If you want a scenario filled with Airships, Analytical Engines (that's mechanical computers ala' Charles Babbage), Steam Tanks, Ironclads and other wonders, all set on an epic World Map in a alternate timeline subtly different from our own then this is the thread for you. I've started it and here's a biq to prove it!

So far I have put together the civs I want in and placed their cities on the map (I'm using Rhye's World Map). The civs are:

European: Austro-Prussia; Great Britain; Republic of France; Nordic Union; Papal States; Poland; Portgal; Russia; Spain
Mid East: Ottoman Empire; Persia.
Africa: Abyssinia; Sokoto; Zulu.
Asian: China; India; Korea; Phillipines; Shogunate of Japan; Siam; Srivijaya.
American: Brazil; Inca Empire; Indian Confederacy; Mexico; New Granada; United States of America.

Starting date is circa 1824. As I stated, this world is subtly different from our own. Here are just a few differences as reflected by the main protagonists:

*France: Napoleon died very early in the Revolutionary wars, allowing many of the decadent states of Europe to get their act together and form their own primitive "nation states". France itself made peace with its neighbours and maintains its status as a republic. France is still the most socially progressive nation in Europe and a major threat to Britain's dominance in the world.

*The Papal States: A union of states ruled by a dynasty of popes. The current pope is a fanatic and wages a holy war against the Ottomans. The current Pope won't be happy until he has retaken Constantinople and then the entire Holy Land. In many respects the Papal States are backward - they have no overseas colonies and they lag behind in science by clinging on to dogmatic beliefs (e.g. the teachings of Copernicus are still banned). Relations with other European countries are strained especially non-catholic countries such as Britain. Even catholic countries are wary of the Papal States because large numbers of their population worship the pope as the figurehead of their religion. Spain in particular fears that they may see their country become the next state to join the Papal States. Rulers of catholic countries pay lip service to the Pope while secretly plotting to undermine his authority. The Pope however, has an excellent network of "spies" in other countries from bishops to the Pope’s own secret service.

*The Nordic Union: A loose union of Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Finland. It is a monarchy where a council of aristocrats elect a king from Norway, Sweden or Denmark. It also includes the dependent territories of Iceland, the Faeroe Islands, Greenland. Recently, King Gustaf has been attempting to move the union countries towards greater industrialisation and to solve diplomatically the disputed Finish border with Russia.

*Spain
Once the worlds only superpower Spain is now greatly diminished in strength and almost drained of money after fighting exhausting wars of attrition to hold on to her crumbling empire. Spain also bore the brunt of French aggression during the Napoleonic wars. Spain's weakened state at home has already allowed Mexico to declare independence and rebellion is imminent in many of Spain's other American colonies.

*The Inca
In this scenario the Inca Empire not only survives the depredations of European powers but also emerges as a real threat to European powers in central and South America. Aided by Spain's European enemies the Inca were able to overthrow and force out the Spanish after a lengthy guerrilla war. Although still technologically backward the Inca managed to copy the design of British muskets to produce their own rudimentary version. On home ground the Inca are a match for any European expeditionary force.

*Austro-Prussia
Prussia is "the" emerging power on the European continent after quick, decisive wars against Poland and Austria. She still lags behind Britain in the strength and size of her navy and industrial capabilities. Prussia although not the largest country is widely considered the most organised and best led.

*Britain
As in our own timeline Britain has the beginnings of a mighty overseas colonial empire and the largest and most powerful navy in the world. Currently they are the world’s superpower and plan to stay that way for a very long time.

*The USA - The US face a much more uncertain future in this scenario as they did in our own time. France having made peace in Europe has no incentive to give up her American territories and it is unlikely that a Louisiana Purchase will ever occur. A frontier occupied by the French will be much more difficult to conquer than one occupied by the Indians.

*The United Indian Territories
In this timeline the Indians are united by the great Tecumseh who has formed a “union among all the fires”. The Indians face an uphill struggle but united in their primitive strength they may just hold on to their heritage and lands.

Looks interesting, is it finished yet?

Only as far as the map, Civs and city placement - see biq on first post. I need to work out the tech and unit lines next. I'm still open to ideas from people too.

Starting date is circa 1824. As I stated, this world is subtly different from our own. Here are just a few differences as reflected by the main protagonists:
...
...*The Nordic Union: A loose union of Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Finland. It is a monarchy where a council of aristocrats elect a king from Norway, Sweden or Denmark. It also includes the dependent territories of Iceland, the Faeroe Islands, Greenland and colonies in North America (similar to british presence in Canada in our own timeline). Recently, King Ludvic has been attempting to move the union countries towards greater industrialisation and to solve diplomatically the disputed Finish border with Russia.
...
Finland would probably still be a part of Sweden.
Maybe let them retain New Sweden and the other colonies (a couple of Carribean islands and some slave trading forts (one Swedish and one Danish of each, IIRC)).
King Ludvic really needs to change his name to something more fashionable, Carl, Christian or Gustaf would do... :)

Sounds interesting.

Scenario sounds interesting but totally ridiculous historically, not because of the technology, but because of the geopolitical arrangement. It's been argued to death, but suffice it to say that the Aztecs could only have survived against the Europeans if aliens arrived with death rays to stop them. The Papal States were has-beens by the 19th century after they were invaded several times over during the French Revolutionary Wars (although this may be tempered a bit by your suggestion that Napoleon died earlier). I can't see the Vatican as having any power in an even more technified world of steampunk.

I saw a website that elaborated a plausible steampunk history. It had a detailed chronology from 1822-2000. Unfortunately, it seems to have gone down. If you can find it, I'd suggest you modify your scenario accordingly. I've yet to download it (not home now), though. Otherwise, the idea sounds interesting.

I'm glad you found my thread mrtn :)
King Ludvic came off the top of my head so thanks for the superior suggestions (I like Gustaf the best). Most (if not all) of Finland is still part of the Nordic Union but Russia still claim territory to the east and would like to have more!

I wouldn't have thought those nice Scandinavian folk (like yourself) would be dealing in the Slave Trade but perhaps I can make them nastier.

Yup, all valid points but it's not supposed to be historically plausible, it's sheer fantasy and the product of a twisted brain at that. Actually I could have gone even more ridiculous (and probably will) and you've got me thinking now.. Aztecs with Death Ray technology....

Scenario sounds interesting but totally ridiculous historically, not because of the technology, but because of the geopolitical arrangement. It's been argued to death, but suffice it to say that the Aztecs could only have survived against the Europeans if aliens arrived with death rays to stop them. The Papal States were has-beens by the 19th century after they were invaded several times over during the French Revolutionary Wars (although this may be tempered a bit by your suggestion that Napoleon died earlier). I can't see the Vatican as having any power in an even more technified world of steampunk.

I saw a website that elaborated a plausible steampunk history. It had a detailed chronology from 1822-2000. Unfortunately, it seems to have gone down. If you can find it, I'd suggest you modify your scenario accordingly. I've yet to download it (not home now), though. Otherwise, the idea sounds interesting.

I'm glad you found my thread mrtn :)
King Ludvic came off the top of my head so thanks for the superior suggestions (I like Gustaf the best). Most (if not all) of Finland is still part of the Nordic Union but Russia still claim territory to the east and would like to have more!

I wouldn't have thought those nice Scandinavian folk (like yourself) would be dealing in the Slave Trade but perhaps I can make them nastier.
Oh, we quit selling slaves when they got out of fashion. :mischief: The numbers were much smaller than what other, bigger countries sold, though.
Those last (worthless) colonies were lost in the Napoleonic times, so it's not so strange thinking they'd been retained (that's the word, right?).

I'm also looking forward to the Aztec with Death Rays Mod. :lol:

Those last (worthless) colonies were lost in the Napoleonic times, so it's not so strange thinking they'd been retained (that's the word, right?).

Retained is right (your English is better than mine anyways :)). If you could furnish me with the names and locations of those colonies you could save me from having to look it up :)



I'm also looking forward to the Aztec with Death Rays Mod. :lol:

One of these days! Not this scenario tho'. I want to keep folks like Nanocyborgasm on side as I did think he raised some valid points and it's nothing personal if I go ahead an ignore them but I'm treading a fine line between the plausible and the ridiculous.. (I'll stop rambling now and just get on with making a scenario that's fun to play).

Retained is right (your English is better than mine anyways :)). If you could furnish me with the names and locations of those colonies you could save me from having to look it up :)
....
Better I'm busy than you, eh?
New Sweden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Sweden) was later renamed Delaware.
You can also check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possessions_of_Sweden
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_colonization_of_the_Americas

You should probably check out this site -- http://www.zeitcom.com/majgen/60lshp.html

Here's a pic:

If this lives up to its potential, it would be without question the coolest and most fun mod out there...

You should probably check out this site -- http://www.zeitcom.com/majgen/60lshp.html

Here's a pic:
Sweet I feel a unit request coming on. I definitely need some of those for this scenario. I had in mind Aaglo's Empire Steam Tank but these look more appropriate for the age of steam.

I will also request a Steam Powered "Mecha" with gatling guns attached to its arms.

That's the aim but I'll need help from playtesters, unit creators, ideas people etc.

If this lives up to its potential, it would be without question the coolest and most fun mod out there...

KingArthur,

I find your ideas extremely intriguing. I'll be around to playtest when the time comes.

I for one also like the sounds of this. My Advanced airship and steam powered airship are available, and would fit well with this type of scenario. I'm also planning to do some more FF type airships in the near future. I'd also like to know if you'd be willing to incorporate designs and Ideas from Miyazaki's Tenku no Shiro Rapyuta (Laputa, the Castle in the Sky), since I have a book of the artwork and designs used (theres several dozen airship designs, not to mention the armored tank-trains and other cool stuff).

@Hikaro Takayama
I agree. I've seen your airships and they definitely must be in. It's a great film and I'd love to see units like armoured tank trains. I think I'll avoid floating castles tho' but the rest of that world was beautifully imagined.
@HooDoo
thanks. I'll post updates when appropriate.

