I have just finished and submitted my first try at a HoF :
I went for fastest 20k culture win
Chieftain, Babylonians, Tiny, 2 opponents, :after 10 hours, won in 1525 AD, faster than all 20k in HoF
Babylon was doing 164 culture per turn at that point, including 21 GW.

I chose to do 20k because those are rather short games where there are not too many things to micromanage.
What your main city does is crucial, every shield every culture point, but the other cities can be handled semi-seriously (up to a point)

I started by reading both articles in the War Academy, and made up a few ideas of my own.
I will try my strategies at Warlord and Regent next, and I'm pretty confident a similar or even earlier date is possible at those levels, since I made many mistakes in my game.

Here is my timeline, with some of my ideas thrown in and some question (feel free to comment anything, Im very open to suggestions for my future games.)

My main idea was to try to maximise the possible appearance of Scientific Great Leaders.
So I'm trying to discover as many techs myself as fast as possible before the AIs.
So I need a scientific civ.
The second choice was between religious, agricultural, and indistrious.
Agri is the least useful of these, as it is easy to max the pop using workers from other cities.
Indistrious offered faster worker and a bit of extra shield, but its pretty easy to maximise shield production , just need more worker.
Allows for production of the temple from the start, and it is cheaper (in my game I build the temple in 5 turns) which is very important, helps with the cathedral a bit and reduces anarchy
So I chose the Babs.

Ok so I chose Tiny, pangea 60 %, sedentary barbs, default temperature, climate and age...

Im open to playing around with some of these settings.

1.Barbs are a bit useful. A these low difficulties, you get mostly goodies, but tech arn't that great since Im trying to research them. I'll probably remove barbs at some higher setting, maybe regent or monarch.

2.Pangea seems like the easiest choice, although at higher setting I might go archipelago to slow down the AIs.

3. Does anybody have a rather precise link or ressource pointing to the effects of climate and temperature and age, or comments on good choices?

Now I wanted to discover as many techs as possible.
So I wanted the Ais to share as many techs with me and among them as possible, so I can discover more before them.
I chose Celts and Sumerian (Rel, Agr), (Rel, Sci) . So they both start with one tech I have (cere and bronze) and share the other one. Which means If I rush the others I should be able to get a chance of a GL on them.
I put least aggresive although Im not sure how big a difference it is on chieftain :)

I chose my Capital as my 20 K cities.
The pros : no corruption, palace culture, and you can start earlier

The cons : harder to start the empire, maybe less than ideal location, harder to prebuild without palace

All the cons arent so bad at low difficulty levels, the empire is not a problem, neither are the prebuilds.

In the game I did ( I wasnt using map finder, I cant make it work still working on that) I was in the middle of grassland including a cow and lots of bonus shields, a couple of forest, one desert one mountain, one floodplain, almost all terrain next to rivers. No coast though.

Im not sure about coast yet.
In my previous games I always had coast, and it gives the Colossus a very good culture wonder, and later Magellan. But you get slightly lower shield output in the industrial age I would think.
Im still not sure if its better to be on the coast or not.

Here is my list of builds (the numbers on the right are total culture in city) with comments :

4000 palace
3450 temple
3400 14
3150 settler
3000 get GLeader from masonry

This is when I knew this would be a great game. Got a Great Leader on my 2nd tech, to get pyramids, which is a great culture wonder, would reach the 1000 year old mark real quick and would also help the other cities.

2950 pyramids
2430 138
1600 oracle
1575 430
1475 library

I still need to practice my hand on rushing the non-wonder buildings (library, col, cath, university)
Usually I guess library will be pop-rushed while the others will be money rushed.
I was maintining a break neck tech rate specially at start so sometimes I didnt have as much money and lost a few turns, I will work on that.
I also made a mistake around this time and worked the floodplain when I didn't need to, and my pop dropped a few points.
I switched to Republic around this time not sure when exactly.

1450 523
975 HG 947
490 GLib + golden age 1502
450 cathedral
330 mausoleum
290 BC colosseum 1887
90 AD ToA
110 AD 2767
380 shakespeare
Shakespeare is just magic, the second best culture per shield after statue of zeus (which I wasnt able to get early in this game from lack of ivory.) and allows to reach past 12

400 university
410 4006
420
Babylon reaches size 20 where is works all terrain for a total of 30 prod
470 SoZ
490 4465
610 Newton
630 5524
660 factory 5860
720 copernicys
730 bab size 20 70 prod 6468
750 coal plant 94 prod

You can see I still lack a lot of experience, I didnt even know you could build a coal plant same time as factory, as I have almost never played till the industrial age... so lost a few turns here too
Babylon now has 94 prod which it will keep for the rest of the game
760 6744
820 Sistine
830 7394
880 get GLeader from music theory
Second great Leader, much less useful at this point but not complaining
890 Js Bach 7982
900 Univ suffrage
950 I automated workers at this point as the AIs where mostly dead and whatever happened in the rest of the empire wasnt important, I could get a tech every 4 turn with lots of cash
970 Theory of Evol
990 9064
I made lots of other small mistakes, For example i didnt know you couldnt build a wonder after it expired, I also didnt know you needed coast for magellan , its not even stated in the civilopedia.
Im learning a lot thats why I expect to do an earlier time in warlord.
1040 Adam Smith
1080 Wall Street
1090 10191
Halfway there!!
1120 got Mil Leader
That was actually part of my plan, to get Military Leaders to open up some good culture wonders (heroic epic for example) and maybe rush a few others, I was only able to get one though since in chieftain its hard for the AI to make armies, and I used it to make an army to get heroic epic which had a very good culture/shield ratio at this point
1150 Sun Tzu
1180 heroic epic
1250 leonardo
1310 UN
1315 research lab
1345 Apollo
1400 internet
1455 seti
1480 mil academy
1490 get Gleader from fascim
The third Gleader, just for show at this point
1495 cure for cancer
1520 intelligence agency + victory(1525)


The best wonders in the game for culture are in ancient and medieval age.
Statue of Zeus, Colossus and Great Library in the Ancient Age, with Hanging Garden and Oracle following.
Shakespeare and Newton, with also Sistine, Js Bach and Copernicus following.
the non wonder buildings are also key to plan:
the temple at start, but its very important to plan to make the library coll, cath, university in one turn each with cash rush if possible.


Some small wonders are also not bad
Heroic Epic, Wall Street, Iron Works.

If you have any comments please feel welcome.

Im going to try to make map finder work and try my hand at warlord.

Never tried a cultural win in speed, so I guess a "good work" is in place.
All in all, the HoF starts to be a place full of highs.. :crazyeye:

Congrats!!

Well done! Generally in C3C it's harder to speed up the Wonders using great leaders. In PtW it's that bit easier to war your way to GLs. :) I'm curious to see how well this works in the higher levels, where it takes some amount of time before you get a tech lead. You'd need some really early 'pruning' and/or possibly archipelago map, like you say.

I have started working on fastest 20k, and wasn't sure where to start. I had been trying the Arabs, because I didn't realize there was a distinction between research and discover. But 0 SGLs in a number of starts where I discovered all but the bottom techs first. My confusion stemmed from my first Conquests game, where I popped Philosophy from a hut, got whatever tech is was that I was working on and got a SGL. Of course, that being my first game, I had no idea why anything of those things other the getting a tech from a hut had happened (didn't do enough pre-game manual reading I guess).

But after reading your game log and figuring out the SGL thing, I don't know that the Babylonians can be matched for 20k on Cheiftan and Warlord. The AI will research enough on Regent that maybe there is a better option than the Babs, but I am still undecided. And I think on Monarch and Emperor, I will still go with the Arabs. Getting a second settler in 3950 BC is of huge value, as it allows the second city to be founded relatively quickly or means the capital never has to concern it self with building a settler. I also have found that while SGLs are pretty much out of the question, the Pyramids, Oracle, Great Library and Hanging Gardens are attainable on Emperor. And I think in the future all the top 20k games will have to have had the SoZ, because it is just too valuable culturally.

I dont mind setting the odds on my side, but I think playing PTW or Vanilla just to use the Leaders would be past my point.
Everybody has their own limits as all the HOF threads show...

Im still not sure about wheter a coastal start is better or not...
Up to size 12, that is until Shakespear, theres really no problem, but past that you get 2 (food+shields) per square (the total number of food + shield per square is what is mostly important, as in almost all cases you can transform shield in food and vice versa one to tone). Compared to at least 3 for almost any terrain, and at least 4 for good terrain, (flood plain, shield grassland and most bonus terrain).
Once you get Railroad its even worse, although its slightly better once you get offshore platform.

The advantage of Coastal is you get access to the Colossus, the Lighthouse and MAgellan.

the colossus is very critical in my current setup as I will explain :
I did some test and the enemy civs research techs in this order, if they dont meet anyone or get a hut (this is very basic research I might be wrong but it seems about right) :
Sumer (start with Bronze, Pottery)
Warrior Code, The Wheel, Ceremonial Burial
Celts : (start with Pottery, Ceremonial Burial)
Bronze Working, Warrior Code, The Wheel,
Then both : Iron Working, Masonry, Mysticism, Horseback Riding, Alphabet, Writing
So that means, that apart from Pottery which they start with and I dont,
By researching Warrior Code, The Wheel and Iron Working They have to research 4 techs to be on par with me.
The problem is of course that I dont get a wonder tech until Masonry, and I did a few try and thats too late since by that time you have build a temple, a settler and any prebuild you have is finished (a barrack say).
You need a wonder tech by the 4th probably.
That means either varying my research path a bith by researching masonry or mysticism earlier, but then risking losing the race to IW for example, or trying a coastal start.

In my last game I didnt have a coastal start.
My analysis is this : almost all important building are built by the time you build Shakespeare.
For example in my game, Only 2 wonders were built after Shakespeare which reached the 1000 year limit, so most important culture producing buildings are built in a time where coastal isnt really any worse, and so having the advantage of the Colossus and the Great Lighthouse would be good.
(as I said, the colossus has culture/shield 66.6 which is the best after SoZ, and can be built from start, and the Great Lighthouse, while one of the worse of the Ancient Age, is still pretty good compared to most Wonders at 150 culture/shield)
So Im going to try for a coastal start thsi time.

But after reading your game log and figuring out the SGL thing, I don't know that the Babylonians can be matched for 20k on Cheiftan and Warlord. The AI will research enough on Regent that maybe there is a better option than the Babs, but I am still undecided. And I think on Monarch and Emperor, I will still go with the Arabs. Getting a second settler in 3950 BC is of huge value, as it allows the second city to be founded relatively quickly or means the capital never has to concern it self with building a settler. I also have found that while SGLs are pretty much out of the question, the Pyramids, Oracle, Great Library and Hanging Gardens are attainable on Emperor. And I think in the future all the top 20k games will have to have had the SoZ, because it is just too valuable culturally.

you are right that the Soz is great, its the best Wonder in terms of culture/shield and its effect is great also.
What do u mean about a settler in 3950, do you mean with a hut?
In a good start, building the settler makes you lose about 6-7 turns (im counting shield + city reduction approx), which would be good to avoid of course, but you need to build a warrior which is maybe 1-2 turns and count on a lot of luck.
It did happen in one of my test games, but specially as the level of difficulty rises, it becomes rarer and more dangerous to wait for founding that second city, which is sort of the capital of the rest of your empire...

With expanionist Arabs, you don't need the warrior. You get a free scout. And the Arabs are valuable on higher levels because expanionist helps to make up for that fact that you are neglecting almost completely your expansion. In almost all of the emperor games I have played thus far as the arabs, I have gotten a settler in the first 1500 years, and in about a quarter I have gotten a settler in the first 500.

Forgot to mention, I just finished trying out your method. Played about an hour and half before realizing I would miss your mark by about 15 turns, give or take a couple. Used a coastal position, which was made up for production wise with four hills and two food bonuses which allowed more mining, plus there were only four coastal tiles. With Colossus, Copernicus, and Newtons and all the tourist attractions, I had 500ish beakers per turn, which was pretty nice. But I never bothered at any point to build a settler, which was a huge problem because that meant one worker. And even with four cultural expansions, no resources of any type in my borders. So no SoZ.

I think you need a Settler, specially as you increase in level
You get, more workers to improve the land way faster + join city at critical phase (from 9-12 and right when u get shakespeare to 12-20ish), and eventually clean up pollution.
bu building cities, You increase chance of ressources so you can get ivory for Soz and Iron for railroad, you can get units, to get more huts, and eventually harrass the computers and produce leaders even maybe.

even though the capital is crazy research wise, you need a bit of cash to rush the improvements at the start of the middle age, and thats easier with other cities.
Of course at Chieftain its perfectly doable with one city, but the 15 turn difference might be a reason...

I agree completely, I think that was the reason. Though I didn't get a pre 3000 SGL, I did manage one around 2000 BC and got two more in the Middle Ages. I actually had no problem cash rushing the improvements, and you are right about the resources. It might actually have been easier had the level been higher, because at least I would have been able to trade with the computer, and they would have found me on a tiny map before 1000 BC. The worker adding thing is also critical, and wondered if it might be overcome to a degree by two food bonuses and never wasting time with a settler, which I think wastes more the 6-7 turns. But I was wrong, and it took me too long to get to that critical 20spt.

I am having great fun testing at Warlord BTW this is the best fun Ive had in a while with CIV.Im currently at 110 BC, 2020 culture +56 /turn, which is about on par with my previous game but at Warlord.
The main difference I would say is its a bit harder to get a big tech lead on the computer, and I actually didn't help my case too much when I think back on it.
Its actually funny because I wasnt planning on playing this through, I had an avergae start, but got two GL in the ancient age (dont forget Im first to all techs except 2 in this game, so that gives me a bit more chance, although that was still lucky but one in the ancient age is almost expected with this strategy.)

Think about it this way.
Even with two food bonus which might get you to 4 or 5 extra food if you do go to low on shields, going from 9-12 will take you at least 15 turns or so, while it takes me 1, and from 12 to 20 maybe 1 or 2. Where it will take you what? 50 or 60?
the few turns lost on the settlers are worth it thats for sure.
The case of getting a settler from huts has to be studied though thats not a bad idea, ill think about it.
Other cities ARE needed though thats for sure.

I checked the odds of settler and cities for expansionist civs :
15\10 at chieftain warlord
13.3\13.3 at regent
15.4\7.4
so for expansionnist the odds are around 1: 7 to get a settler
For non expansionnist the odds are :
15\5
10\10
10\5
so actually the odds arent much lower
ONe thing not to forget is that to get a settler you have to have less cities than the average. Im not sure if it includes less or equal if not that would mean you cant get a settler from a hut until someone has founded a 2nd city.

You might want to try building 1-3 warriors with capital instead of a settler.
Its shorter than a settler if you count pop reduction, its almost as efficient as a scout for scouting (im sayin 2-3 warrior compared to 1 scout) , can be used as MP if needed and can disturb the AIs by pillaging stealing workers etc.
Im not sure expansionist is worth the loss of religious with that alternative in mind.
Just the non-anarchy save 2-7 turns depending on difficulty level...

Btw Im not sure if anyone can help, but map finder seems tohave problems restarting civ 3, as it does the number of iteration before that, and then stops...
any clues?

I checked the odds of settler and cities for expansionist civs :
15\10 at chieftain warlord
13.3\13.3 at regent
15.4\7.4


Where did you get these numbers from??

One thing not to forget is that to get a settler you have to have less cities than the average. Im not sure if it includes less or equal if not that would mean you cant get a settler from a hut until someone has founded a 2nd city.

It is less or equal - I'm sure + tested. :)
You must not also have an active settler at ther time.
I think (this one I'm not sure) that you must not have any military unit yet, too.

map finder seems tohave problems restarting civ 3, as it does the number of iteration before that, and then stops...

Happens to me too on half of the occasions.
If I try to double click something afterwards, it usually doesn't work too, so I restart.. :(

I dont mind setting the odds on my side, but I think playing PTW or Vanilla just to use the Leaders would be past my point.


Well, I didn't mean you should play PtW, although it maybe sounded that way. It's just that I haven't tried a 20k in C3C yet, so my only experience with that type of game is in PtW. :)

I think (this one I'm not sure) that you must not have any military unit yet, too.

the "miltary thing" relating to hut popping as that as a non-expansionist civ you won't get barbarians if you have no military units (including boats). I am almost sure you can get settlers after building military.


edit:
How rude of me...congratulations on the very early 20K win, LulThyme! :)

Where did you get these numbers from??

Probably here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=93244).

It is less or equal - I'm sure + tested. :)
You must not also have an active settler at ther time.


Also, you must not be producing a settler (which is, of course, easy enough to do by simply changing your production before you pop the hut and then changing it back after.)

Where did you get these numbers from??



It is less or equal - I'm sure + tested. :)
You must not also have an active settler at ther time.
I think (this one I'm not sure) that you must not have any military unit yet, too.



Happens to me too on half of the occasions.
If I try to double click something afterwards, it usually doesn't work too, so I restart.. :(

Well that makes the popping hut strategy a bit more viable...
The more I think about it the less I like the idea.
The settler could come a long time to come, and could be pretty far.
I build a temple then a settler, and then my city produces a granary (if I didnt rush pyramids as in my two games) and then like 4 workers, to improve and rush the capital to 12 full producing squares as fast as possible.

I think by that time the city as already paid for itself.
I think I may actually run a few test twice on each map, with and without building settlers, at my current diff (warlord) just to get a quick idea.

As I was saying, I did this backwards in a way. Instead of starting at Chieftan, I have been starting on Emperor and considering moving down.

And in maybe 10-12 decent starts (cumulative numbers):

2 by 3950 BC had Settlers
3-4 by 3500 BC had Settlers
5 by 3000 BC had Settlers
7-8 by 2500 BC had Settlers
10-11 by 2000 BC had Settlers
All by 1500 BC had Settlers

Plus, the Arabs are Religious so the anarchy thing is not an issue. I don't think there is any debate on Religious being a must for 20k. But I am definitely undecided on the second trait, and the best probably changes by level.

You are right about the slow growth without workers feeding in. As I said, it was a bit of an experiment and wasn't intended as a serious game. So no argument on the necessity of joining workers.

Those numbers actually impress me!
I didnt do any tries but I would have though them much worse.
You almost convince me.
In my game the settler was out in 3150, that about standard I would say, maybe on average a bit later.
I still think it's not worth wasting a trait.
You should be able to get the same effect as a scout with 2 warriors wasting about
The two good traits you can replace expansionnist trait with is Scientific and Industrial.
Industrial gets you a bit more shield in the capital, and faster speed for worker. Your other cities should be producing so many workers, the speed should not matter except for before 2800 BC.
Scientific gives easier Lib and Uni, the free techs, and BETTER CHANCE OF GL.

My choice is definetly Scientifc over Industrial.
I also think Scientific is better than Expansionist, at least for easy difficiculties when you can discover most techs yourself and get a good chance of GLs.
Im going to stick with the Babs for Regent.
Then Ill try some alternatives strategy at Regent and see.

Just finished my Warlord game , and shaved 3 turns off my Chieftain win!
Here is a very brief timeline, I will add some comments later.
I dont have many details because I didn't actually expect to finish this one, but 2 ancient Great Leaders made me change my mind.
3950 Palace 556
3400 Temple 1064
1830 Colossus 1329
1790 Pyramids 1760
1175 Oracle 1552
1100 Library 1143
590 Great Library 1968
570 Temple Of Artemis 1300
510 Colosseum 632
390 Mausoleum 596
370 Cathedral 885
170 BC Hanging Gardens 1060
130 BC University 1036
350 AD Sistine 1032
560 AD Shakespeare 960
710 Newton 630
850 Copernicus 364
870 Universal Suffrage 356
940 Js Bach 492
990 Magellan 231
1070 Smith 207
1140 Theory of Evolution 186
1220 Leonardo 108
1255 Wall Street 100
1305 Hoover Dam 80
1335 Battlefield Medecine 34
1340 Research Lab 66
1370 Apollo 54
1375 United Nations 104
1425 Manhattan 32
1485 Internet 16
154 culture/turn in babylon (the numbers are the culture accumulated in each building in 1505)
1510 : victory : 8h43, 1824 points

Scientific Great Leaders in : (its easy to see what they were used for by looking at the timeline)
2310 BC
610 BC
850 AD
1350 AD

I had a coastal start, and Ive decided this is way better.
The possibility of the colosus greatly outweight the slightly smaller production after Shakespeare and especially Railroads.
For example having 3 coastal squares loses 3 shield per turn after shakespear, and 6 after railroad.
AS you can see, a very small percentage of the total culture is made by buildings after that, and the Colossus greatly helps a lot at the start.
In terms of difficulty, the main thing was it took a bit longer to get rid of the AIs tech wise.
I wasnt able to get a mil great leader this time, though I didnt try that much, won maybe 10-15 elite battles. That was enough to totally kill one of the AIs, which is why its hard to produce mil leaders at very low diff.
I played my other cities very badly.
After switching to Repu, i had way too many workers and hadnt made enough cities so I was having trouble with my economy.
It was partly because I was playing fast because I didnt expect to finish it (thats why it only took 8 hours) and partly because I need to practice more :)

I noticed a few games ago that contrary to civ 2, a wonder becomes obsolete only when the owner has the tech.
I dont know why I didnt notice before.
I think it doesnt make sense, and it opens many abuse (for example the Great Library ones in a lot of the Deity games).

Im now ready for my Regent games.
I will think a bit about some adjustements I need to make and test I need to make
-not building a settler and hope for huts or keep my actual plan
-test the start build
-huts or no huts
-keep or change opponents
-keep or change civ (babs)
-this one is still a major question for me, what about the map?
Can any of you see big differences in this type of game for different amouts of water, and also for the temperature and climate.
I dont even know really how it affects terrain.
Anyway I ll think about it and come back.

Oh yeah as you notice I wasnt able to build the Soz as I didnt have ivory (it was by an ennemies capital.
Great Wall and Great Lighthouse were also build by ennemies.

1510!!! Very impressive.
I have only limited experience of 20 k wins having completed only two, both on low levels and not especially quickly (~1850 and 2050). It seems to me that on "higher" levels, since you're not going for large growth yourself, you might be best off choosing a cold and dry world in order to stunt the AI growth (don't have agricultural opponents either). I think a younger world will be less favourable for big growth too. Of course "dry" means fewer rivers ergo less commerce but if you check enough maps...

Thats exactly the kind of idea I was looking for.
As you go for higher levels, as long as you capital as a good location, you want the rest of the world to be a barren wasteland as much as possible.
So cold and dry is good for that he?
I'll give it a try.

It seems SGL's are crtical in fast wins. In my 20k chiefton game, I had no SGL's even with a Sci cic (was Sumer), I also had Ivory. The earlier the SGL, the better.

Yes of course SGL's are critical the earlier the better.
Being scientific is one part, but you have to play to increase your chances.
On a tiny map at chieftain, you should be able to research ALL techs except your starting ones and an extra one before the aI (its important to choose to AIs and know their research pattern for this) , this increases your chances a lot.
Ivory is great though.

My Regent game is at 360 AD with 4270 culture compare with 4006 in 410 AD in the Chieftain one!
I will beat my Warlord date by a lot!!
The game went incredebly well...
I will post more when it's done :)

Lulthyme, Are you trying to do in 20K what I'm trying to do with conquest?
Conquer the HOF???
If so, Good Luck.
If not, Great Leader..

Actually, yes..
I know I can go up to emperor, Im not sure how good Ill fare past that.
I would have to adapt my strategies A LOT, for emperor +.
I might go back to my easier setting and try the other map sizes small and such to fill in although in a 20 K game the map size isnt that important.

Unlike chess, civ has MANY options, so we work opportunisticlly with some short and long term strategies.
I've noticed these change from setting to setting.
Even if I replace a AI civ, I have to adept.
Also, inside the game, things vary a lot.

Sid and Deity could be nice for 20K.
Build a few cities... and defend.
Also take "least aggressive" setting, and don't take any AI that starts with archers or spearman at those levels.. they could fight each other, and they could fight you. ;)

Success!

Of course I am going to try emperor and above, Im just not too optimistic...
Now, I just finished my Regent and it was INCREDIBLE.
I was just way too lucky with the Great Leaders.
Now of course my current strategy revolves around them and I think the AIs only discovered 2 or 3 techs before me.
And I always restart if I dont one Great Leader before Great Library (about 10-12 techs the way I do it).
But get this :
I got a Great Leader in 10 BC, near the start of the Middle Age.
IT WAS MY FOURTH
yes I got a total of 6 Great Leaders in this game, 4 of them very early.
Here is my timeline :
Regent:
tiny pangea, no huts, 80% water, spain and india, cold and wet (I know dry would have slowed them more, but I wanted to increase chance of river) 5 millions years

3950 BC Palace
3400 BC Temple
3100 BC Settler
2800 BC Ninevh founded
2150 BC Great Leader
1830 BC Colossus + Great Leader
1790 BC Pyramids
1525 BC meet spain
1400 BC size 10, 15 prod, 24 commerce 378
1175 BC Oracle, meet Indians 495
1150 BC Great Library, Golden Age
1125 BC Get Mathematics, Iron Working from GL
1100 BC Library
850 BC Mausolleum
710 BC 1013
670 BC Golden Age ends
650 BC Great Leader
610 BC Statue of Zeus 1188
590 BC Revolution Starts
570 BC Republic Begins
450 BC Cathedral
430 BC Sistine 1464
290 BC Colosseum 1800
10 BC Great Leader
260 AD Temple of Artemis 3480
270 AD Shakespeare Theatre
290 AD University 3703
310 AD Babylon is at 23 prod
360 AD 4270
470 AD Copernicus
600 AD 6383
650 AD Newton
720 AD Factory 7603
740 AD Coal Plant 7815
750 AD Babylon size 15, 68 prod
760 AD Great Leader
770 AD Universal Suffrage
860 AD Js Bach 9123
920 AD Magellan
940 AD 10000+
1010 AD Theory of Evolution
1060 AD Wall Street 11500
1150 AD Smith Trading 12616
1170 AD Great Leader
1180 AD Hoover Dam 12997
1260 AD Sun Tzu
1335 AD United Nations 16323
1340 AD Offshore Platform
1345 AD Harbor
1380 AD Apollo Program 17682
1385 AD Nuclear Plant
1420 AD Leonardo
1425 AD Research Lab (duh)
1450 AD 157 culture per turn, 20 GWs 19846
1455 AD Victory , 13 hours, 2669 points 20003!!

I chose spain and india because they both start with the same techs, and their research pattern suits my needs.
The starting position was good but nothing extraordinary.
River+on the coast (well not really I had to move to get it) + 1 cow.
Thats about the minimum I'll consider playing.
Ninevh was founded on some grapes in about average time.
I got a great Leader before finishing colossus which is great because I use it to get Pyramids.
On the turn I got Colossus I discovered a tech (cant remember which) which gave me another Great Leader before I even had used the other ones.
I knew then this game would be great, and probably be a record setter.
I decided to keep the second for Great Library, so to rush that tech (at that point I usually dont have alphabet yet , as it is not priority since the ais have it.)
I built the Oracle while researching for Litterature, and met both my rivals.
There were both pretty close (how far can u be on tiny pangea max water?)
and were not as advanced as expected, the cold and dry was a good idea, Ill probably throw in 3 million years in my next game.
After the Oracle I rushed the GL, but I had forgotten that triggers my GA (it always does, but usually I switch to republic before, but having 2 leader made me forget this.) This was a big plan, I just forgot. In the end Im not sure it made that big a diff, because delaying building Great library would have been bad culture wise.
Anyway , the Great library gave me math and construction, and I used the GA to build the Mausoleum and a Library.
At that point I knew I had ivory close enough so that my 3 city could claim it (very close in fact 5-6 moves from capital, I tell you this game was great), which is very good.
Then just as my GA ended, I got my third Great Leader.
I hesitated in building ToA right then, or waiting for Sistine, I opted for Sistine.
I built SoZ, did a revolution.
I was lucky I got monotheism as my tech for Middle Ages.
I built the Cathedral while getting Theology and rushed Sistine.
At this time I had a short war with the Spanish with ended up with them getting a city razed.
There was a big marsh separating us, and that city was on my side, so we were very isolated from one another after that, but the Indians were right next to me, so I was getting ready to attack them.
Attacking the AIs is important if you are stronger than them, to stop\slow their wonder building and their tech pace, although in this game they never reached past the start of the middle ages in any case.
I built a colosseum, and started on ToA.
AND GOT ANOTHER LEADER
I decided to keep this one for Shakespeare, so I rushed the techs while ToA was building and got Shakespeare in 270 AD!!
By that time I already had 5 wonders and 2 buildings doing double culture!!
I maxed Babylon, which wasnt much, since there were lot of water tiles, but such is life. The highest it could go was 23 shields, without rails.
Somewhere in this time the Indians got wiped out, netting me a few extra luxury but not leader again in this game with about 15 elite wins. I think Im going to go slower to kill the Ais in my next game and concentrate on creating a Leader. I also took half the Spanish, but was close to dom at this point (actually had to reload once because of dom near end even though I was being sort of careful)
I built University, Copernicus and Newton.
It went a bit wrong entering the Industrial Age.
I got Nationalism instead of Rails, so I lost 4 turns, and then the coal was in some jungle, and played a bit badly, and made my workers lose another 2 turns before railling Babylon.
Rushed a factory and coal plant, Bab now at 68 prod.
Had just started on Js Bach, when I got my 5th leader, decided it was better to rush Suffrage and build Bach after.
Magellan, than got 10k culture.

The rest was just waiting basically although I still built a lot of stuff, including another Leader-rushed Hoover Dam, and I forgot totally about the Research LAb until the end, and for a while I thought i would make me lose a turn, but it turned out I was jsut BARELY ok.
The research lab could have been rushed about 20 turns earlier so cost about 40 culture ( abit less since eacht building after that would have lost a turn) but in any case that wouldnt have changed the date.

Barely made it in 1455 AD !!! on turn 281 (JUST past halfway of the game)
with 20003 culture at 157 culture per turn
2669 measly points :)
So this is 14 turns before my chieftain win and 11 before my warlord win, AND ITS GOING TO BE VERY HARD TO BEAT :)
Of course a lot of luck is involved but I like to think there is also some skill :) and I also play to maximise my luck.
Every detail of the game is chosen to maximise my chances.
I can attach my save for any of the games if anyone is interested.

Now Im off to Monarch.
I dont expect to do as well, and will have to recheck my research order.
The best\only score submitted yet is 1768 though so I should be able to beat it.
My goal is sub 1600.
Im expecting the AIs to steal few techs and a few wonders.
Although if I split the research with them smartly, the tech pace might end up going faster which is not necesseraly a bad thing, as long as I keep them from wonder building.
Well see...

BTW mapfinder works very irregurlary for me so I mostly quickstart 40-50 times.
A lot of maps the mapfinder wouldnt find are actually playable.
The last one for example didnt start with a coast but moving the worker on the cow revealed it.

Congrats on your greatest win so far!! :cool:
The AI can be totally abused techwise, but then you don't know what they're up to build..

Mapfinder has some bugs, but when it finally runs for hours, it brings great relief.
I could found 200 maps where 100 were found, but I'll have to spend days restarting.. ;)

BTW, you know that mapsize determines also the tech rate..
I'm really having fun with the Aztec! 95 maps to check.

Yes I know that mapsize is part of the equation for tech rate, which is one reason I play on tiny, as I want the quickest tech rate possible.

Yes Im following closely your conquests :)

Here is my Monarch win.
To contrast with the previous game, I got NO other leader than on at the start. And this isnt because I was beaten to the techs, my strategy worked very well tech wise, I guess it was just the RNG getting its revenge for last game :)
I still finished in 1535 AD, two turns after my chieftain game.
It wasnt bad in itself, the starting positoin was good, cow + river + coast (but very little ocean in the city radius) and ivory very close by.
There also was iron in the capital radius which was a nice bonus.
With an extra ancient age leader, I would have saved 4-8 turns at least.
I played very agressively with the computers and totaly kicked their asses with ancient cavalry and swordman, replaced quickly by med infantry.
On tiny maps it is vert easy to do ressource denial , as ressources are very rare.
So they were out of iron very quickly and never recoverd.
They never went past the first 4-5 techs in the middle age.
Monarch :tiny pangea no huts, 80% water, dry, cold, 5 millions, arabs and celts, least aggresive
3950 Palace
3350 Great Leader
3300 Temple
2900 Settlers
2750 Pyramids
2630 Ninevh
2510 meet arabs
1650 Colossus
1175 Bab size 12, 18 prod
1100 Oracle
1050 Library
800 Statue of Zeus
690 revolution starts
650 Republic
310 Great Library triggers golden age
270 Cathedral
230 Colosseum
30 bc Hanging Garden
30 ad University
90 ad golden age ends
350 AD shakespeare, bab 26 prod
510 AD Copernicus
670 AD Newton
700 AD Factory
710 AD Coal Plant
720 AD 82 prod
790 AD Sistine
870 AD Js Bach
920 AD Magellan
1000 AD Theory of Evolution
1080 AD Smith
1120 AD Wall Street
1220 AD Universal Suffrage
1275 AD Sun Tzu
1290 AD Research Lab
1350 AD United Nations
1380 AD Apollo
1430 AD The Internet
1460 AD Leonardo
1465 AD Offshore
1470 AD Manufacturing Plant
1500 AD Hoover Dam
1515 AD Int Agency
1535 AD Victory, 138 prod, 156 culture per turn, 20 GW, 20034 culture
7 hours, 3411 points

Emperor, here I come :)

OK I did a few trial run on Emperor, and the going is tough at start.
I read a few articles on how the AI choose tech.
I will try another India, Spain game.
They are both Religious, and Commercial and Seafaring, which are not too outstanding mods for the AI.
They both start with Alphabet and Ceremonial Burial.
So they have nothing to trade if they meet (the units they start with combined with the small size of the map means they meet very early).
They will usually research Bronze, then warrior code.
And then either writing, the wheel or writing.
I should be able to be first to warrior code and the wheel, then pottery and mysticism (which are 4 of the cheapest techs of the ancient age) or maybe switch the last two.
I will try to see how many turns it takes them to research tech usually and try to sell them the tech right before they discover them for gold and techs.
This seems to be the best way to maximise my chances of an early Leader.
I also noticed my capital has to take a small break before starting on the Colossus for 1 or 2 warriors to help with policing.
Its the biggest jump since Ive started this project, its a whole new game.
Im confident I can suceed though.

Where can you see which tech is cheaper??
It's one of the main things I lack (but for ancient age, I know their relative price from practice..).

Also, trade slaves (which direction you feel like).
Scarre them into the capital for receiving slaves for peace, and put them in yours if you really need some tech or money.
Why am I suggesting.. you probably know this.. I just love to sell warrior code to different AI for different techs + slaves + gold.

I dont know why I didnt think about this or why nobody told me :)
But I finally decided to switch to archipelago maps.
And I chose the mongols and zulus.
While they are aggresive, their traits suck on this kind of map.

I chose a map I liked, (cow and 2 wheats in city radius, lake and coast!)
I was on a small island with only one luxury but that was expected.
on 2310 the zulus were destroyed, im guessing by a volcano :)
So it was only me and the mongols
In 1750 I got the colossus and in 1150 the Oracle.
I switch to republic, everything was going well.
I met the mongols, they were on island next to me.
They about equal number of population , over greater territory of course.
And they were backwards in tech compared to me, maybe 3 techs up 5 others down.
in 590 the Great library triggered my golden age,
which allowed me to do a library, the mausolleum and in 250 BC , the lighthouse, which killed the only project the mongols were able to do, since they didnt have masonry!! or polytheism yet.
So everything was going great. I was still about 2-3 techs in front of them and nearing the middle ages. I also noticed they didnt have horses, which was great news, so I quickly colonized the islands were I saw horses.
Then in 10 BC, lots of mongols ships came close, and a swordman went next to one of my luxury colonie (which was building a harbor slowly).
I knew they would attack.
So I traded their last tech and all their money for gpt deal, and they accepted!
So I thought they might not attack, but prepared for the onslaught in any case by building 2 bowmen.
I had a small iron problem.
I had iron on my island, but I got iron working very late, and it would onyl be connected in about 2 turns.
Furthermore, they had sneakily built a city on a hill by very crappy terrain which I had had to skip over (only hills and desert, so couldnt grow past 2) for now.
That city cut my island in two, so only 2 size 2 cities would have acces to the iron until I retake that city.
My initial plan was to culture take it (since it was so close to my capital and on my home island, and the capital in a 20 K game is CRAZY at culture flipping :) )
eventually, but now it was more urgent.The lack or iron proved to be fatal I think.
Also I didnt stop whatever my capital was producing to make armies.
That was a chance I took because I thought, either I get a good win or I restart, I didnt want a middle position.
In any case that left 2 size 3 cities on each side of my capital to produce more bowman.
The mongols dropped about 2 units per turn, including a swordman on the 3rd turn.
They all dropped on hills next to my capital and had spearmans so I couldnt counter.
If I had swords I could have counter attacked for sure.
The swordman got lucky attacking (i had a 3 health fort bowman in a size 12 city) and lose only 1 health and got promoted.
I lost my capital the next turn and TOTAL utter chaos ensued.
all my cities went in disorder from lost of hanging garden
The final drop in the water was my last 2 ships sank because they were at sea and I lost the Lighthouse.
ITs sad cuz it was a great game, but it thought me a lesson and that last turn was just magic, like a scene from a history book of an empire crumbling so bad that even all the ships sink :)

Ill just have to be a bit more careful about the transition between expanding, and building some units.
Its a bit troublesome in Republic, because im always tempted to not go over my unit limit which is very low. (like 9 near the end of that game)
The maps are great though.
Tiny archipelago with least land, dry and cold, 5 millions years makes for some very crappy terrain (lol the zulus even died by themselves in this one at emperor level even) which the ais have more trouble overcoming than I.
specially mil and exp, they have no bonus at all.
Im hoping the next one will be the one :)

Well I just started a new game and actually computed the tech cost of all techs in the ancient age... Im usually too lazy to look up such info but not lazy enough to do it myself :)
for example in tiny emperor, pottery ceremonial burial are 40 , wc bw are 60 etc....
up to republic which is 560

can you tell me more about this slave trade?
i know having slaves of the other country is suppose to protect you or something but Ive never taken advantage of this (feature?) and I would like more details if you can.

Well I just started a new game and actually computed the tech cost of all techs in the ancient age... Im usually too lazy to look up such info but not lazy enough to do it myself :)
for example in tiny emperor, pottery ceremonial burial are 40 , wc bw are 60 etc....
up to republic which is 560

can you tell me more about this slave trade?
i know having slaves of the other country is suppose to protect you or something but Ive never taken advantage of this (feature?) and I would like more details if you can.

But... how did you get these numbers, and what's their meaning? research tubes? I have to have it!!!

Slaves do not "protect" you, but act as half-workers.
They are of no cost, but can be traded only if they are in the capital.

When I want slaves and about to make peace, I usually send some unit to threat their capital.
At the end of turn, you will see a few AI workers running towards their capital so not to be caught.
Then, when you talk peace, you can also ask for slaves.
I do it early on, and sometimes gain up to 4-5 slaves, when all I have is a measly 4-5 size little-infrastructure city.

[...]
When I want slaves and about to make peace, I usually send some unit to threat their capital.
At the end of turn, you will see a few AI workers running towards their capital so not to be caught.
Then, when you talk peace, you can also ask for slaves.
I do it early on, and sometimes gain up to 4-5 slaves, when all I have is a measly 4-5 size little-infrastructure city.

Cute trick! :thumbsup:

Ha ok I got it, yeah I knew about that of course, never thought of actually threatening the capital to make the workers go inside.
This plain works well, assuming you have the power to threaten the capital and have something to put on the bargaining table...

But... how did you get these numbers, and what's their meaning? research tubes? I have to have it!!!



Yes they are the amount of research tubes needed to get the tech if you dont know anybody who has it.
to get them, just make sure you are producing a nice round number of beakers, say 10, and check how many turns it takes to discover the tech, multiply et voila.
They probably are in an edit file somewhere but as I said, im sort of old style for most of these things.
Ive stop using map finder, and Im back to quick starting hundreds of time :)

I finished my emperor game in 1700.
It was much harder than the others.
here is the timeline with comments

emperor, tiny archipelago max water, cold, dry, 5 million, mongols, zulu
as you can see it the map was basically a wasteland.
tons of desert , tundra, hills...
lots of small island with nothing but hills and tundra.
This slowed me down but the AIs even more.
Im not sure this was the best idea, maybe an archipelago with better terrainn would have allowed to research faster and get the good wonders and leaders earlier... i dont know
I also got only one leader at the end of middle ages , even though I researched all tech except maybe 8 before the AIs (which sucked MAJOR ass)

3950 palace
3500 temple
3400 warrior
3300 warrior
3100 masonry
3000 settlers
2800 ninevh founded
2470 mysticism
2430 ninevh builds worker
1910 alphabet
1830 colossus

Thats a very good start compared to most of my trials, the tech pace is great...
1525 writing
1225 oracle code of laws
1125 babylon size 11, 18 prod
1050 philo\repu
1025 revolution starts
1000 ashur founded
975 republic
875 litterature
800 babylon size 12 24 prod
710 polytheism
690 Great Library, GA, pottery
pottery is the first tech i copy from the ais as I havnt met them yet so havnt been able to trade. all the others I know that they have from their research paths.
650 meet zulus, library
610 meet mongols , get wheel, warrior code, iron working, map making, horseback riding
490 mathematics
470 great lighthouse, kills mongol project, zulus switch to pyramids
410 currency
290 monarchy, hanging gardens, at this point they were fighting each other
i had no luxuries yet, and in fact ALL luxuries but one were on their starting islands!!! (including ivory so no SOZ for me)
They were wasting most of their ressources fighting each other.
230 zulus finish pyramids, establish embassy
190 ROP with zulus, + 36 gold for 3 gpt, +18 gold for 1 gpt with mongols
150 constrcution, get monotheism free, still at war, none horses
130 mausolleum
90 cathedral
10 colosseum
at this point i noticed the zulus were having their ass kicked, had already lost their capital
170 ad mongols destroy zulus :(
360 ad sistine
560 temple of artemis
630 printing press, great leader, mongols finish statue of zeus
680 great wall killing mongol project
i was trading with the mongols a lot, to try prevent a war which worked until about 10 turns to the end
700 sistine chapel
860 copernicus
1040 shakespeare
1200 newton
1280 10k +
1315 magellan
1335 mongols complete sun tzu
1345 factory
1350 university (i had totally forgotten about building this one :) )
1355 harbor
1365 coal plant
1370 bab size 20, 74 prod
1410 smith trading
1470 universal suffrage
1515 leonardo
1560 theory of evolution
1630 mongols sneak attack
1660 research lab
1700 victory, 133 culture per turn, 6 hours 2870 points

this game represents well the main thing to balance in 20k games.
In this game the world was very desolate.
It was an advantage in the sense that the AIs were very weak, so unable to build wonders (thye only built pyramids, and SOZ because I wasnt able to) and present to much of a military threat.
It also slows me down, and at some point I didnt have any wonders to build, (for example in late industrial age) because I wasnt able to keep the tech pace fast enough.
Reaching the end of middle age and beggining of industrial age as fast as possible is a key in 20k because thats were all the important stuff.
Newton, Copernicus, Shakespeare, factory coal plant, railroads in about 7 or 8 techs.

Im not sure what my next game will be.
I could try to move up to demigod i guess.
Or try to redo chieftain et al with small maps instead.
I dont know.
I feel like Im nearly over my paygrade.
Im not used to playing at these levels , I won very rarely at demi god, and am not used at all to the techniques to handle the ais, make them not attack and such.

I feel like Im nearly over my paygrade.
Im not used to playing at these levels , I won very rarely at demi god, and am not used at all to the techniques to handle the ais, make them not attack and such.

Man, that's not the way to go!
Try, see how it DOES work, and improve.
You are human, but so are the rest of them ;) (not me, I deny humanity, I'm a boo).

Yeah Ill probably try demigod at some point.
I also want to go back to chieftain to try for an absolute best time using my improved techniques since my first try, and try beat 1400 or something.
I also want to try small maps, and maybe 100 K cultural (about those, Im very lazy, but the actual number to reach depends on size of maps or something no?)
So much civ to play, so little time...

Well, I'm goin' to be bed now, so I won't say much, except here's the save before the last turn of the chieftain 20k I just played. 1390AD.

Why not submit it for the HoF?

Oh, I probably will, but there's really no rush ;)

Very nice!
Is it CSC or PTW?
I also have a chieftain game going on, beating my regent time, not sure yet but dont think it will beat your time.

I just checked, CSC very nice.
From the building dates, Im guessing 2 or even 3 early great leaders
one for pyramids one for colossus and maybe one for great library.
Not even any special terrain in the start very impressive.
I didnt even think of using civil engineers to transform any extra ocean squares in shield near the end. Not thats its a big difference but could be.
Its nice to have some competition :)
My main question would be if you were using huts?
I would guess not since you chose an expansionnist civ as an opponent.

I just checked, CSC very nice.
From the building dates, Im guessing 2 or even 3 early great leaders
one for pyramids one for colossus and maybe one for great library.

Yes, I believe, three at the beginning and 8 altogether.

Not even any special terrain in the start very impressive.
I didnt even think of using civil engineers to transform any extra ocean squares in shield near the end. Not thats its a big difference but could be.
Its nice to have some competition :)
My main question would be if you were using huts?

No, I don't think huts would be too useful, at least at chieftain, where I'm trying to get all the techs myself. Note that I missed out on ToA completely because, apparently, you can't build an obsolete wonder.

Yes thats actually part of my new strategy...
I usually try to time ToA right before I discover the tech for it.
In the short run its a bit slower, but in the long run its better I think.
Its not really a lot worse than the best choice at that point ususally which is usually Sistine.
600 for 6 instead of 500 for 4.

damn 8 Gl
and I thought I was lucky with my 5 he he

Yeah i think ill try no huts next time.
It will allow greater choice of AIs as I can pick Expansionnists one.
What was the justification between your ai choice?
was it russia and sumer?
POttery and BW.
Why BW?

It was Russia and Arabia, actually. Both expansionist, for a couple reasons. First and foremost, I want them to discover me quickly, so I know what techs to research at the beginning. Second, it's a fairly useless trait on a tiny map with no huts. One is rel., and the other is sci. so that their starting techs either match each other or mine, so there's only one extra tech that I definitely can't research first.

But having different techs , wouldnt that improve their chance of trading, especially since they will meet early?
ceremonial burial in particular is not discovered too quickly by the ais.
not in the first 2-3 techs for sure.
Bronze working will probably be first priority for the one who doesnt have it...

Oh yeah and another thing?
when did you switch to republic?
(if you did, I didnt actually check but seems a fair assumption)

Switched to Republic ASAP. I think it was while I was building the GLib, got a SGL from Republic, rushed the GLib and went into anarchy.

But having different techs , wouldnt that improve their chance of trading, especially since they will meet early?
ceremonial burial in particular is not discovered too quickly by the ais.
not in the first 2-3 techs for sure.
Bronze working will probably be first priority for the one who doesnt have it...

You may be right, though in my particular game I don't think they met until I eventually traded contact to them, as I my location is kinda the link between the two parts of the continent. I found that they both researched WC first, followed by the wheel, masonry and alphabet.

Ok so did you research wc wheel masonry and alphabet before going for the republic techs?
I assume yes thats what Ive been doing and it worked the best...

I didn't go for WC or wheel, I took masonry first and alphabet second, then math. because Ivory was so near by.

so your idea basically was quicker to republic the best...
ill have to think about it.
you lose on very early opportunities for Leaders, but you gain a quicker pace afterwards...

Also because WC and wheel aren't very valuable, other than as SGL bait. I think I was able to grab every other tech in the game aside from poly. Also, given this is a HOF attempt, I'm really looking for the 'best possible' game, not what will generally yield the best results, if you see the distinction I'm making. I'll be more likely toget 3 early SGLs if I grab WC and the wheel, but a) I won't have use for them because I will nearly have finished the Collossus by then and b)won't have any other wonders available. No, IMO, the 'best possible' would be the unlikely event where I beeline (sorta, still pick up IW, math. and myst. first) for republic AND get 3 early SGLs, like I did, and hopefully build the cheap wonders by hand in the meantime and use the SGLs, ideally, on GLib, Pyramids and ToA.

I understand what you mean by best possibple in opposition to the average best.
How long did you play your games till a restart?
Like what was your breakoff point to say a certain game wouldnt make it.
I use to restart if I didnt get a Great Leader before Great Library.
In my current game (which I havnt finished yet but I think will be 4-5 turns behind yours) I got two before Great Library.
I think I will have to raise the bar to three to have a chance :)

Lots of very good ideas BTW... Thanks a lot

If masonry (my first tech) wasn't a SGL, I restarted, assuming I played that far. I was looking for a fresh water AND coastal start, first off, as well as at least 1 forest and two hills, for production. Next, I want ivory close by, one city away, tops. Then the SGLs come in.

Yeah even before your last post, I have been thinking about what you mean by going for a best game, and I was thinking that I would research masonry first and restart if no GL.
That way you get Pyramids before starting on Colossus.
Coastal and fresh water is a given.
Im surprised you went for hills and forest, while I would usually go for a cow or something like that.
Of course its rarer, but restarting with playing one turn or less is not very costly.
And the initial boost is a big difference, and the long term boost is almost as good, specially in the sub 12 pop time, which is the crucial one.

I think on my next start Ill do something similar.
I think being a bit lax with ivory isnt so bad.
All the rest of your empire can be dedicaded to connecting the ivory anyway so it shouldnt be too long, rush build harbors or whatever if needed.


One more question :
In your strategy , as opposed to mine, huts would seem even better.
Since you are researching republic very fast, there is very little very early tech overlap with the AIs.
Getting a tech from a hut doesnt really prevent a leader, usually just changes a tech you will research to another although usually a bit costier.
Now the disadvantage is of course that if you cant handle 4 turns on the techs, then it slows you "tech discovered yourself" a little bit.
The advantage is quicker research pace overall, which is a bonus, as the AI doestn build anything, and there are a couple of key wonders that are quite far away, namely Newton and Shakespeare, with Railroad, factories and coal plant right behind.

Im still undecided on the huts issue.
Im very busy with RL these days so havnt been able to put in practice anything Ive talked about since your game, but Im very anxious to try it out :)

Anyway lots of great ideas, a lot of which Im a bit sad I didnt think about before , but I guess having no competition didnt make me very agressive, while you had a score to beat so you had to adapt the play.
This is fun!!

Im surprised you went for hills and forest, while I would usually go for a cow or something like that. Of course its rarer, but restarting with playing one turn or less is not very costly.

Well, in the long run, hills and forest are going to help me more. I mean a cow doesn't hurt, but for my general strategy, it's not much better than a BG, which I will generally get ~3 of given my overall criteria for a start. My city mostly grows through workers, as my building city prioritizes production (hence the forest, for the early game, and which can also reduce your library cost by 25%. This brings me to a point which I can't remember if it has been suggested, but ACs a really useful for disbanding, too. I bought my Library for two ACs and a pop point in that game, and most of a factory later.) Also, I played a similar game out pretty far earlier, and only ended up disbanding it when I decided that without hills I simply couldn't get the production I needed.

I think being a bit lax with ivory isnt so bad.
All the rest of your empire can be dedicaded to connecting the ivory anyway so it shouldnt be too long, rush build harbors or whatever if needed.

I don't have a 'rest of the empire' quickly enough for me. Getting to SoZ capability early means the best quick culture you can get inbetween the early SGLs. Also, at that stage of the game that SoZ can double ridiculously early, and can arguably be more useful than getting the ToA as well (which I missed out on) and then the SoZ later.


One more question :
In your strategy , as opposed to mine, huts would seem even better.
Since you are researching republic very fast, there is very little very early tech overlap with the AIs.
Getting a tech from a hut doesnt really prevent a leader, usually just changes a tech you will research to another although usually a bit costier.
Now the disadvantage is of course that if you cant handle 4 turns on the techs, then it slows you "tech discovered yourself" a little bit.
The advantage is quicker research pace overall, which is a bonus, as the AI doestn build anything, and there are a couple of key wonders that are quite far away, namely Newton and Shakespeare, with Railroad, factories and coal plant right behind.

Im still undecided on the huts issue.
Im very busy with RL these days so havnt been able to put in practice anything Ive talked about since your game, but Im very anxious to try it out :)

Yes, huts are a hard call, but I still believe, at the lower levels, they're better off. It may not prevent any SGLs directly, but it can do so easily by the other civs gaining key techs early and preventing SGLs (alphabet and masonry, for example). Also, I don't think the potential rewards are worth this risk, and it also makes the expansionist trait less viable to give one's opponents, and I do really like the Arabs and Russians.

Anyway lots of great ideas, a lot of which Im a bit sad I didnt think about before , but I guess having no competition didnt make me very agressive, while you had a score to beat so you had to adapt the play.
This is fun!!

I agree:). In fact, in reference to the game I mentioned above where I played fairly deep into it, I discarded the game because I could see your log on your 1525 victory, and realized that I would not get Shakespeares until about ten turns after you, and then quit when I didn't receive an SGL before about five turns before I would have built it.

Well, in the long run, hills and forest are going to help me more. I mean a cow doesn't hurt, but for my general strategy, it's not much better than a BG, which I will generally get ~3 of given my overall criteria for a start. My city mostly grows through workers, as my building city prioritizes production (hence the forest, for the early game, and which can also reduce your library cost by 25%. This brings me to a point which I can't remember if it has been suggested, but ACs a really useful for disbanding, too. I bought my Library for two ACs and a pop point in that game, and most of a factory later.) Also, I played a similar game out pretty far earlier, and only ended up disbanding it when I decided that without hills I simply couldn't get the production I needed.



I don't have a 'rest of the empire' quickly enough for me. Getting to SoZ capability early means the best quick culture you can get inbetween the early SGLs. Also, at that stage of the game that SoZ can double ridiculously early, and can arguably be more useful than getting the ToA as well (which I missed out on) and then the SoZ later.


Yes, huts are a hard call, but I still believe, at the lower levels, they're better off. It may not prevent any SGLs directly, but it can do so easily by the other civs gaining key techs early and preventing SGLs (alphabet and masonry, for example). Also, I don't think the potential rewards are worth this risk, and it also makes the expansionist trait less viable to give one's opponents, and I do really like the Arabs and Russians.

Well the thing is, until youre stuck at under 12, and even after to a point, its the SUM of food and shield from each square thats important, as each food can be transformed on a one to one basis in shields most of the time, directly with civil engineers later, and even before that by mining a terrain that would have been irrigated. Of course if you have just grassland for example, and no hills at all then this doesnt work, but just 1 or 2 forest, hills, plains, makes this approach viable and balance the cow.

I think very early, favorizing growth is important.
Suppose youre like me and you produce the settler right after the temple, and build the city right outside the borders in the closest food area.
Then by the time the worker arrives back at my capital, with a cow its usually size 6 and my initial worker is a bit late on mining, so usually I go up to about 4 workers to finish improving 12 tiles the way I want them and use them to boost from 9-12 or something.
and as long as you have SG, or worked plains\grassland or better, every pop point is like an extra shield...

Anyway thats my point but I havnt done extensive testing.
Ill think Ill test a few starts, going for growth and going for shield and see which ones finished Colossus first for example.

Yeah AC's are great for disbanding.
Its been mentionned in many others threads, for example the one about wonders, but youre the first one to mention it as part of a 20K strategy.
The thing is in your plan (and mine also) you switch to republic very early.
The only two buildings I can rush under despotism are Temple and SOMETIMES the library.
The others, I usually somewhat manage to get enough cash without slowing too much or at all my tech pace.
I know by the time Im at factory, I can usually rush it in one turn, (using the two tricks : disband or buy a worker for initial shields, and substract your production from shield cost, and buy up to that if possible).
Even university and Cathedral arnt usually a problem because of reduced cost, from sci rel, only the colosseum I lose a turn sometimes because Its a bit early and havnt got so much cash.
I think Ill watch my cash a bit more in my next games for that, and an earlier switch to repu will help also.

On the ivory thing, I agree that it helps alot, but I think it makes less difference than an extra Great Leader near the start obviously.
The next best thing after Colossus and Great Library (which should be rushed) is the Oracle, which you have the tech for, which is 4 culture for 300 shields, as opposed to 4 culture for 200 for SoZ.
Of course SoZ is better, but this difference isnt worth a restart for me.


Youve actually convinced me on huts, and I have a new line of attack that I will explain after Ive played a full game with, and it involves (NEEDS) expansionist civs , so of course no huts.
If I could make mapstat work it would take less time, but we'll see how it goes.

Well the thing is, until youre stuck at under 12, and even after to a point, its the SUM of food and shield from each square thats important, as each food can be transformed on a one to one basis in shields most of the time, directly with civil engineers later, and even before that by mining a terrain that would have been irrigated. Of course if you have just grassland for example, and no hills at all then this doesnt work, but just 1 or 2 forest, hills, plains, makes this approach viable and balance the cow.

I think very early, favorizing growth is important.
Suppose youre like me and you produce the settler right after the temple, and build the city right outside the borders in the closest food area.
Then by the time the worker arrives back at my capital, with a cow its usually size 6 and my initial worker is a bit late on mining, so usually I go up to about 4 workers to finish improving 12 tiles the way I want them and use them to boost from 9-12 or something.
and as long as you have SG, or worked plains\grassland or better, every pop point is like an extra shield...

Anyway thats my point but I havnt done extensive testing.
Ill think Ill test a few starts, going for growth and going for shield and see which ones finished Colossus first for example.

I certainly don't disagree with you. Food is important. I too build my settler immediately after my temple. When my city is <6, I grow it at two surplus fpt. However, I think grow my city via workers more than you do. My second city produces nothing but workers and two warriors until my main city is size 12. I also only keep two workers improving around my main city, meaning two extra pop points in comparison. Typically, my city is size two, post settler. In general, it grows every five turns, and will do so three times before hitting size 7. My second city likely produces two food and two shields, meaning growth will take ten turns for the first pop point, so I build a warrior in five turns and then a worker in five turns. Now its granary is full, so it grows every five turns, lining up perfectly with its build rate. It then produces two workers after the last one, or three total. The first improves land around my main city, the next two are pop for that city. My city is now size 6. During this time, while my city makes the last <6 (ie. ten food) growth, City 2 produces its second and last warrior (the max MP) and also grows 1 pop. It now produces 4 workers at four turns each (production is now 3), slowly going back down to size 1 permanence as it still only grows every five turns. Mean while, at size 7, City 1 needs 30 food right now to grow, and 20 food from here on out. Even at 3 fpt (ie. with cow), it will take 10 turns to grow one pop, while my other city is growing pop for City 1 every four turns. Thus, I drop surplus food to 1 fpt and use the one forest, thus ensuring one growth in 30 turns, while it receives four workers in the mean time, pushing it to size eleven. Assuming I don't still have extra SG lying around, having 1 pop on a forest or two pop on two unSG (mined) is no different. My pop will still grow soon, at which point I will have at least one hill mined if I don't have a second forest.

The only two buildings I can rush under despotism are Temple and SOMETIMES the library.

Really? I never have trouble rushing my library. Two ACs and one pop point (Mix Master Mike, whatcha got to say?:))

On the ivory thing, I agree that it helps alot, but I think it makes less difference than an extra Great Leader near the start obviously.

Yes, but, again, I'm looking for the 'best' start, where both happen ;).

The next best thing after Colossus and Great Library (which should be rushed) is the Oracle, which you have the tech for, which is 4 culture for 300 shields, as opposed to 4 culture for 200 for SoZ.
Of course SoZ is better, but this difference isnt worth a restart for me.

In my game, however, I was able to build all of these wonders very early. Had the SoZ not been available, I would not have been able to build a wonder between two of the early wonders, as ToA would have taken too long (and may not have been available, I can't remember) Great Wall was unavailable, I think GLight was unavailable, but in any case, either wouldn't have been half as good as SoZ. Pyramids, Oracle and Collossus are already built and can't do the GLib yet, I believe. IN general, if you're getting enough SGLs as I think you need (three), being able to build a few of the cheaper wonders without interupting your SGL rushes by more than a turn or two is a real plus.

Yeah I think we agree , my question would have been more precisely : on a mostly grassland some of them bonus, couple forest couple plains a few hills whatever AND A COW, would you mine or irrigate the cow.
I tried both in a 2 cow start and the irrigation ended up finishing colossus a turn earlier, and researching much faster.
Thats not conclusive but...
I havnt been building a granary in my 2nd city and that might have been a mistake.
The thing usually is that with cows irrigated, my main city can grow to 8-9 and by that time the second city has built about 4 workers total which together with the other one have finished improving the needed 12 tiles and then join in the city to make 12.
More extensive testing would be needed to verify which is best in most settings.

I think I wasnt very clear about what I mean by what I can rush under despotism.
What I mean was those are the only two buildings that I need to rush under despotism, because the others Im in republic... :)


Of course you want the ivory and Great Leaders.
But say you had the choice bewteen 2 early leaders and ivory and one leader
or 3 early leaders and ivory and 2 leaders...
or 4 leaders and ivory in 3 leaders...

Anyway, all of this is just talking...
I have to try and get a game started.
Ive actually done many starts, but mapstart wont restart conquest for me , and by hand is long, although Im confident Ill be able to get a game that starts like I want with a week or two...

Yeah I think we agree , my question would have been more precisely : on a mostly grassland some of them bonus, couple forest couple plains a few hills whatever AND A COW, would you mine or irrigate the cow.
I tried both in a 2 cow start and the irrigation ended up finishing colossus a turn earlier, and researching much faster.
Thats not conclusive but...

I would irrigate at first, probably.

I havnt been building a granary in my 2nd city and that might have been a mistake.

The Pyramids do that ;)

The thing usually is that with cows irrigated, my main city can grow to 8-9 and by that time the second city has built about 4 workers total which together with the other one have finished improving the needed 12 tiles and then join in the city to make 12.
More extensive testing would be needed to verify which is best in most settings.

It's interesting how we both get the same result by two fairly different means. I think it would be hard to gauge which is faster by discussion like this. Playing out a few different maps both ways would probably the only method and even that wouldn't be perfect.

I think I wasnt very clear about what I mean by what I can rush under despotism.
What I mean was those are the only two buildings that I need to rush under despotism, because the others Im in republic... :)

oic.

Of course you want the ivory and Great Leaders.
But say you had the choice bewteen 2 early leaders and ivory and one leader
or 3 early leaders and ivory and 2 leaders...
or 4 leaders and ivory in 3 leaders...

But you don't have that choice per se. Besides, I think I would pick Ivory + 3 leaders over 4 leaders. As I explained above, I had trouble finding wonders to build. I had one occasion where I had three SGLs sitting in my city, though I did use one immediately. There was another occasion where I got a SGL with either Mono. or Theo. that I had planned to save for Shakespeares, but then got one with edu. and sidetracked for JS Bach's (and lost all opportunity for ToA). As you can see, I had already run out of high culture wonders to build with SGLs up until Newton's, really. During this time I probably built the Great Wall or Lighthouse or maybe both. Sure, extra SGLs would have helped here, but they would not have had the impact of the 2000BC SoZ. Another reason for such an early SoZ is to generate ACs nice and early. This allows early contact, which fortunately had already happened in my game, but happens surprisingly little with two expansionist opponents on a tiny pangaea map. It's also useful for scouting out the continent for resources, MP and having extras for disbanding.

I'm curious about what settings you would try with MapFinder. I originally wanted to do HoF games just to have a good reason to use MapFinder (it seemed a novel idea) but generally had trouble finding settings loose enough to get maps but not such loose standards that I'd get low quality maps. And there are a number of different tile settings that work okay, but it is hard to find settings that would save all of those maps.

Edited to change to right Civilization utility

Actually I have problems with this also...
you want at least 1 river and 1 coastal, and probably 1 food bonus...
You can restrict marshes and desert maybe I dont know...

Yeah, river coast and bad tile restriction were the best I could do. But I didn't like adding food bonus because that often eliminated good maps.

Here is my latest game.
Chieftain win on 1355 AD.
I used a few trick from punkbass, and took my time and really optimized everything.
I wasnt even particulary lucky.
I restarted until I got a Great Leader on masonry as first tech.
Bad points :
I ended up not getting any other until the start of the Middle Age :(, so I had to hand build Great Library
I didnt even have a river, just a lake !! so no hoover dam, but mainly a bit lower trade at start.
The good points :
Had a cow, and 2 ivory right next.
I think this was sort of an important thing, as they are not a bad bonus, plus this allowed me to build SoZ instead of Colossus right at the start.
Its better culture wise, and the cavalries helped me trash the neighbors, explore and rush things.
I took Portugal and Hittities.
My idea was this, they are both Expansionnist and start with Alphabet.
My goal was to research masonry and if necessary mysticism and by that time I will have met them (I did lots of trial and in tiny maps, 2 expansionist meet you before this time over 90% of the time).
I then trade for Alphabet, and go on to Writing.
Now my initial idea was to go for philo, litterature and if no 2nd great leader restart, following punkbass's idea. But when I actually tried it out, I remembered that would trigger the GA in despotism...
In my game I had to detour through mathematics, to build Soz Very early and I decided to go for Repu before litterature. I'll have to think more on this issue.

chieftain : tiny pangea, no huts, wet , hot, 5 million, max water water , ai :portugal and hittites
3950 palace
3450 temple
3300 masonry gives great leader
3150 settlers 28
3100 pyramids
2900 ninevh founded, meet portugal, give masonry and ceremonial burial for alphabet and $$
2800 mysticism 76
2390 meet hittites, get wheel warrior code, pottery and $$ for masonry and CB
2230 mathematics 198
2150 SoZ 218
1830 writing 354
1675 colossus 444
1575 code of laws 528
1550 bab size 12, 19 prod, attack hittites, they give wokrer, iron working and horseback riding
1475 philo\repu 612
1425 end of revolution 22 shields
1325 litterature 717
1250 oracle 780
1225 library
I was really kicking the Ais ass with extra early cavalry.
At this point I had eliminated both AIS and noticed they restarted, so I must have had respawn AI on. I talked to them, and when they restart they have an extra worker and 100 gold each, which I traded for peace.
I thought this was an exploit and I could do this many times, but they only seem to respawn once.
In any case all this fighting gave me some experience and I got a military leader much later in the game, which opened heroic epic.
1200 polytheism 833
1100 construction
1050 1000+
1000 destroyed portugueuse for the 2nd time so they didnt respawn
900 currency 1220
750 monotheism\Gl triggers GA 1380 I waited as much as possible to build GL for a Leader but I decided this was a good game and didnt want to take chances
730 cathedral
690 colosseum 1500
610 theology 1681
570 mausoleum
250 great leader FINALLY, free Sistine
230 temple of artemis 2894
210 Sistine Chapel
190 bc University My experience with these games has improved a lot, and I rushed all non wonder in 1 turn except coal in 2 I think. I start collecting money much earlier, and getting workers ready before shakespeare and industrialization...
210 ad shakespeare
230 ad bab at 29 prod 4171
290 ad produce military leader
340 hanging garden 5022
410 heroic epic 5666
460 great leader
510 great leader wish those had been in ancient age, but I wont spit on them
560 newton 7132
570 Js Bach, 44 prod 7236
580 harbor had some spare time until i got industrialization for US which i wanted to rush, got unlucky and got medecine at start of industrial age
600 Universal Suffrage
620 factory 7794
630 Coal plant
680 Copernicus 8478
730 Magellan 9068
800 Theory of Evolution 9933
870 Smith 10895
880 Great Leader I only had 3 wonders i could build for a while, so I decided to rush modern age and keep this one for it
940 Sun Tzu 11882
980 Wall Street 12454 My tech pace was staying behind my wonder building, It took me a long time to have a spare tech to get stock exchanges...
1050 Leonardo 13469
1070 Commercial Dock 13763 at this points im out of wonders, and im rusing modern age
1090 Marketplace 14057
1120 Research Lab 14498 build this one on the same turn i enter modern age, got lucky
1130 Seti Program 14647
1250 United Nations 16503
1280 Apollo Program 17487
1285 Nuclear Plant 17653
1335 The Internet 19313
1355 Victory 5h41 minutes, 20005 culture, 1029 points, 174 culture per turn, 22 GWs

I will submit this one.

Actually the best thing about this game is I wasnt that lucky.
It was a bit better than average start, and then the masonry Great Leader.
Its very fast to do restarts after the first tech.
So the good news is I think most of the techniques applied here will work VERY WELL till monarch, as Im not even competing for techs with the AI as in my previous strategy.
I think sub 1400 up to monarch will be pretty easy.
Thanks for all the comments here, and especially punkbass who provided a few key insights for this game.

There is a zip file with the 4000 and 1350 save for those interested...

I have played a few more games.
Nothing exceptionnal but among them a 1415 warlord victory and a 1575 demigod victory.
The warlord one had a masonry great leader and a currency one, but the production side was lacking.
The demigod one was a great starting position but almost no great leaders.
Construction and Theory of Gravity leaders, but 2 cows and a wheat in initial radius.
I chose horrible map setting and the AIs were on islands with no fresh water and mostly hills.
They were in early middle ages when I won.
So this show that even without Great Leader a pretty early 20K victory is not so hard.
I can post saves and timelines if anybody cares.
I''ll try deity now.

I care ;).

I'm not currently running any 20k games, I currently focused on a 60k game which is taking a lot more MM and otherwise more time than I'd anticipated.

Congratulations on the Demigod date! You ought to post those saves, and even some screenshots. If you don't know how, there are directions in the SG forum. But it always interesting to see what sort of terrain you were working with.

By the way, I am considering restarting my efforts. First, I need to compile a list of dates to beat. With no update, hard to keep track. Reading both your efforts has forced me to completely revamp my strategy, especially since it hinged on an incorrect assumption on my part, that being that popping techs from huts gave SGLs. But it certainly will be more interesting, since there is stiffer competition for best dates than originally anticipated when I first condsidered this endeavor a few months ago.

Well its fun to see that people are interested.
Here are the timelines and saves.

Warlord tiny pangea, most water (to make computers and ressources close), no barbs, portugal and hittites
3900 palace
3400 temple
3200 masonry triggers leader
3000 pyramids 34
2110 mathematics 214
1830 Statue of Zeus 300
1425 Colossus 570
1300 size 12, 19 prod
1100 Mausoleum triggers GA 801
1050 Library
975 Currency gets GL
800 Oracle
775 Great Library 1145
750 Cathedral
690 Colosseum 1314
570 Get Military Leader 1584
210 Temple of Artemis 2424
170 University 2528
90 AD Great Leader
110 AD Heroic Epic
130 AD Shakespeare 3421
330 AD Hanging Gardens 4565
520 Newton 6313
530 Harbor
570 34 prod 6803
590 Factory
610 Coal Plant, 68 prod 7195
670 Copernicus
760 Sistine Chapel
850 Js Bach
910 Magellan 10437
960 Wall Street
1050 ToE 12205
1140 Smith
1240 Leonardo 14845
1250 Research Lab
1255 Nuclear Plant
1305 Universal Suffrage 16631
1335 Apollo 17553
1415 victory score :1978

demigod : zulus and mongols, on archipelage, 3million, dry , arid
4000 palace
3500 temple 10
3200 settlers 28
3000 Ninevh founded 40
2710 Masonry 64
2150 colossus 136
1910 Mysticism 190
1600 Alphabet 280
1475 Oracle 325
1300 Writing 416
1225 bab size 12, 22 prod
1025 code of laws, meet mongols
975 Pyramids 606
875 Philo\republic\revolt 686
825 Bab at 24 prod
730 bab at 25 prod 766
710 Mausoleum\litt\GA 786
690 Library
630 Mathematics, meet zulus
550 Map Making 983
470 Great Library 1083
450 Construction triggers Leader get warrior code and Hb from GL
410 Colosseum
210 Great Lighthouse 1588 kills mongol project
190 Temple of Artemis 1597
170 BC Cathedral
70 AD Hanging Gardens
280 Great Wall 2848
300 University 2962
460 Copernicus 3999
640 Shakespeare 5317
880 Js Bach 7418
960 Theory of Gravity gives leader
1040 Newton 9018
1050 Sistine Chapel 9124
1060 Harbor 9236
1240 Bab size 20, 37 prod
1255 Smith Trading 11671
1270 Factory 11909
1275 Coal Plant 12028
1300 size 22, 74 prod
1330 Universal Suffrage
1360 Magellan
1400 ToE 15211
1545 Wall Street 19194
1575 Victory 20040 culture 141 culture per turn, 7 hours
3882 points

The demigod one is worth loading just to see how crappy the AI islands were :)

As I said before, the Warlord one I used the masonry leader, but had very average terrain.

Notice it also has my earliest Shakespear ever : 130 AD...
Im getting better and better each game at fitting all the pieces together, research, prebuilds etc...

In the demigod one I had GREAT terrain considering the type of map, but got very few leaders.

On lower difficulties, I usually restart until I get coast, river, cow.
And I restart if I dont get Masonry leader.
I research masonry first like punkbass, and then trade for alphabet, then do a repu jump (if I havnt met the hittites or portugal when I am done with masonry I do mysticism).

On higher difficiculties, I take Mongols and Zulus on archipelago.
With a dry archipelage its almost impossible to ge ta river, so I restart until I get lake, coast and cow.
I havnt tried many starts actually, that demigod game was just to see how it went. I got almost no Leaders as you can see.

To answer bedhead, dates to beat are
chieftain 1355
warlord 1415
regent 1455
monarch 1535
emperor 1700
demigod 1575

The easiest to beat would probably be the monarch one.
Any coastal river cow start with masonry leader is sure to beat it with good play, without any further leaders.

all these were done on conquest 1.22, tiny with babylonians, other details varying.

Ill try add some screens tomorrow.

I very nearly beat the Emperor date with the Arabs once, before I had refined my 20k technique, of course that was with completely different settings and overall a worse strategy. It may very well come down to who has the patience to get the most coastal river cow starts and then gets lucky.

Sadly, that's what many HOFs come down to, IMO.

Yeah the emperor one shouldnt be too hard to beat, as the demigod one shows.
Of course as you say, you still need patience...
I dont use mapfinder anymore, as i cant make it restart conquest.
Most of these games were done using about 100 restart I would say approximately.
out of the 100 I founded the city only maybe 10-15 times.

What is your exact problem with MapFinder? I had trouble with it at first, but it works okay for me now. Maybe if you described your problem...

Well it works perfectly, except that it is not able to restart Conquest, after a specific number of iterations, to prevent memory problems...
Do you have Conquest in default path?
Maybe that is the problem...


also I noticed in my last game, the demigod one, that not all luxuries have to exist.
For example I think there were only 4 or 5 different luxuries on the whole map, and no ivory.
Maybe Im dumb, but I always thought there was at least one instance of each luxury.

No, tiny maps usually don't have all luxury types. Even small maps oftehn have only 7.

Especially on age 5 billion. I have had instances on standard of gems missing, because there were so few mountains.

Well, I don't know what is causing your MapFinder problem. I think you are right about the default path thing though.

My latest game and first posted defeat :)
This was on deity.
Overall the game went very well, but I made a few critical mistakes : this was on archi zulus and mongols, usual setting for high diff (arid, dry, no barbs, 3 millions, 80% water)
I started with ivory and one cow by a lake.Otherwise the situation was average, a few desert tile in city radius.
A small island with room for 4 others cities (thats about average).
deity
3950 palace
3350 temple 12
3000 settlers 33
2850 contact zulus
2800 Ninevh founded, masonry gives GL
This if of course a req for me to keep these games

2750 Pyramids 52 get Iron and 10 gold for masonry and ceremonial burial

This was bad Im not used to this yet, shouldnt have traded
Although I did learn that I had no Iron on island, but there was some close by.
2430 Ninevh builds worker 116
2070 Alphabet 202
2030 Ninevh builds warrior 212
1675 Colossus, ninevh builds worker 324, mongols build oracle
1650 Warrior
1550 Mathematics gives GL 409
A 2nd one so early, didnt have any use for it yet :)
1425 ninevh builds worker 494
1275 Writing 596
1250 Bab size 11, 16 prod
1200 SoZ 647
1175 Curragh
1100 Philo\Litterature\Library triggers GL
1075 Great Library triggers GA 755 Give Mathematics for Mysticism, Pottery, 4 gold
Meet Mongols, get Warrior Code, The Wheel, Horseback Riding
Mongols destroy zulus!
That was the clincher I think, because I was alone to face the mongols now :)
They started on the same small island BTW
875 Mausolleum of Mausollos 995
850 Polytheism, Barracks
825 Temple of Artemis 1059
670 Mongols sneak attack (they actually attacked me often, and one of the wars I lost my iron supply, which was weakly defended which was a great mistake)

530 Great Lighthouse
490 1666
430 Cathedral 1789
310 The Republic 2053
270 Colosseum
10 BC Mongols produce Great Wall
50 AD Hanging Gardens 2894
70 Harbor
470 Sistine Chapel 5066
490 University 5220
690 Copernicus 6876
900 Newton 8758
1130 Shakespeare 10998
had lost my iron city at some point before this, and was preparing expedition to get it back. It worked, but the suceeding war had the mongols almost annhilitae me, in anyway they were closing on dom victory with nothing I could do to stop them.
1210 Factory 11862
1240 Coal Plant 12186
1270 12726 domination defeat
20K victory in 1600 at constant culture
By comparing, this would have been more like 1535 which would have been amazing...

Lessons for this level :
-slow tech pace
- go for worse culture wise wonders if it kills the AI plans.
-having the AIs suck, is very important :)

I decided to go back and improve my monarch and emperor score, then try again at deity. It took me about 500-600 restart to get a masonry SGL with a good map on monarch, but what a game. The starting location was average (river+coast, cow and wheat but no ivory anywhere close (in fact the ennemeies built SoZ)). Too much coast though, only 10 non-water squares.


I got extremely lucky on SGLs though :
Masonry, Writing (my 2nd tech)
I faced a tough choices at this point, and I decided to rush litterature through philo to get GL as soon as possible, even though this gives me a despo GA. In hindsight, this was the best decision.
Then Construction
Another tough choice, as that was my last AA tech, so I had the choice between ToA and Sistine. I decided to go for ToA right now, rather than wait for Sistine, as that would also allow me to build my university faster (Because I usually wait for Toa for University, because if it becomes obsolete you cant build it)
Then Feudalism
Then I got a MGL and another SGL on Invention (Im not kidding this was a crazy game)
Then I got a last SGL on Indus, finishing with a 1350 Victory, 20026, 164 culture per turn, 17 GW, 23 hours, 3922 points

Monarchy low settings
4000 palace
meet hittites
3600 temple
3250 settlers
3200 masonry creates leader
3150 pyramids 35
trade masonry and ceremonial burial for alphabet and 10 gold
3050 ninevh founded 49
2800 ninevh builds warrior, meet portugal 88
trade masonry and ceremonial burial for pottery, warrior code and 4 gold
2590 ninevh builds worker 128
2430 writing creates leader
2390 ninevh builds worker 178
2190 ninevh builds worker 228
2070 Colossus, philosophy, litt 266
2030 Great Library triggers GA, ninvevh builds worker
1990 GL gives WC, HB, IW
1910 Library 352
1790 CoL 430
1650 bab size 12, 21 prod in GA
1600 Writing + 4 gpt for mysticism
mysticism for 14 gold
hittites are building oracle
1575 ninevh builds settler 638
1500 Ashur founded, republic 716
1475 Oracle\revolution 742
1425 Golden Age ends, we are in repu
1400 Mathematics 772
1300 Polytheism
1250 GL gives map making
1150 Monarchy 1072
1050 Currency 1192
950 Construction\HG SGL 1342
925 Temple of Artemis 1385
850 Cathedral 1532
give litterature to hittites to escape war
775 Colosseum 1691
650 Theology 2021
530 Education 2351
510 MoM 2406
450 University 2581
10 BC Feudalism gives leader
30 AD Portugueuse complete SoZ (they did great lighthouse some time ago)
110 AD hittite finish Great Wall
130 AD Shakespeare 4490
150 AD Js Bach 4571
170 AD Produce Military Leader 4661
250 AD Invention produces SGL
320 Heroic Epic 5667
330 Sistine 5763
570 Newton, bab at 26 prod 8235
590 Industrialization makes GL
610 Factory 8691
620 Universal Suffrage 8805
650 Coal Plant 9159
730 Copernicus 10103
740 Harbor 10225
750 Bab at size 23, 50 prod
820 Magellans Voyage 11201
890 hittites build sun tzu
930 ToE 12576
1000 Wall Street 13472
1110 Smith Trading 14902
1220 Leonardo 16479
1230 Research Lab 16628
1290 Apollo Program 18138
1330 Military Academy 19370
1350 Victory 20026, 164 culture per turn, 17 GW, 23 hours, 3922 points
I have the save at the bottom for those interested.

Im going to go back to Emperor now, hoping to be in the sub 1475 range.

This is my new Emperor game.
I decided to use the lower level settings (pangea with hittites and portugal) instead of an archipelago, because I think I am now able to do Emperor like that in a 20 K setting.
And it worked. The start was a bit hard, becasue coming out of my boosting capital phase I had 2 cities vs the computers 5 or 6 each, and they were right in my face.
But once they got a beat beaten up, the game went just like a regent game, except they didnt go down as fast, which allowed for a few Military Leaders :)
I got a lot of leaders, but most of them in industrial age, where I had no need for them.

The finish was in 1480, which was a bit worse than I thought I would get initially, but I did some bad managing in late Middle Age, and didnt switch early enough from a war economy to a research and money economy so that slowed me a lot in Industrial.
The starting location was actually pretty sucky, only A whale and a wheat plains in radius.

Heres my "more detailed than usual" timeline.

3950 palace
3450 temple
3200 masonry gives great leader
3050 settlers 34
3000 pyramids 37
2850 ninevh founded
2670 ninevh builds warrior 92
2590 meet hitttites, mysticism
2550 masonry, CB for alphabet, 10 gold 116
2470 ninevh builds worker
2200 ninevh builds worker 180
2070 ninevh builds worker,meet portugal 230
give masonry cb for WC, pottery, 5 gold
1990 writing
1725 colossus, portugal starts oracle 348
1575 bab size 12, 17 shields, code of laws
1425 Philosophy/repu/revolution 552
1350 ninevh builds settler
1300 litt 603
1250 bab 20 shields
1200 oracle, portugueuse switch to lighthouse
1175 Library, give mysticism under threat 692
1100 poly
1000 currency, give code of laws for iron working
925 MoM trigger GA 932
875 Construction 984
mathematics for the wheel and 11 gold
currency for HB, Map making, 3 gold
730 Monotheism 1140
630 Great Library 1282
610 Cathedral 1317
575 Declare war on Hittites
550 Capture Hattusan and Iron, Coll 1431
530 Theology 1471
430 peace with hittitites
350 war with portugal
330 take lagos
270 peace with portugal for emeritas 1991
engineering gives GL
190 Portugal completes greal lighthouse
hittites switch to ToA Sun Tzu, portuguese start on ToA
70 BC Temple of Artemis 2430
They switch to Great Wall
50 BC Js Bach 2481
30 BC war vs hittites, lose samarra, take it back + ugarit
10 BC University
portugueuse start hanging garden
lose ugarit take tarsus
peace for alaca ayuk and 7 gold
hittites start hanging garden
250 AD war vs portugal, take oporto
300 peace with port for leiria
330 forbidden palace
360 Shakespeare 4097
390 declare war on hittites
410 take ugarit astronomy gives GL, lose eridu
430 take eridu peace with hittites for emar and 35 gold
hattusas complete sun tzu
portugueuse switch to leonardo and HG
500 Hanging Gardens
They switch to Great Wall, and Leo
510 Sistine 5298
520 Harbor 5390
580 attack hittites
610 capture hattusas
690 Newton
700 Geat Military Leader 7052
peace with hittites
740 Steam Power 7444
780 coal is connected 7836
war with portugal
840 37 production 8424
850 Copernicus 8522
860 take Lisbon, Factory
880 Coal Plant 8828
hittites sneak attack
910 Heroic Epic 9134
920 We get another military leader
970 Magellan 9798
1060 peace with hittites
1070 Theory of Evolution 11020
1110 Economics trigger GL
1160 Smith Trading
1170 Universal Suffrage 12283
1190 Steel triggers GL
1255 Leonardo 13480
1265 Marketplace
1270 Hoover Dam 13885
1310 Wall Street 14981
1355 motorized transport triggers GL
1400 Research Lab
1405 Seti Program
1430 United Nations 18456
1470 Apollo Program
1475 19862, 158 culture per turn
1480 Victory 4151 points