SGOTM4 - Team Grayarea [Archive] - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

King Alexander

Sep 27, 2004, 02:03 AM

I also downloaded the files and installed them.

I'll have a look at the save at some moment(to see if something is unclear from the starting position).

Looking at the picture above, I want to tell my opinion:
1) I'd definetly not settle on the forest, but I'd move the settler 1E on the other side of the river and send the worker to road/mine the SE BG near the river; We already have 2 BG's(with the radious-expansion, we'll get them all) and there may be more under those forests.

2) If there is a food bonus close behind that mountain, we'get it with the radius expansion; if the food bonus is 2 tiles away from the mountain(2N), we'll waste 2 settler moves that they'll cost us in the long run.
Maybe we can get a food bonus with our second city, if we're unlucky and there isn't one nearby.
Remember that we're playing a 5CC game, and we'll only need 5 cities, and 5 STRONG-SHIELD cities, that is.

3) WE'LL NEED TO SETTLE NEAR RIVERS, so our cities will growth to size 12, without spending valuable shields to get aqueducts, and get their maximum potential quickly: at some point, we should also build granaries in all our cities(if we don't get a specific Wonder...), to grow even faster(it's not a waste at all but quick growth=power).

4) I intend to start with 4 warriors - 3 of them go exploring to get contacts and scout the area for the best settling sites for our next cities.

If there isn't a food bonus nearby, I'll start a temple(we're religious = cheap temples and we also get the culture) before I make a settler/warrior.
The temple will be in good use for later on, when we're going to build a Wonder, and our pop will increase and we'll need to keep them happy.

5) WONDERS: The Pyramids and the Colossus will be crucial for our Cultural victory. If we lose the Pyramids from another civ, switch to the Oracle. We want as many Wonders as possible. Palace pre-builds in time, will be crucial to get the Wonders we want, and to end any cascade to another civ(and to make them waste their shields!!! :evil: ).
From the Ancient Age, we also want the Great Library and the Great Lighthouse(if we're not playing a pangea game, we'll need contacts, otherwise we could switch to the Hanging Gardens or even the Great Wall if we lose all - at the worst case scenario, we could "delay" it for Sun Tzu's, if you know what I mean ;) ).

btw: If we hit our Golden Age with Colossus(it may happen, since we're religious), DON'T PANICK. We could build temples/libraries/granaries/barracks/units real quickly and be in a good position for cultural victory. It isn't so bad as you'd think; I had an experience with a 5CC epic that I had started to practise a bit ;) .

P.S.: more to come for our science path.

Sir_Ortin

Sep 27, 2004, 03:07 AM

Hi KA!

Can you remember me aour civ traits? One is religious. What the second is?
Our UU are elefants, right?

P.S. What is your time zone? Mine is +2.

Grayarea

Sep 27, 2004, 03:35 AM

Given that we are playing vanilla RCP can be used to reduce corruption. This only works if all ring cities are exactly the same distance from the capital. Would this constrain our placement too much?

From the rules page;

"The first person in the roster plays to the end of the 3000BC turn."

I assumed that we start playing at the top of the play order. What is the normal method for determining the start player?

Looking at the start position, I would move the worker on to the mountain to have a look around and if nothing better shows up I would move the setteler east and settle there. The setteler may also show up something on the other side of the river worth moving for.

King Alexander

Sep 27, 2004, 04:24 AM

Correction: About the temple I earlier said in one of our options, I'd build it AFTER we pump out the settler, and while we're waiting for the city to grow. At that time it'd be wise to chop the forests(to get the temple be done sooner).

NOTE: I want ROADS to every tile that you move(obviously, you don't road a forest before you chop it), so we don't waste turns to go there again and make roads.

@Sir_Ortin: Hi!
Our traits are Religious(very good to switch goverments ASAP and get cheap temples/cathedrals :D ), and Commercial(so we can pay for the techs we're going to need ;) )

My time zone is GMT+3(or 2???). Greece is 2 hours ahead of England.

For those that don't know: In Despotism, we need 2 units for military police, so build 2 warriors because they're cheap, to have protection from barbs, and of course, keep our citizens happy.
After that, barracks.

2 of our strongest-shield cities(1 probably will be our capital) will build Wonders; when one of them doesn't build a Wonder, build improvements/military.

The rest 3 of our cities should focus on MILITARY: maybe one of them, could also start a palace/improvement pre-build at some time for an upcoming Wonder.

When we learn Mathematics, focus 1 of our 3 military cities to build catapults ALL THE TIME, when the city hasn't any improvements to build; better yet, build catapults to supply each of our cities, 2 in each city for a beginning(after that, improvements and again catapults).

Every city needs to have at least 2 spearmen; the front cities(if there isn't 1 civ behind our back, should have at least 4 spearmen; when we have them, only build horsemen afterwards. I hope that we'll have horses inside our radius :cool: ).

I could say more, but we don't know our map yet. If we're surrounded by other civs, make sure to divine our units in each city.

Sir_Ortin

Sep 27, 2004, 04:31 AM

@Grayarea:
So far as I know, RCP works in every version.
We definitely should place cities with equal distance. I think it should be 5.5. There are many places (16) with 5.5 distance, so we can chose a place very precisely. And they will not overlap working tiles with center city. Overlapping can occur only between cities in 1-st ring, but we can easely avoid it. One minus is that we will be unable to move our troops between cities in 1 turn.

One more thought.

If we could find a suitable place for all our 5 cities with our first warriors, I think that we should start building in start city only settlers, move them in new territory (found cities) and then make a free palace jump there. To be shure that palace will jumped into the center city, it should be founded first (and no worker/settler production from it!!!), and only then cities from ring.

King Alexander

Sep 27, 2004, 04:32 AM

Oh, something important: since we're not industrious, we'll need 10 workers to improve the land asap, divided into pairs(so they improve a tile faster).
Once we don't need a pair and have improved everything in a city's radious, we can join them into cities(join them wisely; helping a city buiding a Wonder to reach size 12 for example, or slow growth cities).

EDIT: Our corruption won't be bad at all, because we'll only have 5 cities. Courts will help to reduce the small corruption that we'll have.

Thing is that we need strong-shield cities.

We should build our far away cities first, before another civ settles there, and takes "our" land, so we won't forced to overlap our cities and/or go to early war. We don't want an early war, while we're building our Wonders.

We should play peacefully as much as possible; when and if we'll need to make war, we'll decide about it, but we haven't much to gain as we can't build more cities and another civ could settle the razed/unclaimed land and defeat us by domination.
If we'd play pangea, we could go for Conquest, but, we'll see.

Grayarea

Sep 27, 2004, 04:57 AM

RCP does not work in Conquest. If cities are the same distance from the capital then they are ranked based on the order the program finds them in. In Vanilla and maybe in PTW, cities that are at the same distance are ranked the same (ie much better)

King Alexander

Sep 27, 2004, 05:26 AM

What should be our strategy about goody huts? Restless barbarians smells barb-warrior-popping.

First, I'd want to find as many contacts as possible with our warriors and explore as much as we can, and not having them get killed by barbs.
Maybe we can build a few warriors more to pop goody huts; spearmen would be good, but they take many turns at the beginning.

IMPORTANT: If a city from a nearby civ flips to us, take the unit(spear/pike/whatever) from it to go in one of our cities, and go to the diplo screen, select the flipped-city, and GIFT it back to the civ it had it.
Under no circumstances disband the city; the other civ will get furious with us(for disbanding their people), and maybe they'll go to war later on(and maybe they alliance some other civ, also).

Sir_Ortin

Sep 27, 2004, 05:50 AM

If goody hut is not in open terrain, I think we can pop it and defence pritty well if there would be barbs. If goody hut is in open terrain, then it will be better not to pop it with our warrior who look for rivals.

to Grayarea: Thks., I know that RCP works in PTW, but was not shure about C3C.

to King Alexander: Once our cities reached size about 12 and produce enough gold, corruption will affect them a little. So, if there will be a chance to use RCP, we should use it.

King Alexander

Sep 27, 2004, 05:56 AM

@Sir_Ortin: of course I'd like it RCP, but corruption won't be big anyway, and I prefer us to get 1-2 tiles further, if we'd get a luxury(ies) after the border expansion.

Don't worry: I played a 5CC game to see how it is, and the most far-away city, produced the highest shield-production from all the other 4 cities(a court helped, and corruption was insignificant for the tremendous amount of shields it produced).

btw: I agree with what you said about the goody huts. If they're in hills/mountains, go for them and pop them.

Sir_Ortin

Sep 27, 2004, 06:26 AM

@King Alexander.
Yes, I totally forgot about luxuary resources. Of cource they are more important then RCP.

So, when will you plan to start playing turns?

King Alexander

Sep 27, 2004, 06:36 AM

First, we need to wait for Alex Top to check in, so he knows our plans and/or offer his opinion also.

Matternich should also read all this.

Last but not least, we need to discuss about our science path. We'll need to build Wonders.

I think, the capital should build 2 settlers at most, so it could start a Wonder; if we find a food-bonus nearby, then the capital builds only 1 settler and maybe a worker after it builds a temple, and start on Wonders: the other 3 cities would be built by the city with the food bonus, that is.

If the capital isn't near the coast, 1 city should build the Colossus, after we trade for BW.

Grayarea

Sep 27, 2004, 07:45 AM

RCP and resources / lux

We can and probably will have to use outposts to snag these. Once we have them we will have to put units around them to stop other civs from founding a town and taking the outpost from us.

We should try and use strict RCP to reduce the corruption, I know it may only be a small percentage differance, but over the game as a whole it will be significant!

Alex Top

Sep 27, 2004, 01:20 PM

Hi all!

I was tracking your discussion in read-only mode. :)

At first: I am novice player in SGOTM and 5CC as well. So I prefer to listen to expierence players first, and then make some proposals.

Right now I agree with our strategy. Just one question: what will be our research?

King Alexander

Sep 27, 2004, 02:16 PM

Welcome to our Team, Alex Top!

I don't have any SG/SGOTM experience from a 5CC game, either; I only tried it at 1 of my own epic recently, to see how things are.

I'd say, that pottery is a tech that I'd like us to have, so we start a granary, get the settlers/workers that we need(and we're going to need 10 workers total, in 5 pairs).

We could research Pottery asap at 90%, and if we meet a civ that has the tech, trade for it/buy it and start minimum on Writing at 10%, and buy other techs with cash(especially, Masonry and Bronze Working), as in the begin, it isn't good to pay gpt.

Another option would be to research/trade for Pottery-Masonry(palace pre-build)-Brone Working, as those techs have the Wonders we want at the beginning: Pyramids, Colossus. Mysticism also gives the Oracle.

A lot will depend on if we find a food bonus, to get all our cities going asap, so the question is: where to move the settler and the worker.

I intended to move the worker to the SE BG so he could begin mining/road it asap, and move the settler 1E at the other side of the river.
If there is a food bonus behind the mountain or to the East, we'll get it when our border will expand; if the bonus is 2 tiles after the mountain, we'll waste 3 turns to found our capital.

If I move the worker to the BG and I see a food bonus to the south, I'll move the settler 1S to the forest.

Fact is that we MUST stay near the river, and those moves I proposed above, may be are our best choices. If we go away from the river, our capital will stay at size 6, and we'll need to wait until Construction to build an aqueduct.

Now, what you all say for the above?

btw: I loaded the save to see if something is clearer, but it isn't. The weird thing is that it says Queen Hanabella(or something) from the neoCarthaginians. Are we playing India or not?(I mean, at least, do we start with the same techs and have the same UU?)

Matternich

Sep 27, 2004, 02:54 PM

For the captial theres 3 choices-

i. Build it where it is- good because it has a river already there.

ii. Settle just over the river- better in that it could have an extra food and lux in its expanded border but would interfere with any city placed east of this i.e. there's a coastal hill to the east which could have fish and a whale.

iii. Go directly south 2 squares to the grassland )- not bad but has worse squares to work than the above but could build coastal wonders.

After all this I probably would go for i. build it where it is. Just because of being able to have that eastern coastal city without any cross over tiles.

Research-
Normally I'd go for pottery for an early granary and a settler pump but as we are only ever going to need 5 settlers for our 5 cities I think it best to risk gaining pottery from a trade.

Writing is a good choice. There's a good chance we are only one of 2 staring with alphabet so it could be useful to trade. After, go for literature for an early Great Library, though usually I wouldnt bother researching a second tech and have 0 research and trade instead though at this level I'm not sure.
If not Writing then Mathematics though as long as we don't miss the line toward GL it probably doesn't matter.

when is the game starting?

Sir_Ortin

Sep 28, 2004, 01:17 AM

@matternich
How do you know the map? Did you remember it from playing GOTM? Also, I did not think that Mad-Bax would leave resources from previous game. I think that he have rerandomized them. So, we can only count on a shape of continents, location of our neighbors (North, South-East, etc.).

From what I can see on our start location, the best place for starting city is E - behind the river.

What to research - go for Writing at min. We need first explore our continent and then choose the location for our 5 cities.

Sir_Ortin

Sep 28, 2004, 01:18 AM

This is why we do not need growing at first so much.

King Alexander

Sep 28, 2004, 01:58 AM

@Matternich: so, you're suggesting that we settle at where we are.

As for the techs, what you suggested is what I'd normally do, since we start with Alphabet.

The thing is that we need 4 settlers and 10 workers, so we improve our cities asap, and I think that the granary will pay off. After 40 turns have passed, we should make sure to buy a foreing worker when one is availabe: 2 of them equal one native worker, and the native worker should join a city(better a city building a wonder).

Maybe we should research Pottery asap. IF we have a food bonus nearby the capital, the city is going to grow quickly, while it's terrain is constantly improved, and will soon become a shield-powerhouse for Wonder building after it pumps out the settlers/workers needed. Anyway, with the granary, the city will soon be able to growth to size 12 and have many shields every turn.

What do we do about the Wonders we want to build? We're missing Masonry(Pyramids) and Bronze Working(Colossus), and maybe Mysticism to switch a Wonder if needed.
I mean, we won't have something to build(Wonder) if we will take long to make contact with them. Our coastal city wouldn't be able to start Colossus.

Masonry also gives the palace-pre-build, and maybe a coastal city would make the pre-build and switch to Colossus, once we trade for Bronze Working.

We could go with Writing after Pottery, but we're risking a lot to stay behind in the Wonder Race. It's a gamble, but we could go for Writing at 10%(I still believe after Pottery), and be lucky and trade/pay for the techs we want, but for that to work, we need to meet quickly civs that have those techs.

I'll have a look at any SG's going for Cultural, if I can find any that starting with the same techs.

EDIT: @Sir_Ortin: I do consider all opinions before we decide on our strategy, yours including.

Grayarea

Sep 28, 2004, 06:05 AM

Before we start can we agree a standard turns report format? I don't know what type of thing you guys have used so I copied and ammended this from one of the sg games;

Pre-flight:
MM
rush settler in Cambridge
landings at Mpondo

1050Education from Germany for 60gpt

ITZulu + Ottomans sign peace

1060
Take + raze Mpondo. Found Portsmouth, Berwick. Rush temple in Exeter

1070
rush settlers in Yakaterinaburg. & Ngome

ITNetherlands and Zulu make nice

1080Rush harbor in Koningsberg
Take Ulundi

IBT
end RoP with Monte
Dutch building Magellans

1090
nothing

1100
rush temple in Portsmouth

1110
nothing

IBT
Ulundi deposes

1120
raze Zimbawbe
raze ulundi

IBT
spain + germany make nice
portugal + zulu make nice

1130
raze swazi, found Bath
disband boats in Bath, rush temple
up lux to 30

IBT
riot at Gloucester
Dutch ahead banking and astro

1140
raze ishwandala
peace with zulu for 2 gpt , Zulu Iron and Umfolozi
rush spear in Umfolozi
rush temple in Zulu Iron
rush colesseaums in koningsberg, exeter, portsmouth
lux to zero

1150
blah blah

thoughts: Plans you have, what should be acheieved in the next turns, if you are moving units where you intended them to go etc.

What do you think?

Are we ready to start?

King Alexander

Sep 28, 2004, 06:31 AM

I'd also like to see a log with dates. My own format is like this;
3000BC (1)
blah-blah
blah-blah

2950BC (2)
.......
.......

I think it qualifies.

Yes, we are about to start soon; I'm just having a look to SG cultural games, to get any ideas. I think it's worth the time, so we know what we're doing.

At the latest, I'd play tomorrow, if not today(I think it worths the delay).

An idea would be to start a temple/Wonder in our second city asap(another in the capital after a while), but we can't start a temple/Wonder in our second city because we can't build any with our starting techs.

I'l' search to find specific 5CC SG games; do you know any?

Grayarea

Sep 28, 2004, 06:42 AM

I will have a look during lunch.

It is a good idea to append the turn number to the date entry, I just noticed that the date entires in the example do not have them.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=96264
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=92437
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=79844

I went back six pages for these, there was a couple more, all at diety or above so I did not include them.

Sir_Ortin

Sep 28, 2004, 09:25 AM

@King Alexander:
I'm afraid I do not understand your strategy about wonders. Why we should build them in two our cities? I can see just 2 reasons - 100K victory or just not leave them to AI.
First reason: we can not afford it, because we have only 5 cities.
Second reason: I'm afraid that if we will build wonders in 2 sities, remaining 3 would not be enough for building army/buildings/etc.

I think that we should build wonders only in one city going for 20K. All other cities must make army for our military invasions to our neighbors for leader harvesting.

Anyway, this is a far-planning, which will be actual only later in the game.

King Alexander

Sep 28, 2004, 02:41 PM

@Sir_Ortin: There are Wonders in the Middle Ages that we would definetly want: we CAN grab almost all the Wonders in that Age: Sistine, Bach's, Copernicus, Smith's, Shakespeer's, and Newton's. We'd need them to keep our people happy, research at a faster rate, increase our income, etc.

In the Industrial Age, again we can grab ALL the Wonders; Universal Suffrage, ToE, and Hoover Dam.

That, of course, requires pre-builds; usually, it's my second-strongest city that grabs them by palace pre-builds; Sistine, Bach, Smiths, as well as the Wonders in the IA.

Why leave to the AI any Wonders??? The problem is in the Ancient Age; what Wonders to leave to the AI?

Oracle(Pyramids), Great Library are the Wonders we want in the Ancient Age; if we also could get the Pyramids, that would be great, but that wouldn't come from the second city.

We must spot a perfect place for our second city, near a river and with lots of grassland, and start a temple right away, while our capital supplies the city with 2 workers to improve the land asap(India has slow workers).
The second city could then begin a granary pre-build, and aim for the Oracle/Pyramids(probably Oracle, so we start our pre-build for the GL sooner).
I think, we can make it to for the second city to also start a pre-build for the GL.

I'd still research Pottery asap; if we can can pop it from a goody hut, or trade for it, we could start minimum on Writing right away, and go for Literature.

Anyway, I wouldn't want us to have war in mind, until the mid of the Industrial age, and after we have rails all over the place.
We don't want any other civ to settle the land and reach Domination, that's why I'd hesitate for a complete war.
If this is a pangea map, I wouldn't have a problem to go for conquest; I did exactly that, in a 5CC I played these days to "practise".

OK, we could re-discuss all these while the game has begun; maybe we'll need to change something on our strategy.

If you all agree, I could start.

P.S.: about Matternich's suggestion to settle on spot, what do you say? Maybe this map is a little "manipulated". I'd go as I planned - crossing the river with the settler, worker to the BG first, to see more of the map.

Matternich

Sep 28, 2004, 02:47 PM

There's a tendency for the starting positions to be good without the need for settler movement because they have had a human hand drawing them, regardless of whether GOTM or an altered SGOTM. The geography hasn't changed and counting tiles to the coast just one square east over the river may possibly cramp an eastern city. Dont hold me to that. I'd hate to be wrong. ;)

Its not a major issue and ultimately the starting player makes the choice as its their turn but it's good that there is team input to draw from in making decisions big or small. After all as team we are competing against the AI. It's where the other 2-5 cities are going thats the prob, because we can be more selective and that makes for a harder choice.

Reading the 5 city article suggests the cities ringing the capital need not be as close as normal so that for the loss of a few corruption tiles (if that) its good to ensure there are no shared tiles. Corruption increases with amount of cities as well as distance from capital. So with only five there's no worry about the ring being one or two squares further away.

Again pottery isnt a bad choice though 8 times out of 10 you can earn it from a trade (and masonry) before the time a prebuilt granary is up- then again there's always the 2 out of 10 chance of not buying/trading for it and then wishing we had researched it to begin with. I'm not too worried as the burden of all these decisions will fall on KingAlex's shoulders- he can take the blame. ;)

Pyramids isn't that great as it puts a granary in all cities of which only 4 will need them (assuming the captial has one before the Pyramids are up.) It's early high culture points would be useful for a cultural victory though so worth considering depending on how things are shaping up. If we decide to rush there's also the possibility of an early leader which could take care of this for us. Any other victory condition wonders arent as important except for GLibrary.

That idea of a coastal city being a wonder city is good as any missed big ones like Pyramids can switch to Collosus/GLighthouse.

King Alexander

Sep 28, 2004, 03:57 PM

King Alexander

Sep 28, 2004, 06:45 PM

>>SAVE<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_BC2900_01.SAV)

As I had said, I moved the worker to the SE BG, before moving the settler 1E, but then I screamed: HOLY COW!!! Er… there is a cow 2S of the starting point, so no need to move the settler anymore.
Btw: we’re almost at the NE corner of the minimap.

Settle on spot, and we see spices to the north.

4000BC (1)
Carthage(???) is found, and starts a warrior – Our only citizen works the BG, of course.
Select Writing to go with, minimum at 20% for now.

3950BC (2)
Worker was going to start a mine, when I saw that he needs 3 turns to complete it(what’s this, and industrious worker?). Anyway, he starts the mine.

3900BC (3)
Zzzzzzzzz

3850BC (4)
Zzzzzzzz

Oh, btw: hitting F10, our opponents are;
1) India, 2) Greece, 3) Ottomans, 4) Rome, 5) Babylon, 6) Persia, 7) Vikings, 8) Keltoi, 9) Germany.
Now, it isn’t fair! 5 Scientific civs?

3800BC (5)
Worker completes mine, starts a road.

3750BC (6)
Carthage: warrior >> warrior

Btw: We can build Pyramids, meaning, our starting techs were Masonry and Writing. We miss CB of course, but we could pre-build the Pyramids for a quick temple in our second city, anyway.

Warrior goes to the mountain, and we see 2 more spices to the north.

3700BC (7)
Worker: road >> goes to the cow to irrigate; we’ll get it in 4 turns from now with the border expansion. Moving the worker, reveals oysters to the south coast.

3650BC (8)
Worker starts a road, as I didn’t want to waste a move: we must irrigate a tile to the east to “drag” water, and unfortunately, that’s a BG tile. Anyway, we can mine it soon later on.
To the West we see hills and mountains.
Finally, we can drop our science to 10%, Writing in 32.

3600BC (9)
Keep exploring.

3550BC (10)
Carthage: warrior >> warrior.
Worker finishes road, goes to irrigate/road nearby.

HOLY COW, again! Another cow “stands” to the east, good for a coastal city, with 2 BG’s and 2 hills/grassland; the problem is that the city there would overlap 2 tiles with capital. Anyway, it’s a good spot, and the capital won’t use the full 21 tiles without a hospital.
Btw: Carthage grows to pop2.

3500BC (11)
We see more mountains/hills to the east, along with a sheep on hills. I’m not familiar with all these new bonuses, but clicking it, it says * Food 2, Shields 2*.

3450BC (12)
We see another sheep at the west, next to the previous one, and a lot of mountains: we should come and settle here later, because those hills could have iron, and better we control them, than belong to an AI(harder to attack).

The coastal spot to the east I mentioned earlier, might be a PERFECT spot for our second city: it has 1 cow, 3 BG’s, 3 hills, and a whale to get, after the border expansion, and all that are surrounded by grassland.

3400BC (13)
Carthage: warrior >> warrior.
Worker completes road, starts irrigating the BG in 2.

3350BC (14)
Keep exporing

3300BC (15)
The land to the East comes to an end: probably our opponents are somewhere behind those mountains(another reason to settle there).

Worker starts irrigating the cow.

3250BC (16)
Carthage: warrior >> settler

3200BC (17)
Worker: irrigate >> mine.

3150BC (18)
Settler in 4

3100BC (19)
We spot IVORY on the north toundra.

3050BC (20)
After a long thinking, I decide that the worker should leave Carthage and go towards our second city, so he can begin to road/connect it, and irrigate the cow.

3000BC (21)
I KNOW that it’s turn 21, but I counted my initial moves, also. Mad-bax stated that the first player should play until the end of 3000BC.

We spot 2 more ivory on the north(3 total), as 3 are the spices nearby.

I ask the Team to forgive what I’m going to do; I’ll play a bit more(maybe 1 turn, or 2), it isn’t illegal if the Team accepts it(and in some cases it can be done with a good reason). Otherwise, I’ll play less turns the next time.

I spotted RED borders to the SW(I suspect Babylon or Rome), and I only want to see what techs they have; I won’t trade at my last turn, but better to know who they are and what techs/Contacts they know. (unfortunately, there hasn’t appeared the “D” to hit it and know the civ this turn).

2950BC (21)
No contact; next turn I’ll enter inside the borders.

Carthage: settler >> barracks.

2900BC (22)
Carthage grows to size 2(we don’t need the granary, after all, for 5 cities).
Settler moves again.
Worker starts irrigating the grassland, so he will “drag” the water to irrigate the cow(in which the settler is now standing).

Here’s the deal:
The civ is Rome, and already has founded it’s second city, Veii.
They have Bronze Working, Warrior Code, Ceremonial Burial and 10g(they must traded with someone), and they don’t build a Wonder yet.
We have Masonry and 100g(Writing in 18).

Summary
1) We don’t have anyone on our back and can settle quietly. After a long think, I’d propose NOT to settle on the hill, but go 1N of the hill; this way, the city would lose a whale(only 1 shield, anyway) and a BG, but would still be on the coast, and get 4 BG’s after the border expansion, and would also have a cow, 2 hills 3 forests(more BG’s) to work, and on 1 forest there are spices to get(more gold).
2) We have 4 warriors total; 1 fortified in Carthage, 2 near the borders of Rome(1 inside them) and 1 warrior near the ivory. The warrior near the ivory should go and stay fortified in our second city; I sent the settler unescorted, since there were no barbs nearby.
3) I suggest that we settle our third city towards the mountains.
4) The settler should NOT settle on the hill east of him, but settle 1N of the hill; we still have a coastal city, we get 4 BG’s (with the border expansion), 2 hills, can work 3 forests – more BG’s, and 1 of them has spices – more gold).

Tech-trading options:
a) We can trade and get a tech immediately or
b) We can explore more to find new contacts which will also lower the value of the techs, and to know the map better.

Rome knows BW(spears) and WC(archers), and it’ll take some time to prepare us for an attack, but it would throw us out of the Wonder Race; we could always trade for WC, let the second city to build temple/Wonder and Carthage build enough archers(and 1 worker soon), and attack Rome.

Thing is that the land there will be settled by another civ, and we don’t want to lose by Domination; we can always attack all the civs in our continent, somewhere at the Industrial age.

I’d say, explore a bit more towards Rome(take the warrior out of their borders first), so we know if we’re in an island alone with Rome(or 1 more civ); in this case, Rome will probably attack soon after it has no room for expansion.

We could settle 3 more cities, build barracks and attack first, but that would take a little time.

EDIT: Maybe we need to change our strategy with the GL; ONLY the capital has a river and it's going to make it to size 12, and it's the only river in our lands.
I'm thinking that the Great Lighthouse might be crucial to get other contacts.

Of course, if we pre-build for the Great Lighthouse in the second city, we probably need to build the Great Library in our Capital.
Anyway, the second city will need a temple to expand it's radious and get all the goodies.

EDIT2: Sorry, but I can't upload dot-map, no matter how many times I try(always have problems with uploading jpg's here). Maybe I could send it by e-mail to one member, so he posts it.

Grayarea

Sep 29, 2004, 05:16 AM

In view of our suprise race the following in a usefull read.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=92639

Grayarea

Sep 29, 2004, 06:03 AM

I have not looked at the save yet, but plan to play tonight so I just want to go over what is expected of me ;)

As I understand the priotities;

Explore but don't pop huts.
Carthage build another settler. Do we need to escort at this stage?
AK has specified the position of the city I will found, I expect my turn will be up before I get out another settler.

Grayarea

Sep 29, 2004, 06:07 AM

Roster;

1 KA - Just played
2 Gray - Playing next
3 Matter - get ready
4 Sir Ortin
5 Alex top

King Alexander

Sep 29, 2004, 06:53 AM

@Grayarea: Please, wait for the members to say their opinion first and discuss it; SGOTM's have a 24h "got it, and 72h to post the save, according to the rules.

We're in no hurry; what we'll decide from now on, it will affect the whole game later on.

1) of course you should pop huts, if you find any in hills/mountains.
I didn't saw any until now - maybe there aren't any of them, who knows?.
Because of the hut-scarcity, maybe we'll decide to pop one in flat ground.

2) The barracks in Carthage could be changed to a warrior, and then another settler, although we might decide to build them shortly after, to have veteran units. Don't send the settler unescorted this time. Make sure that Carthage will have pop3 or grow to pop 3 at the same turn when it builds the settler.

When Carthage drops back to pop1, work the cow with our only citizen to gorw quickly.

3) I suggest to settle our 3rd city to the Hill behind the first sheep; with a temple/library, most of those hills/mountains will be ours after the border expansion, and with walls, the city will be hard to fall.
We should reinforce this city with spears/catapults when we can.
Our borders will be there.

The 3rd city will also have a river nearby, and with 2 sheeps, will grow reasonably(it also has some grassland and 1 plain to irrigate along with the hills).

I bet Rome will soon want to settle there, to grab the hills/mountains - Iron may be there. Anyway, it's better to control the mountains and expand towards the AI in the little land we can have.

4) Despite some overlaping(2 tiles) with the capital, our next city will never use all of it's own expansion tiles, before it gets an aqueduct, and even then there're other tiles to grab.

5) Start a temple to the second city to expand it's borders and grab all the BG's; later we will pre-build the palace. We might also cut the forests, to help the city finish the temple sooner(our workers are fast enough).

I'll wait to see what the other players say.

Sir_Ortin

Sep 29, 2004, 07:21 AM

I have downloaded save and will take it home for analysis. (At home I have no Inet :( ) I will send my opinion tomorrow morning when I came to work.

Grayarea

Sep 29, 2004, 07:44 AM

OK if everyone is happy then I will play tomorrow night.

Gives me a chance to whip the zulu some more in GOTM 35 ;)

Grayarea

Sep 29, 2004, 02:08 PM

Here is the dot map.

Matternich

Sep 29, 2004, 04:04 PM

@King Alex did you play 1 turn less than you should have?

@ Gray Area- Your coloured dots aren’t in bad positions but there are shared tiles.
We need every city to have as many shield producing tiles of its own- not cross overs or sharing with other cities.

Here's 3 of my suggested positions with the expanded borders.
King Alex's suggestion for his 3rd city fits with this configuration-
(the tile north east of the warrior on Graybeards map)
but I think crosses over 1 mountain tile with the purple city but that's
not so bad.

As to the order of them I think it has to be how the player sees it when it's their turn.

Trade masonry with rome for 2 tech and 55 gold before they buy it from another civ. I hope we find a civ with pottery soon.

King Alexander

Sep 30, 2004, 01:19 AM

@Matternich: Actually, I played my full 20 turns, plus 2 more turns to have the contact with Rome.

The dot-map is the map I send to Grayarea by e-mail; I know that there are shared tiles, but we'd use more grassland overal this way.

It's what I see as the best places to have an RCP, AND make our cities really powerful, working as more grassland/BG's/hills as we can, AND to NOT allow the AI to settle anywhere nearby to our land after they expand their borders(we may need a couple warriors fortified to cover all the land).

I definetly wouldn't want any foreing troops to cross our land all the time, if they settle here, and if they do settle, we raze the city later and our culture will cover the land.

I'll explain my thoughts on the first map:

1) The capital will have 19 tiles to work(with the tile it is), despite the overlap with the second city; I think they're more than enough, and all the most of them are grasslland and there's also 1 plains and 1 mountain. It already has 2 BG's, and maybe there's a 3rd above the forest.
It'll need a hospital to grow 5 more citizens and get to pop17, from size 12.

2) The second city(green dot) will have 17 tiles to work, will not grow to 12 before it get's an aqueduct, so it stays to pop6 for some time, and even if it'll share 2 tiles with the red dot to the north, at 15 tiles will have: 4 BG's, 2 hills, 3 forests - 1 with the spices(more gold), and above the forests more BG's might be "waiting" for us.
It's radius will expand and will cover the most of the east peninsula(with a fortified warrior, we'll not allow the AI to settle there).

3) red-dot: will use 17 tiles, including in them 4 coastal squares; 2 BG, 3 hills, 5 grassland, 4 coastal squares, and 6 toundra tiles; it'll also need an aqueduct to grow past 6, and it'll be a good city.

By placing the city there, we'll make sure that with the border expansion, we'll grab the 3 ivory also, so we can trade for techs/gold.

4) The blue-dot will have FULL 12 tiles to work from the start, and 4-6 more coastal tiles - 15-16 maximum; 1 BG, 1 forest(maybe a BG), the spices forest(more gold) and more than enough grassland, and it's also in the "right" distance from the capital.
It won't share any tiles with other cities.

5) Pink-dot; will also not share any tiles with other cities, and it's in nearly perfect distance from the capital.
a) it will grab most of the hills/mountains that we need to have/control
b) it has 2 sheeps, 3 plains, 4 hills, mountains to work, is in a river, and will also be a very strong-shield city; plenty of food will allow us to work the hills/mountains.
c) it WON'T allow the AI to settle anywhere from behind.
d) Sure, we won't grab those pearls, so what? We'll have more than enough food/shields for this city, that is worthing more.
e) NOBODY will be able to get past those mountains to attack us if we reinforce this city good and place a few spears in those mountains.

Just my thoughts.

Sir_Ortin

Sep 30, 2004, 05:18 AM

@KA:
I did not agree with you that you have know and, despite on that, have played 2 more turns. I think that this is a kind of disrespect to Grayarea...

King Alexander

Sep 30, 2004, 05:43 AM

I had said that if the Team wouldn't approve what I did, I'd be responsible for my actions.

I apologize to Grayarea and the Team, for playing 2 more turns.

I will play 8 turns next time.

If the Team decides that I should play less than 8 turns next time, or skip my turn and play 8 turns in the Team's "3rd cycle", I'll accept it.

KA

Sir_Ortin

Sep 30, 2004, 07:14 AM

No, you should not play just 8 turns next time, but fully 10. This is a team play, and you should not make our team weaker next round. ;)

As to contact with Rome - of cource, this is much more interesting to play with some active events (trade/war/etc.) in the game. But rule is rule: the closer we take it, the more accurate will be our result, and more fun to everyone of us.

Grayarea

Sep 30, 2004, 07:43 AM

@all

KA has posted some analysis on his city placement dot map, what do you all think?

I will be playing tonight so if you want to give me something to think about then this afternoon is the time :)

My take on the city placement issue;

@Matternich, where do you propose to put the last city? This will affect my decision on the second city placement.

While KAs placement may not be optimal after we get to sanitation it would use all of the available land on the peninsular and stop other civs plopping cities behind our lines, and I think that is important, as it will make defence easier.

I know if I was playing this I would defiantly not have won by the time sanitation is discovered, but with you guys around, who knows ;)

Not having played a SG before I am not aware of the relevance of AK taking 2 extra turns. I do not feel 'dissed' however :)

Grayarea

Sep 30, 2004, 01:08 PM

Got it;

Will play in a couple of hours, last chance for any direction and / or thoughts :)

King Alexander

Sep 30, 2004, 01:40 PM

First, I just say my opinion; no one is forced to follow it - only Grayarea is the one that
could decide a general plan.

I don't know what we're going for in this 5CC;
if we're going for cultural/Diplo/Space, we should forget about wars until the IA - we cannot settle any more than 5 cities, and when we're going for war, it'll be mainly for luxuries/resources.

First thing to do, is to buy/trade(I'd make sure to haggle enough for the price) CB and start a temple in the second city, and begin a Pyramids pre-built for Colossus(when we trade for BW, I'd change the pre-build to Colossus).

The capital could produce the warriors/settlers we want, as well as 1 worker for itself, so that when it finishes with the settlers, the land will be ready for a Wonder, like the Oracle and the GL.
Better to build a temple in the capital, before the Wonder.

Also, I'd keep exploring to find the other civ(s).

P.S.: for a city with grassland tiles to get to size 17-19, it'll take until the late Industrial Age(Sanitation/hospital is known in IA, and then a city needs MANY turns to increase it's pop by 5-7 more poplulation), so I still would go for the city placement of the first map.

Again, as I said, this is what I'd do; maybe I'm wrong in my judgement - no one is perfect.

EDIT: All the members have some experience playing civ - little or less, it doesn't matter.
All I'd want to see is, a log that explains the actions, so that the next player can understand what and why the previous player made those choices.

Grayarea

Sep 30, 2004, 03:12 PM

Save file attached.

Grayarea

Sep 30, 2004, 03:15 PM

Pre-flight

Nothing to check :)

IBT

Caesar asks us to get our warrior out of his territory, I move it W

2850BC (1)

ZZZ

2800BC (2)

Utica is founded on map1 green dot.
Bought CB for 75 from Caesar.
Utica > Temple
Worker roads to Cattle.
Northern warrior moves back to Utica.

2750BC (3)

ZZZ

2710BC (4)

ZZZ

2670BC (5)

Irrigated cow near Utica

2630BC (6)

ZZZ

2590 (7)

Road to BG NE of Utica
Warrior fortified to Utica now

IBT

Carthage Barracks > Warrior

2550BC (8)

ZZZ

IBT

Caesar kicks warrior again.

2470BC (9)

Mined BG near Utica

IBT

Carthage Warrior > Settler

2430BC (10)

ZZZ

I did not trade Masonry as I did not know if it effected any plans we have. Caesar is up BW, WC ATM.

Grayarea

Sep 30, 2004, 03:17 PM

Roster;

1 KA
2 Gray - Just played
3 Matter - Playing next
4 Sir Ortin - get ready
5 Alex top

Grayarea

Sep 30, 2004, 03:20 PM

@KA,

Why do you irrigate a food tile (cow)? I thought that under despotism you just waste the extra food and you are better of mining it. Inquiring minds want to know ;)

@all

On the matter of the win target, what type of win should we aim for?

As this is played under my name am I expect to decide? (hope not)

Alex Top

Sep 30, 2004, 05:18 PM

Hi.

This is our (with Sir_Ortin) opinion about places for our cities.
First city - red, because settler is almost there.
Second city - blue. We need capture that place first. The long distance from palace is not a problem, as we will build there a forbidden palace.
Third sity - Green. This will block our territory from Rome settlers at first until they run out of land.
Fourth city - Yellow.

The + is that we will cover a large amount of mountains and almost all hills (just 2 we miss). This will increase our chance of quickly obtaining an iron and coal, also increasing our production.
The quantity of overlapped tiles is minimum - just one.

As to warriors - the southest (which have contacted Rome) should continue it's trip to south, second should wait until we found blue city.

King Alexander

Oct 01, 2004, 02:41 AM

@Grayarea: In Despotism you get 1 food less, because of the penalty. Anyway, with irrigation you get much more food, so you simply lose 1 food in Despotism, but you get more than before.
A settler drops the city's pop by 2, so we need the extra food for our city to grow quicker.
Irrigating food bonus is what one should do for a settler factory(even if he needs only 4 cities); later on, you can mine it when you don't need anymore a produce settlers.

As for the second city's cow, it could stay irrigated until the city has pop6 and grows faster to that pop, then it should be mined, to get the Wonder sooner.

I haven't yet seen the save. I'll have a look to it.

King Alexander

Oct 01, 2004, 03:09 AM

So, it looks like we're in an island alone with Rome and that worries me a bit. Rome will think to attack when it has no more land to grab and legions would be real killers for us.

For Wonders, we'd definetly need the Great Lighthouse to make contacts.

More later.

Sir_Ortin

Oct 01, 2004, 04:31 AM

Hi all!
Did anyone have a look at Alex_Top screenshots?
We propose to found next 2 cities towards the Rome. If we would be lucky, we will leave them without Iron. Any suggestions?

Grayarea

Oct 01, 2004, 04:48 AM

How big would the two new proposed cities grow?

I can see the advantages of blocking iron to Caesar.

Sir_Ortin

Oct 01, 2004, 04:59 AM

Two southest cities can reach (at despotism, at monarchy even bigger.) size 6. And they could be used for building an army for future conquering of Rome. But this should be done quickly.

King Alexander

Oct 01, 2004, 05:13 AM

I did take a look at the 2 sceenshots, but I still think that I'd go for the first map(our 3rd city would be on the hill above the first sheep).
I think that it's the best RNG we can have.

If we decide to go for war, it's better to start preparing for it now that Ceasar hasn't legions ATM(I hope that Rome isn't sitting on an iron resource!); if Rome knows IW, it'll take them a while to road the iron, and they're busy trying to settle the land.

Our second city should change the temple to barracks to help us, make a worker and start pump archers. We'd need 2 workers to develop the land in each of our 2 cities(more shields to pump archers sooner), and 2 more workers to road towards our 3rd city(probably start walls) and to Rome, so our units go there quickly.

Ceasar will trade WC for Masonry + 18g; we could take the deal.

He'll also trade bothe WC and BW for Masonry +86g +2gpt - that's something we have to think of; it's a risk that might work or not, depending on how well we'll do in war; are we allowed to make false peace treatment, get the techs/gold and destroy the civ?

If Ceasar doesn't yet know IW, he surely must researching it ATM.
If we do well in war, maybe we should destroy Rome and the threat once and for all.

Again, war it's just an idea that I propose; we could stay at peace and hope that Ceasar won't attack.
We must decide what we'll do.

EDIT: Ok, we're allowed to make false peace treaties; make peace for all the techs/gold of the enemy civ and declare again, that is.

Sir_Ortin

Oct 01, 2004, 06:52 AM

@Mad-Bax:
Is it allowed to use program 'CivAssist' in our SGOTM game? I'd like to use it. This is a great program for those who play Civ3.

Grayarea

Oct 01, 2004, 07:07 AM

I think I am correct in saying both civassist and crpmapstat are OK.

mad-bax

Oct 01, 2004, 08:32 AM

Yes: CivAssist is an allowed utility, as are all of Dianthus' utilities.

Sir_Ortin

Oct 01, 2004, 09:31 AM

Does Grayarea has a problem with uploading our saves?

@Mad-Bax: Could you, plz., upload attached save instead of Grayarea? I think he had some technical troubles for doing that himself.

@Matternich: Are you ready to play? If no, I will download save and play tomorrow.

Grayarea

Oct 01, 2004, 09:35 AM

Sir_Ortin,

I don't understand your question?

If Matternich has not posted a gotit by 21:30 tonight, he will be skipped and you are up next :)

Sir_Ortin

Oct 01, 2004, 09:39 AM

Grayarea, what is your timezone? My is +2.

Grayarea

Oct 01, 2004, 09:50 AM

I am BST which is currently (GMT+1)

King Alexander

Oct 01, 2004, 01:03 PM

People, let's give Matternich the full 24 hours; maybe he just had something to do in real life. Most of us work.

btw: we're not discussing things enough. I don't know what each member is going to do. We're going nowhere if we're not discussing things and justify our opinions.
We ALL need to agree to the game plan, and I certainly would like to hear ALL the players opinion, Matternich included.

With all respect

KA

King Alexander

Oct 01, 2004, 01:34 PM

Here is the latest save, renamed to Grayarea and uploaded to SGOTM submission form.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_BC2430_01.SAV

Grayarea

Oct 02, 2004, 05:40 AM

Roster;

1 KA
2 Gray
3 Matter - Skipped
4 Sir Ortin - Playing next
5 Alex top - Get ready

@KA

I don't see where it was suggested that Matternich not be given the full 24hrs???

The rules are very clear, if you do not post a "got it" post within 24hrs of the previous player playing, you are auto skipped. I also PMed him.

@all

I don't know how much things are discussed as I have never played a SG before! I am happy to discuss stratergy more, but my input may be limited due to my experiance.

I also value any input on what I should do during my turns :)

King Alexander

Oct 02, 2004, 11:56 AM

1) The rules are made to be broken; that's what we did in all SGOTM's before in our Team. They aren't written with stone.
If the Team needs more time to decide on it's strategy, say, 1 day more, no one is forced to play, if they all agree.
I find it a bit tiresome to refer to the rules all the time.

If the best players needed more time to make the Team's strategy, I was waiting and listen carefully what they said.

example: 1 member posts "I got it" after 24h, and we have 72h to fully discuss our strategy, before the member plays. If the Team needs more time and all agree, they can have more time.

Rules help to keep the game going, but that doesn't mean that if a Team needs more time it can't have it if it's members agree. This isn't a SG, it's a SGOTN and long discussions could be vital for the Team's outcome.

2) When I say that we're not making enough discussions, I really mean it. I bet that the other Teams are having lengthy discussions before they do whatever. Anyone could look in past SGOTM's and see what I mean.

I don't know what the others say of a possible war, or stay in peace; I have justified my opinion on both positive/negative aspects of peace and war.

I have justified my dot-map; What else do I need to say, really?

I played 2 extra turns, so we could discuss the trades that we were going to make, but I didn't see any discussions.

Anyway, I'll follow what the others say.
Just say me what you want me to do, and I'll do it: I'm not trying to be the bad guy/bully here, that is(for what I said above).

Grayarea

Oct 02, 2004, 02:05 PM

@KA

I don't believe anyone thinks the worse of you :)

It is good to have someone who is vocal about their views.

