SGOTM5 - Russia. Game Thread Team Ivan.

Hi everyone, and welcome to the SGOTM5 Game thread.

Note: EVERYONE will have to install the correct resource graphics whether or not they have played SGOTM4.


Here is the start position.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5-starta.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5-startb.jpg

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Russia
World size - Large, 25% land give or take.
Difficulty Regent - but plays harder.
The map is handbuilt, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

Here are a couple of links you might find useful.

The original GOTM23 Announcement. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/gotm23_arabs.shtml)
The Constitution (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1733966&postcount=61)
The GOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=71788)
SGOTM5 Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=105346)

This Months' sponsored variant is OBCC - One Built City Conquest the rules for which are as follows.

1. You may never build a settler.
2. You must win by conquest victory condition.

Hi everybody, checking in.

Hi peoples... My first SGOTM here!

Hello, Checking in.

Checking in.
Conehead is team leader, as agreed. Let's decide if we are playing the variant or not, and the order of play. I can start, but I'm sure that both Conehead and AdrianE can do it. If we are playing the variant (OBCC) we must discuss the location and time when we build our only city. I think our first tech must be iron working. Also, i believe that to find the best place for our city all 3 units must go in differrent directions.

I wanna do the variant.

Scout north, worker southwest, settler east? I would build it as soon as we see good land.

EDIT: Iron Wroking sounds good.

I think we should go for the variant. I have done past 5 built cities conquest on Emperor and Diety. I believe we can keep the cities that we capture so we need to find a nice spot, build up an army and take the nearest tribe down. Then maybe we leave them with one or 2 cities so they can full in the spaces by our capital, so we can grab those cities. Once the save is able to be downloaded, I will start us off it you want.

Edit: I think we should scout south because there are 2 rivers leading that way.

Edit: I think we should scout south because there are 2 rivers leading that way.
May be scout west (motng) and rest south?

I got the save, do you want me to move the scout and then bring it back to the thread for discussion about what to do next? I think east, then south will be better so we can end the turn on the mountian.

EDIT: Or we can go straight for any of the three mountians with the scout.

I'm also in for the variant, as I haven't played such a variant before.
I agree with taking down the nearest civ, BUT not exterminate it, so the AI can settle again near us.

The scout could go to either of the 2 mountains that have a river, for a start.

btw: it's sad that we can't have a settler out of a goody hut.

We definetly want a coastal city, with 25% land on the map, and, if possible, a strong-shield coastal city(I just hope that we settle in an area with few coast squares to work, and plenty of grassland, although I wouldn't be surprised to see us in a tundra-island, if "someone" has made it difficult!)

Edited

So do you want me to play a few turns to see what I can find and then bring it back to the forums.

If you want - I'd prefer it, so the other players can have an opinion/idea about the map.

Ok will play a few turns now.

Turn 0- Send Scout west, then west again onto the mountian. It spots a cattle on a BG with a river and a coast. Worker moves SE and settler moves SW.

Turn 1- Scout 2 west onto cattle, a BG and a forest game across a sound is found. Also there is more tundra. Worker SE onto mountian and a wheat and a BG is found on a river to the SE. Settler South.

Turn 2- Scout moves 2 south, finds another game and a fur. The game I spotted last turn is across a straight and we cannot reach it. I will take the game back to the forums here.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Team_Ivan_SGOTM_5_3900_BC.JPG

My hunch is to settler to the west, as I think the eastern patch won't be much better. Maybe on the tile that the scout in on? there is no other way to get the cow and the game without settling on a BG.

The game I spotted last turn is across a straight and we cannot reach it.

What's a "straight"? I don't see why we cannot reach the game on the forest.

Really, I don't know what to say for this map: do we have any chances of finding more grassland? If there's more grassland near the wheat, we could settle there and make a colony on the furs later on.

What do you think?

The straight is the waterway to the west, it is not on the picture. Do you see that coast across the waterway? There is a hut over there also. I see no obvious land route to that land. This looks like a tundra happy map so city sites will be scarce. There may be more grassland to the north. I could send the scout up that way while the worker goes SE and the settler SW.

Yes, do what you said with our units. I also had a feeling before the start, that this island would mostly be a tundra island.

Betwween the 2 sites that we can see until now, which one would you prefer?
I guess that another food bonus is "hiding" behind that wheat, so all the corners of the island are, somewhat, "equal" in grassland and bonuses.

I would perfer the spot where the scout is on right now. But who knows what else may turn up. Anyway, we will need a coastal city. And we don't have to worry about a granery. If I settle where the scout is, how does Scout, Worker, Warrior sound?

I was thinking the same about starting with a scout, to benefit a bit from our trait.

As for worker and then warrior, I haven't any objection. We'll need another worker anyway.

Rest of Turn 2- Worker south, Settler SW. Settler spots a Goody Hut.
Turn 3- Scout east, then north. Settler west. Worker South, reveals nothing of value.
Turn 4- Scout north, then north. Worker South, reveals a game and BG. Settler West.
Turn 5- Scout North onto mountian. Worker South, reveals furs. Looks like 2 idential settling spots. Settle NW.
Turn 6- Settle Moscow, set for scout. Worker heads west. Scout 2 west, spots goody hut. Research set for Ironworking.
Turn 7- Worker SW onto mountian. Scout pops hut, gets Pottery and reveals a cow and game. Looks like 3 indential starts on this chunk of ice.
Turn 8- Worker West. Scout NW, then N.
Turn 9- Worker West, scout N.
Turn 10- Worker North. Scout North then NW.
Turn 11- Moscow Scout->Worker. Scout 2 W. Worker N. Scout SE, S.
Turn 12- Scout pops hut but it is empty. Scouts scout. Worker almost at Moscow.
Turn 13- Explore and stuff.
Turn 14- Scout spots another hut.
Turn 15- Pop hut, get maps.
Turn 16- Moscow borders expand. Moscow worker->warrior. Worker starts mine on BG.
Turn 17-Workers work. Scouts scout.
Turn 18-Workers work. Scouts scout.
Turn 19-Workers work. Scouts scout.
Turn 20-Mine finished. Start road. Find 2 more huts.

This island is nothing but a hunk of ice. I don't see us getting off this island anytime soon. Moscow may be on the best spot on this island, I didn't have much to choose from. I think we should let the computers come to us and then once they settle on our island we pick the cities off. But that will be difficult because the cities that they may settle will take at least 20 turns to get to size 2 because of the poor land. I bet you $20 that the computers got a lush floodplain start.

SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Ivan_SG005_BC3000_01.SAV)


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Team_Ivan_SGOTM_5_3000_BC.JPG

Actually, it could have been worse, if Moscow were founded next to another huge lake and we couldn't build any ships!

An AI might be NE on the corner of the map where a grass tile can be seen.

I hope we get WC from a hut so we can build the HE.

What would be our next tech? WC or MM(for contacts)?

We also need a roster.

It looks like we did pick the best spot... The problem of letting the AI come to us is that we will still end up with bad land. I want to see if we can take it a weak AI and build a new core there.

I think MM is more important (What the heck is a HE??? We don't need the Heroic Epic yet)

What roster is?
Who play next?

Roster is:
Conehead<-Just Played
Larkin<-Playing now
King Alexander<-Next
Tomoyo
AdrianE

Looked at the save. Excelent start, IMHO.
It looks that we locked at Island before MM.
The only hope, that we make visual contact across water.
The most propable point is near silk.
Scout may stay there.
Will play soon. Any recomendations?
Regards, Ivan.

After the warrior, maybe another scout to help with visual contact. We do not need a granery so maybe after the we should go Finish warrior->scout->barracks.

Edit: We could build a colony to those silks as there is a land route to them I believe.

Edit: We could build a colony to those silks as there is a land route to them I believe.
What about after we finish improving Moscow's land, we start roading the island?
I mean, after we make the colony.

I think 2 scouts is enough. We need barracks and veteran units.
And MM ASAP. Lux Colony less important after all.

I hope we find iron/horses somewhere in our island.

I would go with Archers/Swordsmen, because it looks like an archipelago and horsies are of limited use.

Yes, I get your point, but I always want units that can retreat.

Playing now

Here is the save.
Brief summary:
Got from Hutts: CB, eqWorker and map of region. Finnally insured that we are locked on our Island.
Let me know if you want turnlog.
Please, note, that our priority is gold, not Schields and not Units. Any extra unit will be extra
-1gpt. I think, therefore, that we should build Granary next, and only then unints (not temple it is useless). I also think that we should merge workers to Moscow when it reach size 6 (or after we connect Iron). What do you think about Colosus as Lighthouse prebuild? Most optimistic, that we will have MM in about 55 turns from now. So our first conflict may be 70-80 turns from now. It is lots of Schields to spear if build Units only...

I don't know if we should build the GLhouse or not, but being this map at 75% water, it'll be good to have it. We may risk without it, but if we're unable to contact all the AI's, that wouldn't be good.
If we're going to build the GLhouse or Colossus, I think that we'll need the temple to keep our citizens happy and working, rather than making a few taxmen.

Until we meet an AI and make our plans about attacking it, I don't see why we shouldn't build the first Wonders.
Having to support many units, I'd say that Colossus is a Wonder that could help us a lot, and we also could build the GLhouse later on, because this is Regent level and we can make it.

As for the build order, it depends on what we decide to go after, so I'll wait from the other members to state their opinion.
Whatever we do, I think that we're going to need a temple.
The granary could help, but if we cut the game-forest and irrigate it, we'll have all the food we need, unless we want to grow even faster?

As I'v sad in many SGOTM, Temple is useless impouvement. It make only 1 happy fase (1 gpt save) but costs 1 gpt to support. As a result 60 schields to build is only west of time/shields.
At size 6 10% Lux will do what we want, then we should merge workers to be comfortable at 20 or 30% Lux. BTW, can we merge eqWorkers? Granary will help to grow and in long term future will "refund" investment. I am not sure, however, that to cut forest to have Granary faster is a good idea (even on Game). To have large City schield productive better to have forest on tiles.
About Colosus/Lighthouse. Indeed, it will be nice to have Colosus, however we can survive without it, and, if we build it in Moscow we will not have something to prebuild Lighthose. Since we do not know World Map we may be locked at our Island in any case.
I recomend to King Alex to build Granary after Spear, and then all team will discuss what to build next.
Research is obvious: after IW(at min) 100% or so for Writing-> Map making.

@Ivan:
I see your point about the temple.

I'm not sure that it's a good idea to merge our eqWorkers, because we'll need them: I'd propose to start roading all the island(after we improve our tiles) so it's better for us to make iron/horse colony(if we find them) and the roads can always be useful for attacking anyone that settles in our island faster, work the land sooner and save turns in the game.

About the GLhouse, I'd say that we can make it and both the previous and Colossus, because this is Regent level, and the AI's produce settlers right now while we all know how stupidly the AI improves it's tiles and manages it's citizens.

I'll go for granary then, after the spear, but I'll wait a bit so the others can post their opinions.

We should irrigate the game to get more food, so we'd be able to work other forests and we can even plant some forests in other tiles. With more food we'll be able to work more tiles, have more citizens, more gold/shields, etc..

P.S.: I'm just saying some thoughts, I won't do anything that the Team doesn't approve.

@Ivan:
1) I see your point about the temple.

2) I'm not sure that it's a good idea to merge our eqWorkers, because we'll need them: I'd propose to start roading all the island(after we improve our tiles) so it's better for us to make iron/horse colony(if we find them) and the roads can always be useful for attacking anyone that settles in our island faster, work the land sooner and save turns in the game.

3) About the GLhouse, I'd say that we can make it and both the previous and Colossus, because this is Regent level, and the AI's produce settlers right now while we all know how stupidly the AI improves it's tiles and manages it's citizens.

4)I'll go for granary then, after the spear, but I'll wait a bit so the others can post their opinions.

5) We should irrigate the game to get more food, so we'd be able to work other forests and we can even plant some forests in other tiles. With more food we'll be able to work more tiles, have more citizens, more gold/shields, etc..

6) P.S.: I'm just saying some thoughts, I won't do anything that the Team doesn't approve.
1) good.
2) I mean "very later on"
3) From general point it looks rediculess to have 2 GW in OCC conquest, however at this isolation this might be an only option. We may start GLighthouse after 1-2 Galleys.
4)5) If you cut Game do it ASAP not to loose schields.
6) no reason to wait everybody. You are much more experienced than in SGOTM2.
Take responsibility.

Ok, then, I'll play after a while.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Ivan_SG005_BC2030_01.SAV

2430BC (1)
.........

2390BC (2)
Moscow grows to size 4. Workers complete roading the furs. Scouts keep revealing more of the map(near coastal tiles).

2350BC (3)
Moscow: spearman >> granary.

2310BC (4)
Workers begin clearing the game-forest. A barb camp appears just 1 tile behind of where our scout is at SE; I move the scout but it can only go behind to a forest tile, and the barbs will take it out next turn.

2270BC (5)
Our scout is dead, we have one more scout left. Warrior is far away, but heads towards the barb camp.

2190BC (6)
Moscow reaches size 5, and grows in 5 turns.

2150BC (7)
Workers cleared the forest, granary in 5, Moscow grows in 3.

2110BC (8)
Workers irrigate the game.

2070BC (9)
Nothing.

2030BC (10)
Workers complete irrigating the game, Moscow reaches size 6, grows in 4.
A barb appears at a mountain at North, so I'm going to order the warrior to return to Moscow to deal with possible pillaging.
The scout is also heading back to Moscow, as it's going to be killed soon by barbs.

Summary

1) We learn Iron Working in 3 turns, Moscow grows to size 7 next turn, we have 20% lux slider, Granary completes next turn.

2) Exactly 2 tiles North(straight, at the mountain) from our scout, there's a barb that cannot be seen right now, but he will at the next turn.

3) I haven't moved the 2 workers in my last turn; they completed irrigation and they wait fortified for new orders. Next player can wake them at the pre-turn and give new commands.

4) We may want to keep the 2 eqWorkers, and join the Worker in Moscow, as we pay much gold for the upkeeping.
We'll need a few units to watch out for barbs and contacts.

5) I haven't met an AI during my turns, as you noticed.

6) We'll need one more unit as a MP after a while.

We will get Granary in most useless moment. After growth to size 7 it will be empty.
I recomend build worker next, and merede 1 or 2 at size 7...
Build order may be Granary->worker->spear->Colosus.
Another "idea": almost exploit. After granary we may use our Moscow as 2 turn worker factory.
After we build 5 or 6 merge it back to Moscow. As a result we get size 12 city in 14 turns instead of 28. Drawback is money loses (84 g approx) and 80 schield approx. May be there is a compromise for 8-9 size...

I don't like boosting Moscows growth like that.

Got it and will play sometime in the future, probably today.

Please excume me for the misuderstanding!!!

In my log, at the 10th turn, I write that Moscow will grow in 4 turns, and granary is due next turn.

I somehow got it wrong in my Summary! I checked the save and Moscow is actually growing in 4, granary next turn.

Well, what about 1 spear for MP and 1-2 more for defence from the barbarians near Moscow's borders? I mean, I wouldn't want us to got pillaged by the barbarians who they'll come sooner or later.

As I've said, we can keep the 2 eqWorkers, and join the Worker in Moscow after it completes it's granary.

We can also use a timed pre-build with the temple for the GLhouse, since we're going for Colossus(more gold).

P.S.: I rarely can make it to upload an image here because my connection stalls near the end(I have some technical problems), just to know.
I can, however, to upload an image via e-mail to the next player so the later uploads it, but it's too much trouble.

Protection from barbarians should come in the form of an archer or swordsman. Killing barbs is much easier with offensive units.

EDIT: So we want the GLighthouse and the Colossus?

Yes, I agree on the offensive units, but I'd build another spear only to defend inside our borders and prevent pillaging: the barbarians would attack him.

We don't have anything better to build, and supporting unnecessary units without knowing where to prepare for an attack, it's pointless.

I think that we're going to need the extra gold from the Colossus for more unit-support, and we also want the GLhouse to help us with the contacts.

We're going to build these Wonders in our capital, which means no/minimum corruption, we're improving our land fast because we only have 1 city and this is Regent level and we can make it.

P.S.: there is small possibility for a cascade, but I don't see what we have to lose, in our position.

I'd also like to hear what conehead234 says about it.

1990BC: A barbarian appears next to our scout

1910BC: Iron working complete. Start research on writing. Two sources of Iron on our continent, both of equal distance.

1870BC: Moscow grows.

1725BC: Kill a barb

1675BC: Kill a barb, promote the warrior

Notes for the next player:
There’s a barbarian in the north. Try to distract it with the scout.
Writing due in 9.

The Save... :) (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Ivan_SGOTM5_1650BC.SAV)

and the world...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Ivan_1650BC.jpg

Ok, things look good: one point; I think that it's better to not make the iron colony right now, because we haven't a unit to get there to protect the colony from barbs.
We can send our warrior, but that would leave us undefended from killing barb that may come to pillage.

In any case I wouldn't make the colony if we can't protect it immediately.

I'd improve the land now, road the forest to get the extra gold.

We'll also need to work 1 more lake tile in the future, to help Moscow reach a higher population.

P.S.: has anyone heard news of AdrianE?

Looking good guys. I am going to eat dinner then look at the save and post my thoughts.

I'm here.

It is a weird map for sure. We will need to crank out galleys to find the rest of the world.

We should look for opportunities to farm the barbarians. Some veteran/elite horsemen would be ideal.

I'm up. This is a got it.

I've played.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Ivan_SG005_BC1375_01.SAV

Tomoyo - please use the SGOTM uploads page.

1. 1625BC rearrange forces - growth causes lux rate to be pushed to 30%
IBT Barb appears in North.
2. 1600BC Workers scurry back to Moscow.
3. 1575BC nothing
4. 1550BC warrior kills a barb in the north
5. 1525BC
6. 1500BC micromanage Moscow for Collosus in 5
7. 1475BC spot Barbs in SW
8. 1450BC
9. 1425BC learn writing, start on Map Making
10. 1400BC
11. 1375BC Moscow completes Collosus -> spear (we need the happiness)

oops I played 11 turns. sorry.

I micromanaged Moscow to deliver Map Making in 16. Currently we have a population of 9. That needs a lux setting of 30%. With one scientist we can get by with luxury of 20%. That gives us MM in 16. If we build 1 more garrison unit that scientist can work (bring in 2 gold) with a lux rate of 20%. That might push map making to 15 turns or less.

After that spear we might as well build a temple. We have nothing else to build for 16 turns. We will need the happiness when Moscow expands to size 10. We need to keep research at 80% or higher.

The scout is running away from a barbarian who is hiding behind the mountain. It should move into view in the interphase.

I think that after the spear, we should build one more spear and take the Worker(not the eqWorker) to make a colony on the iron, and the scond spear defend it.

We could build a sword, but we can also upgrade our warrior, if we want, to deal with the barbs: we may need to have 2-3 swords to go/look after barb camps, so we take the 25g and can research faster(I'd keep 1 sword near Moscow to prevent any pillaging).

I'd leave the temple for now: the temple can be used as a nicely, timed pre-build for the GLhouse: if the temple needs, say, 7 turns and we learn MM in 6, I'd start buiding the temple and switch.

I don't like boosting Moscows growth like that.

Why? I think one-two worker and then merge might be a good boost to size 8.
We should use any opportunity for growth and gold... As you see Colosus did not
helped in first instance. But we will benefit it at Republic.
I think we should connect Iron (Colony) ASAP (Conehead, please, stop and send worker). And build Spear and Swords. We may have 3-4 before MM.
Swords will hunter for barbarians. Don't forget to prebuild Galley (Me, actually).
Shall we send scout on galley or swords as well? What our decision about Lighthouse? How many Galleys we need before?
Another question (me decide again): Shall we go straght to Republic or we want Literacy first? (J/K Do we want TGL?)

...because it seems exploitive.

@Ivan: I'd say to use the temple as a timed pre-build for the GLhouse. I don't think any more Wonders will do us good, but, then again, in our situation(!), you never know.

As for the workers, I think that somewhere in the rules is forbidden(?).

We're going staright for Republic?

Depending on the map, there may be goody huts to pop with a unit on the galley. We could get a late tech from a hut. It may be worth sending some unit on the galley.

We might want to pre-position some swords near likely AI landing spots. That way we can take the cities from them as soon as they grow to size 2.

The map indicates that we are an island in the middle of the world. Which way do you want to send suicide galleys?

What tech do you want to research after map making. We should choose something with trade value. I think that limits it to CoL or Phil.

Moscow can easily produce 12 to 14 shields. Using the temple as a prebuild will only net us 4 turns out of the 25 or so required for the lighthouse. Actually I don't think the lighthouse is as valuable as the great library.

Building a temple will let us research faster as we can keep the lux slider at 20%.

How many AI's are there in the game? Do we know?

I think the Lighthouse i more useful, simply because the variant is a conquest variant and it will make it much easier. Also, I think that when we are on an island, Lighthouse is better, and it might help trading.

Literature for libraries is important though.

Yes, I agree on going for the GLhouse. Anything that makes our lives easier to send galleys and troops is welcome, as it'll take less turns for the game.

I also agree on pre-positioning units as we can't send replacements immediately, but do the pre-positioning near AI cities, as we can't afford to have units everywhere.

Literature, Republic, very good techs. What about horses? We'll trade for HBR?

Looking good guys. I am going to eat dinner then look at the save and post my thoughts.
I think we need long term plan, and you, as team leader, should participate in discussion and you should make the final decision in unclear issues.
Also, I'd like to know do we want win competition using any possible "exploits" or lose, but play "honestly"? BTW, are ship chain and RoP rape allowed? Previous winner used this tricks. It may help a lot. Where we can find a list of forbiden exploits?
Regards, Ivan.

I think the Lighthouse i more useful, simply because the variant is a conquest variant and it will make it much easier. Also, I think that when we are on an island, Lighthouse is better, and it might help trading.

Literature for libraries is important though.
We can't prebuild Lighthouse, because we want seascouting as soon as possible.
I think, I will start Lighthouse after 2 galleys. Our game will be long, we have 15 opponents, and OBCC will be long game, 300-340 turns. I think we may end up this game with knights. To plan military operations we need map, but without navigation we have to scout it ourself.
If we go straight to Republic after MM (Phy->CoL->Rep) it will take 36 turns aproximately. With Literacy it will be 9 turns longer. We may start military action 40 turns after MM.
I don't think we may benefit from TGL.

I personally believe that we do not need the great Lighthouse as to the Northern end of our frozen Island there is some coast visible. The Great Library may be valuble but remember, this is only Regent so we can keep up in the tech race. We may want to colonize those other furs so we can use them to trade after we build a harbor.

I am unsure whether to go for republic. We will be warring alot and the republic has WW and no free unit unkeep. But since we got the Collosus, it may be our best choice. The extra gold from the Collosus and the extra gold from the Republic will allow us to support more units.

Here is what I believe we should do;
1. Research Mapmaking, then start researching toward Republic.
2. Send out 2 galleys to explore, 1 go clockwise and the other counter clockwise around our island.
3. Construct a harbor in Moscow to help with the gold situation and allow trade.
4. If that coast to the north of our island has an AI on it. Begin to build a road from Moscow to the northern tip of our island so that we can send troops closer to the AI, to make the galley trip shorter.
5. Continue to wack barb camps so we can get more gold.

Ok, that is all my thoughts. I am sorry to say that I will be going to New York City for a few days. I will try to find a computer while I am there. Untill I get back, Ivan will be team leader.

1) We may want to colonize those other furs so we can use them to trade after we build a harbor.

2) The extra gold from the Collosus and the extra gold from the Republic will allow us to support more units.

3) Here is what I believe we should do;
1. Research Mapmaking, then start researching toward Republic.
2. Send out 2 galleys to explore, 1 go clockwise and the other counter clockwise around our island.
3. Construct a harbor in Moscow to help with the gold situation and allow trade.
4. If that coast to the north of our island has an AI on it. Begin to build a road from Moscow to the northern tip of our island so that we can send troops closer to the AI, to make the galley trip shorter.
5. Continue to wack barb camps so we can get more gold.

4) I am sorry to say that I will be going to New York City for a few days.
5) Untill I get back, Ivan will be team leader.
1) I am sure that nobody will have MM soon, so we may trade only after capture City at another continent and build Harbor there.
2)Agree.
3) 1.2. Agree.
3. May be we need more swords before go to Harbor/Lighthouse.
Probably best thing is wait for GL to build Lighthouse. things really depend what seascouting let us know.
3)4.5. Agree.
4) Will you play this 10 turns now?
5) Thanks, will manage.
Ivan

Great Leaders cannot rush great or small wonders in this game. :)
There's a list of the modifications in the maintenance thread. Could be important to read.

I don't know if we're going to need the GLhouse 100%, but in an island map it is always good to have it, and if it's going to save us game-turns, it definetly worths building it.
It may seem that there's coast for our galleys, but we don't know anything beyond that(it may only be small islands and the big AI islands are further away), so we might need it.

Anyway, let's build 2 galleys for scouting first.

EDIT: It'd be good to have a unit inside the first galleys, so we can pop a hut or disperse a barb camp elsewhere.

I think that will be our use for our scout. Should we build another scout to put on a galley, or will it be a warrior-ish type unit to combat barbs? (We're EXP, so no barbs from huts)

I don't think 2 galleys will be enough. Why?

Barbarian galleys could sink ours. We may also wish to try suicide galley runs as well. Given this map and 15 or so AIs there has to be a lot of land out there. That means the ocean should be relatively narrow. That means that a galley should only have to spend 1 turn in the ocean (50% chance of sinking). Two galleys per suicide route should be enough.

I want to see at least 4 galleys if not more.

Also, we have to think about what happens when we get the barbarian uprising. If it is raging we could get 3 or 4 camps on our island. That would be a lot of horsemen to face. If Moscow was sacked and we lost the Great Lighthouse build we would be in trouble.

OK, let NOT build Lighthouse until we really need it. I also think that we need mo Units.
I also think we will have time to do it later.

Mad -Bax at maintainance wrote:
"You may find a list of banned and permitted exploits >>HERE<<

Ship chaining, ROP Rape and worker merging are all allowed. Worker merging is not allowed beyond the point that food can sustain the additional population. IIRC for PTW and 1.29f this is not possible anyway."

Please examine those rules carefully (in the maintenance thread).
I will ask team again:
I'd like to know do we want win competition using any possible "exploits" or lose, but play "honestly"?. I personally think that we must use any methods and "exploits" permitted by the rules even if it contradicts the personal tastes of the team members:

Tomoyo wrote:
"I don't like boosting Moscows growth like that.
...because it seems exploitive."

I examined the Firaxis score graph and we are now in the last place, seemingly because we did not boost Moscow's size. I am writing this because Conehead has given me the privileges of the team leader. You can appeal to him when he returns from NY. I will wait for 7 hours and then start playing if he does not show up.
Regards, Ivan.

@Ivan: Personally, I find all these methods of "honorable" playing completely pointless, and hypocritic; people die from starvation and wars in REAL LIFE, and we're talking about "honorable" playing in a game??? - Who cares?

If something is not allowed by the rules, we stick with the rules, as it is.
If we find something that seems "exploitive", we'll contact the SGOTM staff and we'll see what happens(if they'll allow us to use it or not).

Regards

KA

@Ivan: Personally, I find all these methods of "honorable" playing completely pointless, and hypocritic; people die from starvation and wars in REAL LIFE, and we're talking about "honorable" playing in a game??? - Who cares?

If something is not allowed by the rules, we stick with the rules, as it is.
If we find something that seems "exploitive", we'll contact the SGOTM staff and we'll see what happens(if they'll allow us to use it or not).


Because Civ is the game I can play for aesthetic pleasure, not aiming for victory, in previous SGOTM, I was happy to build cathedrals and universities although I knew that that was preventing a fast conquest. Our team is stronger than usual, all players are about deity level and I am keen to win this particular game. Despite the fact that we are unsure of the map's layout, many things can be predicted by using of methods of mathematics and statistics. However, rigorous criteria of optimizing must be implemented. (i.e. do we need a harbor? a lighthouse? when?). Often this contradicts aesthetic tastes, but is necessary for a fast victory.
Ivan.

I know what you mean, and I play my own epic games with various different combinations of "fair" or not, so I do built cathedrals as well(although not always).

But, if something is allowed by the rules here, I don't see the reason why not to use it, that's all I meant.

EDIT: Personally, I'm more a builder than a warmonger in my own epics, but when I play SG's(or SGOTM), I go with whatever the Team decides for our goal.

When I was writing that, I think I had the RBC rule implanted onto my brain:

If it feels like cheating, it probably is. Well, it feels like cheating.

Then I remember that this isn't RBC. :lol:

I still think that we shouldn't have done the worker merge thing.

In my epic games I never use RoP abuse. So, I have no experience of war with that.
However I do ship chains, and I think we will use it.
"I still think that we shouldn't have done the worker merge thing."
From the point of view of fast development it was right thing to do, the only questions were it's legality and the optimal size of the city. Now I see that it was 10 (3 workers to merge).
We lost this opportunity, but I think that there will be plenty more of them. We haven't lost competition yet.

Conehead wrote:"I am sorry to say that I will be going to New York City for a few days. I will try to find a computer while I am there. Untill I get back, Ivan will be team leader."

It looks like he did not find a computer, so I am playing now.
Next King Alex, and so on, until Conehead return.
Ivan

Here is the save. I build Temple, warrior, Spear, swordman and Galley.
I have no idea where to seng galley Clockwise or Conterclockwise?
My initial thought was Conterclockwise. I did not upgrade warriors to save money for research, however with barbarians we may do it and have 25 gold/camp. Anyhow, we should pospone Lighthouse before decent fleet and military. I also thing that we should not make any suicide mission. If we get stuck again we consider Lighthouse...

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Ivan_SG005_BC0775_01.SAV

Pre-turn: load scout into the galley.

1000BC (1)
=====

975BC (2)
=====

950BC (3)
Moscow: galley >> swordsman.

925BC (4)
=====

900BC (5)
Our warrior takes out a barb camp and we got 25g.

875BC (6)
Moscow: sword >> sword.

Lower science to 70%, Philosophy next turn.

850BC (7)
We learn Philosophy.

Our north galley finds the beginning of an island(small or bi, we'll discoer at the next turns).

Edited: I was unsure of weather we had agreed on researching towards Republic and I stopped playing, but as I read the past post, I see that we agreed on going for Republic, so, I reload.

Start researching CoL.

825BC (8)
One barb horse attacks our sword and of course it dies.

IBT
Our southern galley survives a barb galley attack.

800BC (9)
We spot borders up to north!!! Contact next turn. Note that our northern galley has a scout inside.

Moscow: sword >> sword(it can be changed by the next player).

775BC (10)
We contact the Indians: they're up to CoL, WC, Masonry, the Wheel and Mysticism, and we're up to Indians with Philosophy.
They have contacts with the Egyptians, Americans and Spanish.
The Indians have 8 cities - we have no other than our capital, of course...

Calcutta is building the Oracle.

No trade on the last turn, of course.

Summary

1) We must decide if we're going to trade or not and at what rate we're going to research; We only have 42g, we have a deficit of -10gpt, CoL in 8.
We can't keep anymore doing this, so we must lower our research.

2) I have 2 swords heading for 2 barb camps to get 25 * 2 = 50g.

3) There's also a sword in Moscow waiting for instructions.

Greate play, K-Alex. I'll look at save and make recomendation.
Tomoyo up. We are at critical point IMHO. Before you play,
please, let discuss what to do at preturn and on your turns.
Certanly, we must here AdreanE oppinion. It would be nice if
Conehead will find computer at NY and tell us what he think, even if not play.

EDIT:
Reccomendation for preturn:
We can trade WM and Contacts!
Unbelivable, but AI well up at research. I am sure, that not all...
Spain is cheapest, and we can get contact now, (Phy, WM + 37 gold), and propably get something from them + contact with Egiptians. From Egiptians we can get contact with Americans. Our priority for trade are: CoL, Masonry (for Mathematics), the Wheel (to know where horses are) .We can do without mysticism and Horseback riding at the moment. It's better to have as much gold as possible. And we should buy territory map and warrior code only if the AI's have nothing left. We must perform all the operations in the pre-turn otherwise our goods for trade will lose their value. I think we will go for war with somebody very soon, so avoid gpt deal. Depending on how quick we may get Republic we may try to research it or literacy and trade it for something.
I recomend Tomoyo will make first trade round (Contacts+ something) and then we decide
what to do next.
Ivan.

I agree that what we'll decide from now on, it'll affect the course of the game, so, in my opinion, we should wait and think carefully what to do(Tomoyo can pick up the game by "got it", and then he has 72 hours, which means 3 more days to play, so we're not in a hurry).

If we wait a bit, maybe conehead can also say his opinion, as Ivan mentioned.

If we're going to war, we must prepare and build lots of swords and progressively, unload them in the tiles outside from the Indian city, so we're in position to strike, but we must lower our science so we can afford it.

About the GLhouse:
The GLhouse could help if we had it so we trasnported our units faster and more safely, but we'll lose much time for this.
The AI will built the GLhouse at some point, and we can take it from them.
Another thing is that India has contacts with 3 more AI's, which means that it didn't need the GLhouse to contact them, so we also can find these AI's without the Wonder(I believe, that is).

About trading:
I won't suggest what to trade for now, but, If we had more contacts, I'm sure that the tech prices would drop a lot. We can also stick-point India to give us some techs for free, if we capture some of it's cities.

It'd be good, if we made a road up to the north, so our units go there faster(we already have improved what Moscow can possibly work). This we'll take a lot of turns with only 1 worker, but we'd better start doing it asap.
Of course, we'll need a unit(sword?) to protect(fortified) our worker while the later roads in fear of barbs.
Also, with a road, we wouldn't need to pay maintenance cost for a bunch of galleys, so we could have more units.
btw: I'm not sure if it'd be good to make 1 more worker so we road faster..., does Moscow have enough shields to continue pumping swords every 3 turns?

1) I agree that , we should wait and think carefully what to do

2) If we're going to war, we must prepare and build lots of swords and progressively, unload them in the tiles outside from the Indian city, so we're in position to strike, but we must lower our science so we can afford it.

3) About the GLhouse:
The GLhouse could help if we had it so we trasnported our units faster and more safely, but we'll lose much time for this.
The AI will built the GLhouse at some point, and we can take it from them.
Another thing is that India has contacts with 3 more AI's, which means that it didn't need the GLhouse to contact them, so we also can find these AI's without the Wonder(I believe, that is).

4) About trading:
I won't suggest what to trade for now, but, If we had more contacts, I'm sure that the tech prices would drop a lot. We can also stick-point India to give us some techs for free, if we capture some of it's cities.

5) It'd be good, if we made a road up to the north, so our units go there faster(we already have improved what Moscow can possibly work). This we'll take a lot of turns with only 1 worker, but we'd better start doing it asap.
6) Of course, we'll need a unit(sword?) to protect(fortified) our worker while the later roads in fear of barbs.
Also, with a road, we wouldn't need to pay maintenance cost for a bunch of galleys, so we could have more units.
7) I'm not sure if it'd be good to make 1 more worker so we road faster..., does Moscow have enough shields to continue pumping swords every 3 turns?
1) Exactly! Collective brain is more poreful IMHO.
2) I think we must start to do it now.[preparation to war]. (Send swords and worker north at preturn). If we trade CoL we may make 40 turn gambit Republic or research Literacy for low rate. I think we may upgrade warriors at some point of war.
3) I agree. War with 4 AI is our priority. Thanks M-B we can trade and war without lighthouse. The only worry, that other AIs can build it far away and we stuck until navigation. Will see.
4) I wrote in previous msg (Edit) that contacts and CoL is first priority, but I am sure, that we can trade lot more... war with India is good but it is remote future. (10-20 turns from now).
5) Yes, 6) Yes. Probably secong Galley will come to tothern route 7) with 20% lux Moscow can't stay at size 12 without Harbor. We may build next worker when it will be size 12. We'll build Swordmans now.

3) I agree. War with 4 AI is our priority. Thanks M-B we can trade and war without lighthouse. The only worry, that other AIs can build it far away and we stuck until navigation. Will see.

Yes, I thought about it, that the GLhouse may be built far away by another AI, but I don't know how much good will do us right now if we were to built it, since we'll give valuable time to the nearby AI's to prepare and get stronger and stronger, and it'll be very difficult, if not impossible, to strike them later on.

Got it. Will play in the not near future. :)

I'll start preparing the swords to fight India with.

(BTW we can't get contacts without gpt (would hurt our research, but if we do minimum on Republic, it wouldn't matter as much))

I think we should trade poly and our WM for whatever we can get. 4 AIs with contact sounds like a medium sized continent to me. That means there must be another one or two (or three) continents out there for the other remaining AI's.

This is one of the rare times when we WANT the AI's to come settle our island so we should trade WM. They will be giving us cities for free! It will be so much easier to take cities on our island than to invade elsewhere. There are such nice city spots too. The AI's will not be able to resist settling them. We just wait for them to grow to size 2 and declare war and take them. They will likely be defended by a spear so they will be easy to take. The AI's will not be able to organize an effective counter attack.

Although we might want to hold off on trading the WM until we have contact with the other continent(s).

We could also hold off on trading for a few turns and let the galley find a few more AIs (ie the ones India has contact with).

I don't think we have poly... :confused:

I don't think we have poly... :confused:
I think AdreanE meant Phylo. As I sad, we should make priorities what we need.
Let check, that we agree.
So list is (in order)
1) Contacts.
2) CoL
3) Gold (Money)
4) Masonary
5) Wheel.
6) Theretory Map(s).
7) War Code
8) HBR,
9) Mysticism
It is also good to get Literature and Currency ASAP,
but I doubt that AI have it.
Certanly, we should trade Phylo and WM at one turn,
if we get something for that.

Philo + WM won't get us any contacts, so should we wait and try to contact them outselves?

Personally, I think that if we wait for the AI's to settle our island and then take their cities, we're doomed, and here's why;
a) these cities will need really many turns to grow(with tundra mostly) and because the AI settles at the most crappy tiles, the cities won't be much of help, let alone that it'll need a lot of turns until we improved their tiles so they "give" something worthy,
b) the fact is that the AI's CORE cities will still be intact, and with their pop around 8-12, they'd easily be able to pump out units every other turn.

We have to act as quickly as we can, but make sure that we will certainly capture some AI cities, because if we fail to capture some cities, we'll need many turns to prepare another attack, and by that time the AI will be in the Middle Ages and having Pikes, let alone the fact that there might be an AI MA against us, and if 2-3 of them turn against us, we won't be able to survive for many turns with only 1 city.

We must considerate carefully every move/plan we make in this game.

Philo + WM won't get us any contacts, so should we wait and try to contact them outselves?
I think we may try to make contacts ourseve. Lower research for a moment.
Unload scout at preturn and send galley and scout in oposite directions. I belive, you will see borders soon and manage to make contacts. It is difficult to make a compromise how many we should do ourself, use comon sense. Anyhow, do not make any Gifts to AI, if they have nothing to pay for WM, say, (or only few gold coins) abstain of trade. Hower... I also think that we should not go for 40 turn gambit, we have to research Literacy to trade techs.

Example: Indians will give contact with the Spanish for WM + Philosophy + 36g, OR contact with the Egyptians for WM + Philosophy + 42g + 1gpt, but, as Ivan suggested, we should try make contacts ourselves.

@Ivan: so, we go for Literacy after CoL?

We have to act as quickly as we can, but make sure that we will certainly capture some AI cities, because if we fail to capture some cities, we'll need many turns to prepare another attack, and by that time the AI will be in the Middle Ages and having Pikes, let alone the fact that there might be an AI MA against us, and if 2-3 of them turn against us, we won't be able to survive for many turns with only 1 city.

We must considerate carefully every move/plan we make in this game.
Golden words...
I also think, we should cosider telephone war few turns before landing..
As India holds bottelneck we have to strike India first... Also, due to Barbarians activity we have to hold some troops inside... Anyhow game might be very chalangung...
What do you think about an idea to make turlogs shorter (6 turns say)
or discuss things after 4-5 turns?

@Ivan: so, we go for Literacy after CoL?
I think we trade CoL and other techs at the turn, when we make 2,3 or 4 contacts,
start trading, and go to the Literature if nobody have it.

I also think, we should cosider telephone war few turns before landing..

Why is that? I thought that it'd be better to declare, enter their borders, and attack next turn, so we won't be a rep hit, and because the AI won't be ready for war so well.

As India holds bottelneck we have to strike India first... Also, due to Barbarians activity we have to hold some troops inside... Anyhow game might be very chalangung...

We certainly have to keep 2-3 swords in our osland: 2 for dealing with barb camps, and 1 near or inside Moscow, so we can prevent a sudden barb pillaging/attack.
If all of a sudden appear 16 barb horses, the RNG might not be good with us and we'll finish our game sooner!

Indeed, a very interesting game.

What do you think about an idea to make turlogs shorter (6 turns say)
or discuss things after 4-5 turns?

I agree; it'll be good to discuss things/deal/plans more often, so all the Team-members know the situation.

We can play 5 turns, post the log, and play 5 more turns afterwards, because:
We have a 24h "got it" limit, and 72h to play, so we can easily play 2 times from 5 turns and post the logs inside the regulation-limits.

EDIT: to add something about our turns; we could also play 6 turns instead of 10, if a member feels that he won't have the time to play 5 + 5 turns inside 3 days(plus 1 day for "got it").

AdrianE wrote: (his idea)
We could also hold off on trading for a few turns and let the galley find a few more AIs (ie the ones India has contact with).
I think Tomoyo may do this few turns without any trading, and after contacts send .sav to our thread to discuss situation.

Should I upload the mid-turn save to the GOTM server?

Wǿt de heck, here's de toinlǿg, but no save.

Toinlǿg:

Intoitoin: Bǿrb kills ǿr suddern gailly. :cry:

750BC: Drǿp ǿff scout. See cyan bǿrdas.

IT: Kill a bǿrb hǿrse. India is buildin’ de Pyramids. Gailly built to replace de sunkin one.

730BC: Kill another bǿrb horse. Red bǿrdas spǿtted. India gǿt Philǿsuphy! :cry: So dat’s why dey wouldn’t give anyding ferret.

IT: Nuttin’

710BC: Meet Span and America. America is up CoL, Masonry, The Wheel, Wǿrrior code, and Mysticism. Span is up de same techs, but is down Pihlǿsophy and M’ap Makin’. Dem ǿll ǿr up cǿntǿcts wid de Egyptians. I’ll stǿp hea an’ ask fer advice from de team.

Tomoyo wrote: "710BC: Meet Span and America. America is up CoL, Masonry, The Wheel, Wǿrrior code, and Mysticism. Span is up de same techs, but is down Pihlǿsophy and M’ap Makin’. Dem ǿll ǿr up cǿntǿcts wid de Egyptians. I’ll stǿp hea an’ ask fer advice from de team."
I repeat your turns and hope have the same 710 BC. Try to trade WM to spain for contact with Egiptian +4 and see what they have. I think lot less then Americans. Tren think. Anyway, you may trade then
Phylo+MM+3 to Spain for CoL+WC, or may be better.
Trade WM to all 4 for WM, techs and gold, at this turn anyway.

Ten characters.

Looked at save, as I wrote we can trade WM to spain for contact with Egiptian +4g. Next trade depends on what Egiptians have. I can do it myself, and Tomoyo may continue, or we can do it step by step.
No need to submit saves, sipmly follow description... Of course, you may take responsibility and play yourself...
Ivan

As we will go for war ASAP, send new Galley Clockwise to North and returnold to ferry. Send swords to Ferry point, we have to ferry 4 to strart war. I agree, that it should be sudden.
Ivan.

I'll finish this afternoon.

I have a question: How exactly do I use the GOTM server to put the save thingy in?

710BC (coint):

Philǿsuphy, Maep Makin’, an’ Wǿrld maep to de Spanish fer Code of Lǿs, cǿntǿct wid de Egyptians, their wǿrld maep, and 3g.

Philǿsuphy, Maep Makin’, Code of Lǿs, an’ our wǿrld maep to de Egyptians fer de wheel, masonry, mysticism, wǿrrior code, their wǿrld maep, an’ some change.

Span an’ America are up Maethmaetics an’ Hǿrsebaeck Ridin’.

Wǿrld maep an’ 5g to America fer Hǿrsebaeck Ridin’.

Wǿrld maep to India fer 65g an’ their wǿrld map.

We’re down Maethmaetics to de Americans an’ the Indians.

Research set to minimum to Republic.

IT: Our people want to build the Heroic Epic? :confused:

690BC: Nǿt much.

IT: Kyoto finishes de ǿracle.

670BC: Kill a bǿrb hǿrse, saeck a camp. Amaericans have cǿntǿct wid de Aerabs.

650BC: Nǿt much.

630BC: Aemericans have cǿntǿct wid ǿll de utter civs.

610BC: Kill a bǿrb hǿrse

160g + 1gpt to AMER fer cǿntaects wid de Aztecs
Philǿsuphy, Code of Lǿs, an’ our Wǿrld maep to de Aztecs fer cǿntaects wid de French, Jaepanese, an’ Iros.
Cǿntaects wid everyone we know to de French fer cǿntaects wid de Aerabs, Keltoi, an’ de English.
Cǿntaects wid everyone we know to de English fer de rest of de cǿntaects an’ Polytheism.
Cǿntaects wid everyone to de Vikings fer Math an’ a TM.
Maeth, CoL, an’ Polytheism to Mongols fer their WM.
WM to Zulu fer WM.

Hit Enter. :ack:

590BC: Raest from ǿll dat tradin’

570BC: A bunch of people stǿrt de Great Libraery.

550BC: Nothin’

Notes to de next playa:
Tradin’ is our main chance of caetchin’ up. Look fer opportunities.
Dere are two hǿrses on our island. I prefer the nordern one.
Moscow should be switched to worker. :wallbash:

An' de save:

http://www.marentha.com/Goodies/sword.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Ivan_SG005_BC0550_01.SAV)

I have editted my signature with links to the upload server and the download server. Post 1 in the game thread is always mine, so you know where to get the links.

Usually I encourage the team captains to put these links in their sigs. ;)

Ok, guys I just got back like 10 minutes ago. I couldn't find a computer in NYC. Let me catch up on what I missed and then I will post my comments. But just looking at the map and latest turn log; I say nice trading Tomoyo and we need to get off our island.

We make +5gpt. That's not enough to have units to start a war, with only 19g in our treasury. IMHO, we could disband the scout, and maybe also the galley that is inside the Egyptian borders, so we have more gold.

I'd sent our fortified galley near Moscow to help with the tarnfer of our units, so we have 2 galleys there.

We haven't yet started a road to the tranfer point, so we would have trouble to send more units, once the war is started. That's our highest priority, IMHO.

We can make a horse colony in the future, if we want to, but we don't need it right now, and it's better to make the road up to north(of course, we must have a unit to protect the worker from barbs, while the later roads).

We're 2 shields short in Moscow, of reaching 15 shields, so we pump a sword every 2 turns instead of 3: what about to make 1 more forest in the roaded tundra? We need to make a worker to make the forest, and then join him again in Moscow?

At pre-turn, we can earn some gold:
Japan will offer TM + 2g for our WM.
Arabs will offer TM + 3g for our WM.

We also have 3 barb camps on our island to take care of, which means 75g.

Just a few thoughts.

EDIT: Welcome back, conehead234 :king:

We should switch ASAP to worker, and we'll keep him. The fortified galley is right next to Moscow... :confused:

I have the save.

Tomoyo - what's with all the crazy characters? They don't display properly on my screen. Your turnlog was very difficult to read and understand.

Adrian

We certainly need 1 worker asap to help with the road: It'd be better if we had 2 workers roading to the north "transfer"-point, protected by a sword(while they road).

We'll face serious difficulty in tranfering our units quickly if we don't make the road.

When the workers finish the road, 1 of them can make a colony to the north horse, where our warrior is fortified, so we also have horses.

160g + 1gpt to AMER fer cǿntaects wid de Aztecs
Philǿsuphy, Code of Lǿs, an’ our Wǿrld maep to de Aztecs fer cǿntaects wid de French, Jaepanese, an’ Iros.
Cǿntaects wid everyone we know to de French fer cǿntaects wid de Aerabs, Keltoi, an’ de English.
Cǿntaects wid everyone we know to de English fer de rest of de cǿntaects an’ Polytheism.
Cǿntaects wid everyone to de Vikings fer Math an’ a TM.
Maeth, CoL, an’ Polytheism to Mongols fer their WM.
WM to Zulu fer WM."

I think it is plain gifts!
We should press AI as strong as possible!
We are going to Conquest, not Diplo victory!.
Conehead is here and may think about situation...

Moscow is stuck at a max of 13 shields per turn for now; we can reach 14 SPT if we mine another tundra and we can reach the magic number of 15 SPT once we switch to Republic because the furs would gain another shield. Because we only have one city, carefull planning needs to go in to what Moscow constructs. There is only 2 things that we need now: Swordmen and Galleys. Currently we have 3 galleys: One on its way to India, one outside moscow, and one over by Egypt. Currently Moscow can produce a galley in 3 turns. We can get that down to 2 turns in about 30 turns. That is too long away. We have to go with our 3 galleys we currently have. Recall our Egyptian galley, recall our India galley, and send our Moscow galley toward the end of Route 66 (see map). The reason behind this is because if we send our troops 2 at a time toward India, they will be destroyed but if we send them by 6, we will have a better chance of winning. We cannot throw troops away because we do not have the ability to mass produce them yet. Moscow at the current rate can produce 6 swordsmen every 18 turns; (6 swordmen every 12 turns once we get the SPT to 15).

If we are to succeed in a war, we need to weaken our target. If it is possible, we need to get America and India swinging at it. This should chew up Indian troops, making it easier for us to grab the cities. But this leds to another problem, our cities we grab will be corrupted and be close to worthless unless we get a FP up there. Which would take along time to build unless we get a leader and capture the required number of cities. It will be pretty difficult unless we get more cities at home. We need the AI to start to settle our lands. The nations on the northern island have almost ran out of space for cities. Hopefully they will look to our island for colonization. Then we can grab those cities.

I see no trade options except try to grab a few gold each turn by trading our WM. We need to slow down the tech pace. When I decoded Tomoyo's trades, I believe that we spent too much to buy those contacts. I believe we could have gotten a better deal than to give away our techs and money. That scout can be disbanded to save on gold.

Our tech research should continue toward Republic and then trade it around to get to the middle ages. Then go straight for Knights.

Wonders are useless to us now. Hopefully one of those Northern Islanders will build the great Library so we can grab it.

Barbs can be used to our advantage. We should farm them to train our soldiers but watch out for the Middleages barb uprising.

Somehow we need to get the other AI fighting to slow down the tech pace. Embassies and Military Alliances may be the best option but they may be too expensive.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Ivan_Route_66.JPG

@Ivan: I thought that th AIs would eventually meet each other, and I might as well get some value from it.

I agree with the war plans by conehead and am sorry for any trading mistakes I might have made...

Moscow is stuck at a max of 13 shields per turn for now; we can reach 14 SPT if we mine another tundra and we can reach the magic number of 15 SPT once we switch to Republic because the furs would gain another shield.

Very well said. Republic comes in 32 turns, by the way.

Because we only have one city, carefull planning needs to go in to what Moscow constructs. There is only 2 things that we need now: Swordmen and Galleys. Currently we have 3 galleys: One on its way to India, one outside moscow, and one over by Egypt. Currently Moscow can produce a galley in 3 turns. We can get that down to 2 turns in about 30 turns. That is too long away. We have to go with our 3 galleys we currently have.

I agree with everything you say: my only worry is how we can find a way to support all those units to start the war. And yes, we should send 6 units at a time, if we want to have any chance of surviving(don't forget a possible nasty RNG).

Recall our Egyptian galley, recall our India galley, and send our Moscow galley toward the end of Route 66 (see map).

As I see the map, IMHO, we could go from the left peninsula-path, ending the road from Route 66 at the left game, because our galley needs the same turns to get there, what do you think?

But this leds to another problem, our cities we grab will be corrupted and be close to worthless unless we get a FP up there. Which would take along time to build unless we get a leader and capture the required number of cities.

The only problem with this is that a leader cannot rush the FP, due to the modifications on the game(mad-bax mentioned it), but I'll have a look again to see if I'm wrong.

I believe we could have gotten a better deal than to give away our techs and money. That scout can be disbanded to save on gold.

The AI's will soon have pikemen the way the tech-pace went/goes.

Our tech research should continue toward Republic and then trade it around to get to the middle ages. Then go straight for Knights.

And if all go well, head for MT to get cossacks.

Barbs can be used to our advantage. We should farm them to train our soldiers but watch out for the Middleages barb uprising.

I'd say to have 3 spearmen in Moscow, because you never know if an AI will try to land near it, or from a sudden major barb attack.

We should also try to replace Elite swords(send them to war), and have new Veterans go after the barb camps/barbs in general.

Somehow we need to get the other AI fighting to slow down the tech pace. Embassies and Military Alliances may be the best option but they may be too expensive.

If we could afford it, it'd be nice.

OK I've played 5 turns.

That galley of ours by Egypt is earning us 15 to 20GPT. I have kept it alive. Barbarians have interfered with the road building. I have sent the scout over there via land.

Preturn

Trade Spain WM for WM and 4G, bankrupting them
Trade India WM for WM and 5G, bankrupting them
Trade China WM for WM and 6G, bankrupting them
Trade England Wm for WM, 1G
Trade Keltoi WM for WM and 1G, bankrupting them
Trade America WM for WM and 7G
Trade France WM for WM and 7G, bankrupting them
Trade Japan WM for WM and 11G
Trade Arabs Wm for WM and 12G
Trade America Wm for WM and 1G
Trade England WM for WM and 2G

We get 57G out of the AIs.

I repeat this kind of thing every turn. Egypt and Zulu are exploring new squares so I trade them WM for WM and sell the info to every AI every turn. Our galley also uncovers some new squares. I sell the WM to the rich nations twice a turn. Once with the galley infor and once with the info I get from Egypt and Zulu. The new map squares are worth 15 to 20G every turn from all the AIs. It is tedious but it pays off.

That scout should have been in the Egyptian galley. There have been a couple of goodie huts spotted in the peninsula south of Egypt.

Switch Moscow to Worker

IBT Barbs appear near Northern road, threatening our worker.

530BC, explore with galley, send swords to hunt barbs.
Moscow worker to sword
MM Moscow to single scientist which gives us an additional 1GPT but no growth.
new worker mines moscow area square

Trade WM as above

510BC disperse Barb camp, trade WM

490BC disperse barb camp, redline warrior, trade WM
Moscow sword to sword

470BC disperse barb camp, trade WM, no one will sell us construction but it is close

450BC disperse barb camp, trade WM
Egypt must have popped Monarchy from a goody hut because they are now up 3 techs

France will now sell us Construction for 250G and Iroquois 255G. We have 262G.

We can do the following trades:
Buy contruction from one of the above (no one will sell us Monarchy yet).
Trade construction to Keltoi for literature
Trade construction to England for 57G
Trade Japan for Monarchy and their 10G.

I'll stop here.



Or we wait for currency. A few AI's must be close to currency now. Currency and construction are the only things between us and the Middle ages.

Very good map-trading, AdrianE: we can certainly trade mutiple times a turn our WM, for 1-or more new tiles we learn every time. Sure, it requires some time, but it's the only way to have more gold for free.

I'm going to wait what are "top" strategists say for the techs we should buy, but I'd like to say that we also need to have much gold in our treasury because we'll going to run a negative deficit for a while to support all those units while in war.

Of course, much gold in our treasury can cause the AI to start "demands", and I'd like us to discuss what we're going to do in that case: give in to demands or refuse and risk war.

Good job with the map trading. We needed the gold. I believe we should ignore monarchy for now as I don't want to spend gold on a tech we do not need. Construction or Currency; I think we should wait for Currency. We can grab currency and then trade it around for gold and construction to get us to the Middleages.

We already have an Elite swordsman; we can move him up to north to transfer him.

We could also upgrade our 2 warriors to swords, and send one to protect the worker(s) while they road, and have the other one go for barb hunting in the place of our Elite.

Currency would be very nice to have.

Excelent gold mining, AdreanE!
I think we all should do the same...
About war and Monarchy.
I think fastest way to transfer troops is that I draw.
If we can trade for Monarchy now, we may do it. 2-3 turns Anarchy might be resonable.
Even at Monarchy Colosus generaye grate Boost.
Or we can wait for currency and trade Monotheism for Monarchy.
When we can start war? We need more Cities to support troops.
Now we know map and political situation and can try to workout overall plan to win.
I think we should wth out overseas wars and try to benefit from MA and telephone wars.

@Ivan: do you think it's better to be at Monarchy? If so, then we should try and trade/buy it, and revolt asap, before we have more cities and I think the Anarchy would last less turns with only 1 city(but you never know...)

OK

I played my last 5 turns. I had a lot of problems with crashes coming from the diplomacy screen.

430BC - trade WMs, France has learned currency but won't sell it to us
IBT - Massive barb uprising near Moscow - France sold currency to someone!

410BC - buy currency from France for 210G, WM (cheapest deal of all)
buy construction from Egypt for currency and 44G
learn monothesism from scientific trait
sell construction to England for literature and 53G, bankrupting them
sell currency to America for 32G bankrupting them
sell Monothesim to France for Monarchy, WM, 282G and 6GPT (bankrupt them)
sell WM

Arabs and Egypt have 25G and 43G respectively but I don't sell them monothesim

IBT barb galleys kill our exploring galley

390BC - move troops to get ready for barbs
IBT sword on Iron holds, lose 2 other swords
Spain completes pyramids

370BC - not much, it is hard to trade maps around without any new info
IBT China completes Great Lighthouse

350BC - reposition units

Next player

Maybe we should revolt right after we declare war? The production miss will only be the trickle of reinforcements to the AI. We need to declare as soon as we get 4-6 swords onto the other continent.

"Arabs and Egypt have 25G and 43G respectively but I don't sell them monothesim"
Good.
I think we should revolt now. Monarchy will give extra food, Gold, 1 more schield and 4 more unit support. i think conehead may carry out war at Anarchy...

I will download your save and try to find out why you are getting crashes from the diplomacy screen.

Are you getting readable text in the diplomacy screen or is it gobbledegook?

Monarchy will give us the same unit support as our current government. But if the team wants to revolt to monarchy I won't fight you over it.

I will download your save and try to find out why you are getting crashes from the diplomacy screen.

Are you getting readable text in the diplomacy screen or is it gobbledegook?

Mad-bax

Your PM box is full.

Specifically the crashes happen when I try to talk to France and Japan after they entered the middle ages.

Immediately after restarting, I can open the diplomacy screen with France/Japan and conduct business normally. However there is no leaderhead shown for either.

If I talk to any other nation and come back to France, then it crashes.

I tried reinstalling all the Flics, and pcx files that exist to support Joan. It still crashed.

I am playing Civ 1.29 on a mac.

Adrian

One thing to consider:
We now have plenty of cash. We can pillage the iron road and build warriors. Then reconnect the road and upgrade the warriors to swords. I don't like the resource disconnection trick but it has become obvious that the top teams *ALWAYS* use this tactic. It is explicitly allowed.

Revolting now will bring in extra food and a lot of extra cash. Plus it will increase our production by 33% (two turn swords/horsemen not three turn).

It would also be useful to build a marketplace, library, cathedral. However we need to take some AI cities first.

We should revolt right after we build a unit. I think declaring war and fighting during the Anarchy is good.

Lets use the pillage/upgrade thing. Keep in mind that we will be using MDI when Fuedalism comes.

1) I think we will continue research of Republic at minimum and revolt again when discover it.
It is reasonable to revolt now. Conehead, please...
We lose 1 shield/turn 2 food/turn and lot of gpt.
2) About war/barbarians. Don't forget that we have big bonus when attack, so attack them at any possible event even with spear.
3)Iron disconnection: before we reach 15 gpt we may use this trick, may be will use it again when discover Chivalry.
2-3) drawback that we break Route 66 or whatever. We also need money for embassies.
4) I think we should start telephone war at remote continent. Use our techs advantage for alliance.
Remote embassies are expensive, so we should make a list of prices...
BTW, have the same problem at diplomacy as AdrianE. Play PC XP.

About telephone war See table:

<table>
<tr><td>Civ</td> <td>Emb</td> <td>Tech below</td></tr>
<tr><td>Ar</td> <td>61</td> <td>Mt</td></tr>
<tr><td>Fr </td> <td>109</td> <td>=</td></tr>
<tr><td>Ir</td> <td>119</td> <td>Mt</td></tr>
<tr><td>J</td> <td>105</td> <td>Mt</td></tr>
<tr><td>At</td> <td>74</td> <td>L,Cu,Co,Mn</td></tr>
<tr><td>Ke</td> <td>66</td> <td>Cu,Mo,Co</td></tr>
<tr><td>En</td> <td>85</td> <td>Cu,Mo</td></tr>
<tr><td>Mo</td> <td>97</td> <td>L,Cu,Co,Mn</td></tr>
<tr><td>Zu</td> <td>87</td> <td>L,Cu,Co,Mn</td></tr>
<tr><td>Ch</td> <td>71</td> <td>L,Cu,Mn</td></tr>
<tr><td>Vi </td> <td>45</td> <td>Mt</td></tr>
</table>

I think, most resonable to strike Vi, J, Iro. Also England looks good candidate. Mongols have very expensive embassy unfortunately.
I did not check it yet, but i think we may establish embassies with Ch, Zu, Ke, At and declare J, Iro, En Make alliance AT+Ke Vs Iro, J, En. Then Declare Viking and Mongol and make alliance Zu+Ch vs Vi+Mo.
Better to do it NOW.
Ivan.

I will start my turns tonight but may not get finished untill tomorrow.

Ma y be it is too late, but if we relolt now and have 3 turn Anarchy and 19 turns
Monarchy
we gain
209-15=194 gold
38-12=26 food
and lose
36 -19=17 schields.
In fact we simply loose 1 sword or Galley. Anyway.
If we revolt later, or Anarchy will be longer our profit will be less.
I think that 194 gold + 26 food better then sword, but...
Please, start Telephon War.
Regards, Ivan

If the Anarchy lasts few turns, it'd be better for our income.
We'll have to run a negative deficit, maybe big deficit, for a while until we capture another city(s), because we can't afford starting a war in another island with only 1 city(reinforcements will be crucial and we'll need them quickly, once the war starts).

We should also try "fishing" for Elites(attacking barbs), as much as we can, and send them to the front.

We'll need to go after all the barb camps on our island, to get more gold, and, I'd say, to have our workers keep roading to various directions(once they complete Route 66), so we go and destroy the barb camps sooner, and to send our Elites to the front sooner.
Also, dont' forget that soon the AI's will start settling our island, and it'll be good if we could reach any of their cities on our will.

As for the phony war, I think Ivan is experienced enough to propose so, because I've never tried it with only 1 city, and, anyway, the AI isn't good with sea invasions.

Preturn (330 BC)- Decide to launch Ivan's phony war plan. Embassy with China, Beijing has the lighthouse, heroic epic, and palace. Currently building a settler at 9 SPT. Embassy with Zulu, have heroic Epic and currently building lighthouse, 6 SPT. Keltoi embassy, no improvements, 8 turns away from the great library 7 SPT. Embassy with Aztecs, Heroic Epic, building settler, 9 SPT. Declare war on Japan, Iroqious and England. Civ crashes when I enter diplo screen to declare war on Japan. Have to do all the embassy stuff all over again. Trade monarchy and 29 gold to Aztecs for alliance vs Japan, England, and Iroqious. Keoti refuse to sign alliance against England, Japan and Iroqious. Declare on Vikings and Mongols. Trade Monarchy to china for the alliance against the mongols and vikings. Trade monarchy and literature to the Zulus for alliance against the mongols (they won't sign against the vikings). Revolt, we get 3 turns. Hire a few clowns.

IT-9 barb horse die with a lose of one sword.
Turn 2-Wack 3 barb horses, and a barb galley.
IT- 3 more barbs are killed. Paris builds the great Library. Iroquios build hanging gardens and japan builds the great wall.
Turn 3- Troop movement.
IT- We are now a monarchy.
Turn 4- Moscow now makes 14 SPT but it is still size 11, growth in ten so I move a worker back toward the city to join it. Wack a barb camp, get 25 gold.
IT- Barb dies
Turn 5-Move 2 elite swords to load on a galley next turn.
IT-Barb pillages one of our roaded forests Spanish galley moves toward our island.
Turn 6- Join worker into moscow, now size 12. Kill barb, Moscow is now at 15 SPT. Load a galley with 2 elite swords. Sign Keoti vs Iroqious for Mono and get a WM out of it.
IT-Moscow Sword->sword.
Turn7-Move sword north. Galleys continue toward India.
IT-Barbs move.
Turn 8- Move troops
IT- Moscow Sword->sword. Spanish galley headed back toward it's own island. Hopefully it dropped off a settler on our island.
Turn 9-Movements, send 2 swords with a worker to begin to road.
IT- Nada
Turn 10- Sword spots spanish spear and settler. Begin to road Route 66. Unload the 2 elite swordmen on the Indian Island.

The SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Ivan_SG005_BC0170_01.SAV)

Good playing, conehead234.

I think that we should respect our phony war/MA for the full 20 turns(for our reputation), unless the nations we signed in, get out of it sooner.

Also, it'd be nice to declare war and capture the city that Spain is going to settle on our island, as soon as it grows to size 2, what do you say? We'll just have to defend our cities for some turns, until we make peace with Spain again, after the war.

Also, I think that it'd be good to have a few catapults in our cities, mainly for easy defence.

There is a bug in the 1.29f game where the Japanese and French middle age leaderheads are missing from the diplomacy screen. If you switch from talking from one to the other the game will crash.

I've written a batch file that corrects the bug. Just unzip >>THIS<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/diprepair.zip) file into your civilization root directory (the one with civilization3.exe in it) and double click on it. This is for PC users only. Mac users should copy the files manually (contact me for instructins) or contact Alanh for a simple script.

All the script does is copy a few leaderheads to the filename that is used in the game.

Got save and have studied political situation.
BTW, M-bax fix works.
Here it is. See txt file for better view. It looks that franch at war wit Iro.
I think we should ignore our gpt with France and Declare and bring Arabs to war.
also I think we should trade for republic and revolt again.
Civ Emb below above Peace
Eg 51 -- Rep
Sp 54 Mt --
Am 103 Mt Rep
In 57 Mt --
Ar 62 Mt --
Fr 109 -- Rep
Ir War Mt Rep agree
J War Mt -- doubt
At -- L,Cu --
Ke -- -- Rep
En War Mt -- agree
Mo War L,Cu,Co-- doubt
Zu -- Mt Rep
Ch -- Cu --
Vi War Mt Rep agree

I'v played 7 turns, will finish tomorrow.
Comments are welcome.
Ivan

I don't understand very well the list Ivan posted; what are we supposed to do? What "L - Cu -Co" mean? I think I need specific instructions.

As I see the save, the war with India has begun, and we're Republic now.

I also think that we should have a unit fortified in the iron colony, because if a barb pillages it, it wouldn't be good at all for our situation with the war.

One suggestion:

Watch for an opportunity to herd an AI spear settler pair to where we would like a city on our island. The the settler found a city and wait for it to grow to size 2. Then take it away.

Japan has engineering now. Look out for a trade opportunity when they trade it to someone else.

Thanks. I think I will write turnlog and continue to play next.
K-A, wait I'll play 3 turns more.
"L - Cu -Co" mean Literature, Currency, Construction. Mt monotheizm. -- is nothing, figure is price for embassy.
This table not instruction but summary of Diplo information at 170 BC.
@All,
I need recomendations, shall we (I) advance to Madras now and send Galley with sword
with risk to loose Galley. (Sword may be unload). Also recomendation about next politics.
(May be too late...)

0 170 BC
Study diplomatic situation. See CivEmbTech.txt file at post 134. Look F8 screen. French and Arabs are most powerful. Also French has TGL. Decided to declare French and bring Arabs to war (Mono+8 gpt). Then trade Mt for Rep and gold to Americams. Rush sword and revolt (4 turns anarchy). Send warrior to upgrade. Send spear to take barb camp. Stop worker to send it road forest.
IBT Moscow riot.
Spain moves.
1 150 BC
Move troops.
IBT India demand Republic. Ignore. They Declare. Moscow happy.
2 130 BC
Wake up 4 swords and move it to Madras. Let Moscow food.
IBT Lot of Indians ran into Madras.
3 110 BC
Move 4 swords to Madras.
IBT
Pick up Republic.
4. 90 BC We can stay at 10%lux. Set library. Take B/Camp at horses. Desided to take Lahore first.
IBT barb appear near Moscow. Spain sp/Settler moves…
5. 70 BC Unload 2 and move 4 swords to Lahore. Kill barbarian.
IBT
French sign peas treaty wit arabs.
6. 50 BC
Capture Lahore 1 sword lost, send two workers at our mainland.
IBT 3 indian settlers run out from Madras?? Spain stay at road near Our Colony.
Moscow Library->sword.
7. 30 BC Declare war and kill Spanish spear. Send worker for 66.
IBT. Spanish Galley sail near Lahore.
10 BC ???
I trade WM every turn, but no new b/camps.

8. 10 BC Move forward to Madras. Make peace with Japan for Republic and 97 gold.
I trade WM and see new b/camps.
IBT Indian reg sword kill our elite sword. Spanish Galley sail to our homeland.
9. 10AD Kill redlined Indian sword. 4 swords near madras.
IBT Indian sword die and make 2/5 of our sword.
10. 30 AD. Kill 2 spears in Madras. Unload Indians workers in our land.
IBT. Spain unload Spear/settler at our land. Indian’s galley near Lahore.
2 warriors ran out of Madras.
11. 50 AD. Capture Madras. Indians agree for peace. Best deal is Bangalore+9+WM. Made peace. Block Spain couple. Send Indians workers to cut forest. Left our workers unmoved. Fortify Galley. Watch, where Spanish galley will move. Set Moscow for Marketplace.

One suggestion:

Watch for an opportunity to herd an AI spear settler pair to where we would like a city on our island. The the settler found a city and wait for it to grow to size 2. Then take it away.

Japan has engineering now. Look out for a trade opportunity when they trade it to someone else.
Now Egiptian has Engeneering.
(Trade from Japan).
It is still expensive.
Next tur France will get it from TGL.
We may make embassy and trage Engeneering with alliance vs Atsteks. Or we may wait until Atstek will have 1-2 Cities. Or wait and trade wit somebody elese.
@K-Alex, can you discuss with me before you play?
Regards, Ivan

So we captured 3 cities? Great. I am afraid that they may be too corrupt untill we can get a FP over there. At least we can use them for unit support. Did the Spanish settle on our island?

This being Regent and the relatively low Rank corruption due to the variant, the cities shouldn't be that corrupt, that they can't build anything.

Great play, Ivan. This is my "got it". I'll play my first turns until tomorrow evening or Saturday morning(too much work).

1) I'd like us to have 1 more spear(or sword) in Moscow after the marketplace, and also have a unit on the iron colony, what do you think?
2) We're on a big negative deficit; maybe we should save and rush the harbor in Lahore?
3) What to do with Madras? Starve it or make temple(I fear a flip there in the future) - same with Bangalore. With temple in Madras we can work the cattle outside it's borders once it expands, so we may starve it a bit. We also can join our native worker in Madras so we have less fear for flip(we have 4 foreign workers on our island).
Moscow can supply the (former)Indian with troops soon after it's marketplace.
4) The captured Indian workers can stay and improve the land there.
5) We could establish an embassy with India for 35g.
6) I think that we should let the Spanish settler/spear to settle, make peace with Spain when we can and capture the city once it grows to size 2. Another option is to let the Spanish settler to settle where he stands, wait a few turns for the city to grow(game nearby), capture the city and make peace.
We might have to defend for a while against Spanish troops on the other island, so I'll transfer more swords in our captured cities.

Ok, I'll wait for suggestions - it's late here, and I might not think so clear this hour.

1) Aye, we are at war with some potentially dangerous civs that could land some troops next to Moscow and take it. Two units is not enough.
2) No rush Harbour in Lahore. I think we should hit America next, and that means we can use an Indian Harbour.
3) Starve Bangalore because Temple won't help as much. Build temple in Madras; no starve.
4) Yes.
5) That would be very helpful if we go after the Americans.
6) Is it possible to lead the settler pair to a better spot? But then, peace will come too late. I think we should let it settle where it is, then capture as it hits size two.

Another thing: When we get Feudalism, we build MDI. MDI good. However, Moscow does 15 spt. That's three turns per MDI. Getting some MDI might be a good time to whack New York and Atlanta.

One thing, though: Bangalore has 2 Russian citizens, since India gifted the city to us. Madras need to be starved, and set to temple: maybe we rush it after a while when the money needed( for the rushing) is less.

Right now, I'm sure that some Spanish units head for our 3 captured cities, and we don't have so many units left there - our units also need to heal.
The question is what to do with our fortified galley: a)I could take it away from there, so the Spanish galley won't attack IBT, b) I could attack or wait to be attacked.

Yes, I agree with building MDI's(or whatever the mod "names" them). I also think that we need 2 spears in Moscow, so, I'll return the second spear there, once he destroys the barb camp.

As for whom to attack next, let's build enough units first, and we can go for the Americans, or attack India again in 20 turns.

Are we still in any MA with anyone? Some civs broke it.

Will write in more details soon.

1) Aye, we are at war with some potentially dangerous civs that could land some troops next to Moscow and take it. Two units is not enough.
2) No rush Harbour in Lahore. I think we should hit America next, and that means we can use an Indian Harbour.
3) Starve Bangalore because Temple won't help as much. Build temple in Madras; no starve.
4) Yes.
5) That would be very helpful if we go after the Americans.
6) Is it possible to lead the settler pair to a better spot? But then, peace will come too late. I think we should let it settle where it is, then capture as it hits size two.
7) This being Regent and the relatively low Rank corruption due to the variant, the cities shouldn't be that corrupt, that they can't build anything.

8) Another thing: When we get Feudalism, we build MDI. MDI good. However, Moscow does 15 spt. That's three turns per MDI. Getting some MDI might be a good time to whack New York and Atlanta.
1) I agree. We may swap Marketplace back to swords. May be we can build and send
Conterclockwise Galley to see alternative sea route from big continent. IMHO that now we control North route.
2) Libray or catapult is good alternative. (workers will cut forest.) However no harbor anywhere yet. Also we may try ask Indians to remove troops. It will be good if they declare war again. (10% lux) Send 1-2 wounded swords to Bangalore now .
3) Bangalore Russian. We may build 2 workers in Madras. Library cheaper then temples.
4) yes. Best thing is plant and cut forest. (Engeneering...)
5) We are not ready for war with Americans. If Indians will not declare to us again we may try to war Spain.
6) Spot not bad at all.... to grow faster we have to let them use Game. Also we may try to get it via Peace treaty when it size 1.
7) I also think that we may try to build Corthouse, Library in Madras and Build FP Brick by brick. May be Lahore better, will see.
8) swords upgrade to MDI? Also, we may cut/plant forest to have 10+30 for MDI and 20 Spt if we plant forest on mines and mine Game and Catel.
Trade WM every turn to get Barbs locations!
Watch posibility to trade Engeneering. Japan for Alliance vs Atsteks??
We have 1 Alliance with Kelts vs Iroques.
Consider Conehead route 66 again, or send workers to improve other lands.

Ok, I'll let the Spanish settler to settle where he is, and remove our unit to work the game.

I don't know if it's a good idea to force India to re-declare on us, are you sure for this?

If we mine cattle and game, we'll have less food and our pop in Moscow will drop, which means less gold, ect..., maybe we should reconsider?

I'll have a look what unit the swords upgrade to, and how much it cost on shields.

1)One thing, though: Bangalore has 2 Russian citizens, since India gifted the city to us. Madras need to be not starved,but build workers and set to not temple: maybe we rush it after a while when the money needed( for the rushing) is less.

2)Right now, I'm sure that some Spanish units head for our 3 captured cities, and we don't have so many units left there - our units also need to heal.
The question is what to do with our fortified galley: a)I could take it away from there, so the Spanish galley won't attack IBT, b) I could attack or wait to be attacked.

3) Yes, I agree with building MDI's(or whatever the mod "names" them). I also think that we need 2 spears in Moscow, so, I'll return the second spear there, once he destroys the barb camp.

4)As for whom to attack next, let's build enough units first, and we can go for the Americans, or attack India again in 20 turns.

5) Are we still in any MA with anyone? Some civs broke it.
1), Catapults or Lib, depends of war.
2) use ship chai wisely to minimize risk of loses. "A' la ger tum a' la ger..." We have to continue transfer swords to Lahore. I have no clear plan how to attach core of Spain yet...
Play 5 turns and ask. May be Conehead will advise something...
3) If Moscow continuesly pumps swords it is safe with 1 spear IMHO. I agree marketplace is not good...
4) Better to try "remove or declare". I killed lot of Indians, they can not be strong. (F3 says that we are strong vs, but avarage vs Spain, say).
5) We are in aliians with Kelts vs Iroques.

The swords upgrade to Frankish Axeman: 4-2-1 and costs 20 shields - Moscow currently produces 15spt, so we miss 5 shields to pump an Axeman every 2 turns once we learn Feudalism.

If anyone can calculate how much pop Moscow would lose if worked/plant more forests, so it reaches 20spt, it'd be good. Maybe worth it, maybe not.

EDIT: I'll play 5 turns now and post back.

1) Ok, I'll let the Spanish settler to settle where he is, and remove our unit to work the game.

2) I don't know if it's a good idea to force India to re-declare on us, are you sure for this?

3) If we mine cattle and game, we'll have less food and our pop in Moscow will drop, which means less gold, ect..., maybe we should reconsider?

4) I'll have a look what unit the swords upgrade to, and how much it cost on shields.
1) Send swords North on Galley.
2) I think we can stay with 5 swords + smthing we rush there.
Even if we do not capture anything we gain 6gpt. Things depend on what Spain will let us to do with our Galleys. If they let us sail I think we can take a risk. Chain shipping will reinforse Bangalore in time.
Anyhow I do not like when troops stay in Cities passively...
3) Now we have 2 food surplus with mining we'll have zero. +3 forest on tundra will give 20 Spt.
4) Yes, it is (10 schields more).

IBT
Keltoi and Iroquis sign Peace Treaty.

The spanish settler settled where he was: we now have, finally, another city on our island.

The Indians move to leave our territory, so, no need to ask them.

The resistance in Madras ended.

70AD (1)
Nothing.

IBT
The Mongols want Peace Treaty for Republic + 40g: I deny.

90AD (2)
We disperse a barb camp and get 25g. Raise science to 80%, -22gpt, Feudalism in 7(instead of 8).

Trading WM around, gets us 12g.

110AD (3)
Trade WM, nets us 5g.

We can drop science to 70%, Feudalism in 4: some civs have it, but they don't want to trade for it.

IBT
Spain asks for Peace Treaty and Monotheism: I deny.

Japn begins SunTzu's.

130AD (4)
The Iroquis still want 120g for Peace Treaty, so I pass.

Trade around WM, nets us 7g.

IBT
My worse fears happen! Madras DEPOSED back to Indians, and we lost 1 fortified sword.

150AD (5)
I stop the 4 foreing workers cutting the forest, because Madra's culture has it inside it's borders...

Trade WM around netting 8g, Feudalism next turn, marketplace in 2. We can buy Feudalism for WM + 10g if we want to, so we start on the next tech(Engineering) 1 turn sooner. No one will trade us Engineering.

Frankish Axemen are 20 shields? Wow. I thought they were 40. Too bad Madras flipped.

I think you should buy Feudalism now, because I'm fairly sure that our income is more that 10gpt. I hope it is, at least. :(

I kind of expected that Madras would flip, but what could I do? Maybe we had to starve it, since it was right next to the Indian capital and had 3 Indian citizens.

Thats why we have to use opportunity "Remove force or Declare"!!! We'd had reputation clean and capture Madras back. Also forest will come to us....

I wrote, that better to continue wars and and not to build marketplace.
Now I have only 2 advises (Not sure that very good):
1) Make embassy in Japan and get Engeneering+42 for MA and 15 gpt.
2) Attack Core spanish Cities

I kind of expected that Madras would flip, but what could I do? Maybe we had to starve it, since it was right next to the Indian capital and had 3 Indian citizens.
Rush workers there. I think we have to trade Engeneering with Japan for MA vs Atctek.
Then get Feo from Kelts for Eng and MA vs Atsteks. If they kill them we save smthing.
Alternatively we may research Chivliry wuthout Engeeniring...
Attack Core spanish Cities anyway...

Frankish Axemen are 20 shields? Wow. I thought they were 40. Too bad Madras flipped.

I think you should buy Feudalism now, because I'm fairly sure that our income is more that 10gpt. I hope it is, at least. :(
You misunderstand: it is 40 Shields, but unfortunately we did not have many swords to upgrade.
We may trade Feo for 10 Lump sum, if we want...

I think better to have a night breake and see what Conehead and Adrean E will say about situation...

We are WAY TOO WEAK to go on the offensive.

We are at war with 6AIs. All our alliances appear to be over. All the AIs want all our gold plus for peace. We can't afford that.

We have 15 turns of peace with India left. We need to hit India with a death blow then.

We can buy China into a few wars with the republic. They will give us their 19G, WM and ally against all our enemies for republic. They are losing to the Vikings though.
Buy China in against France and Iroquois and England but not the Mongols (China will get killed as they are right beside them) or Spain (make peace with Spain after we take the city on our island).

Build order should be - finish market place
- spear (to relieve sword on our iron)
- MDI (to take spanish city with 2 swords - it should grow to size 2 by then)
- spear to sit on horse
- disconnect the iron, build 5 warriors, reconnect iron, upgrade to MDI
- connect the horses, build horsemen in Moscow, ready for knight upgrade.
- ship MDI to India

No offensives unless they can be succesful and captured cities kept. We should not have made peace with India until we had moved their capital.

Lahore needs to be our base on the mainland. It needs Library, barracks, harbor and Moscow or cuidad needs a harbor (to connect resources to Lahore).

We need 1 more galley to transfer our units sooner, as it takes centuries to upload 1-2 units with 2 galleys.

We don't need another spear for the iron colony: I'll send our second spear there(it went and destroyed a barb camp).

If we destroy our iron colony, we must again use a worker to make the colony, and we'll soon need them to improve the Spanish city, once we capture it, as well as to improve other cities from civs that we'll settle soon on our island. The foreing workers are for free, so we should use our native worker for a colony or join him.

The marketplace will give us more gold and happyness for our citizens in Moscow: we could also bring down the pop in Moscow(from pop 12 that is now) by making forests, so the city hits 20 shields and builds Axemen every 2 turns.
Sure, we'll have less gold if we have pop 9-10 in Moscow, but we'll have an Axeman every 2 turns and we can also lower our science for a while: right now we need to capture as many cities as we can and start to improve them so they're able to help us.
If you agree, I'll start planting a forest in Moscow right away with our native worker.

I'd go after India for good, after 15 turns, so Moscow should built another galley, and then Axemen all the way.

2 swords outside the Spanish city should be enough to take it.

I'll make the MA's you mentioned and try to get Engineering.

EDIT: We can also set Lahore to a galley and rush it after a few turns, so Moscow starts on Axemen right away after the marketplace.

1) We are WAY TOO WEAK to go on the offensive.

2)We are at war with 6AIs. All our alliances appear to be over. All the AIs want all our gold plus for peace. We can't afford that.

3)We have 15 turns of peace with India left. We need to hit India with a death blow then.

4) We can buy China into a few wars with the republic. They will give us their 19G, WM and ally against all our enemies for republic. They are losing to the Vikings though.
Buy China in against France and Iroquois and England but not the Mongols (China will get killed as they are right beside them) or Spain (make peace with Spain after we take the city on our island).

5) Build order should be - finish market place
- spear (to relieve sword on our iron)
- MDI (to take spanish city with 2 swords - it should grow to size 2 by then)
- spear to sit on horse
- disconnect the iron, build 5 warriors, reconnect iron, upgrade to MDI
- connect the horses, build horsemen in Moscow, ready for knight upgrade.
- ship MDI to India

6)No offensives unless they can be succesful and captured cities kept. We should not have made peace with India until we had moved their capital.

7) Lahore needs to be our base on the mainland. It needs Library, barracks, harbor and Moscow or cuidad needs a harbor (to connect resources to Lahore).
My stratigical mistake was war with France (and Alliance with Arabs for Monotheism).
We become very politically weak after that. Also Arabs got technology...
1) I almost agree. However I think we can make Alliance with Japan vs Atstek for Engeneering paying 15 gpt. War Japan-atstek will end up soon (Alliance with Kelts vs Atsteks) and we get engeneering "for free." I think we are too weak to send smth to spanish mainland.
2) untill they have astronomy there is no immediate thread.
3) Good. Lets concentrate on this target. 15 turns is a few...
4) It will be small disaster if viking capture Lighthose and sail to us. Also better to make peace somehow...
5) This programm take more then 15 turns. I think we may stay without horses Colony
Also upgrade programm take to many units in between. Better to optimize it somehow.
6) I agree...
7) The only question what is first. I think this order is correct.(Library, barracks, harbor ).

1)We need 1 more galley to transfer our units sooner, as it takes centuries to upload 1-2 units with 2 galleys.

2)We don't need another spear for the iron colony: I'll send our second spear there(it went and destroyed a barb camp).

3)If we destroy our iron colony, we must again use a worker to make the colony, and we'll soon need them to improve the Spanish city, once we capture it, as well as to improve other cities from civs that we'll settle soon on our island. The foreing workers are for free, so we should use our native worker for a colony or join him.

4)The marketplace will give us more gold and happyness for our citizens in Moscow: we could also bring down the pop in Moscow(from pop 12 that is now) by making forests, so the city hits 20 shields and builds Axemen every 2 turns.
Sure, we'll have less gold if we have pop 9-10 in Moscow, but we'll have an Axeman every 2 turns and we can also lower our science for a while: right now we need to capture as many cities as we can and start to improve them so they're able to help us.
If you agree, I'll start planting a forest in Moscow right away with our native worker.

5)I'd go after India for good, after 15 turns, so Moscow should built another galley, and then Axemen all the way.

6)2 swords outside the Spanish city should be enough to take it.

7) I'll make the MA's you mentioned and try to get Engineering.

8)EDIT: We can also set Lahore to a galley and rush it after a few turns, so Moscow starts on Axemen right away after the marketplace.
1) If you arrange ship chain wisely then 2 galleys just enough to transfer troops.
2) If we trade WM and know B/camps location we may defend our Colony via offence.
3) We can cut road to Colony, not Colony itself.
4) Now we have 2 food surplus, we will be at balance when you plant forest on Game and Tundra. Gold will be the same IMHO.
5)OK, but I think 2 Galleys is enough. But up to you...
6)hope so.
7)Yes, please...
8)Lahore needs Lib, Barracks, Harbor...

I was thinking to transfer a unit every 2-3 turns(the time Moscow needs to produce Axemen), but that isn't possible with only 2 galleys.

If all have stated their suggestions, I could play after a while(although I didn't hear from conehead234).

The other thing we should do is rush a spear or two in Madras and Lahore. If Spain attacks we will need the defensive units to cover our wounded swords.

Also the price for peace should go down as we get stronger and the AI's suffer war weariness. When it is cheap enough make peace with a couple AI's.

Trade every turn to keep the remaining AI's happy.

What should we do if an AI makes a demand on us? Give in or ignore them?

Pre-turn: Buy Feudalism from Zulu for WM + 9g(we save a turn this way). Start on Engineering.

1) @Ivan: We don't have an embassy with Japan, therefore we can't try to make MA against the Aztecs and try to buy Engineering: Embassy with Japan costs 108g.
2) The Iroquis will accept Peace Treaty + WM + 7g(all their gold) for Peace Treaty + Feudalism. Should we accept?

I'll wait a bit, because we should decide what to do: we cetainly need embassy with the other civs. No one will trade Engineering yet.

Looking at the save, We need gold and a way to end these wars. Looking at Map Stat Bangalore and Lahore both have a .47% chance of flipping back to India. Moscow should go Marketplace, then harbor, then pike. Our Spear in moscow can be upgraded to a pike for 20 gold. When we attack india, we should base in Banglore and head straight for Delhi. Knights may be our best option.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Ivan_SG005_AD0250_01.SAV

Pre-turn:
I sell WM around for various TM's and WM's, and get 6g in total.

I make Peace Treaty with the Iroquis: I offer Feudalism for WM + 7g(all their gold) - otherwise they wanted 119g(all our gold) and 2gpt -.

I establish embassy with Japan for 108g(I know, a lot of money): Kyoto is size 10, at 21spt, 3 Spears for MP(must be in Monarchy), building horseman. I offer Japan MA vs the Aztecs for 17gpt + 4g, and we get Engineering out of the deal.

Begin min on Chivalry.

IBT
England, Zulu begins Sun Tzu's.

170AD (6)
Begin planting forest in Moscow.

190AD (7)
Moscow: marketplace >> Axeman.

Trade WM and get 5g. Upgrade Moscow's spearman to pikeman for 20g.

210AD (8)
Trade WM around, and get 12g.
The Spanish city grew to size 2, but the sword went to destroy a barb camp that was threatening our workers(Route 66), so the sword and the Axeman(complete in 2 turns) will go and take the city soon.

230AD (9)
Our sword destroys the barb camp, we get 25g. Trade WM around, get 5g.

IBT
The Arabs demand WM + 21g: I give to them what they want.

250AD (10)
Moscow: Axeman >> Axeman. I upgrade a sword to Axeman for 20g. We destory another barb camp, get 25g. Trade WM around, get 5g.

Summary

1) 1 spear is returning to Moscow for upgrade to pikeman: We better fortify him to the iron colony, so we use our Axemen/swords elswhere(the barbs are focusing to destroy the colony).
2) We have a wounded swordsman(2hp): he should return to Moscow for upgrade to Axeman.
3) IMPORTANT: A barb camp appeared at the end of my turns(after trading WM's), and is 2 tiles from the iron colony. - An Axeman is heading towards the colony or to destory the barb camp.
Another barb camp is south of Moscow: after a while(if we don't destroy it) we might get pillaged.
4) The Spanish city is there to be taken now that has 2 pop.
5) NOTE: 2 Spanish swords were uploaded in Bangalore: I could attack them this turn, but I'll leave it to the Team to decide - I think that we have better chances attacking them than defending - anyway, they'll attack IBT, if we don't do it in the pre-turn.
6) I have kept the 2 Elite swords outside Lahore(in fear of flip), but the city still has 2 veteran swords to defend: 8 foreing workers are also outside the city(hidden by an Elite sword).

I'm not satisfied with my turns, as I lost a city :blush: Sorry Team.

EDIT: What should we do with the workers after they finish roading? We may send them back to Moscow to help our ONLY native worker to finish planting the forest sooner and start another one on the game-tile(as Ivan suggested), so we pump an Axeman every 2 turns.

btw: I left our 2 galleys fortified near Route 66.

Got it and might play either in the afternoon (Thats about 4-5 hours from now) or tomorrow. Since I'm not sure what to do, I'll wait until tomorrow and hear some advice.

We will want the horses hooked up ASAP. Thats what we want from the workers.

Also ship some of the foriegn workers back to our island. We can drop one off on the single tile mountain island to act as a observer. Edit: the square I was thinking of is connected to by tundra to the others. Forget it.

Horsemen will be much more effective at chasing down the barbarians.

Edit: I had a look at the save. Attack the French swords. We have veteran swords and the french have regular swords. We should win.

Adrian

I don't have time tonight to look at the save but we should try to get that Spanish city now. How about this use for the workers, after they are done improving land, send them to forest the tundra outside the borders of Moscow so they can slow down the barbarian advances on our city and give us more warning when they get closer to Moscow.

Our native worker needs 9 turns to plant the forest, and we need another forest: maybe we could bring 4 workers - out of 8 - from Lahore to help and also to improve the land of the Spanish city(once we take it). An Axeman every 2 turns in Moscow, will save our day.

The swords in Bangalore are Spanish: I got a bit confused reading "French".

As for the horses colony, it'd be good to have it, but I don't know how much the colony will last, as the other civs have already started to settle our island: Spain first, India will follow soon(has already settled the little island north of Route 66).

Spain knows Feudalism(Axemen); maybe we need 1 more pike in Moscow, along with catapult and Axeman? I wouldn't want to see 2 Axemen land near Moscow, that is.

@conehead: After Tomoyo, you'll change the roster or continue as it is? - Because you missed your turns while you were away.

1) We will want the horses hooked up ASAP. Thats what we want from the workers.

2)Also ship some of the foriegn workers back to our island. We can drop one off on the single tile mountain island to act as a observer. Edit: the square I was thinking of is connected to by tundra to the others. Forget it.

3)Horsemen will be much more effective at chasing down the barbarians.

4) Edit: I had a look at the save. Attack the French swords. We have veteran swords and the french have regular swords. We should win.

Adrian
1) I agree. I think we shoud send workers from end 66 to connect horses. 1 may build road.
2) I disagree. This workers should plant/cut forest at each tile. K-A should do it from his turns. Start from tundra. Optimize distribution.
3)Exactly!
4) Sure, before they fortified.
Also, early AdreanE recomendation to cut Iron and build warriors and upgrade looks good. Before that better to build Pickmans or horses. No need to uprade Spear. It also can fight against Barbs.

K-A wrote:
"Pre-turn:
I sell WM around for various TM's and WM's, and get 6g in total.

I make Peace Treaty with the Iroquis: I offer Feudalism for WM + 7g(all their gold) - otherwise they wanted 119g(all our gold) and 2gpt -.

I establish embassy with Japan for 108g(I know, a lot of money): Kyoto is size 10, at 21spt, 3 Spears for MP(must be in Monarchy), building horseman. I offer Japan MA vs the Aztecs for 17gpt + 4g, and we get Engineering out of the deal.

Begin min on Chivalry. "

My test gives 15 gpt at preturn (150BC). I think the reason you get Feo and make treaty first. But you never know befor try... Actually after Feo it was even Cheaper (13 gpt). I checked. Looks, that reason our peace with Iroques. Now chanses that war will be short are slim.
Also, you should make MA with Kelts vs Atstecs. Atsteks bend better for peace in this case.
Also, you may calculate that deLuna grow at your 7th turn and strike it at once. Now, they can build worker or second spear.
Instead of Chivalry better to take more expesive Tech for "40 turn gambit"

1)Our native worker needs 9 turns to plant the forest, and we need another forest: maybe we could bring 4 workers - out of 8 - from Lahore to help and also to improve the land of the Spanish city(once we take it). An Axeman every 2 turns in Moscow, will save our day.


2)As for the horses colony, it'd be good to have it, but I don't know how much the colony will last, as the other civs have already started to settle our island: Spain first, India will follow soon(has already settled the little island north of Route 66).

3)Spain knows Feudalism(Axemen); maybe we need 1 more pike in Moscow, along with catapult and Axeman? I wouldn't want to see 2 Axemen land near Moscow, that is.

4) @conehead: After Tomoyo, you'll change the roster or continue as it is? - Because you missed your turns while you were away.
1) It is not efficient to transfer workers. They can work at India. Start now.
Also, we may be reasonable (before) not to build 66 so long. Via deLuna we'll get the same numbers of turns.
2) We are at war with spain and will be with India soon. Colonies should work.
3) Defenders will not help that much. But better to have at least 1/City...
4) That means that AdreanE swap with conehead. If it is mor convinent for them they might decide. Also Conehead may play more turns (But I think everybody can without pre discussion).

I had the sword just outside deLuna to strike, but a barb appeared 2 tiles away from the workers(they made a road then), and I had to go towards the barb and then destroy the camp itself.

We have 2 Axemen: 1 goes towards deLuna and can destroy the barb camp 2 tiles away from the iron colony, and another Axeman came from upgrading a sword and is inside Moscow(just got upgraded and cannot move in the pre-turn). DeLuna should be ours very soon - we also have the sword that is nearby.

Currently, the Kelts want Engineering for MA against the Aztecs, should the next player take the deal or not?

What will be our tech path?

btw: do not move any workers from Lahore to Bangalore, by land: India warned once and the other turn was "remove my troops automatically - or war", the galleys were ordered a few tiles back because there were a Spanish gally in the area that would attack, and the workers stayed there.
I only mined the grass in Lahore, so the Library finishes a lot sooner - I should have started forest after that, as Ivan said.

1) I had the sword just outside deLuna to strike, but a barb appeared 2 tiles away from the workers(they made a road then), and I had to go towards the barb and then destroy the camp itself.

2)We have 2 Axemen: 1 goes towards deLuna and can destroy the barb camp 2 tiles away from the iron colony, and another Axeman came from upgrading a sword and is inside Moscow(just got upgraded and cannot move in the pre-turn). DeLuna should be ours very soon - we also have the sword that is nearby.

3)btw: do not move any workers from Lahore to Bangalore, by land: India warned once and the other turn was "remove my troops automatically - or war", the galleys were ordered a few tiles back because there were a Spanish gally in the area that would attack, and the workers stayed there.
I only mined the grass in Lahore, so the Library finishes a lot sooner - I should have started forest after that, as Ivan said.

4) Currently, the Kelts want Engineering for MA against the Aztecs, should the next player take the deal or not?

5) What will be our tech path?
1) I see. However this road is not that important. however 25 golds soonner.
2) Hope they wil not build worker or second spear before.
3) Plant forest at tundra. then at grasland.
4) Not sure. We may wait and see. May be Japan declare us... (J/K) Anyhow if somebody declare us do not pay. In this case we will be able to stay 10% Lux.
5) Don't know Initialy I thought that Chivalry will be our last tech. But now I am affraid that MT will be not enough to finish... I think we may increase sci to get Chivlry sooner. I also think that education (university) will help. Let discuss.

Pre-flight: Kill both Spanish swords, losing one hp.

IT: China and Vikings sign peace.

260AD: FA kills barb warrior threatening our Iron colony, losing one hp. MM for an extra gold piece.

IT: :sleep:

270AD: Net 7gp for selling maps. Bust a camp and elite a sword. Damnit. Move a galley close to a Spanish galley. (empty)

IT: Japs ask for 25 WM. I don’t give. Oops.

280AD: Not much.

IT: :sleep:

290AD: Advance on Ciudad.

300AD: Capture Ciudad! One resistor. No casualties other than the Spanish spear.

IT: Abe comes knocking. Let him in. (give him 30 gold) Resistance in Ciudad ends.

310AD: Make peace with the Spanish for 17 gold and their World Map.

320AD: Send a FA pair to the Indian continent. New barb camp.

330AD: Indians land a settler pair at the north of our island! [party]

340AD: Not much

350AD: Get ready to form a horse colony.

Summary:
No cities lost.
Ciudad captured.
Library built.
FAs every three turns, could be two with some foresting.
Indians have a settler pair near the north of our island.

The save for your convience: SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Ivan_SG005_AD0350_01.SAV)

Got it. I'll play tommorrow.

I had a look at the save.

We are even with most civs tech wise.

We are at war with Aztecs, Japan, England, France, Vikings and Mongols.

We can buy peace for Engineering from Aztecs and Mogols and then turn them against someone else for Feudalism. Do we want to do that?

The keltoi and iroquois are down Engineering. We can buy them into a war with that. Do we want that?

We don't yet have embassies with all. Do we want embassies?

We will need to prep for a war with India. How strong should we be when we strike?

Adrian

The spot that the Indians are trying to settle, is PERFECT!!! Let them settle near the cattle, and have 1 Axeman, along with a sword(just in case), and take it after we declare and take the war at the main Indian land.

We also need a unit to watch out the horse colony, and the iron colony.

I'd say to build a pikeman to go to deLuna, so we can transfer our Axeman to India(our units should go outside Bangalore - 2 Axemen are enough to face Madras, along with 2 Elite swords, and maybe 1 more sword from Lahore).

We can make embassy with most civs: we earn enough money to have a surplus for the war.

After Chivalry, maybe we should follow the bottom tech path to get to MT.

Just a few thoughts.

Looked at save. Some recomendation:
At preturn:
1) Send Pickman to protect future horse Colony NOW.
2) to get harbor soonner cut forest Near Lahore
3) Increase Scince. Reduce LUX.
4) I reccomend Send 3 swords to Madras (2 Axeman will unload near next turn)
Lux may be 0% then with 1 clown.
5) Build Pickman, and then Horsemans in Moscow.
6) Trade WM now and each turns.
7) Indian City will be size 2 after 7 turns. Get ready.

Got it. I'll play tommorrow.

1) We can buy peace for Engineering from Aztecs and Mogols and then turn them against someone else for Feudalism. Do we want to do that?

2) The keltoi and iroquois are down Engineering. We can buy them into a war with that. Do we want that?

3) We don't yet have embassies with all. Do we want embassies?

4) We will need to prep for a war with India. How strong should we be when we strike?

Adrian

5) We can make embassy with most civs: we earn enough money to have a surplus for the war.

6) After Chivalry, maybe we should follow the bottom tech path to get to MT.


1-2) I think not. There is no reason to distribute Techs too fast. Also they will make peace soon. (Like arabs with French) I think we may consider Alliance for 10 gpt if we want.
3) What for?
4) I think we may declare now. 3 swords+2 axeman will be enough to take Madras...
5) Better to increas Sci to get Chivalry soonner. Game shows that we cant benefite from embassies that much.
6) I think better go to Deity like route: Education-Astronomy.(Trade). Also if we trade education to france we cansel TGL.

I've played.

Preturn:
Switch Cuidad deLuna to Library and rush for 120G (we need expansion to have productive city)
Switch Moscow to Pikeman
Switch Banglore to single scientist (can support pop 4, sci to 0%)

Buy WM from china and trade it around

360AD disperse Barbarian camp, spain land on our island, arabs have learned Chivalry

370AD Vikings start Leo's - they have learned invention

380AD, Lots of civs hav theology, and Chivalry, Vikings only have invention

Buy Theology and Alliance vrs England from Keltoi for 316G, WM and 27GPT. They are likely to break deal so we will get our gpt back.

Sell Theology to Arabs for Chivalry, 72G and 5GPT. I resist the urge to sell the techs for bargain basement prices as Ivan hates that.

Set research to Education at minimum (single scientist in Banglore)

390AD trade WMs

400AD rush spear in Banglore, embassy with America - they are at war with India

410AD - Egypt demands TM, 29G - I give in.

420AD - America has Invention, we could trade for it in an alliance against India, but it would take most of our cash. I don't do it.
Declare war on India

IBT - America and India make peace. Doh!

430AD - Indian elephant redlines killing a sword at banglore

440AD - RNG hates us. Lose a veteran sword attacking redlined elephant. Lose 2 frankish axemen to take Madras from a regular spear. Madras has a barracks. yeah!
England land horse between Madra and Lahore

450AD - kill 2 indian axemen, english horse

Note to next player - you can buy WM from Egypt each turn and make a profit selling it around. Madras is on a diet. Starve it to size 1.

There are two Axemen in Cuidad de luna ready for transport. The horses will be hooked up soon.

??? The horses will be hooked up soon???
Colony was ready at 350 BC what happend?
I see: you build road instead!!! It is useless!
Stop worker and build Colony, please...
Why you delay with war with India? Did you reduce Lux?
I see, you did not.
Conehead, please. We can stay at 0%lux...
Hope you'll carry out war better...

I don't get it. Why the horses not hooked up already?

Should we stop at Delhi (If we can even make it that far)?

We need those horse hooked up now. Why did you hand 300 some gold and 27 GPT over to the Celts. I am going to take the turns now to try to fix the mess.

I got delayed will play tomorrow. But from What I looked at, I can construct the colony on the horses during the preturn.

I guess you guys didn't like my turns!

I got us Theo and Chiv for much much *cheaper* and much *faster* than we could research it. I got another AI involved in a pointless war for less than the 15GPT budget Ivan set (adding the war was only 14GPT extra). I took two Indian cities as soon as I could. I had to wait until I transported some axemen over. The 5 units we had over there would have NEVER survived to take and hold Madras given that 4 died.
Ivan's early attack would have cost us *BOTH* cities.

LUX at 0 was not a viable option after the foriegn cities grew to size 3.

I launched the war AS SOON AS I deemed it likely to succeed. PERIOD. You guys need to CHILL OUT.

You need a road in a resource to connect the resource. That's why I built a road.

@AdrianE: Of course you need a road(s) to connect a resourse, but, if I understood correctly from what you've said, you don't need a road on the resourse itself, as the colony makes that automatically.

A few points:
1) Bangalore got into starvation(3 pop now), and we need to work the irrigated grassland to have zero growth and keep our lonely scientist.

2) All of our transfered troops should go for Delhi itself, IMHO, the same with the other troops once they get healed. This war should carry on until the end this time, and beyond(Hyderabad is there to be taken when we're done with the Indian mainland).

3) Moscow's micro-management should be changed a bit: we can make 2gpt more if we swap from a mined tundra to the furs-forest(18spt) so we make 20gpt, and when we complete the other forest, Moscow will reach 20spt(if we again swap from working lake-tile into working the new forest), but Moscow then needs a courthouse, because it wastes 1 shield.
We definetly need to reach 20shields in Moscow, so we make an Axeman every 2 turns or a knight every 4 turns.
I disagree with 0% lux, because otherwise we won't be able to produce 20 shields out of Moscow - I think we can run 10% lux(but, that's my opinion).

Even if we don't care about building Axemen at all inside 2 turns, we need a courthouse at 18spt in Moscow, so we built knights every 4 turns(72shields out of 70 needed for a knight), instead of 5 turns.

Anyway, feel free to say what do you think of the above, as I may be wrong!

Here is my example of early war with Indians. Because they have no elephants things go lot easear. Also I use max Sci and 0% Lux (My style). As a result I got Theo, Invention, Chivalry and Indian's Cities... don't play this file. It is only example, unfortunately.
IMHO that discussion that AdreanE carry out is the best in our team. (He set goals right and has lot of good ideas.) Sometimes happend, that excelent theorist can not implement his own ideas. Hope that he will stay in the game and we'll listen more from him. I'd like to listen ASAP long term future plan from AdreanE.
Regards, Ivan.

A few points:
1) Bangalore got into starvation(3 pop now), and we need to work the irrigated grassland to have zero growth and keep our lonely scientist.

2) All of our transfered troops should go for Delhi itself, IMHO, the same with the other troops once they get healed. This war should carry on until the end this time, and beyond(Hyderabad is there to be taken when we're done with the Indian mainland).

3) Moscow's micro-management should be changed a bit: we can make 2gpt more if we swap from a mined tundra to the furs-forest(18spt) so we make 20gpt, and when we complete the other forest, Moscow will reach 20spt(if we again swap from working lake-tile into working the new forest), but Moscow then needs a courthouse, because it wastes 1 shield.
4)We definetly need to reach 20shields in Moscow, so we make an Axeman every 2 turns or a knight every 4 turns.
I disagree with 0% lux, because otherwise we won't be able to produce 20 shields out of Moscow - I think we can run 10% lux(but, that's my opinion).

Even if we don't care about building Axemen at all inside 2 turns, we need a courthouse at 18spt in Moscow, so we built knights every 4 turns(72shields out of 70 needed for a knight), instead of 5 turns.

Anyway, feel free to say what do you think of the above, as I may be wrong!
1) Yes.
2) Unfortunately Indians now at GA. Things depend on how many Elephants they have...
Now they agree to give 2 small Cities. Not sure, however, that we want it.
3) We may stay 0% Lux and 10% lux. (Governor at Madras, Single Sci in Bandalore, Clown at Moscow) or 10% lux. We will lose 4gpt at10%. Corruption now reduses the same spt at Moscow. When we plant forest 10% better.
4) We may want 18 spt (4 turn knight), 17, 16, 15 also gives the same result, we only need rush sometking at second or third turn. Do you know this techique?
Suggestions for preturn.
1] Build Colony.
2] Change to knight.
3] Move Galley for ship chain.
4] Reduce Lux.
5]Mkmng Bangalore.
Conehead most experiesed battelfield commander, he will decide about peace and combats.
Better to rush harbors ASAP, to upgrade swords.

Yes, the other alternative is to reduce lux at 10% and rush knights at the 3rd turn with the extra income/gpt that we have in the bank: around 29-30g(per turn) out of 92 for rushing an Axeman every 2 turns(or around the same money for rushing a knight every 3 turns).

Except from the harbors, I'd say to rush a unit when we have the cash to do so: this way we'll become powerful soon, and have the units to strike the Indians and/or the Americans.

@AdrianE: Of course you need a road(s) to connect a resourse, but, if I understood correctly from what you've said, you don't need a road on the resourse itself, as the colony makes that automatically.


I was unaware of this. Not that it mattered much. A barb camp appeared 2 squares away from the horses on my 2nd turn. I had to scramble to save the worker.

Yes, the other alternative is to reduce lux at 10% and rush knights at the 3rd turn with the extra income/gpt that we have in the bank: around 29-30g(per turn) out of 92 for rushing an Axeman every 2 turns(or around the same money for rushing a knight every 3 turns).

Except from the harbors, I'd say to rush a unit when we have the cash to do so: this way we'll become powerful soon, and have the units to strike the Indians and/or the Americans.
With 10% Lux our spt will be the same. Technique I mentiond is:
for 17 spt rush catapult (12 gold) and knight will be 3 turns after.
With 15 or 16 spt rush axeman at turn 2 (32-40 gold) and knight will be after 2 turns
We also may rush knight and change to harbor in deLuna.

I think that we should make peace with India as soon as possible. But I will see how events unfold, because we may be able to defeat them. Since their elephants require no resources we cannot stop the flow of them. What we need to do is cut off their productive cities. Pillaging anyone? Will be back will further comments later.

I guess you guys didn't like my turns!

1)I got us Theo and Chiv for much much *cheaper* and much *faster* than we could research it.
2) I got another AI involved in a pointless war for less than the 15GPT budget Ivan set (adding the war was only 14GPT extra).
3) I took two Indian cities as soon as I could. I had to wait until I transported some axemen over.
4) The 5 units we had over there would have NEVER survived to take and hold Madras given that 4 died.
Ivan's early attack would have cost us *BOTH* cities.

5) LUX at 0 was not a viable option after the foriegn cities grew to size 3.

6) I launched the war AS SOON AS I deemed it likely to succeed. PERIOD. You guys need to CHILL OUT.


6) The game looks to be long and we should analize our "mistakes" to play consistently. As I wrote my most terible mistake was "Declare war to French." However my style is different and I tend to research at max and manipulate AI having Tech advances. It is not the case at 1CCB. I dont like 40 turns gambit, but now it is only option.
5) May be 0% Lux is extream, but to strave Madras it is OK, 10% also possible.
4-3) If arrange ship chain we'll get 2 more axemans just in time to take Deli.
You never know in advance however. Delay with war was "resonable". I am not sure about Alliance with americans, now, at least, we can quit from war with profit.
1-2) I think might be better to trade Invention for /gpt and change Invention to Theology with Iroqueses. But Invention was more expensive, and, probably Alliance woud not work then. Now we have slim chanses to pay less.
What to do next?
Short term plan is to build /rush harbors.
Watch at war with Mongols. Zulu win, and few turns later we may demand 1 of their Island City.
What we want from Indians? Cities or Invention?
Who is our next target? Spain looks more resonable. Do we want Allianse with Americans for that?
Long term plans
Corthouse and FP in Lahore. With M-Bax mode we have to build FP Brick by brick.
Peace with Vikings.
Expedition to Bejdgin. Lighthose may help. Do we need Navigation?
Very Long term plans
Clean Northen Island. It may take 70-100 turns from now.
I am affraid that we will face industrial war at big continent...

I think we want Invention from India. It is one step closer to Cavalry and our UU.

Why not attack the Americans next? They just finished a war with India and lost. Some of their cities will be productive for us. That will give us a land route to Spain.

This is a very big world. It will take a LONG time to win although cossacks will take a lot of territory.

I think we want our FP somewhere where we can get a decent 2nd core going. Delhi, Washington or New York are possible sites.

A rushed library in Madras should push Delhi's boundaries back if we can't take delhi.

From looking at map stat, Madras has a less than 1% chance of flipping. I will play tonight.

EDIT-I got about half way done, will finish tomorrow. We can get Seattle and that city on the island between us and India for peace. They will not give up invention. Should I go for it?

A couple of things occured to me:

We have been at war with the French, Vikings, England for a very long time. We should start to see a few galleys with invading units. We should have a reaction force to kill the invaders.

A couple of Japanese samurai (4.4.2) could make a real mess if we are not ready.

Our any of our cities vulnerable to flipping to the Americans? What garrisons would we need to eliminate the flip chances?

A couple of things occured to me:

We have been at war with the French, Vikings, England for a very long time. We should start to see a few galleys with invading units. We should have a reaction force to kill the invaders.

A couple of Japanese samurai (4.4.2) could make a real mess if we are not ready.

Our any of our cities vulnerable to flipping to the Americans? What garrisons would we need to eliminate the flip chances?
The only way is over the Spainish coast. We'll see it near Lahore IMHO.
Sure, it will be better to make peace with Vikings, but I do not wish to pay any gpt for that. I hope, that until Atsteks in war with Japan they will send Samurais there. May be we can make peace+Alliance? BTW, will our rep hit if they break deal (Make peace with jupan?). Lahore can, actually. I think better push Amerecans off. Conegead may know with mapstat.
The major worry is Mongols. We have to somehow get this single tile City. Otherwise we will stuck untill mariners.
Conehead did not finish in 72 hours. I'll play in about 13 hours from now if he will not appear.
Regards, Ivan

From looking at map stat, Madras has a less than 1% chance of flipping. I will play tonight.

EDIT-I got about half way done, will finish tomorrow. We can get Seattle and that city on the island between us and India for peace. They will not give up invention. Should I go for it?
I think Invention+30-30 gold better then Seattle. We'll have problems with am war

Preturn (450AD)- Build colony on horses with worker. MM moscow and Bangalore, lux down to 10%. Switch Moscow to knight.
IT-Indians come dialing for Peace, I cannot get invention from them but I can get Hyperabad and Seattle. I decide to wait to see if I can get Invention at a later turn. An Indian Elephants attack our Frankish Infantry and we win, our soldier promotes to elite. Bangalore Spearman->Spearman.
Turn 1 (460 AD)- Load galley with 2 axemen. Move galley north. 2 swords and an axeman head north toward Calcutta.
IT-resistance in Madras ends
Turn 2 (470AD)- 2 swords and an axemen continue north. Move galleys north.
IT-Resistance in Bengal ends. Madras now size 2.
Turn 3 (480AD)- Rush Library in Madras for 144 gold. Kill a Indian Axemen. Unload 2 axemen in Lahore.
IT-Lose an axeman to an Indian Archer. Moscow Knight->knight. Madras Library->Spear
Turn 4(490 AD)- Our 2 swords by Calcutta are in danger of being killed by the Indians. I believe we cannot take the city because it is size 7 and is defended by most likely more than one pike. Sign peace with India gaining invention for 88 gold.
IT- Nada
Turn 5 (500AD)- Nada
IT-Spain unloads a settler pair west of our horse colony. I think they are going to try to steal it.
Turn 6 (510 AD)- I cannot let spain steal our horses. I will have to take a risk. Declare war on Spain. Move a knight outside Zaragoza. Attack Spanish Settler pair with pike and we lose, the enemy spear is redlined. Move pike from Iron colony westward. Rush harbor in Ciudad de la Luna.
IT-Madras borders Expand. Ciudad de la Luna Harbor->rax. Spanish settler pair fortifies.
Turn 7 (520 AD)- Kill spanish spear with pike and capture a settler (+2 workers). Horse colony is saved. Knight kills spear in Zaragoza and we capture the city.
IT- Nada
Turn8 (530AD)- No one is willing to sign peace without an expensive price
IT- America and France sign a Military alliance against us. Darn it. Moscow Knight->Knight.
Turn9 (540AD)-Move soldiers. We cannot almost get Hovd from the Mongols for peace.
IT-American Axeman appears.
Turn 10 (550AD)- Now the Mongols will not even consider giving us Hovd for peace. Move troops.

The SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Ivan_SG005_AD0550_01.SAV)

Ok, we currently have 2 knights, both on our orginal continent. 2 galleys are in the Ciudad de la Luna, waiting to ship them over. On the other continent, we have about 4 swords and 3 axemen. We should play defensive untill the American Attack slows down and then strike for Atlanta. I hope that Ciudad de la Luna can become a second troop producing place because we need more troops. Do not throw soldiers away. Currently none of our cities have a flip risk. Make sure you check every turn to try to get Hovd from the Mongols.

Mapo

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Ivan_550AD.JPG

1) England(you can see their galley outside Lahore) will accept Peace Treaty, paying WM + 29g + 3gpt - we don't have an MA against them anymore, do we? I'd take the deal, as is good.
2) We should establish an embassy with India for 36g.
3) Bangalore could switch to temple to push it's borders a bit, so it can work more tiles, and to grow more.
Don't forget that we have 4 foreing workers fortified in Bangalore - last time India wouldn't let them to walk to Madras, so, either we transfer them somehow or sign RoP with India(after the embassy)?
4) IMHO, we should hurry the harbor in Lahore at the pre-turn, so Madras can produce pikemen and not spearmen: we'll also have another horse resource(near Madras - yes, we have another horse resource, so no need to worry about the colony, IMHO).
5) I'd let Moscow to built 2 pikemen in a row, so we remove the knight/Axeman from Zaragoza and remove the Elite sword from Bengal
- btw: Bengal could help us a lot if we improve it's land(maybe we should transfer the 4 workers from Bangalore to our island to improve the land faster, as we really need other strong cities beside Moscow).
6) Beware that Spain can unload knights in our island.
7) Watch for the barbs to not pillage Moscow and also watch for our iron colony, because if we lose it it's not good at all.

Look at the save. What do you think about an idea to gift Bangalore to Mongols before Capital goes to Hovd??

To clarify my #1 in the previous post: England will pay us for the Peace Treaty and for the gold I mentioned(haggle to get the deal).

I'd sent the knight from Zaragoza to be loaded at the pre-turn with the other knight at DeLuna.

About Hovd(this is how I see the situation: I may be wrong):
Why is Hovd so important to us to gift Bangalore? To invade the big continent? That will take much time and by then we'd have caravels/galleons.

If you look at the map, there're various sea-paths for someone to reach us: for example, Japan settled Nagasaki east of our island, so, it can unload some units to our island also.

Anyway Ivan, you're a better strategist than me, and I may be wrong, as I said: if you want to gift Bangalore, don't forget to move the units and the 4 workers inside the city. Please, explain the importance of Hovd.

I've played 4 turns. things are very good.

One thing I forgot about Hovd: yes, it'd take us to have marines to attack and take it later on, as already has been mentioned - I think that the game may reach up to that point so we'd be able to produce marines, what do you think?

EDIT: Ivan you're a brilliant tactician :goodjob:
You took Hovd :) , and you captured Atlanta. We should rush the library in Hovd, and also make a temple, so the city doesn't flip to the Zulu.
btw: what do you say about starving Atlanta(while we make workers) so we minimize the risk of a flip(remember Madras before)?

India will settle near our horse colony, but that's ok, since we have horses near Madras, and besides, we also need others to settle to our island ;)
The pikeman from the horse colony should go to Bengal, so when we attack India again, we can protect it.

I was wandering: if we also make that forest our workers currently built in Moscow, wouldn't the city starve? :confused:

We've made peace with Spain, Mongols and Vikings, good.

There's a French galley near Bangalore that could unload troops.

Forbidden Palace: IIMHO, Madras could start on a courthouse and begin the FP right after(of course, it may need a temple also, so all of it's citizens will work and not have some clowns), unless we have to decided to built the FP in Lahore(it builts courthouse).

Great Job Ivan.
Atlanta has a 1.67% chance of flipping so we are safe for the moment. But continue to starve it so we do not get unhappiness. Currently the Arabs, Japan, France and India have Printing Press. In my own opinion, we should take New York, Sign peace with America, regroup and then push to finish off India.

Wow, Ivan, great job so far. I agree with Conehead, although we may need to wait a bit before striking India again.

Played 3 more turns. Got education from English for alliance vs Kelts.
Stuck at NY's gates. Can get 1-2 Cities for peace deal -- not sure...
Make peace with French for Education, they will get it from TGL anyway.
What do we need first? Astronomy or Gunpowder?

1) One thing I forgot about Hovd: yes, it'd take us to have marines to attack and take it later on, as already has been mentioned - I think that the game may reach up to that point so we'd be able to produce marines, what do you think?

EDIT: Ivan you're a brilliant tactician :goodjob:
You took Hovd :) ,
2) and you captured Atlanta. We should rush the library in Hovd, and also make a temple, so the city doesn't flip to the Zulu.
btw: what do you say about starving Atlanta(while we make workers) so we minimize the risk of a flip(remember Madras before)?

3) India will settle near our horse colony, but that's ok, since we have horses near Madras, and besides, we also need others to settle to our island ;)
The pikeman from the horse colony should go to Bengal, so when we attack India again, we can protect it.

4) I was wandering: if we also make that forest our workers currently built in Moscow, wouldn't the city starve? :confused:

5) We've made peace with Spain, Mongols and Vikings, good.

6) There's a French galley near Bangalore that could unload troops.

7) Forbidden Palace: IIMHO, Madras could start on a courthouse and begin the FP right after(of course, it may need a temple also, so all of it's citizens will work and not have some clowns), unless we have to decided to built the FP in Lahore(it builts courthouse).
1)I think with Cossaks we finish game soon. We do not need 3/4 Industrial Techs. [We are lucky...]
2) I'll stay at war until Atlanta strave... What chances of Hovd flip?
I think, when it push border out it will be 0%. After all, If it will go to Zulu, it will not be their capital.
3) Until solid Tech leadership we need reputation clean. Do not attack Indians until treaty ends. Do not make peace with Kelts and Japan..
4) It is OK... Zero growth... We may cut and plant again...
5) Chain reaction. English and French also our "friends" now...
6) They did not. Probably it was empty.
7) Madras has Indian Citizen and stay close to Dely. It may flip at any time. Also with barracs it is MU factory. Lahore also good because of location. (less corruption and pick up Madras.) Do we want Aqueduct first in Lahore?
I think Lahore better.

The biggest flip is Atlanta with 1.79%(according to the 590AD save): Madras, Bangalore and Hovd are around 0.12 - 0.16% to flip.

I was thinking of Madras because it has far many tiles to work and can grow to pop12 with the lake nearby, so the FP will be ready sooner, but Lahore is also ok(although if the FP will take many turns to complete, it might not be so useful to us): I'd say to built it where it can be built faster.

OK, I'll not make peace with Japan and Kelts(in my turns, that is).

Here is latest save. probably will play tomorrow only. Any suggestions?

I see a Japan galley near our borders, so we need to watch it(maybe it'll unload units?)

I'd strike New York and take it. How long we'll continue the war with America? I see that we're progressing well.

The clowns of Atlanta are needed, as I see the current situation, otherwise they'd be taxmen.

It'd be good if we had a GL to form an Army; are we going to build the HE some time in the future to get more Elite units?
If we get an Army, we should load only 2 units(knights?) inside, so we can transfer it with caravels: does anyone think that we should keep an Army(s) to load it with cossacks, I mean, should we wait until MT if we get a GL?

The peace with India ends in 6 turns: are we going to strike immediately or not? I ask this, because we'd need to have troops in Bangalore and Madras(watch for war elephants).
We also need to have some units nearby and take the 2 Indian cities on our island when they reach pop2, or we can demand them in a peace treaty.

btw: don't we need to have temples in DeLuna and Bengal, so all the citizens will work(after a while)?

1)I see a Japan galley near our borders, so we need to watch it(maybe it'll unload units?)

2)I'd strike New York and take it. How long we'll continue the war with America? I see that we're progressing well.


3)It'd be good if we had a GL to form an Army; are we going to build the HE some time in the future to get more Elite units?

4)The peace with India ends in 6 turns: are we going to strike immediately or not? I ask this, because we'd need to have troops in Bangalore and Madras(watch for war elephants).
5)We also need to have some units nearby and take the 2 Indian cities on our island when they reach pop2, or we can demand them in a peace treaty.

6)btw: don't we need to have temples in DeLuna and Bengal, so all the citizens will work(after a while)?
1) I do. Thats why I delayed Knight and axeman transportation.
2) It will be third sirge. Not sure...
3)Defenetly we'll have Army. With 2 knights.
4-5) War with India looks more prospective in general...
6) You know, what I think about Temples. Without War happines we need 20% lux, it will be enough. Or trade after Astronomy...

Here is the save. Final. Turnlog tomorrow.
We have "Ivan the Terrible" in NY.
Let's discuss before play.
K-A, questions, please.

1. The Great Leader- Well since Madbax disabled rushing wonders we cannot build the FP. So that leaves us with an Army, which we should fill with Knights.

2. Saltpeter- We now have gunpowder which means Saltpeter becomes availible but we possess no Saltpeter. The nearest Saltpeter is deep in Indian Territory and Near Boston. America may be gassed so we could continue the war.

3. Research-We are researching Chemistry toward our Cossacks but it will be useless to us unless we get some Saltpeter. After Chemisty is done in 12 turns, we should trade or research Astronomy so we get better ships and can travel in sea tiles.

4. There is a Japanese horseman on our island and can reach our Iron colony in 3 turns. Japan wants Bengal for peace so that is out of the picture. The knight that will be completed next turn should go to kill the horseman.

5. America will offer Miami and Houston for peace, San Franisco and Houston, or Chicago for peace.

6. Flipping- None of our cities have a serious risk of flipping. New York is the highest with a .7% chance.

7. Upload the save to the server so our score is registered.

Very good playing, Ivan.

I'll wait for suggestions from you and from the Team, before I play.

Japan unloaded 1 horseman(we're lucky that it wasn't 2 samurai's). What we'll do with Japan, keep the war going(after we kill the horseman)?

I'll send the Elite knight to the other continent: Moscow produces another knight next turn, and the later can deal with the barbs.
We're going after India in 4 turns? Maybe I'll keep the Elite knight temporarily to attack Chittagong, then.

I'll make an Army with the 2 knights in Madras, if you all agree.

There's a Japanese galley outside Valencia(west of Egypt).

Are we sure that we want to mine the cattle in Bengal? With more food we'll have more citizens and the city could work the nearby forests.


Shall we continue the war with America or make peace? They'll give WM + Miami + Houston + 31g + 15gpt(with haggle)! I'm not sure about Houston(if we take the deal): maybe we'll gift it somewhere(is near Arabia).

Please post suggestions-ideas.

@conehead(I didn't see your latest post): are you suggesting to continue the war with America and take on India a bit later?

About the Army: the way I see it, IMHO, we should fill it with 3 knights, and here's why; it'll help us to conquer all the other island a lot sooner, so, we'll get benefitted from the cities captured and could begin improve them a lot sooner to make them productive, so in advance, we'll have more units and luxuries sooner, and that's more important(IMHO) from waiting to transfer the 2-unit-Army with a caravel.

Madras is ready to revolt next turn, and I think we should change to a temple.
Lahore could work the forest to make the courthouse in 14 turns instead of 18(still has 2 food surplus).

1) I'll wait for suggestions from you and from the Team, before I play.

2) Japan unloaded 1 horseman(we're lucky that it wasn't 2 samurai's). What we'll do with Japan, keep the war going(after we kill the horseman)?

3) I'll send the Elite knight to the other continent: Moscow produces another knight next turn, and the later can deal with the barbs.
We're going after India in 4 turns? Maybe I'll keep the Elite knight temporarily to attack Chittagong, then.

4) I'll make an Army with the 2 knights in Madras, if you all agree.

5) There's a Japanese galley outside Valencia(west of Egypt).

6) Are we sure that we want to mine the cattle in Bengal? With more food we'll have more citizens and the city could work the nearby forests.


7) Shall we continue the war with America or make peace? They'll give WM + Miami + Houston + 31g + 15gpt(with haggle)! I'm not sure about Houston(if we take the deal): maybe we'll gift it somewhere(is near Arabia).

1) Better wait what AdreanE will say. He see things that me and Conehead miss sometimes.
2)I sent Pickman to protect colony. Knight next turn also help to deal with horse.
3) I'd send Elite to North. Not sure about India...
4) Keep Army ouside of Madras, and any City that risk to flip.
5) Too bad. I'v make alliance vs Japanise. We can't make peace.
If they unload near Valencia we should gift it. To whom? The best is to Arabs for Peace. But they will not talk AFAIK.
6) Not sure. But I'm not sure that stop and Irrigate will be better.
7) Probably we'll continue. May be we'll able to demand Boston.

1. The Great Leader- Well since Madbax disabled rushing wonders we cannot build the FP. So that leaves us with an Army, which we should fill with Knights.

2. Saltpeter- We now have gunpowder which means Saltpeter becomes availible but we possess no Saltpeter. The nearest Saltpeter is deep in Indian Territory and Near Boston. America may be gassed so we could continue the war.

3. Research-We are researching Chemistry toward our Cossacks but it will be useless to us unless we get some Saltpeter. After Chemisty is done in 12 turns, we should trade or research Astronomy so we get better ships and can travel in sea tiles.

4. There is a Japanese horseman on our island and can reach our Iron colony in 3 turns. Japan wants Bengal for peace so that is out of the picture. The knight that will be completed next turn should go to kill the horseman.

5. America will offer Miami and Houston for peace, San Franisco and Houston, or Chicago for peace.

6. Flipping- None of our cities have a serious risk of flipping. New York is the highest with a .7% chance.

7. Upload the save to the server so our score is registered.
1. I think so. We may consider rush Corthouse for cash and Aqueduct with GL, to start FP soonner.
2. I think Boston more acceible. We really need saltpeter only for Cossacs.
3. We can't stay with this rate IMHO. But I estimate MT in 40 turns from now.
4. No Peace with Japan and Kelts. We have alliance vs them.. Think to whom gift Valensia.
5. That mean, they are weak. I'd try to crush them with Army.
6. Madras fliped, however...
7. Thanks.

Some thought.
Trade WM at preturn and each 1-2 turns later. Do not rush spear at Valensia and Lib in Hovd.
Save money for research. If Japan unload gift Valencia to Mongols.
Knight production in Moscow:
in 3 turns each.
After first turn (20-21 s) rush Pickman (36-40 gold) and change back to knight.
Reduce Science for that. Also cut forest. Will give the same effect.
Edit: New thoughts. In fact our army at North is not so strong. If we want to start war with Indians in 3 turns we have not much reinforcement.
We may make Peace with Amerucans now and Demand San-Francisko. (+34, +wm)
Do not make gpt deal together with Peace treaty Trere is a bug, and our reputation will be hit, if we start war after 20 turn.
As a separate deal make RoP with Amerivans.. Bring some troops to San-Francisco
It will be our base to attack when our deals will expire. Do not make Fur trade, trade route will be cut when we start war with Indians.

Ok, I'll wait for the other members to say their opinion.

Points so far:
1) If Japan unloads, gift Valencia to Mongols(I hope that the Mongol capital - Kazan - will not be captured IBT! - it's their last city). Otherwise, if Kazan falls IBT, I'd gift Valencia to Iroquis.
2) Madras needs badly a temple; maybe we should start it(next turn I'll have to make a taxman, and the city won't be as productive as it could be). It'll also need a courthouse after.
3) I'll change Lahore to work the forest instead of the coast, so the courthouse finishes in 14 turns instead of 18. Also, with the extra citizen in Lahore the next turn, I'll "borrow" the BG tile from Atlanta to give it to Lahore, and I'll mine it.
4) I'll not make peace with Japan and Kelts: we still have 16 turns in our MA with England. Unless England doens't break the alliance, I'll respect it.
5) I'd sure irrigate the cattle in Bengal, so we have more food.
I'll also transport 2-4 foreing workers back to our island to help with improving the land and cut/replant forests(we have MANY workers on the other island and we can afford it).
6) IMHO, an aqueduct in Lahore would be useless, as we haven't many more tiles to work(considering the tile from Atlanta and the tundra tile that we plant forest). We'll have 6 citizens to work the land, so, I'd start the FP ASAP after the courthouse.
7) I'll follow the 3-turn-knight instructions for Moscow.
8) The WM trading at every single turn, is very important, and we all should take the time needed to do it.
9) We shouldn't leave units inside cities, but outside, as Ivan said.

Questions/ideas:
1) I said earlier that we could fill a 3rd knight in the Army(once it arrives on the other island).
I know that we won't be able to transport it until galleons, BUT, IMHO, it'll help us A LOT to qonquer the other island sooner and we could begin sooner to make the captured-cities productive.
Don't forget that the Army could be sent to pillage resources/tiles, also. For example, we could pillage the horses/iron from America or from another civ, later on.

Maybe we should consider pillaging-tactics with America: without IRON, they can't produce Axemen/Khights: the war may take a little longer, but they'll fall apart without good units(they'll be fighting with archers/spears).
Without horses, they couldn't even built horsemen, and our knights could retreat aginst their obsolete units.

The saltpeter is difficult to pillage(Boston is on the way), but we can pillage the nearby tiles if we want(although it'll take a few turns to do so).

Anyway, I said an idea - comment on it.

NOTE: the Army will need to heal first, when I form it.
2) I suppose that next to strike is Washington, right? It'll have a few musketmen, but we'll see.
3) a) Can we trade Theology to the Aztecs for 18 gold(all their gold)? They're weak and the trade won't strengthen them, but we'll take money needed.
b) The Iroquis are also weak: can we trade them Printing Press for 39g(all their gold)?

That's it for now: more later.

@Ivan: of course, if we want SF, we should also make a RoP with America to move our units.

The thing is India: are we going for war in 3 turns(after I hit "enter")? If so, maybe Chicago would be better to take from America, because it's from the other side, but we also need to have more units to face the war elephants.

What do you say, make peace and take San Francisco, as you've said?

@K-A, I am writing turlog now and see, that game changes so dramatically, that you can not anticipate it NOW. May be more resonable if you make 3-4 turns, as me yesterday, and we'll discuss. I am at Moscow now and our time zones are close. I will buisy on Tuesday...
Comments to "Points so far:"
1)Yes, but Atcteks better then Iro.
2) The only remedy of Madras flip is to Capture Deli. That's why I recomend make Peace now and prepare to war with Indians. (See my edits).
3)Yes, cend more workers to Plant/cut forest between Madras/Lahore. Virtually build Wonder in Madras to direct forest to Lahore. It works. Also you may consider rush corthouse.
5)-8) I agree.
9) Knights will heal faster in Madras. (Barracks). But it is a risk.
Comments to "Questions/ideas"
1)Army heals very slow. Heal Knighst first, then Load to Army.
2)You have to make tough decision. One hand better to strike them NOW, but also India more "profitable".
3) Up to you. Intuitevly I don't like it, but in fact I see no harm from this trade.

"What do you say, make peace and take San Francisco, as you've said?" Exactly. Chicago may flip. I hope that Pickman with PoP will arrive faster then Indians. Or delay war with Indians 1-2 turns.

Ok, we may delay the war with India a couple turns to have the pikeman go to SF and to give our units time to heal/regroup.

I still wait for AdrianE/Tomoyo to say their ideas, before I play. If not tonight, I'll play tomorrow evening.

EDIT: I may play 3 turns now(until our peace with India expires) and we can discuss again, right?

EDIT2: AdrianE is online; I'll wait for his suggestions.

btw: I make a party soon, and maybe I can play later(if I'm not too tired or too drunk), otherwise, I'll play tomorrow.

EDIT: I may play 3 turns now(until our peace with India expires) and we can discuss again, right?
I think it will be the best. Make peace and RoP.
Ivan
Edit: Don't drink and DRIVE!!!

Don't worry, I make the party in my home, and, besides, I don't drink more than 1 drink when I'm driving.
Thanks for the advice.

EDIT: @Ivan, I'll play 3 turns now, as you said - I think that I can make it before the party starts :)

Irrigate the cattle near Bengal. Cut those grassland/forests near Bengal as well. We need another 4 or 5 workers on our island.

Consider a market in Madras, not a temple.

Either America or India have to go so that we get saltpeter.
It doesn't matter which. I think America would be easier. We should decrease research so that military tradition is timed with our acquisition of saltpeter and lots of cash for upgrades. We have Chemistry, metalurgy and then MT to go. That is likely 60 turns at maximum research. Every marginally productive city needs a library to speed research. The added research from rushed (and cheap) libraries will keep the pace up even if we reduce research %.

We can use lots of cash to rush things. Bengal has the possibility of being very productive. 2 irrigated grasslands and an irrigated cow can support 5 citizens who work forests. That will give us another city with 12 to 15 shields production. Improving bengal ASAP is important so rush granary, market, courthouse then barracks. Send every worker we can spare to improve this city. We may want to build a worker out of Moscow to help and then join Bengal to speed growth.

The only reason to build a knight army is to get the right to build the heroic epic. We can already build the heroic epic so why bother. A defensive army of pikes will cover our slow units and dissuade the AI from attacking. Offensive fast armies are slow to heal. It is quicker to heal the knights individually.

Note that only the Vikings, Arabs, Chinese and French have saltpeter that I can see. The AI's will fight over it.

Do not make gpt deal together with Peace treaty Trere is a bug, and our reputation will be hit, if we start war after 20 turn.As far as I know, if it is a complete per-turn deal without solid resources, we would not get a rep hit. However, if we declare war before 20 turns, we break our rep anyway.

As almost everything has been said, I don't have much left to say.

The army should not be used primarily for pillaging. We have too little troops to spare that. We need to keep the army near the front lines, at most going sixish tiles into enemy territory to pillage.

I'm still here: as it seems, we need some time to consider AdrianE's very valuable input.
I haven't played yet.

1) I'll start a marketplace in Madras then
2) I couldn't agree more with you for Bengal: we have to make this city pwoerful ASAP.
3) If we have the money, we could rush libraries needed.
4) So, you think that we should continue the war with America? We'll face muskets, but India also could already have a colony on the saltpeter and also will have it's elephants.
5) From now on, we'll have ONLY fast units: knights - cossacks, and I think that the Army will play crucial role in attacking and, as well, protecting our knights/cossacks where they go, so I'm for a knight Army.

EDIT: Sorry Tomoyo, you posted before me, but I did read your post also :)

EDIT2: The only thing is to know if we'll make peace with America, as Ivan said(he's very good tactician) - then I can play 3 turns and post back

"That is likely 60 turns at maximum research. Every marginally productive city needs a library to speed research." I think 45 turns. We will grow and have more Libs.
" 2 irrigated grasslands and an irrigated cow can support 5 citizens who work forests. That will give us another city with 12 to 15 shields production. Improving bengal ASAP is important so rush granary, market, courthouse then barracks. Send every worker we can spare to improve this city. We may want to build a worker out of Moscow to help and then join Bengal to speed growth."
Good points in general. I think we can skip Marketplace initially. Native worker from near Moscow can jojn now, not sure, that we can afford to build workers in Moscow.
"The only reason to build a knight army is to get the right to build the heroic epic. We can already build the heroic epic so why bother. A defensive army of pikes will cover our slow units and dissuade the AI from attacking. Offensive fast armies are slow to heal. It is quicker to heal the knights individually. "
I vote for Knights army. But I agree with your reasons.

Ok, playing 3 turns now.

@K-A "1) I'll start a marketplace in Madras then"
Disagree. This is our MU factory at north. With corruption marketplase is useless.
@Tomoyo
"As far as I know, if it is a complete per-turn deal without solid resources, we would not get a rep hit. However, if we declare war before 20 turns, we break our rep anyway." The bug is that if you will renegotiate Peace treaty after 20 turns left, or reject their "Peace initiative" after 20 turns your reputation will be hit, belive me. This is known bug. I do not want to experiment. we get 40 turn Peace instead of 20.

Every that I could say has been said. Waiting for the turns to be completed.

Pre-turn:

Set Madras to marketplace, Bengal to granary. Make Lahore to work the forest instead of coast. Start irrigating the cow in Bengal and work a forest, so the granary drops from 18 to 11 turns. Wake the native worker in Moscow and direct him towards Bengal.

Sell Theology to Aztecs for WM + 18g. Sell PP to Iroquis for WM + 39g.

Trade WM for 4g total.

Sign Peace Treaty with America for WM + San Francisco + 31g. Sign RoP in separate deal with America.

Build Army with "Ivan the Terrible".


IBT: India asks to move our troops - from where? - I agree and trade WM for 3g.

Damn!!! Atlanta flipped to Spain :mad:

660AD (1)
Moscow: knight >> knight.

Trade WM for 22g total.


670AD (2)
Join the worker in Bengal. Trade WM for 4g.
Attack the Jap horse, our knight wins and promotes to Elite, but has 2hp left.


680AD (3)
Reload galleys with workers to help in Bengal. Trade WM for 4g.

We have 146g in the bank: we need 164g(currently) to hurry the courthouse in Lahore and start the FP. Should we lower our research for a turn to hurry the courthouse?
Soorrry, but because my party begins, I accidentally pushed "enter", but I immediately quit from the game :blush: - See you later; I'm partying now! If I missed any post while I was playing, I'll read it later.

Looked at save. You miss my instruction about Knight/3 turn. Lose 10 shcields.
When we start war we'll be in interesting situation.: Madras will produce Horsmans! (NO Iron!). We should use this to upgrade later to knights. Moscow, however will not build knights. We may build Colony again....
Get/rush knights at Madras!. Move axemans to Deli...

Turnlog: sorry for delay.
0 550AD
Rush Harbor at Lahore. Trade WM around. Send Spear and workers to Madras. Send Troops toward Atlanta.
IBT Am Axeman kill our elite sword
1 560 AD Troops toward Atlanta. Kill axeman.
IBT . Spain offer Peace. OK. Take Valencia and 17 gold. FP invitation
2 570 AD Attack Atlanta. Won, but did not capture. Demand Hovd and get from Mongols.
IBT Spain buil Leo. Barb attack Sword.
3 580 AD
Attack and take Atlanta. (Unload Knights in Lahore.) Send fresh troops to NY. Cancel Alliance with Kelts vs English. Make peace with English, get 20g. Vikings want 80. Wait.
IBT Viking unload Axeman between Lahore and Madras. Indians will steal Horses. Americans knight Fortify?? Near NY.
4. 590 AD
Kill Knight. Move Axemens closer to NY. Kill Vikings Axemans. They agree for peace for 20. Or WM +1 g. OK. Next Vikings Galley under way. Sci 80%.
IBT barb appear near Moscow. Spain sp/Settler moves…
5. 600 AD. Atack NY. Won 2 times. Move Knight to NY.
IBT Americans fortify Knight in NY. Redlined our knight at hills.
6. 610 AD
Trade Education from English For Alliance vs Kelts, 7gpt 31 g. They also agree for Alliance vs Japan. Trade Education to France for Pease and Pr.Pr, 31 gold. They have no gpt.
IBT Am Knight attack Atlanta and die.

7. 620 AD Move more troops to NY. (4 Axemans Catapult and Pickman). Jap Galley near deLuna. Regrupe Pickmens Knight and Axeman. (2 Samurais may mess - AE)
Borrow 18 g for 1 gpt from English and rush C/h->University in Moscow.
IBT. Jap Galley sails around.
8. 630 Kill 2 spears in NY. Pull Knights to NY.
IBT Jap Galley sails around.
9. 640 Siege NY Elite Axe dies, vet prom to elite. Knights rerite. 2/5 axe won. 2/4 spear left.
IBT Japanese unload horse “near Colony” Ha-ha. Kioto Build Sc Chapel.
Trade Egiptians GP for Education+WM+35g (lump)
10. 650 AD 4/5 elite won 4/4 spear, Capture NY. Got “Ivan the terrible”. 14 workers.
In fact NY was defended by 6 spears, 1 Pickman, and 2 knights. No way to fight futher IMHO.

Looked at save. You miss my instruction about Knight/3 turn. Lose 10 shcields.

Yes, I missed it this time, sorry Ivan: I was thinking about your suggestion's as well as AdrianE's to rush the courthouse in Lahore(we're very short of money and this is an opportunity).
We can lower our research for 1 turn to save money and to rush the courthouse next turn so we begin the FP ASAP - we need to start it now so by our Golden Age(with cossacks) we'd have built it and use the GL for more infrastructure/units(the nearby cities will benefit from this also).

We can always rush a knight in Madras now(132g), if we want to, or rush it in Moscow for 120g: there're also 2 barb camps we could go after for more gold, but we need a fast unit(knight) to destroy them soon.
IMHO, it'd be good if we could keep 2 knights on our island for barbs or to face a unit if Japan/Arabs/Kelts unload, although we're preparing for war now.

When we start war we'll be in interesting situation.: Madras will produce Horsmans! (NO Iron!). We should use this to upgrade later to knights.

Why will Madras produce only horsemen? It has Iron from Lahore's/DeLuna's harbors.

Moscow, however will not build knights. We may build Colony again....

Are you suggesting to pillage the Iron colony and build horsemen?

Get/rush knights at Madras!. Move axemans to Deli...

I guess you're in favor of spenting our money for rushing a knight in Madras then, rather than rushing the courthouse in Lahore.
I'll move inside, as soon as our Peace Treaty ends - I hope that we'll not have many war elephants entering our borders so we aren't forced to defend but go to offensive.

btw: I didn't like at all that Atlanta flipped - why these things happen in my turns?

1) We can lower our research for 1 turn to save money and to rush the courthouse next turn so we begin the FP ASAP - we need to start it now so by our Golden Age(with cossacks) we'd have built it and use the GL for more infrastructure/units(the nearby cities will benefit from this also).

2)We can always rush a knight in Madras now(132g), if we want to, or rush it in Moscow for 120g: there're also 2 barb camps we could go after for more gold, but we need a fast unit(knight) to destroy them soon.
IMHO, it'd be good if we could keep 2 knights on our island for barbs or to face a unit if Japan/Arabs/Kelts unload, although we're preparing for war now.

3)Why will Madras produce only horsemen? It has Iron from Lahore's/DeLuna's harbors.

4)Are you suggesting to pillage the Iron colony and build horsemen?

5) I guess you're in favor of spenting our money for rushing a knight in Madras then, rather than rushing the courthouse in Lahore.
6)btw: I didn't like at all that Atlanta flipped - why these things happen in my turns?
1) Better get MT ASAP. Ther early GA start, the better.
2) We may build axeman in Madras and ruch C/H in Lahore. [If Lahore flip...]
3) when your start war with India our sea route will be broken Indians island City culture border expanded. That's why we will not have horses in Moscow and Iron in Madras. So, better to start war when next Knight in Moscow will be. (2 turns from now.)
You again will build knight in 4... My Knight/3 trick will not work at war...
4) Oh NO!!
Also regroupe to defend Bangalore or Rush pickman there.
5) Yes, but FP also important. Up to you.
6) It within statistical error. We had 2 flips at 50 turns with 1.5% total probability /turn.

Here is plan to attack Dheli. I recomend to build Axeman in Madras.
Then move axemens and 1 pickmen Through B to A. Army will go to A first and will attack from Bangalore together with axemens. Send worker from Moscow to substitute horse colony near Penjub. Madras may build worker to joint Lahore.
Pull Pickman and 1 NY axe to Madras.
Good luck, Ivan

What is the advantage of keeping our troops outside our cities? Are we that afraid of flips? What garrisons are required to eliminate flips? New York has 2 resistors and they won't be pacified without troops.

At Bengal work the river/forest not the fresh water. That will complete the granary in 6 turns but grow in 7. It will make future growth faster.

You could rush a knight at Madras for 132 gold. That would be most of our gold though.

After the aquaduct is finished at cuidad de Luna we will have to watch happiness carefully. Adding the India Ivory to our economy will help with happiness.

I have some wierd feeling I'm up, but I'm not sure.

The garrison required to prevent a flip is propbably really high. At least, even if it isn't really high, we wouldn't be able to spaare the troops.

I have some wierd feeling I'm up, but I'm not sure.

The garrison required to prevent a flip is propbably really high. At least, even if it isn't really high, we wouldn't be able to spaare the troops.
I think K-A will play more turns. He have 1 day to go.
We may hold non-elite, non Army non catapult troops in Cities. Espesially at war.

690AD (4)
Madras built Axeman. Trade WM for 8g. A barb appears outside Moscow. Raise science to 80%, Chemistry at 7(instead of 9), -14gpt, 151g. Resistance in NY ends(had moved troops inside).

IBT
Zululand destroyed the Mongols .

700AD (5)
Moscow: knight >> knight, knight kills the barb next to our worker. Trade WM for 11g.
Declare war at India, move units.

710AD (6)
Bangalore riots. Zaragoza: library >> harbor. Madras/Bangalore need a taxman. Trade WM for 7g.
Elite knight captures Chittagong.
Army attacks Delhi, kills a pikeman and loses 2hp(10/12hp).
Trade again WM for 14g.

IBT
1 War Elephant attacks Elite* Axeman Ivan, but Ivan is a tough guy and retreats the elephant, although he lost 2 hp(3/5hp).

720AD (7)
Elite knight in our island kills a barb horse outside Moscow, gets closer to barb camp.
Army kills another pikeman in Delhi, loses 2hp and drops at 8/12hp.
We lose 1 Axeman, without doing any damage to pikeman.
1 Axeman kills another pikeman in Delhi, loses 1hp.
We lose 1 more Axeman attacking Delhi, although the pikeman was fighting with 1 hp after losing the other - BAD RNG.

IBT
1 hp REGULAR war elephant attacks and kills our spearman at Bangalore and captures it, stealing 5g.

730AD (8)
Attack and aoutoraze Punjab, horse colony next turn. Knight Army recaptures Bangalore, promotes 1 knight inside it's ranks, drops 2 more hp, at 6/13hp.

The turns were a nightmare: I'll finish here my turns, so the Team can discuss, and plays further with next player.

There's an Indian galley outside Chittagong, but I think that it carries a settler.
Spain settled Pamplona north of Moscow.

I feel very bad for losing our units this way, especially since we have no reinforcements. The Army did his best, but he needs help. 1 pike and 3/4Axeman are fortified outside Delhi and 2 more Axemans are close.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Ivan_SG005_AD0730_01.SAV

"1 War Elephant attacks Elite* Axeman Ivan, but Ivan is a tough guy and retreats the elephant, although he lost 2 hp(3/5hp). " I thought my instruction and picture was clear. Axemens should go with Pickmen supervision and All axemens and Army have to attack at the same turn.(from point A).
Our war will be long, and AFAIK loosing City is very bad for WW.
If RNG was bad, try to attack Dehli this pre-turn. But up to you, Tomoyo.
Bring Lahore Pickman to Madras. Trade WM!!!