SGOTM4 - Game Thread.

Hi everyone, and welcome to your game thread.

Here is the start position.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4.jpg

Note: EVERYONE has to install the correct resource graphics whether or not they have played this scenario or GOTM before. If you haven't done it yet, you had better get a wriggle on.

The saves will be available once the timelock has been released tonight (19th September).

Here are some links you might find useful.

The original GOTM28 Announcement. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/gotm28_india.shtml)
The Draft Constitution (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1733966&postcount=61)
The GOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=71788)
SGOTM4 - Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=100194)
Download latest Save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php)
Upload a Save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm.php)

This Months' sponsored variant is 5 City Challenge the rules for which are as follows.

1. You may not end a turn with more than 5 cities.

Team Leaders: It would be a good idea to PM your team mates to get them all checked in here as soon as is possible. ;)

Good luck everyone! :)

Nice to see the thread up and running! :thumbsup:

Welcome to DJMGator13, can we call you Gator? Welcome back Zamint, I'm glad you were able to rejoin us. And, as always, greetings to Capt and Alan.

Looks like an interesting challenge this month. As I have never played, as Alan has said, "A real 5CC", I have been reading Charis' contribution to the War Academy, linked here (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_5cc.shtml) , and thought it quite helpful.

Seems like the easiest path to victory lies with Diplomatic Victory and the hardest Conquest. I assume that the laurels will remain the same so that means we might want to look at the swiftest victory date for the victory condition we choose. I was thinking that 20K Culture would give us a target that is the farthest out on the horizon and that we could modify to diplo or spaceship should we find ourselves in trouble along the way and need to bail without blowing off the variant.

I think once we get our course laid out, we can begin to navigate it through discussions of intial settler location and how we can best set up our small civ to meet our goals.

BTW - I have never played a 20K culture game through either. :eek: Capt, we may have to return to our builder roots to get through this one. I'm not sure I can stifle my trigger finger for that long!! :lol: :lol:
Edit - Not sure that we should! :mischief:

Yes Gator is fine. I've justed finished playing Jumpmaster 1B with Alan and we are currently pursuing a diety space attempt in our sequel. Look forward to playing this team.

I have never played a 5CC either, so not sure which victory path to suggest. This game was originally a Monarch level game, can we keep the tech pace fast enough to pursue a nonmilitary type victory thst could win a laurel?

I've read the War Academy article, does anyone know a good 5CC SG to study?

I have never played a 5CC either, so not sure which victory path to suggest. This game was originally a Monarch level game, can we keep the tech pace fast enough to pursue a nonmilitary type victory thst could win a laurel?

I think trading will be important to us. I'm not sure we can support a military of a size needed to achieve conquest without seriously putting on a financial squeeze in the economy. Seems like we will have to be smart in using allies and surrogates to help keep the largest civs in check. Should be interesting.

Did you play GOTM 28? I'm not sure how much spoiler info to discuss, although I am quite sure that M-B has changed the game enough to keep us guessing. I don't want to ruin anything as I did play this GOTM.

Yes I played GOTM28 (although not very well) I think that was actually my first GOTM. I'm sure MB will have shook up our neighbors and moved resources to new locations.

If it is still set up with Persia as our nearest neighbor and the only civ sharing our continent, I think it is going to be more difficult. This will lessen our trade opportunities and require us to deal with X Man as early as possible. :eek: iirc, he had iron and we didn't, so that means Immortals versus Archers. :eek: :eek: So I think we will have to get some warriors out to check on our surroundings and see where we are and who we have for neighbors.

Other than that, a piece of cake. :lol: :lol: :lol:

We could always just build 1 or 2 cities and then a bunch of warriors and go after him right from the start, before he can get his iron hooked up. If he respawns would he change continents or would he respawn on ours?

EDIT: Just tested my setup and I have the correct files, I see sheep.

Hi :wavey: I've just surfaced from a lengthy session building the Ottoman empire in gotm35 and found the world had moved on :hmm:

Hello again Lief and Captain. Welcome to the old firm, Gator. How's TS Jeanne shaping up? And welcome back, Zamint3. We missed you in our last game. Can I assume Leif has PM'd everyone?

5CC is so not the way I play normally that it just has to be a great opportunity to think outside the box. No FP, no mass population expansion phase, and presumably no point trying to keep the starting continent to ourselves. We can and should spread ourselves out a bit, I guess, though I assume RCP is still worth doing to keep all the cities at rank 1?

GOTM28 was my best placing to date, just outside the top 10. But it was a domination victory, which is off the end of the difficulty spectrum for a 5CC. I do recall some of the features of the map. We'll want to grow our cities big, so lux trading will be important, and we'll have to drive the tech pace for a fast date. I guess rivers would help a lot, and I can't remember if we had a lot or not. Also, a lot depends on the traits of our civ, which I somehow doubt will be the Indians :rolleyes:.

Currently Jeanne doesn't look like it will affect Florida, finally one will miss us. But they expect it to stall and when that happens there is no telling which way it will go when it starts moving again. They normally move either W or N because of the rotation. It's been one crazy month.

Double Post Alert (we need a new code for this)

I was just checking out CMM1, it was a Diety 5CC Conquest SG. Some good discusion in the beginning, concerning city placement and tile usage. They went for maxing shields with their city locations. Here's a link (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=92437&page=1&pp=20) if anyone wants it. They also went to war early to keep the tech pace inline.

Hi :wavey: I've just surfaced from a lengthy session building the Ottoman empire in gotm35 and found the world had moved on :hmm:
Hope it is going well. I've been crashing on COTM04, not my best but I want to finish so I can work on this and get GOTM 35 started.
Hello again Lief and Captain. Welcome to the old firm, Gator. How's TS Jeanne shaping up? And welcome back, Zamint3. We missed you in our last game. Can I assume Leif has PM'd everyone?
Yes I did. Hope you don't mind. Saw the thread come up and got so excited I had to tell everyone. :D
5CC is so not the way I play normally that it just has to be a great opportunity to think outside the box. No FP, no mass population expansion phase, and presumably no point trying to keep the starting continent to ourselves. We can and should spread ourselves out a bit, I guess, though I assume RCP is still worth doing to keep all the cities at rank 1?
I'm with you on this, seems like a foreign concept to only build 5 cities. :crazyeye: I am not so sure about the starting continent though. Charis' article indicates that the worst thing that can happen is having the monster AI civ as your neighbor and, if this is at all like GOTM 28, X Man will be close at hand and will need to be dealt with. That is why I suggested earlier that we probably ought to get out and scout about to see where we are and with whom!! :mischief:

I think RCP is a possibility although I haven't figured out yet the amount of corruption 5 cities will have if they are not in RCP. Perhaps Zamint can run one of his simulations and give us some thoughts.
GOTM28 was my best placing to date, just outside the top 10. But it was a domination victory, which is off the end of the difficulty spectrum for a 5CC. I do recall some of the features of the map. We'll want to grow our cities big, so lux trading will be important, and we'll have to drive the tech pace for a fast date. I guess rivers would help a lot, and I can't remember if we had a lot or not. Also, a lot depends on the traits of our civ, which I somehow doubt will be the Indians :rolleyes:.
Our cities will need to be big to drive the tech pace, won't they? This is the other issue with figuring out where we are. In the original game we were on one continent with the X Man and the other civs were off on other land masses, iirc. This will restrict our trading opportunities until we can get galleys to go find the other civs so we can trade techs, etc. Charis also talks about the power of colonies and protecting the resources you grab with them. I wouldn't put that sword away too quickly either as we may be declaring some wars in order to gain some allies to keep our rivals from getting too far ahead in the tech area.

I think our first major decision is whether to try for a peaceful victory condition or war, which means conquest. If we go peaceful we have several choices as the game plays out, Diplo, Spaceship or 20K. While I have never tried a 20K, using Alan's guide, it might be worth the attempt. I have read that with only 5 cities the MM is crucial and the turns are not as long. I lifted this from the Jason calculator for GOTM 28:
Conquest.........1200AD
Cultural 20k......1760AD
Cultural 100k....1555AD
Diplomatic........1010AD
Domination.........970AD
Space Race......1330AD
Max Score..........7483

Looks like with a 20K attempt we have the chance to bail at 1010 AD for diplo or 1330AD for Space. But that is only my $0.02 to get a discussion started.

See you in the morning, time for some :sleep:

Hi everybody. :salute:
It feels good to be back. :)
So we're playing 5cc again! :lol:
Originally Posted by AlanH
..a lot depends on the traits of our civ, which I somehow doubt will be the Indians .That's what the puzzle from Gotm3 was about! :p
Take a look at the save. :)
btw : my civilopedia says nothing about our tribe, did I do something wrong? Testgame runs OK!

Originally Posted by AlanH
No FPWe did it last time, I don't think we need more than 8 cities to build FP on a standard map. :cool:

Originally Posted by leif erikson
Perhaps Zamint can run one of his simulations and give us some thoughtsWell, I have submitted Cotm4 and I will finish Gotm35 today, :D , so maybe. ;)

Hi everybody. :salute:

btw : my civilopedia says nothing about our tribe, did I do something wrong? Testgame runs OK!



This has me a little confused. For 1.29f you will be playing exactly the same setup as the original game, except that the resources have been re-mapped so people don't have to keep swapping the resources over. The Civilopedia should be immaculate - since it was crafted by Zagnut and cracker, and has not been interfered with by me.

Unfortunately I will not be able to investigate until late this evening.

So we're playing 5cc again! :lol:
That's what the puzzle from Gotm3 was about! :p
Take a look at the save. :)
btw : my civilopedia says nothing about our tribe, did I do something wrong? Testgame runs OK!
Took a look at the save and have the same problem. I assume from our leader name that we are NeoCarthaginians, but the info screen in the Civlopedia is blank for that tribe?? :confused:

In addition to figuring out where we are and who are neighbors are, I guess we had better identify who we are. Nothing like a good mystery game :crazyeye: Then we can decide what we think we want to do for victory condition, oh my, so many decisions, so little time! :p :rolleyes: :lol:

The new 'pedia file was distributed in the gotm21 installer for Windows, and updated for gotm22. For the record the gotm23 installer for Mac contains the updated verion. Here (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Civilopedia.txt.zip)'s a copy of my file. Unzip it into your \Text\ folder.

While you get it sorted out, here's a screenshot of the civilopedia page for neoCarthage that I have in my GOTM setup

Then we can decide what we think we want to do for victory condition, oh my, so many decisions, so little time! :p :rolleyes: :lol:
What's your rush? :cool: We have two months at least. Let's not take a run at this. A 5cc is way off my beaten track, I'd like to think about it a bit.

We're commercial/industrious, we get Alphabet and Masonry as starters - two very tradable techs. Our UU is a pike with attitude - 2/3/1, costs 30 shields and needs Bronze Working, upgrades to musketman.

So. We don't need many workers - max 10 industrious critters to service our 5 cities, and Pottery/granary is not very high priority. Bronze Working gets us straight to a unit that can take on the X-man early if he's around. That would deliver an early GA, of course. And remember that we need to keep him around as a pet if we want his free tech at the end of the ancient age.

[EDIT] Here's the F10 list. Persia is on it :eek:

What's your rush? :cool: We have two months at least. Let's not take a run at this. A 5cc is way off my beaten track, I'd like to think about it a bit.

We're commercial/industrious, we get Alphabet and Masonry as starters - two very tradable techs. Our UU is a pike with attitude - 2/3/1, costs 30 shields and needs Bronze Working, upgrades to musketman.

So. We don't need many workers - max 10 industrious critters to service our 5 cities, and Pottery/granary is not very high priority. Bronze Working gets us straight to a unit that can take on the X-man early if he's around. That would deliver an early GA, of course. And remember that we need to keep him around as a pet if we want his free tech at the end of the ancient age.

[EDIT] Here's the F10 list. Persia is on it :eek:
I'm glad you got this because I'm really confused now. I downloaded the GOTM 28 1.29f save and tried to do what you did but the game crashed on me several times, although the test game worked fine for me. Then I decided to check the GOTM 28 save for PTW and NeoCarthage isn't an entry!! :blush:

Now we have a clue, thanks Alan. I agree that we don't need to rush into this, just a saying! :blush: I think if we have the X Man as a neighbor, the apporoach would be to keep his number of cities down and deny him iron. That would keep him tame enough, that means an initial military build and rax once we have 2 or 3 cities up and running. It also means up the IW path so we can find the Iron to deny. I was hoping we might get the Great Library, but that may require a Great Leader, and we know how well we have done that in the early game, perhaps Gator will have a new RNG for us?? :lol: :lol:

Our approach will depend upon our goals. I have downloaded a copy of your 20K spreadsheet, but have you played out a 20K victory?

Sorry about the multiple posts :blush:

Just to get a debate started, here's the start position with some notes.

It looks like there's wheat SE/SE of the settler. The most powerful tile we can see currently is the BG/river tileEast of the start tile, so the worker can ether move there to get started, or stay where he is and chop the trees (only 5 turns), or head for the mountain for a better view. As he's industrious we can maybe afford to waste a move. The start tile is forest = shields, so I suggest we move the settler. Unless the worker move opens up new vistas, settler east looks favourite. It keeps my suspect wheat in range, and it's on the river.

I'm glad you got this because I'm really confused now. I downloaded the GOTM 28 1.29f save and tried to do what you did but the game crashed on me several times, although the test game worked fine for me. Then I decided to check the GOTM 28 save for PTW and NeoCarthage isn't an entry!! :blush: Was there a test save for 1.29? :confused: Make sure you aren't playing PtW. NeoCarthage isn't in PtW because it was created specially for 1.29 to replace Carthage.

I agree that we don't need to rush into this, just a saying! :blush:Sorry, so's 'What's the rush?" :blush:

I think if we have the X Man as a neighbor, the apporoach would be to keep his number of cities down and deny him iron. That would keep him tame enough, that means an initial military build and rax once we have 2 or 3 cities up and running. It also means up the IW path so we can find the Iron to deny.That fits with getting Bronze early for our UU.
I was hoping we might get the Great Library, but that may require a Great Leader, and we know how well we have done that in the early game, perhaps Gator will have a new RNG for us?? :lol: :lol:
The trouble with the Great Library it that we would then rely on the AI's tech pace. But that's glacial at Monarch level in my experience. We would want to get to Republic asap I think, so we might not want to wait for the AI to research it and its prerequisites. Trouble is I have no feel for how fast our own research will run in the Ancient Age with so few cities. For any of the victory options we need a fast pace, though.

Our approach will depend upon our goals. I have downloaded a copy of your 20K spreadsheet, but have you played out a 20K victory?I never have, so 20K plus 5cc would be a double new experience for me. The spreadsheet was just a technical task I took on to merge the facilites in a couple fo earlier versions, and to rise to the challenge of including anarchy periods in the forecast.

Good eye on the wheat.

At Monarch level the tech pace will be slow even with us gifting techs. There are 5 scientific civs in the game and if we get PER on our land then 4 of the 5 are together on the other continent. Also only 1 civ has Pottery at the start. Here’s a more detailed look at our competition.

CIVS.…….TRAITS……..TECHS………....…ERA...…..UU
neoCART…ind & com….MAS & ALPHA….AA…...Spartan Hoplite 2/3/1 (30 shields)
IND………...com & rel...CB & ALPHA…….MA…....War Elephant (knight)
GRK…….…sci & com…..BW & ALPHA……AA….....Hoplite 1/3/1 (20 shields)
OTTO…...sci & ind…...BW & MAS…….late MA…Dragoon (cav)
ROM………mil & com....WC & ALPHA……AA….....Legionaries (sword)
BAB………sci & rel…....BW & CB…………AA…......Bowmen (archer)
PER………ind & sci…....MAS & BW……..AA….....Immortals (swords)
VIK………exp & mil…....POT & WC………MA…....Galloglass 6/2/1 (amphib?)
KELT…….mil & rel….....WC & CB…………AA…....European Swordsman 3/2/2
GER………sci & mil….....BW & WC………Late IA..Panzers (tanks)

BW……….5
MAS……..3
ALPHA….4
POT……..1
WHEEL…0
WC………4
CB……….3

Wheel is only 1st tier tech not in play
MATH & WRIT are available 2nd tier techs

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
We are going to need to get to MapM quickly so we can meet the other civs and to help keep the tech pace up or even keep us at parity.

If we are not in too much of a hurry to start and since most of us have not played a 5CC, does anyone want to try a sample game up to the QSC. Just to get a feeling for the game.

Good analysis, Gator. :thumbsup:

Good point about Pottery. We'll need it to get to Map Making, and Persia certainly won't have it, though he might research it. It's kinda difficult to work this through without using prior game knowledge, although MB may have shuffled more civs around of course. Heck! Do we even know we are on the same starting continent as we were in gotm28? :hmm:

If we are not in too much of a hurry to start and since most of us have not played a 5CC, does anyone want to try a sample game up to the QSC. Just to get a feeling for the game.
Might be interesting for general ideas, but difficult to relate to the specifics of the current situation if we start on a random map. We could use BlueBox's scenario to run a game using neoCarthage, as France is the only commercial/industrious civ in standard 1.29, and she doesn't have the ancient UU.

It's kinda difficult to work this through without using prior game knowledge, although MB may have shuffled more civs around of course. Heck! Do we even know we are on the same starting continent as we were in gotm28? :hmm:Very good point, my guess is that he has changed a lot, as he didn't mention anything about not using prior knowledge. :confused:

I don't know how you can see that wheat. I can't see anything, but then again I never can, so.....? :crazyeye:
The minimap tells me that we are on the edge of the map, so there's probably coast closeby to the east. If we wan't to use RCP we might have to move inland, so worker NW onto the mountain sounds like a good idea.

I think we should go for The Great Library, especially if you are seriously considering a despotic GA, :eek: , I just had one, by mistake, in COTM4 and it's worthless. Therefore I also think our UU is worthless. :cry:
And it may also be the best for a fast tech pace, after Litterature we could research to The Republic, and then let the AI do the rest. Meanwhile we build our military and clean out our continent. :cool:
This way we control all the lux and resources on the continent, and it should leave a lot of space for the barbs. That's one thing I remember from our SGotm1, 5cc, we generated a lot of money and elites from the barbs! :), I don't know what victory condition to aim for yet, are we going for the green or the golden laurels? :)

Good work on the the starting techs Gator, :goodjob: ,there should be some trading possibilities.

btw : We do get techs from unknown civs through the GL, right? :confused:

Nice work on the analysis of starting tech Gator. The question I have is whether M-B changed any of the scientific civ traits? I know he is aware of the discussion concerning scientific civs and the benefit this gives to PTW teams over vanilla teams at change of age.

Alan, I didn't know that you had become a seer? :goodjob: I don't see a thing but that could be because I need a new perscription fo rmy glasses. ;)

I think it would be prudent, unless someone remembers, to hike up that mountain with the worker and see what we can see. While food is always important because we want our cities to grow to nice big size, shields may be more important as we need to get as much as possible out of 5 cities. So a look around couldn't hurt.

On the Great Library, I was thinking in terms of the culture needed should we attempt 20K. Also, I have used it to fill in the techs I don't want to research as I go up one branch of the tree.

Regarding research, I think we can hold our own early but will fall behind in the MA due to the cost of research and only having 5 cities. Until we can get the resources we need to keep the population happy so we can grow big, it will be a struggle. I think that is why Map Making and Suicide Galleys will be important, so we can try to be tech brokers if possible. My thoughts now are to head for Pottery and then Writing and hope to trade for Bronze Working with X Man. If X Man isn't near us and Gator's analysis is correct, there are plenty of other civs with BW.

I still think the victory condition question is all important because it drives how we set up our little empire. Perhaps the decision is easier if we consider peaceful versus warrior. Conquest (imho the hard way) or builder? Of course, when have we ever taken the easy path? :rolleyes:

Ooops, cross posted Zamint!
Very good point, my guess is that he has changed a lot, as he didn't mention anything about not using prior knowledge. :confused:
I am thinking too much about what happened in that game and I feel like I am falling into a trap. So that means scouts out asap! :cool:
I think we should go for The Great Library, especially if you are seriously considering a despotic GA, :eek: , I just had one, by mistake, in COTM4 and it's worthless. Therefore I also think our UU is worthless. :cry:
And it may also be the best for a fast tech pace, after Litterature we could research to The Republic, and then let the AI do the rest. Meanwhile we build our military and clean out our continent. :cool:
This way we control all the lux and resources on the continent, and it should leave a lot of space for the barbs. That's one thing I remember from our SGotm1, 5cc, we generated a lot of money and elites from the barbs! :), I don't know what victory condition to aim for yet, are we going for the green or the golden laurels? :)
I agree with this completely. We have to try for the speed laurel, don't we? If everyone is playing the variant, whoever gets there fastest should get both laurels because that will provide the highest Jason score since we will all have the same size empires. :crazyeye:
EDIT - Let's see, to maximize score we would have to build it quickly, get the pop up and keep 'em happy. Sounds easy, doesn't it!!
btw : We do get techs from unknown civs through the GL, right? :confused:
No, we have to have knowledge of the civ to get the benefit of their research efforts. If we know 2 civs, we will get whatever they both know. The others will mean nothing to us. That is why suicide galleys are so powerful, besides tech brokering, of course. :king:

btw : We do get techs from unknown civs through the GL, right? :confused:

No only from known civs, even if we know they have the tech (ie an unknown civ builds a Wonder involving a tech we do not have, that does not count as a known civ).

One thing I have done in a couple of my last GOTMs is to capture the GL prior to learning education and I have gotten bumped into the IA from it. I picked 13 techs in one game.

EDIT: Crossed with leif

One thing I have done in a couple of my last GOTMs is to capture the GL prior to learning education and I have gotten bumped into the IA from it. I picked 13 techs in one game.
I have done this as well. But, unfortunately, I had to do it or die!! :lol: :lol: :lol: I hope we don't get ourselves into that position. :blush:

I hate to sound like I'm beating a drum, but what we need to build and how we develop things depend upon the victory condition and laurel we choose to pursue. While the game will undoubtedly require some :hammer: , I think it will also require some finesse and clandestine operations (aka ganging up on the largest civ by creating wars and forming alliances) There will be something for everyone; trading, diplomacy, a little wonder building, Bob the Builder, perhaps even spies (Alan ;) ). Recognizing when to do what will be the challenge.

EDIT - Anyone seen the Capt? I suppose he is still in his SGOTM03 cabin on the isles having a break from painting and refinishing? :p :lol: :lol:

EDIT - Anyone seen the Capt? I suppose he is still in his SGOTM03 cabin on the isles having a break from painting and refinishing? :p :lol: :lol:


Sorry for the late arrival. I have, in fact, moved out of my sgotm3 cabin and into a new, improved one in the cotm4. For those that aren't aware, that's a massive gotm btw, and I'm having probs finishing it in time. Which would be a major boohoo :cry: cause I'm doing ok :cool:

I have not played gotm 28.
I do have some experience with the Carths though, and I can tell you, their UU is so far from useless. However, using it to its full potential will mean going the route less travelled by the Xteam: artillery ;)

I did a testgame of the power of Zeus on diety right when I got C3C, to test if SoZ really was as unbalancing as every1 said it was on small maps. I only ever built arty and Num mercs, in addition to the SoZ; and that with Rome and Greece as two of my neighbours. I revolted to Monarchy instead of Republic btw, cause otherwise troops cost with 2 cities would have been way too high :lol: The result of this trial game was that, although the SoZ was indeed unbalancing on small maps, I was even more impressed by the early use of combined arms of Cats/Num Mercs. In this game we may opt to add a few archers for inexpensive offensive kills. However, I would advice against it as the beauty of the Num Merc lies in its ability to promote on defense and kill on offense.
In addition to the incredibly low attrition rate by such a combo, we'll have loads of leader fishing opportunities which is golden for a 20K attempt.

My research choice would have to be: Pots at max, trade for BW, detour to Maths at max, hopefully trade for CB and/or WC and start building cats in cities w/o rax (this means we only need two barracks early on). After that, max to CB and WC (if needed), Myst at max, Poly min, Monarchy min.
Earliest estimated revolt (if Persia is our only neighbour) would be around turn 105, 470BC.

Btw: I noticed while playing the cotm4 that clear map (ctrl+shift+m) moves the edge of the FoW a few pixels. Are we allowed to use this at the starts?

I have not played gotm 28.
I do have some experience with the Carths though, and I can tell you, their UU is so far from useless. However, using it to its full potential will mean going the route less travelled by the Xteam: artillery ;)

In addition to the incredibly low attrition rate by such a combo, we'll have loads of leader fishing opportunities which is golden for a 20K attempt.

My research choice would have to be: Pots at max, trade for BW, detour to Maths at max, hopefully trade for CB and/or WC and start building cats in cities w/o rax (this means we only need two barracks early on). After that, max to CB and WC (if needed), Myst at max, Poly min, Monarchy min.
Earliest estimated revolt (if Persia is our only neighbour) would be around turn 105, 470BC.
This is an interesting concept and quite different than I am used to. The only problem will be that Cats require roads to traverse mountains (and hills?) and this map has lots of both. However, we are industrious. This will also mean an early, and quite useless, despotic Golden Age. If you can't tell, I am up for a 20K attempt but wish I had more experience in playing one. What better way to learn than all together with my favorite CivFanatics! :worship: There are several articles in the War Academy. They don't exactly meet our situation but have a great deal of background info to help us set a course, linked here (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_1city20k.shtml)
Btw: I noticed while playing the cotm4 that clear map (ctrl+shift+m) moves the edge of the FoW a few pixels. Are we allowed to use this at the starts?
I'd doubt we are supposed to be able to do this. I wonder if this is how the great seers who always seem to be right do it? :lol:

Btw: I noticed while playing the cotm4 that clear map (ctrl+shift+m) moves the edge of the FoW a few pixels. Are we allowed to use this at the starts?


Yes, I was unaware of this I must confess. Using Clear Map is not illegal. You can only do it when you have the save, and would be useful to help determine where to send your starting units. I have no objection to it being used. It will affect future map making decisions though. :mischief:

Thanks for the feedback, M-B. I've got no idea what I should read into the :mischief: smily. Something to do with the placing of resources in this game, perhaps? [pimp]

@ Leif: Cats can traverse hills, but not mountains or jungles. Usually there is a hilly way through the mountains and if not, our workers will be pretty idle after improving our 5 cities anyway so might as well use them to road towards our AI friends :hammer:
W/r to despotic GA: with the difficulty level being Monarch, we may opt to build troops and (hopefully) a nice culture start in the 20K city before starting our first war (after researching a gov tech and revolting).

EDIT: I forgot to mention the other reason I'd like to focus research towards Monarchy instead of the usual route of Writing through to Republic: we'll need CB anyway for an early temple.

ANOTHER EDIT: for just 5 cities, do we need the early granary? Only 4 settlers to get out and later growth could be focused around slaves joining cities.
We could start research towards CB, trade it + alphabet to Persia for BW, research Maths and (again hopefully) trade for WC before proceeding towards Monarchy. This could shave a few turns off our gov change although Xerxes may not be able to finish WC before we need it, IW tempting him with immortals...

@Capt - Have you played through 20K games? From reading through the War Academy and some of the spoilers from players that tried for them, it seems 20K requires a balance of skills and vigilence, not allowing any civ to get too far ahead. Both direct action by us or war through a surrogate is needed to check growth and tech pace. Seems to me like a game where we could all learn a lot together and, hopefully, win. It also provides for a bailout to Diplo or Spaceship if we screw it up? :cry: But that wouldn't happen to us... :rolleyes:

EDIT - I was just checking the maintenance thread. This was in it
Everything has changed!!! Mwhahahaha! If only you had solved the barb puzzle, you would be privy to all the secret nuances of this outlandish game!
:mischief: :crazyeye:
Zamint, does this have meaning beyond what we already know?

Yes, I've played through at least one 20K game on Monarchy, but that was C3C and with SGLs turned on which makes it another game altogether. It wasn't 5CC either so not much is directly transferrable to this game apart from the obvious (build lots of wonders :p ).
I could have won that game on diplo w/o even dogpiling, but pre C3C I think the chance of early MGLs directs a more offensive approach than the one I took in that game (which may or may not lead to diplo being less of an option :)).

Zamint, does this have meaning beyond what we already know?
What do we know, exactly? :confused:

Btw: I noticed while playing the cotm4 that clear map (ctrl+shift+m) moves the edge of the FoW a few pixels. Are we allowed to use this at the starts?

I discovered by accident that the Rings program does a similar thing, not much but a few pixels more. I was able to clearly see a fish on a coastal fog tile that was harder to see in the actual game. I think it was in our KA01 game.

Here is a shot of the wheat from the Rings programs.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam04_01.jpg

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Question on government choice: Why would Monarch be a better gov than republic here? Is it that we can reach monarchy quicker thus getting out of despot sooner or will the limited number of cities not benefit from republic's better economics (lower corruption).

Republic Government Unit maintenance cost is now 2 gpt/unit with free unit support of 1/3/4 for t/c/m.
I believe we'll need more than 33 units (cut off point at 5 size-7 cities if my calcs are correct) to fight effectively with only 5 cities. My own experience with so few cities is that the +1gpt per tile in Republic is offset by the added unit maintenance. There's also WW which needs to be taken into consideration, even with low attrition rate.

Btw: with the wheat confirmed, I propose we scout S with the worker, en route to the wheat and move E with the settler.

I discovered by accident that the Rings program does a similar thing, not much but a few pixels more. I was able to clearly see a fish on a coastal fog tile that was harder to see in the actual game. I think it was in our KA01 game.

Here is a shot of the wheat from the Rings programs.


Have you considered an eye test? :rolleyes:

:lol:
Well, my calc was, as is often the case, imperfect. I'd better do a test run when I get home.

What do we know, exactly? :confused:
That we are playing as the Carthaginians instead of the Indians. :D

I thought east was a Bonus Grass. I don't want to settle on a source of shields. Beware M-B's hint - I don't think there is wheat there? :confused: :mischief:


@Capt.- When you played your 20K attampt, did you use your capital as your 20K city or another? It seems that there are advantages to using a city other than the capital if we can fidn a suitable location and get it started asap.

Re:Government - everything I have read indicates Republic as the main choice because of the gold generated. That will mean some war weariness and unit support costs but it should be manageable?? :crazyeye: I will defer to experience however. :cool:

I used the capital, yes. But it was coastal and had a cow + hills. In this case, and with low corruption, I think we should go for another city than the capitol.

I thought east was a Bonus Grass. I don't want to settle on a source of shields. Beware M-B's hint - I don't think there is wheat there? :confused: :mischief:


In the Rings program it shows all grasses the same. So the BGs are not identifiable from the Rings screenshot.

To use a phrase from the NFL, "Upon further review" it's not a wheat it's a grass COW. My first look was to confirm that Alan had seen something there. Indeed he had, but you can notice the slight brown and white pattern of the cow's head.

Zamint, does this have meaning beyond what we already know? :lol: No!....The answer to the puzzle was : "Hannibal of Carthage", Taliesin solved it, but there's nothing more to it than we are playing Carthage instead of India. :lol:

Here is what I see when I clear the map :

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGotm4_start_4000_bc.jpg

but if you say there is a cow I don't mind. :D

I did some math on the Republic versus Monarchy :
We will pretty soon have 5 size-12 cities with 13 worked tiles each, this means 5x13=65 gpt more income in Republic.
Here's the math : (and it is getting late over here :mischief: )
Monarchy : 75 units = 75-(5x4) = 55 gpt unit cost.
Republic : 75 units = (75-(5x3))x2 = 60x2 = 120 gpt unit cost.
This means we are better off in Republic until we have more than 75 units. :cool:

20 K sounds OK to me, but I have done only one, back in tournament 5 or 6, and I can't remember anything. :crazyeye:

In vanilla on my Mac there's absolutely no change in the fog when I clear the map. Maybe we should move the worker and stop and discuss what we see? Next question is which way? We have the following options:

(a) The mountain. Will he see south east beyond our current fog line? He'll then take two more moves to reach the BG, wasting three worker turns in total.

(b) The BG to start mining. My vote.

(c) The forest to start a chop. A bad idea because he'll complete it in 5 turns. We should build a military unit first to put up a show of strength and get out exploring, and the only unit we can build to start with is a warrior for ten shields, so we'll waste most of the forest shields.

I thought east was a Bonus Grass. I don't want to settle on a source of shields.
I didn't suggest we should :confused: My map on page 1 shows settler NE, worker E. E *is* BG.

Zamint: we won't have size-12 cities that soon ;)
That said, by that time, we prob should be looking at at least 30 cats and 15 Num Mercs for the offensive punch so 75 units altogether might not be far off.
I've not been able to check it out, like I said it would. I'm not at all certain myself, but I think we should look into it more before deciding.
The prob with Republic (in addition to WW) is that you need to keep all those people happy. @ size 12, assuming a wild and probably way optimistic figure of 3 lux's online, we've still got 7 unhappy people (or rather 2 happy, 1 content and 9 unhappy).
Assuming a temple in all cities and 18 uncorrupted gold in Monarchy from each city (30 in Republic), that means 20% lux tax in Republic. In Monarchy, MP all cities with 3 units and you can leave tax at 10%, prob worth a unit per city.

Btw, no response on my 'skip pottery' suggestion yet. Am I really that crazy? :confused:

I didn't suggest we should :confused: My map on page 1 shows settler NE, worker E. E *is* BG.
Ah, that would be me :lol:
I'm having all sorts of crazy ideas this game... We get the lost shield back at size 7 (this applies to industrious as well, doesn't it?) and since we don't plan to stay in expansion mode for very long, we'll get there pretty soon.
I'm not ready to vote on that either though ;)

Edit: small point, but still... If we move like Alan suggests, I'd like to see us road first, then mine since we're industrious.

Have you seen what zamint3 did to GOTM 35 :hmm: Maybe pop 12 won't be all that far in the future. We're used to holding pop down with worker and settler builds, but that won't happen much.

30 + 15 is way below 75. Add max ten workers plus a few defenders if you insist, and you're still way below.

3 MP's per city in Monarchy will save 3gpt in happiness costs, but if we our total force is over the 20 free units for 5 cities we'll be paying 3gpt to maintain them. So they don't see to give a significant net gain. Of course, it's not precise, because you have to use multiples of 10% for each city.

Re skpping pottery, that was my original suggestion. But on reflection, we do need 60 pop as soon as possible (12 x 5). Some of this might come from slaves, but granaries in high food towns can cut the food we need by up to 600 over the expansion period. Also, we'll need pottery to achieve map making, though this is less urgent. If we have a single neighbour we'll rely on him researching it if we don't do it.

Here is what I see when I clear the map :


I'm using just the basic graphics package, yours looks like the Snoopy package.

Here's a better view of what I see (I shrunk the image in the first post)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam04_02.jpg

-------------------------------------------------------------

If we're aiming for a 20K city do we need that large of an army? Or will it be to control the size of our neighbors?

Here's my screenie blown up. You're right - it's a cow's head.

Good discussion!! :goodjob:

A Cow's Head is excellent news! Food and shields, got to love that.

@Gator- Military size. With only 5 cities, I understand it is a good thing to keep as large a military as your can afford to lessen sneak attacks and being pushed into tribute too often. Of course, if X Man is close by (who knows) we must deal with him. My last thought really comes from the Capt., 20K will be easier to achieve with leaders as we can rush wonders in Vanilla and PTW. Despite an early golden age (maybe), using Hoplite Mercenaries with Cats to generate great leaders may be a winning strategy. This, combined with suicide galleys, may allow us to get and stay ahead in Monarch difficulty. The problem I'm wrestling with, and I can see from the posts others are also, is how to get our cities up and running while keeping them happy while maintaining research and a military. Seems like an awful lot but I'm sure we can work out the balance.

@Alan-I agree with moving the worker E to the BG, road and then mine. From what we know now, I like the settler going NE unless the worker finds something better, or worse?? :crazyeye: I think it would be a good idea, if everyone agrees, to move that worker E and see what we find.

Once we get the capital established and look around a bit, we can decide on what site to pick for 20K city. If we can get a 20K city, 2 cities with rax for military units, a city pumping workers (to boost pop in the 20K city) and a city pumping cats, we'll be doing good.

Have you seen what zamint3 did to GOTM 35 :hmm: Maybe pop 12 won't be all that far in the future.
Just read up on it :goodjob: Zam. I don't play the vanilla gotm after Cotm came out (there just isn't enough time :cry: ). I propose we let Zamint take the first 20 turns :lol:

Republic it is, then. I'd still like us to do some AA fighting, but with Republic coming in I think it may be even more important to switch gov before setting off our GA. GA in Republic will mean we can definitly take a tech lead into the MA.

W/r to pottery, I'm not saying we should never build granaries. Just that in the early land grab fase, we may be just as well off by getting the 5 cities up asap and then start building infrastructure. I think the early granary is even pointlesser (in lieu ;)) if the cow is the only food bonus we have. That would put Carthage at +4 food and we're not in for the tight build that would enable us to MM between cities.


Edit: about settling NE: have we thought about how we're going to irrigate the cow after we mine the BG? Chop a forest and irrigate the grass under it? I'm till not conviced that this is the best way to go. If we settle on the BG, we'll still have a 4-6 (food=6+8+7+9) settler factory if there's another food resource available afaict, and the cow will then be able for irrigation on the offset.

Zamint: we won't have size-12 cities that soon ;)
That said, by that time, we prob should be looking at at least 30 cats and 15 Num Mercs for the offensive punch
We'll have 5 size-12 cities way before we have 45 military units, keeping them happy will be another problem. :eek: :lol:

I don't think it'll be worth spending gold on granaries, do we really need to grow that fast, when we are not able to keep our citizens happy. I not sure about this but with 5cc it'll all be about finishing fast, getting pop and tile count up fast won't be that important. :confused:

I didn't see Alan comment on the 30 cats. :lol: :lol:

If we don't get iron, I might agree to your plan! :D

We only need to get to pop 7 to support a big Republican army. After that it's down to whether we can keep them happy and profitable in gold or shields.

:hmm: I think it was 15 cats, and I'm not against them if someone can show me evidence that they are cost effective. If we are using Spartan Hoplites instead of horses they can keep up with the attackers. I've just not seen a mathematical argument in favour of them yet.

It really all comes down to when we want to hit and how hard. Perhaps if we have can trade for the wheel early and have horses nearby, horses can do the job.


Here are some calcs though, done using Bomber escort's combat calc program:

1) Reg Immortals are attacking us. We have either all Vet Horses or a combo of Vet Spartans and Cats.
1a) Immortals attacking our Horses: we loose ~ 50% of the time, we retreat ~ 44%, we win ~ 6%.
1b) Immortals attacking a Spartan/Cat combo: we loose ~ 35% of the time, we win ~ 65%. This is assuming defensive bombard, but not necassarily a succesful hit.
Not surprisingly, Spartans/Cats are clearly better on the defense with lower attrition rate as well as higher kill rate.

2) We attack a size 7 grassland city with either 18 Vet Horses or 15 Cats + 8 Vet Spartans (same total shield cost). Assume 5 Reg Spear defenders.
2a) Horses attacking enemy city: The first horse attacking wins ~ 34%, loose ~ 33% and retreats ~ 33%. Without accounting for possible upgrades to defenders it will take an average of ~ 15 Horses to capture the city with ~ 5 of those Horses lost.
2b) Spartans/Cats attacking the enemy city. The Cats have a good chance of reducing all defenders to 1 HP. It’s worth it to wait til this happens instead of wasting Spartans on more healthy defenders. It’s slower work, but the good thing is if the enemy sports veteran defenders, we don’t need more attackers, just more Cats. Again, disallowing for upgrade to defenders, we will need an average of ~ 7 Spartans to capture the city, 2 of those are lost.

I admittedly cut it a little close w/r to Spartans in this case. Like I stated before, and to ensure the progress of our campaign, I’d like us to have a bigger force than this before taking on the core of our neighbours. I think the argument is strong for the combo, though.

@Capt. - Just played around with BomberEscort's ver 1.22 Combat Calc. I didn't do the examples you did but came to some conclusions about the cat issue.

1. Cats, I was surprised to find, have a 54.79% chance of doing damage with each shot fired. At 50-50, we should expect to cause a 1 HP loss for every 2 cats in a stack in an attack. With 5 reg spears defending, that means 20 cats to get all 5 to redline with a neutral RNG. :rolleyes:

2. In defense, with Reg. Immortals (Attk=4) against Vet Numidian Mercenaries (Def=3), we should win 56% of the time. With bombardment, that increases with 4 bombard strength to 65%. The ctas give us a 9% advantage. I checked a Reg. Immortal with 2 HP (wounded by defensive bombardment) versus a Vet. Numidian Merc. at full strength and the Merc. wins 75% of the time, verifying the cats 50-50 hit rate.

What this tells me is that, to be effective, one has to build a hell of a lot of cats. They aren't very useful by themselves but in numbers, they can be quite useful.

Then the issue in a 5CC becomes the resources available to is (Iron, Horses??), the cost effectiveness of the units (win/loss versus cost) and the number of units we can support. While I understand the value of cat stacks in a game, we are back to the age old X Team discussion about speed of attack, number of units needed and style?? :crazyeye:

I am not convinced. 20 Cats represents 400 shields of production. 10 Numidian Mercinaries represent 300 shields of production. For 700 shields, we can field an army of 23 Horseman, (with horses of course), that can move faster and give us the ability to attack several towns each turn.

In my heart I'd like to give it a try because leader generation will be key to a 20K attempt. By my head continues to argue with my heart!! :lol: :lol:

BTW - Now I am itching to get through the AA in GOTM 35 so I can read abotu Zamint's exploits. If I screw it up, I'm blaming you guys. :D

Base defense of Spear defenders is 2, not 3 that you seem to have used, Leif. So I stand by 65% hit rate, which should mean that 15 cavs do an avg. damage of 9.75 HPs.
As you can see by my example above, the problem with Horses, will not be getting them, but keeping them. They will die in higher numbers than a combo will, both on offense and on defense.

20 Cats and 10 Spartans divided in two stacks will be enough to take out the smaller towns. We can then gather our forces attacking the Capitol, which probably would be the wisest thing to do with 23 Horses as well.

There's also the fact that we won't need as many rax this way, probably just two (one city building culture, two cities building Cats and Workers for the culture city leaves only two cities needing rax for Spartan builds.

Base defense of Spear defenders is 2, not 3 that you seem to have used, Leif. So I stand by 65% hit rate, which should mean that 15 cavs do an avg. damage of 9.75 HPs.
As you can see by my example above, the problem with Horses, will not be getting them, but keeping them. They will die in higher numbers than a combo will, both on offense and on defense.

20 Cats and 10 Spartans divided in two stacks will be enough to take out the smaller towns. We can then gather our forces attacking the Capitol, which probably would be the wisest thing to do with 23 Horses as well.

There's also the fact that we won't need as many rax this way, probably just two (one city building culture, two cities building Cats and Workers for the culture city leaves only two cities needing rax for Spartan builds.
The defense discussion in 2. above is for Immortals attacking us. Hoplite (Numidian?) Merc. are defense=3.

You are correct when you say the problem with Horseman is keeping them, to a degree. The advantage is that Horseman can stand off from a city and not take the counterattacks if the roads are thin early on. This whole discussion may be mute because we may not have horses. I think it almost time to begin, have a look around, and then come back to this when we have better info on location, resources and neighbors as these will all play into the decision and are unknown at this stage. The important points I think are decided, that we should head for Republic and that we can support a military in that government.

It sounds to me like everyone seems to be "on" with a 20K attempt, knowing that we have the option of Diplo or Space along the trail if it becomes untenable. The last issues before we begin are agreement on moving worker /settler and research objectives.

EDIT - I meant intial research objectives, since we know we are headed for Republic.

I haven't even started GOTM35 yet, just finished COTM4 last night.

I normally would lean towards building the horsemen, but with only 5 cities the reinforcements can not be produced as quickly. We need to be efficient not necessarily fast. If we attack early enough we could possible hit Xman before he gets his iron hooked up or atleast before he mass produces them.

Does the AI respect a Colony or will it build a city close enough to take over the colony? I rarely use colonies. If the AI respects it we could send an early worker and a few defenders to the iron and build a colony and just sit on it.

Does the AI respect a Colony or will it build a city close enough to take over the colony? I rarely use colonies. If the AI respects it we could send an early worker and a few defenders to the iron and build a colony and just sit on it.

I suspect not, but I don't have evidence. I imagine it just looks like another unit to them.

BTW - Now I am itching to get through the AA in GOTM 35 so I can read abotu Zamint's exploits. If I screw it up, I'm blaming you guys. :D Exploits, I don't even know the meaning of this word. :mischief: :lol: ......I did have some minor problems in the endgame, so I didn't finish until this morning, the first two digits in my Jason score is 11. :D

This whole discussion may be mute because we may not have horses. I think it almost time to begin, have a look around, and then come back to this when we have better info on location, resources and neighbors as these will all play into the decision and are unknown at this stage.I agree. :)


I suggest :
City micromanagement : Settler NE, worker road and irrigate the bonusgrass, then irrigate and road the wheat, and then back and mine the bonusgrass.
Research : Writing 100% (Note that contact and map trading are moved according to C3C rules) If we are alone, or with only one AI, then Map Making after that, otherwise straight towards Republic. (But I would also like to have the Great Library, don't think I ever tried it, and it may be worthless on Monarch ?? :confused: )
Build order :Warrior, warrior, settler.

@Gator : I don't think the AI respects colonies, but I'm not sure.

I agree we should get going. We've talked around the issues enough. Let's summarise what we have on the table and go for it:

1. Roster: Zamint3's early development in GOTM35 and indecently high standing in the Global Rankings seem to qualify him to lead us off. I imagine his GOTM35 Jason score is not 110-ish or 1100-ish :mischief: (Mine starts 10 :rolleyes: )

Any dissenters? Any known planned absenses or hurricanes we should work around? If not here's a pseudo-random roster order for you to pick holes in:

zamint3
DJMGator13
leif erikson
[Karasu deleted - wrong SG :blush: ]
Capt Buttkick
AlanH

2. Start: As summarised by zamint3. Worker east and if no significant surprises settler north east. Research Writing fast.

3. I've seen no objections to leif's proposal to target a 20K victory. That means seeking out a good seaside town location, capable of growing without an aqueduct, and with lots of shield potential for wonder production in case the RNG is slow with the leaders. Note that in this context the Great Library is a primary goal for its 6 culture per turn alone.

4. Military: Ongoing discussion can rage over the relative merits of a despotic golden age, cats+spartans vs horses vs swords, etc.

Let's get any further pre-game discussion done in the next 24 hours, then zamint3 can take the save and do his magic to take us to 3000 BC.

1. Roster: Zamint3's early development in GOTM35 and indecently high standing in the Global Rankings seem to qualify him to lead us off. I imagine his GOTM35 Jason score is not 110-ish or 1100-ish :mischief: (Mine starts 10 :rolleyes; )
Just be happy that your score starts with double digits!! :cry: I can only look on with :worship: Someday, perhaps ;)
Any dissenters? Any known planned absenses or hurricanes we should work around? If not here's a pseudo-random roster order for you to pick holes in:

zamint3
DJMGator13
leif erikson
Karasu
Capt Buttkick
AlanH
Is this a welcome to Karasu? :salute: From Staff to X Men, what a promotion!! :lol: :lol:
Just a suggestion, and I don't know where Karasu is physically located, but the system we have used before with time zones, Europe to America and back has provided fairly quick turnaround when we don't have a lot of issues to discuss. But any way is fine.
2. Start: As summarised by zamint3. Worker east and if no significant surprises settler north east. Research Writing fast.

3. I've seen no objections to leif's proposal to target a 20K victory. That means seeking out a good seaside town location, capable of growing without an aqueduct, and with lots of shield potential for wonder production in case the RNG is slow with the leaders. Note that in this context the Great Library is a primary goal for its 6 culture per turn alone.

4. Military: Ongoing discussion can rage over the relative merits of a despotic golden age, cats+spartans vs horses vs swords, etc.

Let's get any further pre-game discussion done in the next 24 hours, then zamint3 can take the save and do his magic to take us to 3000 BC.
No objections here. Good luck Zamint, find us a nice 20K city site, some horses and some "nice" neighbors. :rolleyes:

Just be happy that your score starts with double digits!! :cry: I can only look on with :worship: Someday, perhaps ;)

1. I didn't say how many digits follow the 10.

2. I didn't even say I won :mischief:

Is this a welcome to Karasu? :salute: From Staff to X Men, what a promotion!! :lol: :lol:
Whoops! Good catch! Wrong SG :(


Just a suggestion, and I don't know where Karasu is physically located, but the system we have used before with time zones, Europe to America and back has provided fairly quick turnaround when we don't have a lot of issues to discuss. But any way is fine.Karasu is in Italy, or he was last I heard. We've tried it both ways, with less 'follow-the-sun' last time because we felt a bit more discussion time was worth while. I felt this was probably better, but I don't feel strongly about it.

1. I didn't say how many digits follow the 10.

2. I didn't even say I won :mischief:
OK, humility is the order of the day... :p We all know our fearless leader is :king: , at least in my book anyway!!

Whoops! Good catch! Wrong SG :(

Karasu is in Italy, or he was last I heard. We've tried it both ways, with less 'follow-the-sun' last time because we felt a bit more discussion time was worth while. I felt this was probably better, but I don't feel strongly about it.
Then it is fine by me. If we find we need a change we can always shuffle things around. :goodjob:

:bump: Push the button :scan: recon and off we go :rockon:

2. I didn't even say I won :mischief:
Nor did I. :scan:
Let's get any further pre-game discussion done in the next 24 hours, then zamint3 can take the save and do his magic to take us to 3000 BC.OK, the magic was to build a lot of cities, and something tells me we don't need that in this game. :mischief:
Good luck Zamint, find us a nice 20K city site, some horses and some "nice" neighbors. Horses might be difficult in the first 20 turns, as nobody has The Wheel as starting tech (thanks Gator for listing the starting techs). I would like to see us on a continent with Germany, Ottomans, Vikings and India. :)

I'll post a got it 24 hours from Alans post.

Horses might be difficult in the first 20 turns, as nobody has The Wheel as starting tech (thanks Gator for listing the starting techs). I would like to see us on a continent with Germany, Ottomans, Vikings and India. :)

You mean to tell me you won't have The Wheel within the first 20 turns!! I have confidence in you. :eek: :thumbsup: :banana: :lol:

Just a note to remind everyone that Jason score *will* be important in this game. All teams are playing the variant, and so we are on a level playing field to target both gold and green laurels.

With everyone playing the variant, tech speed is going to be very important here. That will be one of the key issues seperating the teams.

Roster order looks OK to me.

Just a note to remind everyone that Jason score *will* be important in this game. All teams are playing the variant, and so we are on a level playing field to target both gold and green laurels.
I think this means there are 2 keys to the game.

1. Fastest finish for the victory condition rates a higher Jason score. Gator is correct, tech speed and getting wonders (prebuilds) built quickly will be necessary, along with those things we never build; temples, cathedrals and universities (we've always been pretty good at libraries), at least in the 20K city.

2. Largest empire for 5CC with the most happy citizens.

This brings up the question of city spacing. If we can, RCP would be nice, and the spacing, 5 or 6 minimum? I would use whatever we decide as a guide as the best location for the 20K city should be chosen and then we can work around the other cities as we need to. But a close spacing is not what we need in this game? That will make it harder to defend but....... :mischief:

EDIT - It will be interesting to see, as long as all teams stay with the variant, if the fastest team takes both laurels. I have a feeling that is what will happen. :goodjob: I'd say somethihng positive but I was reading about the U.S. Civil War today and found a quote by then President Lincoln. One of his generals promised to whip Rob't E. Lee. Lincoln said, "The wisest creature on earth is the hen because she waits to cackle until the egg is laid." :lol: :lol: :lol:

Research/GLib: I think the GLib could be very valuable in this game since we'll only have five cities and even more so if we have only one AI civ on our continent. I think we should then concentrate on getting the GLib, not go for Maps. Imhso we could concentrate on neutralizing our neighbour, get to Republic and only then send our galleys. What do we really need the techs for before then?
This approach means we can turn off research and earn gcs for later upgrades or even deficit tech runs if we have to.
I agree with starting out on Writing 100%, but I'd head directly towards Republic after that; maybe CoL at min, Phil at max, Republic at min, then Writing.

I still don't understand why everyone wants to go NE from the start position. So we earn one shield for a while if we do this. But we loose a lot of time and if our intention is getting our cities to size 7 asap anyway, I don't think it's worth it as a whole. Moving E means we can start working the cow straight away, irrigation will be done between turns 4 and 5 which means Carthage will grow to size 2 IBT 7 and 8. With this approach, I think we should go Warrior --> Worker --> Warrior --> Settler.
Edit: If your choice to go NE has to do with prior map knowledge, please let me know so I can stop nagging :p

It's been a good discussion so far. My main concern is that we seem to want to play this game like any other game.
This is from Charis' 5CC guide btw: With high food and low shields a granary is an option but it's far less crucial than in other games where REX and/or settler factory is used. You only need build only four settlers, ever.
Afaics we really don't have either, neither exceptionally low shields, nor as high food as we would have liked (+5). So no early granary imhso. I've also been lurking in a few 5CC-threads and pottery --> granary is rarely prioritized.

I know spending a lot of time before doing anything may distress some of you (although the Xteam has been pleasantly relaxed w/r to progress if we don't have to push on :thumbsup: ) I'm just trying to think out of the box from the start here, trying to figure out what we need to do to be succesful at a 5CC game. As always a good pregame discussion often wins the early game so I'm sorry for the teams that have started already :lol:



The defense discussion in 2. above is for Immortals attacking us. Hoplite (Numidian?) Merc. are defense=3.
I know, but this: 1. Cats, I was surprised to find, have a 54.79% chance of doing damage with each shot fired. suggests that you've used 3-defense spears for our neighbours as well which detriments the power of Cats.

Btw, I just looked at the leaderboard graph and it seems as though most teams have chosen similar opening moves with Peanuts (as always:lol: ) and perhaps Alamo going the road less travelled (although possibly not the same road ;)
I think it's difficult to read into the scores what the teams may have done (and trying too hard may be comprimising the spirit of the game :lol: ), but I'm pretty sure that some of the higher scorers in the first 20 turns will have moved E and I guess they're the teams I think will do the best...

(:lol:, I know. Heavy [pimp]ing...)

Research/GLib: I think the GLib could be very valuable in this game since we'll only have five cities and even more so if we have only one AI civ on our continent. I think we should then concentrate on getting the GLib, not go for Maps. Imhso we could concentrate on neutralizing our neighbour, get to Republic and only then send our galleys. What do we really need the techs for before then?
This approach means we can turn off research and earn gcs for later upgrades or even deficit tech runs if we have to.
I agree with starting out on Writing 100%, but I'd head directly towards Republic after that; maybe CoL at min, Phil at max, Republic at min,
then Writing. :confused: You mean Map Making, I guess.

But good points. What techs *do* we need?

- To neutralise our neighbour *if* there's only one: Bronze->Iron or Wheel or Warrior Code depending on which early unit we decide to rush him with.

- To get our 20K city rolling: One or more of Literature (Library), CB (Temple), Map Making (Lighthouse), Bronze (Colussus). We already have Masonry if we want to go for Pyramids.

- To reach a more productive government: Republic.

- To meet the rest of the world: Map Making.

The key questions for me are who's out there? What are we going to do about them? And if we need to attack, which unit(s) are we going to use to take him/them down? If we need any miitary techs then where are we going to get them? I don't think we know any of these things.

I still don't understand why everyone wants to go NE from the start position. So we earn one shield for a while if we do this. But we loose a lot of time and if our intention is getting our cities to size 7 asap anyway, I don't think it's worth it as a whole. Moving E means we can start working the cow straight away, irrigation will be done between turns 4 and 5 which means Carthage will grow to size 2 IBT 7 and 8. With this approach, I think we should go Warrior --> Worker --> Warrior --> Settler.
Edit: If your choice to go NE has to do with prior map knowledge, please let me know so I can stop nagging :p
I don't have detailed prior map knowledge, only the general picture from the original game. So I don't know what's beyond the immediate fog, and as I've said, I don't even trust MB to have put us at the original start or on the original start continent.

1. We are industrious. Worker turns are 2 to road or irrigate, 3 to mine.

2. Counting from turn 0: If we settle east on turn 1 and irrigate the cow we are at 3fpt during turn 1 and 4fpt from turn 2, and we reach pop 2 at end of turn 6 and then grow every 5 turns. If we build 4 settlers and 4 workers from Carthage then our settlers will take 40 turns, our workers will take 20 turns, 5 more pop will take 25 turns, and we'll reach pop 7 at turn 91 to start using the extra bonus shield.

3. If we settle north east on turn 1 we reach pop 2 at end of turn 10. By then we can have the cow irrigated and grow every 5 turns. For the next 81 turns we'll have access to the bonus shield on the north east tile. So this option gives us 81 more shields but we reach pop 7 4 turns later.

81 shields seems to me to be a good trade-off vs 4 turns earlier to pop 2 :hmm: The only way this doesn't hold water is if we always have 2 spt + 2 fpt tiles for all our citizens to work anyway, and don't need the NE tile. Unlikely.

It's been a good discussion so far. My main concern is that we seem to want to play this game like any other game.
.....
Afaics we really don't have either, neither exceptionally low shields, nor as high food as we would have liked (+5). So no early granary imhso. I've also been lurking in a few 5CC-threads and pottery --> granary is rarely prioritized.
I agree no granary. My only reason for raising pottery is that it's required for Map Making. We'll have to trade for it or research it to get to the rest of the world, and relying on trading for it could be a chicken and egg situation. It's priority if we have to research it depends entirely on the priority of Map Making.

I know spending a lot of time before doing anything may distress some of you (although the Xteam has been pleasantly relaxed w/r to progress if we don't have to push on :thumbsup: ) I'm just trying to think out of the box from the start here, trying to figure out what we need to do to be succesful at a 5CC game. As always a good pregame discussion often wins the early game so I'm sorry for the teams that have started already :lol:
Getting started early doesn't bother me, and I know leif likes to understand the big picture before taking the plunge ;) If you want to call a further time-out before zamint3 gets going, lets do it.

PS Alamo are only off the beaten track because they played a ten turn start instead of 20/21. Their score line looks high because of the early boost from the first territory gain, but will come back into line after another 10 turns.

I still don't understand why everyone wants to go NE from the start position. So we earn one shield for a while if we do this. But we loose a lot of time and if our intention is getting our cities to size 7 asap anyway, I don't think it's worth it as a whole. Moving E means we can start working the cow straight away, irrigation will be done between turns 4 and 5 which means Carthage will grow to size 2 IBT 7 and 8. With this approach, I think we should go Warrior --> Worker --> Warrior --> Settler.
You may have a good point there, if worker east reveals any more bonusgrass, I think it's a very good idea. :goodjob: . I think we are all living by some "rule of thumb" saying : never settle on a bonusgrass. ;) I'll do some math myself. :crazyeye:

I wouldn't build the early worker though, our industrious worker should be fine on his one for a while, even more if we settle east. :)

+4 food I would consider "High Food" , but I agree : No granaries.

btw : I never did find out what the s in imhso stands for. :cool:

I know, but this: suggests that you've used 3-defense spears for our neighbours as well which detriments the power of Cats.
Very good catch, you are correct! :goodjob: It is 64.5% against a base 2 defender. So it requres a stack of 15 instead of 20. Thanks for pointing it out. I wonder how they figured out that the probability of hit would change based upon defender strength? :confused: I suppose more experienced infantry dig a deeper hole or are more nimble is dodging the stones that are hurled at them. ;)

Initial research - plan to either research or buy techs that display new resources. If the Great Library is in your plans, get to Literature ASAP. In general, pick techs the AI tends to neglect and research those for great bartering opportunities. Mathematics and Polytheism come to mind.

In a culture game have a *total focus* on culture on the city you plan to hit 20K. Have other units make workers to add in to that city, produce all the military, and support the culture city. If other cities go for wonders at all, it would be almost strictly for the purpose of breaking the cascade, or to catch lower culture-generating wonders that your culture city can't get but the AI will. (e.g. say your culture city is working on Newton's and another city can get Smith's)

Writing fast and then to Lit sounds like the ticket to me, then on to Republic.

Capital City location-I suppose that I am somewhat locked into a pattern. Foregoing shields is not in my nature. I think the counter to your point is that if we settle NE, at size 7 we'll have yet another shield of production from the grass tile. So instead of recovering one, we'll have 2. Is the speed of getting that Cattle tile irrigated worth the loss of a shield? Not for me, but, as usual, I could be missing something in the discussion. :crazyeye:

You may have a good point there, if worker east reveals any more bonusgrass, I think it's a very good idea. :goodjob: . I think we are all living by some "rule of thumb" saying : never settle on a bonusgrass. ;) I'll do some math myself. :crazyeye:Check my arithmetic above.

I wouldn't build the early worker though, our industrious worker should be fine on his one for a while, even more if we settle east. :)We probably need a second worker soon after our settler, though.

btw : I never did find out what the s in imhso stands for. :cool: "Shepherd's", apparently :confused: I personally think it has some other, darker meaning :scan:

Check my arithmetic above. You beat me to it, and I agree, :thumbsup: even if worker east should reveal 3 more bonusgrass, I don't think it's worth it. So my vote stands : Settler NE :)


We probably need a second worker soon after our settler, though. Yes, especially because we want to grow our 20K city fast, I forgot. :)

Writing fast and then to Lit sounds like the ticket to me, then on to Republic. I agree. :)


"Shepherd's", apparently :confused: I personally think it has some other, darker meaning :scan: :hmm:


EDIT : I could move the worker east and come back with a screenshot, if you feel we need to discuss this more.

:lol: It's shepherd, yes. Nothing as humble as a shepherd ;)

:confused: You mean Map Making, I guess.
Sorry, I meant Literature. If we prebuild with the palace for the GL (after catching the Colossus), I don't think we need to have Lit before the Republic? My point is that I consider all other techs, besides the military techs that I really need (in this case BW and maths), a gov tech and Lit itself, optional if I know I'm going to get the GLib anyway.

For the next 81 turns we'll have access to the bonus shield on the north east tile. So this option gives us 81 more shields but we reach pop 7 4 turns later.
Assuming we'll work the cow at all times, we don't get any shield effect before size 3. There's the other BG to be taken into consideration. At size 2 we can either work Cow + BG by river (settling NE) or Cow + BG south of start. We only loose 1 gpt, no shields.
If our build order is confirmed Warrior --> Warrior --> Settler (I agree that the industrious Worker will do nicely on his own for a while ;)), the settler will pop and bring our city down again. I'll try to work this out in a spreadsheet.

EDIT : I could move the worker east and come back with a screenshot, if you feel we need to discuss this more.Worker east wastes a turn if we decide to move settler east, but it has no effect on growth as we have one spare food for the first pop increase on my calculation. Just costs us a gold point for the later road.

At size 2 we can either work Cow + BG by river (settling NE) or Cow + BG south of startTrue. I'd missed the second BG :blush: Pop 3 is reached at turn 11 if we settle east, though, so that only delays my argument by one shield - 80 instead of 81. Of course, if there are more BGs to work we can control population by popping settlers or workers and work them all. If there are five BGs plus the cow, my argument breaks completely.

But .. another consideration if we have lots of BG for shields: While we are building workers or settlers we only need 3spt to make a settler every 10 turns or 2 spt for a worker every 5 turns. We'll have 3spt from the visible tiles at pop 3 - cow+BG+city. Above pop 3 we'll have surplus shields for 40 turns. We can't produce cats using these shields until we get to Maths. Should we build a barracks after the first settler so that we can interleave vet warriors or hoplites?

:lol: It's shepherd, yes. Nothing as humble as a shepherd ;)
That is what I love about this team, everyone is humble enough to know they could be wrong on occassion! Please see my Lincoln quote. :D
If our build order is confirmed Warrior --> Warrior --> Settler (I agree that the industrious Worker will do nicely on his own for a while ;)), the settler will pop and bring our city down again. I'll try to work this out in a spreadsheet.
I would be interetsed in seeing this, might even learn something. Do you think an old dog can learn new tricks? :mischief:

After reading the discussion this morning I decided to take a look at the wonders available for culture in the AA. I realized one problem with heading for Republic, Hanging Gardens. Besides the 4 culture per turn, until Steam Power tech it makes 3 citizens content in its city, a great way to stem the "lux gap" until we get things further developed in our 20K city. While I still believe that we need to get to Republic, we may need to have a pre-build going and keep an eye out to trade for Monarchy.

A quick discussion of wonders.
The Pyramids.
We can build this straight away and it gives 4 culture per turn. It requires 400 shields to build, so it not the most efficient culture per shield wonder. It would make a good pre-build however if we use the capital as the 20K city because we can't find a better location.

The Colossus.
We need Bronze Working to build this wonder. It costs 200 shields to build and provides 3 culture per turn, not bad. As a commercial civ, this would also give us an extra gold piece per turn for each citizen working a tile in the city in which it is built.

The Great Library.
We need Literature to build this wonder. It costs 400 shields to build and produces 6 culture points per turn. It is the best culture per shield producer in the AA, I think it is a must have in our 20K city. It is also an early wonder so we get more culture points over time with this than any other improvement.

The Great Lighthouse.
We need Map Making to build this wonder. It costs 400 shields to build and produces 2 culture per turn, not a very wise investment of shields. Unless we have an extra Great Leader and need this for suicide galleys, we should pass o this one.

The Oracle.
We need Mysticism to build this wonder. It requires 300 shield to build and produces 4 culture per turn, not a bad investment. We should keep this in mind if we have a chance to get it. It also doubles the effect of temples for a short period so it would help with happiness, once we build a temple of course, in our 20K city.

The Hanging Gardens.
I already discussed this above. But 4 ciulture for 300 shields isn't bad and we get the effect of 3 unhappy citizens made content.

The Great Wall.
We nedd Construction for this wonder. It requires 200 shields to build and produces 2 culture per turn. Unless we need the defense, and we might, this is not a priority.

Of course we all know that there are a bunch of MA wonders. We can review those when we get there. I did this because I thought it an interesting exercise. It points out to me that our priority in wonder building should be:

1. The Great Library. This is the top priority, must have!

2. The Hanging Gardens. This is very close to a must have. We can skip it if we can build The Oracle.

3. The Oracle. This is a very nice to have but can be skipped if we can get The Hanging Gardens. Of course, both HG and Oracle would be the best of all worlds.

4. The Colossus. A very important wonder for a commercial civ. This is a top early priority but I wouldn't miss The Great Library to complete it.

After this, all the other AA wonders are nice to haves, not necessities.

The thing that strikes me in doing this exercise is the variety of techs we need to accomplish this. Tech pace and tech trading will be very important in this game. Let's hope we have a number of "nice" neighbors. The only other thoguht this brings to mind is if there are any techs we should deny our opponents for any particular reason?

Very good discussion.

If we settle E on the BG we bring the cow into play immediately. If we build only 1 warrior, we can get a settler on turn 13, one turn after hitting size 3.


Food Shields
Turn 0 move
Turn 1 settle / worker to cow
Turn 2 3(3) 2(2)
Turn 3 3(6) 2(4)
Turn 4 4(10) 2(6)
Turn 5 4(14) 2(8)
Turn 6 4(18) 2(10) build warrior / growth next turn with 2 extra food
Turn 7 4(22) 4(4)
Turn 8 4(4) 4(8)
Turn 9 4(8) 4(12)
Turn 10 4(12) 4(16)
Turn 11 4(16) 4(20) growth next turn
Turn 12 4(20) 6(26)
Turn 13 4(4) 5(31) build settler

If we settle E on the BG we bring the cow into play immediately. If we build only 1 warrior, we can get a settler on turn 13, one turn after hitting size 3.

While all this is great info, the question for me is where are we going to use that settler? If we don't have the warriors out scouting for a 20K city site, what good does an early settler do us, unless of course we are planning to build the 20K city later?

We may find that, if there are a number of BG's around, we are on the 20K site and then we would need a high food second site to produce the rest of our settlers and the workers we will need to grow the 20K city. If the capital is most suited to the purpose, then an early settler is certainly called for so we can continue ot expand. No?

Worker east wastes a turn if we decide to move settler east, but it has no effect on growth as we have one spare food for the first pop increase on my calculation. Just costs us a gold point for the later road.
I don't get this, if we settle east our worker is going straight for the cow, right! :confused:

I just did a terrible testgame. :cry:
I researched 100% to Litterature, prebuild with the Pyramids, and France beat me with 30 turns to GL. :eek:
I build cities at distance 6, 7, 8 and 8, corruption was only 20% at distance 8.

@Gator : do you vote for Settler east?

@Leif : how and when do we know if the capital is best suited as our 20K city?
EDIT: I thought we wanted it on the coast! (..and on a river. :) )

It doesn't look like I get to play today! :D :cool:

Agree, scouting for our 20K site will be important, adding the second warrior delays the settler by only 3 turns and gives us 7 turns to scout with that warrior. But if the first warrior finds a good site before the second completes we could switch the production to get the 20K city online quicker.

Crossed with Zamit:

I vote E only if we go warrior/settler build order gaining the settler on Turn 13. The NE position will generate 2 warriors and a settler in 17 turns, while the E position generates 2 warriors and settler in 16. Don't think the 1 turn difference is a game breaker. But a 4 turn difference for the first settler could be big.

I did the spreadsheet. Hope this works out.
In the first timeline, settler moves E:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Sgotm4_Settler_east.jpg

In the second, settler moves NE:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Sgotm4_Settler_northeast.jpg


I'll assume we pop the last settler out of the second city we produce (after the 20K-city). Carth still has a few workers to produce, though. My point is that with this constant bopping up and down, never over 4 pop-points, most of the arguement of going NE is lost. No prob timing city E to produce a warrior in 2 turns. However, if we produce it at the same size with placement NE, the extra shields (1 each turn) will be wasted.
I'm sure you could have MM'ed the NE city better than I did here, but the point isn't whether you can earn a shield or two. The point is that we're half the way til Alan's projected size 7 and the E city is still in front.

In the second spreadsheet, the first worker moves to the 20K city after it has finished mining (noted by start mining). Settler E --> Second worker moves to 20K-city.

Btw, even 20% corruption is too much imo. I think RCP is the order of the day, even with only 5 cities.

I hate this auto-editing thing. I'm not a spammer, but sometimes it's better to have different subjects in different posts :mad:

I just did a terrible testgame. :cry:
I researched 100% to Litterature, prebuild with the Pyramids, and France beat me with 30 turns to GL. :eek:
I build cities at distance 6, 7, 8 and 8, corruption was only 20% at distance 8.

This isn't good news!! 20% corruption is a little steep isn't it? Do you think RCP will mitigate some of that?
@Leif : how and when do we know if the capital is best suited as our 20K city?
EDIT: I thought we wanted it on the coast! (..and on a river. :) )
First of all, I have never played a 20K game before. I wrote that because I think we have to be as concerned about where we place cities as we are about pumping out a fast settler and I wanted everyone to think about it for a minute and tell me if I was nuts. From the reading I've done, and the Capt. may have better info from his experience, it sounds to me like the ideal site has:
Required
1. A River.
2. Enough food allow the city to grow to size 12 early and then as large as we can make it later.
3. Some shield rich terrain such as hills, BG , forest (early at least) and a few mountains (if food is plentiful enougn to support their use in Republic). The site must be capable of punching out wonders so shield output needs to be high. The Great Library requires 400 shields so we ahve to be able to generate them in a reasonalbe time.
Nice to have.
1. Ocean site.
2. Resources (Bonus, Strategic or Lux) - food and shield generators.

To answer your question about how and when, I would say that if we have reconned 10 to 13 squares around the capital and a suitable site is not found, then we have to stop and consider using the capital. If we get too far away, the corruption will make the 20K city not productive enough for our needs. If the capital has a cow and 3 or 4 BG's, 2 forests and a mountain along a river, it is not a bad site, I think. The only problem with using th ecapital, as I understand it, is that you can't use the palace as a pre-build. There should be enough other wonders available to pre-build with early on if we plan accordingly and find suitable civs to trade with, two big if's I know. I never said it would be easy to do!! :D But I hope this helps?? :crazyeye:

Perhaps the Capt. can shed some further light on the subject as he has actually done it. :cool: I've only read the theories and guides. :blush:

EDIT - It autoedited me as well, below was to be the second post!!

I'll assume we pop the last settler out of the second city we produce (after the 20K-city). Carth still has a few workers to produce, though. My point is that with this constant bopping up and down, never over 4 pop-points, most of the arguement of going NE is lost. No prob timing city E to produce a warrior in 2 turns. However, if we produce it at the same size with placement NE, the extra shields (1 each turn) will be wasted.
I'm sure you could have MM'ed the NE city better than I did here, but the point isn't whether you can earn a shield or two. The point is that we're half the way til Alan's projected size 7 and the E city is still in front.

In the second spreadsheet, the first worker moves to the 20K city after it has finished mining (noted by start mining). Settler E --> Second worker moves to 20K-city.
Nice job Capt. :goodjob: I am willing to try this. If we need to use the capital as the 20K city, we can always mine a grassland or two to add more shields. With industrious workers, we can also change the tile from mine ot irrigation a couple of times later depending on our needs. The only other issue is that the other BG isn't on the river, so we only get 1 Gold from using it instead of 2. But, after making my final point, I'll relent. ;)

Before the settler moves E, I think the worker should go first to confirm the cow? :blush:

Sounds good to me.

Workers first priority is the cow and since the settler is going E, we could move the settler S, to confirm cow and push back some fog, then E to cow. By going E & S on the first move we push back the mximum amount of fog.

Nice input Capt. :thumbsup: , and I'm happy with either decision. :cool:


If the capital has a cow and 3 or 4 BG's, 2 forests and a mountain along a river, it is not a bad site, I think. A food bonus and some hills would be nice. :)



Originally Posted by DJMGator13
Workers first priority is the cow and since the settler is going E, we could move the settler S, to confirm cow and push back some fog, then E to cow. By going E & S on the first move we push back the mximum amount of fog.I hope you mean worker south. :lol:

:blush: Oops, yes I meant the worker :crazyeye:

OK, do we have a deal? Worker explores for a turn then irrigates cow. Settler east unless there's compelling new information. Writing at max and away we go?

OK, do we have a deal? Worker explores for a turn then irrigates cow. Settler east unless there's compelling new information. Writing at max and away we go?
Looks good to me!! I meant to say this earlier but said so much I forgot it. :blush:

I just want to say that I have complete faith in Zamint, as well as the rest of you, more than I have in myself. ;) If he finds anything in his turns that requires him to change course, then he should do so. I think we agreed, way back when, that the player holding the mouse made the decisions. If the player wants the input, then they should stop and ask. I have done so in the past, but it is the mouseholder's decision. Yes? We sink or swim together but we shouldn't hamstring one another nor second guess, too much... :eek: I just thought it needed saying, perhaps it didn't. :mischief:

Good luck Zamint. :bounce: :salute: :thumbsup:

:lol: Now I feel like I hijacked the discussion on where to move :p
And I don't understand where I got that 3rd forest from :confused:

The arguments for moving E instead of NE can imo be summarized thus:
1)We reveal more map before the final decision has to be made. Let's say there's another bonus S S. Settler SE could then very well be the best move.
2) We get a warrior one turn earlier and our first settler one turn earlier.

The main arguments for moving NE are:
1) We get more gold that way (with the first BG on the river).
2) We earn at least 20 shields from we've built our last worker until we're at size 7.

Looking at it now, after thinking about it a few hours, I realize it's very close w/r to shields vs. the warrior/settler output. I think I'll let the gold argument tip it for me and agree on going NE (at least we'll know it was a well-pondered decision :lol: ).

Looks good to me!! I meant to say this earlier but said so much I forgot it. :blush:

I just want to say that I have complete faith in Zamint, as well as the rest of you, more than I have in myself. ;) If he finds anything in his turns that requires him to change course, then he should do so. I think we agreed, way back when, that the player holding the mouse made the decisions. If the player wants the input, then they should stop and ask. I have done so in the past, but it is the mouseholder's decision. Yes? We sink or swim together but we shouldn't hamstring one another nor second guess, too much... :eek: I just thought it needed saying, perhaps it didn't. :mischief:

Good luck Zamint. :bounce: :salute: :thumbsup:

I agree with all of this and I'd like to add that I have more faith in you, leif than I do in myself. I mean, in this cotm even my leader RNG has failed me. I'm waiting for a GL to build a small wonder and I must have had like 40 elite victories w/o luck. Let's hope the RNG gods are saving themselves for our stab at 20K in this sgotm [pimp]

Good luck, Zamint and of course :rockon: ;)


Btw: I think you're spot on w/r to your assessment on where the 20K city should go, leif.

I'm waiting for a GL to build a small wonder and I must have had like 40 elite victories w/o luck. Let's hope the RNG gods are saving themselves for our stab at 20K in this sgotm [pimp]

Good luck, Zamint and of course :rockon: ;)
Don't scare me like this!! :lol: :lol: :lol: But I know how you feel because in GOTM 34, I conquered the whole starting continent and got my first leader in destroying the last civ's last unit there, and two of the civs had respawned!! So, I hope that I am due as well. Between Gator and Zamint returning, one of them will bring a new RNG sequence with them. :rolleyes:
Btw: I think you're spot on w/r to your assessment on where the 20K city should go, leif.
Thanks, nice to know I can still learn from reading. I'm getting so I forget half of it before I finish the page!! :D

Oh well now I'm totally confused. It sounds like the difference between the two alternative settler moves is smaller than the errors we'll probably get from not MMing perfectly. If so it's not a big deal. It's zamint3's call.

Let's get this party started so I can get skipped when I lose power Sunday because of another Hurricane. Advance warning if you don't hear from me for a few days that is exactly what happened. Alan this is the storm I told you about in KA01 eailer this week. The damn thing stalled out, dropped south and is now heading west straight for Florida.

Oh well now I'm totally confused. It sounds like the difference between the two alternative settler moves is smaller than the errors we'll probably get from not MMing perfectly. If so it's not a big deal. It's zamint3's call.
Sorry I confused you. :eek: It wasn't hard to do because I think I am confused myself. :crazyeye:

That's why I wrote my little bit. I think, as the starting player, Zamint has heard about all we have to say. I know I have said plenty, hopefully not too much. ;) Perhaps it is time for him to start, evaluating all we have discussed, and doing what he feels will best get us moving in the right direction.

I have complete faith and confidence in him because I know he doesn't want the staff team to beat us so you get too much grief!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

EDIT - Cross Posted with you Gator. Good luck. I hope it turns north and misses you. You have had enough for one season down there. I'm praying for you all. :jesus:

Well I thouht things had been straightened out this morning, :mischief: , and what do I see : You have left it all for me to decide. :lol:
On top of that both Alan and the Capt has changed their mind. :crazyeye: :crazyeye: :crazyeye:

I'll play in 6 hours so if you have any new ideas, let me know. :D

:lol: :thumbsup: Good luck, Zamint.

Edit: that's what you get for playing with people who are able to change their mind when confronted with good arguments :lol:

Captain's done the most analysis. I confess I didn't understand all of his spreadsheet - there's a six-turn mining effort at one point? But if you don't have a preference yourself then go with his last call on the settler direction.

If you're referring to my spreadsheet there's a six-turn mining effort where a worker who has just chopped and improved on the fourth turn moves from the square he's been working on, on road, to another tile that's been chopped and roaded, but not mined.

Ah! I wondered about that, but I saw you had put "move, mine" in other places where they both happened in one turn :thumbsup:

And, yes :blush: I meant you, not Gator :confused: I've edited the post.

I can't see it, but no matter. Like I said, I think the NE approach will do good anyway. Just don't use my spreadsheet as a guide to opening turns. There are mistakes (like the 3rd forest :lol: ).

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I love this team!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm afraid to say anything as poor Zamint may ask for leave for the asylum. Great job everyone, the analysis and hard work is perfect. Now, my friends, it is time for decisions and those can only be made by the player, so go for it Zamint. I will be waiting anxiously to see what you do!! :coffee: We have given you so much to think about that your head must be about to burst. Good luck... :king:

OK! - I'm playing, and the settler is going E.......... or maybe NE........or......aaaargh, I need more coffee! :crazyeye:

I almost wish we had hurricanes in Denmark, hang in there Gator! :)

OK! - I'm playing, and the settler is going E.......... or maybe NE........or......aaaargh, I need more coffee! :crazyeye:

I almost wish we had hurricanes in Denmark, hang in there Gator! :)
Kind of makes you wonder why you came back? :rolleyes: :D

See you soon, Have a fun!! :goodjob:

Congratulations, guys! We're well on course for the spammers award. We have the second highest thread count and we're the only team that hasn''t posted a save yet :D. Smackster are top posters by a small margin, but they've played umpteen turns already.

Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

Save uploaded (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Xteam_SG004_BC3000_01.SAV)

Finally I flipped a coin, and started the game. :D

Turnlog SGotm 4, zamint3
4000 BC Turn 1
Worker moves S and confirm the cow. Settler moves E, we are close to the coast. I’ll go for the fast settler.

3950 BC Turn 2 :
Worker E onto cow. Carthage founded on the eastern bonusgrass. There is another cow N, NE :) Carthage starts on warrior. Set research to Writng at 100%.

3900 BC Turn 3 :
Worker starts irrigating the cow.

3850 BC Turn 4 :
-

3800 BC Turn 5 :
Irrigation complete, workers starts on road.

3750 BC Turn 6 :
-

3700 BC Turn 7 :
Carthage produces warrior and starts on settler. Warrior will explore SW, there is a river and some hills and mountains. Worker will go mine the other cow, should be timed with expansion.

3650 BC Turn 8 :
Warrior explores, there is too many mountains!

3600 BC Turn 9 :
Worker starts mining the cow. More mountains SW :(

3550 BC Turn 10 :
Warrior W there is the other coast, there not much room for RCP distance 6.

3500 BC Turn 11 :
Warrior is turning N, hopefully there is some more space up there. Mine is complete, worker starts
on road.
A Roman warrior appears SW. I sell Caesar Masonry for Warrior code + 10g.

3450 BC Turn 12 :
Carthage grows to pop 3, lux up to 20%. Settler will be one turn “late”.
@Gator : In your plan, did the worker mine the bonusgrass, straight after irrigating the cow, w/o
roading the cow?

3400 BC Turn 13
Road complete, worker will go back and mine bonusgrass on the river. Warrior exploring to the north.

3350 BC Turn 14 :
Carthage produces Settler, but I have no idea where to put him?? Starts on warrior. Research up to 100% again.
Settler moves NW, there is one place on the coast distance 6 with 2 hills, 3 bonusgrass and 2 forrests but no river. Carthage and this city will cover 3 spices on expansion.

3300 BC Turn 15 :
-

3200 BC Turn 16 :
Warrior sees tundra in the north, this land is not ideal for 5CC, :)
MM Carthage to grow in one turn.

3150 BC Turn 17 :
Carthage produces warrior on growth and starts on settler. Warrior move S-SW.

3100 BC Turn 18:
Worker starts roading the bonusgrass, we are still 22 turns from writing, researching at 100% might not have been such a good idea?

3050 BC Turn 19:


3000 BC Turn 20:
Road complete, worker starts mining, I should have done it the other way around! :(
I have left the settler were I wanted the second city, but maybe one tile NE is better?
Rome has got Bronze but won't sell of course!

Score is 65, but I'm sure it'll go up as soon as we settle. :)

Here's the land:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Carthage_3000BC.png

@Gator : In your plan, did the worker mine the bonusgrass, straight after irrigating the cow, w/o roading the cow?

Must have I did not note it that way but seeing that I had the mBG ready for growth I must have.

Quick thoughts on our 20K city location, then I'm off to do some hurricane prep. We may want to go ahead and swap me to lower in the list because I'm sure we will want to have some discussion and I will probably only have this evening to play until "during" the storm.

20K discussion:
I've seen that in 5CC games moving cities around is often done. Now that we have a look at most of our area. I like the river plain tile NW of the oyster. We can let it take the mBG and the Cow from Carthage and we can relocate Carthage after cranking out some worker and other settlers.

The Oyster plain area would allow us to have a size 12 city with 24 food and 20 spt while still in Despot. Since it's on the river we don't need an aqueduct and once out of despot we would have a little food for future growth, not much though, but we would gain more shields. My numbers are using the center 2/1, mGcow 3/2, 2mBG 4/4, mGrass 2/1 and iPlain 2/1 for size 6 totals of 16 food 9 shields. Then we would add an iPlain 2/1, the metro bounus 0/1, mGrass 2/1, 3mHills 3/6, and a forest 2/1 bringing us to a total of 24 food and 20 shields.

That's my thoughts, I'll try to check back in this eveving but I won't have a chance to play anything until around 9pm tonight. If we have a plan I can play if not just move me down the list.

Looks good :thumbsup:

@Gator: I think your proposed site looks favourite for 20K. It's at radius 4, so as long as we don't settle anything else nearer than 4 it will have minimum corruption, there are three other reasonable sites at RCP 4.x if we want to start that way. Two on the coast west and north east, and one in between. Only our first two cities get river sites, so we might want to relocate a couple later if we find a better centre. IMHO RCP 6 looks too big for the space we have available. So either we don't do RCP or we move the settler we have south and wait for our third settler to start the 20K city or ....?

[EDIT] PS We might want to put one city in the river valley betwen the mountains as an advance post towards the Romans. It *could be at RCP 4, though that's a little close to the oyster site, or one tile further SW.

It does look as if we are on the original starting continent, but with the Romans as our neighbour :hmm: Worse than Persia in a way. At least Immortals can be taken down with horses, but Legions are a tougher defender. Still possible, but .... At least if they try an attack our Hoplites will have a better chance against them. We need to build up some defences in those southern mountains..

Roster:

zamint3 - Just played
DJMGator13 UP - but expecting a hurricane
leif erikson - On deck, prepare to take it if Gator can't start in time
Capt Buttkick
AlanH

Good job Zamint, thanks for getting us off and rolling. :goodjob:

I would like to think about using the capital as the 20K city. We have 2 cows, mined produce 6/4, 4 Bonus Grass, mined=8/8, plus the city in despotism provides us with 16/13 at size 6. Up to size 12 we can add 4 forests, 4/8, and 2 mined grass, 4/2. At size 12, with the city bonus, we should have 24/24 and no corruption. Later, in Republic, there are plenty of Grassland squares to mine or irrigate, depending upon our needs, and a mountain. A move 1 square to the NE would provide more shields because of the hills, but, that is the way it goes, unless we move Carthage a little bit and jump to the new city, abandoning the old?

We can not build the Colossus here, it generates 3 Culture per turn. The Palace generates 2 but will be there longer. I'm sure that the Colossus would probably produce more over a long time, but in the shorter run it may be almost a wash, but no numbers to prove it at the moment.

The problem, of course, with this is pre-building. It will require us to plan to keep a tech on hand to prevent losing a bunch of pre-built shields in a wonder cascade, so it is somewhat riskier.

Thinking a little further, I suppose we could build our second city, then place a replacement for Carthage, abandon Carthage so that the palace jumps to the second city we built, that would give us the palace to pre-build with in our new 20K city.

Enough food for thought. Hoping to generate some discussion. Got to keep our chances alive for the SPAM award!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

EDIT - Spelling and to make it more understandable?? :eek:

20 K site looks good. :goodjob:

Thinking a little further, I suppose we could build our second city, then place a replacement for Carthage, abandon Carthage so that the palace jumps to the second city we built, that would give us the palace to pre-build with in our new 20K city.
I have played a little with this thought. We could build a second city two tiles NW of Carthage, and have a RCP ring 5, I've made this optimistic version : :D

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Carthage_dotmap_3000BC.png

Moving the capital like this may slow us down to much, and we might just be better off forgetting about RCP.

Optimist! What makes you think MB will have placed iron and horses so conveniently? :p

To move our capital without going over 5 cities, I assume we'd have to build the new capital, populate and/or garrison it up to the level where it will be chosen, then abandon Carthage, all in one turn?

If we settle where he stands then that and the other two sites on your dot map are all at RCP6. The 20K city is closer but only increases the other three to rank 2.

If we settle where he stands then that and the other two sites on your dot map are all at RCP6. The 20K city is closer but only increases the other three to rank 2.
This thought got me thinking about how bad the corruption would be. I played 2 test games in vanilla using the French as thye have the same traits, although I don't think it matters. In both games I played until I had 5 vities. In the first, I spaced one at 4 and the other 3 at 6 or 6.5. In the second game I placed all 4 at 6 or 6.5. I used Ainwood's CivAssist to tell me what the corruption was in each case and took a screen shot. Here are the results:

EDIT - I'm not sure why the images aren't coming up. What they say is that for 1 city at distance 4 and 3 cities at 6 or 6.5, corruption in the capital=6%, in the 4 city=15% and in the others=24%.
In the example where all four cities are at 6 or 6.5, the capital=6% and the other cities are all=21%.
I don't think there is much difference here and, if we are not going to use Carthage as the 20K city, I think we can go ahead and use Gator's idea and build the others at 6.

The only other issue I wanted to address is this:

Get the Wheel ASAP to make sure you get horses for one city, and get Iron Working for sure before you found the fifth city. If you've not snagged Iron in the first four its worth taking your time settling the last one, and even founding a little further away from the other cities.

He doesn't address RCP so I am not sure how far I'd be willing to go. Based upon the test games, I don't think I would want to venture too far.

Hey guys I just got done spending 4 hours in my attic reinforcing my gable end roof trusses, so I don't think I'm going to get a chance to play before the storm. So why don't you move me to the bottom of the list. Based on current forecast I'm not going to like Sunday.

Last storm left me for 3 days without power and this one is going to be more of a direct hit. We're being told 75+ mph winds for my area and if it keeps west and turns later than planned I could be looking at the eye.

Hey guys I just got done spending 4 hours in my attic reinforcing my gable end roof trusses, so I don't think I'm going to get a chance to play before the storm. So why don't you move me to the bottom of the list. Based on current forecast I'm not going to like Sunday.

Lastr storm left me for 3 days without poser and this one is going to be more of a direct hit. We're being told 75+ mph winds for my area and if it keeps west and turns later than planned I could be looking at the eye.
That doesn't sound like fun. I have been through a few myself and it can be stressful wondering if everythihng is going to hold and not really being able to do much about it until it is over!! Find a safe place and hunker down, good luck Gator, hope it swerves or wobbles around and away from you. :eek:

Optimist! What makes you think MB will have placed iron and horses so conveniently? :pWell he's a nice guy, right! :joke:
If there's iron and horses the game would be way to easy, :D , we could hope for one of the two. :)

To move our capital without going over 5 cities, I assume we'd have to build the new capital, populate and/or garrison it up to the level where it will be chosen, then abandon Carthage, all in one turn?Yes, and allthough it would be interesting to do, I don't think it would be worth it. :confused:
I think we'll be best off sticking to this, unless we find a very good spot with iron and/or horses soon. On the other hand I have been playing with the idea of building the forbidden palace in a far away city, it could be done under the right, though unlikely, circumstances. ;)


If we settle where he stands then that and the other two sites on your dot map are all at RCP6. The 20K city is closer but only increases the other three to rank 2. I like this much better, and with Leifs tests, I'm in on this! :goodjob:

I have too much time this weekend, so I've made a new dotmap :) :

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Carthage_dotmap_2_3000BC.png

EDIT: @Gator: In 99 we had a small storm here in Denmark, around 22 mph, and we still talk about that, so I can't imagine the forces your are up against. :eek:

Well Frances hit my town with 50-60mph at its peak but we had 18+ hours of over 35mph winds. This one is going to be a more direct hit. We'll feel the hurrican force winds as it makes kandfall, and as of 5am its forecasted path is for it to still be a Cat 1 hurricane as it passes right over my town. Look for me Monday if I have power.

Well Frances hit my town with 50-60mph at its peak but we had 18+ hours of over 35mph winds. This one is going to be a more direct hit. We'll feel the hurrican force winds as it makes kandfall, and as of 5am its forecasted path is for it to still be a Cat 1 hurricane as it passes right over my town. Look for me Monday if I have power.
I understand Jean has a fairly large eye too, about 40 miles. The strangest thing is the calm that comes when the eye passes, sometimes for several hours. Then the back side of the eye wall hits and it is fury all over again. And it is going to hit you at night, I hate that because you can't see a thing. Good luck and be safe.

Now to the game. I guess I have it.

It looks like we want to do 3 cities at distance 6 and the 20K city to the south at distance 4. I will settle the town Zamint has up to the west. Since I haven't seen much discussion of the capital as 20K, I assume that means we want to build it to the south, so next settler south and begin a Colossus build or, if we still don't have the required tech, palace pre-build. The western city will need Rax to pump some military units and the capital can push some workers before producing another settler to improve the 20K terrain and build some pop.

Does this sound like a plan or are there other things we need to get done?

Looks like a plan, leif. Go for it :thumbsup:

Does this sound like a plan or are there other things we need to get done?Sounds good! :goodjob:

I actually feel pretty good about our decision to settle E. Sure, we could have had the settler a turn earlier, but let's look on the bright side:
1) There may be something wrong with my eyes :eek:, but looks like Carth has six 2-shield, 2+ food tiles to work which means the BG really wasn't lost.
2) With this land mass to work on, there was always going to be a little overlapping between cities. I think NE might have meant RCP at 5 (which means more overlap) or no RCP at all, (which means more corruption). Pity Carth caught two coast tiles, but it'll br a long time before they get worked anyway.

W/r to 20K city: It's in a good spot on Zamint's dotmap and it's not a bad call to put it closer to the capitol than the other 3 cities. However, if the hill 1 S of Zam's placement is on the river (which I suspect it isn't), it might be an even better choice (catch the crabs on expansion) and only 1 square overlap between the 5 cities together.

As for 20K build: Temple is always a good first build if you can trade for CB.

I actually feel pretty good about our decision to settle E. Sure, we could have had the settler a turn earlier, but let's look on the bright side:
1) There may be something wrong with my eyes :eek:, but looks like Carth has six 2-shield, 2+ food tiles to work which means the BG really wasn't lost.Amazing, but I think you're right :thumbsup:

2) With this land mass to work on, there was always going to be a little overlapping between cities. I think NE might have meant RCP at 5 (which means more overlap) or no RCP at all, (which means more corruption). Pity Carth caught two coast tiles, but it'll br a long time before they get worked anyway.The only time overlap would affect us is after Sanitation. Do we think we're going to spend much time at that end of the timeline?

W/r to 20K city: It's in a good spot on Zamint's dotmap and it's not a bad call to put it closer to the capitol than the other 3 cities. However, if the hill 1 S of Zam's placement is on the river (which I suspect it isn't), it might be an even better choice (catch the crabs on expansion) and only 1 square overlap between the 5 cities together.I already checked. No gold. It isn't on the river.

As for 20K build: Temple is always a good first build if you can trade for CB.I was thinking that, but we're beginning to rely on the Romans for a lot of research - CB *and* Pottery? They aren't usually the sharpest crayon in the box when it comes to research.

The only time overlap would affect us is after Sanitation. Do we think we're going to spend much time at that end of the timeline?
The Jason best date for 20K is 1760 AD. I hope we are far beyond Sanitation by that time! :crazyeye:

I am about to start. I checked the save and I think that even at 100% research rate we are not gaining anything. I'm considering dropping down to 10% and checking at the end of each turn to see if we get it any faster by raising the research rate. I am hoping to generate some gold for trading with Rome.

Other than that, getting that 20K city up and running and a Rax and military started are the priorities.

Be back soon... :cool:

The Jason best date for 20K is 1760 AD. I hope we are far beyond Sanitation by that time!Fairy nuff! Low overlaps it is then :D We''ll also be doing dastardly things to the AI to stop them launching, I guess.

even at 100% research rate we are not gaining anything. I'm considering dropping down to 10% and checking at the end of each turnIt's not usually worth researching at more than 10% if you are only going to gain a few turns. And IMHO, once you start at 10% it's normally best to continue at that rate, or with a single scientist, and save your cash for trading.

It's not usually worth researching at more than 10% if you are only going to gain a few turns. And IMHO, once you start at 10% it's normally best to continue at that rate, or with a single scientist, and save your cash for trading.
This was certainly the case. Between the changing pop levels as Settlers or Workers were built and the low earning of GPT, we gained nothing in tech research at 100%. See After Action Report for further details.

OK, 10 turns done and here they are.

Pre-flight 3000 BC
Settler founds the town of Utica and production is set to Barracks.
We are currently researching Writing at 100% and have 21 turns remaining. Change the research slider to 10% and we still have 21 turns remaining but are gaining 5 GPT. Leave the slider at 10% and will check it before changing turn to see where we are.
Everything else is OK, so I press enter.

IBT
Boring – But that can be good. ;)

Turn 21 – 2950 BC
Southern Warrior W, finds sheep on hills and plains.
Northern Warrior NE.
Carthage grows to size 3, so lux slider to 10%. Check research slider and we gain 1 turn at 100%, but we need 10% lux, so I set research slider back to 10%.

IBT
Zzzz

Turn 22 – 2900 BC
Southern Warrior W.
Northern Warrior S.
MM Carthage, change a citizen from a forest to a BG for more food. Settler next turn.
Check research slider and, at 100% we can get it faster, but still have lux required. Making 6 GPT.

IBT
Carthage Settler –> Worker.

Turn 23 – 2850 BC
Settler S and SW.
Worker SW and W.
N. Warrior SW.
S. Warrior W.
Change lux slider to 0% and research slider to 20%, as there isn’t enough gold because of the settler to hasten research.

IBT
ZZZzzz

Turn 24 – 2800 BC
Worker mines.
Settler S.
S. Warrior SW.
N. Warrior S.
No change in sliders.

IBT
ZZZzz

Turn 25 – 2750 BC
Settler founds the town of Leptis Magna, our 20K city, and production is set to Palace.
N. Warrior SW onto road.
S. Warrior SW.
I finally get a response from Caesar when I ask for Bronze Working and it is not very nice. What happened to those nice neighbors Zamint? :rolleyes: He wants 44 Gold plus 6 GPT for BW. Sorry, not right now. At least he is polite about it.

IBT
ZZzzz

Turn 26 – 2710 BC
N. Warrior waits in case of Barbs.
S. Warrior S.
Change Lux slider to 0%.
For some reason Caesar is now Cautious towards us, not a good sign. :p

IBT
Carthage Worker –> Worker.

Turn 27 – 2670 BC
New Worker S and SW.
Worker roads.
N. Warrior stays put.
S. Warrior E.
With Carthage returning to pop 1, research slider moves to 20%.
Caesar still wants 6 GPT in addition to the 57 Gold we have accumulated.

IBT
ZZzz

Turn 28 – 2630 BC
Worker roads.
N. Warrior NE onto hill for a look around.
S. Warrior SE.
Caesar will now trade BW for 63 Gold plus 5 GPT.
MM Utica from BG to Forest as corruption increased when we founded Leptis Magna, sorry, should have noticed it earlier.

IBT
ZZzzz

Turn 29 – 2590 BC
Worker S.
N. Warrior E.
S. Warrior E, spots a Roman Warrior and Settler.

IBT
Watch the Romans settler Antium. The got Wool in the deal. :sad: The city blocks all our access to the south without making Caesar angry for treading on his beloved land. :eek:

Turn 30 – 2550 BC
S. Warrior E.
Worker mines.
Worker moves into and joins Leptis Magna.
N. Warrior NW.

After Action Report
Our 20K city is built and has started on a Palace pre-build. In 5 turns it will grow to size 3 and then there will be unhappiness.

The research slider is set to 20% and Writing is due in 11 turns. The treasury has 75 Gold in it. I did not expand the military as there is a Barracks being built in Utica, due in 12 turns. Carthage grows in 1 turn to size 2 and the worker will probably pop then as well. If you want to change it, it must be done during pre-flight. Although, before we go any further, we may want to consider building this worker and roading towards Utica and building a Colony on the spices to save on Lux slider.

Please feel free to change any build you think you need to. Good luck Capt., hope you find a nice vacation spot in this one, although there will only be 5 big, noisy, nasty cities. :mischief:
<< The Save >> (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Xteam_SG004_BC2550_01.SAV)

What happened to those nice neighbors Zamint? :rolleyes: :lol: No worries they are just stuck in the fog for a while. ;)
Caesar is not the one we wan't as our neighbour, we should deal with him before he gets iron. :ar15:

Carthage grows in 1 turn to size 2 and the worker will probably pop then as well. If you want to change it, it must be done during pre-flight.I think we should let Carthage grow a bit and produce a couple of warriors for MP duty. The warriors can be promoted against barbs. We should use all our improved tiles, so Carthage imho should alternate between 3 and 5.

This early, all cities should focus on growth.
Utica should work the bonusgrass at all times.
Carthage should work the northern cow and let Leptis Magna use the other one, at least for some time.

Although, before we go any further, we may want to consider building this worker and roading towards Utica and building a Colony on the spices to save on Lux slider. Maybe we can wait until Carthage expands and save the worker. :confused:


Watch the Romans settler Antium. The got Wool in the deal. The city blocks all our access to the south without making Caesar angry for treading on his beloved land. We need to explore, but I'm afraid we are alone with Caesar, otherwise he would have known some other techs by now, I guess. :confused:

:thumbsup: Top score at 2550 BC :D

Given that we are not going to meet anyone else for a while tech prices are not going to go down. I'm wondering if an early archer rush might be a good idea. We have Warrior Code and can build archers. They can take on warriors and spears and we could start our scientific progress with a little pointy stick research? I actually used Indian archers to put Xerxes in his place early on first time I played this game.

Thoughts?

This early, all cities should focus on growth.
Utica should work the bonusgrass at all times.
Carthage should work the northern cow and let Leptis Magna use the other one, at least for some time.
The only reason Utica is not working the BG is that, with the increased corruption, I thought it more important to get the Barracks completed so we can begin producing Vet Warriors, it is my impatience again. I think Utica is schedule to grow in 2 turns but the Barracks still has 12 to go. If you work the BG, it will be longer. I was planning on switching to 2 BG's after it grew to keep the Barracks moving along and keep the city growing. Is it usually better to forgo the faster Barracks for growth or does the growth come soon enough that the Barracks would come at the same time anyway? :crazyeye: Guess I should have figured that out before executing it?? :blush: Someday I'll get the hang of this MM stuff.
Given that we are not going to meet anyone else for a while tech prices are not going to go down. I'm wondering if an early archer rush might be a good idea. We have Warrior Code and can build archers. They can take on warriors and spears and we could start our scientific progress with a little pointy stick research? I actually used Indian archers to put Xerxes in his place early on first time I played this game.

I think this an excellent idea. :goodjob: If we let him get too big, it will not be a good thing. :hammer: :spank: We may want to get at least one more city built to support producing Archers?

Is it usually better to forgo the faster Barracks for growth or does the growth come soon enough that the Barracks would come at the same time anyway?Emphasise growth early on. MM at the end of a build to emphasise shields for a turn or two if it will bring the unit/improvement in faster, but normally it's best to get the extra pop fast to produce more shields and gold .....

Emphasise growth early on. MM at the end of a build to emphasise shields for a turn or two if it will bring the unit/improvement in faster, but normally it's best to get the extra pop fast to produce more shields and gold .....
OK, thanks. I learned again. :goodjob: Utica has been off the BG for 2 turns. Moving the citizen back means growth next turn, which I should have thought of! :blush:

Go Capt.!! :D

Just realised I didn't republish the list after Gator requested a change:

zamint3
leif erikson - Just played
Capt Buttkick UP
AlanH - On deck
DJMGator13 - Battened down and moved to the end of the list as requested

Captain - you're up.

:thumbsup: Top score at 2550 BC :D
The others must still have their second settler running around looking for a good spot. :)

We may want to get at least one more city built to support producing Archers?Yes, at least, but no more than two. ;)

The others must still have their second settler running around looking for a good spot. :)
Hmm! I'm guessing from their scoreline that Peanuts went walkabout for a while before settling their first one.

Hmm! I'm guessing from their scoreline that Peanuts went walkabout for a while before settling their first one.I wonder why? :confused:
...and I did mean third settler (second produced) :)

BTW zamint3. Congrats on your early finish in GOTM35. Knights and galleys?! I'm hoping to learn some tricks from you in this game :)

:goodjob:, leif
I'll prob let the cities grow a bit before popping the next settler or worker. In doing that, I'll focus on rax and archers. EDIT: Or maybe just archers?
What's our research choice after Writing (in case Ceasar pops it and wants to trade)?
Btw, not a 'got it.' I'm playing football this evening and will play after that.

What's our research choice after Writing (in case Ceasar pops it and wants to trade)?
Literature and the Great Library?? :D

EDIT - Or Bronze Working to support the Archers? :crazyeye: This brings up the issue of early Golden Age. While I think we want to avoid this, if Rome gets Iron, I don't know if we will have a choice.

Well, it's 3AM and I need to turn in ;) I didn't get to this game. Sorry guys, but I've finished Cotm so I'll have to do this tomorrow. Normally I'd prioritize this, but I got caught by the just-one-more-turn syndrom again :sigh:

I hope we don't need to research BW. Towards Lit then or should we get to the gov switch asap?

Btw: Where can I check out the Jason best dates?

Btw: Where can I check out the Jason best dates?
COTM04 was a long haul.

I posted the Jason best dates in the first part of this thread. However, it can be found in the Jason Calculator Page << HERE >> (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/calculator/index.php)

For 20K, don't we need The Great Library?? :confused:

Have a good night's sleep. :mischief: :D

No problem Captain. You've only been up for a few hours, and we're not trying to break any records. Addictive, isn't it :D

I think we should build some archers, preferably vets, and send them to negotiate with Caesar for Bronze Working and any other goodies he has. The F4 screen is all well and good, but sometimes the prices are just downright unreasonable :rolleyes:.

Jason dates are in the calculator (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/index.php). Select GOTM 28. I don't know whether MB wants to adjust them for the different traits Carthage vs India, but they would probably only shift by 5-10 turns or so.

I posted the Jason best dates in the first part of this thread. However, it can be found in the Jason Calculator Page << HERE >> (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/calculator/index.php)
Cross-posted :)

For 20K, don't we need The Great Library?? :confused:That's correct. Literature is a priority.

I agree GLib is essential in this game so we're probably better off with a detour to Lit. The only prob in doing this is that we reduce the price of Lit so the AI may choose to research it before the Collossus/Pyramids cascade.

I agree GLib is essential in this game so we're probably better off with a detour to Lit. The only prob in doing this is that we reduce the price of Lit so the AI may choose to research it before the Collossus/Pyramids cascade.Good point, but if we're allready prebuilding we should be OK! (I hope!) :)

Good point, but if we're allready prebuilding we should be OK! (I hope!) :)
I was hoping to build another worker or 2 to help our 20K city grow and be more productiive for the pre-build. But you were right that we need some MP duty units to keep the peace. However, we should probably, after making enough Archers, get some MP's into the city and get it growing so that we have the shields to build The Great Library. Of course, that means a worker imporving the terrain to support the new citizens.

Seems like there is an awful lot to do in the early game here. :crazyeye:

BTW - I hope Gator faired alright. It was nasty as the storm slowed and hung around, making the damage even worse. I'm not sure exactly where he lives butthe damage was widespread. We may not hear from him for a couple of days as:

The storm peeled the roofs off buildings, toppled light poles, destroyed a deserted community center in Jensen Beach and flooded some bridges from the mainland to the Atlantic coast's barrier islands. Utilities estimated more than 2.5 million homes and businesses were without power late Sunday.
....chop...
The storm unleashed several inches of rain in many areas. Official Sunday-night totals included 5.84 inches in Melbourne, 5.35 inches in Orlando and 2.69 inches at Palm Beach International Airport, but meteorologists said the actual totals probably were much higher because heavy winds can make rain gauges inaccurate.

Got it and played it:

Sgotm3 2550 - 2150 B.C.

Preflight - MM Utica to grow next turn. Switch build in Carth to Rax. MM Carth to mined cow. MM Leptis Magna to irrigated cow.
Turn 1 - 2510 B.C. 10% sci. Both warriors go S. Ceasar now wants 81 gold + 4gpt for BW.
IBT: Caesar turns cautious and wants us to move out of his territory. Pictish warrior 2 N of Utica :(
Turn 2 - 2470 B.C. Switch build in Utica to Archer, loosing a shield. Both wars S. I could have MM'ed Leptis Magna here, but nothing to be gained anywhere afaics...
IBT: Caesar is annoyed and kicks us out. Utica Archer --> Rax.
Turn 3 - 2430 B.C. 20% lux. Worker road. Both wars move towards Leptis Magna. Archer defeats Pict warrior, loosing a HP.
IBT: Nothing.
Turn 4 - 2390 B.C. No lux.
IBT: Nothing.
Turn 5 - 2350 B.C. Archer N. Worker NE, mine.
IBT: Nothing
Turn 6 - 2310 B.C. Archer NE, kills pict, spots ivory.
IBT: Carth Rax --> Worker.
Turn 7 - 2270 B.C. Archer N. It's ivory galore up here.
IBT: Nothing.
Turn 8 - 2230 B.C. Archer N. 10% lux. MM Carth to growth + gold. MM Leptis Magna to growth. Worker SW SW.
IBT: Carth Worker --> Archer.
Turn 9 - 2190 B.C. 0 lux. Worker1 irrigates. Worker2 NE. Disperse a barb camp with the archer, loose 2 HPs.
IBT: Palace expansion.
Turn 10 - 2150 B.C. Worker2 NE. Archer S. MM Utica for slower growth (waiting for MP when the archer returns home).

Summary: Built worker, archer, rax. We've got 3 cities, total pop is 8. Firaxis score is 115, Rome has 122.
Rome had CB for a few turns, but I think we should trade him writing for both his techs. In a single game, I'd prob trade gold for CB and switch to temple in Leptis Magna, but I didn't want to gamble leif's prebuild :)

zamint3
leif erikson
Capt Buttkick - Just played
AlanH UP
DJMGator13 - On deck, if he still has one :eek:

Good work Capt. I guess we can always build a temple, but we only get one chance to build a Great Library. I'll grab it and have a look and see if there's anything to discuss before I wade in.

The city blocks all our access to the south without making Caesar angry for treading on his beloved land.
I just checked the save, and the water near Antium is fresh. It's not part of the west coast. So there's land to the west of that lake for possible access further south for future reference.

I just checked the save, and the water near Antium is fresh. It's not part of the west coast. So there's land to the west of that lake for possible access further south for future reference.
Very good observation, I never thought to check. :blush: You're absolutely right!! :goodjob: M-B has been busy playing with this map!! :mischief: I said earlier that I felt like I was falling into a trap, guess I had better get more observant.

A couple of things I noticed on the save that may be obvious. The palace pre-build is only a total of 300 shields, I guess for the AA. The Great Library is 400 to build. Not having ever pre-built this early, should watch that number of shields produced versus the time to research Literature. Until we get Writing, I'm not sure how long Lit. will require. That also means we will have a minimum of 101 shields to produce to make The Great Library a reality, probably more.

I'd forgotten about the Ivory up north, nice find. Two lux is always better than 1. :D

Ceasar is willing to part with Ceremonial Burial for 90 Gold, and both Bronze Working and CB for all our Gold plus 3 GPT. If we decide to stick with the pre-build for The Great Library, which I think we should, that means that techs will be available via pointy stick soon enough. I would hold Writing to keep the value up? Although, last game I seemed to make every tech call wrong, :eek: so I'm listening to see how you think this through! :cry:

It would be nice to get another city built to produce Archers and protect Carthage somewhat from Barbs, wouldn't hurt the score either. ;)

My two cents. Good luck Alan, keep us moving. :thumbsup:

DJMGator13 - On deck, if he still has one :eek:


No deck at the house in the first place and now no fence. Other then the fence house faired well. Surprisingly I kept my power although my cable (and internet) was out for 24hours.

Not sure what the lineup is but if I'm up soon go ahead and skip me. I'm probably still several days away from being able to play, too much to clean up and need to figure out how to take down a 20ft water oak tree that uprooted and is leaning towards my parents house. Its only being held up because the roots went under a fence and the fence is currently supporting it, so it won't last long.

No deck at the house in the first place and now no fence. Other then the fence house faired well. Surprisingly I kept my power although my cable (and internet) was out for 24hours.
Very glad to hear you have come through!! :goodjob: Hope all is relatively well down there. While it will be nothing like you saw, we get the remnants tomorrow, lots of rain and some wind. :rolleyes:

Got it and played it:

Sgotm3 2550 - 2150 B.C. Sorry Capt you'll have to do it all over, we've moved on to Sgotm4! :lol:

That also means we will have a minimum of 101 shields to produce to make The Great Library a reality, probably more. We can prebuild the Pyramids. :)
At 100% we should be able to get Litt in about 20 turns.


I would hold Writing to keep the value up?Will the value go down if the other civs don't know that we and the Romans have it? :confused:

It would be nice to get another city built to produce Archers and protect Carthage somewhat from Barbs, wouldn't hurt the score either.I think Utica should build a settler, and then some reg archers for barb hunting. We will be doing a lot of barbhunting in this game, gaining a lot of money and promotions? :D

Welcome back, Gator. Good to see that you came through that alright (how far away from the eye were you?).

Edit: btw, I live on the westcoast of Norway where hurricanes aren't uncommon, although nowhere near as fierce as those you face. This year, however, we've hardly had any storms so far (fingers crossed :rolleyes: ).
In fact, people are joking about this season's wheather. This picture was posted to a norwegian newspaper's online division, tongue in cheek, clearly picturing the massive damage that the last storm did to this poor homeowner :eek:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/herjinger1.jpg

Alan is up. If he plays anytime soon, I propose we switch Zamint and Gator before resuming original order of play.

Sorry Capt you'll have to do it all over, we've moved on to Sgotm4!
:lol: I'll try to change that in my log when I next play. Don't rely on it, though :rolleyes:

Will the value go down if the other civs don't know that we and the Romans have it?
I don't think it does. I'd say it's a surprising bug if it does. We don't gain anything from unknown civs knowing techs that we don't know.

W/r to Utica's build: I forgot to mention in my turnlog that I think Utica would benefit from a settler and/or worker before switching to rax --> archers.

Will the value go down if the other civs don't know that we and the Romans have it? :confused:
Read somewhere, and of course I can't find it now, that the more civs that have a tech, the cheaper that tech becomes to research. I am not sure if you have to be aware of the other civs or not. It seems that for tech trading, you do have to know them for the value to drop. So, I am unsure of the game mechanics behind it. ;)

I see that there is some harsh weather at The Capt.'s Cabin this year!!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Welcome to the other side of the storm, Gator. Glad to see you came though without too much pain. Do you know how Scout faired?

I've GOT IT, of course, and I'll probably play and post tonight. As you've not played yet, I'll keep slipping you down the roster until you're ready. So my guess is that zamint3 should move on deck.

@leif: My guess is that each civ within the game has a single value for each tech, used to calculate all costs and prices, and it varies as the civ researches it, and if they know more civs who have it. If so, sharing Writing with the Romans will not reduce its cost for unknown civs across the water.

MB didn't tinker with that bit of the map. I confess the reason I checked the saltiness of that water was because I remember well having two canal cities on opposite sides of that lake in gotm28 that allowed ship movements between the two oceans :mischief:

@leif: My guess is that each civ within the game has a single value for each tech, used to calculate all costs and prices, and it varies as the civ researches it, and if they know more civs who have it. If so, sharing Writing with the Romans will not reduce its cost for unknown civs across the water.
I hope you're right because I would sure hate to lose The Great Library by a turn or two. Of course, the other problem I have had in GOTM is that another civ will, it seems, get Literature from a Goody Hut as they don't usually research it and beat me to the GL. That is the one reason I rarely practice tech denial early on any more.
MB didn't tinker with that bit of the map. I confess the reason I checked the saltiness of that water was because I remember well having two canal cities on opposite sides of that lake in gotm28 that allowed ship movements between the two oceans :mischief:
So now I go from less observant to senility!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

(how far away from the eye were you?).

Alan is up. If he plays anytime soon, I propose we switch Zamint and Gator before resuming original order of play.

The eye passed just to the south then southwest of Leesburg, probably about 30 miles away. Our official weather station here went offline at midnight when the storm was just making landfall, so we have no official wind readings. The town 10 miles north (so further away from the eye) reported sustained winds in the 50s and a max gust of around 65. We had close to 24hours of sustained 30mph with gusts of 40 plus. 12 hours of that time we were probably at 40mph sustained with gusts in the 50s.

BTW, the switch with Zamit sounds good.

Turn 40 2150 BC Preflight
Changed Utica to settler and changed its tile assignments to grow next turn
Changed Leptis Manga to Pyramids as a 400 shield pre-build for Great Library - also 400 shields.

IBT Learn Writing, start Literature. Utica grows to pop 3.

Turn 41 2110 BC
Worker starts mining BG near Carthage
Worker starts road near Leptis
Consider various happiness options for Utica.
(a) Just use lux slider to get 1gpt entertainment in Utica - we spend 7gpt at 50% :eek:
(b) Work a coast tile in Utica for some gold - we spend 3gpt at 30%
(c) Hire a scientist in Utica and set sliders to 10.0.0. I like that best :)

Redlined archer moves back towards Utica.

Do we trade with Caesar now or wait until he has more techs? I decide that if we wait we risk him demanding Writing. we'd have to cave in, and we'd end up getting nothing for it. So I swap Writing for CB and Bronze.

Turn 42 2070 BC
Archer continues towards Utica

IBT Carthage completes archer, starts archer. Leptis grows to pop 5

Turn 43 2030 BC
MM Carthage to grow next turn
Slider 9.0.1 to keep Leptis happy
Mil advisor warns of barbs near Leptis. Move new archer to Leptis to investigate.
Move sourthern worker to forest SW of Carthage.
Northern archer approaches Utica.

Caesar now has Wheel and Iron Working. Wants 2gpt+214 for IW or 176 for Wheel.
I decide to spend, and opt for the Wheel to see if MB put our horses within reach. I like horses. We spend 176 and we have no horses :(

IBT Caesar asks for 21 gold. Teeth clenched we say Yes :gripe:

Turn 44 1990 BC
Archer SW out of Leptis
Wounded archer into Utica
Worker starts road on Carthage BG
Utica fires its scientist to build a settler in 2 turns
Worker starts forest chop near Carthage.
Slider 8.1.1 to keep research at 40 turn rate. We get Literature 2 turns before our pre-build completes.

Turn 45 1950 BC Archer SW to mountain

IBT Settler at Utica, start barracks

Turn 46 1910 BC
Worker to tile south of spices. carthage expands again in 12 turns and will encompass the spices
Southern archer SW in mountains. Still can't see any of these mythical barbs :hmm:
Settler south out of Utica

IBT Carthage archer -> archer

Turn 47 1870 BC
Southern archer West. Sees a wounded Roman vet warrior. Looks like this is where the barbs are.
Worker starts a road south of the spice.
Settler south
Rome has Pottery. Wants 57 + 1gpt. Wait a turn to buy for cash.

IBT Roman warrior is killed by a barb in the fog. Carthage grows to pop 4

Turn 48 1830 BC
Southern archer north in mountains to meet settler coming south
Buy Pottery from Rome for 75 gold

IBT The worst-timed chop ever finishes south of Carthage, as Carthage completes archer :smoke: Barb appears near Utica.

Turn 49 1790 BC Worker starts road on cleared tile. Worker moves to spice. New archer moves NW from Carthage towards barb threat.

IBT Barb moves to forest outside Utica

Turn 50 1750 BC Archer from Utica kills barb. Redlined :eek: No promotion.
Worker starts road on spices.

After action report
Still kicking myself over that forest chop. Also wondering if I should have held off trading Writing for a couple of turns - might have got Wheel and spent less? Or should I have bought IW to find iron instead of Wheel?

The settler is currently one tile away from the SW dot in our original map. HOWEVER! I moved him on the track directly south to keep another option open. Below is a map with "A" marking our city location that can reach the rocks. "B" marks an alternative site, also at distance 6.x, that snags a strategic position on a hill in the valley SW of Leptis, with two bonus tiles in reach when it expands. I haven't moved the settler or the archer yet.

zamint3 UP
DJMGator13 - On deck
leif erikson - also on deck in case Gator's not ready when zamint3 posts
Capt Buttkick
AlanH - Just played

As always, zamin3, feel free to change anything. For example I think the idea of building a couple of regular archers in Utica instead of a barracks is good. They'll have plenty of promotion opportunities.

B is a bit too cramped imhso. I think we'll just have to do a very fast archer push against Caesar here or we're in big trouble regardless of where the settler goes. If I'm not all wrong :crazyeye:, site B will not grow over size 7 before rails (or is the sheep resource + 2?, I always forget... Not that it matters to my conlusion if the city can get to size 8).
I vote we settle at A.

After action report
Still kicking myself over that forest chop. Also wondering if I should have held off trading Writing for a couple of turns - might have got Wheel and spent less? Or should I have bought IW to find iron instead of Wheel?
You can't be perfect all the time! :) :mischief: Good job!! :goodjob:
The question is does Ceasar know someone else or is he getting all this tech from GH's?
The settler is currently one tile away from the SW dot in our original map. HOWEVER! I moved him on the track directly south to keep another option open. Below is a map with "A" marking our city location that can reach the rocks. "B" marks an alternative site, also at distance 6.x, that snags a strategic position on a hill in the valley SW of Leptis, with two bonus tiles in reach when it expands. I haven't moved the settler or the archer yet.
I have been looking at the B site for a while now contemplating whether to recommend changing to that position as well. With Rome to the south, I liked it's defense bonus, the block it creates across the south of our little empire and the food resources. However, with our 20K city where it is, I don't think that location has enough advantages to building there. It will take a few tiles from our 20K city later on, is surrounded by mountains that a def=3 Legion can sit on and not be dislodged and can not provide enough food to sustain growth past 7 or 8. The disadvantages seem to outweigh the advantages, but I could still be swayed by a "good" argument. :D

IW was obviousy in his Caesar's set for a while, but it only appeared after we got Bronze. My guess is he finished Wheel right after I swapped the other techs.

I'd like to look at the bonus values of those sheep (or are they lambs?) but the A site is probably better. I just didn't want to eliminate the option without discussion.

IW was obviousy in his Caesar's set for a while, but it only appeared after we got Bronze. My guess is he finished Wheel right after I swapped the other techs.

I'd like to look at the bonus values of those sheep (or are they lambs?) but the A site is probably better. I just didn't want to eliminate the option without discussion.
Sheep, Lambs, I can't remember. :blush: iirc, I think that one is Sheep and the other is Lambs. Its that senility things again!! :rolleyes:

Both sites read as 2 Food and 2 Shields. So the bonus to the Plains square is 1 Food and 1 Shield while to the Hills square it is 1 Food and 0 Shields. Irrigating the plains should yield 3 Food in other than Despotism. The hills, of course, can't be irrigated.

Bringing up the option is always a good things as it requires me to think, for whatever that is worth... :rolleyes: :blush:

Good job Alan :goodjob:
Sorry about the chop, I do this all the time in C3C, forgetting it's only 4 turns. :mad:
I think I'll stay with A for our next city.


The question is does Ceasar know someone else or is he getting all this tech from GH's?He got CB, The Wheel and Iron very fast, he can only have researched one of these himself, and getting two techs from GH's when we haven't seen any would be very evil of MB. :) He must know some other civ, but weren't we alone with Persia in the original GOTM28 ?? :confused:
We must explore to the south! How do you feel about eventually building an embassy and signing a ROP with Caesar?

If I get the time I'll play tonight, otherwise in 20 hours!

He got CB, The Wheel and Iron very fast, he can only have researched one of these himself, and getting two techs from GH's when we haven't seen any would be very evil of MB. :) He must know some other civ, but weren't we alone with Persia in the original GOTM28 ?? :confused:
We must explore to the south! How do you feel about eventually building an embassy and signing a ROP with Caesar?
In Gotm 28, iirc, we were alone with X Man. And we had no iron or horses! :cry:

Now that we have Writing, I think we should establish an embassy with Ceasar. It will tell us where Rome is and if he has any other contacts. If there are others around then we can decide what to do regarding ROP, paying for contacts or war. If our Archer rush is successful, we may be able to pick up contacts as part of the peace agreement. Is that called pointy stick diplomacy?? :lol: :lol:

Now that we have Writing, I think we should establish an embassy with Ceasar. It will tell us where Rome is and if he has any other contacts. Yes, I forgot, I have been playing too much C3C lately. :lol:

:lol:, I suppose so Leif.
If Caesar doesn't know anyone else, we should consider our options (while keeping in line with gotm rules ;)), asess his military and attack with archers asap. This is top priority now that Caesar has IW.

:lol:, I suppose so Leif.
If Caesar doesn't know anyone else, we should consider our options (while keeping in line with gotm rules ;)), asess his military and attack with archers asap. This is top priority now that Caesar has IW.
It will also be nice to know where his Iron source is, and I hope there is only one. Resource denial, as a part of our attack, should make things a lot easier.

Did you want to step out of line with the rules?? What exactly do you have in mind Capt.? :mischief: :blush: Does it require a PM?? :lol: :lol:

It will also be nice to know where his Iron source is, and I hope there is only one. Resource denial, as a part of our attack, should make things a lot easier.

Did you want to step out of line with the rules?? What exactly do you have in mind Capt.? :mischief: :blush: Does it require a PM?? :lol: :lol:

:lol: Yes, I admit I'm up to no good :mischief:
I was thinking specifically of doing an RoP abuse.
Edit: I must also concede that I've never done RoP abuse in one of my own games.

:lol: Yes, I admit I'm up to no good :mischief:
I was thinking specifically of doing an RoP abuse.
Edit: I must also concede that I've never done RoP abuse in one of my own games.
iirc, ROP abuse is allowed under the GOTM rules. As long as the victim doesn't live to tell the tale, your reputation is kept clean. So, you can't allow them to survive your attack!! ;)

Good job Alan :goodjob:
Sorry about the chop, I do this all the time in C3C, forgetting it's only 4 turns. :mad:
I think I'll stay with A for our next city.


He got CB, The Wheel and Iron very fast, he can only have researched one of these himself, and getting two techs from GH's when we haven't seen any would be very evil of MB. :) He must know some other civ, but weren't we alone with Persia in the original GOTM28 ?? :confused:
We must explore to the south! How do you feel about eventually building an embassy and signing a ROP with Caesar?

If I get the time I'll play tonight, otherwise in 20 hours!

I'd be very surprised if there's anyone else in the south of our continent. There really wasn't enough room for two down there in the original game. And I can't see how Caesar can have contact with the other continent yet either.

Caesar had BW by turn 20. He had CB before turn 40 and probably had IW by then as well. During my turns he acquired Wheel at turn 42 and Pottery at turn 48. That's 5 techs in 50 turns - more like Deity rate than Monarch :eek: It looks like he has a major source of gpt at his disposal for research, or he must have popped a couple of goodie huts. :hmm:

Those two tiles are hills/sheep and plains/sheep.

Hills + sheep + mine and road = 1.1.0 + 2.1.0 +0.2.1 = 3.4.1 (2.3.1 despot)

Plains + sheep + irrig and road = 1.1.0 + 2.1.0 +1.0.1 = 4.2.1 (3.2.1 despot)

Even after rails we'd only get to pop 9 using 4 overlap tiles from Leptis, and that would limit Leptis to 16 productive citizens. Site A can reach max population (with an aqueduct) with only one overlap with Leptis. So I agree we should build at A.

Hey guys, I'm without internet connection after the storm. I had it for a little while Monday and then it went out. Don't know how long it will be off. Other than that I doing OK. I'm hoping it comes back soon. I'm posting this from a friends house.

I played one turn, and that's all I have time for today, I have to :sleep: , allthough I doubt I can with this picture in my mind :cry: :

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Rome_1700_BC.png

Hey! They're only hoplites when you attack them :rolleyes: If this is his first build (let's hope) we'll just have to get down there fast with some archers and point out how unhelpful he's being :D

I played one turn, and that's all I have time for today, I have to :sleep: , allthough I doubt I can with this picture in my mind :cry:
Hope that you got a good night's sleep Zamint, hopefully with no nightmares!! :rolleyes:

This picture tells me that Rome is sitting on his source of Iron. M-B is quite unkind. :eek: Guess we are going to have to make a plan to reduce Rome to rubble, or make Ceasar our newest Best Friend!! :crazyeye:
Hey! They're only hoplites when you attack them :rolleyes: If this is his first build (let's hope) we'll just have to get down there fast with some archers and point out how unhelpful he's being :D
@Alan-I must say that I appreciate that, no matter the problem, you are always so cheery. :cool:

I also read in the Maintenance Thread that the only change M-B said he made was to make sources of Iron inexhaustable!! :lol: Thanks a bunch M-B!! :p

This picture tells me that Rome is sitting on his source of Iron.Not sure about that. First, we need to know if Rome's on a hill. zamint3 should be able to tell us - my reference says iron only happens in hills and mountains. Second, in an embassy or investigation screen, you don't see roads outside the city radius, or roads connecting to tiles outside it. There's a road going south out of Rome to the wheat, but it may go further and he may get his iron from that direction.

Alan-I must say that I appreciate that, no matter the problem, you are always so cheeryWell, I'd rather be an optimist - pessimists are so insufferable, being right all the time :hmm:

No horses, with a single neighbour sitting on a hill on the only source of iron, building one of the stronger Ancient Age UUs, and with a seemingly gratuitous head start on techs, would make a pretty rough start :eek: I really can't believe MB has configured this one to create multiple losing teams again. Either we have our own iron, or Caesar's is at least reachable.

Not sure about that. First, we need to know if Rome's on a hill. zamint3 should be able to tell us - my reference says iron only happens in hills and mountains. Second, in an embassy or investigation screen, you don't see roads outside the city radius, or roads connecting to tiles outside it. There's a road going south out of Rome to the wheat, but it may go further and he may get his iron from that direction.
I don't have the save to check and you are probably correct. I didn't immediately pick up the road to the south as it is under the name banner, but with my glasses on, I can see it when I look closely! ;) We'll find it soon enough when we decide to take a trip south to visit.
Well, I'd rather be an optimist - pessimists are so insufferable, being right all the time :hmm:
I was actually trying to pay you a compliment. :salute: It is always better to look on the bright side of life. That has been one of the joys of working with this team, everything is looked at as a problem that can be resolved. And we go about working together to do just that.
No horses, with a single neighbour sitting on a hill on the only source of iron, building one of the stronger Ancient Age UUs, and with a seemingly gratuitous head start on techs, would make a pretty rough start :eek: I really can't believe MB has configured this one to create multiple losing teams again. Either we have our own iron, or Caesar's is at least reachable.
We shall soon find the answers to the puzzle. We have only a few pieces thus far but will soon find more. :yeah:

This picture tells me that Rome is sitting on his source of Iron. I don't think we can see the iron when we don't have Iron Working. ;)

btw. No contacts and Caesar wants 3 gpt for ROP.

Rome is not on an iron hill. That would give the city square 2 shields. See cotm5 pregame discussion ;)

Looking further at the picture: I'll bet the iron is on the hill NE of Rome. This is prob the first Leg, cause no other cities are connected and Caesar is rather fond of using his Legs as MP in the capitol :lol:

Looking further at the picture: I'll bet the iron is on the hill NE of Rome. This is prob the first Leg, cause no other cities are connected and Caesar is rather fond of using his Legs as MP in the capitol :lol:
There's no road on that hill. I agree it's probably his first legion, though he was having trouble with barbs in my turns, and may have decided to send one out to curb the threat.

I think that may be a graphics glitch:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Rome_1700_BC.jpg

Looks like a road to me ;)

I don't think we can see the iron when we don't have Iron Working. ;)
How right you are... :blush: :blush:
btw. No contacts and Caesar wants 3 gpt for ROP.
Greedy, isn't he? :eek: If he keeps that tech pace, we're in trouble. Must have been GH's, I hope. :confused:

Turnlog SGotm 4, zamint3
1750 BC Preflight
Settler moves to spot A.
Archer will go south exploring

IBT: Barb warrior appears just E of redlined archer. :eek:

1725 BC Turn 51 :
Theveste founded on A, starts on barracks.
Establish an embassy with Rome for 36g. It’s all bad news! :cry: Rome has iron and is 6 turns away from his first (?) legionary, and there’s a cow and wheat. No contacts! He wants 3 gpt for ROP and 14 gpt for Iron Working.

IBT:
Caesar founded Pompei on the coast NW of Antium.

1700 BC Turn 52 :
Carthage archer -> archer.
Utica open for ransacking barb, don’t want to risk the redlined archer.

IBT :
Utica ransacked for 4g. :lol:

1675 BC Turn 53 :
Change production in Utica to worker.
Leptis Magna grows to pop 6, lux up to 20%

1650 BC Turn 54 :
Vet archer disperses a barb camp N of Pompei.

1625 BC Turn 55 :
Carthage archer -> settler
Utica worker -> archer.

1600 BC Turn 56 :
-

1575 BC Turn 57 :
Two archers are barb hunting in the north.

1550 BC Turn 8 :
Archer is paying a visit to Caesar.

IBT :
Caesar ask us to leave, we agree!

1525 BC Turn 59 :
Carthage settler -> spartan hoplite
Leptis magna grows to pop 7, we hire a scientist.

IBT :
Roman borders expand and our archer is cought in Roman territory.

1500 BC Turn 60 :
Settler is on the move to our last city-location.
Worker has just chopped a forrest E of Carthage
The archers up north has searched the area for barbs without finding any.
Two archers and a vorker has not been moved.
I've got no clear build order so feel free to change anything. :)

Caesar wants 124g + 7gpt for Iron and 44g for ROP.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Southern_Empire_1500bc.png

:goodjob: Zamint. I like what I see: Spartan being built in Carthage :)

I was thinking: we've got no horse. If we've got no iron as well, can we then do combined arms? [pimp]


Please? :cool:

Good morning gentlemen. I got my internet connection back this morning.

I see Zamit has just posted, if nobody has grabbed the next turnset yet I can. I need to cath up on the current discussion first.

Go for it. Gator. And welcome back :thumbsup:

I was thinking: we've got no horse. If we've got no iron as well, can we then do combined arms? [pimp] Maybe, if you ask nicely. :mischief:


Please? :cool: OK, I'm in. :lol: :D :lol:


Perhaps we should try to be friendly with Caesar for a while. :)

Welcome back Gator, go for it. :thumbsup:

Perhaps we should try to be friendly with Caesar for a while. :)
Yes, maybe. Perhaps we should do some calcs between archer rushing him now and waiting for Cats/Spartans? I haven't got the time for it today and probably not tomorrow, though...

Yes, maybe. Perhaps we should do some calcs between archer rushing him now and waiting for Cats/Spartans? I haven't got the time for it today and probably not tomorrow, though...
Just for fun, I did some quick and dirty scribbling on the back of some paper. ;)

Utica and Theveste can have a Rax each in 9 turns, considering their growth and corruption. A quick estimate for an army of 12 additional Archers supported by 6 Spartan Hoplites requires an additional 27 to 30 turns. The new city will require about 17 or 18 turns to a Rax.

We are currently researching Lit at 10% (one Scientist). Raising the research rate to 70% (including the Scientist) will give us Lit in 14 turns, gaining 7 turns, but we will only be making +2 GPT. The big decision of doing Combined Arms is taking another detour from Republic to get Math in order to build Cats. We might be able to produce 10 Cats given an extra 20 turns beyond those above with all four cities concentrating on producing them.

As I can't dig into this in detail right now either, a rough estimate to start the conversation. :D

EDIT - Welcome back Gator, nice to see you've come through it. :thumbsup: May the RNG be with you! :rolleyes:

Good turns zamint3.

zamint3 - Just played
DJMGator13 UP
leif erikson - On deck
Capt Buttkick
AlanH

Quite right about the road on the hill near Rome - very subtle. So that may well be Caesar's iron. I wonder where ours is :hmm:

I think I'm up to date with the game now.

5th city goes N NE of settler's current location, which is where the archer is.

Rome has not only been busy popping tech huts, he's also got 7 cities. If we are going to wait the 30 turns for the combined arms approach should we go ahead and make the ROP so that we can explore his lands and also to do a ROP abuse if needed?

Other than that it looks like I'm studying Literature and building archers during my turnset.

Well done, Gator. Sound like you're on the ball. Carthage expands next turn so you'll have the spices to help happiness. Check its shield production. You may be able to get the hoplite in two instead of three.

A ROP sounds good - might be a bit cheaper after we've expanded and settled city #5, though, as I think it's cost is territory-dependent. We may not want to ROP rape though, since we are not planning on getting MapMaking early we won't know how far away the rest of the world is, and he might make contact before we have a chance to destroy the evidence. Of course, if we don't care about rep with the others then let's go for it.

A ROP sounds good - might be a bit cheaper after we've expanded and settled city #5, though, as I think it's cost is territory-dependent. We may not want to ROP rape though, since we are not planning on getting MapMaking early we won't know how far away the rest of the world is, and he might make contact before we have a chance to destroy the evidence. Of course, if we don't care about rep with the others then let's go for it.
ROP is a two edged sword. While we can, hopefully, maintain an uneasy peace while we build the forces needed to take on Ceasar, he will undoubtedly send a settler to lay claim to the Ivory to our north. The AI civs seem to know where all the good stuff is and it won't take long for him to try to claim it.

While I don't see a way around it, we probably should think about how we're going to deal with it before it happens. Can we make an Archer block across the narrows of the mountains or determine some other way to keep him away that precious resource?? I don't think that a colony will deter him, it will require some show of force, which may anger him to war, another consideration. I have had civs declare war when I tried to block them from something they wanted. :eek:

Yes, I'd forgotten the ivory. I usually only sign up ROPs when there's nothing behind me for the rival to want to reach. In this case we'll be leaving available land as well as ivory.

Just looked at the save and decided that to secure the Ivory, with our current city sites, will require 5 cultural expansions of the two northern cities. :eek: To completely mark out the territory will require 6 or 7. Does anyone know how long it will take for that to happen?? I know that depends upon the culture points the city generates. Seems like culture is going to be more important that just in our 20K city. So, we have another priority to work into the mix somehow! :mischief:

Thinking a little bit more, I like the idea of trying to block Rome. It would require 5 military units spread across the squares to the SE Leptis Magna. When I looked at the save I forgot to check how many units we have now. :blush: I don't think quite enough with all that is going on, MP, Barb Patrol, etc. But it will give all the Archers Gator is planning to produce something to do!! :D

Eh?!?!? Cultural expansions happen at 10, 100, 1000 culture points. 5 expansions means we got 100K in one city :confused:

6 archers, 2 warriors. Is that really the best use for them?

6 archers, 2 warriors. Is that really the best use for them?

Plus he can just sail around them eventually. Eventually we will be defending that area from everyone and not just Rome.

Eh?!?!? Cultural expansions happen at 10, 100, 1000 culture points. 5 expansions means we got 100K in one city :confused:

6 archers, 2 warriors. Is that really the best use for them?
Guess that isn't going to work.. :blush: So, we can settle where we planned and plan to defend our rights to the Ivory or try to find a way to adjust the last city placement to include one of the Ivory squares when the city expands. (Not my first choice)
Plus he can just sail around them eventually. Eventually we will be defending that area from everyone and not just Rome.

Yes, he can simply sail around them, once he acquires Map Making. Until then, he can not. The idea was intended to be a simple, near term solution that allows us to sign an initial ROP, protect the Ivory and gain us the time to build a force capable of causing Rome some difficulty. Obviously not a very good idea. :crazyeye:

Ok, no combined arms then :( Speed is of the essence...
I think we should archer rush and then only sign the RoP when we're ready to invade. We need to hurry though or we're going to have a monster Rome to deal with in the MA.

I'll go ahead and play today, since we will not be able to attack during my round anyway. I'll also try to position new troops towards Rome for the next player.

Please note Klarius's message in the maintenance thread. When we know the rest of the civs we should check their traits with CivAssist. Apparently there's been a change to one of them at least.

:confused: Erm can one of you tell me what "rax" is? I've been trying to figure it out for ages... no doubt it'll be something simple and obvious! :blush:

Please note Klarius's message in the maintenance thread. When we know the rest of the civs we should check their traits with CivAssist. Apparently there's been a change to one of them at least.

I've already downloaded it, very nice program. Rome is still the same. It incorporates a tech calc and has a 20K monitor. I'll be using it for the new COTM so I'll check out some of its features.

@mabellino - rax is short for barracks.

Rax = barracks
It's so simple and obvious.


Once you know it of course :cool:

Thanks... now I really feel stupid! Should have spotted that you didn't mention barracks by name! :blush: Good luck with the game!

Preturn 60- 1500BC
mm Carthage - Hop in 2 vrs 3 same growth
move the 2 Northern archers just to bounce the darkness around and the Ivory archer finds a Bcamp
Carthage worker NE to BG

IBT - Bhorse attacks archer, down 1 hp and horse dies, no promo

Turn 61 - 1475BC
Spice road completes
mm Carthage after growth to size 4
with Spices hooked up I adjust lux to 10% and sci to 90% with the 1 scientist (LIT in 11 vrs 20) @ -1gpt

IBT - na

Turn 62 1450BC
Carthage Hoplite => Archer
Archer flawlessly kills Bwarrior in Bcamp (no promo) now there is another Bhorse in it

IBT - na

Turn 63 - 1425BC
Found Hippo set to worker
archer redlines but takes out Bhorse and Bcamp (+25 gold)

IBT - Rome finally asks us to leave their territory - I agree - we are automoved to a neutral tile in the middle of Roman territory

Turn 64 - 1400BC
switch Utica from archer to barracks

IBT - Rome learned MapM - went from annoyed to Polite

Turn 65 - 1375BC
Carthage archer => archer (1spt from having in 2 turns vrs 3 turns - should have it when it grows to size 5)

IBT - na

Turn 66 - 1350BC
Ivory archer finds a Bwarrior
mm Theveste for an extra shield barracks in 1 vrs 2 turns
mm Carthage to slow growth by 1 turn so we don't waste the 2 extra shields from growth - this will allow next archer in 2 vrs 3 turns

IBT - our archer in Rome almost makes it to the other side before being told to leave again (automoved to another neutral area further S) / archer survives Bwarrior attack no promo

Turn 67 - 1325BC
Theveste barracks => archer
mm Theveste off forest back to +2fpt (slows this archer down until we grow, but better in the long run)
mm Carthage for commerce (archer in 1 growth in 2)

IBT - na

Turn 68 - 1300BC
Carthage archer => archer
mm Carthage back for forest (grow in 1)
Ivory archer finds the Bcamp

IBT - na

Turn 69 - 1275BC
Ivory Archer takes out Bwarrior and Bcamp (+25gold) no promo
mm Carthage back to river grass (got the 11 shields in box - archer next turn)

IBT - Rome still Polite asks us to leave (not automoved) we agree / Rome knows HBR now also

Turn 70 - 1250BC
Carthage archer => archer (worker finished mining the river grass last turn we are now at +10spt)

Scores: F181/J240

Notes for next player
1) How is Rome learning techs so fast - they got 2 this turnset / it appears were are alone with them also
2) Need to keep 2Mp's in LMagna to keep lux at 10%
3) Lit is due next turn, we are 13 turns from Pyramid/Great Library, could trade Lit in middle of next turnset and be safe
4) Romans are building the Pyramids in Rome so it started way after our prebuild - also means they are NOT producing Legions there
5) Utica barracks completes next turn also
6) Barbs have been active in the Ivory fields
7) Our military is now Average to Rome

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam04_03.jpg

Looking good Gator! :goodjob:

This is a "got it" as I assume I am up?

Sounds like the Romans aren't getting too upset when you "rome" their territory, just occassionally asking you to get out. I assume we can continue to do this without making Ceasar too upset. You have done a good job of mapping out some of Rome's area and I shall try to continue this.

We are average with them, that means it is almost time to :hammer: Hope ours is bigger than his. How many Archers do you think we need to make this show happen? :rockon:

I plan to play on Saturday evening, so we have tomorrow for any discussion. Thanks. :D

EDIT - I was just poking around in the save and thought about our next research objective. With the current setup, 90% research rate, we can have Math in 9 turns. We are losing a couple of GPT at that rate, but are cats worth the detour? I think Philosophy would require 7 turns and Code of Laws was 15 or 17 turns. (It's late) ;)

Well done Gator.

zamint3
DJMGator13 - Just played
leif erikson UP
Capt Buttkick - On deck
AlanH

Re. next tech:

We're getting close to the crunch with Caesar. I guess I'm still not convinced we need Maths and cats. Our first war will be an archer rush. After that I'm guessing we won't go after him again until we have Swords. If we are able to trade Literature now, and take more tech from him after a skirmish, it may be better to focus our efforts on the Republic beeline. When we "trade" with Caesar, do we want to get MapMaking as a priority? A successful suicide galley would reduce our tech costs.

I agree the "trade" for MapM and IW are the top 2 tech we can target, to build ships and capture iron.

I also think archers rush will be OK. Rome showed 3 units when it was building the Legion, so I would expect maybe 4 units in Rome and not more than 2 in the other cities.

I agree on giving up on the comined arms attempt for now. Perhaps this could work though:
* Aim straight for the Republic.
* Fight a quick first war with archers, trying to avoid having to use our Spartans. Should be late in my turnset or early in the next.
* Make peace when we have to b/c of Roman troops moving towards our Spartans.
* Finish Republic.
* Take out Rome with combined arms?

Let's see if I can summarize.

1. We need to continue producing Vet Archers and moving them to the Roman border.

2. Part way through my turn set, I should trade Literature to Ceasar for Map Making and, if possible, Iron Working.

3. Obviously change the Pyramids build to Great Library.

4. Once Lit. completes, next project is Code of Laws.

Questions.
1. Once the worker around Leptis Magna improves the immediate tiles, should we begin building a road towards Roman territory or is improving the terrain around our cities a higher priority?

2. If Ceasar demands Lit., with even sized military, should we tell him to go threaten someone who cares, or?? I hope we can trade before this happens but??

3. I plan to concentrate on building Archers but is there a need for additional Spartan Hoplites?

EDIT - Thanks Alan for your help with the GOTM35 submission. Got your email and everything checks out A-OK. :goodjob: Except the score, could have used an extra 1,500 points?? :mischief:

Looks good Gator :goodjob:
Those promotions are comming a bit slowly, but it looks like we haven't lost any units yet. :)
I have no idea how Caesar can research at this pace, there should not be any huts left, and if, then he's not expansionist. :confused:

If we can trade Litterature for Map Making it would be nice, we may have to through in some cash as well!?

I think we should research Philosophy first because it's cheaper, and we can change the research path quicker if something comes up.

We should not build roads towards Rome, they will be outside our territory, which means the Roman legionaries could travel fast along them. :eek:
We should hook up the ivory and build Leptis Magna.

Our Spartan Hoplite should not be involved in the archer rush, he could go barbhunting in stead of our archers up north.

Do not attack a Roman legionary unless we have an archer SOD, I would hate to see an elite Legionary. :eek:

@Capt : Be patient we might very well build a catapult some day. :lol:


EDIT: Lookout for Roman galleys!

EDIT: Lookout for Roman galleys!
This is a very good point, but after we watch for them, what can we do about them? :crazyeye: Unless they have Ivory somewhere else, it shouldn't take them long to send a galley with a settler and an escort (??) to our north. Unless we garrison the coastal squares, too many units, will we need some Archers there as well? I suppose that he only ship a settler and an escort to start, so we should be able to overcome one unit. It'll probably happen on the Capt.'s watch, so I don't need to worry!! ;)

OK on the roads. We'll head up north and build a colony at the end, although I probably won't get this finished.

M-B sure made this an interesting puzzle!! :eek:

We can't keep the whole continent to ourselves if we only have five cities. We have to decide what's important and focus attention on that. Why is it vital to deprive Caesar of the ivory? If we let him hook up two of them then we can trade for one. As it's in the tundra, it's not going to be a productive city for him other than that.

IMHO, we also shouldn't eliminate Caesar until we have contact with the rest of the world. We stand a chance of being a tech broker for a while if we get a suicide galley across and no one else has the requisite techs (or wonder ? ) to bridge the gap.

This is a very good point, but after we watch for them, what can we do about them? :crazyeye: Unless they have Ivory somewhere else, it shouldn't take them long to send a galley with a settler and an escort (??) to our north. I was more afraid of two legionaries landing next to Leptis Magna. :eek:

We can't keep the whole continent to ourselves if we only have five cities. We have to decide what's important and focus attention on that. Why is it vital to deprive Caesar of the ivory? If we let him hook up two of them then we can trade for one. As it's in the tundra, it's not going to be a productive city for him other than that.
Actually, I was thinking more in terms of our use of the Ivory for happiness of citizens and for use in trade with Rome to try and broker things from him since he is holding so many other cards at the moment. But, it can also work the way you describe, he just gets to demand more form us for our use of it.
IMHO, we also shouldn't eliminate Caesar until we have contact with the rest of the world. We stand a chance of being a tech broker for a while if we get a suicide galley across and no one else has the requisite techs (or wonder ? ) to bridge the gap.
The way Ceasar is learning tech, brokering would be a good idea. I wonder what the tech rate of the other civs will be like.
I was more afraid of two legionaries landing next to Leptis Magna. :eek:
I am focused too much on the next 10 turns, which I hope will be peaceful so we can build up some more Archers. I hope you are not predicting the future... ;)

@Alan: I think the main problem with not weakening Caesar atm is that if we don't he may well bully us for the rest of this game. His tech pace is fast. He's expanding rapidly for a monarch AI. I'd say we have a problem on our hands that needs urgent fixing.
But I'm not the warmonger here :crazyeyes:

I agree we have to weaken him. I suggested not eliminating him.

I agree that we need to keep the other civs weak so that we can build all the Wonders we want and a cheap Wonder from a GL would be real nice. Iron will be important in acheiving the goal of keeping the others weak, so we should almost sell our souls to get it now.

Keeping Rome alive to trade with for awhile could be beneficial. Since it takes 2 known civs to get techs from the Great Library.

We are one of those junctures where I think we need to have a closer look before I proceed. I have played 8 turns and we have just obtained Philosophy through research. We have Philosophy and Literature plus 188 Gold.

Caesar has Iron Working, Map Making, Mysticism and Horseback Riding. He will trade:
1. Iron Working and Map Making for Philosophy, Literature, 188 Gold plus 5 GPT.

2. Map Making and Mysticism, for Phil., Lit. and 178 Gold.

I have attached the save for you to look at for other combinations. I almost did the Map Making and Mysticism deal thinking that we would soon have COL to trade for IW, but I know that we really need IW as well. Mysticism would be nice because it allow us to follow The Great Library build with The Oracle.

Please have a look at the save and let's decide what is most important. I'll sleep on it and perhaps will have a flash of brilliance. :rolleyes:

Sorry, Alan. I didn't read your post well enough :sad:

@Leif: Mysticism should be in long before any prebuilds go out anyway, shouldn't it?

Looks like we are about ready to archer rush Caesar. :)

The only tech we really want right now is Map Making.
We need to meet the other civs so we can use the Great Lib, start some wars and slow down tech pace. :D

Iron Working : With all our archers we don't need iron. ;)
Mysticism : It's a long prebuild to the Oracle, so we don't need it now.
Horseback Riding : Well, with no horses. :lol:


EDIT : The chop south of Carthage is badly timed if you want an archer in Carthage , and it looks like Leptis Magna is working that tile :eek:

Shouldn't we build a temple and a library in Leptis before we start another wonder prebuild?

Iron Working : With all our archers we don't need iron. ;)
Mysticism : It's a long prebuild to the Oracle, so we don't need it now.
Horseback Riding : Well, with no horses. :lol:
OK, trade for Map Making only and we'll get the others by pointy stick or some other means. While we had the chance to get more than Map Making, I thought we should discuss it. I am focusing too much on wonders as Alan's and Zamints points are good ones. Temple and Library provide 5 culture per turn together and can be built faster than The Oracle, that provides 4 culture per turn.
EDIT : The chop south of Carthage is badly timed if you want an archer in Carthage , and it looks like Leptis Magna is working that tile :eek:
He is building a road for gold.. :D since the use of the forest allows an extra shield of production, which cut the time to The Great Library by one turn.

He is building a road for gold.. :D Oooops sorry. :blush:
since the use of the forest allows an extra shield of production, which cut the time to The Great Library by one turn. But the citizen can work the grass now and we'll still have the GL in 4. :)

Shouldn't we build a temple and a library in Leptis before we start another wonder prebuild?Definitely, and probably in that order to increase happiness. We should grow Leptis Magna even if this means we have to go to 30-40% lux. :cool:

We should grow Leptis Magna even if this means we have to go to 30-40% lux. :cool:
Agreed! It only costs 4gpt lux tax currenty to have both Carthage and Leptis working at full production for faster growth. I think that's better than shaving a turn ot two off Code of Laws.

Oooops sorry. :blush:
But the citizen can work the grass now and we'll still have the GL in 4. :)

Definitely, and probably in that order to increase happiness. We should grow Leptis Magna even if this means we have to go to 30-40% lux. :cool:
Sorry, hadn't checked the MM of Leptis Magna before I saved. Thanks for pointing it out. I also followed your advise and put the Tax Collectors to work and raised the Lux Slider. I always have trouble deciding the balance between research speed, growth and Lux slider. Thanks for putting up with me!! :blush:

OK, here is the turn set.
Pre-flight 1250 BC
Awaken Spartan Hoplite on Rome’s border and begin moving him back to the north to avoid the possibility of an accidental Golden Age.
Everything else looks good, good job Gator!!
Press enter.

IBT
We learn Literature. Change to Philosophy at 90%, comes in 7 turns and we’re losing 2 GPT.
Utica Barracks – Archer.

Turn 71 – 1225 BC
Change build order in Leptis Magna from Pyramids to The Great Library, 12 turns.
MM Leptis Magna – change from mined grass to forest, TGL now in 11 turns.
Move Archers around Leptis Magna south.
Archer located deep in Roman territory moves SE into Roman territory.
Workers mine.
Spartan Hoplite NE.

IBT
Carthage Archer – Archer.
We are told that the Viking city of Nidaros has completed The Colossus.

Turn 72 – 1200 BC
Archers south.
Worker roads.
Spartan Hoplite NE.

IBT
Rome complains that we are moving in their territory so we beg forgiveness but Caesar is annoyed with us.
Theveste Archer – Archer.
Hippo Worker – Barracks.

Turn 73 – 1175 BC
Our Archer in Roman territory is sent back to where he started, so we try again and go E.
Archers S and fortify along Rome’s border.
Northern Archers move around searching for Barbs.
Spartan Hoplite N.
Hippo Worker W.

IBT
Caesar complains again, become polite and our unit is not forced to move??
Carthage Archer – Archer.


Turn 74 – 1150 BC
Archers S.
Spartan Hoplite fortifies S of Leptis Magna.
MM Hippo for shields, Barracks in 20.

IBT
No complaints from Caesar??

Turn 75 – 1125 BC
Same old, same old.
Worker chops forest N of Theveste.


IBT
Carthage Archer – Archer.
Utica Archer – Archer. MM Utica for shields, Archer in 4 turns.

Turn 76 – 100 BC
Archers south.
MM Carthage as it grew to size 6 and requires a Tax Collector.
I try to trade with Caesar. He wants Lit, 192 Gold plus 5 GPT for Map Making. I decide to hold as we will have Philosophy in 2 turns. Caesar also has Mysticism now as well.
The Great Library is scheduled for 6 more turns.

IBT
We see a Roman Galley moving N up the western coast near Pompeii.

Turn 77 – 1075 BC
Archers south.
Workers roads.

IBT
We discover Philosophy. Research to Code of Laws at 90%, still losing 2 GPT, due in 10 turns.
Roman Galey still moving north up the west coast nearing Theveste.
Carthage Archer – Archer.
Theveste Archer – Archer.

Turn 78 – 1050 BC
Archers south.
I visit Caesar. I try to trade for Map Making and Iron Working but cannot do so without a GPT deal. In fact, he wants all our gold (188) plus 5 GPT to do the deal. That will delay COL by 6 turns. He will trade Map Making and Mysticism for Lit, Phil. and 178 Gold. Decide to save game and ask team.
The decision is to trade for Map Making only, so we trade Lit., Phil. and 24 Gold for Map Making.
MM Leptis Magna from Forest back to mined grass, still 4 turns to The Great Library. Change Tax Collectors to working citizens and increase Lux to 20%. Change research rate to 60%, Code of Laws in 14 turns and we are making +2 GPT.
Change production in Hippo from Barracks to Galley.

IBT
Roman Galley continues up the west coast.

Turn 79 – 1025 BC
Archers south.
Scouting Archer NE.


IBT
Theveste chop completes.
Carthage Archer – Archer.
Utica Archer – Archer.

Turn 80 – 1000 BC
Archers south.
Workers mine near Theveste and Hippo.

After Action Report.
We now have Map Making and a Galley is under construction in Hippo. Leptis Magna is schedule to grow in 1 turn and will complete The Great Library in 2 turns. The worker near Carthage has NOT been moved, your choice Capt.

We are now strong compared to Rome and the Archers are moving south, ready for battle. We have 18 Archers completed and are paying 5 GPT in unit support. There is a Roman Galley moving up the west coast and it is in the fog near Theveste, you should see it in the next IBT phase.

We currently have research set at 60%, Code of Laws in 12, and Lux is set to 20%.

Sorry, no screen shot. Things don't look much different, there are just more Archers to the south. :mischief:

Please feel free to change any builds or settings that you feel you need to. Good luck with Caesar Capt. Teach him a lesson not to mess with us. :hammer:
<<The Save >> (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Xteam_SG004_BC1000_01.SAV)

Well done leif. :goodjob:

In 2 turns we'll have 6 archers outside Pompei and Antium, and then we should hit. :hammer:
I don't know how much war you guys are planning, but I suggest we take out the two cities and wait and see what Caesar counters with. We should have a welcome committee for the roman galley up north, probably a settler and a spearman/warrior!?

Thoughts on build order :
Theveste : Galley, Temple, it's running out of growth potential.
Utica : Archer, Galley.
Hippo : Galley
Carthage : Worker, worker, we've got to get those hills around Leptis Magna mined and get the ivory hooked up.
Leptis Magna : GL, Temple, Library. Maybe we should chop the forrest to get it faster?

You are in for some interesting turns Capt. Good luck. :cool:

EDIT : When we get galleys, note that Differntial Naval Movement is on! Gotm 28 features (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/gotm28_features.shtml)

Got it. Will start play straight away. I'm babysitting, so I'm not sure I'll be able to finish it before this evening though (relax and get some :coffee:, guys :)).

Good job leif.

zamint3
DJMGator13
leif erikson - Just played
Capt Buttkick UP
AlanH - On deck

Have fun captain. Off to see our old friend Caesar from SGOTM3 then? Lets hope he didn't learn too much from us. :mischief:

Have fun captain. Off to see our old friend Caesar from SGOTM3 then? Lets hope he didn't learn too much from us. :mischief:

The only thing I thought him in SGOTM3 was how to dine using a wooden utensil.

Sgotm4 1000 - B.C.

Preflight - Worker chops outside Leptis Magna. Utica switch to Galley. Theveste switch to Temple. I think we need to hurry research to Republic and then switch it off so no problem with running deficit for a while, 80% lux at -8 gpt shaves 3 turns off CoL. Move Spartan N.
Turn 1 - 975 B.C. Move one Archer into Utica. Move Spartan E. Worker outside Utica S. Move southern archers S. Move scouting archer E, seems like that's the eastern end of the continent if it doesn't continue to the S. MM'ing Leptis to the coast means 20% lux is enough.
IBT: Caesar fights a barb galley :) Carth Archer --> Worker. Leptis GLib --> Temple :D
Turn 2 - 950 B.C. Carth archer moves towards Utica. Southern archer move S. Worker outside Utica chops. MM Letis back to forest. Spartan moves into Letis and fortifies.
IBT: Caesar lands a settler + archer next to our archer in ivoryland :lol: Carth Worker --> Worker.
Turn 3 - 925 B.C. Some road-building. Carth worker moves towards Leptis' hills. Check position of troops and declare on Caesar. Close down on Pompeii and Antium. Loose a HP in the N fighting Rome's escorting Archer. Gain some slaves :) Capture a worker in the far south, disband it.
IBT: Loose 3 HPs off a vet archer in the far south. Carth builds worker (on growth :)), starts Pyramids to prevent the chop from going to Carth.
Turn 4 - 900 B.C. Archer attacks spear in Antium, loose 1 HP, promotes. Archer attacks spear in Antium, loose 1 HP. Archer attacks archer in Antium, loose 1 HP, raze it for 17 gold, gain a slave. Archer attacks spear in Pompeii, loose 2 HPs. Archer attacks spear in Pompeii, taking off 1 HP, dies. Archer attacks spear in Pompeii, taking off 1 HP, dies. Archer attacks archer in Antium, loose 1 HP, raze it for 17 gold, gain a slave. Archer attacks spear in Pompeii, loose 2 HPs. Archer attacks spear in Pompeii, taking off 1 HP, dies. Archer attacks spear in Pompeii, taking off 1 HP, dies. Archer attacks spear in Pompeii, taking off 1 HP, dies. Archer attacks spear in Pompeii, taking off 1 HP, dies. Archer takes out super-spear in Pompeii, loose 1 HP.
IBT: Nothing.
Turn 5 - 875 B.C. 3/4 archer attacks archer in Pompeii, loose 1 HP, raze the city for 19 gold. Switch Carth to Archer.
IBT: Loose southern archer to a 3/3 warrior. Carth Archer --> Archer. Utica Galley --> Temple. Hippo Galley --> Temple. I'm thinking we can switch the Temples to Galleys if we loose out on suiciding.
Turn 6 - 850 B.C. 2 Carth archers moves S. Utica galley moves 3 W into the ocean. Hippo galley moves N N.
IBT: Loose both Galleys, one is sacrifised to the RNG gods, the other is killed by a barb galley! :mad:
Turn 7 - 825 B.C. Not much, I can't even adjust sci to earn some gold...
IBT: CoL --> Republic. Carth Archer --> Archer. Leptis Temple --> Library.
Turn 8 - 800 B.C. Elite archer attacks 3/3 warrior on hill, loose 3 HPs, no GLuck ;) Attack 3/3 spear with 4/4 archer, loose 2 HPs, gain 2 slaves. Loose a 4/4 archer, then take out a 3/3 archer on hill, gain 2 slaves.
IBT: Caesar wants peace, but isn't able to comply with my demands (3 cities), I decide to hold out. Theveste Temple --> Galley.
Turn 9 - 775 B.C. Make peace with Rome for Pisae, Hispalis and Neapolis, 1 Worker and 15 gold. Switch Leptis to FP. Abandon Roman cities. Leptis thinks I'm cruel for some reason??? 30% lux and an entertainer does the trick. This means min research on Republic, however. Switch Carth to Spartan.
IBT: Utica Galley --> Temple.
Turn 10 - 750 B.C. I'll leave the Archers down south. If Caesar continues his Pyramids build, perhaps we should RoP him later and take Rome. I think we should consider keeping Rome and disbanding Theveste in that case. Anyway, Rome can't be all that well defended and if we find lots of trade neighbours soon, I'm not sure why we should keep Rome around. Especially not if we can do combined arms :lol:

Firaxis score is 233. We have 5 cities ;)

Btw: Sorry for messing up the chop in Leptis. I was going to MM Leptis to the two river-hills on the turn the chop came in, but simply forgot :(

Well done Captain :goodjob: That's two of us who can't time a chop then :rolleyes: I'm also bad at timing turns - I seem to be up in two games now :eek:

zamint3 - On deck
DJMGator13
leif erikson
Capt Buttkick - Just played
AlanH UP

I'll take it and have a look tonight, and I'll try to play it (and KA01) tomorrow.

Excellent work Capt. That sure was a quick and decisive war :goodjob: , poor Alan missed all the fun. ;)

Nice job on the Forbidden Palace too. Before we decide the fate of Rome, I would love to see where the Iron source is. I have been thinking about Theveste and the possibility of abandoning it if we can find a resoiurce in a rich area, like Rome, that we could grab with another city. Do you think Caesar would give in if we demanded IW? What can he do to us if he declares war? :p

Good job Captain. Very nice on the FP.

Not sure if the demand for IW will work. I've rarely managed to extort anything other than a Tmap or a few gold, even when in a dominate position.

Not sure if the demand for IW will work. I've rarely managed to extort anything other than a Tmap or a few gold, even when in a dominate position.
I'm sure you're right because I can never get anything out of them either. :blush: I figured it might be worth a try, until I looked at the save. I was surprised to see that we are average in military against Rome. I am beginning to think we might want to go south and relieve Rome of those cities because we still don't know where that Iron source is. He could still be capable of producing Legionaries, although The Capt. didn't seem to see any?? :confused: It won't be too much fun if a group of Vets pops out of the fog somewhere. :cry:

No Legs, no. And afaics only one city apart from wonder-building Rome is hooked up to the iron. If we have luck with a suicide galley any time soon, we can RoP rape and take out Caesar as soon as we know two other civs. We're going to turn off sci anyway once Republic is in, aren't we?

Make peace with Rome for Pisae, Hispalis and Neapolis, 1 Worker and 15 gold. Switch Leptis to FP. Abandon Roman cities. :hatsoff: :clap: :salute: :bounce: :banana: :rockon:

Carth builds worker (on growth :)), starts Pyramids to prevent the chop from going to Carth. I didn't know you could do that, well I learn something every day. :)


Btw: Sorry for messing up the chop in Leptis. I was going to MM Leptis to the two river-hills on the turn the chop came in, but simply forgot :(What did happen to that chop. :confused:

If we can't research Republic fast anyway I think we should turn up the lux, and grow Leptis Magna.

Good luck Alan

:hatsoff: :clap: :salute: :bounce: :banana: :rockon:
Thanks :)

What did happen to that chop. :confused:
It finished and we only gained 4 shields from it b/c I MM'ed the city wrong.

If we can't research Republic fast anyway I think we should turn up the lux, and grow Leptis Magna.
I concur, your excellency ;)

Good luck Alan
:thumbsup:

Turn 90 750BC Pre-flight
Fired taxman in Leptis and gave him some hard labour to reduce FP by one turn, increase lux slider to 5.1.4 for 6gpt. Not much else to do :thumbsup:

IBT Chop completes near Hippo. Hippo finishes Galley -> Galley. Carthage completes Hoplite -> Hoplite.

Turn 91 730BC Workers move. Galley south on west coast. New galley north from Hippo. Archers move to build a blockade across Rome's northern border to try to confine them to quarters.

IBT Barb 1/3 galley attacks our new galley near Hippo and sinks with all hands, causing no damage.

Turn 92 710BC MM BG tiles around Hippo, Utica to optimise shields. Galleys continue in safe waters. Southern one will head for western-most piece of our land and then try a western dash. Northern galley will try west from the northern cape. Workers start roands and mines on hills at Leptis.

IBT Theveste expands.

Turn 93 690BC Hire a scientist in Carthage for a turn. Slider 6.0.4 for 11gpt. Complete archer blockade across Rome's northern border.

IBT Carthage Hoplite->Hoplite. Entremont (Keltoi) completes Oracle.

Turn 94 670BC Galleys move along coast. Southern one sees shallow water to the west. Looks promising. Fire the scientist and slider back to 5.1.4

IBT Chop complete at Utica, temple in 4 turns. Theveste completes galley->harbour.

Turn 95 650BC Northern galley starts a suicide run due west. Southern galley heads west starting on a coast tile with only one sea tile and then ocean. Lucky shot! There's then one sea tile and coast, so the trip is safe for a galley with differential movement. It arrives off Pasagardae and we meet and greet the X-Man. He's annoyed and has 163 gold. He also has the same techs as Caesar. Coincidence? It looks to me as if they know each other, but with no contact trades until Printing, we can't tell. Anyway, we're not buying, 'cos all these techs will be ours next turn :D

As we have no contact trading we'll have to find the other civs on this land mass ourselves, so our new galley heads for the crossing point, but we'll switch Hippo from galley to temple to expand it.

IBT persia complains about our galley. We agree we've been naughty :rolleyes: Northern suicide galley doesn't sink. The Great Library delivers IW, Myst, Maths and HBR. Leptis grows to pop 9.

Turn 96 640BC Check that the only iron on our continent is on the hill outside Rome, as we suspected. Suicide galley heads west, sees a reddish border but doesn't reach coast.

IBT Carthage cmpletes Hoplite, starts cat - see I *can* build them :mischief:. Suicide galley sinks :(

Turn 97 610BC Galley moves south and sees that the path we found is the only safe passage for a galley. All others in the area seem to involve more sea tiles and/or further distances.

IBT Rome finishes our Pyramids for us. Nice of them! :thumbsup: Persia completes Great Lighthouse.

Turn 98 590BC Worker builds colony on wool, as we have almost completed the road north to our core. Hire a scientist in Carthage as it can still grow and complete its cat. Slider 6.0.4.

IBT Brown galley appears near our successful galley. Carthage completes cat, starts Hoplite . Utica completes temple starts cat. Our Palace gets a second floor. The Ottomans complete the Great Wall.

Turn 99 570 BC The brown galley is Indian. Gandhi is polite, has 19 gold, and no techs for us. He has iron and horses hooked up, and has a bad reputation. We build an Ivory colony and reduce the lux slider to 6.1.3.

Turn 100 550BC Woll road completed. Workers head for the core. Sliders to 7.1.2. Our galley finds a Persian island south of their mainland.

After Action Report
We have most of the tiles around Leptis developed now. It can support pop 12 without working the coast or mountains. I've sent a couple of workers to mine the last grassland tile in its radius, on the east coast. We may be able to join workers to Leptis soon to get it up to pop 12. It'll complete the FP in 5 turns, and then its shield production will go up by another 2 as corruption disappears.

Tile development is also in good shape around the other towns. I've started roads on 2 BG tiles east of Hippo ahead of it expanding when it completes its temple.

Now that Rome has finished the Pyramids for us we need to decide whether to go after him again now. We only have to wait 9 or 10 turns to take him out honourably. It seems most unlikely that Rome hasn't crossed the safe passage to Persia, so I suspect there's already contact between Rome and the other continent, and we might take a rep hit from an early redeclaration and/or ROP rape.

We are strong vs the known civs. The power curve puts Persia in the lead - they have a lot of cities. India is in the culture lead.

I haven't traded techs to Persia - they have 163 gold and would give it for Philosophy or Literature. If we want to slow the tech pace we should probably not sell. On the other hand, if Caesar knows Persia why haven't they bought from him? P'raps he hasn't travelled there yet :hmm:

I built colonies for ivory and wool. We may have to defend them against incoming settlers before long, or lose them.

Here's our known world. The save is on the server.

Way to sail the high seas. :goodjob:

Very nice Alan!! :goodjob:

I'm relieved to know where the Iron source is. Have to have a look at the save and do a little thinking.

zamint3 UP
DJMGator13 - On deck
leif erikson
Capt Buttkick
AlanH - Just played

Have some fun, zamint3. Lot's of exploring to do.

Have some fun, zamint3. Lot's of exploring to do.
There are 2 Warriors and a Spartan Hoplite in Leptis Magna, only 2 can be used as MP's. We can move an Archer out of Theveste towards Rome and a Warrior from Leptis Magna to Theveste.

We are back to having a strong military versus Rome. We have 9 turns of peace left to preserve our reputation. Can we provoke Caesar? I'd like to at least get his Iron source unhooked by taking Rome. Cumae has not expanded, so would not get use of the 2 cattle squares for growth. I think it might be better to take him out sooner at 4 cities than to have to take out more later, although we could use the time we have to build a few more cats, then I'll pass my turns to the Capt. can so he play some combined arms!! :lol: :lol:

I also think that after Hippo completes we should consider building a galley and head east from the oyster square east of Carthage. :cool:

:goodjob: Very nice Alan.
If we're going to attack Caesar anytime soon, I think we should build archers instead of combined arms. I like the idea of taking Rome asap to prevent too many legs being built and I really don't want to set off our GA in the process.
Looks like we need 12 troops to prevent overseas civs from grabbing the ivory. That may well be doable after we take out Caesar, but I suspect the Persians will land a long time before that happens.

Edit: 3 strategically placed galleys will prevent X-man from crossing, even with GLight, afaics.

Well done Alan. :goodjob:
I like the archer blockade, that'll slow Caesar down.

... we meet and greet the X-Man. He's annoyed and has 163 gold. He also has the same techs as Caesar. Coincidence? It looks to me as if they know each other, but with no contact trades until Printing, we can't tell. I'd forgotten about contacts being moved, :blush: , but I don't think they know each other. We have an embassy with Rome and if they knew Persia (or India) our foreign advisor (F4) would tell us if they were at peace or war, and we would be able to sign an alliance with Rome against Persia (or India)

Rome is at size 7 and probably building legionaries again, how many archers do we need to take Rome?!!!! :eek: I'd say we let the Capt do his combined arms thing, when we get to Republic. :lol:

@ Leif : I believe Cumae can use the two cows, and it's probably building legionaries at max speed. :D

EDIT : @Capt. : With the Great Lighthouse I think you can travel safely at sea. ;)

Well done Alan. :goodjob:
I like the archer blockade, that'll slow Caesar down.

I'd forgotten about contacts being moved, :blush: , but I don't think they know each other. We have an embassy with Rome and if they knew Persia (or India) our foreign advisor (F4) would tell us if they were at peace or war, and we would be able to sign an alliance with Rome against Persia (or India)

Rome is at size 7 and probably building legionaries again, how many archers do we need to take Rome?!!!! :eek: I'd say we let the Capt do his combined arms thing, when we get to Republic. :lol:

@ Leif : I believe Cumae can use the two cows, and it's probably building legionaries at max speed. :D

EDIT : @Capt. : With the Great Lighthouse I think you can travel safely at sea. ;)

Good calls. I agree, Captain, if we are going back to war soon we don't want a Golden Age yet. We're still over 20 turns from researching Republic, and then we'll have some anarchy turns.

I thing Persia can reach us across several different routes. Three galleys won't stop them. Of course, if *we* had the Lighthouse ... :mischief:

:lol: How did I forget about the safe travel at sea bit? :confused:

All the more reason for going after Caesar as soon as we can. And yes, we'll need lots of archers for that.

Turnlog SGotm 4, zamint3
550 BC Preflight
Establish an embassy with India for 45 g, they are at war with Persia. Nice! :)
Change production in Theveste to galley. Theveste won’t use the coastal tiles for a long time and we won’t do any overseas trade for a long time either, and if we do want to move the city later it should not build to many improvements.

IBT:
Ghandi ask us to leave his territory.
Theveste : galley-> spartan hoplite

530 BC Turn 101 :
I’m afraid to be thrown out into the sea, so I sign a ROP with Ghandi and gets 20g as well.

IBT:
Carthage : hoplite->library..

510 BC Turn 102 :
We didn’t get the catapult in Utica on growth, the new citizen was put on the mined grass instead of the forrest. ??? :confused: Change production to Spartan Hoplite.

IBT :
Roman legionary march out of Cumae.

490 BC Turn 103 :
-
IBT
Utica : spartan hoplite -> catapult.
Hippo : temple -> galley.
The roman legionary fortifies on the hill, roman settler, spear and archer moves towards our eastern blockade.

470 BC Turn 104 :
-

IBT
Leptis Magna : FP-> library.

450 BC Turn 105 :
We are still wasting one shield in Leptis Magna, worker joins the city and shileds are up to 16 : library in 5 turns, same lux! :)

IBT
Theveste : Spartan hoplite -> catapult.
We loose suicide galley. :(
Caesar did a very clever thing, he founded Neapolis right beside our eastern blockade. There is still 3 turns left of our peace treaty.

430 BC Turn 106 :
-

IBT
We get kicked out of Roman territory. We get kicked two tiles out, that’s funny??? :crazyeye:
Persia lands settler and spear just N of our western blockade.
Utica : catapuly -> catapult.

410 BC Turn 107 :
Sell Philosophy to Xerxes for 185g.

IBT
Persia founded sidon on our continent.
Carthage : library -> catapult.
Roman galley is heading north on west coast.

390 BC Turn 108 :
-

IBT :
Theveste : catapult -> galley ?

370 BC Turn 109 :
Rome and Persia have met and they both have construction, so we might learn that soon. :mischief:
Two workers are joining Carthage.

IBT :
We learn Construction from the GL. :)
Carthage : catapult -> catapult ?
Utica : catapult -> catapult ?
Leptis Magna : library -> colosseum ?
Hippo : galley -> aqueduct.

350 BC Turn 110 :
Send galley on suicide mission west from the Indian/Persian continent.

Our peace deal with Rome has expired so we should teach him another lesson. I don’t know if there is any legionaries in Neapolis but we can check it for 21g. Note that rome is down to pop 4.

I don’t really know what to build so feel free to change everything.


Here's the situation down south :


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Roman_conflict_350_bc.png

:goodjob: Zamint.

Is Caesar really prioritizing settlers out of Rome instead of Legs? :lol: