SGOTM5 - Russia. Game Thread Team MOTH.

Hi everyone, and welcome to the SGOTM5 Game thread.

Note: EVERYONE will have to install the correct resource graphics whether or not they have played SGOTM4.


Here is the start position.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5-starta.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5-startb.jpg

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Russia
World size - Large, 25% land give or take.
Difficulty Regent - but plays harder.
The map is handbuilt, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

Here are a couple of links you might find useful.

The original GOTM23 Announcement. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/gotm23_arabs.shtml)
The Constitution (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1733966&postcount=61)
The GOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=71788)
SGOTM5 Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=105346)

This Months' sponsored variant is OBCC - One Built City Conquest the rules for which are as follows.

1. You may never build a settler.
2. You must win by conquest victory condition.

Checking in. Anyone here a fog-gazer?

Edit: Looked at the save. There's also a forest to the south. We have 15 opponents.

Checking in as well. I get to be team captain this time with my own team name. I'm usually pretty decent at fog gazing, but I don't see anything in this start.

Forest on Tundra or tundra on every tile we can see even a little of...

I'm thinking that the 1st player will explore at least 2 turns and then maybe check back in.

I'm thinking Explorer west to the mountain, settler South, and worker North. If we find any decent land it will be on one of the rivers I think.

M60 reporting in. Having trouble already with the file set-up. Can't open the test PTW file at the moment. Waiting to hear back from our resident tech support. ;)

@ TB: Where's the save file? Hadn't seen it anywhere.

@ TB: Where's the save file? Hadn't seen it anywhere.
On the submission list page. Here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php).

The save is also right herer (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_BC4000_01.SAV) for quick reference.

As for setting up the rotation, I'd like to take advantage of timezones if possible.

I am in Mass, USA, Eastern Timezone (GMT -5 I think). It looks like M60 tank boy is also in Mass. Chamnix is NJ, so eastern as well.

Tim, what timezone is Illinois?

stagnate, where are you located?

M60, where abouts in Mass? I'm in Southboro in between Framingham and Worcester, but I grew up in Salem NH and Andover up in the Merrimack Valley.

Not too far down south of you, in Franklin. I see you and TB were on Team Bede for SGOTM4. I skipped that one, played on Team Sesn for SGOTM3.

Tim, what timezone is Illinois?
Central Time

Now up and available. That "stealth sheep" was almost invisible in the test file. :lol:

I think priority criteria for Moscow should be:
2 food bonuses
river
coastal

Mad-bax commented that there is 25% land in his hand designed map, so I think we should get a coastal spot if possible.


While we wait for two more check-ins the rotation will be:

M60
TimBentley
Chamnix
stagnate
MOTH

Hey, I just noticed that Chamnix's post count is 1: congrats on you first post, and to signup up at that :band:

Checking in, out of town until Tuesday so not able to play any turns before that. I'm in mountain time.

Checking in...

I assume we are playing in PTW since everyone else elected that - I've only had PTW for about a week, so I am not as familiar with it. No matter how hard I look I cannot see a sheep in the test file. I unzipped the file in the scenarios directory, and the SGOTM 5 folder appeared as it was supposed to, but when I loaded the test game - no sheep. Is there some additional step that would be obvious to anyone familiar with PTW that I am missing, or should I contact mad-bax?

As far as our start, I agree with MOTH that scout to the western mountain is first - a river is better than no river, and the western mountain will reveal more tiles than the southeastern one. Settler south sounds good since both rivers flow south. Hopefully those moves will reveal something so the worker will head south or west to out future city site instead of moving him away, but if there is nothing to be seen, then we will have to use him to explore as well.

All of MOTH's city criteria would be great, but I have a feeling we won't be that lucky. I think 2 food bonuses is probably too much to ask for - the fast growth from food would be great, but food may not be as important in this game as in most since we won't be building settlers (we are playing variant, right?).

I didn't cover initial builds or research. Any thoughts?

Builds I think we should build 2 more scouts. I'd like us to get to goody huts before our neighbors. Goody huts will have a very good chance of getting techs or units for us.

As for reseach, we start with Bronze Working and Alphabet. We are only at regent level, so happiness won't immediately be an issue. I think we should go for Warrior Code so that we can build Archers and Heroic Epic.

The thing that is common in the OBC games is an early lack of money. We need to make sure we don't build too many units or improvements.

If possible, I'd like us to build the Colossus for the added money, but that will depend on how close are neighbors are and when we can start gaining cities.

Early recon info for everyone. West move by our scout revealed a cow on the coast. :) Thoughts?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5_MOTH_4000BC.JPG

As for the test game, the sheep should be Southeast of the start location. I am running Civ3 Gold. Maybe the location is slightly different if you are running Complete or Conquests...

Make sure you are running the PTW executable and not one of the others.

Cow by the coast. Excellent. And lots more tundra near the equator. hmmm... I think mad-bax has probably setup a barren world for the player's start location.

I think the worker and settler should head to the west as well. The scout should explore the immediate area near the cow so we can get the best location.

As Chamnix said, we might not get two bonus food and that's ok. I would like to consider some pop-rushes as we grow to big, but we need t try and get to as bug as we can quickly.

The sheep is also not much more than an outline, and very hard to see on the plains tile. A right-click to do the terrain analysis will verify that it's there.

I could see the sheep clearly in the test save, but then again they were there for SGOTM4, so I would have been in trouble if I couldn't see them. I'll post a screenie of the test save as an edit in a few minutes....

Here's the screenie of the test save...
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/testsave.jpg

I have the feeling there's an approximately as good location in the other two directions. Regardless, I see no reason not to go west.

Warrior code and some scouts sound good. By the time we stop getting techs from goody huts, maybe we'll have captured or soon be ready to capture more cities so we can have good research.

Sounds like you have the resources_ shadows file installed correctly but not the Resources file. I'll post a solution a bit later. I have a prior engagement to go to first.

Sorry, TB. Don't understand. You are saying you wouldn't go west to that location? Next turn revealed that location wasn't quite as promising as it seemed, with only about 3 grassland tiles surrounded by coast and tundra. I'm considering sending the worker back up that mountain tile SE of the start position to see if there isn't something better before the settler is committed.

M60, I think Tim meant to include the word 'not' in his sentence. IE: I see no reason 'not' to send the settler west.

That's what I thought. Now am I going 10 or 20 turns? 10 complete so far. A lot of ice and snow.

I can right-click on the SE tile and the terrain info says sheep there, but there is nothing visible... I can just wait until mad-bax has some time...

Settling next to the cow on the river and coast is probably as good as it gets... I'd hate to waste too may turns wandering since I wouldn't expect to find anything better anyway.

Builds I think should be a couple scouts followed by a barracks (with a forest chop? Do we have more than one forest in our extended radius?) then military. We want more than one city fairly quickly.

I think research could be iron working on minimum. We can probably trade for warrior code if we don't pop it. I'd like to see if we have iron in those mountains so we can use swords (upgraded from warriors) - if not then we are stuck with archers.

M60 - 20 turns for the first player is standard, so go ahead with 10 more.

We want to be sure about chopping any tundra forest as we can't re-plant them for a while. Once we see the start location we can calculate maximum size and sheild production.

I did forget to include the word "not" in my sentence. Upon further thought, I realize warrior code could be obtained in ways other than researching it. I think we might be able to beat the AI to iron working if we researched at max (it costs 144 beakers). The wheel could be a high priority for the AI (is Japan in this game?). It depends on the commercial status of the capital, of course. Or we could go for warrior code if we want a fast archer rush.

The map at 3000BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5_MOTH_3000BC.JPG)

4000BC (Turn 0) Team consensus seems to be head settler west. Doing so reveals a cow on the coast with river, so that is very promising. Head settler and worker in that direction.

IBT-zzzz

3950BC (Turn 1) Scout’s next move reveals the terrain to be less attractive than first thought. Only about 3 grass tiles, with the remaining land mass still tundra. Decide to send the worker on a trip away from what we think will be our capital. In doing so, I just want to make sure we are not missing a much better opportunity.

IBT-zzzz

3900BC (Turn 2) Scout north revealing nothing significant, worker onto the mountain reveals wheat tile and land similar to the western location. But not significantly better, so continuing the settler west still seems best play.

IBT-zzzz

3850BC (Turn 3) Scout still sees little of interest in north, worker on his way west, settler west also.

IBT- zzzz

3800BC (Turn 4) Settler moves to what will be capital location. See GH across the water which we’ll pop on culture pop. Scout sees a GH north, worker still returning west.

IBT-zzzz

3750BC (Turn 5) Marcomanni GH popped by scout provides us 25g. Moskva founded.
Scout in 5.

IBT-zzzz

3700BC (Turn 6) Pottery @ 90%, due in 12. worker movement reveals fur 3 tiles SE of Moskva.

IBT-zzzz

3650BC (Turn 7) Nothing

IBT-zzzz

3600BC (Turn 8) Worker arrives at cow.

IBT-zzzz

3550BC (Turn 9) Worker starts irrigating cow tile.

IBT-zzzz

3500BC (Turn 10) Nothing

IBT-zzzz

3450BC (Turn 11) 25 gold from Burgundian village by north scout.

IBT-zzzz

3400 (Turn 12) South scout learns CB from Iberians.

IBT-zzzz

3350BC (Turn 13) worker finishes irrigation, starts road.

IBT- Moskva scout>rax

3300BC (Turn 14) Noth scout sees another GH.

IBT- Moskva expands but the GH Bulgar village is deserted.

3250BC (Turn 15) North scout GH pops a map.

IBT- zzzz

3200BC (Turn 16) Pottery in 1 with science @ 70%. Road finished, worker to BG tile.

IBT- Pottery in, writing in 40 @ min science.

3150BC (Turn 17) Switch Moskva from rax to granary. Scouts move about, nothing seen. Lux to 10% to keep pop happy.

3100BC (Turn 18) Scouts wander.

IBT- zzzz

3050BC (Turn 19) Southern scout sees another GH.

IBT- zzzz

3000BC (Turn 20) Hut pops a conscript warrior. And done.

Post turn: Firaxis score 35. I went with pottery/writing because it makes sense to get our one city up in pop as soon as possible, plus those two techs combined can get us to MM which we need to get a galley off this land and explore. First 3 builds for scouts has our land pretty well explored. You can see there was no ideal city site, the grassland locations off the start position only have about 4-5 tiles. Moskva is scheduled to pop in 4 with the granary in 5, so it will need to be managed in order for that the food bin isn’t emptied before the granary completes. No civs detected, so not much need for a military yet, unless some barbs show up. We will want to connect that fur tile 3 SE of Moskva at some point.

The save file (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_BC3000_01.SAV)

I got it, but I won't play yet.

Guys: It is me who mad the mistake. The test save is for SGOTM4 of course, and looks for everything in a directory called SGOTM4. Since we are playing SGOTM5 then the game looks for resources in a folder called SGOTM5.

I've attached another test save. You should see goats to the NE. I'm sorry for being a bit thick. It was a bit hectic last night.

I see a faint outline of a goat or two, and the terrain reads as goats there, but again on my screen they're not at all clear images. Don't know what that's all about.

The new save works for me and I see Goats on the desert to the NW.

I just took a look at the save.

We have a max size of 7 or until we get a harbor. I don't think we need the granary at this point. The 1 gpt cost is big when you take into account the need for unit support. Lets build a few workers as we grow and join them back in when we reach size 5. I think building the temple now will help with happiness and will push the border expansion to include the furs quicker.

It doesn't look like any neighbors. If we are truely on an island, then we should wait on the barracks as well.

I think we should switch the granary to a temple, then build 1 defensive unit, 1 worker, then start the Colossus. I think the extra cash for Colossus will pay off huge in terms of research and unit support.

Sounds fine with me.

I basically just built in the order MOTH suggested. I forgot to disband the two scouts in the west (was thinking to disband them in Moskva, but Colossus is being built). The warrior and scout in the east have a couple of tiles to scout, then the scout should be disbanded and the warrior should go home as a MP. We should go for map making as soon as writing is done.

Here is the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_BC2550_01.SAV).

Got the save & I've got goats in the test file - I will play now.

Don't forget to submit the savesat this location (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm.php) so that the graphs on the submission list update.

The save:http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_BC2150_01.SAV

Pre-Turn (2550): Nothing to do.

Turn 1 (2510): Worker roads. Disband 2 scouts. Explore some more.

Turn 2 (2470): Workers move. Explorers explore.

Turn 3 (2430): Workers road. Explorers explore.

Turn 4 (2390): Workers work. Explorer explores. Warrior starts homeward.

Turn 5 (2350): Workers work. Explorer explores.

Turn 6 (2310): Workers move. MM Moskva to gain one extra gold on growth.

Turn 7 (2270): Luxuries to 10% to keep Moskva from rioting. Workers road. Disband final scout. Our military is now not costing anything. We are definitely alone. Going for map making was definitely the right call.

Turn 8 (2230): Workers work.

Turn 9 (2190): Workers work.

Turn 10 (2150): Workers work.

A turn log is definitely overkill at this point, but I figured since this is my first SG, I should try to develop good habits. This game is going to be pretty dull until map making. The furs will be roaded before Moskva expands, and the near forest will be roaded before growth. We just have to get a worker over to the game forest to road that and make more roads to snag future resources.

I almost forgot to mention that I'm going home (from college) for Thanksgiving and there's a very low chance I'll be able to play from Wednesday to Sunday. It might be a good idea for MOTH to play before stagnate, since he said he'll be gone until Tuesday.

got it, and played it. I'll let the turn log bump to the next page in a few minutes.

:bump: move along little doggie :bump:

turn 1-4: move warrior home, road some tundra
turn 5: warrior is now home and borders have expanded to include furs - reduce lux again.

IBT - a barb is heading towards our fur

turn 6: dispatch spear to defend furs - see another barb warrior 1 turn out.

IBT - barb attacks spear - we win with no damage or promotion. Moscow grows to size 6.

turn 7: increase lux again. Spear heads toward second warrior.

IBT - Warrior attacks spear - we win an promote to vet.

turn 8: mine a tundra (we won't need it until gov't change.) MM for +1 gold with Colossus due in 3. Spear looks for and finds barb base.

IBT - barb warrior in the North a few turns out from our workers.

turn 9: Spear attacks barb base and wins with 1 damage.

IBT - The people love me and build a nice paved entrance to our cave (castle). Barb in the north stays put.

turn 10: spear heads home. MM Moscow for +1 gold again.

Status: Colossus is due IBT and Writing is due in 7 turns.

Save: save file for 1750 BC (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_BC1750_01.SAV)

Firaxis: 66
Jason: 43

Rotation: When someone needs a skip, we will just keep them in the on-deck spot until they are back. This should keep things moving. If M60 gets a turn in today/tonight then Tim should take a turn since he will get skipped a few times. If M60 doesn't get a turn in then stagnate should be on deck.

Up: M60
On Deck 1: TimBentley - skip Wed through Sunday
On Deck 2: stagnate - skip until Tuesday
Chamnix
Just played: MOTH

Look for a strategy post next.

Strategy - Please discuss what you think is best. All of my games end up as Diplomacy wins, so conquest is something new for me. Early game planning is usually my strength.

Effect of Colossus: This is going to give up +1 GPT in moscow tile, and +1 GPT in the non-river tiles that have been roaded. Once we get out of Despotism it will pay even more.

Location Analysis: Under Despotism with a harbor and choping the grass/forest we can work: Cow, Game, Bonus Grass, Grass+?, 4x Forest, 4x Coast for 24 food, 15 shields, and 28 commerce.
Under Monarchy the commerce goes up big, and sheilds can go up a few if we stay at 24 food.

Key city sizes are:
5 - spt of 10 with +2 food.
8 - spt of 15 with no extra food.
Everything else is more commerce than one of the above sizes.

Tech: once we have Writing go maximum science (negative GPT) for MM. I think this will come take about 25 turns (32 from now). Then go max on Literature. Everything else will likely have been researched by the AI's by the time we meet them.

City Improvements: I still don't think we need a granary, but it could make a partial pre-build for a harbor. See units for ideas on growth with harbor.

Barracks: Don't build it yet. It would be good as we need to start training some Elite units, but these will be crap warriors or spears. Instead we could train Regulars up to Vet using barbs if we plan on eventual upgrades.

Harbor: Top priority once we have researched MM.

The Great Lighthouse: This would be a key wonder given that differential naval move is on. This extra MP will be key in crossing seas/ocean and trading over sea to get our conquest done as soon as possible. Consider starting this once 3 galleys have been built.

Capital District Land Improvements: Chop the forest over grass and then mine it. Eventually we will irrigate this tile for surplus food. This is the only other tile that improves our food situation and will let us get to size 8+. Use a galley to transfer a worker and defense across the straights to build roads on the game and other forests.

Units: Workers: Size 5 is a good size for Moscow right now. Build a worker each time we are about to reach size 6 (including as soon as we build colossus.) These will be joined back in once we have enough surplus workers to push us up to size 12.
Warriors: don't build warriors until we are close to getting Iron Working. The upkeep is too expensive on warriors.
Spearmen: These are efficient 2 turn builds at 10 spt and disband for 5 sheilds. We should build these (with occassional workers) until we are close to researching MM and then disband some to help build a harbor. Send some out barb hunting.
Galleys: Build 3 (with 1 spear each) for exploring and suicide runs. Replace them as they are lost.

I'll grab this tomorrow night if it hasn't been taken. No comments yet because I haven't seen the map.

A lot of good points, MOTH. Good location analysis and we certainly need a harbor. My conquest strategy would be substantially different. We have land. The AI wants land. We can't build towns on our land. The AI can. We are alone on our land mass. That will change as we'll in time have more boats in our waters than Cape Cod in July. What we employ is the "2 and gone" strategy. Something like the spider and the fly. Essentially it means we want the AI to come onto our land and build a town. "Cheap and plentiful beachfront property still available! Call now before it's too late!" Then we want that town to grow to size 2. Then we want that town for ourselves. By capturing towns on our own landmass, we build a faster base for our eventual overseas conquest.

What's required:

1. The AI needs to find us, or we find them and sell them our map. Will happen hopefully when galleys start to sail in one direction or another.

2. Basic road network across our land. Nothing fancy, but we need to commit some workers to build roads in the directions from our capital that the AI will settle.

3. Simple Pop 2 town conquering force. About 6 vet horsemen should do it at the start. The AI isn't going to be able to land substantial troops on our land until galleons. It will probably be your standard spear/pike settle pair in the initial galley wave.

4. Techs of Wheel and HBR. Needed for horsemen. If we continue to conserve cash after MM, we should be able to buy those from the AI.

5. Rax in Moskva so we have vet horsemen.

6. Short wars. Once we take towns, we'll be at war for a short time. Make peace as soon as possible, since it was all a big misunderstanding, the fault of a renegade warlord, full moon, etc. Then after 20, strike again where applicable.

With the basic road net, our horsemen could cover our landmass to get to most settled sites, then wait for them to reach size 2. The roads also serve to connect up towns we capture. We would have to be active in our patrols of the area so we know when new opportunities arise. In the meantime, any barbs that show up provide our horsemen extra experience.

Potential roadblock: The AI can't reach us due to sea/ocean tiles. We should know the answer to that one before too long. Then reevaluate the strategy.

Think of it as the indians having the pilgrims over for Thanksgiving dinner. The pilgrims just don't know they're the main course. :devil2:

M60, Can you do one set of turns before tomorrow or should we just let stagnate have it?

The road net is a great idea. It gives us something to do with all the workers I want us to build... It will also help us to hook up horses or iron if they are not close by. I think we should work on a road up and around to our Cape Cod - either of the mountains to our west could have iron and we would need the road to get it back home.

I like the horsemen stacks. A long time from now they will upgrade to our UU.

The potential roadblock is not that big with differential sea movement the straights that can be crossed are big. As learned in SGOTM4, The AI will cross coast-sea-ocean-sea-coast gaps with no problem (once they know about them).

Some great ideas and analyses – this is what I hoped to learn to do when I joined this SG!

I agree with both of you. A few workers to build a road net are certainly useful while we are sitting around waiting for a harbor. We also may need a few for colonies.

Another potential roadblock – we may not have horses. Hopefully we will have at least horses or iron.

I think we are likely to find the AI long before they are ready to settle our continent for us. If we go with M60’s attack strategy (we can also try to get pop 1 cities in peace deals), then I don’t think there is any hurry to build barracks or horsemen yet. I think we should go for literature and try to trade for the first and second tier techs.

We have no idea how much AI-AI contact there has been early this game. If there are only 1-2 civs per island, then the tech pace on regent is going to be pathetic. It would not completely surprise me to find that we have to teach several civs map making, then wait at least 10-15 turns for them to build their first galley and sail over to us – their first galley might not even head in our direction.

We have 2 clear possibilities – taking the war right to the AI or waiting for them to start to settle our island.

If we are going to wait, we can use the time between our contact and their arrival to prepare the welcoming committee – building it earlier just wastes money. Under this approach, we may want to “waste” a few turns just building wealth. If we have say 30 total turns to map making – the last 5 of them will be used at 10 spt building a granary as a prebuild for a harbor. Disbanding 4 spearmen will mean we get the harbor in 1 turn. 4 spearmen take 8 turns to build. We will build 3 workers in 1 turn each. We still have 14 turns of building. If we get another 4 spearmen to disband so we get our first galley in 1 turn, we still have 6 extra turns. If we are going to produce wealth, we should do it first so we are not spending the money on military upkeep for any longer than necessary.

If we are going to attack instead of wait, then we I think we should build barracks and warriors with our extra turns and upgrade them to swordsmen as soon as we trade for iron working and connect the iron that we better have. I would prefer this approach – sitting and waiting would take too long for me. A handful of cities every 20 years doesn’t make a large empire all that fast. Of course, we will be in terrible shape if we don’t have iron, and we will have to be very careful with money using this approach, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Stagnate can take his turn when ready. No rush here.

Good analysis chamnix. We will need a few more spears for barb protection/hunting for our road crews and long term MP. I think that will account for the remaining 6 turns of builds.
Maybe our build order for 25+ turns should be (not being sure when pop hits size 6 again):
Worker - 3x Spear - Worker - 5x Spear - Worker - 3x Spear - Granary pre-build

Note that we will hit size six during the Granary pre-build, so we will need to be very careful to not accidentally build the granary. Proper use of the 'Big Picture' could let us switch over to harbor and build it via disbands on the same turn we research MM.

Stagnate can take his turn when ready. No rush here.

Current rotation is therefore:

Up: stagnate - will play Tuesday evening.
On Deck: M60
TimBentley - skip Wed through Sunday
Chamnix
Just played: MOTH

We will need a few more spears for barb protection/hunting for our road crews and long term MP. I think that will account for the remaining 6 turns of builds.


Of course you are right. I'm not used to leaving land empty for barbs. At least regent barbs die easily.

Anyone know how to calculate exactly how many turns it will take us to research map making so we can determine if we should start spears right away? Our income should be constant so if anyone knows how many beakers things take it should be definitely determinable.

@MOTH - I take it from your projected build that you are now in favor of bringing the AI to our continent first instead of conquering theirs right away. Will that be our approach then? If we are going to their continents we will want some warriors (future swordsmen) instead of spears so we should make a decision before we build too much.

I think the warriors are just too expensive in terms of upkeep to build now. At least the spears disband for 5 shields out of 20 build. The warriors only disband for 2 - they are just not worth keeping around as we will quickly run out of cash. We can't carry a big military for long until we can get more cities.

Barb farming could be a huge part of our economy...

It would not completely surprise me to find that we have to teach several civs map making, then wait at least 10-15 turns for them to build their first galley and sail over to us – their first galley might not even head in our direction.

You say you don't know map-making? Here, it's yours. Don't know how to get to CATHERINE ESTATES? Here's our world map with crossing points marked. So hop in your family galley and come over today! Our friendly horsemen provide 24 hour-a-day barbarian protection, and if you act right now, we're offering FREE INFRASTRUCTURE. That's right, friend, a direct road to our capital. We may even throw in a mine. We're sure as soon as you see the pristine wilderness, you'll fall in love with the place and never leave. Furs await your arrival, and our delicious local caribou make a great treat. But you must ACT NOW!

