SGOTM4 - Spoiler 1 Middle Ages Plus map of starting continent

Rules for Posting in and Viewing this thread

1. Your team must be researching a middle age tech.
2. You must have the complete map of the starting landmass.
3. A nominated team member must have posted a summary of the teams game to the limit of this spoiler.
4. No discussion is permitted of any contact made from other continents.
5. No discussion is permitted of any Middle Age resource locations.

REMEMBER: Wait until your teams' summary has been posted before reading or posting in this thread yourself.

Discussion points of interest to me include:-
1. City Placement.
2. Victory condition choice, and how to acheive it
3. Resource aquisition
4. Research methodology
5. Chosing between the Green and the Gold laurel awards.

[ptw] SGOTM4 Team Summary for spoiler 1 for team Bede

We decided that we would go for a 20K attempt and that we would aim for the Golden Laurels. With our graph on the early part of the team summary graphs perhaps we will also get the Wooden Spoons.

We spoted the Cow in the initial start so we moved the worker East to confirm and settled SE and founded Carthage. We first produced some warriors so that we could scout for a good 20K location.

At 3000BC we have 3 warriors, 2 workers, and a newly built settler looking for a 20K city location. We also had contacted Rome at this point. We get BW from Rome for Masonry.

Our initial research was set to writing in the hopes of trading for CB. Writing was going to take about 40 turns and there wasn't much we could do about it at this point. Over the years we will buy several early techs from Rome for Techs + G + GPT. On our own we research Writing, CB, Lit, CoL, Philo, Republic, Construction, and Poly. Great Library gives us: Mysticism and eventually some Middle Age techs.

For the 20K City location we decided that we would build Utica only 2 tiles from Carthage on the river and coast. We decided that Carthage would be a throw-away city and use it to produce settlers, workers, and some troops for disbanding purposes and we would get rid of Carthage when we had a good location for city #5.

Since it looked like we wouldn't have CB for a while we decided to start right in on Colossus as this would finish not long after we had CB. We also start looking for locations for cities 3, 4, 5 and the replacement of Carthage.

By 150BC we enter the Middle Ages but don't start researching a MA tech until 210AD. At 210AD we are nearly in position to attack Rome. Except for Pyramids and Oracle, we have built (are building HG) all AA wonders plus we built Heroic Epic. We have only recieved one great leader who became an army. We still only really have 4 out of our 5 cities as we will throw out Carthage once we have defeated the city of Rome.

Timeline:
2850 Utica (20K city) founded on the coast.

2550 - 30 We have essentially explored our entire continent.

2390 Found Leptis Magna

1675 - Build Colossus in Utica for the start to 20K! followed by a temple.

1500 - The Southern Front
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/TeamBedeSGOTM4_1500BC.jpg

1400 Found Theveste in the South near the Romans.

1125 IBT - Rome declares war after being frustrated at our blocking moves. We get back some GPT we were paying them.

1100BC - A NuMerc kills a Roman Warrior and we enter our Golden Age. We have a few elites from killing barbs so we hope for a leader soon... We don't see any Roman Legions at this time as they have not hooked up their Iron yet! We eventually send an archer and Merc to sit on the Iron so Rome can't hook it up.

975BC Found Hippo in the north far enough away to greatly expand our territory once enough culture is present.

925BC - Build the Great Library in Utica! followed by a Library.

750BC Here is a picture of the Roman front:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bede750.JPG

530BC - Peace with the Romans so that we can use our Palace Pre-build for something. We get MM in exchange for peace and Lit. Pyramids and Oracle have been build overseas so Lighthouse is the only wonder we get to quickly.

510BC - Build the Great Lighthouse in Utica!
- Other continent Civ Galley shows up and GL teaches us Myst.

410BC - our first galleys start making contact with additional foriegn powers. We descend into anarchy.

370BC - We install a Republic government following a 2 turn anarchy.

210BC - Utica builds Great Wall of Carthage! followed by a Colloseum

190BC - Rome declares war again when we ask them to leave our territory.

150BC - We research Polytheism and enter the Middle Ages.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/turn120.JPG
We start reseaching Monarchy so the timeline doesn't end for this spoiler yet.

10BC - We get a Great Leader and build an Army so we can build Heroic Epic eventually. We have another Archer/Merc pillage team heading for the Roman iron and they see a Legion defending Rome.

50AD NuMerc Army kills a spear and we can now build Heroic Epic.

70AD Utica builds Heroic Epic!

150AD A Civ from the other continent builds a town near our Ivory :(

210AD Learn Monarchy and shut down research (start on Mono in forever). Hanging Gardens in 8 turns. We are prepared to march on Rome with a stack of death:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bedestackSP.jpg

Team Offa PtW

Roster:

-grs
-Gozpel
-WackenOpenAir
-Offa
-Klarius
-NorthernPike

Victory condition

The team was already formed with the intention to go for 5CC conquest and we are on a good way to reach that goal.

I think 5CCC will probably stand no chance for the gold laurels against builders doing a good 20k.
But with everybody going for the variant we could reach green. :D

We have a lot of controverse discussions about the right strategy, but having 6 :king: players it turns out to work out fine anyways. :cool:

City placement

The first big discussion was a religious between gozpelism and klariusism for initial development.
The gozpelists won, our 5th town was founded in 1830BC already and our empire at 1750BC looked like this:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/1750bc.jpg

But there were some interesting developments in our first war with Rome so shortly before the change of ages it looked like that:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/350bc.jpg

New Rome has the Forbidden Palace due to a leader generated in one of our first elite victories in 750BC.
New Rome was settled in 550BC, a peace treaty gave enough cities, the FP was rushed and we got rid of the extra cities before the turn ended.
This image also explains our resource acquisition in the AA ;)

Science

We started with min on writing.
When this completed it was already clear that map making had high priority.
So pottery and MM at max next, followed by literature.
The rest of the tech development involves a lot off continent action so let's just state that we researched currency in 270BC and entered the MA.

Wonders

We started a prebuild early and Theveste built the Great Lighthouse in 800BC.
That's it for AA wonders.

War

Our only real war in AA was the one against Rome.
But we had already also some phony wars going on and were planning some off continent actions.

