling they'll be coming for them soon.

Edit/add: Looked at the save a little closer. If we road to the spices with the worker Zwingli has positioned in the N we will have the spices in 11 turns when Carthage expands again. We need the coastal city soon for making contacts, but not for the lux anyway.

Zwingli

Sep 26, 2004, 12:10 PM

After making peace, the next player will have to raise luxury tax due to the end of negative war weariness (just something to keep in mind). If we can blockade the 4 tiles marked below with 1 unit each, we will secure the southern sheep site.

Furiey

Sep 26, 2004, 06:47 PM

The blockade is certainly worth a try - we only need 5 city sites, but they need to be good ones.

tao

Sep 26, 2004, 11:32 PM

The blockade is certainly worth a try - we only need 5 city sites, but they need to be good ones.Since this is only monarch, I'm more in favor of going south with about 5 archers and razing Antium to clip the Romans' wings.

coletite

Sep 27, 2004, 05:20 PM

Got it. Will try to play tonight, but it might be tomorrow morning.

Furiey

Sep 27, 2004, 05:42 PM

I've just noticed - so far the AI has build on RCP 5 around Rome...

As for razing Antium versus blockading, then if we are at war and are able then go for Antium (we are weak compared to Rome, so we may have a hoard of troops turn up soon) - good, once at peace however we can still blockade.

Demiurge

Sep 27, 2004, 06:07 PM

It's the weak part that makes me think that legionaries are on the way and that Ceasar will be wanting a rather lopsided peace deal when we're on speaking terms again. In his favor of course.

That was why I suggested sending down three archers to keep an eye out for a Roman settler pair. Since we are currently at war, and given the need to keep troops at home for defense I didn't think we could assemble a short stack to send down to Antium. Three archers, or even the two archers we'll have in 2 turns and a warrior, should be enough to take out a settler pair though.

Edit/add: Interesting observation Furiey. It looks like the fish/cattle site is at 5 too. I'd be willing to bet that they settle it next.

coletite

Sep 28, 2004, 02:40 PM

Pre-flight

Looks good.

IBT

…

1725 BC (1)

Joined worker to Acc
Joined worker to ACC

IBT

Carthage archer-worker

1700 BC (2)

Had to reduce science a bit to stem the loss of gold (-4pt, 13 in treasury)

IBT

Carthage worker-archer

1675 BC (3)

…

IBT

…

1650 BC (4)

…

IBT

Carthage arhcer-worker

1625 BC (5)

Had to drop sci again (-3, 10)
Lost an archer to a warrior

IBT

Lost a warrior to an archer (on a hill defending a worker)
Carthage worker-settler

1600 BC (6)

…

IBT

Redlined roman archer took out 3 barbs around the area

1575 BC (7)

…

IBT

…

1550 BC (8)

…

IBT

Carthage settler-archer

1525 BC (9)

…

IBT

…

1500 BC (10)

…

Post turns

The settler is heading toward the coastal city.
So far, I’ve only seen roman warriors and archers, but only one of each.

Furiey

Sep 28, 2004, 03:13 PM

Interesting, we get the colossus in 1 turn, but nobody else has started building anything yet.

Edit/Add: Well Caesar will now talk to us, but as he wants 11gpt and a Worker for Peace I think we might be at war a little longer. We are still weak though.

tao

Sep 28, 2004, 05:27 PM

Pre-turn assessment:
Literature is due in 8 turns, but e are wasting money, because we don't need 20% lux; 10% is enough and we can increase research to 70% giving now literature in 7 turns.
Rome is wheel and iron working ahead and strong compared to us. They want 13gpt for peace: very bad.

Since we moved Accipitridae from distance 5 to distance 4, the original coastal position at distance 5 is now bad. Therefore the settler has to change his route southwards.

Move Carthage worker west, micromanage Accipitridae for food and commerce (literature now in 6) and hit return.

(1) 1475BC: Carthage b archer s next; Accipitridae b Colossus and starts Palace as Great Library pre-build.
Archer kills Roman warrior, 2nd archer moves on mountain, Carthage archer moves to intercept Roman archer in its way towards our settler. Worker starts roading, hoplite and settler move sw.
Join 1 worker to Accipitridae, mm, Palace down from 28 to 22 turns. Move 2 workers to hill for mining, roading.
With Colossus' commerce, literature now in 4 turns.

(2) 1450BC: archer kills Roman elite archer, getting red-lined, settler and escort sw.

(3) 1425BC: Carthage b archer s next; archer moves south; settler goes south and reaches position; science down to 60%.

(4) 1400BC: Utica founded on the coast starting barracks (optimistic, might have to change it to archer); mm Carthage for food and commerce; science down to 50%.

IBT Rome offers peace for 6g, 8gpt: no; barb horseman approaches Utica.

(5) 1375BC: literature; what next? Carthage b archer s warrior. Archers move south and see Roman legion: bad. Start research on map making due in 13 at 80% and break-even.

IBT barb attacks and dies; legion attacks and kills archer: bad, because it starts Rome's Golden Age, good because they waste it in despotism.

(6) 1350BC: Carthage b warrior s worker; archer kills legion.

IBT we see an unescorted Roman settler

(7) 1325BC: Carthage b worker (to road the Accipitridae forest s archer.

IBT Roman archer kills our archer; barb horse approaches Utica.

(8) 1300BC: barb horse dies attacking Utica

(9) 1275BC: Carthage b archer s next; Archer kills Roman archer and is surrounded by 3 spears.

(10) 1250BC: Archer attacks spear settler escort on mountain an dies; colleague takes revenge and enslaves Roman workers.

Only now I switch Accipitridae to Great Library due in 18 turns.

Post-session musings:
There is 1 worker in Accipitridae to be joined next turn; please mm to work the irrigated plains.
The barracks in Utica can be switched to galley once we learn map making (via Big Picture). Please remember that we have differential naval movement!
There is a worker without job: optimists build road towards sheep valley, others may want to road the mountain 2sw of Accipitridae.
Soon (switch now??) we need a settler to claim the sheep valley. Rome is willing to make peace and pay some money, if we give literature. But we should ensure the valley site first!
Remember to mm Accipitridae, once one of its tiles was occupied by a barbarian or Roman!

Demiurge (next)
Furiey
Zwingli
coletite
tao (just played)

Demiurge

Sep 28, 2004, 05:43 PM

Got it. Thanks to the quick turn around I'll be able to get my turns in tomorrow. I'm flying to California on Thursday and won't return until Sunday so I'll be incommunicado for the weekend and then some.

Demiurge

Sep 28, 2004, 06:19 PM

There is a worker without job: optimists build road towards sheep valley, others may want to road the mountain 2sw of Accipitridae.
Soon (switch now??) we need a settler to claim the sheep valley.
I'm inclined to do both of these. You got rid of one Roman settler :goodjob: and there's still one we can see. Any more? I don't want to chance it. If I road toward the sheep and switch Carthage to a settler I can settle them in six turns. It seems every turn is precious to make sure we claim that site.

tao

Sep 29, 2004, 02:16 AM

I'm inclined to do both of these.And then we also need hoplite/settler to claim the ivory. Since we need 1st culture expansion to do so (temple) the earlier the better. In other words: peace is welcome, if the conditions are acceptable.

Furiey

Sep 29, 2004, 03:48 AM

I haven't done a 5CC before, but with the Romans rapidly growing compared to us, and having iron (most likely unlike us) I can see us being under a great deal of pressure for the sites that we want, than keeping them afterwards. We are weak to Rome, and as they grow I do not see that likely to change, so even if we do make peace now/soon I can see the legions coming back and more settlers claiming sites before our borders can expand enough to claim the North of the island. I'm not sure what we do to counterract it.

Settle our last sites quickly? - yes. But we also need to keep up unit production.
Perhaps even rush some culture in the new cities to start some border expansion quickly - but we can only pop rush at the moment, and are somewhat short of cash even if we could pay to speed things up.
Get the Great Library - well obviously, but we need to meet another civ to get other than the culture benefit, and that means a galley.
Longer term - do we clear our island of Rome (I don't see how our culture would expand enough to claim the lot), live with a larger neighbour, keep chipping away (not sure with what at the moment) to destroy their cities preventing our borders from expanding?

At the moment I'm struggling to see how we avoid being overrun by a larger, better equipped Rome.

tao

Sep 29, 2004, 04:59 AM

At the moment I'm struggling to see how we avoid being overrun by a larger, better equipped Rome.Don't worry, we will prevail. :)

Let me give you (and maybe others) some of my thinking. The settlement in the sheep valley is essential to keeping Roman attackers from Accipitridae. Located on a hill in a walled town, fortified defense 1 units (warriors, archers) have actual defense of 4. Add in the defensive freeshot of archers, and even legions will have a very hard time.
Once we know math, we will build catapults to add some offense capability to the defense. Our archers then can kill legions weakened by catapults.
It might be also a good idea to build a fortress on a mountain south of Accipitridae to stop intruders.
With map making, we will contact the civs to the west of us and the Great Library will give us techs.
IMHO as soon as we have GLib, we have to try to get the Great Lighthouse, because that would allow us to trade with the western continents: hopefully iron and horses for our spices and ivory.
Since this is monarch, our research should continue and beeline for republic. Once being republic and having 5 powerhouse cities, Rome will be easily manageable. And then we can use defense 3 hoplites without fear of premature triggering our GA.
After the Great Lighthouse, we must hurry library and colosseum, preferably in 1 turn each by first disbanding a warrior and then cash-hurrying. We have to have the cash ready or borrow it!
Once we settle the northern town, everything has to focus on completing its temple asap. I would even pop-rush the final shields. Of course, we also have to bring irrigation to it to grow to pop 12.
If we build culture (libraries, temples) in all our cities, our culture will be strong and I expect settlements of other civs in the north (they will definitely happen) to flip to us. We can accept and abandon, getting a free defender and making the other civ furious. Small wars now and then are good, because the AI is notorously weak in amphibious landings and we have the chance to get an occasional Great Leader.
I also see us clearing the continent from the Romans, probably once we have knights. We will build colonies on wool and iron and block the access to these areas for the other civs.

PS: Look at the Demographics (F11): We are #1 in population and gnp, #2 in production. :goodjob:

Furiey

Sep 29, 2004, 01:50 PM

So I'm not too far off in my thoughts of the way forward, it just at the moment it reminds me too much of my early games - before I learnt the importance of early expansion.

I am puzzled by the defender of strength 1 having an actual defence of 4 though, as my calculations give 2.25 in those circumstances - +50% for hills, +50% for walled town, +25% for fortified. What am I missing?

tao

Sep 29, 2004, 02:30 PM

I am puzzled by the defender of strength 1 having an actual defence of 4 though, as my calculations give 2.25 in those circumstances - +50% for hills, +50% for walled town, +25% for fortified. What am I missing?I suppose you missed nothing, but I mis-interpreted the numbers in Julian Egelstaff's Combat Results Tables as absolute strength, whereas they are only basis for a relative strength calculation. Sorry.

Demiurge

Sep 29, 2004, 07:44 PM

1250 bc (pre-turn)
MM Accipitridae to work irrigated plains and from forest to mined hill for commerce
Switch Carthage to settler
Move worker near Accipitridae to hill to begin roading toward sheep site
Move one warrior from Carthage to Accipitridae and move one warrior from Accipitridae to join archer on mountain. They will help guard workers roading toward sheep. Did not need to raise lux or lower science.

IBT: Barb horse appears near worker roading to sheep on hill. Barb camp somewhere near sheep site. Roman spear and settler move W into fog. Second Roman spear moves in direction of workers and Accipitridae. Roman archer fortifies.

1225 bc (turn 1)
Two southern archers move S and W to track settler pair. They have a head start. Will have to try and block them.
Archer and warrior near Accipitridae move to hill to defend worker who starts road
Two Roman slaves move to sheep hill
Worker in Accipitridae joins city, will have to raise lux, but now working every shield producing tile except mountains. GL in 16 turns from 19.
Raise lux to 20%, lower sci to 80%, map making in 6, at -3 gpt with 13 gold
Warrior from Carthage fortifies in Accipitridae
Worker roading Accipitridae forest moves to Carthage forest to road
Worker near Utica roads

IBT: Barb horse kills warrior protecting worker. Despite archer free shot, no damage to horse. Roman spear moves to mountain near Roman slaves. Roman settler pair moves to coastal spot S of sheep valley. Must be scared of our archers.

1200 bc (turn 2)
Carthage builds settler > archer
Archer on hill protecting worker fortifies. Hoping he can defend from barb horse.
Two Roman slaves join worker roading hill to escape Roman spear
One southern archer joins other archer on S mountain watching Roman settler pair on the coast
Settler moves to Accipitridae
Worker on Carthage forest roads
Since lux is up to 20%, send vet warrior to join archer on hill. One warrior still in Carthage

IBT: Barb horse attacks archer defending workers, horse dies. Roman spear moves toward Accipitridae. Still 4 turns away. Will have two archers there by then. Roman settle pair settle Pompeii on coast. Another barb horse moves toward Pompeii.

1175 bc (turn 3)
Two southern archers move within striking distance of Pompeii
Accipitridae warrior moves to mountain to slow advance of Roman spear
Workers complete road on hill, move native worker and archer to sheep hill
Worker connects Utica, moves to plain to irrigate and road
Settler moves toward sheep site

IBT: Barb horse moves toward Pompeii, Roman spear continues toward Accipitridae

1150 bc (turn 4)
Carthage builds archer > next, MM to get +4 food and growth in one
Move Carthage archer to Accipitridae
Settler continues toward sheep site, will arrive next turn
Worker on sheep hill roads, two Roman slaves move to join him
Warrior on mountain near Accipitridae begins moving back
Worker on plain can't irrigate. Should have checked that tile first. It is not a river tile. Worker roads.
Two archers attack reg spear in Pompeii. First redlines and dies promoting spear to 2 hp. Second archer attacks, burns Pompeii gaining 7 gold.
Ceasar is a little more willing to accept peace now. Since our settler is due to arrive at sheep site next turn, accept peace for literature and 3 gold on our end. Rome gives iron working and the wheel on theirs. They also know map making. Needless to say Ceasar is pretty furious with us.
A bonus is that the gold we got from Pompeii will allow us to continue 80% research and map making is due in two turns.

IBT: Barb horse attacks archer that defeated Pompeii promoting him to elite. Roman spear starts back toward Roman territory.

1125 bc (turn 5)
Elite archer moves to find barb hut near sheep valley
Warrior moves back into Accipitridae
Archer in Accipitridae moves toward Utica, then north to find hut up there
Settler moves to sheep site and archer defending workers joins him
Worker completes roading Carthage forest moves to next
Science reduced to 50%, map making in one, +7 gpt

1100 bc (turn 6)
We learn map making, change build in Utica to galley via big picture, due in two
Set research to poly at 80%, due in 6 at -3 gpt
Carthage builds archer > settler due in 3 turns with growth
Archer in Carthage fortifies for MP duty
Romans are building the GL
Elite archer in south continues toward barb camp
Archer continues through Utica and moves north hunting
Build Leptis Magna in sheep valley > barracks. Archer fortifies
Workers complete road on sheep hill connecting Leptis Magna. Native worker mines, two Roman slaves move to sheep on plains
Warrior in Accipitridae fortifies
Worker on Carthage forest roads

1075 bc (turn 7
Utica builds galley > next. There are two barb galleys moving around between Utica and crossing point
MM Carthage to work two roaded forests to get growth and settler in two
Archer continues north hunting
Elite archer moves into Leptis Magna, send vet archer toward barb camp
Roman slaves road sheep on plains
Worker finishes roading plains near Utica and moves to Carthage roaded grass to begin roading north toward ivory
Galley moves out of Utica and starts heading south

IBT: Two barb horses appear from the north

1050 bc (turn 8)
Archer in north kills one barb horse
Worker north moves south until barb threat is eliminated
Vet archer destroys barb camp. Again just when we needed the gold to continue max research. Now at 31 gold at -3 gpt.

IBT: Barb horse attacks northern archer, promotes him to elite

1025 bc (turn 9)
Carthage builds settler < archer (to hunt barbs in north)
Roman slaves finish roading sheep, move to grass.
Worker roading Carthage forest moves north to begin irrigating toward Utica and ivory city
Worker evading barb horse moves north again to begin roading toward ivory site
Galley moving south spies two barb galleys, destroying one from sea tile, has to move in to coast with last move point. Now at 1 hp.
Archer in the north fortifies to heal

IBT: Barb galley loses promoting our galley to vet

1000 bc (turn 10)
Vet archer moves back into Leptis Magna
Roman slaves irrigate grass so that sheep on plains can be irrigated

Our world at 1000 bc:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/1000bc3.jpg

Post-turn:
I left the settler heading to the ivory and the two workers up north for the next player to move. I started on poly researching toward republic.

We are now at peace, the Romans are furious towards us and are up HBR. I don't see horses on our continent and the Romans don't have any so I would guess our continent is horse-free and we don't have iron.

There is at least one barb camp to the north. I would suspect one is near the ivory.

I started an archer build in Carthage to hunt barbs north but it could be switched to library to help speed research if the next player wants to.

Playing order
Furiey (next)
Zwingli
coletite
tao
Demiurge (just played)

tao

Sep 30, 2004, 12:18 AM

Good to hear that you teached Rome a lesson. I was astonished to read that you researched "polytheism towards republic", but pacified when looking at the save: we are researching philosophy. :)

Shouldn't we switch Carthage to hoplite, worker (for Utica)? The hoplite would be a better defense for the northern settlement.

And also good to see that we have a galley potentially making contact west next turn. :)

We definitely are on our way.

Zwingli

Sep 30, 2004, 12:37 AM

I think it would be a good idea to switch Leptis Magna to a temple before barracks in order to establish a claim on the nearby mountain range. If we can start building catapults, the city may not need a barracks for some time and we can save on the upkeep costs in the meantime.

Otherwize we are in great shape, and look to be headed for an early republic. Hopefully the first galley can make contact. :)

Demiurge

Sep 30, 2004, 05:00 AM

I was astonished to read that you researched "polytheism towards republic", but pacified when looking at the save: we are researching philosophy. :)
No matter how much care you take, those typos always slip in. Must be too used to heading straight for monarchy. :lol:

Furiey

Sep 30, 2004, 11:55 AM

OK, got it.

Will have a look tonight, but will probably not play tonight as I'm still not over the flu and it's been a long day at work. I finish early tomorrow so will probably play then.

And also good to see that we have a galley potentially making contact west next turn.Not having played this GOTM, I gather from this that the sea lane is straight west then?

Furiey

Oct 01, 2004, 07:53 AM

OK mad-bax has posted this in the maintenance thread:
In an attempt not to be too predictable, the changes I make to previous GOTM games will be varied. It is allowed to use your previous map knowledge, and it is allowed to read the spoilers from the original game - since it is not a practicable proposition to prevent it. You are NOT allowed to discuss spoiler knowledge with your team mates, but you may only use it on your turns.so I don't expect an answer about where the sea lane is. Saying that though, with differential naval movement, straight west from our current position looks good, one move into Sea, one move into ocean, then see what we can see - I don't suppose I'll be lucky enough to be able to go sea and then coast to safety though. I've not done a lot with differential movement, so spent last night reading up on it. Hopefully I get it right.

tao

Oct 01, 2004, 08:05 AM

Differential movement makes a big difference. For now, our galleys can safely travel sea(2)-ocean(1)-sea(2)-coast.

If (once) we get the Great Lighthouse, we can safely cross 6 ocean tiles. Tremendeous.

Furiey

Oct 01, 2004, 09:48 AM

You'll all be pleased to hear:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/tao_SGOTM4_BC0975_Persia.jpg

S-O-S-C did it!

One thing we haven't discussed though is our approach to trading. They will give both HBR and Mysticism for Literature and 14 gold, but how much trading do we do? We obviously want their spare horses as soon as we can get them.

tao

Oct 01, 2004, 10:14 AM

S-O-S-C did it! Great.

One thing we haven't discussed though is our approach to trading. They will give both HBR and Mysticism for Literature and 14 gold, but how much trading do we do? We obviously want their spare horses as soon as we can get them.IMHO "good" trading is important. Of course, we want iron and horses asap. OTOH we don't want to speed the AIs tech pace towards Wonders we want to claim (e.g. map making, Great Lighthouse; monarchy, Hanging Gardens). What we need are more contacts to increase the Great Library effect (assuming we get it).

Zwingli

Oct 01, 2004, 10:58 AM

It appears that Persia may be alone on their own island since they have no contacts to trade us. On the other hand, contact trading may be put off until Navigation in this GOTM (map trading is obviously delayed). When Philosophy comes in, it will probably be the best tech to trade (to both Rome for their gold and to Persia for what we can get) as it won't threaten any wonders and will speed progress toward Republic.

Furiey

Oct 01, 2004, 11:07 AM

Persia is not alone:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/tao_SGOTM4_BC0925_India.jpg

I think contact trading must be delayed.

I didn't trade techs by the way - we get the Great Library in 5 turns (probably).

Furiey

Oct 01, 2004, 12:58 PM

1000 BC (Turn 0): Umm and ahhh a bit as it will delay completion for 1 turn, but eventually change Archer in Cathage to Hoplite – I’ll have to use the fortified Archer for the Settler until it gets there. Don’t think there are any Barb Horsemen about, so move workers to road (avoiding the forest for speed) towards the next city site. Move Settler as well. At the moment they are unprotected but unless Barb horsemen turn up, safe for now… Drop research to 50% still giving Philosophy in 2 but +7gpt. Don’t change Leptis Major yet – it won’t finish the Barracks for 16 turns currently, so plenty of time to change later, we might even suddenly need walls! Press button.

IBT: Roman Archer goes E; Pisa is built at RCP 5 from Rome completing the Roman city ring.

975 BC (Turn 1): Drop research to 40% giving Philosophy in 1, +12gpt; Northern Workers road; Settler (joined by woken 4/5 Archer in case of Barbs) continues to city site; Galley heads W – Sea, Ocean and yes – Sea, Coast - we are safe by Pasgadae and contact Persia. We can’t trade for their horses, nor contacts, but can get both Mysticism and HBR for Literature and 14 gold – I waver a lot, I would normally take it, but we get the Great Library in 6 moves (only Rome is building it) and will get HBR from that, so if we want to keep the tech pace as slow as possible, and as no contacts are available at this time – no deal.

IBT: Persia asks us to leave – we say we will.

950 BC (Turn 2): Complete Philosophy, start CoL (80%) due in 9, -3gpt; Carthage: Hoplite>Worker to time with growth; Slaves complete irrigating and road; Worker irrigates sheep; Settler and Archer N; new Hoplite follows after Settler; Galley goes N around coast (C-S-C) and spots brown border, no contact yet though; Rome also now has Mysticism, so we will get that as well once we get the GL..

