SGOTM5 - Russia. Game Thread Team Smackster.

Hi everyone, and welcome to the SGOTM5 Game thread.

Note: EVERYONE will have to install the correct resource graphics whether or not they have played SGOTM4.


Here is the start position.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5-starta.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5-startb.jpg

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Russia
World size - Large, 25% land give or take.
Difficulty Regent - but plays harder.
The map is handbuilt, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

Here are a couple of links you might find useful.

The original GOTM23 Announcement. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/gotm23_arabs.shtml)
The Constitution (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1733966&postcount=61)
The GOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=71788)
SGOTM5 Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=105346)

This Months' sponsored variant is OBCC - One Built City Conquest the rules for which are as follows.

1. You may never build a settler.
2. You must win by conquest victory condition.

Checking in!!!
:wavey: MjM!!!

Welcome to the team. Best team in SGOTM league I should say :)

Tell us what on what level of difficulty you feel comfortable to play with and how good you are with micromanagement..

We have a certain Mr. Wotan in our team and I've been under fire quite few times for the luck of micromanagement skills. :)

Oh, and we also like to talk a lot. Should you know in addition to Gold and Green Laurels there is an unofficial Spam Laurel we are always after. Well, at least I am. :mischief:

EDIT: Nobody ever mentioned it, but i take it for granted that we play variant, right?

Checking in, Variant for sure.

Only suggestions are scout to a mountain and if there is something, anything in view, follow it with the worker and settler. Alternative strat is to send each one to its own mountain and see what we have.

Roster

dmanahko (playing)
Tarkeel
smackster
Wotan
MjM

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Am i starting the game????
I will have to call FBI witness protection program, i know you guys will want to kill me after my set of turns.

On a serious note. I suggest not to move neither settler nor worker but only scout. If we move them in to the wrong direction it will take an extra time to get them back. I will suggest to hop with scout on top of each mountain then post the map to the thread for team to discuss what to do next.

It will take total of 5 turns to get to each mountain top.
I am not worry about losing the turns from perspective of winning the game since it is only a regent. But i'd rather worry about competition teams.

Another suggestion. If we see any AI next to us we should settle as close to them as possible. This will help us to capture productive AI cities close to our capital. We can even do a nice early archer rush on regent.

Good morning! OK so we are about to begin another of these adventures.

We have a certain Mr. Wotan in our team and I've been under fire quite few times for the luck of micromanagement skills. :)

Don't scare MjM. ;) I am just an old softy, really!!!

EDIT:
A few points: It is a "doctored" map so we might be in for a few surprises. Since "Mother Russia" is like the fairy tale version of it, icy tundra, we might end up with Moscow founded on a tundra tile, hopefully on a coastal river. So at least the sea tiles will give us 2 fpt and the river save us the cost of an aqueduct.

@Dmanakho. Take the Scout to one of the mountains, SE with a river next to it? If there is something nice there, move Settler and Worker in that direction. Do not wait for all mountains to be checked. Time might be a scarce commodity.

Will move scout to SE mountain and post the map for comments.

If you guys don't mind I'd like to see check-ins and comments on the map from Tarkeel and MJM (or at least wait until monday afternoon) before we start the game.

Tarkeel was MIA since Nov 15th, but hopefully he will show up... Looks like his school is killing him. :)

@Dman, going slowly in the beginning is probably a good idea. A few maps w. discussions before finally founding our city.

BTW, since we will only build a single city in this game and Dman, AFAIK, is of Russian ancestry maybe you want to name the city to something else than the default: Moscow?

Agreed with the plan, move the scout SE to the mountain and post a map. I would hope that M-B would not make this map too lucky, meaning that I think we'll find equal land going to any of the three mountain. So if we see a sniff of anything green SE, then move the settler/worker that way.

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome.

I also agree with moving the scout down SE as it has a river much more eventful then the rest of the land. ;)

I play monarch usually but i can beat emperor so a regent variant seems to fit pretty good.

Also im having a problem , I opened up the Test save MB put out and dont see any animal resources. :confused:

MjM

@MjM: You did DL the scenario pack and unpacked it in civ3ptw scenario folder? And the animal resource is visible in the test file named sgotm4 something also DLable from the same post as the scenariopack.

Edit: We are still missing Tarkeel. He said he would be back in this game but have not been online since the 16th. Shall we wait for him or should Dman start this baby off? We will be rather slow over the first few turns anyway and since it is still sunday for another 6 hours at my end we could be more or less online for opening moves etc.

I unpacked SGOTM resource - blips , SGOTM resource - plain , and SGOTM resource - blips and smiles all from SGOTM 5 into the scenario folder but still dont see it :confused:

edit: it as in the animal resources in the test save.
edit:edit: I think dmanakho should start playing now and maybe put tarkeel at the end of the roster and bump everyone else up?

Edit: We are still missing Tarkeel. He said he would be back in this game but have not been online since the 16th. Shall we wait for him or should Dman start this baby off?

He better be... Hi missed most of the past game.
@Smackster: Could you PM him?? That way he will get an e-mail and will know we are waiting.

Ok, here is the map after moving Scout to the SE mountain
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM54000BCST.jpg


On possible location for the capital is SE from the wheat. But we will have only 4 "green" tiles.


I would hope that M-B would not make this map too lucky, meaning that I think we'll find equal land going to any of the three mountain. So if we see a sniff of anything green SE, then move the settler/worker that way.

I do agree with you 100% on M-B map making.

I am thinking on what other teams are thinking right now... Most of them will probably scout everything around before moving. So I don't think we will lose much of a momentum in this game if we decide to hop on another mountain.
There is another river on the mountain to the east. And I bet there is also a mountain if we go further west...
One thing that concerns me is the map characteristics... It is a large map with only 25% of land mass... Could it be we are on tundra island alone???
Another thought... If we are not alone it would be better for us if we find out where the closest AI is and settle next to it. That way we won't need to do capital flipping and newly captured cities will be productive right away.
That means even if we've postponed building capital at the beginning we will be much better off in a long run comparing to other teams.
Remember, we can't use leaders to rush wonders, including a palace. We will probably have to move our palace later this game to where the land and environment is better

So... I do not advocate running with scout like crazy but i suggest to
do one more mountain hop so we can at least choose between going in 2 different directions.


EDIT: Actually this is what i'd like to do
1st turn. Scout moves straight north to the forest tile. Worker goes one tile west.
2nd turn: Scout moves on top of northern mountain, workers on top of east.
That way we will know all the surroundings in just 2 turns and can make a final decision on where to move settler.



BTW, since we will only build a single city in this game and Dman, AFAIK, is of Russian ancestry maybe you want to name the city to something else than the default: Moscow?

You are correct, i am of russian ancestry, but i wasn't even born in Russia, neither i lived there... I was born and lived in Azerbajian before moving to US.
Anyways, Moscow is fine for me as the name for the capital. :)

If you want to do a 2nd mountain hop then go to the one E E NW I also think we should settle near an AI so we can capture their cities and our troops wont have to go as far.

I think that is a good enough start, so send the worker/settler down there, remember this is only a temporary home, we will palace jump as soon as we capture an AI capital.

Agree with MjM that we move our scout to that mountain to the east.

If we do settle by the wheat we should make a few more scouts to find the AI civ as soon as possible (if there is one :cry: )

I think that is a good enough start, so send the worker/settler down there, remember this is only a temporary home, we will palace jump as soon as we capture an AI capital.

Agree with MjM that we move our scout to that mountain to the east.

How strong do you feel about it???
I'd really feel like using next 2 turns looking at what else we have around those mountains before moving a settler. It's a gambit but it can make a big difference in our game.

I may have screwed up the test save. I think the one you are trying is for SGOTM4 and so looks in the SGOTM4 folder instead of SGOTM5.

Try this one instead. You should see goats to the NE

New test save. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5-testa.SAV)

I agree with Smackster, move Settler/Worker towards Wheat. Make sure any City is placed on a tundra tile with with access to both river and open sea/ocean. The Scout might be best to move E/SE first and the NE/NE onto mountain. We can just as well use all four MPs.

By the look of things right now we seem to move towards a peninsula. Sending the Worker as I suggest might help us a bit to establish this. The tiles SE and SW of the Wheat is possible places to settle in, the SE if it is on shoreline. Just follow the river to see what is revealed.

The test save works thanks Mad-bax :D :) :goodjob:

How strong do you feel about it???
I'd really feel like using next 2 turns looking at what else we have around those mountains before moving a settler. It's a gambit but it can make a big difference in our game.
Reasonably strong, although its partly guesswork obviously. I just feel getting settled quickly is worth it, and that location gives us enough food and shields to build scout, warrior, barracks etc. I haven't worked out an order.

few more turns:
T1. 4000 BC scout SE on the top of the mountain. See wheat and river and BG square. Moved settler and worker towards it

T2. 3950BC Scout E-SE. worker/settler keep moving to the wheat.

T3. 3900BC Scout NE-NE on top of the mountain and i can see a goodie hut. Settler/worker on tile south and we see a new surrounding. Tile SE of wheat was on the lake not shore.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM53900BCSTedited.jpg

Proposed city location is marked with a dot


EDIT: I think it makes okay city location, We have few "green tiles" including forest on top of green, and a hill.
more edits: I never found info on barbarians... If we have sedentary or even roaming barbarians we should build scout then barracks then warriors.. It is only a regent so hapiness is not an issue.
If we have raging barbs then we probably should build a warrior before we have barracks build.
Do we need a granary?? I personally doubt it.
More more edits: Tech research order. I suggest either Wheel or Warrior code on max.

I guess you mean tile SW of Wheat was lake? So the proposed tile is on an ocean shore? If so, go for it! Worker start working on the Wheat?

Settling on the pink dot is the best descision right now.

I guess you mean tile SW of Wheat was lake? So the proposed tile is on an ocean shore? If so, go for it!

That was exactly what i meant... I think i have an issues with left/right east/west... I thought about visiting shrink, but never had time available :)

Please look at the build order and tech research i proposed, i will post another map when i settle and then i will simply finish my 20 turns.

@Smackster: Would you like to change Tarkeel's and Wotan's positions in the roster.. This way Wotan plays next and Tarkeel has some time to show up in time for his turn set.

@Dman, I am off to bed now, 1am! I am sure you will do a good job with the next 17 turns. No need for me to add anything at this stage, the first few turns though until we found a decent spot to settle in was great to be able to follow.

T4. 3850BC. Crap. My mouse...well... i am too nervous.. :blush: instead of popping a hut i moved the scout to nearby mountain...
settler/worker go SE.

T5. 3800BC. Worker on the wheat, settler on pink dot tile, scout popped the hut and gave as pottery.

T6. 3750BC Moscow is founded, worker is set to irrigate wheat. nice we have game and fish in city limits, and also hill and 2BGs.

Picture will be posted in few minutes

Let's talk about the build order and tech research.
Here picture comes
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM53750BCST.jpg

I Think a 2nd scout would be good since on regent its 2 content citizens and reasearch warrior code maybe?

Looks like a great city location, plenty of food and shields for our task at hand.

I'm thinking, another scout (3 total), warrior, barracks.

T6. So it is 3750BC. Moscow -> Scout.
Warrior Code at max 90% in 18 turns

T7 3700BC :sleep:
T8 3650BC :sleep:

T9 3600BC worker Irrigated wheat->road

T10 3550BC :sleep:

T11 3500BC scout pops hut we get CB

T12 3450BC worker moves to BG

T13 3400BC worker mines bg

T14 3350BC :sleep:
T15 3300BC :sleep:
T16 3250BC Moscow expands.
T17 3200BC Moscow scout->warrior

T18 3150BC Scout pops an eqWorker from goodie hut

T19 3100BC lux slider up 10%. worker roads BG, science slider down to 80%

T20 3050BC Getting another eqWorker from a goodie hut. Moscow warrior->barracks. Lux slider down to 0%.

Map:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sgotm53050BCST.JPG


Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Smackster_SG005_BC3050_01.SAV)


It really looks like we are alone on island... That means i chose wrong tech and should have went for wheel->map making instead. (sorry, i meant writing->map making) But next player should be able to tell for sure what kind of map it is.
SInce i popped extra workers we have too many units at the moment and paying unit support. We will have to disband scouts as soon as we finish exploration. I must admit it is nice to have 3 full strength workers so early, we will be able to improve tiles in no time.

Since Tarkeel isnt here and probaly isnt coming back soon whos next?

What a mess of a map, our location looks as good as it gets and we got there as quickly as can be.

I PM'd Tarkeel, so I'll modify the roster

Roster
Dmanakho (just played)
Wotan (up)
smackster
MjM
Tarkeel (waiting for sign in)

WC will be ready in 2 turns, if this is an island which i am starting to believe
we wil have to research at maximum towards Map making ASAP and set sail high seas.
That also means we will probably have to build Great Lighthouse, but that we will find out when we reveal all of the shore lines.

And here is the image for the team amusement from F10 screen...
We have few too many opponents :). We are going to have 15 opponents on only 25% of landmass and our presumably island will take 10 to 15 persent of that total landmass... Can you imagine how dense AIs civilizations are going to be??? :scan:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/gotm5spacerace.JPG

Does Russia start with alphabet?

@MjM: Good one! Usually it doesn't start with alphabet.
Russia starts with pottery, but in this game we have alphabet instead of pottery.
I bet you that is a clue M-B gives us.

I have had a second thought on Great Lighthouse comment (and on any other wonder). If we are on the island and even if we are not we are going to move capital because this place sucks. The only way to move capital in this game is by abandoning an old one, since we can't use leaders in this game.
Therefore building any wonders in Moscow does not make any sense.

Good morning, 6 am! Will play right away before RL demands my attention... ;) Well played Dman, nice city location!

@Wotan: :eek: you hardly had any sleep last night.. I am still awake, going off to be though.. It is 12:21AM here and another working day tomorrow.

here is the quote from M-B in maintenance forum:


I thought quite carefully about what information to release prior to the start of the game. Barb levels and whether the map was continents, pangea or islands were two parameters that were quite difficult to decide about. In the end I decided to let you find out for yourselves.

Awesome maybe if Smackster stays up and plays his turns after Wotan I can play tonight :D (wishful thinking)

I'm still up, but going to bed now. Its probably worth waiting a little bit of time to work out more on our strategy.

Certainly agree with Writing->Map Making

I also agree with Writing > MM , i cant think of anything else to add except finish exploring our land. ( My chances of playing tonight are out the window :cry: )

Made it, before going to the office!

@MjM: the geography is playing out well for Team Smackster, Two Scandinavians at GMT+1, Two east coasters at GMT-5 and you as our new west coaster at GMT-8. In previous SGOTMs we have at times managed to "play around the clock" quite successfully!

OK, here goes:

Turn log

-1 – 3050BC Pre-flight
Looks good, hit return.

0 – 3000BC
Shave another point off research now at 70% and finish in one.

1 – 2950BC
WC kicks in, switch to Writing, finished in 24 turns. Disband one Scout, we have way too many for our economy to remain healthy.

2 – 2900BC
Another Scout disbanded when it reach “land’s end”

3 – 2850BC
Moscow grows to 4, 10% lux.

4 – 2800BC
GH spotted!

5 – 2750BC
GH popped, The Wheel! We have Horses on the Hill near Moscow!!! :) Switch the Barracks to a Temple to rush time until we have Furs within City borders.

6 – 2710BC
Nada

7 – 2670BC
Nada

8 – 2630BC
Moscow grows to size 5. Lux to 20%.

9 – 2590BC
Moscow builds Temple, Barracks started.

10 – 650AD
I discover a land route to the “Mountain GH”.

After action report:
Writing in 12 turns, will require some MMing on the Science slider. Building a Military unit after Barracks will help us with lux.

Two Workers will finish their tasks after this turn. Am not too sure we should build a Colony on the Furs, border expansion is in 17 turns, just road it in preparation for culture expansion. So would suggest using any surplus workers to merge with Moscow after it reaches size 7. Maybe we need to hold one worker for a possible Iron Colony later?

BTW, EqWorkers??? Isn’t that what workers in Civ3 are called when playing Gotm’s ported to PTW standard? Do we have the correct save?

Map is somewhat uneventful! Will hopefully pickup after MM!

Firaxis: 48

Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Smackster_SG005_BC2550_01.SAV)

I have added another member to your team since you are not sure to have 5 players yet IIRC.
Please welcome tomasjj :)

Hi Everyone. :)
Teamworker signing in.
Will read through the tread when I get home from work in 5 hours time.

JJ

I'm here :) Not my fault that you guys are so impatient and have managed 50 posts in a day already ;)

JJ: What part of this oh-so-lovely-but-cold country?

Nice turns.

So, are we alone on tundra island?

Made it, before going to the office!

@MjM: the geography is playing out well for Team Smackster, Two Scandinavians at GMT+1, Two east coasters at GMT-5 and you as our new west coaster at GMT-8. In previous SGOTMs we have at times managed to "play around the clock" quite successfully!

Actually, 3 Scandinavians :) Welcome to the team TomasJJ... :wavey:
You and Tarkeel are kind of next door neighbours.

I reckon, We need to inject TomasJJ between 2 american players.




BTW, EqWorkers??? Isn’t that what workers in Civ3 are called when playing Gotm’s ported to PTW standard? Do we have the correct save?

Map is somewhat uneventful! Will hopefully pickup after MM!



3. All Starting workers are now called eqWorker in both versions of the software. Eqworkers cannot be bought, sold or disbanded. Eqworkers cannot be built. The standard Worker has not changed in any respect, and has exactly the same functionality as in 1.29f.

I'm here :) Not my fault that you guys are so impatient and have managed 50 posts in a day already ;)

JJ: What part of this oh-so-lovely-but-cold country?

well, you know us :blush: we always were so impatient..
Welcome back Tarkeel, really good to see you, and you are just in time :)

@Smackster: You will really need to reshape the roster now :)

and as a matter of fact it is a good time to talk about next 50+ turns before we get map making and galleys and explore surroundings.
I was thinking.... i am not sure what kind of builds to do in Moscow...

Military -> our economy won't be able to sustain both paying for unit support and fast research. We've got to have fast research we know it.
Wonders -> useless waste of time since we will abandon Moscow as soon as it is makes sense.
Wealth -> Maybe just wealth after building an additional unit or two to protect against possible barbs.

Any thoughts?

I reckon, We need to inject TomasJJ between 2 american players.
That would put him between you and MjM then... I believe Smackster is an englishman? :)

@Tarkeel, good to have you back!

@Tomasjj, welcome to the team.

Military -> our economy won't be able to sustain both paying for unit support and fast research. We've got to have fast research we know it.
Wonders -> useless waste of time since we will abandon Moscow as soon as it is makes sense.
Wealth -> Maybe just wealth after building an additional unit or two to protect against possible barbs.

Any thoughts?

Not much to add to this, I agree with you...

That would put him between you and MjM then... I believe Smackster is an englishman? :)


I thought he was an Aussie living in Boston... :)

Wotan: he's a Brit in exile, so he's on US schedule :)

It is a pretty harsh start.. So hard to comment too much on it.

Wotan: he's a Brit in exile, so he's on US schedule :)

That was my point! Britons tend to be a bit put off when called americans... ;) The Colonies and all that... :D

(JK) :lol:

Yes I am English, living in the US.

Welcome tomasjj, what level do you play at? and for that matter, ....
MjM what level do you play at?

Although, this is far from a normal game.

I was wondering at that temple build, but I think it was probably right, no point paying for barracks costs now, and no point starting to build up our army. I would suggest we keep our unit support at minimum until we are have a better idea where we are going.

I would imagine that we will find our first victim, within galley reach, and that will give us a trading advantage so that we can gather cash. I suggest there is no point building archers. We should attack with horsemen and swords, but don't build them yet.

That was my point! Britons tend to be a bit put off when called americans... ;) The Colonies and all that... :D

(JK) :lol:
I still think of America as a part of the colonies. People here try to tell me about some revolutionary war, but I refuse to accept it. In fact I'm here as a spy trying to incite a cultural revolution back to England :lol:

Military -> our economy won't be able to sustain both paying for unit support and fast research. We've got to have fast research we know it.
Wonders -> useless waste of time since we will abandon Moscow as soon as it is makes sense.
Wealth -> Maybe just wealth after building an additional unit or two to protect against possible barbs.

Military-> Agreed, just build up to our support level until we make the big push. If we make enough cash from trading then, warrior->sword upgrade may be the best bet. I assume we can get Moscow to 10 shields/turn. Which would give us 10 swords in 10 turns. That said we don't have the luxury to build horses then.
Wonders -> Agreed, enough said
Wealth -> Agreed, after the barracks, build warriors up to the unit support value and then wealth. We need a galley ASAP, so unless we get MM from the AI we should time research with a galley pre-build. This is important

Roster

dman
Wotan (just played)
smackster (got it)
MjM (on deck)
Tarkeel

I will insert tomasjj next time round, between myself and MjM. I don't want to change the roster at this late time for this round. Note with this team, next time round is in about 2 days. I should have my turns done before 8.30pm EST, so plenty of time for MjM to do his tonight.

smackster

We need a galley ASAP, so unless we get MM from the AI we should time research with a galley pre-build. This is important

By the time we have MM I guess estimate moscow will build galleys in 2-3 turns.
We must have more than one galley (3 at least) for faster exploration even if that means paying for unit support

I still think of America as a part of the colonies. People here try to tell me about some revolutionary war, but I refuse to accept it. In fact I'm here as a spy trying to incite a cultural revolution back to England :lol:

Hear, hear! But isn't culture and America sort of a contradiction in terms? Maybe since you live in Boston you do have some remnants of it around you... :D

OTOH, the level of freedom of choice and freedom to pursue your own destiny is way better in America than it is back here in Sweden. We are after all living under the yoke of the worlds highest taxes and a political climate that is not far behind what people behind the iron curtain used to endure... :sad:

We are after all living under the yoke of the worlds highest taxes and a political climate that is not far behind what people behind the iron curtain used to endure... :sad:

Is that really so?????

IMHO, situation in America with freedoms has worsened significantly since Bush came to power... Many people simply not ready to tell their opinions because they will be finger pointed at and labeled "not-patriotic" etc. etc.
It especially feels so in southern red (republican) states.

Military-> Agreed, just build up to our support level until we make the big push. If we make enough cash from trading then, warrior->sword upgrade may be the best bet. I assume we can get Moscow to 10 shields/turn. Which would give us 10 swords in 10 turns. That said we don't have the luxury to build horses then.

With the final grassland mined we will generate 10 shields wo using any 1 fpt tiles.

We need a galley ASAP, so unless we get MM from the AI we should time research with a galley pre-build. This is important
I checked the cost of MM and it is 288 shields according to CivAssist. So, unless we can generate at least 10gpt after lux and unit support we might as well pursue it with a 10% science setting or a scientist.

ÉDIT:And if we go for 40 turns research into MM we might as well build a "pile" of units, Chariots and Warriors, ready for upgrading and a "blitzkrieg" vs. the closest neighbour. If so, the Barracks should be finished. I have timed the clearing of a forest to coincide with the Barracks build. If you decide to abandon the barracks be advised the forest is finishing now!

Hear, hear! But isn't culture and America sort of a contradiction in terms? Maybe since you live in Boston you do have some remnants of it around you... :D

Boston is tough as there is some local culture here, according to MapStat the UK culture is about twice that of the US, but evens out with the relative distance of the capitals. Couple that with the big military base here and there doesn't appear to be much of a flip chance :crazyeye:


OTOH, the level of freedom of choice and freedom to pursue your own destiny is way better in America than it is back here in Sweden. We are after all living under the yoke of the worlds highest taxes and a political climate that is not far behind what people behind the iron curtain used to endure... :sad:
What are your tax rates at these days.

With the final grassland mined we will generate 10 shields wo using any 1 fpt tiles.


Don't have Civ to check, but can't we bump Moscow pop and work on 1fpt hill and forest tiles to bump production above 10spt for faster research/build.
don't really believe in this idea myself but how long time does it take to build collossus? may be it will be beneficial after all to get all this extra commerce for the short run instead of producing wealth.

By the time we have MM I guess estimate moscow will build galleys in 2-3 turns.
We must have more than one galley (3 at least) for faster exploration even if that means paying for unit support
You may be right, but still we want to shave off every turn we can in getting our galleys out.

With the final grassland mined we will generate 10 shields wo using any 1 fpt tiles.


I checked the cost of MM and it is 288 shields according to CivAssist. So, unless we can generate at least 10gpt after lux and unit support we might as well pursue it with a 10% science setting or a scientist.
You mean beakers of course, Wow there are going to be some very quiet turns until then.

Don't have Civ to check, but can't we bump Moscow pop and work on 1fpt hill and forest tiles to bump production above 10spt for faster research/build.
don't really believe in this idea myself but how long time does it take to build collossus? may be it will be beneficial after all to get all this extra commerce for the short run instead of producing wealth.
If its 40 turns to get MM then we might as well use those 40 turns for something useful.

Check the settings then, maybe it will be a better idea to build collosus even before barracks to get extra commerce earlier. :undecide:

Check the settings then, maybe it will be a better idea to build collosus even before barracks to get extra commerce earlier. :undecide:
I agree, just 200 shields, I'm going to switch. Comments from the rest?

What are your tax rates at these days.
I am almost too embarrassed to say... Income tax: 53-58% on an average income ($30.000) add another 35% of the gross income paid by the employer (also salary you do not recieve, in my book) in social services costs, so for you to recieve $13.500 the employer have to cough up roughly $40.000. And finally 25% sales tax on virtually every thing you use, buy or consume.

Check the settings then, maybe it will be a better idea to build collosus even before barracks to get extra commerce earlier. :undecide:
Great idea! The income will really make a difference.

I agree, just 200 shields, I'm going to switch. Comments from the rest?

Do not switch right away! The forest "chop" will finish NOW! So if you switch the 10 shields will be wasted.

Do not switch right away! The forest "chop" will finish NOW!

it won't be possible to switch to wonder after forrest chopping, so barracks will have to be completed 1st.

I am almost to embarrassed to say... Income tax: 53-58% on an average income ($30.000) add another 35% of the gross income paid by the employer (also salary you do not recieve, in my book) in social services costs, so for you to recieve $13.500 the employer have to cough up roughly $40.000. And finally 25% sales tax on virtually every thing you use, buy or consume.
That is tough. I have never minded taxing the rich (unless its me), but that high for the average income is hard to justify. Although we have sales tax here in Boston, just across the border in New Hampshire, its 0% sales tax.

it won't be possible to switch to wonder after forrest chopping, so barracks will have to be completed 1st.
Got it, but this is certainly a great idea Dman. You get civ star of the day award for that.

That is tough. I have never minded taxing the rich (unless its me), but that high for the average income is hard to justify. Although we have sales tax here in Boston, just across the border in New Hampshire, its 0% sales tax.
Sorry, about my example, the income I used for that tax bracket should be a bit higher, I was thinking in £ not $, so it would be, for an income of approx. $50.000, not $30.000...

I always knew taxes in Sweden were high, but now I can feel how high they are...
Taxes in US are much lower, but we have other "hidden" fees like medical insurance coverage, individual retirement account, college savings for kids.

For example i am paying almost $400 a month to cover my wife (she is a student and does not work) and son with health insurance while company provides my own coverage.
EDIT: Plus taxes in US are greatly depend on which state you are live in.
Each state has different income taxes brakes and some states don't have income taxes at all. (Texas or Florida).

@Team: Maybe we should switch to Archer or spear to avoid wasting forest shields.. That will give us another MP in moscow and might bring lux slider down a little. We won't really need barracks for a long time and we don't want to pay barracks maintenance while we don't need it.
On regent level we don't need vereran units to fight barbarians if we worry on protecting Moscow borders against them, regulars will do just fine.

Yes, switch to an Archer! Then start building the Colossus.

Whew I wake up and we get a new teammate and 35 more posts ;)

I agree with building a archer than collossus , we need that extra cash. Also what is the lux slider at right now?

I will try to play my turns tonight might be doing something if I cant do them tonight I will wake up early and do them tomorrow.\

edit: Sorry , Welcome tomasjj :wavey:

@MjM.... Eastern time morning hours is usually the time when Team Smackster discusses all the game related issues :) .

@Smackster - I play Monarch most of the time but started on emperor bout 1 week ago.

@Smackster - I play Monarch most of the time but started on emperor bout 1 week ago.
How did those Emporer games go? One area that you may get involved with in this game is serious tech trading, and this is something that is an art in Emporer/Deity games. As we can't research well, our trading has to be perfect to maximise tech and gold.

I suggest for the new guys you both don't hesitate to take a couple of days over your moves (once we get contacts that is) and make sure you are confident about trading with the AI. If unsure at any point, just stop and post, there is usually somebody on-line who can give advice.

smackster

Note that we currently have a comfortable lead the Spam laurel, that is one laurel that we take particular pride in

There is one team who is always a deadly serious competitor for the Spam Laurel... Their name shall not be spoken but for those who are not afraid of them it is the XTeam.

Here is the statistics for SGOTM4 from their team's thread:


As a little exercise in extracting data from the forum pages, I did a statistics run on posts per turn played for each SGOTM4 team:

Xteam - 2.33
offa - 1.84
Smackster - 1.55
Bugsy - 1.20
jeffelammar - 1.08
Staff - 1.00
Bede - 0.96
Peanut - 0.78
alamo - 0.78
Grayarea - 0.66
Tone - 0.66
tao - 0.64
Ivan - 0.41

These numbers don't include posts by lurkers or MB, only team players.

If unsure at any point, just stop and post, there is usually somebody on-line who can give advice.


that is actually a great advice and not just for the new members of the team...
We always do that. One head with brain is good but two or more is better. :)

There is one team who is always a deadly serious competitor for the Spam Laurel... Their name shall not be spoken but for those who are not afraid of them it is the XTeam.

Here is the statistics for SGOTM4 from their team's thread:
I think the different victory conditions changed the stats, as the conquest teams had more to talk about. For much of our 20k game, there really wasn't much to discuss.

Most went great only one went bad ( I was portugal ) and I couldnt stop the AI from winning diplomacilly. One that im almost done with is a huge pangea with 80% water as China I have about half of the continent in 1400 Ad's. And one that I have just started is aurond 200 Ad as byzantines on a 80% pelago map which I am doing pretty good , ahead in techs. I'd say im ok at emperor but need to play a few more to be comforabtle staying there.

And I will probaly be able to play tonight.

Everyone,
Thanks for the greetings.

Currently I play at emperor level, but have been flirting with demigod a couple of times too.

Scanning the thread now... to be up to date...
Will be back with some ideas tomorrow :)

JJ

It appears that all our units, conscript, popped or whatever count towards unit costs. So I popped a warrior and he now counts as a unit, normally they are free right? So I had to disband him.

Everyone,
Thanks for the greetings.

Currently I play at emperor level, but have been flirting with demigod a couple of times too.

Scanning the thread now... to be up to date...
Will be back with some ideas tomorrow :)

JJ

Note this is PTW, so no Demigod. Actually you can play these games with C3C, but if you do the save will be invalid and will have to be done again so watch out for that.

Posts really fly by here...
As for difficulty, keep in mind that this is PTW. I find that Conquests is usually one level easier then PTW, IE DemiGod Conquests is about emperor PTW. This is mainly because the very lax (broken) barbs, and the lack of early comm trading for the AIs.

T0 2550BC

From what I see we should not chop anymore forests inside our radius after this one, the city will grow to use them all, I think.

T1 2510BC

Worker chops forest and the archer completes. Worker finishes road. Will work the last green, and then road to the furs and colonise as that seems like it will get us most for now

Collossus in 29, but growth in 2 and only 7 shields right now. Archer allows us to push happiness to 0%

T2 2470BC

Scout pops a hut and gives us a damn warrior, should have been a settler.

Notice that all the popped units are counted in unit support, that warrior I just popped is so far from home and will be disbanded then. Hopefully settlers are turned off somehow as anybody getting one will have a major advantage

T3 2430BC
Moscow grows and gets Collossus in 21 now, Disband warrior. Slider 2.7.1 to keep us from going bankrupt and researching.

T4 2390BC

T5 2350BC
I get the impression there are no barbs in this game, or no random ones
Worker complete mine on horse hill, will road it. The forest on the river gives the same value as that hill.

T6 2310BC
T7 2270BC
T8 2230BC
Worker completes road on deer, that helps us to get writing in 4 now. He moves to furs, as Moscow will expand in 9, he will road the furs and not build a colony or it will be gone when it expands with no rad
Worker completes mine on grass->road

T9 2190BC
I make the executive decision to colonies the furs, we have completed most of our worker that matter, and that will give us the furs now and save us the unit costs.

T10 2150BC
Looks like there is a road to the furs, so I'm not sure what happens when it expands, maybe we get a free road

Scout is still wandering around trying to get another hut. Writing in 2 at +1, but should be able to turn down next turn. Need to watch that slider

Moscow is MM'd off the fish, as the extra commerce only goes to happiness and it doesn't need it. That gives us Collossus in 10.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sg5.jpg

score 56

Posts really fly by here...
As for difficulty, keep in mind that this is PTW. I find that Conquests is usually one level easier then PTW, IE DemiGod Conquests is about emperor PTW. This is mainly because the very lax (broken) barbs, and the lack of early comm trading for the AIs.
The broken barbs in Conq seems to be fixed now. Add a line to the .ini file as per Cotm6 announcement page.

Important for MjM

We are getting 11 sci per turn, which would give us MM in about 28, with Collossus in 10 turns, I strongly suggest we continue to research MM at maximum and not at 10%.

Roster

dman
Wotan
smackster (just played)
MjM (playing)
Tarkeel (on deck)

Ok I can play right now.

Good turns, the only thing I have a different opinion re. is the use of a Worker to colonize the furs. I would rather have joined it to Moscow after roading the furs. Moscow built the Temple mainly for this not to be necessary as it would expand fairly quickly. An extra pop in Moscow OTOH takes 10-40 turns (no granary) depending on how food is utilized...

Next 10 turns: After Writing, shall we go 40 turns on MM or max science? Max science would probably make it available in 25-30 turns at 288 beakers. The Colossus will help out a bit after 10 turns, but we could have a nice pile of gold to trade with if going "40 turns".

EDIT: At 11gpt prior to Colossus we go "max science", I agree with Smackster (and also on the Micro managing issue, with only one city not tuning all sliders and checking optimum placement of citizens each turn is a "capital offence". Consider yourself warned! ;)

The turns are pretty quick, but take care to micro manage each turn, as there is a bit to do.

Good turns, the only thing I have a different opinion re. is the use of a Worker to colonize the furs. I would rather have joined it to Moscow after roading the furs. Moscow built the Temple mainly for this not to be necessary as it would expand fairly quickly. An extra pop in Moscow OTOH takes 10-40 turns (no granary) depending on how food is utilized...

Next 10 turns: After Writing, shall we go 40 turns on MM or max science? Max science would probably make it available in 25-30 turns at 288 beakers. The Colossus will help out a bit after 10 turns, but we could have a nice pile of gold to trade with if going "40 turns".
Yes, joining would have probably been better, but its too late.

I think we should research at max. I think we can get it in less than 20 turns taking into account Colossus.

I also think we should reaserch it at max for reasons already stated.

edit:where is the archer in the screenie?

Does anyone have an explanation for the unit support for popped units?

@Smackster: Good turns and i believe conscript units popped from huts always count and never free. edit: only slaves are free

Yes, Research MM on maximum please...
What kind of m-management is required around Moscow at this point?

1. Check science slider and luxury slider every turn to make sure we do not overpay on science and Moscow doesn't riot.
2. Do we need to shuffle citizens across the tiles?

As far as I can recall it from earlier games I have disbanded popped Warriors before to avoid paying support for distant loners.

See my edit above re. research, I agree "max science" we will probably have it in less than 25 turns and that decides it. We need to find someone to trade with and then plunder.

EDIT: when the worker roading the tile next to Moscow finishes we should join it to Moscow. A single worker is enough for us in the near future and any future Workers needed should hopefully be "slaves".

EDIT2: @MjM, game preferences are probably set not to show units in cities, you can change that when you open the save if you want to.

Something is wrong with the graphic in this town.. :)
I was like ..."I dont see garrison on the picture", loaded the save and no units in moscow... right click and i can see W and A... waking them up they are visible, fortify them back and they dissapear from view :crazyeye:


EDIT: when the worker roading the tile next to Moscow finishes we should join it to Moscow. A single worker is enough for us in the near future and any future Workers needed should hopefully be "slaves".

I was about to suggest the same but after worker roads forest tile across the river, that will give us an extra commerce, but i haven't calculated if that extracommerce will bring us anything. The problem with joining worker to moscow now is that we will have to turn lux slider up a notch so there is a trade off right there... but again i can't calculate all the shields/commerce right now.

Does anyone else see borders south of the furs by the silk in that sceernie?

Does anyone else see borders south of the furs by the silk in that sceernie?

If so, send the scout south to patrol the coastline and hopefully a unit will show up and make contact possible.

@Dman, as in my edit on last page, change game preferences, I might have (or Smackster) unchecked one box too many when I opened up the save. I know from past SGOTMs we have different favorite settings.

OK, 1am, time to make some Zzzz ;)

If so, send the scout south to patrol the coastline and hopefully a unit will show up and make contact possible.

@Dman, as in my edit on last page, change game preferences, I might have (or Smackster) unchecked one box too many when I opened up the save. I know from past SGOTMs we have different favorite settings.
Not me I take what I'm given, even if I have to watch 100 friendly AI graphics wander by

When do you think you can post the save Smackster?

Check the SGOTM submissions page for the save. That is the place to find and return the game save after each player. Some of us do post it in this thread too but that is not mandatory.

EDIT: it is there, I checked it now.

Any comments on my concerns adding a worker to the capital?


@MjM: You can add this to the list of your favorites:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php

I was about to suggest the same but after worker roads forest tile across the river, that will give us an extra commerce, but i haven't calculated if that extracommerce will bring us anything. The problem with joining worker to moscow now is that we will have to turn lux slider up a notch so there is a trade off right there... but again i can't calculate all the shields/commerce right now.
Even if the added pop will make people less happy, turning him into an entertainer/scientist/"the third type/gold generator" will lower our support cost so no real problem. And an entertainer will keep another two pop OK so we win in any case.

Got it playing right now. :D

Here it goes:

Turn 1 - Join worker to Moscow , change it to entertainer , raise science to 90 % making +1 gpt. Scout goes N NW

Turn 2 - Worker goes to forest , Scout SW , E

Turn 3 - Scout NE , worker starts on road.

Turn 4 - Scout NW , N

Turn 5 - Scout SW

Turn 6 - Scout SE , S

Turn 7 - Scout S
IT: Moscow expands
Turn 8 - Scout SE , E
IT: Worker completes road.
Turn 9 - Worker goes W , W , to tundra , Scout SE , S

Turn 10 - Scout S , E , worker starts mining on tundra.

Collossus is complete in 1 turn which after we should build a galley follow by another galley (even if it is unit support). MM has 16 or 15 turns left and I have really no clue what to reaserch next. Most of our island seems to be explored. The 'borders" I thought I saw was just the graph :mad: . Not much happening right now , that will change when we finnaly make our first galley.

Edit: Grr :mad: I only played 9 turns just checked SGOTM page it seems must have counted the end of the turn Smackster played. :mad:

Good... We will have collosus and more money for research
Don't worry about miss-calculation with the turns...
It happens often... It will be useful though if you posted dates together with turns... It helps everyone to visualize timeline. It will also help you with the better turn management...
In SGOTM3 i posted entire turn-table, i will find that post and re-post it here.

Here it is.
I only now noticed i played 19 turns instead of 20 myself.


Turn 0 => 4000 BC then 50 years per turn until ...
Turn 25 => 2750 BC then 40 years per turn until ...
Turn 50 => 1750 BC then 25 years per turn until ...
Turn 90 => 750 BC then 20 years per turn until ...
Turn 140 => 250 AD then 10 years per turn until ...
Turn 240 => 1250 AD then 5 years per turn until ...
Turn 340 => 1750 AD then 2 years per turn until ...
Turn 440 => 1950 AD then 1 year per turn until ...
Turn 540 => 2050 AD

SG change-overs:

Turn 0 => 4000 BC
Turn 20 => 3000 BC
Turn 30 => 2550 BC
Turn 40 => 2150 BC
Turn 50 => 1750 BC then every 250 years until ...
Turn 90 => 750 BC then every 200 years until ...
Turn 140 => 250 AD then every 100 years until ...
Turn 240 => 1250 AD then every 50 years until ...
Turn 340 => 1750 AD then every 20 years until ...
Turn 440 => 1950 AD then every 10 years until ...
Turn 540 => 2050 AD

Triple post :blush:
I am going for the Spam Laurel :crazyeye:
Loaded the save...

@MjM. You didn't have to order worker to mine tundra... It should be stopped and sent to road tundra forest across the river instead.

We can kill our scout... We don't need to pay a unit support since we explored an entire island already... That will give us a free 1st galley.

@Tarkeel. Would you play 11 turns to make this even our turn out dates. Your last turn should be 1500BC.

After Collosus is built we can convert clown into the citizen and place on tundra forest. Push lux 10%... We will shave on turn of MM with -1gpt (total 11 turns), having 13 gold we will have just enough to get it going. Put Moscow on producing wealth that will make 0GPT . We don't need to pay barracks maintenance sooner than we really need. 2 or 3 turns before MM is researched start pre-building galley to synch with research of MM (as per Smackster's suggestion). It will happen on your last turn and next player will start from there. In this game every turn counts. I am afraid team Offa will be our main competitor.

We should build few galleys (3 to scout, more later to transport troops) then barracks and while galleys research surrounding start pumping units. We really want to move out of this deadly island ASAP. I would recommend shutdown research after MM. We will get what we can with trading and it's only a regent, i would not worry much about research. We will need all the money for unit support.

EDIT: I can see very promising shore north of our island... There is also an some kind of tundra land with silks south from us and really close, but for some reasons i don't trust tundra... Don't think it's habitable :)

MORE EDITS: Having 4th post in a row would be too much even for me... So i will just edit this message...
Congratulations to Smackster and Wotan for good results in GOTM36. 7th and 10th place respectfully. I am on the lousy 29th position for my denial to use RoP rape, which made me to loose zillions of cavalry while taking 12 pop Indian cities defended by infantry.

Good turns MjM, I meant to post that there certainly werent any foreign borders on that map, guess you found out.

We should not stop research, we need IW so that we can see if we have iron and can build swords.

Apart from that I agree with Dman's post, apart from in GOTM36 I didn't do any ROP raping either.

Good turns! Just stop the Worker from mining and move him to a forest to road it. IW is our next priority! Hopefully we will be able to get something out of MM when trading.

Will have a look at the save later today and post any comments.

I did no ROP raping in Gotm36, have never done it actually. And I am a bit surprised I ended up as high as in 10th place. I was actually in a bad spot at about 300AD with precious little time so rushed the final 50 turns with little or no regard to MMing and strategy. Just moving units towards frontline and building knights and caravels.

EDIT: @MjM, pleace put year in turn summary it is easier to follow then both for us and for you. As you will know what year to finish on...

Phew...
So now I am up to date here. I must say - good job! Not much I disagree upon here. I am glad you settled straight away - no time to loose.

This is my first succesion game and I am really looking forward to it. However, I am not sure I will be able to follow this tempo, playing 24/7. But I will definately report in and post when I wont be able to do my turns quickly. That way we can keep the flow of the game. (Just to tell you straight away, I am committed. Although, I am going to London this weekend, so I wont be able to play then...)

Some quick questions:

Micro-managing: I do some, particularly checking the last couple of turns before completing a build, just to avoid shields wasted. Also, naturally, check the sliders for research and lux all the time. As for specialists, I do use them occasionally. But here there is definately room for improvement, so any instructions would be appreciated here.
@Wotan: you are the expert on micro-m so please feel free to instruct when needed.

As for research: IW is needed before we are ready to start building our army.
No need to start building warriors if no iron :)

That silk to the south feels like a magnet, you people that know the mapmaker, any chance that he put a GH there for us to pop with a settler? Just a thought....but I havent seen a screen in a while here so I might not be up to date. At work now, so I will look at the save when I get home.

ROP-rape: never will do that. Consider it unethical, although I dont condemn other who do it.

Since one of the team-members will most probably be online, I will not hesitate to ask for advice :)

Also, when is the deadline for completion of this game?

JJ

And, I forgot:

Regarding the demigod issue: dont worry.
I will play the PTW version.
I just refered to the levels in conquests as thats what I play these days.

JJ

Tomas: Download and use MapStat :) It will save you a lot of hassle. Also check if you can trade shields for gold and still complete in same time. It doesn't take that long when we have so few cities.

Deadline isn't an issue really. About 2 months from now.

Rest: I got it, but will play it only later to allow some more comments, and get myself into it as well :)

Well, I usually check if I can complete a build at the same pace and switch shields for gold.

I will see what mapstat does, but I am not that keen on using stuff like civassist and so on. I do agree that it is a help, but prefer to play without those programs.

Yep, forgot about IW....
we sure need it...
But if we start building units soon after MM we won't be able to keep science slider as high as it is now...
So if we start IW on 80-90% it will gradually go down... I hope on possible trades with AIs to get IW sooner.

EDIT: There are few possibilities on iron:
1. within city limits, but how likely is that????
2. we have it somewhere on the island so we have to build a road and establish colony and use a unit to protect it from barbs. @MjM: Have you seen any barbs???
3. Iron does not exist on our island and we can only rely on horses, thus we will have to research horseback riding as well.

EDIT: RoP in GOTM36.. I was actually going to use it myself against french, but Indians backstabbed me in the last moment, so my last war was against India and they had infantry at that time. It took me probably 5 times as long to win fighting India as if it was large but weak France.

Regarding the choice between IW and swordsmen or HBR and horsemen.

We have no guarantee that we will have iron (but I would be surprised if the mapmakers were that cruel), and then researching IW that the AI most probably will have doesnt help us + has no trade value.
Valuable beakers/gold could be wasted. (And we will need to trade for HBR)

I am not saying that we should opt for horsemen, since we got horses, but darn it would be beat if we dont have iron.

My guess is we will be ok anyway :)

OK have looked at the save. A few things needed.

1. Stop mining the tundra and get the worker to the "river" forest and build a road in it.
2. Lux raised to 10%, then put the entertainer on the fish tile and the "forest" citizen on the lake tile. We gain 3fpt, 2 more beakers to finish MM in 12 (14 now) and will still produce the 10 shields needed to finish the Colossus. -1 gold but that is no problem since we will change to "wealth" when the Colossus is built.

Re. use of "tools". I run CivAssist and CRpMapstat in the background all the time. Indispensable in my opinion. Especially for checking against revolts, no locations should ever go into unrest if you use them (maybe a few conquered locations before they are rid of all "rebels"). That is in my opinion reason enough, at least in a SGOTM when you are playing on a team, if you have the time to go through all locations/does not really care about it that is fine on a single game but I would prefer if everyone give this game their best efforts. And CivAssist to help you with tech costs is great. BTW, we are at 98 beakers on MM, 190 to go.

@Tomasjj: Switching shields for food is often better than getting an extra gold. The bigger your locations are the better your position is, generally.

EDIT: I would rather go in with Horsemen than with Swordsmen. Lower probability of winning a battle but higher survivability. Remember SGOTM3! :)

Sorry everyone for messing up and mining the tundra tile , I probaly should've asked first.

@D-man I saw no barbs during my turn.

I think we should get IW because like d-man said we have alot of the land on our own island so they will be cramped and fast to counqer even with swords , thats only if we have iron. If not try to get HBR in trades.

EDIT: I would rather go in with Horsemen than with Swordsmen. Lower probability of winning a battle but higher survivability. Remember SGOTM3! :)
Generally I agree to go for Horsemen, but in this case going for swords allows us to build them much quicker. We can build warriors in one turn and then upgrade them when we are ready. As we don't want to have any units hanging around because of unit support costs, this seemed like a good quick way of getting 10 units to attack our nearest neighbour.

However this relies on us having the cash for the upgrades, and as the AI may be poor maybe we can't count on this. Also if we go for IW and find we don't have iron, now that would be really stupid.

I think right now that HBR should be our next tech to research.
I'd also like to send a scout out with at least one of the galleys. In this level the AI will often leave goodie huts alone and it would be nice to get another free tech. We'll have to make a decision later when you start building horses.

@Wotan: I will try out the mentioned tools, no problem. I might even learn to love them :)

And regarding food vs. gold - I share your view. Food is gold in civ. Growth is golden.

Looking at the save now... :scan:

If Tarkeel finishes this game today, i can play tonight... we need to decide between HBR and IW..
We still can pre-build units for horses -> chariots can be upgraded to horses..
In the best world we will better be off with combined arms..
Remember we will land fall on AI, take over couple of cities. Abandon moscow and we will have to rely on those troops to defend us.. Swords would really help in that situation...

I am going far in to the future, but so i don't forget => best place to land our troops is on the border between two AIs. That way we can attack one take as many cities as we can, make peace, take a deep breath and declare on second AI.

Good point on the extra importance on defense of swords in an invasion force. I was thinking about that earlier today, then I got really afraid that we might not have iron and forgot all about it.

Hopefully those hills to the west will give us some iron... :D

All these turns of waiting and nothing to do for our worker i suggest to start building a road to the northern tip of our island... If that land up north is habitable and suitable for invasion it would be faster to transport troops by road to the northern part of island and then hop them on galleys.

HBR!

:)

EDIT: @Dman, roading as an interim vocation for our Worker seems a good idea.

HBR then IW, we need both I think is the conclusion, but HBR first

By the time we finish HBR we should find at least one AI and hopefully we won't need to research IW...
Does the team agree to stop research once we have both IW and HBR and use all income on military needs?
We can start research again once we are settled in new place and have few core cities. I think in this game we won't need to research anything past chivalry anyways.

Yes I agree with that , trying to reaserach and keep a decent millitary wont work right now and since we need the millitary , ditch the reasearch after IW and HBR.

By the time we finish HBR we should find at least one AI and hopefully we won't need to research IW...
Does the team agree to stop research once we have both IW and HBR and use all income on military needs?
We can start research again once we are settled in new place and have few core cities. I think in this game we won't need to research anything past chivalry anyways.
At minimum maybe, but it does depend on what we find out there. I don't think we can be sure about exactly what we are going to do yet. The AI may be on one land segment and richer and more advanced that we think.

That may be true but it isnt even 1000BC i doubt any of them will be in the middle ages or too rich if they do share a continent.

At minimum maybe, but it does depend on what we find out there. I don't think we can be sure about exactly what we are going to do yet. The AI may be on one land segment and richer and more advanced that we think.

Oh absolutely....
we will have to adjust our tactics according to the situation

That may be true but it isnt even 1000BC i doubt any of them will be in the middle ages or too rich if they do share a continent.
No doubt they will be backward, and that 10% research is the way until we have our core. But the key to a quick victory is always quick research to Chivalry so I want to make sure we maximse that. There is a chance the AI will not help us much. Then if they are all on one landmass, it will be totally different.

Where is Tarkeel?

smacskter

Probably asleep! 12.30AM now, so I will turn in too. No Tarkeel turns today I guess?

Too much homework for Tarkeel again...
When do the schools have breaks in Norway? not until Christmas i reckon. :)

Doesnt he have a Thanksgiving break?

Doesnt he have a Thanksgiving break?

Thanksgiving in Norway???? :lol:
I am suprised how many americans think Thanksgiving is celebrated around the globe...
People keep asking me question if they make a turkey for thanksgiving in Russia all the time :)

I actually thought it was , oh well.

I can see it now

Mad-Bax: And the winner of the spam laurel is.......... Team Smackster. :p

Yep, that is the one we always get. :)

http://www.milligan.edu/stampede/Editions/Volume%2068%20(2003-2004)/Internet%206/v68i6a7.htm

I often get asked if we celebrate July 4th in England as a holiday

England , I thought u were a "Brit in exile". :p

Political Asylum from the cruel British government, I'm English you see and they forced us to become part of Britain and speak the same language as those damn Scots and Welsh.

Ah, England...
I spent a year in London, living in a small flat with window overlooking battersea square. Thames was in a walking distance, Chelsea bridge, nice pubs with lots of beer and me, still single and looking for adventures :love:

Edit: Well, i actually lived there less than a year, but still it was the best time

I wanna go to London (my father's side lives there , in britain) . I've heard is it is a nice city. And also to see some cousins and aunts and stuff I've never met before.

Just to remind you guys: I am going to London tomorrow night! :D

Ah.. In the morning:
Jolly Good! Some tea, biscuits and marmelade, please!

And later in the evening: two pints o'lager and a bag of crisps, please!'

Not to rub it in, mates. I am just excited about it :)

Nah, I just got kidnapped by some friends last night :) Playing the turns now

Very cool.
If you need to discuss something, please dont hesitate to drop me a line.

Err.. Is there any special reason that we can build Heroic Epic?

Heroic Epic has been changed to not require a victorious army and to be available with Warrior Code. This is because Leaders cannot hurry wonders or small wonders for this game and so I tried to balance the disadvantage for the later victory types by giving access to a small wonder *potentially* earlier. A side effect of course is that the AI will cascade to it from failed wonder builds. In playtesting the increase in the number of AI armies was noticeable.

Very interestig :) I approve btw :)

Going with wealth build still though..

(-1) 1790 BC
Switch moscow from Forest to fish. Pump research to 100%

(0) 1750 BC
Moscow: Colossus->Wealth
I spot the first ever barb-camp, 7 squares NE of Moscow.
Lux to 10 again, lose one turn fue to slider but gain food by putting entertainer down.

(1) 1725 BC
Barbs approach from both sides.
Moscow: Archer

(3) 1675 BC
Moscow: Archer->Wealth
Archer kills approaching barb, the other turns around.

(7) 1575 BC
Start prebuild.

(8) 1550 BC
Archer kills barb camp after healing. Net gain is 16 gold.
Sci down to 80%, still 2 turns to go.

(10) 1500 BC
MapMaking comes in. Order up HBR (8 turns) and switch to our first galley
Barb approaches from SW. Scout spots their camp.

Got it, will play tonight...
going to be away from my computer until late afternoon US Eastern time, but will read all the comments before playing.

Which directions we want to send galleys to do exploring 1st?

Which directions we want to send galleys to do exploring 1st?
Shortest route to closest neighbour! :)

@Wotan: Will try to find one...
@TomasJJ: Have fun and enjoy your trip :drool:

And now for some serious comments...

Shift citizen from Forest to lake tile = more food! and shift to produce at least one more galley so lowering spt from 12 to 10 will have no effect...

Send first galley SW and pick up Scout in two turns. He might come in handy if there is a GH on the island with silk, or anywhere else... Just try to evade the Barbs!

Maybe after another galley churn out a couple of Chariots/Horsemen to go hunt barbs with?

Not much use of the Colossus in Despotism. :( Only the fish tile and tiles with 1 gpt adds another gold, we sort of forgot about that I guess... :(

I guess the Colossus will still be useful later on?
Would the Heroic Epic have been a better pri?

Colossus will be very handy to have once out of despotism, and I feel it was the right choice. Much better then Heroic Epic, which we will get no matter what. Great Lighthouse would be very handy to have as well...

I was thinking of sending the galley eastwards.

So, are we gonna build the great lighthouse ourselves (and when?), or steal it?

Not much use of the Colossus in Despotism. :( Only the fish tile and tiles with 1 gpt adds another gold, we sort of forgot about that I guess... :(
What does that mean exactly, I can't load the game to look, don't all our tiles produce commerce. Here is the wonder description

"+1 commerce in any square already producing commerce in that city. "

As I never build wonders, I don't really know what some of them do.

If we had not built it we would have done wealth, and that would have netted us about 20 gold, so it was better to build it. Heroic Epic doesn't sound much use if leaders can only build Armies

smackster

Smackster: Most of our tiles already produce 2 commerce (road+river), and then the third from colossus is lost due to despotism penalty.

I doubt we will have time to build the lighthouse ourself. Moscow needs to be churning out units.

Smackster: Most of our tiles already produce 2 commerce (road+river), and then the third from colossus is lost due to despotism penalty.

I doubt we will have time to build the lighthouse ourself. Moscow needs to be churning out units.
I can't believe that, what kind of a useless wonder is that. Seems like that should have been changed a long time ago, to make it worth building. Well even at 2GPT we haven't lost anything.

Colossus will be very handy to have once out of despotism, and I feel it was the right choice. Much better then Heroic Epic, which we will get no matter what. Great Lighthouse would be very handy to have as well...

I was thinking of sending the galley eastwards.
East is good, and we need to build a couple more galleys.

I'm hoping that we'll have a new Capital when we get a new government, so wont really be able to utilise this wonder.

At 400 shields I can't see us building the Great Lighthouse. We don't even know if we need it to get across sea and even if we do, better to build a few more galleys and ship chain.

Roster
dman (playing)
Wotan (on deck)
smackster (in New York)
tomasjj (in london)
MjM (on the beach)
Tarkeel (up a mountain, sorry first thing that came into my head)

Now I look at the roster, we may need to skip tomasjj. Unless Wotan and tomasjj swap in the roster, we can make it permanent.

What say ye tomasjj? Can you play it in the AM Thursday? Wotan are you happy to swap, I don't want to upset you or anything, but I would like us all to have played some of these turns.

smackster

Sorry, but I dont think I will be able to as my girl wants some attention too.
I also want to take my time when playing, so that I enjoy it more and do well.
So I wont be able to play until tuesday afternoon, like 1700 CET.

After that, no trips planned and I can stay in the loop :)

You guys consider ship chaining to be ok, and no exploit then?

Just checking...

You guys consider ship chaining to be ok, and no exploit then?

Just checking...
We just follow the rules. You could argue that this one should be banned, I would argue that it should not, but as its allowed we should use it.

Sorry, but I dont think I will be able to as my girl wants some attention too.
I also want to take my time when playing, so that I enjoy it more and do well.
So I wont be able to play until tuesday afternoon, like 1700 CET.

After that, no trips planned and I can stay in the loop :)
OK, I'll just leave the order as is and skip you when you come up.

smackster

At the beach , I wish , fricken cold out here like 50 degrees (cold for california).

I think we should post an updated screenie before I know wat direction.

edit: I will be gone today and most of tomorrow (thanksgiving).

Yes a picture would be nice, I note that I was the last player to post one.

Looking at some of the other threads from SGOTM4, some teams never posts pictures, and I'm not going to load their saves, which makes their threads very uninteresting. Remember we have to provide entertainment to the peanut gallery, for bonus points.

smackster

OK, I'll just leave the order as is and skip you when you come up.

smackster

Thanks.

And, I have no issues regarding ship chaining - just wondered what the common norm here was.

By the way, I am 34 years old, civil servant for the moment, social anthropologist by profession. :)
Then you know who you are hanging out with.


JJ

Just finished my game... This is super....
Will post report with pictures in few minutes
Stay tuned....

Pre-turn: Switch Moscow to galley and move citizen from forest to lake to maximize food. Galley will be ready in 3 turn.

T1. 1475BS. Moving scout away from approaching barb. Archer is heading back to Moscow.

T2. 1450BC. Barb appears near luxury colony. Archer is moved from Moscow to protect, luxury has to be raised to 20%.

T3. 1425BC. Scout runs away from barbs... I won't be able to pick him up any time soon. Moscow - Galley->Galley.

T4. 1400BC. Lux slider is back to 10%. Scout spotted another barb camp.

T5. 1375BC. The silk land south from us is an island. Science slider down to 70%

T6. 1350BC. Moscow galley->Barracks and it grows in size. Lux slider is up to 20%. MM and Moscow builds barracks in 3 turns. I've only now noticed we have differential naval movement. Science slider is down to 60%

T7. 1325BC This is the historical day for Russian nation. We learned we are not alone in this world. :band:
Galley crossed ocean south from Silk Island and we met Zulus. They know Vikings, Chinese and Mongols. They have Masonry, IW, Myst., HBR.
Asking for the audience with Shaka. Sell them Alphabet + World map for C. with Chinese + Territory map+17Gold
Now it’s time to go to China. Same trick. Alphabet + World map for C. with Vikings + Territory map+12Gold
Now go to Vikings... Vikings are the gold mine. They know about Iroquois, Japanese, English and yes, Mongols.
Since I am not sure whether Mongols now about first three in the list above I will trade contact with Iroquois.
Crap. Vikings won't sell me contacts with nobody but Mongols… So I am taking it. C. with Mongols + WM + 8Gold is bought for Alphabet + WM
I am asking to see king Ragnar again. This time we buy contact with the English + 2gold for writing.
Wow. In addition to all above mentioned nations Liz also knows about Arabs, French and Celts.
May I see you Liz??? She is in a good mood today and I bought contact with Celts and Arabs for c. with Zulu, Chinese + 20gold + WM.
It's time to meet our Arab friends. We give them Writing and WM in exchange of C. with French and Iroquois +WM +3gold.
I am going to Iroquois. Another trade and we buy c. with Japs + WM for C with Zulu +WM
Hey Shogun!! Have anything to sell??? I am giving them all contacts + Writing and WM for Myst., Masonry, IW +46 gold +WM
I am getting a little dizzy right now... :dubious:
It is time to see Celts. Oh my. They know Aztecs. They are happy to give us C with Monty + WM for C. with Arabs, French and Vikings.
We have iron on the mountain next to the beaver. Worker will finish road in 1 turn and I am sending it down there to establish a colony.
I went trough all the AIs again and bankrupted them selling communications and wm for all the gold they have.
It is time to hit next turn.

IBT: Arabs are building an Oracle

T8. 1300BC. Moscow barracks->horse. MM Moscow and it yields 15spt. to get horse in 2 turns. I am making executive decision to disband our scout.

T9. 1275BC. Archer kills barb. Visited every AI... all broke but England.. Sold Liz our WM for her WM and 36 gold

T10. 1250BC. Dispersed barb camp. There is another one to get rid of. Oops... I messed up our research... I've only noticed it is off and I put it back to 10% on mathematics... Wotan fell free to change.

Not sure about my communication skills, but here we go. We know most of the nations and we have only one tech -Map Making nobody else has. At the moment i have no fresh ideas on what to do, i am simply going to finish my turns.. I do expect a big discussion ahead of us.

Save: here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Smackster_SG005_BC1250_01.SAV)

Somebody complained on the lack of maps, so here we go.
Maps:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM51250BCSTSW.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM51250BCSMM.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM51250BCSTNE.jpg

This is good, very wierd map, I like to try to starve them of Contacts, but I guess you probably had to give that away. This game is going to be over pretty quickly. Now its time to take over.

I might not actually get to this until Saturday now, but I think that is not such a bad thing so that we have time to think about it. There is a chance I can do it tomorrow night.

smackster

I figured that since they are all on the same weirdly shaped continent they will find out about each other rather sooner than later...
That is why i sold contacts. It only make sense to keep AIs from knowing each other when they separated by an ocean and won't learn about each other in a long time.
Wotan plays next and i guess all he can do at a moment is building an attacking force and may be start shipping it down south.
China or Zulu can become our 1st targets since they are the closest ones.

EDIT: I am sure Wotan will show up in 1hour30minutes when it is about 6am in Sweden.... He will either love me or hate me :rolleyes:

Yes sorry its Wotan next

I'm loading now, we should have a close look to decide who is first and where our Capital should be

Will look over tonight or tomorrow morning.

And just to remind you, we met many but not all civilizations....

OK, from no maps to maps galore! Good turns Dman, havn't looked at the save yet but everything looks just dandy. Will play later today, maybe during lunch? Have we decided on a prime target? Or just go for the "weakest link" to get a bridgehead?

This looks real nice.
Well traded.
:goodjob:

My initial thoughts are that we must consider civ strenghts, placing, strat resources and then iron/horses in relation to their UU. Although, it is regent, so I guess we will be cruising pretty soon.

Looking forward to learning some fine warmongering from some of the more experienced players here.

Regarding the hypothetical northern continent, that might be closer, but I guess we will have time to explore in the north before our army is ready to go. Then we will have a better knowledge of our surroundings and will be mroe able to make the right priorities.

JJ

OK guys, I have now used my lunch to have a look at the save.

We need to figure out where to jump the Palace. My favourite spot would be Mecca!!! Arabia have really understood the RCP concept with 3 cities at RCP5. Hopefully no other placements will mess this up. I cannot see any logical AI placements within that distance in the N or E around Mecca. It is also in a resource dense area with high food potential! And Horses next to Mecca and Iron close enough in two locations. Spices, Incense and Wool nearby too. And both they and neighbouring France have late UUs.

The only drawback is the distance across a still uncharted area. Hopefully there are some land in between for us to use as a staging area.

Any other spots found? Or any other spot you prefer over "my" discovery? ;)

I will play tonight, so any comments within the next 6-7 hours will be appreciated. I am quite sure it is about time we decide on a strategy for our next step, so fire away. Where do we make first landings? Where do we "place" our new Capital? I will hopefully uncover more of the map during my 10 turns so everything should be taken for what it is, a preliminary plan until everything is revealed. Maybe Mecca is as good as a location can get anyway?

Not had a look at the game, but Mecca does indeed sound tempting.

We really need to be at war with 2 civs or so constantly, and letting the others settle in around us so we can swap to take their cities next.

OK guys, I have now used my lunch to have a look at the save.

We need to figure out where to jump the Palace. My favourite spot would be Mecca!!! Arabia have really understood the RCP concept with 3 cities at RCP5. Hopefully no other placements will mess this up. I cannot see any logical AI placements within that distance in the N or E around Mecca. It is also in a resource dense area with high food potential! And Horses next to Mecca and Iron close enough in two locations. Spices, Incense and Wool nearby too. And both they and neighbouring France have late UUs.

The only drawback is the distance across a still uncharted area. Hopefully there are some land in between for us to use as a staging area.

Any other spots found? Or any other spot you prefer over "my" discovery? ;)

I would say Mecca is a nice option. Great area for food, will probably give us saltpeter too.

With a later FP in the middle of france we would have a nice base for conquest further down that "arm of land."

Maybe the land that dman mentioned runs from north of our place and over towards arabia. It will be interesting to find out in some turns...when the galley gets up there.

JJ

A final issue to ponder upon before I play my turns. I would really like us to build the Lighthouse. Especially with differentiated naval movement it is a real asset. We could have it in finished during Smacksters turns and by then we would probably have info on the remaining civs. Plus we will be able to cross wo risking any galleys...

The cost is 10 Horsemen/galleys, but wo the support cost of 10 gold and no galleys lost at sea. I say it is worth it.

Hmm.. Lighthouse?
I was thinking about it earlier, but will we really need it after we have gotten a beachhead? I mean, wont its advantages for us be restricted to a certain period (in the start)? Even though +1 movement is nice later on too.

Also, will we loose time regarding our invasion force build up if we decide to shoot for the lighthouse?

JJ

Lighthouse gets much better with differential sea move. Because coast costs 3 times as much as open ocean to move through, you want to move in the ocean as much as possible. LIghthouse gives our galleys effective move 7 instead of 3.

Mecca is a good spot, but also it is farthest away. We can conquer China and Zulu much faster than we can make move on Mecca.
On such an easy level as regent will RCP rings play that big of a difference?

lighthose is nice to have but remember it will be gone when we abandon Moscow. (that the city where we propose to build it right?). On the other hand those 10 horsemen/swords that can be build during lighthose should be enough to conquer half of the either china or zulu.
Question is, can we move galley over the southern ocean in one move?
I haven't had a chance to test during my turns, and i don't remember rules of the diff. naval movements. (i can certainly look them up from previous game).

I am playing devil's advocate here, but we really have to think about which way will bring us to the fastest victory. For me the faster we start kicking AIs butts the better without regard to the perfect city placements.


About FP placement. Since we can't use leaders to rush any wonders we won't be able to build FP far from the palace... We will probably have to forget about having 2 cores, but rather go for FP build near the capital.

EDIT: @TomasJJ: I doubt we will need salpenter in this game. Most likely we will shut down any research after chivalry and game will be over.

Mecca is a good spot, but also it is farthest away. We can conquer China and Zulu much faster than we can make move on Mecca.
On such an easy level as regent will RCP rings play that big of a difference?
With differentiated naval move distances are deceptive. 7 ocean tiles with 1 sea at each end will be possible to traverse with 2 galleys "ship chaining" for a total of 11 "watery" tiles, so Mecca is actually not that far away. For a palace it is the best location in my opinion. Well worth waiting for as it will outproduce anything in the China/Zulu area. So I guess the distance between our continent and China or Arabia is about the same.

Question is, can we move galley over the southern ocean in one move?
I haven't had a chance to test during my turns, and i don't remember rules of the diff. naval movements. (i can certainly look them up from previous game)..
No can do, needs two galleys chaining to traverse, and we do not want a galley with 2 units onboard sitting in a sea/ocean tile. If anything is to be lost at sea we better make sure it is empty galleys.

Forgot about the plan to abandon Moscow. I guess the Lighthouse is out then.

We better explore area north of our island ASAP then. May be we should send worker back to road path to the north of our island if we decide to strike north 1st. I guess we have to have another worker at the moment or postpone creating swordsmen for a while. Moscow won't expand for the next 81 turns IIRC. And we have to have a road to the north tip of the island. It will take much longer sending galleys with units from Moscow itself.
So during the Wotan's turn we have to do more exploring.
Should moscow keep pumping units (horses actually)??? That makes sence for me...

EDIT: I was thinking on situation if we decide to keep Moscow. It would be a feasible if we could use leaders to rush wonders... Would be a perfect palace exploit... But it will most likely take unacceptably long time to build FP anywhere on mainland without a leader. I guess there is nothing else left to do but abandon Moscow. We can't have one city only producing units. Good luck with your turns Wotan and i am looking forward to read your report tonight.

Turn log

0 – 1250BC Pre-flight
Nothing to do, Dman is thorough! ;)

IBT: Barb attack our Archer and dies.

1 – 1225BC
Moscow builds A Horseman, Galley started.

2 – 1200BC
Nada

3 – 1175BC
Moscow builds Galley, Galley started. Barb.Camp dispersed.

4 – 1150BC
Nada

5 – 1125BC
Moscow builds Galley, Galley started.

6 – 1100BC
Barb.Camp dispersed. Barb Galley sunk. Sell Writing to China for 25 gold and WM. Sell WM to France and Japan for 25 gold each. And to Arabia for 15 gold.

IBT: Barb attack an Archer and dies.

7 – 1075BC
Moscow builds Galley, Galley started.

IBT: Barb.Galley attack our Galley and sinks, our galley lose 1 HP.

8 – 1050BC
Nada

9 – 1025BC
Moscow builds Galley, Horseman started. Japan know Polytheism. No rush to get it so I will leave it until Smackster’s turns. Barb.Camp dispersed.

IBT: Barb attack a Horseman and we get our first elite!

10 – 1000BC
Grey border spotted north of our island. The Galley N of Scandinavia will also reach another coast if moving due north next turn. I spotted the light blue tiles when moving into present location for it.

After action report:
Research: 53 beakers to go for CoL. We make 18 bpt now so MMing will probably not save us any since one of those turns will produce one less beaker when MMing Moscow for Horseman build.

Moscow: Building a Horseman every second turn with 16 shields first turn and 14 the second turn. Move a citizen between Fish and forest.

Worker on top of Iron, maybe do Dmans road north instead of colonizing the Iron? I have been building Galleys for crossings and just turned to Horsemen since they move faster than Galleys do due to differentiated move costs and the fact Galleys need to follow the coastline. With the border appearing in the north we might not have needed so many but I built a few extra since I thought we would have to leave them at sea when crossing and that would have cost of a few sunk.

Firaxis: 93


A couple of maps with the two galleys in position to discover new lands!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Smacksternorth1.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/smacksternorth2.JPG

Good turns, we are making progress.

So my guesses about the northern neigbours were right...

And it looks like they are all in reach of our galleys.
First thoughts,
1. establish iron colony
2. moscow to build another worker to continue building the northern highway.
3. Figure out who the northern fella's are, get their maps, but do not sell contacts between northern land and the "Cobra" continent. (i will call it cobra, because i think it ressembles it).
4. send all available galleys up north
5. We don't need more galleys, probably. Start sending troops north, then transport them to the whoever is up north.
6. Figure out if northern continent and cobra continent have a passage between them within a reach of our galley.
7. Adjust possible capital place decision based on new findings.
8. Decide on possible strike of northern continent 1st.
9. Can we use an RoP rape maybe to maximize land we capture during the 1st strike??????

EDIT: I understand Smackster won't be able to play until Friday or even Saturday. That leaves us plenty of time to brain storm the situation. It will also let Tomas get into the game after Smackster's turns.
MjM and TomasJJ your opinions are greatly appeciated. I feel like if it was a beginning of interesting chess game, lots of opportunities, but we have to choose the best one.

1. establish iron colony.
2. moscow to build another worker to continue building the northern highway.
Not sure we need it? I would opt to go exclusively with Horsemen, Swordmen will be too slow moving north and the road will still be under development when we strike in the north. I guess an option would be to do two palace jumps. A first jump to a city i the north and build FP in a good location there. Then turn on the Arabs and jump the palace to Mecca.



3. Figure out who the northern fella's are, get their maps, but do not sell contacts between northern land and the "Cobra" continent. (i will call it cobra, because i think it ressembles it).
4. send all available galleys up north
5. We don't need more galleys, probably. Start sending troops north, then transport them to the whoever is up north.
6. Figure out if northern continent and cobra continent have a passage between them within a reach of our galley.
7. Adjust possible capital place decision based on new findings.
8. Decide on possible strike of northern continent 1st..
Yes on all points! With a possible Palace jump first into these lands and then into Arabia. Building FP before second jump.

9. Can we use an RoP rape maybe to maximize land we capture during the 1st strike??????. Risky if contacts "leak" would prefer we avoid ROP rape.

Not sure we need it? I would opt to go exclusively with Horsemen, Swordmen will be too slow moving north and the road will still be under development when we strike in the north. I guess an option would be to do two palace jumps. A first jump to a city i the north and build FP in a good location there. Then turn on the Arabs and jump the palace to Mecca.


I do agree. Since our SGOTM3 i've been using horses only in my games :)
I have only concerns about early defense with horses, of course we can rush few spearmen when we need some defense.
Let's wait what other people think and maybe reverse worker back on building the northern highway and postpone with iron colony.

Great idea on double palace jumps and FP... That will be the perfect setup if we can time it well....

1. establish iron colony
2. moscow to build another worker to continue building the northern highway.


I agree with this , since I have very limited time all I will say is that I think we should swords instead of horses.


4. send all available galleys up north
5. We don't need more galleys, probably. Start sending troops north, then transport them to the whoever is up north.
6. Figure out if northern continent and cobra continent have a passage between them within a reach of our galley.
7. Adjust possible capital place decision based on new findings.
8. Decide on possible strike of northern continent 1st.
9. Can we use an RoP rape maybe to maximize land we capture during the 1st strike??????

I agree with all of theese.

Sorry I cant say much , really busy.

Moscow is to far from where things will happen to build Swords, besides Horsemen will do the job almost as well but with less casualties.

Another comment on building Worker, please do not do this since it would reduce Moscow to size 8 and then it cannot build Horsemen in two turns as it can on size 9. Not until Moscow is about to be abandoned should be use a few turns to churn out Workers.

I was about to mention the same fact.. It will be counter-productive to have pop 8 in moscow vs. what we have now...

I was thinking on requirements on abandoning Moscow...

Here are my thoughts.

We shall abandon Moscow ASAP but:
1. We should have at least 3 cities in new land and choose one as a future capital.
(Article explaining mechanics of free palace jump (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_palace_jump.shtml) )

2. We should have an access to either horses or iron if not both. (If one or both of the resources are not available, we can build settler as a last Moscow production and use that settler to connect existing resources on our island. Workers for colonies and harbors on both sides will be required).

Sorry, but no Settler can be built by us in this game. We need to time an attack so the "victim" have populated the area we need.

I'm sorry guys, but I have found a bug in the PTW version of the game. Please take a break for a while so that I can get it fixed. I hope I can sort it out quickly.

I really am very sorry for the inconvenience but it appears that I didn't spend enough time playtesting the PTW version since all the big changes were in 1.29f.

Sorry, but no Settler can be built by us in this game. We need to time an attack so the "victim" have populated the area we need.

:wallbash: What i was thinking about... just a matter of habbit i guess...

and..... looks like we have to wait unspecified amount of time to fix a bug...

hopefully not too long..

@M-B: Ignore the sentence above and take your time fixing this, and again don't work to hard on holiday weekend, there are other things in life to enjoy :)

Sorry for dropping of the face of the earth again there.. Had a routing PC-surgery go horribly wrong when my BIOS flash failed... But it's fixed again now :)

Just checking in, wont be able to play until Saturday night or Sunday morning maybe.

Can't really comment until I get back.

smackster

@Smackster: No worries, game is suspended anyway until M-B fixes some bugs... You can take your time, i don't think we will have to skip on our captain :)

Age:13
Birthdate: Oct. 13 1991
Born in: California USA
School: MMS (Margarita Middle School)

I started playing civ aurond June , a nice break from RTS.

There now you know about me , what about u guys?

OK guys your 1050BC save has been fixed and you can continue to play. You will need to download this save from the downloads page.

Once again I apologise for the inconvenience.

No problem , who's turn is it anyway?

@M-B: Our last turn was 1000BC. Did you make it 1050BC in purpose? Do we need to replay 2 last turns? (edit: on the second thought we never uploaded 1050BC save....) I hope there is no mistake with some other team's save file. Sumbission table entry shows 1000BC for out team, so you probably just made a type while copying pasting messages across the team's threads, but please confirm anyway.

@MjM: It Smackser's turn i beleive then Tomas JJ then you. Smackster will put a roster together when he shows up.

Sorry - cut and paste error from Peanuts team. Your save is the 1000BC save of course. Only your save can be loaded to your download slot.

MjM: I'd wipe out the birthdate if I were you :)

23 here, from Bergen but studying in Trondheim (Both in Norway)

OK I've got it, will first have a good look as have not loaded it yet, I'll play it if I'm sure what to do.

I'm 37, Living in the Boston area but coming from England, moved here in 1997.

smackster

I've looked now, I'm not in favour of helping this AI, so I'm not going to trade for Poly yet. We are going to have to build our military and researching will be harder. I'm not sure of the tech progress after CoL, I guess going towards Chivalry, but do we research a government tech, as the AI may take some time to get there. However, if we got Poly and gift it to the AI somebody is sure to research Monarchy for us. I'm going to have to play some turns to get a better feel for this, but may stop in 3 turns to get some opinions.

I see now that we can't get to the AI to the SE, I didn't realise that first galley contact was a suicide. So going north is the only way, unless we get the Lighthouse, and we are not going to stop for that now are we. I'll probably report once I get that northern contact.

smackster

Ok, Smackster is back... :)

We are spamming so much in this thread, but if you look few posts back you will find Wotan's and mine suggestions :)

and as for my bio:
I am 31, born in Baku, Azerbaijan, Soviet Union, currently live in North Carolina, Triangle metro.
Occupation: Network Engineer
Married and have a 3 (soon to be 4) year old boy.

1000BC Not much to manipulate, well nothing actually

T1 975BC
Moscow horse->horse
Arabia and Celts disperse barb huts and have 25 gold.

Start to move the galleys, notice one is next to ocean, so send him east 3 squares to see what he can find (he can get back safely same turn), he comes across sea, right next to a big blob of blackness. Can there be another island there, do I risk his life, you might be able to see where he's gone on the mini-map below, I feel that there may be nothing there and will pull him back)

Move the galley to the north and meet India. They are short Horseback and MM, they know Spanish, Egyptians, and Americans.

Here is my logic in trading in this situation. I value contacts then maps and will hold them if I can, I value MM as that allows the AI to trade maps.
I pay cash, but not too much and rarely GPT.

I trade HBR for Egypt contact, 20 gold and territory map. Note they would not give American contact.
From Egypt I can get Spanish contact and 15 gold, but not America and no map, yet.
Spain also don't have Writing, but they will give us America contact and 6 gold for HBR.
America don't have much, but their land is bigger which is why they would not trade it. I get from them their Territory map and 25 gold.
Back to Spain and trade them Writing for their WM, which gets me most of the map up there. So far I've only given away HBR that these guys did not have, and that will do for now, they have a little bit of cash left but we can get that later.

Here is the map, India does look like a good target, I think its a no-brainer.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/975bc.sav.jpg

975BCcont
Original contact galley to the north of Scandy sees more land to the north, only barbs are there.

We move the worker, to work the road going north, don't need iron right now

T2 950BC
America come up with MM, so they are tech even with us, for sure its right to go north and take out India first.
Arabia has Poly.
Trade Writing to Celts for 25 gold. They would have got it soon anyway.

T3 925BCedit: forgot the header
We research CoL, now we have a choice of what to research next. I can't see any discussion.
We can get Poly (about 6 of them have it now) and then start Monarchy, Philosophy, Maths or Construction.
Literature is also available.

I would tend to Constuction or Currency and see if the AI can come up with any others for us.

I'm stopping at this point, until I get some feedback

I'll be back tonight, to finish the turns.

I played a couple more and am researching Maths.

smackster

Currency is often OK to research and get a fair trade from. I do not know why the AI rarely research it early on? math is another tech the AI is fairly reluctant to research.

So first target: India. Palace in a location we are OK to abandon after war is declared on Arabia so we can jump palace to final location in Mecca. Delhi looks like a good spot for the FP to be handbuilt in. Maybe Karachi is the best spot for Palace since it is OK to abandon it wo too much lost from scrapping it?

Have I counted the AI correctly, so we have met everyone now?

Looks like India is the prime target.
Lets keep pumping those horses and ship them north..
Is there piece of land on northern continent that has not been claimed by nobody yet next to India to make it a landing point for our troops?
Very soon we will realize we can't keep research anymore because of the unit support, but at this time military take priority i believe.
We have to make sure we flip our capital to the exactly the city we want it to be at, i am not very good with palace jumping techniques even after the reading War academy articles.

Looks like India is the prime target.
Lets keep pumping those horses and ship them north..
Is there piece of land on northern continent that has not been claimed by nobody yet next to India to make it a landing point for our troops?
Very soon we will realize we can't keep research anymore because of the unit support, but at this time military take priority i believe.
We have to make sure we flip our capital to the exactly the city we want it to be at, i am not very good with palace jumping techniques even after the reading War academy articles.
I'm nearly finished, but have to play another turn.

There is a point near India where horses are going, however, I'm concerned that culture might eat it up.

The palace jumping will be easy don't worry, it can be tough when you have many big cities, but not in this case. Basically it goes to the biggest city, with some modifications for size of surrounding cities and troops in each city. But I'm sure CivAssist has a utility to make it perfect.

We should keep researching while we have lots of cash, but as we start to find we are losing too much may have to turn it down.

T4 900BC
Horse attacks barb and get elite upgrade.

Arabia and England have MM. So its on both continents. Still not trading it to others.

T5 875BC
The last galley gets to the ocean point, and goes that way, we don't need that many galleys. He does in fact find another island, although is left in sea for this turn.

Elite horse dropped off near India, there is a gap of land and from there we can get Bombay in one turn. I want to block settlers so will bring friends

Archer disperses barb camp

Note that the land found to the west is connected to Egypt.

T6 850BC
Major technology advance as the Aztecs come up with Alphabet


T7 825BC

Doink

T8 800BC
Move the archer back off the mountain to Moscow, so that he's in a central position if barbs come

T9 775BC

See two huts, one on the western land mass and one on the eastern Island.

T10 750BC

Note an American galley that is in the north moving east. Until the lighthouse they will still not get contacts.

Note I have not even traded maps to the north yet, awaiting America (the tech leader) to research something and then to take that from them.

In fact there is pleny of land NW of the landing spot, so sending the horses there. I'm quite sure Bombay will have no more than 2 spears.

There are two horses on their continent, there are two in transit at sea, there are two on our land. I suggest those 6 (two elites) are enough to take Bombay, with the additional Horses that will arrive at a steady pace, we can then move from there and take Lahore, while preparing for the battle for Delhi, and defending Bombay.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/750bc.jpg

Roster

This is actually the Roster although we can skip tomas if we don't want to wait until Tuesday.

dman
Wotan
smackster
tomasjj (playing)
MjM (on deck)
Tarkeel (on deck)

I forgot, did Tomas said he wouldn't be available till tuesday..
In this case we can skip him if we follow official rules, but i don't want to offend new team mate by doing so. :)

I agree with Smackster on short term tactics.
How soon do we want to abandon Moscow? What would be the rule of thumb?

We agreed to skip him before the delay for the bug that MB fixed. If MjM is ready then he should take the save.

We need to decide where to send the capital first. Then we can plan the Moscow disband. Delhi, or Bombay, or others.

We need to decide where to send the capital first. Then we can plan the Moscow disband. Delhi, or Bombay, or others.
I would like to see the palace in Calcutta or Karachi with a FP built in Delhi. And another palace jump to Mecca later on. The palace should go in a location at RCP > 5 so it will be outside primary ring from Mecca at 5. Thus we lose as little as possible from abandoning it later.

The GHs you found, are they "possible" for us to reach before the AI get them? If so I would like us to make an attempt. They might give us techs!

I would like to see the palace in Calcutta or Karachi with a FP built in Delhi. And another palace jump to Mecca later on. The palace should go in a location at RCP > 5 so it will be outside primary ring from Mecca at 5. Thus we lose as little as possible from abandoning it later.

The GHs you found, are they "possible" for us to reach before the AI get them? If so I would like us to make an attempt. They might give us techs!
One of them is on the new Island to the east, so I'm sure we can get to that. The other is a long way out to the west near Egypt, but may be worth a shot, as the AI is slow to expand on this level, and does not really target the hut.

Problem is that the eastern island does require a suicide shot.

How about that piece of land i saw west from arabs
is it connected to the northern island...
We might have a sea passage between northern and eastern (cobra) islands

How about that piece of land i saw west from arabs
is it connected to the northern island...
We might have a sea passage between northern and eastern (cobra) islands
I think the Arab land soon ends and then there is a little gap before you get to Egypt. So in fact going north by India you can get all the way round the other continent without using a suicide.

Seems that any team who settled north has an advantage

we need to eliminate our disadvantage by moving capital to india ASAP :)

I would suggest we move the capital when we think we can generate the same amount of beakers from the new area. We could simply use a basic calculation that once we have as many citizens in the new area as in Moscow that we should move it. That should not be hard to do as we'll have a few cities.

Note to all, obviously we should not attack any size 1 zero culture cities in this game, as we always want to capture cities. Well that is until we start try our final conquests.

Is science more important than military???
i'd say if we have few cities in India and can build more horses in certain amount of time than we could in Moscow it would be a time to move, even that means we won't be able to generate enough beakers,
but it will help us to capture more cities with bigger military faster and may work better in a long run.

I tend to agree that if we can build more horses in those cities than in Moscow, then we should jump it. However, I think Moscow will continue to produce horses quicker at first, and it will produce vets. However there is the time to transport of course.

That is why I was trying to set a rule of thumb with beakers.

First we have to decide where to move it, and then set our plan. Wotan suggested Calcutta, which is good and central but I liked one of those cities on the cows for that extra food (then again I can't remember what you get for irrigated sheep). As we are going to jump the palace again, I don't think it matters that much, but we do need to agree.

Roster

I'm officially skipping tomasjj, and hope that MjM will appear. 24 hours from now for MjM to get it.

dman
Wotan
smackster
tomasjj (skipped)
MjM (playing)
Tarkeel (on deck)

if we want fast FP build in India land and if we want it in Delhi new capital should be as close to Delhi as possible to minimize corruption.
From this point of view bombay or probably Bangalore (lousy location, won't miss too much when scrapping) are better cities for the palace jump.

Am i making sense or all the distances between cities in India are pretty much close enough to have about the same corruption level?


EDIT: Since this game will be pretty much one long (hopefully not ver long) continuous war, i guess monarchy is the government of choice. Don't remember anybody mentioning which government we should choose on the permanent basis.

MjM is probably still in school, i hope he will show up at around 6-7 pm EST

The difference in distance would probably be only one shield or beaker or less, so I certainly think we should make the palace the best city, and the FP one next to it.

I thought palace should be the worst city since we are going to abandon it to move yet again to Mecca.

EDIT: Since this game will be pretty much one long (hopefully not ver long) continuous war, i guess monarchy is the government of choice. Don't remember anybody mentioning which government we should choose on the permanent basis.

MjM is probably still in school, i hope he will show up at around 6-7 pm EST
I think maybe Republic, as it is low level. However, do we just let the AI research it. Lets get a scout out to see if those huts can help us.

I thought palace should be the worst city since we are going to abandon it to move yet again to Mecca.
I see your point, as we will have the FP there and may not want to lose that best city. I don't know, getting that core up and running quicker will help.

I think maybe Republic, as it is low level. However, do we just let the AI research it. Lets get a scout out to see if those huts can help us.

Not sure about republic... When you play conquests republic is the way to go, since in conquests you can control republic if you have luxuries and markets...
I noticed that with PTW no matter how many luxuries you have WW kicks in..
And remember we will have lots and lots of alien citizens in our cities and they will revolt right away... Republic will be the pain for us.
I am not sure on research.. It takes too freaking long to research government and on the other hand AIs don't like trading government techs in.

I see your point, as we will have the FP there and may not want to lose that best city. I don't know, getting that core up and running quicker will help.

This comes down to math and as soon as i start calculating i am loosing fun playing. So whatever you guys decide :mischief:

The only difference between conquests and vanilla/ptw is the unit support. Now that is a valid point as we can't just build cities like crazy as I would normally do to offset the support.

On the other side, look at how weak the AI are, we are out teching them with one city :) I correlate this weakness to military, so once we get a few troops in the field they will go down like flies. The main factor for WW is how much damage a particular AI does against you, and each time you declare peace with that AI, most of that goes away. In this game we can play all the dirty alliance peace tricks we want.

The last time I went Monarchy in a game of Civ was SGOTM3.

smackster

Sorry guys , just got out of school and will get the save right now , one question though , moscow is still not building gallies right , just horses?

no galleys, just horses
make sure you build horses in 2 turns.
Build as many as you can (5 actually) and ship the north to the spot Smackster found.
Make sure you protect worker who is roading road from possible barbs and good luck with your turns :)

As I suggested before, once you get 6 horses over to India, attack them (two are in India, 2 are in galleys, 2 are moving to the galley pick up point.

You can get Babylon in one turn, they will have probably max 2 spearmen there, make sure you can capture it of course, we don't want any auto raizes. Then decide how to proceed based on what you see. Keep the horses pumping for reinforcements.

man this game is getting tougher.

750 BC T0:Nada

730 BC T1:Nada

710 BC T2:Did some trading around got a mroe refined world map with 85 goldish.

690 BC T3:Nada

670 BC T4:Finish Math , start Construction.

650 BC T5:Nada

630 BC T6:Nada

610 BC T7:Nada

590 BC T8:Nada

570 BC T9:Nada

550 BC T10:Ok here goes nothing.
First horse goes in redlines regular spear.
Second goes and takes 1 hp off of another unfortified spear.
Third goes and redlines that spear.
Fourth goes in and attacks and Dies against a warrior yellow lining it. :eek:
Fifth Takes out unfortified spear.
Sixth take out warrior unhurt.

Man RNG sucks. There is 0 horses being shipped right now , but 3 on the mainland ready to be , hopefully other Indian cities dont have this luck.

OK, so we are at war now! You did DoW before attacking, right? And no units of ours was within their cultural borders at that time?

Construction? Wasn't the discussion leaning towards Currency as our next tech?

The SAVE is not on the "Submissions" page???

And I would have liked a map of the "area of conflict"! :(

EDIT: Just a little observation, MjM I understand this is your first Succession game so I just want to mention that as a rule of thumb, on the last turn of a player's volley you normally refrain from making major decisions. If they are needed it is better to upload the game a turn early or do everything but "take that crucial decision" and let the team discuss the situation and then let the next player make the decision in his volley. Going to war is definitely not someting I would do on my last turn. I can only guess your decision was taken without knowing this. If you are in doubt re. something, it is better to stop playing and post a question.

Guys,
Back from (rainy....)London at last, in the proximites of a puter.
Reading up on the happenings now... will check the save when I get back from work around 1700 CET.

JJ

Sounds unlucky with those attacks, but did we take that city?. How many horses remain, its unclear if some of those were retreats or they died.

Although I agree on major decisions on the final turn, we had essentially set the parameters up, 6 horses, then attack Babylon, so it was a pre-arranged decision.

Roster

dman (on deck)
Wotan
smackster
tomasjj
MjM (just played)
Tarkeel (playing)

24 hours wont start ticking until the save is posted

Oh, MjM never uploaded a save... He is about to get home from school, so i guess he will fix the mistake....

I'll take it tomorrow (probably), but might have to wait another day.