Goal
It looks like we are not the only team going for 20k victory.

Development
Our worker moved north, saw spices and a second cow. The settler moved east and founded Carthage 3950BC. It started by building 3 warriors for exploring and military police, followed by a settler. We wanted to build at rcp distances 4 and 8, with our 20k city on the coastal plains southwest of Carthage.

Accipitridae was founded 2800BC and immediately started a temple, followed by Colossus, Great Library, Great Lighthouse, and a library. Then came the Heroic Epic and as first building of the Middle Ages, a hurried cathedral. We supported the city a lot by joining a couple of workers into it (Carthage got a granary after the settler and was a 3 turn archer/worker pump). This delayed our settling: Utica was founded on the western coast claiming the spices in 1400BC, Leptis Magna secured the sheep valley 1100BC, and Theveste claimed the ivory in 900BC.

Resources:
To our dismay, we were resource-less with the iron having Romans on our continent. The Great Lighthouse later opened overseas trading possibilities. We of course claimed spices and (after culture expansion of our northern city Theveste) ivory.

Research
We researched pottery, writing, literature (going for Great Library), map making (for exploring overseas), philosophy, code of law, republic. We learned it 370BC, revolted immediately, and after 3 turns of anarchy were a republic in 310BC. Then we stopped research relying on the Great Library and saving money for hurrying culture buildings in Accipitridae.

Wars
1950BC the first Roman war started with Caesar declaring war on us. It ended 1150BC after we got 2 slaves from a captured settler and burned Pompeii.

550BC the 2nd Roman war started when we declined to pay tribute to Caesar. In its beginning, we destroyed Viroconium (the Roman settlement north of Carthage) and enslaved another settler. The killing at Leptis Magna created our first Great Leader Hamilcar. He built an archer (yuk) army, which made a killing and allowed us to build Heroic Epic in Accipitridae. Caesar agreed to peace 390BC and we acquired and abandoned Ravenna making him our everlasting friend.

Exploring:
We met 2 overseas civs with our 1st galley and a lot more after the Great Lighthouse allowed for longer sails. But none of this may be discussed in this spoiler.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/tao_sgotm4_50AD.jpg

Middle Ages:
The Middle Ages started 90BC when the Great Library gave us currency. Our free Middle Age tech (Civ 1.29) was monotheism.

Edit/add:
In hindsight it was important to pop a southern goody hut in 2900BC giving us ceremonial burial allowing for an early temple in Accipitridae.

Team Ivan:

1. AndreanE
2. dcstevez
3. rrau
4. I. Larkin (Ivan)
5. TheNemesis666


Our initial conversations did not yield a consensus on what type of victory to pursue except that we decided against 20k. Since then we have pursued a balance of power strategy centered around initial peace with Rome in the hopes of cooperative research and development.

We started by moving our worker east, seeing the SE cow (which was visible in the fog) and then settling NE of the start location which gave us the other cow just by dumb luck. We lost a few turns getting irrigation to the cows but then had a very rapidly growing city. We chose not to build a granary.

Our first warrior went south and met the Romans. We traded them Masonry for Bronzeworking and some gold.

Our first settler founded Utica at the mouth of the river south of Carthage. After building a warrior and a worker, Utica started the colossus as our scouts indicated that we were stuck on a small island with the Romans.

We founded Leptis Magna on the southern end of the mountain river, but just off the coast to give access to both sheep. We now knew that Rome had Iron and we didn't and there are no horses on the island, ruling out war with Rome until at least the middle ages.

We founded Theveste west of Carthage with the spices and Hippo was founded to the north as a semi-permanent city to hold down the ivory.

Techwise we went straight for literature to speed research and culture expansion, then mapmaking (which may have been a mistake because the Romans also researched it and we could have traded them for it only 3 turns after we discovered it). Then we researched philosophy and traded it and some cash to the Romans for CoL intentionally giving them a significant amount in gpt to try and prevent war. Then we started researching Republic

In around 1200 BC another race completed the colossus and we switched over to the lighthouse... a decision we may have made regardless but this way it was easy.

In 1000BC we had 5 cities, 20 citizens, 6 workers, 6 warriors, 5 hoplites and 1 galley circling the island looking for a way off. We also had two barracks and two libraries. Our firaxis score of 200 put us in about fifth place based on the graph.

I think we may have been slightly delayed contacting other civs because this was my first game with differential naval movement and I wasted several moves staying in coastal waters and didn't realize that I could get 4 moves out of my galley in the right situations.

Ivan sent some workers into Roman territory in 730 BC to build a road to Rome so we could trade with them. This was about 30-40 turns after he initially told us to do this (and every 10 turns thereafter) but we just built the road to Veii and complained that Rome wasn't building the necessary internal roads.

We completed the lighthouse in Utica in 650 BC and sent suicide galleys in all directions. During our era of exploration we contacted some civs, traded for a bunch of gold (got back all the gold we had given the Romans) and some techs.

The Romans finished the pyramids in 570BC and started the great library. This set them up for guaranteed eventual conquest.

We discovered Republic in 530BC and revolted (3 turns). Our economy was a little shaky after the revolt due to high unit support costs and 10% luxury. Luckily the cash we gained from exploration subsidized our economy nicely for this period. We discovered currency in 330 BC and entered the modern age with some serious construction projects under way, and still trying to figure out how to go about conquering the world... or at least the Roman pyramids.


Here's our map from 1000bc

"Are we nearly there yet?", whined little Princess Hannibaline. She was not happy. They'd been travelling for what seemed years, and still her two guardians wanted to move on further. Og the industrious but stupid worker and Ag, his pregnant wife, seemed determined to find the BEST location in the whole world to settle down and raise their new family. They had stopped on the edge of a stream, by a forest, and were debating for the hundredth time whether they should cross the river to the north east, or settle on the eastern grasslands, where they could see lush pastures and caught a fleeting glimpse of wild cattle grazing.

The immortal Hannibaline had been told by an ancient wise man called mad-bax that her destiny was to found a great civilisation to be called neoCarthage, consisting of five beautiful cities. Each city would have its own role in the empire, and the great seer, leif erikson, had predicted that one would become the cultural capital of the known world. All that seemed a distant dream as they had trudged over the mountain and arrived here.

Hannibaline couldn't really see the point of moving another inch, but the discussion seemed never ending. Eventually the mighty Gotm-God zamint the third appeared in a dream and told the Princess what she had to do. And she made it so. Og would head south into the forest to check whether there were really cattle in the distance, or if there was any better land nearby. Og's pidgeon soon returned with confirmation of the cattle, and so Hannibaline and Ag headed east to start building Carthage, and a Palace fit for the future Empress of Carthage. When Og arrived at the cattle pasture he first built a path to keep his feet dry, and then started building irrigation ditches with his trusty spade.

For 500 years the little settlement grew peacefully. Princess Hannibaline knew the alphabet, and had decided to learn, very slowly, to write. Og and Ag begat children, who begat ... well, you get the picture. A warrior had been trained and sent out to learn about the rest of the world and find out if intelligent life existed outside Carthage. Well, the most intelligent thing he could find in 3000 BC was a Roman warrior doing the same thing. They sat and exchanged food and drink and taught each other a couple of tricks. The Carthaginian had also trained in stone Masonry, and the Roman knew a thing or two about how to make bows and arrows and the secret Warrior Code, though he'd never been trained as an archer himself. So they traded these skills and swapped pidgeons to allow their two leaders to contact each other in future.

As time passed Caesar of Rome helped Hannibaline's people to learn lots more inventions - Ceremonial Burial, metal working in bronze for pretty jewelry (and spears, but she didn't see the point of them :mischief: ), the wheel, and pottery. The great mystery was how he managed to learn so much, since he was basically very stupid. However, he was prepared to exchange the first two of these for Writing, which she finally mastered in the year known as 2150 BC, and the others for gold that Hannibaline saved up and stashed away. Hannibaline was very upset after she had spent a lot of cash on the secrets of the Wheel, only to discover that none of her subjects knew where she could get any horses to pull wheeled carts. A classic case of putting the cart before the horse :(

After she learned to write, the little Princess started to learn about literature. As she had to create a great cultural city she wanted to build a Great Library to kick it off. By this time she had founded two more cities. Utica was founded on the west coast in 3000 BC to specialise in military production. She couldn't build charriots, but she knew what to do with bows and arrows as she had read about them. She had founded Leptis Major on the east coast in 2750 BC to be the cultural capital of the world, and started building the Great Library there. She had to pretend it was a Pyramid to convince the labourers to work on it, because they didn't know she was learning about Literature.

Two more cities were founded. Theveste in 1725 BC and Hippo in 1425 BC on the north coast, completing Hannibaline's five city plan. In 1225 BC she had learned all there was to know about literature, and she announced to an astounded population that the big building with all the shelves being built in Leptis Major was not a Pyramid at all. It was a Great Library! And it would be complete quite soon. Once it was, they would learn everything that the rest of the world knew as long as it was known by two other leaders. That left a small unanswered question. They only knew Caesar, so where would they find another leader to contribute to their knowledge? What they needed was to learn to sail. But Princess Hannibaline had become a complete culture vulture by now, and decided that she would not learn Mapmaking, but Philosophy. She was pretty sure this would enable neoCarthage to discover a new and better way to manage its political and economic life. She was also confident that her friend Caesar would find out about sailing and tell her all about it. This was a far-sighted lass who had read all the literature in the world!

So in 1050 BC she arrived at the gates of Rome with her great works of Philosophy, and struck a deal. Caesar learned all about Philosophy and Literature, and in exchage the little Princess learned to sail using Mapmaking. Utica and Hippo immediately switched their mighty factories to producing galleys, and neoCarthage started the search for intelligent life again. In 975 BC the citizens of Leptis Major completed the Great Library. They then built a Temple, and started on a Small Library, where ordinary people could go for paperbacks or to get out of the rain ... or so they thought :mischief:

Hannibaline had arranged for a supply of local spices to be delivered to the cities early on, but the growing population was clamouring for more luxuries to make their working lives bearable. The Princess knew that there was ivory in the north and wool in the south, but had not been able to spare workers to build the supply lines. However, in 950 BC an archer on patrol in the north reported that Rome had landed a settler, escorted by an archer, near the ivory. The Princess decided the time had come to initiate her plan to cut Caesar down to size.

For some time the Princess had been aware of Caesar's knowledge of iron working and that this meant he could build fearsome Legionaries, equipped with strong armour and heavy swords. It was clear that she needed to prevent him from building a large force and overrunning her beautiful but small empire. She had built a force of archers in preparation for this moment, so she declared war and ordered the brave archer in the north to deal with the invading Romans, which he did, taking two slaves.

Under the masterly generalship of Captain Buttkick, Carthage's archers razed Antium in 900 BC and Pompeii in 875 BC. In 775 BC Caesar was prepared to give up three more cities if the Captain would just stop hurting him. So within 125 years of the outbreak of the war, peace was restored and Pisae, Hispalis and Neapolis fell under the rule of the Princess. She was delighted of course, and an enormous celebration was held in Carthage. With a total of eight cities in the empire it was possible to persuade the citizens in Leptis Major to switch their construction efforts from a library to a Forbidden Palace! Only after they'd committed to this change of plan, burnt the library plans, and awoken the next day with hangovers, did the worthy and cultured citizens of Leptis hear that Hannibaline had immediately ordered Buttkick to destroy the three captured cities in order to remain true to her vow only ever to have five.

Having dispersed the Romans from the wool supply Roman slaves were ordered to build a road to deliver wool and ivory to the Carthaginian cities. Colonies were founded to work the supplies of these two new luxuries.

Caesar was reduced to a shadow of his former empire, but Hannibaline knew she would have to put an end to Rome, as he would stop at nothing to rebuild his Legionary army and take over the continent.