IBT: Zzzz

925 BC (Turn 3): Carthage: Worker>Library; Worker road towards new city site; Settler/Archer move to position (no sign of Barb camp); Hoplite follows; new Worker heads for Utica; Galley Moves S-S-C and discovers Madras (brown). The Indians also have HBR and Mysticism, but we are up Philosophy, Literature and Mapmaking, no contacts are available and they have no spare resources.

IBT: Ghandi asks us to leave – we say we will.

900 BC (Turn 4): Fortify Archer and build Theveste on Tundra yellow dot, set Temple; Barb camp spotted on Southern Ivory; Workers and Hoplite move to hill S of Theveste; Galley S-S-C goes W; Worker by Utica mines; Leptis Magna Worker goes to Utica; Slave Workers go to mine hill; Accipitridae is the top city in the world! Virus scanner decides it’s time to do a full system scan – I know it’s necessary, but it always seems to pick an inconvenient time!

IBT: Zzzzz

875 BC (Turn 5): Workers start roading hill S of Theveste; Hoplite moves to Thevest; Theveste Archer mover towards Barb camp; Slaves mine; Galley moves – India will have spare horses (I can see 2) once they connect them. Both India and Persia have furs, again once they connect them.

IBT: Persians start the Oracle (Indians are already building).

850 BC (Turn 6): Disperse Barb camp with Elite Archer; Hoplite in Theveste fortifies; worker reaching Utica finishes mine; Utica Worker moves through Utica; galley continues S-S-C.

IBT: Romans start the Pyramids as a result of us building the Great Library in Accipitidae.

825 BC (Turn 7): Accipitridae: Great Library>Great Lighthouse; Utica: Galley>Temple; Our Galley sights the Northern tip of Indian territory; Elite Archer fortifies to heal; Workers move to improve round Theveste; Utica Worker moves to improve road link from Utica to Theveste; 2nd Galley moves towards crossing point.

IBT:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/tao_SGOTM4_BC0825_Techs.jpg

800 BC (Turn 8): drop research to 70%, still CoL in 3, +1gpt; healed Elite Archer NE to expose tip of tundra, Theveste workers mine; Utica Worker Roads; 2nd Galley continues to crossing point; Galley makes slow trip around N Indian point. Decide to change Leptis Magna to Temple after all (barracks due in 2 now) in case I forget next turn.

IBT: Zzzzz

775 BC (Turn 9): Archer moves back to Theveste workers; Utica worker starts mining; Galley moves around point; 2nd Galley approaches crossing; drop science to 60%, +4gpt, CoL due in 2; mm Carthage to give max commerce with growth 1 turn after the library to allow another Worker to be built as it grows

IBT: Zzzzz

750 BC (Turn 10): Elite Archer moves towards Theveste Workers who now road; 2nd Galley moves 1 coast tile to crossing point; Galley continues around India;

Treasury: 56 gold, +4 gpt, CoL in 1 (60%)
Scores: India=250, Rome=235, Us=205, Persia=202

Post-turn: 2nd Galley still has movement points, but if it’s also crossing I was intending to take it S round Persian/Indian continent it can wait for next time then cross safely. Rome has just connected some extra wool and have 113 gold, India 82 gold, Persia 9 gold. We are up Philosophy on all, Map Making and Literature on Persia and India. CoL is due in 1 turn, Great Lighthouse in 16. I have been building a lot of infrastructure/culture to expand our borders, but am concerned we need more units. Carthage could go back to units after the library although a Worker would align with growth. I leave 1 Worker unused by Utica to do with as the next player will. If we want to trade for Rome’s wool a road connecting to Pisae may be useful.

Zwingli (up next)
coletite
tao
Demiurge
Furiey (just played)

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/tao_SG004_BC0750_01.SAV)

tao

Oct 01, 2004, 06:42 PM

Great progess. Looking at the demographics gives confidence. The 20k calculator spreadsheed says we will reach 9765 culture points by 2050. ;)

Regarding the 2nd galley: should we leave it at its current position to block the passage for the other civs? I don't see another S-O-S way across.

Furiey

Oct 01, 2004, 06:47 PM

Good idea about the Galley - I hadn't thought of that, I can't see another route across there either.

Zwingli

Oct 01, 2004, 09:39 PM

Got it. I'm considering trading Philosophy just to get the excess gold out there (for eventual rushing of buildings in Accipitridae), but wil hold off on all other trades to slow the tech pace.

Furiey

Oct 02, 2004, 04:48 AM

I was considering that, watching their gold stocks climb each turn and delaying another turn each time thinking we don't need it yet and we'll get more for it next turn...

Of couse at some point they'll find something else to do with it, and we also run the risk that they'll all start demanding stuff off us. We need a bit more time before another war with Rome in particular, hopefully not until we're out of Despotism and we have a good number of Hoplites defending. By the time we finish the Lighthouse we should be a Republic and we'll need the cash for rushing then. I suppose a Library in Accipitridae should be the first priority to get the culture doubling as soon as possible.

Zwingli

Oct 02, 2004, 02:09 PM

750 BC (0)
Move worker to improve Carthage. Will focus on improving our number of units.

730 BC (1)
We learn Code of Laws-> Republic
Carthage Library-> Hoplite
Galleys explore.

690 BC (3)
Leptis completes temple and starts courthouse.

670 BC (4)
Carthage Hoplite->Hoplite
The price for Philosophy to Rome has dropped to 98g (they are researching it), so I sell before it drops further. Hold off on selling to the other landmass.

650 BC (5)
The southern galley spots two barb galleys.

IBT- Our southern Galley is sunk by barbs.

610 BC (7)
Carthage Hoplite->Hoplite
The western galley's exploration indicates that Persia and India are the only ones of the other landmass.

550 BC (10)
Rome has used an eastern galley to found Virconium north of Carthage.
Utica Temple->worker
Carthage Hoplite->Worker

coletite (next)
tao
Demiurge
Furiey
Zwingli (just played)

Zwingli

Oct 02, 2004, 02:23 PM

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4_550bc_galley.JPG
There are coast tiles visible under the fog to the west, and the galley can reach them safely using the indicated path next turn.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4_550bc_overview.JPG
1. Theviste, Utica, and Leptis require irrigation in order to reach their full potential under Republic (due in 9). The blue path should be irrigated in order to boost growth in Theviste and Utica. The forest at beginning of the path will be chopped after next turn, and the shields can contribute to whatever is built in Carthage after the worker.

2. In order to prevent Rome from keeping legions on the mountains during the next war, we will eventually need to fortify hoplites on either the purple line or the green positions in the south. With enough catapults we can farm leaders at Leptis as Roman units cross the flat lands.

3. The temple in Theviste can be whipped in 4 turns to get some culture and the ivory before the revolt. I have started some workers because Accipitridae will starve about 2 population during the Anarchy (depending on the severity) and we will need to rebuild the population (if we send the city into riot every other turn, we can minimize pop loss during Anarchy without risking the loss of the ancient temple).

4. After bulding the Great Lighthouse, we will have a large amount of sea and ocean to explore. I suppose after the Lighthouse, Accipitridae can start building a library, and rush it after Anarchy. Alternatively, it can start a palace in the hopes that someone will research Monarchy (Hanging Gardens) or Contruction (Great Wall) before the prebulid runs out and rush the library in 1 turn later.

tao

Oct 02, 2004, 03:40 PM

3. The temple in Theviste can be whipped in 4 turns to get some culture and the ivory before the revolt.Good thinking!

I have started some workers because Accipitridae will starve about 2 population during the Anarchy (depending on the severity) and we will need to rebuild the population (if we send the city into riot every other turn, we can minimize pop loss during Anarchy without risking the loss of the ancient temple).
OTOH the Great Lighthouse needs a harbor to give us access to Persian horses and furs. Therefore I would build a harbor instead of a worker and mine the bonus grasland and chop a forest. Irrigation for Theveste IMHO can wait a little longer.

Furiey

Oct 02, 2004, 05:06 PM

I too noticed the route to the new coast - the coastal tiles show up well with a clean map. With a Harbour and Great Lighthouse we'll be able to trade with this continent as well.

I notice that the Vikings have built the Pyramids and the Keltoi the Oracle. Persia and Indians are also now building the Great Lighthouse which we should get before we revolt.

tao

Oct 04, 2004, 04:01 AM

Since coletite (despite having been online) did not post her "got it" within 24 hours, she is skipped for this turn. Please: this game may well go till the 17th or 18th century and thus we should proceed without undue delays.

Pre-turn: Zwingli left the elite archer undecided next to Viroconium. We have Roman spear/settler near Leptis Magna. I suppose Rome will declare war if we ask them to leave. But we want to delay the next fight until we are stronger. Therefore the archer decides to do nothing but fortify. Utica I switch from worker to harbor (currently due in 16), because we want to get Persian/Indian trades once we have the Great Lighthouse.

IBT Xerxes ask our galley to leave and we agree. Caesar wants 24g and after short thinking we decline. He declares war of course.

(1) 530BC: Carthage b worker s archer.
Our elite archer destroys Viroconium sinking a Roman galley, getting 1g, not loosing a single hit-point. Worker joins lumbering and 10 shield spped archer to next turn. We call back our southern workers. Northern worker moves to ivory.
Leptis Magna is switched from courthouse to barracks due next turn. With 5 spt, it can build warriors in 2 turns and we need all the defense for the looming Roman attack. MM Carthage to speed growth. Move workers to Utica forests.
Our galley finds a jungle-infested island southwest of Persia.

IBT the Roman settler party moves north thru the mountains; our elite archer will go for them.

(2) 510BC: Carthage b archer s next. Leptis Magna b barracks s warrior. Southern workers start irrigating since no Romans in sight. Northern worker starts roading ivory. Utica workers start lumbering. Galley circles island. 3rd archer arrives in Leptis Magna.

(3) 490BC: galley sails

IBT 2 Roman archers (no legions!) appear, but our workers are done irrigating.

(4) 470BC: Carthage b archer s warrior. Leptis Magna b warrior s next. 4th archer arrives in LM. The island is 4 tiles of jungle, no visible resources yet, but I suppose it may show rubber or coal later.
Hurry temple in Theveste; mm Accipitridae to get +1 food; we will need it during anarchy.

IBT 3 legions + 1 additional Roman archer appears; 2 forest tiles near Utica chopped.

(5) 450BC: Carthage b warrior s worker; Theveste b temple s warrior (to guard the north against barbarian camps).
Our elite archer kills Roman spear and we welcome 2 more slaves.

(6) 430BC: Great Lighthouse in Accipitridae, s library; Carthage b worker s archer; Leptis Magna b warrior s next. We kill 1 Roman archer on the mountain S of Leptis Magna. Our galley moves to westmost sea tile and will start its run west next turn. Northern worker moves to bg for mining. Science can be reduced to 70%. Rome still refuses to talk.

(7) 410BC: Our galley contacts an annoyed Bismarck knowing mathematics lacking philosophy. We are strong compared to him.

Caesar is agreeing to peace and willing to pay 37g, but we have 5 archers, 2 warriors in LM and thus I don't do it yet.

We can pop-rush the Utica harbor next turn, means we are able to trade in 2 turns. Currently we learn republic in 2 turns also, i.e. we can't do trades before revolting. Thus I decide to lower research to learn a
republic in 3 turns.

IBT we loose 1 warrior in LM, but the Romans loose 2 archers, 1 legion.
Great Library gives us mathematics.

(8) 390BC: Carthage b archer s temple; LM switched from warrior to catapult.
We contact an Ottoman galley NW of our ship and we meet cautious Suleyman. He obviously "gave" us mathematics and knows construction.

Caesar is willing to give 39g for peace, but we have 2 elite archers and decide to try our luck with a stack of 1 legion and 2 archers on a mountain: vet archer attacks, kills legion, promotes to elite. Elite archer attacks and Great Leader Hamilcar appears.

What to do? Save him for Great Wall or Hanging Gardens? Or build an army for enabling Heroic Epic and higher leader probability in the future? I decide for Heroic Epic, which also gives 4 culture at 200 shields: a bargain.

Fighting continues: elite archer kills archer getting red-lined. Send warrior to protect him against being killed by Roman archer.

Pop-rush harbor in Utica. Science down to 40%.

IBT: legion dies attacking LM

(9) 370BC: Utica b harbor s library (might switch to aqueduct or market later). Theveste culture expands and we have ivory.

We build an archer army and it kills Roman archer enabling us Heroic Epic.

Galley continues exploring south using sea and ocean tiles for faster progress; priority is on contacts, not learning coastal terrain; that can wait.

Caesar is willing to give 40 (of 41) gold and Ravenna. We agree to peace, accept Ravenna and abandon it, Caesar can't get more furious. :D
Lux up to 20% because the war is over.

Xerxes gives furs, horses, 31g for mathematics. (He is researching philosophy).

IBT we learn republic and revolt via Big Picture: 3 turns of anarchy: good. mm our cities. Because we accumulated 6 food and have the extra luxury, Accipitridae will not loose any pop. :)

(10) 350BC: Our galley sees orange border (Ottoman and green (Greek?) border.

Post turn summary:
Great Lighthouse, contact with Germany, Ottoman, Greece next turn. Establishing a trade for furs and horses. Learning republic and with 2 (of only 3) anarchy turns left, we will rock. Getting a Great Leader building an army enabling Heroic Epic. Clipping Caesar's wings (again), getting 2 slaves and raizing 1 of his cities. I'm happy with these 10 turns. :)

2050AD culture forecast (current buildings only): 11.397

Thoughts on how to continue:
We will finish the library in Accipitridae asap and join another worker for reaching pop 12. The money we can get from the other civs if necessary. We can hope for the Ottomans (or some other civ) to finish the Great Wall before monarchy is learned; that should give us the chance to get the Hanging Gardens after Heroic Epic in Accipitridae. (Note: HG will trogger our Golden Age and we will get a kick-start in the Middle Ages.) Thus we don't research now but just accumulate money for hurrying culture buildings (colosseum, cathedral) or infrastructure (harbor, market) in Accipitridae.

Demiurge (next)
Furiey
Zwingli
coletite (skipped)
tao (just played)

Demiurge

Oct 04, 2004, 07:57 AM

I'm back and I have it.

I'm happy with these 10 turns. :)
As you should be. :goodjob: Looks like you took some controlled risks and they paid off. I'm at work so I was just able to skim your post. I'll check in after I get a chance to look at it more closely and check out the save.

Zwingli

Oct 04, 2004, 09:46 AM

It looks like having two strong cities is paying dividends. For once we have good combat luck too, although I suspect the mountain defence bonus and archer bombard helped fend off the regular legions. :thumbsup:

tao

Oct 04, 2004, 10:16 AM

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/tao_sgotm4_lm.jpg

This is more detail on the battle for Leptis Magna.

On the left is the situation 410BC:
LM has elite archer, 4 vet archers, 3 warriors.
Roman stack south of LM is 2 legions, 3 archers; lower right stack is 1 legion, 2 archers; all Roman units are regular ones.

Fighting:
Rome attacks; archer dies, archer kills warrior, archer kills warrior getting red-lined, legion dies promoting our archer to elite.

On the right is the situation next turn 390BC:
LM has 2 elite archers, 3 archers, 2 warriors (1 just built).

Fighting:
We attack the legion and 2 archers on the right: vet archer kills legion and elitizes, ellite archer kills archer produces Great Leader Hamilcar who builds an army, elite archer kills archer and is red-lined, warrior moves to protect him.

Next turn, we fill our army with 3 archers (I was pondering to put in only 2, but did not want to take any unnecessary risk) and kill another archer enabling Heroic Epic.

Furiey

Oct 04, 2004, 02:53 PM

:goodjob: Absolutely excellent!

Contacts, a Leader, only 3 turns of Anarchy and getting one up on Caesar!

coletite

Oct 04, 2004, 05:05 PM

Sorry. I was hammered with school work this weekend. I intended to get the save yesterday, but for some reason I couldn't download it. I should have posted to let everyone know what was going on... in fact, I usually do. Why I didn't this time is anybody's guess.

Thanks for skipping me. I will be sure to be expedient the next time around.

Oh and no biggie, but I'm a he.

Furiey

Oct 04, 2004, 05:10 PM

Oh and no biggie, but I'm a he.I must admit I was a bit surprised to see the she, but mainly because I'm used to being in the minority here!

tao

Oct 04, 2004, 05:12 PM

Oh and no biggie, but I'm a he.Sorry. :blush: mad-bax made you a "she" when he send me a pm about putting you in the team. ;)

tao

Oct 04, 2004, 06:31 PM

LM is a good city in a good location: for now. But it also has significant draw-backs: food is max 18, 21 with railroads. It has no sea access.

If we move it 2 tiles southwest, we get a location with 32 food (38 with railroads) and sea access allowing to build naval units.

I do not propose abandoning it immediately; it is very good for now. I just want to instigate some thinking. Should we invest in LM's infrastructure, or just use it for unit production with the possibility of abandoning it once Rome is taken care off?

Zwingli

Oct 04, 2004, 08:37 PM

I think it is unlikely we are going to lose the game, so it is a question of whether moving LM would let us win faster or not.

Winning faster involves getting faster culture in our 20k city, which is mainly a function of tech rate and great leaders at this point. The main difference from moving the city would probably come from getting to the modern era (for research lab and wonders) more quickly after all of the middle age wonders are exhausted. It will be worthwhile to move the city in the industrial age when rails make redevelopment fast, but in the meantime the first level improvements might have enough time to pay off (i.e. market and library but not university, cathedral or bank).

Demiurge

Oct 05, 2004, 09:11 PM

350 bc (pre-turn)
Everything looks good. For my turns I'll focus on getting the heroic epic started in Accipitridae, and infrastructure in the other cities. Hit return.

330 bc (turn 1)
Galley moves S
Anarchy is over next turn
Workers on mountain near Accipitridae finish road, start mine
Fortify troops in and around Leptis Magna

IBT: We learn polytheism and construction < currency at 0%, hoping to get it from GL, saving cash for rushing improvements in Accipitridae

310 bc (turn 2)
Change govt. to Republic, MM cities
We don't have enough cash to rush the library so trade philosophy to Germany for 12 gold. The most we can get for it from any civ lacking it. We now have enough to rush the library in Accipitridae
Switch Utica to aqueduct
Switch Theveste to aqueduct from warrior
Galley continues S
Various workers complete tasks. Continue irrigating toward Theveste. Chop spice forest near Utica to speed aqueduct build
Lux remains at 20%, sci at 0%, +36 gpt

290 bc (turn 3)
Accipitridae completes library < Heroic Epic
Galley continues S and SW around southern edge of Greek continent
Carthage grows, MM for +5 fpt, growth in 4
MM Accipitridae from max growth to max shield production Heroic Epic from 16 turns to 10 turns
Leptis Magna grows, MM for growth

270 bc (turn 4)
Utica workers complete chop, send one to Accipitridae to get it up to pop 12
Galley continues W around Greece continent
Workers near Theveste complete irrigation, MM for growth

IBT: Persian galley appears off coast of Utica

250 bc (turn 5)
Galley begins N journey around Greece continent
Carthage temple due in one, MM for growth
MM Leptis Magna for production, still get growth in two

IBT: Persian galley near Utica moves north

230 bc (turn 6)
Carthage completes temple < horse, MM for production, growth in one
Join worker to Accipitridae
Galley continues north, spies coast to the west
Utica grows, MM for growth

IBT: Xerxes establishes embassy in our capital, another Persian galley appears near Utica

210 bc (turn 7)
Galley crosses to coast, see dark green borders, probably Keltoi
Worker irrigates regular mined grass near Accipitridae so that we can work mountain when mine complete
Leptis Magna grows, MM for growth
Theveste grows next turn, MM for production

IBT: Both Persian galleys move north

190 bc (turn 8)
Galley continues west, meet Keltoi, technologically backwards
Carthage horse due in one, MM for growth
Theveste grows, MM

170 bc (turn 9)
Carthage builds horse < worker. Send horse to NE peninsula to check for barbs
Accipitridae worker completes irrigation, MM for zero growth, max shields

150 bc (turn 10)
Carthage builds worker < horse
Leptis Magna builds library < horse

Our world at 150 bc:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/150bc.jpg

Post-turn:
I started building horses in case we can't trade for them at some point. We should probably continue building those so that we have some on hand.

I discontinued research during my turns to start building a treasury for rushing improvements. We are now at 327 gold.

The Romans are trying to move a settler north by land. I have been blocking them with the spartan hoplites.

There are two Persian galleys off our coast. I would assume they are trying to settle the northern peninsula and/or the unclaimed ivory in the north.

I'm starting to wonder if we shouldn't get a couple wars started overseas. The Persians established an embassy with us and we could get them involved in a war with the Indians if we want.

If we establish an embassy with the Greeks, we could probably get currency, all their gold and an MA with them against the Germans and Ottomans to stir things up there as well.

I contacted the Keltoi on what I assume is the last continent. Our galley should make contact with the Vikings and Babylonians if I'm correct.

Playing order
Furiey (next)
Zwingli
coletite
tao
Demiurge (just played)

Zwingli

Oct 05, 2004, 10:39 PM

It looks like military support for Republic is altered in this GOTM, so the aqueducts are good (increase support). Here are a few points to consider before starting the next turn:

1. Carthage can be micromanaged for 15 spt to produce a horse or hoplite every other turn, and after growth both Leptis Magna and Utica can make 10 spt.

2. War with Rome will probably come again shortly. I would build catapults out of LM and Utica once they reach 10spt to fend off the legions. If there are enough catapults by my turn, I might consider starting a war just to fish for leaders with our 3 elite archers ;).

3. If you establish an embassy with Greece or the Ottomans, take a note of their production and progress on the Great Wall. This could influence our build decisions if we can break the wonder cascade.

tao

Oct 05, 2004, 11:52 PM

War with Rome will probably come again shortly. I would build catapults out of LM and Utica once they reach 10spt to fend off the legions. If there are enough catapults by my turn, I might consider starting a war just to fish for leaders with our 3 elite archers ;).I agree. Our peace treaty is for 9 turns, unless Rome declares earlier. Therefore I would not block Roman spear/settler pairs. Let them go thru our lands, they can't leave it before 10 turns are over. And we can start the war by making more slaves. :)

Why are you chopping the Utica forest? Growth to 7 will not come before the aqueduct is finished? IMHO we urgently have to build 2 mines for LM.

And if we can squeeze in a harbor at Accipitridae, we can increase our spt even further by working another mountain.

Once LM is at 10 spt, we should build some warriors. Once we can trade for India's as yet unconnected 2nd iron and know feudalism, warriors can be upgraded to 4.2.1 Persian Mercenaries in GOTM.

Culture projection 2050 (including Heroic Epic): 16.765

Zwingli

Oct 06, 2004, 01:23 PM

Setting up for a war with Rome, it would be a good idea to post 1 hoplite each on the purple marked mountain tiles and the army on the blue circle mountain. Rome will ignore the high defense hoplites and army, passing over flat land where our catapults in Leptis Magna can hit the incoming units, leaving them vulnerable to our elite archers. As an added bonus, the army will automatically use ZOC to damage passing units, further increasing our defensive advantage.

Furiey

Oct 06, 2004, 01:48 PM

OK, got it.

I'll try and play tonight, but only just got back from work and need to get some food first.

First thoughts: If I'm to sneak in a Harbour in Accipitridae I need to make sure that there's enough to rush it, at least after disbanding a Warrior first to get some shields in the box (not done the calcs on how much that is yet) once we complete Heroic Epic. So keep research down to give sufficient gold, then we have the choice of keeping research low and relying on the Great Library, or increasing research to get currency, I guess as we want to slow research we keep it low.

I also notice that the Great Wall is also buildable in 3 turns - If no one has it with 1 to go, is it worth switching from Heroic Epic to get the Great Wall and break any prebuilds? No other Wonders are on offer at the moment. This would leave us clear to start Hanging Gardens without any other prebuilds hanging around. We could start on Heroic Epic following the Great Wall.

Pity the Persians have managed to cross to our continent - we lose our trading monopoly :(

After that units for upgrade, and set up ready for the next Roman war...

I'll look at the save more once I've eaten.

Zwingli

Oct 06, 2004, 02:30 PM

If I'm to sneak in a Harbour in Accipitridae I need to make sure that there's enough to rush it, at least after disbanding a Warrior first to get some shields in the box
Right now a harbor won't help us much because the second mountain is not mined yet (once it is mined or a plains tile is switched from irrigation to mine, the harbor will gain us an extra net shield). If you want to do a 1 turn rush, do a courthouse which might recover 2 shields and gold from corruption. It will cost 232g to rush a granary after warrior disband and switch to courthouse (the native shields in Accip. will complete the courthouse).

Come to think of it, if you can come up with an extra 40g from other civs in the next 3 turns you can do a 1 turn rush of a colloseum (472g after warrior), which would allow us to turn down lux tax a notch and accelerate culture growth in Accip. This would be my selection with courthouse and harbor coming after the Hanging Gardens prebuild.
I also notice that the Great Wall is also buildable in 3 turns - If no one has it with 1 to go, is it worth switching from Heroic Epic to get the Great Wall and break any prebuilds?
I am fairly confident that our city can beat any of the AI cities to Hanging Gardens with or without a prebuild. Given that the Heroic Epic gives twice the culture of the Great Wall and that the effects of the Epic may come into play rather soon, I would suggest staying on HE.

tao

Oct 06, 2004, 05:02 PM

My consolidated suggestions: ;)

MM Carthage for 15 spt.

I agree with Zwingli: complete Heroic Epic for twice the culture and the better chance for Great Leaders.

No harbor in Accipitridae yet, but the granary, disband, hurry courthouse, switch to colosseum is an excellent idea.

And we will not need the courthouse after Hanging Gardens, because we will be in WLTKD. Definitely after hurrying a cathedral.

Catapults in Utica and Theveste after the aquaeducts.

Furiey

Oct 06, 2004, 06:04 PM

Still playing and have mastered Monotheism allowing us to build Cathedrals on the same turn as I was going to do the Coliseum rush. If we want to rush a Cathedral instead (same upkeep, more culture, more happiness) we need a further 60 gold than we currently have which could either be borrowed from Greece (they're the only ones with gold) for 4gpt (68 gold) or by selling Republic (158 gold, clearing them out). But what are our long term plans for Greece? Do we want to sell Republic? do we want to have a gpt deal?

tao

Oct 06, 2004, 06:08 PM

I would borrow the gold, as it only costs us 12g and we delay tech progress allowing us to go for HG before Sun Tzu's.

tao

Oct 06, 2004, 06:21 PM

Here is the draft of our team spoiler. Please comment. I will move it to the spoiler thread tomorrow. (Furiey has to finish first :) )

Goal
The cat is out of the bag: team tao is going for 20k victory.

Development
Our worker moved north, saw spices and a second cow. The settler moved east and founded Carthage 3950BC. It started by building 3 warriors for exploring and military police, followed by a settler. We wanted to build at rcp distances 4 and 8, with our 20k city on the coastal plains southwest of Carthage.

Accipitridae was founded 2800BC and immediately started a temple, followed by Colossus, Great Library, Great Lighthouse, and a library. Then came the Heroic Epic and as first building of the Middle Ages, a hurried cathedral. We supported the city a lot by joining a couple of workers into it (Carthage got a granary after the settler and was a 3 turn archer/worker pump). This delayed our settling: Utica was founded on the western coast claiming the spices in 1400BC, Leptis Magna secured the sheep valley 1100BC, and Theveste claimed the ivory in 900BC.

Resources:
To our dismay, we were resource-less with the iron having Romans on our continent. The Great Lighthouse later opened overseas trading possibilities. We of course claimed spices and (after culture expansion of our northern city Theveste) ivory.

Research
We researched pottery, writing, literature (going for Great Library), map making (for exploring overseas), philosophy, code of law, republic. We learned it 370BC, revolted immediately, and after 3 turns of anarchy were a republic in 310BC. Then we stopped research relying on the Great Library and saving money for hurrying culture buildings in Accipitridae.

Wars
1950BC the first Roman war started with Caesar declaring war on us. It ended 1150BC after we got 2 slaves from a captured settler and burned Pompeii.

550BC the 2nd Roman war started when we declined to pay tribute to Caesar. In its beginning, we destroyed Viroconium (the Roman settlement north of Carthage) and enslaved another settler. The killing at Leptis Magna created our first Great Leader Hamilcar. He built an archer (yuk) army, which made a killing and allowed us to build Heroic Epic in Accipitridae. Caesar agreed to peace 390BC and we acquired and abandoned Ravenna making him our everlasting friend.

Exploring:
We met 2 overseas civs with our 1st galley and a lot more after the Great Lighthouse allowed for longer sails. But none of this may be discussed in this spoiler.

Middle Ages:
The Middle Ages started 90BC when the Great Library gave us currency. Our free Middle Age tech (Civ 1.29) was monotheism.

Furiey

Oct 06, 2004, 06:41 PM

slight pause as I had to take over as DP in the demogame for a bit but back playing now.

and the Middle ages started in 90 BC when we mastered Currency from the Great Library.

and I think: "In its beginning, de destroyed Viroconium".... should be "we destroyed"

Furiey

Oct 06, 2004, 08:42 PM

150 BC (Turn 0): Stop Workers felling Utica forest, it’ll be chopped 1 turn before the Aqueduct completes anyway – start moving them to Leptis Magna. Don’t start a war with the Indians – they’re our best chance for Iron at the moment. Carthage set for Horseman in 2. Press button.

IBT: Forest harvested to Theveste, Persian Galley goes N; Romans run about.

130 BC (Turn 1): Mine mountain by Carthage, move Workers to mine by Lepsis Magna; Galley can see dark blue border, but no contact yet – correction we do have contact with Babylon (needed to Shift-D), but they have nothing to trade and are only just above bottom of the table Germany score wise. Decide to block the Romans another couple of turns before I let them through.

IBT: Persia unloads an Archer and Settler on the tundra by Theveste.

110 BC (Turn 2): Carthage: Horseman->Hoplite; start mining near Leptis Magna. Babs have Stockholm, obviously they’ve been at war with the Vikings. We’ll get Currency off the Greeks and Ottomans next turn.

IBT: Persian Settler/Archer disappears up to far point of Tundra; another Persian Settler this time with Immortal come from the North towards our Horseman near the site of the razed roman city to the north of Carthage.

90 BC (Turn 3): Master Currency, start Feudalism; and enter a new era; Master Monotheism; we can now build Cathedrals; Accipitridae: Heroic Epic>Coliseum; Leptis Magna: Horseman>Catapult; need some more gold for the Coliseum rush (or should that be Cathedral now) so decide to sell construction to the few Civs that don’t have it for whatever gold they may have. Borrowed 68 gold for 4gpt from Greece; Rushed Cathedral in Accipitidae; spot pale pink border with Galley.

IBT: Gordium is built by the Ivory; Babs ask us to move our Galley; Romans run about and the Settler enters our territory going North; another Persian Galley appear near Theveste.

70 BC (Turn 4): Carthage: Hoplite -> Horseman; ; Accipitridae: Cathedral>Palace; drop lux slider to 10%; our Galley meets the Vikings, bottom of the score table.

IBT: Romans run about, Persians move

50 BC (Turn 5): Utica: Aqueduct>Catapult; Leptis Magna: Catapult>Catapult; looks like our galley might be exploring a dead end.

IBT: Vikings ask us to leave, we say we will; Persians found Bactra.

30 BC (Turn 6): *!@*$$% - Cathage riots :( can’t believe I missed that, only 5 cities to look at and I miss the capitol! raise lux slider to 20%; Galley spots a small gap in what looked like a dead end; Rome has just built another Settler and dropped down to pop 1

IBT: Roman Settler is going home; Persians start the Great Wall

10 BC (Turn 7):: Carthage: Horseman>Cathedral; Utica & Leptis Magna: Catapult>Catapult; worker starts on forest at Utica again; Indians have connected up their second Iron; trade Spices for it so we don’t lose it. Get all their gold as well (all 6 of it); upgrade Warrior in Leptis Magna.

IBT: Greece city of Athens builds the Great Wall.

10 AD (Turn 8): Nobody else is now building any Wonders; upgrade Warrior in Carthage.

IBT: Romans run about.

30 AD (Turn 9): Carthage: Hoplite>Cathedral; Utica & Leptis Magna: Catapult>Catapult; lost our Furs and Horses in the IBT – should have held off with the Iron deal, we get them back for Literature and 43 gold; Greece now has Monarchy and is in Anarchy; Persia has Republic.

IBT: Romans leave

50 AD (Turn 10): Leptis Magna’s culture expands ; Galley moves, Workers work. Just the Catapults in Leptis Magna are unmoved.

Treasury: 194 gold, +32 gpt, Fued in -- (0%)

Post-turn: The Worker chopping the forest by Utica finishes in 2 turns, so either a catapult could be build in 1 following that currently being built, or the shields could be used for an improvement. Persia now has Republic so that will soon be loose on the other continents, Greece has lots of gold and is in Anarchy changing to Monarchy. Do we get their gold for Republic? Sorry, but I unfortunately let Carthage riot, so have queued a Cathedral – but it takes 10 turns – we’ll be able to drop the lux slider once it’s built though. It’s only had 1 turn of build so it’s easy enough to change. Accipitridae is on Palace prebuild ready for Hanging Gardens. We need someone else to get Monarchy soon – with Hanging Gardens we may be able to hold off the Cathedral in Carthage.

It’s getting late (early), Civ has just crashed as I exited and I’m rambling so I’ll stop and just post this.

Civ Assist: Culture prediction at 2050 = 19,000 (28 per turn)

Zwingli (up next)
coletite
tao
Demiurge
Furiey (just played)

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/tao_SG004_AD0050_01.SAV)

Zwingli

Oct 06, 2004, 09:21 PM

I took a look at the save, and it looks like an excellent setup for war. Too bad about the riot, but at least it wasn't in Accipitidae. :)

As for selling Republic to Greece, I will do it only if our Palace build runs out and no one else has Monarchy (Then they can suffer 2 anarchies).

Got it.

Zwingli

Oct 06, 2004, 10:59 PM

50 AD (0)
Shuffle units and move the army into defensive position. Switch Carthage from Cathedral to marketplace, keeping it on infrastructure because we have just about enough units.

Declare War on Rome

IBT- A couple of Legionaries approach

70 AD (1)
We have war happiness from a traditional enemy, lux down 10%.
Still waiting for Rome to move onto flat land.

90 AD (2)
Rome moves closer
Still no one has Monarchy, and Greece emerges into Monarchy.

IBT- Rome moves legionaries onto flat land, but our army misses the ZOC bombards.

110 AD (3)
Catapults go 3/7, and 2 elite archers defeat regular legionaries.

IBT- One more legion on the flat land.

130 AD (4)
Cats go 2/5 redlining legion and an elite archer defeats it.

Since the cascade is dead, it may not be a bad idea to sell Republic to speed tech rate a little. Just enough that we have another wonder to build after we finish The Gardens. The Persians and Romans appear to have it anyway, so sell Republic to Greece for Monarchy + 4g. Polytheism to India for 56g. Gardens due in 4 turns.

IBT- Roman Legionary stays on the mountain rather than advance toward flat land.

150 AD (5)
Redline mountain legion and kill with elite archer. Injure a Roman galley with cat fire.

170 AD (6)
Another Legion appears in the distance

IBT- Our Scout hoplite is attacked twice by legions, the first one starting a Golden Age, but the second destroys the hoplite. I was getting impatient for Roman units.

190 AD (7)

IBT- Three Roman units approach, hopefully they will send a steady trickle for us to farm units.
We complete Hanging Gardens.

210 AD (8)
We rush a Colosseum in Accipitridae after warrior disband.

IBT- Persia demands Polytheism. Refuse and they are bluffing.

230 AD (9)
Short rush a courthouse after disbanding horseman in Accipitridae. Sell Republic to Ottomons for 30g (cheap, but I am getting nervous about the tech pace going too slow as the wonder cascade is quite dead.)

250 AD (10)
Bombard and kill spear with elite archer.
Short-rush Harbor after disbanding horseman, and crank up research to 50% to learn Theology in 9 (our prebuild will only last 9 after the Harbor is complete).

Zwingli

Oct 06, 2004, 11:18 PM

As usual, I have a some points of advice to go with the log :).

1. Dont move the mountain hoplites or the army from their positions as they are what is keeping Rome off of the mountains and away from Accipitridae.

2. Wait for Roman troops to pass onto the flat lands before bombarding with catapults and attacking with elite archers. If an elite is exposed to counterattack, cover it with a fortified hoplite and the Romans might look for an easier target.

3. I think we can farm Rome for leaders by drawing their units into the valley for quite a while, and all the time we will be benifiting from war happiness. Rome is not a threat, and we can wait for knights to go on the offensive.

4. Our monarch level opponents are researching too slowly, and we have to do our own research to get the high culture wonders and improvements more quickly. I suggest building more libraries and researching Theology-> Education-> Astronomy or Music Theory. It is likely we will eventually get a leader from Rome, and we need something to rush.

coletite (next)
tao
Demiurge
Furiey
Zwingli (just played)

tao

Oct 07, 2004, 01:36 AM

What a productive night.

First the bad news from the spoiler thread: team Bede is also going for 20k victory.

Now the good news: they give dates in the spoiler (I didn't do it ;)) and the culture spreadsheet predicts us to reach 20.018 in 1994AD, whereas team Bede will reach 20.049 in 2003AD.

As you see, we have the lead, but the race is close. Our advantage is that we keep on researching and thus will get the high-culture Middle Age Wonders faster. Let's keep going. :goodjob:

One additional piece of advice from me: Carthage should be micromanaged for growth without delaying production. Whenever we reach the pop limit, crank out another worker to join to slow-growing Utica and Theveste.

Edit/add:
I looked at the save again and at least this turn we can mm our cities for growth without delaying production:
Carthage: NE instead of 2NE: cathedral in 2, growth+worker in 3
Accipitridae: irr gras instead of forest to get food reserve
Utica: 2 irr gras to grow in 6 instead of 10
Leptis Magna to grow in 18 instead of 35
Re-check after next turn.

Build market next in Theveste, library in Utica?

Demiurge

Oct 07, 2004, 09:29 PM

Looks like things are progressing well. Sadly I haven't been able to focus on the game this week due to trying to catch up at work from my long weekend in sunny California. I should however be able to get more involved next week.

tao

Oct 08, 2004, 03:36 PM

Since coletite did not post her "got it" within 24 hours second time in a row, she is skipped for this turn and warned to be more reliable in the future.

Pre-turn: mm cities, hit return.

(1) 260AD: Accipitridae b harbor s Palace, mm; Utica b market s library, mm; LM b hoplite s next; Theveste b library s market, mm.
2 Roman legions on our sheep plain causing starvation in LM; we have to reroute them to the SW asap.
cats red-line legions, elite archer and horse kill them; galley explores.

(2) 270AD: Carthage b cathedral s worker; 2 elite archers kill 2 legions, 1st horse dies, 2nd horse kills 2rd legion; move hoplite on mountain SSW of LM; mm LM; galley explores; mm Theveste for shields.

(3) 280AD: Carthage b worker s hoplite, mm for commerce; LM b hoplite s horse; convert Accipitridae plain from irrigation to mine; move worker to Utica; galley explores.

IBT we see a Roman galley moving up the coast towards Accipitridae.

(4) 290AD: Carthage b hoplite s horse; hoplite to Accipitridae; horse on hill S of Accipitridae; join worker to Utica, mm for growth.
There are 4 legions on mountain; bombard and hit 2 of them; galley finds some green border.

(5) 300AD: Carthage b horse s sword (prepare for 2 legions from galley); LM b horse s hoplite and starves :(; cats bombard, elite archer kills legion; elite archer kills legion and Great Leader Mago appears :), horse kills legion; move hoplite on mountain completing the SE block.
Switch Accipitridae to market wasting 45 shields - who cares?, mm for food.
Set research to 80% at -56gpt reducing theology from 4 to 2 turns.

IBT galley drops a lone spear; legion attacks hoplite on mountain and dies without causing harm.

(6) 310AD: Carthage b sword s horse; Accipitridae b market s catapult; Utica b library s cathedral.
Horse attacks spear next to Accipitridae and dies, 2nd horse kills spear, galley detects Richborough (Keltoi) and blue (Babylonian) borders,
mm Accipitridae, Theveste, LM for food.
Research down to 70% at -29gpt (73 in treasury).

(7) 320AD: learn theology; Carthage b sword s wealth, Accipitridae b catapult s Sistine, LM b hoplite s hoplite, Theveste b market s cathedral and its borders expand closing the gap towards Utica and Carthage and claiming the 2nd ivory.
Mago hurries Sistine, cats red-line 2 legions on mountain, elite archer kills 1st getting red-lined, sword kills 2nd, hoplite to mountain extending block, galley finds Babylonian 1-tile-island of Uruk.
Sell polytheism to Babylon for 36g - all they have - and Hammu turns from annoyed to cautious; sell monarchy to Ottomans for 25g, 4gpt, sell monarchy to Keltoi for 34g, sell monarchy to Vikings for 16g, donate 40g to Bismarck and sell him polytheism for 46g (polite).
Lux to 0%, start research on education at 80% due in 6 and -21gpt (161 in treasury).

(8) 330AD: Accipitridae b Sistine s Palace, Utica's culture expands, Carthage s worker.
Join 2 workers to Theveste, cats red-line legion, horse kills and retreats to mountain w hoplite. galley explores.

(9) 340AD: Carthage b worker s next, mm; LM b horse s next; our deal for horses and furs end and I cancel the iron-spices deal with India and sell them monarchy for furs, iron, and horses; then I donate one of our 2 excess spices to Ghandi to support this deal and he turns gracious.
Cats bomb legions, elite archer kills, sword kills, horse dies, horse kills, archer Mago attacks and kills, galley locates Frankfurt
Caesar is willing to give 34g, 9gpt, and Pompeii for peace, but we want another Leader first.

(10) 350AD: Carthage b horse s next; cats bombard, elite archer kills legion.
Research to 90% gives education in 2.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/tao_sgotm4_350AD.jpg

20k culture in 1942AD, Firaxis 380, Jason 503.

Notes:
I researched so vigorously in case we get another Leader, but now you may slow down a little bit if you choose so. That would also accumulate some cash for hurrying university (after disbanding) in Accipitridae once we learn education. This is not how one would play a "normal" game, but we go 20k culture.

I also preferred production over growth, since we are in our Golden Age. To get the most production, I joined a number of workers not needed for tile improvement and costing 2gpt each.

If we want to favor research, we can switch the cathedral builds in Utica and Theveste to universities. But in this case, Utica cannot grow without lux tax and Theveste can grow only one more (there is a worker on its way north; I intended to road the 2nd ivory before joining him to Theveste).

Demiurge (next)
Furiey
Zwingli
coletite (skipped)
tao (just played)

Furiey

Oct 08, 2004, 04:08 PM

tao

Oct 08, 2004, 04:14 PM

Just about to download the save for a look, but how many cities do we need to trigger the Forbidden Palace? If we are doing well enough, and only 1 or 2 are needed, could we try and capture them to trigger it? We obviously have to capture and abandon on the same turn, but that would give us something else with culture to build in Acippitridae.I already thought about that also. We need 8 cities, and the Forbidden palace would cost 200 shields.

Example: we build a settler in Carthage, capture Gordium and Bactra from Persia, found city, have 8 and: voila. Corruption gone in Accipitridae and 2 more culture per turn. Definitely something to do once it fits in.

Furiey

Oct 08, 2004, 04:19 PM

True - it doesn't have to be Rome we do this with, we have 2 small Persian cities that will have to be dealt with at some point anyway. Bactra I notice now has a Spear - the original escort was an Immortal, so that must be in there as well.

Zwingli

Oct 09, 2004, 12:42 AM

Getting that leader put a huge dent in our finish date :thumbsup:

In terms of building management, we have 2 main alternatives. In either scenario, we switch Accipitridae to the bonus grassland from the non-bonus grassland to increase shields (or change from irrigated grassland to bonus grassland losing 1 food per turn) and reduce research to 60% learning education in 3 turns at +33gpt.

1. Upon researching education, select the "big picture" and go to Accipitridae via the domestic advisor. Switch Palace to University and rush for 232g getting the building 1 turn early. At 33gpt income we will come a few gold short (although we will have the last turns income during the big picture manipulation), but turning science down on the last turn or selling tech should make up the difference easily. After university, start prebuild and research toward Astronomy for Copernicus.

2. Keep the palace build going past education and switch the palace to Sun Tzu when another civ learns Feudalism. Research toward Astronomy and switch Sun Tzu to Copernicus when it arrives. Upon completing Copernicus, rush the university in 1 turn and proceed with the next build.

Disregarding leader opportunities, option 2 will give us university and Copernicus faster overall. It depends on the AI researching Feudalism within 7 turns, but they probably have been researching it for some time (with both an offensive and defensive unit available, Feudalism is attractive to the AI). Option 1 is safer, and benifits us more if we get a leader soon. If an AI researches Feudalism in the next 2 turns, definitely go for option 2 (unless we get a leader of course).

As for why Astronomy is so important, Copernicus will greatly increase our research ability, allowing us to research Music Theory and the Free Artistry pathway more quickly. If we happen to get a leader when we have almost completed Copernicus, it might be a good idea to finish the wonder naturally and rush Sun Tsu the turn after to break the cascade again :).

Demiurge

Oct 09, 2004, 01:34 AM

I was playing when you posted Zwingli, so I wasn't ignoring your advice it was just posted too late to affect my decision making.

350 ad (pre-turn)
hit return

IBT: Two fresh legionaries appear

360 ad (turn 1)
Carthage builds horse < next
Leptis Magna builds horse < next
Lower sci to 80% so we are no longer losing money and can still still switch Utica to university via big picture. Education in two.
Kill two red-lined legionaries with elite archer and vet sword
Horses move toward Leptis Magna

IBT: Roman galley appears off coast, approaching Accipitridae. Greece demands 21 gold. Since they really aren't a threat, we refuse. They declare.

370 ad (turn 2)
MM Accipitridae since Roman galley is on oysters
Bombard galley, fails
Troops around Leptis Magna are pretty bored. No Romans in sight
Drop sci to 10%, education in one

IBT: Keltoi demand Monotheism, we of course refuse. They back down. Roman galley drops off spear, one legionary appears south

380 ad (turn 3)
Learn education < music theory, sci at 70%, music theory in six
Disband horse in Accipitridae, rush university via big picture
Accipitridae builds university < palace
Carthage builds horse < university
Leptis Magna builds horse < next
Cats redline legionary, elite archer kills, cover elite with hop
Cat misses spear near Accipitridae, Kill spear with horse, losing one in the process
MM Utica for food, still get university in one
MM Accipitridae back to oysters

IBT: Legionary attacks hoplite defending elite archer, dies. A legionary and spear move toward Leptis Magna

390 ad (turn 4)
Utica builds university < cathedral (will need it for happiness)
Redline spear and legionary with cats, kill both with elite archers
Join two workers to Utica getting it up to pop 12, MM for max shields
Sci down to 60%, still get music theory in four

IBT: Rome offers peace straight up, we decline. Two legionaries attack stack protecting elite archers. One dies, we lose vet sword

400 ad (turn 5)
Leptis Magna builds horse < next
Troops in south retreat to safety

IBT: Two more legionaries arrive

410 ad (turn 6)
Redline two legionaries with cats, kill one with elite archer, one with horse
Worker completes connecting ivory, joined to Theveste

IBT: Our GA ends

420 ad (turn 7)
Sci down to 50%, music theory in two
Theveste gets university in one, MM for food

IBT: One legionary appears

430 ad (turn 8)
Theveste builds university < courthouse
Redline legionary with cats, kill with elite archer, move 2 hops to protect
Sci down to 40%, music theory in one

IBT: Two legionaries attack hops protecting archer, die promoting hop to elite. Roman galley appears near Accipitridae

440 ad (turn 9)
We learn music theory < astronomy. Turn research down temporarily to bank some gold.
Change Accipitridae to JS Bachs, due in 19
Cat misses galley

IBT: Galley drops of one spear near Accipitridae. On legionary in the south

450 ad (turn 10)
Cats redline legionary, kill with horse since elites are healing
Cat misses spear near Accipitridae, kill with sword

Post-turn:
I avoided trading any. On turn 10 both India and Persia finally researched feudalism but I did not trade for it yet.

That Roman galley is getting irritating. It keeps stopping on the oysters and Accipitridae needs to be MM every time. It will need MM next turn for max shields again.

Greece will accept peace now, but we have to pay for it.

I was attacking the roman troops in the south from the mountain under the archer army to keep them from affecting Leptis Magna production and growth.

I turned research down a bit on astronomy but it could probably be cranked up again once we trade for feudalism.

Playing order
Furiey (next)
Zwingli
coletite
tao
Demiurge (just played)

tao

Oct 09, 2004, 01:37 AM

My bad, I missed the bg.

I would rush the university and go for Copernicus afterwards. Rush it, if we get an early Great Leader, otherwise save the Leader for hurrying Sun Tzu's. Since Sun Tzu is a 600 shield Wonder, the AI will not build it fast. In any case, I would not care for skipping Sun Tzu's 2cpt in favor of Bach's, which gives 6cpt.

Demiurge played and posted, while I wrote this post.

Furiey

Oct 09, 2004, 03:06 AM

Got it, but currently getting ready to go to a Wedding - I doubt that I'll be back in time to play tonight, so I'll play tomorrow.

coletite

Oct 09, 2004, 08:57 AM

Demiurge

Oct 09, 2004, 11:02 AM

A word of advice about that pesky Roman galley. If we can squeeze in 3 or 4 cats at some point and place them on the mountaintop (noted with a red circle on my pic), we can probably send them home each trip and not have to worry about them hurting production in Accipitridae or landing any troops in the north.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/galley.jpg

Edit/add: Once we trade for feudalism, if we crank up research again, we can still switch over the JS build to Copernicus without wasting any shields, then back to JS. Not counting on getting a GL, we could start a Sun Tzu build in Carthage to possibly break the cascade before they can switch to another wonder.

After astronomy research at max toward banking then if we get a GL we can complete Copernicus in Accipitridae, built by hand, switch to Sun Tzu, rush with leader, cash rush bank, then back to JS switching the Sun Tzu build in Carthage to a bank.

Zwingli

Oct 09, 2004, 01:55 PM

I agree with sending catapults to the red circle to prevent galleys from messing with Accipitridae again (a couple existing ones will do). I would also send a couple more horsemen north temporarilly to defend against the Roman landing.

Looking carefully at the save, it may be possible to build Shakespeare's Theater after Copernicus, which would result in a massive 16cpt after doubling. To do this we will need to focus strongly on research as the time to reach 400 shields in Accipitridae and the time to research Free Artistry will be close. Getting more gold will be key.

Persia has 44gpt + 182g + Feudalism available, which we can get for ivory + Education. Other civs with gold available for Tech are the Vikings and the Ottomans. With these trades, we can increase science to 90% deficit research on Astronomy (5 turns research after Carthage university?).

After Astronomy, I would take printing press as the next tech as we can probably get it in 4 turns while allowing time for Copernicus to complete to help on the more expensive Banking tech. After Printing Press, we can research Banking for reasons pointed out by Demiurge, and to open up Democracy.

Assuming we can pull this off optimally, here are how the numbers stack up:

Production: 9 turns (Copernicus) + 18 turns (Shakespeare)
= 27 turns

Research: 6 turns (Astro)+4 turns (PP)+4 turns (Bank)+ 7 turns (Demo)+4 turns(FA)
= 25 turns *Estimate*

Of course, if we get a leader we can rush Bach's (after building Copernicus) and take a slower pace :)

tao

Oct 10, 2004, 12:38 PM

????? I never received an update from the forum...

Since I have now missed 2 turns in a row, I am going to go ahead and bow out. I apologize for missing yet another turn... I shouldn't have relied on the forum to send me an update. I'm usually not this unreliable...

Good luck everyone!

Coletite (he)How about first checking your options? There is a pop-up allowing you to set the email notification.

Also you may not receive another notification once new posts exist, if you don't visit the thread after the first notification.

tao

Oct 10, 2004, 12:48 PM

Assuming we can pull this off optimally, here are how the numbers stack up:

Production: 9 turns (Copernicus) + 18 turns (Shakespeare)
= 27 turns

Research: 6 turns (Astro)+4 turns (PP)+4 turns (Bank)+ 7 turns (Demo)+4 turns(FA)
= 25 turns *Estimate*

Of course, if we get a leader we can rush Bach's (after building Copernicus) and take a slower pace :)I don't believe we can do this, because the research effort probably can't be sustained. What about researching astro-banks-navigation (Magellan's)-pp-demo-fa (Shakespeares's). Navigation will allow us overseas trades and Magellan's may serve as in-between. An alternative would be to do the "temporary 8 cities - Forbidden Palace" interlude.

Zwingli

Oct 10, 2004, 02:11 PM

I don't believe we can do this, because the research effort probably can't be sustained.
At 90% science, we would lose 64gpt but after the Persian deal we would lose only 20gpt and have 400g in the bank (enough to sustain 20 turns of deficit research). At this level the science advisor currently indicates Printing Press in 4 turns and Astronomy in 6 turns not counting the completion of Carthage university and Copernicus. Given the 2 turn leeway between the estimate and production, I think we have a good shot at sustaining the necessary research. In the final 5-7 turns we would need to be able to renew the Persian deal and come up with ~120 treasury gold, but I think this is a reasonable assumption given that Printing Press wil let us sell maps :)

Getting to the point, there is a small risk that we won't research Free Artistry soon enough, but given the cultural power of early Shakespeare's I think the risk is worthwhile. Even if we are a couple turns late, we will not have lost progress on Bach's and can make the optimal decision between Bach's (600 shields) and switching to Shakespeare (400 shields).

Note: From the 13th to 16th of October I will be without internet or Civ access due to travel. If I am up during those dates, you can either skip or wait until late on Saturday (16th).

Furiey

Oct 10, 2004, 02:50 PM

I've not yet started actually playing, but have been spending my time doing some sums with the aid of tech calc and civ assist.

I believe I can get + 50gpt and 244 gold by selling Education to Persia and Theology to Ottomans and Vikings, taking our gold reserves to 456.

These are the numbers I've been using:
beakers per turn resulting
Sci % current + Uni + Copernicus gpt
100 284 302 349 -36
90 254 270 312 -16
80 230 244 282 +6
70 200 212 245 +31This gives:

Astronomy in 6: 1x90% (current bpt), 2x100% (+uni), 2x90% (+uni) = -144gold
Printing Press in 4: 4x80% (+uni) = +24gold
Banking in 4: 4x100% (+Copernicus) = -144gold
Democracy in 7: 3x80% (+Cop) + 4x70% (+Cop) = +105gold
Free Artistry in 4: 4x100% (+Cop) = -144gold

This leaves 183 gold in the bank, BUT it assumes we can keep our trade income! Therefore although we can get Democracy in this time, there is not the same guarantee with Free Artistry. If we do lose the income we could always build JS Bach Cathedral in the meantime, or the 8 city forbidden palace go. Similarly we could get a leader allowing us to rush JS Bach earlier, or get to the point that the Romans will give us 2 cities for peace (they’ll give us Cumae or Pompeii, but not quite both at the moment). Oh yes - and the Persian trade also gets us Fuedalism, so there is always Sun Tzu to fall back on. Having spent ages mulling over these numbers I think I just need to get on and play and see what happens. We’ll have to be prepared to be flexible.

Question on the temporary 8 city forbidden palace thing: do we have to start the forbidden palace before we give up the cities? Or once triggered can we always build it?

edit: cross posted with Zwingli

tao

Oct 10, 2004, 02:56 PM

Question on the temporary 8 city forbidden palace thing: do we have to start the forbidden palace before we give up the cities?Yes, we have to. Or once triggered can we always build it?No. Don't even switch away from it. You can't switch back to it same turn.

Furiey

Oct 10, 2004, 06:08 PM

450 AD (Turn 0): without affecting production, mm Carthage for growth & commerce, Utica for commerce, Theveste for growth; sell Education and Ivory to Persia for Feudalism, 44gpt and 182 gold; sell Theology to Ottomans for 5gpt and 49 gold and Vikings for 1gpt and 13 gold; raise science to 90%, Astronomy in 6, -14gpt; press button.

IBT: Greece and Vikings form a Military Alliance against us – we lose 1gpt at that price it was almost giving Theology away, might as well have kept it :( ; Bactra’s Culture expands.

460 AD (Turn 1): Carthage: University>Persian Mercenary; move couple of Cats to galley bombard point. Fortify injured troops in cities for healing; increase research to 100%, Astronomy in 4, now 441 gold, –39gpt (increased unit costs and losing 1gpt from Vikings); worker by Utica runs off towards Theveste.

IBT: Wow - some Romans appear for target practice – goody goody

470 AD (Turn 2): Utica: Cathedral>Horseman; Leptis Magna: Horse>Horse; Elite Archers take out the Roman Legions after the Cats bombard, but not a leader in sight; exposed Archer covered by Hoplite; join worker to Theveste; check and can drop science back to 90% giving Astronomy in 3, now 402 gold, -19gpt; Romans will still only give 1 city; Greeks want Feudalism – no deal.

IBT: Zzzzz – no Romans

480 AD (Turn 3): Carthage: Persian Merc->Catapult; Gordium flips! Looking at our culture, just the tip of the tundra there will not be covered by our culture – we can cover it with the Hoplite gained in Gordium, so I accept the city; abandon Gordium – I got it wrong – the 3rd Ivory is exposed as well – send a Horseman to cover that (perhaps a colony is in order to give another Ivory to trade).

IBT: Another Roman!; Greeks and Vikings start Sun Tzu

490 AD (Turn 4): Carthage: Catapult->Catapult; Utica: Horse->Barracks; Leptis Magna: Horse->Hoplite; Redline Legion with Cats then lose Elite Archer and Horseman before spotting Veteran Sword in stack; Sword defeats Legion and promotes, cover it with Hoplite; since joining the Worker to Theveste we are doing slightly better beaker wise than my calcs, but with unit production our gpt is worse; research has to stay at 90%, Astronomy in 1, 360 gold, -25gpt.

IBT: Roman Legion and Spear appears.

500 AD (Turn 5): We complete Astronomy and start Printing Press, due in 4, -4gpt; Accipitridae changed to Copernicus; Carthage: Cat->Coliseum; Theveste: Court->Cathedral; Theveste, is going to riot for some reason (must be reverse WW wearing off or something as it hasn’t just grown, in fact all the cities are less happy; create Taxman in Theveste; redline Romans with Cats; kill one redlining an Elite Archer, the other with the Elite Sword from last turn, cover Sword with Hoplite.

IBT: Zzzz

510 AD (Turn 6): Leptis Magna: Hoplite->Persian Merc; tidy up exposed troops.

IBT: A Roman appears;

520 AD (Turn 7): Accipitidae celebrates WLTQD; Utica: Barracks->Persian Merc; Elite Archers are healing, take out Legion with Horseman after bombarding with Cats; mm Accipitridae for Copernicus in 1, max commerce.

IBT: Keltoi wants our Galley to move – we say it will; Romans appear and we see a Settler and escort leave Antium; Persian Galley appears S of Leptis Magna

530 AD (Turn 8): We build Copernicus’ Observatory in Accipitidae, start JS Bach (again); redline Legions with Cats and kill with Horses; due to Copernicus, can now drop research to 60%, Printing Press in 1, 317 gold +36 gpt.

IBT: Ragnar wants Music Theory for Peace – err – I really don’t think so…; Roman moves into forest NW of Antium, taking a different route this time; Persians start Sun Tzu; Our trade deal for Furs, Horses and Iron with India ends.

540 AD (Turn 9): Complete Printing Press, Start Banking, due in 4 at –59gpt :eek: Leptis Magna: Persian Merc->Persian Merc; sell Education to India for Furs, Iron, Horses and 11 gold. We are the only ones able to trade contacts, so as this is turn 9 I do not trade yet.

IBT: Zzzzzz

550 AD (Turn 10): Utica: Persian Merc->Coliseum; move troops used last turn back on to mountain

Treasury: 306 gold, -60 gpt, Banking in 3 (100%)

Post-turn: The Workers were heading for the Ivory to road it and 1 build a colony, the Persian Merc was heading to reinforce the Theveste area. We are running large negative gpt, but should be able to reduce research a bit later and still get Banking in 4. No sign of a leader. We can now trade contacts, but I have not done so, I’m not sure how long we can hold off. hopefully we can get a lot more gold coming in for them.

Accipitidae Culture: 54 per turn
Civ Assist 20k Prediction: 1862

Zwingli (up next)?
tao
Demiurge
Furiey (just played)

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/tao_SG004_AD0550_01.SAV)

Zwingli

Oct 10, 2004, 07:51 PM

Good news on both the flip and the research progress. Our projected date of 1862 is already fairly decent, and if our gold supply begins to dwindle due to unit costs there is always "wealth" :).

Got it, but might take an extra day.

Zwingli

Oct 10, 2004, 11:16 PM

Well, I didn't take an extra day
Furiey's great analysis and setup gave us a perfectly timed build :)

550 AD (0)
Switch around some builds to prebuild for banks, switch Leptis Magna to courthouse, disband a regular horseman in Utica (speed bank), and sell Theology to Germany and Keltoi for some change.

560 AD (1)
Disband a couple catapults in Utica to speed bank construction.

IBT- Babylon demands contact with India, but is bluffing.

570 AD (2)
Elite sword kills legion.
Reduce science 10% with Banking in 1 turn.

IBT- Learn Banking->Democracy in 5.

580 AD (3)
Utica switches to bank.

IBT- Leptis Magna Courthouse->worker

590 AD (4)
Elite archer and vet horse kill 2 legions.
Trade Banking to India for Chivalry + 1gpt + 20g

600 AD (5)
Leptis worker->knight
Elite archer and elite sword kill 2 legions.

IBT- Greece starts Bach's

610 AD (6)
More legionaries appear. No one besides Greece has Music Theory.

IBT- Complete cathedral in Theviste, and all cities are now sufficiently happy.

620 AD (7)
Chivalry to Greece for Peace + 36g
Chivalry to Vikings for Peace + 28g
Babylon has Engineering available for trade, but we don't need it yet.

Galley finds an isolated island with wines, too bad we can't grab them.

630 AD (8)
Elite sword kills legionary
Disband a regular hoplite in Utica, speeding the bank by 1 turn.
Science reduced to 50% getting Democracy in 1.

IBT- We learn Democracy (no revolt)->Free Artistry in 4.

640 AD (9)
Spices to India for 7gpt + 12g.

IBT- Leptis knight->knight
Utica Bank->courthouse

650 AD (10)
Elite archer and Elite swordsman kill 2 legionaries, vet knight kills legion and promotes to elite.
The Persian deal is expired, and we give them Banking and silks for 33gpt +38g + ROP (for attitude).
Science down to 70% and we make +7gpt.

Post-Turn
Engineering is available from Babylon for some outdated techs and India has about 25gpt in free income (Engineering would allow 1 more forest to be planted at Theveste). We should have enough shields for Shakespeare's on the same exact turn we learn Free Artistry :), so switching via "big picture" will be best. The elite knight should help with leader farming, and if we manage to get a leader, we should probably rush Bachs after completing Shakespeare's.

Carthage has been building Sun Tzu in order to control the cascade.

Edit:

tao (next)
Demiurge
Furiey
Zwingli (just played)

tao

Oct 11, 2004, 04:41 AM

I look at the save, at the tech status and monetary situation of the AIs, and ponder what to do:

Stop researching free artistry in order to finish Bach's first and hoping no-one will learn FA till then? Likely, save play, but we are in a race with the other teams. Conclusion: we need another Great Leader. ;)

pre-turn: Theveste worker set to mining, switch Utica to knight, do not trade for Babylon's engineering, because they want pp - as yet unknown on the other continent.

660AD: heal troops

670AD: bombard legion, elite 4/5 knight kills loosing 1 hp

680AD: bombard 2 legions, elite sword kills 2hp one, elite archer 1hp victim; army protects; mm LM for growth

IBT we learn free artistry and switch to Shakespeare's due in 2

690AD: start slow research (60%) on navigation (we want to build Magellan's once we get the much hoped-for Great Leader for Bach's)

700AD: Accipitridae b Shakespeare's s Bach's; Utica b knight s next, LB b knight s next.
The pesky Roman galley appears again; upgrade sword and horse in Carthage.

710AD: cats red-line 2 legions, elite sword kills, elite knight kills

IBT Roman galley drops legion.

720AD: cats red-line 2 legions, elite archer kills, elite knight kills, Carthage knight kills legion and elitizes, workers road in front of mountain for better retreat.

730AD: Theveste b bank s colosseum (to faster claiming the northern area; we might disband it afterwards); catapult hits galley.

740AD: road another attack tile; Gandhi gives iron, horses, furs, 12gpt, 78g for democracy (I don't want to give him music theory, since we will finish Sun Tzu's in 5 and hope to stop the cascade).

750AD: Utica b knight s next, LM b knight s next
cats red-line 3 legions, elite archer kills, elite sword kills, elite knight kills, no Leader :(

Post-turn thoughts: regrettably uneventful; 10 elite victories, no Leader; I propose to "visit" Pisae and/or Antium soon with our knights. Rome is prone to have knights also really soon!

I did not trade for engineering in order to keep the tech pace low.

Next turn, we will learn navigation and be able to trade with the overseas civs; thus I refrained from doing trades this turn.

After we finished Sun Tzu's might be the time to establish some embassies and even evaluate cities, whether they are a threat for our Bach's build.

The worker at Carthage might want to plant a forest once we learn engineering. There is a Roman worker on the ivory, ready to build a colony if needed; otherwise do forward-looking improvements around Theveste.

Important: Leptis Magna needs a specialist to prevent riots this turn (it grew to pop 8). Next turn, overseas luxuries should remove this nuisance.

Firaxis 486, Jason 644

20k date is now 1818AD (Jason calculator for GOTM28 set target to 1760AD)

Demiurge (next)
Furiey
Zwingli
tao (just played)

tao

Oct 11, 2004, 04:55 AM

I looked thru the last reports and counted the number of elite victories since our last Leader:

tao: 3
Demiurge: 6
Furiey: 3
Zwingli: 7
tao: 10

Despite us having Heroic Epic, 29 elite wins without a Leader. :cry:

Furiey

Oct 11, 2004, 01:52 PM

I notice looking at Rome that they will give Hispalis and Pompeii for Peace, one more city and we could trigger the FP temporary 8 cities thing. Not good timing though unless that leader is forthcoming (never get them when you want them - lets hope they're like buses and we get 3 come along following each other ;) ).

edit/add: would losing the religious trait make any difference to the Jason date?

edit/add more: err make that 30 without a Leader - I've checked my log and I had 2 Elite Victories with Archers in 470 AD and 2 in 500 AD, 1 Archer and 1 Sword. Not that it makes the figures any better... :sad:

Zwingli

Oct 11, 2004, 03:30 PM

I don't have much to add at this point as our longer term plans would depend on whether we get a leader or not. If we don't get a leader, a good time to do the FP trick would be after completing Bach's. Eventually, we will want to plan out a prebuild for Newton's the same way we did for Shakespeare's, completing it before the AI have a chance for competition.

Demiurge

Oct 11, 2004, 05:32 PM

Got it will post some thoughts later. Plan to play tomorrow evening.

tao

Oct 12, 2004, 01:44 AM

Currently, only Greece kows Music Theory and builds bach's in size 4 Delphi; IMHO not a contender. But there will be a cascade if we finish Sun Tzu's in 4. If no other civ learns MT till then, Thermopylae (our galley only exposed part of the name, but next turn we can acquire maps) will likely be the top contender.

IMHO we have 2 main alternatives (which maybe even pursued in parallel):
Continue the Roman war and hope for a Great Leader for rushing Bach's before some other civ completes it.
Built 2 caravels and send 6 suicidal knights to raze or at least create havoc at the (hopefully only 1) city competing with Accipitridae. On monarch, six knights should be enough, if only to pillage all tiles and push the city in disorder.
You might start on caravels now and decide once we have finished Sun Tzu's and you hopefully have to spy only on 1 or 2 cities.

Demiurge

Oct 12, 2004, 11:54 AM

After looking at the save and digesting the comments already made, a GL seems imminent. I'll hope to raise the odds by taking the 4-turns to complete Sun Tzu's and push the fight into Roman territories with the elites. With the existing troops we have I should be able to easily take Pisae and Antium splitting the elites between the two stacks. With a little luck in that span I should be able to get many more elites victories than by sitting at home waiting for them.

Hopefully I can get the GL and time completion of JS Bach's with Sun Tzu's. Not counting on a GL, the suggestion of preparing for a landing on Greek soil sounds good and I'll begin preparing for it immediately. That should ensure us of getting JS Bach's.

730 ad (pre-turn)
Establish embassy with the Greeks for 127 gold to enable us to investigate Thermopylae for 200 gold. Expensive, but I feel better knowing where they stand.

Here is Athens...
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Athens.jpg

and Thermopylae at that time:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Thermopylae.jpg

We have 15 turns to complete both wonders or burn Thermopylae.
It will take us 7-turns to get there and land troops on the hill and bg. Currently they have walls three defenders and one cat in Thermopylae. This solidifies the plan for my turns. I have to have two caravels and 6 knights ready to leave our shores by turn 7 at the very latest. We currently have six knights. Two elites which need to stay at home to fish for leaders. So I need to build 2 caravels and 2 knights ASAP. To that end I switch Theveste to barracks with no shield loss. It will build a knight next. Combine that with the one due in 5 in Leptis Magna and we have the two knights in 5. Switch Utica to caravel, due in three. If I can rush the next one on turn 2 of it's build I'll have the two caravels ready to go in Utica on turn 5 as well.

760 ad (turn 1)
We learn navigation > economics at 50% to bank some gold
Theveste completes barracks > knight
Traded Astronomy to Babylon for Engineering, WM and 9 g. No ai knows invention yet. I decide to continue researching economics since the ai is probably researching invention and we can then trade for it.
Sell WM to Vikings for 110 g and 4 gpt
Sell WM to Keltoi for silks, WM and 1 g
Sell WM to Persia for WM, 69 g and 2 gpt
Greece will give dyes and 19 g for our WM but I don't to avoid the rep hit later
Attack Pisae with units, two elite victories, burn it to the ground gaining 3 slaves

770 ad (turn 2)
Attack Antium, 2 elite victories, losing one horse, burn it to the ground, get three slaves. One creates colony on the wool.
Elite sword attacks lone legionary, wins creating a GL Hanno.
Sell WM to India for 18 g and 9 gpt
Sell WM again to Vikings for 30 g
JS Back in Accripitridae switched to bank, we lose shields but GL will rush it next turn to coincide with Sun Tzu's build
Start repositioning troops in south to heal. Now that we got the GL we needed, I'll back off and let the Romans lick their wounds. I also spy 6 Roman settler pairs. I'll snag those as they try to resettle the newly vacant space.
I'll continue building some caravels, for eventual quick strikes but have scrapped the plan of attacking Thermopylae.
I'm starting to doubt if the ai will research invention fast enough so I decide to switch research to invention to enable us to start pre-building Leonardos. Due in 4 turns. I wasted 1-turn of research on Economics but it was at a slow rate to save for cash.

IBT: Roman settler pairs retreat to Rome

780 ad (turn 3)
Accripitridae builds bank > JS Bachs. Rush with GL Hanno.
Utica builds caravel > next
Reposition southern troops to heal and better cover vacant area leaving an open area for the Romans to send their settlers.
Sell WM and extra spices to Greece for WM, gems, silks and 1 g
We now possess 7 luxuries and our people are very happy. Wool will be hooked up next turn giving us 8 total.

IBT: A couple Roman settler pairs appear. The first(?) Roman knight appears. Lose one horse, one vet archer to Roman troops.

790 bc (turn 4)
The WLTKD is so loud my ears hurt.
Carthage builds Sun Tzu's > bank
Accripitridae builds JS Bach's > Magellan's
Utica builds caravel > next
Leptis Magna buiilds knight > next
Kill one Roman settler pair, knight and legionary. Two elite victories.
Create a colony on the second wool
Sell WM to India for 19 gold
Sell WM to Babylon for 27 gold and 4 gpt
Sell WM to Persians for 38 gold and WM
Sell WM to Vikings for 20 gold

IBT: Lose a hop to legionary

800 ad (turn 5)
Kill one Roman settler pair and legionary
Upgrade 3 horses in Leptis Magna

IBT: One Roman settler pair shows up. India declares on the Persians

810 ad (turn 6)
Learn invention in 4 < gunpowder due in 4 at 90%, -5 gpt
Theveste builds knight < next
Kill Roman settler pair
Sell WM around for 57 gold and 1 gpt
Change Accipitridae to Leonardo's

IBT: Roman legionary and settler pair show up

820 ad (turn 7)
Elite knight kills legionary, GL Hamilco produced. The Heroic Epic is finally paying off
Kill Roman settler pair

IBT: Another Roman settler pair shows up

830 ad (turn 8)
Leptis Magna builds knight > next
GL Hamilco hurries Leonardo's (the more expensive of the wonders available) in Accipitridae
Kill Roman settler pair

IBT: Greek forces destroy the Ottomans. They're shaping up to be our No. 1 rivals. Indian forces attack Persian city of Bactra on our continent.

840 ad (turn 9)
Accipitridae builds Leonardo's > Magellan's

IBT: Roman knight shows up. India will no longer pay 7 gpt for spices. We offer spices for 6 gpt, 3 gold and WM, they accept

850 ad (turn 10)
We learn gunpowder in 4 < chemistry at 90% due in 5 at -13 gpt
Utica builds caravel > next
Destroy Roman knight.
Offer wool to the Indians for 75 gold, WM and 3gpt. They accept.
Sell WM around for 52 gold

Our 20k city at 850 ad:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/20k.jpg

Playing order
Furiey (next)
Zwingli
tao
Demiurge (just played)

Furiey

Oct 12, 2004, 12:07 PM

Elite sword attacks lone legionary, wins creating a GL Hanno. [dance] and there I was still calculating how many spt Greece needed to finish before us!

tao

Oct 12, 2004, 12:15 PM

:beer: Yes! Great progress and finally the Leaders started roling in! :clap: If we can sustain 5 turn research we can switch Magellans's to Newton's: twice the culture at the same price. Or even better: get another Leader. :)

20k culture now 1790AD (Jason time target in GOTM28 1760AD: we will beat it!)

Furiey

Oct 12, 2004, 12:32 PM

As it looks like we head for Newtons and switch to that if we can (unless another leader pops up first, I may be able to get this played tonight, need some food first though. I'll keep a watch on when Civs get Navigation. Just noticed that Bactra has expanded and where our Saltpetre is - hopefully the Indians will take the city and we get that tile back.

We can't quite get 3 cities from the Romans for Peace, but I'll keep an eye on that situation as well just in case we get so many leaders we need the Forbidden Palace to build - I live in hope!

Oh yes: Civ Assist 20k calculation: 1792 AD

edit: cross posted with tao - would the target finish date for 20k change as we're not Religious in this game?

Demiurge

Oct 12, 2004, 04:38 PM

would the target finish date for 20k change as we're not Religious in this game?
I'm not an expert on the Jason calculator by any means, but I assume it would be later for a non-religious civ. That is a guess though. Either way I think we'll beat the Jason-best date. The question is by how much?

Edit/add: Keep in mind that while it might be nice to get three more of the Roman cities to enable us to build the FP, that we also want to keep them strong enough to continue sending out-of-date units at us for leader farming. At least until leaders become useless. If we take too big a bite out of them they will no longer be useful.

Furiey

Oct 12, 2004, 06:10 PM

Sorry - won't finish tonight, will do so tomorrow.

I've been letting the Romans come to me, but there are not many of them coming - I'm considering going for Rome.

A Babylonian Caravel has appeared by our wool colonies. I've blocked so they can't land on open territory, but although they do not have printing press, the Romans do, so we're about to lose our cross continent monopoly - I'll see what I can get for our contacts while I still have the chance.

edit/add: I'd just gone to bed when I had another thought - if we are going to move Lepis Magna perhaps it is soon time to do it. If the Babylonians are arriving (probably to settle the free space), others will follow and our wool colonies will be under threat. I had shut down for the night and have not opened up civ again, so I'm doing this from memory, but is there a good spot that will protect our colonies and possibly even bring us close to the Roman Iron, while not being too far away from our territory, with good production... Hmmm beginning to sound a bit like a wish list rather than reality.

Zwingli

Oct 12, 2004, 07:38 PM

I am going to be without civ for the next 3 days starting tomorrow, so it looks like you will need to skip. With the leader breakthrough, it looks like we are doing well enough anyway :thumbsup:

Demiurge

Oct 12, 2004, 09:07 PM

I've been letting the Romans come to me, but there are not many of them coming - I'm considering going for Rome.
Instead you might think about the possibility of trying two strategic strikes that might not cripple them. Send troops to burn Neapolis, cutting off their trade by burning their only harbor, and send the army and another unit to pillage their only iron source.

tao

Oct 13, 2004, 12:22 AM

edit/add: I'd just gone to bed when I had another thought - if we are going to move Lepis Magna perhaps it is soon time to do it. If the Babylonians are arriving (probably to settle the free space), others will follow and our wool colonies will be under threat. I had shut down for the night and have not opened up civ again, so I'm doing this from memory, but is there a good spot that will protect our colonies and possibly even bring us close to the Roman Iron, while not being too far away from our territory, with good production... Hmmm beginning to sound a bit like a wish list rather than reality.I also thought yesterday evening about moving LM. Checking F1 reveals that it is contributing 10% to our reseach: definitely not enough. But we don't want to delay Newton's. However, after ToG we have to research metallurgy and magnetism and that may be the time for the move.

Demiurge

Oct 13, 2004, 01:41 PM

I got a chance to really read over the first spoiler thread and was curoius to see how we compared to the other two (currently known) 20k games. I compiled a list to assist me in comparing the games and thought others might be interested as well:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/20kcities.jpg

When I first read Team Bede's spoiler, they seemed to be doing quite well but once I compiled the list I came to realize that our game was clearly going better than theirs, especially towards the end of the AA. I included two non-cultural producing improvements in our list because I think it helps to see where we stand overall. The estimated dates are based on where they mentioned starting the improvement and assumes that they rushed it that turn.

X-team was a bit harder to tell and subsequently probably not even a good comparison. AlanH avoided posting dates, as did tao, and took a very story-like approach to their spoiler. Their spoiler stopped at 150 bc, where Bede's went out to 290 ad. As far as I can tell they only built three cultural improvements in that time but I find that hard to believe. Their FP was started in 950 bc. Not sure of the completion date.

Demiurge

Oct 13, 2004, 02:55 PM

Some more thoughts on Rome. It seems to me that the benefits of keeping them around far outweigh the benefits of killing them off. We may want to keep them around for the entire game for a couple reasons.

1. A weak neighbor occupying the rest of our continent would prevent the ai from actively trying to settle our continent and from stealing our resources. As we burn Roman cities, let them resettle them, then burn them again. All the while sitting units all around the wool colony to prevent any other civ from claiming them or from Rome reclaiming them.

2. We continue to harass Rome, preventing them from trading and sit our army on their pillaged iron. They will probably then be producing archers in mass. Large MA cities cranking out AA units. Should be lots of fodder for our own advanced military and increase our chances of getting leaders on the home front. Soon we should be strong enough to take the fight onto foreign shores as well for more leader opportunities and to clip the wings of any potential threats.

Furiey

Oct 13, 2004, 04:05 PM

850 AD (Turn 0): Look about and laugh at Elite “in the Nick of Time”; not sure what to do with the workers, decide they can help road. Press button.

IBT: Deal with Persia ends; only way to renew it with any sort of decent gpt is to include Invention, but we already have Leonado’s so trade ROP, Invention and Ivory for 31gpt and ROP; Roman knight kill lone Hoplite on road to colony; Indian horse covers Saltpetre – I was thinking with the ROP I should put some units on there, but too late.

860 AD (Turn 1): Theveste: Knight->Knight; as have sold Invention to the Persians, decide to sell it to the Indians as well for WM, 36gpt and 36 gold – it should allow us to continue our high rate research for a bit – now at +24gpt (don’t trade with the other continent though); kill Roman knight with Elite Knight (no leader) and cover with Holpite – need a couple more of them.

IBT: Persia demands contact with the Greeks – we refuse, Xerxes back down. Persian Galley leaves Bactra, Indian Horse enters our territory from Saltpetre hill.

870 AD (Turn 2): Carthage: Bank->Hoplite; Leptis Magna: Knight->Hoplite; request Ghandi withdraw his forces he agrees, don’t know if he will though; put a Knight on the Saltpetre; move nearby Sword into Ancippitidae just in case; move Knight from Theveste last turn to Carthage again just in case; build colony on last Ivory – interesting it shows an oyster in the box below the colony.

IBT: Spot a Babylonian caravel off our coast – our cross continent monopoly is about to be broken; Indians keep going S; block landing site for Babylonians – don’t want to lose our Wool colonies;

880 AD (Turn 3): Utica: Caravel->Hoplite; look at contact situation: Babylon does not have Printing Press, so cannot trade contacts unless the other party has it, Rome however does have Printing Press, so would be able to trade contacts; decide to get what I can for them. The other continent seems pretty broke, not so the Persians. Sell all the contacts to Persia for 35gpt, WM and 230 gold – I’m not sure where they’re getting it all from! Sell contact with Babylon and Vikings to India for 6gpt, WM and 21 gold. Sell contact with Rome to Babylon for WM and 13 gold, Germany for WM and 19 gold, Vikings for 1gpt, WM and 26 gold, Keltoi for WM and 7 gold, Greece for WM and 9 gold; Everyone is now completely cleared out, India does not have contact with Greece, Germany and Keltoi, but rather than let to AI trade these give contact with India to Germany and Keltoi (both now polite) and contact with Greece to India. We now have 68gpt from Persia and 72gpt from India and are running at +63gpt at 90% science!

IBT: Babs turn round and go home; Roman Settler and Legion escort appears by our Western stack; Indians continue South

890 AD (Turn 4): Carthage & Leptis Magna: Hoplite->Hoplite; kill Settler Legion with Elite Archer; Notice Persia now has 85 gold despite us clearing everyone out last turn. Move Army and Knight on pillaging mission to Roman Iron; decide not to burn Neapolis yet, we can get 2 cities from Rome not 3, burning Neapolis might well puch that to 3, but we’re not ready to build the FP yet; drop science to 80%, Chemistry in 1.

IBT: Complete Chemistry, set Physics in 5 at 100% (+27gpt – thank you Persia and India); Babs come back; Roman legion appears in Jungle S of wool colonies.

900 AD (Turn 5): Theveste: Knight->Knight; block hole to prevent Babs from landing again; bombard Legion, kill with Elite Knight; move last turn’s Archer and escort back to safety of stack; Army and Knight continue to Iron.

IBT: Babs go away again; Indians continue S.

910 AD (Turn 6): Carthage, Leptis Magna & Utica: Hoplite->Knight; fortify Elite Archer to heal and bring back last turn’s victorious Knight.

IBT: Indians continue S; Roman Knight appears S of wool colonies.

920 AD (Turn 7): bombard Roman Knight, kill with 4/5 Elite Knight; Army fortifies and accompanying Knight pillages the Roman Iron; drop research to 90%, still Physics in 3; notice India has Economics – has not started on Smiths yet though.

IBT: Romans want a peace Treaty – will still only give 2 cities so no, Roman Knight appears; Greeks and Babylonians start Magellan’s Voyage (Thermopylae and Ashur).

930 AD (Turn 8): Move stack S so Roman Knight has to attack across a river, otherwise Zzzzz.

IBT: Roman knight bypasses our stack and kills Hoplite further up; Indian deal for Furs, Iron and Horses finishes; Roman Galley is heading N.

940 AD (Turn 9): Theveste & Carthage: Knight->Knight; get Furs, Horses, 6gpt and 22 gold from India for Navigation (5 other Civs know it) and Ivory; get Iron and 13g from Germany for Chivalry and Engineering – all the other Civs know these anyway; drop research to 80%; notice some war weariness in Leptis Magna.

IBT: Roman Galley appears by Theveste, Indian Horseman now healed heads N again;

950 AD (Turn 10): We learn Physics and start Theory of Gravity at 100%, due in 5. Carthage and Leptis Magna: Knight->Knight; as there is nothing to attack this turn I leave our units for the next player to move. Also running out of things for the slaves to do – they’ve been roading tiles to make shorter routes between cities.

Treasury: 1303 gold, +9 gpt, Theory of Gravity in 5 (100%)

Post-turn: Magellan’s Voyage is due in 5 so it could be switched via the big picture to Newton’s, however, Greece is already building Magellan’s in Thermoplyae. I leave the units still to move as the main stack could either move in to attack a Roman city or move out. There is the first signs of war weariness in Leptis Magna. I set Leptis Magna and Carthage to Knights as a placeholder as I think we probably have enough of them, not sure what to build next though.

Accipitidae Culture: 82 per turn
Civ Assist 20k Prediction: 1792 (still)

Zwingli (skipped)?
tao (up next)?
Demiurge
Furiey (just played)

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/tao_SG004_AD0950_01.SAV)

Furiey

Oct 13, 2004, 04:11 PM

I think I agree with Demiurge about keeping Rome for now at least. When we're ready for the Forbidden Palace trick we can capture rather than raze.

At some point we may want to get rid of Bactra though - it's culture covers our saltpetre - I was hoping the Indians were going to do it for us as we're getting so much in trade, but they're using 1 horse which runs the entire length of our territory to heal after attacking!

Demiurge

Oct 13, 2004, 05:39 PM

After looking at the save, it seems we are now producing many more units than we need to take care of the Romans. If we work out the timing, might we want to set up to strike the Persians, once this next wonder cascade is complete or near to.

By positioning troops off their coast we can capture two of their cities on the Indian continent and Bactra, for reasons Furiey mentioned, to enable us to squeeze in the FP and cut off their source of saltpeter while recovering ours.

tao

Oct 13, 2004, 07:12 PM

Looking at the save:
Magellan's is being constructed by the Greeks in Thermopylae and the Babylonians in Ashur.

We are at war weariness level 1.

India is economics ahead, India the only civ besides us knowing democracy. Vikings, Keltoi, and Germany are backwards.

We have no saltpeter and 13 turns left on a deal with Persia. grrrrr.

Pre-turn:
Move Theveste knight on DW hill to prevent landing on defense-bonus tile. Move Carthage knight on mountain. Send 2 caravel from Utica to Accipitridae for possible future east-coast exhibitions exploring unknown seas on their way. Move Carthage knight to strategic mid-position. Upgrade 2 horses for 80g. Switch Theveste to colosseum to increase culture. Switch LM to hoplite and mm for food. Move workers south. Move troops to prepare pillaging of Roman harbor connection via Neapolis.

IBT Roman galley drops knight in Theveste forest.

960AD (1): Utica b knight s next due in 4 after mm; our silks and incense deals expire. Knight dies trying to kill Roman knight at Theveste, Mid-knight takes revenge. Get silks, 1g, wm from Keltoi for printing press. Do not buy incense from either Greece or Babylon as we don#t need it and might want to raze their Magellan's city. Trade maps netting 36+11+32+26+16+0+1=122g.

IBT Roman knight and longbow move towards our colonies.
Alexander wants democracy which we of course refuse. He declares war.

970AD (2): LM b hoplite s next. Establish embassy in babylon to improve relations.

IBT Germany and Persia sign ma vs. India

980AD (3): we attack Neapolis, but the defense is to strong and our knights retreat. We kill to knights and elite knight kills longbow. Trade maps for 10+8+5+5=28g

990AD (4): Carthage b knight s next; LM b hoplite s knight; cats hit longbow, elite knight kills.
We have pillage the roads to Neapolis, but Rome still has iron and horses. They must have another harbor we don't know of.

1000AD (5): we learn Theory of Gravity and switch Accipitridae to Newton's, which completes immediately afterwards. Start Magellan's.
Magnetism due in 5; I switch LM to settler for preparing the move south.

1010AD (6): LM b settler s next; Theveste b colosseum s catapult. Cats red-line longbow, elite knight kills.

1020AD (7): we raze Neapolis getting 4 slaves, loosing 1 knight, 1 elite kill.

IBT 2 Roman knights attack and our knight elitizes.

1030AD (8): Carthage b knight s next. Lm b settler s next, Theveste b catapult s next

IBT Persian immortal kills the Indian horse

1040AD (9) zzzz

1050AD (10): learn magnetism s metallurgy

Post-turn thoughts:
No Greeks showed up yet. We have 3 turns on the Persian deal and IMHO should declare afterwards (move out to keep reputation) to get the saltpeter.
Leptis Magna can be founded soon, 2 settlers plus worker to be joined. I would prefer to have it just 2 tiles southwest, others might prefer a position claiming wool and iron, but IMHO these we can get by colonies.
We can renew the lux deal with India either this turn or wait until next when a 36gpt one expires.
We should not waste research on military tradition (the Ais will do it for us), but go straight steam-industrialization to get Universal Suffrage.

20k Date: 1776AD

Demiurge (up next)
Furiey
Zwingli (skipped)
tao (just played)

Demiurge

Oct 13, 2004, 08:16 PM

Got it, will play tomorrow.
We have pillaged the roads to Neapolis, but Rome still has iron and horses. They must have another harbor we don't know of.
Out of curiosity, how do you know that? If that is still the case, I would suspect that they are trading through Bactra's harbor and our road network. We can stop that nonsense soon enough. ;)

tao

Oct 14, 2004, 12:00 AM

Got it, will play tomorrow.

