Just read at wikipedia.com that the people of europe come from europe. So why do some europeans like to be the descendants of the Aryans? Like the Nazis.

I'd always taken "Aryan" to just mean Germanic.

Another meaning refers to the Aryan race, a presumedly more or less directly descendant ethnic group of this original Aryan group. This meaning was, and still is common in theories of European racial superiority, some of which have spread to North American and to India. In Nazi ideology, the Germanic race is believed to be the purest representative of the Aryan race with its diametrical opposite being the Semitic race, represented by the Jews. Nazism portrays the Aryan race as the only race capable of creating culture and civilizations, while other races are merely able of some preservation, or destruction of, culture.

the people of europe come from europe

Not entirely. Everyone with at least one allele of blood type 'B' has Huns/Awars/Magyars/Mongols among his/her ancestors. Even my son... :rolleyes:

What do you mean?

The blood type 'B' is a mutation from 0/A that happened somewhere in the inner-Asian steppe. It was eventually carried over to Europe during the Middle Ages. As a result, B0/BB/AB is most frequent in Hungary, and the frequency declines towards nations not in contact with those tribes (e.g.it is less common in GB than Germany).
Something similar happened during the stoneage with 'A', coming from the Middle East.
The original population of Europe was entirely 00; and in remote regions (like Ireland or Basque), the blood group A is still less frequent than in most parts of Europe.

Or did you ask what 'Allele' and 'Blood Type' means? Or why my son must have some Steppe rider among his ancestors (we need to ask the family of his mother ;) )?

The blood type 'B' is a mutation from 0/A that happened somewhere in the inner-Asian steppe. It was eventually carried over to Europe during the Middle Ages. As a result, B0/BB/AB is most frequent in Hungary, and the frequency declines towards nations not in contact with those tribes (e.g.it is less common in GB than Germany).
Something similar happened during the stoneage with 'A', coming from the Middle East.
The original population of Europe was entirely 00; and in remote regions (like Ireland or Basque), the blood group A is still less frequent than in most parts of Europe.

Or did you ask what 'Allele' and 'Blood Type' means? Or why my son must have some Steppe rider among his ancestors (we need to ask the family of his mother ;) )?

all of western europe is descended form ancient peoples of the steppe,during the intial migrations of humans- but not from as far afield as Mongolia, bu tmore liek modern day uzbekistan- in that light, having "b" type blood dosent mean much of anything

Xen, please, where did you get that nonsense from ;)?
Mankind comes from East Africa, and arrived in Europe in several waves via the Middle East and sometimes the Straights of Gibraltar. The homo sapiens sapiens (=us) most likely origines somewhere in Palestine. There never have been substantial migrations from Asia to Europe; only the Steppe Warriors spread their genes...

And especially, during 'innitial migrations of mankind' everyone was 00; the entire Native American population (most likely getting there about 35000 years ago) was 00 when the Europeans arrived. That's why they were able to use blood transfusions for ritual and medical purposes...stupid white man tried that as well :rolleyes: . Resulting in transfusion being banned by the Pope until Landsteiner discovered the AB= system.

Bloodtype B wasn't around before the ADs.

And please don't tell me about Genetics :lol: - or I'll tell you about Byzantium.

I'd always taken "Aryan" to just mean Germanic.

no it means a lot of civlizations. German, Egyptions, Indians, and other civilzations. i happen to be "Aryan" because i'm Indian

Not entirely. Everyone with at least one allele of blood type 'B' has Huns/Awars/Magyars/Mongols among his/her ancestors. Even my son...

My mother's blood type is AB, and it would be really surprising if she had one of those groups as ancestors... Is there a 100% certainty?

You know, my son is as blond and blue-eyed as you'd expect from a German, and still he is AB. :)
Yes, somehow some inner-Asian genes must have reached your family as well; it's not that a mutation happens twice in nature. But don't suspect your Grandma, that 'event' probably happened some centuries ago ;).

Mankind comes from East Africa, and arrived in Europe in several waves via the Middle East and sometimes the Straights of Gibraltar. The homo sapiens sapiens (=us) most likely origines somewhere in Palestine. There never have been substantial migrations from Asia to Europe; only the Steppe Warriors spread their genes...

that is of course true for the beginning, but the indo-europeans, the ancestors of celts, italics, greeks, germanics, migrated only at 2000-1000 BC to Europe and surplanted all others, they came most likely from middle asia. The basques maybe a remnant of the pre-indo-european population today.

btw, to cling the Aryans to the Indo-europeans is questionable, although the original Aryans (=Iran) could have been a part of them.

Xen, please, where did you get that nonsense from ;)?
Mankind comes from East Africa, and arrived in Europe in several waves via the Middle East and sometimes the Straights of Gibraltar. The homo sapiens sapiens (=us) most likely origines somewhere in Palestine. There never have been substantial migrations from Asia to Europe; only the Steppe Warriors spread their genes...

from the latest word on genetic mapping of y chromasomes in human migrations, that's where. if you wish to dispute it, please, argue the fact with Dr. Spencer Wells, a leadeing Genetist, and Anthropoolgist, not me.

if you want a bette ridea of what I'm aying, please go to this link-
http://www.nationalgeographic.ca/features/journeyofman/



Bloodtype B wasn't around before the ADs.
nonesense. unless you can proove it with cold hard facts, i dont belive for an instant that statement is true.

To get somethings straight:
Of course, parts of the European population (mostly carriers of the A blood group) came directly from Middle Asia - that's why they're called Caucasians after all. But Uzbekiztan is hardly in the Caucasus. And those people didn't emerge there anyway, but migrated from the Middle East.
Blood Group B came up around 15000-10000BC in the Himalaya region, but wasn't around in Europe before the ADs. There may have been singe individuals in the first millenium, but it were the Mongols who spread the allele.
The link Xen provides...well, the author doesn't have a single entry in the National Library of Medicine (and that is something pretty hard to not achieve for an US biologist...). Hardly a "leading Genetist and Anthropologist". Of course, nothing wrong with being a journalist - but if you're "only" a journalist, claiming to be a scientist doesn't make you trustworthy...
Here (http://www.dadamo.com/napharm/store3/template2/encyclopedia.html) is a nice overview on blood groups and migrations (of course, ignore the nonsense about blood group-specific food they're trying to sell, but the article is ok, understandable and with correct references).

The only 'true' Aryans were those who swept into India (and Iran) a few thousand years ago.

Why some want to claim the title was due to bad scholarship... :p

The only 'true' Aryans were those who swept into India (and Iran) a few thousand years ago.


The term "Aryan" refers to any Indo-European, but for some reason the ones who invaded India were never given another name.

btw, to cling the Aryans to the Indo-europeans is questionable, although the original Aryans (=Iran) could have been a part of them.

"Aryan" is probably an early self group name of the Indo-Europeans. Possible descendent words appear in many Indo-European languages.

The group that invaded Iran/India was certainly Indo-European. Very Indo-European.

1- Europeans come from all over the world.

2- Aryanism has been a pseudo-scientifical doctrine which was pathetically trying to distinguish Germans as belonging to a superior race.

3- It's been 60 years that the Nazis are dead and burried. Don't talk about them as if they were contemporary.

4- If you're mentioning who are called "neo-nazis", then this is something hugely different since it's a phenomenon which can't be witnessed from America to Russia.

5- You're talking about something political. Nothing more.

The term "Aryan" refers to any Indo-European, but for some reason the ones who invaded India were never given another name.What I'd read was that 'Aryan' came fr 'Aryas', which meant 'noble ones'. This was the term the Indo-European invaders of India used for themselves.

What I'd read was that 'Aryan' came fr 'Aryas', which meant 'noble ones'. This was the term the Indo-European invaders of India used for themselves.

Yes, they got that word from the original Indo-European language. The Indo-European word that led to Aryas, or rather a descendent thereof, occurs in other Indo-European languages, sometimes as a self group name, sometimes as a word meaning "honor" or somesuch.

We can't know for sure if they started calling themselves that after splitting off from the Indo-European main group or if it is decended from an older Indo-European self group name. The fact that the Old Irish use a similar word to identify themselves leads me to believe that at least some subgroup of the Indo-Europeans greater than just the Indo-Aryans used that as a name.

To get somethings straight:
Of course, parts of the European population (mostly carriers of the A blood group) came directly from Middle Asia - that's why they're called Caucasians after all. But Uzbekiztan is hardly in the Caucasus. that becaus eI didnt say the causcus. i said Uzbekastan.


The link Xen provides...well, the author doesn't have a single entry in the National Library of Medicine (and that is something pretty hard to not achieve for an US biologist...). Hardly a "leading Genetist and Anthropologist". Of course, nothing wrong with being a journalist - but if you're "only" a journalist, claiming to be a scientist doesn't make you trustworthy...

if its credentials your lookign for, try these on for size-

Growing up in Texas, Wells was captivated by history and science, dual interests fueled by viewing the treasures of King Tutankhamun's tomb and watching James Burke's acclaimed 1979 PBS science and technology documentary Connections. Hanging out with his mother in the lab as she pursued a Ph.D. in biology also helped awaken his interest in using hard science to study the past.

A child prodigy, Wells entered the University of Texas, Austin, at 16. He graduated Phi Beta Kappa in 1988 with a degree in biology. In 1989 he was accepted to pursue a doctorate in biology under evolutionary geneticist Richard Lewontin at Harvard University.

At Harvard, Wells became obsessed with the question of whether the story of human origins and migration could be discovered by analyzing tiny changes in DNA. After receiving his doctorate in 1994, he headed to Stanford University in California.

Working with population geneticist Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza at Stanford, Wells learned to decipher human history by reading the "documents" encoded in the DNA of living humans. Combining his research with that of archaeologists, paleoanthropologists, paleoclimatologists, and linguists, he began to get a sense of how modern humans came to populate the planet. In 1998 Wells left Stanford to collect blood samples from isolated tribes in the former Soviet republics of the Caucasus and Central Asia for DNA analysis.

Wells later worked at the Wellcome Trust Centre for Human Genetics at Oxford University in England, then as a research director of a biotechnology company in Massachusetts, and finally as an unusual mixture of scientist, writer, and filmmaker. Throughout these pursuits, Wells pieced together the story of The Journey of Man.


Here (http://www.dadamo.com/napharm/store3/template2/encyclopedia.html) is a nice overview on blood groups and migrations (of course, ignore the nonsense about blood group-specific food they're trying to sell, but the article is ok, understandable and with correct references).

no it snot- I've had the nemfit of actually learnign genetics first hand from univeristy professor, ina small classroom envroment- I can can safelyl sya that haf of thwat the article says is complet BS, from it claiming the type B blood type is "geographically limited', to it claiming, absurdlly, that diet led to the changing of the blood type- which a compltelyl absurd statement, and where i gre too disguste dot continue reading the garbage.

Xen - let's not threadjack that any longer, but do you really think someone with such a biography wouldn't have written a single article worth to be included in the NLM, not even as a co-author? It's not that you won't find me there...my thesis is about polymorphic genetic markers ;).
And while it is BS that nutrition can change blood groups, the evolutionary pressure from food and parasites associated with it or the higher susceptibility to diseases due to bloodgroups is a matter of fact. Same as the origin of blood groups.

Xen - let's not threadjack that any longer, but do you really think someone with such a biography wouldn't have written a single article worth to be included in the NLM, not even as a co-author? It's not that you won't find me there...my thesis is about polymorphic genetic markers ;).
And while it is BS that nutrition can change blood groups, the evolutionary pressure from food and parasites associated with it or the higher susceptibility to diseases due to bloodgroups is a matter of fact. Same as the origin of blood groups.

A)this is pertinant to the discussion- what are th eorigins of europeans

B)I dont actually what anyone has in any particuler group of scientist or authoers- its all about university credentials, and works that have been compiled, and how, and what factual basis they have- I coudl care less if the NLM existed, it simply dosent matter what so ever in the longrun. The man obviouslly has the creditials, and, rathe r obviouslly, to be financed and backed by a body such a national geographic, a damn good scientist, who knows what hes doing,- the fact that his credential are written down is merey a further varifyie rof what is already painfull obvious

C)the article woudl have one belive that differnt blood types arouse becaus eof nutrition, not because random mutations made the blood type a better factor in human survival in that region, and it still dosent dismiss the fact that the blood type isnt limited in fashion to a single area in the world, and I'd go so far as to say that the assumption that the blood type didtn exist until the middle ages is so completlyl bull****, it should't even mentioned.

3- It's been 60 years that the Nazis are dead and burried. Don't talk about them as if they were contemporary.

Tell that to the Nazi's living in nations such as Argentina and across the world and the Nazi hunters out to get them ;)

Not to be inpolite or anything but you guys haven't answered my question: why do some europeans like to be the descendants of the Aryans?

Not to be inpolite or anything but you guys haven't answered my question:why do some europeans like to be the descendants of the Aryans?
Because they misguidedly think that the aryans were the original gangsta white men, and they want to be as white as possible.
As you've seen in this thread, these claims have all been refuted by the scientific community.

I coudl care less if the NLM existed, it simply dosent matter what so ever in the longrun. The man obviouslly has the creditials, and, rathe r obviouslly, to be financed and backed by a body such a national geographic, a damn good scientist, who knows what hes doing,- the fact that his credential are written down is merey a further varifyie rof what is already painfull obvious


"National Geographic" isn't considered more scientific than Reader's Diggest outside US. They produce TV shows with nice animations, but little substance.
Don't believe what you see on television.
And publishing somewhere to end in the NLM isn't all about credits; and especially, when someone lists to have worked with some of the most important Anthropologist, that only means he never has published anything in a Science Magazine. Still, hemay be a good journalist and author, but he is no more confidential than anyone working for mass media.
A mutation happens only once and at one place of the world (deletions aside, but A and B are additional glycosides). Period. If you want to discuss that, not with me; any discussion about that is like discussing about Bible/ToE - a matter of believes.

On topic:
My problem with the original question is: What makes you think the Europeans hang on the "Aryans"? Not even the German Neonazis use that term much today; I for one see it used nearly exclusively in the US and South Africa.

One should also not forget that ARYAN and ARYAN are two different, but related things.
We already talked about Indo-Germanic influences, Aryans would thus be people from today's Iran - roughly...

But Nazis, on the other hand, saw the Term Aryan more as this:

"Fair hair, blue eyes, nordic type" and of course of high intellect, sheer beauty and capable of creating culture. Lower and inferior races are only parasites that derive their little achievements from Aryan influence.


Their interpretation is biased, shallow but typical of the Nazi era. They also corrupted medieval concepts of unquestioned loyality and honor in a semi-idiotic and even somehow romantical way. They united for example all positives values (strength, courage, leadership...) of Siegfried with the stalwart loyality and the will to fight to the very end of Hagen in their "Siegfried", corrupting and changing the sense of the Nibelungen epic.

Funnily, Hitler stopped some really fanatic Nazis who wanted to clean the german language of words like Nase / nose, because they were not of germanic origin. The replacement would have been most probably Gesichtserker / "face gazebo".

In regards of blood type, this was part of the "Rassenlehre", so I must assume that Doc or at least his son is a descendant of Attila the Hun if there are some other important aspects to be found, I hope he has a good aryan nose ahh Gesichtserker I meant - at least. :p


So I will conclude that being of ARYAN origin has different meanings. I think it is mainly blond and blue-eyed guys who take some pride in being the ideal of a long gone facist and racist regime. I want to point out, that one must not necessarily be of aryan origin to be so stupid. ;)

Addendum:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/redgold/basics/racialhygiene.html

Blood groups provided a hope for many that the various races could be accurately distinguished.

Reche felt that blood group research had important policy implications for the Nazi state. He described in vivid terms the negative consequences of allowing enemy ("feindliche") blood groups (A and B, for example) to mingle with one another. If a person of blood type A, for example, were to receive blood from an individual of type B, this could result in the destruction of the circulatory system and possibly even in the death of the recipient. He noted that the ability to distinguish blood types was important in police work and in the determination of paternity: "In some cases, it can be ascertained whether or not an illegitimate child is the offspring of a Jewish father, because the Asiatic B blood type is more common among Jews than among Europeans."70 Reche conceded that such tests were never conclusive, given that no single blood type was typical among Jews; most Nazi physicians admitted this was the case.

Reche and others, however, believed that even though there was no necessary correlation between race and blood type, the methods developed in the new science were important for Germany's new racial legislation.

Very true, you hardly find a random group of people in Germany that look less 'Aryan'/Nordic like Hitler,Göring, Himmler, Goebbels. The only one in the higher ranks who could qualify was Hess (and some say, that was his only function).

Still, the entire 'Aryan' topic isn't used much by modern day European Nazi scum...they prefer 'Herrenrasse'/'Masterrace'.

Edit:
Nice link, Longasc!

It needs to be said that even the Nazi 'Scientists' were so incredibly ignorant in understanding the laws of genetic (especially the Hardy-Weinberg principle, about a fixed frequency of rare alleles), that individuals suffering from recessiv genetic diseases like Cystic Fibrosis or Albinism (in otherword, homozygotic carriers of the mutated allele), were not allowed to marry or have kids, and sometimes even forced to sterilization - something not only cruel, but complete nonsense as well.

Don't Celts, Germans, Persians, the India invading Aryans, all fall under the category of "Aryan" since they all spoke the indo-european language and supposedly originated from a similar region around the caspian sea/northern iran. Do the ancient mediterranean people (Greeks, Spanish) also fall under the indo-european category or are they a different group?

I have B positive bloodtype, might be explained because we trace some ancestors back to Iran, central Asia.

"National Geographic" isn't considered more scientific than Reader's Diggest outside US. They produce TV shows with nice animations, but little substance.
Don't believe what you see on television.

another assumption- i didnt see it on telivision- i read of him, and his work, in an article about human origins


And publishing somewhere to end in the NLM isn't all about credits; and especially, when someone lists to have worked with some of the most important Anthropologist, that only means he never has published anything in a Science Magazine. Still, hemay be a good journalist and author, but he is no more confidential than anyone working for mass media. I woudl beg to differ- I'm more then willign to bet that his work has been published in journals of science, just perhaps not the one your looking at, or mabey in a different catagory- after all, his work dosent fit in with biology, or gentics, despite him using them, as it dose with strct anthropology, and pre-history


A mutation happens only once and at one place of the world (deletions aside, but A and B are additional glycosides). Period. If you want to discuss that, not with me; any discussion about that is like discussing about Bible/ToE - a matter of believes.- not so, gentic mutations of the same type happen all over the world, every day- thats how diseases caused by gentic mutation are cause dby gentic mutation, and still considered diseases, and not some fluke of genetic varience- thier is no evidence what so ever to support that type B blood wasnt a gentic mutation that occured in several regions, at different times, and because no one region has such a dominace in any type of blood to be conclusive in any sense of the word at that area being the location for a blood types origin, the entire train of argument has no base.

Do the ancient mediterranean people (Greeks, Spanish) also fall under the indo-european category or are they a different group?
Not all. Since 2nd millenium BC migrations in Greece were Indo-European, but Minoan culture and very early Aegean cultures may have had non-Indo-European origins.

A little late but I have blood type 0, what does that mean? I am not a steppe dude?

I am happy to tell you that you have good chances to have at least traces of noble aryan blood in your veins!

I would start telling this everyone around you, they will probably tell you how they admire you. ;)

Aryan the nazi definition or aryan the caucasian dudes that originated in central asia?

More the 2nd. But as you can see from the links provided above, blood type is only a clue... but no proof.

A little late but I have blood type 0, what does that mean? I am not a steppe dude?

:lol:

Not much. It's not like Inner-Asians are entirely BB; there are 00 individuals as well (and B0, and any combination with A) . The absence of an A or B allele doesn't mean much. Well, except that neither of your parents can have AB, and you have a slightly higher risk to die to the Black Plague, in case you somehow manage to get infected.

No, you shouldn't tell everyone you'd have Aryan blood; remember, native Americans have almost exclusively 00!

I wasn't aware that Europeans have any special cravings to be "Aryan"?

If you don't mean the right wing neo-nazis why try to keep alive a hodge-podge of nazis science culled from a mix of 19th century studies of linguistics, archaeology and physical anthropology (the original "science of race")

"Aryans" were quite central to continental studies of prehistory in the 19th c. "Indo-europeans" are still alive and well in parts of linguistics, and "Aryan" was once a synonym for "indo-european".

Many people cannot get over WW2. Even though it seems that europe is the "continent of peace", they hate each other. Soccor riots, anyone?

from what iv read, (in a fiction book) iran is ayran not arab

Many people cannot get over WW2. Even though it seems that europe is the "continent of peace", they hate each other. Soccor riots, anyone?

Soccer Riots? There is no soccer in Europe.

And, the Football Hooligans nearly exclusively support their local Club, not the national team. And their behated 'enemies' aren't the foreign fans, but the fans of the club next door...Glasgow someone?
Admittedly, there were some ugly scenes at the '98 World Championship, but nothing worth reporting during the Euro Championships in '00 and '04.

I have to agree with what I saw someone post a few pages ago:
I don't get the impression Europeans are very hung up on the Aryan stuff. It's kinda so that if you call yourself Aryan, or talk too much about Aryan people, you are seen as a Nazi, at least that's how it's here in Norway...