Meanwhile the first galleys had rolled down the slipways, and a couple had made brave but fatal attempts to discover new lands across the wild oceans to the west. However, in 750 BC acting galley captain AlanH set his sails to a favourable wind and they were greeted by the sight of a safe coast and new lands and new friends. The Great Library immediately delivered on its fabled promise, and Hannibaline suddently knew more than she needed to about Iron Working, Mysticism, Maths and Horse Riding. Caesar had finally outlived his usefulness as a supplier of new inventions, and was living on borrowed time. Hannbaline could now see that Caesar really was sitting next to the only supply of iron ore on the continent, and in 610 BC he completed the real Pyramids in Rome. These unique assets would provide a fitting trophy when the Carthaginian troops marched into Rome.

In spite of the fact that they were learning lots from the Great Library, Hannibaline continued to work hard, learning about Codes of Laws, to be ready for her new government, as she really wanted all those economic advantages, and to give the people of neoCarthage the right to vote for her. She started to work on this project in 825 BC and named it Republic. In 350 BC the Great Library taught them Construction. It later delivered Polytheism and Currency to take neoCarthage into the Middle Ages in 150 BC.

In 250 BC the Romans, having failed to learn a lesson, landed another settler near our ivory, this time accompanied by a legionary. Hannibaline declared war again and put DJMGator the 13th, who blew into town like a hurricane, in charge of her army of archers, now augmented by catapults. Two archers defeated the interlopers, triggering Rome's Golden Age, and the Princess's army advanced once more onto Roman soil. So by the time Carthage reached the Middle Ages they were at war with Rome again, this time intending to capture Rome itself, along with the Pyramids, and their iron supply, and to put an end to Caesar.

Will they succeed? Who did the intrepid galley captains meet overseas? Have we seen the last hurricane to hit Gator this year? Will Princess Hannibaline achieve her destiny to build a five-city empire to stand the test of time, and a cultural city to be the envy of the world? All this and much, much more in our next transmission. Don't fail to miss the next thrilling installment of "The Princess" by Machiavelli. :mischief:

Looking at the posts above (only half of the teams probably qualifying have posted: why? are they lazy? or afraid? or secret societies? ;)) I compiled the following table to show the competition:

team target culture city founded Middle Ages
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Bede 20k Utica 2850bc 150bc
tao 20k Accipitridae 2800bc 90bc
Xteam 20k Leptis Magna 2750bc 150bc
Offa conquest - - 270bc
Ivan not 20k - - 330bc
The Score Graph shows Offa and Xteam in the lead; they had an early war with Rome in which they temporarly acquired 8 cities allowing them to build the Forbidden Palace.

Offa reached the Middle Ages in 270 BC. They also have the FP, built in New Rome by a leader.

Score doesn't tell the real story for Gold Laurel competition. Have a look at relative culture performances in the three 20K cities :rolleyes:

And in fact score doesn't tell much about the competition at all.
With all the teams doing 5CC all will end up with a quite low Firaxis base score.
The green laurels will also depend mainly on finish date and the Jason bonus.

Firaxis won't mean much for a while. For example, Bede really only has 4 cities as far as population and territory at the point of this spoiler.

As far as the 20K race goes, it will really come down to leaders. At the point of the spoiler Tao and Bede have each had one leader which was responsible for building Heroic Epic in the culture city for each. Xteam meanwhile has used the peace opportunity with Rome to get the FP in their culture city. This should give a couple sheild per turn boost long term for Xteam (cutting 2-4 turns off future wonders).

If any team gets significantly more leaders than another team this can tip the balance.

As far as the 20K race goes, it will really come down to leaders. That is one thing why I don't like 20k runs on ptw. They tend to be nothing but leader farming, instead of a builders and planners challenge.

That is one thing why I don't like 20k runs on ptw. They tend to be nothing but leader farming, instead of a builders and planners challenge.Please tell this to our RNG. We now got 29 elite wins without a Leader, despite having Heroic Epic. :cry:

Team alamo-- the Team-formerly-known-as-Mauer-- makes their triumphant return to the land of SGOTM, plagued by computer difficulties but determined nevertheless.

After a stern lecture on the posting rules and a welcome to MailMan, our newest member, we promptly got down to business, and spent four productive days trying to decide where to settle. After this long period of argument, carried on between those who wanted to settle on the spot and those who wanted to move SE, ended in a two-on-two deadlock, our leader made an executive decision and settled right on the spot. As it turned out, an excellent decision.

We decided right off the bat to try for 20k cultural victory, with diplomatic as a backup. Ceremonial Burial was an important tech to get, obviously, but after evaluating the techs known by other civs, we decided that that Wheel would be a better choice to start with, since nobody knew it. Exploring with a warrior, we were disgusted by all the mountains to the south, and promptly abandoned ideas of an RCP.

We first encountered Rome in 3450 BC, and agreed to make the best out of a rotten terrain by maintaining a guerilla strike-and-retreat line across the southern mountain range. Our next fierce debate concerned the optimal placement of our cities, complicated by the fact that half our team was missing the graphics installation that lets one see sheep and oysters. We decided that we would like to settle south to beat Rome to the good spots, but that the best sites were too far to the south.

Northern warrior discovers some ivory. (Which is pretty weird-- one doesn't usually find elephants living in arctic forests, but oh well... maybe they're mastodons or something.)

Finally, our first settler founds Utica in 2950 BC on the coastal BG NE of Carthage. Upon completing the wheel, we are very disappointed by the complete lack of horses, but we press on undeterred. We argue some more about the placement of cities, and briefly toy with a clever palace jump to produce a perfect RCP on the northern segment of the continent. It gets shot down in open debate.

In 2630 BC, we are fortunate to pop Pottery from a goody hut. :D We found Leptis Magna NW of Carthage in 2270 BC, then start the Pyramids in Carthage in 2070. Theveste is founded in 1650 on the southern slopes. By this point, Rome has occupied the rich terrain south of the mountains, and will probably come looking for territory soon. We redouble our military efforts.

Worried about Rome, we begin plotting our strategy. We don't have iron working yet, but we suspect that the hill next to Rome has iron because there is a road on it. We don't like to trigger a despotic GA, but we realise that our Numidian Mercenaries are likely the only hope we have to overcome Roman legions. This feeling intensifies in 1100, when we trade with Rome for Iron Working and discover that not only were we correct about the hill next to Rome, but that we don't even have any iron at all. :eek: It is also in this turn that we finish the Pyramids. We start producing Mercenaries at full tilt and occupying the mountainous border with Rome.