Out of curiosity, how do you know that? If that is still the case, I would suspect that they are trading through Bactra's harbor and our road network. To the best of my knowledge, that is impossible, because the Bactra connection would be over our roads and thus is impossible while we are at war with Rome. But the F4 screen show a Roman-Persian trade.
:confused:

Furiey

Oct 14, 2004, 01:59 AM

That trade is strange

It takes us 16 turns to build Magellans and Greece started 8 turns before us, therefore as long as Themopylae has 16 spt or less we should get it (at 17spt they get it the same turn we do). 17spt or they already had shields in the box when they started or they get a leader or... and we don't. It was at 13 spt (after corrruption in the city investigation) at pop 11 with a clown. I don't see any more hills they could use of BG to mine, but they could always plant forest and are running excess food so...

tao

Oct 14, 2004, 02:15 AM

First the good point:
Looking at the tables compiled by Demiurge, I think we are ahead of the other 20k teams because of our early high-culture builds. Missing Sun Tzu's was no big deal.

Now the bad point:
Looking at the submissions table with team Offa having the lead with an 860AD timestamp, I conclude they achieved a conquest victory by that amazing date. That is 24 turns before the GOTM28 jason target date.

There is IMHO no way we get 20k similarly before the 1760AD Jason target date. It may move a few turns later, because we are not religious in this game, but not many. Thus we should also concentrate on lots of happy citizens to increase our score as much as possible.

Some final thoughts:
I did not yet upgrade the caravels to galleons, something we should do before any overseas expeditions.

On the Industrial Age: Since we play the GOTM mod, we need 5 stock exchanges (requiring corporation) to build Wall Street.

Demiurge

Oct 14, 2004, 07:37 AM

One thing you can count on in the SGOTM is stiff competition. Kinda like resource denial on Ainwood's maps. :)

@Furiey: Thanks for figuring that out. I feel pretty confident Magellan's is ours. After looking at Thermopylae again, I would seriously doubt that the ai could get their shield count up that high by now.

On another note: Barring a leader, we will probably not get Smith's since Persia knows economics and can switch. Do we:

A: Want to set up the FP build for turn 12 from now, after Magellan's completes. Using Persian cities.

B: Send out a strike force to disrupt Thermopylae. Babylon is also building Magellan's in Ashur and knows economics. So they'll have a head start on Smith's too.

C. Something I haven't thought of.

tao

Oct 14, 2004, 08:47 AM

I think we are mostly set for the outcome of the game. All we do now will have marginal effects only. Thus let's have some entertainment.
War weariness has started; we should end the Roman war "soon". I say let's raze Rome and make peace for Ravenna, Pompei, and Hispalis once we have Magellan's. We should be able to block our colonies with units/slaves.
Then build the Forbidden palace.
In case we get a Leader, hurry Smith's.
Raze Bactra as soon as possible (in 3 turns) to get saltpeter.
Send 2 galleons to raze Thermopylae and soften Greece for peace. Afterwards go on to Ashur (maybe with enforcements) and raze it also.
What can we expect from the AIs? Units for Leader farming, research of military tradition (Military Academy), nationalism (as free tech), espionage (Intelligence Agency). Not more, I suppose.

Demiurge

Oct 14, 2004, 11:11 AM

1050 ad (pre-turn)
My goals are to move Leptis Magna, destroy Bactra and gather troops for a strike force against Thermopylae and Rome. Counting the number of troops we need to take both I feel more comfortable sending three galleons to Thermopylae and I think we can afford to send 4 more knights. Switch build in Utica to Galleon and upgrade two caravels.

IBT: Persia asks to cancel our ROP and ivory trade.

1060 ad (turn 1)
Leptis Magna builds settler > worker to get it down to size 1 before disbanding.
Gather 7 knights and one persian merc to take out Bactra
We are now at -66 gpt to keep up max research and could use another lux for happiness so I decide to trade around. India and Babylon are the only civs that have anything to spare and selling chemistry is the only way to get enough to continue at our current research rate.
Trade chemistry to the Indians for 37 gold, WM and 97 gpt
Trade chemistry to Babylonians for economics, incense, 33 gold, WM and 5 gpt
Now at +31 gpt at max research
Start positioning some workers to road the saltpeter
Nice use of those slaves, staking them out on tiles to prevent landings.

IBT: Roman archer appears

1070 ad (turn 2)
Carthage builds knight > next
Elite knight kills archer
India will pay another 108 gold and 109 gpt for physics. I hesitate at first, but the gold seems more important at this time since we will be wanting to rush a hospital and a factory in Accipitridae soon. I accept taking us to +138 gpt.
Sell WM to a couple of civs for 19 gold

IBT: Two Greek galleys show up near Theveste. Greeks and Babylonians are building Smith's. One Roman knight appears.

1080 ad (turn 3)
Leptis Magna builds worker, send out three settlers and worker to new site 2 tiles SW of current location.
Disband Leptis Magna, rebuild it. Join 2 settlers and one worker. Set build to temple.
Kill Roman knight with elite knight
Utica builds galleon > knight
All deals with Persia are now over. Send in 7 knights, many redlining and retreating but manage to burn Bactra killing three pikes with no losses and capturing four slaves. Another knight kills Persian Mercenary.
Theveste expands claiming the last ivory and we absorb saltpeter.
Move two horses into Theveste and upgrade to knights to help take care of any Greek forces that might land. Reposition slaves to cover coastal forest and possible landing area.

IBT: Greek galleys move back toward newly vacant area where Bactra was. Roman archer moves into Rome.

1090 ad (turn 4)
Theveste builds knight > next
Move some knights in north to Utica for transport. Others to better defend coastal areas
Rush temple in Leptis Magna
Hook up saltpeter

IBT: Roman archer appears

1100 ad (turn 5)
We learn metallurgy, set steam at 100% in 9 turns at +71 gpt
Leptis Magna builds temple > library
Start repositioning troops in the south to attack Rome
Troops in Utica are healing prior to transport
Kill Roman archer with elite knight

1110 ad (turn 6)
Carthage builds knight > next
WLTKD in Leptis Magna
Rush library in Leptis Magna
Join last native worker to Leptis Magna

1120 ad (turn 7)
Utica builds knight > next
Leptis Magna builds library > market
Load 9 knight into galleons, will pick up three more in the south on the way to Thermopylae

IBT: Greek galley drops off one knight near Acciptridae. Roman archer appears.

1130 ad (turn 8)
Kill Roman archer, Greek knight, promoting one of ours to elite
Position slaves around Acciptridae to prevent landings, prepare for rails

IBT: Persian merc lands near Leptis Magna. Babylonians demand ivory, we tell them to shove it and they back down. Roman knight dies attacking hop, promoting him to elite. Babylonian settler pair appear on northern peninsula

1140 ad (turn 9)
Sell ivory to Babylonians for 72 gold, WM and +5 gpt
Try to start softening up Rome with cats. Go 0 for 4
Kill Persian Mercenary near Leptis Magna
Galleons pick up remaining three knights in the south for 12 total
Reposition two knights on northern peninsula to force Babylonians to settle tip and guarantee that we can't lose the saltpeter again.

IBT: Our deal for furs, horses and iron with the Indians is up. Babylonians build Eridu in the north

1150 ad (turn 10)
Sell metallurgy to Indians for furs, horse, iron, WM, 141 gold and 34 gpt
Sell ivory to Indians for 10 gpt
Bombard Rome, go 2 for 4, wounding two legionaries

Post-turn:
I set you up to take Rome once Magellan's is complete to start the FP. I think you can take it in one, but it might take two so you could start this turn if you want. Obviously don't take it this turn. The cats have been used, wounding two legionaries, but none of the other troops have been moved yet. I can't tell if we're attacking over a river or not so you might want to move the knights onto the wheat before attacking if you think we are.

I would have liked to have a few more knights down there, but I also wanted to get our Galleons loaded and still be able to defend up north. They are unmoved for this turn.

Steam is due in three turns and I started positioning workers near Accipitridae. I wish we had more. The workers near Leptis Magna will complete their tasks prior to steam so you can reposition them then.

Playing order
Furiey (next)
Zwingli
tao
Demiurge (just played)

tao

Oct 14, 2004, 12:42 PM

Since Zwingli will be abroad till late Saturday, we have enough time to plan the next moves.

Minor question: did you sell the LM improvments (32g) before disbanding the city?

Shouldn't we switch Utica to galleon to collect the slaves we make in Thermopylae?

Shouldn't we upgrade catapults to cannons, hoplites to muskets?

<cmd><shift>m shows the river around Rome; we should attack from NW (move units this turn).

We may build a few workers for railroading, to be joined to the new LM afterwards.

We may want to investigate Ashur to learn whether and when we have to declare war on Babylon, hopefully without breaking our deal.

Demiurge

Oct 14, 2004, 01:16 PM

Minor question: did you sell the LM improvments (32g) before disbanding the city?
No. :blush: I rarely disband cities and it didn't even cross my mind.

I held off on upgrading too much since we'll want/need to rush a factory, coal plant in Accipitridae, hopefully after the FP build and before starting Universal Sufferage.

In retrospect, my other mistake was renewing a deal with the Babylonians. That won't expire for 18 turns and we'll be in a position to do them some damage before then...maybe. They may know nationalism by the time we make it over there though so it might be a moot point anyway.

Edit/add: I didn't even know you could command/shift/m to clear the map. And to think I've been control clicking on tiles to find out about them all this time.

Furiey

Oct 14, 2004, 02:04 PM

OK got it, don't know whether I'll get it played tonight (only just in from work) but I'll try.

Furiey

Oct 14, 2004, 02:57 PM

Looking at the save while getting some dinner (hopefully not burning it). We get Magellans in 1 and Steam Power in 3, after Magellans, Forbidden Palace, but what after Steam? We need Nationalism before we can go for Industrialisation, Persia are our best hope for that, but otherwise we could have a wait, so we research it ourselves or go for Medecine/Electricity and Scientific Method and ToE.

Demiurge

Oct 14, 2004, 03:25 PM

I've been crunching some numbers and it kind of piggy backs on your comments. First of all we do not need nationalism for industrialization so I would research that next at all possible speed.

Here's how my numbers are breaking down in trying to figure out if we can still build Smith's before anyone else gets it.

Currently in Accipitridae we are getting 26 spt. That would give us the FP in 8 turns, the same time we will learn industrialization. If you then account for rails our spt in Accipitridae will go up to roughly 39 spt. That means the FP will come in maybe 7 turns since we can't get all the tiles railed immediately.

On turn 7 we pre-build palace for factory and rush the factory on turn 8 via big picture. That will give us a 50% bonus on shield production taking us to roughly 57 spt. On turn 9 rush the coal plant giving us another 50% bonus taking our spt to roughly 85.

If no one has completed Smith's by then it will take us 7-8 turns to build it. A total of 17-18 turns to completion. We just might get it.

Once Magellan's completes I would second tao's suggestion to investigate Ashur to see where they stand that way we'll know for sure.

Furiey

Oct 14, 2004, 04:00 PM

Of course we don't need Nationalism for Industrialisation - I don't know what I was thinking :blush: I blame it on too long a day at work and trying to cook and play Civ at the same time!

Demiurge

Oct 14, 2004, 04:09 PM

Happens to me all the time. I only knew for sure because I was working on stuff at the time.

Just looked at when both the Greeks and Babylonians started their Magellan's build. 23 turns ago. At their rate of production, when they switch to Smith's, they will take about 50 turns total to complete Smith's. Subtract the 23 turns of production already and they will get Smith's in roughly 30 turns at the outside and 20 turns at the minimum.

Furiey

Oct 14, 2004, 04:13 PM

I'll post the Ashur Investigation when I do it (soon), we'll have more info then.

Here it is:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/tao_SGOTM4_AD1160_Ashur.jpg

Ashur is their Forbidden Palace City - it's just scrolled off the improvements area.

Demiurge

Oct 14, 2004, 04:46 PM

If my spt estimates are close to accurate we should indeed get it in time without having to break any deals with the Babylonians. Thermopylae...on the hand gets the ax.

Furiey

Oct 14, 2004, 08:00 PM

1150 AD (Turn 0): Move available forces W across the river to attack Rome next turn; Move Galleons towards Thermopylae. Press button.

IBT: Babs insist we move, we comply for now; Bab Bowman runs about; Greek Caravel and Galley pass across the N; Greeks and Babs start building Smiths (Thermopylae and Ashur); we lose our silks; Roman Knight appears.

1160 AD (Turn 1): We complete Magellan’s voyage in Accipitidae s Palace; Utica: Knight->Knight; get the silks plus WM and 7 gold for Banking; Investigate Ashur for 144 gold – Smith in 22 turns; now for Rome: 1st 4/4 Knight redlines, Legion 2/3; 2nd Knight retreats, new Legion unharmed; our 4/4 Persian Merc defeats 3/3 Legion for no damage; another 4/4 Knight redlines, new Legion now 2/3; 4/4 Knight dies redlining another 3/3 Legion which promotes, 2/3 Legion next up – killed by 4/4 Knight; Elite Knight kills next 2/3 Legion; another Elite Knight kills the remaining Legion and captures Rome. Decide to install a new Governor for now rather than raze Rome – we want to make sure we end up with 3 cities extra. Make peace with Rome for 20 gold, Ravenna and Pompeii and Hispalis; could have razed Rome getting some Workers after all; switch Accipitidae to Forbidden Palace, due in 8; move towards Thermopylae; abandon ex Roman cities – should have got a Worker ready to build a colony on the iron. Our people are happy!

IBT: Greeks look like they’re going to land E of Theveste; Persian Caravel appears S of Leptis Magna; WLTQD gets deafening – even the Indian Jumbo joins in the celebrations!

1170 AD (Turn 2): Theveste: Knight->Knight; move Workers ready to rail; move knights to prevent Greeks landing in Theveste forest; move Galleons to Thermoplyae.

IBT: Greeks go W again; Roman Knight goes home; Persians sail S

1180 AD (Turn 3): We complete Steam Power and start Industrialisation (8 turns at 100%); Hanging Gardens is obsolete; We have coal! :D ; build our first rail; land Knights by Thermopylae.

IBT: Babylon declares War on the Greeks!; Greeks head for Eridu; Indians and Persians start Smiths (Delhi and Susa).

1190 AD (Turn 4): Carthage: Knight->Musket; change Utica to Galleon; build rail; attack Thermopylae: lose 4/4 redlining 3/3 Hoplite after Catapult defence; 4/4 Knight retreats causing no damage on next 3/3 Hoplite; next 4/4 Knight dies promoting Hoplite to 3/4; another Knight dies one new Hoplite now 2/3, Elite* Knight dies on 3/4 Hoplite now 2/4; 4/4 Knight dies promoting 2/3 Hoplite to 2/4; next Knight retreats; next kills our 1st Hoplite! And the next another; and the next another; with 1 Knight to spare we raze Thermopylae! Make peace with Greeks (only WM and 5 gold, but our troops can heal then head for Ashur; head 1 Galleon home with Workers.

IBT: Greeks land 5 Persian Mercs by Eridu; Persians go N; Babs land a Settler in the one spot in the jungle by our colonies that I hadn’t managed to block – that was a job for this coming turn, too late now though :( ; Palace expands

1200 AD (Turn 5): Utica: Galleon->Knight; new Galleon heads for Thermopylae Knights; Worker Galleon continues home; Workers rail; decide not to declare on Babylon yet – we will lose our Iron colony, but are still getting it from India, 13 turns when our deal expires we can raze that city as well as Ashur.

IBT: Greeks land some strange unit; Persians want to talk – they’ll only give us 27 gold though, so decline the Peace offer for now; Babs Settle; Greeks raze Eridu; Persian caravel goes N; Greek Caravel appears by colonies; Keltoi land a Settler by colonies; Roman Settler appears

1210 AD (Turn 6): Theveste: Knight->Knight; Upgrade Hoplite in Carthage and Utica and Catapults in Theveste.

IBT: Greeks land Persian Mercs next to Babs city near our colonies; Babs insist we move, we do, Persains land Settler near where Romans are about to settle; Persians land Knight in Forest near Theveste.

1220 AD (Turn 7): Carthage: Musker->Knight; move Army back to Iron – want to be able to rebuild the colony once the Greeks have got rid of the Bab city; kill Persian Settler escort with Elite Knight for 2 more Workers; kill Persian Knight after bombarding with our first upgraded Cannon; upgrade couple more Hoplites and a Catapult by Leptis Magna; notice Babylon has Nationalism.

IBT: Babs insist we move again; Greeks destroy Samarra (Bab city by our colonies);

1230 AD (Turn 8): Leptis Magna: Market->Courthouse; move back to Iron again, but do not build colony yet. I think another War with Greece is on the cards soon. Accipitridae is at 35 spt after corruption.

IBT: Greeks Settle where our forces were healing, we can move them now though;

1240 AD (Turn 9): complete Forbidden Palace in Accipitidae (Culture now 99 per turn), start Palace; Utica: Knight->Knight; more railing; upgrade couple more Catapults.

IBT: Greeks start Smiths (Athens).

1250 AD (Turn 10): Theveste: Knight->Musket; drop research to 90%, Industrialisation due in 1; more railing

Treasury: 2474 gold, +143 gpt, Industrialisation in 1 (100%)

Post-turn: with Industrialisation due in 1 Accipitridae could be switched to Factory and rushed by the big picture; we have 7 Knights and a Catapult on their way to Ashur, more would be useful after the difficulties at Thermopylae; Babs have Nationalism; Greeks have Persian Mercs fortified by our colonies (I really messed up there :() – we could loose a Wool colony to them as well if we’re not careful; they have units fortified in our territory in the N and are at remove or War, perhaps they will oblige by declaring if we ask. Most of the troops are unused so this could be done in the preturn and the gaps by our colonies plugged. I also have not traded recently. Look under the Army on the Iron - there's a worker there. Some of the Workers railing on their own are railing where they are blocking rather than do nothing while blocking.

Accipitidae Culture: 99 per turn
Civ Assist 20k Prediction: 1766

Zwingli (skipped)?
tao (up next)?
Demiurge
Furiey (just played)

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/tao_SG004_AD1250_01.SAV)

tao

Oct 15, 2004, 02:15 AM

I had a first look at the save and I'm not sure that we should attack Ashur. It is size 9 on a hill and our knights will have a very small chance to kill riflemen. Hammu might even draft an additional conscript the turn we land. And we would break our treaty with him.

The better odds might be making Greece to declare war and hope for another Leader to hurry Smith's. We could build an "elite moving railroad" over 2 or 3 turns to ensure that all our available elite units can attack after the Greeks are weakened by cannon shots.

Once the peace with Rome has expired, I suggest getting rid of Caesar and colonizing/blocking the southern wools also. We could leave the extreme south open for the other civs to settle in order to have easy targets in case they don't behave properly. ;)

Furiey

Oct 15, 2004, 08:09 AM

Looking now I also think Greece is a better bet than Ashur (the Galleons haven't gone far) - if they build a colony by our Wool we'll need to get rid of it anyway. I'm pretty sure that if we ask them to move their forces fortified in our territory in the north they will declare. Another option with Ashur could be a pillaging operation with the Knights to slow down production rather than an all out attack and raze. I think they'll probably just beat us to Smiths (unless we get a Leader) unless we do something.

Now the workers have railed Accipitridae I left them connecting it with Leptis Magna - a rail net will make a big difference. Good idea using Workers to block - I also used Catapults until I withdrew them for upgrade.

While Rome still provides useful target practice for our Elites, which means another war (once War Weariness is out of the way) whether we wipe them out or not, they might as well stay. Once they stop giving our Elites something to do they should go.

tao

Oct 15, 2004, 09:56 AM

Since we are a fast playing team, I suppose we can do another complete round before Zwingli returns and thus play the next set of turns:

Peaking at the Greek units reveals Alexander being in "leave or declare war" status and furious. Thus I assume he will declare. Therefore I decide not to both ruin our reputation and extremely gamble on war luck by attacking Ashur, but to hope for another Leader in killing the Greeks. Since several civs have now started to build it, this would really break the cascade and give us room to build Universal Suffrage and the other wonders large and small of Industrial Times.

Pre-turn:
Shuffle some troops to prepare elite attacks on Greeks. Some deals will expire next turn and we will wait till then before making any new commitments. Hit return.

IBT Keltoi settle on the south-west coast, but far enough away from our colonies.

(1) 1255: learn industrialization and switch to factories via big picture; incense deal expires; hurry factory in Accipitridae for 680g and mm for food; continue troop shuffling and railroading.
babylon gives incense + 6g for spices.
research corporation due in 7 at 100%, +15gpt

IBT German and Greece sign ma vs. Babylon, Germany dow on Babylon

(2) 1260: Accipitridae b factory s coal plant. Workers complete railroad to colonies.
Switch LM to university, since we loose less than 15% to waste and corruption.
We politely ask the Greek immortal to leave or declare war and furious Alexander declares. :)
Our cannons arrive and red-line 2 immortals. Elite hoplite attacks and dies, promoting immortal; cannon red-lines again. Two elite knights finish the job. Cannons red-line by hit-miss-hit the 3rd southern immortal, and the elite archers kills him. 3 elite wins and no leader. :( Withdraw our vet knights from the northern immortals to leave the killing to elite units.
Work on Accipitridae coal plant: disband hoplite, hurry ironclad, disband 2 knights, and due in 1 turn.
Donate 100g to Bismarck and sell him pp for 164g and wm: he is now polite.
Ghandi gives 47g, 55gpt, wm for theory of gravity. We still give him spices and wool for 9gpt: much too cheap and we cancel the deal and renew it for 28gpt.
Research can be lowered to 90% and we are at +15gpt.

IBT we see 2 persian caravels heading for the Theveste coastline. Welcome.

(3) 1265: Accipitridae b coal plant s Universal Suffrage.
Our cannons hit the northern immortals, we have 3 elite knight and 1 elite archer kill, but no Leader :(
Workers continue railroading, block southern coast.

(4) 1270: workers work, troops heal.

(5) 1275: Greek corps is back and the knights free workers from blocking duty.

IBT Ashur completes Smith's :(; Indians land settler in the north.

(6) 1280: Leptis Magna's culture expands; workers work, block Indian's settler from moving south, block all forest tiles at Theveste against Persian landings.
India knows military tradition; we will strike a deal in 3 turns, when the resource deal expires.

IBT India founds Jaipur, Persia drops lone pike.

(7) 1285: cannons red-line pike, elite archers makes the kill and Great Leader Hasdrubal appears. We have 8 turns left on Universal Suffrage: what to do? Toying with the culture spreadsheet shows: hurrying US will move 20k date to 1760, switching to and finishing Palace, hurrying US will advance it to 1758. Since we have military academy and then army as pre-build, I choose the latter variant.