[QUOTE=KingArthur]@Hikaro Takayama
I agree. I've seen your airships and they definitely must be in. It's a great film and I'd love to see units like armoured tank trains. I think I'll avoid floating castles tho' but the rest of that world was beautifully imagined.
[QUOTE]

Good, expect to see Dora's pirate airship on the list, once I start back up with unit making at the end of the month.

Cool. That's the one with the bay where those one manned pilot fighters pop out of. Can't wait.

[QUOTE=KingArthur]@Hikaro Takayama
Good, expect to see Dora's pirate airship on the list, once I start back up with unit making at the end of the month.

Here is a file showing how I've worked out the unit lines. It also shows the units I've already got.

Another link :) --

http://www.rudi-geudens.be/

EDIT: Look under "Armies & Enemies of Afriboria" / "Vehicles"

-Oz

If you want a scenario filled with Airships, Analytical Engines (that's mechanical computers ala' Charles Babbage), Steam Tanks, Ironclads and other wonders, all set on an epic World Map in a alternate timeline subtly different from our own then this is the thread for you. I've started it and here's a biq to prove it!

Sounds like we've got the same vision. I'm looking for such units for an Atlantis Rising mod I'm working on. Like you, I've already exhausted the steam tank, steam tiger, airship, DaVinci Tank, and nautilus units (special thanks to Hikaro Takayama for some of these... perhaps with much flattery he'll be compelled to make more). :worship:

Some of the Dwarf units are also useful (particularly the ones without dwarves in them).

Anyway, I'm in the process of collecting unit images from the good folks at the Research Q&A. Perhaps we could package the request to the unitmakers together.

Another nice link Ozy. Cheers

Sounds like we've got the same vision. I'm looking for such units for an Atlantis Rising mod I'm working on.

Do you have a link yet?

Like you, I've already exhausted the steam tank, steam tiger, airship, DaVinci Tank, and nautilus units (special thanks to Hikaro Takayama for some of these... perhaps with much flattery he'll be compelled to make more). :worship:

Let's hope so. He has already said he will be making another airship which we can look forward to.

Some of the Dwarf units are also useful (particularly the ones without dwarves in them).

I like aaglo's gyrocopter and Steam Tank and hopefully he will make some more steam vehicles.

Anyway, I'm in the process of collecting unit images from the good folks at the Research Q&A. Perhaps we could package the request to the unitmakers together.
Good idea. I have already made a request on the main forum tho'. I think we will get further if there's more than one voice asking for the same thing. Did you have a particular unit in mind?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Victorian_Future_Tech1.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Victorian_Future_Tech2.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Victorian_Future_Tech3.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Victorian_Future_Tech4.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Victorian_Future_Tech5.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Victorian_Future_Tech6.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Victorian_Future_Tech7.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Victorian_Future_Tech8.JPG

These are the steam tanks and other items I hunted down for pedrov - I think the tanks are really cool. I also hope these are of some use to you as well.

Good idea. I have already made a request on the main forum tho'. I think we will get further if there's more than one voice asking for the same thing. Did you have a particular unit in mind?

I'm moving a little slower than you are. Right now my Atlantis mod is in its infancy. It will probably be some time before I'd release something to the forum. When I do, it will most likely be the files to add an Atlantis Civ and an expanded tech tree to incorporate the units. I tend to modify the rules heavily when I play so I'm not sure there will be a warm reception for a full mod of mine... I just can't stand Battleships getting sunk by Galleys :mad: .

I'd like to give the research Q&A forum (including myself) some more time to get a good selection of pics and units together. Because many of these units are so cool and original, my idea was to post a designer's challenge. That is, instead of "please make unit Z," I'd rather say "Please make the coolest units possible with the following rule: The more unnecessarily complicated the better... and here are some ideas/inspirations (pictures) to get you going." I'd rather have some unique units that are challenging to designers than simple rehashes, though at this stage, I'd settle for just about anything.

Any thoughts or suggestions on a strategy? Is this at odds with what you're shooting for?

Well, once I return to unit making at the beginning of next month, I'll be making the Hilde Garde III, and the "Land Ship" concept has got my interest piqued (especially since I was reading some Trigun with their sand steamers), and I'll probably do somthing along those lines after that. I've also been browsing through my Tenku no Shiro Rapyuta concept art book....

Looks like I've managed to make somewhat of a name for myself when it comes to unusual/hypothetical unit lines.... :mischief:

Darn, I was hoping to get to the Hilde Garde III, oh well.

In good sport I'll give you this awesome Hilde Garde III pic I found somewhere. You might have it already, but just in case you don't and anyways other artists could benifit from it.

By the way, good idea and I hope my second unit in my production line (after Corvette) The Titanic should make a good contribution to this "Steam Frenzy".

PS: Hilde Garde is the front-most airship.

@ Hikaro Takayama: Shall we entertain you with our collected image bank once completed :love: ? I'm not sure how much of my commentary you've read on this, but, for my part, I'm really interested in creative, highly-mechanistic designs. Nothing dark, just good-old-fashioned steam and iron and gears and walkers and treads and belching flames and...

We've been having some discussion on this over at the research Q&A as well, beginning with my question at post #80, then, so far, #81 - #86, & #89.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=104547

Obviously you know where the steam-punk thread is.

Darn, I was hoping to get to the Hilde Garde III, oh well.


You misunderstood me. I said that once I return to unit making, I'll do the Hilde Garde III first THEN I'd do the militarized land steamer (the design that I have in my head is a cross between the Sand Steamer from Trigun, the Land Iron Clad that you've posted, and the Train tank from Laputa, Castle in the Sky (Tenku no Shiro, Rapyuta) ). BTW, thanks for the Hilde Garde III pic, I was wondering where I could get a decent screenshot. Looks like I might be able to do the whole thing in Bryce (probably will give it some kind of cannon attack).

Pedrov, I'll take a look once I get around to actually making the units.

Sounds like a great idea could be called "Pedrov's Fiendish Engineering Challenge". I hope a few unit makers make an attempt. Anything mechanical with steam really is what I'd be looking for, the more bizarre the better to.

I'd rather have some unique units that are challenging to designers than simple rehashes, though at this stage, I'd settle for just about anything.

Any thoughts or suggestions on a strategy? Is this at odds with what you're shooting for?

Excellent news Hikaro. Any chance you can post some pics to drool over. Sand Steamers sound intriguing :)

Well, once I return to unit making at the beginning of next month, I'll be making the Hilde Garde III, and the "Land Ship" concept has got my interest piqued (especially since I was reading some Trigun with their sand steamers), and I'll probably do somthing along those lines after that. I've also been browsing through my Tenku no Shiro Rapyuta concept art book....

Looks like I've managed to make somewhat of a name for myself when it comes to unusual/hypothetical unit lines.... :mischief:

thanks mistfit hopefully these will inspire some unit creators
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Victorian_Future_Tech1.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Victorian_Future_Tech2.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Victorian_Future_Tech3.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Victorian_Future_Tech4.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Victorian_Future_Tech5.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Victorian_Future_Tech6.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Victorian_Future_Tech7.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Victorian_Future_Tech8.JPG

These are the steam tanks and other items I hunted down for pedrov - I think the tanks are really cool. I also hope these are of some use to you as well.

I was wondering where I could get a decent screenshot
What is it that you are looking for a screen shot of?

I think he meant the pic of the Hilde Garde III which he was thanking Orthanc for posting already.

What is it that you are looking for a screen shot of?

Sounds like a great idea could be called "Pedrov's Fiendish Engineering Challenge". I hope a few unit makers make an attempt. Anything mechanical with steam really is what I'd be looking for, the more bizarre the better to.

Or maybe:
"Pedrov's Fiendish Engineering Challenge for Spurious Victorian Units"

Perhaps its still too early for me today. :coffee:

I'm concerned for Mistfit. Anyone that gets up at 6:30 in their own time zone has got to have a job or something.

That's better :)
I'm up at 6:45 but never log on to a computer until 9:00. Coffee does help.

Or maybe:
"Pedrov's Fiendish Engineering Challenge for Spurious Victorian Units"

Perhaps its still too early for me today. :coffee:

I'm concerned for Mistfit. Anyone that gets up at 6:30 in their own time zone has got to have a job or something.

Anyone that gets up at 6:30 in their own time zone has got to have a job or something.
You are making the presumption that I went to sleep :D

and actually it was 7:33AM my time.

You are making the presumption that I went to sleep :D

and actually it was 7:33AM my time.

I thought Michigan was CST (per your N.Michigan Location). Or perhaps the postings aren't in the user's time zones. nope, they are... just checked... maybe the pennisula... ah... 7:30 is quite reasonable... anything with a 6 in front of it is another story entirely though.

Uh, I haven't been able to Google up any screenshots of the sand steamer, yet, so I'll just post a short description:

The sand Steamers in Trigun are about the size of a late-victorian era Cruise ship, and look basically like a cross between said ship and a steam locomotive, with several heavy duty steam plants driving 6 sets of approx 8 wheels each. The sand steamers are the safest way to cross the vast wastelands of the desert planet that the human colonists in Trigun have been stranded on.

Trigun could be considered steampunk, in the loosest sense of the term... A good portion of their day-day tech is steam based, and late-19th century, but there's also lost technology from the colony ships that crashed 150 years ago that pops up from time to time, not to mention a number of hi-tech stuff that's been preserved, such as sattlite radio and TV. IMO, the tagline for the original Japanese title of the series best sums the "genre" up: Trigun Maximum: Deep Space Planet Future Gun Action (yes, the original Japanese version has an English title, Yasuhiro Naito, the author, has been to the US several times and has done his "Wild West" research fairly well).

Oh if you're willing to include something like the volucite/hikouseki from Tenku no Shiro Rapyuta, then the YAT-97 Artillery bot could also fit in fairly well. As a matter of fact, in a 1916 or 1917 issue of Popular Mechanics, there was an actual design for completely mechanical machinegun shooting automaton that was proposed for use in the trenches. It looked kind of like an oversized, mean version of R2-D2. :lol:

Oh if you're willing to include something like the volucite/hikouseki from Tenku no Shiro Rapyuta, then the YAT-97 Artillery bot could also fit in fairly well. As a matter of fact, in a 1916 or 1917 issue of Popular Mechanics, there was an actual design for completely mechanical machinegun shooting automaton that was proposed for use in the trenches. It looked kind of like an oversized, mean version of R2-D2. :lol:

Definitely, it could be the end of my defensive "foot" unit line or an alternative artillery unit. A mean R2-D2 just has me laughing even thinking about it but would definitely have a place in my mod.

@KingArthur: What other units do you have outside of...

Steam Tiger
Steam Tank
Airship
Nautilus
DaVinci Tank
Auto Gyro
...and of course, the many futuristic units (and I do have the YAT-97).

I haven't game tested any of mine yet since downloading. Any problems?

I have 2 of aaglo's ships: the paddle wheel steamers. Also a bunch of Wyrmshadow's ships: he made a thing called the Turtle which is a primitive sphere shaped sub. If you have Excel you can see all the units I've used with hyperlinks to their locations in post #21. If not I can post it as an htm file. I have a whole heap of unique rifle line units for each units including "native" rifle units that can be built by the colonial powers once they control the resource to build them that is.

I have had no problems with any of the units so far except some lack sounds.

What's the auto-gyro? I don't have that unless you mean the dwarf gyrocopter.

@KingArthur: What other units do you have outside of...

Steam Tiger
Steam Tank
Airship
Nautilus
DaVinci Tank
Auto Gyro
...and of course, the many futuristic units (and I do have the YAT-97).

I haven't game tested any of mine yet since downloading. Any problems?

@KingArthur. Yeah, I have all of the units you listed as well, I have a bunch. A lack of sounds is no problem (I'm used to that from downloading Wyrmshadow's units). In fact, the avro autogyro is by Wyrmshadow.

The auto gyro is here (need to be a member):
http://cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/civ3/viewtopic.php?t=5350

@KingArthur: May not work for you, or you may already have them, but I'll also be using some of The Great Apple's units, particularly the Kanz, Dreadnaught, and Mega Armor.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2068615&postcount=11

I'd be surprised if this wasn't already posted on this site, but lots of regular and experimental tanks posted by country... some really cool ones I've never seen before, and many have photos. Many have a nice ww1/industrial flavor, even a few steam-driven units.

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/

I especially like this one for the italians:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/Italy/Ita-pavesi6-ionfonosch.jpg

And, the american 3-wheeled steam tank:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/UnitedStates/heavytanks/usht-150tonFieldMonitor.jpg

Did you happen to notice the Danish armored Harley Davidson?

Did you happen to notice the Danish armored Harley Davidson?

Just looked at it now. It looks like a Tron motorcycle! That's fabulous. What I've been looking at today are things like these:

Some amusing models here:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~beattie/steam.html

-Oz

Some amusing models here:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~beattie/steam.html

-Oz

Great units Oz! You keep finding the awesome sites :yeah: .

The research Q&A's been slow a few days... perhaps the readers are still digesting the enormous amounts of info located therein :mischief: .

The research Q&A's been slow a few days... perhaps the readers are still digesting the enormous amounts of info located therein :mischief: .

:lol: Or we're all busy researching Steampunk :D

thanks for the pics and links guys.

Hey guys, I just thought of something: The Shinra GrossPanzer that I made could also probably work pretty well for this mod.

I also like some of the pics I've seen and have a few ideas percolating right now. Especially that one pic of the armor-plated Oilpull steam tractor :lol: I've seen steam tractors like that at the annual Cumberland Valley Antique Engine and Tractor show, but not with the plating...

Too right it could. Don't know how I missed that one, thanks.
Hey guys, I just thought of something: The Shinra GrossPanzer that I made could also probably work pretty well for this mod.

I also like some of the pics I've seen and have a few ideas percolating right now. Especially that one pic of the armor-plated Oilpull steam tractor :lol: I've seen steam tractors like that at the annual Cumberland Valley Antique Engine and Tractor show, but not with the plating...

Yeah, the ones shipped to South Africa had their plates almost immediately removed to armor trains.

-Oz

Yeah, the ones shipped to South Africa had their plates almost immediately removed to armor trains.

-Oz

Yeah, my great grandfather, when he was still alive, told me about how they used those tractors (which in their normal form look kind of like a steam locomotive) for plowing the fields and running threshing machines and such. He said that they were too bulky and heavy for cultivating or havesting, so they still did that either with horses or by hand. My great grandfather was born in 1907, and died at the ripe ol' age of 89 in 1996, during my senior year of High School. I was very thankful that I got to know my great grandfather, and he actually admitted that he was glad that my brother and I liked listening to his "boring old man's tales." I learned a lot more about the Great Depression and other early 20th Century history from him, and my other great grandparent than I ever learned in school (the other great-grandfather who was alive until my second year of college told me about what it was like for him to see his first motor car). I can only hope to pass on that kind of legacy to my own great-grandkids (providing I can find a girlfriend first).

Hey, now there's an Idea: I could create an Oilpull steam tractor for use as a worker unit, how's that sound?

Edit: Here's some pics of steam tractors I found. The top one is an Oil Pull, and the bottom is an old Sawyer-Fergussen. If no one else does them, I'll see about working it into my unit schedule.

Are you from Chambersburg, PA?
Those would be cool worker units!

Are you from Chambersburg, PA?
Those would be cool worker units!

Well, where I'm from originally is actually closer to Mercersburg, but...... Hey! How the heck do you even know Chambersburg exists, let alone that it hosts one kick-butt antique engine and tractor show twice a year? You wouldn't be from that area as well, would you?

Google is an amazing tool :D We have the Buckley Old engine show here the 3rd Weekend in August. It brings in about 100,000 people to a town with a population of 550 (in the 2000 census anyway) So Chambersburg at with a population of 17862 is a Megalopolis in comparison.

Found another one :D

http://historicalhobbies.com/DOGS/main/Gaslight/Gaslight.htm

-Oz

EDIT: and this puppy: http://www.gisby.org/1889pic.htm

-O.

oooh the Prussian Landmark IV is fabu!

Oh my, I seem to be on a roll :D

http://www.apptechnc.net/~techromancer/photos/steam6.jpg

also /.../.../.../steam2 ,4, 7 & 8

-Oz

EDIT: Found the main page for the pix: http://www.apptechnc.net/~techromancer/gator.htm

-O.

Also: http://www.tin-soldier.com/colonial.htm

-Oz

And -- http://www.jeffvalentstudios.com/deadlandsgrw.htm ; some amusing photos near the bottom of the page.

Great digging Ozy. My fave is the HMLS Thunder and the black Gator is a close second.

Great digging Ozy. My fave is the HMLS Thunder and the black Gator is a close second.

Thanks! -- Maybe it's time for SOMEONE to start requesting some units :mischief: ;) ...

I know. I opened a request thread but the only attraction it got was from you guys :)

At least Hikaro Takayama has said he will make some units and I'm prepared to just wait and let him do what he wants. However, I think I will make a specific appeal for certain units now that I have all these lovely pics to choose from. :goodjob:

Thanks! -- Maybe it's time for SOMEONE to start requesting some units :mischief: ;) ...

Well, I'm starting to gear up for my return to unit production (I've already got one unit base model done) and will be posting previews of the next several units I'm making. The Steampunk units will figure in, since I happen to be interested in this kind of retro sci-fi stuff. I've been into this kind of thing ever since I first saw the Wild Wild West TV show back when I was in elementary school (this is the same TV series that Will Smith based his movie off of). I'll be doing some more models and stuff tonight, after I'm done making the hair for Civ Army's Dubya LH and I've finished with my Sybil LH (I've found the perfect BG image, now all I need to do is implement it). I will be contacting the guy who made the Gator model to request his permission before starting on that one. I'll also have to get in touch with Muffins, since the best route would be to go the that guy did and build the 3d model off of Muffins' Basilisk model.

Just a few more disorganized links to throw in.

EDIT: The best stuff is at the bottom (especially the last two links).

http://www.thelondonwarroom.com/Update%20Notes.%20htm.htm
http://www.voidgamers.com/channel/b.320.r.305.html
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/ironmammoth/scheltrum/
http://www.wayneolivant.karoo.net/vsf_Empire.htm

how about the electric man settler?...
http://www.bigredhair.com/robots/

and some pretty cool airships...
http://home.att.net/~dannysoar2/HarryGrantDart.htm

less relevant, but an older looking landship concept... for short, bearded people!...
http://www.ifelix.co.uk/art4.html

some of the airships are interesting...
http://www.visualparadox.com/scifi.htm

masked minions...
http://www.parroomstation.net/PSO_VSF.html

okay, probably extreme (definitely extreme), but perhaps an inspiration for land-based aircraft carriers...
http://www.dp9.com/Support/landship.htm

definitely worth navigating for whatever interest, the war stuff is pretty nice (like what appears to be a ferris-wheel style war machine... links at the bottom of the main page (e.g., Future War, ...
http://www.davidszondy.com/future/futurepast.htm

love this one. cool artillery & naval/submarine...
http://www.freewebs.com/asharwood3/vsf.htm

@ aaglo: any interest in suspending one of your nice ships from a baloon?

I'm thinking of these as predecessors to later steam-powered airships to get through the earliest ages in an epic game with a steam-based civ.

Some textures for steam-punk units (and maybe Hikaro's land ship)?

Hmmm.. Very odd :)

For the Warhammer 40,000 mod I need to make some "primative" units to represent the techno barbarian aspect of the warhammer 40K universe; I.E, that the humans of 40,000AD have hugely advanced weapons and equipment, but the bulk of thier citizens are illiterate and have no understanding of how thier technology works.

For new settlers on a distant planet steam power would be a usefull option, especial if the planet doesn't have any oil or natural gas reserves (though in that case they wouldn't have any coal).
One of the thigs I've always wanted to make since I used to read Micheal Moorcock and his hawkmoon books, is a Ornithopter. This would make an ideal low tech air unit (which would be totaly outclassed by imperial thunderhawks and the like). Also I'd like to make a primative steam tank.

So, Keep your eyes open, ornithopter and steam tank in the near future... :mischief:

@ smoking mirror: It will be like a b-day and x-mas rolled into one!
:bday: :xmas:

OK, I'm working on loads of other stuff at the moment, and just found out I'm going to lose my job after Xmas, but had time this afternoon to have a quick go at the ornithopter....

Some suggestions? I'm thinking either wings need to be more solid, or much less so, have to make a chioce on that one. For overall style and textures I'm going to go for a somewhat baroque style...

I'm thinking either wings need to be more solid, or much less so, have to make a chioce on that one. For overall style and textures I'm going to go for a somewhat baroque style...

Go for Baroque :D (sorry, couldn't resist) -- I would actually say make the wings larger, more like the proportions below.

-Oz

The Complex Version:

Or the simple version... just some more inspirations:

And a few more textures:

...One of the thigs I've always wanted to make since I used to read Micheal Moorcock and his hawkmoon books, is a Ornithopter. ...
Just started to re-read his Oswald Bastable stories (collected in "The Nomad of the Time Streams"), as I understand it they're some of the first steampunk stories (if you don't count Jules Verne and his lot as steampunk, but as more straight-forward SF). :)

This scenario seems like great fun! :) I'm looking forward to playing it when it's finished...

The Complex Version:

This one I like the most. :)

I've got a good idea of what I want for the steam tank, Its going to be like the firt carriage of an armoured train, byt with Isembard kingdom brunel's "wide guage wheels", that is wheels that are taller than the train itself and allow passage over rough terrain with even primative spring type suspension. The wheels will be large cast iron, spoked affairs, with the type of makeshift treads (wooden boards fixed to the rim of the wheel overlapping) that were used in WWI and before for moving heavy guns over broken or muddy ground.

@Smoking mirror: wheel types buried within an earlier post on this thread...

Going to finish this one now that my zombie scenario is dead. Even if no one is going to play I want to do it for myself. There's a new biq and revised storyline on the first page. And also a screenshot of the techs for the Industrial Era.

Sounds excellent to me! -- Don't forget to see if anyone will make units from the "concept art" earlier in the thread (he added, greedily ;) ).

Best,

Oz

Hey KA, I made a Land Ship for Zulu a while back that should fit for your standard steam-tank type unit. I've also made a few other units that should work for the scenario since the last activity on this thread, and will be making a new steam airship (Hilda Garde 3) in the near future. I could also dig up the incomplete steam tractor worker project I started a long time ago (I still got the file).

Could you use this thing?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=3158367&postcount=28

how about this?

@Ozy - I will try.
@Hikaro - already picked that one up, thanks. Anymore in the pipeline? - see Ozy's post ;)
@muffins - I could fit it in somewhere as it's quite quirky. It's not exactly what I had in mind since I expect airships to dominate this world but I could put it into the modern era, where I was going to place gyrocopters.
@Wyrmshadow - Drool!!! That's exactly the sort of thing I'm after. Has it been made or is it made already (hoping). I have a lot of your units already earmarked for this mod.

I've enjoyed playing your other scenarios KA. In fact I think "Going viking" was the first scenario/mod I ever played. Naturally I wish you well with this great new project! :goodjob:

I've enjoyed playing your other scenarios KA. In fact I think "Going viking" was the first scenario/mod I ever played. Naturally I wish you well with this great new project! :goodjob:
thanks. In fact I have a new version of Going Viking ready. I can't release it however, until Anno Domini is made public because I use some artwork from that mod.

I could also dig up the incomplete steam tractor worker project I started a long time ago (I still got the file).
Please do.

Excellent to see that this is going to get finished.

This one certainly deserves to be completed. :)

Unless you happen to need some unusual resource gfx, I probably can't help much, but I'll do what I can. :)

Very glad to see this one is still on its way. And good news about Going Viking too, another great scenario - I'll be watching out for the revised version!

That is a paper model I found online of a land ironclad from a story by HG Wells where he talks about the future of warfare... and it sounded just like WW1 trench warfare.

or a Tsar Tank is about as wacky steampunk as I ever saw
http://www.missing-lynx.com/gallery/other/tsar_szaloga2.jpg

Excellent to see that this is going to get finished.I couldn't agree more! :)

I don't mean to bump a dead thread, but what's a steampunk? :D

I don't mean to bump a dead thread, but what's a steampunk? :D

Was that a serious question or are you bumping for the hell of it?

I don't mean to bump a dead thread, but what's a steampunk? :D

Google it

Here I did it for you :p
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steampunk

this thread may have been dead but I'm still working on this scenario on and off.

Ask people in Indonesia the difference between a dormant volcano and an extinct one.

@KingArthur:

If you need any playtesters/cowriters for this one I'd like to help. I've got some of the GURPS (Steve Jackson Games) steampunk roleplaying game materials and would like to help out.

I'm no artist though.

Google it

Here I did it for you :p
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steampunk

this thread may have been dead but I'm still working on this scenario on and off.

That's my trouble - I'm no artist either.

I will need your sort of help of course but first I'll need to update you with all the changes I've made that are not on the first post.

Start date is circa 1810 just after the Napoleonic Wars and the reshaping of Europe. Of course, the timeline is in an alternate universe so don't expect much congruence with our own history.

For example, China is a major power and have curbed much of the European expansion that happened in our own timeline. Consequently, Europe is a bit more backward than they were in our 1810 - imagine a Europe frozen out of the Spice Trade or without access to the silver mines of the Incas. Many European nations rely on fleets of Privateers prowling the Indian Ocean hoping to catch a Srivijayan or Indian transport without a Chinese escort.

I'm still toying with the idea of making Great Britain a Cromwellian type republic ruled by a Lord Protector.

Europe still managed to colonise most of the Americas however and Africa is still ripe for colonialism and adventure, but there are native powers to contend with.

So there's a lot for your creative brain to work on including techs, units and what-not. In fact here's the biq for you to have a look at - and that includes anyone else who may be interested.

@KingArthur:

If you need any playtesters/cowriters for this one I'd like to help. I've got some of the GURPS (Steve Jackson Games) steampunk roleplaying game materials and would like to help out.

I'm no artist though.

Apparently I posted quite a few times in this thread. I wonder what it's about.
;)

Edit: crosspost with KA, who apparently forgot to attach the biq.

should be there now mrtn. You were very helpful to me if I remember correctly :)

I got a typical pedialicons text error when I loaded it---I think for Education. I'll try to figure it out later. Just from the .biq it seem a little in the raw, so I'll make some wild suggestions and see what you think.


<EDIT: Sorry I should have read post 2 in the thread>
On the world campaign background, I have these questions:

Is there a USA, and is it free of England/France/Spain/Netherlands in this Alt-history?

& why exactly is China dominant? Just because the Europeans beat themselves up too much, or did the Chinese develop steampunk tech with the most vigor?

Are the Indians free by self-development, Chinese Clients, or did they get some steampunk stimulation from Europe?

Are the 'new world' natives mostly free and rather powerful (to at least 16th C. Europe technology) with European colonies interspaced?



Start date is circa 1810 just after the Napoleonic Wars and the reshaping of Europe. Of course, the timeline is in an alternate universe so don't expect much congruence with our own history.

For example, China is a major power and have curbed much of the European expansion that happened in our own timeline. Consequently, Europe is a bit more backward than they were in our 1810 - imagine a Europe frozen out of the Spice Trade or without access to the silver mines of the Incas. Many European nations rely on fleets of Privateers prowling the Indian Ocean hoping to catch a Srivijayan or Indian transport without a Chinese escort.

On victory conditions for this scenario----I imagine a wonder race, domination, or a wild-shot diplomacy race would be reasonable. Given this a world spanning with probably lots of units, turn lag will probably become an issue.

Some ideas----create unique resources only available at unique spots on the earth. A combination of those allows building of a geopolitical wonder. Alternatively, allow more than one of those resources at the one spot---making them tradeable, so that acquiring them might not just represent domination, but also strong trade bonds.

Probably a NAFTA (american indians, USA, Mexico, and Incans), and a Papal States conquer the Holy Land as one each.
Ottomans rule the Mediterranean as another. And a Super-Asian prosperity sphere---not only the Pacific, but also the Silk road. These wonders would figure into a wonder race victory.

The diplomatic victory one would represent touching the corners of the earth. That is, the wonder enabling diplomatic victory requires unique resources that span the whole globe But since your world is so polarized into several different spheres, I'd only see it coming together after a bloody global war, so have acquiring the resources cross many locked alliances or otherwise non-friendly civs and barbarians.


Steampunknological wonders would represent superior steampunk advances and implementations, and would figure into the wonder victory race as well as giving nifty side benefits. Cap a bunch of these with perhaps a final wonder---A World Expo?

At the least, a mega-Analytical Machine that is the basis for a Socialist society (and a nifty government type).

A colonization of Venus (through aethercraft) as wonder, but not as the space race victory type. No need to actually build the spaceship.

Another wonder that is a Duex Ex harvester to increase production---puts a superfactory in every city.



And on the optional tech side:
Probably some grimmer Victorian stuff too, such as Re-animators (zombies and Frankensteins) and Organ trade (unhappiness producing and commerce generating) and other bizarre experimentation (personality transplants, two-headed people, giant ants and giant squids). Also Invisibility and Madness-inducing chemicals and potions (making zombies, serial killers, plagues/pollution)

Semi-fantasy stuff---such as Rift gates allowing metahumans from other dimensions (elves, dwarves, orcs).
Of course leading to Flintlocke armed fantasy units.

A combined Air-Sea-Aethervehicle race to make the wackiest improbably effective vehicles. Defintely steam-powered man-suits with very nasty defensive bombardment if not particularly good mobility. And possibly a steam powered Mecha-Colossus wonder----generating huge defense for the city, and commerce in every square? And the analytical machine driven naval guns (great bombardment through accuracy) and Tesla-force driven sensors (improved detection range).

River-powered Hydromills fueling electrochemical batteries, a very advanced alternative to coal-power (if you find yourself without coal)? Without either, no factories/mass production. And completely necessary for new line of steam powered Workmobiles (the best Worker replacement with 500% more land efficiency)

I notice that Wikipedia claims that Titus Alone is the first steampunk novel - now that's peculiar!

Makes me wonder if a Gormenghast mod could be done. Probably not.

I got a typical pedialicons text error when I loaded it---I think for Education. I'll try to figure it out later. Just from the .biq it seem a little in the raw, so I'll make some wild suggestions and see what you think.

It's not playable yet. Sheesh! I only uploaded it so you could look at the map and civs through the Editor :)


On the world campaign background, I have these questions:
Is there a USA, and is it free of England/France/Spain/Netherlands in this Alt-history?

Yes there is a USA but it's a long, long way a way from its "manifest destiny".
Spain still has Floridas and Mexico can take a bit more territory, France still holds Louisiana

& why exactly is China dominant? Just because the Europeans beat themselves up too much, or did the Chinese develop steampunk tech with the most vigor?

I got the idea after reading 1421 The Year China Discovered The World.


Are the Indians free by self-development, Chinese Clients, or did they get some steampunk stimulation from Europe?

That I have not decided yet they would have met China before the Europeans however and there is the possiblility that they may be a client (tributary) state of the Chinese like Srivijaya, Korea and the Phillipines.


Are the 'new world' natives mostly free and rather powerful (to at least 16th C. Europe technology) with European colonies interspaced?
They are free but at roughly the same technological level they were in our own time. Their one advantage is that they are united under the Great Tecumseh.

That's some good ideas and I'll answer them when I get some spare time (which may not be until Sunday).

On victory conditions for this scenario----I imagine a wonder race, domination, or a wild-shot diplomacy race would be reasonable. Given this a world spanning with probably lots of units, turn lag will probably become an issue.

Some ideas----create unique resources only available at unique spots on the earth. A combination of those allows building of a geopolitical wonder. Alternatively, allow more than one of those resources at the one spot---making them tradeable, so that acquiring them might not just represent domination, but also strong trade bonds.

Probably a NAFTA (american indians, USA, Mexico, and Incans), and a Papal States conquer the Holy Land as one each.
Ottomans rule the Mediterranean as another. And a Super-Asian prosperity sphere---not only the Pacific, but also the Silk road. These wonders would figure into a wonder race victory.

The diplomatic victory one would represent touching the corners of the earth. That is, the wonder enabling diplomatic victory requires unique resources that span the whole globe But since your world is so polarized into several different spheres, I'd only see it coming together after a bloody global war, so have acquiring the resources cross many locked alliances or otherwise non-friendly civs and barbarians.


Steampunknological wonders would represent superior steampunk advances and implementations, and would figure into the wonder victory race as well as giving nifty side benefits. Cap a bunch of these with perhaps a final wonder---A World Expo?

At the least, a mega-Analytical Machine that is the basis for a Socialist society (and a nifty government type).

A colonization of Venus (through aethercraft) as wonder, but not as the space race victory type. No need to actually build the spaceship.

Another wonder that is a Duex Ex harvester to increase production---puts a superfactory in every city.



And on the optional tech side:
Probably some grimmer Victorian stuff too, such as Re-animators (zombies and Frankensteins) and Organ trade (unhappiness producing and commerce generating) and other bizarre experimentation (personality transplants, two-headed people, giant ants and giant squids). Also Invisibility and Madness-inducing chemicals and potions (making zombies, serial killers, plagues/pollution)

Semi-fantasy stuff---such as Rift gates allowing metahumans from other dimensions (elves, dwarves, orcs).
Of course leading to Flintlocke armed fantasy units.

A combined Air-Sea-Aethervehicle race to make the wackiest improbably effective vehicles. Defintely steam-powered man-suits with very nasty defensive bombardment if not particularly good mobility. And possibly a steam powered Mecha-Colossus wonder----generating huge defense for the city, and commerce in every square? And the analytical machine driven naval guns (great bombardment through accuracy) and Tesla-force driven sensors (improved detection range).

River-powered Hydromills fueling electrochemical batteries, a very advanced alternative to coal-power (if you find yourself without coal)? Without either, no factories/mass production. And completely necessary for new line of steam powered Workmobiles (the best Worker replacement with 500% more land efficiency)

Yes it's very peculiar LOL. A Gormenghast mod is not on my list.
I notice that Wikipedia claims that Titus Alone is the first steampunk novel - now that's peculiar!

Makes me wonder if a Gormenghast mod could be done. Probably not.

KingArthur, this sounds really cool. If you need any help just ask me. :)

I`ll try to follow this thread, just have to get back in my reading routine :)

More ranting continued (til I sketch out your biq King Arthur or stub a playing version---I like to do the playing hands on thing to get an idea of the scenario):

Having read the wiki, I see my idea of Steampunk is a bit off, as I tend to equate it with anything up to WW1, but it's actually considered pre-electricity. Maybe your scenario can bend the rules and run up to WW1 / Versailles?

Tech tree: To keep with the idea of eccentricity and genius, the best paths through the tree will be the most ellipitical, but expensive, straight, optional ones should also be available. So a warmongering straight unit upgrade should be possible in infantry, naval, cavalry, artillery, and of course steam locomotion/vehicles, but it should be the least productive; So first instance, each line might be 5-10 techs (all optional), with each tech being a unit upgrade of dubious improvement (e.g. 15% production cost, or only +1 in defense, or only +1 in attack, and costing a high GP to upgrade). So none of the a-Steampunk units will be cheap or swiftly upgradeable.
A better workaround will be to say go Analytical machines, then Steampowered CAD, and Robo-steamfactory to design WW1 equivalent rifles/personal gatling guns.
The similar should be true for the city improvements. Banks/banking might actually improve mundanely but inefficiently, but a more creative solution might be buried after some Analytical machine-based sociology (perhaps steam-powered retinal scanners to make the first ATM system).

Wonders: I like a Wonder Victory to make a game relatively short and meaningful, so the Great Wonders should be fewer, and designed to capstone a series of small wonders that represent progress to the great wonder, and give tangible benefits.

E.g. Great Wonder: Conquer the Aetherverse
Small wonders: Aether Merchant Fleet
Aether Royal Marines
Aether Cruiser Fleet
Aether Lagrange Colony
Aether Martian Colony
Aether Venusian Colony
effects: some produce units others
commerce, production, free techs,
etc..

And also have Geopolitical wonders since a bit of
the
"Great Game" and a Mutual Pact "War to End all
Wars" should be present. And also a bid for
"Manifest Destiny" and altered "Monroe Doctrine"
as well as an alternative of "Pan-Amerigoism"
(Pan-American), and the alternative of a
TransSiberian Alliance of natives.
Many possibilities of these, but none should be
easy.

Definitely one: 1st World's Expo
(wiki says: The first Expo was held in The Crystal Palace in Hyde Park, London, in 1851 under the title “Great Exhibition of the Works of Industry of All Nations”. The “Great Exhibition” as it is often called was an idea of Prince Albert, Queen Victoria’s husband, and was the first international exhibition of manufactured products. )

And another probable must is an "Around the World in Very Short Time" that is a combo of a geopolitical wonder (to get time-saving, safe crossing stations) and technological wonder. But perhaps this will be one of the earliest great wonders, with strictly a cultural benefit?

Governments: Should have maximum era flavor, and
include some hypothetical ones.
Probably including: Absolutist Monarchy,
Theocratic Cabal, Analytical Socialist
Tolitarianism (Rule by Analytical machine);
Democratic Republic, Dynastic Monarchy.
Probably also some form of Marxism as a
proxy Communism.

On the nations:

By your story, I think it'd be cool to have non-playable Aztec and Maya guerilla nations, probably with weak, invisible, defensive bombard units. They'd actually be puppets of the Inca through a locked alliance that was team scored.

Similarly, the united North American Indians might have a little obvious diversity. They might be a locked alliance with some subordinate members like the Inuit, Southwest agricultural Indians. Definitely they should have many UU's just to represent the many tribes.

Other non-playables: Indonesian/Taiwan/North African/Caribbean pirates (some North African might actually be Ottoman depending upon the time).

On the non-playable units, and also Incan---they should have some better mobility in the more extreme terrains---jungle, mountains, desert, and tundra. In fact make those types of terrain generally inaccessible to most of the world's units, except for units representing indigenous types. That will make both the steamtech and the playable natives more interesting since they will have better mobillity.

The French American colonies should be independent of France but in locked alliance. They'd more likely be of religious bent I believe, while France will be more Republican. The USA to French colonies relationship should start off good but unlocked.

Random Techs:

Speculative Fiction (optional, perhaps comes from Philosophy+Literature): builds a Jules Verne/HG Wells wonder that causes contentment and raises commerce. Or maybe it should cause discontement (the worries!) while raising research?

Small wonder from Criminology--Consulting Detective (a la Sherlocke Holmes and Dr. Watson) enabling a 'Bobby' specialist (or maybe public Gaslighting should figure into that).

Also uses and misuses of Darwinism (A nasty modern Depotism that also promotes commerce---"Social Darwinism" as well as The Voyage of the Beagle (free techs). Probably also causes unhappiness in Theocratic states.

And why not Lamarckism and Social Lamarckism (optional) leading to an unusual School System with negative and positive benefits? And perhaps leads to Missing Link Humanoidal Apes/ Jersey Devils/Abomidal Snowmen?

Also trying to remember the 'Voltage' experiments on frog's nervous systems and the idea of a bio-soul.....something like that should of course lead to Reanimation/zombies/Frankenstein small/great wonder.

And Lister's Universal Antibiotic and Headache Powder (from Lister of phenol for surgery fame)?

Might as well throw in the Secret Recipe for Cola Nut Beverage Mass Enlightment as a tech (?).

And the Shadowrun spin-off should be the Aegyptological Pyramidical Rift Gate, of course to planet Midgard to import Flintlocke Fantasy troops and Unextinct Terrible Lizards (Nessie!).

perhaps you, KA, should read the His Dark MAterials books? they take a good look into steampunk in them. especially tha last of the books Tha Amber Spyglass. basically Gyropters (heli's) and mecha suits come into play, ans does trains and other such stuff.

There's a fairly old ALT history SF novel that depicts something like an Aztec/Incan self-developed nation. I think the point of departure was the European Black Plague (bubonic) being much worse (rather like small pox was to American indians). I'd think of something like that for an alt-history that makes the North/Meso/South Americans fairly independent, self-developed and on equal trade with Europe----but off course that'd preclude a late 18thC. Nationalism/Napoleonic wars. Maybe something like that more subdued, and originated during the Napoleonic wars (a 'Spanish flu' of 1918 occuring in 1805?) could give indie-America without so much China influence.

Still I see a China trade promoting some stimulation in the Americas.

Leads to another important point----you need the Opium trade/Opium Wars!!! Would a divergent spin-off be Cocaine trade and Cocaine wars? The formulation and origins of Coca-Cola might be more interesting in that ATL. Or even Chocolate wars? And perhaps the early 15th C. American- Chinese contact established one of those trades very early.


I got the idea after reading 1421 The Year China Discovered The World.


That I have not decided yet they would have met China before the Europeans however and there is the possiblility that they may be a client (tributary) state of the Chinese like Srivijaya, Korea and the Phillipines.


They are free but at roughly the same technological level they were in our own time. Their one advantage is that they are united under the Great Tecumseh.

Thinking some more on Napoleon getting killed early---perhaps the flu is a great cause. So when exactly to place his death to perhaps stifle the Napoleonic wars early---since the effect will change how much he influences France to become 'Imperial' and also how much trouble he causes in Europe before dying (which effects things like the American 1812 war and 1812 invasion of Russia ).

Ok, I'm working backwards since you've been busy :goodjob:

There's a fairly old ALT history SF novel that depicts something like an Aztec/Incan self-developed nation. I think the point of departure was the European Black Plague (bubonic) being much worse (rather like small pox was to American indians). I'd think of something like that for an alt-history that makes the North/Meso/South Americans fairly independent, self-developed and on equal trade with Europe----but off course that'd preclude a late 18thC. Nationalism/Napoleonic wars. Maybe something like that more subdued, and originated during the Napoleonic wars (a 'Spanish flu' of 1918 occuring in 1805?) could give indie-America without so much China influence.
Still I see a China trade promoting some stimulation in the Americas.


In the book, 1421 The Year China Discovered The World, China is actually supposed to have been in contact with both the Inca(Chimu) and Aztec "empires". But would China have been able to change the course of history and prevent both empires being devastated?

Re. the flu idea this would have to happen before the Napoleonics in order to have affected the destiny of the Americas but it could be used to explain an independent Mexico and New Granada from Spain which occurs a lot earlier in this scenario.


Leads to another important point----you need the Opium trade/Opium Wars!!! Would a divergent spin-off be Cocaine trade and Cocaine wars? The formulation and origins of Coca-Cola might be more interesting in that ATL. Or even Chocolate wars? And perhaps the early 15th C. American- Chinese contact established one of those trades very early.

I like these ideas and those are resources that I will add to the game. The coca-cola origins sounds intriguing because I haven't read anything about that before.


Thinking some more on Napoleon getting killed early---perhaps the flu is a great cause. So when exactly to place his death to perhaps stifle the Napoleonic wars early---since the effect will change how much he influences France to become 'Imperial' and also how much trouble he causes in Europe before dying (which effects things like the American 1812 war and 1812 invasion of Russia ).
Yes this could be a good idea. I was thinking that Napoleon would still sweep through Europe defeating Prussia, Austria and setting up French Republican institutions and states such as The Grand Duchy of Warsaw. I'm thinking that they would also have brought Russia to their knees - maybe returning French troops could have brought an Asian flu that devastated Europe?

And the Shadowrun spin-off should be the Aegyptological Pyramidical Rift Gate, of course to planet Midgard to import Flintlocke Fantasy troops and Unextinct Terrible Lizards (Nessie!).
Ah that is getting beyond the bounds of how I like my steampunk which is to try to keep things within the limits of "plausible reality". No fantasy stuff for me thanks.

perhaps you, KA, should read the His Dark MAterials books? they take a good look into steampunk in them. especially tha last of the books Tha Amber Spyglass. basically Gyropters (heli's) and mecha suits come into play, ans does trains and other such stuff.
I've nearly bought those books one or two times actually, but I've been put off because they've been marketed at children. It's a bit like Harry Potter which I've also never bought but enjoyed the movies.

Random Techs:

Speculative Fiction (optional, perhaps comes from Philosophy+Literature): builds a Jules Verne/HG Wells wonder that causes contentment and raises commerce. Or maybe it should cause discontement (the worries!) while raising research?

Small wonder from Criminology--Consulting Detective (a la Sherlocke Holmes and Dr. Watson) enabling a 'Bobby' specialist (or maybe public Gaslighting should figure into that).

Definitely, Detective Agencies and Police Forces should feature. I'm not sure about the speculative fiction idea though.


Also uses and misuses of Darwinism (A nasty modern Depotism that also promotes commerce---"Social Darwinism" as well as The Voyage of the Beagle (free techs). Probably also causes unhappiness in Theocratic states.

And why not Lamarckism and Social Lamarckism (optional) leading to an unusual School System with negative and positive benefits? And perhaps leads to Missing Link Humanoidal Apes/ Jersey Devils/Abomidal Snowmen?

These could be government types :goodjob:


Also trying to remember the 'Voltage' experiments on frog's nervous systems and the idea of a bio-soul.....something like that should of course lead to Reanimation/zombies/Frankenstein small/great wonder.

Perhaps I could stretch my "plausible reality" framework to allow for zombies. I am a big zombie fan :)


And Lister's Universal Antibiotic and Headache Powder (from Lister of phenol for surgery fame)?

yes


Might as well throw in the Secret Recipe for Cola Nut Beverage Mass Enlightment as a tech (?).
HaHa, yes I like to have quirky things in so what is the Secret Recipe then? ;)

On the nations:

By your story, I think it'd be cool to have non-playable Aztec and Maya guerilla nations, probably with weak, invisible, defensive bombard units. They'd actually be puppets of the Inca through a locked alliance that was team scored.

I like this idea a lot but maybe just one of the two is sufficient and they needn't start with any cities just troops. Locked alliances are fine but that's as far as I would set it i.e. no locked wars. Locked alliances that I've also thought about are {China, Srivijaya, Phillipines, Korea} and {France, New France (your idea); Poland}. Inca + Aztec/Maya could join this mix.


Similarly, the united North American Indians might have a little obvious diversity. They might be a locked alliance with some subordinate members like the Inuit, Southwest agricultural Indians. Definitely they should have many UU's just to represent the many tribes.

Yes their units will largely be separated geographically by being resource specific until roads are built so plains horseman only from the Great Plains.


Other non-playables: Indonesian/Taiwan/North African/Caribbean pirates (some North African might actually be Ottoman depending upon the time).

I don't know if I have room for many of them. North Africa is still under Ottoman control. Caribbean Pirates are intriguing as a civ but I expected to handle piracy as a government sponsored act (privateering) via a unit/wonder.


On the non-playable units, and also Incan---they should have some better mobility in the more extreme terrains---jungle, mountains, desert, and tundra. In fact make those types of terrain generally inaccessible to most of the world's units, except for units representing indigenous types. That will make both the steamtech and the playable natives more interesting since they will have better mobillity.

Yes jungle could be impassable that way we could maybe have some "Lost Worlds" in Africa and S. America?


The French American colonies should be independent of France but in locked alliance. They'd more likely be of religious bent I believe, while France will be more Republican. The USA to French colonies relationship should start off good but unlocked.
I like this idea the French and USA can start on friendly terms if given the same Govt. preferences so this is quite achievable.

I was wondering if you guys would be interested in my possibly making of some units based off of "Tenku no Shiro Laputa" (a.k.a. Castle in the Sky) or Howl's Moving Castle? Both of those films are by Miyazaki and both are very steampunkish...

OR, since I have the movie, maybe some stuff like what's in Steamboy (by the director who made Akira)?

Of course, most requests would have to wait until the FF mod is done.... It's been almost 3 years since I started that mod, and I'm getting a bit impatient with its lack of progress due to lack of help with units and such, so I've been concentrating ALL my sparse free time on making units for it.

Hikaro - I already have a number of your units earmarked for this one so the more the merrier as far as I'm concerned.

Here's a short wish list:
1) An Armoured Train
2) Zora's (sp.) Airship from Castle in the Sky.
3) A walking castle is not needed LOL but something that looks like a Steam
Driven Mecha.
4) Something that fits before Land Ships and Steam Tanks e.g. an Armoured Tractor with Gatling Guns.

KA, I thought you were a grown man, with enough self confidence to read whatever book you damn well please, without caring about what was fashionable or marketed to a special group. Seems I was wrong. :p

Coca Cola used to contain cocaine, that's were the name comes from. :)

There's a book called Apacheria by Jake Page, about an independent Apache nation, could maybe be an inspiration? :coffee:

KA, I thought you were a grown man, with enough self confidence to read whatever book you damn well please, without caring about what was fashionable or marketed to a special group. Seems I was wrong. :p

Coca Cola used to contain cocaine, that's were the name comes from. :)

There's a book called Apacheria by Jake Page, about an independent Apache nation, could maybe be an inspiration? :coffee:

Why of course LOL. I read many things but as time is so limited I tend to foucs on some types of books at the expense of others. I still flick through my copies of Lone Wolf now and again ;)

Re. coca-cola I knew they made it with cocaine but was that ever a secret? I thought there was something more to the secret that GoodGame was hinting at.

Apacheria sounds like a worthy read to add to my ever growing list :)

I've nearly bought those books one or two times actually, but I've been put off because they've been marketed at children. It's a bit like Harry Potter which I've also never bought but enjoyed the movies.

They're not just marketed at children, they're children's books. But they are excellent - very different from Harry Potter. There can't be many kids' books on the market which are basically a rewrite of Paradise Lost.

I haven't seen the Miyazaki films mentioned, but some of the units from Steamboy would be great!

the His Dark Materials books are absolutely fantastic. as Plotinus said, they may be "childrens books" but they're certainly not in the vein of Harry Potter kids books.

The recipe itself was secret. IIRC it started as one of home brewe snake-oil type recipes. A pharmacist in the 19th C. invented it and then sold the recipe.

I was thinking more of the overall trend of the late 19th century to peddle miscellaneous junk as all-in-on-remedies when the 'active ingredient' it was usually something like alcohol or cocaine. The travelling shows (e.g. Ministrel shows) often sold them.

Why of course LOL. I read many things but as time is so limited I tend to foucs on some types of books at the expense of others. I still flick through my copies of Lone Wolf now and again ;)

Re. coca-cola I knew they made it with cocaine but was that ever a secret? I thought there was something more to the secret that GoodGame was hinting at.

Apacheria sounds like a worthy read to add to my ever growing list :)

Hikaro - I already have a number of your units earmarked for this one so the more the merrier as far as I'm concerned.

Here's a short wish list:
1) An Armoured Train
2) Zora's (sp.) Airship from Castle in the Sky.
3) A walking castle is not needed LOL but something that looks like a Steam
Driven Mecha.
4) Something that fits before Land Ships and Steam Tanks e.g. an Armoured Tractor with Gatling Guns.

how about:
http://www.majic13.com/art/img/steampunk-spaceman.jpg

(looks like this book is a must-buy for inspiration)
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.idwpublishing.com/titles/transformers/images/hos/bumblebee2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.idwpublishing.com/titles/transformers/hos.shtml&h=600&w=396&sz=69&hl=en&start=88&tbnid=G8n2u3N4Ga6EpM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=89&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2Bsteampunk%26start%3D72%26ndsp%3D18 %26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official_s%26sa%3DN
decepticon4.jpg (JPEG Image, 853x600 pixels) - Scaled (97%)
http://www.idwpublishing.com/titles/transformers/images/hos/bumblebee1.jpg
sketch01.jpg (JPEG Image, 422x600 pixels) - Scaled (96%)
http://www.idwpublishing.com/titles/transformers/images/hos/sketch01.jpg
http://www.idwpublishing.com/titles/transformers/images/hos/decepticon4.jpg

It just came to me---the historical idea of a bio-soul was 'Vitality'.



Perhaps I could stretch my "plausible reality" framework to allow for zombies. I am a big zombie fan :)

On China----I think the history was that the fleet was scrapped due to technophobia that got intertwined with political struggle at the top, so that might be hand-waveable. So would China become imperial, or would they promote trade? Or, given their overall isolationism, would China shy away from foreign contact with the Inca, but not before accidentally transfering a science/technology boost to the Inca?

I was thinking many possibilities on the flu. If the flu stops France in the bud from going imperialistic (say when Napoleon is still organizing his country), the English might have a free hand against the US which might have benefits to Amerindians living outside the 13 states.

If the flu is a massive killer like the 20thC. Spanish flu, about 1810+ the weakening of the European military might cause enough pause for a Amerindian confederation to form and become technologically equiped.

If Napoleon invades Russia in 1812, then dies of this Asian flu the effect is much different.


On Cola nut wars---I wasn't merely thinking of the origins of Coca-Cola, or even Coke vs. Pepsi, but think of analogy between the Opium Wars to China, and a Cola nut/Chocolate to an advanced Inca nation.
China's fall to being a colonial possession is mainly due to being manipulated by the Opium trade wars. I think in this scenario, there is not only the possibility of China winning the Opium trade war, but also of the Inca fighting and winning an analogous war (cola/coco nuts)

Ok, I'm working backwards since you've been busy :goodjob:



In the book, 1421 The Year China Discovered The World, China is actually supposed to have been in contact with both the Inca(Chimu) and Aztec "empires". But would China have been able to change the course of history and prevent both empires being devastated?

Re. the flu idea this would have to happen before the Napoleonics in order to have affected the destiny of the Americas but it could be used to explain an independent Mexico and New Granada from Spain which occurs a lot earlier in this scenario.


I like these ideas and those are resources that I will add to the game. The coca-cola origins sounds intriguing because I haven't read anything about that before.


Yes this could be a good idea. I was thinking that Napoleon would still sweep through Europe defeating Prussia, Austria and setting up French Republican institutions and states such as The Grand Duchy of Warsaw. I'm thinking that they would also have brought Russia to their knees - maybe returning French troops could have brought an Asian flu that devastated Europe?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Pemberton

wiki's version of the origins of Coca Cola

On China----I think the history was that the fleet was scrapped due to technophobia that got intertwined with political struggle at the top, so that might be hand-waveable. So would China become imperial, or would they promote trade? Or, given their overall isolationism, would China shy away from foreign contact with the Inca, but not before accidentally transfering a science/technology boost to the Inca?

Yes that is correct. In this timeline they would have continued their voyages of discovery. Essentially they would treat weaker nations as tributary states but offer them protection in return. More developed nations would be open trade partners and this would be the position they would have with the Inca. The Chinese would not be a major colonial force but essentially have a policy of non-interference that promoted cooperation and understanding with different peoples. How this would save the Inca I do not know but a technology boost like you say is the most plausible.


On Cola nut wars---I wasn't merely thinking of the origins of Coca-Cola, or even Coke vs. Pepsi, but think of analogy between the Opium Wars to China, and a Cola nut/Chocolate to an advanced Inca nation.
China's fall to being a colonial possession is mainly due to being manipulated by the Opium trade wars. I think in this scenario, there is not only the possibility of China winning the Opium trade war, but also of the Inca fighting and winning an analogous war (cola/coco nuts)
Fights over important resources is something that the Civ3 engine can handle quite well and this should of course be exploited for maximum fun.

Fights over important resources is something that the Civ3 engine can handle quite well and this should of course be exploited for maximum fun.


Making those localized resources pre-requisites for wonders that the other countries can buld should also make the AI and players fight quite aggressively, too, no?

Thoughts on units/building (to aid coming up with a list):

Three categories:

1. Things that are historical/reasonable for the Industrial/Napoleonic ages, but not 'punked'
e.g. Gatling guns, steam cotton gins, factories, flintlock riflemen and breechloading cannons.

2. Punk-reinterpretations of pre-Industrial things---e.g. Steam Spearmen, Steam Samurai/Ninjas, Steam Trebuchet, Steam Galleys, etc..

3. A-historical porting of Post-Industrial things to the Industrial age. E.g. Steampunk banks with ATM equivalents, Machine guns of steampunk, Steampunk supercomputers and internet, steampunk lasers.

4. Porting of Speculative Fiction (Sci-Fi) ideas through steampunk.
e.g. Aether-vehicles/colonies, Duex Ex factories emulating nanomachines, time travel, riftgates, Giant Mecha, etc.. (I take it you generally don't like these with some exceptions).

Taking a quick peak at America on the map.

I think you should expand the culture of the American cities to cover Ohio and Philadelphia, or much worse, put a few midget cities to represent them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ohio

This would be the perfect mod to incorporate Emperor Norton (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=189108), my leaderhead suggestion. And he would have been exactly the kind of forward-thinking Victorian-Era American to get those mad scientists really cranking.

Emperor Norton would be a perfect, except that California and San Francisco might not get founded in this scenario.


This would be the perfect mod to incorporate Emperor Norton (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=189108), my leaderhead suggestion. And he would have been exactly the kind of forward-thinking Victorian-Era American to get those mad scientists really cranking.

Emperor Norton would be a perfect, except that California and San Francisco might might get founded in this scenario.Who better to build that shining city on a hill...

@King Arthur,

I did a little North America tweak.

In order of 'importance':

Added Philly, and proto-Ohio. Re-routed the pike so it needs a road (or did I?)

Added road to parallel the Mississipi to underscore it's importance to travel; Actually the Louisiana purchase was to guarantee that natural roadway to settlers moving west of Appalachians.

I figured that with the USA not in possession of the LA, they really got to fight Spain for West Florida (southern 'bama) so I added it. Moved your 'Florida' one tile so it clipped the top of the border 'better' and added some 'Seminoles' (offensive units) to a new north marsh. Technically they were provocation for the USA to claim Florida (kind of like Pancho Villa and the USA into Mexico much later).

Added Martinique as a french possession.

Got tired...stopped.

An important question that made me tired: :crazyeye:
Since the exact point of departure isn't clear for this scenario, then what's going on in California is going to be interesting to decide. There may or may not be Spanish missions, without which there may not be much right for Mexico to claim California at this point. So make it a weakly populated member of the United Indians?
If there were still spanish, but lets say never a real Mexico (just Aztecs still doing their own thing), then it should be a very weak Spanish colony named 'Mission' or something.

A good question is how thoroughly/did they even----the Spanish run amok in the West creating missions and defining military districts prior to the start of this scenario?

Added road to parallel the Mississipi to underscore it's importance to travel; Actually the Louisiana purchase was to guarantee that natural roadway to settlers moving west of Appalachians.

Minor or perhaps major point. The present-day banks of the Mississippi were largely emplaced by the Army Corps Of Engineers. Prior to that, swampland lined much of the river's banks; sadly, I don't have time just now to attempt to find an appropriate map.

Best,

Oz

I like those tweaks.

Not sure about the Seminole as they will just get asked to leave. Perhaps put them far south outside the culture boundary.

I was thinking about LA and I'm not sure in this altered timeline who'd be in possession of those lands. Perhaps some Indian tribes. I need to read up on the factors and impetus that led to Spanish settlements there and see if they are logical to appear again. There's no Spanish held Manilla to head for.

@King Arthur,

I did a little North America tweak.

In order of 'importance':

Added Philly, and proto-Ohio. Re-routed the pike so it needs a road (or did I?)

Added road to parallel the Mississipi to underscore it's importance to travel; Actually the Louisiana purchase was to guarantee that natural roadway to settlers moving west of Appalachians.

I figured that with the USA not in possession of the LA, they really got to fight Spain for West Florida (southern 'bama) so I added it. Moved your 'Florida' one tile so it clipped the top of the border 'better' and added some 'Seminoles' (offensive units) to a new north marsh. Technically they were provocation for the USA to claim Florida (kind of like Pancho Villa and the USA into Mexico much later).

Added Martinique as a french possession.

Got tired...stopped.

An important question that made me tired: :crazyeye:
Since the exact point of departure isn't clear for this scenario, then what's going on in California is going to be interesting to decide. There may or may not be Spanish missions, without which there may not be much right for Mexico to claim California at this point. So make it a weakly populated member of the United Indians?
If there were still spanish, but lets say never a real Mexico (just Aztecs still doing their own thing), then it should be a very weak Spanish colony named 'Mission' or something.

A good question is how thoroughly/did they even----the Spanish run amok in the West creating missions and defining military districts prior to the start of this scenario?

I like those tweaks.

Not sure about the Seminole as they will just get asked to leave. Perhaps put them far south outside the culture boundary.

I was thinking about LA and I'm not sure in this altered timeline who'd be in possession of those lands. Perhaps some Indian tribes. I need to read up on the factors and impetus that led to Spanish settlements there and see if they are logical to appear again. There's no Spanish held Manilla to head for.


I think pre-1803 LA would be French. Amerindians like the French due to trade and nice impressions. Maybe the culture should not be very strong vs. the Indians---maybe 0 vs 30 in Amerindians favor)
The French did most of the work, rep, and military infrastructure in LA, so they'd naturally get that back from Spain.

I envision a timeline somthing like this:
Probably the 15th C. China influence gives military support/tech to Incas/Aztecs and they in turn defeat Conquistadors in the field. Result is Spain reigns itself in somewhat, concentrating on easier pickings (carribean and North America). North America is still naturally highly fragmented culturally, so it isn't likely to politically unify easily. Maybe indirectly they get some tech and unify around that, but there are many obstacles---culture, language, and a lack of common politics/external impulse.
Europe still has enough vigor though to shape N. America much like our timeline (and also the high fragmentation of the natives only assists this). Sometime later, a series of events forces most of the Euros, except the USA, to drawback and be isolated. USA doesn't get a population explosion, and if anything ends up promoting unity in the Amerindians by example (which ironically they partly borrowed from the 5 civilized tribes).
Europe recovers/or simmers on itself....Napoleonic Europe still forms but the sideffects of the event from America strikes down Napoleon early. Additionally, it somehow sets in motion the wildly inventive steampower generation. This is their story....Steampunk the Scenario :lol:

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Ranting 'historical' arguements as logical basis:rolleyes::
Amerindians were all over, but in some areas there is a fine degree of sub-regionalization with many small, fragmented groups. That was the weakness vs. federations/prouder groups like the Iroqouis/Sioux/Cherokee IIRC, the Spanish mission system actually hurt the Amerinds even though it was supposedly to help them. It brought them together but also enforced upon them to be dependents of the white man, so that by the time Euros immigrated that far west (by which time they were highly prejudiced) it was effectively a slaughter by the Settlers.

So in some areas like California, lots of Amerinds there, but not a lot of cohesive effort (possibly barb level, or simply one city for Amerinds 'California' and one for Spanish 'Mission' and barbs/goody huts inbetween). Alternatively a large cohesive trans-Canadian tribe moves in on west of the Rockies to set up civilization.

The one problem with finding causation for the Indian federation is that there needs to be an Alexander the great scenario to some extent (conquering citystates to force them to unify). Some great tribes like mentioned will potentially join together. But figure without negative contact with Euros (due to being insulated from Settlers's encroachment), many tribes will not have a strong impulse to unify. And due to a fragmented language system, there is even less impulse to even talk about unifying. The French generally made a positive impression on the Amerindians, except when the English leveraged enemy of my enemy politics by facing tribes against each other. So not a lot negative impulse from them, therefore holding onto parts of LA is not unreasonable.
Argueably Incan/Aztec may be a Alexander-type influence on N. America. But if they do it might trigger a temporary Euro-MA to hold onto the LA region. Who'd win would might be part of the backdrop for the start of this scenario. Possibly the Aztec/Incans grab SouthWest North America. if they show up at all. I think the territorial results in North America will be similar to our time line.

A likely scenario is that Incan/Aztecs still don't show a lot of interest in North America and the first tribes to contact Euros, then steal their tech, use it on their less knowledgeable neighbors, and force unity. Similarly, they develop a unified trade lanquage/pidgin to talk, based on contact with Euros, and possibly on contact with Incans; Easily a pidgin develops if China strongly promotes trans-Pacific trade, which would help unite tribes indirectly via a common culture. Does China do this?

Historically, the Iroquois tried federation by conquest, but they were probably a bit alienatingly all or nothing in their efforts (getting bad rep with their neighbors), bordering on genocide, and also they and their neighbors were already intertwined with Euro politcs, so they didn't have the benefit of truly ignorant neighbors. They might be good candidates for unifying the tribes if the euro's have a waning period and the USA doesn't intervene

So you timeline's departure probably will need a lengthy contact period, followed by a semi-lengthy Euro-disaster/decline (maybe lasting a decade or 20 years) during which an almalgamation of the indians occurs (Tecumseh as Alexander). USA doesn't suffer much for some reason, other than perhaps not as explosive growth.

So beyond China aiding Central/South America, an additional departure that sets up the scenario is that after centuries of sustained contact and initial colonization, there is a drawback during which the Euros don't continue to exploit the new world (short disease shock---perhaps a reverse plague, Amerinds on Europe, but it doesn't have a strong effect in the USA). Maybe this shock happens in short waves, a few years at a time, but the waves have a cumulative negative stimulus on Euro involvements in North America. Maybe by the last shock---say 1800's, the effects are subsiding, but not before influencing Europe by killing off Napoleon.
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I couldn't fit the Seminole as a city and keep the borders historical, but maybe it could be at the expense of Atlanta a little. It'd be nice if it was possible to give cities negative culture to warp their borders.
They belong in the North by the USA/Spanish boundary though.
If they leave that's cool. The idea is they were really Cree that had recently immigrated, and then allied with the Spanish vs. the USA. If they sign a ROP with anyone that's cool, if not they just migrate farther in this timeline.

On that note,
I can't imagine anybody locked in war in North America, as there was still a lot of honor in a way, but with all the strife, I'd imagine most peoples would be Cautious (Spanish vs. English probably Angry, Spanish vs. French probably Cautious to Angry, English to USA as Angry) towards each other. Only the New French and the USA would be certain to have a starting ROP in my opinion (so I guess they'd start out gracious with each other, even though the LA deal didn't happen); Only a strongly negative attitude by Napoleon would change that, and I don't think that would happen if he was preparing to antagonize the British and support anti-monarchy reforms in Europe.

Sorry if that last rant was over-analytical and windy.:wallbash::lol:

Bascially,
I'd like this scenario to have North America look very much historical with all it's peculiarities, except that there is also your idea of a federating (in progress) North American tribal alliance. But the federation is definitely not a smooth thing or likely to spontaneously unify many divergent cultures. It's a kind of a Yugoslavia in way too. Aztec bamboo rocket wielders (like medievalist Chinese shotguns), paid by Incan investment bankers, can invade the SW and parts of Cali for all I care.

The side wild-card is basically how strong and maintained the Chinese intervention in America is (pre-scenario start), and how far the side-effects of it are.

Minor or perhaps major point. The present-day banks of the Mississippi were largely emplaced by the Army Corps Of Engineers. Prior to that, swampland lined much of the river's banks; sadly, I don't have time just now to attempt to find an appropriate map.

Best,

Oz

Maybe it's a wiki-anachronism but I read to the effect that TJ bought it because western moving settlers were complaining. Much prior negotiations between France and the USA were to keep that water way open and to give US citizens right to use warehouses in LA for goods being shipped downriver to port.

Just a side thought....since this timeline has like two departures, maybe it should just be gamed....like set the start of the scenario to much earlier, perhaps right after a China-aided Incan/Aztec force puts down Pizarro, Cortes and gangs? That's kind of the first steampunk event of the game in a way.

No need it was all very interesting and enlightening.

I had planned to keep the federated indians in North America weak - behind in technology; poor infrastructure (no roads); specific government (communal corruption, high war-weariness, above averge unit support cost).

Re. Chinese involvement pre-start date. It's one largely based on speculation. I struggle to see how Chinese intervention could rescue the Inca so it's largely down to washing over that particular problem for the sake of a good story. Alternatively, we can just ditch the Inca.


Sorry if that last rant was over-analytical and windy.:wallbash::lol:

Bascially,
I'd like this scenario to have North America look very much historical with all it's peculiarities, except that there is also your idea of a federating (in progress) North American tribal alliance. But the federation is definitely not a smooth thing or likely to spontaneously unify many divergent cultures. It's a kind of a Yugoslavia in way too. Aztec bamboo rocket wielders (like medievalist Chinese shotguns), paid by Incan investment bankers, can invade the SW and parts of Cali for all I care.

The side wild-card is basically how strong and maintained the Chinese intervention in America is (pre-scenario start), and how far the side-effects of it are.

Maybe it's a wiki-anachronism but I read to the effect that TJ bought it because western moving settlers were complaining. Much prior negotiations between