In 800 BC, we decide we've had enough of Caesar's smug missives and his self-satisfied, smarmy smirk, and gently request that he provide us with his knowledge of Mysticism. He refuses, so our noble, valiant legions of hired soldiers troop off to battle. They have twice as many cities as we do, but this war had to happen eventually, and we won't have as good a chance at military parity until we build cavalry ahead of them, so now is the best time. In 750, we sack Antium and start our Golden Age.

In 710 an intrepid galley meets the wealthy and advanced nation of *CENSORED*. We try to prevent contact between Rome and outside civs, but this doesn't last very long.

With the arrogance of those who are just marching off to war and will be back by Christmas (or the feast of Baal, or whatever Carthaginians celebrate), we decide that our objective is either to eliminate Rome or to reduce them to a couple of cities we can use as fodder for MGLs. As a compromise, we settle for occupying and pillaging their iron until we can prevail. In 610 we burn Antium to the ground. Over the next century, we contact *CENSORED* and *CENSORED*; we decide to trade as little as possible, and pursue a tech line to Monarchy. We start the Great Library in 690. In 510, we spot the first Ro

In 430, we succeed in depriving Rome of their iron. We finish the Great Library in 350, and our age of glory ends in 330. It is from this point forward that we are utterly abandoned and become forsaken of the gods of the RNG. In 290 Persia begins to settle south of our mountains, where we had just burned Roman cities. From this point until 290 AD, when we enter the Middle Ages, we are in a war with Rome in which we successfully defend our empire, but see our attacking forces demolished by an unfriendly RNG. As an example of this, I attacked a 3/3 archer on grassland with a 5/5 Mercenary, the result of which was a 4/4 archer! We engaged in a brief war with *CENSORED* to kick them off our continent. The only bright spot was the construction of the Great Wall in 10 BC.

In summary:
1100 BC-- Pyramids
350 BC-- Great Library
10 BC-- Great Wall
110 AD-- The Great Monarchy of Carthage is founded
290 AD-- We enter the Middle Ages and begin to research Monotheism.
MGL-- none. We've had 11 elite victories, plus many ridiculous defeats, but no leaders have emerged yet. (X-Team, we feel your pain...) :mad: although I guess this isn't that bad compared to Team tao...

Northern warrior discovers some ivory. (Which is pretty weird-- one doesn't usually find elephants living in arctic forests, but oh well... maybe they're mastodons or something.)

Off Topic: I always thought that these represented the Ivory that comes from walrus's and whales. I know that in the 1990's you could get Walrus Ivory to replace missing Ivory on piano keys.

Well, Team Peanut had a lively pre-SGOTM4 discussion on topics such as pop-rushing Temples and what type of curry went with which type of foods. Ha-Ha! We load the starting save file up and who shows up but Hannibal (taking off his Gandhi mask) and declaring 'You are Industrious, not Religious, and this is not a holiday ... get to Work!' Nice purple threads, however; quite stylish compared to our normal brown.

Since we are playing 5CC, we decided to mosey around a bit to find the most optimal location for our capital. We happened upon both Cattle spaces, and chose a spot at the mouth of the river which uses the two Cattle spaces, several river spaces and is coastal. Carthage had been set upon a path to become a trading center! Victory condition discussions as follows: Domination is out of course, and after SGOTM3 no one wanted Conquest; Cultural 100K is out; 20K is possible but not likely unless pursued vigorously and again, we really didn't have it in us to execute the wars necessary for Leader farming; we'd pretty much decided to pursue Space with a Diplo option to get out more quickly if necessary. We discussed possible GA's and timing, and decided that (if possible) a late GA would be desirable. This could be done by eventually building Hoover's Dam, allowing any other type of GW as long as it wasn't Industrious and at least one was Commercial. Colossus fits this bill nicely, and gives lots of commerce all the way to the end of the Industrial Age.

Research path was to start with a Minimum research on Writing; this would allow us to build up a Treasury, contact whatever neighbors we had, and make whatever trades were available to us with these contacts. After that, Writing would be a valuable trade item when we had finished researching it.

3 Warriors were built to start scouting; after scouting the North half of the continent, we decided on these city sites as possibles.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Peanut_sg4_bc3050Main.JPG

3 was considered most desirable, with plenty of production and several River spaces available. 2 was marginal but useable if nothing else presented itself. 1 had potential to be a coastal stronghold and gain us the spice. We decided to form a 2nd city (site 0) just NW of Carthage first to grab the nearby Spice early; this was intended as a temporary city, and would be used to build up our military; eventually it would be Abandoned. Utica_temporary was formed in 2800 BC on the hill site just North of site 0.

More scouting allowed us to refine our city site choices:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Peanut_sg4_bc2590Main.JPG

Now 1 is a choice between 1a (more production and direct Spice control) and 1b (slightly less production, no spice within radius but coastal.) 1b was preferable to allow Galley production when the time came. Site 4 was chosen as a 'got to have' because of the extra commerce from the river.

In 2750 BC we make contact with a fellow wearing Red. Not good. After some dickering we decide that we would like to know how to work that shiny metal they called 'bronze', and will give them our knowledge of Masonry; Ceasar throws in an additional 5 Gold in the deal.

Having contacted Ceasar in the South, we deem it imperative to found cities at Site 3 (Leptis Magna in 2470 BC) and Site 4 (Theveste in 1725 BC.) Site 3 is most likely ours regardless, but Site 4 allows us to control the central mountain range along with Site 3, and is coastal as well; being the only other river readily available to us, we wanted to be sure to grab it before Ceasar does. Our industrious Workers quickly build a road connecting both to Carthage, and Spices are connected as well. Utica_temporary builds a Barracks and sets about bulking up our military.

After 40 turns we learn Writing, and trade it + 44 Gold to Ceasar for Iron-Working and Pottery. Wouldn't you know it; the only continental source of Iron is directly adjacent to Rome (just swell :( ). By this time we have scouted the entire continent. We need to contact other civs soon, so Map-Making is started at Maximum! About this time we buy a Roman Worker for 110 Gold.

We decided to focus on building the Colossus in Carthage next (after founding Theveste), and finally in 1275 BC we finished it. The extra commerce will aid us in our research, especially if we build the Science improving Wonders in Carthage as well. Our 5th city, Numero_Uno_del_Bee, is founded in 1275 BC.

Research: We learn Map-Making in 1375 BC; Ceasar won't trade much for it and ends up researching it himself a turn or two later. We decide that Literature is the next Tech to learn; Libraries will allow our culture to grow and speed us to Republic that much faster. We learn Literature in 1100 BC, Code of Laws in 900 BC and Philosophy in 800 BC. After Literature is learned, our cities start building Libraries. After Carthage builds a Library, it starts on Great Lighthouse, which looks to be quite valuable for this game.

We do start building Galleys; we do make contacts between now and entering the MidAges. Through some of our early contacts we gain knowledge of Warrior Code, Ceremonial Burial and Mysticism.

Life with Ceasar: he demands Ceremonial Burial from us, and we grudgingly give it up. Later he starts moving forces towards Theveste; we demand he leaves and he refuses - the first Punic War is on in 775 BC! Now we were trying to save our GA for later, but with potential Legions about to show up on our doorsteps, we decided to commit our Numedian Mercenaries to Theveste's defense. Golden Age quickly ensued. We raze Hispalis, which was formed up in the North, and start forming a bunch of Archers. Heading South, we raze Pompeii. Research on Republic is slowed to allow completion of Great Lighthouse, which happens in 470 BC.

The rest of the first Punic War involves some chicanery. We had discussed building the Forbidden Palace, and had tested out on the side that we could have a bunch of Settlers available and in one turn build enough cities to allow the Forbidden Palace, start building it, and Abandon the extra cities; this would keep us at 5 cities at the end of the turn and allow the FP to be built. Since we're at war with Rome, let's get some cities from Ceasar to sign a peace treaty, use them to get our city count up to build the FP, and abandon them at the end of the turn! (A novel concept for peace-loving peanuts.) So in 410 BC our SOArchers attacks Rome, capturing it (and the Great Library BTW, which Ceasar had finished just 2 turns earlier!), we get three more cities in peace negotiations (9 total count), start FP in Leptis Magna, sell of Utica_temporary's Barracks, and Abandon the three Roman towns and Utica_temporary, keeping Rome and its Great Library. To top it off, we also finish research on Republic, revolt, and determine that we might be Religious after all - 1 Turn of Anarchy!! (Mathilda, our newest member, managed this marvelous bit of timing and play!) :goodjob:

New Galley building commences, and with the Great Lighthouse benefit, they are really making the rounds. Colonies are formed on the Northern Ivory and Southern Wool spaces, and Luxury% can be turned down a bit. We trade Philosophy and some Gold to Rome for Polytheism. With our GA winding down, we learn Math 290 BC and Currency in 150 BC; FP is finished in Leptis Magna in 150 BC. Through far-off contacts we gain Construction from the Great Library in the in-between-turn time between 10BC and 10AD; we are in the Middle Ages! The 2nd Punic War is started as well, but that's a story for another time.

Here's a screen shot from 150 BC of our 5CC empire:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Peanut_sg4_bc150Main.JPG

I've covered most of your questions, M-B. Regarding Green or Gold Laurel, I'd say we're going for a Gold Laurel. IMO, an aggressive 20K game has the best chance for both categories, and we're a little late to do a good job with that victory condition, so we'll keep on playing the research game, most likely. We will develop our research capability aggressively, and try to cultivate foreign research as well. We have control over all the resources on our continent; those not within a city radius have a colony on them; protecting those colonies could be fun in the future. Gaining far-off resouces will require trading; that will be covered later. On to the Middle Ages!

... The Middle Ages started 90BC when the Great Library gave us currency. Our free Middle Age tech (Civ 1.29) was monotheism.
Excuse me? Carthage is (should be) Commercial and Industrious. I hope you mean you got a free Monotheism because of the Great Library and knowing 2 Science civs that got it first!

I hope you mean you got a free Monotheism because of the Great Library and knowing 2 Science civs that got it first!Yes. You are correct. Sorry :blush:

Wow - capturing TGL was huge. We just built our own.

Alamo: I think you're referring to us, Team Peanut. For a 20K game, you definitely want to be the one to build it! BTW, in our game, Rome completed the Great Library in around 450 BC, which is ahead of the time your team completed it in your game.

I consider capturing the Great Library nice, but not huge. The Techs we got from it were Construction, Monarchy and a first tier MidAges tech (obtained by two AI civs due to our trading and gifts.) With the contacts we had, we could easily have traded Currency for Construction (our unique Tech for a Tech known by 2 civs), Republic for Monarchy, and probably gotten a unique Republic+Monarchy trade for first tier MA tech known by 2 civs. Getting the Great Library made the sequence easier. This might blow your mind: immediately after entering the MidAges, we Abandoned Rome, destroying the Great Library. :D

Alamo: I think you're referring to us, Team Peanut. For a 20K game, you definitely want to be the one to build it! BTW, in our game, Rome completed the Great Library in around 450 BC, which is ahead of the time your team completed it in your game.We completed it 850BC. :D

We completed it 850BC. :D
Thank you! Of the other Teams who have announced a 20K run, Team Alamo completed GLib in 350 BC, Team Bede completed it in 925 BC, and Team X in 1225 BC! Other Wonders or culture buildings are built before and after. Team Alamo's completion in 350 BC seems a bit risky if the Great Library is critical for your game plan, but the earlier dates seem generally safe.

And so the motley crew known as Team Bugs, were cast upon the banks of the river to form an Indian civilization to stand the test of time. The team decided to rotate responsibility for leadership and the first lot went to Grahamiam. Chief Grahamiam was known to all as THE G-MAN. The G-man had some interesting news for his teammates. The gods MB and AH had changed the name of their civilization to Carthage. “So be it! We will still prevail!” The team shout in unison.

