Looking good Zamint!! :goodjob: That was fast too. ;)

EDIT - @Zamint-What I meant to say was that Cumae wouldn't be able to use the cattle squares if we took Rome away from them as they haven't yet managed a cultural expansion.

Initial thoughts are that we are going to have a lot of little skirmish wars this game. We should get Rome out of the picture as soon as we can and not allow X-Man to get established, nor anyone else, on our continent. The AI amphibious warfare ability is lacking so we should be able to hold this continent, I hope. In fighting the small number of AI units coming over on Galleys, we may also be able to generate some leaders for wonder building. The problem with that will be trading for things, but we won't have to worry about that for a while.

Once we get Currency, we should be headed into the Middle Ages, with lots of lucious cultural wonders. Colosseum should be a good build, a little pricey, but certainly a pre-build should start soon and our research objective should be towards Theology and Sistine's Chapel.

Has anyone seen any horses around? It would be nice to have some speed for patrolling the continent against vagrants. :D

No horses on our continent.

We'd better take out Neapolis in case it expands and wipes our colony.

We'd better take out Neapolis in case it expands and wipes our colony.
I agree. Looks like jungle between Neapolis and Rome, the cats are going to have to move around the west side of that lake to get to Rome. Looking at the mini-map, I also see that Rome has grown to 6 cities again. Busy building settlers is a good thing though, less Legions.

You need to go for Rome from the west anyway, as there's a river to its north and east.

You're correct, I was just thinking of trying to save turns by going after Neapolis with Archers only and running the cats west along the road. It saves a couple of turns in cat movement, getting them to Rome sooner so the Archers don't have to sit around as targets. Although, it would be nice to draw a Legion, if it exists, out of Rome with an Archer decoy north of Rome, if Caesar will bite. :mischief:

Looks like we have enough archers and cats in motion to grab Rome in the next turnset. Definately come in from the West and we want to keep Rome as our 5th city, abandon Theveste. Hopefully we'll get a few slaves and can get them roading the western shoreline of the lake.

Do you think we can keep the other civs at war with each other to slow their tech pace and allow us to build some Wonders.

EDIT: Rome is at size 4.

In case you have not checked out Ainwood's new CivAssist, it has a 20K monitor.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam04_04.jpg

Rome must have produced two settlers, as it was at pop 7 last time I saw it. Excellent!

I think cats suffer the same defensive bonus attacking across a river as anything else, so if we're gouing to Rome with cats they should probably attack from the west as well.

You're right, Alan. River bonus to defense applies to arties, but we need to put the cats in the stack anyway so all units should approach Rome from the west. I think we should take out Neapolis on the way, however ;)

You're right, Alan. River bonus to defense applies to arties, but we need to put the cats in the stack anyway so all units should approach Rome from the west. I think we should take out Neapolis on the way, however ;)
I agree on taking Neapolis out. However, there are only jungle tiles between Neapolis and Rome. The cats can't enter unroaded jungle, can they? There are also Archers that are west of Rome now. The cats can join those archers while the ones near Neapolis can take it out, then proceed through the jungles to Rome and set up so they don't attack across the river. They should all get there close to the same time. :D

Sounds like a good plan to hit both cities.

I'll probably play later tonight.

Rome is the prime target, and we should focus our troops there. If there are legions defending anywhere they'll be there, specially with the Pyramids to protect. Neapolis can be dealt with later if splitting our forces would risk failing to take Rome.

Neapolis won't expand for a while, and even if it did it's only a few turns at higher lux level and then another worker to recover the colony. I was just emphasising we remember to take it out.

I could investigate Rome (54 gold) in the pre-turn to see how many Legions are there. He may have only built one but he could have upgraded his warriors. Then make a desicion from there about hitting only Rome or hitting both cities. I agree that Neapolis (21 gold) can wait but since the troops are already positioned it would protect our supply line if we are sending unescorted cats down that road.

I think investigating Rome would be wise. We need to be absolutely sure that we don't leave a redlined elite leg there ;)

We have sufficient gold to investigate both. I think checking them will tell you how best to proceed. :goodjob: If we know we can manage to take Neapolis on the way to Rome, it will be quicker. But, we have 18 turns to Republic, so there is time.

Checked CivAssist and no changes in traits so far. However, both Persia and India have extra horses, for future reference. :rolleyes:

What about Sidon? :mischief:

I agree in trying to take Rome first, but it may be a tough thing to do. :)

If the investigation shows that it's impossible, and I'll leave that for you to decide Gator :mischief: , then I suggest we take Neapolis, and sue for peace asap, and wait for our combined arms army. :lol:


Originally Posted by leif erikson
What about Sidon? Nice question :) , Xerxes of course has both iron and horses and what that brings along. :lol:

Nice question :) , Xerxes of course has both iron and horses and what that brings along. :lol:
Our advantage is that he has them "over there". ;) That means that he has to transport them. :p which he won't do well. If we let him get established where we are, that means more grief down the road. :cry: The big disadvantage in this is that he is scientific and we want what he will have at change of age, which we should probably help him achieve if he doesn't beat us to it. :crazyeye: Then :hammer:

EDIT - But first, Rome needs to be captured and Caesar deposed. forever!
:lol: :lol: :lol:

OK, I'll check out the cities and go from there. I'll play this AM and post this afternoon.

This was the most nerve wracking 10 turns I have played in a while. I hate trying the Archer rush, and Rome forced me into attacking 2-3 turns before I was ready.

Bad News: We are not in control of Rome or iron

Good News: We are in the MA and I found 5 other civs, some of whom have extra iron & horse, so we may be trading for them later

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Preturn - 350BC
Investigate Rome
3 rSpears, 1rLegion, 1 settler / Sci @ 90% / 8spt / settler in 2 turns
Cumae is hooked up to iron also - so we could be looking at more than 1 legion

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam04_05.jpg


Investigate Neapolis
rSpear & rArcher, production box for worker is full but they have 4 turns for growth - no cultural buildings there

Think we need more archers - est 3-4 to take out the legion and 2-3 for each spear - would like to have about 15 archers plus we have 5 cats
decide to hold off on Neapolis until other cats arrive - move eArcher, 6 vArchers and cat to join the other 5 vArchers

rush Archer in Theveste (1 pop)
switch Carthage to Archer
switch Utica to Archer

set our sci to 0% and hire a scientist in Theveste, since we do not need growth there, net 5gpt now at +15gpt

IBT - ROM galley sails up by Theveste / saw a PER horseman / galley survived

Turn 1 - 330BC
Theveste archer => archer
galley still at sea - moved 4 W the 2 N to get to sea tiles - no land insight
send the new archer between Theveste and Utica (want to keep an eye on the ROM galley)

IBT - ROM archer appear NW of Neapolis / ROM galley continues Northward

Turn 2 - 310BC
Carthage archer => archer
with no land insight and being halfway across the fog I decide to head South
Rome to size 2

IBT - watch IND autoraze PER city of Tarus? / ROM archer moves back into Neapolis / ROM galley now by Utica

Turn 3 - 290BC
Utica archer => archer
galley survives - after 2 more S moves I see coastal tiles W SW SW into coast and finds the VIK
CONTACT: VIK, 5 cities 22 gold, no iron or horses, no luxes, down LIT
move 2 archers towards Ivory fields

IBT - ROM galley just off point of Ivory fields

Turn 4 - 270BC
Carthage archer => archer
Rome to size 3 / resettled Pompeii? (back up to 7 cities)
overseas galley meets the GRK
CONTACT: GRK, 9 cities, 148 gold, has iron & horses & incense, up POLY & CURR, down LIT
can trade LIT & 345gold for CURR - but decide to see if I can meet more civs first

IBT - ROM galley unloads a settler and a rLegion near Ivory fields

Turn 5 - 250BC
Theveste archer => cat
overseas galley meets GER
CONTACT: GER, 6 cities, 25 gold, iron & dyes, down LIT

Haven't finished moving all troops into position but with the settler up north I issue DOW on ROM

Ivory Fields
vArcher redlines rLegion who promos now a 2/4 vet - kick off ROM GA
vArcher vrs 2/4 vLegion - we redline but win - no promos capture the settler

Archer capture ROM worker on Wool north of Neapolis, also move in 2 more archers, a warrior and a cat
other stack of troops still waiting outside of ROM territory waiting for last archer and 4th cat

IBT - IND resettled area where the PER city was to claim the iron there / ROM warrior & settler NE out of Neapolis / ROM galley heading south

Turn 6 - 230BC
Carthage archer => warrior (in anticipation of having iron and upgrading to sword)
Utica archer => cat

decide to attack Neapolis instead of the settler pair - vArcher kills rSpear and we autoraze Neapolis & promo to elite
since we won with a single archer I attack the warrior/settler pair - we redline but win (2 more slaves)
last 2 stragglers are with the main group now - will move towards Rome next turn

IBT - GER asks our galley to leave - we agree / ROM galley S / ROM archer & spear out of Rome towards old Neapolis site

Turn 7 - 210BC
Carthage warrior => warrior
oversea galley spies another dark blue border (probably BAB - I'll know next turn)

TROUBLE: move 1 of our archers towards Rome - see a rLegion in the open (who may have come from Cumae based on location) and an archer/settler pair on the iron hill - that makes 4 units and a settler outside of Rome and there were 4 units in there originally, don't think I have enough units

Walk away from the game for awhile to think about what to do - decide that we need more units and some defense, our archers will get picked apart before they get a chance to attack - fortify the whole stack 2 tiles from the river (any advancing troops should have no movement left after crossing the river)

IBT - ROM archer and spear come up from the South and kill our archer, then 2 legions join them across the river

Turn 8 - 190BC
Leptis Magna colosseum => palace (as a prebuild for ??)
West of Rome - retreat whole stack of units - instead of taking on a vLegion, a rLegion, a 2/3 rArcher and a rSpear
East of Rome - rSpear & rArcher are SW S of our wool colony, followed by a rArcher and settler 1 tile W of that

oversea galley meets the BABs (and finds orange border - OTTO)
CONTACT: BAB, 5 cities, 7 gold, iron & horses, dyes & incense, up POLY, down LIT

IBT - PER & BAB both ask our galleys to leave - we agree / ROM 2 legions advance w/o archer & spear on West side / archer & spear advance near our colony on East side, while the archer&settler move to a jungle tile next to old Neapolis site

Turn 9 - 170BC
learn POLY from Great Library
Carthage archer => archer
Utica cat => cat
Theveste cat => archer

East side: take out rSpear & rArcher - cannot get to settler this turn - lose an Archer in the process
West side: 3 of 4 cat shots hit taking 2hp off the vLegion and 1hp off the rLegion - vArcher takes out the 2/3 rLegion / eArcher takes out the 2/4 vLegion / advance 7 archers forward to cover our 3/5 eArcher

move the 5 workers out of that area and pause a hoplite on the mountain N N NW of our wool colony
In a moment of stupidity I joined a roman slave to Letis Magna - thought it was a regular worker

oversea galley meets the OTTOs
CONTACT: OTTO, 6 cities, 7 gold, iron & horse, dyes & gems, up CURR, down LIT

IBT - ROM archer kills 1 of our archers and a vLegion and rSpears advance on the West side to cover their 1/3 rArcher, they are trailed by 2 spears / ROM settler founds another "Neapolis" on the East side (our wool colony is safe so far) / OTTO ask us to leave - we agree

Turn 10 - 150BC
we learn CURR from the Great Library & enter the MA and receive MONOTHEISM
Rome down from size 3 to size 2 again

bring the workers back to the west side - figure we could build a fortress
a vArcher takes out Neapolis we gain 23 gold

Notes to next player
1) We need more troops
2) Leptis build can be changed to either a barracks for troops or to a Cathedral since we just got MONO
3) We need more troops
4) I found everyone except the Kelts - I have not launched the other 2 galleys since the first one was making contacts
5) We need more troops
6) Rome is in a GA
7) We need even more troops because of #6
8) Rome will take peace straight up, but we might as well keep killing their settlers
9) Keep an eye on the Ivory field I moved an Archer out of there
10) We actually have a tech lead on everyone - the GRK & OTTO are showing as being down only LIT - so we must have all gotten MONO as the free tech
11) Checked out the traits on everyone with CivAssist – still listed the way I showed earlier
12) Score F321 J425

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam04_06.jpg

Well done Gator. :goodjob:
Looks like you brought some RNG-luck to the X-team. :D
I'll comment later, have to go to work! :eek:

Good job, Gator. :goodjob: Looks like it was a bit harrowing, but everything is in good shape. :D

Looks like you brought some RNG-luck to the X-team. :D

Yes, it is very nice to see all these civs up on the board. That makes The Great Library a great investment, besides for culture, of course. ;)

Looking at the save, I think we should change Leptis Magna to Cathedral as it should be a while before Theology shows up with Sistine's Chapel. With all the civs we know, do you think we can count on the AI getting us Theology through The Great Library? I would like to at least do a min research on Theology with a pre-build cranking at the same time.

Diplomatically, I think we should consider building some embassies and signing ROP agreement with everyone we can, except X-Man.

Militarily, I think we have to go after Rome real soon. They have only one effective offensive unit, a Vet Legion, in the stack. The Archer is 1/3 and then a Reg Spear, with 2 Reg. Spears trailing. Also, we can move a group of Archers from the east onto the Iron Hill in a couple of turns and pillage it, halting Legion production in their Golden Age. I'm not sure if we need the fortified Archer in Theveste, seems he can move south right away. The attempt, imho, should be made soon because, in their GA they're only going to get stronger the longer we wait. Perhaps we should halt cat production and switch to Archers as I think we have 7 cats now.

BTW - I've got it and will be listening for comments and advise. :)

This was the most nerve wracking 10 turns I have played in a while. I hate trying the Archer rush, and Rome forced me into attacking 2-3 turns before I was ready.

Bad News: We are not in control of Rome or iron

Good News: We are in the MA and I found 5 other civs, some of whom have extra iron & horse, so we may be trading for them later
Well done Gator. Great exploring, with one too many civs on the screen now :D (Rome will have to go - I like to have eight in F4 to save all that shift-right-click nonsense).

Notes to next player
1) We need more troops
3) We need more troops
5) We need more troops
7) We need even more troops because of #6

Good start to the Rome campaign, but I can see don't like playing the archer rush! You have to treat archers as expendable in this kind of situation. We won't use them again after Rome is taken as Swords will be our next offensive unit, and it's not worth holding on to them for LB upgrades. We have enough troops, in my view, to take out Rome - the city - now. We are obviously considerably stronger than him, as he would almost give us three cities for peace. But he'll out-produce us in his GA, so we'll lose the initiative if we wait.

I agree we need to build a Cathedral in Leptis. It'll never build (m)any military units, so a barracks there is a waste of shields and maintenance.

I don't think the offensive punch of Rome will be much to fret. They're only ordinary swordies on offense. However, taking Rome, on a hill, guarded by 3-def legs with only archers? :eek: and quite possibly :cry:

Well done, Gator :goodjob:
Good luck, leif :thumbsup:

I don't think the offensive punch of Rome will be much to fret. They're only ordinary swordies on offense. However, taking Rome, on a hill, guarded by 3-def legs with only archers? :eek: and quite possibly :cry:

1. Rome is on grassland.

2. My guess? One, maybe 2 regular legions in Rome, then spears.

3. Ignore the spears north of Rome. Just walk on by. They won't attack unless we leave a redlined unit in range, and we can clean up later. The other stack needs to be taken out to prevent excessive damage, but it currently has only one regular legion, a spear and an archer and it's on grass.

PS We are Middle Aged. Shall I put together a spoiler, or would someone else like to do it?

I got concerned when I saw the possibility of 8+ units being in Rome when a had a stack of 12 archers. Also concerned that if I did capture it I would not be able to hold it and would have lost all the cats in the process. I have already killed 4 Legions and Rome has rushed a few other units (the pop in Rome has dropped from 3 to 2 twice). Don't forget we can pop rush archer in Theveste also, since we want to keep Rome.

In the last 2 turns I was hoping to create a battlefield where the AI was interested in sending troop to fight, so that we could come in from the other side. I also got most of that area roaded, I think both sides only need 1 tile roaded to have direct access to Rome.

BTW, I found that running troops thru Carthage and then Leptis appeared to be the quickest way to minimize the river crossings.

Just lost a major post. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Short story:
1) Go for Rome
2) Leptis Magna : Cathedral -> Marketplace (cashrush) -> Sistine
3) Sign MA's to slow down tech pace
4) Bring fresh water to Hippo and Utica (which also should build aqueduct)

The rest was brilliant details that you will never know. :cool:

EDIT : Alan, please do the write-up. :thanx:

zamint3
DJMGator13 - Just played
leif erikson UP
Capt Buttkick - On deck
AlanH

Good luck leif.

Just lost a major post. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Short story:
1) Go for Rome
2) Leptis Magna : Cathedral -> Marketplace (cashrush) -> Sistine
3) Sign MA's to slow down tech pace
4) Bring fresh water to Hippo and Utica (which also should build aqueduct)

The rest was brilliant details that you will never know. :cool:

EDIT : Alan, please do the write-up. :thanx:
I miss your brilliance, Herr Feld Marshal!! :crazyeye:

On #3, do you mean get everyone in MA against Rome? Including Persia or??

On #4, I assume you mean after we have defeated Rome, completely, and kicked X-Man off the continent, or should we leave X-Man alone? I assume we are going to continue the Archer rush until those tasks are accomplished. Although I will probably be lucky to take Rome and , perhaps, Cumae and another. Got to leave some fun for the Capt., although no promises. :rolleyes:

@Capt. - There are 5, iirc, cats in the stack to the northeast of Rome and a couple more on the way. We should have some fine Combined Arms for a while.

Is there an upper limit on cats that someone wants to reach? I can't see building too many more of them, just more maintenance to pay. Sorry Capt. :blush:

EDIT - I love your write-ups Alan, unless you're too busy with something else? Let me know. ;)

Good luck. Knocke em dead.

I was rotating between building archers and cats. There are 4 on the West (almost due North now) side and 1 on the East side and 2 more moving down that way. I put the hoplite on the mountain as defense in case Rome broke thru our lines. We're also up to 19 archers. It took me only 2 archers to kill the rLegion in the Ivory field the last time, but we will have plenty of warning before they land up there so the archer in Theveste can come south also. Hopefully Rome will keep putting resources into more settlers. Rome will also be unhappy from the whipping when we capture it.

EDIT: Please do the writeup Alan.

Rome will also be unhappy from the whipping when we capture it.

Starve Rome to pop 1 and then let it build again with good loyal Carthaginians. The city itself will remember the whipping for twenty turns or so, so we might as well use some of that time to increase its loyalty.

Sounds like I volunteered to do the write-up. I'll do it tonight so that we can all read about the other teams' exploits over the weekend.

I miss your brilliance, Herr Feld Marshal!! :crazyeye: Yes. Sorry those words of wisdom hit the bottom of teh bit busket :(

On #3, do you mean get everyone in MA against Rome? Including Persia or??I think the objctive should be to sign MAs against Persia when we go for them. There's no point in MAs against Rome, as no one will do anything about them.

On #4, I assume you mean after we have defeated Rome, completely, and kicked X-Man off the continent, or should we leave X-Man alone? I assume we are going to continue the Archer rush until those tasks are accomplished.Watering Hippo and Utica doesn't affect our troop builds. It's just a priority for worker tasking as I see it :hmm:

I miss your brilliance, Herr Feld Marshal!! :crazyeye: ..and you missed a lot. :lol: :lol:

On #3, do you mean get everyone in MA against Rome? Including Persia or??No, I mean we should start a war amongst the new civs that we met during Gators turns. Just make sure everybody is at war. Maybe gang up on the Greeks so they have a hard time during their GA.

Of course I expect you to continue the archer rush and build improvements in our "core" cities at the same time. :mischief: :lol:

As soon as our conflict with Rome is under control, we should wipe out Sidon, I mean : it is our continent . ;)

EDIT : Good luck leif, you may need it, or maybe we should just let Gator play another 10 turns. :D

EDIT : Good luck leif, you may need it, or maybe we should just let Gator play another 10 turns. :D
All I really need to know is Gator's RNG God ritual sacrifices and I could be GREAT too!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Watering Hippo and Utica doesn't affect our troop builds. It's just a priority for worker tasking as I see it :hmm:
In Zamint's post, he asked me to build aqueducts and I was trying to determine the priorities of Aqueducts versus Archers. Before I met you guys, I probably would have chosen Aqueducts, now, NO WAY, Archers all the way!! :mischief:

@Gator - Thanks for the additional info, it helps. :goodjob:

Thanks for the input, starting straight away. See you in a while... :coffee: :sleep:

Not many archers. We'll need warriors for upgrade as soon as we get that iron that Caesar has been keeping warm for us, and we can build two warriors for every archer.

We'll need warriors for upgrade as soon as we get that iron that Caesar has been keeping warm for us, and we can build two warriors for every archer.
OK, good point.

EDIT - << THE SAVE >> (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Xteam_SG004_AD0050_01.SAV)

Keeping with Gator's theme, we have the Good news and the Bad.
The Good is that we have Rome, safe and sound, after a little sweating for a while.
The Bad, X-Man has built another town on our continent, where Theveste used to be?!?!@#$%%$!

Now for the turn log:

Pre-Flight – Turn 120 – 150 BC
Change palace pre-build in Leptis Magna to Cathedral.
Change Catapult build in Utica to Archer.
Check the diplomatic situation and Persia and India are currently at war, good.
Establish embassy with Babylon for 52 Gold, they have 2 Horse and 1 Iron and have built Barracks, Granary, Temple and Colosseum in Babylon, currently building a Bowman.
Establish an embassy with the Ottomans for 61 Gold, they have 1 Iron and 2 Horses, have built Temple, Walls, Colosseum and the Great Wall, currently building Cathedral (14 turns).
Establish embassy with The Vikings for 48 Gold, they have no strategic resources and have built Barracks, Temple, Colosseum, Harbor and The Colossus, working on Galley.
German embassy would cost 87 Gold and I decide to wait hoping to save some gold for upgrades. Also, they are next to last in the score and are behind several techs, so we can get them later.
We declare war on Greece.
Visit the Ottomans. They require a minimum of 58 Gold to ally. I decide to give them Literature instead and get Right of Passage plus 7 Gold (all they had). They are now polite towards us.
Visit the Babylonians and get basically the same deal but receive 10 Gold (all they had).
Visit the Vikings and get the same deal, but we receive 31 Gold this time (all they had).
Summary, Greece is at war with us, Ottomans, Babylonians and Vikings.
Rome is at war with us.
Indians and Persians are at war with each other.
We have Rights of Way with India, Vikings, Babylonians and Ottomans. We have no agreements with the Persians, so we can attack at any time simply by declaring with no rep hit, as long as we don’t occupy their territory at the time of declaration.
Now, I’m exhausted and press enter.

IBT
Roman movements.
Legion moves north, towards us?
Spear and wounded Archer move SE towards Rome. Two Spears move NW towards us
Carthage Archer => Archer.

Turn 121 – 130 BC
Archers and Cat to the south.
Cat bombs 4/4 Legion – failed.
Cat bombs 4/4 Legion – takes 1 HP.
Cat bombs 3/4 Legion – takes 1 HP.
Cat bombs 2/4 Legion – take 1 HP.
Vet Archer attacks 1-4 Legion – Legion dies, no loss to Archer.
Move eastern archers toward Rome, find a Vet Warrior on the Iron Hill.
Move wounded eastern archers out of Roman territory for healing and guarding Wool Colony.
Begin irrigating tiles around Carthage to bring water to Hippo and Utica.
Move Galley to recon Roman territory, Antium has a Reg Spear in it and a Reg Archer north of it.

IBT
Lots of Roman movement, wounded Archer, Reg Legion and Reg Spear move onto Iron Hill, a Vet and a Reg Legion move next to our Archer stack, the 2 Reg. Spears move NW towards Sidon.
Utica Archer => Archer.

Turn 122 – 110 BC
Archers and Cats move south.
On the west side, Vet Archer attacks Vet Legion, dies relining the Legion.
Vet Archer attacks Reg. Legion, dies with no damage to Legion.
Vet Archer attacks Reg. Legion, kills him losing 1 HP.
Vet Archer attacks 1/4 Legion, kills him with no loss.
On the east, Elite Archer and Reg. Warrior west to join Archer stack, by-passing Iron Hill.

IBT
Reg. Legion attacks our Vet Archer in Jungle and dies, redlining the Archer.
Reg. Spear and wounded Archer move into Rome, Iron Hill is free of units.
2 Reg. Spears move south, away from Sidon?
A Persian Worker appears from Sidon.
Our recon Galley is sunk by a Barb Galley near Antium. :mad:
Carthage Archer => Archer.
Theveste Archer => Warrior.
Hippo Aqueduct => Barracks.

Turn 123 – 90 BC
Archers and Cat move south.
Archers move into attack positions around Rome, Cats are 1 turn behind. A Legion is showing in Rome. We take the Iron Hill with a Vet Archer, a redlined Archer and a Reg. Warrior.
Vet Archer attacks a Vet Warrior, getting too close to our colony and kills him, losing 2 HP.

IBT
The Romans request an audience. They want peace really badly. Will give us 293 Gold and a city or two. But, alas, I want Rome!! :hammer:
A Vet Legion attacks our Archer stack and kills our Elite Archer while losing 2 HP.
2 Reg. Spears move towards Iron Hill, Reg. Archer moves towards colony.

Turn 124 – 70 BC
Move 6 Cats and 2 more Archers into position to attack Rome, which is down to Pop 1. Fortify Archers in position already.
Vet Archer attacks Reg. Archer and defeats him losing 1 HP.
Complete road to Rome.

IBT
Archer attacks Archer stack and is wounded by a Cat but still kills one of our Archers, but redlines.
A Reg. Legion attacks our Reg. Warrior on the Iron Hill and dies, redlining the Warrior. :banana:
A Reg. Spear attacks our redlined Warrior and defeats him, losing 1 HP.
A Reg. Spear attacks our redlined Archer and defeats him, promotes to Vet
Carthage Archer => Warrior.
Utica Archer => Warrior
Theveste Warrior => Settler. .

Turn 125 – 50 BC
Archers move south.
There is a Reg. Legion in Rome. Cat bombs Rome – failed.
Cat bombs Rome – Takes 1 HP from Legion, now a Reg. Spear shows in Rome.
Cat bombs Reg. Spear – failed.
Cat bombs Reg. Spear – failed.
Cat bombs Reg. Spear – takes 1 HP, a fresh Reg. Spear shows.
Cat bombs Reg. Spear – takes 1 HP and a fresh Reg. Spear shows.
Vet Archer attacks Reg. Spear in Rome, redlined Archer fires defensive shot, misses, and Archer dies after inflicting 2 HP damage. A fresh Reg. Spear appears.
That is a minimum of 4 Reg. Spears and a Reg. Legion and we have 6 Vet Archers remaining. :hmm:
We have more Archers coming, so I decide to wait for reinforcements and I leave some bait for him.
We meet the Keltoi. They are way behind in tech, 4, and have only 5 gold.

IBT
The Keltoi declare war on the Vikings.
The Keltoi declare war on the Ottomans.
Vet Legion attacks out of Rome our Vet Archer and defeats him.
From Cumae, a Reg. Legion attacks our stack and defeats an Archer, losing 1 HP.
Carthage Warrior => Warrior.
Change Theveste and Utica to Archer. This fight is consuming a lot of troops??

Turn 126 – 30 BC
Move Archers around.
Attacking Rome.
Cat bombs Vet Legion – failed.
Cat bombs Vet Legion – Rome’s Barracks was destroyed. :goodjob:
Cat bombs Vet Legion – failed.
Cat bombs Vet Legion – failed.
Cat bombs Vet Legion – failed.
Cat bombs Vet Legion – failed. Where is Gator’s RNG??? :cry:
Change builds in Utica and Theveste to Archer.

IBT
Reg. Archer attacks our 2/4 Archer on Iron Hill and dies.
Vet Legion attacks 2/4 Archer on Hill and defeats him, losing 2 HP, but moving onto hill.
Several units move southwest out of Rome??
India asks for Right of Passage agreement and he wants Philosophy. I give him Literature for Right of Passage plus 25 Gold (all he had).
Carthage Warrior => Warrior.

Turn 127 – 10 BC
Archers move south.
Vet Archer attacks 2/3 Roman Spear near Wool colony and loses without inflicting any damage??
Cat bombs a Reg., 2/3 Legion near Cumae and redlines him.
Attacking Rome.
Cat bombs Reg. Legion – failed.
Cat bombs Reg. Legion – failed.
Cat bombs Reg. Legion – failed.
Cat bombs Reg. Legion – failed.
Cat bombs Reg. Legion – takes 1 HP, a Vet Spear shows.
Cat bombs Vet Spear – failed.
I'm sick of this, I'm attacking!!
Vet Archer attacks Vet Spear and kills him, redlining.
Vet Archer attacks Reg. Spear and kills him, redlining.
Vet Archer attacks Reg. Spear and kills him, redlining.
Vet Archer attacks Reg., 2/3 Legion and kills him, capturing Rome plus The Pyramids and 23 Gold, there is 1 resistor. We have Iron and I set production to Swordsman. Now if we can hold on to it, an Elite Archer and a Vet, 3/4 Archer enter Rome and fortify. Surrounding Rome are a Reg. Archer, a Vet, 2/4 Legion and a Vet Spear, all have to attack across the river.
Awaken 3 Warriors in Carthage and upgrade to Swordsman for 40 Gold each.
Awaken a Warrior in Theveste and upgrade to Swordsman.
Abandon Theveste, there is a Roman Galley beside where Theveste was.
Change build in Utica to Swordsman. Carthage remains Warrior.
Near Wool Colony, Vet Archer attacks Reg., 2/3 Spear and defeats him, losing 1 HP and promoting to Elite.
PHEWww!!
I’m afraid to press return, but I have to so, :eek:

My computer crashed while checking F4 and requires reboot! I replayed the turn from the autosave and it played out exactly the same, thanks to good notes. Because I am afraid to enter the advisor screens, I hire a scientist in Hippo to replace the one lost in Theveste and I save the game. :crazyeye:

IBT
Reg. Roman Archer attacks Rome and is defeated, redlining our Elite Archer.
Vet 2/4 Roman Legion attacks Rome and defeats our Vet 3-4 Archer, redlining.
Reg. Roman Legion from Cumae attacks our Archer and Cat stack outside of Rome and defeats an Archer, redlining.
Vet Spear attacks and is defeated, Archer promotes.
Rome moves an Archer next to Rome, a Vet Legion and a settler with a Reg Spear on the hills to the south.
The Persians drop off a settler with a Spear escort next to where Theveste was.
The Roman Galley disappears into the fog.
We discover Republic and change research to Theology at 0%. I do not start the revolt.
The resistance in Rome ends.
Leptis Magna Cathedral => Marketplace.
Hippo Barracks => Swordsman.

Turn 128 – 10 AD
Around Rome.
Cats move into Rome and start bombarding Reg Archer to the south.
Cat bombs Archer – failed.
Cat bombs Archer – takes 1 HP.
Cat bombs Archer – takes 1 HP.
Cat fortifies.
Cat fortifies.
Vet 3-4 Archer attacks redlined Roman Legion on Iron Hill and dies, Legion promotes. Dumb move?? :blush:
Change Lux Tax to 30% because of movement of Swords out of Carthage, a Spartan Hoplite will be there next turn.
The Babylonians will trade us Monarchy for Republic plus 50 Gold, I don’t think so.

IBT
Elite Legion attacks Rome from Iron Hill and defeats a Vet Archer.
Redlined Reg. Legion attacks Vet Archer outside Rome and defeats him, promoting to Vet, 2/4.
Roman settler and Reg. Spear move east.
A Vet Legion moves up to threaten Rome.
Carthage Sword => Sword.
Utica Sword => Sword.
Babylon is building The Hanging Gardens.
Persia founds the town of Tarsus next to the old Theveste site.

Turn 129 – 30 AD
North of Rome, an Elite 4/5 Archer attacks a redlined Elite Legion on the Iron Hill and defeats him losing 2 HP.
West of Rome, A Cat bombs a Vet, 2/4 Legion and fails.
Same Legion is attacked by a Vet Archer and the Archer is defeated and the Legion promotes.
Same Legion is attacked by a Vet Archer and the Legion dies while the Archer loses 1 HP.
From Rome Cats bombard a Vet Legion.
Cat – fails.
Cat – takes 1 HP.
Cat – fails.
Cat – takes 1 HP.
Cat – takes 1 HP.
Reduce Lux Tax to 20%.
Change Sword build in Rome to Barracks.

IBT
X-Man comes to visit and demands we get out of his territory. To protect our rep, I agree, although I want to attack. However, Rome is too much of a problem still.
The Romans move away from Rome, for now.

Turn 130 – 50 AD
Move troops south, leaving a Sword near Tarsus for the moment.
Upgrade a Reg. Warrior to Sword in Carthage.
Awaken Elite Archer in Rome and move east to intercept Roman Settler and Spear.

After Action Report.
Finally, despite a game crash and a long time of prayer to the RNG God, we have taken Rome. I’d forgotten the length of time Archer rushes can take, especially trying to shoot and move with Cats. When they shoot, they don’t move. You can have Combined Arms Capt., I’ll take horses any day!!

Leptis Magna completed a Cathedral and is now building a Marketplace. We are researching Theology with a scientist in Hippo. Hippo, Utica and Carthage are all building Swords. Rome is building a Barracks.

We have Republic but I did not start the revolt yet because things are very tenuous on the map. Now Persia has 2 colonies on our continent, however, they appear to be losing to India. Imho, we should use Swords to clean up Persia before we finish off Rome.

Diplomatically, we are at war with Rome and Greece. Greece is at war with Babylon, The Ottomans and The Vikings. Persia, again, is at war with India. I don’t know the keystrke to switch a portrait in vanilla in the Foreign Advisor Screen, but the Keltoi are at war with The Vikings and Germany, iirc.

I lost a lot of Archers but we now have 7 Swords. I also lost a Galley to a Barb and to sinking in the ocean, again, no RNG God for me. Our Firaxis score is 344.

Good luck Capt., there is still plenty of fighting for you to do. I saved you some Cats, hope you enjoy them. :rockon:

BTW - That is one funky Avatar Alan!!

The Good is that we have Rome, safe and sound That is very good news. :goodjob:

..after a little sweating for a while. You must have been, I mean, I was sweating reading the turnlog. :D

Vet Archer attacks Vet Spear and kills him, redlining.
Vet Archer attacks Reg. Spear and kills him, redlining.
Vet Archer attacks Reg. Spear and kills him, redlining.
Vet Archer attacks Reg., 2/3 Legion and kills him, capturing Rome OK, I'll never complain about the RNG-gods any more. :mischief:

Very :goodjob: leif :thumbsup:

:lol: Yup, I don't think we, overall can complain about the RNG luck during that turnset. The cats where quite a way off expected performance, but the archer luck more than made up for that.
I'm starting to think combined arms is not such a smart move on these (dear I say) easy difficulty levels. At least early on, combined arms is best used when you face overwhelming op's, to reduce rate of attrition. I must say I'm disappointed in Caesar. I'd have thought he'd be giving us more trouble :D

I'd really love to look into this now and see if I think we should go Spartans/cats or just swords for our attacks on X-man.
However, I have to work all day today and all day tomorrow so I can't possibly find time for playing. I'll have to ask for a skip. :(
If I can get back after Alan's turns, I'll let you know. Otherwise skip me completely til I'm up next time.

While we're on the issue of my absence: I'll be gone on vacation 23rd-31st Oct.

zamint3 - On deck
DJMGator13
leif erikson - Just played .... and how! :goodjob:
Capt Buttkick - skipped
AlanH UP

That was a terrific read, leif. Well done! The Persian cities are not a problem, they'll be lightly defended compared to Rome, and Immortals are not good at defending. We are twice Persia's culture, so their new one might even flip, only to be abandoned!

Now the Captain can show us how to use combined arms. As leif says, give me horses any day .... 'cept :hmm: we don't have any :cry:

Oops! X-Posted with Capt. OK I've amended the roster to show the skip.

OK, I'll never complain about the RNG-gods any more.
Yes, I have to give it a rest after that streak. ;) What you don't know is that I sacrificed the family dog to get that streak... :lol: :lol: :lol:

But when the game crashed after we finally got Rome, I thought my goose was cooked. :eek: :mad: The RNG God had returned to ruin the victory. But I replayed it in exactly the same sequence and exactly the same things happened again, like instant replay of a football game. But pressing enter after taking Rome required a few moments of prayer. ;)

Sorry you have to work Capt., I need a lesson in Combined Arms!! :D

Good luck Alan, I'm happy to turn this over for once... :thumbsup: :beer:

Yes, I have to give it a rest after that streak. ;) What you don't know is that I sacrificed the family dog to get that streak... :lol: :lol: :lol:
...
But pressing enter after taking Rome required a few moments of prayer.
You seem like a very devout follower of RNGinity :lol:

You seem like a very devout follower of RNGinity :lol:
That turn set made me a believer. :) I'm afraid I must admit that it was with much trepidation that I pressed enter after taking Rome, for the second time. Thank someone for programming a preserve random seed into the system because I'm not sure I would ever get a streak like that again. And it was borne of frustration with those Cats. After all the time to bring them up, protect them and get them into position, then have them perform so poorly. :wallbash: I would not have risked it if I hadn't seen the 2 units leave Rome on the previous IBT. All I can say is that it would not have been a happy place here had I failed to take Rome after the crash. [pissed]

But, then again, I suppose we have to be due once in a while. Isn't that why they call it a Random Number? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Some quick thoughts :

Now the military situation is under control I think we should:
1) Revolt asap.
2) Reduce unit cost, join our native workers to our cities and maybe disband a few archers.
3) Grow our cities.
4) Cashrush the marketplace in Leptis Magna and start prebuilding for Sistine, I don't know if it's worth poprushing anything before we revolt.
5) Go leaderfarming, this means : don't wipe out Rome, maybe leave Caesar with one city.
6) Xerxes is furious, I don't know why, so he should be dealt with soon. :cool:


...and we should start discussing when we want our Golden Age.

6) Xerxes is furious, I don't know why, so he should be dealt with soon. :cool:
I think he is furious because he had to ask us to leave his territory. There were 2 fortified Swords next to Tarsus I had intended to attack with, but then thought better of it. Alan does have a good point that with Leptis and Carthage so close, Tarsus may flip on its own accord.

Sidon has grown to size 2 and a worker is busy improving the place. May want to check and see if it needs any attention. :rolleyes:

A question, I know there is a penalty for an early cash rush. How long should one wait before cash rushing to make it cost effective? Is it done by percentage of shields completed?

We can easily reduce the number of Archers by attacking Roman cities during the anarchy period. :mischief: We should probably keep a Scientist and a couple of Tax Collector at work during Anarchy?

Again, good luck Alan. :cool: There is a lot to do!! :crazyeye:

A question, I know there is a penalty for an early cash rush. How long should one wait before cash rushing to make it cost effective? Is it done by percentage of shields completed?I've never heard of this, the only rushing penalty I know of is that your city will be more unhappy for 20 turns if you rush something in despotism. :confused:

The only cashrush penalty I know of is double cost if the production box is empty. If you really need something in a hurry (walls in a newly-captured city for example), disband something in the city (usually hurt and/or obsolete units), then cashrush.

Good luck Alan, I'm happy to turn this over for once..Thanks, leif. I think I'm going to need it :eek: I'm not good with cats, more of a dog person, really. Oops! Didn't mean to trespass on your private grief :D

But pressing enter after taking Rome required a few moments of prayer.
In that situation you can save teh game at the point before you press enter. Then if it goes up in smoke again you can reload at that point. If not, all you've lost is a few seconds to save it and a few KBytes of disk space until you delete it.

I've got it, and I'll prolly play today. Might have a crack at the spoiler first, though. Apart from delaying the dread moment when I hit next turn, it'll help me get the big picture ... maybe.

To misquote Monty Python's Life of Brian: "So, apart from burial, bronze, pottery, maps, archery practice, several cities and Rome itself, what are the Romans going to do for us next?"

Do we just keep Rome for its iron?. It's going to be rather corrupt if we leave it as it is. CivAssist says it's over 50% corrupt. As we only have 5 cities, having one running at 50% corruption is a waste of 10% of our total potential productivity.

I guess not too many 5CC games have the opportunity to build the FP and jump the palace, so do we know if there are any precedents? Just thinking aloud, we *could* move Hippo to a point somewhere between Rome and Leptis and use a leader (if one of our illustrious friends-of-the RNG can arrange it) to build a new palace there. It would increase the corruption in Utica somewhat, but New Hippo would have zero curruption and Rome would be much more efficient. Now that we have the Pyramids, New Hippo would grow fast, and it could be on the river north of Sidon, or on the lake north of Rome, to remove the need for an Aqueduct, and to link up our cultural boundaries from Rome to Carthage/Utica. Of course, a leader may come at a time when we want to use her for wonder-building in Leptis, so the option may not arise. Any thoughts?

Very good turns.

Good luck Alan on the next turnset.

Is there any problem with the Roman worker I joined to Leptis?

Leptis has 8% rush unhappiness and 8% WW "Stop the aggression against our mother country" from your Roman. But that's not a problem. Leptis, with its MPs, cathedral, temple and colloseum could live with 10% lux tax, and when its market is complete it would probably run at zero now (though not in Republic). But Carthage has MPs but no happiness buildings and needs 20%.

With only three luxuries, a market in Carthage would allow us to reduce our lux tax rate to 10%. It would cost us 1gpt in maintenance, but it would give us 50% more revenue in Carthage and a lux tax reduction of 4gpt overall. A cash-rushed market is higher priority in Carthage than in Leptis IMHO. Left to itself, Leptis will complete it in 4 turns unaided. Cash rushing is also very inefficient, as you lose all teh chields from one turn. We may be able to short-rush to reduce this effect and save some gold.

BTW Looking at the save, if we revolt now it's likely that Leptis will starve. It only has 2 food in the box, so any specialist we have to recruit to avoid riots will eat that and then we'll start losing citizens. Carthage is also at risk with only 9 food in the bin. We can make up the lost pop by joining native workers, of course, but we only have 4 of them.

Just looked at short rush options for a market in Carthage. We could rush a courthouse for 256 gold to get to 80 shields then revert to marketplace with 20 shields to go. At 16 spt Carthage would then complete in 2 turns, wasting 12 shields. Alternatively we could let it build one unaided, taking 6 turns. Saving 4 turns at a cost of 256 gold sounds like a bad deal to me. A market in Carthage is not worth 64 gpt, even in Republic. An even stronger argument applies to rushing a market in Leptis, where we can only shave a couple of turns off its completion date at a short rush cost of 164 gold.

All in all, I think I'm going to wait a few turns before revolting, complete markets in Leptis and Carthage, and build a bit of food up in Leptis and Carthage to reduce the impact of the revolution on population so that workers can join Rome rather than recovering starvation in Leptis and Carthage.

Let me know if you think I've missed a point somewhere.

Sounds good, if Leptis starved wouldn't it pull the Roman citizen out since it was the last one added?

The only reason I wanna cashrush the market in Leptis is, that I've been playing to much C3C (going for 20 k in Cotm 5 ;) ), and there you should cashrush anything that's not a wonder, to let the city prebuild for wonders as many turns as possible. But we can rely on leaders to rush our wonders, just leave it to Gator and leif to play with the RNG. :lol:

Good luck Alan.

Sounds good, if Leptis starved wouldn't it pull the Roman citizen out since it was the last one added?
It's my impression that native citizens starve first, but I can't remember where I read it. It seems likely, as otherwise you'd be able to kill off foreigners very quickly in a captured city without starving it right down.

I guess not too many 5CC games have the opportunity to build the FP and jump the palace, so do we know if there are any precedents? Just thinking aloud, we *could* move Hippo to a point somewhere between Rome and Leptis and use a leader (if one of our illustrious friends-of-the RNG can arrange it) to build a new palace there. It would increase the corruption in Utica somewhat, but New Hippo would have zero curruption and Rome would be much more efficient. Now that we have the Pyramids, New Hippo would grow fast, and it could be on the river north of Sidon, or on the lake north of Rome, to remove the need for an Aqueduct, and to link up our cultural boundaries from Rome to Carthage/Utica. Of course, a leader may come at a time when we want to use her for wonder-building in Leptis, so the option may not arise. Any thoughts?I played around with CivAsist myself and corruption will go down to 39% in Rome once we are in Republic.
Another thought : Should we ever get a leader, we don't know what to do with, :crazyeye: :crazyeye: , we could rush the Palace in Rome.
It will reduce corruption overall, and it's easier to set up, but I doubt it'll ever happen. :cool:

Do we just keep Rome for its iron?. It's going to be rather corrupt if we leave it as it is. CivAssist says it's over 50% corrupt. As we only have 5 cities, having one running at 50% corruption is a waste of 10% of our total potential productivity.

I think we should keep Rome. With Republic the corruption is going to be less severe, then add a courthouse and we should be down to around 25% corruption. That's not more than 15% more corruption than Utica for instance without Courthouse. And Rome will be a very high shield city for a long time.

If we do get leaders that we don't know what to do with, I think we should consider palace-jumping, which would also give Leptis breathing space. However, I don't think that will be anytime soon :sad:

Good luck, Alan :thumbsup:

"Are we nearly there yet?", whined little Princess Hannibaline. She was not happy. They'd been travelling for what seemed years, and still her two guardians wanted to move on further. Og the industrious but stupid worker and Ag, his pregnant wife, seemed determined to find the BEST location in the whole world to settle down and raise their new family. They had stopped on the edge of a stream, by a forest, and were debating for the hundredth time whether they should cross the river to the north east, or settle on the eastern grasslands, where they could see lush pastures and caught a fleeting glimpse of wild cattle grazing.

The immortal Hannibaline had been told by an ancient wise man called mad-bax that her destiny was to found a great civilisation to be called neoCarthage, consisting of five beautiful cities. Each city would have its own role in the empire, and the great seer, leif erikson, had predicted that one would become the cultural capital of the known world. All that seemed a distant dream as they had trudged over the mountain and arrived here.

Hannibaline couldn't really see the point of moving another inch, but the discussion seemed never ending. Eventually the mighty Gotm-God zamint the third appeared in a dream and told the Princess what she had to do. And she made it so. Og would head south into the forest to check whether there were really cattle in the distance, or if there was any better land nearby. Og's pidgeon soon returned with confirmation of the cattle, and so Hannibaline and Ag headed east to start building Carthage, and a Palace fit for the future Empress of Carthage. When Og arrived at the cattle pasture he first built a path to keep his feet dry, and then started building irrigation ditches with his trusty spade.

For 500 years the little settlement grew peacefully. Princess Hannibaline knew the alphabet, and had decided to learn, very slowly, to write. Og and Ag begat children, who begat ... well, you get the picture. A warrior had been trained and sent out to learn about the rest of the world and find out if intelligent life existed outside Carthage. Well, the most intelligent thing he could find in 3000 BC was a Roman warrior doing the same thing. They sat and exchanged food and drink and taught each other a couple of tricks. The Carthaginian had also trained in stone Masonry, and the Roman knew a thing or two about how to make bows and arrows and the secret Warrior Code, though he'd never been trained as an archer himself. So they traded these skills and swapped pidgeons to allow their two leaders to contact each other in future.

As time passed Caesar of Rome helped Hannibaline's people to learn lots more inventions - Ceremonial Burial, metal working in bronze for pretty jewelry (and spears, but she didn't see the point of them :mischief: ), the wheel, and pottery. The great mystery was how he managed to learn so much, since he was basically very stupid. However, he was prepared to exchange the first two of these for Writing, which she finally mastered in the year known as 2150 BC, and the others for gold that Hannibaline saved up and stashed away. Hannibaline was very upset after she had spent a lot of cash on the secrets of the Wheel, only to discover that none of her subjects knew where she could get any horses to pull wheeled carts. A classic case of putting the cart before the horse :(

After she learned to write, the little Princess started to learn about literature. As she had to create a great cultural city she wanted to build a Great Library to kick it off. By this time she had founded two more cities. Utica was founded on the west coast in 3000 BC to specialise in military production. She couldn't build charriots, but she knew what to do with bows and arrows as she had read about them. She had founded Leptis Major on the east coast in 2750 BC to be the cultural capital of the world, and started building the Great Library there. She had to pretend it was a Pyramid to convince the labourers to work on it, because they didn't know she was learning about Literature.

Two more cities were founded. Theveste in 1725 BC and Hippo in 1425 BC on the north coast, completing Hannibaline's five city plan. In 1225 BC she had learned all there was to know about literature, and she announced to an astounded population that the big building with all the shelves being built in Leptis Major was not a Pyramid at all. It was a Great Library! And it would be complete quite soon. Once it was, they would learn everything that the rest of the world knew as long as it was known by two other leaders. That left a small unanswered question. They only knew Caesar, so where would they find another leader to contribute to their knowledge? What they needed was to learn to sail. But Princess Hannibaline had become a complete culture vulture by now, and decided that she would not learn Mapmaking, but Philosophy. She was pretty sure this would enable neoCarthage to discover a new and better way to manage its political and economic life. She was also confident that her friend Caesar would find out about sailing and tell her all about it. This was a far-sighted lass who had read all the literature in the world!

So in 1050 BC she arrived at the gates of Rome with her great works of Philosophy, and struck a deal. Caesar learned all about Philosophy and Literature, and in exchage the little Princess learned to sail using Mapmaking. Utica and Hippo immediately switched their mighty factories to producing galleys, and neoCarthage started the search for intelligent life again. In 975 BC the citizens of Leptis Major completed the Great Library. They then built a Temple, and started on a Small Library, where ordinary people could go for paperbacks or to get out of the rain ... or so they thought :mischief:

Hannibaline had arranged for a supply of local spices to be delivered to the cities early on, but the growing population was clamouring for more luxuries to make their working lives bearable. The Princess knew that there was ivory in the north and wool in the south, but had not been able to spare workers to build the supply lines. However, in 950 BC an archer on patrol in the north reported that Rome had landed a settler, escorted by an archer, near the ivory. The Princess decided the time had come to initiate her plan to cut Caesar down to size.

For some time the Princess had been aware of Caesar's knowledge of iron working and that this meant he could build fearsome Legionaries, equipped with strong armour and heavy swords. It was clear that she needed to prevent him from building a large force and overrunning her beautiful but small empire. She had built a force of archers in preparation for this moment, so she declared war and ordered the brave archer in the north to deal with the invading Romans, which he did, taking two slaves.

Under the masterly generalship of Captain Buttkick, Carthage's archers razed Antium in 900 BC and Pompeii in 875 BC. In 775 BC Caesar was prepared to give up three more cities if the Captain would just stop hurting him. So within 125 years of the outbreak of the war, peace was restored and Pisae, Hispalis and Neapolis fell under the rule of the Princess. She was delighted of course, and an enormous celebration was held in Carthage. With a total of eight cities in the empire it was possible to persuade the citizens in Leptis Major to switch their construction efforts from a library to a Forbidden Palace! Only after they'd committed to this change of plan, burnt the library plans, and awoken the next day with hangovers, did the worthy and cultured citizens of Leptis hear that Hannibaline had immediately ordered Buttkick to destroy the three captured cities in order to remain true to her vow only ever to have five.

Having dispersed the Romans from the wool supply Roman slaves were ordered to build a road to deliver wool and ivory to the Carthaginian cities. Colonies were founded to work the supplies of these two new luxuries.

Caesar was reduced to a shadow of his former empire, but Hannibaline knew she would have to put an end to Rome, as he would stop at nothing to rebuild his Legionary army and take over the continent.

Meanwhile the first galleys had rolled down the slipways, and a couple had made brave but fatal attempts to discover new lands across the wild oceans to the west. However, in 750 BC acting galley captain AlanH set his sails to a favourable wind and they were greeted by the sight of a safe coast and new lands and new friends. The Great Library immediately delivered on its fabled promise, and Hannibaline suddently knew more than she needed to about Iron Working, Mysticism, Maths and Horse Riding. Caesar had finally outlived his usefulness as a supplier of new inventions, and was living on borrowed time. Hannbaline could now see that Caesar really was sitting next to the only supply of iron ore on the continent, and in 610 BC he completed the real Pyramids in Rome. These unique assets would provide a fitting trophy when the Carthaginian troops marched into Rome.

In spite of the fact that they were learning lots from the Great Library, Hannibaline continued to work hard, learning about Codes of Laws, to be ready for her new government, as she really wanted all those economic advantages, and to give the people of neoCarthage the right to vote for her. She started to work on this project in 825 BC and named it Republic. In 350 BC the Great Library taught them Construction. It later delivered Polytheism and Currency to take neoCarthage into the Middle Ages in 150 BC.

In 250 BC the Romans, having failed to learn a lesson, landed another settler near our ivory, this time accompanied by a legionary. Hannibaline declared war again and put DJMGator the 13th, who blew into town like a hurricane, in charge of her army of archers, now augmented by catapults. Two archers defeated the interlopers, triggering Rome's Golden Age, and the Princess's army advanced once more onto Roman soil. So by the time Carthage reached the Middle Ages they were at war with Rome again, this time intending to capture Rome itself, along with the Pyramids, and their iron supply, and to put an end to Caesar.

Will they succeed? Who did the intrepid galley captains meet overseas? Have we seen the last hurricane to hit Gator this year? Will Princess Hannibaline achieve her destiny to build a five-city empire to stand the test of time, and a cultural city to be the envy of the world? All this and much, much more in our next transmission. Don't fail to miss the next thrilling installment of "The Princess" by Machiavelli. :mischief:

I think we should keep Rome. With Republic the corruption is going to be less severe, then add a courthouse and we should be down to around 25% corruption. That's not more than 15% more corruption than Utica for instance without Courthouse. And Rome will be a very high shield city for a long time.I wasn't suggesting abandoning Rome. It's got the Pyramids, and they'll be handy for fast growth when we need it after an aqueduct or hospital, and as you say it's a good production centre. My question was whether we should jump a palace to it or near it.

If we do get leaders that we don't know what to do with, I think we should consider palace-jumping, which would also give Leptis breathing space. However, I don't think that will be anytime soon :sad:

I have news:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/AlansArcher.jpg

But I'm not going to jump the palace. I've built an army and it's going to win a battle so that we can build the Heroic Epic in Leptis (4 cpt for only 200 shields)?

And we are revolting - only three turns :banana:

Summary: We still have Rome, we are a Republic, we have had a victorious army and can build the Heroic Epic at our convenience, we are currently building the Hanging Gardens in Leptis. war weariness is beginning to be a nuisance, but we could end it now by making peace with Caesar for all his cities, leaving him dangling off the southern tip of the continent. Or we can finish him off. You choose.

Turn 130 50 AD Preflight
I checked whether we could revolt now, but decided it was not safe - we would lose population in Carthage and Leptis because they had too little in their food boxes. So I MMd Leptis to generate 1fpt, with no delay in its market, and planned to complete its market place before revolting. Other than that it all looked good. :goodjob:

Hit next turn.

IBT 1/3 Roman legion south of Rome retreats and is replaced by a healthy 3/3 legion. Carthage completes sword, starts market.

Turn 131 70 AD
Elite archer attacks reg.spear with settler, and dies :(. Spear promotes to 2/4
Vet archer south to jungle to stop spear diving for cover.
Galleys push back fog on foreign coasts - this goes on, with no exciting revelations, so I won't log it any more.

IBT Legion+archer approach Rome
Hippo completes sword, starts sword
2/4 spear fortifies on grass, covering settler.
eastern road through jungle completes.

Turn 132 90 A
7 cats in Rome bomb regular legion and regular archer, both redlined.
Vet archer dies vs 1/3 legion :(
Vet archer kills 1/3 legion, loses 1 HP.
Vet archer kills 2/4 spear with no damage and captures settler -> 2 slaves.
4/5 archer kills 1/3 archer, loses a hit point, doesn't win a leader.
Healthy archer moves to cover wounded elite archer.
Rome will give 2 cities for peace.

IBTReg archer attacks our archers and dies. One loses 2 HP.
Legion appears out of Cumae, spear appears on hill out of Veii
Utica completes sword, starts sword.

Turn 133 110 AD
3 cats redline regular spear. vet sword kills 1/3 spear and promotes with no damage.
Join native worker to Rome for pop 2, growth to pop 3 next turn.

IBT Archer comes out of Cumae, Legion moves towards Rome from Cumae, new legion appears from Veii
Indians ask for alliance vs. Persia, and would give 17 gold. I say no.
Leptis completes market, starts palace.

Turn 134 130 AD
4 cats redline regular legion and remaining 3 move out of Rome and take 2 HP off vet legion.
Elite sword kills 2/4 legion flawlessly.
Vet sword kills 1/3 legion, promotes to 4/5.
4/5 archer kills 3/3 archer, redlines but produces a Leader :banana:
Hamilcar decides to build an army in Rome so that we cn win a battle and build the Heroic Epic. This may not have been my greatest decision ... watch this space.
Check food in the city stores and decide to risk a revolt. We draw a 3-turn anarchy :D
Carthage needs 3 entertainers and will run at -4fpt, but will just survive for 3 turns.
Leptis needs one entertainer, Rome manages with a scientist, so we fire the one in Hippo and let Hippo grow.

IBT Ottomans and Kelts sign a peace deal.
Several Roman troops approach, including a legion/archer/settler group. A legion kills a sword near Veii, promting to an undamaged elite.
We learn Monarchy from the Library. Which allows us to build the hanging Gardens. Which means I should probably have sent the Leader to Leptis to rush the gardens :cry: I should have seen that coming, but to be honest I'd completely forgotten about the Library.
Never mind, we can probably build the Gardens before Babylon - the only other contender. And we can then build the Epic for another 4 cpt.
We are offered another roll of the Anarchy dice for Monarchy. I decline, as 3 turns is about as good as it gets.

Turn 135 150 AD
Vet archer dies vs regular archer on open ground :hmm: RNG has gone home for the night!
Join 2 swords to the army.
Cats bomb and redline the elite legion and the 8/8 sword army kills him, losing 1 HP.

IBTVet archer kills archer -> 3/4
Legion and settler retreat, archer advances on Rome.

Turn 136 170 AD
4/5 sword kills 3/4 archer without further damage.
4/4 sword kills 4/4 archer -> 3/4

IBT Persia suggests we might like to present him with a gift-wrapped copy of Monarchy. We politely tell him to stick it where the sun don't shine, and he less politely declares war.
Just to make the day perfect, Greece allies with the Kelts against us, so now we have four civs gunning for us.
The revolution ends and we choose Republic.

Turn 137 190 AD
Switch Leptis to Hanging Gardens in 14 turns.
We have some war weariness. Hire an entertainer in Carthage until we complete the market there and/or we make peace with Rome.
Move 4 swords towards Tarsus.
Slider 7.1.2 for +21 gpt.
Caesar would now give 3 cities for peace. He has 5.

IBT Spear comes out of Veii onto a hill.
Rome riots :( I misread the faces.
Turn 138 210 AD Cats redline the spear and a 4/5 sword kill shim, losing 1 HP.
Move 4 swords to the gates of Tarsus.
Slider to 8.0.2 with a scientist in Rome for +32 gpt. War weariness is increasing.

IBT Utica sword->sword. Hippo sword-> market.

Turn 139 230 AD
At Tarsus (Persia) a sword attacks a regular spear, loses 1 HP , and razes the city. Three other swords wonder why they were invited.

IBT All's quiet.

Turn 140 250 AD
We lob some stones at a regular spear in Veii until he's redlined. No other defenders pop up, so this one's as easy as Tarsus was. One sword finishes the job and razes Veii. Caesar has run out of road.

We can have peace now for three Roman cities, leaving him perched in his palace on the end of the south western peninsula. Sounds tempting to me, but I'll leave it to the next better player. I'm suspecting my judgement after my leader decision :confused:

We have some more swords heading south to take out Sidon, but they're probably not needed. The surplus troops from the Veii stack are heading towards Cumae and could probably take out Sidon as an afterthought.

Here's the map of our continent.

Lief Erikson,

teh Captain

instalment of "The Princess" by Machiavelli.
My, we had a busy Civ day today. An excellent write-up, very original. :goodjob: Found only 3 errors that were very minor. :blush:

A very nice turn set as well. :hatsoff: I think the Leader decision will be fine. The more culture, the better.

On Palace jump, I think it is a great idea to jump it to Rome. The only question I would have, and I hate to sound like Adrian :eek: , but should we consider the rank corruption bug in this decision? Please tell me NO!! and I will be satisfied. :cool:

Leptis Magna is progressing well. Keep up the good work.

On Rome, imho, I think we should take peace and their cities and keep them around for leader farming. We can easily tie them up down there with a few units.

Last point, I noticed that our alliances we entered are due to end now. That means that some of the wars will begin to wind down. We should probably make peace to end the War Weariness. How long should we stay that way? The wars may go on for a while, but how should we proceed regarding this. Do we want to keep wars going or...? :mischief:

@Alan : Your playing skills may s... :joke: , but your write-up skills sure rocks. :D

My son asked me more than once what I was giggling about. :goodjob:

:lol:
Amazing write-up and amazing play :goodjob:

Writeup: I managed to finish the temple, it was the library that got switched to FP.

Leader: I think army and then heroic epic is an excellent choice if we're going to keep on skirmishing our nearest neighbours. HE = more leaders in the MA, which can only be good news :)

Palace jump: I misunderstood you the first time, Alan. Now, when I see where you're going, I have to ask the same q' as leif: what about the rank corruption bug? Can we get a ruling on this from M-B?

I think the Leader decision will be fine. The more culture, the better.
Yes, but we want early culture. The way I've done it I've delayed HG by 14 turns, and cost us 56 culture points.:blush:

On Palace jump, I think it is a great idea to jump it to Rome. The only question I would have, and I hate to sound like Adrian :eek: , but should we consider the rank corruption bug in this decision? Please tell me NO!! and I will be satisfied. :cool: That's why I thought we should discuss it in case it becomes an issue, and why I was pleased for all of half a turn when I found a better use for the leader during my turns - it avoided the dilemma.

Rome is remote from the other cities in our small empire, so if we move the palace to Rome and do nothing else every city becomes rank 1 and we *do* exploit the bug. You could argue that it's not such a huge exploit as normal, because we *could* have just used RCP to achieve the same result with only four cities in a ring. But I think we should not go there.

So the next question is, given that palace jumping is permitted, what would a legitimate palace jump look like in the context fo a 5CC? The standard criterion is that the palace should have OCN/2 cities nearer to it than they are to the FP, making a sensible Palace core. In a 5CC that makes no sense. We only have three cities whose distances from Palace and FP can be compared. So do we ensure that two are nearer the Palace? Or one? Or do there have to be three - the nearest we can get to OCN/2?

I think on balance we'd better simply rule out a palace jump altogether.

On Rome, imho, I think we should take peace and their cities and keep them around for leader farming. We can easily tie them up down there with a few units. I think so too, but it was only an option on the last turn so I leave it to the next player.

Last point, I noticed that our alliances we entered are due to end now. That means that some of the wars will begin to wind down. We should probably make peace to end the War Weariness. How long should we stay that way? The wars may go on for a while, but how should we proceed regarding this. Do we want to keep wars going or...? :mischief:War weariness only accumulates when a war is active, and on a per-civ basis. The war with Rome is the only one that's affecting us now. We haven't done much with Persia yet and may still have reverse WW from them since they declared on us. The phoney wars are having no effect. I would suggest we renew the alliances in the phoney wars, make peace for Rome's three cities, and do what we need to do to Persia. War weariness will stop, and mayeven go into reverse for a while from Persia.

zamint3 - On deck
DJMGator13
leif erikson
Capt Buttkick UP - unless he wants to pass again
AlanH - Just played

@Captain: If you can play in the next 72 hours I suggest we go with the above. If not we'll skip you and you can pick it up again in the normal sequence.

Thanks for the proof reading, guys. I've corrected those items, and I also remembered we used the Pyramids to pre-build the Library, so I've adjusted the write-up there. Does it need any pictures?

If Gator is happy I'll publish it and we can all go and see what the others have been up to.

I should be able to pick it up and play tomorrow or tuesday so 72 hours should be ample, espescially if we make peace with Rome (and I agree we should).

Yes, but we want early culture. The way I've done it I've delayed HG by 14 turns, and cost us 56 culture points.:blush:
That's one way to look at it. One could also argue that, with The Heroic Epic to build, we can make up for that because we had nothing to build until Sistine's in the interim period. Also, with HE, iirc, we have an increased chance for leaders which can be used to rush wonders as we proceed, thus increasing our early culture as the game plays out.

I think one of us should PM M-B on the palace jump. We are not jumping the palace to a remote place, relatively, and we have little choice due to the terrain. I was looking to suggest moving Carthage south as a way to more centrally locate the palace, I know it is a crzy idea, but there is no place where a city can grow to size 12+ between Rome and Leptis Magna because of the mountains. I won't go into why I wanted to do this, long and dull, but the possibility doesn't exist anyway.

I don't think we should include any pictures with the write-up. We've already told them we are going for 20K, everyone knows where Rome is, I'm sure. Let them read your awesome words and use their imaginations to create pictures in their heads. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :p

That's one way to look at it. One could also argue that, with The Heroic Epic to build, we can make up for that because we had nothing to build until Sistine's in the interim period. Also, with HE, iirc, we have an increased chance for leaders which can be used to rush wonders as we proceed, thus increasing our early culture as the game plays out.I agree it's not a big deal, and the HE should help to make up for the fact that we aren't militaristic and improve our leader rate. I think I felt worse about not having thought of the gardens than I do about the in-game impact, which is not big and may disappear.

I think one of us should PM M-B on the palace jump. We are not jumping the palace to a remote place, relatively, and we have little choice due to the terrain. I was looking to suggest moving Carthage south as a way to more centrally locate the palace, I know it is a crzy idea, but there is no place where a city can grow to size 12+ between Rome and Leptis Magna because of the mountains. I won't go into why I wanted to do this, long and dull, but the possibility doesn't exist anyway.I'll call him up on it if you think we want to do it. It's already been pointed out that in Republic the corruption in Rome is less anyway, and if we build a courthouse there it may not really be an issue. The biggest effect of a jump would be on Hippo and Utica, as they'd become rank 1. I'd hate to become the team that everyone thinks sails closest to the exploitation wind. Which is why, if we did it, I think we would have to move at least one city and maybe two nearer to Rome. That would waste a lot of our investment in terrain and improvements. I actually now think we can probably use courthouses in Rome, Hippo and Utica to get to the same result more efficiently.

Let them .... use their imaginations to create pictures in their heads.I'll go along with that. I'm certain the pictures on radio are better than on TV.

I've sent mad-bax the following PM. I mainly wnt to clarify it incase we decide we want to colonise overseas - say Persia? A Palace would prevent flips and make us productive there.

Hi

Do you have any views on Palace jumps in a 5CC game? We managed to build our FP during a particularly neat peace negotiation with Caesar, and so the subject came up. We don't necessarily want to do it, but we've been debating how you can determine when a jump would be exploitative.

Having captured Rome we'd quite like to keep it, and it would make a nice spot for a Palace if we had a spare leader any time, though it may not be worth jumping for a variety of other reasons. Of course, later on we might want to split our empire across two continents and the question could arise again.

I *could* argue that it may not be an exploit at all, since you can achieve the same effect - two cities with Palaces plus three cities at corruption rank 1 - just using RCP. However, that does constrain city layout, so doing it with a remote palace may give an advantage.

The rule of thumb Ainwood suggested once was that your Palace core should have at least OCN/2 cities closer to it than to the FP. How would you interpret that in a 5CC? All three cities nearer to the Palace? two, or one? None is the most exploitative option, of course, but any configuration can achieve three rank 1 cities if it's done right.

For now I've recommended we don't even think about it as I don't want us to get a reputation as the most exploitative team in the SGOTM :rolleyes:, but I'd be interested in your views.

Rome is remote from the other cities in our small empire, so if we move the palace to Rome and do nothing else every city becomes rank 1 and we *do* exploit the bug. Rank 1, does that mean every city gets the same level of corruption?

That's not what CivAssist tells me!? :confused:

Yes, but we want early culture. The way I've done it I've delayed HG by 14 turns If we irrigate one of the grass-tiles we can work the last hill around Leptis Magna and cut off one turn. ;)


War weariness only accumulates when a war is active, and on a per-civ basis. The war with Rome is the only one that's affecting us now. We haven't done much with Persia yet and may still have reverse WW from them since they declared on us. The phoney wars are having no effect. Is this really through, somebody please confirm!
Sh.. there's a lot I don't know about this game. :D

We have no rank 1 cities at the moment, and we haven't moved the Palace. A city's rank is equal to the number of cities closer to the Palace than it is to its nearest Palace/FP. Currently we have the following city distances from the two palaces:

Carthage: Palace=0, FP=4. Nearest palace=0, rank = 0

Leptis: Palace=4, FP=0. Nearest palace=0, rank=0

Utica: Palace=6, FP= 9.5. Nearest palace=6, rank = 2 (Leptis and Carthage are nearer to Palace)

Hippo: Palace=6.5, FP=10. Nearest palace=6, rank = 2 (Leptis and Carthage are nearer to palace)

Rome: Palace=18.5, FP=14.5. Nearest palace=14, rank = 4 (All others are nearer to Palace)

My ranks may all be low by 1. Since the capital does get some corruption they may count from 1, not zero. But I think the relative values are correct.

The numbers shown by CivAssist are total corruption and waste, which includes distance and disorder effects. Looking at the in-game F1 screen I'm not sure I even understand the CivAssist numbers:

If we irrigate one of the grass-tiles we can work the last hill around Leptis Magna and cut off one turn. ;)
Good catch. That's true now we are republicans.

Is this really through, somebody please confirm!
Sh.. there's a lot I don't know about this game. :DI may be slightly incorrect about the phoney wars. We may have accumulated a little WW deficit from Greece and Keltoi, but only because we've been sailing a galley around enemy shores.

War weariness accumulates in your account for a specific civ when you lose cities, lose units, allow enemy troops to stay in your territory, or put your troops in enemy territory. It doesn't accumulate just because you are at war. Our galley may have accumulated some WW points from the last of these causes, but probably not enough to trigger the first level of WW for these civs. There's an article somewhere in the War Academy about it.

Here's m-b's reply to my PM:

This isn't the first time this has come up.
The GOTM rule says that moving the palace to a remote location primarily to reduce corruption is not allowed. It's not the exact words, but something like that. So what I have been saying to the other teams is that moving the palace to another location is OK so long as it can be justified for another reason. For instance, to grab a resource or a lux.

Sooo. I don't think we can justify jumping to Rome, as we have secured iron without the need for a palace. If another civ moved in seriously in the south and we were risking losing our iron to a flip then I guess we could do it. If we want to secure horses in Persia or another overseas lux we could do it.

Interesting that we are obviously not the only team with a FP :D

How about moving the palace for the purpose of getting culture in Rome to secure wool is within our borders? :D

:lol: I rather think a cheaper cultural building such as a Library would be adequate for that purpose, and it would produce faster cultural growth as well.

We have no rank 1 cities at the moment, and we haven't moved the Palace. A city's rank is equal to the number of cities closer to the Palace than it is to its nearest Palace/FP. OK, so if we move our Palace to Rome, they all get rank 1 because there is no cities closer to Rome than to FP in Leptis Magna?

Does this mean that all the corruption I see in CivAssist comes from distance corruption? (Note that I've set the capital city to Rome.)


Originally Posted by mad-bax
...moving the palace to another location is OK so long as it can be justified for another reason. For instance, to grab a resource or a lux.How can grabbing a resource be a reason?

OK, so if we move our Palace to Rome, they all get rank 1 because there is no cities closer to Rome than to FP in Leptis Magna?Correct.

Does this mean that all the corruption I see in CivAssist comes from distance corruption? (Note that I've set the capital city to Rome.)Yes. Sorry, I didn't spot that you could, and had, changed the capital location. That explains why I couldn't reconcile the CivAssist numbers with my understanding.

How can grabbing a resource be a reason?I don't think it can, which is why I said we can't use this as a reason for moving it to Rome. But securing a resource is different from grabbing it. For example, if we want horses in Persia and we can only put a one of our five cities on that continent, then the only way we can secure it against a flip may be to jump the palace to it.

If Gator is happy I'll publish it and we can all go and see what the others have been up to.

Gator not happy but only because Florida lost to LSU last night and I did not get home from the game until 3am. Had something to do with 90,000+ people staying to the end of a game that we lost in the last 30 seconds.

Great job on the great leader. The RNG gods are punishing me with my real life football teams, both pros & college. So hopefully that will bring us good luck in this game.

Write-up is excellent/flawless/superb since my first reading of it was after the minor correction. ;)

-----------------------------------------

Once our wars move past the phoney stage would we not be better off in Monarchy since we are probably going to be constantly defending our Ivory source for foreign settlers?

On the Roman issue: is there any benefit for us to leave rome in the game now? We have their iron and the Wonder. Since we have met the rest of the world we do not need them for the great library benefit. Also I have had a capture Wonder city flip back to the original civ even after I had starved it down to size 1 and then increased pop back up to size 7 or 8.

OK nice discussion and thanks for clearing things up for me Alan.

Back to the game :

:hmm: RNG has gone home for the night! :lol: Well you had your fair share of luck : Great Leader on second (?) elite win and 3-turn anarchy!!!!! :mischief:

Nice set of turns, things are looking good. :goodjob:

I suggest we :
1) Make peace with Caesar, reducing Rome to one city.
2) Continue leaderfarming against Persia.
3) Bring shieldproduction in Leptis Magna up to 24 (blue ones!)
4) Reduce unit cost. I can see you guys are great warmongers, but we cannot use any more troops atm. ;) ...and we should grow Utica and Rome asap.
5) As war weariness is not a problem in our phoney wars, keep the MA's running. Maybe we should start some new wars involving Germany, they don't have Monarchy, but a lot of money.

Any thoughts on timing our GA?

Thanks Gator, sorry to here about the game.

I'll publish the spoiler. I've polished it up a bit in the last hour or so, mainly correcting and completing the tech progression.

The phony wars aren't going to get real any time soon. We have to get to Astronomy and beyond before the remote civs can reach us. Persia is the only civ we need to decide about. Do we go after the horses? Or do we limit ourselves to defending our own continent against Persia with slow units? If we are defending it will take a long time for WW to kick in. If we go on the attack we need to make it short and to the point and then sue for peace.

I don't think defending the ivory is sufficient reason to go to Monarchy. The AI is pathetic at overseas invasion, and this wouldn't even be seen as invasion - they'd simply be trying to settle uninhabited land. So they'll send a settler and an obsolete defender, it will land on neutral territory which has no effect on WW, we'll kill it with very low probability of a loss, so that'll not affect our WW either, but it will hurt the AI. We could even use WW to our advantage. If we allow them to settle first and then raze the city the WW hit for them will be greater.

Re. Romans: I like the idea of using Ravenna for leader farming. Leaders are the key to building wonders in Leptis fast, and there are a lot of them available in the Middle Ages. Rome will provide us with local units to kill, whereas anywhere else it will be more difficult to sustain a war with no cities to provide footholds or recovery.

The Roman culture is tiny compared with ours, but I agree, we could lose Rome to a flip. If we lost the pyramids we'd not miss it for a few turns, as it's only going to assist our growth a while in Utica, Hippo and Rome itself. We'd miss the iron if we lost it for more than three or four turns while we were building swords, I guess. Rome would get a pike defender, of course, but recovering it shouldn't be too difficult, and simply give us another chance at a leader.

[EDIT] Crossposted with zamint3:

I agree with your suggested plan. The only problem I see is item 2. We can hope, of course, but based on my experience at Tarsus, we'll only get one shot at it. Kill one spear at Sidon and we may raze the city. Or are you proposing heading for the other continent?

GA timing - I would suggest waiting until we finish the HG & HE and are ready to build the next Wonder by hand and pick up the shield bonus for the Sistine Wonder build.

If we have 24spt prior to GA we pick up 10 more shields (since we are working 2 nonshield tiles).

Currently 28 turns to Theology.
Need 11 turns to finish HG @23 shields
Need 9 turns to finish HE @24 shields
Prebuild palace for 8 turns earning 192 shields while Theo finishes
Kick off GA and finish Sistine in 12 turns @34spt (yielding 408 plus the prebuild 192 gives 600shields)

Would we be better to wait until Education? We could build libraries everywhere before that point, and then we can use the GA to build universities fast and turn up the wick on science to ensure a steady stream of late MA high culture wonder techs.

I've posted our spoiler. We are now free to visit the thread and marvel at the rich variety of team approaches to this game.

Currently 28 turns to Theology.
Need 11 turns to finish HG @23 shields
Need 9 turns to finish HE @24 shields
Prebuild palace for 8 turns earning 192 shields while Theo finishes
Kick off GA and finish Sistine in 12 turns @34spt (yielding 408 plus the prebuild 192 gives 600shields)Sounds good, we should time the discovery of Education with the build of Sistine, then we can kick in a university (hopefully cashrushed this time ;) ) before the next prebuild.

@Alan : I have no idea how fast we can research in a 5CC game, but we don't want the techs before we need them.

I agree with your suggested plan. The only problem I see is item 2. We can hope, of course, but based on my experience at Tarsus, we'll only get one shot at it. Kill one spear at Sidon and we may raze the city. Or are you proposing heading for the other continent?
India is now the leader in the game, regarding Firaxis score. They seem to be beating Persia pretty well. Does Persia have horses still or has India seized them? I'm not sure heading to the Indian/Persian continent does much for us now. Seems to me it means more area to protect. We won't be able to ship those horses home until we get Navigation, or is it Astronomy? By the time we get those techs, we should be able to trade for them and build what we need to defend our resources and luxuries. India, Ottomans and Babylonians all have extra horses.

It seems to me that to win a 20K game, we need to keep the AI tech pace as slow as possible to prevent them from launching a space ship or winning by UN vote. (We should probably target Fission and the UN as something we build when we get that far) If we can keep the weaker civs at war with the strongest one or two civs, they should exhaust each other without any of them coming out dominate. It is interesting that India is in the lead and Greece is tied with us. I think that over the long haul, India will give us the most competition because of its position. The other AI can not get to them. If they defeat Persia, they will have a dominate position until Navigation or beyond.

Like Zamint, I think, said, our tech pace should provide a new wonder each time we need one. Once we get Education, I think we may have to research fairly quickly to get the bottom of the tech tree as well as the top, perhaps alternating between, unless we can trade. But I hope we can stay ahead of the AI and not have to trade techs to them, keeps them moving slower.

Did any of that make sense??

BTW - I know I'm a little slow, but, Alan, how did you know we drew a 3 turn Anarchy period before it was over?? :confused:

EDIT - I think moving the Palace to Rome is a great idea to keep it from flipping! It seems to me that M-B answer leaves things pretty wide open... :mischief:

I realise we in uncharted waters concerning tech pace, but I was worried that if we don't research anything we'll have no idea when our pre-builds need to be timed for.

BTW I've looked at the spoilers. Here's the tally for 20K contenders. Bede is leaving us standing, and Tao, with Colossus and the Lighthouse, is probably ahead as well:

Bede:
Colossus 1675 BC
Temple ???
Great Library 925 BC
Library ???
Great Lighthouse 510 BC
Great Wall 210 BC
Colosseum ???
Heroic Epic 50 AD
Hanging Gardens 310 AD

Total culture at 250 AD estimated 1285, 41 cpt
Tao:
Temple
Colossus
Great Library
Great Lighthouse
Library
Heroic Epic
Cathedral

Xteam:
Great Library 975 BC
Temple 825 BC
Forbidden Palace 470 BC
Library 370 BC
Colosseum 210 BC
Cathedral 10 BC
Hanging Gardens 350 AD

Total culture at 250 AD 730, 26 cpt

I recommend an urgent review of our victory condition, gentlemen!

India is now the leader in the game, regarding Firaxis score. They seem to be beating Persia pretty well. Does Persia have horses still or has India seized them? I'm not sure heading to the Indian/Persian continent does much for us now. Seems to me it means more area to protect. We won't be able to ship those horses home until we get Navigation, or is it Astronomy? By the time we get those techs, we should be able to trade for them and build what we need to defend our resources and luxuries. India, Ottomans and Babylonians all have extra horses.
Let's get back to fundamentals. I like horses, but what are we planning to use them for? If we need any could we trade for them, or do we have to take them by force? If we are still going for 20K culture, how much warring are we planning to do? Or do we just dig in and defend our continent?

BTW - I know I'm a little slow, but, Alan, how did you know we drew a 3 turn Anarchy period before it was over?? :confused:Ask your friendly Domestic Advisor on F1 and she'll tell you. As it happens I took a screenie:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam_F1_130AD.jpg

EDIT - I think moving the Palace to Rome is a great idea to keep it from flipping! It seems to me that M-B answer leaves things pretty wide open... :mischief:It all depends on where we're going.

Should we let the phony wars end and try to pick up our tech pace and shoot for a diplo or space. We're too late to try conquest.

One advantage we have is we have not kicked off our GA yet. The other advantage is that we had a suicide galley stay alive for 3 turns at sea and have contact with the full world. Not just PER & IND.

Team Bede - has triggered their GA already, but they have not started their war with Rome yet. Although they indicated they have blocked access to the iron.

Do we continue down our current path and hope to overcome this thru MA Wonders or is an estimated lead of 500 culture going to be too hard to overcome.

It's not just the current lead that really concerns me. Bede is running at 15 cpt higher rate than us and widening the gap every turn. Unless someone can see a way to change a -15 cpt difference into +3 or 4 cpt pretty quickly, I don't think we stand a prayer.

Diplo is our next option, I guess. We haven't blown our rep as far as I know, and we should avoid reopening hostilities with Rome too soon if we make peace now.

As of now we haven't slowed the tech pace too bad. Nothing that a quick gifting to tech parity could not fix.

A problem we will have later is a prebuild for the UN. With only 5 cities we will not be able to prebuild a 1000 shield palace. We could sit on our next great leader in an attempt to save it for the UN rush, but that is a long way off. Also if we go diplo we may want to go ahead and eliminate Rome to offset a no vote.

Space is always an option if we fail to build the UN.

We could make peace with Rome now, blockade their sole city to reduce the number of settlers they can get out to rebuild their empire, and eliminate them 20 turns later with no rep hit.

A Universal Suffrage prebuild would get us close enough. By that time we should be cranking 40 or 50 spt in Leptis so it would only take another 10 turns max to finish the UN after we got Fission. As long as we are tech parity the AI will never build it that fast from scratch.

Cool, UN it is then.
As a former obsessive builder, I can do UN. As a matter of fact, I haven't yet had a gotm or cotm win that wasn't diplo, although only a misguess at the Jason dates kept me from domination in cotm 4 ;)
We should research upper tier (to get Copernicus' asap), keep everyone at tech parity, fight defensively when we have to and trade techs as much as possible. Prebuild the ToG to coincide with the discovery of radio (?) and get flight and fission for free? Or is that the other way around (can't remember vanilla civ tech prices anymore...)? :confused:

Impressive performance by Team Bede. :eek:

I agree in the change of plans. :thumbsup:

Btw: should we go max on the lower tier and switch only when we get education from the GLib? That might be the most efficient tech'ing.

So much for cultural seeing?? Do we need the Universities education provides in order to research faster? The age old question also arises, self-research versus purchasing techs. Do you optimize for self-research or income, or both?

Do we work to keep our continent to ourselves? What is the best way to do that, dominant culture to get peaceful conversions or push them off by military action, risking our rep and a U.N vote?

While I agree we should make the change, I also think we should, where it is possible and practicle, continue to keep pre-builds going in Leptis and keep its culture up.

Sorry for all the questions, wish I had the answers... :blush: :confused: :crazyeye: ;)

So much for cultural seeing??It was a good idea to go for it, but we did a poor job of choosing when to start and what to build. We move on :D

Do we need the Universities education provides in order to research faster? The age old question also arises, self-research versus purchasing techs. Do you optimize for self-research or income, or both?UN date is key. We have to accelerate our own and the AI's pace. As this is Monarch we mustn't rely on the AI to determine our speed. They'll go off down the optional techs and take forever to get through the IA. Remember our SGOTM2? We had to drive the research pace. We can trade for anything the AI researches using our techs. I think we should beeline along the bottom branches of the MA and IA trees, as the AI seems to focus on the top.

Do we work to keep our continent to ourselves? What is the best way to do that, dominant culture to get peaceful conversions or push them off by military action, risking our rep and a U.N vote?Dunno. We can't cover the whole continent with five cities, though if we abandoned Carthage and set up a new city further south we could improve our coverage a lot. Any non-Roman AI city that's founded on our continent is going to have a hard time not flipping to us.

We've shown before that we only need a few live civs when we get to the vote, so we could consider the possibilty of culling some of them to reduce the pressure on our space. If we destroyed India and Persia and left the adjacent continent vacant, for example, the other civs would focus on developing there first before coming after our tundra and mountains.

While I agree we should make the change, I also think we should, where it is possible and practicle, continue to keep pre-builds going in Leptis and keep its culture up. Wouldn't we do better to spread the culture about and grow the rest of our borders?

I think with our limited number of cities we will need universities. Since all our cities will have libraries and universities they will all continue to expand, so we could keep our strongest shield city on Wonders and prebuilds. We could skip building the HE until after Sistine or build it in another city.

I've been thinking. Always a dangerous occupation for my brain cell :rolleyes:

All the teams are going for 5CC currently, so if this continues the green laurels will be won by a very low Jason score. We have an option open to us to switch to an all -out domination game plan. Take peace with Caesar and his three cities, grow our armed forces and invade the adjacent continent, and beeline for Cavalry and whatever naval tech it will take to reach the rest.

It has several appeals:

1. It plays to our strengths as war mongers. We've demonstrated we aren't really culture vultures.

2. We *could* be the only team taking that route so teh Green laurels would be ours. With the hidden score line we could play fast for a few turn sets and get a long way up the score curve before anyone noticed we had switched, making it difficult for anyone to chase us.

3. We have a Gold laurel set. A Green one would look neat next to it in the trophy room.

4. It makes a suitably Machiavellian twist to relate in the next episode of "The Princess" :evil:

Oh! And 5. We could kick off our new empire with four Roman cities. Three for peace now, and one more when we betray Caesar in the same or next turn. And our next leader can then legitimately jump our palace to Rome ... or Persepolis :mischief: If we choose this route we take no prisoners :satan:

I agree with Alan. That would be truely cool :cool:
It opens up a lot of questions, though.

I'm pretty sure we can take out everyone with cavs so max research to cavs? What about gcs for upgrades in that case?
Trade for horses and build horsemen saving the next GL for Leo's?
Take out our neighbours asap, with combined arms?
Are we even sure that conquest with 5 cities will give a higher Jason than 20K with 5 cities?

Edit: crosspostedwith your edit...
:lol: I see, we leave 5CC altogether, you [pimp] :lol:

When I said all-out domination ... no prisoners ... I wasn't kidding :evil:

Think big. Domination means more than 5 cities, and that was in there before I added item 5. :D

[EDIT] I deliberately didn't suggest 5CC Conquest because Offa are doing that, and will probably achieve a fast date. That's why I took a more extreme line.

I feel better about this idea the more I think about it.

- We have the Pyramids, so we can grow new cities on our home continent fast.

- We can build our existing military strength to use combined arms to acquire Persia's horses and Great Lighthouse - we need some galleys asap. I've checked, and the Great Lighthouse is all we need to get to Greece and the rest of the world.

- We can start our Golden Age using our UU, as soon as we have a few more cities to benefit.This will give us a kick on the research path towards MT, and/or to grow our treasury for upgrades.

- The Palace should jump to Persepolis as soon as we can get a leader. We might want to switch Leptis to the Heroic Epic to increase our Leader chances, since a Sistine Chapel is about as useful as a fish on a bike if we're going to be beastly to everyone.

- I suggest ignoring Chivalry and just concentrate on building horses once we have them. Use swords and cats to take Persia then do the rest with Cavalry.

I think, off in the distance, I hear a familiar beating of drums?? :spank: Could it be the drums of the warmongers?? :hammer: Seems to me that "The Princess" fell off her horse, that she doesn't have; must have been drinking some of that fine Roman wine, banged her head and had some sense knocked into her. :D ;)

If we move quickly enough, we might even get India wrapped up before they get War Elephants. While I always prefer gold, green is looking mighty nice right now. I do hate to give up on a "Sponsored Variant", but this calls for drastic action. :p

Perhaps we should consider holding the Golden Age until we obtain Education from the Great Library so we can speed into Universities?? Until then, it is Galleys and Swords?

We keep the far off civs warring and worn down, move to Persia, who we already are at war with, and take them out. Then secure India and prepare for the finale. :rockon:

Leptis to Heroic Epic then, and research to the bottom half of the tree. Heading for the Holy Grail of technology, Military Tradition! "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!!" :beer:

EDIT - @Alan - When you say take no prisoners, I assume that you mean get to the domination limit quickly and then it is Conquest all the way, for best Jason score, of course? :hatsoff:

Sorry, yes "Take no prisoners" was not intended to mean raze everything in our path. We should try to grow towards the domination limit as fast as possible. I don't think we should stop below the limit, though. I'm proposing a fast-as-possible domination victory.

By the way, these are not stone tablets I'm wielding. If anyone thinks this is a rotten idea then say so. We need to debate it.

Sorry, yes "ake no prisoners" was not intended to mean raze everything in our path. We should try to grow towards the domination limit as fast as possible. I don't think we should stop below the limit, though. I'm proposing a fast-as-possible domination victory.

By the way, these are not stone tablets I'm wielding. If anyone thinks this is a rotten idea then say so. We need to debate it.
I agree. I have been off the board for most of the day thinking of something we could do. The problem for me in this game is that I haven't had any milestones by which I could guage our progress, so much new territory.

Here is what I see.

We have a difficult row to hoe trying to catch up in the culture category. In fact, with the doubling of culture after 1000 years, we are behind to stay as long as they build their wonders as quickly as we do, or even a little slower. I don't see how we can make up the difference except by a fast tech pace and a handful of leaders.

For Diplo, it is doable but I'm not sure if we can do it fast enough. We will have to pick up the tech pace while keeping the AI balanced so that no one emerges as a tech pace setter than can challenge us to getting to the U.N. first, again, reference SGOTM 2.

For Space Ship, again, we are held back by the 5 cities and the slower research rate. I'm sure we can do it, but again, can we do it fast enough.

5CC Conquests I have read is quite difficult. I think we could do it but we will never beat Klarius' team to a faster finish, I don't think. I don't remember reading if they got the Great Lighthouse. If not, and we captured it, we might have a chance. We'd have to get it done before Astronomy imho, so we would almost have to move akmost our entire operation to the Persian/Indian continent to do it to take advantage of the resources there.

I feel like switching to the Green Laurel is admitting defeat. However, it could also be looked at as snatching victory from the jaws of defeat. I think a line form a Clint Eastwood movie applies, "A Man has to know his limitations". :lol:

Just think of the switch as a helping hand to Gator to win an award other than a Spoon ;).

IND has put a big hurt on PER without knights so I think we can stay in the bottom half of the tech tree also. As stated the delay in the graphs will keep people wondering what we are doing.

I feel like switching to the Green Laurel is admitting defeat. Me too, and winning would be way too easy if everybody else does 5CC.


....and btw I allready got some green laurels. ;)

Part of this strategy could depend on whether we are allowed to keep a change of target quiet. I have PMd M-B as follows:

Hi, another question:

*If* we were to abandon the sponsored variant, would we have to declare it, and if so when?

This is a purely hypothetical question :D

Me too, and winning would be way too easy if everybody else does 5CC.


....and btw I allready got some green laurels. ;)
Good point. You joined the Xteam to target Gold.

Me too, and winning would be way too easy if everybody else does 5CC.


....and btw I allready got some green laurels. ;)
These are good points I hadn't considered. The question for me, then, is what would you like to try to do as Gold seems a little remote atm. :cry: Unfortunately, I have no magic tricks in my bag on this one (as if I ever did? :rolleyes: ), not even that I can find by reading different articles. If we continue to go for the gold, I see two choices.

1. Continue on our course for culture but try to accelerate our tech pace and our aggressiveness in the hope for leaders. We would have to build a lot of wonders real fast for this to work, and good ones; finish Hanging Gardens, Heroic Epic, Sistine's, Bach's, Copernicus', Shakespeare's, Newton's University, and if we get the chance, Sin Tzu's, Leonardo's and Magellan's. We can't miss any of the main one's and we'd have to build them as quickly as possible, gaining leaders by aggressively attacking Persia and India.

2. Accelerate tech pace and head for U.N. or Space. The key here will be planning ahead to get thru ToE to Fission quickly.

Personallly, I am open to whatever the team would like to try. It is always fun to come from behind and often one learn's more from that. However, I think it will be necessary for us to commit to a course and work together to see it through. Never have mixed culture and war, but there is a first time for everything. :mischief: :D

I guess part of our decision depends on MB's response to Alan's question.

The only decision that needs to be made now is whether we remain inside the 5CC limits. Our other two options that leif has summarized do not exceed the 5CC. We can always push forward to MT as 5CC and make a decision at that point.

The other question is do we know if all teams are doing 5CC?

I think 20K is a remote dream. As leif said in his earlier post we have no reason to believe we can even keep the cpt difference at its current level let alone reduce it. Anyone betting on our RNG against that of Bede for leader generation? If we press on with it we do so only because we don't want to admit defeat. But let's be clear, we know we can't win. I doubt if we can even come second given Tao's list of wonders.

I'm sure we can win a diplo victory - the question is can we do it fast enough? In GOTM 28 the Jason dates for the victory conditions were:

Conquest (offa's target) 1200 AD
20K (Bede & Tao) 1760 AD
Diplo 970 AD
Space 1330 AD

I don't know if these dates still apply to this game. I must say the map looks very unfamiliar east of us. Let's look at the best we can do ...

We are at 250 AD and we have to research or acquire 13 MA techs, 16 IA techs and Fission to get to the UN. We might get 3 more from the Library, leaving 27 to get elsewhere. ToE would get us 2 free, but the AI scientific civs will get Nationalism free which is no help. 25 techs to research or buy.
At 4 turns per tech we'll take 100 turns, reaching 1250 AD. To achieve 970 AD we'd have to do 4 turn research on 18 of them and trade for the other 7.

Space is the same problem as far as research to the Mdern Age is concerned, plus some more 4 turn research, plus the problem that we may not be able to build enough spaceship parts at once with only 5 cities. So diplo is the way to go if we think we have a chance, and if we want to stick with 5CC.

Can we do it?

EDIT
The other question is do we know if all teams are doing 5CC?We know everyone started that way, as the results page shows they are all on the Sponsored Variant. We won't know if anyone else has abandoned it if they are not required to disclose. As zamint3 has pointed out, if no one else abandons 5CC and we do, the Green laurels will be a hollow victory as we'd be running a one horse race.

To achieve 970 AD we'd have to do 4 turn research on 18 of them and trade for the other 7.
EDIT
As zamint3 has pointed out, if no one else abandons 5CC and we do, the Green laurels will be a hollow victory as we'd be running a one horse race.
Anyone betting on 4 turn research over that period given only 5 cities? :wallbash: imho, we would have to get an immediate Golden Age, research Education and get Universities built. Even then, I have my doubts concerning 4 turn research. :cringe:

I think we actually have a better chance at 5CC Conquests looking at the dates Alan put out above. At least in trying to achieve conquest we have a chance because we know we can successfully warmonger. :thumbsup: The continents are far enough apart that we can work them one at a time until we need the final push and those far out civs can be kept at war for years, hopefully exhausting themselves and falling behind in research. :mischief: That doesn't mean it will be easy, but I am beginning to believe we can do it faster than we can get to diplo or space. 1200 AD looks a lot more doable than 970 AD or 1330 AD.

Conquest also gives us a chance to catch the teams that have already started down this path. They may have to wait until they can safely cross the ocean, so they may hit a long period where they have nothing to conquer. We will need the Great Lighthouse and horse.

Should we bring the 3rd landmass up to tech parity and leave IND & PER behind so that we can conquer them easier.

Also how much does the 5CC variant change the best date estimates.

Also how much does the 5CC variant change the best date estimates.
afaik, the best dates are not culculated based upon the variant, unless M-B has done so for this game specifically. In the past, the best dates used were those determined for that particular GOTM. They are the benchmarks and the teams are measured for how close they come to them.

Horses and The Great Lighthouse await us on the nearby continent. We may have to move 2 or 3 cities over there and the palace to produce enough units for conquest. :eek: Sure would make life interesting, won't it?? :D

Just finished a nice hot shower, cogitating the possibilities. A very dangerous move. :mischief:

I am growing to like the idea of a try at conquest. While I am not sure we can catch Klarius and crew, we may be able to give them a run for their money.

We are at war with Rome and Persia and Persia is losing to India. We clean out our continent while we build galleys and swords. We then transport them over to India and, I think 15 to 20 swords with a few Hoplites should do it, we use ROP to move up close to Delhi (Furs and river) and Madras (Horses). We then use ROP Rape to attack India, at the same time making peace with Persia and allying against India. When India is finished, we turn on Persia and finish them gaining The Great Lighthouse. That means we have to be prepared to give up up to 3 cities on our continent to move to India's. When we get a leader, palace jump. Just before we go, we should try to make some workers we can transport over to grow the cities as we should have plenty of slaves to improve the tiles. Just a thought on the potential to proceed. :mischief: Crazy, huh?? :hmm:

I like it :D
But what estimated finish date can we get to doing conquest?
I'll have time to play it this evening, but I don't think we should press on until we've decided what we want to do...

Actually I'm happy with any decission, though I do think we should keep playing 5CC. :)

@Leif : As I see it we only need The Great Lighthouse on the other continent, so we just have to give up one city. :confused:

M_B has replied. He hasn't answered the direct question, but I think it's unlikely he would award teh Green Laurels if only one team split with the variant pack. So my evil plan will have to go back in the box, I feel. We stick with 5CC!

I think leif is right that we stand a much better chance of getting a good Conquest date than Diplo. There are no special Jason dates for 5CC, and I don't know whether the dates I stated for GOTM 28 still apply here, but our conquest date should be less affected by limited city count than a diplo or space date if we focus all our efforts on getting and producing horses.

With limited cities for production, we must avoid Chivalry and we ought to try hard to get Leo's. We can produce 2.3 horses for one knight, and Leo's will save us 40 gold on each upgrade. I've just realised, to avoid Chivalry, we'll need to destroy the Library as soon as we see Chivalry appear on two F4 screens :eek:. We shouldn't move or destroy Leptis though, as it has the FP and will be a low corruption production center.

We could also consider jumping Rome instead of one of our first cities. That would feel like less of an exploit as well.

@Leif : As I see it we only need The Great Lighthouse on the other continent, so we just have to give up one city. :confused:
As I see the problem, we can't ship horses to our continent for quite a while, can we? At least until Astronomy and maybe Navigation (have to look again at the map). So, if we want an army of Horsemen, we have to bring the production center to the horses. There is also Iron on the Indian Continent, so it is a better production area for warmongers anyway.

I think we might have to plan to become nomads, moving our population to where the best production is so that we can optimize what we build with the least corruption and the enjoy the greatest resources.

EDIT - We may have to save up some Gold for cash rushing some imporvements. But I think we might be able to do what we did with Leptis in getting up the pop quickly, and thus the production. But we will need a leader to build a Palace for us, unless we do a free Palace jump (that will be quite difficult with Leptis so large, and so old)

@Alan - Instead of dumping The Great Library, we could disconnect the Iron. I am wondering if we keep the Greek, Ottoman areas at war if we can fininsh this with Knights? I'm not sure we should wait for Cavs if we want a fast date, but will listen to the discussion for a while.

Edit - Certainly, we would prefer the Ottomans not get to Sipahi!! :eek: :eek:

Disconnecting iron is a much better idea, thanks leif :goodjob:

I missed it earlier in the game, but I'm on top now: The GLight grants safe sea travel which means horseshipping should be fine :)

I missed it earlier in the game, but I'm on top now: The GLight grants safe sea travel which means horseshipping should be fine :)
Sorry, but we still are not connecting, To produce Horsemen, you must have horses in the resource box in your city. As there are, at least, sea squares between the Persian/Indian continent and ours, we won't get horses in the resoiurce box in our current cities until harbors can connect sea squares, thus shipping horses to our starting continent. We can certainly ship horsemen units to different continents, but we won't be able to build them unless we move to the Indian continent, I think?? :crazyeye:

But if we capture the city with the GLight and get horses into that city and a harbour in that city, wouldn't the horses then ship to our own continent?
I'm as :confused: as you are, leif :lol:

Someone, please help us :thanx: in advance ;)

Sorry, but we still are not connecting, To produce Horsemen, you must have horses in the resource box in your city. As there are, at least, sea squares between the Persian/Indian continent and ours, we won't get horses in the resoiurce box in our current cities until harbors can connect sea squares, thus shipping horses to our starting continent. We can certainly ship horsemen units to different continents, but we won't be able to build them unless we move to the Indian continent, I think?? :crazyeye:
I think what the Captain is saying is that, when we grab the Great Lighthouse from Persia we'llhave safe sea travel and should be able to trade between the two continents. We are connected to the Persia/India continent by sea tiles. So we should then have horses in all our city resource boxes and be able to build horsemen in all of them. I *think* he's right, but unfortunately we can't test this theory because Persia won't talk to us. So we can't check if any of their resources or ours are tradable as a result of their Lighthouse.

X-posted. I think you're right, Captain, but I don't have any reference that explicitly says the Lighthouse allows trade over sea squares.

PS I just checked the Manual, and it says sea trade requires Astronomy, and the Lighthouse allows galleys safe sea passage. It doesn't tie the two together at all. We're not so far from Astronomy, though.

PS I just checked the Manual, and it says sea trade requires Astronomy, and the Lighthouse allows galleys safe sea passage. It doesn't tie the two together at all. We're not so far from Astronomy, though.
This is my understanding, that it allows Galleys safe travel in sea squares but doesn't connect harbors, Astronomy is required for that. I would rather not wait for Astronomy, but it may require almost that much time to set up??

Team Offa has to be facing the same dilema, don't they, sort of evens the playing field a little more. Another reason to shift back to warmongering. May as well lose fighting than calculating (as in SGOTM02). :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

EDIT - I just read that after posting and realized you guys have had a major impact on me!! :mischief:

It costs the same to upgrade horses to cavs as it does to upgrade horses to knights to cavs, unless we have Leo's. So is cutting off CHIV really important? We have enough time to mass produce horses before we can learn CHIV anyway.

With the Great Lighthouse we can safely sail galleys from the 4 tile Bactra (PER) island west to Germany. We only have to cross 4 ocean tiles and can station in the sea tiles safely.

I do not think we need to wait for Cavs.

Knights take 70 shields each to produce. With only 5 cities I figure we are far better off building horses than knights.

With the Great Lighthouse we can also sail east to Greece safely. You could be right - we go for a knight's conquest.

With the Great Lighthouse we can also sail east to Greece safely. You could be right - we go for a knight's conquest.
So, where are we? Have we about made a decision to continue as a 5CC but change our strategy to warmongers? This should be interesting!! :cool:

So, where are we? Have we about made a decision to continue as a 5CC but change our strategy to warmongers? I'm in! :D

About being able to trade horses, I found this in the civilopedia, but I'm not sure of anything:

OK, let's see if we have a plan. I'll summarise what I think I've seen so far:

1. We go for 5CC Conquest on the basis that it is most likely to give us a respectable result starting from where we are now.

2. A possible timeline:

Phase I - The next few turns:
- Make peace with Rome and take and raze his three cities.
- Keep Leptis on Hanging Gardens as a prebuild for Leo's.
- Carthage - rush and then build swords.
- Raze Sidon.
- Reopen hostilities with Rome and raze his capital.
- Rush market asap in Hippo the start galleys in Hippo and Utica.
- Complete Rome barracks asap and build swords.
- Move existing galleys towards local landmasses ready to get home when Lighthouse is ours.

Phase II:
- Use new galleys to transfer swords and Hoplites to Persia.
- Take Pasargardae and Persepolis, abandon Rome and Utica. Barracks in both, then horses.
- Raze other Persian towns if India hasn't already.
- Return old galleys to homeland.

Phase III
- Get Chivalry from Library, upgrade horses to knights, build knights.
- Conquer the world.
Note: There's already a German single tile island city, to be taken in a false peace treaty.

"I love it when a plan comes together" - Hannibal the A-Team

- Keep Leptis on Hanging Gardens as a prebuild for Leo's.

We're looking good. I have my reservations about completing Engineeing, Feudalism and Invention before 11 turns expire. Perhaps we should consider building Heroic Epic and then start a pre-build for Leo's while we research in that direction.

Otherwise, let's mount up and move out!! :goodjob:

Well, we could switch to a Sun Tzu pre-build as soon as Feudalism arrives, which won't be long as the AI loves it.

Should we drop Theology and go for Engineering? It also helps a lot with mobility across rivers.

Well, we could switch to a Sun Tzu pre-build as soon as Feudalism arrives, which won't be long as the AI loves it.

Should we drop Theology and go for Engineering? It also helps a lot with mobility across rivers.
I suppose we won't have much use for excess leaders, as if we ever get any :cry: so Sun Tzu'z as a pre-build would be a good move. If we don't get to Feudalism that quickly, then Heroic Epic??

Committed to Conquest, what warmonger could resist heading immediately for the bottom of the tree!! :mischief: :lol: :lol: :lol:

EDIT - Good luck Capt., will it be Combined Arms or Horsies?? :eek: :D

I think swordies only is the call for the next turns, until we have horses on board. Combined arms is too slow for a fast conquest. They're best used for fighting defensively at first with slow chipping away at the AI.

How far along with Theology are we? I'd hate to scrap it if it's only a few turns away and one of the AIs throws a fit and research Engineering for us...

What to do with the build in Leptis? I think we should go with the HE. We have rax in most our cities anyway. Any subsequent leaders can be used for palace jumping to Persepolis and/or Leo's.
I'd like to hear what Gator and Zamint has to say on this though.

What to do with the build in Leptis? I think we should go with the HE.I agree, we can allways use some leaders. :)

Research : we might as well stay with Theology, with our current unit cost we can't research anything fast anyway, and I don't think unit cost will go down soon. ;)

Do we get to upgrade our Swords to Medieval Infantry with Feudalism? :confused:

Agreed on swords. We should take a couple of Hoplites with ut to trigger out Golden Age, though.

We have 28 turns left on Theology, running single scientist, so we've invested 12 turns and 12 beakers.

I wasn't suggesting we finish Sun Tzu - I agree any new barracks we need will be on the other continents, and 5 barracks on;y cost us 5gpt. The Gardens are only 300, that prebuild is 69 shields now, and so will only last another 10 turns. I'm only suggesting we switch the pre-build to it when it's available, as a 600 shield stepping stone to Leo's with Invention probably more than 10 turns away. Leo's would save us 40 gp per horse upgrade.

Do we get to upgrade our Swords to Medieval Infantry with Feudalism? :confused:Yes, I think so.

I like the idea of using Sun Tzu as a prebuild, provided we know we can get it before any existing prebuilds run out. Are we sure Feudalism is available by then?

The announcement pages say nothing about Med inf., but I seem to remember playing around with azap inf. in gotms with the same setup (although I didn't play this particular one). :confused:

As I said, the AI likes Feudalism and seems to research it first in the MA. They like their pikes. We don't need to decide until nine more turns, when we reach HE minus one turn. If Feudalism hasn't arrived by then we can decide whether to let it overrun the HE in the hope of Feudalism arriving soon, or to build the HE and restart a Leo prebuild.

The gotm 28 intro says swordsman upgrade is on, and I'm pretty sure Azap Infantry was available in the original game.

It may be worthwhile to switch research now. We can't significantly increase our research rate, even going to 30% sci only takes 3 turns research at a cost of -2gpt. Although the same 30% rate would allow us to switch immediately to FEUDALISM in 20 turns or to ENGINEERING in 23 turns, both at -2gpt.

Considering that we still need to learn 3 techs before we can build Leo's, we could finish HE in 6 then crank out a bunch of units. At 24 spt we would need to start our Leo prebuild 25 turns before learning INVENTION. If we do not need units from Leptis we could stick to original plan of completing HG, HE then start a prebuild (which is still probably too early).

I do not think we need our GA to help complete the Wonder build. I think we should save it for when we have horses and CHIV. With the GA bonus we have 3 cities that will be close to making knights in 3 turns and 1 city that is just short of making knights in 2 turns. If we can squeeze 1 or 2 shields in these cities (temporarily using negative food) we could produce nearly 28 knights during our GA from just 4 cities.

As I said, the AI likes Feudalism and seems to research it first in the MA. I agree, we'll probably have Feudalism pretty soon, but it's still a long way to Invention, and we need two civs to have it.
Leptis Magna is only 21 turns from 600 shields, and I doubt we have Invention by then. :confused:
If we do HE first we are 31 turns from Leo's 600 shields.
I really don't know how fast the AI will research with all this war going on?


We don't need to decide until nine more turns, when we reach HE minus one turn. We are only 6 turns from HE. :)

I am having trouble understanding what is gained by continuing research on Theology? Do we see it as something to trade? It certainly serves little purpose in our new found course.

Considering that we still need to learn 3 techs before we can build Leo's, we could finish HE in 6 then crank out a bunch of units. At 24 spt we would need to start our Leo prebuild 25 turns before learning INVENTION. If we do not need units from Leptis we could stick to original plan of completing HG, HE then start a prebuild (which is still probably too early).
I think this is a very sensible way to look at things. I think we will get Feudalism from The Great Library and we will have to research Engineering and Invention ourselves. According to CivAssist, Engineering would cost 960 and Invention 1173. For comparison, Theology is 1066. So, we have some time between the now and Invention to produce units (except we need a Barracks) and whatever else we would like, say Heroic Epic. Rethinking my earlier, rash, statement, leaders may be useful to create pillaging stacks to remove enemy civ resources from their network, making them easier to conquer.

I would appreciate someone pointing out the other side of the argument I am about to make, because I'm not often correct about the subtleties of this game. However, it seem to me that we will be better off keeping the AI's at each other's throats to both slow down their research efforts, keeping Knights dominant longer, and to keep them worn down regarding number of units so that when their turn comes up for destruction, they are both backward and weak. Even with only 5 cities, we should be able to keep targeted research ahead of the AI's? As we go for Mil. Trad., let them give us Chivalry through The Great Library? Until Knights are available, we used Swords, Horses or whatever else we can claw our way forward with, and with The Great Lighthouse, the other civs should not be able to rebuild on what we've destroyed

We are only 6 turns from HESorry, yes. And you may be right about the time to get Invention.

Gator's calculations for knight production look good, except we can only buiild knights in cities that are connected to horses, and I think we've concluded that we need Astronomy before our existing cities get that privilege. How many cities are we going to relocate to Persia?

Gator's calculations for knight production look good, except we can only buiild knights in cities that are connected to horses, and I think we've concluded that we need Astronomy before our existing cities get that privilege. How many cities are we going to relocate to Persia?
Looks like we X'ed. I think we should consider 3, everything except Carthage and Leptis. We shouldn't have to build new cities, we can capture what we need and then build them up with workers produced from those cities we will leave behind. Eventually, we could probably also take Carthage if we need to. The problem will be jumping the palace, whether by leader or free jump. A free jump will require that we abandon Carthage too. :hmm:

This is the only way I can see that we can build the amount of forces we need do fast conquest. It may also require that we cash rush certain improvements, like Marketplaces. I'd have to look closer at the map to determine which cities are on rivers for us to capture and use. Let me go take a look.

EDIT - Just looked at the save and, of course, we have to take Persepolis as it has The Great Lighthouse. Luckily it is also on a river. Pasagarde has the horses, but is not on a river. The river runs to the north of Persepolis, so there may be a town there and there may not. Perhaps we should take a settler along to build a city where we need it. I think that cities almost have to be along rivers to avoid wasting time building aqueducts so we can get them productive quickly.

I'm not sure on jumping those other cities. I'll keep an eye open for any possible trades from Per/Ind. If we can trade with them, we should also be able to ship our own horses? Or??? :confused:

If there aren't any big new issues that need to be discussed, I'll play this evening. I think this discussion was necassary at this point so I'm sure you'll all bear over with me not playing earlier ;)

This was a key turning point in our game. We had to make a major shift in our thinking, so the pause was essential.

Available trades with Persia and India will certainly be the clue as to how many cities we'll need to move. We only be able to see that when we liberate the Persian territory covering the western side of the sea passage, and if there are harbours in the Persian and Indian cities (and ours?).

This was a key turning point in our game. We had to make a major shift in our thinking, so the pause was essential.

Available trades with Persia and India will certainly be the clue as to how many cities we'll need to move. We only be able to see that when we liberate the Persian territory covering the western side of the sea passage, and if there are harbours in the Persian and Indian cities (and ours?).
Just checked and India has Horses and Furs available for trade while we have Spices. But we do not have any Harbors. We can build one in Utica in 7 turns or cash rush it and switch to Galley or Swordsman. Galley is probably a good bet because it is the closest town on the water to the Indian continent.

BTW - I hope we only have to move 1 city and that the harbor connection works. I will be surprised if it does and so was trying to prepare us to move more cities if needed. Sorry if I confused things. :blush:

Good luck Capt., you will have a lot to do to get us oriented in the right direction with the switch. And the delay was warranted, the discussion took some interesting turns!! :cool:

Unfortunately, all the trade adviser will tell you on F2 is "We need a sea route to their capital". We don't know yet whether that's because we don't have a harbour (which leif says we do), or because the sea route passes through enemy territory (which it does - I don't think there's a sea tiles route direct to India yet), or because we wouldn't be able to use it anyway :confused:

I've been asking around in another place, and I'm getting positive answers about sea trading with the Lighthouse, but I'm still not confident.

I've been asking around in another place, and I'm getting positive answers about sea trading with the Lighthouse, but I'm still not confident.
Once we build a Harbor in Utica and the Capt. takes Persepolis and gets a Harbor built there, then we'll find out. My only worry now is that India will beat us to Persepolis and destroy The Great Lighthouse. :cry:

I've been asking around in another place, and I'm getting positive answers about sea trading with the Lighthouse, but I'm still not confident.I'm quite confident, but we won't be able to trade with India unless they capture the Lighthouse. ;)

Do we wanna make peace with Persia once we take Sidon, and then ROP-rape later when we are ready to invade? :cool:

I assumed *we* were going to take the Lighthouse and the Persian horses! :confused:

Don't early sea routes require "line of sight" between the harbors? Just because both landmasses have harbors if they are not facing each other I don't think they will work until the techs come in later.

I don't think line of sight is required, just a continuous sequence of tiles of the right maximum depth, unimpeded by enemy units or enemy borders or barbs. The issue here is which maximum depth is allowed when you have the Lighthouse but have not reached astronomy - coast or sea?

Sgotm4 250 - 320 A.D.

Preflight - Make peace with Rome for his 3 cities + 3 gold. Raze the cities. 10% lux. MM Carth to market next turn. Leptis has defecit food for a turn, but is then back on track. Switch to Engineering in 19 turns running 1 gpt deficit at 40% lux. Switch Leptis to HE. Switch Utica to Galley.
Phew, much work in the preturn ;)
IBT: Carth market --> Sword.
Turn 1 - 260 A.D. MM Utica to HE in 5 and +1 food growth. Move units towards Sidon.
IBT: Utica Galley --> Galley.
Turn 2 - 270 A.D. Sail 2 swords out of Utica, going S. Move besides Sidon.
IBT: Watch a Keltoi Army, consisting of Elite European Swordie, Vet Archer and Warrior* :lol: move about... Carth Sword --> Sword.
Turn 3 - 280 A.D. Bombards fail outside Sidon. No need to rush things cause we haven't got enough transports ready anyway so I wait...
IBT: Loose 3 HPs off a vet archer in the far south. Carth builds worker (on growth :)), starts Pyramids to prevent the chop from going to Carth.
Turn 4 - 290 A.D. Two bombards redlines spear in Sidon. Attack with elite Sword, no HP loss, raze the city. 3 cats redline PER Galley outside former Sidon. MM Carth after growth last turn. Sell Monarchy to Germany for 208 gold b/c Greece has Monarchy and I'd like us to have the German gcs rather than Greece :D
IBT: Ottomans and Keltoi sign alliance against us :lol: Carth Sword --> Cat. I stood between the decision of getting enough Cats for them to be effective and getting Cat count up. I think we should go for 10 Cats and disband them as soon as we get horses. Utica Galley --> Galley.
Turn 5 - 300 A.D. Move forces towards Veii, newfounded Roman city.
IBT: Leptis HE --> Cat. Carth Cat --> Sword.
Turn 6 - 310 A.D. Not much.
IBT: Ottos and Germany ally against us. Rome Rax --> Sword. Leptis Cat --> Cat. Hippo Market --> Library. I figured we need to do some research towards Cavs ourselves so I think we need some sci buildings and happyness in place.
Turn 7 - 320 A.D. We're at another junction. We have positioned our troops close to Veii and are ready to move in. I'm leaving it to discussion and the next player whether we should RoP rape Rome now. We haven't got much Galleys in place so i think we should RoP rape and move our troops back to the western shores to await transportation. I read somewhere by SirPleb that he signed an RoP, and then took out all cities of a civ in one turn. That way your bad rep didn't spread. Anyone have experience with this?

Has Team Offa won there conquest in 860AD? They are now listed as number 1 even though they are 600 years behind Team Bede.

@Captain: Good work. Considering we only have 5 cities, the turns are still quite intensive, aren't they!

I don't think we should assume our rep will survive a rop rape, even with a one-turn destruction of Rome. I've seen discussions about how you can perpetrate multiple rop rapes by having several rops in place before you abuse the first one, but I think all I 've read says that subsequent rop deals wil cost a great deal in lux, techs or cash. I suggest we assume we only get one rop rape opportunity. Is Rome the best victim, or should we save the honour for one of the others? Rop rape is a particularly effective way to establish a beach head on another continent. Should we use it on one of the remote civs? Or on India?

The key question is: are we going to need gpt deals in future, or will we want to rop rape later? If not then rop rape on Rome costs us nothing and could save some time and units.

Edit:
Has Team Offa won there conquest in 860AD?It looks a lot like it :eek:

PS. Offa's last save in the detailed saves list was for an 11 turn set. Their previous submissions show that they can count to ten, so I think it's pretty likely that's the date to beat.

zamint3 UP
DJMGator13 - On deck
leif erikson
Capt Buttkick - Just played
AlanH

Good work Capt. :goodjob: moving us into a new mode takes some extra work. :cool:

Well, looks like we have a tough target to meet with Team Offa!! :eek:

I am having trouble understanding the ROP Rape discussion with Rome. We don't have an ROP with Rome, only a peace deal. If we wait until it expires in 13 turns, we're going to have another 4 or 5 Roman cities to destroy. I thought we checked this in SGOTM02 and decided that breaking a peace deal wasn't so bad a hit to rep?? :crazyeye:

Looking at the map, do we really want to build more Cats. They cost 2 GPT Maint. and we'll have to ferry them all over to the other continent, 5 Galley's worth for 10 Cats. Swords will be more efficient won't they? :confused: The best defenders we'll meet will be Pikes, maybe? Most should be Spears and Immortals, all 2 Defense, as I have yet to see Feudalism.

If we're going to beat 850 AD, we'd better get rid of Rome and start moving units to India, we have an ROP with them and we have 2 or 3 Galleys to begin moving things there. :D

At leif: I really don't know. All I know is that we need Cats in numbers for them to work effectively. So I decided to get the count up to 10. The option would have been to raze all Cats, which we can still do, of course.

Also: I didn't suggest we sign an RoP just so we can break it [pimp]
If we should do that it'd have to be b/c we knew we could take out Rome in one turn and that we also knew our RoP rape wouldn't be told to other civs (so we could do it again when we wanted to).
I'm all for breaking the peace anyway...

Btw: does India know anyone besides PER? If not, we still have a spotless rep with the main continent.

Btw: does India know anyone besides PER? If not, we still have a spotless rep with the main continent.
Checking the save, there are no contact trades available with India or Babylon. I can only assume that means that they have already made contact with one another and that we probably do not have a spotless rep. :rolleyes:

Contact trading doesn't happen until Printing Press in this game, and map trading at astronomy, I think.

Contact trading doesn't happen until Printing Press in this game, and map trading at astronomy, I think.
How right you are!! :goodjob: Every time I think I remember the rules we are playing under, I forget something!! :cry:

Checking the save, there are no contact trades available with India or Babylon.Contact trading cannot be done before Printing Press, looking at F4 we can see that India and Persia don't know any of the far away civs. (We have an embassy with India, and there's no blue or red lines from India to anybody except Rome, Persia and us, and nobody knows Persia either. :) )
I was thinking of signing peace and ROP with Persia, signing ROP with Rome and renew our ROP with India (to make sure it runs another 20 turns).
Then we take out Rome, Persia and India in that order.
India and Persia won't like us breaking the ROP with Rome, but they won't cancel their ROP themselves, at least I have never experienced that. :evil:

I would like to build a harbour in Leptis Magna to see if we can trade for some horses. ;)


btw : Well done team Offa, that'll be a tough one to beat. :goodjob:

It's looking good guys we're breaking away from team smackster. ;)

I'll probably play tonight or tomorrow morning.

btw : @leif : what happened in Cotm 4 ? :mischief:


EDIT : Should I play 10 or 13 turns? (or 3 :) )

It's looking good guys we're breaking away from team smackster. ;) How can you tell? We're still well below them up to 350 BC, although we look to be closing on them.

EDIT : Should I play 10 or 13 turns? (or 3 :) )
If you can manage 13 I suggest you go for it. If you prefer to play fewer, feel free. I'm not sure why the Captain bailed out at 7 :confused:

I think 13 turns for zamint unless anything else pops up that warrants a discussion?

I was also wondering what happened to you in Cotm 4, leif. You're usually around where I am (although Cotm 4 is probably the best played gotm I've ever played. I should have stuck with my conquest goal, though...)

I'm not sure why the Captain bailed out at 7 :confused:
:lol: I didn't bail out. I just wanted to check if we should break the peace with Rome...

Apologies :blush: I read your notes at the end as passing off to the next player. So do you want to complete your 3 turns?

I also obviously misread them wrt rop rape. I'll have to be more careful with my interpretations in future.

Apologies :blush: I read your notes at the end as passing off to the next player. So do you want to complete your 3 turns?
I really don't mind any which way, but perhaps let zamint play so we pick up the pace again?

Edit: I just reread my turnlog and I think I'm the one who should apologize :blush:
1) I wrote RoP rape when I meant breaking the peace deal or try out the SirPleb approach I described.
2) I did pass the game on. I should have been clearer on this.

Sorry guys. It's not much of an excuse, but work has gotten the best of me this last week so I'm all :crazyeye:

Btw: we don't have to beat Offa's finishing date to get the green laurel. We need to keep focusing on fast conquest and cannot be many turns behind, but if we get Rome up to decent size and jump Utica to Persepolis, we should have a pretty nice Jason score :thumbsup:
Provided we finish before ~ 950AD, that is...

13 for Zamit sounds good.

Hey, I may be gone this weekend but can play Monday so if it comes to me before that and someone wants to grab it to keep the pace going feel free.

No problem, Captain, I've made my share of faux pas this week. It must be the season for it :lol:

[edit] Whoops! Done it again! Sounds like we may have to skip or switch Gator.

How can you tell? We're still well below them up to 350 BC, although we look to be closing on them.Spammers award! :lol: (Sorry, couldn't help myself, I was so glad seeing us first on some list. :mischief: )

Ahah! The important one! Well spotted :lol:

btw : @leif : what happened in Cotm 4 ? :mischief:
I keep telling you guys I don't know how to play this game!! :blush: Must have been studying up for the SGOTM! :lol: :lol: Really, I am not a big fan of Conquests, rather play GOTM, but... :rolleyes: All I'll tell you is that I have never been more happy to get a game done and submitted than I was with COTM04, struggled the whole time. :eek:

@Zamint - Good idea to build the harbor in Leptis, since the other 3 or 4 may go nomad. ;) And good point about the F4 screen. Good luck, let's get this show on the road!! Playing 13 is the way to go. I'll keep my eyes open for the weekend if Gator is away; Hope your have fun Gator, no more Hurricanes for a while. :crazyeye:

Good news : We have The Great Lighthouse
Bad news : This is going to take some time.

320 AD Preflight
Make peace with Xerxes and get 28g + 4 gpt. There was some reverse ww, so we have to adjust the slider to 20% lux.
Set production in Leptis to Harbour, and mm Hippo to produce sword in two turns.
Establish an embassy with Persia for 38g, Persepolis is defended by 4 spears (2 vet).
We buy ROP with Persia for 31 g.
We get ROP + 12g from Rome

IBT:
India wants 40 g to renew our ROP, we’ll just wait a turn.
Carthage : swordsman -> swordsman
Utica : galley -> galley.

330 AD Turn 1 :
Sign ROP with India for 40 g.
Dow on Rome.
7 cat bombard vet Legion in Veii, only one hit, and there is a reg legion as well. :(
We loose 2 swords taking out one legion and two spears, there is a 2/4 legion left, and a spear and a warrior outside town. Our elite sword redlined but survived.
Our army and an archer razes Roman capital defended only by reg legion and spear.
Unhappiness sets in especially in Rome.

IBT:
The two Roman units outside Veii march towards Rome.
Hippo : sword -> sword.

340 AD Turn 2 :
All 7 cats fire again with only one hit. Move troops in position for final attack next turn.

IBT :
Carthage : sword -> sword.
Babylon completed the Hanging Gardens.

350 AD Turn 3 :
Our 7 cats fire away again, two hits. :)
Our army gets down to 2/14 before killing a 2/4 legion.
Vet sword kills 2/4 spear and the Roman empire is history.
Our first two swords land in Persia.

IBT:
Utica : galley -> sword.
Leptis Magna : harbour -> barracks
Hippo : sword -> sword.

360 AD Turn 4 :
We cannot trade with Xerxes, he probably haven’t got any harbours, anyway he does not have any extra horses anymore.

IBT:
Carthage : sword -> sword.

370 AD Turn 5 :
Change production in Rome to temple, disband one cat to get temple in 5 turns. Join a worker to Rome.

IBT :
Leptis Magna : barracks -> sword.
Hippo : sword -> sword.

380 AD Turn 6 :
Vet sword disperses a barb camp for 25 g.

IBT :
Carthage : sword -> sword.
Utica : sword -> sword.

390 AD Turn 7 :
India is reducing Persia, Xerxes only got 5 cities left.

IBT :
Leptis Magna : sword -> sword.
Hippo : sword -> sword.

400 AD Turn 8 :
-

IBT :
Carthage : sword -> sword.

410 AD Turn 9 :
The Indian roadnetwork is incomplete, this may take a little longer.

IBT :
Persian galley spotted off our coast.
Rome : temple -> marketplace.
Utica : sword -> sword.
Leptis Magna : sword -> sword.
Hippo : sword -> library.

420 AD Turn 10 :

IBT:
The Indians just pillaged the Persian horses. :mad:
Carthage : sword -> sword.

430 AD Turn 11 :
The Indians are closing in on Persepolis, investigate Persepolis for 27 g, it’s still the same but we have to move soon.
Build two additional colonies on the ivory.

IBT:
India and Persia signed a peace treaty. :eek:
Leptis Magna : sword -> sword.

440 AD Turn 12 :
Dow on Persia:
We take Persepolis, but it was close, last sword redlined before winning, loosing two swords, cats destroyed barracks in Persepolis. :rolleyes:
Attack on Pasargadae failed. Lost two swords and two archers.
Sell barracks and temple and abandon Utica.
Our citizens seem to be happy to go to war, lux down to 10%

IBT :
Carthage : sword -> sword.

450 AD Turn 13 :
There are 3 unmoved swords outside Pasargadae, but I didn’t wanna attack this turn.
We can get horses + furs for ivory from the Indians, so The Great Lighthouse does allow you to trade over seasquares.
Greece will sign a peace treaty now!
No sign of Feudalism yet!
There is still a resistor in Persepolis, if it flips …..!

Good progress Zamit, sounds like we need glasses for our cat operators. I will be able to play this weekend, not going out of town.

How are we going to secure the horses from PER and later war vrs IND? Is the plan to keep Pasargadae and disban another of our cities vrs trying to protect a colony?

Solid stuff, zamint3 :goodjob:

Here's the roster if nothing changes. Gator will play Monday. If leif wants to pick it up and play a set first that's fine, we can just swap.

zamint3 - Just played
DJMGator13 UP
leif erikson - On deck
Capt Buttkick
AlanH

Good news about the Lighthouse giving us trades.
It looks to me as if we'll have to move into Pasagardae. Defending a horse colony sounds too risky once we declare on India.

I should be able to play later today.

Good job, Zamint!! :goodjob: Good news that we can trade between continents too! :D I was wrong again... :blush:

We take Persepolis, but it was close, last sword redlined before winning, loosing two swords, cats destroyed barracks in Persepolis. :rolleyes:
Attack on Pasargadae failed. Lost two swords and two archers.
This sounds terribly familiar!! :eek: I am begining to really dislike Cats. :rolleyes:

If we take Passagarde, what city do we give up, Hippo?

Good luck Gator. :cool:

We can get horses + furs for ivory from the IndianI think we should do this. We have 8 turns left of our ROP with India, and Hippo, Carthage and Leptis Magna can produce a horse every 2 turns, a total of at least 12 horses before we need to attack India. :)
We should not keep Pasargadae, the other cities are so productive, and once we hit India we'll have no trouble defending a colony.

I was thinking we should take out the two Persian cities on their main continent and see if we can get their island city in a peace deal before we destroy them. ;)

With the Lighthouse we should also start thinking about sending a smal army to the east, to clear out some islands. :cool:

I did slow down research a bit, to increase happiness and not run a deficit.
I think we should cut it down to a single scientist, and when Feudalism comes in, (must be soon now :confused: ), then we go full ahead towards Chivalry, and try to trigger our GA at the same time. The game will be over before we can research Military Tradition, or is there anything else we want on the lower branch of the tech tree?

is there anything else we want on the lower branch of the tech tree?Engineering is all I can think of, for speed across rivers. Other than that we do't need anything if we can finish this with knights. You're probably right about Pasagardae - we should be able to keep India on the back foot and not have to defend our horse colony.

is there anything else we want on the lower branch of the tech tree?
Is it still worth researching Invention and, if a leader pops his head up, producting Leonardo's Workshop? With only 5 cities, disconnecting iron to build horses and then connecting to upgrade to knights would boost knight production, wouldn't it?

Other than that, I agree with Zamint's outline. The only other problem may be transporting that number of Horseman to Indian soil quickly enough to be effective.
EDIT - But I agree we need to try... :D

Preturn - 450AD
TRADE: Ivory to IND for Horses & furs
Adjust sci to 70% for ENGIN in 1 turn (we make 36gpt vrs 54gpt)
Rush the library in Hippo (only 2 turns left) to help with CHIV research and to start them on horses
switch other builds to horses

IBT - 2 PER galleys leave Gordium / a Bhorse attacks our Hoplite SE of Rome - we win

Turn 1 - 460AD
learn ENGIN set to FEUD
resist. in Persepolis ends - start forest chop trying to save some gold on rushing harbor
Rome horse (3 turn per horse) => horse & Rome culturaly expands
Leptis Magna horse => horse
Hippo library => horse
GER, OTTO, KELT & GRK will make peace if we want it
sci to 0% hire scientist in Persepolis +67gpt
our military is strong to everyone except the KELTs (avg)

Pasargadae
1 of 3 cat shots hit
vSword vrs 3/4 vSpear - we die flawlessly
vSword vrs 3/4 vSpear - we die inflicting 1hp of damage - spear promos now 3/5 elite
vSword vrs 3/5 eSpear - we redline but win - razing Pasardae (gain 3 workers)

IBT - 2 PER galley drop off an archer each next to Persepolis

Turn 2 - 470AD
Carthage horse => horse

Gordium
2 of 3 cat shots hit -1 hp on 2 rSpears
eSword vrs 2/3 rSpear - flawless vic - no promo
4/5 eSword vrs 2/3 rSpear - flawless vic - no promo - raze Gordium (gain 1 worker)

take out the 2 archers by Persepolis
PER refuses to talk to our envoy
build a colony on the fur E NE of Pers.

IBT - GRK & VIK sign a peace treaty / our injured Hoplite is killed by a Bhorse SE of Rome / a PER spear leaves Arbela / BAB learn FUED - hopefully someone else will get it very soon

Turn 3 - 480AD
Leptis Magna horse => horse
Hippo horse => horse
build a colony on the horses
have to hire a clown in Rome (44% can't forget our oppression) - still at +10spt for 3turn horses
fire the sci in Pers. make him a revenuer - no research at all

PER will talk now and will give Bactra, 52 gold and 11gpt for peace - I agree - since it will take 2 turns to get troops there
nothing to sell in Bactra so I abandon it, there were 3 IND spears outside of it

IBT - quiet

Turn 4 - 490AD
Rome horse => horse
Carthage horse => horse
Hippo riots why?? - no WW is showing and it was fine last turn (7happy 5 sad - now 5 happy 1content 6 sad) - hire a taxman - no change in lux rate
I wonder if abandoning Bactra had any affect on Hippo?
troops moves

IBT - Bhorse dies attacking our other Hoplite SE of Rome - I diverted 1 of our swords that direction last turn

Turn 5 - 500AD
Leptis Magna horse => horse
forest chop by Pers completed last turn - rush harbor there saving almost 100 gold (1 knight upgrade)
fire taxman in Rome left the clown
IND has 7 troops stationed outside of Antioch

IBT - a few of the IND troops move away from the border / another Bhorse rides up SE of Rome

Turn 6 - 510AD
Persepolis harbor => barracks (to upgrade our horses later)
Carthage horse => horse
Hippo horse => horse

Fun Time:
IND 11 cities - IND & PER still only know each other - was going to gift IND Monarchy but it will only cause a 1 turn anarchy
Issue DOW on IND

Hyderabad
4 cat shots miss
vSword vrs rSpear - we die flawlessly
vSword vrs rSpear - we win flawlessly - sink a galley and it autoraze

Antioch
guess what - 4 cat shots miss
vSword vrs rSpear - we win flawlessly - no promos
vSword vrs rSpear - we win flawlessly - no promos & raze Antioch

move troops next to Arbela

IBT - PER demands we leave I refuse and issue DOW / IND sword kills 1 of our swords, they advance other units / GRK learn Theology no trade with BAB they are still at war

Turn 7 - 520AD
Rome horse => horse / joined 3 workers to Rome up lux to 20% now getting 15 spt (2turn horses) - costing us 21gpt though - Rome grows on its own next turn and I hope to be able to turn lux back to 10%
Leptis Magna horse => horse
sword takes out the Bhorse & Hoplite takes out the Bcamp SE of Rome

Open air IND troops
2 of 4 cat shots hit eSword down to 3/5
vSword takes out the eSword - no promo - there is another sword and 2 archers NE of where our sword advanced to
vSword vrs rSword - we redline their sword but die / our vHorse kills the sword
vSword vrs rSword - we redline but kill their sword - no promo
vSword vrs rSword - we win flawlessly - no promo and capture their eqWorker
vSword vrs rSword - we win down 2 hp - no promos
vSword vrs rArcher - we win flawlessly - no promo
vSword vrs rArcher - we win down 1hp - no promo - see 2 more rSwords on hill S SW of Madras

Arbela
vHorse vrs rSpear - we redline and retreat inflicting 1hp of damage
vHorse vrs rSpear - we win down 1hp - no promo
vHorse vrs rSpear - we win down 2hp - no promo
vSword vrs 2/3 rSpear - we redline the spear but die
out of troops leaving a redlined rSpear there

IBT - we kill 1 IND sword, but lose 2 of our swords, our vHorse promos to elite but is redlined / no trades of FEUD or THEO yet

Turn 8 - 530AD
Carthage horse => horse
Hippo horse => horse
switch Rome to Marketplace - could rush for 340 gold but right now we have enough gold to upgrade 16 horse to knights - save our money - besides Hippo now needs a 20% lux rate too

Arbela
vHorse vrs rSpear - we redline and win - no promo & raze Arbela eliminating the PER

Open air IND troops
all 4 cat shot hit reducing 2 IND swords to 1hp each
vSword vrs 1/3 rSword - we win down 1 hp
vSword vrs 1/3 rSword - we win flawlessly & promos to elite
vHorse vrs 2/3 rSword - we redline but win
try to heal a bunch of wounded troops

IBT - bunch of IND troop moves around Madras - no attacks on us / BAB traded FEUD we should get it next turn / GRK still holding THEO tight

Turn 9 - 540AD
Leptis Magna horse => horse
rush marketplace in Rome for 292 gold - we will need to start researching next turn

kill an IND rSpear - there are 6 more IND troops (mostly swords) around Madras
a second group of a settler, 2 spears and a sword are E E NE of Jaipur
advance our troops on Jaipur

IBT - the sword in the settler group attacks and retreats our horse / a Bwarrior & a Bhorse come out of Bcamp due S of Rome

Turn 10 - 550AD
we learn FEUD from Great Library - set to CHIV in 13 turns at 40% and -4gpt / lux to 10%
Rome marketplace => horse (back to 3 turn horses but faster research)
Carthage horse => horse
Hippo horse => horse

kill IND spear & settler with eSword - no promo
kill IND spear and sword but lose 2 swords in the process

Jaipur
2 of 4 cat shots hit - reduce the 2 rSpear to 2/3
eSword vrs 2/3 rSpear - we die redlining the spear who promos 2/4
vSword vrs 2/3 rSpear - we redline but win
eSword vrs 2/4 vSpear - we redline but win - no promo and autoraze Jaipur
vSword kills a rArcher that was outside of Jaipur

Scores: F421 /J557

Notes to next player
1) we have had a steady stream of IND units around Madras - still more there
2) I brought the 2 galleys from the East side of our island around to the west side to help with transport
3) we now have 17 horses but I have not built any more swords
4) I've been positioning our worker in various spots trying to light up our whole island - barbs are a pain
5) IND will take peace but give no cities and GRK has not traded THEO yet
6) we have enough gold to upgrade about 12 horses before we buy the barracks in Persepolis

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam04_07.jpg

Excellent work by both :goodjob:
I think perhaps single sci research after Chiv, in case we can get Leo's?

Once we get our horse count up we should disband our Cats. It was a failed experiment in this game, sorry guys :sad:
I need to do more research on what level of AI we have to be facing before arty pays off. Perhaps it would have been better in sgotm3... [pimp]

I agree we should keep cities as is now. Only one thing: jump palace to Persepolis if we get a leader?

Edit: we've got 31 turns left to beat team Offa. That seems a little hard, but we should have a pretty decent score compared to them b/c of our early wonders so let's keep on with the gung-ho towards conquest and :hammer: team Offa's green laurel score ;)

Looking good Gator. :goodjob:

A lot of redlining versus Spears?? But, we've got the Horses coming on line now, good work.

I've got it and will try to play this evening to keep it moving. Now for questions??

1. If we get a leader, do we jump the palace to Persepolis?

2. Are we going to mess with disconnecting Iron when we get Chivalry? ;)

3. Do we want to time the Golden Age for Chivalry completion? That means sending some Spartan Hoplites over to Indian continent, I assume, and getting them positioned where they can be attacked, or attack?? :mischief:

4. What do we want to do about the other civs so far away, keep them warring? :cool: Isn't it better to allow them to beat each other up before we visit them, hopefully keeping their research slower as well?

OK, check in later. Capt., good luck researching the Cats. I am looking forward to disbanding them!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well done Gator. :goodjob:
Hippo riots why?? - no WW is showing and it was fine last turn (7happy 5 sad - now 5 happy 1content 6 sad) It must be some reverse ww, not sure why, did the Persians ever declare on us? :confused:
I experienced the same reverse ww when I started the war against Persia. :crazyeye:

@leif : 1 & 2 : Yes, 3 : asap imho. 4 : Yes, but we should go visit them soon.

1. If we get a leader, do we jump the palace to Persepolis?

General question not an opposition, how does the palace jump affect the 4 mainland cities? I don't do many palace jumps in my games.

2. Are we going to mess with disconnecting Iron when we get Chivalry?

Not sure that we need to disconnect iron. If it takes the 13 turns to learn CHIV (w/o using our GA) we should be able to build 22 more horses in that time. Currently we only have gold to upgrade 12-13 horses to knights and we could be sitting on nearly 30 horses by then.

3. Do we want to time the Golden Age for Chivalry completion? That means sending some Spartan Hoplites over to Indian continent, I assume, and getting them positioned where they can be attacked, or attack??

If we do not disconnect our iron this would allow us to crank out knights in 2-3 turns per city, depending on effect of the palace jump. The other option is trigger it now to speed up research on CHIV but with only 5 cities not sure how much it will help.

4. What do we want to do about the other civs so far away, keep them warring? :cool: Isn't it better to allow them to beat each other up before we visit them, hopefully keeping their research slower as well?

Except for GRK & BAB the others are only at war with us, so no active fighting. I think we should stir it up over there as much as possible.

Good work Gator, we're well on our way!

zamint3
DJMGator13 - Just played
leif erikson UP
Capt Buttkick - On deck
AlanH

I think we are close to having enough troops on the Indian continent now to finish the job there. We need to start planning for a fast transition to war on the other continent. It seems to me we need to either move our galley fleet east, or create a new one. Either way, we should slow down on shipping horses to India. Thoughts?

Re. tranferring the Palace to Persepolis, I don't see us moving any more cities over there, so I think that would be exploitative, as we'd have all our other cities closer to the FP than to the Palace. Is there any pressing reason to move the Palace, other than to exploit the rank corruption bug?

Note: Lighting up the continent with workers will not stop the barbs from spawning, as it requires combat troops to do that. I had a camp appear right next to a scout in the gurrent gotm. However, I guess we'll get an early warning if we see them arrive.

I think we are close to having enough troops on the Indian continent now to finish the job there. We need to start planning for a fast transition to war on the other continent. It seems to me we need to either move our galley fleet east, or create a new one. Either way, we should slow down on shipping horses to India. Thoughts?
I haven't time to pull up the save, but it looks like the best way to get to tje other continent is to go east from our home island? That means we need to build another small fleet to begin ferrying Horses over. The Galleys near Persepolis will be needed once India is toast. When I last posted, I hadn't thought of going right away, but it does seem the best idea. Any preference for taking on the civs there?
Re. tranferring the Palace to Persepolis, I don't see us moving any more cities over there, so I think that would be exploitative, as we'd have all our other cities closer to the FP than to the Palace. Is there any pressing reason to move the Palace, other than to exploit the rank corruption bug?
Thinking about this some more, very dangerous, will we need to have a flip proof city on the Greek continent area with a Barracks? If so, perhaps we should not send our Palace to Persepolis but wait until we get to the next continent. Of course, if we are concerned about the rank exploit bug now... :mischief: However, I'm not sure how else, that far from home, we can guarantee we keep what we take, and need.

On Golden Age, I think I'm hearing to get it started ASAP. Thanks and will not begin for 8 or so hours, so I'm all ears. ;)

Note: Lighting up the continent with workers will not stop the barbs from spawning, as it requires combat troops to do that. I had a camp appear right next to a scout in the gurrent gotm. However, I guess we'll get an early warning if we see them arrive.

Bad news :( , I did not know it took combat troops to do that. We should probably move them back because the barbs have been coming at us with horses and we probably wont have any warning against horses. All barb activity has come from S & SE of Rome.

I agree about enough troops on the Indian coninent especially when you consider that we will be upgrading them to knights before that war is over. I'm hoping we are facing the IND one and only counterattack with the open field battles south of Madras. That should make it easier to wrap them up when it subsides.

A barb only comes at you from a camp. Except during an end of era uprising, the camp appears with a single barb - normally a warrior. Then it takes a little while before a second barb appears. I don't think they'll move out of a camp to attack if there's only one barb in residence. I suppose it's possible to have one appear right under the feet of a worker, in which case I guess he'd die immediately. However, I think we'll normally have time to extract the worker from danger, and send our troops to accept another 25 gold donation towards our next knight upgrade, and/or an elite promo :)

Currently they have nothing better to do, so let them be street lamps :) .

Unfortunately, I have not landed any units in the New World yet. It took a long time to get the Galleys around to the east side to transport them. I had to decide what to do and, after loading the horsemen, changed my mind and unloaded them, sending them to Rome for upgrade to Knights prior to shipping them for combat.

Turn log follows:
Pre-flight – Turn 170 – 550 AD
As we do not need the Barracks in Persepolis right away, I decide there is no need to use the Gold to rush it, yet.
We have 6 Galleys. I think we should move 4 of them from the east coast to the West and build 2 more. The 2 Galleys near Persepolis can be used to ferry Knights over later.
Checking the Diplomacy screen there are a few options available to us. Looking at the Power section of the Histograph, I see that the most powerful Civs in the far continent are Greece, Keltoi and Germans. I want these guys at war with one another.
The Keltoi will be insulted by a Peace Deal and they’re not getting anything for it, so forget that.
The Ottomans will sign for Peace, an ROP, 28 Gold and an Alliance versus the Greeks, so we agree.
We sign an ROP with the Vikings for 6 Gold. He would ally against anyone we want, but he has only 1 city left, so we don’t ask for an alliance at this time.
Everything else is looking good, so I press enter.

IBT
Lots of troops around Madras heading towards us. A group of 5 Reg. Swords and a Reg. Spear move beside us, 2 south of Madras.
Leptis Magna Horse => Horse

Turn 171 – 560AD
Cat E and NE and bombards stack – takes 1 HP from a Reg. Spear.
Cat E and NE and bombards stack – fails.
Cat E and NE and bombards stack – fails.
Cat E and NE and bombards stack – takes 1 HP from Reg. Sword. 50%, not bad Capt.
Begin moving 4 Galleys from the west coast to the east coast.
Begin attack on units south of Madras;
Vet Sword attacks Reg. Sword – wins losing 2 HP.
Vet Horse attacks Reg. Sword – wins redlining.
Vet Horse attacks Reg. Sword – wins losing 1 Hp and promotes.
Vet Horse attacks Reg. Sword – Horse dies redlining Sword.
Vet Sword attacks Reg. Spear (2/3) – wins losing 2 HP.
Vet Horse attacks Reg. Sword (2/3) – wins without loss.
Vet Horse attacks Reg. redlined Sword – loses 2 HP, advances and I move him back into stack.

IBT
The Indians request an audience. They want peace, will give up one city and some gold. I decide they need a little more punishment first.
Carthage Horse => Horse.
Hippo Horse => Horse.
We are informed the Indians are building Sun Tzu’s Art of War, that’s good, one less city producing units.
We are informed that the Ottomans are building Sun Tzu’s as well.

Turn 172 – 570 AD
South of Madras, Cats bomb 2 Reg. Swords that moved in. Three out of 4 shots hit, WOW!!:cool:
Vet Horse attacks Reg. Sword (2/3) – wins losing 2 HP and promotes to Elite.
Vet Horse attacks redlined Sword – wins losing 2 HP.
Our Reg. Army attacks a Barb Camp south of Rome and we earn 25 Gold with no loss.
Use worker to build a colony on Iron, fast way to get a road built on mountains.
Use worker to build a colony on Horses.

IBT
Indian units move towards Kolhapur because I threaten it with a Horse.
Rome Horse => Horse.
Leptis Magna Horse => Galley.

Turn 173 – 580 AD
Vet Horse attacks Reg. Spear in Kolhapur – Spear dies, redlining Horse. Retreat Horse to stack with Cats.
Continue moving horses south for embarkation.
Heal units around India.

IBT
Carthage Horse => Horse.
Hippo Horse => Horse.

Turn 174 – 590 AD
South of Kolhaur, Cats attack an Indian Reg. Spear and 2 of 4 hit.
Vet Horse attacks redlined Spear – wins without loss.

IBT
We are informed that Greece and Babylon have signed a peace agreement.
Indians counterattack. A Reg. Sword attacks our Vet Sword and dies, we lose 1 HP.
A Reg. Sword attacks our Vet Sword and kills him, losing 1 HP.
A Reg. Sword attacks our Vet Horse on a hill and dies, redlining our Horse.
A Barb Galley (redlined) attacks our Galley and dies, our Galley loses 1 HP and then promotes.
Leptis Magna Galley => Galley.

Turn 175 – 600 AD
Attacking Madras.
Vet Horse attacks Reg. Spear – retreats without inflicting any damage.
Vet Horse attacks Reg. Spear – retreats inflicting 1 HP.
Vet Horse attacks Reg. Spear (second one) – retreats inflicting 1 HP.
Elite Horse attacks Reg. Spear (2/3) – defeats him losing 2 HP.
Elite Horse attacks Reg. Spear (2/3) – defeats him and we capture Madras. Nothing of use in Madras so we abandon the city, capturing 3 workers.
We have to hire an entertainer in Hippo.
We have to hire a Tax Man in Rome.
We are now seeing Pikes in India.
Increase Lux Tax to 20% to keep Rome and Hippo in line.
Check on peace deal with India, will still give only 1 city, sorry, but WW is setting in.

IBT
A Settler and a Spear exit Delhi.
A Barb Galley attacks our Galleys and dies, no damage to us.
Rome Horse => Horse.
Carthage Horse => Horse.
Hippo Horse => Horse.


Turn 176 – 610 AD
We are now losing 43 GPT due to Lux Tax and Unit Maintenance. I decide to disband 4 Cats. Now we are down to 35 GPT with 8 turns of research to Knights.
Attack Kolhapar.
Use 4 Cats to bombard – 3 failed and we killed some of Kolhapur’s citizens. :cry:
Decide to wait a turn as there are not enough units for success.
A Barb Camp shows up north of Persepolis with 2 Barb Warriors in it. I move a Horse to attack and warrior dies without loss.
Wake Vet Horse (2/4) and move to attack Barb Camp – Mis-clicked!!!! :mad:
Wake Elite Horse (3/5) and attack Barb Camp – destroy Barb Camp and earn 25 Gold, lose 1 HP.

IBT
Greece and Ottomans have signed a peace treaty. The Ottomans declare war on us!! :eek:
A strange unit, a Persian Mercenary, attacks our Vet Sword near Karachi and kills us, losing 1 HP.
A Reg. Sword attacks our Elite Horse on a mountain and kills him, redlining.
Leptis Magna Galley => Horse.
The Greeks are building Sistine Chapel.

Turn 177 – 620 AD
Attacking Kolhapur.
4 Cats bombard – 1 shot hits wounding a Reg. Pike. :(
Vet Sword attacks Reg. Pike (2/3) – kills him without loss.
Vet Sword attacks Reg. Spear – kills him losing 2 HP.
Elite Sword attacks Vet Sword (2/4) – kills him without loss (or leader) and we auto-raze Kolhapur, capturing 7 Gold and 1 worker.
Load Horses onto Galleys for trip to new continent.
East of Delhi, a Vet Sword attacks a Reg. Spear escorting a Settler and defeats him losing 1 HP and capturing 2 workers.
Near Karachi a Vet Horse attacks a Persian Mercenary (2/3) and the Horse dies, redlining the Mercenary until he promotes to Vet.
Vet Horse attacks the Persian Mercenary and kills him without loss.
To cut down the WW, I decide to cut a peace deal with India for Karachi and 96 Gold. Not surprisingly, he will not take accept an ROP.
This allows us to drop Lux Slider to 0% and increase research to 50%, Chivalry in 4 turns as we lose 10 GPT.
MM Rome and Hippo.
There is nothing in Karachi of value, so it is abandoned.

IBT
Ghandi comes and complains we have troops in his territory, that’s too bad. Back to war!!
A group of units exits Delhi, 2 Reg Spears and a Settler, heading south towards us??
We learn Theology from, The Great Library.
All our cities revolt. :cry: WW came right back. Should have waited a turn I guess?? Lx Slider back to 10%. Keep research slider at 50%, Chivalry in 3 turns.

Turn 178 – 630 AD
Disband the remaining 4 Cats.
In looking at the civs we are going after on the next continent, they all have Feudalism except the Germans. With Chivalry in 3 turns, I decide to unload the Galleys, move the Horses to Rome for upgrade before we sail for the new continent, I hope that is a good choice. It will save us time later, I think, and keep us more productive because we may not need to have a city there. So, unload Galleys, fortify them, and head for Rome. :crazyeye:
South of Delhi.
Vet Horse attacks Reg. Spear – kills him losing 1 HP.
Vet Horse attacks Reg. Spear – Horse dies inflicting 1 HP.
Vet Horse attacks Reg. Spear (2/3) – kills him, redlining, promoting to Elite and capturing 2 workers.
Begin moving some horses back to Persepolis for upgrade to Knights.

IBT
A Barb Colony pops up near our horse colony and they destroy it and a worker.
A Barb Galley attacks our Galleys near Rome and dies without causing any damage.
Carthage Horse => Horse.
Leptis Magna Horse => Horse.
Hippo Horse => Horse.
The Ottomans are building Sistine Chapel.

Turn 179 – 640 AD
Around Persepolis, attack Barbs with Horseman, capture their camp for 25 Gold with no losses.
Cash rush Barracks in Persepolis for 112 Gold.

IBT
Persepolis Barracks => Galley.
Rome Horse => Horse.

Turn 180 – 650 AD
Attack Delhi.
Vet Horse attacks Reg. Pike – we lose a HP to a Cat and kill the Pike with no further loss.
Vet Horse attacks a Reg. Spear – we lose a HP to a Cat and kill the Spear without further loss, promote to Elite. :p
Vet Horse attacks Reg. Spear – kill Spear without loss and capture Delhi, with 2 Cats (??). Sell a Granary for 7 Gold and abandon the city.
Disband the 2 Cats.
Re-establish Horse colony.
Pillage India’s last source of horses.
Wake Horseman in Persepolis and move to attack another Barb Camp, destroy both Barb Warriors and earn 25 Gold.

After Action Report
Chivalry is due in 1 turn. The major stack of Horseman is in Rome with a stack of Galleys to the east to take them to war. There are also some Horsemen in Persepolis ready for upgrade, 2 of which had to be moved to take out a Barb Camp, buut you should be able to move them back and upgrade them.

There has been a lot of Barb activity near Persepolis lately. The Barb Camps pop up with 2 warriors and, when they are on roads, they will travel and take out colonies. I had a case where I Barb Warrior took out a colony and then killed a worker in 1 turn. You may be able to finish India with mostly horses, that is why I didn’t move more back. Most Indian cities have 1 Pike and a Spear or 2.

We have 1061 Gold in the treasury and are losing 29 GPT. Our score is 439 Firaxis and we are currently third behind India and Greece. Somehow, the Greeks managed to turn the tables on us. When they signed peace deals, they got the other civs to declare on us. We are at war with India, Germany, Keltoi, Ottomans and Greece. They are currently at peace with one another and I didn’t change this because of the cost, either in gold or giving up Engineering they demanded.

Sorry Capt, the Cats are gone. I couldn’t take the rejection of missed shots any longer. Our Army consists of 27 Horseman, 9 Swords, 8 Galleys, 2 Archers and an Army. Our Military Advisor says we are strong versus all the other civs. The Horses are ready for upgrade, although I’m sure you’ll run out of cash, sorry. Good luck and good hunting, there will be plenty of it for you. Please feel free to change whatever you need to for victory!! :D
<< The Save >> (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Xteam_SG004_AD0650_01.SAV)

Well done leif. Good progress :goodjob:

You were absolutely right not to ship units to the other continent until they are upgraded. My concern was to ensure that we were not fixated on moving units to India, and that we moved the galleys to where we were going to need them. You achieved that.

The fastest way to get where we're going now is to get the golden age under way to increase income, and to kill the Indians to remove war weariness. Making peace with India achieves a faster victory by removing another city, but you only reduce war weariness by staying at peace for lots of turns. One or two turns won't do it.

zamint3
DJMGator13
leif erikson - Just played
Capt Buttkick UP
AlanH - On deck

Somehow, the Greeks managed to turn the tables on us. When they signed peace deals, they got the other civs to declare on us. We are at war with India, Germany, Keltoi, Ottomans and Greece.

They had a monoploy on THEO and probably traded it to get the MA vrs us.

The WW kicked in after redeclaring war - can't stop the first city but I've used the Big Picture to stop the all the others from rioting. I failed to do this in a GOTM a few games ago and I had 23 cities riot in 1 turn.

Did I misread it or have we not kicked off GA yet? If not take a hoplite with you, so we can start mass producing our Knights. And I'd shut off research completely after CHIV (nothing like stating the obvious).

@Capt - good luck and have fun razing with our new knights

Did I misread it or have we not kicked off GA yet? If not take a hoplite with you, so we can start mass producing our Knights. And I'd shut off research completely after CHIV (nothing like stating the obvious).
No, we haven't got the GA yet!! :blush: Sorry, I messed up the timing because I thought I could get a S. Hoplite over to the other continent with the Horsemen, so he could provide some intial protection on the landings. However, I didn't get any horses over there so screwed it up. :cry:

I think you're right about Theology as we got it soon after that. The problem now is that I couldn't get anyone over there to declare war without a serious infusion of cash, or a tech that I didn't want to give up. So, that whole continent is basically peaceful and trading, not good!!

Good luck Capt. :D

EDIT -

You were absolutely right not to ship units to the other continent until they are upgraded. My concern was to ensure that we were not fixated on moving units to India, and that we moved the galleys to where we were going to need them. You achieved that.
Thanks Alan, I wrestled with the need for speed versus the requirement to capture a city, disband Hippo, and the score hit we would take by doing all that. :crazyeye:
BTW - I think I noticed that our colonies seem to add to score, squares controlled? For max score, we should probably get Persepolis to grow and use our captured Indian and Persian workers to build colonies wherever possible, although I am not sure of this.

So you disbanded the cats. :eek: :lol:

We are at war with India, Germany, Keltoi, Ottomans and Greece. They are currently at peace with one another and I didn’t change this because of the cost, either in gold or giving up Engineering they demanded. Keltoi, Ottomans and Germany declared on us right?
So we should attack in that order and leave the Greeks last. this way we'll have some reverse ww for a while.

Babylon will sign ROP and a MA (with two of the three) for Theology, this might be a good idea. The Vikings will sign against everybody except Babylon, they are backwards and it wouldn't hurt. Where are they, sitting on a galley?

Good luck Capt, and get that Golden Age started. ;)

Sgotm4 650 - 750 A.D.

Preflight - MM a few of the cities for -28 gpt and Chiv next turn. Rome has -1 food so we really need to take out India soon... I think we should have had a courthouse in Rome by now??? Anyway, too late now.
IBT: Reg Indian Azap from Lahore kills a 3/4 sword and promotes to 3/4. Chivalry --> Invention at 0 sci, +70 gpt.
Turn 1 - 660 A.D. Dispersed barbs in former PER. Upgrade 13 Horse to Knight for 960 gold, in Rome.
Turn 2 - 670 A.D. Move 11 Knights and a Spartan in to galleys on our Eastern shores. Move out with the galley. Upgrade a Horse to Knight in Rome. Some more MM'ing and 20% Lux for faster Knight builds.
IBT: Loose a sword to an Indian reg Azap, redlining it. Leptis Knight --> Knight. Hippo Knight --> Knight.
Turn 3 - 680 A.D. Kill the Indian Azap with an elite horse, no luck this time. Unload forces outside Nidaros. Kill reg pike in Lahore with 4/4 --> 2/4 sword. Elite horse retreats w/o denting reg spear in Lahore. Vet horse redlines, but finishes the spear. We raze Lahore. Move forces towards Bombay.
IBT: Carth Knight --> Knight.
Turn 4 - 690 A.D. Disperse a barb camp on each continent. Upgrade horse in Rome. Kill vet pike in Nidaros with 4/4 --> 3/5 Knight. Loose 3 Knights taking Nidaros, perhaps it was better defended b/c of the Colossus... Raze it. Loose another Knight on a Eurosword :( Not a good turn in Keltica. Move towards Bombay.
IBT: Rome Knight --> Knight.
Turn 5 - 700 A.D. Loose a vet sword and a vet horse against Bombay. 5/5 --> 2/5 elite horse takes it, and we raze. Move forces in Keltica to a hill to heal.
IBT: Archer attacks our Spartan in Keltica, we loose a couple of HPs, but we've got our GA [party] Leptis Knight --> Knight.
Turn 6 - 710 A.D. Disperse two barb camps, one on each continent. 10% lux. Give Republic to Germany for peace. Give him Feudalism for alliance against Greeks and Ottos.
IBT: Defend succesfully with injured units against 2 elite euroswords (killed) and 1 vet eurosword (retreated). Rome Knight --> Knight. Hippo Knight --> Knight.
Turn 7 - 720 A.D. 20% lux b/c of WW. Unload 7 more Knights in Keltoi lands.
IBT: Keltoi loose another elite eurosword, promoting one of our vet Knights. Their combination army (decribed in my previous writeup) retreats one of our Knights. Loose a vet sword to a reg Azap in India. Leptis Knight --> Knight.
Turn 8 - 730 A.D. Retreat 2 Knights and loose a 3rd against the Keltoi army. Kill the Keltoi army. We're starting to really feel the sting of WW, 30% lux. Disperse a barb camp.
IBT: Rome Courthouse --> Knight.
Turn 9 - 740 A.D. Disperse 2 barb camps. Hurry Knight in Persepolis (needed b/c hte barbs are getting too uppy. I wish I had disconnected iron already :( ). Declare on Babs and capture a settler.
IBT: Persepolis Knight --> Knight. Carth Knight --> Knight. Leptis Knight --> Knight. Hippo Knight --> Knight.
Turn 10 - 750 A.D. Disperse a barb camp. I start on the last Indian city fearing it'll be well defended, but it falls after 2 spears!!! :lol: We have destroyed the fragile Indians :D Disperse another barb camp now that I've freed up some forces... Loose a vet Knight to a 1/4 eurosword. Next Knight kills it.

Summary: India is no more. We've established a foothold on the main continent and there is now some fighting amongst the other civs. We should be pretty well poised to strike the heartlands of the Keltoi next. I think we should disconnect iron and start the disconnect-upgrade-connect scheme we did so well last sgotm. We should upgrade 4 vet horses to Knights in Persepolis, sail them to Pleibos Nexia and take island for island with this task squad. We've got 19 Knights and 9 horses. We've got 417 gold and +138 gpt per turn. Carth is a bit of a headache MM-wise, iron is now disconnected but we have to wait for the barb to sack our colony before we can build horses. I'd welcome all possible solutions to this problem if there are any easy ways to solve it... All homeland cities, including Rome, should produce a horse every turn after that.

Sorry, Zamint. I missed your head ups and the deals were gone when I checked :sad: Anyway: I won't be seeing this again, which is just as well cause I haven't been very foused this month. Sorry guys. I'll try to do better next month...
And leif: no GLs either :( :lol:

And leif: no GLs either :( :lol:
I simply refuse to believe it!! :lol: :lol: :lol: You're holding out on me.... :eek:

Nice work, you really took off from where I left you, excellent! :goodjob:

Good luck Alan!! Bowl 'em over! :hammer: :ar15:

:eek: I'm up :eek:

Good work Captain :thumbsup: Sounds like a heavy session with war on two continents plus the barbs to contend with.

zamint3 - On deck
DJMGator13
leif erikson
Capt Buttkick- Just played
AlanH UP

I'll have a look. I may be back for advice :hmm:

Leptis is making a knight every 2 turns

Rome, Carth & Hippo a knight every 3 turns

If we disconnect iron Leptis, Carth & Hippo can make 1 horse a turn, but we are only generating enough gold to upgrade 3 horse every 2 turns (139gpt). I think we will be overloaded with horse and not enough gold to upgrade them.

We want speed right now. I think I'd leave the iron hooked up, spend our money upgrading the horses in former IND territory, rush another galley there and get those troops into the action.

Carthage and Hippo are producing 33 and 30 shields per turn respectively. So they can be short rushed to produce knights every 2 turns instead of every 3 turns, at a cost of 68 gold every 2 turns. Start them on Persian Mercs. After turn 1 rush them to 40 shields and switch them to Knights to finish on turn 2.

So I agree I'll just keep the iron hooked up, and reconnect the one at Rome for insurance.

Have we been chaining the ships? It looks as if they are set up to do it.

I guess we upgrade the Indian forces in Persepolis and ship them west. We can get a ROP with Germany right now, and those galleys can reach Germany in 3 or 4 turns. So they can use Germany as a base for a pincer attack when our Keltic forces reach Babs and the Ottomans.

We also have to remember that Heidelberg is a one tile island that we need to extort from the Germans, and look out for other examples. And we have to find and eliminate the Vikings. Let's hope they have a city somewhere and are not floating about in a longboat in the fog. We may have to rely on leif to track them down - they're his ancestors after all :mischief:

I'll have a crack at my turn set tomorrow. It's too late to start now. Looks like a rather straightforward slugfest. :D

So I agree I'll just keep the iron hooked up, and reconnect the one at Rome for insurance.
I agree, this is the better alternative atm. If we play beyond the GA, we may have to relook the situation.
I guess we upgrade the Indian forces in Persepolis and ship them west. We can get a ROP with Germany right now, and those galleys can reach Germany in 3 or 4 turns. So they can use Germany as a base for a pincer attack when our Keltic forces reach Babs and the Ottomans.
The only other consideration is that we leave enough units to keep the barbs from becoming a scourge. They were really a PITA during the end of my turnset.
We may have to rely on leif to track them down - they're his ancestors after all :mischief:
I'll have a crack at my turn set tomorrow. It's too late to start now. Looks like a rather straightforward slugfest. :D
Sorry, can't turn in my own flesh and blood, not even for a better score!! :mischief: Of course, I am willing to consider any offer you might make?? :lol: :lol: :lol: I think Gold is thicker than water, or something like that?? :eek:

Good luck with the slugfest, cause that's what it'll be, and in our favor for once, except with respect to time! :rolleyes: ;)

...we have to find and eliminate the Vikings. Let's hope they have a city somewhere and are not floating about in a longboat in the fog. We may have to rely on leif to track them down - they're his ancestors after all :mischief:
Pity leif won't comply cause I can't help you. My ancestors were Spanish :D (at least some). I can trace two different lines back to survivors of the Spanish Armada that were routed in 1588. Only thing is my ancestors never saw battle. They didn't navigate all that well :crazyeye: Maybe that's where I got my temper from... and my poor sense of direction :lol:
Maybe zamint can help find the lost Vikings ;)

I feel like I do nothing but apologize this month :lol:
I didn't even think of shortrushing :( :blush:
Well, a colony in India can be rebuilt next turn so we'll have iron for sure, but still :( b/c of the decreased production in Rome...

Edit: :thumbsup: good luck, Alan.

Summary
We've destroyed 3 AI cities and arranged for the disposal of the Vikings. We have 31 knights, most of them on enemy territory. We still have a long way to go.

750 AD Turn 190 Preflight
Advance the knights near Bjoergvin to attack positions.
I expect the barbs to raid our iron colony next turn, so move a worker nearer to be ready to rebuild it.
I propose to stop building roads in neutral territory on bith continents, and withdraw from the northern part of the Indian continent and pillage the roads as I retreat. This will reduce the mobility of the barbs and reduce the space we have to defend.
Switch Persepolis to Galley to rush next turn.

IBT Germany lands a settler pair in the north of the Keltic territory. The barb destroys our iron colony and kills a worker. Didn't realise they could do two lots of damage in one interturn :hmm:

760 AD Turn 191
We have 5 knights outside Bjoergvin, so I decide to try an attack.
4/4 knight -> 4/4 pike retreats, no damage
4/4 knight -> 4/4 pike dies, -1 hp
4/4 knight -> 3/3 pike dies, promotes pike to 3/4
I decide the RNG is not with me on this attempt and call it a day.

Move workers towards the two iron sources to reconnect both. Move a hoplite out of Leptis to pillage some roads north west of Rome.

Horses kill the barb camp north of the old iron colony, and kill a roaming barb. I then realise I can't short rush without iron!

IBT Kelts move a settler pair north out of Bjoergvin.
Rome knight, Leptis knight

770 AD Turn 192
Rebuild the iron colony. Hurry galley at Persepolis. persepolis is now at pop 5. Looking at the financial situation I decide it may be worth trying to get Rome up to 30 spt by increasing lux tax and getting WLTKD going. So I increase teh slider to 6.0.4 for 64 gpt, which also gets Persepolis fully working.

4/4 knight attacks Kelt Eurro sword escorting settler, and dies, promotes sword to 4/5. This really isn't my day! A second 4/4 knight kills the Sword, redlining, and captures the settler.

Upgrade 2 horses in Persepolis and move healed knights into position at Bjoergvin.

IBT A Babylonian galley (I thought it was German :smoke: ) sinks our galley.
The Germans build Cologne in the north of Keltidc lands.
A Babylonian galley appears near Bjoergvin from the east.
Persepolis completes galley
Carthage and Hippo complete knights.
WLTKD breaks out all over neoCarthage.

780 AD Turn 193
Yesss! Rome is producing 35 spt with 5 waste. Short rush a knight for 40 gold.

@Bjoergvin: 4/4 knight kills 4/4 pike flawlessly
4/4 knight dies vs. 4/4 pike -> 2/4
4/4 knight retreats from 3/3 pike inflicts no damage
4/4 knight kills 3/3 pike -> 2/4
4/4 knight kills 5/5 Eurosword -> 2/4
5/5 knight kills 4/4 Eurosword -> 2/5
We're out of units and there's a 2/4 pike in residence :(

Move healed knights into position.

Horses dispose of barb camp for 25 gold

2 galleys from Persepolis sail west carrying 4 knights.

IBT Babylon lands near Bjoergvin
Bars coming in from teh north in India
Rome and Leptis produce knights.

790 AD Turn 194
@Bjoergvin: 4/4 knight retreats vs 4/4 pike -> 3/4
4/4 knight kills 4/4 pike -> 1/4
4/4 knight kills 3/4 pike -> 1/4 and captures city.

I decide to keep captured cities until the end of turn in case they help with advancing troops towards the next city. We can also sell off any improvements we find. In this case I can also do some sick ship chaing to unload two knights into Bjoergvin from a galley and move them towards the next city.

5 knights move south into the fog, over the mountains, and find Mohacs, defended by a vet spear. There's no road, so we move some workers towards the mountain as we'll need this as our main supply line.

2/4 knight is all I have available to take out the Babylon settler escort pike. He redlines, but succeeds! 2 more workers for the mountain road.

Horses disperse barb camp in old Persia. They're springing up every interturn, and each has two units in residence :eek: Never mind, the 25 gold per turn is keeping the coffers full as we run high lux tax and short rush knights.

Short rushed Hippo and Carthage for 32 and 28 gold respectively.

We sell the barracks and harbour in Bjoergvin for 15 gold and abandon the city.

Galleys from Persepolis sail west to German border and see a Viking galley. I guess that's where leif's ancestor is holed up.

As I hit F1 to check the cities one last time the game crashed :( I replayed the turn exactly to my notes, and the outcomes were identical :whew:

From here on I saved before looking at any adviser screen, and this paid off because I had another F1 crash immediately after replaying this turn, and it happened again later in the turn set.

IBT Barb appears from northern India.
Carthage and Hippo produce knights.

800 AD Turn 195
@Mohacs: 4/4 knight retreats from 4.4 spear, no damage
4/4 knight kills 4/4 spear -> 2/4
4/4 knight kills 33 spear -> 2/4 and captures city.

Move troops south through Mohacs, sell barracks fo r5 gold and abandon it.

Save :rolleyes: short rush Rome's knight for 40 gold.

F4: I decide the safest way to remove the Vikings from the game is to let the other civs do it, so I give the Vikings Republic, Monarchy and Currency as a poisoned chalice in exchange for alliances against Greece, Babylon, the Kelts and the Ottomans. One of those ought to be able to deal with him.

IBT The northern barb dies vs our 2/4 sword on a hill, redlining him.
WLTKD ends in Rome - WW must have increased a notch. So we don't complete the knight there :(
Leptis completes knight.

810 AD Turn 196
Short rush knights in Carthage and Hippo for 24 and 32 gold. We need an entertainer in Pesepolis now.

A knight scouts south in Keltoi to find the next city in the fog. We can see a big city on grass, probably the capital, defended by a vet pike.

IBT Germany is annoyed about our galleys. I decide I'll agree a RoP with Bismark.
Rome, Carthage and Hippo complete knights.
WLTKD ends in Hippo.

820 AD Turn 197
Disperse a barb camp in Persia again. Move troops.

IBT Babylonian settler lands again. They really want that bit of space in old Keltoi (previously Vikings)
Germany and Ottomans make peace.
Barb galley redlines our galley and sinks.
Leptis completes knight

830 AD Turn 198
Land 4 kinghts on mountain near Ashur (Babylon).
4/4 knight kills Babylon settler escort.
Advance troops towards the big Kelt city, and scout west to find Stockholm on a promontory.
I decide to try WLTKD again. The 500 gold in the treasury isn't useful for anything else, and if nothing else it'll get our score up a bit. At sliders 5.0.5 we still make +19 gpt.

IBT
A Kelt knight from Stockholm kills our scouting knight.
A Babylon Azap Infantry dies vs our invading knights. One knight loses 2 hp.
The Greeks have destroyed the Vikings. Nice when something works out :D
Carthage produces a Persian Mercenary! Forgot to change it over :smoke: :cry:

840 AD Turn 199
The army kills a barb south of Rome, sees a camp.

@ The big Kelt city:
4/4 knight kills 4/4 pike -> 1/4
4/4 knight retreats from 3/3 pike -> 2/3
4/4 knight dies vs 3/3 pike -> 2/3
4/4 knight kills 3/3 pike -> 4/5 promo
5/5 knight kills 2/3 pike -> 2/5
4/4 knight kills 2/3 pike -> 1/4 and takes Entremont and the Oracle.

@Ashur:
4/4 knight retreats from 3/3 pike -> 2/3
4/4 knight kills 3/3 bowman -> 2/4
4/4 knight dies vs 4/4 Azap Inf. -> 2/4

Sell market and barracks in Enremont for 17 gold, and abandon it and the Oracle.

IBT Greece and Germany make peace. Greeks land a settler pair on old Keltoi.
Barbs attack our troops and die.
Rome, Leptis and Hippo produce knights.

850 AD Turn 200
Army destroys barb camp.
Upgrade 2 horses in Persepolis. Land 2 more knight at Ashur, retreat 2 wounded knights to galley.

@Stockholm:
4/4 knight dies vs 4/4 pike -> 2/4
4/4 knight dies vs 4/4 pike -> 2/5 promo
4/4 knight kills 3/3 pike -> 3/4
4/4 knight kills 2/4 pike -> 3/4

Didn't take enough knights along - the 2/5 pike is still in residence ..

@Ashur:
4/4 knight kills 3/3 pike -> 1/4
4/4 knight retreats from 4/4 azap inf. -> 2/4
Retreat 2 wounded knights to galley.

Short rush Carthage knight for 24 gold.

After action report.
It's hard work! We've made a big dent in Keltoi, but the force from Persepolis wasn't really big enough to tackle Ashur, as we needed to keep some troops back to control the barbs.

I'm thinking we need to get the galleys from Persepolis into the narrow sea between Babylon and Keltoi. They'll help with troop movement as we move down the continent. I've no idea what shape this continent is, nd whether Keltoi connects to Greece and/or Ottomans ....

I screwed up twice on short rushing - once when war weariness stopped Rome's WLTKD and once because I produced a Persan Merc instead of switching Carthage over to a knight. However, we now have 31 knights, so we ought to be able to some damage. We could disband the Merc in Rome for extra shields to cut the cost or time for a short rushed knight there.

The cash situation looks good. I've been short rushing, and running high lux levels, but barb gold, plus gold from captured cities, seems to be keeping the treasury topped up OK. We only have three more horses we can upgrade.

Keltoi will talk and are prepared to give two cities for peace. I recommend we take them up on it to speed up the conquest and then finish them off. We have a RoP with Germany, available for rape at any time in the next 15 turns.

Over to the next better player. Here's a map with some pointers.

zamint3 UP
DJMGator13 - On deck
leif erikson
Capt Buttkick
AlanH- Just played

Good luck zamint3 :thumbsup:

We still have a long way to go.I believe you. :(

Didn't realise they could do two lots of damage in one interturn :hmm:I didn't know either.

I decide it may be worth trying to get Rome up to 30 spt by increasing lux tax and getting WLTKD going. Nice. :goodjob:

Well I guess we just have to push on, I'll play tomorrow morning. :cool:

On reflection, it may be worth taking Stockholm out now, as there are probably enough troops and only one defender at the moment. That may give you one less Kelt city to kill eventually. All the attackers outside Stockhold are down a hit point, though, so it depends how lucky you feel :D

Originally Posted by AlanH
Keltoi will talk and are prepared to give two cities for peace. I recommend we take them up on it to speed up the conquest and then finish them off.I think I'll go for this one. :)

Babylon and Ottomans will sign a peace treaty and ROP, any idea where our war weariness comes from?

Most of it will be from Keltoi. We've been parked on their territory for over ten turns. Kill Keltoi and you'll see a significant improvement.

We lost two or three units to Babylon, one of them on Babylon territory when attacking Ashur, so there may be a tiny bit from them but I wouldn't hold your breath for WW to reduce if you make peace with them. I don't think we've touched the Ottomans or their territory yet.

I suggest we just ride with it. We haven't much left to spend cash on, and we have 500-plus in the bank. We can afford to run a deficit to keep the lux tax up for a few turns if necessary.

Only 34 cities to go.

If we can't kill them all quick enough we could continue the conquest until we get GER down to the 1 tile island city, surround it and then go after space? Or are we hoping that our early 20K attempt plus the conquest will give us the overall highest Jason score?

Is it really war weariness, which is your problem :confused:
Or could it be something else?
Just couldn't help to comment on one of the small problems my old team mates have. :blush:
Just ignore it.
Oh now I've given away that team Offa already finished ;) .

Is it really war weariness, which is your problem :confused:
Or could it be something else?

You're right to query it, but Rome has 31% WW and our other three cities are at 37%, and the increase at one point during my turn set is what caused the problem with my production schedule in Rome.
Rome and Persepolis also have unhappy people because of whipping - 15% and 45% respectively. Rome's whip pain went down a bit in my turn set.

Just couldn't help to comment on one of the small problems my old team mates have. :blush:
Just ignore it.One of the *many* small problems, but we can't ignore them :eek:

Oh now I've given away that team Offa already finished ;) .
We guessed that. We're just about to overtake your date ;).

Is it really war weariness, which is your problem :confused:
Or could it be something else?
We definitely have ww, I just wonder where it comes from. IIRC we only declared on the Greeks and we haven't seen any action there yet. The other wars have not been running for that long! :confused:

Oh now I've given away that team Offa already finished And I guess it was not a loss. :lol:

I think klarius might be hinting at the unhappiness that arrives from disbanding cities. Anyone know how this works out?

Reverse war weariness only lasts for a little while. If you lose enough units and spend enough time in enemy territory and stay at war for long enough then eventually reverse ww dies, and real WW overtakes it.

WW did go away after signing peace with Keltoi.

I uploaded the save.

Turnlog in 1½ hour, I hope. Have to work :rolleyes:

Turnlog SGotm 4, zamint3
850 AD Preflight
Sign a peace treaty with Keltoi, we get 7gpt + 110g + Richborough + Stockholm, and you were right Alan, all ww is gone!
Slider down to 30% lux gaining 92 gpt, and still WLTK day in all cities except Persepolis.
Sell a harbour and a barracks and abandon the two cities.
Establish an embassy with the Keltoi, Lugdunum is defended by 4 pikes, 2 spears and a knight.
Sign ROP with the Keltoi.
Sign a peace treaty and ROP with Babylon, we get 7gpt + 7g.
Sign an alliance with Babylon against Ottomans for 133g, and an alliance agaist the Greeks for 22g.
Now the Greek would like to make peace, but no not now.

860 AD Turn 1 :
We raze the Greek city just build, loosing one knight.
Disperse one barb camp.

870 AD Turn 2 :
Disperse one barb camp
The Keltoi live on an island.

880 AD Turn 3 :
Disperse one barb camp.

IBT:
We learn Invention from the Keltoi and the Ottomans.

890 AD Turn 4 :
DOW on the Keltoi, we take Lugdunum redlining 10 knights, they had upgraded the spears so we faced 1 elite, 4 vet and 1 reg pike. Our knights retreated nicely, I don’t think we lost a single one! :D
WW is back slider up to 40% to ensure WLTK day in Hippo and Rome.

900 AD Turn 5 :
Keltoi is history, our 3 remaining healed knights take out 2 reg pikes in their last city. :)
WW is gone again.

IBT :
Our Golden Age ends. :(
Persepolis riots. :(

910 AD Turn 6 :
Disperse 2 barb camps.
A lot of knights healing.

920 AD Turn 7 :
Set lux to 10% gaining 60 gpt.
Disperse 1 barb camp.

930 AD Turn 8 :
Moving troops to Babylon.

940 AD Turn 9 :
-

950 AD Turn 10 :

We have a lot of troops in Babylon. I have positioned troops to attack the Ottomans soon.
Babylon are sending quite a few troops (knights and longbows) against Ottomans and/or the Greeks, so I thought we should wait a while before taking them out. Maybe we can ally the Ottomans against the Greek after taking their two cities.

It will be very slow progress, there are several cities on hills, and the Ottomans have the Great wall. :cool:

Shortrushing worked very nicely during our GA. :goodjob:

Sorry, I've been out looking for my lost relatives, but I see Alan found them and :whipped: Had to go away for a day, and tomorrow too.

NIce work Alan and Zamint!! :goodjob:

Have we decided that the WW was from the Kelts because we declared on them? :confused: Zamint says it went away after they were dispensed with. :goodjob:

Looks like the rest of the game is pounding them into submission while holding our rebelious cities together, Persepolis and Rome. Can we starve out the natives and only allow sweet Carthaginians? :evil: Oh, you said Hippo was rebelling as well.

Now that the GA is done, should we try iron disconnection? It looks like we have enough Gold. It would be nice to get a leader and Leo's. With Gator up, anything is possible, he's in good with the RNG God... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Good luck Gator!! :thumbsup: :salute:

@leif
Read this article and count your losses and defensive combats.
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_war_weariness.shtml

But you also have more inherited pop-rush unhappiness than was necessary IMO.

But you also have more inherited pop-rush unhappiness than was necessary IMO.
That's it. We've inherited whipping. Thanks, klarius :goodjob: You've got the article on that as well? :)

@leif
Read this article and count your losses and defensive combats.
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_war_weariness.shtml

But you also have more inherited pop-rush unhappiness than was necessary IMO.

Very interesting Klarius. :) Thanks for looking after your old mates and congrats on, what looks like, a very nice finish date. :goodjob: Can't wait to read about it!! :cool:

I think it's too late to worry about the whip unhappiness. We'd have to starve Rome down to a single citizen and then build it up again. That would take 24 turns during which production would be half its current value. It will die away anyway, and Persepolis is never going to amount to much unless we drag this game out for ever. I'm not sure why it's an issue. As I said, we've nothing better to spend the cash on so why not keep the population happy and increase our score?

My policy fwiw is always to starve foreigners in any captured city down to 1, even after I've made peace or disposed of the civ. No one else seems to do that, but I'm sure it helps later with unhappiness. However, I've read somewhere that whip unhappiness soaks into the fabric of the city, not just the foreign citizens. So if we had wanted to minimise it in Rome we should have razed and replaced it or just colonised the Roman iron. We couldn't do that with Persepolis because we'd have lost the Lighthouse.

I agree Alan, I don't think we should do anything about the whip issue.
I think we should explore the concept some though. What I think happened when I disbandoned the 3 Roman cities after I made the FP peace deal, is that Leptis inherited the whip unhappiness of those cities.
I checked the city before the peace deal and it was aok. However, after the peace deal, Leptis had some (cannot remember the percentage) unhappiness due to the cruelty we had bore down on them. I was very confused by this cause I sure hadn't rushed anything in Leptis.

I think the answer is that whipped unhappiness jumps to another city when disbandoning. How and where? I don't know.

What I think happened when I disbandoned the 3 Roman cities after I made the FP peace deal, is that Leptis inherited the whip unhappiness of those cities..
That's because there was a Roman in Leptis. We had joined a Roman worker to Leptis by accident some time before. I don't think whip unhappiness infects a native city from another one.

I don't think whip unhappiness infects a native city from another one.

Indeed it does.
As soon as you abandon a city having it, it jumps to your next city. Foreign laborers have nothing to do with that.

Interesting. As I normally play to domination rather than conquest, I haven't had that experience. The fact remains that the only cities that have any whip unhappiness now are our captured ones.

Interest stuff on abandoning. I thought that was what was happening in my last turnset. Now we know.

I got it and will play later today. I'll look at cutting off the iron or seeing if we can keep short rushing for a while. If we get a GL, would an army be better than trying to get it back to mainland and building Leo's? Can create the Army in a captured town before abandoning it.

I'll check back before I play.

I'm no fan of fast unit armies in Classic Civ3, so I'm not the best person to ask. The main reason is that you can only throw all three units in the army at one target,and once they've been wounded they take forever to heal, because only one unit heals at a time. With no barracks in reach I suspect an army would be use-once-and-then-forget-it for us. A leader would take forever to get back to build Leo's as well. Leo's in combination with iron disconnect would certainly give us a chance to build knights faster. Then the issue would be getting them across the water. We'd probably need more galleys. Another question as I haven't looked at the save since the last turn set - do we need a lot more knights? They are going to take longer and longer to get to the fronts, and there will come a point where we can't get more there fast enough to make a difference.

But you also have more inherited pop-rush unhappiness than was necessary IMO.You mean if we had just razed the cities we would not inherit the unhappiness from whipping.

As soon as you abandon a city having it, it jumps to your next city.Does it accumulate with every city you abandon?

I don't think disconnecting the iron is worth the effort.
I shortrushed a Hoplite in Carthage, I think, and then a knight in 2 turns.

Do we need more knights? I think yes! We'll start loosing some soon, and this won't be over for a while. :cool:

I've been thinking about this whip inheritance and I still need to be convinced. I'll be interested in any article or evidence that demonstrates that it affects towns with only native citizens.

@Alan
Maybe it would help if you just try it. :p
Take one of your older saves and abandon every city with foreigners. You should see the unhappiness appear in one of your native towns.
You may have to change laborer assignments before the unhappy people tell you their true problem.

Hehe, you think our competition needs some help Klarius ? :D :p

(this will be my only post here, not comming to take over your thread :devil2: )

Hehe, you think our competition needs some help Klarius ?
Trust me, we need all the help we can get, wherever it comes from :p .... if only to get our spam count up :D

Take one of your older saves and abandon every city with foreigners. You should see the unhappiness appear in one of your native towns. Will that be just one city, and if, any clues to which one? :confused:

I assume this is only if you have a captured city with whip unhappiness? I don't recall ever seeing this efffect in SGOTM3. We were razing cities like crazy there, and some of them must have had whipped citizens?

You are suppose to be able to see war weariness using Civ3MT utility but I think it is an editor so don't use it until we are done playing.

BTW, whipping unhappiness and cruel oppression was happening to me in COTM5 when I was in a Monarchy. I razed a few cities and then sued for peace. When I redeclared war the stop creul oppression percentage was pretty high, over 30%.

I assume this is only if you have a captured city with whip unhappiness? I don't recall ever seeing this efffect in SGOTM3. We were razing cities like crazy there, and some of them must have had whipped citizens?
In SGOTM03, we had a lot more lux's that we claimed. We also had a lot more cities. When it transfers, does it go to a city or might it be spread out amongst the cities. With such a small number of cities, perhaps it manifests itself more. :confused:

I thought that whip unhappiness only lasted 10 turns, unless the city was whipped multiple times I suppose.
EDIT - I did a CivFanatics site search and the effects of whipping last 20 turns according to one of the threads. I can find nothing regarding transferring whip unhappiness.

OK Gator, good luck then!! :mischief:

As I said earlier, I'll be leaving for a week of maxin' and relaxin' tomorrow :cool:
I trust you'll have this wrapped up before I return :)

Good luck, Gator :thumbsup:

zamint3- Just played
DJMGator13 UP
leif erikson - On deck
Capt Buttkick - Away for a week.
AlanH

Ooops! Just realised I didn't post a roster after zamint3 played :blush:

Good luck Gator, and have a good time Captain. The way this is going it'll take more than a week to wrap it up, so don't assume you're off the hook yet.

As I said earlier, I'll be leaving for a week of maxin' and relaxin' tomorrow :cool:
I trust you'll have this wrapped up before I return :)
Have a good time Capt., hope the time at Capt.'s Cabin is relaxing!! :lol: :lol: Just keep your eyes open for a Japanese Galley with a couple of Samurai off the coast, wouldn't want any unpleasant surprises.... :rolleyes: :D

Have a good time Capt., hope the time at Capt.'s Cabin is relaxing!! :lol: :lol: Just keep your eyes open for a Japanese Galley with a couple of Samurai off the coast, wouldn't want any unpleasant surprises.... :rolleyes: :D
:rotfl:
Let's hope the Samurais don't reach the sunny shores of Mediterreanean France while I'm there :cool:

@Alan
Maybe it would help if you just try it. :p
Take one of your older saves and abandon every city with foreigners. You should see the unhappiness appear in one of your native towns.
You may have to change laborer assignments before the unhappy people tell you their true problem.
I thought it was our own laborer's unhappyness we inherited. Like when we keep a city, the citizens are suddenly Carth, then we abandon it and the game jumps our own laborer's unhappyness to another of our cities.

I thought it was our own laborer's unhappyness we inherited. Like when we keep a city, the citizens are suddenly Carth, then we abandon it and the game jumps our own laborer's unhappyness to another of our cities.
This is an interesting thought. I'd forgotten that when we get cities in a peace deal, they become ours, in this case Carthaginians. If they keep their unhappiness, then I suppose it could be transfered. :eek:

EDIT - Look who is at the top of the GOTM 35, a Gold Medal for Zamint!! :goodjob: :beer: :band: :hatsoff: :clap:

Summary
A lot of CARNAGE
BAB are gone
Razed a mess of cities along with several Wonders
Got 2 Great Leaders and thanks to a peace deal with the Greeks we have 2 Knight armies

Preturn - 950AD
rush the galley in Persepolis

GRK at war with BAB & us
OTTO at war with BAB & us
GER not at war with anyone / lets change that
Since GER could obtain Invention from any of the other 3 civs, I decide to trade it to them for MA vrs OTTO & GRK - they agree and issue the DOWs

IBT - GRK & OTTO learn EDUC / stack of 4 GRK rSwords by Iznik

Turn1 - 960AD
Persep galley => knight
Rome knight => merc
Carthage knight => merc
Hippo knight => merc

a Bgalley has blocked in our new galley in Persepolis - attack it we win
take out the 4 GRK swords without losing a knight (2 knights promo to elite)

Battle for Aydin (OTTO)
vKnight vrs vPike - we win down 2hps - no promos
vKnight vrs rPike - we retreat inflicting no damage
vKnight vrs rPike - we retreat inflicting no damage
vKnight vrs rPike - we redline and then take 3 straight points off the pike killing it - no promo
eKnight vrs rPike - we redline and retreat inflict 1 hp of damage
vKnight vrs vSpear - we redline inflicting 1hp of damage
vKnight vrs 2/3 rPike - we die inflicting 1hp - Pike promos to 2/4 vet
vKnight vrs 3/4 vSpear - we die flawlessly
vKnight vrs 2/4 vSpear - we die inflicting 1hp - Spear promos to 2/5 elite
vKnight vrs 2/4 vPike - we die flawlessly
vKnight vrs 2/4 vPike - we redline and win - no promo
eKnight vrs 2/5 eSpear - we redline, win and capture city - - - and get a visit from Mago the Great -

Mago for some reason cannot be converted to an army - then I remember you must have 4 cities for each army - so I set ROME to a knight and disband our barb killing army & get a 1 turn knight and create a new Army with Mago- sell the barracks and abandon Aydin and it's gems

IBT - a knight defends off an OTTO longbow attack / GRK land a settler pair in former KELT lands / a Bcamp pops up and immediately kills one of our captured workers / we learn EDUC from the GLib rendering it obsolete

Turn 2 - 970AD
ROME knight => knight - only making 19spt so short rushing a merc will only give 59 shield
Hippo change to knight (same story 19spt)
Carthage change to knight (making 21 spt)

disperse the Bcamp - it popped up with 2 barbs and 1 of them killed the worker on the same turn it popped up

IBT - barbs kill several workers in former KELT lands / GRK moves its settler

Turn 3 - 980AD
Leptis knight => knight
rush knight in Carthage for 112 gold
rush knight in Hippo for 128 gold
not very effective, but there is nothing worth 50 shields that we can rush
unhooking iron will still take 2 turns for horse than 80 gold to upgrade

IBT - lost a worker to barbs

Turn 4 - 990AD
Carthage knight => knight
Hippo knight => knight
rush knight in Rome for 128gold (Leptis not rushed cost 184gold - almost the cost of a 3turn rush)

divert a knight from loading into a galley to go after barbs S of Rome

IBT - only counterattack continues to be the barbs - killed another slave and redlined a knight, now facing Bhorses as well / GRK found a city in middle of all the silks

Turn 5 - 1000AD
Rome knight => knight
no rushes this turn
take out Bcamp SW of Rome / kill a Bhorse and Bcamp on Pers. island

we have about 35 troops in BAB lands - time to get rid of some more cities
move stack of troops next to Ellipi before issuing DOW

Ellipi
Army vrs vPike - we win
vKnight vrs vPike - we redline inflicting 1hp of damage
vKnight vrs rPike - we win down 1hp
vKnight vrs 3/4 vPike - we win & capture city
sell the barracks

Nineveh
vKnight vrs rPike - we win down 1hp
vKnight vrs rPike - we die inflicting 2hp of damage pike promos to 2/4 vet
vKnight vrs rPike - we win down 1hp
eKnight vrs 2/4 vPike we win down 3hps & capture city

Babylon
vKnight vrs vPike - we retreat inflict no damage
vKnight vrs vPike - we retreat inflict no damage
vKnight vrs vPike - we win down 1 hp - promo to elite
vKnight vrs vPike - we redline and win
vKnight vrs vPike - we die but redline them
vKnight vrs rPike - we die inflicting 1hp of damage
vKnight vrs 2/3 rPike - we win flawlessly
eKnight vrs 1/4 vPike we win & capture city with Hanging Gardens
sell market and barracks

Ashur
vKnight vrs rBowman - we win and capture city
use an injured knight to capture a BAB worker blocking way to UR

Ur
vKnight vrs rPike - we win
vKnight vrs rSpear - retreats
4/5 eKnight vrs rSpear - we win and capture city - no promo
sell barracks, market & harbor

War went very well, but my plan to get us 2 armies failed :( - none of our elites promo
Abandon all 5 captured cities - BAB have 1 city left

IBT - GER immediately send a settler into former BAB land / OTTO land a settler pair near their old city site with the gems / GRK want to talk (12 cities) decline peace offer

Turn 6 - 1010AD
Leptis knight => knight
rush knight in Hippo (128 gold)
rush knight in Carthage (112gold)
to keep all citizens working I increase lux to 20%

damn GER galley parked on my landing spot - our galley can not unload this turn
kill OTTO settler pair
lose 1 knight capturing/razing Akkad - destroying the BABs
knight dies attacking Herakl? (GRK city) which magically has 2 hoplites in it 1 turn after being settled
lotta of troops need healing

IBT - ROP with GER expires (they will accept 226 gold to renew it) - I do not renew it / Barbs continue to be a pain - I've been disbanding workers instead of having them killed by barbs / OTTO complete Sun Tzu

Turn 7 - 1020AD
Carthage knight => knight
Hippo knight => knight
do not rush Rome knight - save money to rush Hippo & Cart since they have further to travel
heal more troops - position some to go after Iznik (OTTO) & possibly Frankfurt (GER)

IBT - GER demands we leave, I really don't want to leave cities behind our troops so I declare war / OTTO attacks 2 of our knights, killing 1 retreating the other / watch GRK attack GER city instead of attacking us & OTTO moves a few men into GER area / GRK capture Cologne from GER (this turns out to be very very important)

Turn 8 - 1030AD
rush a knight in Hippo for 204gold (a 3turn rush)
rush a knight in Persepolis for 72gold

Hannover (GER)
vKnight vrs vPike - we retreat inflicting no damage
3/4 strength army vrs vPike - we win redline down to 2/14hp - city autorazes

Herakleia (GRK)
vKnight vrs vHoplite - we win down 1hp
vMerc vrs rHoplite - we win down 2 hp and autoraze city

Frankfurt (GER)
vKnight vrs vSpear - we win down 2hp
vKnight vrs 2/3 rPike (damage after the GRK attack) - we win down 2hp & capture city
sell barracks
kill the remaining GRK merc with a eKnight and we get a visit from Hanno

Iznik (OTTO)
vKnight vrs vPike - we retreat inflict 1hp of damage
vKnight vrs vPike - we redline and win
vKnight vrs 3/4 vPike - we redline and win and capture city
sell barracks
move troops before abandoning city to keep OTTO border pushed back

sign a peace deal with GRK and gain Cologne giving us 8 cities :banana: / convert Hanno to an Army
abandon cities

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam04_08.jpg

IBT - OTTO attacks our knights, they lose 2 units and retreat one of our knights

Turn 9 - 1040AD
Persepolis knight => knight
Rome knight => knight
Leptis knight => knight
Hippo knight => knight

Sogut (OTTO)
vKnight vrs rPike - we win down 1hp promos to elite
vKnight vrs rPike - we retreat inflicting no damage
vKnight vrs rPike - we win down 2hp and capture city with Sun Tzu & Great Wall
sell marketplace & abandon city

disperse a Bcamp in former KELT lands (should have left it alone)

IBT - not much / new Bcamp pops up near Persepolis / OTTO settled a new Sogut where Cologne was

Turn 10 - 1050AD
kill an injured OTTO eKnight but lose a vKnight in the process
pillage GER iron source
I accidentally move an empty galley
disperse the Bcamp near Persepolis
healed a bunch of troops


Notes to next player
1) may want to rush the knight in Persepolis so that you can send 2 in the galley there
2) Only disperse Bcamps within our core or near Persepolis - until I got rid of the one in turn 9 I had not been bothered much by barbs the last couple of turns unlike the early turns where they were a pain
3) I'd only rush in Hippo and Persepolis from now on
4) we need to keep pushing hard to minimize the number of settlers the other civ send out
5) GER is at war with all 3 civs and we need to attack GRK again
6) lux has been at 20% for a while - haven't had much problem even after razing some Wonder cities

Scores: F513 J679

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam04_09.jpg

Congrats Zamit :king: on GOTM35

I'll have to get my list of questions together and pick your brian for some pointers.

Nice job on the Babs Gator! :goodjob: Looks like it was a hard fought turnset. :eek:

The problem with Conquest seems to be keeping the unsettled lands free of intruders, it diverts troops away from where you need them.

OK, I've got it and will have a look later, planning to play in 10 to 12 hours. Sounds like we have to figure out a way to produce knights more efficiently from reading the turnlog. Sounds like it'll be a round of extreme combat!! :mischief:

Wow! That was beautiful, Gator! :goodjob:

zamint3 - Congratulations on your Gold Medal :thumbsup:
DJMGator13 - Just played
leif erikson UP - and got it
Capt Buttkick - Away for a week.
AlanH - On deck

Onward and upward, Leif!

The problem with Conquest seems to be keeping the unsettled lands free of intruders, it diverts troops away from where you need them.



The good thing is that they come by galley so only 1 defender with them. So you dont have to leave too many behind to deal with them. I actually took 2 knights back after the BABs campaign to go after the GRK 2 hoplite city.

We also need to concentrate on those island cities. Could probably pick up some of them with peace deals when we start hammering the GRK and GER.