Matternich, Sir_ortin, your views please :)

Sir_Ortin

Oct 03, 2004, 03:57 AM

@KA: You are a really nice good guy, who drugs all others behind of you. :)

@All:
I'm going to play right today, then Alex Top. Matternich could play after us. This is what we have done in our previous SGOTM - changed order. As KA sayed, we all have to work in real life and play only when we have time for fun.

So: I got the save now, yeahh!!!

Sir_Ortin

Oct 03, 2004, 06:44 AM

Hi all!

My thoughts:
1. Connect all cities ASAP.
2. Build barracks and prepare for war with Rome.
3. If we will be lucky, we could take Iron and even produce a Leader.

Before war we should by all possible techs from Rome (for gpt).

Sir_Ortin

Oct 03, 2004, 06:45 AM

Sir_Ortin first period:

2430BC(32) - Traded BronzeWorking and Warrior Code for 83g + 2gpt + Masonry with Rome.

2390BC(33) - Zzz.

2350BC(34) - Barb warriors are coming from the north-west to Utica. Carthage builded Settler, start on Warrior.

2310BC(35) - Killed 1 barb warrior.

2270BC(36) - Killed 2 barb warriors. Carthage builded Warrior, started on Settler.

2230BC(37) - Lost warrior to barb.

2190BC(38) - Zzz.

2150BC(39) - Discovered Writning. Start Literature at 10%. Traded our Writing + 44g for Iron Working with Rome. Terrible news: there are NO IRON on our continent, only near Rome capital. We definitely need a strong defence in our south cities.

2110BC(40) - Zzz.

2070BC(41) - Zzz.

2030BC(42) - Carthage builded settler. Start on Warrior.

Alex Top

Oct 03, 2004, 06:51 AM

Alex Top first period:
2030BC(42) - Ok.
1990bc(43) - ok.
1950bc(44) - Found two cities: Leptis Magna (taked 25g from barb village) and Theveste.
1910bc(45) - Carthage built warior, started temple.
1870bc(46) - ok.
1830bc(47) - Utica built settler, started worker.
1790bc(48) - ok.
1750bc(49) - Traded pottery for 75g with Rome.
1725bc(50) - ok.
1700bc(51) - Found new city Hippo.
1675bc(52) - Finish.

Alex Top

Oct 03, 2004, 06:58 AM

Hi.

We need build Spartan Hoplite and send him to pillage road on Rome iron. Triggered Golden Age will help us to build army/buildings for postgoing war with Rome.

Good luck to next player. Suppose it will be Matternich.

Grayarea

Oct 03, 2004, 07:16 AM

Roster;

1 KA - Get ready
2 Gray
3 Sir Ortin
4 Alex top - Just played
5 Matternich - Playing next

Grayarea

Oct 03, 2004, 07:25 AM

@all

What are are short and medium term goals?

Sir_Ortin

Oct 04, 2004, 01:02 AM

@ Grayarea:
I understand that this is just a general question.
Ok, I'll try to explain it on our SGOTM game as example:
Short-term goal for our SGOTM is to kill (or dramatically slow down) the Rome.
Medium-term goal is to research (or demand for peace) the mapmaking and sail off from our island for searching contacts.
Long-term goal - win the game. :) Or be first who started building the spaceship.

Of cource, these goals are changed all the time depending on the situation.

King Alexander

Oct 04, 2004, 02:49 AM

1) Carthage should be making units and workers after the temple. We need a worker per city to imrpove the terrain. Also, 1 citizen of Carthage works the forest and the city grows in 7, when it should be working a BG-grows in 5 and still needs 3 turns for the temple.
2) Leptis Magna and Theveste need to be reinforced by 1-2 Spartan Hoplites and an archer soon.
3) Leptis Magna should probably go for walls.

I'm not sure anymore for war; it may take many turns before we improve the terrain and build barracks and the units we need for a war.

With the current city placement, we need the temple in Hippo to grab the BG's and the city's terrain isn't worked to be ready to produce units. Then the city would need barracks.

Theveste would also need many turns to build both temple and barracks, and Leptis Magna is a corrupt city already; only a courthouse would help.

Rome still can settle 1 more city in it's backyard and then settle 3 cities around our us; west of Carthage, east and north of Uttica.

I hope Matternich will post soon.

King Alexander

Oct 04, 2004, 05:07 PM

Has anyone heard of Matternich? It's been a few days now that he hasn't post.

Sir_Ortin

Oct 05, 2004, 12:52 AM

I suppose that King Alexander should start playing, skipping Matternich.
It's a pity, but true...

King Alexander

Oct 05, 2004, 05:24 AM

>>SAVE<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_BC1475_01.SAV)

IBT
Rome starts the Pyramids.

1650BC (1)
Zzzzzz

1625BC (2)
Nothing interesting.

1600BC (3)
Zzzzz.

1575BC (4)
Carthage: temple >> worker.

Btw: that barb camp near Hippo is really annoying.

1550BC (5)
Zzzzzz

1525BC (6)
Carthage: worker >> worker.

We destroy the barb camp and we get 25g.

1500BC (7)
Utica: barracks >> warrior.

1475BC (8)
Carthage: worker >> warrior.

A barb is approaching Hippo; the warrior should be safe fortified in the hill.

Summary
1) Ceasar hasn’t learnt any tech, and Rome is building the Pyramids.
2) We need to have 2 warrior in every city for MP. The luxury is at 10%.
3) Connect those spices with a worker. A worker is going to connect Hippo and Leptis Magna. Maybe we need one more worker to have one for each city, so we improve the terrain fast.
4) Literature in 19 turns, 212g, + 12gpt.
5) Maybe an archer should go and destroy the barb camp near the ivory, and stay there so we could “see” the area and no more camps would appear.

P.S.: We are again in the correct date for the save, by playing 8 turns.

EDIT: I forgot to establish an embassy with Rome! Do it in the pre-turn; it costs 31 gold and we need to see what size Rome is(I thought that we already had an embassy with Ceasar :blush: ). We also need to know when Rome will finish the Pyramids.

Sir_Ortin

Oct 05, 2004, 07:49 AM

@ King Alexander:
Being in correct date is a good thing, as it allows to compare our result (score) with other teams. But it was no necessary. :)

@All. Having respawning barb camps is not a bad deal, as we can took from it 25g each time it's respawned. I think that until middle age we can harvest barbs for gold/units upgrade. And we need finish with them not earlier until a massive barb invasion can occure.

Research:
Next research after Literature should be MapMaking at max., IMHO.

Embassy:
I (and Alex Top) did not make embassy because it was too expencive, and we needed gold to buy techs. But now it is in our ToDo list.

Sir_Ortin

Oct 05, 2004, 07:58 AM

Oops!!

We are still in incorrect date, if it can be said. I have lookd at Download page a table with saves, our current turn is No.61. And majority of all other teams has 10x turn saves. A closer investigation shows that Grayarea played 11 turns. :) This is not a problem. This just explains why our turn is No.61.

Alex Top

Oct 05, 2004, 04:40 PM

Hallo.
@All. I think we must begin a war as fast as possible :eek: . Rome cities are small. I think Ceasar have no many legions now. But if he'll make a lot we can forget about war and can pray for the peace. I think we must build Spartan Hoplites but not warriors.

Good luck for us

Grayarea

Oct 06, 2004, 02:29 AM

Roster;

1 KA - Just played
2 Gray - Playing next
3 Sir Ortin - Get ready
4 Alex top
5 Matternich - skipped

Sir_Ortin

Oct 07, 2004, 01:09 AM

Does anyone knows where are Grayarea and Matternich?
Because they did not have written here that they would skip, I suppose that they just need more free time to play Civ3.
So, we will give them one more day (and night) to post here at least. If they will not appear here, then I will download save and play game turns.

King Alexander

Oct 07, 2004, 03:29 AM

Grayarea will probably play tonight; I think, he forgot to post a "got it" after he posted the roster yesterday.

I don't know what happened to Matternich.

Grayarea

Oct 07, 2004, 03:58 AM

Got it :)

What should the goals of my turns be?

I need some suggestions :)

I will be playing tonight.

King Alexander

Oct 07, 2004, 10:54 AM

Don't worry, you aren't going to conquer the world with the units we currently have.
Just develop the land and watch what Ceasar is up to; techs, establish embassy(tell how many turns Rome needs to build the Pyramids adn how many shields per turn produces), sell maps when you can, etc...

We also need to have 2 units for MP in every city.

Grayarea

Oct 07, 2004, 03:32 PM

Pre-flight

All citizens appear to be working in best config.

IBT

Utica Warrior > Warrior

1450BC (1)

Warrior kills conscript warrior.

IBT

Carthage Warrior > Warrior

1425BC (2)

Warrior kills horseman

IBT

Utica Warrior > Warrior

1400BC (3)

ZZZ

IBT

Carthage Warrior > Warrior

1375BC (4)

Remember to setup embassy with Rome.
Pyramids in 36 turns at 8 shields per turn, size is 4 growth in 3.

IBT

Utica Warrior > Hoplite

1350BC (5)

Warrior kills horseman

1325BC (6)

ZZZ

IBT

Carthage Warrior > Hoplite

1300BC (7)

ZZZ

1275BC (8)

ZZZ

IBT

Utica Hoplite > Hoplite

1250BC (9)

Sent Hoplite towards roman front

IBT

Carthage Hoplite > Hoplite

1225BC (10)

Send Hoplite towards Roman front

No trading was done, I will leave that to the next player.

Grayarea

Oct 07, 2004, 03:33 PM

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_BC1225_01.SAV

Here it is :)

Grayarea

Oct 07, 2004, 03:34 PM

Roster;

1 KA
2 Gray - Just played
3 Sir Ortin - Playing next
4 Alex top - Get ready
5 Matternich

Matternich

Oct 07, 2004, 04:59 PM

Hi guys- apologies. I Went AWOL simply because my I lost my net connection. I couldn't do anything about until now and hopefully I'm back online for good.
Will post my thoughts on the game soon as I have read all the back posts.

Sir_Ortin

Oct 08, 2004, 01:16 AM

Ok. Our team is full again. :)

So, I will play tomorrow at day. Suppose, Alex Top will play his turns next day.

King Alexander

Oct 08, 2004, 06:35 AM

I'll be away for the weekend.

Matternich

Oct 08, 2004, 06:40 AM

Ok have checked most of the posts and had a look at our latest position. I wish I had been able to make a come back on some of the reasons for my city plan and against the city plan we have now. Don’t want to be put a downer on things but the following post is what I would have made before I vanished.

Had to get it out my system so here goes-

1. Diplomatic victory is almost a whole age after sanitation. Space V is one and three quarters after. Cultural also. Are you not planning to stick around for completing the game because you never expected to reach that far? Population past 12 is important in these late stages of the game.

2. Worrying about Rome settling near us is another poor reason. It would be better to sacrifice build time/shields on military to physically block or occupy Rome’s settling potential rather than cramp our few cities. Even if we had to build a warrior for every square it would make more sense. Later we may be at war with Rome anyway.

3. I might be wrong here but isn’t Carthage a seafaring civ which gives a gold bonus on worked sea tiles? Not a major point but in the case of Utica that whale square looks enticingly out of reach especially as its already stealing two tiles from Carthage.
The good thing about sea tiles is that while you don’t have shields until Offshore Platform- which is a hell of allot earlier in this version of the game- you do have a minimum of 2 food every plain tile.
I Can’t help but think about the city that would have had oysters and rocks for 5 easy food. The mountains in the early game would have pushed up the tile count of this city and its gold also good. (Gold is important)

4. Score is based on population numbers. We have limited our maximum pop and so our final score. Population also can add scientists and tax men for greater tech/income- important in later stages.

You have to look at the long term.
Take the city Theiveste in its current position- in Monarchy for instance it will have a maximum of 19 food once fully worked, half that and you have a population of 10 and no more. That's already 2 below max which will affect shield count.
Even with the later food bonuses its never going to grow much beyond 12 and all the mountains will not be able to be worked. And it steals another tile from Carthage. That’s 3 tiles our capital has lost so after it does have its hospital its pop cap is reduced by 3 or 4. Not so important until you consider we only have five cities and every citizen counts.

Under different circumstances I would abandon the cities and resettle them but as it is it looks like we are stuck with them.

Also I know this is a few posts back for you guys but if you have the urge to play extra turns- don’t. One turn over accidentally is ok or even one turn under, but there’s no excuse to play extra simply because you ‘wanted to do something.’
If there’s something major going on, explain it in detail in your write up for the next player to follow. If it’s important I am sure they will.

Why didn’t we go for Pyramids? And why aren’t we prebuilding for Great Library? What about Collosus? Have we decided cultural victory is out?

Ok got all that off my chest.

Other than all that we are not doing too bad. Looks like it shaping up to be an interesting game.

ps. Yes destroy barbs so ivory can be had, ect.

Sir_Ortin

Oct 08, 2004, 07:54 AM

To Matternich and all:

I think that in long-run we need to destroy Rome and settle on it's land. May be this is not reliable, but I thought that 2 not good cities (in mountains) can produce military units for war with Rome. And once we capture their capital (or another good cities) they can be disbanded for sure.

As to seafaring civ - we are playing vanilla 1.29f, aren't we? So we are industrious and scientific. But no one is seafaring in this world.

King Alexander

Oct 08, 2004, 10:55 AM

Maybe the roster should change, so Matternich could play his first turns.

Under different circumstances I would abandon the cities and resettle them but as it is it looks like we are stuck with them.

The Team could decide to re-settle a couple of cities.

Why didn’t we go for Pyramids? And why aren’t we prebuilding for Great Library? What about Collosus? Have we decided cultural victory is out?

Who knows? I've never seen a decision on what we're aiming for. I've made proposals, I saw proposals, but I didn't saw a decision.

I was expecting to discuss a lot, BEFORE a player's turn, and AFTER as well, using strong arguments/justifying our acts/positions.

I'll follow the Team's plans, but this game just doesn't go well without a leader; I think, you should decide on which person will take the decisions; where to settle, what to do, pre-builds, etc... Now that Matternich is back, there are 4 possible leaders to choose from - I exclude myself from the leader list.

Matternich

Oct 09, 2004, 12:31 PM

@ Sir Ortin-

The idea of settling on Rome's land is not a good idea. Assumming we massed a large enough army and wiped them out- by the time we could settle there its rate of growth would be far behind any others which have already been settled. Also remember the further away from the capital the more corruption a city will have. In 5CC it's best to settle the 5 cities as quickly as possible so they have the most time to grow. Especially important for cultural victory where buildings gain CPt's the older they become.
Who knows if Rome manages to raze or capture one of our cities we will have to resettle like it or not.

I wasn't sure about the seafaring thing, after all the GOTM installations do strange things- Carthaginians are new to me as a civ as they are not even in Vanilla.

BTW how are you doing with the game nearly finished your turn?

@KAlex
Cultural is perhaps the easiest victory condition to mess up because it relies on wonder building which isn't always easy at the best of times. I would personally go for a Diplomatic but at the same time try keep our options open by actually aiming for all three until one seems the best. Then there's always Conquest.

It's too late to go for Pyramids- maybe Utica can try for it and fold into Collosus if it fails. GLib will alow us to accumulate wealth and forget tech for awhile but if we dont manage it a cultural victory will look less likely as it has good CPT. I say calculate how many turns till LIT and get Rome prebuilding for it or another city onto Palace in preparation.

I dont think we need a team leader as such but someone to summarize and organize everyone ideas would be good.

Sir_Ortin

Oct 10, 2004, 06:53 AM

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_BC0975_01.SAV

1225BC (0) - All ok.

1200BC (1) - Theveste built Temple, start on barracks. Utica roduction changed to build a Colossus.
1175BC(2) - Just moving.
1150BC(3) - Carthage built Hoplite, start another.
1125BC(4) - Just moving.
1110BC(5) - Just moving.
1075BC(6) - Carthage built Hoplite, start worker.
1050BC(7) - Carthage built Worker, start Hoplite.
1025BC(8) - Barbs settled at North, killed their Horse with warrior.
1000BC(9) - Researched Literature, started on Math. at max. Hippo built Temple, started on barracks.
1075BC(6) - Carthage built Hoplite, start worker.
975BC(10) - Killed barb horse. Need to rest with our two warriors before pillaging barb village.

We need aqueduck in Utica before we will start there a Great Library. This is why I research Math. at max. Also we can try to trade math. for Map Making or something else. But we should keep the Literature with us.
I also made a wall with our Hoplites at the south so Rome can not pass through it and settle near us. Also this is a point to collect units before war for Iron. unfortunately one Rome warrior went through it when it was not so large, bu I think it will not be a big trouble for us. Just keep eyes on him.
Our capital should continue to produce Hplites and workers.

@Matternich
I proposed to place cities in mountains area because they can contain resources (Iron, Coal, Saltpeter).

Matternich

Oct 10, 2004, 03:39 PM

Well done Sir_ortin. Good that we are pumping out workers to improve those tiles and start building roads to colonize those resources. Rome should mve onto Glib next maybe.

Appreciate the idea about resources though under current conditions- i.e. small island easy to 'grab' and hold onto resources outside of ciy limits with colonies- its not an issue. Dont want to keep harping on about city placement though. Lets make the best of what we have.

The early wall of Hoplites is great but probably better to make use of the mountains to fortify them becuase of the defenssive bonus. Rome has a couple of settlers just itching to move into our territory. They are just going to have to wait until they have ships but by then I hope we will have more 'blocking' troops.

With a few more defensive troops, Rome will find it very hard to breach our defensives even with their Legionaries. Perhaps we should wait until either they declare war on us or until we have Knights before going to war.

Whose go is it?

Sir_Ortin

Oct 11, 2004, 12:58 AM

Right now it is AlexTop's turn, next turn is your, Matternich.

Grayarea

Oct 11, 2004, 05:20 AM

Roster;

1 KA
2 Gray
3 Sir Ortin - Just played
4 Alex top - Playing next
5 Matternich - Get ready

Question,

Why do we kill the barbs when we can farm them to get elite units?

Is there any good info on pre-building? I am a bit vague on the best practise for this sort of thing.

Can we not disband a city when we take a big Roman city (capital) and move to a better position that way?

King Alexander

Oct 11, 2004, 05:32 AM

I don't think that we need more workers; we have 1 worker per city, and is more than enough, since we're industrious, so Carthage should build a library right away OR start the GL immediately there.

1 worker from the 2 that are near Utica, should go and start improving the land of Carthage; also, mine those irrigated grasslands as we don't need it anymore and the cattles give 2 shields when mined(like a BG).

Be carefull to improve the land which our citizens work(Leptis Magna).

Cut those forests near Carthage, Utica and Hippo; maybe there are more BG's above them(not the forests with the spices).

Utica should finish Colossus, unless we want to trade for Map Making to build the Great Lighthouse(though Ceasar wants almost all our gold if we don't trade Lit); if we built the Great Library, we'll need the Great Lighthouse to find contacts(until now, it seems that we're going to need the later).

We need 2 more units to block the road path for Rome to settle more cities:
- we could send 1 warrior from Leptis Magna and we have 1 more Hoplite on his way to the area.
- Try to "play" with the settler pairs; when they're 2 tiles away, "open" a road path with 1 of our units, and then when the Roman settlers come back to pass, move our unit to block it's path again. We're going to save some time if we're lucky, before they send galleys to settle in our area.
1-2 cities could build cheap units(warriors) to claim all the available settling-tiles in our area asap, before Rome send it's galleys.

Just some thoughts.

@Grayarea; we could farm Elite units, but only Holpites(and maybe archers?) could profit this, as in the next Age we'll use them as pikemen. Right now, though, we need to block all the settling-tiles; maybe we can leave the barb camp untouched and block the other tiles normally - then we'd have to "replace our Elite hoplites with veterans.

On pre-building; one can estimate how many turns he needs to get a tech with a Wonder, and pre-build the palace/colosseum/cathedral to be built 1 turn after he discovers the tech and/or to buy the tech from someone else if the pre-build is going to be completed sooner(you have to check a lot the Diplo screen).

By taking a big Roman city and disbanding a city from ours, it's not worthing at all: we LOSE ALL the culture the Roman city produced until then and Wonders won't add to our culture. Anyway, that city will have very few improvements, since most they'd be destroyed in a war, so it's not worthing it.

Matternich

Oct 11, 2004, 11:25 AM

@ KA Sounds good strat- I like the idea of wasting the Roman settlers time. Never tried that before.
As for workers don't forget they are needed to build roads and become colonies on resource tiles- i.e. ivory. Also they can alway be added to slow growing cities if no longer needed.

King Alexander

Oct 11, 2004, 03:32 PM

We need to occupy all the tiles near the ivory with units; Rome couldn't "steal" our second luxury(ivory) by settling there, and we'd have 2 more ivories to trade with other civs, so the cost to maintain those units will pay back.

We could allow Carthage to build 1 more worker, and with the help of 1 of the 2 workers in Utica, start improving Carthage's terrain asap and mining all the irrigated cattles/grass.

1 other city could build a worker so we make the ivory colony.

Alex Top

Oct 11, 2004, 03:59 PM

975Bc - ok
950bc - ok
925bc - Ceasar ask Literature. I sad NO. He sad WAR.
Viking city of Nidaros has completed Colossus.
Carthage build library. Utica build GLib.

Now i want to speak with team about war.
Plan A.
I think we must send 2or 3 hoplite to the iron to pillage the road. I think that Ceasar is not ready for war. May be he building legions now. But other units stay near the border.
Plan B.
All units near the border go together to Rome.

King Alexander

Oct 11, 2004, 04:11 PM

I'd want to hear everyone's opinion about war.

I think that Hopites at 2-3-1 are expensive to waste them to offence; archers have the same offence, they're cheaper but we don't have any(?).

EDIT:
@Alex Top: Sorry, I read it quickly and didn't realized how things are. Can you post a save to estimate the situation? Just upload it in the server at the bottom of the page and paste the link.

It seems that we cannot avoid our GA as things are, but that is not that bad, actually as it may help us.
Legions are 3-3-1 and only the hoplites stand a chance against them.

I'd make this war to last long if possible( if things are going well):
- Our top priority is to pillage the iron hill near Rome ASAP; don't forget that if we fortify some hoplites in the iron hill, it'd be very difficult for Ceasar to defeat them, especially if he attacks across the river.
- do not attack with our hoplites; wait fortified to get attacked, preferably in a hill; once the iron is pillaged, Ceasar will have only archers/warriors to throw, no big deal for Hoplites.
- I'd continue to build hoplites and send them in pairs and I'd try to pillage every terrain improvement inside Rome's territory.
- When everything is pillaged and the Roman cities are starving to death, I'd build a lot of archers and with the help of the hoplites, TRY to take Rome cities at once: If this plan works, we could build our Forbidden Palace probably in Theveste, exterminate Rome once and for all, and maybe we'll get a Great Leader if the RNG Gods are nice to us :D

btw: don't forget that we can make a false peace treaty, take all the techs/gold Ceasar has, and attack again to finish him off. We don't know any other civs, so, our reputation will remain PURE :cool:

Just some thoughts.

P.S.: I'd suspected that Ceasar would declare sooner or later by demanding something :mad:

Matternich

Oct 12, 2004, 05:12 AM

Rome might not appear ready for war but their UU- Legionaries are excellent defenders.

Edit- Hehe I did the same thing too KA.
Didnt read that Rome had declared war.

Well it's bad for us. In these early stages we should give Rome what it wants to leaves us alone. Too late now though.

I agree with KA- dont go on offensive except to pillage. Try not to send to many pillagers if it will leave us poorly defended.
I think Rome will be harder to finish off than you make it sound though but the premise is sound. Try not to break treaties unless you have to, because if and when Rome knows other civs, even if we don't, the bad reputation still spreads.

Alex Top

Oct 12, 2004, 01:25 PM

Hi.
This is save and picture with my strategy. I hope that Ceasar will lose a lot of Legions in the battles for iron. Then we can attack him but not before.

Also i think that Ceasar can change the production of Piramids. Utica will change GLib to Piramids. If you are think that GL is better than explain me.

I will play tomorow evening. I'd like to read the opinion of all players.

King Alexander

Oct 12, 2004, 03:21 PM

This is what I'd do:

- The Roman warrior will make he's move when you'll hit "enter"; if he stays fortified and don't attacks, take him out with the Hoplite.

- change Garthage to Hoplite, and keep pumping Hoplites only. btw: I don't understand why we're roading the forest and not choping it to find more BG's. Forests have slow growth rate when worked. Also, I'd mine the cow to give us 1 more shield.

- I'd change Theveste to build archers only. Hippo can build it's barracks and then archers also, and make sure to work the BG's when mined(to change from non-BG tiles, that is).

- I'd use archers to attack only, and Hoplites to pillage and stay fortified when enemies approaching.

- I'd split the unit-wall to 2 groups; first group would be(from west to east) 1 warrior and 3 Hoplites and go to pillage the iron asap. Second group would be the eastern-most Hoplite/warrior to pillage Antium and stay fortified in one hill to make sure that we block units from there, or, if the first group fails to pillage the iron, go and pillage it.

- Utica should keep with the GL, as it's more important than the Pyramids.

Good luck.

Grayarea

Oct 12, 2004, 04:23 PM

The wisdom I can give is of a very very limited nature ;)

I hope it works out OK Alex, and I am glad it happened on your turn and not mine!

Whatever you do, know that you are doing a better job than I would have :goodjob:

Sir_Ortin

Oct 13, 2004, 01:28 AM

@AlexTop:
Pyramids give 2 things: 1. Granary in every city on the continent. 2. Culture. When you have small amount of cities, it's usually more cheaper to build a granary in each city. As to the culture, GL will produce more culture per turn. If we will build GL, we could switch-off research for a while, but first we need some contacts.

Sir_Ortin

Oct 13, 2004, 01:39 AM

My opinion is next:
Since our defense is better then offence - we need to make a defensive war. What I mean, we should win battles while we are defending. We should avoid to attack anyone who have def.value more then 1 not in forest/jungle/hill/mountain/river. Attack only on open place to units like warriors/archers, but no swordsmen/spearman. And pillage, pillage, pillage.
I'm sure that after not long time Rome will ask for peace, and this is a place where we could take Mapmaking. :)

King Alexander

Oct 13, 2004, 06:22 AM

I'd also like to add to what Sir_Ortin said that:

1) false peace treaty is something to BEAR in mind, and we definetly should do it, if things go well. Let Ceasar to enjoy his last minutes on this world by taking his techs and gold, and then... you know... :devil2:

2) If all goes well, this may be our only chance in this game to build a Forbidden Palace and if we're lucky Military Academ/Heroic Epic with a Great Leader(the last 2 also give culture).
So, if all goes well, we should strike simultaneously the Roman cities, assign FP in Theveste, form an Army and attack with it, if we get a GL.

Just check when we can build a FP when we take Roman cities, and don't forget to abandon them before you press "enter" at the end of the turn.

Alex Top

Oct 13, 2004, 03:26 PM

1. 975Bc - ok
2. 950bc - ok
3. 925bc - Ceasar ask Literature. I sad NO. He sad WAR.
Viking city of Nidaros has completed Colossus.
Carthage build library. Utica build GLib
4. 900bc - you now.
5. 875bc - ok
6. 850bc - Our warrior kill roman archer near Antium. Leptis Magna Built Temple - barracks.
7. 825bc - Roman warrior and settler came from Pisae. Theveste Spartan Hoplite - Spartan Hoplite. Our Hoplite killed warrior and took settler. Now ellite. Began golden age.
8. 800bc - Mathematics - Map Making. Hippo barracks-Spartan Hoplite.
9. 775bc - Our warrior killed archer near Pisae. Cartage built library - catapult. Ellite hoplite killed archer. Ceasar have no iron now.
10. 750bc - Roman archer landed near Theveste.

Roman archers are regular. Galley - veteran. Legionary - veteran.
Good luck for Matternich.

Matternich

Oct 13, 2004, 03:37 PM

Good turn ATop.
I'll play mine ASAP.

KA- :( You cant build a Forbidden palace with only 5 cities.

I am not sure if you can build/capture 8 cities and trigger the FP and then abandon those cities but probably not as I think it takes a turn to trigger and as we are not allowed to finish a turn with more than 5 cities that's out.

King Alexander

Oct 13, 2004, 04:54 PM

@Matternich: you can build a forbidden palace if you have more than our 5 cities; just *select* to build FP from the city screen when it's availabe, assuming we own more than 5 cities(I don't know how many are required for this map), and simply abandon the captured ones before you hit "enter".

That's why I insisted on attack simultaneously the Roman cities, when we're almost sure that we can take most of them at once; I've done this in another 5CC game.

P.S.:Alex Top, it's good to know that you've pillaged the iron :goodjob: .

Beware that Ceasar will get some legions, if he was building them already.

Grayarea

Oct 14, 2004, 04:11 AM

Good work Alex_top :)

Grayarea

Oct 14, 2004, 04:12 AM

1 KA - Get ready
2 Gray
3 Sir Ortin
4 Alex top - Just played
5 Matternich - Playing next

Matternich

Oct 14, 2004, 02:08 PM

(still playing)
KA-
I'm amazed that FP can be built. As I say I thought it was triggered a turn after having 8 cities and not upon having settled or capturing 8. What you're saying is we can, on one turn, simultaneously capture 3 more cities, immediately trigger the FP, queue it and then go back to 5 cities before ending the turn?
Will this only work with captured cities? Otherwise we could do the same with settlers.

If we're going for a cultural victory (now becoming more and more unlikely) FP would be good but at the moment will cost allot of shields.

FP would however be great if resettling a city on prime Roman land which as I have stated earlier would mean building up that as a new city. Not so bad at the moment but by the time we ever remove Rome it may not be worth swapping.

Matternich

Oct 14, 2004, 08:02 PM

0- 750 BC
Noticed Carthage is building a Catapult- not needed. I took the liberty of changing it to granary. In cities which can grow above 6, granaries should generally be built before libraries, and before temples in capitals. Granaries help us grow faster. I know we are at war but it will be a long war and in the long run troops will be made faster with gran. Also a worker is chopping a forest which will be wasted on the 2 turn Hoplite.
Utica will finish GL in 15 turns but a bit of micromanagment and that's now 14.
Check how the tiles are being worked in cities just in case. After all there's only 5 to worry about so its never going to be a major micro-management job.

1- 730 BC
Our Warrior makes ELITE succesfully fighting off a Roman archer near Theveste. Our other warrior defending the road to Leptis M. defeats another archer but is now faced with two more.
'The Greek city of Athens has just built the Oracle.' - I hope this doesn't mean that other civs switch to build GLib, competing with us.

Same Warrior kills archer which is protecting Roman settler- 2 free workers. Our Hoplite kills the other archer. Some strategic troop movements.
Hoplite close to Rome stays fortified.
If Rome is hoping to build Pyramids it can forget it. Another civ is bound to get it.

Move lux slider down to zero as we are losing gold on map making and the garrisons/temples in the cities prevent disorder.

3- 710 BC
Move another warrior from Leptis M. Our warrior dies. Another Hoplite is built and move towards Rome. Move another warrior from Leptis M. into affray.
Hoplite kills a spearman in Pisae and another takes out Roman warrior. Other Hoplite take out archer and makes ELITE.
Bring down tech slider with MMaking still 2 turns to go.

4- 690 BC
Carthage- granary, back onto Hoplites.
Warrior kills Roman archer.

Checked in on Rome (seeing as we have an 8/1 kill ratio) and Ceasar offers Wheel, Philos, MapM, CoLaws and mysticism in exchange for peace treaty, Mathematics, Literature and 248 g. Or either Mysticism or Wheel for just peace.
It's tempting. War is slowing growth but there are benefits especially with Glib which will mean we don't have to trade tech with Rome till Ed. by which time other civs should be around. Besides we need that iron for our future protection during MAges.

5- 670 BC
Change Leptis Magna to Granary same reason as above. Researching Construction (12turns). Worker becomes colony- Ivory.
Change queue in Hippo to G. Lighthouse (28 turns). It makes sense to use the shields from the G.Age

6- 650 BC
The lone Roman warrior hiding in the mountians near Theveste is dead at last. Hoplite kills spearman in Antium.

7- 630 BC
Hoplite kills spearman in Antium.

8- 610 BC
Leptis finishes granary, onto Harbour. 3 Roman archers fall on road to Leptis. Our Warrior dies trying to take Antium. Hoplite suceeds and razes it for 19 gold. That's quite a few kills for that Hoplite it might make a leader soon. Rome will now give us 3 tech and 50 gold for peace. OR 333 G. & Wheel or Myst.
Now Antium is no more, colonies can be built on that wool there.

9- 590 BC
Add a Roman worker to Leptis M.
Theveste (on 6 pop) is now temporararily building granary instead of hoplites.

10- 570 BC- Final turn.
Warrior destroys Roman city of Pisea (with galley) for 20 g. and worker. That worker is heading to the wool.
Rome will now give us all its 4 tech and 267 G out of a possible 333 g. Or 333 g and 3 tech.
They will pay for peace well- but I'm not selling.
Great Lib finishes in 5 turns just before aqueducts appear with construction. Glight in 23.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_BC0570_01.SAV

Conclusions/Suggestions

Annoyed I didn't make a Great leader but hey- the next player can have that glory.
(If you do before pyramids- hurry it)

We are doing well in war with 14 or more kills, 2 razed cities and only 2 lost warriors.
We can trade for peace anytime.
Use lake bottle-neck to our advantage.
Wouldnt raze Rome capital until there are 6-8 Hoplites even though 3-5 might do it, better to be safe.
Slowly grind them down city by slow city. No need to pump out a million Hoplites at once but always have at least 1 city building them. Let the other cities alternate by building- libraries, aqueducts, harbours etc. Leptis might be able to manage Gwall after harbour.

NB. We are on 0 lux slider but when cities move up to 8 pop they will be in disorder unless wool is colonized or lux pushed up.

I'm done. Write up a bit long but I am used to waffling on :)

King Alexander

Oct 15, 2004, 02:02 AM

Good job Matternich :goodjob:

Will this only work with captured cities? Otherwise we could do the same with settlers.

I don't know if it works only with captured cities, but you have a very interesting idea here ;)

I can't look at the save atm, but:
this is my "got it".

King Alexander

Oct 15, 2004, 05:56 AM

I'll keep producing hoplites from Carthage, try to pillage the Roman cities and/or have an Hoplite nearby each of them so they cannot develop their land with workers(of course, more hoplites will keep an eye on Rome itself).

I'm not sure that I can finish off Rome inside my turns as there're no roads to move quickly, but we'll finish Ceasar sooner or later, once and for all.

When we "control" all the Roman cities, it's good to try to take them simultaneously, perhaps to trigger the FP.

@:Hippo is building the GLhouse; keep with it as it's crucial if we get the Great Library in 5 turns; if don't get the later, I'll switch to the GLhouse asap.
If we get the Great Library but not the GLhouse, switch Hippo to the Great Wall(palace) to get another Wonder, maybe even Sun Tzu's/Sistine if we keep it for long time, and with size 6 without aqueduct, we can keep it enough.

Note: I'd strongly recommend that before our FINAL destruction of Rome, to take all the gold/techs he has, because it might be some time before we meet other civs(?), so the Great Library will not give us anything until then.
Of course, we'll see how things are going until then.

btw: Carthage is a 2-turn Hoplite factory atm(Golden Age), and not a 3-turn factory; there are BG's that they're not worked(1 of them near the river= more gold), so there is no need to work that irrigated grassland across the river.

What do you think?

Grayarea

Oct 15, 2004, 03:35 PM

1 KA - playing next
2 Gray - Skip
3 Sir Ortin - Get ready
4 Alex top
5 Matternich - Just played

I am away this weekend, so if KA playes before Monday you should skip me as the earliest I could play will be Tuesday night.

Good luck all, Matternich nice moves :)

Matternich

Oct 16, 2004, 05:00 AM

KA- if you can build a galley or two to search for civs.

King Alexander

Oct 16, 2004, 05:57 AM

I'll play probably today, and try to build 1-2 galleys as Matternich said.

King Alexander

Oct 16, 2004, 08:34 AM

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_BC0370_01.SAV

IBT
2-3 archers and a warrior went inside Rome

550BC (1)
Pillage a tile in Rome, and move Hoplites forward.

IBT
Rome completed the Pyramids.

530BC (2)
I kill 2 archers, both Hoplites lose 1hp.

510BC (3)
I kill another archer, Hoplite drops to 3hp.

490BC (4)
We can now lower the science to 60%, Construction in 2, lux at 10%, -4gpt, 418g.

Rome has dropped to size 3 from 7, due to pillaging.

470BC (5)
Good news: We complete the Great Library in Utica. Utica starts a granary as a pre-build for aqueduct, Construction next turn.

Cumae drops to size 2.

450BC (6)
More pillaging and Hoplites produced.

I choose Currency as the next tech.

430BC (7)
Leptis Magna: harbor >> galley.

410BC (8)
1 Roman archer attacks our Hoplite across the river, dies, and Hoplite becomes Elite.
2 Roman archers attack another Hoplite across the river, 1 dies, the other kills the Hoplite.

I finish off the Roman archer with our Elite warrior, wins flawlessly, but we get no GL – of course, I protect our warrior immediately by moving a Hoplite to the warrior’s tile.

I colonize 2 wools that are protected by Hoplites: now, we still need lux at 10% so Carthage won’t riot, but it can grow further witout worrying much.

390BC (9)
We lose an Hoplite by 2 archer attack, I attack the last archer with Elite warrior, wins and drops to 4hp, but still no Great Leader.

Our Golden Age comes to an end.

370BC (10)
Nothing.

Summary
1) I have enough Hoplites fortified across Rome and the river, as well as the bottleneck lake: leave them there, because the block everything Rome throws at us, and Ceasar loses many archers attacking our Hoplites across the river; those 2 Hoplites that we lost had 3hp, that’s why we lost them, after 2-3 archer attack.

2) I have 2 Hoplites, each fortified outside Cumae and Neapolis: we control the area there and Ceasar cannot work the land, so, these cities, are useless for him as I’ve pillaged them totally(the same with Rome).
1 Hoplite is pillaging Veii’s wool’s/tiles, so the city can quickly become useless, and when the Hoplite is done with pillaging, fortify him there.
Do the same with the other 2 Roman cities, and we totally control Roman cities.

3) Ceasar will give us The Wheel, Mysticism, Philosophy, Code of Laws and 280g(of his 313g) for Peace Treaty. He hasn’t met anyone else yet, maybe because no one else has the GLhouse yet.

4) Once we soon control the Roman land, start producing more archers(I have Theveste on archers atm, after it produced 3 Hoplites), and bring them outside the Roman cities for the final attack/elimination of Rome.
Before the attack, make a false peace treaty, and take all the techs/gold Ceasar has and brake the treaty by attacking – Anyway, we need to exterminate Rome, and maybe block the area with warriors, so no one else can settle to our island and threaten us(although, for the later, we’d need to support many troops, but we’d have all the wool luxuries to trade, not to mention the iron that we need, and the jungle that could have rubber/coal – I want us to discuss this).

5) Let Leptis Magna to pump galleys.

6) I was tempted to shut down the research when we got the GL, but we don't know any other civ yet.
I chose Currency to build markets(more income and happyness), and because Ceasar has the other techs we miss, but we can discuss our tech path.

Matternich

Oct 16, 2004, 12:20 PM

well done KA sounds like we are doing well.

Grayarea

Oct 17, 2004, 01:27 PM

1 KA - Just played
2 Gray - Skip
3 Sir Ortin - Playing next
4 Alex top - Get ready
5 Matternich

BTW I am still away, just managed to get on the net :)

Nice moves KA

Sir_Ortin

Oct 18, 2004, 03:38 AM

Well done, guys. By graph, we are leaders at this moment. :)

I got the game, will play tonight, post result tomorrow morning.
Also, I can not load a save and check everything right now, but according to the log, we are going very good.

King Alexander

Oct 18, 2004, 03:41 AM

Sir_Ortin, please wait, because we need to re-discuss our strategy a bit.

Here's why:
I had built the FP in one 5CC epic game after capturing 3 enemy-cities at once and I had told it so, but there were doubts.

I wanted to see if it worked with settling 3 additional cities, so that I could trigger the FP and abandon the new cities before the end-turn, and it worked in another epic game, and, I've built the FP and completed it without any problems :)
btw: you can try it both ways in your epic games.

So, that changes our plans a bit. We no longer have to wait to capture the Roman cities simultaneously(assuming no one has "altered" the FP in this SGOTM?), so we can finish Ceacar asap.

There's another thing I want us to discuss: coming soon.

EDIT:
Is it worthy to keep Rome instead of Leptis Magna?
We've already built a temple/granary/harbor in Leptis Magna, but Rome's terrain is far better, though it'd need a courthouse/temple to be a good city(with a FP it'd be a strong city).
Of course, Rome can't built a harbor.

This is what I were thinking; assuming we get Rome a courthouse, temple and FP, it'd be a top city. We could build the FP in Rome after it has a court/temple, by additional settling 3 more cities-abandon them at the end-turn.
Another thing is that Rome is by a river and it doesn't need an aqueduct.
As I've said, Rome can't have a harbor, but we already have 2 coastal cities and we only need to defend ourselves later.

I'm NOT proposing all this because Rome completed the Pyramids, but because it's terrain is TOP(3-4 BG, cattle, river, iron hill) and Leptis Magna is never going to reach size 12 and has slow growth.

I'd like your opinion as I know that it's not the best thing to re-settle.

Sir_Ortin

Oct 18, 2004, 07:31 AM

I also like the idea of taking Rome, especially if we could produce GreatLeader for FP.

I think that we should try to capture enemy cities at once, as it will be cheaper then building 3 settlers and then disbanding them. And we should keep fighting with Rome for GreatLeader.

King Alexander

Oct 18, 2004, 09:35 AM

If we get a GL, we could hurry the FP in Rome then, otherwise, we'd need to build/rush a court/temple in Rome before we built the FP and we'd also need to settle/abandon 3 cities.
Let's hope that the RNG is nice to us.

Matternich

Oct 18, 2004, 11:25 AM

Lets keep part of Rome alive so we can 'farm' Great leaders.
At least 1 anyway for the FP.

I agree with SOrtin best to conserve resources by using Roman cities to trigger the FP.
Is Leptis the best city to ditch though? What about Theveste.
Theveste might look good but it has limited growth. As I have said before if you count the food on the tiles around it, it won't grow above 10 pop until Democracy.
Because Port of Entry gives sea shields earlier it makes Leptis a better long term city to keep hold of and if Rome is going to have FP this may reduce its corruption.

Once we have decided which city to abandon- make settlers/workers with that city. Hurry them if necessary as to squeeze as much from them as possible. Also sell all the buildings even though its not a great gold yeild.

But without a great leader I wouldnt bother with Rome.

King Alexander

Oct 19, 2004, 07:31 AM

@Matternich: I'd say, if we get a GL so we could hurry the FP in Rome, we could abandon both Leptis and Theveste, and settle another coastal city east of Rome, where 2 hoplitea are fortified in the grassland between the 2 wools;
it'd be a powerhouse city with 3 BG's visible, 2 wools that aren't developed yet but give(food:2, shields:2, gold:2), and 2 forests/2 jungles tiles that will probably have more BG's above them, 6 coastal squares to work, 2 fresh water lake tiles(food 2) and there're also 2 hills.

Of course, as you said, we should make a lot of workers/settlers from the city(s) that we want to abandon and sell all the buildings before we abandon them.

We should concentrate our forces to take Rome-Cumae-Neapolis: Neapolis we'll soon grow in population(it has the fish), so it won't autoraze when we capture it.

We have 3 Elite Hopltes and 1 Elite warrior; 2 hoplites are on their way to the front, so they could go and fortify in the place of the Elite Hoplites, and the later would be free to attack archers to get a GL.

Just a few thoughts(I don't have 2 cents!!!).

Matternich

Oct 19, 2004, 07:14 PM

I like that idea KA though disagree with city placement.
Check out the picture.
The big green cross is, I think, a good location.
Mainly because it doesn't 'steal' as many tiles from Rome.
Settling SW one tile from both of these locations could prove even better when the cities start to approach the 20 pop mark.

SW of the purple cross on the wool tile looks great as there's so much river too giving all those gold bonuses. Not too much desert either and though we lose benefits of working the 1 wool it is made up for by the extra gold.

It's not at all a bad suggestion mainly because Rome has the Pyramids which is an automatic granary in any new city.
Also it could mean more spare workers to add to the new cities for purposes of hurrying at least one or two buildings before monarchy.

Graybeard said he would be back today.
@Sir Ortin - I think GB was expecting you to have played. Doesnt matter but we should push on as we are seriously lagging behind the rest of the teams.

King Alexander

Oct 19, 2004, 07:47 PM

@Matternich: I haven't understood well - I was reffering to the grassland tile between the 2 wools that we already have colonized and is protected by 2 Hoplites at the same tile, so I can't see how that city "steals" any tiles from Rome, has excellent land to work, it would be between the capital and the FP( = less corruption), and can also have a harbor(maybe we'll need it even with only 5 cities, who knows?).

Why should we go for Monarchy?

Sir_Ortin

Oct 20, 2004, 01:17 AM

370BC (0) All seems to be ok.

350BC (1) Leptis Magna built Galley, start another. Carthage built Hoplite, start another. IBT: Two Roman archers attacked our Hoplites, both died. We had no promotions.

330BC (2) Just moving.

310BC (3) Theveste built Archer, start another.

290BC (4) Carthage built Hoplite, start another. Utica completed Aqueduct, start on Library.

270BC (5) Just moving.

250BC (6) Theveste built Archer, start another. Leptis Magna built Galley, start another. IBT: Two Roman Archers attacked our Hoplite, promote him to Elite (3 damage).

230BC (7) Carthage built Hoplite, start another.

210BC (8) Theveste built Archer, start another.

190BC (9) Carthage built Hoplite, start another. A noticed that Rome army (~8 units) departured city Rome. Begin to move our troops towards Rome cities.

170BC (10) Utica built Library, start on Colosseum. Theveste built Archer, start settler. Move our troops near 3 Rome cities.
IBT:Our Galley killed two barb galleys, become elite. Rome army moved away from the city Rome. It is a good chance to attack right now, when Rome army is far away from the capital.

150BC (11) Carthage built Hoplite, start Colosseum. Our Galley found a lonely mountain rising from the ocean... Rushed in Theveste Settler, because we can ruin some Rome city during attack. Move our troops to Rome cities.
IBT: Rome army is returning back, but it is too late, Rome is a weak-defended city.

Right now all is ready for simultaneous attack of Rome cities. I have finished moving of our troops to their walls, so next player can start fighting right next turn. We have 2 elite units, 2 near Cumae, 2 near Nealpolis. We should keep them for 100% won battle, so attack first with veteran until defenders have 1-2 hp.
Will research Currency in 1 turn. Will built GreatLighthouse in 3 turns.

Also, you could notice that i played 11 turns, this is done because our turns were 109, 99, 89 and it was a little hard to compare our score with the majority of others teams.

Latest save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_BC0150_01.SAV

King Alexander

Oct 20, 2004, 05:38 AM

I think that we should keep pumping Hoplites/archers from Carthage/Utica until the war is over because:
a) we're still in war
b)we also need to "occupy" enough tiles, especially close to our 3 core cities so no one can settle there(tundra/ivory - east of Utica, ect...); more units won't hurt us and it's good to have a strong military to avoid wars/demands.

We should build workers/settlers not only from Theveste but also from Leptis so we can join them in the new cities OR IF we don't get 3 Roman cities at once, we could settle the cities we need to have the FP option.

Attack with archers first, then Hoplites and then Elites(or if there's only 1 wounded Roman unit left in a city, with Elites).

Keep an eye on those Roman stucks: they could break the Hoplite wall with so many archers and go towards Leptis(some of them).
Anyway, I'd built more units for many reasons: we could have our cities later on building improvements/Wonders if we have a strong military, and keep focusing on pre-builds for Wonders later on.

If we get the GLhouse, let Hippo to build aqueduct asap. If the war is going ok and we don't have many loses, build markets for happyness/income.

We can make the false peace treaty now, so we don't bother to reasearch techs that Ceasar has (see where the horses are, etc..). When we get into the Middle Ages, we should start palace pre-builds to get Wonders.

Alex Top

Oct 20, 2004, 04:22 PM

Seasar can give us for the peace:
1) 24g, wheel, philosophy, mysticism, Cumae, Neapolis, Pompii .
2) all gold, all technologies & Pompii.
I think We can agree for 2). And disband Pompii. So we have 1 turn for build settlers/workers in Theveste and Leptis (hurry production).
Roman army can't reach any city in 1 turn.
Then we'll break peace, capture Rome, Neapolis and Cumae.
Begin to build FP in Rome.
Disband Neapolis, Cumae and Theveste or Leptis.
Move settlers to build new city (I think that best place for it - see the picture. red cross. So we take more river squares. But we know nothing about horses now, may be will correct place later)
And our gloryous army move to finish puny Rome cities.

We can take any city (more strong then Pompii) for the peace, but then we can't take all technologies.

I'd like to hear your opinion about my strategy. If you are think that we don't need peace now, then i will attack and begin to build FP next turn.

Matternich

Oct 20, 2004, 05:23 PM

It can be done in 1 or 2 turns but the city east of Rome will be razed. If we have a settler ready this can be sent to a free tile to settle and trigger FP.
Probably best to leave it 2 turns to move this settler onto the hill North of Theveste so it can build a road there.

OR - take the two cities first then make peace with Rome and take get another city in the peace deal. Highly likely as Rome will be begging for peace and probably give all her spare cities. They all have 1 pop and deemed of little worth to the AI.

Our few archers are the best offence troops and should be use first against Rome Capital. Then Hoplites, then onto the city west.
The city east as I say is too small to capture and it will be razed.
Dont even need to attack it realy except to increase GLeader chance.
Both of these cities have 2 spearmen as do all satellite cities around the capital.
To increase chance of great leader it could be good to attack these cities over 2 turns with the same ELITE hoplite to coincide on the 2nd turn with taking Rome.

I am worried about the stack of archers on the way towards Leptis. If we are abandoning Leptis it doesn't matter but its not good to have Rome marching over us regardless.
2 Hoplites will not hold back these Roman archers but if we move them back in Leptis and move the closest troops the archer and the other Hoplite on the colony and spare troops from the western Roman city would have to race to help out. It should be ok.
The Roman archer stack will take 3-4 turns to reach Leptis by which time will have Rome and trigger the FP.

Peace would then give us all of Romes gold and tech or most of her cities and tech or gold. Whatever it'd be better than before.

If it wernt for the archer stack I would say wait until we have built a few workers ready outside Rome to imporve those tiles immedialty. A stack of 5-10 would be great.

@KA - Seems I misunderstood where you meant to position another city.

The position you pointed out between the colonies isn't bad. But do we need more coastal squares?
In a normal archi. game probably but with 5CC a green tile is better than a blue.
Inland lakes/freshwater are terrible tiles. They cannot be improved at all and are only useful in the earliest parts of city growth.

An extra harbour would be good for churning out naval units but again in 5CC it would be mainly for defence. I think the two north of Carthage will be able to be our 'boat' builders'. Unless we are going for Conquest which is a tough victory option but at this level well within our reach.

After looking at the map again I seriously consider the tile South-West of the purple cross as a good long term city position. FP acts as a second Palace in terms of corruption so it shouldn't be a problem.

Matternich

Oct 20, 2004, 05:28 PM

Just Read your post Alex Top after I posted. (didn't refresh the posts)

I like the idea but peace after taking Rome would give us even more.
And might give us a chance to position hoplites, to destroy the archers when declaring war again.

That spare settler can be added to Rome to speed growth.

Grayarea

Oct 21, 2004, 04:09 AM

1 KA
2 Gray
3 Sir Ortin - Just played
4 Alex top - Playing next
5 Matternich - Get ready

King Alexander

Oct 21, 2004, 04:39 AM

@Matternich: I was thinking to have our 3 core cities building Wonders - pre-builds and the new city to be able to build a few naval units for defence only; the coastal tiles/lake tiles won't be worked any time soon without a hospital, as there is plenty of excellent land to be worked first.

@Alex Top: Ceasar will give ALL his techs/gold right now - DON'T ask him "what do you need for peace treaty" as the player is the one who makes the rules right now. If you DEMAND all the techs/gold, you can have it.
Whatever your strategy is, just haggle every time with the AI.

Alex Top

Oct 22, 2004, 08:14 PM

150 BC (0) Ok.
IBT
Roman archers move to Leptis
Currency - Code of Low
Theveste - settler

130 BC (1)
Attack Rome : Lose 1 archer 2 hoplite, kill 1 Legionary 3 spearman.
Attack Neapolis: lose 2 veteran hoplite. Elite hoplite and warrior distroyed Neapolis, but no GL.
Attack Cumae: Lose 1 veteran hoplite.
Peace treaty for all technologies, all gold Pompeii and Hispalis. Change horseback for currency. There is no horses on our continent. Rome build FP.
Sell all granaries, all in Theveste.
Abandon Hispalis, Cumae, Pompeii, Theveste.
Reserch Republic 15 turns -28g/turn (0.8.2)
IBT
Roman army move south.

110bc (2)
I blocked Roman Army.

IBT
Hippo: GLight - Aqueduct.
Babyonian Nineveh has completed Great Wall.

90bc (3)

70 (4)
Contact India galley (west from us). He has no money. Don't now literature, currency, construction.

ibt
Leptis built settler - settler.

50bc (5)
Contact persian Psargadae (west). Can pay 190g for our leteracy or currency.
Establish embussy Persia: Palace, Colosseum. 7 citizens product 13 per turn. Finishing barracks. Has iron, horses and 2 luxures. Inside 2 workers, 2 settlers, 1 horse, 3 spearman.
Establish embussy India: Palace, barracks, granary, temple. 8 citizens pruduce 12 per turn.Inside catapult, 4 spearman, warrior. Building spearman. Has 1 horse and 1 luxury.

IBT.
Sorry. I lose 1 galley in ocean.

30BC (6)
Trade our wool for furs and 51g with persia.
Declare war on Rome. Tried to Kill army near Rome. No lose. No GL.
Now we have Iron.

10bc (7)
IBT
Persian could give us horses and 20g for literature.
Army destroyed.
Utica colosseum - marketplace.

10AD (8)
Move our forces to Veii.

Contuct Germany. Embussy. Condition like India.
Contuct Vikings.Embussy. Nothing interesting.
Can trade with both polytheism + gold for currency.

IBT
Great library give us polytheism.
Carthage colosseum - marketplace.

30ad (9)
Join settler to Rome

50ad (10)
Lose 1 archer. Kills 2 spearmens.

Settler move with our army to build a city. Befor he make it theveste must hurry produce last settler.
Worker at north move to the ivory (need for trade).
I think we need more workers. Carthage can make it after 5 turns.
Good luck.

Matternich

Oct 23, 2004, 04:22 AM

Great turns Alex Top. Just what we needed.

Matternich

Oct 23, 2004, 09:38 PM

0- 50 AD
Is Hammurabi playing 5CC as well? Babylon only has 5 cities.

1- 70 AD
As luck would have it I take on a Roman archer and spawn a GL- 'HAMILCAR'.
It’s going to hurry FP.
Science slider is way too high. Keep it on 0 for now.
Once we shift governments we can go for tech or wait until Education when Glib expires.

TRADE

India- lit. for 40 g.
Persia- Poly for 151 g. & horses
Germany- Curr. for 126 g.

2- 90 AD
FPalace is now in Rome- onto temple. Hippo finishes aqua. onto library.
Hello it's the Ottomans. Glib gives Monotheism
Veii is razed. Going to leave the other Roman city to see if another GLeader is made.
We could build an army with it.

Another city can be settled but Leptis is still producing workers so, I am going to wait.

3- 110 AD
Picking off loose archers with ELITES. Heading to Ravenna.

4- 130 AD - not much.

5- 150 AD - more of the same. Another ivory colony.

6- 170 AD
Carthage finishes marketplace- onto worker.

7- 190 AD
Rome expands. Add settler to Rome.
Carthage finishes worker onto another worker. Barbarians still spawning. 25 g. when a hop gets there.

8- 210 AD
India has landed a settler on our continent. It will depend where it goes but if it disturbs any of our city placements it will have to be war.
Carthage onto Cathedral.
Ha ha Rome is still building settlers. That’ll be 2 free workers.

9- 230 AD
Abandon Leptis and settle a newly- possibly controversially- positioned Theveste. Hope I made the right decision. It has a little more plains than I would like but has 2 wool tiles both on hills. The good thing is it has a 3 food game tile, is on the coast and has no cross over tiles. It looks like it could be a great city once it has expanded. But that could take awhile :( Don't be deceived by plains, with the right amount of food on other tiles a plain can be pushed to 3 shields with a railroad. Trade Republic from India and begin Revolution. I hope it's good gov choice
Trying to block the Indian Settler.

10- 250 AD last turn.
We are now a Republic. Tech is at +1 researching Theology to gain a head start on Sistine Chapel. Even with Glib its good if we stay ahead of tech as later it could become more difficult with only 5 cities.
Finally kill that spearman and settler. Rome has a few complainers, mainly about 'cruel oppression' 54% from hurrying settlers in despotism. Temple is hurried in Rome.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_AD0250_01.SAV

Conclusions/Suggestions

Deliberately I have left the Roman city of Ravenna still standing. It hasn’t helped gain another GL. Should we put Rome of her misery once and for all?

As predicted Rome is a great city. It’s going to be at 12 pop in no time and building quickly.

Hippo could prebuild a palace in preparation for GW's i.e. Hanging Gardens, Sistine chap.

It going to be impossible to stop settlers landing on our continent but as long as they don't cut into city tiles or threaten to steal lux/resources then best to leave them depending on the situation. If we are going to war however it’s best to do it early so by the time the UN is up we are friends of the world.

Could be good to hurry temple in Theveste as it needs to expand as quickly as possible to catch up.

Selling tech that will speed the AI's chance of researching Education could reduce the usefulness of Glib.

Cities that are at 12 and have full food boxes can produce 2 workers in between buildings. Workers are always needed.

All done.

King Alexander

Oct 24, 2004, 08:06 AM

This is my "got it".

There are so many things that I'd like us to do, that I don't know from which one to start, so, I'll point only a few as there're different priorities in each situation of the game or what the AI does:

1) Our reputation may be ruined a bit, since we contacted the AI's while we broke our peace treaty with Rome, but this was something that was unavoidable since we had decided to do it.

2) We don't have horses from Persia anymore: Persia and India are at war with each other, so maybe 1 horse resourse got pillaged, but due to stupid programming, the rep hit hits us and not the AI.

3) We should not make any more wars for some time/ever with other AI's for many reasons; just remember that it's easier for us to make war with AI cities on our island when we need it, since we'd be fighting in our home ground.

4) I didn't knew that we're Religious(?): the anarchy lasted 1 turn, reading the log. I'd go for Monarchy once is known and we can trade for it cheaper, or wait to learn it from the GL.
We can't support the many troops we need to occupy tiles and we really need to do it, or we can't have a strong army in Republic, but it's better than Despotism for the time being.
We could pay for techs once the GL is obsolete.
Later on, I'd go for Democracy: we could support our army and with banks we could have a really strong army, so we could prevent attacks or make quick wars if needed.

5) I'd shut down the science as there's no point to pay 10% for it: just make a scientist in Rome as it can handle it with 1 cow and 1 wheat.

6) Right now, there's a chance to lose our valuable luxuries to other settling AI cities, so that's our TOP priority: occupy/block the tiles near luxuries.

7) We don't need to have so many workers in our new cities; Utica works a tile not developed and grows in 6(1 more tile to develop), Hippo will need to build a cathedral and we should cut the 3 forests to help it, Carthage has too many food when it could work the mined grass to finish the cathedral in 8 turns and later on to work the mountain for even more shields.

Roman workers should work together and not alone, so they finish their job a lot sooner and they're more than enough to improve Rome and Theveste.

What I want to say is that it's pointless to work tiles that there're not needed for the moment.
We can built workers to join them to our new cities, but right now we need to secure our luxuries and help our core cities, especially Hippo by improving it's land and join some workers in the city(when they've done their job).

8) The cathedral in Carthage can wait for the moment; we need "occupying" units from the city, while Utica should build the cathedral and a courthouse and Hippo should build courthouse/cathedral, before they start on pre-builds.

9) With good timed pre-builds, we can built almost ALL the Great Wonders in this era, maybe all of them if we play it smart.

10) We can finish our war with Rome right now: maybe later on we can make 1 more "trick" war mainly aiming for GL's(not attacking the city itself), but right now the Roman city is good for us because:
a) the other AI's won't settle near the area with the wools and Ravenna can't "steel" our wools even with border expansion
b) we need our troops elsewhere to protect/occupy tiles near our other luxuries.

King Alexander

Oct 24, 2004, 10:47 AM

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_AD0350_01.SAV

Pre-tun:
Establish an embassy with Ottomans. Sogut builds swordsman, 6spt, it has 3 luxuries(dyes, insense, silks).
Improvements: barracks, temple, cathedral and colosseum.
Resourses: 2 Horses and 2 Iron.
The Ottomans are in Despotism.

Make peace treaty with Rome.

IBT
A Persian warrior/settler pair lands near the place of where Leptis was(I hope they're not going for the wools east of Rome), and I see 1 more Persian galley reaching.

260AD (1)
Rome: temple >> barracks.
Hippo: library >> courthouse.
Carthage: hoplite >> hoplite.

Hurry temple in Theveste for 236g.

Make a single scientist in Rome and shut down research, +12gpt.

IBT
It looks like the persian settler/warrior pair is going for the wools, maybe we'll be forced to declare if they take them.

270AD (2)
Trying to block the persian settler/warrior as best as I can: they clearly going for the wools.

IBT
Ottomans and Greece(we haven't met the later yet) sign peace treaty.
Theveste: temple >> harbor.

The persian settler/warrior pair retreats after was blocked efficiently.

280AD (3)
Persia knows Monarchy.
Carthage: hoplite >> hoplite.

290AD (4)
Persia settles Bactra north of Rome: we can live with it for the moment and maybe the city will be fall in our hands from culture at some point. Right now there're plenty of land for Rome to work, and 1 tile less for Rome(after Bactra's expansion won't do anything to us.)

300AD (5)
Carthage: hoplite >> hoplite
Utica: cathedral >> courthouse.

310AD (6)
We see green borders south of Sogut(Ottoman capital); we'll contact Greece in 1-2 turns.

320AD (7)
Carthage: hoplite >> hoplite.

Rome is doing better now, and we can make a useless entertainer to work. Just be careful because our single scientist is in Rome.

330AD (8)
Monarchy is known by some civs now, so next turn, thanks to the GL, we'll learn it.
Utica completes it's courthouse next turn, and is going to begin the Hanging Gardens. I must say that Utica is our most powerful shield-city.

We meet Greece: Alex is ahead with Monarchy. Greece is in Republic.
Establish embassy with Greece for 115g: Athens is size 9, 22spt, is building the Colosseum(just now will begin building it and it's due in 5 turns) and from what I see, Greece must have it's Golden Age, judging from the shields it's tiles give(example: 4 shields a mined hill, etc...).
Greece has 2 horses and iron.

Establish embassy with Keltoi and they're in Despotism: Entremont is size 6, 7spt, has 1 iron and 1 horse and is produce wealth.

We probably have enough money for now, 105g, +29gpt, Theology in 32, 0% science - It doesn't do anything if we raise the slider.

IBT
The GL gives us the Monarchy.

Greece begins the Hanging Gardens in Thermopylae: We can't see the city, but it probably isn't so powerful like Athens, since there must be some corruption - it's not the capital.

340AD (9)
Carthage: hoplite >> hoplite.
Rome: barracks >> library.
Utica: courthouse >> Hanging Gardens. Utica produces 23spt with the courthouse(24spt, -1spt from corruption), and will finish the Hanging Gardens in 14 turns.
Hippo: courthouse >> marketplace.

IBT
Babylon starts the Hanging Gardens.

350AD (10)
Nothing.

Summary

1) Develop Hippos' terrain asap. I have 2 workers that clear a forest; they should mine the grassland tile Hippo works, and then cut the other forest at north.
After that, clear the forest with the spices, because Hippo needs to grow further and at some point to work it's second hill(after it's roaded/mined).
Hippo should built the cathedral after the marketlace.
When the 2 workers in Carthage finish mining the mountain, they should join Hippo(currently at size 8, and I already joined a worker in the city).

2) Let Carthage to produce Hoplites all the time for now. I have secured the most part of the ivory-area, and we should occupy the rest tiles and the tiles north/east of Utica.
After that, we should occupy ALL the tiles that can be settled west of Carthage and on the way towards Rome(hills, graasland, plains, forests), so no one can settle in near the mountain areas.

Maybe we could produce units from Hippo also for a little time(cheap units, like archers, as, unlike Carthage, it needs some time to pump hoplites), so we start occupying more tiles, as it's crucial to control all the mountain area.

3) I have enough units fortified east of Rome to not let anyone to settle by landing from the sea or coming from the land, near the 2 wools.

4) Clear all the jungle east of Rome and where our fortified units near the wools are(in jungle, our units could die if they stay for many turns, although it's not something that I saw very often, as I usually don't fortify units in such terrain for long time).

5) Rome will need a cathedral/marketplace after the library to be more happy, although is in better condition now.
Theveste is building a harbor, in case the area to our core cities is settled by other civs or if someone settles and declare war, so our cities will have the luxuries/resources they need.

That's it for now: later on we'll estimate the situation again.

Matternich

Oct 24, 2004, 11:01 AM

I agree with that KA.
Except I'd let Carthage finish cathedral first maybe hurry it in 1 or 2 turns.
Theveste could do with improvements too.
Not sure about monarchy, would it be more benificial than Republic if we are not fighting wars? I dont know Carthages preferred/hated gov. Could be worth finding out.

I wouldn't bother with a 'strong army.' Not unless conquest is going to be a victory condition. Wars will prevent diplomatic victory.

We are speeding up turns and are doing well on the graph.

King Alexander

Oct 24, 2004, 06:05 PM

Well, I thought about allowing Carthage to build the cathedral, but it's a priority to secure/occupy the area with units, IMHO.
Maybe it's worth it that Hippo helps with the occupation units along with Carthage to finish sooner and concentrate on improvements/Wonders.
Of course, Carthage is not out of the Wonder Race, as it could build another Wonder while Utica builds one.

Unfortunately, with only 5 cities, our palace pre-build can't last for many turns(the shields needed are not many): Utica needs 13-14 turns to build the palace, for example. Still, we can use it smart.

We will see about another Goverment later on: I was afraid that we wouldn't be able to support all the "occupying" units we'll need.

I also don't want to have wars in this type of map, mainly because the strategic resources will be in different locations and we'd need cities and not colonies to grav them; if it were pangea, we could/would go for conquest.

Anyway, wars or not, a strong army is always needed, for various reasons/tactics. For the time being, we only want to occupy our island.
I'd also like us to have at least 3 hoplites/catapults(canons) in all our cities after a while: when a city don't builds an improvement/Wonder, let it help with the city-defend units as well make workers to join in other cities if needed.

Make sure to buy foreing workers if they are available.

Grayarea

Oct 25, 2004, 06:24 AM

1 KA - Just played
2 Gray - Playing next
3 Sir Ortin - Get ready
4 Alex top
5 Matternich

Got it :) will play tomorrow night.

Grayarea

Oct 26, 2004, 05:09 PM

Pre-flight

All citizens appear to be working in best config.

IBT

I assume a barb attacked one of our hoplites, we won but I did not see it.
Carthage Hoplite > Hoplite

360AD (1)

Sending hoplites to block the pass with the sheep in it.

IBT

370AD (2)

ZZZ

IBT

Carthage Hoplite > Hoplite
Ottomans are building the Hanging Gardens

380AD (3)

ZZZ

IBT

I saw lots of greeks pouring into ottomans, war must be comming.

390AD (4)

ZZZ

IBT

Carthage Hoplite > Hoplite

400AD (5)

ZZZ

IBT

Greece declares on the ottomans

410BC (6)

ZZZ

IBT

Carthage Hoplite > Hoplite
Hippo Marketplace > Cathedral

420AD (7)

ZZZ

IBT

Rome Library > Marketplace

430AD (8)

ZZZ

IBT

Barb attacks Hoplite and loses but does not promote.
Carthage Hoplite > Hoplite
Theveste Harbour > Library
Greeks are building the Sistine Chapel
Persians are building the hanging gardens

440AD (9)

Ask Alex for Theo but he is not interested.

IBT

Rome expands

450AD (10)

ZZZ

No trading was possible, except selling to others. Was I correct not to sell on the basis we want Sisine?

Score 439.

Grayarea

Oct 26, 2004, 05:11 PM

1 KA
2 Gray - Just played
3 Sir Ortin - Playing next
4 Alex top - Get ready
5 Matternich

Sir_Ortin

Oct 27, 2004, 12:50 AM

ok. I got the save, will play tonight or tomorrow. It depence from the situation.

King Alexander

Oct 27, 2004, 09:30 AM

Good turns, Grayarea.

A few things the next player should watch for:
1) We don't need to have those 2 fortified Hoplites in the ivory, east of Hippo. The land belong to us and no one can settle there without declaring, so we're safe for the moment.
Take the 2 Hoplites to guard/occupy the nearby tiles, so we save time in occupying the land, and later on, we can "protect" our colonies there.

Don't forget to occupy the tiles east of Utica also.

2) Utica and Carthage will expand their borders in 2 and 3 turns respectively, so we'll save some Hoplites to go and occupy the tiles(that can be settled) towards Rome :)

3) Rome's borders have expand, so the Hoplite and the warrior who're fortified east of the city and inside the borders, are needed elsewhere for occupation.

4) Hippo needs to work the mined grassland and not the hill, so it grows in 8 turns, instead of 16 turns.
The 2 workers that cut the spices forest should be ordered to stop their job at the pre-turn of Sir_Ortin's turns, because the forest is outside Hippo's borders and the shields will not go to Hippo. Make them to work the unroaded grassland tile left in Hippo, and then join them in the city.
The other worker pair should mine Hippo's second hill and then go and help to improve Rome's and Theveste's terrain.

5) I think that we should take out the barb camp with the 2 Hoplites, since they have attack 2, but next player can decide if he wants to do it.

Unfortunately, we don't know Theology yet, so we can't have Utica build the Sistine. Anyway, once Utica builds the Hanging Gardens, start immediately a palace pre-build: other Wonders will soon be available, and we can even built Sistine, because the AI don't manages it's citizens wisely and often make entertainers it it's cities.
If we can't built Sistine, let's go for Sun Tzu's; in any case we should start the pre-build.

I'm a little worried from Greece's and Persia's power, especially for the later, since it's right next to us. Ghandi has been left with only 4 cities(with the capital) and the Ottomans with 5.
We should have good relationships with Persia and not try to challenge them, since they have both horses and iron, which means, knights soon.
Greece and Persia are the dominant powers in our game, as it seems.

Persia has Furs and horses to trade for our Ivory and Wool, and it has harbors, so the trade couldn't be cut off suddenly. Because of our bad reputation with what we did to Ceasar(broke the peace treaty), they won't pay either gold or gpt additionally, but I hope that in the future our reputation will become a little better.

Sir_Ortin

Oct 28, 2004, 12:45 AM

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_AD0550_01.SAV

450AD (0) -
460AD (1) Carthage built Hoplite, start another. Cleared barb village, +25g. Traded Indian Furs for our Wool.
470AD (2) -
480AD (3) Carthage built Hoplite, start another. Utica built Hanging Gardens, start Palace as prebuild.
IBT: Greeks start build Sistine Chapel.
490AD (4) Increased our since rate to 50% so we could use Palace prebuild for Sistine Chapel.
IBT: Indeans proposed us alliance versus Persians. I declained.
500AD (5) Carthage built Hoplite, start Cathedral. Theveste built Library, start Barracks.Traded Persian Horses for our Wool.
IBT: Ottomans proposed us alliance versus Babylonians. I declained.
510AD (6) -
520AD (7) Rome buils marketplace, start Cathedral. Hippo built Cathedral, start Harbour.
IBT: Babylonians proposed us alliance versus Ottomans. I declained.
530AD (8) Theveste built Barracks, start Marketplace.
IBT: Ottomans and Babylons have signed a peace treaty. India landed at te\he west of rome (near fish).
540AD (9) Joined worker to Hippo.
550AD(10) -

Wi will research Theology in 4 turns - do not forget to switch for SistineChapel. Rome and Theveste are growing very well - no need to join them workers. Also, DO NOT JOIN SLAVES, OR MAKE ANY COLONY. They are absolutely free - no support, forever.

Grayarea

Oct 28, 2004, 07:03 AM

1 KA
2 Gray
3 Sir Ortin - Just played
4 Alex top - Playing next
5 Matternich - Get ready

King Alexander

Oct 28, 2004, 11:22 AM

A few things to watch for:

1) The 2 Hoplites that are guarding the ivory east of Hippo should go and occupy the 2 unguarded nearby tiles, so no one can settle there by land or sea.

2) The Wools east of Rome are unprotected by sea/land landing: we need 3 units; 2 on the forests and 1 on the hill to secure them, as before. 3 Hoplites that are fortified east of Bactra, could go there, as no one will settle a city just 2 tiles away from Bactra.

3) We haven't yet secured the tiles that can be settled in-bewteen the mountains: we don't need to build any more units for occupation, as the units in the mountains can go and be fortified in those tiles.
We can also order the archer fortified in the mountain to go 1 tile east(on the other mountain), so we "see" the mountains and barb camps don't appear.

4) India has been left with only 2 cities, and Persia will conquer them soon, so our furs deal should be done with Persia(it has furs). I hope that we don't spoil our reputation more, if India's furs are pillaged before our deal ends.

Matternich

Oct 28, 2004, 05:00 PM

Have checked- the Carthaginians favoured government is- REPUBLIC
shunned gov. is- COMMUNISM.

Might be worth staying in Republic until democracy at least.
After this it might even be worth re-evaluating a return later, back to Republic, once railroads are up- Carths being religious.

King Alexander

Oct 29, 2004, 07:58 AM

I'd say to stay in Republic for good. We're religious and we'll have our railroads soon with a couple more workers, so, it isn't worth it to revolt just for the railroads.
I'd road/railroad every tile in our island, when we've finished improving Rome and Theveste.

I think that it'll be good to also start occupying(after Carthage builts it's cathedral) the tiles south of Rome first(then we'll settle the north tiles, if no one settles them by that time): if someone settles south of Rome it'll leave the city with fewer tiles to control.

We also need to have a few hoplites fortified in our core cities(we're still with warriors: if someone lands 2-3 good-attacking units there, we'll lose the city) and also built many catapults/canons/artileries.

btw: we need to clear the jungle east of Rome(as well as the jungle our warrior is fortified).

Matternich

Oct 30, 2004, 06:02 AM

KA you could be right about the railroads; still it's only a one turn anarchy and there is the task of connecting the cities to each other too.

So it' s Alext Top's turn then.

Alex Top

Oct 30, 2004, 06:01 PM

Hi.
550ad (0)
560ad (1) - trade indian worker +11g for our spices and ivory
570ad (2) -
580ad (3) - Hippo built harbor - colosseum
By indian worker for 25g
590ad (4) - Carthage colosseum - curthouse
IBT - Greece and Ottomans peace treaty
Theology - Feudalism 12turns +3g (5.3.2)
Persians are building Sun Tsu
600ad (5) - Sistine in 14 turns
trade persian furs for ivory
micromanage - +11 per turn
610ad (6) - Theveste marketplace - courthouse
IBT Persia and India - peace treaty.
620ad (7) - Rome built cathedral - palace (prebuild for Sun Tsu)
IBT - Persia demand literature. I gave it for not begin a war.
630ad (8) - Carthage curthouse - swordsman
640ad (9) -
650ad (10) - Hippo colosseum - galley

King Alexander

Oct 31, 2004, 05:52 PM

Hi, I can't have time right now to see the save, but I wanted to say that from what I remember, Rome has enough food(wheat + cow), so we could mine them if the city reached pop12, so we get more shields for our pre-built.

Back on Tuesday.

Matternich

Oct 31, 2004, 06:26 PM

0- 650 AD
The good thing about 5CC is that the turns are shorter.

1-660 AD
Gave codes of Laws to Keltoi for free. Made them turn all polite.
Not sure why we are researching Feudalism on +2 when TGL is still working.
Persia already has Feudalism. Palace builds in 11 turns so safe to assume we will have it by then. Have put slider to 0.

2-670 AD
No surprise TGL gave us Feudalism so research goes to Printing Press. A citizen in Carthage is made a scientist for this. This is a tech the AI will not immediately research at least not before Education.
Carthage builds worker- onto P. Mercenary
Rome switches to Sun Tzu’s finishing in 24 turns.
Hippo- galley onto Pmerc.

Give Indians Monarchy for free. They're not doing too good. It benefits us if the balance of power is equal.
Greece has Engineering.

3- 680 AD

Palace expansion. WLTQ day in Carthage. That's good.
Sun Tzu- 22 turns.
Feudalism to Germs- 20 g. Sistine in 6 turns.

4- 690 AD not much. Galley lost in treach. waters.

5- 700 AD
WLTQ ends in Carth.
Hippo goes onto a 17 turn palace prebuild. It can go for LW with invention. Greece may research this line. If not it will have to build University instead.
Persia has chivalry.
Why is everyone so poor?

6- 710 AD

Wool for horses with Persians for another 20 turns. We should build horses.
Sun Tzu’s in 18 turns.

7- 720 AD

It's odd but I think my kindness to India (normally peace loving) has made them think we are soft. Out of the blue they have declared war on us! It was funny to watch a lone warrior attack Rome only to be cut down by the elite hoplite there. Good really because it sparked WLTQD's in all 3 northern cities. Also we can remove Kolhapur from our continent. But the AI doesn’t look fondly on exterminating civ's- good job they declared on us.

8- 730 AD

The WLTQ has lowered corruption in Utica. Sistine next turn. Theveste finishes Cathedral onto Col.
Tech slider move up +2. Printing Press

9- 740 AD

Utica finishes Sistine onto Harbour. Hmm pop up said Geeks are building Sun Tzu’s. Does this mean they're using the shields from missing Sistine? If so they could beat us to it. Carthage builds horseman.

1o- 750 AD final turn.

The Greeks want gold from us. Normally I'd say ok have it but our army is strong so I say NO! And they back off.
All of our cities are experiencing WLTQD's as Sistine kicks in. Theveste is looking good & now has the highest city shield output with 26 pt.

So I have wiped the Indians out (no losses). Good they deserved it! They must have wanted to be attacked to be put out of their misery. I feel like a euthanasianist.
My final act is to abandon- Kholhapur.

That's my turn finished.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_AD0750_01.SAV

Suggestions/Conclusions

Persia has Chiv, Greece Engineering, why don't they swap so we can have both?
We will eventually as no civ has theology yet and won't have edu for awhile.
Some knights could be good.

My biggest concern is the wonder race. If Greece is researching invention and if we beat them to Sun Tzu’s they will surely beat us to Leonardo's. We might only have both if we finish Sun Tzu’s (14 turns) before they research invention.

Tech slider? Where to put it? Now on +2 for Printing Press (17 turns) but could be lowered later depending how fast other civs are researching.

Why did I Prebuild palace in Hippo? I am sure it's going to be wasted.

NB. Workers can block tiles too. We could still do with some more before steam and there is always work to be done preparing for Hospitals. Cities can build workers in between troops/buildings.

.

Grayarea

Nov 01, 2004, 05:22 AM

1 KA - Playing next
2 Gray - Get ready
3 Sir Ortin
4 Alex top
5 Matternich - Just played

King Alexander

Nov 02, 2004, 04:14 AM

Ok, I just came back. I'll see the save later on.

btw: I'm still tired from the trip and I misclicked in another thread, but as soon as I saw another name(Alamo) above an avatar, I immediately closed it, so I saw nothing.

King Alexander

Nov 03, 2004, 01:43 PM

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_AD0850_01.SAV

Pre-turn: I raise the science to 30%, PP in 12 at -3gpt.

IBT
A Roman settler/spear is coming out of Ravenna.

760AD (1)
Re-position troops.

770AD (2)
Greece knows Printing Press now.

780AD (3)
Nothing.

790AD (4)
I give Theology to the Ottomans for 91g +9gpt, since they'll soon know it(Greece, Babylon and Persian already have it).

800AD (5)
Nothing new.

IBT
Our Furs deal with Persia ends: I give them Ivory for Furs.

810AD (6)
The Roman settler/spear pair, decides to return home, as it can't settle anywhere :lol:

820AD (7)
I "extend" the palace pre-built in Hippo to 12 turns, and I hope that we can make it and build Leo's there. Anyway, the shields can be "re-arranged". Of course, we'd have to follow the tech path to Invention at full speed.

830AD (8)
Nothing.

840AD (9)
PP next turn. Everyone is progressing slowly and that suits us for the Wonder Race(even if we don't win Culturally, it's good to keep the Wonders for ourselves).

IBT
The Germans begin Sun Tzu's.
We lost one galley on the ocean.

850AD (10)
Nothing new.

Summary

1) We can research Engineering in 4 turns at -118gpt(that's where the slider is, but you can change it) and after that go full speed for Invention in less than 7 turns(that's when our palace pre-built in Hippo will end by then: currently at 11 turns, after some more "extending"). We could also starve Hippo for 1-2 turns if needed(make taxmen), so we get Invention first.

I'd say to go full speed to the bottom of the tree, until the GL is made obsolete. When Education comes in, I'd immediately start a palace pre-built for Bach's Cathedral, since it requires a lot of shields, and I'd of course go for Music Theory full speed, switch the palace pre-built to Bach's, then start another palace pre-built elsewhere and full speed for Astronomy(Copernicus Observatory).

Then I'd aim for Economics(Smith's) with a palace pre-built and maybe research/buy Navigation for Magellan's.
Then we need ToG for Newton's University and if possible, build it in the same city that we'd have Copernicus(if the city it's not building something else by then).

Anyway, let's hope that Greece won't learn Invention sooner than 4 turns, since we need 4 turns for Sun Tzu's, and it won't cascade Thermopylae's Sun Tzu's to Leo's.

Since the tech pace is not especially quick, I'd say that we can research at full speed, so we have the time to build our Wonders, without the fear that someone else will claim them.

2) I'd say to have
a) 1 city to built Hoplites until we have 3 Hoplites in all of our cities,
b) 1 city to build catapults to have an equal number as Hoplites in the cities and keep producing them to bombard possible enemies if needed, so we take them out with horses and without any loses,
c) 1 city to built horses.

Of course, Leo's will help big time if we get it, since the upgrades for our Hoplites/horses/catapults will be very expensive. If we're lucky and get Leo's we'll save money for science.

3) I have troops and workers fortified in such way, that no one can settle more cities on our island, so be careful not to take them from where they're.

4) We can begin to road all our island now, and I already begun doing it. Steam Power is WAY far, at the moment, so we can concentrate on roading.
We may need to "extend" a palace pre-built/Wonder, so I'd leave those tiles in Utica only with roads. Sanitation is still far to come, and we can wait.

5) When we have the troops we need, I'd stop producing anymore, so we invest more money on science.

EDIT: Better to send horses down to Rome (I have some fortified in Carthage and Utica), in case the Persian city in our island culture-flips to us, so we can occupy those tiles.

Of course, it's a question of give the city back to the Persians(after we move the regular unit from there) so we won't get possibly attacked or risk it and see what happens?

King Alexander

Nov 05, 2004, 08:30 AM

Grayarea, if you need some time to play, no problem from me: just say so.

Sir_Ortin

Nov 06, 2004, 05:00 AM

Hi everyone.
To Grayarea: Where are you? Will you pick the game or skip this turn?

OK. I'l wait until evening. If nothing hapened, I'll got the game. And Grayarea could play after me.

Sir_Ortin

Nov 06, 2004, 11:23 PM

OK. Grayarea are skipped. I piked the game.

Sir_Ortin

Nov 07, 2004, 01:07 PM

850(0) Change to build in Utica PercianMercenary instead of Hoplite.
IBT: Babylon demand contact with Persia, take empty.

860(1) Utica build PercianMercenary, start another. Theveste build Catapult, start another.

870(2) Carthage built Horseman, start another. Theveste build Catapult, start another.

880(3) Utica build PercianMercenary, start another. Theveste build Catapult, start another.
IBT: Keltoi declared a war on the Vikings.

890(4) Researched Engineering, start Invention at 90% (6 turns). Greek are building Leonardo's Workshop. Trade Persian Education for our Engeneering and 395g. Traded Greece Invention for our Education and 104g. Carthage built Horseman, start University. Utica changed production to University. Rome built Sun Tzu's Art of War, start University. Theveste build Catapult, start University. Changed research to Astronomy at 30% (25 turns, +18g).
IBT: I have lost a Galley in the ocean, sorry guys.

900(5) -
IBT: Lost Horses. Decided not to continue deal, as we are currently are building Universities.

910(6) Persian landed Immortal near Hippo.
IBT: Lost Furs. Persian declared us a war. Persian Immortal killed our Veteran Hoplite in Hippo, itself no damage. :(

920(7) Killed Persian Immortal with our Mercenary. No upgrade. Wiped out Persian city Bactra (2 Spearmans, 1 Galley), lost one our Horseman. No upgrade.

930(8) -

940(9) Changed research rate to 40% (-2g, 17 turns).

950(10) -

Utica should begin Palce prebuild for next high culture wonder (Copernicus's Observatory) as soon as it finished University. We should build all middle-age wonders with high culture in Utica in order to 20k victory. It's not very easy but likely possible. They are: Shaks.Theatre, Mick.Chapell, Cop.Observatory, New.Colledge.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_AD0950_01.SAV

King Alexander

Nov 07, 2004, 03:26 PM

1) We can now trade contacts, but I'd suggest to NOT trade contacts as that would speed the tech research from the other civs or they'd trade techs.
Another reason is that Persia or another civ could gift a tech for a MA against us, and we want good relationships with the other civs, if possible.

2) I see that Thermopylae is building Leo's and from what I remember, it was the city which was building SunTsu's(?). If there was a cascade, I doubt that we can beat them to Leo's, but now it's late to step back. If we don't get Leo's in Hippo, switch it to university.

3) Rome should built colosseum and then courthouse, after the university.

4) Keep building Persian Mercenaries along with some more catapults to bombard Persian units when they land, and then take them out easily. Don't forget that Persia might land some knights now, so we need more catapults in each city.

When we make peace(try it at every turn), trade again for furs and horses.

5) Make sure that the pre-built in Utica for Copernicus won't be made sooner than we research/buy Astronomy: if we need to, make some citizens who work high-shield tiles to work coastal or unmined grassland as was the case with Hippo.

6) I'd go for Music Theory after Astronomy and make a pre-built around 8 turns(if the palace needs 9 turns to be completed for example) before we learn it: unfortunately, with only 5 cities, our palace pre-built doesn't need many shields.

btw: send some occupation units in the tiles that can be settled when we can(the have a warrior in Utica that could leave because Utica has other units).

Alex Top

Nov 07, 2004, 05:34 PM

950ad (0)
960ad (1) - zzz
970ad (2) Utica built Univer - palace(13 turns) Astronomy in 12 turns
980ad (3) Rome built Univer - colosseum
Theveste built Unkiver - Spartan hoplite
Persian are building Copernicus's Observatory
Astronomy in 10 turns -7gpt
990ad (4) Carthage built univer - hoplite
Astronomy in 8 turns -16gpt
1000ad (5) persian landed on the roman territory.
Theveste hoplite - catapult (1per turn)
Persian gave us 25g for peace
Persian know Chivalry and Astronomy. Trade wool and ivory for furs and horses
1010ad (6) Viking and Keltoi peace treaty.
Persian daclared war on Romans. And have destroyed them.
1020ad (7) zzz
1030ad (8) zzz
1040ad (9) Rome colosseum - courthouse
Ottomans and Persian are building Workshop
1050ad (10) -

Persian galleys moves east. Now all nations agree to pay us good money for the contacts. I think it's a good time to trade it and hurry our scince.

King Alexander

Nov 08, 2004, 05:36 AM

I'm not sure if we should trade contacts, as we're "safe" that until Magnetism no one can have contact with the Persians.

The Persians would accept to trade Astronomy + 19g(all their gold) for Printing Press: this way we could start researching Music Theory and begin a palace-prebuild in Rome for Bach's, after the courthouse.

The Persians could also trade Chivalry for PP, but we're going for the Wonders and probably is better to trade for Astronomy.

Next turn we complete Leo's in Hippo, and I hope nothing "bad" happens in the "IBT".

btw: Rome could have 23spt instead of 22, if we work a mined grassland instead of irrigated grassland: of course, we should be careful not to complete the palace pre-built before we learn Music Theory. Hippo could also produce 22spt.

Matternich, what are you saying for our situation: I haven't heard of you.

All the members could post their ideas.
After MT we should go for Economics, and probably trade for missing techs.

Grayarea

Nov 08, 2004, 05:59 AM

1 KA - Get ready
2 Gray
3 Sir Ortin
4 Alex top - Just played
5 Matternich - Playing next

Sorry guys was busy last week.

Sir_Ortin

Nov 08, 2004, 07:57 AM

I think that we should try to build all new wonders in Utica. For this we need to slow down contacts as much as we can.
Also I think it's safe to trade PrintingPress, as we could research MusicTheory and, if we miss Copernicus, change prebuild to Mik.Chapells.

Matternich

Nov 08, 2004, 06:42 PM

0- 1050 AD

We have far too much military for the kind of attacks any enemy could possibly make at this level. It is costing us gold. Touch of paranoia perhaps. I am not going to disband but suggest team discuss possibilty of streamlining military down to essential defence + strategic blocking. Why catapults??

The more civs research faster the quicker a diplomatic/space victory can be achieved. The quicker the finish the higher the score.

Cash is good- it can buy tech/lux.
Lux is good it makes citizens happy. Score is directly related to citizens happiness over a game. Also WE LOVE THE QUEEN DAY's reduce corruption.

Where are all our workers? Come steam we need plenty to lay track in as few turns as possible. WORKERS ARE GOOD.

1- 1060 A.D.
Hippo builds LW's onto Uni.

Trade PP & contact with Keltoi with Persia for Chiv, Astron & 25 g.
Astronomy to Ottomans for 10gpt & 110 g.
Invention to Bab for 27 g.
Greece will not trade GUNPOWDER

Utica swithces to Cop.Ob Theveste onto palace prebuild.
Carthage onto worker.

Lux +1
Tech 0

2- 1070 AD

Rome and Utica would benefit from a temporary forest or two (2 shields on forest tiles). Workers go to plant them.
Research is so slow best to trade until gold stocks are replenished.
Carthage builds worker onto wealth.

3- 1080 AD
Rome finishes courthouse- onto worker.

4- 1090 AD
Rome builds worker onto worker.

5- 1100 AD
Rome build worker onto wealth.

6- 1110 AD
Not much
7- 1120 AD
Move tech slider. Music Theory in 11

8- 1130 AD
Theology to Vikings for 4 gpt & 27 g.
9- 1140 AD
Utica build Copernicus's Observatory.
Trade Astron + 147 g. for Banking from Bab's
Banking to Ottomans for Gunpowder & 12 g. (we have 1 saltpeter)
Carthage & Rome start bank.

10- 1150 AD
Greece demands banking. I say no! They back down (again).
Utica finishes Worker onto bank.
Lux down 1 to 0
Music theory in 7 turns.

Another turn bites the dust :)

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_AD1150_01.SAV

Conclusions/Suggestions

Disbanding will increase revenue.
WLTQD's should end now lux is back on 0. Navigation will help to trade for lux resource and WLTQD's will return without need for lux slider to be raise above 0.
Palace prebuild 1 turn after Music theory.
5 Banks = Stock markets = Wall street. A good surplus gold is needed to gain that 50 gpt interest.
For a cultural victory Mil Acad would be good but for that a war is needed to create GL & army. This wouldn't help diplomatic vic.

Sir_Ortin

Nov 09, 2004, 01:13 AM

@Matternich:

> We have far too much military for the kind of attacks any enemy could possibly
> make at this level. It is costing us gold. Touch of paranoia perhaps. Why catapults??

When AI discovers ironclads/fregats, they usually declare a war and pillage terrain improvements from ships without landing. Nothing is better against ships then artillery. Of course, we can build it later, but at that time we will have much more choises what to build. So, it is better to build catapults now (while we have nothing to build better) and just upgrade them later.

And question: How Mil.Acad. will help us in Culture victory??? By it's culture? Then HeroicEpic is better, IMHO.
EDIT: MilAcad. require 3 armies, every army require 4 cities = total 12 cities. Of cource we can make city's trick again, but I think it does not cost all these efforts.

Grayarea

Nov 09, 2004, 07:29 AM

1 KA - Playing next
2 Gray - Get ready
3 Sir Ortin
4 Alex top
5 Matternich - Just played

Matternich

Nov 09, 2004, 01:55 PM

@Sir_Ortin. Yes we should build troops closer to the time we need them as every turn they cost gold. We are short of gold for research at the moment. As regards pillaging ironclads I think you are being a touch paranoid. A couple of ironclads of our own would see them off in no time. We are not playing on Deity after all.

I agree Heroic Epic would be good too. But both are not mutually exclusive and both require victorous army/armies.

Mil academy & H.epic are only worth acquiring if we are going for a cultural victory in which case then yes it probably is worth the effort.
BTW you dont need 3 armies 1 will do for mil acad.
.

King Alexander

Nov 09, 2004, 05:13 PM

Yes, after the Army has attacked and won, you can build the HE and the MA: in our case we could only have 1 Army(unless we formed 3 more cities for a second Army and disbanded them).

Matternich: I agree that we're paying too much support-gold for our units, but we can't do otherwise, as other civs would settle in our island. Banks, WS, ect.. will help us economically.

Smith's is also a very good Wonder, even for 5 cities.

Rome and Theveste would expand soon, so we could use our units elsewhere.

Catapults are essential in all kind of maps, especially since we're on an island: in our case, I'd prefer us to have MANY catapults and a few offensive/defensive units, so when the enemy's units were red-lined we could very easily finish them of without any loses.

We only have 5 cities, and we can't afford losing one and begin another one from scratch.

Don't forget that the AI won't have forever musketmen, but (mech)Infantry, later on, and we'd need a bunch of offensive units to only take out 4 Infantry(let alone if they were 8 from a transport and in hills/mountains).

btw: Good trading Matternich :goodjob:

More later.

EDIT: I don't understand the need to build fortresses if we don't have a unit there fortified: if the terrain were bombed that would destroy the road anyway, unless a unit were fortified to protect the improvements by taking the damage itself.

We also have a worker cutting a forest way outside the borders(maybe for faster railroading?) and another one irrigating a tile outside the radius of Carthage(there is water in the nearby tiles if we want to "drag" it).

King Alexander

Nov 09, 2004, 07:18 PM

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_AD1250_01.SAV

Tean sorry, but I had an "accident" with my Internet Explorer(shut down), and, unfortunately, I lost all my notes, since I write them here :mad:

I'll tell you how the situation is:

We've build banks in Carthage, Utica, Hippo, and they're set on wealth.

I traded with the Ottomans for Music Theory for 67g(cheap), since the Persians and Greece had traded it in between.

I started on Economics(currently set in 6 turns), and I also started a palace pre-build in Rome for Smith's: Rome should work immediately the tile that the 2 workers are planting a forest(when they're done), to increase it's shields.

Theveste needs 10 turns to finish Bach's, and I think that it should be ours, if nothing bad happens(but I doubt it).

Our bet is to NOT TRADE ECONOMICS if: We haven't built first Bach's in Theveste(and we shouldn't trade Economics the same turn that we complete Bach's, of course.

If there is a good trade for tech out there and someone is paying good money, and AFTER we have built Bach's, we can trade Economics.

I also traded Keltoi Astronomy for gold(don't remember how much) and 3gpt.

Germany demanded Astronomy, I refused and they declared war: that was happened 4 turns before I finish my turns.

We make +13gpt and we should begin to upgrade our units, slowly, of course, and since we have Leo's it's cheap.

Note: a Persian caravel is reight next to Utica, so, be prepared if the Persians declare again. Hit with catapults first.

After Economics we could start on Navigation for Magellan's and trade for other tech's, as we also don't want to lose the race for Newton's.

Sir_Ortin

Nov 10, 2004, 01:22 AM

Hi guys. I mismatched Mil.Academy with Pentagon. Thanks for correcting me.

I still think that we should build in Utica all high-culture wonders. As I can see from notes of K.A. (I was not looking into save yet), Bach's is building in Hippo, but not in Utica, which is producing wealth. This is incorrect, IMHO. Please, discuss it, if you think another.
If something happened, and we could not get UN, 20k victory would be possible only in Utica. This is why we should try to make a strong back-door to victory.

Grayarea

Nov 10, 2004, 02:43 AM

1 KA - Just played
2 Gray - Playing next
3 Sir Ortin - Get ready
4 Alex top
5 Matternich

I got it, will play tonight or tomorrow night.

King Alexander

Nov 10, 2004, 10:42 AM

I still think that we should build in Utica all high-culture wonders.

I think the same as you - No objection about Utica -, but:
Theveste already had a palace pre-built for Bach's before my turns and Matternich did the right thing IMHO, by begin the pre-built at Theveste - because Utica was building university at the time, which gives very good culture.

The fault is mine, because I let Utica to complete the bank when I got the save and started playing :wallbash: , instead of begin a palace pre-build for Bach's.

My fear is if we're going to complete Bach's BEFORE anyone else has learnt Economics, so there is a cascade to Smith's(Rome is going for Smith's).

When we learn Economics, Rome should immediately switch to Smith's and, because the palace pre-built will be available, Utica should also immediately begin a palace pre-build and go for Magellan's after a while, and when(and if) we learn ToG before Magellan's is completed, switch to Newton's.

Of course, another pre-build should be made to also try for both Wonders if it's impossible to build both in Utica.

We can also try to "extend" a palace pre-built in Utica as much as possible if we don't have the tech's for Newton's/Magellan's, by working the coastal tiels as well as unimproved tiles or tiles with low shields.

btw: Team, I'm glad when we all comment on the game after each player has finished his turns, as we can understand easier what the previous player did and how things would go for us.
We can also comment on anything, so we all learn to play better, and Sir_Ortin( :goodjob: ) pointed a stupid move from me which would cause me to be more careful in my future strategy.

Grayarea

Nov 10, 2004, 02:32 PM

Other than the outlined options, is there anything I should be aware of?

Which of the upcomming wonders are highest culture and, therefore to built in Utica?

Matternich

Nov 10, 2004, 03:00 PM

Looks like economy is slowly strengthening. By the time steam arrives we should be able to research better.

Prebuilt in Theveste simply because it speeds up culture in that city and therefore widens southern cultural borders sooner. It's far too late for a single city cultural victory as that is best when EVERY wonder where possible is built in one city.

Theveste also has the highest shield output (when it has WLTQD) and it's easy to slow down shield production there when palace build overshoots the next tech giving the new wonder.

Incidentally Theveste will have a high population eventually so is a good candidate for those wonders which double Scientific research. Also for the same reason a wonder like shakesT. that gives happy faces. Utica may not grow as big.

Please build workers when possible. (I know I keep repeating this). Besides faster railroads it also means we have a supply of citizens to add to cities after hospitals. This speeds up growth into metropolis's and super metropolis's.

How about this- we build 12 settlers ready for Pentagon. (in between buildings). If we don't use them or don't want to they can be added back to the cities later on when hospitals are built.

Ok blame me for all the useless worker improvements outside cities- I just wanted them doing things.

Grayarea

Nov 11, 2004, 04:31 PM

Pre-flight

Not much to do :)

IBT

Persians demanded 3 gold and thought why not. They landed a immortal as soon as I said bye anyway!

Ottomans are building Bach's

1255AD (1)

ZZZ

IBT

We lost our furs and horses and Persia declares!
The immortal attacks Utica and our defender wins but is redlined.

1260AD (2)

Start generating attack for Ravenna, tis a blight on our wholesome continent!

Carthage Wealth > Merc

IBT

1265AD (3)

ZZZ

IBT

Babylonians are building Magellans
Carthage merc > merc

1270AD (4)

ZZZ

IBT

Keltoi is building Bach's

1275AD (5)

ZZZ

IBT

Economics > Navigation, is this the correct move or should I have gone for Tog? Anyway Smith's in 16 in Rome.

1280BC (6)

ZZZ

IBT

Persia lands 3 swords and attacks Theveste, two swords die for no losses.
Persia is building Magellans

1285AD (7)

Two cats redline remaining sword and a horse kills but does not premote.

Merc attacks Ravenna, kills spear flawlessly but does not premote. I abandon Ravenna. My first city capture in this game :)

IBT

Keltoi asks for economics I tell him to take a running jump, he backs down.

Babylon setteler lands in gap I left when attacking persian city. Sorry guys, did not think.

1290AD (8)

ZZZ

IBT

Babylon settle azzad in gap. It does not destroy any of our Colonies.

Persian sword lands near Theveste.

1295AD (9)

Attack sword, cats redline and merc kills and is promoted to elite.

IBT

Bach's is ours!

1300AD (10)

ZZZ

Score 761, yet upload said fraxis score 681, is this not the same score?

Grayarea

Nov 11, 2004, 04:32 PM

1 KA
2 Gray - Just played
3 Sir Ortin - Playing next
4 Alex top - Get ready
5 Matternich

King Alexander

Nov 11, 2004, 06:49 PM

A few points:

1) I'd like to remind everyone that we're still in war with Germany, but they don't want to talk at the moment.

2) It's nice that we completed Bach's, as expected.

3) Theveste must build it's bank, so we have a higher gpt, and the city expands in 3 turns, which means that we can have 3 units going elsewhere.

4) Rome can build Smith's in 11 turns and not 12, if we work the forest that is not worked(take a citizen from a 1-shield tile and assign him to the forest), and the the city can work 1 more forest before starvation, if we plant it, so it makes even more shields.

5) I thought that Utica was set to a palace pre-built at the end of the 5th turn, - after Rome could switch to Smith's and the palace was available as a pre-built - so it could go for Magellan's or Newton's when available.

We risk losing even Newton's if there is to be a cascade in the future from Magellan's.

Babylon started Magellan's after the end of our 3rd turn, which means that we were 1 turn behind for Magellan's, BUT, Babylon is building Magellan's in Neneveh(size 8 city), so we could build the Wonder for sure, because Persia also begun building it after our 6th turn.

I also don't know(the log doesn't say anything) if there was a cascade from Bach's to Smith's for the AI.

The Persians are building Magellan's in Persepolis(capital, size 12), so the possibilities are against us.

However, I'd strongly vote to begin Magellan's in Utica - Theveste needs bank -(palace first, as we don't know Navigation, but we'll learn it soon), as if there's even a slight possibility of taking it, we should go for it, and, besides, we have nothing to lose now, but only win.

If we lose the Wonder, we could switch to palace and "extend" it as much as we can, while we're working hard on science to get ToG, and if we see that the palace pre-built can't last long, abandon it immediately and begin a new palace pre-built for Newton's(all civs are missing the 3 techs required: chemistry, Physics, ToG).

Remember that Persepolis is being built too close to Tarsus and Antioch(less shields than it could work), and, as we all know, the AI makes entertainers when it hasn't the necessary luxuries or it simply manages it's city's citizens badly.
As for Neneveh, we'll see what it'll do.

6) We have 3 workers fortified in the mountains, but they're not needed there.
We can use the foreing worker to "occupy" a tile that can be settled, and use the 2 natives for roads and/or fortify them in our cities.

Remember that we need to "occupy" all the tiles that can be settled, so, built some more troops(we don't need many for this job now, as most tiles are "occupied").

Another idea is to "replace" some of our Elites that are on "occupation", and replace them, so we can attack more with Elites and give a shot for Leaders(that would make our life easier for the Wonders and MA/HE).

7) Akkad certainly needs to be destroyed: We may have to declare on Babylon, but we can't afford losing our wool's when the city will built a temple, and I really don't want anyone on our island anymore.

8) Persia will accept peace if we want to, but I'm thinking that we should give a chance and try for Great Leaders as much as we can. If we manage smart our Elites(bombing with catapults first), we could have a Great Leader(s).
It's the Team's decision, however.

9) I don't think that we can win a Diplomatic Victory, but built the U.N anyway, so we don't allow another civ to win the game, but, again, it's the Team's decision if we should try on Diplo.

P.S.: We all make our mistakes in a game, so, I have nothing against any member when I critic someone, just to know. We just play to improve our game and to have fun :)

EDIT: Just remember that an Elite* that has produced a Great Leader, won't produce another one, so he should attack LAST of all the available (nearby)units, as we'd lose a chance for another Great Leader or promoting a unit to Elite.
Also, when a Leader is made, he should be used right away(for a Wonder, or to form an Army), IF there're more Elites that will attack on the same turn, because, we can't have more than 1 Leader at the same time.

I wanted just to remind it, as I'm sure that you have heard of it :goodjob:

Remember to not trade Economics, so we have more "safety" of completing Smith's.

Please, post your thoughts :)

Grayarea

Nov 12, 2004, 12:53 AM

Well I am here to learn, and I think I am :)

I won't make the mistake of moving units and not blocking in future. I considered attacking the babs setteler before he settled but thought that two wars was enough and I also did not want to get in to the situation that everyone else pig piled on us.

I fortified the workers as I did not see anything for them to usefully do. In future I will move unused works to blocking duty if any is available.

On the elite frount usually I use elite units on attacks, but we had no elite merc units as far as I could see, and they had by far the best attack.

How do you find out which enemy city is building a particular wonder???

All other civs went from Bach's -> Maggellan, I noted all switchs in my notes.

King Alexander

Nov 12, 2004, 05:35 AM

Well I am here to learn, and I think I am :)

You are certainly learning/improving quickly :) , but so am I ;)

I won't make the mistake of moving units and not blocking in future.

Maybe it wasn't your fault at all, if you hadn't enough units there.
Thing is, we all agreed to "occupy" every tile that can be settled, it's 1300AD and we're still discussing about it, and I don't know why. We need to occupy every tile that can be settled - simple enough.

We only have some units in mountains to keep an eye for barbs and watch if someone lands there, nothing more, and we only need those units as they currently are, because you we can see the nearby tiles so we don't need a unit in every mountain.

We don't need that many extra units for occupation anymore, just a few.

I considered attacking the babs setteler before he settled but thought that two wars was enough and I also did not want to get in to the situation that everyone else pig piled on us.

I understand your concerns. IMHO, there's not much danger because in a war, we're playing on our Home(in this type of map).
Just bombing with catapults and attack with some offensice units will do the job, and, besides, we can always produce more units if and when needed, as the AI needs many turns to unload other units on our island.

On the elite frount usually I use elite units on attacks, but we had no elite merc units as far as I could see, and they had by far the best attack.

I'd use our Elites only for Leader-fishing to attack injured units, so we're not lose any of them. Even Elite Hoplites(attack 2) could take on red-lined units with low defence or kill immediately warriors/archers(if we can't bombard first).

How do you find out which enemy city is building a particular wonder???

Hit F7.
It's good to have major events(AI Wonders as well as ours, wars, etc...) in bold so we can find the logs easier when needed.
If the AI loses a Wonder, it's city would switch to another one and you can see from F7 if id did so and also see the if the city is the same on(sometimes they switch, if the Wonder was on a low-shield city).

All other civs went from Bach's -> Maggellan, I noted all switchs in my notes.
I don't remember if Persepolis was building Bach's(I think it was another city, a former Indian city: I'll try to track it on the logs), that's the problem.

ONLY 2 civs are currently building Magellan's: Persia and Babylon(F7).

That's why I said that we might have a chance of getting it, even if it's a small chance.

Before playing, we could read all the posts/comments that were posted after the last save, so we know/keep in mind many ideas/issues.

King Alexander

Nov 12, 2004, 06:27 AM

I can't find where Persia was building Bach's from looking at the logs, but I could swear that it was the northern-most, former Indian city(I don't remember the name).

Sir_Ortin

Nov 12, 2004, 06:45 AM

Hi guys!
I got the game and will play tonight.

Matternich

Nov 13, 2004, 03:47 AM

If we get GL I suggest building an army rather than a GW especially if diplomatic victory is looking less likely. Don’t count it out however.
Mostly wars only make just the opponent furious, especially when good relations already exist with others. Culture of civ and gov also play a part.

A great way to keep friendly with other nations is to bribe them into military alliances.
Weaker nations can even be destroyed and so won't vote against us. This is important when at war as it also prevents the enemy from buying other nations to join in the attack.
Wiping out a nation completely is not liked by the AI, but with the right trading/gifting
even an old enemy can turn polite after enough turns.

Hope we are lucky with the Wonder cascade thing. I was surprised we beat Greece last time. The AI often neglects improving tiles as efficiently so there's a chance we'll make it.

BTW- I think the graph has a cut off date so it does't show the last save- hence our lower score.
Edit- now looking at the graph I am wrong. Our Firaxis score has not taken in the last score, but why I dont know. Maybe it only includes 1350 or more.

King Alexander

Nov 13, 2004, 06:38 AM

@Sir_Ortin: start the palace ptr-build in Utica at the pre-turn, so we won't waste another turn. It's a small(perhaps very small) possibility that we're going to take Magellan's, but I can't see what we have to lose now.

If we use the first GL to form an Army, make sure that it'll attack someone, so we later build HE/MA in Utica.
20k is not out of the game, but I don't know if it'll be good for us(for the score), to wait until well inside the modern ages.

When we're going to strike Akkad, better to not be at the same turn as we declare at Babylon(they'll get furious), so just move troops inside, declare, and strike the next turn.
Just be careful not to withdraw troops from tiles that can be settled because someone else will settle again. We have some troops inside the cities that can "replace" Elite occupation units(but leave at least an offensive unit inside each city - don't withdraw all).

As for the score, I don't know.

Sir_Ortin

Nov 13, 2004, 10:07 AM

1300(0) - Changed production in Utica to built Palace. Theveste start build Bank. Carthage and Hippo start build settlers.
IBT: Babylon and persia now at alliance against us. Good.

1305(1) - Move our elite units to Akkad.

1310(2) - Carthage and Hippo both build settlers, start wealth.
IBT: Babylon attack our hoplite with (forget the name of unit) from Akkad, our hoplite won with 1 hp left.

1315(3) - Start to bomb Akkad, three shots missed. :( I suppose our artillerist just had not expirience yet. :)
IBT: Greece and persia have signed alliance against us.

1320(4) - Reserched Navigation, start Chemistry. Bobm Akkad, 4 shots, 2 hits - Spearman inside have 1 red. Persian mercenary killed spearman in Akkad, no damage, no promote. Utica changed to MagellansVoyage. Traded Ottomans Chemistry and world map for our economics. Traded Keltoi Silk + world map + 2gpt for our whool. Traded Viking world map for our wool. I hope no more civs now will start war with us. Start research Physics at 30% (17 turns).
IBT: Persian landed immortal near Theveste. ~6 ships are heading us.

1325(5) - Bomb persian immortal - 3 shots - 3 hits! Our piople learn really quick! :)) Killed immortal (with 1 hp) with veteran horse, no upgrade, no damage. Sell world map to Ottomans for 28g.Sell world map to Keltoi for their world map + 9g + 3gpt.
IBT: Greece and Percia start Smith's Trading Co. German landed near Theveste 1 pikeman and 2 frankish axeman.

1330(6) - Bomb german - 3 shots, 2 hits of pikeman. Two our horseman take each by 1 hp from german axmen and safely retreated.
IBT: German troops move imnside our territory - very good that they did not pillage.

1335(7) - Theveste built Bank, start Settler. Bomb germans - 5 shots, 4 hits. Damn! They loaded back 1hp pikeman into galley and sail away. Killed 2 german axemen with our elite - no promotion, no damage.
IBT: Babylonian asked for peace, I said no! Ottomans start build Smith's Trading Co. Persia landed one Immortal. Babylon landed pikeman and swordsman.

1340(8) - Bomb landed troops. This is incredible, but true: 8 shots, 8 hits!!! :) All landed troops are now 1hp. Our mercenary killed pikeman and produce a leader. I decided to build army. Killed 2 remains troops, no damage, no upgrade. Traded Keltoi
Democracy for our Economics and Chemistry.
IBT: Keltoi start build Smith's Trading Co.

1345(9) - Not much, just moving.
IBT: Babylon lands Azap infantry and longbowman.

1350(10) - Bomb babylon troops - 8 shots, 3 hits. Our army now has victory - killed longbowman! Hoplite killed azap infantry and produce another leader. I HAVE NOT MOVED THE LEADER YET. Let next payer to move him according to the team's desision.

Now we must decide what to do with the leader. There are 3 ways:
1. Immediatelly hurry Magellan's in Theveste and switch to HeroicEpic in Utica. Good is our building speed. Bad is that we will lost more then 50 shields in Utica and all future culture from Magellan's. Good is - we save time.
2. Move leader to the Utica and hold him there until we can hurry from zero some wonder Shaks.Theatre or Newton's univer. Bad is that we can lost Magellan's (6 more turns to build). Good is - we will collect more culture in Utca quicker for 20k victory.
3. Found new 3 cities and produce second army.

I recommend to use second choice and save the leader for new wonder. I think that war will end soon and possibility to produce another leader soon is very low.

Sir_Ortin

Nov 13, 2004, 10:10 AM

I still think we can do a 20k victory. Not enough quick, but granted victory.

King Alexander

Nov 13, 2004, 03:48 PM

Our mercenary killed pikeman and produce a leader. I decided to build army.

Glad to hear that we now have an Army and can build HE/MA(In Utica of course!)

Hoplite killed azap infantry and produce another leader. I HAVE NOT MOVED THE LEADER YET.

That's indeed GREAT news!!!! :goodjob:

1) Just to remember: we need 5 more units to "occupy" all the available tiles for settling: there'd always be a settler trying to reach those tiles, if we don't occupy them, and we should do.

We have 3 workers fortified near Carthage, and if we take 2 horses from Rome, we occupy everything!

Later on, we'll "replace" the workers in occupation with units, before railroads are to come(I hope we get coal, as it was unfair that we don't got horses on our whole island).

2) About the Great Leader:

Here's the situation with our cities; Rome completes Smith's next turn :)
Utica needs 6 more turns to complete Magellan's.

It takes risk, but, I'd let Utica to complete Magellan's in 6 (IF we're lucky): we may lose the Wonder but we could always change it to the HE if we lose the Wonder(never mind for the shields). Utica is our only hope for 20K victory.

We could then use the GL to hurry a Wonder asap, and, maybe claim both Shakespeer's and Newton's.

Utica should always be building a Wonder or have a palace in pre-built:
The Military Academy(1cpt) can't be counted out, as it gives some culture that could save us some turns in a 20k Victory: it'll be clever from us if we use the MA as Utica's pre-built to get the US and ToE. The MA can always be built in Utica when a Wonder won't be in our way.

Later on, we'll have the Universal Suffrage, ToE, etc...

Just check the Diplo every turn to see what techs the other civs have, so we khow what's going on.

3) Keltoi will give their WM + 20g +6gpt for our spices.
Ottomans will give WM + 64g for our Ivory OR WM + 64g + 6gpt for Ivory + Wool.
Vikings will give WM + 16g for our WM.

4) As for the war, I'd say that we could go on, but we could hope for another GL, only if we first use the current one. I don't have a problem to continue the war for some more turns.
If we do continue the war while we have the GL, DO NOT ATTACK with Elites, but give a chance to other units to promote.

Suggestions?

Matternich

Nov 14, 2004, 04:32 AM

Hooray!! 2 GL's Well done Sir Ortin!!!

Agree with KA as to what to do with them regarding wonders etc..
Except for no.4 about not attacking with Elites which I would do as a Great Leader in the hand is worth two in the promotional bush. If S_Ortin had followed that advice we wouldnt have had a second GL.

Anyone any comments about military alliances?

Also don't let the 20k city victory get in the way of overall strat. Won't a city wide cultural victory happen first?

.

AlanH

Nov 14, 2004, 05:51 AM

Score 761, yet upload said fraxis score 681, is this not the same score?
[/lurk]
You had me worried, so I downloaded your 1300 AD and 1350 AD saves and loaded them up. In F8 they give scores of 681 and 704 respectively, and that's what's in the database for your saves. I think you may be looking at Persia's score, which happens to be 761 at 1300 AD, and not neoCarthage's?
[lurk]

King Alexander

Nov 14, 2004, 06:07 AM

@Matternich: would we need MA against other civs? I'm afraid if a civ becomes too strong and is a problem for us, later in the game, because the civs we can make MA with are weak somehow.

Just to remind everyone: we're at war with Germany, Persia, Babylon and Greece. Only Greece won't talk.

Matternich

Nov 14, 2004, 05:02 PM

@ KA

I am really talking about this from a diplomatic victory stance as no nation will ever become too strong. That is strong enough to defeat or worry us either militarily or through a large tech lead.
No, the sole reason for military alliances is to keep in the good books of other civs when we happen to be at war. I wouldnt go seeking an MA in peace time. Personally I don't care if weak nations are wiped out by stronger nations except for the fact that it's one less possible UN vote lost. Weaker nations do tend to be easier to make polite and gracious because of missing tech which can be gifted.

If a strong nation attacks us now but especially as we approach the UN wonder there's a chance they may MA against us which will result in everyone being annoyed with us, ruining the early votes. If we MA against that strong nation they will be less likely to attack us again and everyone on our Military side will be more likely to be polite.
Its easier to gift one civ back up to polite than 3 or 4.

Probably not worth it for wars that will have peace soon but for fresh wars a 20 turn MA with all other peaceful nations is the right course for war in general.

The problem at the moment is we dont have enough civs who we are at peace with and enough tech/gold to pay for a MA. Worth bearing in mind if we are attacked again however later in the game.

.

Alex Top

Nov 14, 2004, 07:36 PM

1350ad (0)
Keltoi began Magellan's
Greeks landed near Rome
1355ad (1) Rome complited Smith's
Trade ottomans our ivory and wool for 31g+7gpt+maps
Trade vikings world map for 20g wm tm
trade Keltoi World map spicees ivory for maps 40g 17gpt
1360ad (2)
1365ad (3) Greeks landed more forces near Rome.
Battles near Rome.
1370ad (4) Greeks building Shakespeare's
1375ad (5) Ottomans, Babylonians,persians are building Shakespeare's.
1380ad (6) Utica complite Magellan's - heroic epic
Greeks,babilonians,persians,keltoi swich to Shakespear's.
1385ad (7) Phisics - Theory of gravity. (10turns +4gpt)
Trade phisics to Ottomans for horses,Free Artistry, Metalurgy,World map, 101g+25gpt.
Built shakespear's in Utica. (ToG in 9 turns +1gpt)
1390ad (8) Shakespear's in Utica - Heroic Epic
1395ad (9) Nobody building wonders!!!
Some upgrades.
1400AD (10) Greeks coming from west. I move forses there.

King Alexander

Nov 14, 2004, 08:31 PM

It's GREAT that we built both Magellan's and Shakespeer's!!!
Be careful to NOT finish HE in the same turn as we learn ToG: we could "extend" HE for 1 more turn.

Guys, the other civs are REALLY annoyed/furious now: I think that we can say "adios" to a UN victory. Almost all civs know Military Tradition.

Greece wants Theveste for plain Peace Treaty and Persia wants Rome!!! Germany wants Chemistry for peace: we're at war with them since my previous turns...

I'd make peace with Babylon asap, and peace with Persia, Greece and Germany when it's possible.

btw: start upgrading our units; we have some horses to upgrade and also our catapults to canons.
Soon we'll be fighting calvaries and we need some more knights.
Also, we should upgrade an hoplite to musket in each city, for a start.

If needed, we could run science at 50%, so we can make the upgrades and built some knights.

Oh, don't forget to build coastal fortress in our coastal cities: it'd be frustrating if we lose an improvement because of bombard.

Grayarea

Nov 15, 2004, 05:06 PM

1 KA - Get ready
2 Gray
3 Sir Ortin
4 Alex top - Just played
5 Matternich - Playing next

Matternich

Nov 15, 2004, 08:11 PM

0- 1400 AD
We are short of gold and our revenue is low. Greece lands troops.

1- 1405 AD
I disband every catapult in Hippo and switch it to Caravel. Where is our Navy?? Gpt increase from 1pt to 11pt

Babylon- peace and MA against Greece then 7gpt each for wool and spices.
MA Ottomans against Greece for Banking.
Keltoi Ma against Greece for Metallurgy.
Peace with Germany for old tech. & MA against Greece with more old tech.
(NB Periodically gift Germany with old tech.)

Whatever the outcome we are now at war with Greece for another 20 turns.

Persia will now give us peace for only 40 gold. I accept. Persia is the only nation not at war with Greece.

Move tech +1 TOG in 4 turns

2-1410 AD
Palace Expansion. Take out a Greek Knight with Hop.Theveste builds settler.

3- 1415 AD
2 Greeks (hop and swordsman) die. Is this all we have to face from the rest of the world? Greece will offer peace but it is important that we say no until every MA has expired and is not renewed.

4- 1420 AD
2 Greek mercenaries are dispatched.
Trade wool to Persians for Furs and 21 gpt. Pays back that 40 g for peace and then some. TOG next turn.

5- 1425 AD
Keltoi supply of silk + 2gpt for wool ends. I can renew for 6gpt but go for a straight swap.

This is the year. At last we are a tech ahead and can start to trade for big bucks.

Trade TOG with Persians for a MASSIVE 107 gold per turn.
TOG – Ottomans 54 gpt & Military trad
TOG- Babylonians Mil trad (it was this or 4ogpt- might have been better to go for the extra 40gpt now I think about it.)
Democracy to Germany 1 gpt + 9 g.

Now we can play the tech lead/bleed game.
Magnetism in 6 turns.
Where to build Newton’s ?? Utica I think as heroic epic has been a nice prebuild. Heroic epic can be next. Then Universal suffrage from a MA prebuild perhaps.,

6- 1430 AD
Not much.
7- 1435 AD
Hippo build caravels navy grwoing bigger. Onto caravel. Disband a couple of knights queue a couple of cavalry- slowly upgrade. Take tech slider -1 mag still in 4 turns.

8-1440 AD Not much
9-1445 AD Cav built more of same.
10- 1450 AD That’s it all done.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_AD1450_01.SAV

Conclusion/Suggestions

Push tech slider high.
Bleed AI of gpt by selling new tech to fund future research.
Keep an eye on when AI gpt deals end to sell on that turn where applicable.

Mag in 1 turn- Tech route could be Steam, Medicine, Elect, Scient theo.
Trade these for nationalism & Industrialization etc as AI learns them.
From there probably either no tech or corporation untill TOE is built then let that give us AtomT & Electronics for hoover dam. After that Radio- let AI go for the other tech and trade for it.

Keep popping out settlers/workers – sanitation is just around the corner.
Workers will soon be needed with steam too.

King Alexander

Nov 16, 2004, 02:51 AM

@Matternich: are you sure that we shouldn't go for Industrialization after Steam? We could also trade it for huge gpt if we learn it first and also begin factories in our cities.
Thing is that we'll know when to start our pre-build in Utica for US as is a Wonder that gives 4cp and we don't want to lose it: I'd say that we could also see if we could rush a factory in Utica and build the US sooner(we could change a palace/Wonder pre-built to factory) and then go for ToE also in Utica.

Medicine is a tech that the AI goes for, Sanitation also(for hospitals and more poweful cities for our science) and we could trade for them, as well as Nationalism.

Matternich

Nov 16, 2004, 12:20 PM

@KA
Yes indust after steam is good. I tend not to go for it just to make sure that ToE is achieved quickly and definitely but you're probably right about the prebuild being easier to measure for USuff. As for gpt as long as we have new tech it doesn't matter too much but the 2 free tech from ToE tends to put us beyond what the AI can afford anyway. Often end up waiting for gpt deals to end before selling unique new tech.

As for medicine being an AI tech choice I have to say I have rarely found this to be the case, at least not in vanilla civ (on emperor and deity). Other civs seem to make a beeline for Communism and Espionage and/or Steam and Industrialisation (esp scientific civs like Persia Babylon etc who usually get Nationalism free) but with these new civs like Ottomans, Vikings, Keltoi I have no idea. Although of these PtW civs only Ottomans are capable of researching competitively at the moment in this game.
I think India likes to go for medicine now and again though.

.

King Alexander

Nov 16, 2004, 03:30 PM

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm4/Grayarea_SG004_AD1500_01.SAV

Pre-turn
Made upgrades.

IBT
Greece and Vilkings sign Peace Treaty.
Keltoi start Newton's.
We learn Magnetism >> start Steam Power in 10turns at 100%(+45gpt).

1455AD (1)
Persia, Babylon and Ottomans know Nationalism.

IBT
Greece and Keltoi sign Peace Treaty.

We had a deal with Keltoi: they gave 17gpt for Ivory + Spices. I'll not renew the deal since I want to trade our luxuries elsewhere if and when we can(I'll check).
Keltoi don't know Magnetism and they'll pay someone else for it since all the other civs know it.
So, I trade Keltoi Magnetism for WM +14g(all their gold) +23gpt.

Our Wool + Ivory deal with the Ottomans ends: I give Ottomans Wool + Spices for WM + 117g(almost all their gold) + 5gpt.

1460AD (2)
I trade with Babylon: I give 1 of our excess Ivories for WM + 35g(all their gold) + 10gpt.

We can lower our science to 90%, Steam Power in 9, 310g, + 91gpt.

1465AD (3)
Nothing.

1470AD (4)
Nothing.

1475AD (5)
Utica: Newton's University >> Heroic Epic.

1480AD (6)
We drop science to 80%, Steam in 5, + 113gpt.

IBT
Our horse deal ends: I offer Babylon WM +15g + 9gpt for horses.
It's better to pay them gpt, so they don't even "think" of making an MA against us in the future.

1485AD (7)
Looking at the diplo screen(as usual) every turn, I see that Persia learned Steam Power, and because they're the only ones that know it, they won't trade for anything.
We need 4 turns for Steam.

1490AD (8)
Lower science to 60%, Steam in 3, + 135gpt. No one else but Persia knows Steam.

1495AD (9)
Nothing.

1500AD (10)
Nothing.

Summary
1) Nobody has Steam except Persia. We learn Steam next turn and then go for Industrialization. Check out if anyone is paying good money for Steam, although I don't think that they can give much gpt, because Persia would have already sell it to the other civs.

2) Utica should begin Military Academy as a pre-built for USuff or as a pre-built to factory(the USuff is always made sooner with factory as it is very expensive), while we learn Industrialization.

3) Rome is set for one more worker as it grows and makes the worker at the same turn. Let's hope that, at least, we'll have coal(unless "someone" wants to make it hard for us ;) ).

4) Our deal with Keltoi ends in 4 turns(they give Silks, we give Wool): renew it. I also have Spices(in reserve) to trade for the Silks if they're too expensive.
We can also give Germany Spices for the same gpt as Keltoi give, if the later don't have money to pay it. Wait and see.

5) As for the tech path after Industrialization, go for ToE and "check" the path in the science screen.

6) Railroad the tiles that our city work, first, and then go and connect our cities(connect West and East), and then everything else.

Grayarea

Nov 17, 2004, 01:37 PM

1 KA - Just played
2 Gray - Playing next
3 Sir Ortin - Get ready
4 Alex top
5 Matternich

Got it, will play tomorrow night.

Grayarea

Nov 18, 2004, 01:04 PM

What does "USuff" mean?

Grayarea

Nov 18, 2004, 03:14 PM

Pre-flight

Not much to do :)

IBT

We learn Steam and on to Indust

Rome Worker > Cavalry

1505AD (1)

Ended our MA with Babylon.
General Railroading!

IBT

Babylon wool for 7gpt renewed for 9gpt.
Ottoman MA cancelled.
Carthage Cavalry > Cavalry
Hippo Cannon > Worker

1510AD (2)

Sent Cavalry to replace Hoplite for upgrade.
Moved merc onto worker position to free up worker.
General Railroading!

IBT

Swapped maps with Ottomans.
Heroic epic is ours. Pre build Military Accadamy
Theveste Cavalry > Worker

1515AD (3)

General Railroading!

IBT

Theveste Worker > Cavalry

1520AD (4)

General Railroading!

IBT

Keltoi renews silks+7gpt for wool+spices
Persia renews Furs+19gpt for wool
Persia declares on the greeks.
Rome Cavalry > Worker
Hippo Cannon > Worker
Greece give peace+10gpt for peace.
Ottoman give world map+46gpt+19 for Steam
Greece gives Incense+5gpt+20 for silks
Greece gives 15gpt+5 for coal

1525AD (5)

General Railroading!

IBT

Carthage Cavalry > Worker
Rome Worker > Cavalry
Hippo Worker > Cannon
Persia gets medicine1

1530BC (6)

General Railroading!

IBT

Greece and babylon sign peace treaty
Babylon asks for map+73, tell him to take a hike and they declare!
Carthage Worker > Musketman
Vikings and Babylon sign mpp and embargo
Theveste Cavalry > Worker

1535AD (7)

General Railroading!

IBT

Theveste Worker > Frigate
Hippo Cannon > Worker

1540AD (8)

General Railroading!

IBT

Greece asks for world map sawp, I say yes.
We learn Indust move on to medicine
Carthage Musket > Worker
Rome Cavalry > Worker
Hippo Worker > Factory

1545AD (9)

General Railroading!

IBT

1550AD (10)

Greece gives nationalism+world map+39gpt+80 for indust
Persia gives horses+54gpt+190 for indust

Score 783

I did not cave to the babs because I thought that they would probably declare anyway due to the large amount of cash they demanded. Thoughts?

I forgot to change utica to factory BTW.

Grayarea

Nov 18, 2004, 03:16 PM

1 KA
2 Gray - Just played
3 Sir Ortin - Playing next
4 Alex top - Get ready
5 Matternich

King Alexander

Nov 18, 2004, 03:43 PM

Good job Grayarea.

It's good that we have 2 coals!!!

Here's some points:

1) Change Utica to factory, RUSH it(it completes in 2 turns, but rush it anyway), and railroad Utica's terrain ASAP(the tiles that are worked).
Take the workers from Hippo and Carthage, so you railroad Utica's tiles faster.

2) Greece will pay WM + 1g + 36gpt for our Wool + Ivory, so take it: Greece is in war many turns and will pay so much gpt because it probably has serious unhappiness issues.

3) Check the science slider every turn to see when we'll be able to drop it a bit, but we'd learn Medicine in the same turns as before.

4) When Babylon agrees for Peace, take it.

5) Don't connect our cities through the mountains but through the grassland and the hills. We can railroad everything later.
And remember to railroad first the tiles our citizens work.

6) Change Carthage, Rome and Theveste to factory: wait first for Carthage and Rome to pruduce the workers they build.

7) 1 musketman goes for the unoccupied hill, 2 tiles west from where he is(there're 2 muskets on that tile). Take him there, and, PLEASE, DO NOT MOVE OUR OCCUPATION UNITS from where they are, so no other civ will try to land and settle there.

They can "see" the mountains and the nearby area, so we don't need to have other units in the mountains.

8) Upgrade our maskets fortified in cities to Riflemen(only 20g each with Leo's).

We can build a couple more cavalries/canons, but we almost have the military we want to protect ourselves, and now, with the rails, we don't need to produce many more units.

Matternich

Nov 18, 2004, 04:47 PM

@Gray area

USuff is abbreviation of Universal Suffrage.

You should have given Bab's what they wanted. Not so much that it prevents Dip victory its just that they could pay us good cash for tech, and a map and 73 gold is pittance (especially now economies are growing) in comparison to what we will miss by being at war. I don't think they would have declared war on us anyway especially as they're are closer to weaker opponents for them to pick on. A good way to measure if a civ will declare after a demand is refused, is to check their military. Is it stronger? and by how much? Not to worry. If we can pick off a couple of their troops or possibly send a few caravels their way they might go for a quick peace. If not it could be a while before they agree to sign.

On the plus side we are now at peace with Greece who will help fund our research once they also become buyers of our new tech, as and when it is learnt.

.

Sir_Ortin

Nov 19, 2004, 12:57 AM

Got the game, will play tonight.

Grayarea

Nov 19, 2004, 02:29 AM

In my diplomatic screen I don't have icons for Germany or the kelts?

I really only noticed this last night when I was selling indust around. How do I fix this?

BTW Rome and Theveste have rails on all worked tiles now, I am moving the workers up towards carthage.

That doubled up musket is on the way to the empty square in the mountain region. I moved the worker as the musket will be there next turn.

King Alexander

Nov 19, 2004, 08:35 AM

Grayarea: about the icons, I don't know if there's a way to fix this in Vanilla Civ.
I check it from the trade advisor(F2?) screen, where you can see how many luxuries you have, what you currently trade, etc... In the right, where you see the names of the other civs, if you click the name "Germany" you'll talk with them.

As for the musketman, I don't know where you send him, but we must occupy the hill-tile, so no one can try to land and settle there.

AlanH

Nov 19, 2004, 11:17 AM

[/lurk]
@Grayarea:

The images that show up in the F4 Diplo screen are stored in the folder \Art\Advisors\, and the software tracks them down by reading a file called pediaicons.txt in the \Text\ folder.

The Keltoi image is special to GOTMs, so it's conceivable that this is missing if you haven't installed the GOTM mods correctly, but I suspect there would be more problems than this if so. If you want to check the image file is \Art\Advisors\BR_all.pcx.

The German image is part of the standard out-of-the-box installation, so it's unlikely that this is missing from your setup. It's at \Art\Advisers\BS_all.pcx if you want to check.

So the more likely problem is that your pediaicons.txt file is corrupt or incorrect. Here's a copy of the pediaicons.txt file I use and distribute with the Mac installers. It *should* be good for all GOTM and non-GOTM games in vanilla CivIII. Find your Civilization III\Text\ folder, rename pediaicons.txt to, say, pediaicons_old.txt and then put a copy of my version in its place.

HTH

Matternich

Nov 19, 2004, 12:14 PM

@ Gray area

At the bottom right of the screen (along the right hand edge of the information box) there is a vertical row of 3 or 4 small letters.
Click the letter D and all available civs can be contacted via the pop up.

The diplo screen was buggy on the last vanilla SGOTM. Its annoying mainly because there's no other way to tell what civs have trade embarogs or mil alliances.

AlanH

Nov 19, 2004, 12:34 PM

The diplo screen was buggy on the last vanilla SGOTM. Its annoying mainly because there's no other way to tell what civs have trade embarogs or mil alliances.
Actually, if you get the right files in place it works fine.

Matternich

Nov 20, 2004, 06:05 AM

@AlanH - true, but last SGOTM was a 'standalone'.
And what happens when there are more civs than can fit in the circle?
I hope Civ 4 addresses the limitations of the current dip screen.

Shouldn't grumble really- the civfanatic GOTM upgrades have given my humble vanilla 1.29 a new lease of life. Now if only I could play a single player with the new civs I'd be laughing. :lol: like this. :lol:

Sir_Ortin

Nov 20, 2004, 06:10 AM

1550(0) Change Carthage to build Factory (in 10 turns). Change Rome to build Factory (in 8 turns). Change Theveste to build Factory (in 8 turns). Change Utica to build Factory (in 2 turns) and rush it (208g). Replace Hoplite with Cavalry on terrain, move Hoplites into cities for upgrade. Traded with Persia for 30gpt our Ivory. Traded with Greece for 1g and 17 gpt our Wool.
IBT: Keltoi demanded Industrialization. Ha-ha. I refused. He promised that he will return. :)

1555(1) Utica build factory, start CoalPlant. Traded world map everywhere.

1560(2) Utica rushed CoalPlant (~450g). Traded with Greece for 121g and 17gpt our Ivory. Traded with Keltoi for 17g and 11gpt our SteamPower.

1565(3) Germany and Babylon signed a trade embargo against us. :( Utica built CoalPlant, start UniversalSuffrage (12 turns, 68 spt).

1570(4) -
IBT: Germany and Greece signed a Mutual Protection Pact. Germany declared war on the Persians.

1575(5) Traded with Vikings for 15g and 8gpt our Theory of Gravity. Traded with Germany for 102g and 7gpt our Industrialization.

1580(6) Babylon landed 1 Longbowman. Killed him and damaged his ships. Make peace with Babylon. Traded with babylon for 68g and 20gpt for our Industrialization.

1585(7) We discover Medicine, start Electricity. Theveste build factory, start Coal Plant.
IBT: It seems that new world war has began.

1590(8) Rome build factory, start CoalPlant. Traded with Ottomans for 49g and 4gpt our Industrialization.

1595(9) Carthage build factory, start CoalPlant. Percia learned Electricity, we need 7 more turns to learn it.

1600(10) Traded with Ottomans for 14g and 8gpt our Medicine. Traded with German for 1g and 15gpt our Medicine.

One more question - we have 5 banks and still are not able to build a WallStreet? Or we just need to build 5 Stock Exchanges?