Note: Not valid in Alaska or Hawaii. Must be a settler in order to take advantage of this offer. Management of CATHERINE ESTATES reserves the right to withdraw this offer at any time. ;)

Anyone know how to calculate exactly how many turns it will take us to research map making so we can determine if we should start spears right away? Our income should be constant so if anyone knows how many beakers things take it should be definitely determinable.
Let's see, MOTH suggested staying at size 5, that should be about 14gpt. So it would take 21 turns to get the 288 beakers needed for map making.

The plan of barb farming while we wait for map making and waiting for cities to capture sounds good, dependent on the unknown future.

I understand we will "encourage" the AI to settle our continent, but I still think it will take too long - from the time we find someone and teach them map making (assuming they don't have it):

1. They have to build a galley.
2. They have to decide to come to our continent. Based on what we already see, the islands may not be that far apart - even with our map as a guide, the AI may already know about other islands they choose to settle first.
3. They have to travel to their chosen landing point on our island. How does the AI handle differential naval movement? Will they just crawl along our coast the entire time?
4. They have to disembark and settle.
5. We have to wait until the city reaches pop 2.

All of that before we get even our second city. I think with 4-6 swords, we can take the first non-capital city (probably defended with 2 spears) we find instead. The risk of the more aggressive plan is that we may not have iron and then we wasted time and money with warriors, but I think it is a risk worth taking to save 20-25 turns before we get a second city. We can still invite people to our little paradise and hit them with horsemen when they arrive, but I would like to see an attacking crew first so we can gain ground while we wait.

After doing a test debug game, I tend to agree with Chamnix. In that game (a continents map that I tried to make similar to this game), nobody researched map making until 1250 BC (turn 70). Somebody did research literature about turn 60, which surprised me. As far as I can tell, that civ didn't trade for anything more than the first-level techs and maybe mysticism and iron working. It was also interesting to see the two AIs with one city and two settlers sitting there.

So what's the point of this? It will take a while for the AI to settle our continent. We might be able to conquer cities with less than two spears. Of course the meeting of the first AI would enlighten us more on the situation.

All that's been said to this point may certainly be true. If we want to go out and try to capture a place closer to the AI home, we can certainly do that. One thing to keep in mind, though, is that any captured town is going to be a flip risk being much closer to an AI capital.

I have added the venerable Bede to your roster

:salute: reporting for duty.

Hi, y'all. Let me catch up and you 'll be hearing from me.

Looking forward to playing with this distinguished bunch.

Welcome Bede. Look forward to your advice and play skills.

stagnate is next up on the rotation but can't play until this evening. If you can catch up and get a set of turns in today then go ahead, if not then we'll slot you in after stagnate.

The next 30 turns are mostly sitting around barb hunting while we wait for MM.

Thanks. MOTH.

Will fit in a set today and post no later than 5PM Cape Cod time.

Looks like we have a bunch o' Bay Staters on this team :hmm:

And our location has its own version of Cape Cod, although a but more mountainous and cold. It takes forever to get out to the end too, just like summer Fridays down route 3 to the bridges (and the famous "Cape Cod Canal Tunnel").

1750BC
Alles in ordnung but for Hun hanging out on our borders. No threat to anyone yet though.

Looking over the “Strategy Guide” provided in the above posts have nothing new to offer. Thanks, team. Now let’s see if the old monk can execute.

Colussus completes right on time and Moscow starts another worker.

Worker completes, start worker, then another, then a third, start spear.

In 1575BC learn writing and start max research on Map Making (29 turns).

In 1550 build spear and start around the horn for a little barb hunt.

In 1500BC discover the Hun camp.

Workers are mining the deforested grassland along the river. Spears are heading up the coast to the Cape.

Here you go stagnate:

Team MOTH 1500BC (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_BC1500_01.SAV)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5_Team_MOTH1500BC.jpg

stagnate, did you get this?

Current rotation is therefore:

Up: stagnate - will play Tuesday evening.
On Deck: M60
TimBentley - skip Wed through Sunday
Chamnix
MOTH
Just played: Bede

Been sick and yesterday was hectic, no chance. Will play it today.

Preturn check: MM for a couple extra gold, since we have more shields than needed for a three turn Spear build.

Turn 1 (1475 BC): Workers finish mine. Two move to road east, two road north. 1 mining tundra. spear move to cover.

Turn 2 (1450 BC): Workers...

Turn 3 (1425 BC): Workers. Vet spear takes out barb hut. Speark built, start spear. MM so we get shields on growth.

Turn 4 (1400 BC): Workers. Get 10spt now, but stay at 9spt since we don't need to crank production (yet) and it cuts research from 18-15 turns.

Turn 5 (1375 BC): Workers.

Turn 6 (1350 BC): Spear -> Spear. Workers.

Turn 7 (1325 BC): Workers.

Turn 8 (1300 BC): Workers.
IBT Spear defeats barb.
Turn 9 (1275 BC): Workers.

Turn 10 (1250 BC): Workers. Spear -> Spear.

The vet spear and two others are out looking for promotions and gold. Get bab huts and move around. Once we build the next spear switch to granary prebuild for harbor. Keep a spear or two handy for disbanding to speed harbor when the time comes, maybe even three.

Workers are building roads to likely city spots, keep them protected.

Keep the spears roaming and don't let the barb camps spawn any troops. Hate to deal with a bunch of barbarian horses with only one city. And the 25g sure makes a nice addition to the treasury.

Do we want to build a granary to keep the growth rate up?

I learned in a couple of personal OBC games that population in the capitol is crucial, and could make the difference between victory and defeat.

I am thinking that the granary would be ok to build. Also wondering where the save might be.

It's on the submissions page

Um, right. I knew that. :crazyeye: Got it.

The save at 1000BC (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_BC1000_01.SAV)

1250BC (Turn 0) MM in 9, one conscript barb on a mountain.

IBT- Spot 2 more barbs, that make 3.

1225BC (Turn 1) Nothing.

IBT- Conscript barb redlines our reg spear in the mountain.

1200BC (Turn 2) Spear>granary, due in 7.

IBT- zip

1175BC (Turn 3) Clear a Goth encampment in the south for 25g.

IBT- move workers around.

1150BC (Turn 4) Moskva pops to 6, MM town so MM and granary in 5.

IBT- zip

1125BC (Turn 5) Kill BW in north with spear, lose a hp.

IBT- Barb galley lurking in the south. Another BW spotted north.

1100BC (Turn 6) Fort north spear to heal.

IBT- nothing.

1075BC (Turn 7) Granary in 2.

IBT- north barb advances

1050BC (Turn 8) spear moved to meet barb

IBT- MM comes in, what’s the big picture, over to F1, Moskva granary>harbor in 3. Barb horse shows up by South Road.

1025BC (Turn 9) Pull the spears into the South road to protect it and workers. Spear to barb camp. Disband spear in Moskva, so harbor in 1.

IBT- Barb horse redlines our reg spear, but dies. Moskva harbor> galley in 3.

1000BC (Turn 10) Fort our red spear. And done. Warrior code in 10 @ -5gpt w/189 in the bank. Firaxis score 89.

Post turn: Workers are a bit vulnerable to a barb if they should pop up along the roads, but other than that looking fine.

I'm sorry guys, but I have found a bug in the PTW version of the game. Please take a break for a while so that I can get it fixed. I hope I can sort it out quickly.

I really am very sorry for the inconvenience but it appears that I didn't spend enough time playtesting the PTW version since all the big changes were in 1.29f.

Looks good - I will wait for mad-bax to post a fixed save.

It looks like no beakers have been invested in Warrior Code yet. My only question is do we want to stick with that, or do we want to go for something that will be more difficult to trade for?

Rotation:
Up: Chamnix - will play after ok from M-B
MOTH
Bede
stagnate
Just Played: M60

TimBentley - skip Wed through Sunday - will go back into rotation when he's back.

Thoughts (I haven't looked at the save yet):
Tech: It looks like one turn of research was done on WC. I still say forget about it, as its most likely that an AI will have researched this. We are going to need all our money to buy techs if the AIs already have MM. If they don't have MM yet, then we should be able to trade this around to get just about all the techs and contacts. I think we should start a minimum run on Literature.

Builds: worker, galley, worker, 1 or 2 more galleys. The 1st worker will let us grow back to size 6 in 3 turns and the second should grow back to size 6 in 7 turns (14 turns from now). We will then be at size 6 with 7 workers. We would join in 6 of those 7 workers and be at size 12. This will get our unit support much more managable and if we work 8 coast we will still have 4 suprlus food and can build an occasional worker later on.

Wonders: It might be good to build the Lighthouse while we wait for the AI to settle our Island. The extra movement point would be very good to have.

By all means, next up should change research as desired. Since it was last turn to select a new tech, I just grabbed the default. Our unit support cost is creeping up, (around 10 gpt) so I'd watch how many units we plan to support.

Since this is Regent, we have lots of money and no trade partners yet suggest that we keep spending gpt for research at maximum.

That was the other lesson learned from an OBC game where contact was delayed by the terrain: keep the Bunsen burners flaring brightly to the extent you can until contact is made with at least two other nations, That strategy also served me well in an OCC victory on Emperor.

Concur that the Lighthouse is a good choice for a wonder, for if we fail, we have a solid pre-build for the Great Library.

Guys, your game has been fixed and you can continue to play.
Once again I apologise for the inconvenience.

The 1000 BC save has been fixed. Some teams have to replay from 1000 BC and some teams have to play up to 1000 BC before M-B can apply the fix.

Either way, we can proceed with Chamnix's round of turns.

Pre-Turn - Look around. Nothing visible has changed in the save, but I didn't expect it to. Change research to literature at 100% - 18 turns at -10gpt. We have 189 gold now, but we will hopefully disburse some barbarian camps.

Turn 1 (975) - Vet spear kills barb - 2/4.

Turn 2 (950) - Reg spear disburses Khazak encampment + 25 gold. Reg spear kills barb. MM Moskva to get +2 gold.

IBT - Moskva Galley --> Worker (on growth to 7).

Turn 3 (925) - Galley drops worker/spear pair in game forest to road their way back.

IBT - Moskva Worker --> Galley.

Turn 4 (900) - Nothing.

IBT - Barb horseman comes from NE furs - have to be very careful with workers.

Turn 5 (875) - Nothing.

Turn 6 (850) - MM Moskva for extra gold.

IBT - Moskva Galley --> Galley.

Turn 7 (825) - Reg spear disburses Alemanni camp +25 gold.

Turn 8 (800) - Reg spear loses cleanly to barb warrior in south. Worker in south is temporarily undefended - since south barbs were not horses, I will try to let him finish road he is working on before heading back to protection.

Turn 9 (775) - Reg spear defeats barb horseman 2/3. MM Moskva for extra gold.

IBT - Moskva Galley --> Spearman?

Turn 10 (750) - Nothing.

No contacts during my turns. We have 125 gold, literature in 6 at -13gpt.

I am sending the galleys to the islands we can already see first instead of suiciding them. Differential Naval Movement means it takes a couple turns just to get away from Moskva.

I set Moskva on spearman because we have 6 workers and 6 military units, and 2 of the units are MP so the workers guards are not great, and barbarians are getting more common. If we are going to build the "Great Lightbrary", we should probably start that now, and we can join a worker or two back to Moskva to get up to 15spt instead of building more military.

Firaxis = 94.


http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_BC0750_01.SAV

got it. will play soon

bump to a new page

Summary: We found 4 other countries and might be a turn away from finding more if we set out across the ocean. We are close to tech parity. We have Iron roaded but need a colony and we just need a colony to get horses as well. We are building The Great Lighthouse, but could change this to Library if we want. Workers can be joined to bump up our city size.

750(0) BC - switch to building a worker as I want 7 and then will rejoin when reaching size 7. Everything else looks good.
IBT - Worker->Spear

730(1) BC - zzz

710(2) BC - reg spear in SE defeats barb warrior with no damage. Galley in the North spots the very edge of a border! Next turn. Galley in the south sees a barb camp near the end of the road.

IBT - Moscow grows back to 6. Spear->Lighthouse. Next turn I will MM for food to get to size 7 and then rejoin workers.

690(3) BC - reg spear near moscow defeats a barb warrior. We find the Indians. They have a size 1 city connected by coast. They know the Egyptians, the Americans, and the Spanish and are up 5 techs (and down none). We are 3 turns from Literature which they don't have. I wait til next turn when I expect they will trade our contact around.

670(4) BC - MM Moscow for food. Cannot adjust science slider. India did not trade contacts. :( North galley finds America. :). America is up 6 techs and down MM. They have CoL that India does not have but won't give it up. Our WM will buy anything except IW or CoL or contacts. 2 turns to Lit.

650(5) BC - Lit due in 1 but can't adjust sliders. Galley in the SE sees a barb galley. Possible sea lane to south of small island. Someone traded our contact to Egypt who is up 5 techs and down MM. America won't offer dung for MM. Egypt will give us contact with Spain and a WM for MM - I take this. Spain is up 3 techs and down MM. I start shopping MM and WM. We get: IW, Masonry, The Wheel, WC, HBR, and Mysticism. Egypt and India are still up Math and America is up CoL and Math. We have a road on Iron and 2 roads next to horses.

IBT - Barb Galley attacks and loses with no damage. A second Barb Galley moves next to the galley. We get Lit and I start on Poly.

630(6) BC - Adjust slider to 10% science - Poly in 40 at -1 GPT. We kill barb galley with no damage. America will not give us CoL, so I hold onto Lit for now.

IBT - Barb warrior in the south walks onto a road.

610(7) BC - We take out Barb Warrior with a spear taking 1 damage. A second spear takes out the camp taking 1 damage. I've left 22 workers exposed for now. The SE galley sees a spot with a ocean adjacent to a coast - could this be a route across?

590(8) BC - MM Moscow as grows in 1. Galley in the SE moves 3 across the ocean and there is sea, so I keep going. If I survive 1 turn at sea there is coast in the distance :crossesfingers:

IBT - Barb Galley shows up in the North near Galley #3. Suicide galley Lives! :)

570(9) - Moscow MM for growth in 20. Lux slider to 10%. Galley#3 takes on Barb and wins with no damage. Spear in the North attacks barb camp and looses :( A worker is nearby. SE Galley makes it to a mountain.

550(turn 100) - SE Galley finds more mountains and sits on another coast-ocean possible route.

Status: I still haven't traded Lit to anyone. There are 2 workers near the horses that will be done IBT and should go south to help finish the road to the game; one of these could eventually build a horse colony, but we don't need it yet. There are 2 workers near Moscow that can be joined in next turn. Many of the other workers can head to Moscow once their current tasks are done to join in.

Firaxis 97; Jason 64

Rotation:
Up: Bede
stagnate
M60
Chamnix
Just Played: MOTH

TimBentley - skip Wed through Sunday - will go back into rotation at the top when he's back.

550 BC - turn 100 - save file (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_BC0550_01.SAV)

Since it's coast all the way down from Lahore to our area, it doesn't look like we'll have to wait too long before some huddled masses arrive at our shores. With 4 civs to the north, and us apparently in the middle, it will be interesting to see if the layout has about the same number of civs on landmasses to the west, east, and south.

Got it.

Since our goal is conquest, when do we want to start?

Start conquesting as soon you can. I've always been more of a builder, s I am interested in learning early conquest. America has a nice size 2 city near us...

Not much to report. Added a couple of workers to make use of all the shield producing terrain. Busted up some barbarian camps. Lost a spear to a barbarian horseman, that pillaged a mined tundra tile, killed him the next turn.

In 430 Japan completes the Oracle. Indians start the Pyramids. America started the Pyramids.

Here are some possible sea lanes east and west. And there may be another to the east of America.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5MOTH_Eastern_Explorer.jpg


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5MOTH_Western_Explorer.jpg

Lighthouse is due in eight. Here's the question: We still appear to hold a monopoly on Literature, we can probably get both the Lighthouse and the Library as judging from the towns I saw nobody will have our productive capacity....So, do we continue to explore while the Library builds.... or build some swordsmen, pull the galleys back while they build then start the conquest?

One issue we have at the moment is that our island seems devoid of any luxury but furs....

Team MOTH at 350BC (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_BC0350_01.SAV)

If we switch to the Library, it's due in 15. Then the Lighthouse would be another 20 without a single unit built. Then 12 turns for six swords. Sailing time to the first town depends of course on where we are going. But at 47 turns + sailing time, we're not fighting any time soon, unless we find a better formula. Do we really need the Lighthouse? We have AIs we can tackle without leaving coastal areas, and the Library will let us cut our research costs to zip, and that gives us more units to support. Given the amount of sea tiles spotted to date, at least it seems we can meet more civs through audacious treks through certain sea lanes.

We may be close to the big barbarian uprising for the change of ages, so we need to be able to defeat hoardes of barbarian horsemen at some point.

As for an eastern exploration route, the attachment shows a route that is Coast to Ocean so we can explore 3 tiles and still get back if need be. This could just be enough to reach another continent.

For wonders, lets get The Great Lighthouse and then build a barracks and Swords and then start the Great Library. The movement on sea tiles is huge with differential see movement.

I am back. And do you want me to get it now? If so, I've got it. (I won't start playing until tomorrow anyways.)

Take it away Tim.

Rotation:
Up: TimBentley
stagnate
M60
Chamnix
MOTH
Just Played: Bede

I also noticed that there are 3 goody huts that we could pop. With luck and tech trading right before popping, these could give us key techs to end the AA or maybe get a government tech.

What should our research goal be once we know all AA techs except the two governments, construction, and currency?

I think we need to get Republic as soon as we can. In the MA I think we want to get Engineering so we can plant forests on the tundra. We should be able to get over 20 spt with some forests.

In the MA I think we want to get Engineering so we can plant forests on the tundra. We should be able to get over 20 spt with some forests. :) Your wish is my command.

350(0)-zzz

330(1)- :( barbarian camp appeared by southeast worker

IBT-worker dies
barb goes next to spear

310(2)-meet Zulu
sell WM to Zulu for contact with Celts, 9g
sell WM to Celts for contact with China, Mongols, Aztecs, 3g
sell WM to China for contact with England, Vikings, Japan, France, 3g
sell WM to England for contact with Arabs, Iroquois, TM, 8g
buy WM from Japan for WM, 62g
sell WM to Aztecs for WM, math, code of laws, 21g
sell WM to Iroquois for WM, polytheism, 7g
sell WM to Arabia for WM, philosophy, 82g
sell WM to Vikings for WM, 106g
sell TM to France for WM, 1g
sell WM to Japan for 69g
sell TM to Mongols for WM, 1g
sell WM to Zulu for WM, 13g
MOTH's thoughts concur with mine, start min research on republic (100% would take 36 turns)
Japan, Iroquois, Arabia, England, Vikings have literature and are building Great Library)

IBT-spear defends against barb

290(3)-spear loses hitpoint killing barb, but promotes

IBT-galley defends against barb

270(4)-spear disperses barb camp

IBT-galley promotes defending against two barbs

250(5)-spear disperses barb camp

230(6)-spear dies attacking barb

210(7)-America knows construction, they want too much at the moment

IBT- :mad: barb kills three workers in northwest
Moskva Great Lighthouse->barracks
England starts Great Library, Pyramids

190(8)-zzz

170(9)-India knows currency
buy currency from India for poly, 126g
buy construction from America for currency, philo, poly, 196g
sell construction to India for WM, 157g
we learn engineering
I notice some rubble near Egypt and Spain
None of the other civs are scientific

IBT-I forgot about the barbarian uprising

150(10)-Arabia and France know monarchy
There's a redlined Egyptian warrior on the rubble (which formerly was an American city)

Notes:
Movska could switch to the Great Library (it should be remicromanaged in that case)
It might also build a worker to forest some tundra
The northern continent still doesn't know literature or our world map

Here is the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_BC0150_01.SAV).

Don't think it's worth going after GL this late, would get us 3-4 techs I would guess. I would say go for knights asap now, then up the tree to calvary.

Opinions before I take my turn?

Boats and infantry, then boats and knghts. Since it doesn't look like they are coming to us we go to them...

I agree we don't need the Great Library. I just mentioned it because of skimming earlier discussion. I believe some conquest could be started. Those barbarians are annoying.

I can’t check the save from where I am, but if we can get some gold together, I think we should consider building some embassies and getting some military alliances together. The more the AI fights each other now, the easier it will be for us later. We just have to make sure we make the sides even and keep some good trading partners.

I like Chamnix's idea of having the various AI fight each other.

I had another thought after reading some of Bede's OBC SG threads. If instead of waiting for the AI's newly founded cities to get some culture and/or grow so they don't auto-raze, If we attack (and capture) the capitols directly their Palace will jump to another city. By the time we reach this second city it will have some culture and we can capture that too. We should be able to get peace and another small city before waiting 20 turns and trying again. I don't know when we can have a small stack of Swords ready to attack Washington, but that's my idea.

I guess we need to defeat the barbarian hordes first, but that will give us a chance to promote units to Elite.

I like your plan MOTH.

:slapsforehead: why didn't I think of that before The Skillet sell into the fire....

Sorry guys, I thought I'd make it to the save, but did not. I'm out of town until Sunday or Monday, so go ahead and skip. Sorry it took me so long to tell ya.

Ok, M60 is up then.
Rotation:
M60 - up now
Chamnix
MOTH
Bede
TimBentley - Just played
stagnate - skipped

OK, I got it. One SG in front of this, but I may get turns in tonight.

The save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD0050_01.SAV)

Turn 0 (150BC) Many barb horses in the north. This is not good.

IBT- Barbs move about. Moskva rax>spear.

Turn 1 (130BC) move south spear closer to home.

IBT- Barbs still move about. Sink 2 raider barb galleys.

Turn 2 (110BC) Sell Lit to Lincoln for 202g.

IBT- 3 barb horses die, as we get an elite spear. Moskva spear>worker.

Turn 3 (90BC) Move elite spear back to Moskva, advance the vet and fortify for some combat experience. Keep the galleys moving.

IBT- Barb warrior dies against north spear. 2 barb horses in Moskva’s area.

Turn 4 (70BC) Elite spear escort moves to get worker to iron next turn.

IBT- This is really not good. Barb horses are everywhere, and destroy mine tile. Can’t protect our improvements around Moskva with the defense that’s been left. :(

Turn 5 (50BC) Get iron connected up, but production in the capital is falling off with destroyed improvements.

IBT- Lose another road tile. Barb horse dies attacking Moskva. Barb galley sinks against our galley. Palace expansion, Celts building Glib.

Turn 6 (30BC) Vet archer kills barb horse, promotes elite.

IBT- More Glib builds start. A barb horse redlines our spear.

Turn 7 (10BC) Sink barb galley.

IBT- Lose a galley to barbs, our iron road is cut.

Turn 8 (10AD) Move worker accidentally exposing him in the open.

IBT- worker gets killed. :mad:

Turn 9 (30AD) Kill 2 horses.

IBT- More barbs.

Turn 10 (50AD) Fort everything.

Post turn- We need a new strategy. Never had a game like this before where barbs are going to keep us pinned down until we get overrun by someone else. They’re just multiplying too fast, more than the one unit per two turns we're generating. Score 107.

It looks like I underestimated the barbs. I also missed the northwest and the southwest camp. The barbarian uprising produced 32 horsemen, I believe, so there's about 24 more to go.

By the way, I originally was asking about our military before I decided to look myself, so M60's post can be in context.

4 spears, 3 archers, and a warrior. 4 barb camps, count 8 horses which is what it was at the start.

Well, now I know what M-B means when he says "regionally intense barbarians" What's making it worse is the lack of an AI neighbor to absorb some of this.

I got it.


Our situation:

Moskva - size 8, -1fpt, 13spt, 19gpt (uncorrupted). Since we cannot get to 15spt anymore, we only need 10spt for building the available military, so I will rearrange tiles worked to get to +2fpt, 10spt, and 19gpt. Barbarians everywhere so military is the order of the day.

We have no workers anymore - I can try to squeeze at least one out sometime. Hopefully everyone is using something like CivAssist or checking each rival every turn to see if anyone has workers for sale. Buying workers would be ideal.


Our rivals:

Egpyt - 6 cities, down Philosophy, Code of Laws, Literature, Polytheism, Currency. 3g+0gpt. Iron and Horses. Embassy costs 50.

Spain - 6 cities, down Literature, Construction, Polytheism, Currency. 6g+0gpt. Iron and Horses. Embassy costs 55.

