Can we get an education system going? Science is great but it doen't really contribute to the over all happiness of the civs. Once a wonder is gained like the great library or the tech of education, could the libraries and universities become more efficient? or perhaps schools become availiable. The overall effect of which in middle size cities would be to increase the quality of life and cultural points.

The good/bad management of the government could be taught in schools and have an effect (which may be evident a few turns later) by the children, now adults, acting on what they have seen in recent history. The effect schools could also be that inventions and science increase also. But then war weariness and sufferange are easier to attain.

Schools would be nice. The affect could be an increase in science research, more ressistance to propaganda, and maybe some other affects that could result from a better educated populace.

Like an increase in effectiveness of hospitals, factories, marketplaces & banks and any thing that education will have an effect on. There might even be a decrease in the size of families and a drop in the growth rate of the cities. Perhaps and increase in corruption or a decrease. An increase in possibility of foreign trade and aliances. Perhaps even the possibility of more collabrative trading of techs.

I agree that there should be more options for city improvements, and schools is a good example. They need to have a game ability that isn't just +50% research though.

I agree.

How about schools have the following effect:

Research +15%
Commerce +15%
Factories +1 Shield
Culture +1 (per city)
Corruption -1%
Pollution -1%
War Weariness +5% (when at war)


So the effect of schools has a broad effect on many stategies

War Weariness +5%?

Depends on what you teach in the schools... ever studied Japan, circa 1920-1945? ;)

It wasn't just Japan then. Even the allied powers taught a pro-military slant at that time. And just thirty years earlier, US schools were saluting their flag in a style reminiscent of n*z* Germany. Yes, I have links to photos as proof too.

Nazi is taboo? :confused:

I was using Japan as an example as it was certainly the most extreme case of educational brainwashing. ;)

Its not taboo per se, I'd just rather not have certain political groups find my favourite game whiel searching for their own filth.

ETA: If you want extreme brainwashing, you might want to consider what is going on in North Korea today. Even the south has a little of this kind of thing, as witnessed by the extreme xenophobia/arrogance of that country. Yes, I know about Korean history, but that doesn't excuse the attitudes of most people I met while living there.

I think the policies taught in the schools, will be based on the current government type and the recent history. So if the Nazi (facist) government is chosen then the schools will encourge the kinds of doctrine that that government indoctrinates and thus have various effects on the population.

A thought here on despotism government. If I build a school in despotism, then the children to adults are taught to fear and taught to work hard. The problems caused would increase corruption and even decrease population growth, maybe. There would be little positive except mayby ferocity of the fighters (warrior type units)

schools is a good idea.

on the point about war weariness - well agreed, depending on what they teach in school one would have more war weariness or less.

I agree, schools should have a broader effect on society, a good example was the +1 to factories, I think we it should have a broader positive effect on production as a whole - a well educated workforce is a more productive workforce, as well as a more creative, innovative - ect.

Going back to the point of WW and the effects of school.s The way I see it, it goes both ways, when you teach in schools the honest appraoch it will increase WW, when you taach the self interenst approach as most government have done, even the so called free societies - then war weariness would be decreased because you would believe your sidee was dong right.

The whole thing comes down to core values, and cultrual characteristics of a society as a whole to see what they would teach in schools. IN the western schools back in the days, sex education was never taught - now most teachers and peopl think it is their responsiblity to teach the kids about this important aspect of life - in a way to try and avoid teenage pregnacy and others noble efforts - of course there is a section of society which is oppossed to this -there reasons just as noble too.

but you get my point . . .

Sorry, I think schools are a bad idea. You can already build universities. Schools are something that is at the local level, not at a city or national level. This is Civ, not Sim City. If you like playing at a local level get sim city.

fair point, yoy can have one libary or one university for a city, but you'd need quiet a few schools per city. Fair point.

How about a School System Then, or something to represent the school's network in a city - I'm not sure what you'd call it.

How about that teabeard?

What would be the point of a school system? To increase Literacy rates? To indoctrinate kids with government propaganda? I don't see how adding schools/educations adds much if anything to the game. I don't think schools should improve research, so what would their use be? When has a great civilization discovery ever been discovered at a school? At a university? Yes. At a Library? Maybe. At a Research Lab? Absolutely. Grade school? Absolutely not. I've never heard of any major discovery occuring at a grade school so I don't think they should give any research bonus. All they are good for is improving literacy, but what effect would literacy have in the game? If Literacy doesn't mean anything then there is no point for schools.

Schools have a more profuound effect then just leteracy - like I said before. A educated populace is a more productive populace. Therefor, if you were to build a school district/system then your people would work better, produce better, less crime as well, which means less corruption I think in civ terms.

The effects could be varied and not specifically restricted to research.

I agree education is an important factor and ought to be included. Schools are certainly more important to society than Libraries, which are already in Civ.

Schools teach the knowledge contained in libraries. Either way though, demographics would have to play a bigger role for schools to matter. So until then, thumbs down.

What would be the point of a school system? To increase Literacy rates? To indoctrinate kids with government propaganda? I don't see how adding schools/educations adds much if anything to the game. I don't think schools should improve research, so what would their use be? When has a great civilization discovery ever been discovered at a school? At a university? Yes. At a Library? Maybe. At a Research Lab? Absolutely. Grade school? Absolutely not. I've never heard of any major discovery occuring at a grade school so I don't think they should give any research bonus. All they are good for is improving literacy, but what effect would literacy have in the game? If Literacy doesn't mean anything then there is no point for schools.
How do you think those scientists developed the skills they needed to get into the universities? Educating the people will result in more productive and creative society. The school's effect on research would be indirect, but it would still be there.

I agree that the effects of the schools would vary depending on your government/moral code/religion/whatever else gets incorperated into Civ4.

I think we can agree that a society that has a school system in place is profoundly differently from one that doesn't. Global literacy rates correspond dramatically with effective school system distribution. And we all know what effect literacy had in enabling the industrial revolution.


For those who don't know, it meant workers could be given written instructions. It enabled newspapers as a viable medium. It allowed for timetables to be useful. Take a walk downtown and pretend you can't read. The amount of unavailable information will shock you.

When I moved to Japan, I had immediate personal experience with this.

I agree education is an important factor and ought to be included. Schools are certainly more important to society than Libraries, which are already in Civ.

But Schools are at the local level, which is beyond the scope of this game. If you want schools play sim city.

And Libraries aren't?

The city I live in has 16 Libraries. It also has around 35 schools. It has 1 university.

You cannot tell me that Schools are a "local concern" while at the same time including Libraries. Cutting out both in favor of universities I can understand, but saying one and not the other doesn't make sense.

what about funding schools changing their abilities. for example with luxeries and a high science rate the schools are going to be more effective than a poorly funded school. in a ddition schools only came into existence around 150 years ago, so what technology would it be connected to. does government type affect what your school's qualities are?

Steady on guys. We've gone from adding a new city improvement to creating an entire SE model based off one building. Let's not get carried away on such details.

And American public schooling in its current incarnation came about 150 years ago. A lot of the tradition of education of the young in Western society would originate in Ancient Hellenes(Greece).

And Libraries aren't?

The city I live in has 16 Libraries. It also has around 35 schools. It has 1 university.

You cannot tell me that Schools are a "local concern" while at the same time including Libraries. Cutting out both in favor of universities I can understand, but saying one and not the other doesn't make sense.

You can think of Libraries and Universities as already including schools. It's just like temples and Cathedrals can be thought of as including Churches. See what I mean? Adding too many redundant buildings equals more work and less fun.

And American public schooling in its current incarnation came about 150 years ago. A lot of the tradition of education of the young in Western society would originate in Ancient Hellenes(Greece).


And remeber - the U.S. School system isn't such a great example to take as well - its one of the worst school systems in all of the world's developed countries. . . surprising that, but then again just look at the infa-structure within the States - Electricy/rail - you name it - you'd think you're in a developing country if it were not for all the fast food joints . ..

You can think of Libraries and Universities as already including schools. It's just like temples and Cathedrals can be thought of as including Churches. See what I mean? Adding too many redundant buildings equals more work and less fun.
No, Temples ARE churches, just without the specific religious connotation (i.e. Christianity). The concept of a Library, a primary/secondary school and university are very different.

Courtesy of Dictionary.com:

Temple: A building dedicated to religious ceremonies or worship.

Church: A building for public, especially Christian worship.

Notice any similarities? ;)

Ok, how about including Shrines and Altars then? After all, those are a micro-version of temples/cathedrals, just as Schools are a micro-version of Universities. How about including wells as a micro-version of aqueducts? See, this get's ridiculous.

Schools have more of an impact on society than shrines or wells ever have or will.

They're much more than "micro-universities." Civilizations that have proper school systems vs. those that don't are usually VERY different. You can't say the same about shrines or wells.

You do realize that one of the largest expenditures of tax income is for public schooling, right? That enough should be an indicator of how important they are to society and civilization.

Schools have more of an impact on society than shrines or wells ever have or will.

They're much more than "micro-universities." Civilizations that have proper school systems vs. those that don't are usually VERY different. You can't say the same about shrines or wells.

You do realize that one of the largest expenditures of tax income is for public schooling, right? That enough should be an indicator of how important they are to society and civilization.

And Universities already cover schools. No civ game has ever had schools, and I hope it stays that way because there is too many buildings to build already.

Just as much as Temples should be "covered" by Cathedrals.

You're being selective based on no logic. Schools are more important than Libraries. I would go so far as to get rid of Libraries in favor of Schools.

How does it translate into game terms? It's inconceivable for some tech to come out of schools, so I don't believe they deserve a research bonus.

There are a variety of ways to impliment schooling. Research is only one of them. I don't see why they should have less of an effect on research than Libraries. Primary education raises the bar for all of society and allows potentially brilliant people a chance at higher education. If Einstein was born on a farm and had no public schooling, do you think he would have accomplished much?

Schooling improves all of society. Literacy, productivity, knowledge... these are all positive effects of Schooling. The effects could be varied, from the traditional research bonus all the way to affecting things across the city (but not imbalancingly so).

Does it make sense then that in the year 2000 some cities would be without schools? This is the problem when you make it into a structure because not every city will have them, which is extremely unrealistic in the modern era. And what about private schools which offer superior quality education? I think introducing schools opens a huge can of worms... you'd have to rewrite all the game mechanics basically. You'll have to introduce the concept of literacy, and figure out how that is going to mean something in game terms.

Introducing schools doesn't open up any "cans of worms" that are harder to deal with than Universities. What about state vs. private universities? Technical institutes? Community colleges? Universities are simplified, schools can be the same way. I don't see you complaining about the simplification of Universities. ;)

How does it make sense to have no schools in 2000? Go to Third World countries and you'll see. Cities not having schools in 2000 makes as much sense as cities not having a Courthouse or a Police Station. And yet a lot of the time you won't see EITHER in a Civ 3 game.

Introducing schools doesn't open up any "cans of worms" that are harder to deal with than Universities. What about state vs. private universities? Technical institutes? Community colleges? Universities are simplified, schools can be the same way. I don't see you complaining about the simplification of Universities. ;)

How does it make sense to have no schools in 2000? Go to Third World countries and you'll see. Cities not having schools in 2000 makes as much sense as cities not having a Courthouse or a Police Station. And yet a lot of the time you won't see EITHER in a Civ 3 game.

Well, how about this: if you have a certain number of libraries in your cities you can build a minor wonder called "national school system" which represents schools in an abstract way? It would offer some bonuses, but require alot to maintain.

Again, I would rather have Schools than Libraries. Schools have had more of an impact than Libraries hands down. I would rather you build schools with the option of building a "national library system." ;)

The idea that private schools necessarily offer a superior education is a myth. I should know; I teach at one. :mischief:

But seriously, in Japan at least, private schools cater to two distinct markets; the seriously clever, who would thrive in any decent school; and the seriously stupid, who would have failed the usual SHS entrance exams. In the latters' case, the private school offers the family a way to avoid the shame of having a kid not able to enter SHS.

there should just be a school taxation instead of building all these schools.

I think that's what the bulk of the "science" budget actually gets spent on.

I always thought the science budget represented economic diversions into research and government subsidies.

Although I agree with you Trip - I think that Teabeard has got a good suggestion here.

And if you hear me out I think i can show how it all fits together.

In the ancient times, before there was a schools system, you had liberias and other places of learning which was only available to the very few -usually those in power or with money. Then, afterwards - a public school system was put in place through out a lot of countires - although be it a very basic one to start with.

So, Trip - if you don't mind me saying, I think Teabeard has got the right apporach. It is historically correct to have liberaies and such to be build first, and then after you've build a certain amount of liberais one can say that you've reaching a level of thinking to suggest that you believe education is important - and that it should be available to the masses.

At the time of the Great LIbary there was no public school system.

I think that we should include school's, but Teabeard has made a very valid point here. And I got nothing against a small wonder being built - It should be available to all civ's to build. The Small Wonder could have vast reaching effects throughout your empire - and basically represents you having a public school system through out your empire.

However, like the hoover dam - it gives you a Hydro in every city but then again it doesn't stop other civ's from bulding their own hydro improvment seperatly. I'm not sure how to handle it - but I think a small wonder like Teabeard said is a great idea.

What are the Libraries in Civ supposed to represent, the private libraries of aristocrats or public libraries? The implimentation in the game suggests the latter. Public education has had a much greater impact and if you want to be ahistorical, I would rather lean in that direction. ;)

I'd say it represents the private libraries of the philosopher class ;)

Note that in ancient times, the philosopher class was very talkative, and kept no secrets from each other, not even respecting national boundaries. So even though their libraries were private, that didn't mean they didn't get read by others. However, they didn't get readby teh masses - only by those who would have been most able to mke use of the information in them.

maybe schools can be a small wonder, that way it can put a school in every city like most of us experience. a school can be deermined by a sub-set of the science advisor, ie what the curriculum is. a science-based school would make great unis, a arts absed system would make better colloseums and a literacy based system would improve relations with other nations. or something.

There is no society without an educational system. In ancient societies things are taught by eldars or medicine men, then come philosophers and scholars, then monasteries and education by churches and finally education is institutionalised by the governments. Education is always there and the science budget is imo representing public funding of education. There is no need for a special school building as education is, although in different appearances, generic to every society.

There is no society without an educational system. In ancient societies things are taught by eldars or medicine men, then come philosophers and scholars, then monasteries and education by churches and finally education is institutionalised by the governments. Education is always there and the science budget is imo representing public funding of education. There is no need for a special school building as education is, although in different appearances, generic to every society.

Absolutely correct. Maybe education could be represented through a slider or something?

now we move from a small wonder to a slider - the old adaj - give em a yard and they'll take a mile comes to mind here.

I disagree with you mr blonde - the type of education system your talkin about is basically old stories and tales handed down genereation after generation or old herb lore and such - That kind of education was different in comparison to the Great Library where not only did they just record knowledge but sort to gather new knowledge.

Also Education in the form of schools is a completly different kind then to the one your talkin about -they didn't have maths education in your old way model - verbal model and many other sciences as well were not known, it was more of a verbal form of recording history and tales and other such practices - tradition and that. This is completly different from the libary model where the elite would gather and exchange and learn old and new ideas - you can not call what your refering to an education system in comparision to the schools/libaries system.

I think you are making an incorrect comparison.

I agree with a slider, but what impact would it have? Maybe they should abandon science and lux and instead add education and a health/welfare slider. Education would increase the science output and add to happiness as the other would increase growth (less corn needed to fill the pool) and also add to happiness.
To what extent is to be discussed, but pure science funding and luxury dont feel like "real world", imo.

I always saw Luxury as money the government did not take in taxes and people did not put toward developement. The only two other directions that trade can go is into luxury wealth or the military.

I always saw Luxury as money the government did not take in taxes and people did not put toward developement. The only two other directions that trade can go is into luxury wealth or the military.

That is what I thought, but I guess in Communist societies it really is money spent by the government on arts and entertainment. I think most of us agree the slider system can be greatly improved from what it is now.

I think of anything, the only imrpovement the slider system needs is more fractions of percentages. Maybe 5% would do about right. aLso, research beakers should spill over into the next advance or the computer shoul auto-MM the reserach for max efficiency, with parameters from the player of course.

@meniwa:
The ancient educational systems (pre library and school) were not as useless as you describe it. How would you transport information without a written alphabet? Do not mistake these stories as simple tales- they transport information in an easy to remember way. If you enjoy such a story because it is entertaining you dont forget it and the contained information. The human mind stores information when packed into a story or a picture much more easier than pure dry numbers or equations. The story system was very efficient and modern ditactic techniques have their basis there.

yes, but don't confuse the recording of history with advancing in and finding new knowledge.

Yes, I remeber a story a thousand years ago, but I have made no new knowledge, i'm just reciting the old tales.

Difference between this and the libaries/Great Libary is that new knowledge was also sort after. It was a revolutionary way of learning, and of exploring the new . . .

Libraries are a written record and can hold more knowledge then oral tradition, but both are based upon the 'narrative paradigm' described by Mr. Blonde above. I do agree that the Library system usually encouraged the gathering of intellectuals, as did Universities. Its the colloboration of minds that causes science to advance.

I have only read part of the thread.

It might be nice to have different civ's affect eachother by level of education and other things.
Mainly i mean to represent the real world situation where the western world has a very high level of eductation, but also high payment, causing science to increase for us. Uneducated jobs however move to other countries (asia in real world situation) As they have lower payments there. So while science is increased, production could be decreased.

With the higher payment in the western world, we have a much bigger gnp than the countries that actually produce stuff (in asia). With that, we are able to buy the stuff they produce.

The western world only has a small portion of the world population. Asia has a large portion of the world population. Asia produces lots of stuff. The western world consumes lots of stuff (way more than their share of the world population).
This hangs together with the difference in gnp (or gnp per capita) and thus the difference in job payment.
(i just can't help to think of it as that we are kind of abusing other countries. They produce, we consume. Sure we don't use military force to achieve this, we just somehow got them into this economically)

I think it would be nice to implement at least some of this real world macro economy model in civ.

It would require HUGE changes in the civ gameplay system, but its just something i think of now. I think it would be a good change that will seperate civ4 from civ3 considerably. It aint easy of course.