SGOTM5 - Russia. Game Thread Team Tone.

Hi everyone, and welcome to the SGOTM5 Game thread.

Note: EVERYONE will have to install the correct resource graphics whether or not they have played SGOTM4.


Here is the start position.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5-starta.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5-startb.jpg

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Russia
World size - Large, 25% land give or take.
Difficulty Regent - but plays harder.
The map is handbuilt, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

Here are a couple of links you might find useful.

The original GOTM23 Announcement. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/gotm23_arabs.shtml)
The Constitution (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1733966&postcount=61)
The GOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=71788)
SGOTM5 Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=105346)

This Months' sponsored variant is OBCC - One Built City Conquest the rules for which are as follows.

1. You may never build a settler.
2. You must win by conquest victory condition.

Let me be the first to greet the other members of Team Tone, a curious fusion of two successful teams from past SGOTMs.
I would like to be last on the roster, for the simple reason that I will not be available much until mid-December. I should be around to play some in the meantime, but I can't promise that I'll play every time it's my turn. Just so you know. Other than that I'm incredibly reliable and punctual, as Mauer and especially Detlef will attest. ;)

Hello everbody. Nice to be back with Taliesin (the philosopher) and Detlef (the Pikeman) from SGOTM3. I'm not really familiar with anybody else, but I remember going through some SG posts from KB. Looks like we have a pretty good team here. Not sure what my strong game is, and I have never really played any variants, so this will be a learning experience for me. I would like to think it is warmongering, but that is highly debatable. Also, it has been about 2 months since I even played CIV3, due to um........ circumstances. I do not actually have a CIV disc right now, but I will have it one week from today. I hope this isn't a problem. It doesn't matter who I play after, as long as I'm not first. I realize I am not the team captian, if we decide to actually have one that is. I do think that Taliesin and Detlef would agree that things run smoothly when we do though. I think it would be a good decision to go with a fairly strict 24/48 turn schedule. Just to keep things moving smoothly. Just my opinion and not authoritative though. I'm pretty opinionated so get used to it :p .

Hello all! Some old faces, some new. It's good to be playing with Tone and Marconos again, and I'm sure it'll be a pleasure playing with Mauer, Taliesin and Detlef. I'd agree that we seem to have a pretty good crew assembled. I have new real preference on a turn order. If nothing else we can just go with the order of the team list, or something random. I'd agree on having a fairly strict 24/48 system. Aside from all that, I can't think of much else to say. Let's Rumble ;)

Hi everyone! As KB and marconos will already know, SGOTM4 was my first game so I'm still quite new to SGs. Because of this if we do want a team captain then it should not be me! (I think it's only named after me as my name is the shortest!) Just to put your minds at rest though I am not new to civ :)

I also like the idea of a strict 24/48 turn schedule assuming that I am understanding it correctly! (Post 'got it' or 'can't play this round' within 24 hours and post updated save within 48 hours?)

We are we playing the variant, aren't we? I think everyone said yes to this option but I may have made an error with this.

Roster? We could go with the order on the spreadsheet posted by MB but move Taliesin to the bottom as requested which would give:
KB
marconos
Tone
Detlef
Mauer
Taliesin

edit: The above is our playing order!

or we could alternate between members of the two old teams to give
KB
Detlef
marconos
Mauer
Tone
Taliesin
Either is fine by me!

Yes, we are playing the variant. And good luck to us all on that score-- it looks a little tricky.
I guess the first decision is: where do we move our settler to?

I also like the idea of a strict 24/48 turn schedule assuming that I am understanding it correctly! (Post 'got it' or 'can't play this round' within 24 hours and post updated save within 48 hours?)
Roster? We could go with the order on the spreadsheet posted by MB but move Taliesin to the bottom as requested which would give:
KB
marconos
Tone
Detlef
Mauer
Taliesin

Right, 24 hours to pick up or decline the save. Then 48 to play it. The first roster you posted seems fair enough to me.

EDIT: I think we'll all agree that the start position is crap. We might want to follow down to that river, but tundra on the equator doesn't really look promising at all, whichever way we go.

... and the other units as well,

Three units and three mountains. I can see rivers by two but I'm unsure about the northern* one. As we can only build one city we've obviously got to make sure that we have a decent site. We could start by moving our scout to one mountain. If the scout reveals a poor starting place, we can move the settler and worker towards the other two mountains and we get a decent map in two turns. I know this means a few turns wandering around but it might be worth the short term lost production. Which mountain first though?

(*If north is the correct term. We could be at one of the poles and so everyway could be either north or south depending upon which pole we are at! Then again maybe I am talking rubbish and should leave this side issue alone :crazyeye: )

I thought I would just add that I am in Texas, at GMT -6 hours. This could help, as far as figuring out when everyone is more than likely to be online.

Detlef seems to be MIA. I don't know what's up, but we haven't heard from him in SGOTM4 since he posted a Got-it on November 10th. I hope everything's okay, and that it's just an Internet problem or something. Anyway, Mauer, when it's your turn, play unless we've heard from Detlef-- you'll have to skip him until we hear otherwise. It's too bad, because this is his game! (:warmonger: )

... We could start by moving our scout to one mountain. If the scout reveals a poor starting place, we can move the settler and worker towards the other two mountains and we get a decent map in two turns. I know this means a few turns wandering around but it might be worth the short term lost production. Which mountain first though?.......
I don't have the game installed yet, so maybe somebody can take an actual fog gazing screen shot? The original pic isn't revealing, and if you have a terrain mod it might help see things a little clearer. Just off of what I see we can't really go wrong moving the scout to the mountain on the west or the mountain on the SE. My personal opinion would be to move the scout to the SE, then put up a screenshot of it. Just to see what we have. Since KB is leading, why don't you go ahead and do this for us when you have time.

I agree with this so over to you, KB!

BTW as my location suggests, I am on GMT. (I'm just outside London)

GMT-6.....

Alrighty, sounds good. I'll try to take a look later tonight sometime. I think I'll go with scout to the SE mountain. I'm at GMT-6 as well in Wisconsin, btw.

So we're just waiting for marconos and Detlef to check in. I'm fairly certain Detlef wouldn't mind us starting the first round without him as he is pretty easy going, but have any of you heard from marconos?

Marconos checking in.

Sorry lost track of the days. As well couldn't find anything that told me what team I was on so I guessed Tone and was right!!

This will be my third SGOTM. So far I have gotten a wooden spoon in the 1st one and it appears to be on pace for the same result in the second. one. I would really like to change that.

I used to be a monarch level player but I no longer play CIV on my own. I'm addicted to the SG format and only play these so not sure where me actual skill level is anymore.

As for exploration ... my thought is split up into 3 directions. Do not keep the worker with the settler to explore as quickly as possible. I belive our 1st city location will largerly determin success or failure in this game. Scout to the Northern mt appears best more 1st as their appears to be something on eighet side of that mountain.

Turn order ... as long as I'm not 1st I don't care. We really need to stick to the 24/48 hour rule as these games always seem to drag and I think we need a good manager to enfource that.

Good to see new members and I would love to get anything other then a DANG SPOON ;)

We are glad to be on your team, marconos! The former members of Team Mauer are still eagerly dusting and polishing our green laurels, so fear not! we will not accept spoons as an outcome.

Oh yes .. I am on GMT -5 ??? (EST) I am on bascially all of the Time M - F. I'm a software developer and live in front of my box (just ask the wife and kids!!)

Good to hear you Mauer guys are used to being on top. Hopefully you can compenate for my ineptitude ;).

Oh yes .. I am on GMT -5 ??? (EST) I am on bascially all of the Time M - F. I'm a software developer and live in front of my box (just ask the wife and kids!!)

Good to hear you Mauer guys are used to being on top. Hopefully you can compenate for my ineptitude ;).

Well, it was a slight exaggeration, given that we were one of three teams not competing in the variant. I think Mauer and zamint3 can take most of the responsibility for our excellent performance, given Team alamo's disappointing go at SGOTM4.

As for exploration ... my thought is split up into 3 directions. Do not keep the worker with the settler to explore as quickly as possible. I belive our 1st city location will largerly determin success or failure in this game. Scout to the Northern mt appears best more 1st as their appears to be something on eighet side of that mountain.
Only one more team member to get online. I wouldn't worry too much about the wooden spoon, just add it to your avatar and make a fashion statement out of it :) . No guarantees on placement, but it's still fun anyways. As for the exploration, splitting the units is always an option. I think it would be best to see what the scout reveals first. Tone could be right about the unit being positioned at one of the poles though, so who knows? BTW, I was the spam king on SGOTM3 Mauer, and I plan on keeping that title :p.
OT: I wonder where zamint3 is. I didn't see him in any of the team rosters.

Here's what we now know....


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Tone_sgotm5.JPG


That looks much more promising than our start. I moved the worker west, and I think we should get the worker to the mountain to see what is there before we truly commit to the SE site.

That looks much more promising than our start.

Nothing could look worse :D

Are you going to move the settler N to check that area out, leave it in place for a turn until the worker has moved onto the mountain or start following the scout?

I was unsure as what we want to do there. I'm quite willing to check the northern mountain, if no one has any qualms about it. I won't get to playing the whole set until a bit later, so feel free to chip in.

If we decide to go down there, we'll need to check and see if that is fresh water down there. I don't remember what the land mass is, but only 25% land I think. So it could be small islands in which case we would probably want to shoot for MM. Unless neither one of those are coast tiles of course.

I would move the settler east. It would give a bit more information about the north and is a move toward the south-eastern site as well.

I would agree with Talisesin suggestion.

Next turn I would say to walk the scout S as the wheat there and Bonus grassland looks promising. As well more the work into the western mountian.

I don't know why but I have a feeling that if we spend 6 - 10 turns moving the settler we will be better off then dropping at an earlier spot.

I don't know why but I have a feeling that if we spend 6 - 10 turns moving the settler we will be better off then dropping at an earlier spot.

I agree. It is crucial that we settle in a site with excellent growth potential. Other towns that we capture early in the game will be a fair distance from our capital and so will have high corruption so we will be relying on this for most of our units. The additional captured towns may provide the odd unit but really all they will give us is increased unit support so we must hold our nerve and find the best spot.

BTW I'm OK with any settler movement suggestions. East, North, whatever!

4000 BC

Moved as was shown. Move settler east as advised.

3950

Worker moves onto Western mountain and spots a cow and some grass along the river. Since cow is superior to Wheat, I'll move settler that way unless scout can determine that the wheat location is better overall.

3900

Scout has also discovered Game and furs by the wheat. Worker hasn't seen anything new yet. I move settler in a way so that it is closer to both sites.

3850

Nothing much new discovered.

3800

Worker spots furs and Game by the cow site as well. Quite a conundrum MB has made for us.

3750

After deliberating, I choose to head for the cow site. It looks like to me that MB has made thes positions relatively similar.

3700

I move worker onto the cow. Settler is in the area. Now I stop to get some input for our city placement. Settling on the spot doesn't seem like a bad idea.

I'll go with that. I was hoping that the tundra might melt away once we got away from the starting position but no such luck. This is going to be interesting!

Looks fine to me. We get the cow and the game with the culture expansion. Not to mention a bonus grassland and furs so go for it.

Furs, game, cattle, BG and fresh water.....sounds good. Oh, and plenty of fire wood for those cold lonely winter nights :cool:

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Tone_SG005_BC3000_01.SAV)

Turn log, continued


3650

Moscow is founded and set build another scout. Worker starts irrigating the cow. Scout pops a hut and gets 25g.

3600

I forgot to set research last turn, so we start on writing at min.

3500

Scout spots another goody hut. At this point I have the thought taht we should avoid the Goody huts for now. If we let the AI get bigger than us for a while and pop them later, we might be able to get lucky and get a settler. Getting the a second city over by that wheat site would certainly be nice, especially if we end up isolated.

3400

Moscow completes scout, starts on worker. Our other scout finds a location similar to ours to the NE.

3250

We've spotted plenty of huts around, so there are plenty of settler oppurtunities.

3200

Moscow expands borders, completes worker, and starts on barracks as I can't think of anything else to build.

3000

Not much.



Summary

No contact, and I'm starting to fear we're alone on this icebox. There are no less than five goody huts visible, so we should have a decent chance at popping at least one settler, considering this is regent.

Man, this map really sucks. Looks good KB. Since I won't have the game untill this weekend, I am stuck just making comments of no real interest. I usually like to load up the sav. and critique.

assume I'm up now

Got it

Mad_Bax: Where are the download and upload links that are normally on the 1st post in the thread? Mental midgets like myself need those to be able to find things.

Just a thought, but shouldn't we go ahead and pop the huts? If we have a chance at getting to MM faster, this would be a huge bonus. That is, if the huts even give us techs. If we pop barbs, since barb setting are secret, with only one city we would be able to defend quite nicely I think.

We can either way on the huts, I suppose. If we pop them right now though, any techs we get are going to be the cheapest ones available, like Ceremonial Burial and Warrior Code. I think it'll be a while until we can get any techs from them that will speed us to Map Making. My thoughts are just that being able to get a second city before the AI starts dropping off settlers would be a big advantage. And, I certainly hope we don't get any barbs from the huts, considering we're expansionist. Then again, I wouldn't put it past MB to remove barb immunity from the expansionist trait just to see the reactions people have when their scout pops a bunch of angry barbs. I know I might do that :lol:

Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Tone_SG005_BC2550_01.SAV)

Startup: Investigate all of the cities. Everthing looks okay. We have a huge empire.

BTW: According to the rule variations from Mad-Bax you cannot generate settelers from huts. Will pop them as I go on my turns.

1) 2950 BC: Pop a hut and get a worker. (6 miles from home of course)
Bump research down to 10%

2) 2900 BC: Pop a hut and get a map.

3) 2850 BC: zzzzzzz

4) 2800 BC: zzzzzzz

5) 2750 BC: zzzzzzzzz

6) 2710 BC: zzzzzzz

7) 2670 BC: cty size to 3 up lux to 10% ... should have connected up the luxury sorry guys.

8) 2630 BC: Moscow: Barracks -> Spearman
Think we should get 2 of them for happiness then start work on a wonder or military?

9) 2590 BC: zzzzzzzz

10) 2550 BC: Pop a hut get another dang map
New worker makes it home yeee hawwww

Whew .. that was one rousing set of turns there.

Only a couple of unexplored spots left. It does appear that this patch of Northern Canada is all ours!!!!!

Sorry for the double post: Didn't see the hut discussion before I started playing my turns. I popped huts and got jack for it. Still a couple left to go though.

OK. I'm up next then! I'm afraid I have a late night at work but as there is not too much to do in this game at the moment I shold be able to play my turns later tonight.

My thoughts on next builds are to build a barb hunter (warrior or spear unless we pop WC) after the MPs. This will cost us 1gpt but if there are barb huts he will earn his way and reduce disruption around our city. Then I think that we should go for the Colossus as we can't do anything else without adding to our unit costs and we need the cash for the lux slider!

Trust MB to put us on an island on our own. I was so looking forward to an early rush on another civ!

Got it and am just about to play.

I got the game earlier than expected, and will be able to pick up my spot in the roster :) I just need to figure out how in the heck to get the resources to show properly.

Turn 1 (1510BC)
Hut gives Pottery.
Turn 2 (2470BC)
Moscow spear->spear
Turn 3 (2430BC)
Furs connected; reduce lux slider.
Turn 4 (2390)
zzz
Turn 5 (2350)
Moscow spear->spear
Then pop W-Code so change build to archer.
Turn 6 (2310)
zzz
Turn 7 (2270)
Silks on nearby island SE-inhabitants? Will leave scout there to make contact.
Turn 8 (2230)
Archer->Colossus. We can always convert to Heroic Epic if we fail. Put new worker on lake rather than furs. We can get the pop up and then put on forest tiles for shields. (We are on an island!)
Turn 9 (2190)
zzz
Turn 10 (2150)
Fortify one worker in Moscow with 1/3 mp left.

Do we need three workers at the moment? Could add one to the city to increase income and eventually shield production?

Anyone heard from Detlef?

save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Tone_SG005_BC2150_01.SAV)

Since he hasn't checked in yet, should I go ahead and take the sav?

I would say that is fair enough. There's not a lot of decisions to be made at the moment so the sooner we get contacts and some action, the better.

BTW can you see the goats yet?

I don't see no stinkin' goats! I don't need no stinkin' goats! :lol:
I sent a PM to mad-bax. It shouldn't affect my gameplay, so I'll just play like this for the time being. Will post shortly.

Also, the citizen in the lake can be move to the roaded forest. It just changes growth from 3 to 4 turns, but it also changes colossus build from 27 to 21. Fair enough trade I think, is this ok?

I'd say its a worthy trade off.

I editted this post, and this is the correct turn set

Rather than having a worker sleeping, I woke him and put them all to the task of roading and mining the remaining tiles.
2110BC- zz
2070-zz
2030-zz
1990-zz
1950-adjust the lux slider for pop growth
1910-zz
1870-zz
1830-We develop writing and set to map making. A whopping 40 turns
1790-zz
1750-nothing

colossus in 8 turns. We should think about beefing up an SOD in preparation for some galleys. After completing the Colossus that is. We desperately need to find another civ to liberate as soon as possible.
Also, I looovveee screenshots.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/colossus1.JPG

To my knowledge, Detlef has not posted for two weeks now. I guess we have to skip him until he surfaces. Which means, it's my turn! I'll have to expend my full 72 hours on this one, I think-- I won't have time until Thursday night. So, please consider this a got-it, and pretend that I didn't post it until midnight tonight so I can play Thursday without breaking the time limit. :) In the meantime, feel free to post suggestions/advice/orders.

Hey Taliesin, before you download the save. I tried uploading the sav, but it wouldn't let me because it says I have v1.22. This came with the civ3 complete I just got, but I played it under PTW. I sent a PM to a mod already, and they can probably fix it.

I apologize for drowning the thread with my posts, but AlanH is looking at the sav. He said he will try and get to it tonight, but if not tomorrow. Sorry guys :blush:

EDIT: Alright, the civ3 complete automatically runs the file you open in conquest apparently. So I have to replay my turns after I find the PTW executable file. Since it's a little late tonight, I'll do this about noon or so tomorrow. Again, I apologize.

EDIT: The above turnset is correct. I went ahead and fixed it.

Hey I got an idea for a new soap opera .... "The Mauer odyssey" ;)

Hey I got an idea for a new soap opera .... "The Mauer odyssey" ;)
Mauer says (In a condescending 1st grade shool girl tone of voice) "Hey, the Mauer Odyssey". :p
Yes, I am merely here for amusement. I guess it's kind of funny how I can have a conversation with myself in a thread.

I was just thinking.....(Glances evily at the peanut gallery)...Those 2 sites are fairly similar with one exception. The wheat site is closer to that mystery continent with the dyes. Nothing major, but might have shaved a few turns as far as troop movement and such.

So, Mauer, is that save ready for me to download?

It's all yours. It's at the bottom of my turn log.

Okay, I've got it. As I said, I won't post until Thursday afternoon or night.

1790-zz
1750-nothing


Is there a subtle but important difference between these two phrases or did you get bored with saying 'zz'?

No barbs then? If that is the setting then it should make colonies easier to work with but we will have less cash so the Colossus will be useful. With so many turns left before MM we can still build up a decent stack and actually be able to afford it!

Is there any reason to upping our research on MM? Would we actually get it any quicker? Speed out of the gate is going to be critical in this one.

I agree it's worth looking at but without actually having the save to hand I suspect that with only one city we stand no chance of making a significant dent in 40 turns as MM is an expensive tech (base cost 12, ie 1.5 times more expensive than Writing). We also will need the cash as our unit support is pathetic at the moment.

I'm not at home right now, so I can't open up the save right now. I think at 80-90% it cut research to 32. somewhere around that number anyways.

If it only reduces it by that amount then my vote is that we go with 40-turn research and build up a decent treasury for unit support in the period of time before we manage to steal some towns (and maybe afterwards as well ;) ) BTW can we afford to research at 80-90%?

Of course once we get the Colossus the income will increase (from around +6gpt to +12gpt?) and so researching at max may become a viable option but if we do that then there is no point doing minimum until then as these would be wasted turns.

I guess I'm in two minds and so I can be persuaded either way! :D

The 32 turn quote above was just a guess. I did tinker with it a bit, but to research at that high of a percentage would have been like -6g per turn. Again, I am just guessing what it exactly was since I am not on my computer That was yesterday, I'm trying to remember what I did just 10 minutes ago! :p

Perfectly understood.

I'm trying to remember what I did just 10 minutes ago!

I know the feeling!

In that case skip it. I was just hoping.

I have never played a OCC or OBCC before. Just curious as to where the wide variances in the Jason scores on the graph come from. Any clues?

Happiness has a factor. When I didn't connect up the furs 1st that may have something to do with it. Other people could have settled in a different spot and may have been lucky enough for contact already and thus traded a tech or two???

Okay, not much to report, obviously.

1725 Scout finds a Vandal camp in the NE of the continent.
1700 Start building a road eastward from Moscow.
1675 More workers moving to help with road.
1650 Moscow expands to 7 population.
1625
1600
1575
1550 Finish the Colossus and start Archer. Our income increases to a whopping 9gpt, so I jack the science spending up. At 0gpt, Map Making is five turns sooner.
1525 Our spearman kills a barbarian warrior.
1500 Build archer, and start granary.

Notes: there is still a Vandal camp near our workers-- the spearman should be able to take it out, or the archer if you want to minimise risk. My thinking in building the road is this: rather than having the workers doing nothing, we might as well prepare roads to the two furs, but more importantly to the sites where AI is likely to settle. Assuming the AI is not completely idiotic, this should be fairly predictable-- they will first occupy the nice-looking sites (the wheat, etc.). If we already have a road to them, it will make it easier and faster to :ar15: their cities.
Feel free to switch from granary-- it's just a placeholder.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Tone_1.JPG
The save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Tone_SG005_BC1500_01.SAV)

So what do we build next? With another 23 turns until MM, we could build up a decent stack of archers but we would be running a deficit of around -13gpt and will have around 160g in the treasury by the time we get our first galley. This is not a problem if we can find a suitable victim soon after taking to the seas (and switching off research for a while will also help) but if it takes too long to get our army into action, the costs may start to bite. Maybe we should be actively barb hunting with some archers in the meantime-the 25g bounties will help us survive.

So what do we build next? With another 23 turns until MM, we could build up a decent stack of archers but we would be running a deficit of around -13gpt and will have around 160g in the treasury by the time we get our first galley. This is not a problem if we can find a suitable victim soon after taking to the seas (and switching off research for a while will also help) but if it takes too long to get our army into action, the costs may start to bite. Maybe we should be actively barb hunting with some archers in the meantime-the 25g bounties will help us survive.
Barb hunting sounds good. So we can be expecting barbs to be popping up often. This is sure to be some fun at the dawn of the middle ages. I think we probably need to keep building units for this and for a hopefully soon liberation force. Maybe we can look at how much a galley cost in shields and do a pre-build to get it at about the same time as MM. Good idea on the roading Taliesin. I don't know what our max pop for Moscow is, but I'm pretty sure we can fill up all the tiles with citizens. If that is the case, we will need to finish roading inside our city boundaries.

I think we'll need to use coastal tiles up to 10 pop, since we only get 2 extra food pt. That will change when we switch to Monarchy, obviously.

A forest chop on nthe game will give us more food (4 food when irrigated in despotism). This enables us to work two more forest/tundra tiles but IMO we should save this until we need the sheild bonus. (temple/market?) However thinking a little further ahead, this would be quite useful as we could get a scientist with more food rather than set 10% on the research slider.

Assuming that unit costs are unchanged from the standard game and that the extra citizen will not increase the research rate, 23 turns @ 10 shields/turn equates to 10 archers/spears and then a prebuild that converts to a galley (via the 'big picture') upon discovery of MM.

edit: the forest chop on game could be where other teams are getting their increased score from. More pop = greater score and this gives a greater rate of pop growth.

I'm sorry guys, but I have found a bug in the PTW version of the game. Please take a break for a while so that I can get it fixed. I hope I can sort it out quickly.

I really am very sorry for the inconvenience but it appears that I didn't spend enough time playtesting the PTW version since all the big changes were in 1.29f.

Just a reminder, when the game is back up it will be KB's turn.

Just in case you have not seen this post here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2369515&postcount=47) MB wants us to play on until 1000BC and then the save will be 'fixed' at that point, or at least that's how I'm interpreting it! Should we wait until further clarification or get KB to play his turns?

edit: BTW we are continuing to fall behind in score and have only 75% of the leaders points. We will get territory expansion very soon which will help but should we be concerned?

It will help our score when we get that furs resource connected, soon I hope. Maybe we should make it a priority for the workers.
It does look as though we should play to 1000 BC, I think that's pretty explicit from mad-bax's post.

I thought that I understood the scoring system but I guess I was wrong. How does getting the furs connected help?

I think the increased happiness would boost our score. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

We have furs already-you don't get an extra happy face if you have more than one source of a lux.

The point difference could be a couple of things I suppose. Maybe the other teams got some decent goody huts for techs. My only guess this early in the game is that maybe they are a) up on techs or b) settled earlier. I don't think it is anything to worry about though. Hopefully KB isn't too busy this weekend and can get a set in. If Marconos wanted to post a "got it" first, would anybody object to flipping their order to keep the game going?

We have furs already-you don't get an extra happy face if you have more than one source of a lux.

Sorry, I thought we weren't connected to one yet.

Sorry for being MIA for a day or two, this weekend has been a bit busy. I'll be able to get to this Sunday night.

Preturn- We look good.

1450

We kill barbs and get gold.

1350

Granary completes. With nothing better to build, I start on Heroic epic.

1200

We lose our archer attacking a barb camp.

1175-1000

Not much


Summary

We're close to Map Making and completing Heroic Epic. I played an extra turnset so that MB could fix our save and we can get on with this game asap.

I'am really sorry for beeing away for so long. If you are willing to play with me, i'am in. Hi Mauer, nice to see you are back. Can someone give me a short description of your goings??

Hey, welcome back Detlef. I thought my pikeman would never return :p

I'am happy to have some more time now. The last few weeks, i was only able to play fast one turn PBEM's (also a lot of fun). How many units do we have and do we know our first AI to kill?

If I remember correctly, Detlef, we have about four units right now, and we have not met any AI yet. Once we get Map Making that will change in a hurry.
We should really start building up some archers.

Welcome back!

Got it ... will play tonight.

Great! We have a full team now!

Detlef, as you have probably seen our playing order is:
KB
marconos
Tone
Detlef
Mauer
Taliesin

If you are eager to get stuck in please feel free to switch our positions in the roster if you want to play straight after marconos. You'll be up soon either way so a well timed entrance!

Adjust research down so we get map making in 5 turns. The heroic epic is being built???? We will not have that complete for 5 more turns. Since we need the cache more when we gen troops I will back it down. I thought the plan was to prebuild military and then when close a galley?

1) 975 BC zzzzz

IBT: See barb horseman running around

2) 950 BC zzzzz

IBT: Barb horseman kills our scout .. oh well it saves on money.

3) 925 BC Adjust research down some more

IBT: Heroic Epic is completed
1 turn early due to city growth. Set city to build settler as a prebuild for a galley.

4) 900 BC zzzz

IBT: Mapmaking complete .. set to the wheel at minimum

5) 875 BC Change production to galley
We are screwed up here big time. We have barbs all over 1 stinkin archer and need to build galleys for exploration. What happened to building an army???
6) 850 BC zzzzz

7) 825 BC zzzzzz

IBT: Galley -> Archer ... we have to have some troops to get rid of these barbs.

8) 800 BC zzzzz

IBT: Archer -> Archer

9) 775 bc zzzzz

10) 750 BC zzzzz


Bringing workers back to chop the forest under the game and then irrigate it. I'm thinking the forest chop would be best used on a harbor?

We are really lacking in troops here.

Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Tone_SG005_BC0750_01.SAV)

TEAM TONE - IMPORTANT:

Please note that you were supposed to wait for your game file to be corrected for the bug at 1000BC. I notice you have posted a 750 BC save.

I am holding until I know that our 1000BC save has been corrected which may mean that you will need to replay the last ten turns, marconos! I will PM M-B now for advice on how to proceed.

edit: tried to PM M-B but his mailbox is full! Sent it to AlanH instead!

Adjust research down so we get map making in 5 turns. The heroic epic is being built???? We will not have that complete for 5 more turns. Since we need the cache more when we gen troops I will back it down. I thought the plan was to prebuild military and then when close a galley?

So did I. Instead we have a granary and the Heroic Epic and here I was worrying that all our troops would be a drain on the ecomomy!

Bringing workers back to chop the forest under the game and then irrigate it. I'm thinking the forest chop would be best used on a harbor?

We are really lacking in troops here.

I think that the forest chop can coincide with an archer build to get two in consecutive turns. In think we need troops more than a harbour at the moment. We can always build that once our first wave of troops leaves our shores if our unit costs are high and we think that we need it.

Until then I would say that we need to build a couple of troops to get the barbs under control, a couple of galleys for exploration and then troops, troops and finally more troops for good measure!

Sorry guys, but in all fairness I have to fix the games at 1000BC. You will need to replay from 1000BC once I and Alan have fixed your save. I will let you know when it is done (about 4 to 6 hours I hope).

Can someone make a screenie of our world?
Conquest without settlers and perhaps no AI's around us, means we have to capture theire citys somewhere else. This also means we need a palace jump and i think it's useless to build too much improvements (buildings) at our capitol. It brings us only costs at the moment and we need each cent for our forces.
I'am also not shure if archers are the best way. They have a bad upgradeability. Warriors are cheaper and they can be upgraded to sword and MI.
So or so our first goal have to be found the first enemy.

Warriors are cheaper and have a better upgrade, but we have plans on making an early strike. Possibly against the first civ we meet, and gonna have a tough time taking down spears with warriors. I like warriors better too, but an small stack of archers has a much better chance. I'm thinking a harbor probably would have been a little better than the Heroic Epic.

So from here, I'm thinking consecutive archer builds is probably the best way for now. My 2 cents. Or we could build warriors for upgrades, and a few galleys for exploration in hopes of contacts and trades.

I won't be able to play till later this week. So since the turns have to be redone then you will need to skip me this round.

Your mended 1000BC save has been uploaded. Alanh will delete the 750BC save soon. :)

Ok if marconos can't play until later this week I shall play the turns he played from 1000BC once the save is there.

I know that archers cannot be upgraded until much later on but I'm not keen on warriors against spears. Maybe our second wave can contain a few warriors but we need to hit them hard (when we finally find them :D ). We would need more warriors and unit cost will then become too much of an issue IMO.

I think the best idea, as stated above, is archers for the short term. Warriors would be nice, for upgrading that is, but I'm not all to certain this would even be possible with the economy we are going to have. We'll never have a large treasury in the ancient age for such an upgrade of noticable proportions.

Got it and will play now!

Pictures below as requested, Detlef.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=75480&stc=1

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=75477&stc=1

(edit: why can't I see the pictures directly?)

It looks like you put the html tags around it and not IMG.

Turn 0 (1000BC) No changes

Turn1 (975BC) Start moving workers back to Moscow with spear. Finish next to barb!

Turn 2 (950BC) zzz

Turn 3 (925BC) Get MM and go for The Wheel @ min like marconos did. (WE might choose to up research after this go as we could get The Wheel quite quickly) Barb has blocked the road home for our workers.

Turn 4 (900BC) Barb attacks spear and loses. Moscow H-Epic->Archer.

Turn 5 (875BC) zzz

Turn 6 (850BC) archer->archer. Forest chop in 4 so next build will be galley to reap the additional 10 shields. A-hunting we shall go…

Turn 7 (825BC) In position to take first barb camp. Scout has to take evasive action to avoid barb warrior.

Turn 8 (800BC) Archer->galley. Barb camp destroyed and second archer races to join the hunting archer/spear pair.

Turn 9 (775BC) zzz

Turn 10 (750BC) galley->galley. 2 workers irrigate game and the third heads to road N.

Notes:

Spear and 2 archers are hunting party heading for barb camp N of Moscow. I suggest we need a couple of galleys to explore and then some more ground units but if you want to change this order feel free!

If our galley(s) can find sea/ocean routes that will be to our advantage (sorry if that’s obvious but personally I keep forgetting about differential navel movement when switching between games.) Also keep an eye on pop growth as the next citizen will need adjustment (scientist?)

save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Tone_SG005_BC0750_02.SAV)

Welcome to the game, Detlef!

Your build queue sounds good as far as galleys and ground units. I think either horseback riding or IW would have been the next choice for research. I may just be talking out of my behind though, since I haven't opened the save. I will open it up and give my 2 cents once again, as should all of us.

It looks like you put the html tags around it and not IMG.

No, here's what I put in...

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=75500&stc=1

Your build queue sounds good as far as galleys and ground units. I think either horseback riding or IW would have been the next choice for research. I may just be talking out of my behind though, since I haven't opened the save. I will open it up and give my 2 cents once again, as should all of us.

Although I could not replicate marconos' turns exactly (I had to respond to barb activity as an example), I tried to make the same 'important' decisions, hence The Wheel at min. However our treasury is quite healthy and I think we can afford to push the research up for this key tech (but that's just my opinion!) Also barb huts should give a small boost to our income-I forgot how kind the attack bonus is at this level :)

Wow, it looks like a big cake of sh...

OK for the archers at the moment. We should not build more then 8 archers, 1 spear for our capitol and 4 galleys for the transfer of our archers. If we can find an AI with no special AA-unit, we can capture the first two towns in one strike, switch our palace and go on.
At the moment we met the Ai, we should start to build more archer as reinforcement, bevor this search max, after contact search min until we jumped our palace.
This shoul bring us into a better cash flow.

Researching the wheel is a prerequ for horseback riding so essentialy we are speeding to horseback riding. I would recommend upping the research to get The Weel as quickly as possible. We want horses to speed up our aggression.

So essentially, I was talking out of my behind :crazyeye: .

whether we like it or all of have a behind that speaks up now and again ;)

whether we like it or all of have a behind that speaks up now and again ;)
Especially after burritos. I like burritos
:sad:
(_|_)
o
oo
ooo
:vomit: :vomit: :vomit: :vomit: :vomit: :vomit: :vomit:

I apologise for the crudeness of this post :blush:
.
.
.
.

:rotfl:

Cheap, crude entertainment.....I love it.

WOW and all of this from one line in a 10 turn review. ;)

OK for the archers at the moment. We should not build more then 8 archers, 1 spear for our capitol and 4 galleys for the transfer of our archers. If we can find an AI with no special AA-unit, we can capture the first two towns in one strike, switch our palace and go on.

I think that the cash flow and production from our capital is fine at the moment so I am not convinced about an early palace jump. We would lose the Colossus (and H-Epic) and the 10+ sheilds/turn. If we are having an aggressive game we should generate a GL which we could use to rush our FP (or even build by hand at a good site) or just wait a while until we have developed the new towns before abandoning our productive and wealthy capital. I am not against a palace jump in the game but I would like to have more than two cities before we do it but if you experienced warmongers feel the same my opinion can be swayed. :)

ps i also think that we need to keep/build a small band of barb hunters as soon as the raiding party leaves.

Who is playing?

KB
marconos
Tone played
Detlef ??playing??
Mauer up next
Taliesin

uuups, sorry. Got it.

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Tone_SG005_BC0570_01.SAV)

No specials, only this, i found a new coast to the W at 590BC but lost the galley bevor i reached the savety shell.
The next one should go on to this direction.

I hesitate to suggest another wonder build but if that is the nearest coast then maybe we should consider the GLH. We don't need the entertainer and if we put him and the two lake citizens on forest/tundra we could get it in 20 turns. (We just need to up lux tax until the forest is roaded.)

There look like plenty of sea out there and this might enable us to get a safe passage across.

Thats what we didn't know yet. We should also search to the E. I started one galley to this direction.

I got it. Will be at least tomorrow though.

The save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Tone_SG005_BC0350_01.SAV)

Detlef only played 9 turns, so I went ahead and played 11 to even it back out. I made some mistakes, but hopefully they won't have too many reprucussions for us.

Preturn- Change wheel from 23 turns to 10 turns. Affects our bring home by changing it from +7 to +2 gpt. At the end of my turnset, we still have 500g though.
galley->archer
1) 550-nothing

2) 530-nothing

3) 510-archer->archer

4) 490- get 25g from a barb hut, lose a galley at sea

5) 470- archer->archer, lose another galley at sea :eek:

6) 450-nothing

IBT-Spot a tile of new land to the north :cool:

7) 430- barb galley sinks our sole remaining galley :( , up lux to 30% due to pop growth. still in the positive for cash flow. Gives us 2 extra shields for the pop growth. After we lose our last galley I realized that Tone is probably right. I change production to GLH and we should have it in 22 turns.

8) 410- wheel->HBR their are horses to the east near the first site we found. There are a couple of barb horses wandering in that area though. I dispatched an archer/spear/worker group to get it hooked up.

9) 390- nothing

10) 370- lose an archer to a barb hut

11) 350-get 25g from a barb hut

Somebody please tell me what we are doing wrong. We are pretty far behind the other teams, but I for the life of me, can't figure out what the difference could possibly be :confused:


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/newland.JPG

After we lose our last galley I realized that Tone is probably right. I change production to GLH and we should have it in 22 turns.
Possibly. It was only a suggestion and there is still plenty of unexplored coastal waters to the north. However the GLH will enable us to travel at sea giving us safety against the barb ships. Losing a ship is bad enough but losing one with a couple of horsemen on is very painful! ;)

Somebody please tell me what we are doing wrong. We are pretty far behind the other teams, but I for the life of me, can't figure out what the difference could possibly be :confused:
IMO it is what we did wrong, not what we are doing wrong. There is an increased gradient in our graph around the time when we got the granary. Increased pop growth=more happy/content people=more points. What we didn't do was chop the game forest early enough. The shields were nice but the extra 2 food/turn will have given us more people more quickly. Still, we can't change that now. We don't appear to be losing ground on the other teams (apart from those two that have made some conquests) so I don't think we should be that worried. As soon as we start the conquest phase we will catch up as long as we can get there sooner than most.

Just looked at the save BTW. We could save two turns on the GLH build by switching a lake citizen to the mined tundra but this would eliminate any further pop growth and the subsequent cash the extra citizen would generate. Just a thought. :)

I think we should move the lake citizen to the tundra. Wish I would have caught that earlier. Never know when another civ is gonna finish a wonder, and I sure would hate to have a harbor cost that many shields ;)

I forgot to mention; it's good that we have horses but a real shame that we are just one short of 15 shields/turn until we get a higher form of government. A very clever/annoying map design by MB! We could disband the two scouts get two horsemen a turn earlier (in which case we would need to get them back to safety before a barb camp pops up next to them). This would reduce unit costs as well.

Question: I've not had much experience of long supply lines but do barbs try to cut roads between home turf and colonies? If so we need to delay the colony until we can build horsemen and protect that road once horses are connected.

I would just like to add, this being my first OBCC or OCC, this really sucks. Is anyone here experienced with this type of gameplay? After playing my set, I realized that if I were to start a game like this on my own, I would promptly retire :p. So you more experienced variant players need to get to giving some advice ;)

If it were a random map that I was playing on my own I would surely do the same. I guess the fact that all teams are in the same position means that we are all trying to make the best of a bad job and this is what creates the interest. As it's only monarch, once we meet the other civs... :ninja:

I should add that I've only ever played peacful OCC. I just give plenty of opinions hoping that by the law of averages I might talk some sense once in a while so please take what I say in this light;)

It seems as though participation is sporadic at best in our thread. Taliesin surely can recall SGOTM3. We finished rather promptly with quite a bit of good discussion. Forgive me for recollecting :). OH, I miss you zamint3 :cry:

From what I understand KB is quite practiced in this type of gameplay. If I am correct, maybe he could step up and make some in game calls/opinions.

I've played numerous OCCs by myself at Monarch, but only for cultural victories and never with a view to maximising score. So, I'm not much help here. Unfortunately, I don't have time at present to look at our save, and I can't play until Thursday, so whoever is next (KB?) please go ahead.

I personally have never done a OBC Conquest, but have done one 5CC conquest on Deity and am working on another, both in SG form. The thing that seems to be most important when restricting your city numbers is getting the most use out of your units. For example, losing galleys on suicide runs and to barbs hurts us a good deal, as it ties up Moscow for another few turns building more galleys. Getting horses will be very usefull, as it should increase our kill ratio compared to archers. It seems desperate right now, but once we find a target and get some more cities, things will look up.

That said, I've got it if it is indeed my turn.

I have to agree with Kaiser here. We have to stop losing our galleys on suicides. There is no reason for this yet as there are still unexplored water areas and with differential naval movement you can quickly get from one cost to the other with a little planning. Every one of those lost extends our victory by a few turns.

Preturn- Assign lake worker to Tundra for a speed up in GL.

T2 310 BC

I join one of our workers into Moskow to max out the population.

T4 270

Spain completes the Pyramids. We get word of Massive barbarian uprisings near Moscow :sad: Looks like we're further behind than I thought.

T6 230

We lose an archer in a barbarian onslaught.

T10 150

Kill a barb that comes within range of Moscow.


Summary

We need to get more galleys out once the GL is done in 6. They need to head north and find out what is up there. No suicide missions unless absolutely needed. We also need to get our horse colony set up. That should be easily doable in the next turnset. A lot of barbs are impaling themselves on our archer fortified on the mountain, so I suggest letting them continue to do that.

Looks like we're further behind than I thought.

I wonder if we are the isolated civ and the others all have contact with each other?

I wouldn't doubt it. Looking at F10 shows a whole lot of rivals. If they are all stuffed near to each other they'll research at a decent pace, even at Regent.

Please skip me again. I will play on Thursday, but until then, pretend I'm not here.

The thing that seems to be most important when restricting your city numbers is getting the most use out of your units. For example, losing galleys on suicide runs and to barbs hurts us a good deal, as it ties up Moscow for another few turns building more galleys. Getting horses will be very usefull, as it should increase our kill ratio compared to archers. It seems desperate right now, but once we find a target and get some more cities, things will look up.
As soon as I lost those galleys, I knew I messed up. Sorry guys, I guess I was pushing it a little too much :sad: . Oh well, live and learn.

With at least on AI civ in the MA already, that means at the least, that we will be facing swords probably. What kind of tactics could we use on first contact, as far as taking cities anyways. We may have to start by taking one city, pop 2 or higher, and sueing for peace just to get a foot hold.

Whoever plays next might want to think about what to change the GLH to since someone else has surely started on it, and may finish it before us. A harbor would be my first choice. Then working on a fleet of galleys, probably 7 or 8 at minimum. Horses will be good to run to the north to meet up with the galleys while taking care of barbs.

We should also start a road going to the north part of our island, and bypassing that loop we have now. So, we might need another spear, worker for an iron dump if one appears. Just thoughts, and I have no ideas for a build order. Thoughts?

All we can do at the moment, is speculating. At the moment we make our first contact, we can imagine what and how we have to do next.
Our isolated situation, looks like we have to fight an AA war against MA units.
Doable with a lot of cats and horses but very hard. Let's see. :spear:

Got it will play tonight.

Whoever plays next might want to think about what to change the GLH to since someone else has surely started on it, and may finish it before us. A harbor would be my first choice. Then working on a fleet of galleys, probably 7 or 8 at minimum. Horses will be good to run to the north to meet up with the galleys while taking care of barbs.

I say we should stick it out. I haven't looked at the save but I think that we are just 6 turns away from getting it. We might get beaten to it but I think that the gamble is worth the risk. We have been successful with the colossus and we could strike lucky again.

It is only Monarch and the combination of poor worker choices and no production bonus for the AI will work in our favour. Furthermore if there are some wars going on we stand an even better chance. If we lose another six turn of sheilds so be it but we must have invested more than 200 by now and it would be really annoying if no one built it for another couple of hundred years! Let's convert to a harbour if we have no choice.



We should also start a road going to the north part of our island, and bypassing that loop we have now. So, we might need another spear, worker for an iron dump if one appears. Just thoughts, and I have no ideas for a build order. Thoughts?

I agree with the road but held back from voicing this as I was unsure about the barb situation. How is the barb explosion BTW?

Build? I suggest we go for horsemen and galleys. If we get iron later on we could build a stack of warriors and them upgrade them. If we need spears for defence we can always rush them in our newly acquired towns.



Please skip me again. I will play on Thursday, but until then, pretend I'm not here.

Do you want to jump in after marconos to get a turn in before me? I can play Thursday night but I can wait until Friday if you want to get a turn in. Let me/us know here!

I say we should stick it out.
Oh no, I didn't mean abandon it all together. I just meant if we ARE actually beat to it, it would probably be best to go ahead and switch it to a harbor. :p
I agree with the road but held back from voicing this as I was unsure about the barb situation. How is the barb explosion BTW?
Build? I suggest we go for horsemen and galleys. If we get iron later on we could build a stack of warriors and them upgrade them. If we need spears for defence we can always rush them in our newly acquired towns.
The warrior upgrade sounds like a good thing to keep in the list of possibles. I was suggesting the spear to dispatch with the worker to safegaurd against barbs, which BTW are in the middle of a MA uprising. The road would be at good work for the horses trampling up and down it for our hopeful ship chain up north. All this assuming, of course, that the spotted land to the north belongs to a civ or one is nearby.

Sorry. My misunderstanding! :blush:

No problem, see the burrito post a page or 2 back. :)

Startup: No gallies at all we are in trouble.

IBT: Egypt finishes the great lighthouse.

1) 130 BC Switch production for GLight to Harbor .. lose 150 shields.

IBT: Harbor -> Galley

2) 110 BC zzzz

IBT: We complete HBR switch to IW bump size up to 60% will have at 9 turns costing 27 gold ... we really need it.

3) 90 BC Establish colony on horses

IBT:

4) 70 BC zzzz

IBT : Horseman in our land start destryoing improvements. Why do we have no troops and no galleys??? Why did we build the wonders and granery? We are in very bad shape here guys.

we finally get a galley .. start building another one

5) 50 BC zzzz

IBT: Barb destroy our luxury connection.

6) 30 BC Bump lux up to 40% now -6 gpt. Move archer out and kill barb.

IBT: zzzz

7) 10 BC begin connecting lux back up

IBT: Galley -> Horesman .. we have to deal with the barbs

8) 10 AD zzzz

IBT: More barb show up around the city

9) 30 AD .. kill one horseman. Have to give up on luxury as barbs will kill worker and we have no troops to do anything with.

IBT: zzz

10) 50 AD more archer back into city .. barb horseman are fortied in forest and we can't take a chance at loosing 33% of our army.

At this point we are doing pathetic. We wasted a ton of resource building wonders and suicide galleys. We are in horrible shape. At this point we have to make military, military and military to take care of the barbs and hopefully one of our galley's can make it. The 1st galley I sent out has already killed 3 barb ships.

Do you want to jump in after marconos to get a turn in before me? I can play Thursday night but I can wait until Friday if you want to get a turn in. Let me/us know here!
I'll jump in Thursday afternoon. This is my got-it.

IBT : Horseman in our land start destryoing improvements. Why do we have no troops and no galleys??? Why did we build the wonders and granery? We are in very bad shape here guys.

At this point we are doing pathetic. We wasted a ton of resource building wonders and suicide galleys. We are in horrible shape. At this point we have to make military, military and military to take care of the barbs and hopefully one of our galley's can make it. The 1st galley I sent out has already killed 3 barb ships.

OK we need an agreed strategy. I think some of the points above are a little harsh as we could not have just built military units continually and held our economy together but marconos is correct in that we need a balanced build sequence.

1.I think our first priority is the barbs on land. We need to be able to defend our own ground and so we need a few horsemen as our first builds.

2.Second priority is contact with other civs so we need some more galleys but only once we can deal with roaming barbs and start to get at the camps. We need to kill the camps because they will just spawn more galleys. marconos may have killed three barb galleys with one (vet) ship but I'm sure I won't be so lucky! Our shields are better spent on barb killers than galleys that will become barb fodder until the barb encapments are at a reasonable proportion.

3.I also suggest that we fully explore the sea/ocean to the north (returning top coastal waters each turn) before risking suicide galleys. I suspect that suicide galleys will be needed as no civs have made contact with us yet. This suggests to me that there is no safe path but we need to explore all posibilities first before we know this to be true.

4.Finally switch research off after IW. We need the cash and it will be much cheaper to buy the techs once we make contact

Of course the above are just my priorities. If you disagree please voice your own suggested strategy. What I am suggesting though is that we follow a game plan agreed by all and only deviate from it in exceptional circumstances (posting here before changing the plan?) to avoid team members getting frustrated. We are meant to be playing this for fun!

double post!

I agree with Tone's plan. I think it covers all areas of concern. And to everyone, let's not get too frustrated. Remember, this is still Regent. Once we get rolling it won't be that bad. People have escaped from worse on Regent. I remember an SG where Arathorn waited around 100 turns to found the first city on a regent level game, and they still pulled it out fairly easily.

Agree it is regent difficulty and we are still going to win but things are pretty sad at this point. We just haven't seemed to have a set strategy.

I got two galleys out and both are heading to the N area. As well I cleaned up a ton of barbs and a horseman is due next round. I agree with Tone's plan. We need 4 - 5 horseman on our island to keep it safe. After that we have to start cranking out galleys to reach the new land.

My statements were harsh but I felt I had to say something as we appear to be floundering around with no real direction.

Okay. I'll do my best to follow the plan.

The save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Tone_SG005_AD0250_01.SAV)

70 AD Start another horse.
IBT Finish Iron Working, cut to 0%. There are 3 irons on the island, including two fairly close to Moscow.
90AD +11gpt.
130 AD Horse produced. Border spotted to the north!
190 AD Another horse. Contact America, Spain, Egypt!!
I make the following trades:
America-- WM and 280g for Ceremonial Burial, Masonry, Philosophy, and Code of Laws.
Egypt-- WM and 50g for Mathematics.
Spain-- Mathematics, WM, 40g for Mysticism, contact with India, and WM.
250 AD Another horse. Begin galley.

Barbarians are now well in hand. I killed 11 barbs and disbanded a camp, earning two promotions in the process. We have four horsemen and an archer stationed around the island (one of them is going to the northeast peninsula to hunt), and a worker is en route to building a road to the northern iron.

Tech situation: America, Egypt and Spain all have Literature; America has Republic; Egypt has Polytheism. We're pretty much in the ballgame now, at least with these civs.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Tone1.JPG

We have to decide who to :nuke: first. I've started to build the fleet, and once iron is connected we'll be on the way. Good points: we don't need to cross any sea to conquer; we can build catapults.
Anyway, let's all enter our opinions on the conquest. My inclination is to strike either Spain or India first, since they are the smallest. India is farther and has worse territory, while Spain is stronger militarily and would give us two fronts to defend. I'm leaning toward Spain.

It seems that there are several that agree with my initial statement, that my turn really sucked. Well, your points ring true and sting a little. So, I will post when I'm done sulking.

I disagree, Mauer. The way I see it marconos' points were not directed at any one player's turn but at the overall situation. I therefore used that post to mean that we need direction/strategy (leadership?) and as the team is named in my honour(?) I took it upon myself to suggest one. I feel a little uncomfortable in doing this as I am aware that there are several (5 ;) ) players in the team that have a higher standard of play than me but I thought that if I get the ball rolling then someone else can tell me when I am suggesting ridiculus ideas and come up with something better. To all you veteran players out there: please put me right and suggest strategies!!!!!!!!!!!

On a different note, now that Taliesin has regained the turn missed we can revert back to our standard order:

KB
marconos
Tone playing
Detlef
Mauer
Taliesin

Consider this a 'got it' but given the dramatic developments during Taliesin's turn I intend to not play until Saturday afternoon/evening. In the meantime if you are able to look at the save and give your thoughts on builds and who our first target should be that would be much appreciated. (That includes you, Mauer; this is no time for sulking! :D )

In particular I would like guidance on cats. As marconos and KB may remember me saying from the previous game, I hate them with a passion!

As we have horses I would just build 10-12 horses, 5-6 galleys and go get us some towns, rushing spears in the new towns to help stop flips and protect against counters. However as it won't be me attacking you need to put me right on this one if you want cats and/or spears.

Without having had time to look at the save, I favour a strike on Spain if we are going to jump palace sooner rather than later.

I will look at the save tonight by which time I will have changed my mind on everything but now I'm late for work!

Alright, things are looking up here :goodjob:

Though I'm not entirely sure who our first target should be, I think we should just go with horses. We really can't afford to tinker around with cats right now and hope they help. Noramally I like all arty units, but here I think we can forget them for now. The retreat ability of the Horseman makes up for no bombardemnt help.

These are all me opinions ... so take them for what they are worth.

1) I am only a Monarch difficulty player and my thoughts were directed at you Mauer. I was just frustrated that we seemed to be floundering.
2) Skip the cats ... I hate those thing and they next to nothing until you get cannons anyway.
3) Horses Horses Horses and don't worry about swordsman. We should speed to Knights and skip everything else along the way. We can win this with Knights ... It's regent difficult.
4) Attack spain and leave India. India is scientific right? Attack at the border betwen India and Spain. Make an alliance ith India and bring them in with us against Spain. It will keep both of them weaker.
5) Build a second city or two and don't tell Mad-Bax :mischief:

At this point we need to be very aggressive and a little risky. We have some ground to make up and with regeant difficulty we don't have to worry too much about conterattacks.

No it becomes fun instead of work. :)

India is scientific right?

Wrong! commercial and religious. None of our contacted rivals are scientific, unless the traits have been altered. I'll check with ainwood's civassist when I download the save.



Attack at the border betwen India and Spain.

America?



Make an alliance ith India and bring them in with us against Spain. It will keep both of them weaker.

I'm a bit worried about attacking India or getting them involved in a tough fight as there are ruins inbetween India and America and it looks as if India came off worse. I haven't looked at F8 yet though. Maybe the power graph will tell a different story.



At this point we need to be very aggressive and a little risky. We have some ground to make up and with regeant difficulty we don't have to worry too much about conterattacks.

I just think that we need a strong first wave 'cos it's a long treck for the second wave to make and nowhere for the injured to hide before reinforcements arrive. We just need to make sure that we get a foothold on the continent. Once we have that I agree totally. We can (must) be more adventurous than in SGOTM4 ;) BTW this is when I need you to vent your frustrations out on me as I'm a reformed builder (but trying hard to become a warmonger) and I know over-cautiousness is my weakness. :D

If Inida and American are the neighbors then hit america. I would like to hit the country that borders india. I thought that was Spain. If I was wrong the hit america.

I'm not worried about having a space for troops to "recover". This is regeant difficulty and counterattacks are small to none. If we hit with 6 - 8 horseman we can do some major damage with just that. As well we should build a road from our home city to the N tip to speed up shuttling troops and reduce the need for many more galleys.

Course ... I could be wrong.

I understand about Regent weaknesses. I only want us to make sure that we don't fall just short of taking a town as then we will spend ages waiting for troops to heal (once they have got into no-mans-land) and then regrouping for a second try whilst their defenders also heal. I say we hit them hard so that they cannot recover quickly enough. Are we agreed on 8 horsemen or do I need to be pushed to live on the edge and just go for 6? :) If so we have almost this number so galleys will be the priority build in my first turns.

Why are you interested in attacking India's neighbours, marconos? My reasons for Spain are that although there are two borders, they are very narrow and the terrain is good for us. America is very strong (too strong for an amphibious assault initially) and has massive borders with India. Because of this, my prefered option is Spain->secure SW border and attack Am (with India)->Egypt->consider India as next victim. I agree with you that India is worth keeping around, as a weak commercial civ is good for trading (for a while at least) but why attack America first? The only advantage I can see is that we can land on the continent and then give a DoW on the turn we strike so what am I missing?

BTW I think Taliesin has got a northern road started so we should be OK there.

I would prefer to hit Spain-- there are only four cities, so it should be quick if we do it right. I think it's important to gain a toehold, and it would be best to do so as soon as possible, so we can start pumping out units on the continent. My fear about America is that if we were to attack and then see the attack stall, we would have problems with holding and consolidating our gains.

Things looking good now. We should attack Spain. Only horses, we need to be fast. 12 should be enough to take the first 2 or 3 citys.

Just downloaded the save. Spain has two more cities away from it's core; one in Egypt and one on an island near us. We have a massive culture lead over all civs so we will have no problem holding onto any gains we make.

We have only one worker so I won't build an iron colony but look to road northwards from Moscow instead.

We have two galleys and four horsemen. Current build is a galley. When we have two more I'll switch to horsemen. This will give the galleys a chance to get towards the northern jump point.

Turn 1 (260) Kill a couple of barbs.
Turn 2 (270) Destroy a camp.
Turn 3 (280) galley->galley. French have built the GW and Celts the GLib. Destroy another barb camp.
Turn 4 (290) Arabs have built H-Gardens!
Turn 5(300) zzz
Turn 6 (310) galley->horse.
Turn 7 (320) zzz
Turn 8 (330) Kill another barb camp.
Turn 9 (340) horse->horse. I’m sorry guys, I forgot about the river when building the road. Should build round to the south of it so replace worker and start next road section again!
Turn 10 (350) zzz

It appears that most people favour an attack on Spain. We can start to drop off some horsemen on a tundra tile just outside valencia if you want. Barbs pop up very quickly so I suggest we leave a few horse around on mountains to protect our supply lines. There are still stacks of barbs around in the outlying areas but we really only need to worry about those if they threaten our horses or northern road.

save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Tone_SG005_AD0350_01.SAV)

We should leave Valencia until after we conquer the mainland.
It looks like we'll be conquering the other continent with knights, and maybe even cavalry, if those civs are already near the MA.

Sorry, I didn't mean Valencia. I can't see on the screen shot what the town is called but it's south of Barcalona. I agree that we leave the outlying towns alone so that we can sue for peace and get their techs. As I said before, we need not fear too much against flips as our culture is far superior.

Oh, I forgot to add that India had a small town detroyed SSE of America so I think that those two are already at war. Maybe it involves other civs and we could catch them all having weakened military.

Detlef, I believe it's your turn.

OK, 'got it'. Lets see what we can build.

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Tone_SG005_AD0450_01.SAV)

OK, no real specials.
We are producing 1 horse every 3 turns. That means, we have now 3 barbcatcher horses and 5 ready to ship. I think we need 7 more for our first strike.
The same for our ships, 4 galleys and the need of two more.

At 420, i traded with egypt: polytheism <-> world+185g We are behind the others and we should go as fast as possible to knights.
I think monarchy is the best way for us.
Two barb camps at 440 and 450 healed our treasury a little bit with 25g each.

Ok need to clear something up here. Which turn order are we using the first one or the second one? Basically am I after Kaiser or Detlef?? I believe I am after Kaiser correct?


Let's hit spain with 8 horses. Waiting for the other I believe would be a mistake. We have to get the 1st new cities going as quickly as possible. In my previous to SGOTM's we haven't been aggressive enough. I don't want to make that mistake this time. Remember it's only regeant level difficulty.

KB
marconos
Tone
Detlef (done)
Mauer (got it)
Taliesin

Sorry I have not been posting the last few days. I have read all the posts and will do my best to follow along what everybody wants. I wish we had a spear or two to ship over to Spain. The Horses can retreat, but unless we capture a city can not regenerate. I just wonder what kind of defenses/counterattack they might have. On regent probably not much, but weakened horses aren't much for swords or even archers. I think marconos is right regardless. We don't have time to waste, but should be conservative with our units. Like my last turnset...lol :)

Remember as well that spain currently does not have horses. So their units will have to take a turn in our land to get into position allowing your horses to attack them and then move back into the city.

One of the reasons I wanted to go after American 1st was then had 2 of the 3 horses that I saw on the continent. Egypt has a city on top of the third one. If we can keep the computer from having horses/iron it will make our job much much easier.

OK, let's try your tactic marconos. It's a game and i wanna see what happens.

We have one spear in Moscow which we can ship over. Will that be enough? Then we can pop rush the rest with our newly acquired citizens.

One reason why I want to be slightly cautious with our numbers is that I would like to give wounded troops time to heal. A small expeditionary force will mean that we need to field the counter-attack with troops not at full health but a few extra troops will ensure that we take the first target and have more troops to deal with any reply. I also like to strike fast and hard before the enemy can switch any production from buildings to units. More troops means that we hurt them harder before they can reorganise. This is particularly true if it is Spain that is destroying Indian cities as we could KO their key cities before their main army gets back home.

However I can see that some sort of compromise is needed as one horse every three turns is far too slow. Can I at least suggest again that our current 'spare' troops are sent into unclaimed territory near spain now so that we have some ships waiting to take the second wave as soon as these additional units are produced rather than having to wait for transports to get back from Spain after the first wave is dropped off.

marconos, I see your reasoning about America but I think it is important to get a foothold on the continent first and then hit the strongest rival. I just don't think we have the production to deal with them yet.

Re confusion in playing order, I will edit my post on page 1 to make the actual playing order clear. Nice to see a discussion starting up again after a barren couple of days :)

With us getting horses every 3 turns, does that mean Moscow is at 14spt? If so, it would be beneficial if we could get it to grow to the point where the foodbox is full while still maintaining over 10spt. Once it is full, we can get it up to 15spt for a while by letting the additional food be burnt off, then rinse and repeat. This will at least give us spurts of getting horses at a two turn pace. Then again, I'm not sure whether or not its possible, but it is something to look into.

Nice idea! :goodjob:

I think that we can only get 15 shields by taking a citizen off the game which means a loss of 3 food/turn for two turns but we could then take two citizens off tundra onto the lake tiles (if we are not already using them) to regrow at 2 food per turn for three turns. This will give two horsemen every 5 turns and food will be balanced. I don't think that we are using the lake but if we are, the bad news is that we have nowhere left to get the pop regrowth.

I don't think we have the power to take on America right now. Send the barb-killers right now, and then pop-rush spears in Spain.
Should our next conquest (America, probably) be with swords?

I concede on going after america. I agree move our barb hunters over their now. We need to get troops their as quickly as possible. If we can do the increase speed in production by chaninging things in moscow let's do it.

But we're still doing Spain first, right?

@marconos: Not the barb hunters otherwise someone will have a turn like your last one. Detlef reported that we have 5 ready to ship so let's get those shipped right away!

@Taliesin: Yes we are going for Spain first (or at least that is my understanding!). I think the swords is a valid idea. We can make up for our poor production by not connecting the iron yet and going for a mass upgrade. How does 20-30 warriors sound once our unit support figures go up with few Spanish cities under our control?

I like the sound of the warrior uprgrade idea. They'll be a bit slower, but it will be more economical.

If we are going to be driving to Chivalry and Knights does making the warriors/swordsman slow down that at all? Or are we better off just getting a massive number of troops?

Upgrades for that many swordsman is going to be very expensive at 60g a pop. It is a very good idea if you have the money to spare, but with only one city (for now) that could be a problem. We'll get it figured out though. As we are preparing for Spain, I will not concentrate on the warriors for my turnset.

I think we should still definetly head for some knights in the future, and I would definetly advocate building more horses once we're closer to chivalry. Right now though, I think we'll end up getting more bang for our buck from warrior upgrades. And also, I think the cost should only be 40g for an upgrade, seeing as this is [ptw], not [c3c], unless MB changed that up, but I don't see why he would.

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Tone_SG005_AD0550_01.SAV)

460 T1- Move spear and horse from moscow to ships. Adjust population/granary in take as discussed. Still making horses every 3 turns. 25g from barb hut.

470 T2- war --> horse

480 T3- 25g from a barb hut

490 T4- nothing

500 T5- horse --> horse

510 T6- 25g from a barb hut. Galleys full and set sail to Spain.

520 T7- Celts, Japs, Iroquois, France, and Arabia all contact us. All want 60g for lit. I trade 63g to Celts for TM and lit.

530 T8- contact china and zulu

540 T9- 25g from barb hut

550 T10- nothing. Expeditionary force should be able to land in Spain next turn.

We have an Egyptian city and an American city on our continent now. Can't wait for more to follow, so we can capture some cities close to home. I tried to get Monarchy, as everyone but Spain, China, and India has it, but no sellers yet.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/minimap1.JPG

If America is the one taking Indian cities, they are purging them. Alot of razed cities. I saw 2 Indian cities razed between the last turn, and had second guesses about sending the horses to finish off the Indians. Still a possiblity, unless America has alread surrounded Indias 2 remaining cities.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/attack.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/India.JPG

Spanish culture has expanded its borders so we would need to declare before landing if we are to preserve our rep. If India is taking a beating, perhaps we should attack them first but if they can stay in the game we might be able to get some tech trade with them. This many civs will mean that research will be fast by minarch standards.

I agree that warriors should not be built yet as we cannot afford too many units. Also long term we need to go for horse units but in the medium term if we are going to take on America we will need a decent number of strong units. We may therefore need to consider a number of warriors upgrading to swords to get them quickly before this game runs away from us!

We have an Egyptian city and an American city on our continent now. Can't wait for more to follow, so we can capture some cities close to home.

I don't understand! As long as our colonies are safe we can let them continue to settle and then take at out leisure. Particularly if it's civs from our first target continent. (Or am I missing something obvious!)

Edit: I misread the post. :blush: Sorry!

Okay, I'm here. I've got the save, but I'll hold off on playing until tomorrow so we can discuss exactly how we should make our war upon... um, something other than Middle-Earth that retains the poetic potency... anyway, you know what I mean.

My opinion, go straight for Madrid. Then see what develops. The unfortunate part of the situation is that both Spain and India are (other than us) the farthest behind in techs. Neither one of them have Monarchy either, so it would be pointless now to take them on without the intent to take as many cities as possible.

Agreed!

this is just to make the message long enough

An ugly turnset, though through no fault of my own. I think we're well on our way out the egress into the dumpster, to turn a phrase.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Tone2.JPG
This is the situation at the end of the turns.

560 AD Barb camp dissolved. DoW on Spain.
570 AD Begin producing warriors, 1/turn, which continues for the rest of the turnset. Rejig Moscow to gain food. Unload to forest east of Madrid.
IBT Fend off a Spanish swordsman.
580 AD Kill 2 spearmen and a swordman defending Madrid; lose 3 horses.
IBT Lose spearman, horse. France is building the Sistine Chapel! :eek:
590 AD MM Moscow and reduce entertainment spending. Lose 3 horses.
IBT Lose last horse in Spain.
600 AD Galleys speeding homeward, a few turns in progress.
610 AD Lose a galley to Spain without damaging the other galley.
IBT Worker destroyed by an unforeseen barb making use of our roads. The Arabs are building Leo's! :eek:
620 AD Dissolve another barb camp.
630 AD Another barb camp.
IBT Spain offers peace for 340g, which I obviously reject. America destroys India. Spain and Mongolia land settlers on our land.
640 AD zzz
IBT Spain and Mongolia settle. Spain's site is called "Aldea di Ribannah". I'm not sure what Aldea means, maybe Mauer can help us out there.
650 AD Another barb camp.

So, the invasion was really, really terrible, and we're dead unless we can mount another one quickly. We have a good number of warriors we can upgrade, but we need to get another worker up there to connect the iron. The galleys are home and ready to transport from the northern terminus of our road. Incidentally, we can now trade for Monarchy, but it will cost us a good deal-- around 300g and our WM.

The save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Tone_SG005_AD0650_01.SAV)

Spain's site is called "Aldea di Ribannah". I'm not sure what Aldea means, maybe Mauer can help us out there.
Village (I believe). This is a throwback to when Cracker did GOTM and named some of the towns in honour of top players who participated in the comp at that time

Incidentally, we can now trade for Monarchy, but it will cost us a good deal-- around 300g and our WM.
My view is that we can't afford it right now. We need to get cities so we need to upgrade those warriors, although we should try to get a higher form of government soon as the despot bonus is costing us plenty of gold and production (due to lack of food from the bonus squares).

I say connect the iron next turn and upgrade what we have. We can always disconnect and build another worker to reconnect again when/if we want to.

Man, that sucks. Lose 7 horses and a spear while only taking down 2 spears and a single sword! What type of terrain was it on? Rivers and such? I had removed my battle assesment program a couple of months ago, does anybody know what the odds on that are? Looks like were getting ourselves between a rock and a hard place.

Sometime the RNG turns to crap. Hopefully the next persons sets will have better luck.

Man, that sucks. Lose 7 horses and a spear while only taking down 2 spears and a single sword! What type of terrain was it on? Rivers and such? I had removed my battle assesment program a couple of months ago, does anybody know what the odds on that are? Looks like were getting ourselves between a rock and a hard place.

There was no river. It was even odds, except for the slight natural defence bonus.

We seem to have lost momentum. I thought that we were keen to play a 24/48 system!

KB (up next)
marconos
Tone
Detlef
Mauer
Taliesin (played)

Are you out there KB?

I think you are right Tone. I know KB doesn't take his SGs too lightly though. I'm sure he will post soon..? As far as skipping him, I'll leave that to the Team Leader Tone :p



@Taliesin-Sorry, after re-reading my post, I think it may appear to have been harsh. Didn't mean it that way though. I meant the circumstances sucked, not your gameplay :crazyeye:

No offence taken-- I was just clarifying.

Sorry for the delay everyone. I've come up in several games at once right during my finals week :crazyeye: Insanity, I tell you.

I should be able to get to this tomorrow or so, but if one of you would like to to step in before then to keep things rolling, be my guest. I hate when I cause a hold up like this.

I think you are right Tone. I know KB doesn't take his SGs too lightly though. I'm sure he will post soon..? As far as skipping him, I'll leave that to the Team Leader Tone :p

From my experience last game I thought it was unusual. I wasn't having a go at KB as such. We've had a few hold ups and they seem to coincide with the weekends! I would just like people to post if they can't play their turn so that we can keep the game rolling along at a fair pace.

Team Leader? me? :eek: I just have the shortest forum name. I thought we were a democracy and I was just the figurehead. :D


I should be able to get to this tomorrow or so, but if one of you would like to to step in before then to keep things rolling, be my guest.

Cheers KB and good luck with your finals, or if they're now over I hope they went well :)

Over to you (if you can step in), marconos, KB can fit in after you or me once he's cleared his backlog.

Team Leader? me? :eek: I just have the shortest forum name. I thought we were a democracy and I was just the figurehead. :D
Who are you trying to kid? We're no where near democracy. We're still in despotism my fearless leader! :p

Well then, I'd better not crack the whip otherwise we'll lose some team members!

Got it will play tonight. Was busy over the weekend and didn't think I would come up so didn't get a chance to check the forums.

Hopefully we can turn things around a little.

Sounds good on the play order. Thing have already cleared up considerably and I should have no problem pumping this one out once marconos has had a spin.

OK, so the playing order for this round is:

marconos (playing)
KB (up next)
Tone
Detlef
Mauer
Taliesin

and then we can swap back to usual again.

Startup: Switch production from warrior to worker to connect up the Iron.

IBT: Spain Settler/archer arrive on our island

1) 660 AD: Worker is produced. Up Lux to get growth and warrior in one turn. Will put entertainer back on next turn.
Kill Spanish archer and get 2 slaves .. figures now that we produced a worker.

IBT: American settler appears

2) 670 AD: Take out barb camp.

IBT:

3) 680