America - 9 cities, down Engineering. 52g+0gpt. Iron and Horses. Embassy costs 97.

India - 8 cities, down Literature, Engineering. 22g+0gpt. Iron and Horses. Embassy costs 55.

Arabia - 16 cities, up Republic, Monarchy, down Engineering. 95g+0gpt. Will give us Republic, Monarchy and 95g for Engineering. Iron and Horses. Embassy costs 60.

France - 10 cities, up Monarchy, down Currency, Construction. 17g+0gpt. Iron and Horses. Embassy costs 68.

Iroquois - 10 cities, up Republic, down Currency, Construction. 0g+0gpt. Iron and Horses. Will give us Republic for Currency, Construction + World Map. Embassy costs 119.

Japan - 8 cities, up Republic, Monarchy, down Engineering. 0g+0gpt. Iron and Horses. Will give us Republic and Monarchy for Engineering. Embassy costs 109.

Aztecs - 4 cities, down Engineering. 6g+0gpt. Iron and Horses. Embassy costs 75.

Celts - 5 cities, down Engineering. 34g+0gpt. No Iron, no Horses. Embassy costs 66.

England - 8 cities, down Engineering. 1g+1gpt. Iron and Horses. Embassy costs 56.

Mongols - 3 cities, down Literature, Polytheism, Currency, Construction. 10g+0gpt. Iron, no Horses. Embassy costs 101.

Zulu - 9 cities, up Monarchy, Republic, down Engineering. 36g+0gpt. Iron and Horses. Will give us Republic, Monarchy and 36g for Engineering. Embassy costs 57.

China - 5 cities, down Currency, Construction. 0g+0gpt. Horses and Iron. Embassy costs 49.

Scandanavia - 7 cities, down Engineering. 52g+0gpt. Iron, no horses. Embassy costs 44.


The plan:

If we want Republic, I think we should get it from the Iroquois - we are still 22 turns away, and there is no need to give anyone Engineering just yet. In Republic, our current military will cost 14 instead of 6. It looks like we only gain +4gpt for getting out of Despotism although we will gain an additional +2fpt so there is the possibilty of more gold as our city grows, but we also lose our MP happiness so will have to bump up luxuries. Think we can afford anarchy right now with all the barbs? If we trade for Republic, we cannot reroll if we get a long anarchy, right? It doesn't sound to me as if Republic is viable right now.

We are in no position to attack anyone anytime soon with our barbarian problems, but I see no reason not to start a phoney war or two. I would like to declare on America, and join in India with Literature and gold (if necessary).

I really want to slow down Arabia with their 16 cities - we can declare on them and join France with Construction and Currency, but there is some danger that Arabia will be too strong for France and gain too much ground. If we don't get Repubic from the Iroquois, we could join them for Currency and Construction and hope France lets them through.

We could also declare on Scandanavia and join China with Currency and Construction - Scandanavia has more cities, but China is more advanced and China is strong compared to us while Scandanavia is only average.

I won't play until tonight, so people can comment.

My thoughts are that since we are the only Scientific civ, we should not trade away Engineering until another Civ has a MA tech.

As for phoney wars, we need to keep Arabia from becoming a run-away civ. Declare on them and bring in the 4 closest civs in on alliances. Its ok with us if the AIs destroy each other.

As for the Barb situation, we definitely need to get some beeter offensive units than archers. Lets try to get the iron hooked back up so we can build a few Swords and maybe some Horsemen. I would say we will always want to keep 2 Horsemen in training against barbs once we clear up the problem.

I agree with not giving up engineering – when I started seeing what we could get for engineering, I did not realize we could get republic without using engineering.

The problem with Arabia is they are on the end of the long land mass – France is the only one adjacent to them. Having AI’s destroy each other is generally good, but as you mentioned, we don’t want Arabia to start running away from the others so if we get them into a war, we want to make sure they have opponents who won’t be easy for them. We can certainly MA France. We can MA Iroquois if we do not care about getting Republic yet (of course, it would be nice to get Republic even if we are not planning to revolt yet just so we can start researching Feudalism). After that comes Japan, and we don’t have anything to offer them except gold (or engineering). I don’t know if it we really want to pay them much to “fight” someone two civs away.

On the other side of Arabia, we have India who doesn’t even know Arabia exists yet. I did not see what I could get for trading contacts. I don’t remember - is there an easy cross point between Arabia and India? Is there is, then we might as well see if we can get Republic/Monarchy for contacts, and clean out everyone’s gold for contacts. If not, then there is no point in bringing India in against Arabia.

Now that I am thinking of the possibility of getting Monarchy for contacts, maybe we should consider forgetting about researching Republic and switch to Feudalism right away despite the wasted beakers. It is likely to be a very long time before Republic is good for us – the additional military support will be way more than the extra income so that even Despotism may be better than Republic. I think we are better off trading for Monarchy and revolting to that ASAP.

Once we have a worker, we should rehook iron as soon as we are sure we can defend the connection – if we can’t defend it, then we are better off re-improving the tiles near Moskva we can defend. I agree with your horse strategy long term, but it will be a while before we can defend that connection and spare a worker for another colony.

Ah, Contacts, I hadn't realized we had not traded contacts yet. IIRC, there is an easy crossing point in the west, and there might be one between India and Arabia. I think now would be the time to cash in on the contacts. We should be able to get both Republic and Monarchy for contacts as well as most of the gold in the world as well as some MAs.

Knowing the location of Arabia, lets not get France in on the fight right now, but instead sign 4 other nation on their continent + India into MA against Arabia. This will keep them at war for a long-long time as the WW won't get to them much against the furthest nations and the war will generally happen in France's territory. If Arabia does happen to capture a city it will be far enough away that one of the other nations will recapture it easily.

Trading contacts and fomenting WW1 can only work to our advantage while we clear up the barbarian problem, slows everybody else down and buys some breathing space, weakens the target civs in our favor and hsould reditribute resources a little, hopefully to our advantage...

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD0250_01.SAV

Pre-Turn - MM Moskva to get 10spt, +2fpt.

India will not be able to cross to Arabia, so an MA there is out, but I think we will see what we can get for contacts...

Build embassy in France -

Paris has iron, horses, and wines, 9spt, pyramids in 13. They have already built heroic epic but no other buildings. 2 regular spears in garrison. 70% science spending, 0% lux. France is already at war with Arabia! They have RoP with Iroquois, Aztecs, Scandanavia, and Zululand.

Build embassy in India -

Salamanca has iron, no luxuries, 9spt, pyramids in 13. Heroic Epic but no other buildings. 3 regular spears. 80% science, 0%lux. They have an RoP with America.

Build embassy in China -

Beijing has iron, horses, and silks, 10spt, pyramids in 11. Heroic Epic but no other buildings. 2 regular spears. 40% science, 0% lux. No wars/RoPs.

Build embassy in Zululand -

Zimbabwe has horses and no luxuries, 4spt - not remotely close to completing pyramids and in anarchy now. No buildings. 2 regular impi. 100% science. RoPs with Arabia, Aztecs, and France.

Build embassy in Iroquois -

Salamanca has iron and wines, 7spt - not close to completing pyramids and in anarchy. No buildings. 3 regular spearmen. 70% science. RoPs with Aztecs, Arabia, France, and Scandanavia.

Offer France to ally with them against the Arabs and throw in Currency for Monarchy and 1g - done.

Declare on America. India joins us for Literature and Monarchy, and they even throw in their 22g and a world map.

We declare on Scandanavia. China joins us for Construction.

I meant to declare on England and get the Zulu to join, but we don't have anything to offer Zulu, so I build embassy in England.

London has horses, no lux, 7spt, Great Library in 46. 3 regular spearmen. 80% science. RoP with the Aztecs.

Declare on Zulu. England joins us for Monarchy and our world map. Our World Map made it go from doubt it to acceptable - I think I will offer our world map to all of the eastern/southern continent again.

We get 6g from Aztecs, 16g from France, 34g from Celts, and 10 from the Mongols.

Move elite spear back to Moskva, vet spear and vet archer take his place.

Revolt to Monarchy - draw 3 turns. Rearrange Moskva again to prevent riot.

Finally press enter.

Fortified vet spearman on our mountain iron colony drops 2 hp before beating a barb.

The people love all the wars we started so they add to our palace.

Turn 1 (70) - Vet archer cleanly defeats barb horse. Vet archer cleanly defeats barb horse.

IBT - 5 barbs die - we get 1 archer and 1 spearman to elite. The Chinese and Indians are building the Great Library.

Turn 2 (90) - Try to move elites back toward Moskva - I will see if I can locate a winning spot for our conscipt warrior. Oops - didn't notice the galleys were fortified - start moving the damaged one back toward Moskva for repairs. The healthy one moves back as well to pick up someone to pop those huts.

IBT - another barb dies. We become a Monarchy. The French are building the Hanging Gardens.

Turn 3 (110) - Rearrange Moskva again. Get 10spt, +4fpt, 25gpt (1 lost to corruption). The immediate Moskva area looks secure, so I will start pushing out workers. It will cost us some gold, but we can rejoin them later, and we desperately need them now. Vet archer kills another barb, 3/4. Elite archer kills barb cleanly - we are running out of vets. Change research to Feudalism at min (max would be 35 turns).

IBT - 2 more barbs die. Moskva Worker --> Worker. Our palce gets another addition. Moskva expands. Zulu start the Great Library.

Turn 4 (130) - Elite spear boards galley to go goody hut popping. Worker moves to bonus grassland.

IBT - 2 more barbs die - another spearman becomes elite. Moskva worker --> warrior (future swordsman). Iroquois start Hanging Gardens.

Turn 5 (150) - Worker irrigates. Other worker moves to reconnect iron. Regular spear disburses a barb camp.

IBT - Aztecs declared war on the French - doesn't look like a single city has been captured or destroyed in any of our little wars. Moskva warrior -->warrior.

Turn 6 (170) - India has founded Hyderabad on our continent, but they picked a poor location - they did not go for any grassland.

IBT - Moskva Warrior-->Warrior. China is building the Great Library.

Turn 7 (190) - Nothing.

IBT - Moskva Warrior-->Warrior.

Turn 8 (210) - Hyderabad is size 2 already. I obviously missed when it was first built. We have 12 turns remaining in our alliance with India against America - it would not be good to break that deal - we can wait patiently until it's over before helping ourselves... Elite spear kills another barb.

IBT - Another 2 barbs impale themselves on our spears. Moskva warrior-->worker. Iron is reconnected. English are building Hanging Gardens. Spanish are building Great Library. Spanish complete the Pyramids in Madrid, and the great cascade begins.

Turn 9 (230) - Warrior disburese barb camp. Archer kills barb. Upgrade 4 veteran warriors to swords. Spearman kills barb.

IBT - Scandanavia and China agreed to peace. France and Arabia agreed to peace. Moskva worker-->Galley (can be changed). Aztecs complete Great Library in Tenochtitlan. Arabs complete the Great Wall in Najran. French complete the Hanging Gardens in Paris. Cascade broken?

Turn 10 (250) - Nothing.

Our situation looks OK. The barbs are still around, but they are under control somewhat. I did not move the worker in Moskva yet - not sure where he is best suited. We have a worker ready to set up a horse colony. The Indians have finally come to our island, but we should wait until our MA with them against America expires before attacking. The injured galley is heading home (I sent him the wrong way at first thinking there might be a shortcut). The uninjured galley with the spearman is looking for goody huts that the Spanish haven't found yet. The two continents still don't know each other, and I do not think the northern/western continent has seen our world map at all. The wars I started are fizzling out instead of snowballing like I had hoped, but they shouldn't be too hard to restart now that the other civs have some enemies.

Moskva should be permitted to grow again so our income increases and so we get back to 15spt. Consider a granary?

got it. Iwill try and play before wifey wakes up (I,m up with the baby typing with one hand).

There's a nice big granary in Madrid :evil:

I will build some workers to connect and improve the indian town and join back in later.

Didn't get much done yet but we have a new city - St Petersburg! Here is the start of my turn log:

preflight - there is a crossing point between Arabia and Seattle - that differential naval movement can get across a coast-sea-ocena-sea-coast straight. China already has a city on the far south of the Northern continent (possibly a barb sink). We should trade contacts soon. Moscow looks good at +5fpt and 10 spt we can build a unit in 3 and then a worker for a few turns. I trade maps for most of the gold in the world (except for those countries we are at war with).

IBT - There is another crossing point as I just saw a Japanese Galley cross.

Turn 1 - Pop a goody Hut and get a size 3 city :) !!!! that is already starving. I rush a worker, but I think it will still starve.

IBT - Spain drops a settler pair. Scandinavia and France have a MA against Aztecs. Our new city is attacked by 2 barbs and our spear is 3/5. Our galley is attacked by 2 barbs and is promoted to elite at 4/5. Worker builds and start a harbor in St Pete.

preflight - there is a crossing point between Arabia and Seattle - that differential naval movement can get across a coast-sea-ocena-sea-coast straight. China already has a city on the far south of the Northern continent (possibly a barb sink). We should trade contacts soon. Moscow looks good at +5fpt and 10 spt we can build a unit in 3 and then a worker for a few turns. I trade maps for most of the gold in the world (except for those countries we are at war with).

IBT - There is another crossing point as I just saw a Japanese Galley cross.

260 (1) - Pop a goody Hut and get a size 3 city !!!! that is already starving. I rush a worker, but I think it will still starve.

IBT - Spain drops a settler pair. Scandinavia and France have a MA against Aztecs. Our new city is attacked by 2 barbs and our spear is 3/5. Our galley is attacked by 2 barbs and is promoted to elite at 4/5. Worker builds and start a harbor in St Pete.

270 (2) - Build a horse Colony. Start shopping WMs again and I notice that the Celts have both Wine and Wools available. There are still 8 turns left on the MAs and the way the AIs are moving I bet they will be trading contacts soon. We will be happy for 20 turns anyway :) :). I sell the contacts with the nations we are at war with first. Celts give us everything they have contact with the Americans. After checking the MAs, I get peace with the Scandinavians for 2 contacts for what they've got and with Arabia for 3 contacts what they've got. At the end of trading we have all the gold in the world except for Zulu and America's and we don't have Republic.

IBT - Barb horse attacks St Pete. Moscow Galley-Worker.

280 (3) - Soword kills a Barb Base for 25 G. I shop some more contacts around but it doesn't net us much. Elite Spear kills a barb camp for 25G. I miss move a spear which puts the Iron colony at slight risk so I move more units.

IBT - Barb warrior moves away from Iron. Moscow Worker>Horse

290 (4) - Kill barb warrior.

300 (5) - Buy a Spear in St Pete so the other can explore.

IBT - Arabia demands Engineering - We are at war again. An American Settler Pair (archer defense) in the north founds Detroit near Hyderbad on better land (they use our roads). A barb galley attacks one of ours and loses. St. Pete - Spear-Harbor.

310 (6) - Move units.

IBT - Moscow Horse-Worker

320 (7) - zzz

IBT - Barb horse loses to Spear near St Pete. Moscow Worker-Horse

330 (8) - Sword kills a barb camp. Sword kills a barb warrior. No Promotions.

340 (9) - zzz

IBT - Barb horse attacks near St Pete. Detroit grows to size 2.

350 (10) - Move a couple units adjacent to Detroit and 2 more Archers close in. Trade WMs again to get updated Barb Camp locations.

Analysis: England has a 1 tile city. We will need to get this in a peace treaty so England should be one of the next countries we declare a phoney war against and we will keep it up until they agree to cede Liverpool to us. The Galley in the South with the Horse is heading to pop the goodie hut on the mountain island. The other Galleys are heading home. The Spear near Moscow is going to be the second MP. I've been alternating Horse and Workers in Moscow. We have 4 workers now, so after a couple more cycles we can join them all in and be up near size 12. I'm planting forests in the Tundra for best production.

We should be able to capture Detroit from the Americans before we go to peace and then send the stack to Hyderabad. The worker nearby will be able to build a road quickly into Hyderabad.

The worker in St Pete should try and road a mountain towards the West next to help move units.

We can rush a harbor in St Pete and that will let us grow.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD0350_01.SAV

I didn't note the Jason or Firaxis scores.

Rotation:
Bede - up now
TimBentley
stagnate
M60
Chamnix
MOTH - Just played

Got it. Play tomorrow.

Russia in 450AD (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD0450_01.SAV)

Cancel the English and Indian alliances, then hire the Mongols to fight the Zulu.

The American archer at Detroit proves amazingly durable but in 370 the town is ours.

WooHoo [dance] our first town!!

The Aztecs want to trade their map for ours and Engineering, no, nyet, non, what part of "no" don't you understand? Here's a map of our tundra, now go away.

In 390 pillage two more barb camps on the home island.

In 400 pillage another babarian camp and the Aztecs declare on the English.

In 410 bust the barbarain camp next to Petersburg. The Mongol comes calling to demand Engineering and 45g, he has got to be kidding, and he is. He goes back to fighting the Zulu.

In 420 start the move on the Indians and the Arabs land an archer at Detroit.

The garrison sword at Detroit removes the threat in 430 and the Americans build New Orleans on the northern peninsula.

Move a spear to block any Americans from New Orleans and add a worker back to Moscow for 15spt. Move workers to Detroit for a little lumberjacking.

In 440 Gandhi comes looking for our World Map and engineering in exchange for hs world map. Tell him to put his parchment where the sun don't shine. Brennus wants to trade Republic for Engineering, nope, not yet, don't need no Duma.

In 450 a worker arrives at Detroit to start watering the cows and the sword in the east empties yet another barb camp.

The Celts and Japan now have Feudalism. We can get Togu's treasury, maps, Feudalism and Republic for Engineering. I will leave it for the next better player. We could probably shop Engineering and or Feudalism for the rest of the gold in the world if we wanted to and a little more war, though the other nations seem to be doing fine without our help.

There is a tidy stack of troops standing on the hill that blocks India from the main body of the island. I am sending a galley loaded with a horsemen and a sword to the sea between St Pete and the homeland and two more galleys are on the way to Hyderabad. Once we declare on Gandhi and take Hyderabad I think loading up a couple of ships and heading straight for India is a good idea.

This is a very complex diplomatic game. Very different from what I had expected. We will need outposts, friends and enemies on every continent by the end of the MA. And lots and lots of Cossacks.....

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/TeamMOTH450AD.jpg

Got it. I should play this afternoon.

I'm currently playing, and I noticed a couple of places we might want to station some troops some time.

450(0)-sell engineering to Japan for feudalism, republic, WM, 2gpt, 38g
MM Moskva for MDI production
monotheism is less likely to be researched by AI, so set research there

IBT-France, Aztecs sign peace
Japan, Celts start Sun Tzu's

460(1)-zzz

IBT-Moskva MDI->market
Iroquois start Sun Tzu's
lose wool, wines

470(2)-set lux to 10%

IBT-Arabs start Sun Tzu's

480(3)-boats getting ready for an eventual attack on India

IBT-Detroit library->barracks
India starts Sun Tzu's

490(4)-spear takes out a barb camp
Hyderabad is now size 2; declare war and move troops into position, horseman retreats leaving spear 2/3

500(5)-archer captures Hyderabad, settler
France has monotheism but wants engineering, feudalism, 300+ gold for it

510(6)-spear takes out a barb camp
New Orleans grew
sword takes out a barb camp

IBT-Indian MDI takes out sword
Vikings, India start Sun Tzu's

520(7)-horse, sword die attacking Lahore
MDI captures New Orleans

IBT-Indian MDI takes out horse

530(8)-buy monotheism from England for engineering, 36g
start research on chivalry
get maps from goody hut
spear dies attacking barb

IBT-Spanish galley sinks (disbanded)
Moskva market->MDI
America, England start Sun Tzu's

540(9)-zzz

IBT-Aztecs, England sign peace

550(10)-units in place to attack Jaipur (should have done this first)

Notes: Pillaging India's iron might be a good idea

Here is the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD0550_01.SAV).

Off the rock and rolling....:bounce:

Stagnate, if your back you should post a got it, otherwise we are coming up to auto-skip time and M60 will be up.

Rotation:
stagnate - up now
M60
Chamnix
MOTH
Bede
TimBentley - Just played

Ok, its been 48 hours since Tim's post, so lets autoskip stagnate and proceed with M60.

I haven't stated it earlier, but I think we should do 24 hours for an "I got it" and 48 hours from there to post the save and turn log.

Rotation:
M60 - up now
Chamnix
MOTH
Bede
TimBentley - Just played
stagnate - skipped

Got it. Will play tomorrow.

The save at 650AD (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD0650_01.SAV)

Preflight: Barb warrior next to Moskva’s fur tile, and no units in the city. Hurry MI for 104 gold.

IBT- Moskva MI>MI. Detroit rax>pike. English building Sun Tzu.

560 (1) MI kills barb warrior. MI kills reg spear, losing 1hp. Lose sword, horse and elite archer against reg spear at Jaipur that is now elite. :( Sink reg American galley.

IBT- Hiawatha wants furs. No. He declares on us.

570 (2) Vet MI kills wounded elite spear at Jaipur, and we have the city. :)

IBT- Lincoln wants peace, but won’t give 22 gold, so we’ll stay at war. India kills its worker at Jaipur. Resistance ends there.

580 (3) Marcomanni encampment disbursed by MI for 25g, vet sword kills BW on the mainland.

IBT- zzz

590 (4) nothing

IBT- BH impales himself on elite spear in mountain. Moskva MI> horse.

600 (5) For peace, Lincoln will only accept our unconditional surrender. We counter-offer that he fork over 40g and agrees. Done.

IBT- BW kills a worker of ours. French building Sun’s. Detroit pike>horse.

610 (6) Spear comes across barb camp.

IBT- nothing

620 (7) Spear kills BW at camp, horse showing. Workers finish mine at Hyderabad and start planting trees. Build embassy in Kyoto. Pop 10, 22 spt. 2 pikes and a MI defending. Iron and horse resources. HE, Oracle, cathedral, colosseum, library, market, temple, rax. 4 Lux. Can build MI every 2.

IBT- Zulu bring the Aztecs against us. Moskva horse>horse.

630 (8) Vet MI kill BW. And another one by St Pete, and a Bulgar encampment yields 25 gold.

IBT- nothing

640 (9) Move workers to start improving Detroit. Upgrade sword in Moskva.

IBT- China wants to trade WM provided we turn over monarchy as well. I think not. Japan demands 59g and territory map. I say no, he declares. Detroit horse>horse.

650 (10) All 6 civs who we are at war with are insulted by the notion we would make peace straight up. Horse finds barb warrior and kills it, then finds camp south of Detroit. Swapping pike and spear between Detroit and New Orleans to upgrade elite spear if desired. Score 156. And done.

No sign of any bad guys near our shores at the moment. Chivalry in 28, but we could do science @ 100 to deliver it in 14 if needed. Otherwise, our horses will make fine knights some day. We really need more units if we’re going to beat on these guys. A bad run with the RNG at Jaipur ended our Indian offensive quickly. We have 876g in the bank if we need some alliances.

Got it. Will play tonight.

We are at war with Aztecs, Arabia, Iroquois, Japan, Zulu, India.

I hate F4 with more than 8 civs - it looks like the only current wars are:

Celts v. Arabia
Mongols v. Zulu
England v. Zulu

Did I miss any?

Looks like the game plan will be to build units and prepare the assault force for the next better player - I doubt we will have the units to do any serious attacking in the next 10 turns.

Any other comments before I play?

Back now (was back a few days but no time to post). Stick me back in the lineup at my regular position.

ciao

Ok - our cities seem cash rich but shield poor, so I think we are better off building horsemen and upgrading to knights than building knights directly. Therefore there is no rush for Chivalry, so I will continue minimum research.

I believe a strike force of 6 MDI and 2 pikemen (with a fourth galley) is enough to make another run at a city on a different continent. I hop to be able to get that together quickly. Since the horsemen will not be too effective against pikemen and they are faster, they should guard the homeland.

Built an embassy in Scandanavia for 61g - 11spt, Sun Tzu's in 44, 2 reg pikes and a reg spear, 4 luxuries (wines, dyes, silks, and furs), iron but no horses, barracks, colosseum, and Heroic Epic. They are at war with the Aztecs. I can't convince them to join any other wars even with Monotheism.

Contact Celts - we agree to an alliance versus the Arabs if they declare war on Iroquois - they will even throw in a territory map, 13g, and 1gpt.

Contact Mongols - cancel our current alliance against the Zulus then promise to renew it only if they declare war on all our current opponents and throw in a world map and 10g. We will not be agreeing to peace with anyone anytime soon.

MM Moskva - hire a scientist and turn off research - we will still grow in one and complete horseman in one and gpt increases.

MM Jaipur - our shield in the mountain was corrupt anyway, so we will work the coast.

Wake up Swordsman in Hyderabad to move him for upgrade.

Hit space.

Aztecs declared war on the English.
Moskva Horseman --> MDI.
Our palace expands.

Turn 1 (660) - Horse disburses barb encampment. MM New Orleans for extra gold. Fire scientist in Moskva to get back to 14spt - MDI in 3. Hire scientist in Jaipur since they will be unhappy without their swordsman.

IBT - New Orleans Library --> tell them they will be building a temple.

Turn 2 (670) - MM Detroit to get horseman in 1. Upgrade Sword. Vet Horse disburses a barb camp. Horse kills a barb horse 3/4.

IBT - Elite spear kills barb horse. Detroit Horseman --> MDI. Zulu building Sun Tzu's.

Turn 3 (680) - China wants 85g for a worker. Instead tell Mao to declare on the Zulu and give us his worker and all his gold for engineering. Hurry temple in New Orleans then tell the people that they are actually building a harbor. MM Moskva back to 12spt for final turn of MDI - gain some gold and food.

IBT - India lands archer and MDI next to Jaipur. Crap. Arabia and Celts sign peace. Moskva MDI --> pikeman.

Turn 4 (690) - Horse kills a barb warrior 3/4. Spear pops goody hut and gets a map - oh goody. Elite spear kill barb 4/5. Move some units toward Jaipur, but they can't get there on time. MM Moskva to 16spt.

IBT - Our MDI defeated the Indian archer, but fell to the MDI after redlining him. The Indians captured Jaipur. Zulu want us to give 120g for peace - no way. An Iroquois ship approaches Detroit.

Turn 5 (700) - Vet horse kills barb horse. Unload units next to Jaipur. Elite spear kills barb in encampment, but barb horse shows. Some more MM.

IBT - Aztecs will give us peace for 40g. No. Moskva Pikeman-->Pikeman.

Turn 6 (710) - Vet horse kills a barb horse. Vet horse kills a barb horse 2/4. Vet horse v. 2/5 MDI in Jaipur - horse wins 3/4. Jaipur is ours again, complete with resistor - start on harbor. Elite spear disburse barb camp 4/5.

IBT - India lands 2 MDI by Jaipur, but we have 3 defenders now (pike, MDI, and horse). Iroquois lands MDI and Mounted Warrior by Hyderabad. Detroit MDI -->MDI.

Turn 7 (720) - Vet MDI v. Reg Iroquois MDI - win 4/5 (promote). Vet MDI v. Reg Mounted Warrior - W 4/4. Opt to defend Jaipur with all 3 units rather than take a chance attacking MDIs in the mountains and losing the city next turn. Elite spear disburses barbs. More MM.

IBT - Jaipur holds. Pike wins vs 1 MDI 2/4, then our MDI wins 2/4. Moskva Pikeman-->Pikeman. Another Iroquois galley appears. Resistance in Jaipur has ended. New Orleans harbor -->catapult.

Turn 8 (730) - Nothing to report. My deal with the Mongols was a big mistake - I apologize for that one. It looks like they will be eliminated while our MAs are still active. The only other MA we have active is against the Zulu. Once the Mongols are gone (or we break our deal) the Indians will give us Chivalry or almost Invention for peace. Nobody wants peace straight up.

IBT - Spanish want to trade World Maps for Monotheism - no. Zulu and Mongols are at peace - they broke our deal! I was very lucky on that one - I will be more careful in the future. Celts and Aztecs sign Alliance against Scandanavia (Celts declare war). Spanish are building Sun Tzu's.

Turn 9 (740) - Now the Indians are not as generous - I guess they feared the Mongols. Hurry catapult in New Orleans then switch to galley before interturn. Vet horse kills barb horse. Vet horse disburses barb encampment.

IBT - Iroquois unload 2 mounted warriors by Hyperabad. Moskva Pikeman-->Pikeman. Arabia galley approaches Jaipur. Japanese archer approaches St. Petersburg.

Turn 10 (750) - Veteran MDI v. Vet Mounted Warrior - W 2/4. Elite MDI v. reg Mounted Warrior - W 4/5.

Somehow I don't feel like I am very good at this type of game. I left the galleys near Hyderabad and the MDI in Hyderabad unmoved in case a better player thinks we need them more in Jaipur (or can attack the Arabian galley while it is full). Fortunately, the Mongols broke our deal so I believe we can honorably make peace with anyone except the Zulu although most people will not give us good deals right now. We may want to make peace with Japan before hitting space - otherwise St. Petersburg is a coin toss.

I have been MM Moskva every other turn to switch between 14 and 16 shields to get a pike every 2. I have been switching between science at 10% or a scientist in Detroit or Hyderabad depending on the shield/food situation in those cities. We may not be that far from assembling a force to attack another continent, but we need fewer enemies before we do.

Any criticism of my play will not be taken personally and will be appreciated - I am playing to learn.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD0750_01.SAV

I guess I'm up and will play tonight.

Chamnix, you're play seems pretty good to me. You are managing the cities well and there haven't been any huge mistakes.

I haven't looked at the save, but I am likely to make peace with whoever we can when they will give us decent deals. And I will declare war on England as soon as I can get in position to snatch up a city. I want to force them to give us the 1 tile city so we don't have to wait for Marines to finish the game.

I hate F4 with more than 8 civs
I know how that problem can be solved. :evil:

England seems like a good place to get some good cities and a one-tile island. They don't have horses or iron hooked up.

I couldn't get to this last night and can't for a couple days. Bede wy don't you take it.

Sorry I missed your note, MOTH.

Got it, play tonight.

And now it's tomorrow.


The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD0850_01.SAV)


St Pete looks a better than even chance to hold against a single Japanese archer, and Toku won't offer anything for peace anyway.

And the city stands.

We are locked into war with the Zulu for 11 or until China makes a peace treaty...so that negotiation can wait. Arabia makes no meaningful offer so peace there is off the table. Same for the Iroquois.

Between 750 and 770 kill a few more barbarians on the home island and set up a shuttle service to Jaipur. By dropping troops on the neck at Jaipur the galleys are only exposed for one turn (unloaded). Once I have four galleys with full loads it is off to the Indian mainland.

In 770 I can buy Invention from Ragnar for furs and 310g. Done.

In 790 Arabs land a settling party next to our horse colony.

In 800 Arabs build Merw on the tundra snaring the horse colony and Balkh on our east coast.

In 800 Mongols and Arabia sign a peace treaty.

In 820 Aztecs sign China into their war with the Mongol.

In 830 launch the invasion of the Indian sub-continent.
And the landing force is attacked by Indian War Elephant which defeats a Mace.

And in 830 Aztecs sign a peace treaty with Mongolia.

In 840 after successfully establishing the beachhead in India at Lahore sign a peace treaty with Gandhi for Chivalry and his maps. Start research on Gunpowder at max.

In 850 cut the road from Lahore into India.

Lahore can make a nice jumping off point for an attack on America if we wish:

Ferry from Hyderabad to Jaipur Landing, transit to galleys at Jaipur, then across the straits to Lahore, then down the coast to land at Atlanta. In that way our ships are not exposed. If we position at Atlanta, declare on Abe, then ask Gandhi to join us against America, Gandhi just might use up his War Elephants attacking America. If we can finish off Abe's core then we can turn on Gandhi with Spain's help, then turn on Spain, and work our way across the continent that way.

I've been patientlly killingbarbs and waiting for the one of the Arab cities to grow. Once it does, take it, and see if Abu won't give up the other for peace.

America also has a galley nosing around.

St Pete has built a couple of MDI which might be useful as barb busters and Japanese hunters.

We need to get to cavalry and bigger boats post haste.

Got it. I'll play tonight.

850(0)-put laborer in Jaipur back to work, switch Detroit to MDI
make 77g trading WMs

IBT-England, Aztecs sign peace
St. Pete MDI->library
Aztecs start Sun Tzu's

860(1)-zzz

IBT-Moskva MDI->library

870(2)-disperse barbs

IBT-Indian settler pair wanders into view
China, Zulu sign peace
Hyderabad galley->galley
Detroit MDI->MDI

880(3)-Balkh has grown
disperse barbs

890(4)-5 civs know gunpowder
horse captures Balkh, which starts on harbor
Arabia still insulted at peace

IBT-India founds Chittagong SE of Moskva
Moskva library->MDI
people want to build forbidden palace
New Orleans galley->galley

900(5)-buy gunpowder from Celts for WM, 325g
can't get theology from Vikings
start research on chemistry

IBT-America starts Sistine Chapel

910(6)-zzz

IBT-Arabs drop off ansar warrior by Jaipur
Detroit MDI->MDI

920(7)-kill the ansar warrior

IBT-Iroquois drop off mounted warrior, MDI near Balkh
Egypt settler pair is near St. Pete
Moskva MDI->pike
China starts Sun Tzu's

930(8)-kill Iroquois invasion
sell WM around as cash is running low

IBT-Hyderabad galley->galley

940(9)-sell gunpowder to England for theology, WM, 10g
several people have education
lower science to 70%
disperse barbs
one of two MDIs victorious at Yokohama, leaving a redlined spear

IBT-Arabia declared war on France
Moskva pike->MDI
New Orleans galley->barracks

950(10)-Iroquois settled Gayagaahe in SE
MDI captures Yokohama, which starts on harbor

Notes: Moskva can build an MDI in three turns (14-14-12) (or a pikeman in two turns), building up food, and can get to 20spt using a food deficit
Aztecs would pay 40g for peace
I'm guessing you can capture Merw about 1000 AD
You might want to switch St. Pete to a military unit

Here is the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD0950_01.SAV).

Something I forgot to note: where shall we build the forbidden palace? Unfortunately I don't have time for a detailed analysis.

Current Rotation:
stagnate - up now
M60
Chamnix
MOTH
Bede
TimBentley - Just played

As for the forbidden palace, it will need to be hand built (since the changes on leader rushing.) The location of our palace is going to let a lot of cities near the FP to be at ring one. So, I think we should start hand-building it in America's territory once we can build a courthouse.

The other option would be a palace jump. I think we should hold off on a jump until we could jump it to the southern continent.

Got it will play this evening. Chip in on palace, I'll look for a good spot and work on courthouse which will still be changeable by the player after me.

Bleh. Playing this large map isn't working too well on my computer, I think I have to bow out. We got an extra player so this shouldn't be too bad (esp considering I only played one turn :-P)

Sorry guys.

ok. Does this mean we should remove you from the rotation?

Current Rotation:
M60 - up now
Chamnix
MOTH
Bede
TimBentley - Just played
stagnate - remove from rotation?

I'll grab it tonight. May not play until tomorrow.

Yeah, I'll be reading the posts, but remove me from the rotation.

The save at 1050 (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD1050_01.SAV)

Preturn- Barb camp south of St Pete, send e-spear towards it. C-warrior defending.

IBT- India and Mongols sign peace. Mongols and Japan sign peace. Detroit MI>MI. Arabs drop off Ansar warrior by Jaipur.

Turn 1 (960) Lose vet MI at Jaipur, redlining Ansar, v-horse kills it. Sink the Arab galley that dropped off the Ansar. Lose 2hp off galley. Sink Iro vet galley off Hyderabad, promote elite. Advance 5 MI and 2 cats off Lahore to observe Bombay.

IBT- Mongols and China sign peace. Japan brings Egypt against us. India brings about 3 pikes into Bombay.

Turn 2 (970AD) Back to Lahore. Disperse a Gepid camp for 25g.

IBT- Moskva MI>MI. Japan building Leo’s.

Turn 3 (980AD) Worker stuff, heal the spear that got the Gepid camp.

IBT- Scandanavia and Iro ally against Mongols. Iro and India start Bachs. Arab galley off the mainland. Expect company soon.

Turn 4 (990AD) Build horse colony.

IBT- Bunch of Indians come out of Bombay, headed east. Scandanavia and Celts make peace. Arabs, French, Japanese start Bachs.

Turn 5 (1000AD) Lose 3 galleys trying to sink the Arab one. He’s a 2hp elite. I hate naval warfare. We don’t have enough gold to get Chemistry at the current rate. Science down to 50%.

IBT- Aztecs declare on France. Moskva MI>knight. Detroit same. French building Bachs.

Turn 6 (1010AD) That Arab galley is persistent, stays near our shores. Another galley attack wins clean. Hope the Ansars were aboard. Move elite spear next to Jap settler pair near Yokohama. Collect 47g from Monty for peace.

IBT- India finishes Suns in Bangalore. Sword and MW end up at Balkh. Only a vet horse defending.

Turn 7 (1020AD) Upgrade horse to knight in Detroit.

IBT- Iro sword dies against our horse, but reg MW wins and capures town. We lose 1g. :( Aztecs building Bachs. Americans on Leos and Sistines.Arab and France on Bach. Celts finish Leos.

Turn 8 (1030AD)- Reinforcements up to get our town back. Vey MI kills reg pike and levels pop 1 Gewauga for no gold.

IBT- Everyone is building Bach’s and Sistines. I get the idea.

Turn 9 (1040AD) Reg spear at Balkh is killed by our vet knight who goes elite. Vet MI kills the 2hp MW and Balkh is back under our control. :) Elite galley sinks vet Iro galley. Elite spear by Yokohama finds eqWorker in GH that wants to join our Monarchy. Welcome aboard, eqWorker! Everyone is insulted with the notion of peace.

IBT- Not much, more wonder building going on.

Turn 10 (1050AD) Have 2 MI and knight on their way to Merw. There are currently an Iro, American and Indian size 2 town on our land area. Chemistry in 6. Score 230 and done.

Post turn- Just need time to get some more troops. Japan really wants Yokohama for peace. Must be sitting on uranium or something.

Got it - I'll see what I can do.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD1150_01.SAV

Pre-turn – change Balkh from pikeman to worker. We are only getting one spt and we are +3fpt. I think a worker would be better than a regular pike in 30.

Change the oysters from Hyderabad to New Orleans since Hyderabad is not growing anyway.

Hire a taxman in St. Petersburg instead of working a corrupted tile.

MM Detroit to get knight in 3.

Change Yokohama to work coast instead of corrupted mountain.

Hit space – the Egyptians want Engineering for peace. Counter with peace straight up – doubtful, so no deal. Moskva knight->knight. Japanese finish Sistine Chapel. Everyone is building JS Bachs.

Turn 1 (1060) – Fast troops go toward Gayagaahe since it is so far, slower troops move toward Merw. MM Moskva to 19 spt get next knight in 4.

IBT – Another Iroquois galley approaches Balkh. England and Aztecs MA against France (England declares). Arabs complete JS Bachs – cascade broken.

Turn 2 (1070) – MM Moskva back to 17 spt – knight still in 3, a few extra coins.

IBT Chinese want Chivalry for a world map exchange. Counter with world maps straight up – they would be insulted. I give Mao our territory map. Joan wants an alliance vs. the Aztecs and RoP – sorry, no deal. A barb horse comes out of nowhere to kill 2 workers. Detroit knight ->knight.

Turn 3 (1080) – Vet knight kills the offending barb horse. MM New Orleans for growth in 1.

IBT – Another Iroquois galley appears – not sure where they are heading, but hopefully we can take Gayagaahe then get peace at reasonable terms. American settler pair lands near the iron on the eastern peninsula.

Turn 4 (1090) – Knight finds the barb camp in the south and disburses it. Turn science down to 40% - chemistry still in 2. MM New Orleans for knight in 4.

IBT – Japanese offer peace for 79g + 8gpt – I don’t think so. Aztecs declared on the Mongols. Iroquois veteran knight lands near Detroit – Detroit is defended by veteran pike and elite spear. Celts and France MA against Aztecs (Celts declare). Moskva knight->knight. Indians start Copernicus.

Turn 5 (1100) – Vet MDI attacks regular spear defending Merw – win 2/4. Vet MDI attacks regular spear defending Merw – win 2/4. We captured Merw – start barracks (can be changed). Vet knight kills barb warrior ¾. Another barb camp appears right in the center of our island. MM Moskva to 19spt for next knight in 4. MM Detroit for knight in 4. Arabia is still doubtful for peace straight up even after Merw fell, although they will accept for 40g.

IBT – The Iroquois want 80g for peace – we will wait until we take your city, thank you. Iroquois vet knight attacks Detroit and redlines our pike before dying. A barb warrior attacks a knight but does no damage. We complete chemistry, start Metallurgy. Resistance in Merw ends. Arabs start Copernicus.

Turn 6 (1110) – Vet knight disburses barb camp – ¾. Vet knight attacks vet spear defending Gayagaahe – knocks 1 hp off, then dies. Vet MDI attacks reg spear – wins 3/5. Elite knight attacks ¾ spear – wins 3/5. Gayagaahe is ours – starts barracks (subject to change). Moskva back to 17spt – knight still in 3, plus a few coins. The Iroquois have no more cities on our continent – we give them peace for a fee of 60g. Sell Chemistry to France for 29g + 101gpt. Sell Chemistry to the Iroquois for 33g + 46gpt. Sell Chemistry to the Aztecs for 103g + 28gpt. Sell Chemistry to India for 11g + 45gpt. Finally, sell Chemistry to America for Education and 20g. Nobody else has anything significant.

IBT – America founds Cincinnati on the eastern portion of our island. A couple Japanese galleys appear to the southeast of our homeland.

Turn 7 (1120) – Change Gayagaahe from barracks to harbor since we cannot road to it thanks to the Americans. Sell France our excess furs for 13gpt.

IBT – England and Zulu sign peace. Japan lands samurai and horse by Gayagaahe. England and Aztecs MA against Mongols (England declares). A barb horse attacks a knight and dies. New Orleans knight ->aqueduct.

Turn 8 (1130) – I believe my chances are better to fortify the knight in the Gayagaahe instead of attacking Samurai so I fortify everyone and wait.

IBT – Spain wants to trade World Maps – sure! Samurai and horse both die against our knight in Gayagaahe – 3/5. Japan lands a MDI and a pike. Mongols and Iroquois sign peace. Moskva knight ->knight. Detroit knight ->knight. Balkh worker->worker. Iroquois start Copernicus.

Turn 9 (1140) - Our elite knight attacks the regular pike – did not hurt him at all before retreating. Our elite MDI attacks the reg pike and takes 1 hp before dying – pike promotes. Upgrade a veteran horse to a knight. Disburse another barb camp. Rush library in St. Pete. Rush harbor in Yokohama. Rush harbor in Lahore. Rush library in Jaipur. Moskva back to 19 spt.

IBT – Japanese MDI kills our elite horse in Gayagaahe. Arabs and France sign peace. Lahore harbor ->library (to reclaim some tiles and reduce flip chances – can be changed). Jaipur library ->galley (aqueduct?). St. Pete library -> longbow. Oops – Yokohama rioted, sorry. Yokohama harbor-> barracks.

Turn 10 (1150) – moved spear back to Yokohama to stop rioting. I left many units unmoved so the next player can decide how to configure our next attack.

We have a great cash flow right now (+193gpt with science at 100%). We should buy astronomy and upgrade our navy, and we can rush stuff as needed.

Gayagaahe is in a bit of trouble right now thanks to a very lucky Japanese pike and the American city’s slowing down reinforcements.

I think we have sufficient forces to start a real overseas attack. I think we need to focus on 1 AI at a time for now. I believe our target should be America (India is paying us gpt right now). America has 2 cities on our island (although 1 is still size 1). We can take both of them and then move toward Atlanta and maybe New York. Egypt and Spain are way behind in tech. We should be able to get peace with Egypt for 1 tech, then MA both Egypt and Spain against America for techs. We should try to buy an alliance with India against America for gpt and get an RoP so our troops in Lahore can participate. India and America have fought before so it shouldn’t be that expensive. Once 20 turns are up, we can turn on India. Hopefully, the north/west continent will be ripe for the taking at that point.

There was an Arab galley sailing south of Gayagaahe last turn. I’m hoping the Arabs will settle the silks for us – we could really use another luxury so keep an eye on that island so we can get a full ship there in a hurry when the time is right.

A couple workers should head to Lahore to build and chop forests – I meant to do that during my turns, but no workers were available quickly enough.

pre-flight check - No one will talk. MM Moscow, Lahore, Detroit for additional science.

IBT - Scandinavia and Mongols sign peace. Our redlined Knight in Gayagaahe defeats the MDI but loses to the pike - the Japanese steel 27G. The Arabs talk and want 100G for peace - sorry too much. Japanese are building Copernicus's Observatory.

1160AD(1) - Land 2 knights in Spain. Adjust lux to 10% to prevent Moscow, Detroit, and New Orleans from rioting.

IBT - Spain Demands troop withdrawal and I realize its Egypt we are at war with. Celts and France sign a MA against England. St Pete riots - it didn't show up in Civ Assist so I next through cities to make sure others are happy. America demands troop withdrawal and we move sideways.

1170AD(2) Attack Shimomose and defeat pike and are 4/5. Pick up the knights in Spain.

IBT - Moscow - Knights with MM again for 4 turns. A couple cities expand. Americans are building Coper's.

1180AD(3) 4/5 MDI attacks Shimomose and defeats 3/3 spear. Japan's peace is still too expensive. Trying to get 2 knights through to Gayagaahe.

IBT - The knights move sideways.

1190AD(4) Land Knights near Egyption town.

IBT - Japan lands a MDI near Balkh.

1200AD(5) Send a knight towards Balkh and move a worker into Balkh. Redline a Arab galley near Balkh.

IBT - Scandinavia wants horses. No - its a bluff. Japanese Horse captures Shimomeski. Japanese MDI attacks the knight and loses and we are redlined. Detroit - Knights in 6.

1210AD(6) Attack Byblos with Knight and we win and go 2/4 and capture the city.

IBT - Trade territory maps with Celts. Moscow - Knights in 4. Hyderbad - Aquaduct > MDI

1220AD(7) - Knights can't get through to Gaygaghee - they keep getting sent sideways - sending them back out. Rush some things.

IBT - Mongols want to trade WM for WM and Monarchy - Sorry no. Lahore - Library>Barracks. St Pete - LongBows. Yokohama - Barracks - Longbow.

1230AD(8) Knight captures El-Armana and goes 3/4. Egypt will now give us 2 cities for peace so I take it. I rush a barracks via a Worker in 1 of the new cities. The other is surrounded by us so I just start a barracks. Moscow switched to a galley to go South vs Arabs.

IBT - Moscow Galley>Knights in 4. Byblos Barracks>Spear. Merw Barracks>Library. Balkh Worker>Library. Heiraconpolis Barracks>Spearman with a rush via warrior.

1240AD(9) - Move some units. Kill a barb hut going 1/4.

IBT - Celts and Aztecs sign peace. Hieraconpolis Spear>Spear. American Settler Pair near horse colony.

1250AD(10) - Adjust slider as Metal is due in 1.

No country will give us peace straight up, but Arabia is coming close. Iroqs and Arabia have settled the Silks island and the Iroq city is size 2. I have been unable to get any troops past cincinatti, so America's time is coming close. They will soon have 3 cities on on Island and we can capture 2 when we are in postion.

Please feel free to critique my play. I am not good at all at conquest. I just took these turns and attacked the easiest country we were at war with. I guess I did decent as I captured 2 cities and got 2 more in the peace deal.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD1250_01.SAV

Current Rotation:
Bede - up now
TimBentley
M60
Chamnix
MOTH - Just played

Got it.

Play tonight.

Edit: Or so I thought.

This is a complicated situation which will take some unknotting and more time. I'm still sorting out the IBT options. Will post about 10PM 12/22

I felt lost at many points. The shear number of civs makes it hard to keep track. I relied extensively on CivAssist to tell me when trades were possible.

What is really lacking is a consisten strategy. One of my objectives for this set is to articulate one.

Watch this space.

One thing to throw out about the current build in Moskva. If we run a food deficit of -2, we can run at a production level of 20spt for 20 turns before the granary empties. At that rate, we could do an MI every other turn, for a total of 10 units. Otherwise, we have 5 knights for the same time frame running at a 0 food deficit.

We need Astronomy for bigger boats. It is known by 10 so
should be relatively cheap. And our only trade bait is
Chemistry.

We are currently at war with Zulu, Arabs and Japan, all
of whom hold Astronomy. So there should be something to
be gained from a peace treaty with one of them, or even
all of them.

Checking out the resource situation realize that we have
no saltpeter and there is none available for trading
anywhere....and we are researching Metallurgy. It will
get us a tradeable tech but no military advantage.

Militarily we are scattered, with forces in India, and
our boats are all over the place.

Looks like it is going to go this way. Get peace
treaties with Zulu for Astronomy and whatever else we
can pull out of their hides, then concentrate forces at
Cincinnati to remove that blight from the island, then
down the peninsula to Gayagaahe (Japanese). Assemble
galleys at Cincinnati, then across to the Iro holding on
the silk island, then the Arab town.

So, sign a peace treaty with the Zulu and trade
Chemistry and 100g for Astronomy.

Spend the cash hoard short rushing military, harbors and
libraries. Take advantage of our cash flow to turn up
the research pace to physics.

Use Metallurgy to collect many monies and technology
from the world's nations. Printing Press, Music Theory,
Banking, Navigation and 64gpt plus all their cash.


Then signed a peace treaty with the Arabs as they had
some money to spend.

When forces are in place declare on Abe, then sign the
Indians and the Spanish to an alliance against him.
Capture Cincinnati and Denver at the cost of a single
knight, then move on down the peninisula to Gehaggyye(?)
and capture it from Japan. Move troops out of Lahore
with an RoP with India and capture Atlanta with no
losses.

Japanese and Iro built a couple of new villes on the
island. Only the Japanese town is of any interest. The
Iro town is in the middle of the tundra belt.

Captured Shimonseki on the other island, but the
Japanese landed a pike and longbow at Abydos. I would
sell any improvements and abandon the town, wait for
Hakodate on the home island to grow then take it. Toku
will give Matsuyama for a treaty right now but Hakodate
is worth much more to us than Abydos and Matsuyama
together.

Load knights into galleons to head for the Iro town on
Silk Island.

We have a major resources problem as we lack saltpeter
and cannot build cavs and there appears to be no
tradeable surplus.

Given that concentrate on the home island and Silk
Island and continue to put pressure on America and the
Iro.

I have been dancing with an Indian settler pair trying
to herd them back towards the south.

The Americans have dropped a longbow at Jaipur.
We need to stay out of the warfare at a distance and
concentrate on the home island and the Indo-American
areas. Keep up the scientific heat as there is much cash
to be made.

Conquest will be difficult with this layout. So we need
to concentrate our forces and take them one at a time,
trading with all the rest.

Got it. I'll see if I can finish today.

I've been busy, so I haven't been able to start yet. I haven't even installed Conquests on this computer yet. I'll be busy all day tomorrow, so if M60 wants to take his round, I should be able to play after him.

I wasn't able to get to it over the weekend, TB. Go ahead and play your set tonight if you can.

Okay, I'll play tonight.

Any update on this? It's been a week since the last turnset was played...

Tim has been offline since the 27th. Lets get this rolling again. M60, can you play a set of turns?

Current Rotation:
TimBentley - Skipped?
M60 - up now?
Chamnix
MOTH
Bede

Yep, I'll grab it tonight and have it done by tomorrow.

The latest save at 1360AD (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD1360_01.SAV)

Preturn: It’s been so long, hardly know where to start. Mapstat has no techs on the table except Democracy, so I’ll pass. At war with Japan, hoping Hakodate goes to size 2. Doesn’t look like we have enough to do much against Lincoln.

IBT- LB attacks against Jaipur and Abydos fail.

Turn 1 (1305AD) Spend 15g to investigate Kente. It will grow in 5. Defended by 1 reg pike, so we’ll take it right after.

IBT- India razes New York, size 11. :eek: Spain and America make peace. Hakodate was size 2, evidently he rush bought a pike and now he’s back to size 1.

Turn 2 (1310AD) Move our American group to the NY site.

IBT- Dehli finishes Magellans. New Orleans riots. :mad: Japan lands MI and archer by Balkh.

Turn 3 (1320AD) Kill the Japanese scoundrels.

IBT- France destroys the Aztecs. Physics in, ToG in 16.

Turn 4 (1330AD) Not much.

IBT- India captures San Francisco. Japan makes a couple landings.

Turn 5 (1335AD) I’ve had enough of Japan. Attack and raze Hakodate defended by a reg pike and spear. Make peace with Japan for 24g and 15gpt.

IBT- With more nations learning econ, Smith’s is being built in more places.

Turn 6 (1340AD) Kente size 2, so make war on Iroquois. Capture Kente and Goigouen with our knights. :) Start harbor in Goigouen, but it will be a while. Next to Washington, vet musket shows. So we’ll wait for some Indian assistance.

IBT- Moskva bank>knight. Iro start Shake’s in Niagara Falls.

Turn 7 (1345AD) Cut Abe's iron supply by Washington. Cat fire destroys rax.

IBT- Quiet

Turn 8 (1350AD) Quiet

IBT- Our deals with Arabia end. Start FP in Detroit.

Turn 9 (1355AD) Start to starve Goigouen.

IBT- Egypt and France ally against England. Renew peace with Arabia for which they will sacrifice a goat in our honor. :lol: I’m speechless. Looks like India is preparing to build on the Hakodate site.

Oops, missed 1315 AD, so that was turn 11. Stop here without touching anything.

Post turn: The American adventure has been pretty tame. I hesitate to attack Washington with the thin forces we have there. As soon as Indus on our lands grows to size 2, we need to move on India and claim our native lands. We’re simply not going to make any headway overseas until we get a productive area going in our own neighborhood. Didn’t try to get Mil Trad w/o a salt source. We can probably get it once ToG comes in, due in 8.

Score 349.

Got it - I'm taking a look right now although I probably won't be able to play until tonight.

I need a little guidance before I begin...

Summary of status:

We are at war with America and Iroquois. We have an MA with India against America with 1 turn to go - we are paying 17 gpt and we have an RoP along with the MA.

America will give us either Miami and Dallas or Buffalo for peace. Iroquois won't talk to us.

England is at war with Egypt, France, and Celts. England is down to 2 cities and will probably be eliminated soon. All other civs are at peace.

We are selling furs to France for 13 gpt (can be cancelled anytime).

Democracy, military tradition, and economics are techs known by several civs that we don't have.

We have

6 workers
5 slaves
1 warrior
4 spearmen
11 pikemen
1 longbow
16 knights
2 catapults
3 galleys
2 caravels
14 medieval infantry

We are producing:

1 Medieval Infantry
1 Caravel
2 knights
1 longbow
2 pikemen
7 harbors
1 courthouse
2 libraries
1 marketplace
2 temples
Forbidden Palace

We are strong compared to Egypt, America, Celts, England, China, Mongols, India, Spain
We are average compared to France, Iroquois, Japan, Scandanavia, Zulu
We are weak compared to Arabia

I understand that it is poor SG etiquette to make changes to builds already under construction, so I thought I would run a few ideas by the team to see if we could reach a consensus. I think we are doing too much building for a conquest game. If we need cultural expansion, a library is cheaper and more effective than a temple, especially if we do not need the happiness because the city is unlikely to grow beyond 6. It seems in general we should be building almost all military with an occassional improvement instead of improvements in 2/3 of our cities.

We are also desperately short of workers - steam power is not that far away. Of course, we may not have coal right away, but we will have to find some way of acquiring it once we know where it is.

I'm not sure about the Forbidden Palace in Detroit. It's not far enough away from Moskva to give us a true second core. I don't think our palace will change locations - I don't see us disbanding Moskva, and the way leaders work in this game, they will not be able to rush a palace on another continent. I think the better approach is to rush the FP on another continent with a leader instead of building it in Detroit.

I agree with M60 that our assault on America has pretty much run its course (for now). India is clearly next since they have 4 towns on "our" continent, and the most accessible source of saltpeter is beneath Bengal. Somehow our rep has been shot - Scandanavia will give us 12 gpt for horses, but they will not give us a lump sum of 1g for horses. Oddly, England will give us a lump sum for horses. I'm not used to playing with a bad rep - if I break a deal, it is generally only at the very end of a game. My question is, how should we make peace with America? I think we will get more if we make peace while we still have an MA with India, but that will throw away what is left of our rep. Does that matter anymore?

I'll wait for some comments before playing. I apologize if I am asking/saying anything I shouldn't, but this is my first SG, and this team hasn't discussed an awful lot so I want to make sure I understand where the team is heading before continuing.

My thoughts: I never play at conquest, so I get lost pretty easily. We haven't had much discussion, which is ok as long as we have breaks like this every once in a while to get things straight.

With leaders we cannot rush either the Palace or Forbidden Palace. If we are to get a second core, it will need to be at the expense of Moscow.

As for your direct question: keep what we can of our rep for now. The ROP rep is more critical as we will probably need to use extensive ROP rape on the big continent.

Do we want to do anything about England? If they lose that one city then we can't eliminate them until we get Amphibous troops. Then again, I don't know if we will finish before the modern age. France, Zulu, and Iroq all have at least 1 single tile island.

Oops - you are right about leaders. I just read they could be disbanded for 250 shields so I was thinking that effectively that could rush the FP, but mad-bax did clarify that that would not work. I guess Detroit is as good a place as any for the FP then.

I don't think we can do anything effective about England. We could gift them horses or iron (once we hook up an extra source), but I can't see us attacking the Celts for them - that would slow us down in our primary war too much. I think this game will almost certainly last until amphibious war anyway, unfortunately. Akwesasne looks like a 1-tile island that is already size 7 and has had 2 cultural expansions - I don't see the Iroquois giving that up.

The only other possibility is that we help the Scandinavians to capture these 1 tile islands with their Beserks and then we need to beat on the Vikings to get them gifted to us. We could also gift a size 5+ city to England so that it would become the new capitol. Still the Iroqouis are going to be trouble. I guess we need to rush to Amphib war as quickly as we can.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD1400_01.SAV

OK, I guess I will just use judgment regarding which builds to change – at least I will change builds by several different people instead of just one (including some I probably started myself). That way I can be an equal opportunity offender.

Builds changed:

Abydos – from pikeman in 20 to worker in 1 (lost 1 shield). Abydos does not have a barracks, and we could use another worker (or more) on that landmass to connect our cities.

Byblos – from harbor in 57 to longbow in 17. We need a harbor for growth, but the city is over 80% corrupt, so a harbor will probably do no more than pay for itself. The longbow will not be completed during my set, so if the next player thinks a harbor is better, feel free to change it back, but if we are not going to build military here anytime soon, then we should sell the barracks.

Cincinnati – from harbor in 16 to barracks in 3 (actually should finish in 2 on growth). We don’t need the extra food from a harbor unless we build an aqueduct to get over size 6 – I think military is more important than using 80 shields on a harbor and 100 on an aqueduct.

El-Armana – from harbor in 56 to longbow in 16. Same story as Abydos except we don’t have a barracks already here. This can be changed to barracks first, but I think we are better off not paying the maintenance on a city that can only produce a unit every 30-40 turns.

Gayagaahe – from harbor in 42 to barracks in 12. Same story as Cincinnati.

Kente – from temple in 17 to library in 11. I don’t think a temple has any advantages over a library in this city.

Merw – from temple in 48 to pikeman in 18.

Shiminoseki – from harbor in 63 to longbow in 23. Same as El-Armana.

I hope everyone isn’t too offended by these changes. Almost all can be changed back by the next player if you think I have done something terrible.

1360 – Move 1 galley into position to bring workers to Goigouen to connect silks. Move others to north to bring troops to India at the appropriate time. I think attacking Washington is hopeless so I bombard the American longbow down to 1 hp and attack with our elite knight to try for a leader – win 4/5.

Sell Egypt Printing Press for 28g and their World Map. Cancel furs for 13 gpt to France – sell furs to France for 22gpt. Sell banking to England for 30g + 1gpt. Sell Engineering to the Mongols for 12g. Get gems and 2g from the Zulu for physics. Luxuries from 20% to 10%, science 80% to 90%.

MM Moskva for extra gold and still get knight in 1. Hire a taxman in Lahore since it can’t grow anymore. Hire a taxman in Jaipur (ditto). MM Balkh to complete library in 1. MM Shiminoseki for extra food as long as we are completely corrupt anyway.

IBT – Indians attacked Philadelphia, but fail to capture it. Lots of ships move around. Moskva knight ->worker. Balkh library ->worker. Abydos worker ->worker.

1365 – Cancel our MA against America with India. Sign peace with America for Miami and Dallas – both start pikemen due in 30.

IBT – India builds another town (Pune) on our continent on the ruins near the furs and game forest. America demands our troops leave and saves us from having to make our own way out of her territory – one MDI heads for Miami as hoped. It will take some time to get anyone in Dallas. Moskva worker->knight. French start Shakespeare’s.

1370 – MM Moskva for extra shields.

IBT – Iroquois land 3 knights next to Cincinnati – urp! Lahore flips to India – ouch! We had at least 2 MDI in there. On the plus side, I no longer have to worry about moving more defenders there before declaring on India, which is why I was delaying so far. New Orleans marketplace ->knight. Cincinnati barracks->pikeman. French are building Smith’s. India captured Philadelphia!

1375 – We have nothing to gain by fighting the Iroquois, and Cincinnati is in danger, so I see what Hiawatha wants. He will give us 84g + 5gpt for peace! I jump at it. Of course, now we will have to live with those knights in our territory shadowing Cincinnati, but we will deal with them later. We are now at peace with everyone – that clearly will not do, so I call up Abe and ask him how much he will give us if we help him with the Indians. Unfortunately, all he can offer is 3g, but I take it figuring we won’t want peace that soon, and this might keep him from negotiating with Gandhi. We sign and declare war on India. Luxuries have to go up to 20% to prevent a couple riots.

There was only one spearman defending Punjab – we kill him with our first knight and capture 2 slaves. Punjab starts library. Chitagong is better defended – 2 regular muskets on a hill. The first 2 knights retreat, the third kills one musket, and the fourth kills the other musket. Punjab has a couple resisters so we start a worker.

MM Moskva for extra food and gold.

IBT – America and India sign peace, lol. Oh, crap. India has cavalry (duh!) Atlanta falls to the cavalry onslaught.

1380 – I only see one source of horses in India (near Bombay) so our remaining troops make their way towards it although I’m not optimistic – that Lahore flip hurt! We raze Indus since that was in a useless location anyway – we pick up 2 more slaves. Have to hire a clown in Hyderabad – the Indians there aren’t too happy. The extra cities are adding significant corruption to a couple of our cities of the east end of our continent.

IBT – we lose an MDI to a cavalry.

1385 – nothing notable.

IBT – we lose 2 MDI and 2 catapults to cavs. That is the end of our forces on India’s homeland. Moskva knight->knight. Balkh worker->barracks. Resistance in Chitagong has ended. Chitagong worker-> library. Many civs discover Magnetism – we will have Theory of Gravity in 2.

1390 – I unload 2 pikes on top of India’s horses. Turn science down to 50% - ToG still in 2.

IBT – Japan looks like they might settle where Indus was – maybe there is a future resource there? Arabs want to sell us economics for 490g – no way. Denver library -> harbor.

1395 – I successfully pillage India’s horses. Rush harbor in Goigouen.

IBT - We discover ToG. Set research to Magnetism, but I assume we will trade for that and go to the Industrial Ages. Goigouen finishes harbor (and silks are connected), starts library.

1400 – Dacca grew to size 2 so there is a welcoming committee of knights poised to take it next turn. There are knights outside of Pune to take that if it ever grows (a couple more knights may be necessary). Pikemen who pillaged jump back on a ship so we don’t lose them to a cavalry counterattack.

I will stop here so we are back on schedule. Most civs got ToG as we got it, but we can still get Magnetism from the Iroquois for ToG plus gold, and we can get Military Tradition from the Zulu. With our third luxury just hooked up (as long as we are getting gems in a trade) I’m sure we can turn the luxury slider down and MM lots, but that will all be up to the next player.

Got it, I will try to play this evening.

Goals: trade to get into IA and then sell our free tech for as much as we can. I may even gift a couple civs into the IA if needed just so we can sell our free tech to them a turn or two later. If we get Nationalism then I may hold onto this a bit. How quickly is Arabia or Japan researching?

Tech Research: I think our tech queue should be: Steam>Nationalism>Communism.
The Communism is really the question. Should we revolt to Communism to even out corruption effects?

Even if we get Nationalism, we probably should sell it to everyone on the large continent for maximum gpt. I don't think anyone on the small continent will be able to afford it from them, and everyone on the large continent will have riflemen long before we get there anyway. If we slow down others' research and give ours a kick-start with gpt, and if we can conquer Bengal with its saltpeter and get into our golden age, then I'm hoping we can win this game with tanks (and marines) before anyone gets Mech Infantry.

I agree steam power is our number 1 priority. I usually rush to industrialization next. Regarding Communism, most of our cities seem shield and food poor, but our income seems OK, especially if we get lots of gpt from our free tech. I think we are better off staying in a cash rush government instead of a pop rush. However, if we are going to communism, then we definitely want to cash-rush harbors in several of the cities I switched from harbors before we make the change.

1400 - turn 0 - Trade ToG, WM, and 245G for Magnetism with Iroquois. We get Medicine as our free tech. Trade ToG and Magnets to everyone with techs or money - we net: All optional techs except Free Artistry, 4 gpt, and some spare cash. Shop Medicine to everyone in the IA- Arabia gives us Wool, Wine, WM, 89 GPT, and Free Artistry. France gives us 147G and 74GPT (they had 76 gpt). Iroquois will give us our money back and a MA maybe. I see who else we could declare war on but decide to keep to one war. We have all the gold in the world and can set our tech to 100% with a surplus of 171 GPT for steam in 21 turns. I cash rush a University in Moscow and MM for commerce and we are now at steam in 19.

IBT - India moves workers to horses. Moscow University>Knights. Several are building Newton's. Grand River builds Smith's.

1405 (1) - Look into trades again. We get some more cash. I trade medicine to Japan for 30 GPT even though it locks us in for 20 turns. We also get spices from the celts. I also decide to bring in China and Spain in MAs vs India for an old tech to put some alternate pressure on India. Drop the pikes of near India again. Attack Dacca that now has an Elephant in it - we capture it with just a Knight redlined and we got a slave. Rush some units and a Library.

IBT - Indians capture Miami. Scared away Indian workers. England and France have peace. Arabs build Newtons. Steam in 16 now. Pune grew to size 2. Japanese settle Ise in the inlands of our continent.

1410 (2) - Capture Pune with no losses. Rush some barracks and units. Pull the pikes again.

IBT - Gayagaahe Barracks>Spear. Jaipur Barracks>Pike Chitagong Library>Barracks Cincinnati Pikes. Abydos Worker>Explorer (for pillaging) Kente Library>Barracks

1415 (3) - Rush some more units and barracks. Land the pikes again.

IBT - The Pikes die but take a longbow with them. Yoko Barracks>Worker Shimoneski Barracks>Worker Heiraconpolis Pikes

We are now paying for 3 units.

1420(4) Rush a couple Libraries. Move units towards one of Indias Saltpeter cities.

IBT - Indian Frigate moves near ours. Arabia declares war on France. Moscow Knights Dacca Library>Barracks Pune Library>Barracks.

1425(5) Trade for some more gold and Saltpeter!!! from the Arabs. Saltpeter for Silks, Furs (not suplus yet), and 27 GPT. I call back the Knights to upgrade to Cossacks! Spend all our cash upgrading Cossocks.

IBT - Palace Expands.

1430(6) Send a Galleon with 3 Cossocks and a Musket towards Indian Saltpeter city. More upgrades.

IBT - Indian FRigate barely sinks our Galleon. No more deep trips.

1435(7) Send a Galleon loaded with Cossocks directly to Indian coast. Damn - another Frigate and workers block the shore. :crossesfingers:

IBT - Japans Peace treaty comes back up. Indian Frigate moves away and redlined Frigate moves into City near Galleon with Cossocks. Forbidden Palace in Detroit - starts University (can be vetoed by next player).

1440(8) Check MM with new FP. Land cossocks near Calcutta (in Forest).

IBT - Egypt declares on China. India lands a Cav next to Jaipur on the Mountain.

1445 (9) Cossock kills Indian Cav on Mountain - Golden Age!!!!! Steam drops from 6 to 5 turns. Cossocks vs Calculta showing a regular Musket: 1st wins and redlines. 2nd loses but redlines musket. 3rd wins and promotes and destroys a Frigate in port - 4 resistors - barracks and harbor captured. Steam now 4 turns. Check MM.

IBT - Indian Cav dies attacking our Elite Cossock. Palace Expands.

1450(10) A Cossock dies attacking a Cav. A 2nd Promotes to Elite on the same Cav.

Feel Free to change any of my builds. We currently have a ton of cash and are getting +189GPT. Steam in 3 turns. Cross your fingers for Coal. Next turn we have a FRigate that can start bombing the Indian Horses.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD1450_01.SAV

Firaxis 429
Jason 281

Why do I play to 1am? I don't think I made any huge mistakes and was suprised that the AI found the Galleon way out at sea. :(

Current Situation:
I didn't do any turn 10 trades. We have running GPT deals with bunches of nations. I kept being able to trade some of the older techs like Chemistry to some of the other nations for GPT. I figured we've got some going on India before we could face someone else. We've got 400+ gold right now, so we can certainly cash rush some more units.

I think that after we research Steam that we can hold onto it for a while (5 turns). I doubt that any of the AI are running any better than 20 turn research right now (especially with all the GPT we are sucking out of them). We should also turn down the burners and rake in the cash for more rushes of Cossacks (look I spelled it right this time).

I think the number 1 priority should be to dump in every Cossack we can into the Indian mainland. We need to capture a Saltpeter source and we need to secure Coal if its not in our territory already. We are nearly on the doorstep of their capital, so that should be a strong blow against them.

Current Rotation:
Bede - Up now
TimBentley
M60
Chamnix
MOTH - just played

Oh yeah, we have a suplus silk now that we can sell. Next to our silk city is a lake, so we can irrigate the grassland to help that city grow. Our 3rd furs should be coming on line during the IBT. This is not a surplus fur as I traded one of our furs in the Arab Saltpeter deal. Japan has Dyes and are giving us 30GPT for 11 more turns, so there is a possible trade there for more happiness. We also have surplus Iron and Horses, so there might be a couple possible deals there too.

We have 11 turns left on our MA with China and Spain against India, so we can't get peace for a bit anyway.

Sounds like a great job on the trades.

I couldn't find it in anyone's turnlog, but if I remember correctly, India has Leos. Maybe - take Bengal with its saltpeter and don't build a harbor. Once our saltpeter import trade has expired, build outdated units on our mainland and upgrade them in the former India. One downside is that happiness will be a problem on the Indian subcontinent, but I think we will have to starve down the larger cities if we intend to keep them anyway.

We already have a harbor in Calcutta (came with the city). Once we get Bengal and our Saltpeter deal expires then we should be able to do the resource disconnect trick as I think there is a single tile that connects Bengal to the rest of the continent. I was actually thinking that maybe we should do this trick with Iron as well. We currently have 1 surplus Iron which we might be able to trade(gift) to someone like England. We can then disconnect one of the other Irons and build Horsemen and reconnect the Saltpeter to upgrade to Cossacks. We will need to hook the Iron back up when building railroads.

Got it. Play tonight. Put Ukranians on horseback with rifles.

Got it. Play tonight. Put Ukranians on horseback with rifles.



1450
Peace breaks out all over. Spain signs a Peace Treaty with Gandhi and Egypt and England sign a peace treaty and our wool is lost. Buy Dyes from Japan for Silks and 140g to make up for it.

Vikings finish Shake's Theatre.


1455
Renegotiate a peace deal with Arabia for wool and his treasury in exchange for our horses.

Turn up the lux slider to kick off WLKTD to get rid of waste in the core cities.

1460
Gems deal with Zululand expires. Dial up Abu and get the wool back plus 35g and 15gpt for our horses after threatening war.

Then call up Abe and sell him ToG for 46g and 11gpt

1470
Indian cavalry show up outside Dallas so I trade Abe Medicine for an alliance against the Indians.

1475
Atlanta falls to India. Then Hiawatha comes calling to renew the Peace Treaty.

In 1480 put six cossacks ashore at Jaipur and assault the Indian capitol. Ten cossacks charge the town, one is killed but four muskets die. The nine survivors pull back towards Calcutta.

Trade Hiawatha Steam Power for Nationalism plus 145g and 15gpt. Now we don't need saltpeter for defense, just for Frigates and Cannon. Of course we have no coal and Hiawatha has no extra. The Zulu have one extra connected but one source is in a town outside their primary territory...Shaka has money so I basically give him Steam, and it turns out he has not connected his second source.

In 1500, after building some cannon and healing the Cossacks go after the Indian capitol and burn it to the ground, relieving some of the cultural pressure on Calcutta.

There have been no Indian counterattacks. They have been hammering on Abe. We can invite Isabella to the party for technology if we wish.

A whole bunch of gpt deals expired so our income crashed, we have some trade bait but there is not much money in the world. I set research to max for Industrialization, we are going to need factories to keep production up. I'm also building markets and banks where I can, to be followed by universities as we need the research power and culture.

Take the Cossacks and cannon and burn Madras to the ground, then capture and hold Kohlapur and rush the cultural buildings for border expansion and then a harbor. (Coal)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5_MOTH_1500.jpg

Now that I've got a better picture of the lay of the land I think the best strategy to follow is to burn inland cities first to reduce cultural pressure, then keep the coastal ones.

Detroit is building the Heroic Epic. We need leaders for armies and to rush expensive things like factories and universities. Keep WLKTD going as long as you can as that has really boosted output in the homeland.

I used our cash after learning Steam to rush Cossacks, muskets and some improvements.

Firaxis score: 485
Jason score: 318



Here it is (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD1500_01.SAV)

Current Rotation:

M60 - up unless Tim is heard from
Chamnix
MOTH
Bede - played
TimBentley - Skipped?

I'll give TB 24 hrs to grab it.

Nothing from TB, so I got it. Results tomorrow.

The save at 1550AD (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD1550_01.SAV)

Preturn: No need to go this alone. Bring Izzy into the war against Ghandi for a world map.

IBT- Iroand Arabia sign MPP. Americans want an MPP. Not likely. Cleo wants to trade world map. Not at this time. New Orleans cannon>Cossack. Celt spice deal expires.

Turn 1 (1505) Move Cossacks next to Madras.

IBT- Nothing

Turn 2 (1510) Lose a Cossack as we take Madras from 2 reg muskets and a cav. All our other Cossacks are beat up. Move the other Cossacks into Madras, so we have six in garrison that we need to heal and then throw at Kolhapur.

IBT- Quiet, except a lone Indian rifle moves next to Madras.

Turn 3 (1515) Cossacks healing in Madras. Offload a couple more Cossacks in Calcutta.

IBT- Indian Rifle kills defending Cossack in Madras. Then disaster strikes as Madras flips with its 5 cossack defenders inside. :cry:

Turn 4 (1520) Cossack attacks Madras and recaptures it. Madras won’t flip again as I raze it immediately. :p Disconnect an Indian iron source.

IBT- Palace gets a lawn care program.

Turn 5 (1525) Capture Kohlapur with the same 2-musket, one Cav defender. Trade Brennus spices for iron.

IBT- Nothing much

Turn 6 (1530) Quiet.

IBT- Indian cav kills a Cossack. Rifle kills another wounded Cossack. Detroit finishes Epic. Start Cossack.

Turn 7 (1535) Kohlapur can’t be held. I evacuate the town and abandon it.

IBT- Indians lose a cav to an elite Cossack. Indutrialization in. Electricity next.

Turn 8 (1540) Moscow changes from Cossack> factory.

IBT-zzz

Turn 9 (1545) Worker actions.
IBT- Iro declare on French, India loses a cav attacking Calcutta. Scandanavia declares on France. Golden Age ends.

Turn 10 (1550) Drop off a cannon at Calcutta.

Post turn- The Madras Flip Fiasco aside, this scenario just isn’t much fun for me. Sorry, but it’s like empire building and warmongering in slow motion. We aren’t going to get anywhere with this “Europe on $5 a Day” plan, i.e 6 cossacks and a couple cannons. We need minimum about 25-30 cossacks over there to bring down India. Even if I had burned Madras, our redlined units would have been hunted down before they got to the safety of Calcutta. We should just hold tight onto Calcutta and keep ferrying troops into there until we have a sizable force, then we can do some damage.

Score 539.

Sorry; I was having troubles with the Internet. Hopefully the problems will only last for a day or less now that I'm at college. I can jump in now, if desired. I'll have plenty of time tomorrow, since classes don't start until Tuesday.

Got it - I will play tomorrow.

I wish we'd managed to keep either Madras or Kolhapur around - now we still don't have coal, and it will take some time before we can build a colony there with any confidence that we can defend it.

Edit: Sorry TB, didn't see your post. You can take it since you haven't played in a while.

Here are the notes I started making:

Moskva is at +4 fpt but cannot grow. We could be at +20spt instead of +12 (factory in 7 instead of 11).
We are building a cossack in Dakka without a barracks.
Jaipur is working a mountain instead of coast.
St. Petersburg is working desert instead of a specialist.
Yokohama is working a mountain instead of a specialist.
Denver is building a marketplace at 2 spt with 2 pop.
Hieraconopolis is working desert.

We are researching electricity in 29 turns at +4gpt. A minimum run will put us at +99gpt and only be 38 turns.

We are paying 27 gpt + silks + furs for saltpeter. Consider cancelling this if we can take Bengal quickly.

Arabia and Iroquios will both pay large gpt for Industrialization. Japan will pay considerably less - Japan is probably researching it so we should trade it for all we can before they finish.

Some good points, Chamnix. Has anyone submitted our info for the first spoiler?

1550(0)-some MMing (how nice of Chamnix to do most of the work for me), switch Dacca to rax, switch Denver to rax, switch Jaipur to cossack
sell industrialization to Iroquois for 106g, 196gpt
cancel saltpeter deal with Arabia
when I propose industrialization and furs to Arabia for saltpeter and 1g, they complain about how we treated Scandinavia
sell industrialization to Arabia for saltpeter, 111g, 16gpt
sell industrialization to Japan for 124g, 8gpt
Vikings would refuse to pay 1g, 1gpt for silks (edit: I see Chamnix had already noticed our injured reputation)
renegogiate silks for dyes deal with Japan (had just expired) and throw in 8gpt
science to 90%, electricity in 13 turns, +128gpt
I'm not sure why tundra is being mined
wake up some military on home island to send to front

IBT-Denver rax->cossack
Japan starts Universal Suffrage

1555(1)-Iroquois know electricity, 556g would insult them

IBT-Arabia demands silks, I reluctantly give in due to our deals
Detroit cossack->cossack
build both wings to palace and their second stories

1560(2)-zzz

IBT-renegogiate gems deal with Zulu, giving 31gpt
renegogiate wines deal with France, giving furs and 15gpt
renegogiate peace with Arabia, losing wool
Dacca rax->cossack

1565(3)-Arabia no longer has extra wool
raise lux to 20% to reinstate WLTKD except in New Orleans; hiring a specialist there would lose more shields than it would gain

IBT-Egypt, India sign trade embargo against us

1570(4)-20% doesn't seem to be helping much than 10% would (only Hyderabad seems to lose production), so reduce lux to 10%

1575(5)-zzz

1580(6)-sell industrialization to Zulu for sanitation
sell sanitation to Japan for electricity, 8g
AI undoubtedly is researching replaceable parts, start research on scientific method

IBT-Two Indian cavs attack Calcutta; one retreats, one dies
India, America sign peace
Moskva factory->cossack
Merw market->cossack

1585(7)-elite cossack kills cav

IBT-Hyderabad cossack->cossack
Detroit cossack->cossack
Chittagong cossack->cossack
Cincinnati cossack->cossack

1590(8)-Zulu has communism, won't accept electricity and all our gold

IBT-pollution strikes Moskva

1595(9)-zzz

IBT-Arabia, France sign peace
Punjab market->barracks
Kente cossack->cossack

1600(10)-3 civs have communism and won't sell

Notes: We could build the Theory of Evolution in Movska
I expect Iroquois or Arabia to have researched replaceable parts by the time we research scientific method
There are now 10 cossacks, 10 cannons, and a rifleman in Calcutta

Here is the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD1600_01.SAV).

With Tim's most recent posting we are now:
Current Rotation:
Chamnix - up now
MOTH
Bede
M60
TimBentley - just played

I have the feeling somebody pillaged a road or something about 960 AD, cutting our fur connection to Scandinavia, and the game stupidly blamed it on us.

Got it. I should be able to play tonight - I will certainly at least spend some time looking at it tonight.

MOTH had brought up the possibilty of Communism earlier. My opinion is that we are better off in Monarchy due to cash rushing, but does anyone feel strongly that Communism is better in case I can acquire it during my turns?

According to CivAssist, all cities in communism would have 88% corruption. Those in WLTKD would have 49% waste (which would mean if cities got courthouses they would have 49% corruption). On the other hand, alexman's calculator says they would have 33% corruption, 19% with a courthouse. I trust alexman's numbers more. I've never thought communism was a good choice pre-Conquests.

If you need to reneogtiate or open a per turn deal, threaten war, if it is an available option.

This game is PTW so Communism is useful to us only for police stations.

I'm in my 7th turn. Major events so far: we have a cossack army (although it is injured and will take forever to heal :rolleyes: ), and Lahore is ours again.

Here is the tech situation:

We have a monopoly on Scientific Method. Things that are "available":

Arabs: Corporation, Replaceable Parts, 17g, 157gpt.
Vikings: Corporation, 2g, 0gpt.
Zulu: Corporation, Replaceable Parts, 0g, 2gpt.
Japan: Corporation, 108g, 9gpt.
Iroquois: Corporation, Replaceable Parts, 525g, 109gpt.

All of them except the Vikings also have Communism, but I don't see that as a priority.

The Arabs or the Iroquois will give all their gold for Sci Method, but if I try to include a tech from them, our advisor becomes doubtful. If I ask for replaceable parts from the Arabs for Sci Method, they will throw in 73 gpt. If I get it from the Iroquois for Sci Method, they will give 79 gpt.

My usual approach would be to take all of Arabia's gold since they have the most, then take all of the Iroquois', then try to trade for Replaceable Parts from the Zulu. After that, get the Corporation and all the gold from Japan even if I have to give them 2 techs to do it.

I am certain nobody has any more advanced techs as both the Corp and Rep Parts are recent discoveries.

We have been researching replaceable parts for 3 turns and will have it in 8 more. The Iroquois are currently paying us 196gpt which will expire in 3 turns.

I have been following Bede's trading training SG with interest and have learned that my instinct is often wrong, so I thought I would take this opportunity to ask the experts the likely best way to handle this.

Here is the save if you need to see what the advisor thinks of different options.

Thanks for the plug....RikM is really the trading expert.

But I'll take a look and post tonight.

And here it is:

First thing I would do is pump up the kitty with sales of the obsolete techs. Then move on to the other guys who lack an enabling tech for SciMeth. You should get some more gold and gpt that way. All this is just paving the way for doing the deal for RepParts with cash and gpt rather than SciMeth.

Then look for somebody who has no money and with whom we have a Peace Treaty that needs renegotiating and offer gpt only for RepParts or some combination of cash and credit. The Zulu make a nice prospect. If they won't make a deal throw a little coin their way and move on to the next prospect (victim).

There are a lot of permutations here.

The next thing to consider is that in just over 19turns we can self-research both the Corporation and Atomic Theory. If we win the race to ToE that gives us Electronics for Hoover and another tech towards tanks.

Or we could do a deal for The Corporation and self research Steel or Refining.

You may even be able to put the screws on Hiawatha for the Corporation as our treaty with him is up for negotiation if you are willing to run 100% science at close to deficit. Then when we are close to complete on ToE peddle him SciMeth and get the coin back.

What I am getting at is holding SciMeth close to the vest and using our income to power our way forward. Then using SciMeth and whatever else we can research to recoup our expenditure.

Rifle to infantry upgrades only cost 20g and we have a bunch in the bank and not a lot of rifles. Cannon to artillery cost 80g but we only have 11 of those.

You should have some fun with this, Chaminix

I have underused renegotiating peace in my own games, so I have a couple questions...

We are weak against (for example) the Iroquois. Is renegiating peace with them still a good idea, or have you ever been in a situation where it cost you something to renegotiate peace?

Our rep is shot so we generally cannot pay gpt for techs. Will this change if we do it as part of a peace deal? If not, I don't think we will have enough cash (even after collecting everyone's loose change) to buy Rep Parts without Sci Method.

I think we will be able to get Theory of Evolution. Moskva is a pretty productive city, we have a 3-4 turn head start, and there is no cascade that will get there first (the Zulu and Japan have just started Universal Suffrage).

It may cost money sometimes, but it's worth it to be able to pay gpt. Yes, it may be slightly exploitive, but the computer is willing to conduct per-turn deals with you regardless of your reputation.

It should work a treat.

And I don't consider it a bit exploitative as the AI does it all the tiem. Only difference is you don't get a chance to back down. If you can't make a deal of some kind it's war.

@Chaminix, any questions on mechanics?

And I don't consider it a bit exploitative as the AI does it all the tiem.
Good point.

Interesting. It looks like if the AI could research scientific method in less than 10 turns, they would research it before refining. Otherwise, they would research refining first. Hard to tell their researching speed since different civilizations are researching different technologies first.

@Chaminix, any questions on mechanics?

No, I think I've got it:

Step 1 - Clear out everyone else's gold/gpt with techs other than Sci Method.

Step 2 - Turn Science to 0% to maximize our tradable gpt.

Step 3 - Pick a victim (probably the Zulu). Renegotiate peace and put Rep Parts on their side. See how much gpt it would take. I guess the downside is that if I think the Zulu want too much and move on to someone else, I have lost the ability to renegotiate peace with the Zulu if nobody else has a better deal, right?

Step 4 - Try to trade for the Corporation probably from Vikings or Japan. Renegotiate peace if available to get the best deal. Give gold and/or Rep Parts if absolutely necessary, but not Sci Method. All things being equal, the Vikings would be better since they have less gold so it would be easier to get our gold back with Sci Method in step 5.

Step 5 - Probably get all we can for Sci Method starting with the richest civ. I don't think we have a lot to gain by holding onto this longer, and we do have a lot to lose if someone else completes it before we sell it.

Any comments on our next research project?

No, I think I've got it:

Step 1 - Clear out everyone else's gold/gpt with techs other than Sci Method.

Step 2 - Turn Science to 0% to maximize our tradable gpt.

Step 3 - Pick a victim (probably the Zulu). Renegotiate peace and put Rep Parts on their side. See how much gpt it would take. I guess the downside is that if I think the Zulu want too much and move on to someone else, I have lost the ability to renegotiate peace with the Zulu if nobody else has a better deal, right?

Step 4 - Try to trade for the Corporation probably from Vikings or Japan. Renegotiate peace if available to get the best deal. Give gold and/or Rep Parts if absolutely necessary, but not Sci Method. All things being equal, the Vikings would be better since they have less gold so it would be easier to get our gold back with Sci Method in step 5.

Step 5 - Probably get all we can for Sci Method starting with the richest civ. I don't think we have a lot to gain by holding onto this longer, and we do have a lot to lose if someone else completes it before we sell it.

Any comments on our next research project?

Bang on on Step 3.

As for next project take whatever path will maximize the return form SciMeth. We have room to self-research at least two before ToE finishes.

Since we don't have coal at home Hoover's will be a big boost to production. Start a pre-build in our second most productive town?

I can say for certain that we would be the first to research steel or atomic theory.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD1650_01.SAV

Pre-Turn: We have 2 extra furs. Sell one to the Arabs for 26 gpt, the other goes to the Iroquois for wines and 7 gpt.

MM Moskva for max gold - cossack still in 1.

MM New Orleans for extra food/gold - cossack still in 1.

MM Pune for extra gold - cossack in 1.

TimBentley did a nice job setting up a city capturing force (10 cossacks + 10 cannons). I think we need some more rifles to walk along with the cannons so I adjust a couple cossack builds to rifles. Rush some units in our less productive cities.

We can run luxuries at 0% without riots.

10% pushes only Konte into WLTKD.

20% also pushes Balkh, Detroit, Hyderabad, Jaipur, Moskva, and New Orleans into WLTKD, but the only one of these cities with significant corruption is Jaipur, and that will not make up for the lost revenue. Therefore keep luxury slider at 0%, and push science to 100%. We are at + 119 gpt.

And away we go.

IBT - 2 Indian cavalry try their luck at Calcutta. Both die, but the second one grants us a leader!
Arabia declared war on the French.
Moskva cossack ->cossack.
New Orleans rifle ->rifle.
Denver cossack->cossack.
Pune cossack->cossack.

Turn 1 (1605) - Ivan the Terrible builds a cossack army.
An Indian Frigate/Caravel drifted near Calcutta. We bomb the Frigate with one Frigate so the Caravel defends - we sink the caravel with another frigate.
MM Moskva for extra shields again - work the mountain. We get 27 spt (cossack in 3) with -1fpt until the pollution is cleared.

IBT - Hyderabad rifleman->galleon.


Turn 2 (1610) - Hurry courthouse in Calcutta.

IBT - Calcutta courthouse ->rifle
Detroit rifle->cossack
Zulu start Universal Suffrage.

Turn 3 (1615) - We ferry 3 rifles and 10 cannons across the sea to outside Lahore. MapStat says we need a garrison of 4 to keep Calcutta from flipping, so we leave 1 rifle and 4 cossacks there (1 extra out of paranoia), and the others (including the army) take the land route and join the rifles and cannons.

Japan has extra coal, but they want 92 gpt for it - we will take India's soon enough.
Science down to 80% - Scientific Method still in 2.

IBT - Indian frigate sinks one of our frigates.
Moskva cossack ->cossack

Turn 4 (1620) - Zululand, Japan, Arabia, and Iroquois all have the corporation. I don't see any reason to try to pick that up yet.

10 cannon shots took 1 hp off a rifleman and destroyed the barracks in Lahore.
Our army takes a beating but conquers Lahore - we pick up 2 slaves. We move 2 rifles into Lahore to defend it, but we are not taking a chance of losing significant troops again.
Science to 70% - Scientific Method in 1.

IBT - An Indian cavalry kills one of our rifles in Lahore.
The Iroquois want an embargo vs. the French. Nothing in it for us, so no.
Finish Scientific Method, start Replaceable Parts.
Our people want the Military Academy.
Gayagaahe courthouse->cossack
Punjab barracks->cossack

Turn 5 (1625) - Bombay's top defender is a musket so I decide to try to attack now instead of waiting for the cannons (cannons didn't seem all that helpful anyway). First cossack - no damage, retreat. Second cossack - takes 1 hp from a vet musket, retreats. Third cossack - takes 1hp from a reg musket, retreats. Fourth cossack - kills regular musket. Fifth cossack - no damage to 3/4 musket, dies. Sixth cossack - kills 3/4 musket. Top defender is now conscript rifle. Bombay is on hills - I don't like my chances, so I do not send any more cossacks this turn. Elite cossack kills redlined Indian cossack (victim of cannon fire) - wins cleanly.

Moskva changed to Theory of Evolution - 22 turns.

Arabia and Zulu both have decent gpt to trade for Sci Method, but I will try to wait for the Iroquois - they are paying us 196 gpt for another 5 turns and are bankrupt now. Once that deal expires, hopefully we can hit all 3 for huge amounts again.

Science back to 100% - Replaceable parts in 11.

Our deal with the Celts (iron for spices) expires. The Celts now have iron, so we can't renew, but they give us both spices and wool for Medicine.

IBT - we kill one Indian cav and lose one cossack to an Indian cav.
France and Iroquois sign peace.
China and Egypt sign peace.
The resistance in Lahore ends.
Chittigong cossack->cossack.

Turn 6 (1630) - cannons march toward Bombay.
We pillage India's horses again.
Injured cossacks retreat to Calcutta to heal.
Lahore hurries a library.
Nobody is offering less than last turn for Sci Method, so hopefully waiting is the right call.

IBT - we lose an elite cossack to an Indian cav - I had thought the vet rifleman covering him would defend.
France and Scandanavia sign peace.
England wants an MPP - I don't think so.
Lahore library ->harbor.
Cincinnate cossack->cossack.

Turn 7 (1635) - Iroquois, Arabia, and Zululand all have Replacable Parts. It looks like the Iroquois discovered it because they now have much cash available.

Sell our Territory Map to America for their 1 gold and their territory map.
Sell our Territory Map to France for their 2 gold and their territory map.
The Celts refuse to part with their 1 gold for our world map, and I refuse to part with an obsolete tech for 1g.
Pick up England’s 33g for Theory of Gravity.
Get 45 g + 12gpt from China for Medicine.
Get the Mongols 32 gold for Theology.
Get 30g + 6gpt from Spain for Medicine.

Iroquois go from “doubtful” to “close” on Rep Parts at 1420g.
Arabs take 1476 to go to “close”
Zulu take 1504.

I don’t know how relevant that is, but I decide to go after Hiawatha.
We offer peace straight up – doubtful. That didn’t work. Give them 1gpt + 2g for peace – 22g is much better than losing the 196gpt they are paying us for the next 3 turns and fighting a war we are really not ready for.
The Arabs are strong compared to us – the Zulu are average. I will try the Zulu.
Peace straight up with Zulu – acceptable. They would even give 1gpt for peace – I guess this is as good as it gets. Get Rep Parts from Zulu for 87 gpt and 20 turns of peace and harmony.

In case anyone was wondering, we have no rubber. America has 1 source in their far western territory. Arabs have 2 sources, but 1 needs a harbor before its available. Zulu have the only available source.

The Vikings will sell us Corporation for 1384g or Rep Parts. The Japanese will sell for 1384 also. If we trade Rep Parts, they will give the Corporation, all 108g, and 1 of their 9 gpt.

We are weak compared to Japan, average compared to Scandanavia. Try renegotiating peace with Scandanavia – they won’t give the Corporation. Give them Rep Parts for the Corporation.

Sell Rep Parts to Japan for 108g + 9 gpt.

Rubber is worth 57 gpt to the Zulu so the Arabs will still pay the most for Sci Method. Sell Sci Method to the Arabs for 17g and 157gpt. Sell Sci Method to the Zulu for rubber and 5g + 29gpt –wow the price dropped fast. Sell Sci Method to the Iroquois for 527g and 48gpt.

Thanks to TB’s guarantee, we research steel since Atomic Theory is more expensive – 11 turns at 100% + 288gpt.

A vet Cossack kills a cav, promotes. Vet coss kills cav, promotes.

Change Detroit to factory – rush it. Prebuild for Hoovers next.

IBT – India moves a lone longbow near Lahore. I try not to laugh, but fail.
Detroit factory ->Universal Suffrage (prebuild for Hoovers).
Denver infantry->Cossack.

Turn 8 (1640) – Our cannons due minimal damage to Bombay.
We lose 2 cossacks, but kill 1 longbow, 3 conscript rifles, 1 musket and a cav – Bombay is razed. Boston is now the capital of India.

IBT – Yokohama library->Cossack.
Balkh marketplace->infantry.

Turn 9 (1645) – kill a few more Indians.

IBT – Jaipur Cossack ->galleon.
Zulu start Theory of Evolution.
We lost our saltpeter (deal with Arabia expired).

1650 – Upgrade our cannons to artillery.
We capture Kolhapur at the cost of 1 cossack.

India is breaking – they have no source of horses anymore and few cavalry remaining. The healing Cossacks in Calcutta should be able to take New Delhi (and coal) next turn. Workers are primed for railroad building. Our saltpeter deal with Arabia has expired. We can wait one more turn and use silk to reduce the price of saltpeter, or just build knights until we take Bengal.

Got it. I will play tomorrow

IBT Initial Trading:
Arabia - I will wait 2 turns for the peace deal to expire as well and then see about Saltpeter.
Japan - Dyes for Silk + 8gpt is expired. They will give us dyes and gpt for Sci Method. I bring peace up and now I also get all their GPT.
Zulu have coal that the Silk makes more affordable, but I wait to see if we capture our own source.
Spain - I sell Iron for 1 GPT and cash.
Iroquois - Sell Silk for 37GPT.