He made Bugsy, the worker and told him to go east. He made Denyd, the settler and made him go northeast, settling our first city in 3950 BC. G-man named it Carthage in honor of our civilization. He made Row&Live our scientist and he went off to research the Wheel and the maximum possible rate.

Bedhead was assigned warrior/exploration duty and found another civilization, named Rome, in 3050 BC. He sent word back to G-man that they could trade the knowledge of bronze working for masonry and five gold pieces.

In 3000 BC R&L returned with the knowledge of the wheel and a mythical creature called the horse. The entire team thought he was a nut, because we had never seen such a creature. We decided to change leadership, since it was G-man’s idea to chase after such silly knowledge. The reigns of power were given to denyd and he instructed G-man to go off and research a way to make powerful weapons.

Denyd had big plans for our civilization. We would make one city the envy of the world. In 2950 BC, he founded Utica, and immediately instructed the citizens to begin building a huge bronze statue of himself. The remaining team members thought that was a bit vain of Denyd, but it was a good plan so they let him go with it. Later, as the statue progressed, the other leaders would subtly change the blueprints and the Colossus as it became known, became a curvaceous scantily clad 50-foot woman. It was completed in 1375 BC, also while Denyd was our leader de jour. When the statue was unveil, he was extremely angry… for about ten seconds then he became very lustful and tried to figure out a way to have the bronze clothing removed.

Bedhead sent word to the new leader in 2800 BC, that a deal could be arranged to learn about archery from Caesar’s technicians. It would cost us a but of gold, but we could get a female slave in the process. Denyd looked about the cave, and decided a slave to clean up after himself and his very messy teammates would be a very good idea. The slave when she arrived was so disgusted with the fact that these men had failed to take out the garbage for almost 1200 years, that she immediately decided to join the road crews building roads between Carthage and Utica.

The team was so pleased with Bedhead’s trading prowess, that he was invited back to be the next leader. One of Bedhead’s initiatives, along with altering the blueprints :drool: was to add additional workers to Utica’s project.

Another was the founding our our civilization’s third city, Leptis on the western shore. He instructed the new governor, Bugsy, to build military units, and create a strong army to attack the “creepy” Caesar.

In 2110 BC, Bugsy ascended to live in the royal cave. He has seen the light in regards to a strong military. He had heard that Caesar knew how to make powerful weapons called swords. He told G-man to stop researching the art and just go buy the knowledge from Caesar. It cost our civilization 124 gold pieces and the promise of 7 additional pieces each year for 20 years. When G-man returned with the knowledge, Bugsy was infuriated to find that the red ore was a myth as well.

“I saw an iron mine just outside Rome!” G-man exclaimed.
Bugsy had an evil streak and proclaimed to the team, “Twice now he has failed us. I think he should be sent away to a far off land where they speak a strange tongue. He should not be allowed to rule the next time it is his turn.” And thus the G-man was sent to Japan where he didn’t have internet access and was forced endure a typhoon.

In 1750 BC, Row&Live became our leader. He saw that Bugsy’s military ideas had merit and continued to build a force of archers. In 1675, Caesar demanded that we give him 21 gold pieces as tribute. R&L reluctantly gave the scoundrel the gold, but vowed to make him pay one day. He ordered barracks to be built to train veteran soldiers, and the Carthaginian forces grew.

In 1550 BC, Denyd took command of the cave again and developed a new type of warrior. We could pay the Numidians for the use of their warriors. We called them the Numidian Mercenaries.

He also founded our fourth city, Theveste in the Valley of the Sheep. The art of writing was discovered and he ordered that we find something to do with these letters. He sent R&L off to figure something out.

Here is our Colossus that was completed in 1375BC:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/fifty_foot_woman.jpeg

Denyd immediately started building a temple knowing how cultured that always made him feel.
In 1325 our fifth and final city, Hippo was founded to the northeast.

Here is a map of our civilization:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sgotm4-bugs-50AD1.jpg


Utica’s temple was completed during Bedhead’s turns, and a building he said was the pyramids started being built little did we know that he would turn it in to a fabulous library.

At the turn of the millennium, Bugsy moved into the cave again and started again on the military build up and set up Denyd for an attack on Rome. Under General Denyd’s tutelage, the Carthaginian archers were able to raze three Roman cities to the ground. Because he wasn’t interested in starting a golden age, he kept our NuMerc in the rear. Unfortunately that caused our elite archers to take the brunt of any counterattacks. We had very poor leader luck. The leadership cycled through to Bedhead, because R&L ran off with the model we used for the Colossus, and G-man was still banished to Japan.

Bugsy learned to sail our galleys and discovered a far off civilization. Additionally this happened on his watch:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4_-_G_LIbrary.jpg

The Roman war raged on with very poor leader luck. However, the Great Library started to produce much knowledge. Eventually the G-man returned and started building an interesting idea called the Hanging Gardens. But the civilization entered the Middle Ages before it was completed.

Not much going on in this thread ........ therefore I decided to give some information, which may stimulate some discussions:

When you go for 20k victory, it is important to do so from the very beginning: found the city as soon as possible (unless you choose to use your capital)
put every effort possible into your 20k city, neglecting the rest of your civ
An important point is to increase production in your 20k city by making it grow fast. On the other hand, building a granary is IMHO an unexcusable waste of precious shields (unless you have shields to spend before using a Great Leader).

Thus the obvious method is to join workers to your 20k city. Regardless of the fact that these workers cannot improve terrain at other cities and reduce pop in other cities.

And you join workers as soon as they (as citizens) can work improved tiles of the city. Of course, you have to have enough food and happiness (luxuries, lux tax).

Team tao joined 6 workers in the ancient times: 1870BC, 2 in 1725BC, 1475BC, 1225BC, and 230BC reaching pop 12.

This gave us maximum production capacity, which was urgently needed because we got only 1 Great Leader before 300AD.

That is assuming the the RNG grants you GLs, of course. We didn't get our first until ~1230AD. :sad:

I feel that we're playing the 20k game very well, but it's hard to be in the running with a prng that is one-sided against you.

That is assuming the the RNG grants you GLs, of course. We didn't get our first until ~1230AD. :sad:

I feel that we're playing the 20k game very well, but it's hard to be in the running with a prng that is one-sided against you.
We had the 1st Roman war 1950BC, whereas you started nearly 50 turns later 690BC.

For a long time, we did a defensive war with the only intent to fish for Leaders, whereas you moved ahead aggressivly, but of course with less Leader chances.

And we also had 30+ consecutive elite wins in this game without a Leader.

OK it's been a long time coming but here it is....

-----------------------------------

Team jeffelemmar – Ancient Ages Spoiler

Goal
For this game, we are pursuing a 20K victory with our second city – Utica. However, we decided that if this wasn’t going quite to plan, we would be prepared to go :hammer: . This approach would effectively scupper our chances for a UN win, or trading for Modern Age resources for the Space Race. So it was effectively 20K, Conquest, or bust. Since this is 5CC, and we are commercial, we felt RCP was not absolutely essential – but if the opportunity turned up we would go for it.

Initial Moves
The spot for Carthage would be fairly important, so we moved our worker onto the mountain to get a better view. There was nothing amazing there, so Carthage was settled on the spot. Research set to The Wheel on maximum, which we eventually learn in 2950BC. Hopefully our neighbours would not possess this tech, and we would be able to trade it around. Spend a few turns scouting the immediate area for a good 20K spot, and then send warriors south to find a friend. In 2900BC we produce our first settler and after much deliberation, send it northeast to grab the spot between the BGs, whale and hills. We also considered spots to the south, either near the wool, or the sheep, but we didn’t fancy the corruption problems or defendability issue. We eventually settle at these points, but we needed to get our 20K underway ASAP. In 2850BC we meet our first rival – Rome. Not exactly the Ancient Age neighbour that everyone wants! In 2710BC we settle our designated 20K city – Utica.

Consolidation of Power
In 2550BC we discover CB, and start research on Writing. In 2470BC, we pop another settler from Carthage and send it towards the wool in the south. We hoped Rome wouldn’t beat us. In 2350BC, Rome learns IW which is a bit annoying, we need to get a move on with our research. Trade CB to Rome for Pottery. Rome builds a city by the wool area we were hoping to nab :( , so we divert settler to the sheep instead and build Leptis Magna in 2150BC. In 1500BC, we settle Theveste to the northwest of Carthage next to the hills. This will allow us to keep an eye and have access to the ivory there. In 1700BC we learn Writing and start research on Mapmaking as a crutch if our Colossus build in Utica gets beaten, and so we can start getting contacts. In 1350BC, we build Hippo on the hills to the south of Carthage for its strategic positioning and production potential for the up and coming war on Rome.

Keeping ahead of the game
Disaster strikes. In 1300BC, the Vikings build Colossus :eek: , so we quickly change plans and start preparations for building of the Oracle. In 1225BC we research MapMaking, and start building galleys. In 1075BC we research Mysticism. In 1025BC we meet our first overseas friend. They’re not really any better than Rome! In 975BC meet another, slightly friendlier AI sharing the continent to the northwest. After researching Literature, we decide that a Republic govt. would be much more suited to our long term plans, so we follow this path. Build the Oracle in 950BC and start work on the Great Library.

The Carthage-Roman War of 730BC – 50BC
We decided that since Rome owned the only source of iron, this would be the time to strike and strike decisively. Rome is still building the pyramids, so their Legion production would be minimal. If we didn’t take this opportunity now, we figured we would probably be :spank: for the rest of the game. In 710BC we raze the town of Pompeii. A stack of mercenaries and archers head towards the iron hill in an attempt to pillage it, with the slim hope that our GA does not get triggered. In 610BC we pillage their iron. At this point, we have only seen one legion, which has been fortified in Rome for the entire time our pillaging stack moved towards the Roman iron. In 550BC, we raze the town of Virconium. In 290BC we eventually raze Rome :yeah: . In 230BC we settle Leptis Minor two squares southwest of the ruins of Rome allowing us quick access to iron and wool, but must disband Hippo to maintain 5 cities. In 190BC, we raze Antium. In 170BC, we raze Veii. In 110BC we build the Great Library. In 90BC, we get a Great Leader attacking an archer :bounce: . Send him towards Utica in preparation for rushing the FP. In 70BC we learn Maths and HBR from the Glib. In 50BC, we give Caesar peace and he gives us all his cities and Construction. We then rush the FP with our leader before giving cities back to Caesar.

Development of the Carthaginian empire
In 30BC we settle Sabratha next to the wool south of Carthage and disband Leptis Magna as a result. A foreign power has started landing settlers on our shores – annoying. One particular warmonger demands we give him literature. We decline, so he declares war. In 110AD we learn Republic and get a 3 turn anarchy period. We then beeline towards Monarchy in an attempt to grab the Hanging gardens. In 330AD we start accumulating more contacts and by 410AD we know everybody. In 360AD we learn Currency from the GLib and enter the Middle Ages, where we also learn Engineering and Feudalism. In 370AD we declare war on the Romans again for leader faming purposes, but to no avail, they’re not producing enough fodder for our bloodthirsty warriors . We learn Monarchy and in 420AD Utica builds the Hanging Gardens. The wonder cascade falls to a couple of civs who know Feudalism.

Utica
We chose to have 20K in Utica rather than Carthage due to the power of the palace pre-build. Our main objectives for successfully completing 20K are to:
1. Keep the tech pace extremely slow - there are a few scientific civs out there somewhere, so this might be tricky. However, we have been fairly successful with us and AI simultaneously entering MA around 350AD. The Middle Ages wonder cascade is absolutely horrible, and we hope to be under control of at least 4 out of 5 wonders.
2. Perfectly executing prebuilds for wonders.
3. Get our GA to start at the perfect time. We have been lucky in managing to suspend the start of our GA for this long.
4. Also, a few leaders here and there might be nice :) .

Improvement build dates for Utica in the Ancient Ages:
Built a temple in 1870BC.
Built The Oracle in 950BC.
Built The Great Library in 110BC.
Rushed a Forbidden Palace with our MGL in 50BC.
Built a library in 70AD.
Built a colosseum in 290AD.
Built the Hanging Gardens in 420AD.