MINISTRY OF STATE AUTHORIZED VIOLENCE 980 AD -

CHIEF OF STAFF

PROVOLUTION

Returned from Exile in the Desert Town of Kagemusha

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I will establish Three Military Army Command Centers and Two Naval Command
Centers. I will therefore appoint no less than Seven Military Staff Commissions
in the Japanatican Imperial Force from the MSAV.

I will establish the following positions, which are all important jobs.

MSAV can offer the following Staff positions, in which two warrants relocalization to Kagemusha, the Area 51 of Japanatica.

Serving in the Central Military Command of Kagemusha

General Minister of Procurement and Logistics and Exploration
in charge of the Japanatican Exploration Expedition
GENERAL OF MINAMI ARMY
Southern Imperial Japanatican Army - Hero Ronin of Roma
Gerunshi

CIVANATOR

Grand Admiral of Military Intelligence and Police
in charge of the Japanatican Privateer Corps
in charge of Imperial Commando of Seven Samurai


ALI

GENERAL OF KITANO ARMY, Kitano and Zarnia Provinces

CYC

Northern Imperial Japanatican Army - Hero Samurai of Fanatikku
Zojoji

CHIEFTESS

ADMIRAL OF SHIKEN NAVY
Eastern Imperial Japanatican Navy
Port Solema


CLASSICAL HERO

ADMIRAL OF SHORAI NAVY
Western Imperial Japanatican Navy
Zojoji



FUTURE MILITARY POSITIONS WILL BE:

AIR MARSHAL OF THE JAPANATICAN AIRFORCE

id like to apply for the post of General Admiral of Military Intelligence and Police
in charge of the Japanatican Privateer Corps.....can you change the rank of General Admiral to Grand Admiral?? its just such a oxymoron General and Admiral

Remember that you don't have any legislative power before November 1st 0.00GMT.

Honorable Judge Gert-Jani
Take it easy, this is the transitional take-over, I am not sleeping in this period, I am passing the necessary military reform package from here. Personally, we will see other cases where you find a less documented political approval of policies than this term.

I'd like to apply for the deputy position, I look forward to working with you for another term :)

Civanator, you are welcome once again :) As always, welcome to the family, and pack your gears for Kagemusha, report both in the RPG Casino thread and in Kagemusha Town.

ali, you are more than welcome to join the Strategic Central Command of MSAV in Kagemusha, the AREA 52 of Japanatica (52 Cards in a deck). Please report in as a new resident in the Kagemusha Towns thread and in the Casino RPG Thread. :)

So the war has come to us. who would of thought all or debating with to the south for nothing, This is the second time they have invaded us with no declaration of war. we need a effective response.

PREPARE FOR WAR!!! - the president

I wonder what we shale rename our iroquios province. Mr military leader are you advocating just taking some of their stratigic citys or.....
taking over their nation. And as for their capital i think we should kill the men, enslave the woman, throw the babys off the topic of their walls. we should burn the whole city down and salt the earth. as for hiwarth (the bad guy boss) we should bring him to our capital city, give him a fast trial then hang draw and quater him. then we should send a peice of him to the french, china and zulu to show what happens to our enemys, with a right of passage agreement to show our good faith. The last peice shale be sent to babylon with a demand for 5 gold per turn.

We could even use this as september 11 like think and use it as an excuse to kill alll our enemys e.g. rome and babylon, before we colonise the next conteint. in a godfather context it would be like how michael killed all his New Yorker enemys before he moved the famaily to los vagas.

Lets wipe out Iroquios and babylon, no one would slap our hands if we did. (if you want we can make up some evidence to link babylon to the invashion)

Remember that there is still 1 more turnchat for term 3. Any instructions/actions may change during your term.

Chieftess

As I told Gert Jani, no need to police me. I wait patiently for Term IV, and I am not overstepping any boundaries. However, I am in mmy full right to prepare the transition military government until the day we are to step to the occasion. In fact, I will debate this with my future deputy Civanator ahead of next TC, as I got his MSN.

I would rather concentrate on way more unruly elements around the bloc :)

I was wondering wat was my jurisdiction of my advisory roles ourside the Japanticia privateer corps?

Grand Admiral Ali

Your advisory roles are threefold:

Military Intelligence

Your job is to gather military intelligence on foreign military force composition, forecast their gain of unique units (Relevant to Russia, USA, France and China), investigate and
analyse military force compositions and communicate these force compositions to the right military generals, which is Cyc (France, Rome and Zululand), Civanator (Babylon and Iroquois and overseas exploration of new land), Western Admiral (Russia and China) and Eastern Admiral (Aztecs and Americans). You will also make a short report to the FA every turnchat on new developments which require diplomacy to preempt war, or to assure that foreign units leave our lands.

Military Police

You are to run the Military Police units garrisoning cities of Japanatica, and to oversee smooth transition of city management during revolutions and to reassert control over conquered cities. Define city security and control needs and communicate these to General Cyc and Civanator. Also look into the needs for courthouses and police stations in order to combat corruption. Corruption is also on oyur agenda here.

Privateer Corps

This Corps is the secret naval special forces of Japanatica. Your mission is to post instructions to the designated player how these would be used and to inform the public on why certain special covert operations are needed. Key missions may be to sink other ships colonizing new islands, sink ships invading other nations on our continent and to get rid of unwanted intruders without us declaring war. You can also get rid of foreign explorers in order to reduce their map coverage and intelligence access.

TERM IV MSAV NAVAL DOCTRINE BILL 980 AD, Section 1C Privateer Flotilla

Passed, with a majority of 9-6 Votes

Localization of Fleet HQ in Kagemusha, under the leadership og Grand Admiral Ali

The number of Privateers would be a base of 5 privateers, with up to 2 reserves to be built in order to replace eventual losses, that would be the very limit of our Privateer Project. This Reform Act will back Grand Admiral Ali when he asks Governors for production quotas.

I hope this was a fulfilling work instruction Grand Admiral Ali. :)

Provolution
Central Military Command Kagemusha
Area 52 Cards

CIVANATOR

General Minister of Procurement and Logistics and Exploration
in charge of the Japanatican Exploration Expedition

Your advisory roles are threefold:

Military Procurement and Logistics

Make sure that all the military reforms are followed up in the Governor build queues, making you the effective liaison to contact all governors in order to meet the benchmark reform buildups throughout the 3 turnchat military reform period starting this turnchat. This means everything from building the navies and marine corps units, to disbanding obsolete military units. This also means sending units to Kagemusha and Grumpypuss for disbandment, as well as contacting the Domestic Minister for upgrades of these. Conclusively, you will also make proposals for military roads, fortresses and so on, in order to sustain our offensive and defensive capabilities.

General of the Southern Military District of Hairando, Edo and Roman Province

You will lead all campaigns against the Iroquois and the Babylonians based on polled doctrines. You will lead all the Swordsmen of Japanatica, as well as the two horsemen units and a section of 8 Samurai and 4 Cannons (Upgrade catapults), the rest of the military are military police units in our cities and the remainder belong to the Northern Military District of General Cyc in Zojoji.
You got this Reform to back you up:

The TERM IV MSAV MILITARY REFORM BILL, Section B1

7 Votes
Liberate South Viet-Rome and Silk Monopoly (Pisae, Veii, Cumae, Mauch Chunk)

6 Votes

Iroquois Naval Wonder Surprise (Mauch Chunk, Grand river and Salamanca, require)

Conquest of the Grapes of Wrath Steppes (Ur, Elippi, Uruk)
West Coast Naval Strike and Grapes Monopoly (Akkad, Nineveh, Elippi)

The interpretation of this poll would be that Liberate South Viet-Rome and Silk Monopoly (Pisae, Veii, Cumae, Mauch Chunk) is an established doctrine to be followed in the upcoming war. However, with 3 runners up with 6 votes and no navy to speak of, we may extend the conquest to Salamanca and Grand River. I will repoll the Iroquois Doctrine based on this poll prior to the first Term IV turnchat or ask Civanator to do it. In the meantime we go for Southern Rome and Maung Chunk.

About the Babylonian Doctrines, we will use the Conquest of the Grapes of Wrath Steppes (Ur, Elippi, Uruk) before the Western Navy is built, and when the Western Navy is built, we will poll between which of the first doctrine and the West Coast Naval Strike and Grapes Monopoly (Akkad, Nineveh, Elippi) should stand.
However with Leonardos Wonder in Ur, it is a simple guess.

Expedition Commander of the Japanatican Overseas Colonial Expedition

Explore new lands and settle new ports with this reform backing

Do we need an Exploration Expedition ?

Passes with a majority of 17 of 21 votes, with 2 duels, one no navy and one abstain.
The majority wanted 3 Galleons, and we will add one or two frigates to escort these in due time. I expect General Minister Civanator to poll Expedition Force force composition of 12 units, and let him poll these.

Prov - I'll apply for a MSAV position.

Honorable Chieftess, II President of Japanatica

CT, you are welcome to choose either the Western Naval Group with a Marine Force or an Eastern Naval Group with a Marine Force :)

You are welcome to serve and get full operational control over instructions in your territory. Also know that the Western fleet is located in Zojoji and the Eastern Fleet in Port Solema. I will also give you some flexibility on force composition of the Samurai/Musket ratio if you can persuade local Governors to build Cavalry. (Since Samurais are obsolete by now).

TERM IV MSAV NAVAL DOCTRINE BILL 980 AD Section 1B

Passed with a Majority of 9-1

Headquarter Port Solema

2 Frigates Escort
4 Galleons with Primary Samurai and Secondary Musket composition
3 of the 9 yes votes wanted cannons, which would be factored in as two out of 16 units in the Marine Corps

Eastern Navy Marine Force Corps Composition, identical to Western

16 units

Samurai 12
Musketeers 4
Cannons 2
Engineers (worker) 1
Cavalry Scout 1

Admiral Chieftess get the privileges to develop a force composition of 16 Marine Corps units, which should minimum have 2 cannons, and an overweight of 2:1 Cavalry and Samurai to Muskets. She is also in charge of Operational Planning and instructions on Eastern Ocean Operation and military instructions
targeting Aztecs and USA.

I would like to keep my personal army of Domo Kun, who rule over Odawara (and soon, all Edo) with a fuzzy fist, and enforce my will upon my citizens. They're my hairy monster samurai. :p

Epimethius, you are free to keep an entourage of 3 units, your pick, as a compensation for the Forbidden Palace debacle, but you would report to Grand Admiral Ali who runs the Military Police. :)

Honored Minister Provo,

I would like to request a special contigent of troops stationed in my offices as my personal bodyguard. And also, why does an admiral run the MP? Shouldn't it be a general?

Blackheart, I call the shots here, MI6 in the UK is run by the navy and so on.

Oooh in that case I would like to apply for the position of supreme admiral ;) :lol:

Governor Blackheart

You will run the military police in Fanatikku, maximum of three units, and they need to hold the City, you will report to Grand Admiral Ali for that matter :)
When your ideological stance adapts somehow to the reforms, we may consider a position for you of more significance.

I was wondering if the Admirals and Generals could make threads regarding to each of our roles so than we dont crowd up the MSAV HQ with our various information?

just a question anyone, when and why did the name change to ministry of state authorized violence has it been this whole demogame or just last term and the new term?

To Provolution i had just a thought, i was wondering if u would consider possibly another command to be vacant in which the commander will be in command of elite units a special forces or special service command similiar to that of Rangers, SAS, SS, Commandoes, etc where as mentioned that Elite units be under a diffrent command within the ministry and grouped to pack more punch in an offensive or hold a stif line of defence

Nobody

MSAV, a cool title, has been around since Term 2 DGV

Ali
Great Idea, but first I need a general who wants to run the Special Forces.

Grand Admiral Ali

You convinced me.
All elite troopers, to a maximum of 8, are to be enrolled into the Imperial Commando.

I was wondering if the Admirals and Generals could make threads regarding to each of our roles so than we dont crowd up the MSAV HQ with our various information?

Might be a bit too many threads in the citizens forum though. I think this thread is fine. The advisor threads don't have a lot of discussions like they used to back in DG1.

Governor Blackheart

You will run the military police in Fanatikku, maximum of three units, and they need to hold the City, you will report to Grand Admiral Ali for that matter :)
When your ideological stance adapts somehow to the reforms, we may consider a position for you of more significance.

Me conform?! Never!

Blackheart, then you need at least to swear an oath of loyalty and fealty to the people of Fanatikku, and then you need to fight the wars you are commandeered to fight :)

Blackheart, then you need at least to swear an oath of loyalty and fealty to the people of Fanatikku, and then you need to fight the wars you are commandeered to fight :)

Oh ok, in that case what's the oath I needa swear. But I don't want to command a large invasion army, just the forces that protect Zarnia.

Honorable Governor Blackheart

What if I let the Governors run the homedefense unit of Zarnia, we can establish provincial national guards of low end units like pikemen, still subject to the central command of Kagemusha. However, letting the Governor and Deputy handle internal security of the Province with police units. Police units would be units only meant to stay within Zarnia and never leave.

Honored General Provo,

I agree to your plans for low end units as "police" but I want all of the security units to eventually be upgraded to their most advanced state.

Also, whatever units the MSAV needs to be built for the greater good of Japanatica, Zarnia is willing to listen and commence the training if it is possible at the moment.

looking at that the governors want to control the police forces and home guard defence my position in that area is no longer needed i was wondering if i could have the imperial commandoes in my jurisdiction with the other duties i have as grand admiral....for intellengence gathering, etc.

Grand Admiral Ali,

you will still oversee the Governors police forces, and if needed, you are free to draft these with 24 hours warning before a turnchat. This time is needed so they can post new
instructions on maintaining happiness in cities. However, the Imperial Commandos is a beastly force, of 8 Elites only in 2 galleons. The missions of this Commando is to be polled in the joint chief of staff committee, since these will take on some very dangerous but perhaps needed missions. Like saving the Romans, stopping a Wonder project, conquering a capital, seizing a resource and so on. Ok Grand Admiral Ali, now you control the Imperial Commandos and the Privateer Fleet.

in the manner of speaking in regards to the escorts i think we should build more escorts to defend the transports we dont want a civ to have a lucky shot and hit our transports..also to provide stronger artillery support to the marines and imperial commandoes

Grand Admiral Ali

Granted, add another Galley, but use your privateer Corps for escorts.
This other Galleon should have 2 cannons and 2 workers (Combat Engineers)
You should also cooperate with the Western or the Eastern Navies for escort on such missions.

Nobody

MSAV, a cool title, has been around since Term 2 DGV


Meh, I'm not a fan of it, but that's my opinion.

From Foreign affairs to Military, certainly are a renisance man Provolution, heh.

Anyway, I shall return under the rock known as Aerospace Engineering again, still too busy to try and get back into the DG again. But I'll continue to pop in every now and then mainly lurking...

Provolution, remember always smite our enemies harshly if they choose to attack.

Falcon02

Good to see you again. I am struggling with extreme hawks and extreme doves, and tried to make a compromise of a defensive war with a retaliatory strike. However, none of the sides wants a compromise and they want to poll each other to death. Well well, it is all about the Lunar eclipse and Presidential election in the USA....

I would like to be part of this. I would prefer to be in charge of an army, if that is possible.

Honorable Classical Hero

Only one unfilled position, and that is the Admiral of the Western Navy, facing China and Russia, the most hazardous ocean with the longest coastal line to protect. You are also in charge of covering naval activities towards Babylon and France as well, and will carry a Marine Corps for that purpose under your command. Sounds good ?

Honorable Classical Hero

Only one unfilled position, and that is the Admiral of the Western Navy, facing China and Russia, the most hazardous ocean with the longest coastal line to protect. You are also in charge of covering naval activities towards Babylon and France as well, and will carry a Marine Corps for that purpose under your command. Sounds good ?
I'll snap it up.

Grand Admiral Ali

Your Imperial Strike Commando is ready.
The hero from Oil Springs, Helloween Knight and his Seven Samurai are now ready for challenging overseas special missions. Part of your challenge is to strike at a strategic overseas locations, and bring back surviving troops. Foreign Affairs and MSAV will poll a joint policy and military operation discussion and poll on what these special missions should be like. I also want you to contact the governors of Kitakinu, Zarnia and Hairando for making these produce one privateer per city from these cities.

Mainchai
Furuyama
Zojoji
Stovokor
Windurst
Pete

This would provide you 6 privateers, which is more or less what the privateer force should be. Alternately, we can have 5 privateers with 2 reserve builds later.
You need to contact the governors on your own and see how these can fit into their build queues. Please act quickly and get these into their agenda as soon as you can.

MSAV
P

Request to First General Provolution:
#1: Set City Goals for the end of the War.
#2: Upgrade the Caravels to Galleons, please (coordunate with Zarn). Also, once reisitance in Salamanca is ended, upgrade the Horseman there to Calvery (coordinate with Zarn).
#3: Your Adjuct must have dipped into the Sake. He's reporting that China's Stronger than us. Care to explain? Actually have your Deputy explain, it was on his watch.
#4: You now have a Leader! Fill it with Sammurai, or Calvery? Or will you redirect it to Domestic for a Veii Rush of the FP? (again, coordinate with Zarn...)

President SD3

According t our Demographics, we are number two producer globally after China, and we have the shortest military service globally, with only 3 years service per male, number 9 of all nations. Our military is globally number two to China, but we are locally the hegemon. This supports my call for a larger navy and various expeditionary forces and the need for an exploration corps and 2 Marine Corps. Since our main adversary is overseas, we need a stronger navy. Magellans Wonder would be important here.
A limited Southern Army and a small modern Northern Army would cover our continental security needs, but we need badly a strong navy with a Marine Corps.

I believe our military dropped to number 2 when we lost at least 7 Samurai(maybe more) in the blood orgy that took our troops well beyond MSAV's initial planning. In the process, we have lost the favor of the only two nations that were polite to us: China and America.

Sadly, it seems our bloodlust is too extreme for even those jackals to stomach, so we are now friendless in the world. There was no mandate yet to take Salamanca, and so we have now robbed a nation of its culture so that we can covet the benefits of their hard work. What an embarrassing duck hunt we have allowed ourselves.

Finally, can someone please explain the push onward to Oil Springs? While Salamanca can likely be justified by Provo's silver tongue, there is no record of the need to push for the new Iroquois capital. I do not blame Provo for this, however. The blame falls squarely on our outgoing President's shoulders, along with her soulless cheerleaders. The chat reads as an embarrassment.

We lost 8 Samurai and some 5 Swords I guess, according to my numbers.

There were no official instructions on which cities to take and not take.

Asd I am somewhat of a soulless cheerleader, I was unaware that we pushed on to Oil Springs. I felt we should have ended after taking Salamanca. There was jurisprudence to do this, but I see no reason to move on to Oil Springs.
And, Esteemed MSAV Chair, I ask that our first Great Leader be used to create a Forbiden Palace. We desperatly need the reduction of corruption.
And the fact I'm mayor...

SaaM
MoT
Soulless Cheerleader
Democrat

Looks to me like the instructions stopped at Veii, although an MSAV poll allowed for further conquest.

When in doubt, STOP!!

Is that so hard to do??

I would lean to agree with the moderates here and stop more conquests, plus we need to
reform our military. Vote Freeze borders in the poll if you want to, or other options.

Provolotion id like to request that the marines provide some military support for some of my future operations

army guys, did we take oil springs? Or is the map in the picture in this poll (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=103760) acurate

That is indeed an acurate map, Nobody. Oil Springs is under Iroqouis control, and hopefully will stay that way.

good...............

Grand Admiral Ali

Please contact Admiral Chieftess and Admiral Classical Hero for Marine Support.

MSAV TERM IV HAS INTRODUCED MEDAL AWARDS FOR MILITARY ACTION

FOR CREATING A GREAT LEADER JAPANATICAN 5 SWORDS ORDER
FOR CREATING 4 ELITES JAPANTICAN SERVICE MEDAL
FOR CONQUERING A CITY JAPANATICAN BATTLE CROSS
FOR CONQUERING A CAPITAL JAPANATICAN IMPERIAL STAR
FOR CONQUERING A WONDER DRAGON STAR
FOR WOUNDED UNITS DOWN TO 1 LIFE PURPLE SNAKE
FOR RESCUING A BESIEGED NATION
OTHERS

MSAV Generals and admirals, please debate which military actions based on wars you are commandered to fight should award to a medal in this game. I have given instructional authority

Civilian Military Advocation Honors

Military technology Honor
Military Cultural Conquest Honor
Military Strategic resource acquisition honor (trade)
Military Alliance Honor (FA)
Military Reform Honor (Domestic)

Minister Provolution,
Could you please visit Minister Zarn's budget thread and provide some analysis of how many and of what type of unit are available for disbanding for shields in the recently conquered cities. Depending on the outcomes of several polls (including some of yours) I expect to request as many as 9 rushes of improvements in this area.

Thanks - MOTH

Minister Provolution,
I have a couple of questions from some line items in your TC instructions. Its possible that these are oversights or it may be that I am mistaken on requirements. Would you please be so kind as to provide some comments?

Post #11: 1 Caravel In Eastern Ocean To Cattaraugus Upgrade To 1 Galleon
I don't think that Cattaraugus (or any eastern city) has a Harbor and that this upgrade would not therefore be possible.

Post #12: CUMAE GREAT LEADER TOJO AND ELITE CAVALRY TO ZOJOJI
Is it your intention to create an Army? If so then the Culture Ministry would like to request that the Army win one victory before moving to Zojoji as this will enable us to construct the Heroic Epic and Military Academy small wonders.

Thanks - MOTH

Minister Provolution,
I have a couple of questions from some line items in your TC instructions. Its possible that these are oversights or it may be that I am mistaken on requirements. Would you please be so kind as to provide some comments?

Post #11: 1 Caravel In Eastern Ocean To Cattaraugus Upgrade To 1 Galleon
I don't think that Cattaraugus (or any eastern city) has a Harbor and that this upgrade would not therefore be possible.

Post #12: CUMAE GREAT LEADER TOJO AND ELITE CAVALRY TO ZOJOJI
Is it your intention to create an Army? If so then the Culture Ministry would like to request that the Army win one victory before moving to Zojoji as this will enable us to construct the Heroic Epic and Military Academy small wonders.

Thanks - MOTH

11.
Indeed, Cattaraugus HAS a harbor, which makes it a perfect location for our Eastern Navy.

12.
I will change the instruction at once, thanks for informing me

For the first turnchat, I ask that our current caravel exploring the NE side of the continent head down to the "sea chokepoint" and fortify on the leftside of that tile. This will give us +3 tile visibility.

There were no official instructions on which cities to take and not take.

Indeed! First, the ChickenHawks band with the *We want the FP in Veii* faction to scare the country into thinking Hiawatha is about to attack. (They cite a canoe sighting as proof.) Once the fear was roused in the people it was easy to convince them to throw down the gauntlet at Hiawatha's feet. Then Doctrine was paraded around to prevent a reasonable re-evaluation of war goals. Then the MSAV sleeps and our military goes berserk.

The ChickenHawks get to overrun Iroquoia and the *We want the FP in Veii* crowd have another chance to get their way. Iroq province is a great name. We should get Dubya and his boys to study this. They could probably learn a few things.

Donsig

Well, they did attack, and CT was the acting President at that time, and Civanator was on his way out. I was not allowed to do anything but setting up the doctrinal policies for my own term. What happened afterwards was my responsibility. Your late poll could only serve to delay the game, as people should have discussed these war objectives long ago. Now war objectives are more democratized, given that previous MSAV generals had full control until a peace-settlement was offered.
Hiawatha attacked us, and failed of course, and the political debate was on the strength of the counterattack. I must admit that conquering all these cities was beneficial to a military reform, and that Pyramids and Sistine was so attractive war objectives that we could not stop there. Where the people failed in rushing the FP and
asked for a Cavalry Army, I simply disbanded swords to improve Veii.
In the end I was more for the Doomsville solution. So calling this a conspiracy is wrong, it was more a causal chain of events we were not prepared to.
At least we have doctrinal discussions and polls on all nations now, and feel free to participate in these debates.

Call it a conspiracy or a casual chain of events, I don't care. It stinks either way. So, Hiawatha attacked us? Was that before or after we ordered his troops to leave? If after then we are responsible for the war for we provoked it. We also did not even discuss possible ways to avoid Hiawatha attacking us! The ChickenHawks didn't want to avoid it, they egged Hiawatha on.

I find it funny Provolution how you defended the beloved Doctrine before the war but now you say how it was doomed. Yep, funny how you can defend the Doctrine when it agrees with something you want and abandon it totally when it goes against something you want. I think *Flip-flop* is the technical political term for this phenomenon.

I still stick with my doctrines, and we actually repolled after a certain point, so we did everything by the book. But where were you when you should have defended the beloved Iroquios, campaigning for Presidency? You should have preempted all this with some work on our foreign policy.

heh, you should know by now that when the AI's "attack flag" (using programmer terminology) is triggered, that there's usually no way you're gonna get them to leave. In fact, constantly asking them to leave might trigger that flag. You're making it sound as if the AI has never been programmed to sneak attack.

I still stick with my doctrines, and we actually repolled after a certain point, so we did everything by the book. But where were you when you should have defended the beloved Iroquios, campaigning for Presidency? You should have preempted all this with some work on our foreign policy.

You defended the Doctrine when I posted a poll about what to do if Hiawatha attacked. Your stance then was Doctrine was in place and shouldn't be repolled. Of course you didn't want it repolled then because you wanted to stop the building of the FP in Odawara. Once the war was on (and you wanted more and more of Hiawatha's territory) then it suddenly became OK to drop your beloved Doctrine and repoll. As, I said earlier, *flip-flop* is the technical term that describes this.

A major campaign issue in my bid for the Presidency was building the FP in Odawara since we were one turn away and that is what the people had asked be done. When I last visited these forums that had been once again confirmed in a citizen poll. While I was gone, Donovan Zoi changed his vote in the poll making it a tie and giving our lame duck president free rein on the FP issue.

Had I been here in the forums I would have done what I could have to prevent this. RL got in the way. Saturday I drove to NC. Sunday I drove to Florida. Monday and Turesday I spent driving people to the polls and picking up absentee ballots for voters in Orlando. Weds, morning I slept and Weds. afternoon I went to Cocoa Beach. Thursday I drove back to NC. Silly me, I thought the US Presidential election more important than the demogame. You may file a complaint with the Judiciary if you want.

You defended the Doctrine when I posted a poll about what to do if Hiawatha attacked. Your stance then was Doctrine was in place and shouldn't be repolled. Of course you didn't want it repolled then because you wanted to stop the building of the FP in Odawara. Once the war was on (and you wanted more and more of Hiawatha's territory) then it suddenly became OK to drop your beloved Doctrine and repoll. As, I said earlier, *flip-flop* is the technical term that describes this.


Well, the doctrine was in place, but if you read the chatlog, I called for a doctrine, plus I accepted taking Salamanca. However, I was never a big fan of Veii, I was one of the very few Doomsville and Roma supporters, as you can read from my public poll voting record. Your poll proposal on the other hand was designed in order to run a delaying action you and Epimetheus tried to maneuver with the intent to sabotage the last turnchat and make it not happen. If you had thought on how to handle war objectives preemptively BEFORE I brought it up, you might have added the necessary premises for a purely defensive war, or as Blackhearts little Maung Chunk advance. However, I knew that the majority of the people wanted both Maung Chunk and Southern Rome. Doctrines were also meant to be reviewed from turnchat to turnchat, but the problem was that I had no formal authority that very turnchat, and President Chieftess saw no formal instructions from MSAV 3. term. However, I consider all doctrines polled for Term IV as still valid and in place, and these would be followed to the letter during a repoll.


A major campaign issue in my bid for the Presidency was building the FP in Odawara since we were one turn away and that is what the people had asked be done. When I last visited these forums that had been once again confirmed in a citizen poll. While I was gone, Donovan Zoi changed his vote in the poll making it a tie and giving our lame duck president free rein on the FP issue.

I cannot follow all your doings that weekend, with the messy FA election, Presidential election, Forbidden Palace, the new MSAV system you guys tried to shoot down without adding a constructive option, localization of FP adn there were like 7-8 subgames this weekend. Since you and some others were so bent on stopping the military build-down, partially done through this Vintage War with the ostensible version that you did it for the childen, peace, love, drugs, rock'n roll and whatever. Our maintenance costs ate our gold, you blatantly attacked the reform for political reasons, not objectively assessing what was good and what was bad as the more prudent people here.

So what the Iroqi Vintage War gained us

Disbanding/losing useless swordsmen veterans (14)

Building a Cavalry Army that took Oil Springs and opened up Heroic Epic, Military Academy, Intelligence Agency and Pentagon as Wonders
Conquered the Pyramids and Sistines Chapel in Salamanca.

Building a corps of Elite Samurai that may give us Great Leaders later

Conquered six cities that may give us more production, more military units (now workers due to railroads in 8 turns) and access to the east

More streamlined and delineated borders

A real Eastern region worth building a Forbidden Palace for

Had I been here in the forums I would have done what I could have to prevent this. RL got in the way. Saturday I drove to NC. Sunday I drove to Florida. Monday and Turesday I spent driving people to the polls and picking up absentee ballots for voters in Orlando. Weds, morning I slept and Weds. afternoon I went to Cocoa Beach. Thursday I drove back to NC. Silly me, I thought the US Presidential election more important than the demogame. You may file a complaint with the Judiciary if you want.

I am sorry about your election, it must have been very heartfelt due to the excruciating circumstances that has taken place last US election. As a cotozen of a different country I am still somehow detached, but recognize that the Presidency of a Superpower is more important than a computer game.

This brings me to the final point. We do play this game to win, for game mechanics or ideologywise. We have various factions in this game, which makes it the more interesting. I would say the FP drama made this game more interesting, as other agendas could profit from this strife with two evenly balanced sides. Tim Bentley did statistics, you had legal please, Epimetheus had kittens and so on, crazy stuff, but entertaining. I was given a war situation slightly different from what I expected (I took over 0000 1 Nov in line with Gert Janis statement that I could not do anything before then.
First you do anything to block my transition, and then you blame me for not using the transition to stop Chieftess. All I did was to poll Term IV, and my latest poll in the Iroquois war, to either give back Salamanca and stay with the doctrine, or go ahead and line up the border farther south was another dilemma.

All in all, 6 cities, access to 6 wonders (two already built), clean and easily defended borders, a longer coastline in the East blancing the Western one and finally a better climate for a smaller army and a new regime (democracy or republic) are all good things that came out of this war.
Besides, Monarch is too easy level for this game.

I am not filing any complaints to the Judiciary over this, that would be pretty dumb and a waste of time. Only idiots play legal fights for fun above playing the strategy and deeper politics of the game. I was just tired of a disorganized military organization, lack of delegated command and so on.

Just a few points of contention, Provo.

Disbanding/losing useless swordsmen veterans (14)

I am a bit surprised by this comment.

No soldier that fights for Japanatica is useless. These men either died for our country or rolled up their sleeves to help rebuld what they were told to destroy. I am a bit dismayed that they were chosen for battle over our more advanced units, all to save a few bucks? And I am quite taken aback by the fact that their selfless efforts have been publicly disparaged by their High Commander. :(


Building a Cavalry Army that took Oil Springs and opened up Heroic Epic, Military Academy, Intelligence Agency and Pentagon as Wonders
Conquered the Pyramids and Sistines Chapel in Salamanca.

Yes, all these things are great and have made our nation even more powerful than it already is. However, the fact remains that game mechanics will not allow this continent's remaining three powers to engage us in battle on three fronts. Think about it.

In RL, the Zulu would be sh....aking in their boots after watching our exaggerated response to the Iroquois encroachment. Instead, they are dutiful set of 1's and 0's that knows better than to mess with a nation 3 times its size. For this they will likely pay dearly in the near future.

So all these riches have just made the game a less rewarding bore. I appreciate your efforts to try to give Salamanca back, but that kind of outside-the-box thinking has no business in a game being taken over by the embryonics(as you call them ;) ).

Yes, steadfast and resolute, we will play the Civ3 victory line straight and narrow, as if we were competing in some sort of contest. There is no time for political dilemmas, or even honor for that matter. Just "what's in it for Japanatica........."

Sad, but not the fault of MSAV.

This Civ game was won long ago by our country. Unfortunately the demogame was lost in term one of DGIV. Since it would take some major catastrophes to lose the Civ III game we should be concentrating now on how to salvage the deomgame. Take a step back Provolution and look things over. Try looking at things without the *they're after my authority* filter on. I for one did not know (nor do I know now) your *official* demogame position. Since I never knew (nor cared) just what authority you held/hold I never worked to undermine it. To me you were/are a citizen holding a certain publicly expressed viewpoint. I responded, as a citizen, to that viewpoint. Rather than answer the points I raised you complained about a poll I posted, argued that the Doctrine be upheld no matter what, complained that I didn't enter the debate early enough then eventually made excuses for abandoning the Doctrine you had previous argued to uphold.

Meanwhile, citizens are changing votes in polls to bring about non-decisions which only gives the President power to do what she wants vis-a-vis the forbidden palace. Then war comes (and I still haven't heard exactly how the war started), the MSAV forgets the Doctrine, again letting Ms. Presidfent go hog wild raping the Iroquois.

Look at what has happened and tell me this is a democracy game.

It is time to stop worrying about whether we will win the Civ III game and time to start trying to save the demogame.

I am a bit surprised by this comment.

No soldier that fights for Japanatica is useless. These men either died for our country or rolled up their sleeves to help rebuld what they were told to destroy. I am a bit dismayed that they were chosen for battle over our more advanced units, all to save a few bucks? And I am quite taken aback by the fact that their selfless efforts have been publicly disparaged by their High Commander.

Honorable DZ

Their self-sacrifice as citizens and persons of Japanatica is always respected, and when I referred to their uselessness in combat situations, I referred to their training and ingrained handicap of close quarter fighting. The problem of swordsmen are their relevance in a more modern world, and since there is a law in Japanatica that prohibits swordsmen to learn about new weapons, I saw no other recourse than to offer them a labor subsidy plan introducing them to construction work in war torn territories. But indeed, the soldiers fought well, and in fact we lost no one so far thanks to my bloodless campaign. Since I took over MSAV IV Term, no military formation in Japanatica has fallen in combat. In fact, all of the 14 brigades of swordsmen may be disbanded, but the elites. The plan by using swordsmen in the final mop up action in Niagara Falls, is against a militarily inferior enemy that can barely hold their own. The plan with using swordsmen now, is to maintain a reserve of elite samurai for special missions in the future (this term), of which we will have a public discussion of where these could be deployed.


I will also heed respect for your code of honor and realism you want to instill into the game, but I fear that humanism, good values and empathy with the small human beings in this world alone would not cut it. We need to reorganize a couple of things along the way to get closer to that real life dilemma you seek, with preprepared responses and other measures that makes this game closer to the real world. And yes, add ethical dilemmas if you want to, that would enrichen the game. Like a real general upset by weird politicians, I would confront a protest abstain with a protest razing of Salamanca, in order to force a withdrawal or a short conquest to realize the military wonders. And yes, that may have made the game too easy.

But let us go forth with the histographic or diplomatic victory, and do some of the proposals I came with, like returning POWs and so on. Game mechanicwise not as rational, but would make sense in a real world.
But try to explain this to the kids that just love to see a computer unit kill another computer unit and get some big wonder with a lot of gold?
I prefer some more self imposed handicaps like returning slave workers and so on, at least to keep it interesting without destroying strategy development.

This Civ game was won long ago by our country. Unfortunately the demogame was lost in term one of DGIV. Since it would take some major catastrophes to lose the Civ III game we should be concentrating now on how to salvage the deomgame. Take a step back Provolution and look things over. Try looking at things without the *they're after my authority* filter on. I for one did not know (nor do I know now) your *official* demogame position. Since I never knew (nor cared) just what authority you held/hold I never worked to undermine it. To me you were/are a citizen holding a certain publicly expressed viewpoint. I responded, as a citizen, to that viewpoint. Rather than answer the points I raised you complained about a poll I posted, argued that the Doctrine be upheld no matter what, complained that I didn't enter the debate early enough then eventually made excuses for abandoning the Doctrine you had previous argued to uphold.

I was elected for Term IV alone, and that Iroquois attack took place before that could nominally be applied from 1 nov 2004, 00 00. Yes we had differing views, my view was a limited conquest down to Southern Rome, and let the Iroquois stop their conquest. However, I PMed Civanator to tell CT to stop after the designated target areas for the Iroquois Doctrine. For some reason, Civanator did not post these, since Civanator was the MSAV Minister. Well, more or less the doctrine was held when I entered office, since the doctrine is to be reviewed and reevaluated after each TC. The Poll offered a retreat from Salamanca in order to follow the original doctrine and a further conquest in order to get a shorter external borderand control the East Coast.
I polled these two options and abstained, since I would let this be a decision without recommendation. Militarily we would certainly crush the Iroquois, but it may hurt the Demogame play balance and kill the challenge.
Well, maybe CT wanted an epitaph, wanting to be the first governor of Iroq, if you read the chatlog - in fact, we should vote for the Province name to be Iroq :) . For her, it was maybe important to make the last TC of her presidency a triumph, with industrial age, a new province she could name and so on, not to mention a crushing military defeat. What amazed even more, was that the same peaceniks wnated cavalry army of all things in place of Forbidden Palace rush, now that they voted Veii.

Meanwhile, citizens are changing votes in polls to bring about non-decisions which only gives the President power to do what she wants vis-a-vis the forbidden palace. Then war comes (and I still haven't heard exactly how the war started), the MSAV forgets the Doctrine, again letting Ms. Presidfent go hog wild raping the Iroquois.

Well, I do not speak for myself, but I see that some of their veteran players wait to the end by tossing their vote, and if they have a swing vote, they can trade that for other issues as a last minute leverage. The problem is not public and private alone, but the ongoing poling where you gradually can watch and influence the poll. they should keep these non-published until a certain time of the day, and make final results offfical in some polls, but with public names. This would create a different game dynamic, as no last minute votes could be manipulated to alter an outcome. Since there are no parties in this game, this is the method of some veterans I observed to brinkmanship the polls in last minute decisions in order to capsize an unpopular "majority".

MSAV did not forget the doctrine, and what was done was done at the DPs discretion, until the point in the turnchat Civanator showed up, but then the game was over. I actually tried to reinforce the doctrine in a poll where we returned Salamanca and returned to "Doctrine" territory. You are still free to present a poll returning Iroquois land to their posession if there is majority for it.

Look at what has happened and tell me this is a democracy game.

I think the vision of the game is not strictly democratic, but anarco-syndicalist, no political parties, some argue secret and public polling etc etc. One big happy family is the official ideal and so on. Well, we know better what it is all about. I think the reforms we have seen in MSAV, SA, CA and TA with more offices, clear organizational functions and more orderly reporting is a start. Ministers should work as organizational leaders, not just empowered citizens with WOTP backing and some fancy seal to stamp a poll with. Only through delegating powers and creative mandates, you give teh DG any life. Starting in the other end by discussing legal and ethical rules before that does not ring equally well for someone who wants an entertaining game.
This abstain, public poll etc etc, reminds me of the eternal whining of people from "Save the Whales" , "Amnesty" , "Red Cross" "Jehowas Witnesses" and other "idealist" organizations that hangs on your doorbell to tell you their "truth" and recruit you.

Everyone have different interests in this DG, but at least I find great fun in developing organizations and plans with other people and stick to these with small room of flexibility, in order to see if joint planning and coordination skills gives positive results. This means, we need to make this organizationally challenging and exciting, but not by opening with a lengthy quarrel on laws. I got some paralegal skills through my education, but the vast majority here wants to play CIVS, preferably in an organized context. Democracy is ONE aspect of organized, and democracy alone may not carry the day.
Point is, let people get creative powers and mandates, and let them have the power to act these out in their sector, and rely on their skills for mutual growth and survival, and if they fail, fine, the more exciting.

The democracy part could come in when we have a budget vote thread like in the Congress, where we vote which budget proposal goes through. Would the Military get more money, or the Church, or the Foreign Aid Program, or would we have to trade with them? Or we could vote on which major projects to use workers on, and have 2-5 options. Or we could vote on war objectives and national interest with each neighbor. Or we could vote on tech tree strategies for the entire term, and agree to only allow ourselves 3 alterations.
In order for the DG to improve, we need more organization and cooperation, harder restrictions for flexible choice after we have agreed and more real life rules and actions from our side as government.
Except for that, I could equally play CIV3 solo.

Now I'M getting tired of the whining...

Minister Provolution has appointed me Deputy Minister to replace Civanator who is becoming Vice President. This was done via PM as the Minister has been banned for 3 days (now two, I guess). So it looks like the responsibilty of posting Instructions for Monday's T/C is up to me. In reviewing the save:

We are still militarily strong in the world. It appears our only real threat would come from China, who is Average compared to us in strength. The could declare and start a Domino war, bringing in allies from around the globe. I doubt this will happen, as China is pretty broke and has trade deals going with us for quite a while. But I've seen stranger things happen in a Civ3 game. Except for Grumpypuss, all of our cities are pretty well defended, or can be covered by units in some other city. Therefore, not much needs to be done. I would like to emphasize to the Governors that we REALLY are trying to cut back, if not eliminate unit production. We are now disbanding troops in order to reduce the goldamount spent on our troops. Anyway, below are the Instructions I intend to post, although they may change before the T/C.

1. Attack the Iroquois Longbowman by Salamanca with 1 or both of the Elite Swordsmen next to it.
2. Move the rest of that stack due West, across the river.
3. Move the stack of Vets NW of Niagra Falls SW to the Coastal Cattle. They will attack Niagra Falls next turn.
4. If on turn 1 or two the Stack doesn't capture Niagra Falls, move the Cavalry Army out of Oil Springs N,N,NE to attack and capture it. I believe FA will call for peace once Niagra Falls is ours.
5. Once a peace treaty has been signed, distribute the troops evenly (or as much as conveniently and logically possible) to our perimeter cities.

I would like to ammend your instructions, future Second General:

There are 2 Samurai in each of the Sword stacks.

2A: We should use the Samurai in the Southern Stack as Garrison relief in Oil Springs. (They can reach with 2/3rds of a movepoint to spare, and so can fortify.)

4: References to Calvery Army should be made to include All Necessary Calvery units, as there should be little resistance after 1 turn with 6 units. (There would likely still be some, but only 1-2.)

HonoredGeneral Cyc,

I would like to put in a request to have the spearmen defending Furuyama upgraded to musketman.

HonoredGeneral Cyc,

I would like to put in a request to have the spearmen defending Furuyama upgraded to musketman.

1) Budget is under Domestic

2) It's a waste of money. It is only a regular.

1) Budget is under Domestic

2) It's a waste of money. It is only a regular.

I've got to ask MSAV to ask Domestic don't I? Regular it may be, but it's the only guy defending Furuyama.

@ SDIII - Although I think the original orders would have sufficed, you may be correct in your asumptions. Therefore, I will include your suggestions in the Instructions.

Governor Blackheart, I have forwarded your request. ;)

To Provolution,
if its not too much First General could u please put a list of the number of our troops and how many divisions of each unit ie. samuari 64 etc etc...the city locations and the battle how many units are in each army etc etc...and hows the air force going?

MSAV TERM IV #4 DECREE

DISBANDING OBSOLETE UNITS - FINAL STAGES

Ominato, Niagara Falls and Cumae veteran swordsmen all disband in Wakashio, since it is a very corrupt city and would take 76 turns to build courthouse, and IS on a joint Iroquois and Babylonian border.

Then we are down to 3 Elite Swordsmen who are to be named, Iroqi National Guard.
We keep this in case one of them may create a GL one day. MSAV will never disband elite units unless absolutely needed.

Kagemusha will disband its 2 spearmen, and add spearmen from Furuyama, Osgilliath and Grumpypuss, as well as the one north of Zojoji and finally build a Courthouse.

Then Japanatica will have no spearmen (regular) left.

Then we just reduced the gold cost by an additional 9 Gold per turn.

MSAV TERM IV DECREE 5

REORGANIZATION OF MSAV 3 to 4

Oil Springs will now be the new base for the Imperial Commando of Samurai, due to a port and the proximity to target rich environments in the Southern part of Atarashika. Oil Springs Mayor should also be Grand Admiral Ali.

Zojoji is still the Northern Command
General Minister Cyc

Regent Town should house the Southern Command, due to its linchpin location to Ur, between Babylon and Iroquois as well as poised to run the war in both theatres. General and Vice President Civanator will reside here (or Civanatoria if he prefers).

The Western Navy will be grouped in Zojoji, due to the presence of the Magellan Wonder. However, Admiral Classical Hero will be free to consider Manchai, Stovokor, Pete or Furuyama as well.

The Eastern Navy will stil be located in Port Solema, since the presence of inland lakes may shelter our navy from other ships, especially submarines, in times of conflict. Eastern Admiral Chieftess is in charge here.

Two minor posts of increasing future significance will be:

Marshall of Airforce, located somewhere unknown
and Pirate King of Tonawonda, for one that wants to run the Privateers there under Grand Admiral Ali.
Tonawonda will be S

Military Report for Japanatica 1255 AD

154 Units
114 covered by Monarchy, 40 Gold turn expense

Civilians
3 Settlers (Recommend Babylonian Frontier Settlement, and one overseas)
55 Workers (remember these workers count for the majority of our gold)

I recommend a worker maximum of 75 workers/gold expense, since a new government type as well as new security and upgrade needs may carry such a large burden. We need to expand, but balanced.

I will seek to keep the military at 125 units during Term IV.

Presently we have 96 military units as it stands, representing 62.33 of our total unit count. I want this to gradually increase to 75 %, also included reforms, since we need a modern Army, Navy and then Airforce.

6 Spearmen (soon 0, Zero, all regulars) all goes to Kagemusha
6 Swordsmen (soon 3, three), all goes to Wakashio (Pisae)
8 Pikemen (Veterans, all upgradeable to Musketment)
26 Musketmen (Veterans), soon to be 34 Musketmen with Pikeman upgrades
16 Samurai (8 Veterans, 8 Elites)
18 Cavalry (Veterans)
1 Catapult (upgrade to Cannon)
9 Cannons
1 Caravel (Upgrade in Oil Springs to Galleon)
4 Galleons
1 Elite Cavalry Army


We will see that we will reach a total garrison count of 40 musketmen (6 new muskets) next TC.

We will reach 4 Privateers with the present buildqueue very soon, plus the last one after Zojoji is done by Magellan, a total of 5.

We will reach 59 workers (4 new) next turnchat, and I would like to set the maximum to 75 workers for gold upkeep reasons balancing military. This still gives us room for 16 new workers to be built.

Finally, we need Kitakinu Province to commit to build the following next

Frigate and 2 Galleons

Finally, we need Zarnia Province to commit to build the following next

2 last Cavalry needed to complete Military Reform Plan
Zojojis Privateer and Frigate plus another Galleon

Finally, we need Hairando Province to commit to build the following next

5 Musketman units, half of the National Guard Corps

Finally we need Edo Province to commit to build the following next

Frigate (former Maung Chunk)
5 Musketman units, second half of the National Guard Corps

Finally, we need Itakiji to commit to build the following next

Frigate
Galleon

Finally, we need the Iroqi Province to build the following next

3 Galleons (Oil Springs)

Of these 96 units, further disbands of spearmen and swordsmen will bring us down to 87 units. This should give MSAV a room of expansion of 38 units throughout the Term, mostly within naval and airforce assets, but also some specialist units needed as they arrive.

Looking at the Naval Reforms as polled before.

We got 2 Frigates and 5 Galleons on the Western Navy
We got 2 Frigates and 5 Galleons on the Eastern Navy
We got 5 Privateers in the Privateer Korps(plus to reserve builds)
We got 3 Galleons belonging to the Colonial Expeditions
We got 2 extra Galleons for the Imperial Commando only, where I recommend a steamship escort to be built for these.

The navy will then have a total of 25 Vessels, which gives us a very moderate maneuvering room in our neighboring oceans as well as minimum security.

The land military will cover 100 units. As we presently hold 37 cities, and will expand this to 40 very soon with 3 new settlers we have, we need a minimum garrison of 40 Musketmen soon Riflemen. This only leaves us a room of 60 military land units, which could be broken down to the following.

60 Units

30 Specialty units divided in three national Military Corps

Japanatican Artillery Corps, 10 Cannons
Japanatican Northern Cavalry Corps, 10 Cavalry
Japanatican Southern Cavalry Corps, 10 Cavalry (2 Cavalries short)

20 Specialty tradition and elite Units in the Southern Command

Japanatican Imperial Commando of Elite Samurai, 8 Samurai
Japanatican Iroqi National Guard, 8 Veteran Samurai
Japanatican Iroqi Military Police, 3 Elite Swordsmen
Helloween Knight, Southern Cavalry Elite Ranger Unit

10 Specialty units for a National Guard Musketman Corps
Japanatican National Guard Corps, 10 Musketmen
will add one more Garrison Musketman to
Fanatikku, Zojoji, Odawara, Salamanca, Engha, Regent Town, Yatta, Epolenep, Kagemusha and Bentropolis.

Finally we got an Army Unit in Zojoji of Elite Cavalry

As you can see, I can account fairly for both our continental defense needs and for our external interests. The Imperial Commandos job is a one mission only to seize a very critical objective or to save a minor nation, and to generate Great Leaders we can bring back for wonders.

The Marine Corps will initially only constitute of Drafted conscript Rifleman in order to fill our Galleons (10 Galleons times 4 is 40, one conscript per City to be fair to all our Mayors and Governors in times of War). A Mobilization order will bring our unit count up from 125 to 200, with 40 Conscript Riflemen, and 35 more units to be decided on from the army our navy (could be more cannons, cavalry and veteran riflemen, or ironclads).

I sought to minimize expenses, take into account our need for workers, get a stable planning regime around doctrines for economic and military planning, and to give some room of flexibility in discussing the remaining 35 units in our
potential full war mobilization order.

Great job Provo! :goodjob:

great report minister.
my question is are you planing to draft as soon as possiable or only if we go to war?
If as soon as possiable then ok. But 40 conscripts is kind of pointless.
If only in a emergency, what type of emergency would need a nationwide draft?

The Mobilization Army/Navy will comprise of

40 Conscripts
35 other units. We need a grand national discussion on how the mobilization army should look like, force composition, and then the build queues that should be put in place. Additionally, we need to discuss and poll what provokes a national mobilization.

But what i mean was are you advocating the draft to bulid our marine force of 40 riflemen now (or soon). or do you we would discuss and draft in a emegency (WAR)??

Nobody

I mean draft ONLY during emergency, and we need to define criteria for that.

Frankly, I can't think of any scenario where Japanatica would be under enough of a threat to necessitate a draft. We're simply too powerful. Only if every other nation on the planet declared war on up simultaneously--and all landed forces in our territory at once--could we be threatened enough for mobilization. I simply can't see us drafting our citizens in this game.

Ashburnham

Emergencies may mean, in the scenario of a diplomatic victory, to help a small nation overrun by a major nation to survive for a vote, to stop a future nuclear power, to assure a strategic resource on a continuous basis, stop an enemy completion of a wonder, a full scale invasion on our continent and so on. I think it is arrogant to assume that a draft would never be needed, and ignore a proper discussion and debate on what criteria should dictate a mobilization. Remember, drafts are conscripts and we need more of them.

I agree, almost any large war on the other contient could justify the draft. we would need lots of troops to establish a large beach head.

proper discussion and debate on what criteria should dictate a mobilization Although i have come to see the good points of some of your doctrines. i do think that the draft and mobilization should not be doctrinafyed so that if certain senario happens then we draft/mobilise. Every time these things are needed they should be discussed on their own merits. you might not understand be as i tend to be stupid when i type.

Invy and Nobody thanks for complementing the report :) I am alsways glad to serve you.
Maybe I find you jobs in new military roles when we expand the MSAV. :)

Nobody, you are perfectly right, we need a broader discussion on what predefines a full sclae mobilization .That will not be a doctrine and would be polled after a furious debate between pro-mobilization and anti-mobilization representatives. Mobilization is also subject to the approval not only by a popular poll, but also all governors, the DA and the President with a final get-go clearance for full mobilization. Full mobilization means total war, that is why I propose a solid check of balances to do so.

Therefore , a full mobilization is way beyond a limited MSAV doctrine retaliation war.

Attention Minister Provolution, Urgent.

As Admiral of the wesrern fleet, I really want a modern navy. When are we going to go for Combustion or even Mass production? This is what I think will make our navy superior to the rest of the world. I think ATM we should focus on ships that can transport troops because they are upgradeable.

Maybe a poll on the citizens attitude to how we treat those rogue nations that attack might be in order.

Regards Admiral, classical_hero.

Ashburnham

Emergencies may mean, in the scenario of a diplomatic victory, to help a small nation overrun by a major nation to survive for a vote, to stop a future nuclear power, to assure a strategic resource on a continuous basis, stop an enemy completion of a wonder, a full scale invasion on our continent and so on. I think it is arrogant to assume that a draft would never be needed, and ignore a proper discussion and debate on what criteria should dictate a mobilization. Remember, drafts are conscripts and we need more of them.

Remember, only the governors have the power to draft citizens. Mobilization falls under domestic I think.

Unless we are royally screwed up the <expletive>, our capital under siege, our farms razed, etc. There WILL BE NO DRAFT! I'm not going to force our productive and happy citizens into the line of fire with minimal training and weapons.

Blackheart

Again... you are protesting the unnecessary, draining energy, so I will be short. A draft will be discussed and debated, and criteria for mobilization will be polled after such a debate. You are then free to ignore the results of debates, discussions and polls, so do not speak in determinant grammar, since your goodie goodie oldie oldie abused term of Will of the People (which rests in the sand for the mob of Collosseum) will decide.
So you feel free to ignore the revered WOTP the day of decision arrives....

Nobody, you are perfectly right, we need a broader discussion on what predefines a full sclae mobilization .That will not be a doctrine and would be polled after a furious debate between pro-mobilization and anti-mobilization representatives. Mobilization is also subject to the approval not only by a popular poll, but also all governors, the DA and the President with a final get-go clearance for full mobilization. Full mobilization means total war, that is why I propose a solid check of balances to do so.

Therefore , a full mobilization is way beyond a limited MSAV doctrine retaliation war.


Oh, I promise there would be quite a vocal anti-mobilization side if the need ever arose. ;)

Blackheart

Again... you are protesting the unnecessary, draining energy, so I will be short. A draft will be discussed and debated, and criteria for mobilization will be polled after such a debate. You are then free to ignore the results of debates, discussions and polls, so do not speak in determinant grammar, since your goodie goodie oldie oldie abused term of Will of the People (which rests in the sand for the mob of Collosseum) will decide.
So you feel free to ignore the revered WOTP the day of decision arrives....

Yes, I am sure the MSAV has the powers to bind polls and debates that it creates and force governors and other ministries to follow these MSAV sanctioned "official" polls. You complained about Donsig's poll and its illegitimacy due to who created it, yet you are doing the exact same. So do not speak of anyone else's grammar.

We will see Blackheart, we will discuss it, you only reject the very thought.

We will see Blackheart, we will discuss it, you only reject the very thought.

I already stated my stance on this. Unless by some occult turn of events we find ourselves waist deep in <expletive>, there will be no draft for Zarnians! I consider drafts to be undemocratic and tyrannical. What does it say of us if we force our citizens to fight and send them to their deaths when our voluntary professional army can fight?

People are here to discuss your "occult" turn of events, and decide on what is "occult" or not "occult" enough in order to mobilize, that is the discussion.

People are here to discuss your "occult" turn of events, and decide on what is "occult" or not "occult" enough in order to mobilize, that is the discussion.

As you stated before, there will be a furious debate between pro and anti mobilization. This is just the opening bell for the debate ;)

Attention Minister Provolution, Urgent.

As Admiral of the wesrern fleet, I really want a modern navy. When are we going to go for Combustion or even Mass production? This is what I think will make our navy superior to the rest of the world. I think ATM we should focus on ships that can transport troops because they are upgradeable.

From the Office of the President:

Admiral Hero,

In 10 years, we will develop a working Steam Engine. The people of the Science Department have said that such an engine could possibly drive a vehichle that weighs over a Ton. Currently, we are developing land transport, but it is conceivable that this engine could also drive a naval vessel clad with Iron Plating which resists cannonballs MUCH better than wood.

We will not be able to complete any Frigates in 10 years, and so all Frigate builds would likely change to Ironclads once we secure Coal.

calm down, the draft is only for a emergency. If there was an emergency iam sure the proud citizens of our nation would be proud to fight and die for Japantika.

Also if there was a emergency, i would be in favor of moblising the economy to bulid 40 vetrean riflemen fast, rather than drafting. But these things are only for emegencys.

But i cant really see a emergency like this happening anyway. but we should always be prepared.

Nobody is right here. We need to discuss what IS emergency, in place of this emotional spinal tap reaction. We need an intelligent discussion over this, not slogans.

Excellent. When I last looked, it was six turns until the discovery of Steam Power. It is a start to the more modern navy, at least it won't be made out of wood.

Admiral Classical Hero

you would have 2 Steamships and 5 Galleons, maybe for the entire Term IV. So get used to the thought. :) You can already figure out your plans for securing the Western Ocean.

Grand Admiral Ali

You got 8 elite samurai ready in Oil Springs, your new HQ for Imperial Commando, and I suggest using Tonawonda as your privateer base to cover operations both in East and West. Grand Admiral Ali, please post a thread on what you consider your war objectives could be with your units. Iroq will be your base for a long time. :)

Nobody is right

yes he is, (hell has frozen over)

First General,

I note that all Spearmen are to be transfered to Kagemusha to be "transitioned".

This would include 1 in Grumpypuss.

I would like you to reconsider this particular transfer. Grumpypuss would be a priority target for the French in any war since it holds an unconnected Saltpeter tile within the "First 8".

Therefore, I feel that the spearman there would be better set for "transitioning" at Grumpypuss rather than Kagemusha.

Though that would be a fair point if Grumpypuss were on the Iroqouis or Babylonian border, I really don't think we have anything to worry about with the French. They have been pacifists all game, and there's no reason to think they'll change that anytime soon.

SD3

I agree, disband that spearman in Grumpypuss then, just bear in mind Grumpypuss has a larger growth potential and does not need much aid. I also realize we need Republic ASAP before democracy, since corruption kills badly in our rimside towns. I also consider that a new capital location in the triangle Osgiliath, Zojoji and shorinRyu would be helpful.

To General Provolution,

Id like to send the privateer fleet to patrol the other continient at the eastern coastal areas and begin attacking any ships in the the region in "wolf pack" style attacks to maximise success this fleet, at all cost the fleet should be grouped...I would like to request that 2 frigates from the western fleet be assigned to me to act as scouts for potiential targets and to asses threats, one for the northern area of the eastern coast and the other for the southern area. This fleet will move by sector to sector runs the Aztec territorial waters will be named sector 1, American territorial waters will be named sector 2 and finally Chinese territorial waters will be named sector sector 3 the fleet will maintain operations in each sector for a minimum of 15 turns. Russian vessals will not be currently attacked due to their current weak status. Reinforements will sail to the fleet to replace losses, one ship at a time will return to port to be retrofitted if needed. This operation will be called "Operation Dragonfire". I hope this plan is to your satisfaction General Provolution and I request that it is implemented ASAP starting the fleet operation at sector 1.

Regards Grand Admiral Ali

Whoaaa there cowboy. Since when did Japanatica agree to conduct secret wars and do wholesale slaughter of foreigners?

i dont think privateers should be used until there is a proper poll. that says

Should we use privateer?

Yes
No
Abstani.

And nothing like this

What doctrine should we use

Attack west coast with privateers?
Attack the east coast with privateers?
Abstain (this means we will burn down all our citys.

Doctrinal polls are done, but we needed them to pin down our defense plans, since people wanted to finger in the MSAV pie with their Amnesty International fingers.
Now, they got a preserved Iroq, a plan for responding to Babel and Zulu, and an invitation to the French, so now the WOTP clerics should be satisfied. I will poll something like this.
Will you accept special operations of our privateers for these activities....
and then discuss options, and THEN poll presented options from the discussion. Yes , no and abstain is too easy. That Salamanca poll I presented was needed to either keep Salamanca or leave it, not let stupid game mechanics decide, but the people.
I knew someone could be tempted to abstain, so I made a stance to force a real useful decision. Well, normally I could use the privateers at my will, but I will poll it.
So all sides would have a fair say.

fair enough, but we still need a clear OK from the people before privateers are used. well thats what i think.

Of course, that is a given. I just made Grand Admiral Ali do some creative planning.

hhhmmm yea thought id make the battleplan it seems to be a waste of resources to build a fleet that will never be used as currently we have regional supremacy i dont see why we should attack French, Zulu, Bab, and Iro. However the various nations in the other continent poses a major threat and the only way they can deliver this threat by amassing a fleet with the priviteers we can stop them

regards Grand Admiral Ali

Mmmmm.... MSAV pie!

First General Provolution,

In light of your contention that the Aztec Wonders represent a risk to our eventual victory, I wish for you to participate in the discussion in this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=104831), in preparation for the Emergency Turnchat Tuesday Evening.

Hey General Provolotion did u by any chance base your planning on a attack of Zululand on my previous plans???

Grand Admiral Ali

Actually, the Zululand plan was based on Sir Donald IIIs suggestion, but I think you mentioned that plan as well Grand Admiral Ali. It seems like Tenochtitlan will be spared for now, according to the investigations of Culture Minister. This means that the only conceivable scenarios for your Imperial Commando are the following:

1. Defend Kagemusha against French attack, Sabotage French Horseroad
2 Seize Ellippi from Sea
3. Seize Tugela Diamond Mines
4 Defend Iroquois against third parties
5. Wait for a Mutual Protection Pact and be our first line of troops into that war

Realistically, people of Japanatica do not want us to conduct wars at all this term
If that is the case, MSAV had no losses in Term IV, and we managed to open for
Heroic Epic, Intelligence Agency, Military Academy and Pentagon, as well as conquering the last two cities in the Iroq war. We meet some criticism from the same people, but that criticism would come anyways. It is our job to look for military challenges and discuss them, until we are needed, but they should not attack us for discussing them.

1. Defend Kagemusha against French attack, Sabotage French Horseroad
2 Seize Ellippi from Sea
3. Seize
4 Defend Iroquois against third parties
5. Wait for a Mutual Protection Pact and be our first line of troops into that war


What's #3...? You left it blank.

This is an alternative to Admiral Ali's plans to station troops in the new world. This plan is just a preliminary one.

A rapid deployment force would simply be having troops in transports escorted by naval vessels stationed near the coasts but outside of borders. This would allow us to quickly move halfway around the continent by sea and land in desirable and strategic locations. If our troops are in danger we could also quickly pull them out by sea.

Let's face it, we don't know where the AI will attack so we would have to build bases everywhere, thereby limiting the mobility of our forces. We would also have to build a RR infrastructure to rapidly move our forces, taking away our needed workers. With a naval rapid deployment strategy, these limitations are eliminated.

This sounds much better Blackheart, when you presented it this way. :) Again, there is no problem in using some of each plan. Some fortresses inland will handle some lasting engagements, but a Marine Corps should be in place for long mobile coast runs.

Ive already idiscussed theis mobility idea in the thread i posted about stationing troops in the citzen forum..on another matter General Provolution I was wondering if you would consider disbanding the privateer fleet and replacing them with frigates? since i cannot see any viable use for them before they become obsolete

Grand Admiral Ali, I intend to disband them in our Naval Base at Tonawonda, which badly needs to expand, but they covered our security needs for a while. Since no one wants to
use them, we will spend them on Tonawonda instead, unless someone wants to reduce Chinese shipping.

Grand Admiral Ali, you are correct, you presented the idea first. However, I see that the two ideas can be combined.

Ive already idiscussed theis mobility idea in the thread i posted about stationing troops in the citzen forum..on another matter General Provolution I was wondering if you would consider disbanding the privateer fleet and replacing them with frigates? since i cannot see any viable use for them before they become obsolete
So you would like me to change the privateer builds to frigates?

Yes, Frigates would be better. No one really builds Privateers in vanilla Civ3. In fact, they're not that strong to begin with.

Actually, I just remembered that we can build ironclads. That would be a better choice.

Frigates dont upgrade, while ironclads do. bulid them.

Yeah, make a last minute change to Ironclads, since we seem to get a new navy strategy as the game changes.

Hmm, why am I not suprised to see you in this position Provolution? ;)

5. Wait for a Mutual Protection Pact and be our first line of troops into that war

They will be the first to arive and last to leave. there so cool.

General Provolution I would like to request an enlargement of the imperial commandoes by developing a sub-brach of the imperial commandoes: Imperial commandoes-Special Services...this will consist of 5 veteran units in which these troops will face the same perials as the Imperial Commandoes supporting them, in which to create modern elite units to replace the obsolete elite units of the Imperial commandoes thus the imperial commandoes will remain modern and well-equipped.
regards Grand Admiral Ali

Ali, I wait for nationalism to give you Riflemen.

sure take your time i was just offering a request for the long term planning of the imperial commandoes

Grand Admiral Ali

I see that the Imperial Commando will be extended with 12 more units, and become the lasting presence in Atarashika, and be The Elite Cavalry Helloween Knights, 7 Elite Samurai, 7 Veteran Riflemen and 5 Cannons.

Ali, I wait for nationalism to give you Riflemen.
We have to wait until it is cheap enough to buy, since the Russians do not want to be fair in there dealings.

I know, I wrote wait.

I think it would be cool if the specail force were no longer under the militarys command but under who ever Espionage is given to.

we have a seperate department for espionage?

we have a seperate department for espionage?

Not at the moment, and hopefully ever.

we have a seperate department for espionage?

no, (but i think it would be cool) but i meant who ever has power over espionage. like if forign or the president or military or what ever.

Genral Provolution,

I would like to request if the people approve the stationing of troops overseas that the cities constructed in the new world to support the peacekeepers be under the direct control of the MSAV rather than any governor or domestic minister in which to support peace further

Grand Admiral Ali, we should probably ask for a special status for these enclaves, and probably appoint a special Military Governor for All Enclave cities like Tonawonda and the new cities in the new continent. That could be a fragmented province in itself.
However, such insular provinces has special security needs, and MSAV shall look deeply into that.

Genral Provolution,

I would like to request if the people approve the stationing of troops overseas that the cities constructed in the new world to support the peacekeepers be under the direct control of the MSAV rather than any governor or domestic minister in which to support peace further


Sorry ali, but that's not exactly..oh, what's that word...constitutional? Though I'm sure whomever becomes governor of these enclaves would be willing to work with the military.

Genral Provolution,

I would like to request if the people approve the stationing of troops overseas that the cities constructed in the new world to support the peacekeepers be under the direct control of the MSAV rather than any governor or domestic minister in which to support peace further

What Ashburnham said. That is stepping over the legal limits of the MSAV set by the constitution. Domestic would have direct control until a province is created.

Ali, if the Ministry of Defense tries anything like that, the Ministry of Domestic Affairs WILL see you in court.

Ali, if the Ministry of Defense tries anything like that, the Ministry of Domestic Affairs WILL see you in court.

Or Domestic could just cut all funds and leave the MSAV building dark ;)

sorry didnt mean to step on toes lol

Not at all. Far more worrying is that Provo didn't notice that. ;)

hhmm didnt realise it was against the constitution

It was a given. I wrote that we would set up a governor for that province.
You try to blemish me Epi, but I got my deleted together. Why don't you smoke more and write something funny.

Watch the language. Also, don't start another flamewar between you and Epi

Provolution u have my full backing in the next election id like to request that i stay with your administration next term

Provolution,

Zulu knights and other units are gathering on the border. However, those cities have minimal defense. I request you take the Cavalry and Cannons from Regent Town in Hairando province to defend that area.

Thank you.

To Provolution I would like to request that i build a startagic Reserve Force made up of spare units from garrisons, after some research and information gathering I have discovered that soe garrisions simply too many units defeding them, if u give me 2-3 days i will provide a complete a assesment and notify the governors

Ginger Ale

Zojoji has all the needed forces to deal with any zulu attack. General Cyc will take care of the situation. I also tasked the Imperial Commando to take Tugela for Diamond Monopoly.

I would like to announce that the Iroqi Military Police in Salamanca is laid down.

The new formation will be:

The Castle Border Guards

2 Fortresses
3 Elite Swordsmen
2 Regular Pikemen
6 Cannons

Provo, in the TCIT you say to sue for peace after Tugela, but without FA's instructions or consent, we can't do that, so I suggest that MSAV have a talk with FA first.

No need to be spiky, Blackheart, these are my instructions in case of war, and that is specified. Civgeneral knows what he is doing.

Minister Provolution

I notice that if the Zulu declare War on us, you intend to use our Elite Samurai to try to generate Great Leaders. Do you have a policy on the use of these Great Leaders if we get them? I ask, as after the work you have put in to determine our plans should the attack occur so that the chat can continue, it would be unfortunate if the chat was then immediately stopped to allow us to discuss the first Great Leader we get get. After all if we get a Leader, we can't get another until we use him, and the efforts of the rest of our Elite Samurai would be in vain.

Furiey, excellent input. I will develop a policy at once. I have been busy handling unjust personal attacks by fifth columnist Embryons I had to root out and hang out to dry, otherwise I would have had the surplus energy and capacity to do so.
I overlooked this aspect, and thanks to this excellent contribution, I am actually in a position to preempt the problem.

Well, I tell you the following.

1 Great leader, I will follow the secondary result of the Tojo poll, which means Forbidden Palace until 15 turns left. If less than 15 turns, see option 2.

2. Great Leader and onwards, I make an executive decision on wonder and location jointly with DP, Cultural Minister and respective Governor.
I will here consider other existing wonder builds as well as the Wonder Doctrines.

We basically reuse already relevant polls, which were contested, and opens for a flexible solution everyone can live with. If someone rejects rushing the Forbidden Palace, I will leave their named city undefended and ask for multiple RoPs... :D

We basically reuse already relevant polls, which were contested, and opens for a flexible solution everyone can live with. If someone rejects rushing the Forbidden Palace, I will leave their named city undefended and ask for multiple RoPs... :D

Glad to see one of our leader's doesn't carry grudges ... :rolleyes:

-- Ravensfire

Ravensfire, have you got any humor :) What is it with you grown up men, Rave and Dave, you seem so sombre and void of joyous zeal. :D