Other: Switch to a Library in Heiraconpolis (and Shimoneski) as that has a high flip chance. Sapporo is between 10 and 99 culture, so I'll see if we can fight it.

1655: Attack New Delhi - The first 3 cossocks redline doing 1 damage. The Elite attacks - wins - and gets Peter the Great leader!!!!! [party] I start shipping him home to hurry Scientific Method (after the next research project completes) then I remember that you can't do that and I form another Army instead. All the workers start railroading.

IBT - Our people want to build the Iron Works - Not now...

1660 - I hold on the Saltpeter deal for now. We can wait and build some knights. Capture Madras with our brand spankin new Army (1 damage).

IBT - India has horses again as they captured Barcelona from Spain. They recapture Kohlapur from us with a Cav (we had an injured Cav defending.) This cuts off our coal but we will get it back. Lots of people know Espionage.

1665 - Recapture Kohlapur after bombarding an Elite Cav and a reg Cav.

IBT - Indian Cavs kill 2 of ours.

1670 - Capture Bengal and Saltpeter. We need borderr expansion before it will cross India's territory. Kill a couple of Indian Cavs.

IBT - Indian Cav kills one of ours. Japan declared war on Iroquois. Bengal Riots - next turn it will starve and we can rush a temple.

1675 - Kill an Indian Cav and Rifle. Investigate Sapporo to see what Culure is doing. They are in Democracy and have a Golden Age. 68 Culture with a temple. We have 15 culture with a Library.

IBT - An Indian Cav attacks one of ours and loses but a second kills ours. Bengal is still resisting but starves 1. At home, cultural borders expand and our Iron colony is absorbed - no more gaps. Japan and Iroquois are marching through our land to get at each other.

1680 - Bombard and attack Ganges - 3 redlined troops. Elite Cav loses. Cav Army wins twice. Vet Cav wins and promotes. This gets us in range of the choke point. I pillage a road and cut India's horses off. MM Moscow - it will starve for 8 turns but cuts one off of ToE.

IBT - Indian Cav comes from nowhere to capture Madras. Indian Cav kills our pillager.

1685 - Adjust sliders for steel in 1 turn - 50% science. Bombard and Kill a couple of Cavs. Recapture Madras.

IBT - Indian Cav kills one of ours and redlines. We discover Steel set Science queue to Electronics and science to 0. Tim was true to his word - we are the only ones with it. A Spanish Conquistador stops by near Ganges (we still have an active MA vs India).

1690 - Kill a Cav. Move units. Check trades again now that we have steel. I hold onto steel 1 more turn to see if refining will show up.

IBT - India attacks with a longbow and loses. India and Spain sign Peace.

1695 - Check trades and the price from Japan dropped, so I sell steel. Iroq give 75 GPT, Communism, Espionage and some cash. Japan's price goes back up with Communism and Espionage gone - 102GPT and 21GPT for furs. Zulu give 66 GPT. Arabia gives Saltpeter (they don't have any cash) Upgrade a couple Knights to Cavs.

Attack Karachi and redline an Army and damage a Cav killing 2 defenders.

IBT - The Japanese and Iroquois battle near Kente - only an Iroq Knight survives.

1700 - Bombard and Capture Atlanta. Kill a unit in Karachi, but need to pull back but Army #2 is adjacent.

ToE due in 4 turns. Flip risks are pretty low. I am starving Ganges - but you might want to rush a worker next to cut down to size 1. We should have our own source of Saltpeter on the IBT due to expansion. We could sell this to be able to build Knights again later. Knights are working there way to the Indian continent - upgrade them in Calcutta or Lahore.

I will edit to include the save and score in a few minutes (once I submit)

Edit: Firaxis score: 697
Jason score: 456

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD1700_01.SAV

Got it. Play tomorrow. Post some notions tonight.

It looks like the Indian war is progressing. Perhaps we will want to start an American war soon to get the rest of the cities in the area?

A note regarding tundra de/reforestation. If you chop a forest and then mine it (with a railroad obviously), it should be clear it has already been chopped.

Somebody's going to research refining any time now.

I hadn't commented on it, but we have a halfway decent rail-net now. It goes from the South-Central area to our Northern port. We have connected several our Cities near St.Pete's as well. We also have a decent net in India's old territorry. We've actually got a slight surplus of slaves in the old India territory, but we will need them to rebuild the road nets that I long distance bombed to slow down India's Cav's routes to our cities. Once we capture (or raze) Karachi we will need to connect in the roads and Rails.

As for India's Core (Karachi, Boston, and another), the flip risk will be high until they are starved down. I've been seeing 2-4% flip risk in captured cities until they have been starved and border expanded. I've been defending with 0 or 1 units in some of these cases so as to not lose too many units. That was how the Indians managed to recapture the couple of cities from me. The bigest flip risk was still next to Sapporo. We now have a Library and Temple and should pass Sapporo's culture about the time we both reach 100 culture (~13 turns I think).

As for long term strategy, I really think we should consider a Palace jump. There are 2 ways I could see doing this:
1. Traditional - Abandon Moscow with all its nice culture and wonders :(
2. Rebuild the Palace in a city near Moscow and then abandon that city.

The 2nd is obviously much longer term, but has the advantage of not losing one of our most productive cities. It would probably take 40 turns to rebuild the Palace in the city closest to Moscow. I didn't want to start on my turns in case we needed the Palace for the Hoover's pre-build. I guess we could start this now.

Where will we be in 40 turns? We could be in position at that time to consider a Palace jump to the Southern Continent and get a few turns benefit from the Palace Rank corruption exploit.

1700-1750
The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD1750_01.SAV)

We have successfully bankrupted the Arabs as theyhave nothing no cash to offer for our furs. And theyhave so little in the bank that threatening war to get them to take them will only lead to a really bad deal.

Don't need the wines for furs deal from Iro right now and I want them to build up their cash so we have someplace to sell our shiny new techs to in four turns as no one as any other monies to spend.

Used the pile of cash in the treasury to rush knights at home and harbors on the sub continent as we are making 675gpt for the next four at least with research shut down.

1705
Lose an artillery unit to Indian cavalry then kill the cav with elite MDI, no joy. Raze Karachi. Upgrade knights to cossacks.

Iroquois take Ise from Japan.

1715
Maneuver around trying to find the best way to Bangalore. DEcide that a thrust from New Delhi is best.

Capture an Indian settler and kill a rifle north of Ganges.

1730
Raze Bangalore including Sun Tzu's Art of War.

Get Refining and all his gold from Hiawatha for Atomic Theory and we have no oil, he does, all of it.

Keep WLKTD going in the homeland so we get rid of that last wasted shield by buying wool and spices from the Celts and raising the luxury bar. Without oil we have no reason to hurry towards Combustion.

1750
Make the move on Boston but I am one short of taking the town.

Iroquois found Kiohera on the Indian sub-continent.

Once done with Boston we can probably take Washington en passant then Buffalo, Philadelphia and San Francisco and Miami.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5_MOTH_1750A.jpg


Then across from Chicago to Madrid, Toledo and Barcelona. It just takes time to position, capture, then heal up the armies and the other wounded.

Building factories in the homeland which can be rushed once Hoover is done.

Keep an eye on the trade opportunities and make a deal for Combustion and Oil as soon as Combustion is available, then upgrade the galleons.

We will win this one but it is not going to garner any prizes for speed of finish.

Keep an eye on the trade opportunities and make a deal for Combustion and Oil as soon as Combustion is available, then upgrade the galleons.
Make sure you buy oil before combustion (or in the same deal probably would work).

Current Rotation:
M60 - up now
TimBentley
Chamnix
MOTH
Bede - just played

Got it. Playing tonight.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD1770_01.SAV

Preturn: At war with India, keep up the pressure.

IBT- Lose dyes, renew peace with Japan. Renew silk deal with Iroquois, down to 33gpt vs. 37. Moskva Cossack>hospital.

Turn 1 (1752AD) Lose 2 cossacks attacking 2 rifles in Boston. Take the town with the army. Kill 2 Indian cav vic Chicago with army now 5/14.

IBT- Japan completes US.

Turn 2 (1754AD) Capture Toledo defended by reg rifle. Capture San Francisco defended by a vet rifle.

IBT- Reg Indian cav dies attacking a Cossack.

Turn 3 (1756) Capture Philadelphia and Madrid which has the Pyramids. Cossacks facing some draftee rifles now.

IBT- Arabs try to extort furs. Tell him to take a hike, he backs down. Ganges riots. :(

Turn 4 (1758AD) Trade a Cossack for a rifle by Madrid. Worker actions.

IBT- France wants MPP. No thanks.

Turn 5 (1760AD) Kill another reg Indian rifle by Madrid. More worker stuff.

IBT- America and India sign TE against us. Vikes and Iro sign MPP. Hoover in Detroit, infantry next. Vikes declare war on Japan.

Turn 6 (1762AD) Attack an Indian rifle in St. Louis and capture the place, killing an MGL. Wonder what Gandhi was saving him for? Capture Miami that costs us a Cossack. Capture Dallas which leaves India with Barcelona. Should be it for India next turn if nothing flips next IBT.

IBT- Nothing flips, so we’re looking good.

Turn 7 (1764AD) Artillery redlines lone rifle in Barcelona. Cossack kills him, embargo between India and America ends, and Gandhi is out. :p

Now for what has to be one of the more bizarre turns in history: Move a Cossack adjacent to Washington to check out the defense, and IT’S EMPTY???? :eek: Move out of the area, declare war which brings Egypt against us since they had an MPP and another Cossack takes the American capital without firing a shot. I have never seen that in all the time I’ve been playing Civ. Absolutely incredible, we’re talking about a vacant size 11 city capital. Move a Cossack army up to Buffalo, and IT’S EMPTY!!! :eek: :eek: What happened, did the American army implode? Cossacks advance to find Elephantine empty, and so is Baltimore, and the AMERICANS ARE DEFEATED!!
:eek: :eek: :eek:

IBT- Palace gets some work done on the front.

Turn 8 (1766AD) Worker actions, move a Cossack army up towards Heliopolis, but we’re a bit thin for troops again. Suggest we keep Detroit on infantry duty for a while.

IBT- Japan lands 2 cav and a samurai in our homeland, but they’re after the Iroquois town of Ise. Iro counter kills samurai, cav, and redlines the last cav with an MI.

Turn 9 (1768AD) We’re at over 6700 gold now, and still no signs of combustion. I’m going to fire up the science. At 90% we’re still @ 133gpt and combustion in 10. Rush a few libraries.

IBT- Not much

Turn 10 (1770AD) Load up some workers and a couple infantry on galleons and send them abroad. Cossack army moves up to Heliopolis and finds a pike defending. Worker actions, and done.

Post turn: Just need more infantry up in the old American-Indian territories. Only at war with Egypt who are no threat. Score 831.

Maybe America was broke and all of his units eventually were disbanded.

Got it. I'll play tomorrow.

It looks like it's only worth the effort to capture Heliopolis from Egypt. The other cities can be captured when the marines come. Spain seems like the next victim.

I think I'll research towards tanks. Oh, I thought the AI would research flight before mass production. Maybe if I researched flight I could trade it for mass production. I still think I'll go for mass production after combustion.

Now for what has to be one of the more bizarre turns in history: Move a Cossack adjacent to Washington to check out the defense, and IT’S EMPTY???? Move out of the area, declare war which brings Egypt against us since they had an MPP and another Cossack takes the American capital without firing a shot. I have never seen that in all the time I’ve been playing Civ. Absolutely incredible, we’re talking about a vacant size 11 city capital. Move a Cossack army up to Buffalo, and IT’S EMPTY!!! What happened, did the American army implode? Cossacks advance to find Elephantine empty, and so is Baltimore, and the AMERICANS ARE DEFEATED!!

:rotfl:

What a victory, bloodless., truly en passant.

And, yeah, just roll 'em up like window shades.

1770(0)-switch Moskva to cossack, Detroit to infantry, make a few other changes
Raise science to 100%

IBT-Scandinavian ironclads bombard Japan

1772(1)-Last turn I thought I couldn't get Moskva to 45spt; well it's now making infantry
Army kills 3 pikes to capture Heliopolis, settler
New Egyptian capital is Asyut, take their WM and 11g for peace

IBT-renew silks for gem deal with Zulu, up payment from 15gpt to 16gpt

1774(2)-zzz

1776(3)-rush a couple of courthouses
Just now notice the forest on grassland by Pune

IBT-pollution by Chittagong

1778(4)-zzz

1780(5)-zzz

1782(6)-sell furs and 72g to Iroquois for wines
sell furs to Japan for 23gpt
sell steel to Celts for spices, wool, WM

IBT-pollution strikes Detroit (why the hills?)

1784(7)-sell furs to Zulu for 26gpt
buy oil from Iroquois for 1gpt

IBT-learn combustion, start on mass production

1786(8)-zzz

IBT-OCC France, Vikings sign MA against Japan

1788(9)-many people know combustion

IBT-OCC Mongols, France sign MA against Japan (do Mongols have a death wish?)
Pollution strikes Pune (on a mountain!)

1790(10)-zzz

Notes: I would have started war with Spain, but I decided to leave it for the next player.

Here is the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD1790_01.SAV).

Got it - I should be able to play tonight.

Initial thoughts:

It looks like all the oil in the world is in the northeast. Unless I am missing some somewhere, the Arabs and the Iroquois are monopolizing it now. If we control that area, the rest of the world will be easy. Of course, those two have the strongest militaries (we are strong compared to everyone else - average compared to those two). I think it may be time to use the RoP Abuse we have been saving. Since Iroquois are giving us oil now and can afford massive gpt for Electronics, the Arabs are the best choice. I think the best plan is:

1. Move all troops we can spare toward Arabia but outside of their territory.
2. Declare war on someone else on the large continent - sign an MA with Arabia (so some of their troops will leave home) and an RoP.
3. Load troops into Arabia and position strategically - locations to be determined.
4. Declare war on Arabia and sign an MA with Iroquois in case Arabia has an RoP with Iroquois - we don't want their troops getting home quickly. Besides, we can use the help.

This plan will take some time to get together - we need more ships and a LOT more artillery. Cossacks vs. infantry in cities will not be fun.

Alternatively we could sign an RoP with the Iroquois and use their territory as a launching point for the Arabian attack so we don't abuse RoP, but I think if we can conquer Arabia quickly, we won't need RoP abuse again so there is no point in saving it.

The other option is to continue preying on the weak until we get stronger, but at some point we will have to fight for oil - I would rather do it now before others have tanks and planes.

Comments?

I agree that its time to be dastardly. Use ROP abuse against Arabia. Be sure to capture their city on that little southern island with the luxuries (as well as any other fringe cities near our territory).

Raze their capital and capture an oil city or two and then sue for peace (as soon as MAs are gone or will our MA rep already be trash as well?) for as many fringe cities as we can get. We can then rest and repair and then abuse the peace treaty and attack again.

Sounds like a good plan to me. Keep in mind we've got oil for 17 turns, if that helps with the planning. After that it would cost significantly more than 1gpt. We will have to watch for ships bombarding our shores.

I only got in a few turns last night. Significant events - China declared on us so we captured Thebes from them. We have an MA against China and an RoP with the Arabs. The first couple landing parties have disembarked in Arabia. I have been working my way through our bank account by rushing artillery every other turn in our 1 shield cities in the north.

I'll try to finish tonight.

Turns are taking forever now even though it seems as if nothing is happening...

The turnlog for my first 7:

Pre-turn:

Move some units toward the ships. Micromanage some. Rush several artillery.

The Zulu have 70gpt available but will only give 48gpt for electronics, so I figure it’s time to sell before they finish. Get 649g + 253gpt from the Iroquois. Get 8 + 88gpt + Dyes from Japan. Get 99g + 5gpt from the Zulu.

Change a couple builds on our home island to factory to take advantage of Hoovers.

Iroquois cancel our deal – we were giving them silk for 33gpt.

Turn 1 (1792) – Load ships, move toward Arabia. Auction off our silks to the highest bidder (Iroquois at 32 gpt).

IBT – nothing of note

Turn 2 (1794) – Build an embassy in Arabia. Mecca is guarded by 6 infantry (3 regular, 3 vet.) 28spt, palace, barracks, temple, market, library, bank, cathedral, university, colloseum, JS Bachs, hospital, battlefield medicine. 6 luxuries total – 2 furs, 1 each of wine, dyes, incense, spices, and silks, 2 rubber, 2 oil, 1 coal, 3 salt, 3 iron, 2 horses, 40% research, 60% tax, factory in 1.

Decide to declare on China – we have no per turn deals, and we have the added bonus that we can take Thebes and a settler pair wandering across our territory. Instead of declaring, I tell them to remove their forces or declare - they declare so we get a little bonus happiness.

We sign an RoP and MA against China with Arabia – we have to throw in 1 of our 2 excess furs, but they will throw in 1 gpt.

We take out the Chinese cav defending the settler – 2 more slaves for us.
We capture Thebes without loss.
Our first troops are unloaded in Arabia.

IBT – nothing

Turn 3 (1796) – more troops to Arabia.

IBT – a lone Chinese Frigate bombs our mainland.

Turn 4 (1798) – more troops to Arabia.

IBT – Chinese Frigate bombs again.

Turn 5 (1800) – More troops to Arabia. Turn science to 60% - mass production still in 2.

IBT – The Chinese want to talk. We are not ready to betray Arabia yet, so no.

Turn 6 (1802) – I send a Cossack on a tour of Arabia. Muscat has a musket (hmm…) as its top defender but has no strategic value to us. Chartres also has a musket and it has got oil. Marseilles has a rifleman. Everywhere else (I think) has infantry. Science to 50% - mass production next turn.

IBT – We discover mass production (monopoly), start motorized transport – 8 turns @100%.

Turn 7 (1804) – The last available troops reach Arabia. We are ready for war next turn.

I am going to pause here because I think our next move is critical – we will only get one chance to do maximum damage to Arabia. I’m thinking Chartres is a must since it has oil, is defended by muskets, and has no culture, but I'm undecided where the rest of the troops should hit first.

By my count, we have 2 cossack armies, 31 artillery, 21 cossacks, 9 infantry, and 1 guerilla in Arabia to position as we wish.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=79976&stc=1

If we still have loads of cash then go ahead and spend hundreds or more spying on the Arab border cities and/or those near Chartres. You can determine exactly how many defenders of what type are present and plan the attack. My guess is that we want 3-1 attackers per combat (mabybe 2-1 if only muskets deffending.)

We will have 1200-1300g at the beginning of next turn for investigating. I really don't want to use to use cossacks against infantry (especially in cities/metros) without artillery support. We can overwhelm them with numbers, but we will lose so many that it will be hard to keep our gains and make it impossible to progress after the initial sneak attack.

After sleeping on it, I think we have enough cossacks to take the musket/rifle towns without artillery after investigating. Any idea what the probability is of artillery doing damage to an infantry in a city is? i.e. how many artillery do we need per infantry in order to be likely to be able to reduce all to 1 hp?

Assuming an infantry is fortified on grassland in a city, artillery has about a 49.8% chance of doing 1hp of damage, and about a 22.1% chance of doing 2hp of damage. If I calculated correctly, 3 artillery would have a 36.1% (edit: actually 60%) chance of bombarding it to 1hp, and 4 artillery would have a 62.8% (edit: actually 81.3%) chance of bombarding it to 1hp.

Based on my (admittedly very imperfect) memories of past games, those numbers seem awfully high... does that 49.8% take into account the chance that the artillery will sometimes destroy an improvement or kill people instead of damaging the infantry?

No. I have read there is a 30% chance of hurting the units (as opposed to improvements or citizens) (apparently that changed in Conquests), so I believe artillery would have a 14.94% chance of doing 1hp of damage, and a 6.63% chance of doing 2hp of damage. There should be a 18.7% chance that 5 artillery (or less) would bombard a veteran infantry to 1hp. 5 artillery should have a 42% chance to bombard it to 2hp.

Pre-turn:

Move some units toward the ships. Micromanage some. Rush several artillery.

The Zulu have 70gpt available but will only give 48gpt for electronics, so I figure it’s time to sell before they finish. Get 649g + 253gpt from the Iroquois. Get 8 + 88gpt + Dyes from Japan. Get 99g + 5gpt from the Zulu.

Change a couple builds on our home island to factory to take advantage of Hoovers.

Iroquois cancel our deal – we gave them silk for 33gpt.

Turn 1 (1792) – Load ships, move toward Arabia. Auction off our silks to the highest bidder (Iroquois at 32 gpt).

IBT – nothing of note

Turn 2 (1794) – Build an embassy in Arabia. Mecca is guarded by 6 infantry (3 regular, 3 vet.) 28spt, palace, barracks, temple, market, library, bank, cathedral, university, colloseum, JS Bachs, hospital, battlefield medicine. 6 luxuries total – 2 furs, 1 each of wine, dyes, incense, spices, and silks, 2 rubber, 2 oil, 1 coal, 3 salt, 3 iron, 2 horses, 40% research, 60% tax, factory in 1.



Decide to declare on China – we have no per turn deals, and we have the added bonus that we can take Thebes and a settler pair wandering across our territory. I tell them to remove their forces or declare, they declare so we get a little bonus.

We sign an RoP and MA against China with Arabia – we have to throw in 1 of our 2 excess furs, but they will throw in 1 gpt.

We take out the Chinese cav defending the settler – 2 more slaves for us.
We capture Thebes without loss.
Our first troops are unloaded in Arabia.

IBT – nothing

Turn 3 (1796) – more troops to Arabia.

IBT – a lone Chinese Frigate bombs our mainland.

Turn 4 (1798) – more troops to Arabia.

IBT – Chinese Frigate bombs again.

Turn 5 (1800) – More troops to Arabia. Turn science to 60% - mass production still in 2.

IBT – The Chinese want to talk. We are not ready to betray Arabia yet, so no.

Turn 6 (1802) – I send a Cossack on a tour of Arabia. Muscat has a musket (hmm…) as its top defender but has no strategic value. Chartres also has a musket and it has got oil. Marseilles has a rifleman. Everywhere else (I think) has infantry. Science to 50% - mass production next.

IBT – We discover mass production (first), start motorized transport – 8 turns @100%.

Turn 7 (1804) – The last available troops reach Arabia. We are ready for war.

I am going to pause here because I think our next move is critical – we will only get one chance to do maximum damage to Arabia. I’m thinking Chartres is a must since it has oil, is defended by muskets, and has no culture.

By my count, we have 2 armies, 31 artillery, 21 cossacks, 9 infantry, and 1 guerilla in Arabia to position as we wish.

IBT – Celts and Arabia sign MPP – crap. The Celts are currently giving us spices and wool for nothing for 8 turns – we can potentially take both from Arabian lands.

Turn 8 (1806) – Decide to investigate a couple cities to see if war is still worthwhile. Investigate Chartres – defended by a veteran musket and a regular spear, no improvements. Investigate Medina – 3 infantry (2 vets, 1 reg) and a vet cavalry.

Investigate Fustat – 2 vet infantry, cav in 1.

Check Grenoble – 1 reg inf, 1 reg musket.

I think trying 2 cities with “real” defense is 2 risky – if we are only going for 1, it might as well be Mecca.

Position the forces as I think best, and tell Abu Bakr we are at war. Before I actually attack, I dial up Brennus – I can’t talk him into an alliance against the Arabs. I thought I’d try. The Iroquois join us for 31gpt. We sign peace with China – they give us Chengdu which is useless, but better useless for us than them.

Now the attacks begin – we capture Chartres without loss. We lose 2 cossacks, but successfully take Marseilles. We knock Mecca to size 3 with artillery and destroy many buildings, but don’t do enough harm to the infantry – I decide not to attack this turn. Units get fortified on a hill with the artillery. Our people are not as happy as they were, but no riots coming, so I leave lux at 0%. Wait for the counterattack…

IBT – Celts declared on the Chinese. Celts declare on the Iroquois. Arabs retake Marseilles – I had left most troops outside due to flip risk.

Turn 9 (1808) – Chartres has almost a 5% flip risk. We sink an Arabia ironclad. After much bombardment, Mecca is a city of 1 guarded by redlined infantry. It cost us more Cossacks than I would have liked, but Mecca is razed.

IBT – Arabs fail to retake Chartres even with its minimal defense – they all sent 1 cav so they must not have any troops to spare.

Turn 10 (1810) – The artillery stack works over Fustat. We gain a leader, but it will take some time to escort him to an army- building location. We raze Fustat.

I think the strategy for now is to slow play - move the artillery stack from city to city, minimize casualties. I can't tell you how many cossacks I lost even attacking redlined infantry in towns. We are only 5 turns from tanks so we can plan on doing real damage then.



http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD1810_01.SAV

I've got it and will hopefully play tonight.

What is the teams opinion on a palace jump sometime in the next 20 turns? It would greatly reduce the flip risks and could give us the benifit of reduced corruption until we get the new core running. We would have to find a high food area to join in a bunch of workers and we would have to station a lot of military there to get the jump to work.

During my turns, I will see if I can cut off Arabia's sources of Oil and Rubber. If possible I will see if I can cut a road network that could cut off the remaining oil in the world. As soon as we research Tanks, I will cut research to about a 20 turns towards Marines to save money for rushing tanks in corrupt cities that have barracks.

I haven't had much experience in palace jumps, so really can't say. Big bonus if we can corner the world's oil supply.

What is the teams opinion on a palace jump sometime in the next 20 turns? It would greatly reduce the flip risks and could give us the benifit of reduced corruption until we get the new core running. We would have to find a high food area to join in a bunch of workers and we would have to station a lot of military there to get the jump to work.

I've never done a palace jump either so I'm not sure... Reduced flip risk would be nice, but Arabia's culture is a lot higher than ours so we will have to live with some risk anyway. Do we intend to keep enough Arab cities to qualify as a second core?


During my turns, I will see if I can cut off Arabia's sources of Oil and Rubber.

If I recall correctly, they have 3 sources of rubber - one on the island west of their mainland (can be bombarded by ship if necessary), one on their northern shore, and one directly underneath one of their cities on the west coast. It will certainly be difficult to cut all 3 within 10 turns, but if you think it is possible, then it would certainly be nice not to have any new infantry to deal with.

I don't think the Arabs had even finished combustion by the end of my turns, so we should be able to do severe damage to their cities before their oil is very useful to them.


As soon as we research Tanks, I will cut research to about a 20 turns towards Marines to save money for rushing tanks in corrupt cities that have barracks.

I was thinking the same thing - I would even consider a 40-turn run with 1 scientist. I doubt we will run out of places to attack with tanks in 40 turns so the more tanks the better. The question is do we want flight, or will amphibious war be the last thing we research this game? If we get enough tanks quickly enough to control the oil then nobody else will have planes, and there is no lethal bombard.

I have never done a palace jump. I really only know the basics: pts for population, pointsfor nearby cities, and points for military units in the city. Usually Tim comes along at a time like this with accurate info on the mechanics.

As for reseach, I was mainly thinking about 20 turns so that we could turn research back up without a waste. the min science route would be wasted turns...

I'm going to start now if the baby decides to nap...

I have never done a palace jump. I really only know the basics: pts for population, pointsfor nearby cities, and points for military units in the city. Usually Tim comes along at a time like this with accurate info on the mechanics.
3 points for national citizens, 1 point for foreign citizen, 1 point for neighboring town, 2 points for neighboring city, 3 points for neighboring metropolis (neighboring meaning within 17x17 square), 1 point for military unit.
I'm not sure it would be worth it to abandon Moskva, however (although all wonders are basically obsolete, aren't they?).

pre-flight: some MM and switch most specialists from Tax to Science and we get Motor Trans in 4 instead of 5 (with 12 taxmen left).

IBT - England and Arabia sign a trade embargo against us. Arabia bombards our shores 2x to no effect. They lose a cav to us and we lose one to them.

1812(1) - Trading: Clean out Egypt. Japan won't touch a MA vs Arabia, but will go for a MPP/ROP and paying us 47GPT. This will get them in the war but might get us to war with the Vikings - I take it. I get England in the War with Medicine. China and the Mongols come into the war as well. Zulus are the only ones sitting it out.

IBT - We are at war with the Vikings. Japan declared war on the Celts and Arabia and took out one of the ironclads that was bombarding us. Damn - Japan attacked the Iroqouis and we are not at war and lost our wine and oil. :( I must of missed that they were at with the Iroqs. What a mess of wars now. We lost a Cav.

1814(2) - Move units mainly. Kill a Iroq Cav and MI on our continent.

IBT - Kill a Arab Cav.

1816(3) - Capture Aydab on our Silk island. Bombard 1 of Arabia's 2 Oil. Move an Army in that General Direction.

IBT - Arabia and China declare peace. we lose 2 cavs and Arabs 1. Motorized Transportation comes in and I work on Amphib War in 40 on min run. A lot of our GPT deals run out.

1818(4) - Remanage cities and start a policy of Drafting in the 95% corrupt cities. Capture Ise from Iroq. Kill an Arab Cav

IBT - An Arab Cav dies. New Delhi riots and I check happiness.

1820(5) - Land some units on the mountain island. Move some units. Bombard Iroq Oil. Worker to connect our oil.

IBT - Arabia declares on China. Iroqs try yo plant a spy. Arabs capture city on Mountain island from Iroq Infantry - we'll get it next turn.

1822(6) - Capture Ganogeh from Arabia. Cut off Arabia's Rubber and Oil. next turn cut the oil they are trading to someone. Leader is now in Chartres waiting for Tanks.

IBT - France is at war with us now. Egypt declares on us. Arabia captures an Oil town from Iroqs. One more to disconnect.

1824(7) Cut Arab Oil. Zulu have Radio.

IBT - Not much - observing the Arabs kicking Iroqs.

1826(8) - Capture Kufah from Arabia. Setup Washington to build Library in 1 so I can next through cities and build tanks. Move units.

IBT - Arabs recaptures Kufah losing 5 Cavs but killing our Army. Egypt brings Zulu into the war against Arabia. We build many tanks.

1828(9) - Disconnect Arabs last (traded) Oil. 3 Tanks try to take the Iroq city on the Indian continent and leave a red-lined infantry. Cav takes York from the Vikings. Tank and 2 Cavs in an Army head for a city near Chartres. Short Rush a Tank in Moscow with the last of our cash.

IBT - China is destroyed by the Arabs. York riots when protests stop.

1830(1) - Capture Kihioro on Indian Continent. Leave with lots of movement remaining as I've got to go shopping.

I'll comment more later....

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD1830_01.SAV

Firaxis score: 1098
Jason score: 719

My thoughts:
our arty stack has been working its way home. Perhaps the armour can meet up with it

We have some transports in various locations that can be used to bring in some of the troops in the western mountain rings and/or the main continents. One loaded with the first 6 tanks is near the Celt's land where we just took York.

Regarding the oil state, I think we are 1 turn from cutting off all the effective oil in the world. There will still be 2 connected in the north, but I don't think they have a route to the Iroq homelands.

We should probably trade Mass Production soon.

Got it. Play tomorow.

1840 (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD1840_01.SAV)

Played five before power went down.

1830
Locate our far flung troops. Looks like the Arab offensive is running out of gas, so begin a consoidation move towards Chartres.

Which fails. Over the course of ten years Chartres changes hands three times and finally the two armies are destroyed and the town is back in Arab hands.

To prevent rioting at home I have to keep buying luxes from Japan and Zulu and anybody with anything to spare and eventually have to give up Mass Production to get the money and luxes we need.

Kufah is destroyed just becasue the troops are there and the artilery and infantry begin a march towards Baghdad hoping to meet tanks and infantry coming in from the west.

There are tanks and transports on the little island to the east of the home island and we can finush the Arab presence there next. Load the tansk back on the trasnports and head for the west coast of Arabia.

I finished off the treasury rushing tanks on the Indian sub-continent. Pick them up in Elephantine and head for Gandestaigon, the Iro oil town on the big continent. May be we can take and hold that one while the tanks make their way across Arabia. Took the little Egyptian town on the island, drop off an infantry garrison when the transport leaves for the Iro oil town.

Tightened the hold on the Celtic end of the continent by taking London.

And in a final gesture take a straigth up peace deal from the Vikings as I see no reason to be at war with them any longer.

I am still perplexed as to how we are going to get to the victory condition. There are 129 cities and towns left to conquer (this includes the one tile English, French and Egyptian capitols) We have 142 fighting troops but they are spread all over the place. We are going to need flight to hold down casualties as well as Marines to finish off the one tilers but without oil we can't build the tanks and airplanes needed for fortified infantry in cities....There are 284 turns to go.....

Got it. Should be able to play tomorrow.

I am still perplexed as to how we are going to get to the victory condition. There are 129 cities and towns left to conquer (this includes the one tile English, French and Egyptian capitols) We have 142 fighting troops but they are spread all over the place. We are going to need flight to hold down casualties as well as Marines to finish off the one tilers but without oil we can't build the tanks and airplanes needed for fortified infantry in cities....There are 284 turns to go.....

I can't check the save now, but I think you have the answer right here - oil is the key, and we need to focus our troops. All the oil is in Arabia and Iroquois. As soon as our MPP with Japan ends, we need to get out of that (should be 6-7 more turns). Make peace with everyone except either Iroquois or Arabia (whichever seems more vulnerable). Keep Iroquois and Arabia at war with each other. Mass our troops and take and hold oil towns - one at a time. Destroy the rest. Once we do enough damage to either Arabia or Iroquois effectively to destroy their productive capability, do the same to the other.

If we get out of other wars and focus all our energy on the northeastern corner of the map (where the oil is!), we should be able to conquer that territory. If we have oil and nobody else does, we will be able to move quickly in more directions later, but we need focus now.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD1860_01.SAV

Looked at the save. The oil monopoly strategy will simply not work, plain and simple. Too much ground to cover right now. We should be happy to get our artillery out alive, as our troops in the area are almost gone. The war against the Arabs should simply end, as there can be no further success given our forces in this area. We can get Mosul at the peace table. The oil source at Gandastagion must be our main focus at the moment.

The 1-tile islands and a couple of these worthless barren islands mean nothing as we get close to the end. At that point, it’s nothing but a mop-up operation. So marines are necessary, but not too many now.


Log not standard here, as the formatting has a mind of it’s own tonight.

Pre-turn: End the war with the Arabs for Mosul and Shiraz.

Start moving tanks aboard transports to head towards Gandastagion.

Zulu active on the Celtic front. Egypt wants to talk- no.

Iro and Mongols sign MPP. Celts and England sign peace. England wants to talk- No. Mongols declare on Japan. Mongols then declare on us.

Celts and England do embargo.

Our tanks take Gandastagion.

Celts destroy Mongols, so much for their alliance against us. Resistance ends in Gandastagion.

Spend 316g to rush harbor at Gandastagion. Intelligence Agency comes in.

Iroquois and Arabs sign peace. Egypt and Arabs sign peace. Harbor in Gandastagion complete, oil back on line.

Get the follow up force that was at Mosul to within a couple tiles of Shiraz..

Tyendanaga falls to our tanks. Rush temple in Gandastagion. Follow up force moves into Shiraz and runs by rail to Tyendanaga.

Trading Time: 134g and MT to Zulu for Amphibious war. MT and Amphib to Japan for Radio and 201g. Science to 100%, flight in 9.

Plant spy in Seville, Spain. They can be crushed as soon as the RoP ends, as all they have are a few rifles and LBs.

Merde! Iro infantry captures and kills workers I left unprotected by the second oil at Gandastagion. :mad: Well they were all foreign labor at least.

In 1860, pass a transport by the Egyptian capital, 1-tile island, spear defending. Just need another marine or two, and they’re cooked. One loaded already in Hyderabad. Try to plant a spy with Arabs and we fail, Arabs declare on us. How rude! OK, we lose two tanks and take Khanawake, Dijon, Caughnawaga, Avignon, and Bukhara from them. :) Assorted defenders from a pike, infantry, and cav. Two in each town. Our SoD (tank, 7 inf, 23 arty) which has been sitting quietly in neutral ground moves out to 3 tiles from Anjar. Link them up with the tanks and we can have some fun. ;) Flight in 6 when we’ll head off to the Modern age, and done with score 1244.

Post turn. Probably time to call an end to the Iroquois war and focus on Abu. Did next to nothing by London and York. Don’t even see a reason to be there, quite honestly.

Got it. I'll play tomorrow.

I just looked at the save for a couple minutes this morning…

I don’t think there is any reason for us to be at war with France or the Celts, and both will pay for peace. We definitely do not want to be at war with both Arabia and Iroquois, and ideally they should be at war with each other. I agree we should sign peace with the Iroquois, and we should also try to get an MA with Iroquois against Arabs.

If we take the last Egyptian city, we need to place a unit on the 1-tile island next to them until our culture expands to cover it.

I’m not sure we need to rush to flight. The Arabs only have a couple large cities, and we still have an artillery stack wandering around their territory to cut them down to size. I think we may be better off with slower research and more money to rush ground troops.

If we do choose to continue with fast research, we need to start a UN prebuild at some point so nobody else can hold a vote – with all the wars it would be difficult to imagine anyone winning a vote, but I’d rather not take the chance.

If we are only in one war and devote all our troops to it, we have enough to smash Arabia. Even just moving some more infantry over to free our tanks from city-guarding duty will speed the process a lot. The tanks can attack any available towns first, while the artillery stack works its way around to the cities and metros and knocks them down to towns.

Edit: I also think it may be time to mobilize - we can end mobilization anytime by destroying or agreeing to peace with Egypt.

I’m not sure we need to rush to flight.

I believe we should, because of the airlift capability it provides. Granted the bombers aren't urgently needed, but the need to speed delivery time of the new units to the Arab front is. Transports take too long, and the fight for the world will be decided on this land mass. After flight, we pick up computers if we're lucky. Then it's mech infantry time. We can go 1 scientist from then on if we want.

Tim,
have you had a chance to play or should we skip to the next person?

I've played some, but I haven't completed many turns. I'll see how much I can play tonight. I might just post what I've played.

1860(0)-make minor changes
Mobilization will wait for market in Ese at least
get WM, 6g from France for peace
get Kazan, WM, 3g from Celts for peace
spend 180g, plant spy in Iroquois, fail in Arabia
Iroquois have 39 infantry, some ships, and a leader
get Allegheny, 90g from Iroquois for peace
No way to get MA against Arabia (with peace treaty or alone)
We're sorry for what we did to England, honest!
Start some stock exchanges so we can have Wall Street

IBT-frigate killed by Arab ironclad
Arabia captures Allegheny
Spain, Egypt sign embargo against us

1862(1)-zzz

IBT-Spain, Celts sign peace
Scandinavia, Egypt sign embargo against us

1864(2)-Marine kills spear in Asyut

IBT-embargo between Spain and Iroquois ends

1866(3)-Every artillery bombards Anjar, but conscript inf still left
lose one inf, promote one inf, capture Anjar
Marine kills spear in Asyut, captures city
embargoes from Spain and Scandinavia with Egypt end

IBT-Zulu are invading Arabia
Iroquois, Arabia sign embargo against us

1868(4)-4 people know flight
Buy flight from Iroquois for 10g
We learn ecology
Start on computers; slow research so airports can be rushed
Fail to bombard oil near Yamama
Take out some Arabian invaders
Capture Oka

IBT-Iroquois, Japan sign peace

1870(5)-lux deal with Japan ran out, buy wines, dyes for furs, silks, 86gpt (selling them ecology would be a large discount)
Capture Fez, Chartres, Rouen
Bombard one of Yamama's oil

IBT-renew peace treaty with Zulu

1872(6)-we have our own wool, buy gems from Zulu for silks, 35gpt (for WLTKD)
Capture Muscat, Yamama
Rush airport in Gandasetaigon

IBT-Embargo between England, France ends

1874(7)-Capture Baghdad, raze Orleans
Cancel ROP with Spain, declare war
Capture Seville
Rush airport in St. Louis

IBT-England drops off spearman, warrior by Aydab

1876(8)-Tell England to leave, kill their units
Lose cossack attacking spear in Zaragoza

IBT-Iroquois, Spain sign embargo
Celts, Iroquois sign peace

1878(9)-Get a GL attacking Medina, lose a cossack trying to kill redline inf
Capture Casa del Bamrapido, Vitoria

IBT-Arabia, Zululand sign peace
Zululand, Vikings sign MPP
Iroquois, England sign trade embargo

1880(10)-capture Medina, Aden, Basra
We now have 8 luxes
Raze Ciudad de la Luna

Notes: Arabia is fading quickly; Spain is pathetic; a marine is on its way to destroy England
Zululand seems to be the most powerful AI, but they lack oil

Here is the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD1880_01.SAV).

Got it - taking a look right now.

Keep up the good work. Concentrate and crush.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD1900_01.SAV

Pre-turn - things look very good. Arabia is broken, our progress should accelerate from here until we are done.

MM a little. Change all scientists to taxmen except for one - no difference in research but a lot more gold.

The dreaded stack of 3 Spanish longbows approaches . Our shorelines get bombarded some. We quell a bunch of resisters.

Turn 1 (1882) - We kill an Arab musket who wanted to pillage our oil. We capture Grenoble from the Arabs. Our tanks shred some Spanish longbows.

IBT - Celts and Arabia sign peace.

Turn 2 (1884) - We capture Valencia and Santiago (with a bunch of slaves) from the Spanish. We raze Liverpool and leave a marine on the island. We have destroyed the fragile English. We take Khurasan and Mansura from the Arabs. We autoraze Suhar.

IBT - Zulu declared on the Japanese - our 2 strongest remaining rivals have decided to make it easier for us.

Turn 3 (1886) - We autoraze Pamplona. Move toward remaining Arab cities.

IBT - A Spanish longbow jumped out of a boat near Kazan which is undefended. There is no way to defend it now - it has no improvements and will be autorazed, so I just abondon it.

Turn 4 (1888) - Abandon Kazan. Autoraze Zaragoza. Captured Bayt Ras and Damascus. Arabia is almost done, so we sign an RoP with the Iroquois - we give them 1 gpt and start moving artillery into their territory.

IBT - Our people want the Battlefield Medicine.

Turn 5 (1890) - Capture Najran and the Great Wall. We disperse a barb camp in the former Spain. Capture Lyons.

Turn 6 (1892) - Investigate Grand River: 4 vet infantry. Tonawanda has 3. Tours has 3. Line up the troops and declare on the Iroquois. Autoraze Neodakeat. Capture Tonawanda and Tours. The artillery did not do enough damage to Grand River, so I don't attack that this turn. I'm leaving Spain's only city until it expands.

IBT - Japan cancels our RoP. I wonder why... they will renew for the right price later.

Turn 7 (1894) - Capture Oswego. Capture Aleppo with Newton's University and the "Glorious" Arabs are eliminated. We picked up another leader in the battle, so we will soon have another tank army.

Turn 8 (1896) - The Zulu discovered Fission. We definitely do not want a UN vote, but they refuse to sell even for Ecology and all our gold. We are at peace with them for 7 more turns so renegotiating peace is not an option. Detroit is our most productive city, and it has a lot of shields in the bank, so I change Detroit to palace. We should get fission ASAP and be sure to build the UN.

We capture Grand River and own Smith's Trading Company.

IBT - Scandanavia and Iroquois sign a trade embargo against us.

Turn 9 (1898) - Nothing of note.

Turn 10 (1900) - Capture Salamanca.

The Zulu have not started the UN yet, and nobody else has fission. There is a prebuild in Detroit for the UN as soon as we can trade for fission (by renegotiating peace in 6 turns if not before).

pre-flight: change some mm around get a few things a turn early at expense of cash. Draft a few units in size 7+ towns with extra food. Disband conscripts to rush tanks or arty. Trade luxuries to Zulu for 67gpt.

IBT - Celts and Zulu sign MPP. Celts declare on Japan. Some shore is bombarded. We build Wall Street. Lots of Celt settlers coming thru.

1902(1) - Capture Allegheny and Niagra Falls, Auto-raze Oiogouen.

1904(2) - Capture and Raze Iroq town. Capture the last Spanish town getting a Leader in the process.

1906(3) - Capture Mauch Chunk - Iroq's down to 2CC.

1908(4) - Sign a MPP with Zulu to try and get Zulu's at war with Celts who are in our territory. It will also get us to war against Japan, but we are ready. I leave out a slave to be attacked.

IBT - The Celts don't take the bait. Japan activates our MPP. They attack a tank and we get a leader who then dies when the tank retreats. London Riots due to fewer lux and I next through the cities to prevent more riots. Zulu's then declare on the Celts.

1910(5) - Destroy a few Celt Infantry and capture 2 settlers. Autoraze a celt town. Bombard two Japanese cities. Capture Kagoshima along with Universal Suffrage. Capture Celtic Lapurdum. Capture Japanese Sapporo.

1912(6) - Raze Tokyo. Capture Celtic Eboracum. Capture Matsuyama. Kagoshima's flip risk is huge, so I abandon it after moving troops past to prevent the flip of Universal Suffrage.

IBT - Gems expire. I will shop around Ecology next turn as Zulu will not sell Fission for any price.

1914(7) - Capture Osaka. Zulu can't afford full price for Ecology, so I hold off. Gems is the only Lux we don't have on our own now.

1916(8) - Kill a Japanese Infantry and get a leader. Abandon Osaka as the flip risk was 10%.

1918(9) - Capture Nagasaki. Capture Agedicum.

IBT - Iroqs and Zulu sign MA vs Celts. Eboracum flips back to celts. We lose an Infantry.

1920 - Raze Centralia. Recapture Eboracum.

Summary - I've been building up cash to try and buy Fission. Our Palace pre-build will run out during Bede's turns, but noone has started UN yet either. We've got a good little airforce that I used to reduce the Iroq capitol over several turns. Japan is tough, they've got more culture than us and the flip risks are huge. I was mainly capturing the cities to give me a better path to the next city. The Artilliary stack is pretty deep in Japanese territory and can bombard their biggest city as well as their source of rubber. I leave it to Bede to determine if we should abandon Eboracum or Agedicum (I left tanks with movement there).

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD1920_01.SAV

Got it.

I think we are past the stage when keeping captured cities do us any good other than shortening the mop-up period.

Will see if a little strong arming will get us to Fission.

I forgot to include in my comments that bombarding has yet to destroy the Iroq capitol barracks. Once we have destroyed that the bombers should be able to redline and destroy the defenders over a couple of turns.

Iroquois and France are gone; Japanese and Celts are gassed. Zulu grow stronger every day.

After five turns of no UN announcement realized that diplomatic victory must be turned off, so used the shields at Detroit for Battlefield Medicine and am now building the Pentagon.

Since I didn't need the cash to buy Fission used it for Marines and airports to finish the Iro and French and take the Vikings off a one tile island (at war with Ragnar due to failed spy mission).

Concentrated the forces on the Japanese as the Celts are no threat and now neither are the Japanese. Lost two tanks taking five Japanese cities, one Celtic town and a Viking town. Rushed settlers on the big island to fill in gaps and support the Japanese advance.

Campaign plan:

Finish Japan then take out the Celts, then turn on the Zulu. To prepare for that we need to make sure every town on the big island has at least two infantry in the garrison.

Japanese End Game;

Concentrate, close off, shell and bomb and attack with 'leet tanks. Raze the towns but have a combat settler waiting to push the borders out. There are bomers in Ebarcorum to support the end of the Japanese offensive and the beginning of the Celtic one.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5_MOTH_1940A.jpg

Celtic opening:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5_1940B.jpg


Same tactics. Move the bombers forward as needed for range.

For the eastern Celts there's a tank army Texococo and assault units in the surrounding towns.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5_MOTH_1940C.jpg

There is no artillery or air force in the east so sweep west to east.

Neither nation has much left in the way of defenders and nothing for offense so the offensives should go without any, or very few, casualties. The big risk is that a lone guerilla or marine slips past the block and takes an undefended town in the north.

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/MOTH_SG005_AD1940_01.SAV)

Rushed settlers on the big island to fill in gaps and support the Japanese advance.

:confused: When were we able to build settlers?

This Months' sponsored variant is OBCC - One Built City Conquest the rules for which are as follows.

1. You may never build a settler.
2. You must win by conquest victory condition.

Not sure what changed. Never say never?

:confused: When were we able to build settlers?

Oh, great balls o' fire. I forgot the durn variant.

Can replay if the team agrees.

:spank: :wallbash: