View Full Version : Ludwig Van Beethoven was actually Black, so why are we taught otherwise?


BOTP
Oct 14, 2004, 04:56 PM
Contrary to popular belief, Ludwig Van Beethoven was actually Black.

Here are some academical sources and eyewitness acounts that verify this fact. (Note that Beethoven's mother is said to be a "Moor")

From J.A. Roger's work, "100 AMAZING FACTS ABOUT THE NEGRO WITH COMPLETE PROOF", written in 1957.
The following is his proof:

Frederick Hertz, German anthropologist, in "Race and Civilization," refers twice to Beethoven's "Negroid traits" and his "dark" skin, and "flat, thick nose." (pp. 123 and 178).

Frau Fischer, an intimate acquaintance (i.e sexual acquaintance) of Beethoven, describes him thus, "Short, stocky, broad shoulders, short neck, round nose, blackish-brown complexion." (From R. H. Schauffler, The Man Who Freed Music, Vol. I, p. 18, 1929).

In speaking of the immortal Haydn, who was Beethoven's teacher, Andre de Hevesy says: "Everybody knows the incident at Kismarton or Eisenstadt, the residence of Prince Esterhazy. In the middle of the first allegro of Haydn's symphony, His Highness asked the name of the author. He was brought forward. "'What!' exclaimed the Prince, 'the music is by this Blackamoor? 'Well, my fine Blackamoor, henceforward, thou art in my service.'"
Carpani, who originally related this says that "Haydn's complexion gave room for the sarcasm." And that Haydn had the title of "second professor of music but his new comrades called him "The Moor"." (G. Carpani: Le Haydn, etc. Letter 5. Milan, 1812).

Referring to the above incident, Alexander W. Thayer, perhaps the foremost authority on Beethoven, says, "Beethoven had even more of the Moor in his features than his master, 'Haydn.'" (Beethoven, Vol. I, p. 146). By "Moor" was meant "Negro." Until recent times, the German for "Negro" was "Mohr."

Paul Bekker, another very noted authority on Beethoven, says that "the most faithful picture of Beethoven's head" shows him with "wide, thick lipped mouth, short, thick nose, and proudly arched forehead." (Beethoven, p. 41, 1925. trans. Bozman). Thayer adds that Beethoven was an ugly little man, and no one would be more astonished than the great composer, should he return and see how he has been idealized by sculptors and painters.

Beethoven's family originated in Belgium, which had been ruled for centuries by the Spaniards, who had large numbers of Negro soldiers in their army there. Theophile Gautier speaks of a Belgian type characterized by brown skin and dark hair "a second race which the soldiers of the Spanish Duke of Alva have sown between Brussels and Cambrai."

In short, the general description of Beethoven, even to his frizzly hair, fits that of many an Aframerican or West Indian mulatto. In the Southern States Beethoven would have been forced to ride in the jim-crow car.

Everything indicates that Beethoven, one of the greatest musical composers of all times, was Black. Why aren't we generally taught this? What are your opinions on this?

pawpaw
Oct 14, 2004, 05:29 PM
never was taught he was any color, only german ( and thus ASSUMING he was white )

Pangur Bán
Oct 14, 2004, 05:49 PM
Cool BOTP :lol:

You should repost that in the Severus thread ;)

bombshoo
Oct 14, 2004, 05:51 PM
Same pawpaw..Never even thought about it...I guess its possible, except weren't there paintings of him?..I doubt he was full black (like someone from Congo, or Zimbabwe black), Like read the other thread about Romans being black...Alot of those terms used were applied to Arab looking people, and even olive skinned people up until fairly recently...



I am not sure how racist the Austrians were at that time so I am not sure if it would even be horribly strange for him to be black. I wouldn't doubt him to be slightly Medditerrianian looking at all..

Look at pictures of princesses and kings and queens from this time...They look like Ghost, black to could easily be just dark skinned to us.

Pangur Bán
Oct 14, 2004, 05:53 PM
Err...I don't think BOTP is being serious...;)

BOTP
Oct 14, 2004, 05:56 PM
Err...I don't think BOTP is being serious...;)

Of course I'm being serious. There's been several documents on Beethoven's negro complexion, hair, family history amongst other things. It's not a Beethoven theory, it's a Beethoven historically documented fact! It reminds me of how the Egyptians are suppose to be white but yet all of their heiroglyphics are black, lol!

bombshoo
Oct 14, 2004, 05:57 PM
I figured, But still before anyone else believes it...I mean if its all true statements and stuff, its actually decent proof...

Pangur Bán
Oct 14, 2004, 06:04 PM
Of course I'm being serious. There's been several documents on Beethoven's negro complexion, hair, family history amongst other things. It's not a Beethoven theory, it's a Beethoven historically documented fact! It reminds me of how the Egyptians are suppose to be white but yet all of their heiroglyphics are black, lol!

Well, Beethoven wasn't black. I'm still assuming this is some kind of mischievous wind-up.

Here's a contemporary portrait of Beethoven:

http://www2.sjsu.edu/depts/beethoven/description/images/hofel_web.jpeg

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/photodraw/portraits/beethoven.jpg

Here's a modern drawing based on a picture of his life mask:

http://www.unheardbeethoven.org/images/leon1.jpg

BOTP
Oct 14, 2004, 06:07 PM
I don't understand why you woudl say he wasn't black? :confused: People whom specialise in Beethoven all agreed that he was Black. Women whom have had sex with him say that he was of Blackish-Brown complexion. Letters written about him and his teacher, in his lifetime, call him, and his teacher, Hadyn, "Moors". Back then, if you were called a Moor, then you were Black - that predates to the Crusades to the earliest of my recollection. How is it not backed up by anybody special? The most reputable Beethoven historian said that he was Black. If Alexander W. Thayer, "perhaps the foremost authority on Beethoven" isn't "anybody special", then please tell us which historian, who specialises in Beethoven, is somebody "special". Why is it so hard to just believe that Beethoven was Black, especially when historical evidence supports this.

BOTP
Oct 14, 2004, 06:11 PM
Well, Beethoven wasn't black. I'm still assuming this is some kind of mischievous wind-up.

Here's a contemporary portrait of Beethoven:

http://www2.sjsu.edu/depts/beethoven/description/images/hofel_web.jpeg

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/photodraw/portraits/beethoven.jpg

Here's a modern drawing based on a picture of his life mask:

http://www.unheardbeethoven.org/images/leon1.jpg

Yep. Portraits are so accurate and precise. I bet if a protrait was drawn of MLK as white would you agree with the artist? When the greeks drew Socrates as a tall and strong figure, despite him having a deformed head and being short, they were telling the truth. But hey, what can I say, portraits don't lie to us, right ;)

BOTP
Oct 14, 2004, 06:13 PM
I am not sure how racist the Austrians were at that time so I am not sure if it would even be horribly strange for him to be black.

Back then, not many people would have dared to say that one of the greatest musical geniuses of all times was Black, especially in high-brow, more elitist circles. It would have been abhorrent for those people to say such a thing, if it were not indeed a truthful satement.

Pangur Bán
Oct 14, 2004, 06:18 PM
Well, no reputed historian that I know of says he is black.

Anyway, he has a "von" in his name, which no black immigrant to Germany-Austria could ever have. But he does have somewhat of a mediterranean appearance, that does not mean "black" in the way that any modern reader would understand it.

BTW 1, late 18th/early19th century Europeans were pretty racist,more so in Germany than elsewhere. I guess the portrait painters and people who met him must have engaged in a conspiracy of silence. A few vague references don't cut the chase for such a well-sourced period, place and person. Go and learn how to use historical sources sensibly, then come back. ;)

BTW 2, Moor never meant Negro, it meant Moor.

BOTP
Oct 14, 2004, 06:24 PM
Go and learn how to use historical sources sensibly


All of these are reputable sources i.e. reputable historians that SPECIALISE in Beethoven, reputable anthropologists, a woman who actually had sexual relations with Beethoven, letters written about Beethoven when he was alive, eyewitness testimony from when he was alive etc. Everything that I originally posted has the appropriate references i.e. author, book, volume, or who the letter was written by and the year of its writing. These are historical pieces of evidence written and said, during Beethoven's lifetime and not long after his death.

Pangur Bán
Oct 14, 2004, 06:25 PM
Yep. Portraits are so accurate and precise. I bet if a protrait was drawn of MLK as white would you agree with the artist? When the greeks drew Socrates as a tall and strong figure, despite him having a deformed head and being short, they were telling the truth. But hey, what can I say, portraits don't lie to us, right ;)

No actually, there are no depictions of Socrates tall and strong. :p

If I saw a portrait of MLK as a white man, I'd know it was lying because I've seen pictures of him and I know he actually was black.

When the only evidence is hundreds of thousands of pages of literature and contemporary portraits, with the former making no reference to his Negridity and the latter making him white, I've got to assume that maybe I should believe them.

Portraits may not always be completely accurate, but they're usually vaguely accurate...perhaps making the subject slightly better looking.

BOTP
Oct 14, 2004, 06:26 PM
I guess the portrait painters and people who met him must have engaged in a conspiracy of silence.

"History is lies agreed upon."

-Napoleon

BOTP
Oct 14, 2004, 06:30 PM
When the only evidence is hundreds of thousands of pages of literature and contemporary portraits, with the former making no reference to his Negridity and the latter making him white, I've got to assume that maybe I should believe them.

Again, read the historical documents - you love to go against what is academically accepted, even where there is absolutely no reputable evidence to support your invalid views. it's pretty much well accepted now in academical circles that Ludwig Van Beethoven was Black - he was of Black origin with Black skin and could most accurately be described as a Mulatto or a "Blackamoor". IMO that means that Beethoven = Black. Beethoven was "more of a Moor than Hadyn, his master". Hadyn was called "The Moor", even "the Blackamoor" - Beethoven was more of a Moor than Hadyn, so how was Beethoven not Black?

Lonkut
Oct 14, 2004, 06:31 PM
Everything indicates that Beethoven, one of the greatest musical composers of all times, was Black. Why aren't we generally taught this? What are your opinions on this?
As I understand it he was acctualy half black. Every half black that has done something that we still remeber today has at least a white or non-black parent. And maybe he was more white than black.

Pangur Bán
Oct 14, 2004, 06:33 PM
All of these are reputable sources i.e. reputable historians that SPECIALISE in Beethoven, reputable anthropologists, a woman who actually had sexual relations with Beethoven, letters written about Beethoven when he was alive, eyewitness testimony from when he was alive etc. Everything that I originally posted has the appropriate references i.e. author, book, volume, or who the letter was written by and the year of its writing. These are historical pieces of evidence written and said, during Beethoven's lifetime and not long after his death.

Not really.

Go on, give me a list of modern historians who say that; give me their names, their works, etc...

BTW, none of those specially selected sources actually say he's black.
Bit of a problem for you, isn't it? :eek:

Like I said, and no offence intended, you need to learn to treat sources better. You are looking at these sources already prepared to interprete them one way. You show no regard for the context. You try to explain the sources in a very distorted way ("Moor meant black" for instance: even if it was occassionally used to mean that, was it being used to do so there?). And you omit all other sources, dismissing it vaguely as some kind of conspiracy theory. That's fine if you're talking to the common street kid, but you won't convince anyone with even the slightest training in a historical (or any other associated) discipline.

TBH, I don't care what race Beethoven was. I would be prepared to accept this, but your not going to convince me with this

Since my experiene tells me that you'll do nothing more than repeat yourself, re-enact the same flawed approach or insult me, I'll probably cease reponding on this thread (for now at least). However, I will if you offer some serious evidence.

Good luck with that BTW :goodjob:

SanPellegrino
Oct 14, 2004, 06:35 PM
that is interesting, never heard this before. I googled it and could only find english sites, none in german :eek:

there is evidence, but it is disputed, there is no proof. It is possible, but keep in mind that a lot of germans are/were far off from the "tall, blond" cliché, since we were in the middle of all kind of trecks for millenia.

SanPellegrino
Oct 14, 2004, 06:37 PM
here (http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=405797) is an interesting link that shows both theories and has a lot of links. (It is actually a discussion who was more black, Bob Marley or Beethoven :lol: )

BOTP
Oct 14, 2004, 06:48 PM
Not really.

Go on, give me a list of modern historians who say that; give me their names, their works, etc...

BTW, none of those specially selected sources actually say he's black.
Bit of a problem for you, isn't it? :eek:

Like I said, and no offence intended, you need to learn to treat sources better. You are looking at these sources already prepared to interprete them one way. You show no regard for the context. You try to explain the sources in a very distorted way ("Moor meant black" for instance: even if it was occassionally used to mean that, was it being used to do so there?). And you omit all other sources, dismissing it vaguely as some kind of conspiracy theory. That's fine if you're talking to the common street kid, but you won't convince anyone with even the slightest training in a historical (or any other associated) discipline.

TBH, I don't care what race Beethoven was. I would be prepared to accept this, but your not going to convince me with this

Since my experiene tells me that you'll do nothing more than repeat yourself, re-enact the same flawed approach or insult me, I'll probably cease reponding on this thread (for now at least). However, I will if you offer some serious evidence.


I've listed and constantly mention reputable historians that have specificly specialize in Beethoven's career YET YOU STILL DONT BELIEVE ME ? , named anthropologists YET YOU STILL DONT BELIEVE ME ? , a woman well aquinted with him, and who actually had sexual relations with Beethoven YET YOU STILL DONT BELIEVE ME , letters written about Beethoven when he was alive , YET YOU STILL DONT BELIEVE ME ? eyewitness testimony from his collegues [b] YET YOU STILL DONT BELIEVE ME ? Again , It would have been completley abhorrent for those people to say such a thing, if it were not indeed a truthful and accurate satement. Atleast admit that my evidence is valid and decent. What more can I give you. Besides these references to reknown books, authors, memoirs, book volmes, and letters that I've presented, the only other valid resource I can give you is this site

http://www.africawithin.com/kwaku/beethoven.htm

Adso de Fimnu
Oct 14, 2004, 07:59 PM
Ludwig Van Beethoven was actually Black, so why are we taught otherwise?
I certainly wasn't taught that he wasn't. I see no reason whatsoever why a person's skin color should determine my views on him. Why, then, must people bring such things up? Are you trying to prove blacks aren't inferior?-- because I know that they aren't. Are you, then, trying to prove people of African descent are superior, or what? What is the point?

Knight-Dragon
Oct 14, 2004, 08:16 PM
It doesn't matter if it's a black cat or a white cat. If it catches mice, it's a good cat.

Closed. Getting pointless.