IBT Xerxes drops 2 knights near Theveste.

(8) 1290: learn industrialization, start medicine due in 7. Carthage b factory s stock exchange, Accipitridae b Palace s Universal Suffrage hurried by Hasdrubal.
Cannons red-line the 2 knights, elite knights make the kills: no Leader.

(9) 1295: US in Accipitridae s stock exchange. Our iron, horses, furs deal with India expires.
India gives military tradition, 11g, furs, horses, 80gpt for steam. Colonize the iron.
Disband mercenary and hurry stock exchange in Accipitridae for 760g.
Upgrade 7 knights to cavalry for 70g.

IBT Vikings, Babylon sign mpp; polution hits us for the first time.

(10) 1300: Accipitridae b stock exchange s Military Academy; Utica b factory s stock exchange.

Post-turn:
Soon we can go for Rome, but we might want to delay it until we are close to scientific method (Theory of Evolution). Remember: We need 5 stock exchanges for Wall Street. (Maybe we should switch LM to bank loosing some shields? IMHO better not; we might disband units for rushing if we don't have enough cash.) At Theveste, we can speed the stock exchange by lumbering. We might also want to disband our archer army soon; it would give us a much better pre-build in Accipitridae than the Palace ever was.

20k forecast: 1758AD :D

Demiurge (up next)
Furiey
Zwingli (skipped)
tao (just played)

Demiurge

Oct 15, 2004, 11:45 AM

Got it, will play later today.

If we just could have gotten that leader a few turns earlier. Oh well. Just missed it.

Onto my turns. What to research next? Go for sanitation and hospitals and then straight for TOE? The build order in Accipitridae would then be to complete the military academy, timing the stock exchanges to complete that turn. Then wall street, rush hospital if possible (maybe using the army if we don't have enough cash) then to palace pre-build for TOE while we reseach toward scientific method.

tao

Oct 15, 2004, 12:11 PM

What to research next? Go for sanitation and hospitals and then straight for TOE? The build order in Accipitridae would then be to complete the military academy, timing the stock exchanges to complete that turn. Then wall street, rush hospital if possible (maybe using the army if we don't have enough cash) then to palace pre-build for TOE while we reseach toward scientific method.Yes, I think sanitation is the way to go. Larger pop will increase score and research capability. We currently already have 68spt in Accipitridae allowing to build ToE in 9 turns. Having 5 hospitals will also allow for Battlefield Medicine (with meager 1 culture point).

Please note: we have the Palace also moved to Accipitridae. Thus pre-build must be done with an army (after disbanding the archer gang).

Furiey

Oct 15, 2004, 01:49 PM

Good - we got the leader - at last (again), just a couple of turns earlier, but that's in the hands of the RNG gods.

The forest by Utica that is being chopped has already been chopped once so will produce no shields, the forest next to it though has not been chopped as far as I can remember or check. Some of the forest around Theveste has also been felled in the past, so felling will not always produce shields. Carthage can get the Stock Exchange in 3 if the irrigated grass is moved to the unrailed mine.

City screen is getting crowded with both the Palace and Forbidden Palace.

Sanitation > (Electricity) >Scientific Method appears the way to go then - usual 2 techs from ToE for Hoover followed by Replaceable Parts?

PS: had this post sitting round for ages and forgot to press the post button :blush:

tao

Oct 15, 2004, 03:43 PM

Sanitation > (Electricity) >Scientific Method appears the way to go then - usual 2 techs from ToE for Hoover followed by Replaceable Parts?This is the usual way. However, if the AIs don't research espionage, we might want to do it before rep parts: Intelligence Agency gives another culture point.

PS: We have to get rid of Rome. Only afterwards can we join Roman workers to our cities without problems to increase pop fast.

Demiurge

Oct 15, 2004, 05:15 PM

1300 ad (pre-turn)
Hit return

IBT: Three Persian immortals land near bait city, Theveste. We lost our supply of silks

1305 ad (turn 1)
The immortal landing caused us to be one shield short of completing the factory in Theveste
Bombard immortals, three elite knights emerge victorious

IBT: Persian frigate appears near Leptis Magna

1310 ad (turn 2)
Theveste builds factory > stock exchange
Leptis Magna builds university > bank
Disband knight in Leptis Magna, rush colosseum, rush bank
Send three squads of lumberjacks to Theveste to speed stock exchange by chopping three unused forests
Bombard frigate, redlining it and destroy it with a galleon

IBT: Forests harvested near Theveste for 30 shields

1315 ad (turn 3)
Leptis Magna completes bank > stock exchange
Replant two forests near Theveste
Disband persian merc in Leptis Magna, rush cathedral, stock exchange in 3. With some additional shields from chopping two more forests near Theveste we'll now have five stock exchanges in 3 turns when military academy completes
Medicine in one, reduce sci to 70%. Indians know medicine now.

1320 ad (turn 4)
We learn medicine > sanitation at 100% in 6
Carthage builds stock exchange > cavalry
Chop two forests near Theveste

1325 ad (turn 5)
Workers rail, no troops have shown up in two turns

IBT: Persian frigate near Leptis Magna. Persian frigate and caravel drop two knights off near Theveste.

1330 ad (turn 6)
Utica builds stock exchange > ironclad
Theveste builds stock exchange > cavalry
Carthage builds cavalry > next
Leptis Magna builds stock exchange > factory
Accipitridae builds military academy > wall street
Cannons bombard persian knights, two elite victories near Theveste
Cannons red-line frigate, galleon dies promoting frigate, cannon red-lines again, galleon sinks frigate

1335 ad (turn 7)
3 turns to sanitation, change current builds to pre-builds in Carthage, Theveste and Utica

IBT: Germany and Greece sign a trade embargo against us

1340 ad (turn 8)
zzzzzzz

IBT: Persia and Keltoi have signed MA against us. Keltoi declare war on us.

1345 ad (turn 9)
Reduce science to 70%, sanitation in 1

1350 ad (turn 10)
We learn sanitation > electricity at 100%, due in 9
Switch pre-builds in Carthage, Theveste and Utica to hospitals via big picture
Carthage builds hospital > cavalry
Theveste builds hospital > cavalry
Utica builds hospital > ironclad

Playing order
Furiey (next)
Zwingli
tao
Demiurge (just played)

tao

Oct 15, 2004, 07:56 PM

IBT: Persia and Keltoi have signed MA against us. Keltoi declare war on us.Why didn't you raze Verulamium with our elite knights? It only has spear defender(s).

Comments on the future:
Accipitridae has 72 spt, hospital costs 160 shields; thus disbanding the army (cost 400 -> 100 shields) will give hopital in 1 turn. :)

Army (400 shields) can serve as a pre-build for ToE for 6 more turns, i.e. 8 turns from "today", perfectly aligned with researching electronics.

IMHO what we need now is luxuries to keep our people happy. Thus make peace with Greece soon (maybe in 2 turns when we will struck a new deal with India), declare war on Germany and sign an ma with Greece to break their embargo against us.

What we need also is to join workers to our cities for growth. Thus Rome has to go asap to make their slaves "joinable" without running into unhappiness.

I don't like coastal forests because they give a defense bonus to landing troops. Now we can cut all of them and build mines instead.

PS: Including Wall Street, 20k date is now 1754AD.

PPS: We have 3 barracks for sale. Shoudn't we build granaries in Accipitridae and Utica?

Furiey

Oct 16, 2004, 05:34 AM

OK got it.

Furiey

Oct 16, 2004, 01:07 PM

1350 AD (Turn 0): Sell Barracks in Utica, Theveste and Carthage – I hadn’t noticed we still had those; the Elite Knights need some exercise – 1st Knight retreats leaving Spear 2/3 :( , 2nd Elite is redlined but razes Verulaneum (or whatever it was called) capturing a Settler and gaining another Worker from the city. Press button.

IBT:

1355 AD (Turn 1): We complete Wall Street, set Hospital; disband Army giving Hospital in 1; grrrr - Rome has a Musket in Cumae – debate whether to declare on them this turn or not, eventually decide as the Persians are about to land in the N, next turn will be the time for Peace and War; use Workers this time with that in mind.

IBT: Our Incense deal expires, Hammurabi has obviously lost his spare incense – he will not renew the deal for anything; several Persian ships approach Theveste, Keltoi Galley spotted near colonies.

1360 AD (Turn 2): Carthage: Cavalry>Coliseum; Accipitidae: Hospital->Army; Theveste: Cavalry->Cavalry; we are now at –29gpt, need to do some more deals – the Indians have sold their Furs to someone else :( make Peace with Greece for Free Artistry and 30 gold; declare war on Germany; get alliance with Greece against Germany, 33 gpt and 57 gold for Sanitation (wouldn’t take anything less, neither would they sell nationalism as part of it); sell wool, spices and ivory to India for 39gpt and 38 gold; sell spices to Greece for incense and gems; make Peace with the Persian for 100 gold – don’t want to be distracted by them in the N when I’m dealing with Romans. Attack Cumae – it takes 3 Elite Knights and 4 Veteran Cavalry to defeat 1 Musket, 1 Legion and 1 Knight, we lose 1 Cavalry, most are redlined; raze Cumae capturing 7 roman Workers (2 Settlers); attack Rome, this time 4/4 Cav defeats the Musket defending with no injury, raze the city getting 3 Workers (another Settler); change Utica Ironclad to Cavalry.

IBT: Persia and Germany sign a Trade Embargo against us; Roman Knight dies attacking a Cavalry; 2 Roman Settler/Escort pairs appear; Pollutions strikes Utica

1365 AD (Turn 3): Utica: Cavalry->Cavalry; Palace expands – after much debating over which architectural style to choose, decide to keep the wings symmetrical ;) ;move in to Veii

IBT: Keltoi ships move N

1370 AD (Turn 4): Theveste: Cavalry->Cavalry; Veii (Musket, Legion and Pike) falls to 4 Cav and 3 Knights for the loss of 1 Cav; Antium falls to a single Cavalry, as does the final city (forgot it’s name); the Romans are no more. Build colony on Wool and sell to Greece for Dyes, 12 gpt, 20 gold and WM; build barricade around ex Roman Wool; get confused about what luxes we’re importing – city screen shows we’re importing Silk, Trade Advisor say’s we’re not? Keltoi have spare Silk they might trade for some Wool once we’ve built another colony and are at peace – maybe next turn?

IBT: Persia and Keltoi sign a Trade Embargo against us – should have traded for those silks last turn. Palace expands again.

1375 AD (Turn 5): Carthage: Coliseum->Coal Plant; Utica: Cavalry->Granary; build 1 more colony, rail, chop and rearrange troops. Indians approach the S

IBT: Keltoi land 2 of their sword units; Theveste: Cavalry->Cavalry; notice Lahore has both coal and iron; move troops so Indians won’t settle on hills (easier to raze if we have to later) – on second thoughts protect that bit of coast altogether – we may want a colony on that coal; realise we’re going to build the Army in 2, Electricity in 3, but then we need Scientific Method anyway for ToE.

1380 AD (Turn 6): Elite Knights defeat Keltoi European Swords; workers rail and chop.

IBT: Keltoi ships go home; Indians go S;

1385 AD (Turn 7): Utica: Granary->Coliseum; Leptis Magna: Factory->Granary; move a Cav to ensure Indians settle right on the tip; workers rail; drop research to 70%, still Electricity in 2.

IBT: Keltoi want Peace, but will only give 3gpt, decide to wait as they’ll have to break their Trade Embargos before we can trade with them; Indians land a Settler, Spear and Cavalry on the tip of our continent; Persian Ironclad sighted.

1390 AD (Turn 8): Accipitridae: Army->*!!’$£%! forgot armies are limited by the number of cities and we can’t build another, Set Granary for now :( ; Theveste: Cavalry->Musket; check and it’ll take 6 turns to research Scientific method, the same as it takes to build an Army; therefore decide to leave Utica on Granary for the 1 turn to complete Electricity, use the build Army to rush something (sigh – wasteful) then start Army again to be switch via big picture for ToE; am about to change Leptis Magna to Hospital and disband Army there, when I realise it grows in 2, so if I let it finish the Granary in 1 and can rush the hospital the next turn just before it grows with a full Granary; Science to 60%, Electricity in 1.

IBT: Keltoi drop a Warrior and Spear by Theveste; Indians Settle Hyperbad; deal for Furs and Horses ends.

1395 AD (Turn 9): We research Electricity and start Scientific Method at 100% due in 6; Carthage: Coal Plant->Musket; Accipitridae: Granary->Cavalry (placeholder for Army, placeholder for ToE); Leptis Magna: Granary->Hospital; attack Keltoi: Elite Knight redlined defeating 3/3 Spear; 2nd Elite Knight defeats 3/3 Warrior producing Great Leader Hamilcar. Now we’ll have the Army to build ToE then be immediately able to Rush Hoover, or not have to prebuild and rush ToE.

IBT: Persian and Keltoi ships move; Pollution strikes.

1400 AD (Turn 10): Carthage: Musket->Cavalry; Utica Coliseum->Cavalry; Theveste: Musket->Musket; rail more; clear pollution; Change Accipitridae to Army due in 5.

Treasury: 1207 gold, +20 gpt, Scientific Method in 5 (100%)

Post-turn: Keltoi in the N will probably land by Theveste, those in the W are going S. Should have traded Sanitation around when trading it the first time, but didn’t so missed out as the Civs traded it themselves; didn’t particularly want to trade Industrialisation, but it was either that or Electricity. Greece is becoming a monster. Utica still needs a Granary before it next grows. I was going to join some Workers this time, but ended up using them up clearing pollution.

Accipitidae Culture: 117 per turn
Civ Assist 20k Prediction: 1754

Zwingli (up next)
tao
Demiurge
Furiey (just played)

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/tao_SG004_AD1400_01.SAV)

tao

Oct 16, 2004, 05:23 PM

Execellent getting rid of Rome and claiming The South and getting Hamilcar. Now we have ToE and Hoover in the bag. Battlefield Medicine afterwards. And we can start joining Roman workers to our cities.

Notes on how to continue:
There is an uncovered tile south of the eastcoast wool colonies; cover it with a hoplite immediately to prevent landings!

Germany has to go, since they have an embargo against us. Send expedition corps to raze Frankfurt, Leipzig, Berlin to keep our cavalry trained?

Elite* knight Hamilcat at Theveste plus some more should be upgraded.

I would build frigates in Utica (ironclads are too slow to escort galeons). And LM should get a harbor next; we need a navy base in case a war against Persia or India starts.

I would trade for nationalism. We want the AIs to help researching (if possible) and thus I see no reason not to trade.

I would immediately cancel the ivory deal with Babylon and trade it to Greece instead; we have to stay "good friends" with Alexander.

Furiey

Oct 16, 2004, 05:55 PM

Well spotted with the uncovered tile - it was being blocked by workers clearing the forest who moved on to other things this turn, so at least it hasn't been left open in an IBT.

Persia has several ships moving about and although we made Peace they soon after declared a Trade Embargo against us. They'll be back, so another Naval base would be useful, and also allow LM to grow further as we join Workers. A Courthouse might also be useful - it is our most corrupt city

Although I left Carthage on Cavalry and Theveste on Musket, Carthage can now build a Musket in 1, Cav in 2, while Theveste builds both in 2. It would therefore be better the other way around.

Germany is rapidly going already - they are being eaten up by the Greeks. But if we can get there in time to give our Cavalry a bit of exercise - that trade embargo is getting annoying.

I was getting concerned about being able to sustain our income. It is spread between Greece and India now. Greece has around 50gpt free if we had something to sell them for it. They were willing to offer 77gpt for first go at Industrialisation, 78 was completely out so at their limit. We needed the Lux and Horses however, and the Indians were driving a hard bargain... After the Indian deal I only got 27gpt and Horses from Greece.

I did not colonise the Coal, Greece has it but has not connected it up which they will do sooner or later. I'm not sure I want to feed the monster that Greece is becoming, but I do wonder what they would give us for coal in the meantime.

edit/add: I looked at trading for Nationalism several times, but they all wanted so much for it that it would seriously dent our income. Although our coffers are healthy now, at several points I felt that we would have to reduce our research - we were down to under 200 gold at one time and -39gpt

As for Babylon's Ivory - Yes let the Greeks have it. We now have another Wool to trade around, they can have that. We can build another colony on the final Wool to trade to the Keltoi for Silks.

edit/add 2: 72 turns to current 20k prediction.

tao

Oct 17, 2004, 01:20 AM

edit/add: I looked at trading for Nationalism several times, but they all wanted so much for it that it would seriously dent our income. Although our coffers are healthy now, at several points I felt that we would have to reduce our research - we were down to under 200 gold at one time and -39gptIndia is offering nationalism, 197g, 1gp, wm for corporation (Greece does not even agree to exchange nationalism-corporation).

And I would spend 72g to establish an embassy with India ro improve relations, maybe rop, but then we have to blockade Jaipur.

tao

Oct 17, 2004, 02:22 AM

Newsflash
I just looked at the submission page and team Bede has logged a 1780AD save. I conclude this to be their 20k victory.

This made me look at our save again:
Next turn, we should assign the mine from Carthage to Accipitridae and mine the irrigated plains. This will allow us to advance building ToE by 1 turn (says my spreadsheet). Followed by Hoover, Battlefield Medicine, Intelligence Agency, our 20k date will be 1745AD. :D :goodjob:

PS: The turn prior, we have 19.918 cp, thus even if we reach the Modern Age culture buildings, it won't help us. Or does it? If we push the AI research?

Furiey

Oct 17, 2004, 03:20 AM

Excellent News

I had been looking at the Tech Tree and thinking that we had a lot to research before we got any more Wonders and unless we wanted a gap when we were not building anything we would have to hurry the tech pace anyway.

Looking at what is left and turns to research:

Espionage 6
Refining 10
Steel 8
Replaceable Parts 8
Combustion 10
Flight 11
Mass Production 8
Motorised Transport 8
Radio 12
Total 81 (72 turns currently to 20k, 69 turns to 1745)It's then 16 turns for Fission (UN = 4 and Manhattan = 2) and 15 for Computers ( Seti = 3). What's the free tech for scientific in vanilla - I can never remember? Is it Fission?

But how much can we reduce that? Halve it? Get the next Wonder by turn 40?

If assuming the Modern Age free tech has a Wonder and we can get buy it straight away does it help? (I've been using Civ Assist for 20k date - never got around to filling in the spreadsheet as well although I always meant to for future predictions as you can't include wonders you haven't got.) There are only 29 turns to the predicted 1745 20k date.

for 1 turn earlier we need an extra 82 culture in 28 turns. UN will give 84 Culture in 21 turns so IF we build it turn 47 we could get a turn earlier. A turn earlier still? Then we need an extra 208 culture! UN would give 108 assuming we get it turn 40, leaving a 100 extra culture required.

tao

Oct 17, 2004, 03:39 AM

What's the free tech for scientific in vanilla - I can never remember? Is it Fission?Regrettably it's mostly rocketry. :(

With aggressive tech trading, we might(!) get espionage from the AIs. And if we go for radio (after rep parts, which we need for faster workers to clean the pollution and for its military benefit), we might get (parts of?) refining or steel.

And once we aggressively join workers, our research capability should nearly double. Or did you include this in your calculations already?

Furiey

Oct 17, 2004, 03:48 AM

No - that was assuming our current beaker production of 468 per turn continued.

assuming we increase our research to 800 per turn:
Espionage 4
Refining 6
Steel 5
Replaceable Parts 5
Combustion 6
Flight 6
Mass Production 5
Motorised Transport 5
Radio 7
Total 49 Making it look more doable!

edit: Pushing on the tech pace though will mean a Greece with Infantry and Tanks. We will have to be careful with our wars! It would probably be less risky to hang on for what we can get now, but even 1 turn difference could make a difference in the race with the other teams, particularly as I would guess that the Jason date for 20k is the one that changed most with the loss of the Religious trait.

Joining Romans (we must make sure it is Romans) to our cities is a must ASAP. Luxes will be vital - so as we discussed: peace with the Keltoi and break the trade embargos to get the Silk for Wool, and the switch with the Ivory from Babs to Greece, with Babs getting the Wool.

tao

Oct 17, 2004, 04:03 AM

edit: Pushing on the tech pace though will mean a Greece with Infantry and Tanks.I'm not worried; if we have a nice stack of artillery, we can defeat each invasion with ease.

Furiey

Oct 17, 2004, 04:08 AM

Our Artillery could come off blocking duty for a turn, but we also lose the luxes, we get currently 3 off them...

I think we have to go for it though!

Zwingli

Oct 17, 2004, 02:16 PM

It looks like there has been a huge amount of progress since I left :).
Got it, but will take until tomorrow to finish after reading through the turn logs.

Zwingli

Oct 19, 2004, 12:30 AM

1400 AD (0)
Wake a worker and join it to Accipitridae. Trade and/or gift Electricity and Corporation around to India, Persia, and Greece (they will all start working on Replacable Parts unless they were researching Espionage). Make peace with Keltoi giving Physics for their spare gold.

As a result of the trading we have Nationalism + 188gpt and India has become polite.

1405 AD (1)
Aggressively join a whole bunch of Roman workers to our cities shaving a turn off Scientific Method. Send a task force toward Germany.

1410 AD (2)
Join more workers and start a courthouse in Carthage.

1415 AD (3)
Keltoi declare war on Greece.

1420 AD (4)
We learn Scientific Method and switch Accipitridae to TOE due in 3 turns, since we can't learn a tech in that time, research is shut off.

Germany is down to one city.

1425 AD (5)
Persia builds a city to our South on the open area on our continent

1430 AD (6)
Greece and Babylon sign peace

IBT- We finish TOE and learn Atomic Theory and Electronics, start Espionage.

1435 AD (7)
The Greeks found a gap in our shore blockade and build another city, because we have ROP, we can still block off their city unless it expands borders. We destroy the Germans at Frankfurt with two elite units (after using the leader) and the embargo against us with Persia ends.

We leader rush Hoover Dam, and set a couple of oversized metropolis to peel of a worker to join elsewhere.

IBT- Complete Hoover, start Battlefield Medicine.

1440 AD (8)
Sell off the Coal Plant in Accipitridae. We have a new source of coal (appeared) and Greece lacks coal.

1445 AD (9)
Buy Communism from Babylon for Industrialization + Scientific Method + 1000g
Sell Corporation to Babylon to get our gold back, then sell Communism to the other leading AI for asking price (not much). I left India with some gpt left to let them research.

Shave a turn off of Battlefield Medicine by mining all tiles around Accipitridae and starving the city temporarily. Rush Police stations in all other cities as there isn't much else to do with all our gold and they will slightly increase science rate.

1450 AD (10)
Turn down science with Espionage still due in 1.

Post-Turn
I think the AI will research Replacable Parts for us if we reseach other paths first. Since it gives the militia unit plus artillery plus infantry plus rubber plus faster workers, it is attractive for the AI to research compared with Steel, Refining, or Atomic Theory. We should also probably research Flight last since it will make the Colossus obsolete.

tao

Oct 19, 2004, 01:58 AM

Got it, will play tonite.

tao

Oct 19, 2004, 09:32 AM

I think the AI will research Replacable Parts for us if we reseach other paths first. Since it gives the militia unit plus artillery plus infantry plus rubber plus faster workers, it is attractive for the AI to research compared with Steel, Refining, or Atomic Theory. We should also probably research Flight last since it will make the Colossus obsolete.We have the following choice (at 100%, 706 beakers):
radio (8 turns)
replaceable parts (6 turns)
refining (7 turns)
steel (6 turns)
We have 1 turn left on espionage. Afterwards, I probably will do radio, since in my experience it is the least likely candidate for AI research.

Despite of Zwingli's argument, I tend to do rep parts afterwards, because of the great benefit artillery will give us to both kill invaders and fight ships bombarding our shores.

Hopefully, the AI has done refining and/or steel by then.

This adds up to 40 - 53 turns in the industrial age (till between 1650AD and 1715AD), and I suppose 12(?) for the 1st (and probably only) Modern Times tech. Then we are in the years between 1710AD and 1760AD.

We might want to do Computers with SETI (we have to have a Leader ready) and research lab. IMHO UN and Manhattan Project give 1 more culture point, but we don't want to open Pandora's box. Let's calculate possible benefit (if any) when the time to decide comes.

Thus in the best case we get about 8 turns of 3 culture and 7 turns of 2 culture, in total 38 culture points.

Did I do this correct?

Once we have finished the IA and Battlefield, we will know whether this will be of any help. If not, we could use the money to increase our score by making citizens happy.

tao

Oct 19, 2004, 04:20 PM

Pre-turn:
change Utica and LM to frigates (1 turn builds), in case pesky Persians will try to bombard our shores; sell now worthless coal plant in Carthage for 20g

IBT Keltoi and Greece sign peace treaty

1455: we learn espionage start radio due in 8 at 100%, +209gpt (after deals), switch Accipitridae to Intelligence Agency due in 2
call galleons from Germany war back, send frigate to east-coast; upgrade some units
irrigate 2 Accipitridae mines to stop starvation; irrigate Theveste tile to stop starvation
donate 110g to Babylon, sell espionage for 65gpt, 182g, wm
donate 110g to Greece, sell espionage for 140g, wm
donate espionage to India, Persia
donate 110g to Keltoi, sell magnetism for 125g, wm
get wm, 9g from Vikings for wm

IBT pollution at LM; Keltoi galley close to south-eastern coast

1460: clear pollution; ships sail, distribute some troops; irrigate Carthage cow, join some workers
Greece deals incense, gems for spices; cancel the deal; renew incense, gems, wm, 7gpt for spices; donate Alex 7gpt
India gives 39gpt for spices, wool, ivory; cancel the deal; renew 45gpt, 42g, wm for spices, wool, ivory; donate 5gpt

IBT Keltoi drop settler and spear

1465: Intelligence Agency in Accipitridae s Battlefield Medicine due in 7
mine 2 Accipitridae tiles to get BM in 6 instead of 7 turns (even if pollution)
our galleys drop all units before going on to LM

IBT Viking galley appears near Greek Qitaiodea (next to our wool and iron colonies); let's hope they raze it; Keltoi found Verulamium

1470: shuffle troops; science down to 90%, 10% lux fore score; make room for Viking landing, in case they don't have berserks in galley

IBT trade embargo against us between Persia and Keltoi ends
Viking berserk razes Qitaiodea destroying 2 ships :D and taking pressure from our colonies
pollution strikes Theveste hill

1475: trade Keltoi wool, 1gpt for silks, wm, 1g
our frigate takes a peak at Oslo and it is defended by a spear only: time for a little raiding party to depose the Keltoi as potential lux competitor and naval attack threat (they are still at war with Greece); send 3 galleons from Accipitridae with 4 elite units

1480: Nidaros is also spear-defended :)
change 1st Accipitridae mine back to irrigation

IBT Greek frigate and galleon appear near Oslo, but we are 1 turn faster :)
2nd Persian convoy arrives in Gordium

1485: colonize another wool; change 2nd Accipitridae mine back to irrigation, now on food surplus again
trade wool to Babylon for 81g, wm and Hammurabi turns polite
trade wm to Vikings for wm, 2g; declare war; ships enter Viking waters and see galloglas (berserk) next to Oslo; block see access for Greek ships; frigates red-line galloglas; troops land

IBT Viking caravel moves north, pollution strikes Theveste, Greek convoy sails on to Nidaros

1490: frigate sinks Viking caravel getting red-lined; we attack Oslo: cavalry kills spear; elite knight red-lines spear and dies; elite cavalry kills spear; elite knight kills red-lined spear and razes Oslo giving 3 slaves; move towards Nidaros; make another slave; clean Theveste pollution, mm
change 7 scientist into taxmen (radio still in 1)

IBT Greek convoy moves on to Bjoergwin

1495: learn radio start replaceable parts due in 6 at 90% 810% lux for happiness/sccore); Battlefield Medicine in Accipitridae s coastal fortress; furs and horse deal w India ends; since several deals giving us gpt end next turn, we do not renew the deal immediately, since there are enough furs and horses available; do some mm

20k date is 1745AD; if we build SETI not later than 1670 (assuming we have a Leader by then) AND research lab 1675, it drops to 1740; later builds will have no effect (this is also better than UN and Manhattan, unless we get a Leader the exact turn we need it -- highly unlikely)

1500: Accipitridae b coastal fortress s wealth; drop Viking slaves at nearest coast
science down to 80% ???: India has replaceable parts; and is willing to give replaceable parts, horses, furs, 200g, wm, 120 gpt for atomic
Greece is willing to give 47gpt for atomic

Firaxis 711, Jason 941

post-turn:
I do NOT do the deals to be done this turn but leave it to the next player; we might want to NOT take the gpt from the AIs (we don't need it) in order to allow the AIs to research faster (I recommend doing so - or get it and donate it back); but we have to GET the Greek dyes and Greek or Indian furs!
donate replaceable parts to the Greece (at least, I'm not so sure Persia and Babylon should get it)
whether to research refining or steel? probably the AI goes refining, but I was wrong before ...
use lux and mm the cities for happiness (score) unless we need the research beakers; switch between scientists and taxmen for optimum output
I decided to move the units closer to Nidaros (there are at least 2 vet spears, 1 reg spear in the city) instead of making an attempt to get it now; you may also bring in enforcements via the galley that just dropped the workers; what we need is a Leader

Demiurge (up next)
Furiey
Zwingli
tao (just played)

Furiey

Oct 19, 2004, 04:27 PM

Excellent that the Persian city is gone without us having to be at war with Greece!

I was really annoyed that I left that gap open!

Edit: - Of course I meant that Greek city!

Demiurge

Oct 19, 2004, 05:45 PM

Got it. Will play tomorrow.

Demiurge

Oct 21, 2004, 07:36 PM

Sorry about the delay but I was unable to play last night.

1500 ad (pre-turn)
India will give horses, furs, replaceable parts, 200 gold and 121 gpt for atomic theory. We only take horses, furs replaceable parts and 200 gold so they can help with the research.
Gift replaceable parts to the Greeks
Set research to steel at 100%, due in 6
Changing taxmen to scientists doesn't speed research so I leave them
Move some troops around to protect borders. Upgrade some canons to artillery

IBT: Persia asks to end our ROP deal. We agree.

1505 ad (turn 1)
Carthage builds cavalry > next
Pollution strikes Accipitridae
Utica builds cavalry > next
Clear pollution near Accipitridae
Canons and frigates bombard Nidaros leaving reg spear on top. Elite cav dies attacked reg spear in Nidaros not hurting spear at all. Elite knight defeats reg spear.
Move 3 hp elite knight out of territory to heal
Move some troops around to protect borders. Upgrade some canons to artillery

IBT: Persia and Greece have signed a MPP.

1510 ad (turn 2)
Pollution strikes Theveste
Load up some reinforcements and send to Nidaros
Clear pollution near Theveste
Canons and frigates bombard Nidaros

1515 ad (turn 3)
Carthage and Utica build cavalry > next
Canons and frigates bombard Nidaros

IBT: Persians build Bactra on Viking island. Viking bowman attacks rifleman and kills him.

1520 ad (turn 4)
Pollution strikes Carthage
Unload 7 cavalry and 1 rifleman near Nidaros
Clear pollution

1525 ad (turn 5)
Pollution strikes Leptis Magna
Canons and frigates bombard Nidaros, pillage wheat near Nidaros
Clear pollution
Reduce science, steel in 1

IBT: Renew ROP with Babylon for 15 gold

1530 ad (turn 6)
We learn steel > refining at 100% in 7. Change taxmen to scientists, refining due in 6
Bombard Nidaros with canons and frigates. Move healed elite knight back toward Nidaros
Sell steel to India for 85 gold
Sell steel to Greeks for 91 gold

1535 ad (turn 7)
Carthage and Utica build cavalry > next
Canons and frigates bombard Nidaros
Unload four more cavalry near Nidaros

1540 ad (turn 8)
Pollution strikes Theveste
Canons and frigates bombard Nidaros. Elite knight defeats reg spear in Nidaros. Elite knight moves out to heal.
Upgrade knights and rifleman on home island

IBT: Persians and Greeks have signed a MA against the Vikings. Greeks declare on the Vikings

1545 ad (turn 9)
Carthage and Utica build cavalry > next
Canons and frigates bombard Nidaros
Now at -21 gpt, set Utica and Carthage to wealth, +9 gpt

IBT: Vikings take Persian city of Bactra

1550 ad (turn 10)
Pollution strikes Carthage and Accipitridae
Clear pollution
Canons and frigates bombard Nidaros

Post-turn: Well, no civ learned refining ahead of us so we were forced to research it ourselves. We are now only maintaining max research by building wealth in all of our cities. There is some gold out there now though if the next player wants to trade.

I took it slow against the Vikings letting our elite heal before attacking each time in hopes of getting a leader. There are currently about 4(?) spear and an archer in Nidaros.

Playing order
Furiey (next)
Zwingli
tao
Demiurge (just played)

tao

Oct 22, 2004, 01:23 AM

Arggh: there is once again an open coastal tile next to our wool colonies: block it immediately!

I would ship some artillery to the Vikings as they greatly help to soften defense.

Furiey

Oct 22, 2004, 01:49 AM

OK got it, I'll probably play later today when I get back from work - I've stuck an Arty in the gap to block it so I don't forget.

Furiey

Oct 22, 2004, 07:13 PM

1550 AD (Turn 0): Block gap with Artillery; load Artillery in Galleon off our coast and head for the Vikings; 320gpt is available from India for Electronics, but nothing from Greece, our deals with both expire in 2 turns so decide to wait until then. Press button.

IBT: Persians bombard improvements round Nidaros; pollution strikes Leptis Magna.

1555 AD (Turn 1): Babylon deal has expired, sell them Atomic Theory for 37gpt and Maps; clean pollution; destroy Bactra (thought there was more in it than that); pick at the Spearmen; but don’t get one weakened enough to use the Elite Hoplite in attack – Cavs kill the spears too easily and we have no Elite Cavs, or we didn’t, one has just promoted (4/5), just the lone redlined Knight; unload Arty by Nidaros.

IBT: Keltoi and Persia sign a MPP; Greece demands electronics – I was going to use that in the coming round of trades – although I’m sure we can defend against them, we will lose several luxuries at a time when we are trying to finish the game – I pay up. :( ; Greeks drop Cavalry by Nidaros; lots of pollution strikes.

1560 AD (Turn 2): Complete Refining and start Combustion (in 6 once the pollution is cleared); we have oil by Theveste; bombard Nidaros; Greeks are going to destroy it next turn, so try the Elite Hoplite on a spear redlined by our bombarding – no good, the Hoplite dies; 4/5 Elite Cav (now 3/5) destroys Nidaros and the Pyramids; block Greek Cavalry from reaching last Viking city; move couple of Cavs to last Viking city – there’s a redlined Greek Cav already there - 3/5 Elite Cav also moves in; look at trades – Greece has traded Electronics around; Sell Spices, Wool, Ivory, Refining to India for 121 gpt, gold and maps (don’t want to clear them out and stop research); renegotiate the Greek luxury deals and throw in refining for 84gpt; get another 10gpt off Babylon for it, Xerxes has nothing to give;

IBT: Greeks bombard final Viking city and retreat their redlined Cavalry.

1565 AD (Turn 3): Pollution strikes Utica and is cleared; attack final Viking city - Elite 3/5 cav attacks 3/3 spear and wins; other Cavs fortify; unload Viking Workers back home.

IBT: Persians and Greeks bombard Vikings.

1570 AD (Turn 4): bombard the Vikings with Arty and our Elite Cav attacks, killing what turns out to be the only spearman defending – the Vikings are no more.

IBT: Greek ROP expires, they want radio to extend it.

1575 AD (Turn 5): Move Cannon and more Viking Workers back home.

IBT: Silk deal with Keltoi expires, throw in Communism to renew it; Keltoi Settler goes N into old Viking territory; Indian Settler goes S into our territory from their northern city.

1580 AD (Turn 6): block Indian Settler with Workers; otherwise Zzzzzz

IBT: 2 more Keltoi Settlers and an Indian one appear/land in ex Viking territory, Keltoi build 2 cities; Indian Settler in our territory returns to Jaipur.

1585 AD (Turn 7): Galleons return home and upgrade Cannon; move troops out of now Keltoi territory.

IBT: Indians Settle in ex Viking Territory; pollution strikes Leptis Magna;

1590 AD (Turn 8): Research Combustion, start Mass Production; clear pollution; upgrade Galleons to Transports.

IBT: Zzzzz.

1595 AD (Turn 9): ship back Arty in the last Galleon.

IBT: We lose our Furs and Horses; pollution strikes Accipitridae.

1600 AD (Turn 10): Clear pollution; unload Artillery; Transports reach Keltoi continent.

Treasury: 5757 gold, +127 gpt, Combustion in 4 (100%)

Post Turn: I have not renewed the deal for Furs and Horses (though I don’t suppose we need the Horses anymore anyway). From the Indians we could get Furs for 12 gpt, or from the Persians we could get Furs for Wool and 6 gpt. I leave this for the next player though as we are now Combustion and Radio ahead of the Greeks and Indians. No leader unfortunately, but who is going to provide the opportunity next? Babylon and Persia are the only Civs we’re not trading luxuries with, although we do have gpt deals with Babylon and could get Furs from Persia. Persia also has MPPs with Greece and Keltoi….

Accipitidae Culture: 128 per turn
Civ Assist 20k Prediction: 1745 (29 turns) and it looks like that's where it will stay.

Zwingli (up next)
tao
Demiurge
Furiey (just played)

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/tao_SG004_AD1600_01.SAV)

tao

Oct 22, 2004, 07:27 PM

We should keep our happiness as high as possible to increase score, i.e. get all available luxuries and (if possible and useful) spend some lux tax.

IMHO we should irrigate more mines and join more workers.

Note that we have 14 turns till drop dead date of completing SETI. And we need mass production (4), flight (7), computers (12?). Not a good perspective. IMHO if the AIs did not do flight by the time we learn mp, we can abandon all hope and increase pop and lux instead of going on with research.

Furiey

Oct 22, 2004, 07:34 PM

Those were just my thoughts. At the moment we are running 100% research to have any chance of finishing earlier. At 720 beakers per turn (100%) we can complete computers in 10 turns. It's still tight. The Fur deal needs renewing now. Once we know we can't make a difference we might as well drop research and go lux for max happy population.

edit: Combustion - ah yes - should have done that! :blush:

edit/add: we need 800 beakers per turn to get Flight down to 6 and and Computers down to 9. That's 80 more - we'd need more than a few scientists to do that!

tao

Oct 22, 2004, 07:36 PM

I looked at the save and realized you did not trade/donate combustion to the AIs. Bad. Now it is highly unlikely they research flight for us :(.

Maybe joining workers and building scientists helps reducing research by another turn?

Zwingli

Oct 22, 2004, 11:32 PM

Got it....

Furiey

Oct 23, 2004, 03:10 AM

We need 80 more beakers per turn to get the techs a turn earlier - that's 80 more scientists. (wish they got the research multiplier from the buildings)

We have 6 who are currently taxmen
If we irrigate we can get:
10 in Utica
1 in Theveste
9 in Cathage
6 in Accipitridae
Leptis Magna is already irrigated

Total 32

That's without starving. All the cities have food in the storage boxes, so could go long enough to get the next tech without starving with an extra 1 or 2 population. but that still leaves us only half way to what we need.

Combustion will get us the Furs from India, Greece will offer loads of gpt for it, how much we take...

Just noticed Hyperbad has expanded in our S.

Zwingli

Oct 24, 2004, 12:42 AM

Not much happened during these turns, and since the Colossus will soon expire, I don't think we have a chance of researching the required techs in time. Nonetheless, I have kept up research while still increasing population. Not much left to do but finish the game :)

1600 AD (0)
Irrigate most of the tiles in our territory

1605 AD (1)
Join a few Roman and German workers to the cities and irrigate the rest of the tiles. In the following turns I just fortify the units and clean up any pollution.

1625 AD (5)
We learn Mass Production and start Motorized Transport. Joining a final batch of workers causes the time for MT to go down from 6 to 5 turns.

1650 AD (10)
We learn Motorized Transport and start Flight due in 7 turns.

tao (next)
Demiurge
Furiey
Zwingli (just played)

tao

Oct 24, 2004, 02:35 AM

Yes, we don't have a reasonable chance to get another turn off the finishing date and therefore lets spend money for our score, i.e. happiness.

Pre-turn: move garrison into LM to deter any AI ideas on attacking the undefended city; order some destroyers and tanks, since we have money to burn; start calling some troops back from former Viking lands for upgrading; set 20% lux

1655: pollution hits us

1660: more pollution clearing; renew deals:
Greece gives incense, dyes, gems, 175g, 22gpt, wm for spices and wool; then we donate them ivory
India gives 191g, 40gpt, wm for spices, wool, ivory

1675: Greece and India know flight; India sells us flight, wm for coal
Keltoi give silks, wm, 4g for electricity; donate them , ROP; donate them wool
sell flight to Babylon for 48gpt, 54g, wm
because of the very very small -- but existing -- chance that greece and Persia will not get rocketry, I decide to bring them in the Modern Age:
Persia gives 24gpt, 252g, wm for flight
Greece gives 132gpt, 120g, wm for mt; we donate radio and they learn rocketry :(
we donate radio and mt to Persia, and they learn rocketry :(
there goes all hope to accelerate our 20k date; start research on computer

grateful people add another peace to our Palace

1700: our furs and horse (which we don't need) deals end; renew furs for 12gpt
pesky Persians know amphibious war; strengthen LM defense

post-turn: Leptis Magna is on fighters; useful as sentry in case Xerxes misbehaves; Utica is on destroyers, Theveste and Carthage IMHO should build bombers, because lethal air bombardment is on in this game

20k date still 1745AD, Firaxis 806, Jason 1067

Demiurge (to finish)
Furiey
Zwingli
tao (just played)

Demiurge

Oct 24, 2004, 03:43 AM

Not much to do as stated so I didn't really keep a turn log per say.
And exactly as predicted. Victory in 1745 ad.

Firaxis score: 2048
Jason score: 5042

Turn before victory (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Hannabaline,_1740_AD.SAV)

That was a lot of fun. Thanks everyone. :goodjob:

Furiey

Oct 24, 2004, 03:45 AM

Thoroughly enjoyed this - my first 5CC and 20k. Glad I didn't miss the end - I'm on holiday next week for 3 weeks! I'll have to see how all the other teams did when I get back.

tao

Oct 24, 2004, 03:47 AM

That was a lot of fun. Thanks everyone. :goodjob:Yes, I completely agree. We have beaten team Bede and I hope no other 20k team will beat our date.

I will post a draft final spoiler soon.

tao

Oct 24, 2004, 03:49 AM

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sgotm4_team_tao_20k.gif

Jason score: 5042, Firaxis score: 2048

To give a complete picture, I compiled all builds of our culture city in one table, together with other meaningful data.

The key in a 20k game is to push production in the city as fast as possible (i.e. joining workers) instead of the usual rapid expansion in the early game phase. And soon you start trying to get as much Great Leaders as possible to hurry Wonders (and other builds, if you have Leaders to spare).

As you see in the above table, team tao did - despite permanent wars - not get an abundance of Leaders. Hamilcar was used 390BC to build an army and enable Heroic Epic, hoping to increase Leader appearence. Alas: it did not happen.

We missed Pyramids, Oracle, and Great Wall in the Ancient Ages, but the 4 cpt from Heroic Epic were good and doubled in 890AD to 8cpt.

For lack of Leaders in the Middle Ages, we manually build Sun Tzu's in Carthage to break the AI builds.

We managed to have enough cash ready allowing to hurry (after disbanding a unit) all hurryable improvements in one turn.

A key aspect was Zwingli pushing us to going for Shakespeare's asap, collecting Sistine and Copernicus' on the way.

A sad aspect was missing Smith's, but we just did not get a Leader. We sent an overseas raiding party razing the Greek city working on it, but Babylon succeeded.

In the early industrial times, we acquired some AI cities to enable the Forbidden Palace; afterwards we also moved the palace to the 20k city.

After we collected the other cultural buildings, we tried to speed our finishing date one more turn by getting SETI and research lab, but the AI did not help us enough with research.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sgotm4_team_tao_finalmap.jpg

As you see in the final map, we moved Leptis Magna southwest to the coast (1080AD) to allow for a much greater population than in the initial position, which was chosen for defence (on a hill) and early production (2 sheep tiles).

1370AD we finally destroyed Rome to get rid of war weariness after using them for Leader farming for a long time (with limited success). Between 1485AD and 1570AD we used our idling troops to kill the Vikings, again hoping for a Leader which did not appear.

Towards the end, we joined the workers from the "expired" civs to our cities and converted all mines to irrigation, since production was not an issue in the endgame. To increase score (slightly), we also gave lux instead of research in the end.

It was a great game, a great team, and a great facilitator. Thanks a lot to everybody. :goodjob: