SGOTM5 - Russia. Game Thread Team tao.

Hi everyone, and welcome to the SGOTM5 Game thread.

Note: EVERYONE will have to install the correct resource graphics whether or not they have played SGOTM4.


Here is the start position.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5-starta.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5-startb.jpg

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Russia
World size - Large, 25% land give or take.
Difficulty Regent - but plays harder.
The map is handbuilt, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

Here are a couple of links you might find useful.

The original GOTM23 Announcement. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/gotm23_arabs.shtml)
The Constitution (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1733966&postcount=61)
The GOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=71788)
SGOTM5 Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=105346)

This Months' sponsored variant is OBCC - One Built City Conquest the rules for which are as follows.

1. You may never build a settler.
2. You must win by conquest victory condition.

Checking in.

I remember another OBC sucession game awhile back that ended in a 370 AD domination victory here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=51508&page=1&pp=20). Granted, they had a much better starting position than us and an ancient UU, but there might be some useful tactics we can pick up. Particularly, given that we won't have much to build besides units and we are on a large map, it might make sense to build the pyramids while we wait for other civs to settle nearby. The extra graneries would help to get captured cities quickly up to productive size and also improve score.

Checking in.

Just saw this post by MB in the maintenance thread:

I have also caught an error which has been around for nearly two weeks. The land form is 25% Land, and not 75%.
Just a minor oversight. :)

Might actually be a good thing. With 15 rivals, land will be at a premium. No civs will get too large to handle early and the ai should develop a road network for us fairly quickly.

Also he has made a number of changes to the ruleset. Be sure to read the maintenance thread for the particulars.

3rd team member checking in, will have to re-read the maintenance thread when I've had some sleep.

Team tao Maintenance Post

last change Dec 1, 08:35 GMT

This post will collect important tidbits appearing in various posts, e.g. in the sgotm maintenance thread, as well as findings of team members. Please pm me, if you want something added.

Roster and playing sequence:
tao
Demiurge
Furiey
Zwingli
(TedJackson removed after 5 weeks of inactivity)


1. Our intial tech is alphabet instead of expansionist standard pottery.

2. Please everybody: with only 1 city, it must be used at optimum. Do not let it riot but giv lux tax (specialist, clown only if special justification). Micromanage before and after each growth and before each unit completion.

3. See posts #51, #53 on how to cure the crash when starting diplomacy with some civs.

I think without long discussion, there is a consensus to go for the OCC variant.

I load the save, take a screenshot and blow it up in Photoshop. I can't find any clue for bonus etc.

I hit F10 and see our competition:
Egypt, Aztecs, America, Arabs, France, Iroquois, Japan, Keltoi, England, Vikings, Zululand, China, Mongols, India, Spain

That are a lot of civs for a 25% land map, even a huge one. On regent, this should be to our advantage, because none of them can really grow big fast.

0: 4000: There are 3 mountains in sight, which we should climb for exploring. The question is whether to also use settler and worker, or only the scout. I decide to use the worker, but not the settler, because he only has a 33% chance of going to the "best" position.
Scout goes SE and sees wheat, worker W sees nothing; settler rests.

1: 3950: scout goes on wheat and sees coast with fish; nice
worker goes on mountain and sees cattle on river; even nicer

2: 3900: scout S sees game, S sees furs.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/tao_3900ad.jpg

I think we found our starting position: on the coast, wheat, river, forest with game, furs close, 2 bonus grassland, hill for shields, fish.
The worker will not see anything new moving down from the mountain. Thus both he and the settler move towards our target position. The scout will look on, in case there is a much much better place.

3: 3850: walking

4: 3800: scout sees goody hut: I have no idea on restrictions in hut popping before settling; better delay it.

5: 3750: walking

6: 3700: reach settling position

7: 3650: Moscow founded starting worker; work wheat, because growth is power and we did not yet meet any civ, which is suspicious.
Set max research to pottery: growth is power (and we need it in case we want to go for map making.
Vandals from the goody hut give us map; disappointing. And we learn that near the cow, there is also furs and game. ;)

8: 3600: worker starts irrigating wheat, scout explores NNW

9: 3500: zzz

10: 3500: scout sees goody hut across the water, but hasn't yet learned to swim

11: 3450: zzz

12: 3400: irrigation done, start road

13: 3350: on his way to the goody huts, scout sees another one. :)
mm

14: 3300: Alemanni tribe tells us ceremonial burial :)

15: 3250: Moscow b warrior s temple as granary pre-build; road done, move to bg

16: 3200: road bg

17: 3150: cultural borders expand, work game; research to 60%

18: 3100: learn pottery; start research on wheel (to allow chariots); switch Moscow to granary

19: 3050: start mining

20: 3000: scout will reach goody hut next turn; let's hope for another (expensive) tech; this was another reason to not research e.g. iron working or writing first.

I decided on the granary, since we may need a number of workers to colonize luxuries (only 1 seen so far) and resources. And we want grow our 1 city at max. Suspiciously, we made no contact and maybe we are alone on a central small continent with all the other civs on islands around us. Since this is regent, the tech pace will not be too fast and maybe we get some more friendly tribes telling us techs.

Once we have the granary and can time it convenient with pop growth, we may want to build another worker.

We might want to build temple (allow pop growth), barracks (vet units), before building units.

Firaxis score 28

Demiurge (next)
Furiey
Zwingli
TedJackson
tao (just played; away Nov 27 - Dec 1)

Got it. Will play tomorrow evening U.S. EST.

Given the fact that we are on a standard map with 15 civs and 25% landmass, I would suspect that we are indeed on an archipelago map. We should know for certain by the end of our first rotation.

If that is the case shouldn't we be beelining for mapmaking and the great lighthouse? That and most probably long ship chains will be critical for an early conquest. We are on the coast which is a good thing since we are unlikely to get a second city for producing galleys.

Edit/add: As far as builds, I think the barracks and a couple of archers would be in order before building a temple. The barb setting is unknown and dispelling the camps could be critical to maintaining a fast research rate. If we are on an island by ourselves, we may have a good number of barbs to deal with. Pre-building the GL might be in order as well.

I sent a pm to coletite and he informed me, that he never signed up for this game; no time. Maybe mad-bax assigns somebody else.

I have added Ted Jackson to your Roster.

Hi everyone,

just checking in.

Just as well I'm last on the roster as I'll have to do the modpack install for Vanilla :)


Ted

Welcome to the team Ted!

Regards the map; archipelago, or archipelago type but with stringy land bridges between the islands. Still surprised we haven't met anyone given the number of Civs. It's going to take a while to explore all the wiggles around the coast and check for land bridges, perhaps another scout to go N ish at some point, or maybe it would be quicker to check by sea.

Hi Ted, good to have you on board.

3000 bc (pre-turn)
Hit return

2950 bc (turn 1)
Scout pops hut, gets mysticism

2900 bc (turn 2)
Scout begins moving off peninsula

2850 bc (turn 3)
Moscow grows to pop 4
Lux up to 10%, sci down to 90%. Still get wheel in 7 turns
MM Moscow, growth in 5, granary in 6

2800 bc (turn 4)
Scout continues moving off peninsula

2750 bc (turn 5)
Worker completes mine, moves to next BG
Moscow gets growth in 3, granary in 3
MM to get granary in 3, growth in 4

2710 bc (turn 6)
Worker roads BG first to increase commerce, currently at +0 gpt

2670 bc (turn 7)
Scout continues moving off peninsula

2630 bc (turn 8)
Moscow builds granary < barracks
Now at -1 gpt

2590 bc (turn 9)
Moscow grows to pop 5, MM for growth
Lux up to 20%, wheel in 1, sci down to 70%, +0 gpt
Worker completes road, mines BG
Scout moves off peninsula, spies another hut N

2550 bc (turn 10)
Learn wheel < warrior code temporarily. Cheap tech so we don't get it from hut.
Pop hut, get eqWorker, move toward Moscow
Horses within city radius
Switch research to writing at 80%, due in 22 at -1 gpt
MM Moscow for shields, growth in 2 at +3 fpt

Our world at 2550 bc:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/2550bc1.jpg


Post-turn:
We have horses in the city radius, :bounce: once they're hooked up. I started researching writing although that could be changed if the next player wants to gamble on getting it from a hut. I started a barracks instead of a temple thinking that we would be producing a worker soon. Now that I got one from a hut, it could be switched to a temple to keep us from using the lux slider as much. Controlling happiness is cutting into our research rate currently.

Edit: Playing order
Furiey (up next)
Zwingli
TedJackson
tao
Demiurge (just played)

Welcome to the team Ted. :)

I'm somewhat at a loss as to any suggestions for this map. We might want galleys, but all of the coastal squares will make them slow and it is possible that we are next to an inland sea. Maybe the Collossus will be a good goal if we are stuck with one city for an extended period of time. There are plenty of candidates for land bridges visible, so a second scout could be a wize investment.

The map seems very symmetrical, and I woudn't be surprised if we are in the middle of a pangaea connected by multiple spokes to an outer landmass.

Note: I'll be without civ access from the 25th to the 28th inclusive.

Just some thoughts in no specific order:
I think we are on an isolated continent. Otherwise some other scout would have shown up.
We don't need barracks now, since barbs will come and promote our regular units.
A temple is a good idea to both increase happiness and grow culture; we may not need to waste a worker on colonizing the furs.
IMHO Great Lighthouse is a necessity on this archipelago map.
Since we will be isolated for a long time, the AIs will be ahead in techs. Thus Great Library would be good also.
Colossus would help to increase our commerce, e.g. research and money for upgrading units.
We might want to research warrior code before map making to have Heroic Epic as pre-build for Great Lighthouse. Or do we use Oracle hoping nobody will finish it?
We need a 2nd unit as military police soon.
I would not build a 2nd scout, because it is wasted shields and upkeep (since we are alone). Wait till we can build chariot.
Chariots will also be able to disperse barb huts giving 25g each for our research spending.
Do we want a 3rd worker to help improve faster and join later, once our pop growth is very slow (above pop 7)?
writing is the best choice now. I was thinking to start it even before wheel, but wanted to locate horses in case they would be far away. Next either wc (see above) or map making. Then dependig on how long it takes to research and what pre-build we have either literature or hbr squeezed in.
building I would temple, warrior, chariot, Colossus? or sqeeze in another worker?
micro managing is key to success
growth is power


PS: Good turns, Demiurge. :thumbsup:

OK guys, I'm all set up and raring to go :)

I've had a look at our position and have a few general comments.

1. It's too early to decide whether or not we're isolated. There are indications that we're not but they are not visible in-game ;)

2. I'm not convinced that there are any roaming barbs as we've uncovered a fair sized territory without encountering any.

3. As we're playing OCCC I don't think the idea of building any Great Wonder is practical until we have at least one other city for unit production.

4. We need at least one more Scout ASAP. Looking at the map there are unexplored areas to the North, Northeast, East and South.

We can benefit in two ways by exploring these areas sooner rather than later: By uncovering and popping Goody Huts or by making contact with our neighbours (opening trade opportunities).

5. Map Making is my tech of choice as it would allow us to build a harbour, increasing the Food potential of Moscow's coastal tiles.


Ted

Just some general reactions to what's ben discussed.

I'm not sure what indications you're talking about Ted, but I'm with tao on this one. I think we are isolated and on an archipelago or continents map. I find it impossible to believe that we haven't seen any other civ with only 25% landmass if we're on a pangea.

As to wonders, I think the lighthouse is a must build, both for contacts and for accelerating our conquest. I think all our resources need to be focused toward getting galleys out and making those contacts so we can plan our invasions.

I'm not sure what indications you're talking about Ted, but I'm with tao on this one. I think we are isolated and on an archipelago or continents map. I find it impossible to believe that we haven't seen any other civ with only 25% landmass if we're on a pangea. Looking at the graph on the submissions page it's possible to surmise that everybody apart from ourselves and team Tone settled on the start position. This gave them an initially steeper growth curve which fell off as the tundra started to hurt their progress while our curve started slow and has increased over time. Three of those "settle on start" teams exhibit an increase in growth around 2150BC to 1750BC which I attribute to contacts.

I could of course be wrong but thought I'd better explain my reasoning as my ealier choice of wording was less than ideal :)

As to wonders, I think the lighthouse is a must build, both for contacts and for accelerating our conquest. I think all our resources need to be focused toward getting galleys out and making those contacts so we can plan our invasions.The problem with any Wonder build is that while we only have one city we cannot build anything else until the Wonder is finished. This is a very high risk strategy in my view and there is too much unexplored territory to justify the assumption that we are isolated.



Ted

On barbs:
I looked thru several of my gotm logs and it is not uncommon to not encounter them until about 2400bc.

On TedJackson's interpretation of the submission graph:
I can't believe many teams to be so stupid and found on the starting position. IMHO we have lower initial growth because of the granary.

On being isolated:
I still believe we are.

On Wonder building:
We can't afford to build many units, because we need our money for research (or for saving to buy techs). Thus useful Wonders are very good.

On exploring:
IMHO we should wait until we can build chariots and not waste time on a scout.

But of course it is on Furiey to decide and play. ;)

OK, got it - I'll play in a while once I've done all those things that need doing when you get back from work.

Personally I have a feeling that we are connected (remember mad-bax's comment that the map is hand built, and therefore may not have a standard configuration), but I think there are things we will need in the next 10 turns before another scout. I might try and follow one of the "spokes" to see if they do connect to more land.

2550 BC (Turn 0): change build to Temple due in 6, as I said, not a lot of time for much else this 10 turns; Leave research on Writing at 80%; press button.

2510 BC (Turn 1): Scout N; eqWorker to Moscow.

2470 BC (Turn 2): Scout N; eqWorker to Moscow; Moscow has grown; lux up to 30% - Writing in 22 again.

2430 BC (Turn 3): Scout N; eqWorker to Moscow.

2390 BC (Turn 4): Scout N; eqWorker to Moscow – spots another goodie hut on mountain to N of Moscow; mm Moscow for growth with Temple still in 1

2350 BC (Turn 5): Moscow builds Temple; drop lux to 20%, now 9gold +0gpt; mm Moscow for Warrior in 1; Moscow Worker completes mine – goes for furs; Scout back for goodie hut, the “spoke” has petered out; eqWorker to Moscow.

2310 BC (Turn 6): Moscow: Warrior -> Worker in 1 and grows in 1; drop lux to 10%; fortify Warrior in Moscow; Scout towards hut; eqworker to Moscow.

2270 BC (Turn 7): Moscow: Worker -> Barracks (back to –1gpt again); new Worker joins Moscow Worker; eqWorker finally reaches Moscow region (it’s a long way through the tundra).

2230 BC (Turn 8): Workers road, Scout to hut.

2190 BC (Turn 9): Scout to hut; mm Moscow to avoid wasting shields

IBT: Something happens for the first time – a Magyar Warrior appears from the goodie hut tile.

2150 BC (Turn 10): Scout approaches goodie hut – clear map shows there’s a landbridge to another tile where the barb must have come from

Treasury: 6 gold - 1 gpt, Writing in 13 (70%), Lux 10%

Post-turn: I leave the 2 Workers SW of Moscow unmoved, they could either continue on to connect the Furs, mine and road the grassland tile by Moscow, or join the 3rd worker towards the Horses making a nice 3 Worker team. We will need to drop our tech rate as we’re running out of gold. Moscow is set to grow in 1, Barracks in 1, but it may be desirable to slow growth to allow another worker to be produced as it grows, particularly as one of our MP Warriors will need to go for the barb (they are just fortified, so are free to move this turn, perhaps one to the Worker). Still no contacts (apart from the barb)


Zwingli (up next)
TedJackson
tao
Demiurge
Furiey (just played)

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/tao_SG005_BC2150_01.SAV)

Everything looks good Furiey, but I would MM one citizen from the tundra forest to the fresh water and the non-BG grass to the fish for extra commerce. We will still get the barracks in one with the extra shields from growth.

doh! - fish and freshwater :blush: , can't believe I missed those - I should have been using one of them instead of the unimproved grassland for the extra commerce all along!

It looks like I can squeeze this one in. Got it.

2150 BC (0)
MM Moscow for more gold

2110 BC (1)
Warrior moves out of Moscow to protect worker from barbs. Lux raised to compensate.
IBT- Defeat barb in defense promoting to vet.

2070 BC (2)
We get a conscript warrior from the hut and reveal the location of the barb camp. Unit/building costs are killing our research rate (down to 40%), so I take the chance to send the conscript to attack the camp.

2030 BC (3)
Attack barb camp with conscript and lose without doing damage.
Our promoted vet warrior continues to explore east, while our second vet warrior (just built) goes north to disperse the camp.

1990 BC (4)
Continued exploration and movement. A couple workers move to the furs, and since our borders will soon expand I decide to road rather than colonize.

1950 BC (5)
Movement and exploration.

1910 BC (6)
Eastern warrior pops Warrior Code from a hut. Now that we have the backup of Heroic Epic, I start building Colossus.

1870 BC (7)
Movement toward the northern barb camp, and the end of the peninsula in the south-east.

1830 BC (8)
We disperse a barb camp getting a much needed 25g. Science is raised to take advantage of the gold.

1790 BC (9)
Movement reveals 3 barbs in the west. IIRC there can be only 1 camp per civ on the island, so these barbs were generated quickly or they have been wandering for awhile.

1750 BC (10)
Merge 1 worker into Moscow boosting size from 7 to 8 (we still have 4).

Post-Turn
I forgot to record the exact dates of Moscow's production, but the build sequence was barracks, worker, warrior, worker, warrior, Colossus.
Exploration has revealed more dead ends, so its rather safe to say we are alone on the island. There is another landmass visible to the South, but there is no way to know if it is inhabited yet.

Are the eastern and southern warrior still on their way out or coming back to defend Moscow and tile improvements (furs!) against the approaching barbs?

IMHO we should soon (after having mined the horses) merge 2 more workers into Moscow. And build 2(?) chariots before starting Great Lighthouse; probably disband the scout towards one of them.

I will leave later today and return on Tuesday evening GMT. If TedJackson plays soon, feel free to skip me. As long as you get the Great Lighthouse. ;)

Got it

Play later today.


Ted

SGOTM5_Tao 1750BC

Pre-flight checks... OK :thumbsup:

No changes, just press button

IBT
Horses online
Spot more barbs heading for Moscow (3 total)
Border expansion brings Furs online :)

1 - 1725BC
Reduce Lux to 10%
Warrior heads for unexplored NE
Warrior heads for Moscow
Worker road (2S Moscow)
Scout heads S

IBT
Barb arrives NW Moscow

2 - 1700BC
Vet Warrior kills barb
Lux 20% (loss of MP)
Warriors & Scout continue as before

IBT
Barb arrives 2SW Moscow

3 - 1675BC
Warrior kills barb
other units continue
Research 40% (Writing still due in 2 turns)

IBT
NTR

4 - 1650BC
No change

IBT
Discover Writing, start Map Making

5 - 1625BC
Scout scouts for Barbs
Warriors continue towards their destinations

IBT
Warrior fends off barb

6 - 1600BC
Workers carry on building roads

IBT

7 - 1575BC
Warrior arrives Moscow
Lux 10%
Can't shave any time off research until Moscow's pop increases

IBT
NTR

8 - 1550BC
Warriors scout for barbs

IBT
NTR

9 - 1525BC
Warriors scout for barbs

IBT
Warrior fends off barb Warrior

10 - 1500BC
Warriors Scout
Workers build roads

Notes
Not much happening, saw a few barbs and confiirmed that we are isolated :(
Firaxis score: 72
Jason score: 47

Moscow
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SG05-Tao-1500BC.jpg


Ted

Just ran across this post in the maintenance thread:
OK guys. This is important so you need to pay attention. I have completely messed up the PTW game. The bug affects the game from turn 1 and progressively disadvantages the AI throughout the game. The game saves can be fixed, but the AI will never recover, and the game will be very easy for you all, and certainly not comparable to the 1.29f game. I am gutted because it was a blunder that should never have got past me, and also because I like the map. I won't divulge what the actual bug is now in case we decide to continue to play the game.

The way I see it we have 3 options.

1. Fix the saves at 1000BC and play on with seperate awards for PTW and 1.29f.
2. Restart the game with you trying to rconstruct your game from your turnlogs.
3. Scrap the game and use an entirely new map.

It's a pity that this came up over a weekend as the forum traffic is so low.

If I were to be completely selfish, I would say we fix the saves at 1000BC and I give the AI some "help" and you continue to play. I will proceed on this basis.

Now one bug has surfaced I half expect the floodgates to open. I sincerely hope not however.

I will begin to fix the saves and make them available again by the end of the weekend hopefully. Those teams that have not played to 1000BC should do so.

I can only aplogise for this mistake, I feel awful about it. Just too many changes in one go. :(

I had intended to go ahead and skip tao since he won't be returning until Tuesday, but in the light of this, I'll probably wait until it's resolved. Given that its the weekend I wouldn't expect a resolution until Monday at the earliest.

Just looked at the save and I have a few thoughts:

1. By MM Moscow for shields, we still get growth in 1 and reduce the colossus build by one.

2. Counting the food, at size 12 with no other improvements, we can get 23 fpt, so the game will need chopped to sustain us at pop 12. The hill needs mined as well. I would merge three of the workers into Moscow to get it up to max once these tasks are complete. This needs done before we road any tiles that Moscow can't work.

3. After the colossus we need a few (3 or 4) chariots so we can actively seek out camps to help sustain a negative gpt research rate. And of course we should probably start a lighthouse prebuild ASAP. The heroic epic will take 12 turns to complete at pop 12 (18 spt) so that is our pre-build potential.

4. Once the colossus completes hopefully we can crank up research again. I don't like the fact that we're researching at minimum. We will most likely be several techs behind when we meet the ai if they have contacts, and we need every tech we can get (maybe lit for the great library next) for trading.

Edit: That granary is starting to kick in! Our firaxis score-line really headed north in the last turn set. :goodjob:

Well the answer was much faster than expected so I may pick it up later today:

OK. Yesterday and today I have been working on a way to get the games to near parity. I failed of course, but Alanh and I have mended the saves. Alan fixed the bug and I made a small change that I hope will balance the PTW and 1.29f versions of the game to some degree. I played a few tens of turns from one of your 1.29f saves and played to the same point from a fixed PTW save and compared the techs, units and improvements for the AI in each game. I was surprised at how similar they were in fact. This is not to say the games across software versions will be comparable, but hopefully the PTW game will now play the way it was designed.

Once again I can only apologise for my mistake, and hope that you can continue and enjoy the game.

1500 bc (pre-turn)
MM Moscow for max shields
Hit return

1475 bc (turn 1)
Warriors hunt for barb camps
Two workers to game forest for chop. Colossus in 4, chop due in six. Not the best use for the shields, but it will go to first chariot.
One worker to hill to mine.
Scout begins journey home to disband to reduce unti costs by 1 gpt to 4 gpt.
Moscow grows to pop nine. MM for growth, commerce, still get colossus in 4
Raise lux to 20% due to growth, now at +5 gpt, sci at minimum

1450 bc (turn 2)
Vet warrior N spies camp
Worker on hill starts mine

IBT: Barb appears to S near worker on hill

1425 bc (turn 3)
Disband scout
Worker completed roading tundra forest, moves to join worker on mining hill
Move vet warrior on MP duty in Moscow to hill. With lux at 20% he is no longer needed there anyway.
Warrior N moves next to barb camp

1400 bc (turn 4)
Vet warrior dispels barb camp N
Warrior W begins trip home just in case more barbs show up
Now at 68 gold and +6 gpt. Raise sci to 60% at -3 gpt to reduce time needed to research map making to 25.

IBT: Barb near workers on hill attacks vet warrior promoting him to elite. Another barb shows up to the west.

1375 bc (turn 5)
Moscow builds colossus < chariot
Warriors N and S fortify to heal 1 hp each
Warrior W now moves in possible direction of hut
Now at -2 gpt, map making in 20 thanks to the colossus

1350 bc (turn 6)
Warrior N explores, W and S look for camps

1325 bc (turn 7)
Moscow builds chariot < next
Chariot kills barb near Moscow

1300 bc (turn 8)
Chariot fortifies in Moscow for MP, barb protection
Warriors seek out huts

1275 bc (turn 9)
Moscow builds chariot < next
Two workers complete mining hill, move to Moscow to be joined next turn
Chariot moves out to seek camps
Growth due in Moscow in 1, MM for shields

1250 bc (turn 10)
Moscow grows, join two workers to take it up to pop 12 with max production at +17 spt (one corrupt) with zero growth.
Map making due in 12 turns, set heroic epic (12 turns) set as pre-build for lighthouse
Workers complete mining game, move into Moscow on their way to expanding our road network beyond the city radius
Warrior N kills barb
Warrior W finds camp
Warrior S seeks camp

Our world at 1250 bc:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/1250bc.jpg



Post-turn
There are three barb camps that I know of by barb movement. I located one and noted on my pic my guess as to the location of the other two. I was only able to squeeze in 2 chariots. I felt getting the lighthouse pre-build started — so that we can complete it and get our first galley out — was more important.

Playing order
Furiey (up next)
Zwingli
TedJackson
tao (skipped)
Demiurge (just played

Got it.

Well we are alone, I was hoping that one of those spokes would lead somewhere else, but no. Unless someone lands I don't see that there's much to do these next 10 turns; extend our road network and keep barb hunting.

No, not much else to do for the next 25 turns. The lighthouse will come in 23 turns, then the first galley. Judging by the fact that we haven't seen any barb galleys, no one else knows map making yet. Our science advisor tells us that we are only moderately advanced. So if we're lucky we should make our first contact inside of 40 turns from now...but it could be much longer. All those coastal tiles are going to slow us down alot.

On the plus side, Moscow now holds the number one slot in the Top Five Cities list. If we can only build one, looks like we're going to make it a good one. I meant to post this with my log earlier. So here's Moscow at 1250 bc:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/1250city.jpg

Edit: Thinking way ahead, maybe the great library would be a good gamble. If we build it after a few galleys, we could shut off research for a while and then be able to afford to build quite a few galleys and chariots in preparation. That of course assumes that we can contact multiple ai's within 60 turns or so. When we could potentially complete the great library.

Saw barb Galleys - on the first turn :(

(playing now)

1250 BC(Turn 0): Look around, press button.

IBT: Galley approaches W barb near camp – get all excited until I realise it’s a barb Galley.

1225 BC(Turn 1): Warriors move towards camps – SE camp location is confirmed; Workers move to somewhere to road; Chariot moves to be able to protect Workers.

1200 BC(Turn 2): Disperse W barb camp for 25 gold; Warrior 3/4; Elite Warrior disperses SE camp for 25 gold; no Camp in N location, Chariot spots it on the southernmost of the 2 central mountains; Workers to unimproved tile by horses.

1175 BC(Turn 3): Fortify W Warrior to heal; N Warrior goes to tip where barb camp was thought to be anyway and spots land across the water – no sign of a Civ there though; Workers road; Elite Warrior N; Chariot can’t attack mountain camp of course, will have to get a Warrior there;

1150 BC(Turn 4): SE Warrior N; W Warrior N; N Warrior fortifies to heal; Chariot back towards Workers.

1125 BC(Turn 5): N Warrior S; W Warrior N; SE Warrior N; Worker go to find another tile to road; Chariot scouts for barb camps;

IBT: barb approaches N Warrior from S

1100 BC(Turn 6): N Warrior defeats barb (no injury, no promotion); W Warrior N; SE Warrior N; Workers road; Chariot scouts for barbs, finds barb Horseman and defeats it for no injury.

1075 BC(Turn 7): W Warrior N; N Warrior S; SE Warrior N; Chariot scouts.

1050 BC(Turn 8): W Warrior N (ish); N Warrior S – spots barb Horse on mountains to the W; SE Warrior W towards roads; Workers complete road and go find somewhere else.

IBT: Barb Horse dies attacking our Warrior (no injury, no promotion)

1025 BC(Turn 9): N Warrior W to find where Horse came from; W Narrior NE; E Warrior onto roads – will go for the barb camp we know about; Workers onto tile to road; Chariot scouts round Workers.

IBT: Barb approaches Moscow from SW

1000 BC(Turn 10): N Warrior W to mountain where barb Horse was first spotted (no camp visible); chariot heads for barb near Moscow; W warrior to Mountain; Workers road; Elite Warrior moves on roads towards camp.

Treasury: 80 gold, - 2 gpt, Map Making due in 2, Heroic Epic prebuild in 2; Science 60%, Lux 20%

Post-turn: quick 10 turns, but there are now barb Galleys and Horsemen about. Heroic Epic is still due the same turn as we complete Mapmaking so would have to be switched via the big picture. With the money from the barb camps we could up research to 70% to get Map Making in 1 though.

Barb camp locations: (edit: pic taken after I played about and upped research)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/tao_SGOTM5_BC1000.jpg

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/tao_SG005_BC1000_01.SAV)

Zwingli (up next)
TedJackson
tao
Demiurge
Furiey (just played)

Zwingli posted that he would be without civ access from the 25th to the 28th inclusive, so he will not be available to play today. If you want (have time) to pick up another 10 today or tomorrow Ted I think that would be O.K. Zwingli can pick up his turns on Monday or later — even if you can't play till Monday — since he's way across the pond and then some from you. We can return to the normal rotation on Tuesday when tao returns.

Ah yes - I'd forgotten about that, hopefully Ted can play and Zwingli pick it up and play when he gets access and before tao returns.

We're running out of things to do with the workers in our territory. I suppose there are several things we could do with them:
build an access road around our island to allow us to hunt the barb camps more quickly
road out to likely landing/settling sites so that when Civs do land we have easy access to their cities and they will be connected to our territory as soon as we capture them
Impove the tiles around the landing sites so that the cities will grow/develop to the size that we can capture them without auto razing quickly. This will also mean that the city will be more useful to us more quickly once we capture it.

I suppose this raises the question of exactly how we treat the first landing - capture it as soon as it won't auto raze; or wait for it to produce another Settler. I'm inclined towards the former, as once the empty land is known about by the AI they'll send Settler after Settler to try and claim it, and the sooner we get that second city on line the better. I'm not sure how much we'll be able to encourage the AI to settle where we want them to settle though.

Well we shouldn't need to set up future city sites since the world should be ours by then. ;)

I do like the way your thinking. Roading to and improving potential sites seems the best way to go. It also gets roads laid down to troop loading areas of our landmass. It may be faster to have troops meet galleys instead of letting them trek through all that coast again and again.

As far as research. At 80%, the max we can afford, we get:
Polytheism = 14 turns
Literature = 11 turns
Code of Laws = 11 turns

I surmise that philosophy, iron working, masonry and horseback riding are known by the ai since they are relatively cheap to research. Mathematics might be known as well.


Since researching techs known by the ai seems useless at this point, unless it gets us a government, I see the following choices:

1. We research polytheism towards monarchy next.

2. We research literature for a great library pre-build and turn research off. When we do meet the ai, we hopefully slingshot into the MA and learn a government, in addition to having a supply of troops and cash for upgrades on hand.

3. We research code of laws toward republic. This would let us to get the most benefit from the colossus in addition to the commercial benefits of republic.

4. A combination of 2 and 3, building the great library and continuing to research at max until republic is known.

Great Library I think we'll have to go for - we only have so much stuff we can build and units we can support with only one city, so might as well build a useful Wonder, I think it would be dangerous to cut back on research completely. But do we go for Republic or Monarchy?

In monarchy we'll get 4 free units with our one city, not much saved. It will reduce our unit support to 0, but we'll have more units eventually so we will be paying for troops either way.

Monarchy: 4 gpt of unit support for a city, plus 13 gpt when the despotism penalty is removed because of the colossus, add the 29 gpt currently and our total commerce potential is 46 gpt.

Republic: 13 gpt in additional commerce, plus 13 gpt for collossus, plus 29 gpt currently. Total 55 gpt.

Based on our current situation, that's the short term outlook. In the long run one would hope we will get much more than 4 gpt of commerce from captured cities. What we would get of unit support from monarchy.

Personally I rarely go for monarchy lately because in most situations the added commerce from republic seems to help more. As long as we maintain oscillating wars, weariness will not be a problem.

Deleted as it was an unproductive post. :)

Just to let you know: I'm back a day early. Nice progress we made. I will look at the saves and discussions to learn what I missed.


My thoughts on the affairs and state of the world:

We are committed to finish map making and the Great Lighthouse. IMHO we will then build 3(?) galley to explore the seas. And we will learn which of the screnarios is true.

Scenario 1:
The other civs are 1 or 2 each on small continents without contact. They are technologically backward and we can kill them "easily". IMHO not an extremely likely scenario.

Scenario 2:
The other civs are on a circular continent (or string of continents) around us. Either they all know each other, or are at most 3 groups. Because of the contact, they are technologically advanced.

In this case, there are 2 threats to deal with:

1. they most likely have started Wonder building, and know literature once one of them finishes The Pyramids; i.e. casacade to Great Library and we have little chance to get it.

2. massive barabrian uprisings, with 3 camps on our continent, we will face 3x8 horsemen. Even if we have started Graet Library, the work on it will most likely be destroyed. And the tile improvements will be pillaged, wrecking our production.

Thus I advocate to finish Great Lighthouse and afterwards strengthen our military: research horseback riding, upgrade chariots, disband scout, build 2-3 spears.

Details most likely will emerge as the game progresses.

I'm back and will get to the save tonight

1. they most likely have started Wonder building, and know literature once one of them finishes The Pyramids; i.e. casacade to Great Library and we have little chance to get it.
I could be wrong but I would suspect otherwise. We haven't seen a pop-up saying that anyone started a wonder build yet and I'm almost positive you see those even for civs you haven't met. The F7 screen shows us that no one else has started one either although I'm not so sure that screen shows civs you haven't met.

This tells us a couple things. One, the great library still might be a viable build. And two, no ai has five cities yet. Things must be crowded out there.

I could be wrong but I would suspect otherwise. We haven't seen a pop-up saying that anyone started a wonder build yet and I'm almost positive you see those even for civs you haven't met. The F7 screen shows us that no one else has started one either although I'm not so sure that screen shows civs you haven't met.Both things only happen, once you have established contact with the respecitive civ.

This tells us a couple things. One, the great library still might be a viable build. And two, no ai has five cities yet. Why? :confused:

As I'm wrong on the first point I may be wrong on the second as well. Again its my been my experience that the ai does not start building wonders until they have 5 cities or more.

So, basing my decision on what are probably both inaccurate assumptions, the great library would not be a viable build. :)

1000 BC (0)
Raise science to get Mapmaking earlier, move a chariot to protect our furs and raise lux tax to compensate.

IBT- Fortified chariot beats warrior in defense. We learn Mapmaking and start Code of Laws at maximum science.

975 BC (1)
Move toward suspected camp locations.

900 BC (4)
Defeat another barb warrior in defense, then take out a camp for +25g. Science continues to run at maximum, depending on loot to maintain the deficit.

850 BC (6)
Destroy southern barb camp for +25g.

825 BC (7)
IBT- Complete Great Lighthouse and start galley due in 2.

800 BC (8)
Take out another camp +25g. Workers are roading West under the watch of a roving chariot.

750 BC (10)
Kill another barb warrior and spot the next camp in the west. No clues on the location of any other camps.

Post-Turn
After Code of Laws we might want to reseach Horseback Riding for horsemen or continue reseach toward Republic. Moscow can build a horseman in 2 turns, which is the same as a chariot (we are likely to get Horseback riding cheap if we meet any other civs though). If we can destroy 3 barb camps every 10 turns, we will be able to maintain maximal research.

Got it


Ted

SGM05_Tao 750BC

Pre-flight checks... OK :thumbsup:

Press button...

1 - 730BC
Galley heads SE
Warriors scout

IBT
Discover CoL, start HBR
Moscow Galley, Galley
Reports of a massive Barbarian uprising near Moscow!

2 - 710BC
Workers head back toward Moscow
Chariot spots Barb horse to the SW of Moscow
Warriors scout
Galleys explore

IBT
Roving Chariot fends off barb Horse
Northern Warrior fends off 4 barb Horse before succumbing to overwhelming odds
8 Barb Horse appear 2S of Roving Chariot

3 - 690BC
Roving Chariot fortifies on hill
Workers start mountain road 1N, 2NW Moscow
Galleys explore
Warriors scout

IBT
NW Warrior killed by barb horse
Roving Chariot kills 2 Barb horse & promotes to elite. Defeats a further 5 barb horse before falling to the last invader :(
Moscow Galley, Chariot
Kyoto (Japan) completes Oracle

4 - 670BC
Galleys explore

IBT
3 Barb Horse arrive 2N Moscow
Barb Horse arrives 1NW, 2W Moscow

5 - 650BC
Chariot kills Barb horse
Galleys explore - spot land to the East

IBT
Barb horse kill workers & guard
Barb Horse pillages road
Moscow Chariot, Chariot

6 - 630BC
Chariot kills Barb horse
Galleys explore

IBT
Barb horsemen approach Moscow

7 - 610BC
Chariot kills Barb horse
Galleys explore

IBT
Warrior (Moscow) fends off Barb horse
Discover HBR, Philosophy
The people love me!

8 - 590BC
Upgrade Chariots to Horsemen
Elite Warrior kills barb horse
Research 50%

IBT
Moscow Horse, Horse

9 - 570BC
Horse kills barb Warrior
2 Horse head SW to find barb camp

IBT
NTR

10 - 550BC
Horsemen spot Barb camp on the coast, SW of Moscow
Horseman rides North searching for Barb camp
Galleys explore


Notes
Still no contact with AI. Hopefully this will change over the next 10-20 turns.

Era change uprisings mean that we're quite a long way behind in tech.

There is still a full complement of barb Horsemen near the Barb camp in the Northwest.

Moscow
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SG05-Tao-550BC-Moscow.jpg

The East
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SG05-Tao-550BC-East.jpg

The Northwest
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SG05-Tao-550BC-NorthWest.jpg

Firaxis score: 101
Jason score: 66


Ted

Got it and will play later today. (IMHO it was not very smart allowing our workers to get killed.)

I started my turns and ran into a bug crashing my Mac, once I contacted 4 civs. AlanH was able to provide a solutuion, already privately requested by Mad-Bax:
In /Art/Flics/ make copies of the following files and rename them as listed:

copy To_01.flc To_B01.flc
copy To_02.flc To_B02.flc
copy Jo_01.flc Jo_B01.flc
copy Jo_02.flc Jo_B02.flc
copy Mn_01.flc Mn_B01.flc
copy Mn_02.flc Mn_B02.flc
copy Mo_01.flc Mo_D01.flc
copy Mo_02.flc Mo_D02.flc
This solved it.

I started a heavy trading session and made all contacts. A tremendeous amount of Wonder building is happening: say good-buy to building The Great Library. Some AIs are already in the Middle Ages.

I will now get some sleep and continue tomorrow, leaving you in suspense. ;)

Not fair! well at least you've told us you made contacts! Does everyone need to copy the files, or just the Mac players?

I've written a batch file that will save you the typing. Just unzip >>THIS<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/diprepair.zip) file into your civilization root directory and double click on it. This is for PC users only. Mac users should copy the files manually or contact Alanh for a simple script.

0: 550bc: checking save; everything fine; I will use the following names: galley1 in the northwest, galley2 in the "far east", galley3 in the east

IBT violet borders appear on the eastern island; Iroquois?

1: 530bc: Moscow b horseman s harbor; horse disbands western Phoenician barb camp getting 25g; northern horse moves on mountain and sees barb camp
galley1 finds Spanish town of Santiago
galley3 finds Iroquois town of Akwesasne on eastern island and French galley
galley2 finds Japanese town of Tokyo in the far east

Iroquois know Aztecs, Arabs, French, Keltoi, English, Vikings, Zulu, Chinese, Mongols; French, Japanese have same contacts
Spanish know Egyptians, Americans
France, Iroquois, Japan know masonry, iron working, philosophy, literature, polytheism
Spain knows masonry, iron working, lacks code of laws, map making
number of cities (in addition to capital)
France: 7
Iroquois: 10
Japan: 5
Spain: 5
contacting Japan crashes the game; contacting AlanH solves the problem

get wm, iron working from from Spain for col, 2g; there is iron west of out furs (45 turns till culture expansion, or colony)

2: 510bc: disband barb camp in the north for 25g; barb comes from the southeast
contact Egpyt getting contact with America for col, 12g
Abe has contact w India, knows masonry, philosophy
let the deals begin:
America gives contact w India, philosophy, wm, 1g for contact w Iroquois
India gives masonry, wm, 30g for philosophy
Spain gives 58g, wm, for philosophy
Egypt gives 55g, tm for philosophy
India gives 54g for contact w Spain
Egypt gives 138g, wm for contact w India, philosophy
We now have all techs, contacts, maps from the northern group of civs. Iroquois know America and thus will contact the other civs soon, hence no reason not to trade contacts.

We evaluate the price Tokugawa puts on the contacts:Aztecs: 69g
Arabs: 106g
Keltoi: 77g
English: 98g
Vikings: 84g
Zulu: 84g
China: 69g
Mongols: 56g
Japan gives contact w Arabs, tm for contact w America, 1g.
Arabs give contact w Keltoi, tm for contact w America, 1g
Keltoi give contact w English, 1g for contact w America
England gives contact w China, tm for contact w America, 2g
China gives contact w Vikings, 1g for contact w America
Vikings give contact w Zulu, 3g for contact w America
Zulu give contact w Aztecs, 2g for contact w America
Aztecs give contact w Mongols, 9g for contact w America
Mongols give tm for contact w America

Observation: Iroquois, Vikings are monarchy, England, France anarchy; nobody has republic. Thus let's trade for monarchy.

Iroquois give polytheism, literature for contact w Egypt, Spain, 21g
France gives monarchy, mathematics, 58g, tm for contact w America, Egypt, India, Spain, wm
England gives construction, 2g for contact w Egypt, India, Spain, wm
Arabs give currency, wm, 12g for monarchy, contact w Egypt, Spain, India
We enter Middle Ages and learn monotheism.
We are tech leader (nobody but us has a MA tech) and start min research on engineering, before we get the missing maps and all AI cash.
Japan gives 98g for contact w Egypt, India, Spain
Keltoi give wm, 42g for currency
Mongols give wm for currency
Aztecs give wm, 3g for tm
America gives wm, 38g for currency
Vikings give wm, 5g for contact w Spain
Zulu, China, Mongols give wm for tm
Iroquois give wm, 33g for contact w India, tm
We now have 606g and apart from England, France, and Japan all wms.

World ranking is as follows:Iroquois: 227
India: 227
America: 227
France: 218
Arabs: 180
Egypt: 178
Zulu: 177
Japan: 170
Vikings: 160
Keltoi: 160
England: 156
Spain: 149
China: 148
Aztecs: 138
Mongols: 131
Russia: 102
Our culture is strong compared to the AIs

Now we have to start some wars among the AIs.

Establish embassies in Delhi (55g), declare war on America, sign-up India for ?????

Establish embassy in Madrid (61g), declare war on Egypt, sign-up Spain for math, literature, contact w Keltoi, Mongols.

Establish embassy in Makkah (57g), Paris (58g), Kyoto (87g), Tenochtitlan (65g), Entremont (47g), declare war on Iroquois, sign-up Japan for monarchy, Aztecs for currency, Keltoi for wm, construction.

Establish embassy in Beijing (49g), declare war on Zulu, sign-up China for currency, contact w Spain.

Revolt to monarchy (IMHO better than republic for us, because of the military police); we get 3 turns of anarchy.

IBT French drop settler, spear on eastern island, 2 barb horses approach from the north.

3: 490bc: horse kills barb horse, returns to mountain; galleys sail, Moscow riots (of course).

IBT barb horse attacks ours, promotes it to elite, and dies.

4: 470bc: mm Moscow to stop rioting, galleys sail, horse protects weakened elite

5: 450bc: monarchy established; mm Moscow; horse kills barb approaching from the southeast
Arabs give wm for tm
France gives wm, 9g for wm
Aztecs give tm for tm
Japan, Mongols, Spain give wm for tm
Vikings give wm, 1g for tm
arggh: I forgot to close the India alliance; sign ma vs America with India giving monarchy, construction, wm

6: 430bc: zzzz

7: 410bc: horse sees 2 barb horsemen in the north; India has founded Hyderabad in the north of our continent
Arabs give 20g, wm for wm
India gives wm, 3g for wm
France gives wm, 5g for wm

IBT horse defeats barb horse, is killed by second :(

8: 390bc: mm Moscow for commerce

9: 370bc: Moscow b harbor s horseman; mm
disperse Vandal camp in the southeast getting 25g; send horse west to barb camp, moves on mountain, sees barb warrior

IBT in the north barb horse dies attacking ours fortified on mountain; in the west warrior dies attacking our horse on mountain

10: 350bc: galleys sail, mm Moscow for food

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/tao_sgotm5_350bc.jpg

Next turn, Moscow can be micromanaged to grow and build worker in 1 turn; I suggest roading the forest WNW before going to the iron. I checked (more correct: Civ Assist checked) each turn, whether workers were for sale, but they were not.

Our galleys will soon start to shuffle troops. Build some warriors for upgrade to swords? Maybe a good idea.

We are the only one knowing monotheism; I did not want to trade it away before putting quite some min research turns into engineering.

I did not hunt for goody huts, because in the Middle Ages they only bring 25g, no techs.

Firaxis score 106, Jason score 69

Demiurge (next)
Furiey
Zwingli
TedJackson
tao (just played)

PS: I attach a zip archive with the screenshots from establishing the embassies (except for Makkah which was building a spear and doesn't fit in the 500kb attachment size limit).

Excellent news on the contact trading tao :thumbsup:

It appears that there are 2 main AI continents, and I would first focus on the one where the Pyramids are built. Our first priority should be to conquer 1 town on the other continent and immediately start prebuilding the Forbidden Palace. Since it will (unavoidably) be low rank, corruption should be ~50% at first allowing a second core in a reasonable amount of time. A town on another continent would also allow slave trading with more civs (in order to trade workers, we have to have a city on the same continent as the AI).

(in order to trade workers, we have to have a city on the same continent as the AI).Now I understand why Civ Assist reports 0 workers tradable by India (who have a town on our continent), but has an empty entry for all other civs.

Got it.
Contact at last. Turn 2 must have been a long one. Tech parity, maps...the list goes on. :goodjob:
Will play tomorrow as there is a lot of new information to digest.

That was quite a trading session - I think when this game is over I might go back to those turns and have a look myself. This is an area I know I could improve in.

This is certainly an interesting map. I've noticed one 1tile island, I wonder how many more there will be. They could cause trouble though - unless we block them somehow we won't be able to get an early conquest date.

Couldn't help myself, looked over the save and played anyway.

350 bc (pre-turn)
Hit return

IBT: Mongols are building the Great Library
Barb horse attacks horse fortified on mountain, dies
Another barb appears at same location

330 bc (turn 1)
Moscow builds horse < worker
MM Moscow for 10 shields, max growth
Not sure what to do with the galleys. Everyone is still building wonders and, given what we know by our embassies, the Aztecs are the closest to completing one, the great library. Decide to position the galleys at the southernmost point of our landmass where they can go to two possible troop loading points.
Horses scout out barbs
Go through civs to check for workers, that's a long list
Decide to leave sci at minimum for a while to bank gold for warrior upgrades
Leave lux at 20% to increase score since we can afford it for a little while

IBT: Barb horse dies attacking fortified horse in the N, another barb horse appears, Indians are building the Hanging Gardens

310 bc (turn 2)
Moscow builds worker < warrior
MM Moscow for 10 spt
Elite horse disbands barb camp near iron
Worker moves to workable tundra forest to repair pillaged road

IBT: Iroquois and Aztecs sign a peace treaty. Barb horse redlines fortified horse and dies promoting him to elite

290 bc (turn 3)
Moscow builds warrior < next
Horses roam
Look through civs to see if we can get any more wars started to slow tech pace. We are up construction still on a few but we already have MAs with those civs. We don't want to give away monotheism yet so nothing to be done.

270 bc (turn 4)
Moscow builds warrior < next
Move a couple of horses in to let new camps spring up
Aztecs, Arabs, France and India know Republic

IBT: Egypt and Arabs have signed a peace treaty

250 bc (turn 5)
Moscow builds warrior < worker. Growth in one
Elite horse kills barb warrior

IBT: Aztecs city of Tenochtitlan completes great library

230 bc (turn 6)
Moscow builds worker < warrior
Elite horse destroys camp
Worker joins worker on tundra forest

IBT: Paris has completed the Pyramids

210 bc (turn 7)
Moscow builds warrior < galley, MM for 16 spt
Since we now have our first victim, begin moving galleys to nearest crossing point
Horse N spies an Indian settler pair
Begin moving horses closer towards Moscow for possible transport

190 bc (turn 8)
MM Moscow for 14 spt, still get galley in one
Workers complete road, one moves to iron, one moves to road toward loading area

170 bc (turn 9)
Moscow builds galley < warrior, MM for 16 spt

IBT: Japan and Iroquois have signed a peace treaty. Barb horse dies attacking our elite horse N

150 bc (turn 10)
MM Moscow for 14 spt

Post-turn:
I left a worker ready to either road or build a colony on the iron. We have 20 turns until Moscow expands again and claims them. We now have 6 warriors, 4 horses and we will have 5 galleys next turn. We are still up monotheism on everyone but I'm not sure for how much longer. In addition we are up monarchy and construction on the Chinese and Mongols. It might be time soon to start up some wars again. Against the French to soften them up? There is a barb camp on the NW peninsula and one near the Indian city to the N although the Indians should settle that in a turn or two.

We have MAs with:
Keltoi, 2 turns against Iroquois
China, 2 turns against Zulu
India, 5 turns against Americans

With a large map and the necessity to regrow captured cities, the Pyramids will be an important Wonder. Therefore, it would be a good idea to go after France first. All of the coast squares around Moscow will make galley movement there problematic, so we should set up a transit point on a more exposed position. Roading the indicated tiles would set up a 3 turn transit to the shore of Tours where we could start the FP and begin the conquest of the second continent.
Transit Map (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5_150bc_map.jpg)

I've noticed one 1tile island, I wonder how many more there will be. They could cause trouble though - unless we block them somehow we won't be able to get an early conquest date.What you do in these cases is capture lots of cities, make peace getting the 1-tile island as part of the deal, then declare war again and finish the AI.

What you do in these cases is capture lots of cities, make peace getting the 1-tile island as part of the deal, then declare war again and finish the AI.Hadn't thought of that!

Got it

Will look tonight, but probably won't play until tomorrow

edit: Sorry, but things have not gone to plan today and I've not had a chance to play. I will play tomorrow - no work then!

Looking at the save...

I like Zwingli's suggestion, so, France is going to donate the Pyramids to our worthy cause. With 20 turns to expansion over the Iron, I think we'll want to be off before that, so a colony is in order. I also notice that Hyperbad on our island is now at size 2 - another target to get a second city on our continent (once our alliance against America ends of course)? Must ensure that Moscow is not left undefended when on the little French trip. We still have alliances in the war against the Iroquios - France's neighbours, but will be able to stop that before we declare on France.

edit/add: Iroquios aren't too keen on peace at the moment though - they're insulted with straight peace and need 160 gold to agree to it :(

Not having much luck. Got to 130 BC and Civ crashed when I contacted Joan, I have contacted mad-bax so hopefully a solution will be forthcoming.

In that short time, I built a colony on the Iron, India have built another city on our continent, France and Arabs have Monotheism. All suggestions welcome. Unfortunately I have visitors coming soon, so will probably have to finish tomorrow.

Not having much luck. Got to 130 BC and Civ crashed when I contacted Joan, I have contacted mad-bax so hopefully a solution will be forthcoming..Sounds like item 3 of the maintenance post:3. See posts #51, #53 on how to cure the crash when starting diplomacy with some civs.

Yes that's what it sounds like, I applied the fix as soon as it was posted however (and have tried reapplying it just in case something went wrong), and still get the problem.

OK copying the files for Joan manually seemed to solve Joan, so copied the rest except for

copy Mo_01.flc Mo_D01.flc
copy Mo_02.flc Mo_D02.flc

which already exist. That appears to fix it. Batch file must not have done what was expected. Have to play tomorrow now though.

edit/add: found the problem with the batch file and informed mad-bax. If I'd actually read the messages that it gave when I ran it - it would have been obvious it wasn't working! :crazyeye:

I also notice that Hyperbad on our island is now at size 2 - another target to get a second city on our continent (once our alliance against America ends of course)?
I think we want to hold off on that for a while yet. At least until we get the FP built as Zwingli mentioned, and a second core for unit production, in French territory. By waiting, we leave Tours at ring one. Subsequently we will build the FP faster, reducing corruption in our captured cities on the larger landmass. Hopefully the second core can build enough units to take the larger continent and our capital can focus on clearing up our own and the northern landmass.

150 BC (Turn 0): With the Pyramids, France looks like a good first target. I ask myself - will we want to attack France within 20 turns? (Moscow expansion time) – I answer yes, therefore I build a colony on the Iron; After struggling with the FA Advisor, I check Civ Assist for existing alliances we are currently at war with an alliance against the Iroquois, one of France’s neighbours, decide to wait at least until that expires before declaring. Press button.

IBT: Barb appears from as yet unknown camp in the SE; India found Bengal near Hyperbad.

130 BC (Turn 1): Moscow: Galley -> Sword; MM Moscow for 16 spt; Civ Assist says France, Arabs, Indians and Japan now have Monotheism. (This is where the crash problems occurred and I had to reload from the autosave) Move galleys out towards loading point, in trying to scroll map miss move Horse near Northern Worker (should still be safe); upgrade Veteran Warriors to Swords (5 off); debate long and hard about whether to sell Mono now, with 1 turn to go on our alliances against Iroq and Zulu, but 4 Civs now have it, so…

declare war on France
Spain: Alliance v France, 53 gold, WM for Monotheism
Aztecs: Alliance v France, 49 gold, WM for Monotheism
China: Alliance v France, 28 gold, WM for Monotheism
Keltoi: 41 gold, WM for Monotheism
Build Embassy with Mongols (see pic)
Mongols: Alliance v France, 28 gold, WM for Monarchy

With the WM trades we now see all 3 barb camps on our island.

IBT: barb moves

110 BC (Turn 2): Worker roads; Sword moves to protect Worker (he’ll go that way anyway); Alliances with Chinese v Zulu and Keltoi v Iroquois can be stopped at anytime, but I leave them running for now (Iroq want 160 gold for Peace and have gained Monotheism); injured Horse fortifies to heal; MM Moscow for 14 spt and Sword in 1 (should have done a Worker first, but too late now); just realised I started the road N in the wrong place – bad day yesterday.

IBT: Keltoi cancel our alliance against the Iroquois, lose a galley to a Barb Galley

90 BC (Turn 3): Moscow: Sword > Worker; sink Barb Galley

IBT: Zzzz

70 BC (Turn 4): Moscow: Worker > Sword; Moscow on 14 spt; continue moving Galleys to gather point.

IBT: Zzzz

50 BC (Turn 5): Moscow grows back to 16 spt; continue moving Galleys to gather point; workers move to new spot to road; We are now free to cancel our Alliance with the Chinese against the Zulu at any time.

IBT: Ghandi wants our entire treasury to continue the Alliance against America, I say no; Barb appears near Iron Colony;

30 BC (Turn 6): Moscow: Sword > Sword (16spt) move to deal with Barbs next turn.

IBT: England declares War on the Chinese; Barb Warrior attacks our Horse on a Mountain and dies; Arabs, English and Iroquois start Sun Tzu.

10 BC (Turn 7):: Sword dispatches Barb Warrior by Iron colony; Moscow 14spt; Bengal is now at size 2, Hyperbad size 3.

IBT: French, Japanese and Keltoi start Sun Tzu;

10 AD (Turn 8): Moscow: Sword > Worker; prices for Feudalism start at 280 gold, I’ll wait; disperse SE barb camp for 25 gold.

IBT: Zulu start Sun Tzu

30 AD (Turn 9): Moscow: Worker > Sword (Moscow 14spt); disperse Barb Camp near Iron Colony with Elite Horse.

IBT: India and America make Peace; disperse another Barb Camp

50 AD (Turn 10): disperse another Barb Camp; workers roading; Barb dispersing Horses return towards Moscow.

Treasury: 619 gold, +9 gpt, Engineering in 14 (10%)

Post-turn: Fuedalism has been available for a couple of turns now and Engineering has just appeared on the market. I was disappointed with what I got for Monotheism, I was hoping our monopoly would last until our alliances expired, but no. We are at War with Egypt, America, France, Zulu and Iroquois. The alliances against France have 11 turns to run, the Chinese alliance against Zulu could be cancelled at any time. We have unfortunately lost a Galley to barbs, leaving us 4 Galleys and a total of:

Warrior = 1
Sword = 8
Horse = 4

Perhaps the Sword currently being built would be better changed to a Galley.

Zwingli (up next)
TedJackson
tao
Demiurge
Furiey (just played)

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/tao_SG005_AD0050_01.SAV)

Mongol Embassy:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/tao_SGOTM5_BC0130_Mongols.jpg

I also found it difficult to remember where all the Civs were on the map, so did this to help. Cities are as at 130 BC and the lines are very approx, but it gives the general picture.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/tao_SGOTM5_BC0130_Civs.jpg

150 BC (Turn 0): With the Pyramids, France looks like a good first target. I ask myself - will we want to attack France within 20 turns? (Moscow expansion time) – I answer yes, therefore I build a colony on the Iron;IMHO it would have been much better to delay this and build a couple more 1 turn warriora; we had the cash to upgrade them.

We should not hunt barbs with elite horsemen, but use the barbs to promote vet horses to elite.

With the gotm mod, feudalism allows to upgrade swords to Frankish axemen (4/2/1) at 40 shields.

50 AD (0)
Sell Maps around for a significant sum, buy Engineering for 408g + WM from Aztecs. Sell Engineering around for Feudalism, Republic, peace with Zulu and Egypt, and some change.

Start Moving Swordsmen to upgrade, and switch Moscow to galley. Upgrade our elite warrior to an axeman (leaders aren't too important in this game).

70 AD (1)
Continue upgrading

90 AD (2)
Buy alliances vs. the Iroquois with the Japanese and Keltoi using Engineering. The Iroquois look like a good target to weaken anyway.

110 AD (3)
Begin moving axemen toward the embarkment point for shipping.

130 AD (4)
Disperse a barb camp. Trade maps for considerable gold.

150 AD (5)
Disperse a barb camp. 7 axemen depart for France.

170 AD (6)
Up to this point, Moscow has produced 2 galleys, 1 worker, and 1 horseman. Will continue on Horsemen until Moscow can get to 20spt.

190 AD (7)
Sell maps for another good sum.

IBT- Contact with Spain causes crash. Turn redone. Our horseman fend of a barb warrior.

210 AD (8)
Unload 7 axemen next to Tours.
IBT- No French attacks.

230 AD (9)
We attack Tours, and take the city from a spear and pike at a cost of 2 axemen. There are 2 resistors and 2 slave workers in the city, and we start prebuilding in Tours for the FP.

Tours is slightly more than 50% corrupt and can muster 3 uncorrupted shields with 3 active citizens.

Disband a barb camp.
IBT- No French attacks. Resistance in Tours ends causing the city to riot.

250 AD (10)
Chain 2 more axemen to Tours. Another galley is ready to depart from our shores once our spare horsemen get into range.

Post-Turn
We have 7 axemen holed up in Tours, but I don't think that is sufficient to take a size 9 pike defended capital city. Once the forest completes on the grassland next to Moscow, it can be reconfigured for 20spt after waste (assuming we don't lose 2 to waste) and can crank 1 turn catapults or 2 turn axemen. Eventually we will want a market and library in Moscow, but troops for conquest will earn better returns at the moment.

Got it


Ted

I probably would have attacked Paris directly. Now Tours is under great cultural pressure and we have to take Paris nonetheless. This is the next major task.

I doubt that we should build a library. IMHO we will get most of our techs from peace deals and not from researching on our own. A market might be good to get more cash and happiness (once we have more luxuries).

PS: Creating a scientist in Tours and setting 0% research gives +3gpt.

Some more observations: We have very little discussion; is this because the gameplay is considered straightforward?
IMHO it is wrong to forest the grasland. Better forest the river tiles in the north to make them 1/2/3 and keep the 2/1/3 tile. That would allow us to run 20 spt food deficit turns even with 2 shields lost to corruption and grow again if we build 30 shield pikes.
I definitely would build at least 2 pikes to defend our axemen (switch now?).
A few catapults would be nice too.
And a market once we can build it in 5 turns and our immediate military needs are dealt with.

Sorry guys,

but I need to skip this round.


Ted

Regarding the library, we are scientific so it would be a cheap source of culture reducing our long term flip odds. Units + a marketplace are certainly higher priotities, but at some point we will want the library as well.

For Paris, I would expect a capital city with a wonder to be defended by ~5 mixed units. Probably 3 regular pikemen + 2 reg spearmen. Once we can ship the current horsemen, some pikes to defend Tours, and some reinforcements to replace any losses, A force of 7 axemen + 3 horsemen should be enough to take the city. We will probably want extra units en-route at the point of taking the city to ensure we can keep it.

Zwingli: I have tried to replicate your crash at the diplo screen with Spain, but can't.
Spain is a worry to me because the flic for the leaderhead is split into several files in different directories which is not the same as the others.

In art/Flics you should have a file called spain.flc and 7 folders called spain1.flc to spain7.flc. Could you confirm that they exist please?

In art/Flics you should have a file called spain.flc and 7 folders called spain1.flc to spain7.flc. Could you confirm that they exist please?On my Macintosh I have those 8 identical files (no folders).

Sorry guys,

but I need to skip this round.

TedGot it. (But post must be at least 10 characters long.)

Some more observations: We have very little discussion; is this because the gameplay is considered straightforward?
IMHO it is wrong to forest the grasland. Better forest the river tiles in the north to make them 1/2/3 and keep the 2/1/3 tile. That would allow us to run 20 spt food deficit turns even with 2 shields lost to corruption and grow again if we build 30 shield pikes.
I definitely would build at least 2 pikes to defend our axemen (switch now?).
A few catapults would be nice too.
And a market once we can build it in 5 turns and our immediate military needs are dealt with.
Certainly not me! In fact the last 10 turns I played took a long time, even excluding the crash problems. Lack of comments are more an indication that I can't actually think what to comment :( my lack of experience with the GOTM mod is also showing - I completely missed the Axeman upgrade.
Definitely, foresting the Tundra River tiles to 1/2/3 rather than changing a 2/1/3 tile gives us the flexibility of both options
We also need to make sure we have enough to defend Moscow, particlulary with the cities being built on our island now. At what point do we start on these cities? There are now 3 Indian cities size 2+, although taking these would slow the Forbidden Palace manual build in France. India is also one of the stronger Civs at the moment and we have a war on 2 fronts.
& 5. Moscow has a lot of demands on it, another city to help with production would be useful. Tours can build catapults, but does not have access to the resources to build other useful units yet, do we build Warriors/Spears and take them back to Moscow for upgrade? Or does Tours start on the Forbidden Palace - Wouldn't Paris be better for that though, if we take it soon?

In art/Flics you should have a file called spain.flc and 7 folders called spain1.flc to spain7.flc. Could you confirm that they exist please? Thanks for looking into it. It turns out I was missing the unaltered spain.flc file.

I did not finish yesterday evening and neither during today's lunch break. But here is the report now:

0: 250AD: stop forest planting; switch taxman in Tours to scientist; set 0% science; wake the 2 sleeping French workers and send them roading the forest

IBT Tours pop shrinks to 4

1:260AD: 4 AIs learn theology, but not tech trades possible
load 4 horsemen in galleys; move galleys; workers(3) start roading Tours forest, 3+1 planting Moscow forest
make 68g from map trades; mm Tours creating scientist; spend 232g hurrying temple in Tours
our alliances with Aztecs, Mongols, Spain vs. France end this turn - let alliances expire

IBT Mongols and France sign peace

2:270AD: Moscow b horse s next; Tours b temple s harbor; mm Tours (scientist)
ship-chain 2 elite horsemen to Tours; load 2 more horses in galley; move galleys; mm Tours now at stable pop 3: 2 busy, 1 scientist
still no tech trade for theology possible

IBT Mongols want engineering; because it is well known and the Mongols have a powerful UU, we agree
China and England sign peace

3: 280AD: AIs (including France) know chivalry; it will get dirty

IBT France drops reg sword N of Ciudad de la Luna

4: 290AD: Moscow b horse s pike; move workers to plant another 3g forest and road mountain N of Moscow; ship-chain 2 more horses to Tours; load 2 more horses in galley, move galleys
now or never: we send 7 axemen, 3 horses from Tours towards Paris; mm Tours (clown) and Moscow (scientist)

5: 300AD: ship-chain 2 more horses to Tours
axeman moves towards Paris and spots 2 French colleagues approaching: bad
5/5 horse attacks and withdraws
5/4 horse kills 3/3 axe -> 1/5
4/4 horse attacks 3/3 axe and dies ; axe -> 2/3
troops move towards Paris

IBT 2/3 axe kills our 4/4 axe

6: 310AD: Moscow b pike s axe
Tours' culture expands and Tours horse can reach Paris; we make a desperate attack on Paris:
4/4 axe kills 3/3 pike dies -> 3/4
4/4 axe vs 3/3 pike dies -> pike 2/3
4/4 axe kills 3/3 spear -> 3/4
4/4 axe vs 3/3 spear dies -> spear 1/3
4/4 axe kills 3/3 spear -> axe 2/4
4/4 axe kills 3/3 spear -> axe 1/4
4/4 horse kills 2/4 pike -> 1/4
4/4 horse kills 1/3 spear -> 2/4 and
we capture Paris with The Pyramids:band: :banana:[dance] with all of pop 9 resisting; start temple
ship-chain 2 horses to Paris
4/4 horse kills 1/3 axe -> 2/4 and back to Paris
move 1/5 horse to Tours
mm Moscow, Tours; move galleys
And the big question is: do we make peace before French knights arrive? Now? Joan is not willing to give either chivalry or theology, thus we wait and hope.

IBT French want audience and we deny; stupid French worker moves to Paris border; Paris riots, 7 of 9 resistors

7: 320AD: 2/4 horse captures French worker; colleague pillages road NE-NE of Paris to break connection between the new French capital Orleans and their horses; galleys sail; move 2/3 galley to Paris for healing
mm Moscow

8: 330AD: Moscow b axe s next with mm; pillage French wines

IBT Zulu offer wm for wm, 8g: no; France and Aztecs sign peace

9: 340AD: move units; Moscow still riots down to 2/9 resistors

IBT Aztecs and England sign peace; Joan sends 2 axemen, 1 sword

10: 350AD: Paris stops rioting; Moscow w axeman s horse with mm
send galley with horse, axe to raze Besancon to soften Joan; galley sees French galley - the counterstrike; pillage French horses 3NE of Paris; switch elite horse to Moscow, vet horse to Tours
with 2 military police, Tours now has 3spt; switch Moscow citizens to specialists (1 scientist, 7 taxmen); hurry temple for 236 g

Firaxis 128, Jason 84

Ideas on how to continue:
I would suggest to wait for the French to approach Moscow before attacking them
I set-up a galley to ship-chain horse and axe to mountain at Besancon; let's hope to get tech for peace from Joan after we raze it and push back her counter-strikes
I am afraid of knights appearing; we should build some more horses for upgrade; once we have peace, a market in Moscow would be a good idea (5 turns)
China and Spain still lack engineering, I hope for a tech swap deal also.

Mine Paris plains for shields.

IMHO Paris is better located to hold our Forbidden Palace than Tours - in the longer run (despite of its higher corruption). Or am I wrong?

If we find a lot of cash, we might want to hurry a courthouse in Paris.


Demiurge (next)
Furiey
Zwingli
TedJackson
tao (just played)

No time to look at the save tonight but we got Paris - excellent! [dance]

I agree about Forbidden Palace in Paris rather than Tours (not had chance too see what the corruption is like yet though), it will be a better location once it is built.

I am afraid of knights appearing; we should build some more horses for upgrade; once we have peace, a market in Moscow would be a good idea (5 turns)

IMHO Paris is better located to hold our Forbidden Palace than Tours - in the longer run (despite of its higher corruption). Or am I wrong?
Given the fact that we are no longer pre-building the FP, I would think you're right. I'll start a pre-build again once the temple completes as I don't think we'll have the cash to rush a courthouse first.

As far as peace with France, I'll plan on razing Besancon and we'll see what they offer. Part of me wants to take another couple cities from the French core (Orleans and Lyons for the wines and choke points) before musketeers and peace if possible. But that might not be feasable if knights start appearing. I'll just have to get a feel for how many and the type of troops Joan is throwing at us. I'm thinking of trying to chain over 4 more horses ASAP to push the attack forward near the end of my turns or at the beginning of the next set if knights don't appear first.

As to what we'll accept for peace, clearly we don't want Besancon or Cherbourg for corruption reasons, but what will we accept. Theology or chivalry? Since we want to build more horses for upgrade, should we plan to continue minimum research for the next 20 turns and trade theology around — if and when she gives it to us — for MAs where we can? We also don't have a barracks on the French continent yet for upgrading.

Oh and got it. Will play tomorrow since I'm leaving town for the weekend on Saturday.

Taking Paris plus another city was more than I expected :)

Looking at the corruption in Paris, we would lose 5 out of 7 shields if working available tiles, so a courthouse is really necessary to get the FP done in a reasonable time there. Unless we capture/raze some of the neigboring cities, the temple will only gain us 3 tiles against French culture, so I suggest switching to courthouse on turn 0 and rushing. In the event that Paris flips, we have a chance of capturing the courthouse back intact whereas a temple would just disappear. Also, the recovered shields would contribute toward building the temple afterward.

IMHO a temple before the courthouse is better to expand our culture asap (increase difficulty for knights reaching us, "permanently" claim territory N of Paris between the 2 parts of France, more happiness for more productive citizens, more score).

We need mines for Paris to increase production. We want to bring irrigation to Tours.

We should (hopefully) fight France until we get both chivalry and theology, unless we face overwhelming forces.

Raze the island towns, don't conquer them; they are weak and would only increase corruption in Paris and Tours.

Regrettably I doubt that we have the power to capture another French continental town before we have to make peace.

Once we are at peace, a market would be good to increase Moscow's income by 50%.

Whom to attack next? Arabs, because they are close? Japan, because they are relatively weak and have no resources?

On turn 3 I got our first GL and with the rule changes I'd thought I'd take a break to see what we should do with him. Under the new rules, we cannot use him to rush any wonders, but we can disband him for 250 shields. Unfortunately we need 10 (?) cities on this map to even be able to build the FP so we can't disband him toward that yet. Do we:

1. Hold onto him for when we can build the FP. May be awhile and we could get another one by then.
2. Go ahead and build an army of horses or axemen. I hate to tie up the minimal number of troops we have for an army though unless its for defense.
3. Disband him toward the Heroic Epic (wasting 56 shields currently) in Paris for the culture? I switched the temple to a courthouse and will be able to rush the temple in a turn or two.

Hmm I see why you stopped - but can we even disband him towards the Forbidden Palace? Normally you can only hurry that with a leader... Maintenance thread just says:

2. Leaders cannot hurry great wonders or small wonders. They may however be disbanded for 250 shields.

which only leaves an army or another improvement.

Good question Furiey. I'm really not sure. I read the rule changes to mean that we can disband him for 250 shields toward whatever we'd like but I'm not certain.

Edit: Cross-posted with Furiey. Since we technically aren't hurrying a wonder I still think we could disband him toward a wonder build. At least thats the way I read it.

Normally if you disband when building a Wonder though the shields are lost, and 250 would be a lot to lose that way. I don't know much about modding, can that be changed? if so has it been changed?

Ah, I see your point now. You just might be right. I'm going to read through the maintenance post a little more thoroughly to see if this has come up yet.

According to a post about it in the maintenance thread you are right. Good catch. Well that takes that decision off the table. Looks like its an army or another improvement.

When asked if leaders can be disbanded towards a palace, this was the reply:

No. A palace is a wonder. IF a forest chop wouldn't go towards it then a disbanded unit won't either.

so that would suggest no to either the FP or Heroic Epic as well :(

So our choices now are an army, a colosseum (the most expensive culture build available at the moment) or a market, useful later but not immediately.

Not fantastic choices I agree.

But I we don't have the units to spare for an army, (8 horseman, 1 pike and 6 Axemen in the slightly older save I'm looking at)
and
Moscow can build a Market in 6
but
We do need Culture in Paris and were even discussing rushing the Temple, so maybe a Coliseum is the way to go. A Cathedral is the most expensive improvement currently available and we would need a Temple for that first. We're going to be wasting a lot of shields - whatever we use it for - pity they don't carry over to the next item in the queue.

350 ad (pre-turn)
Decide to rush courthouse first in Paris, hit return

IBT: French troops move next to Paris

360 ad (turn 1)
Paris builds courthouse < temple
MM Paris for 1 scientist, taxmen
Workers near Paris complete road, mine
Defeat 3 French troops with axemen promoting one to elite, no losses
Shipchain axeman and horse to mountain near Besancon
Workers near Moscow road
Sell WM around for some gold

IBT: Keltoi and Iroquois sign peace treaty, one French axeman approaches Paris.

370 ad (turn 2)
Moscow builds horse < next
Axeman and horse kill two spears in Besancon, capture one worker load on ship, 2 gold, autoraze it
MM Paris for 1 scientist, taxmen
Fortify troops in Paris
France will give theology or chivalry and 55 gold and WM for peace, don't do it yet

IBT: American warrior dropped off near Tours, three more french troops move toward Paris

380 ad (turn 3)
MM Paris for 1 scientist, taxmen
Attack axeman near Paris with horses given the proximity of more french troops, 2 redline and retreat, elite horse kills him returning to the safety of Paris
Elite horse kills American warrior near Tours producing GL Ivan the Terrible
Pop hut on island to east, get eqWorker, load into boat. Move boat with 2 workers toward ship chain.
Fortify troops on Besancon island to heal.
Move Ivan to Paris and disband him toward colosseum

IBT: 3 French axeman and the first french knight appear next to Paris

390 ad (turn 4)
Moscow builds horse < next
Paris builds colosseum < heroic epic as FP pre-build
MM Paris for 1 scientist, taxmen
Since the first knight appeared, and the majority of our troops in Paris are already licking their wounds, decide to talk to Joan. She will pay theology or chivalry, 67 gold and WM for peace. Look through civs and China is down chivalry and engineering on us and up theology.
Accept peace from the French for chivalry, 67 gold and WM.
See what China will take for theology. Engineering and chivalry. Tell Mao to throw in 3 gold, all he has and the deal is done.
Move galleys to set up a ship chain to send another axeman and horse to island to east. The Iroquois have a city there and we are at war with them.
Set research to invention, with a scientist in Paris
Change Moscow to market

400 ad (turn 5)
MM Paris for 1 scientist, 1 taxmen
Ship chain two workers from Besancon island to Tours
Ship chain an axeman and a horse to Besancon island
Rush a harbor in Tours

IBT: Aztecs and Iroquois have signed an MA against us.

410 ad (turn 6)
Tours builds harbor < barracks
Kyoto (Japanese) completes Sun Tzu's
Paris starved to pop 1
With the loss of the scientist in Paris we are no longer researching. Setting sci at 10% only leaves us with 1 gpt. Decide to leave it off.
Move troops near Akwesane (Iroquois city on island to east), flush out and kill one Iroquois warrior on the way.

420 ad (turn 7)
Paris culture expands
Troops advance on Akewasne

430 ad (turn 8)
Troops advance on Akewasne

440 ad (turn 9)
Moscow builds market < library, MM for production in 2
Attack Akewasne, losing one horse and killing a spear and a pike. Autoraze and capture a worker
Invention is now known by a few civs, but we can't afford it.

450 ad (turn 10)
Horse defeats barb to the west of Moscow, goes to mountain to heal

Post-turn:
We are low on cash for either upgrades or a tech trade at the moment. We are up some techs on a couple civs and down invention on a few. Once Moscow builds the library, we need two more units for MP. We can then turn down the lux slider.

Currently India is making me the most nervous. They went from cautious to annoyed in my turns and we are average against them militarily. They now have war elephants although I have yet to see any on our continent. That also means they will start their GA soon. It might be good to get another MA with them against someone on their continent. Currently they will sign one against America but it is costly.

Furiey (next)
Zwingli
TedJackson
tao
Demiurge (just played)

I'm very sorry I missed the discussion on Leader usage. I would never ever have used the Leader for a colosseum, but for an army, to be filled with knights.

I would not build the library in Moscow. We currently have to up science to 50% to reduce invention from 37 to 35 turns. A library won't help us. IMHO we will NOT research but follow the war and extortion principle. Knights instead of science! Whether Moscow's culture expands in 550 or 450 turns doesn't make a big difference in my opinion. Switch to knight (plus mm scientist).

We could ally with India and afterwards hit them hard on our continent. If we conquer about 3 cities, they will agree to peace before they have shipped enforcements for counter-attack.

Japan with Sun Tzu's still looks like a good target.

OK, Got it (I'll play tomorrow).

Out of interest, this is our position relative to the other Civs

We are: Strong Average Weak
to: Egypt Arabs America
Aztecs Iroquois France
Japan India Zulu
Keltoi
England
Vikings
China
Mongols
Spain

For Japan: We're Stronger
Kyoto has Sun Tzu, Oracle and Great Wall
they also have 2 cities by Moscow (one only size 1)
against Japan: We are allied with them against Iroquois
(it can now be broken if we wish)
They're between Iroqouois and Astecs whom we're at War with
They have SamuraiFor an Alliance against America, India wants our WM, 131g and 16gpt - that is costly

For an Alliance against America, India wants our WM, 131g and 16gpt - that is costlyToo costly, IMHO.

I looked at the save an Japan has no iron. Thus they should not have samurai.

I suppose we strengthen our troops for the next turns, upgrade some horses.

And defend against approaching Aztecs. Let's hope for another Leader.

And hope for other civs to populate our island (and the silks place) for convenient capture.

Should we sign a ROP with Japan now to give our troops potential access to the Iroquois settlement of Oka? IMHO a good idea; we will not be ready to attack Japan before the 20 turns are over. And Iroquois will probably agree to peace, after we razed Oka.

Ah yes - Oka, now my monitor has flicked back to the correct colours again (it keeps going yellow - I must get a new one!) I can see that that is now Iroquois, not Japanese. I've checked and the Japanese are not currently trading for Iron - their source is by Nagoya near Moscow, so no Samurai yet. It also looks like they've lost cities in their homelands and are down to 3 main cities with Edo and Nara cut off from their core.

Bad News

Turn 8 and Paris has just flipped. We have 6 turns left of our Peace Treaty.

450 AD (Turn 0): Change Moscow to Knight and mm for Scientist; get ROP with Japan so that we can get to Oka without having to ship troops in and will be ready to attack Japan when it expires. Press button.

IBT: Spain will graciously give us their WM for our WM and Theology – I decline this amazing offer.

460 AD (Turn 1): Workers by Paris road; Iroquois Worker from island into Galley; Japanese Galley by island.

IBT: Egyptians talk, they want Chivalry, they are the only civ without it so take their 49 gold and WM before someone else does.

470 AD (Turn 2): Workers move to new spot to road, land Iroquois worker near Moscow, realise I should have taken him to the Paris area; upgrade Horse on Iron.

IBT: Aztecs and France sign alliance against Spain.

480 AD (Turn 3): Moscow: Knight -> Knight; put 1 Knight back on Iron, 1 stays in Moscow; Education is now available, Egypt still has no gold, but has managed to gain both Theology and Invention!

IBT: Americans start Leonardo’s

490 AD (Turn 4): Workers work; 4 Civs now have Education, but we still can’t afford Invention, Shaka for example wants WM, 189 gold and 15gpt for it!

IBT: England and France sign alliance against Spain; Egyptians start Sistine Chapel.

500 AD (Turn 5): We still can’t afford Invention, even if we offer France an alliance against the Spanish.

IBT: Liz demands TM and 28 gold. I tell her where to go and she does.

510 AD (Turn 6): Tours: Barracks -> Worker

IBT: American Galley approaches island

520 AD (Turn 7): Moscow: Knight -> Knight; mm Tours to grow in 1, Worker in 1 with growth; move 2 Knights towards Oka, Nagoya is now pop 2.

IBT: $%*!£*%$ :mad: . Paris flips to the French (we lose a couple of Axemen there).

530 AD (Turn 8): Tours: Worker -> Pike (won’t be finished for a long time and can easily be changed); upgrade a couple of Horsemen in Tours; start to bring Workers back from around Paris.

IBT: Joan insists we leave the Paris area, rather than destroy our reputation I agree.

540 AD (Turn 9): Knights move past Nagoya and note the 3/3 Spear defending; Spanish have founded another town on the other side of our island; take 1 Horseman back to Moscow.

IBT: Japan and Iroquois make Peace; Indians start Leonardo’s

550 AD (Turn 10): Probably should have waited but attack Oka with Knights – 1st defeats Vet Spear and is promoted, 2nd loses to Regular Spear, redlining it. Upgrade Horse in Moscow; Workers are unmoved

Treasury: 62 gold, +18 gpt, Invention in 27 (0%)

Post-turn: Thoroughly depressed about this set of turns. Paris flipping obviously cramps our plans a little. So what to do now – plan for FP in Tours instead? If so will need to stop the forest chop. Is it still Japan next? Another go at France once our Peace Treaty expires? Spain and take the city near Moscow? And Oka, 1/3 Spear defending, raze it and peace with Iroquois or keep it? I’m beginning to feel if we don’t get more cities soon we will drop too far behind.

Zwingli (up next)
TedJackson
tao
Demiurge
Furiey (just played)

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/tao_SG005_AD0550_01.SAV)

Yes, we suffered a significant set-back. IMHO all hopes for a laurel are gone. We have to see that we win this game now.

I think we have 3 main alternatives: In 4 turns attack Paris again. We might take it, but can we hold it? Our axemen have to raze Cherbourg to make Joan willing to talk peace soon!
Attack India and build a home base before attacking on the other continent again (Japan?).
Go directly for Japan next.
I'm sort of undecided between 1 and 2.

PS: Create a taxman in Moscow this turn and set lux to 10%.

Should have done this before, Paris just before it flipped. Just a guess at the culture relative Civ cultures from the histograph - I haven't pixel counted or anything, not enough time, late for work as it is. Sensitivity: 0.1 on the relative cultures makes 1 difference to the garrison. The no. tile under AI influence is more dramatic, if they were all under our influence a garrison of 2 would be enough.

Got it, and will see if I can improve the situation. I will probably at least start prebuilding the FP somewhere, since even a poorly placed FP is much better than none in our current condition.

550 AD (0)
Trade maps for enough gold to upgrade 2 horsemen

560 AD (1)
Start building catapults in Moscow, and kill 2 jaguar warriors at Tours.

IBT- Arabs extort 21g.

570 AD (2)
Sell maps for enough gold to upgrade 1 horse (recover our gold from the Arabs).


580 AD (3)
Set up to capture Paris next turn, chain a couple more units to Tours and begin moving the stranded axemen toward this front.

590 AD (4)
Cancel peace with France.
We capture Paris + 2 workers at no cost, but lose a knight killing an Iroquois knight. The courthouse is still intact inside Paris, so the city begins the FP prebuild again.

IBT- No counterattack.

600 AD (5)
Consolidate our hold on Paris, and begin shipping catapults over.

610 AD (6)
Lose an elite horse killing a longbow, then lose a knight killing 2 Iroquois knights.

IBT- Fend off another French knight in defense.

620 AD (7)
Kill 2 iroquois knights and 1 french knight at no cost using catapult backup.

IBT- Our redlined axeman fends off an archer

630 AD (8)
Kill 1 Iroquois axeman and 1 longbow at no cost with the aid of catapults.

640 AD (9)
Move a stack of knights into position to attack Chartes. Sell maps around for extra gold.

IBT- 2 of our catapults are captured by an Iroquois knight.

650 AD (10)
Bombard the Iroquois knight with our remaining catapults, finish it off, and recapture our catapults.

We capture Chartes at a cost of 1 knight cutting off the French iron supply (5 resistors). The culture pressure on Paris has greatly diminished, and it is probably possible to prevent another flip with sufficient garrison.

Post-Turn
I leave diplomacy open and several units unmoved because there is a strategic decision to be made. We can get Education for peace with France and prosecute war with the Iroquois, or can pay for peace with the Iroquois and continue to make gains in France. We have captured the French iron supply, so their counterattacks will be weakening if we don't give them time to recover, but we could really use the help on technology.

Good fighting. :thumbsup:

IMHO we should make peace with France, because we have a number of wounded units in the open and Iroquois and Aztecs approaching to be dealt with. Fishing for Leader?

I would not get education, but invention, 90, wm from Joan. We don't want to build universities, etc. and might want to keep the option to capture The Great Library (which is in Tenochtitlan and the Aztecs are relatively weak, because trapped in the jungle).

IMHO we should merge our 2 native workers into Paris next turn. And I would hurry a temple. And build 2 mines for Paris.

Fantastic - a great result after my disasterous turns! No time for any flip calcs this morning, I'll do some tonight if it's not too late.

PS: The French have another supply of Iron by Marseille.

Flipcalc for Paris (with pixel counting for culture levels) is looking much better now that Chartres has taken the pressure off the boarders:

Chartres however....

I can never remember whether with a city at this size only the 9 tiles count or not, and whether it's all tiles under AI influence, or just the Civ in question, so 3 cases here, but either way the numbers are not too good, and if we lose Chartres, the pressure is back on Paris. Oh yes, and if it riots, the probability of flipping doubles.

To minimize the flip chance of Chartes, we should make peace with France and pile all of the injured knights into the city, then temporarilly activate the happiness governor there. This will quell all the resisters in 1 turn without the risk of riot. Next, we should starve down the city as usual until there is only 1 French citizen. There is only 1 tile that will be occupied by French culture (Furiey's case #2) that can eventually be recovered with a temple making the flip chance quite managable. Unfortunately, I think flips are going to be a problem in this game since our palace is far from captured cities.

I wasn't aware that "governor on" quells all resistors in 1 turn. Good to know if it proofs true.

We might also build 2-3 "cheap" pikes in Moscow (only 2 turns instead of 4 for knights) to increase our troops. I checked again and France is even willing to give some gpt for peace in addition to invention and wm and their gold.

Once we razed the Iroquois city on our continent (maybe better than keeping it to speed the FP build) Hia should be willing to give peace to our convenience. Don't forget to do some pillaging immediately before making peace; this always helps. ;)

I don't think it quells all in one turn, I think it stops the rioting when there is the situation that the city would riot as soon as a resistor is quelled. Think why we don't use it usually in a city - in normal circumstances we get one turn to see that there are more unhappy than happy citizens, the city governor though acts immediately, putting a citizen to a specialist in the IBT, losing one turn of production relative to control. In the rioting situation we do not get that one turn grace period, the city riots immediately and there is no opportunity for the human player to do anything about it - city governor to the rescue!

Our ROP with the Japanese must be about to expire, are they still a viable target or do we renew for another 20 turns?

This is a draft of the team post for the 1st spoiler. Please feal free to comment:

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