SGOTM5 - Russia. Game Thread Xteam.

Hi everyone, and welcome to the SGOTM5 Game thread.

Note: EVERYONE will have to install the correct resource graphics whether or not they have played SGOTM4.


Here is the start position.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5-starta.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5-startb.jpg

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Russia
World size - Large, 25% land give or take.
Difficulty Regent - but plays harder.
The map is handbuilt, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

Here are a couple of links you might find useful.

The original GOTM23 Announcement. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/gotm23_arabs.shtml)
The Constitution (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1733966&postcount=61)
The GOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=71788)
SGOTM5 Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=105346)

This Months' sponsored variant is OBCC - One Built City Conquest the rules for which are as follows.

1. You may never build a settler.
2. You must win by conquest victory condition.

Hi everyone. Please sign in when you are ready, and we'll get the preflight discussions going.

I'm very intrigued by this start. I assume no one thinks we should settle on the spot :rolleyes: So the first question in my mind is which way we head to build the only city we'll ever found ourselves. The only breadcrumb I can see is the river starting at the SE mountain.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam_CoA.gif
Mistifit signing in for duty. Again thank you for picking me up for this SGOTM challenge. I've played SG's with both Alan and Gator.
For Capt Buttkick and leif erikson I am a Monarch/Emp level player. I live in the Eastern Standard time zone (which is GMT -5 IIRC) I'm normally on line through the day 6A to 6P most days. I lurked your game thread last game and thouroughly enjoyed all of your discussions before and between turns. Have no fear I can promise one thing for this game...I will do nothing but help you in the King's of Spam Award.
I will warn you though, as it says in my sig I do own 2 wooden utensils from the SGOTM. (we need diferent award for this one though a laurel of some sort would be nice)

BTW the img. above is the Russian Coat of Arms

Welcome to our small but very verbose band of lunatics, Mistfit. :wavey:

I think we all know the ground rules for the SG aspects of the team activity, but please can everyone make sure they read the game modifications list in m-b's maintenance thread. He's played around with the game mechanics a bit, and some of the changes are quite fundamental. Eg no SGLs :eek: no settlers from huts :eek: :eek:

As Russia We Are Scientific and Expansionist right? Giving us Bronze working and pottery. I've put a bit of thought into the start here.

I think we have 2 choices

A. Look at all possiblilities before making the decision

Turn 1
Scout S - E to Mtn with the river
Worker - W
Settler stays put unless a great start is seen

Turn 2
Scout N - NW
Worker W to Mtn (this one may have a river as well - there is somthing at the bottom of the Mtn in the snap shot)
Settler stays put unless a great start is seen at the second mtn

Turn 3
Scout NW - N to 3rd Mtn.
Worker and Settler to which ever we decide on.

The problem with checking out all three is going to be we've wasted 3 turns and it will take at least 4 to 5 turns to get the city completely out of the tundra from the start.

B. Go blindly sending all units towards the one semi-sure direction (SE)

I've opened the start save and confirmed that we can see the start of a river flowing south from the SW mountain in the screenshot. So we have at least two breadcrumbs. Purely for symmetry, I wouldn't be surprised if we found a third river starting from the northern mountain as well. It may be that there are equal starts available whichever direction you head in, as anything else looks like too much of a lottery.

Recent discussions about goodie huts in the GOTM forum indicate that M-B is against random factors that can have a big influence on the game, and we can already see that he has put that into action here with the removal of goodie hut settlers.

The changes I've made to the base rules are an experiment only. Please feel free to comment on them as you play, in the spoilers and in the maintenance thread. I've got no intention of foisting these changes on people if they don't want them.

[QUOTE=Mistfit]I will warn you though, as it says in my sig I do own 2 wooden utensils from the SGOTM. (we need diferent award for this one though a laurel of some sort would be nice)[\QUOTE]
@Misfit-While I am sure you are proud of your spoons, they are only good for firewood here. :lol: Please use them to keep your mousehand warm as we search for a home away from the tundra. :devil2:
Welcome to Spam Central, home of the insanely twitching fingers of the XMen!! :king: Thought I would check in and say welcome back to my comrades. :salute:

I have also been thinking about this start. As I have said, I am not much of a fog gazer but have blown the start up to 5 times its size and done an analysis. The pic is attached below. Interesting Alan that you were thinking about breadcrumbs, because that is what initially guided me as well. I also agree that there is amazing symmetry here. And I think that Alan is right that there may very well be a river to the north as well. The only thing that seems to be missing is a forest square to the SW, as there is one to the NW and one to the NE? Looking up close, the tundra seems to follow around the mountains as well. I see no clear advantage in choosing one over another, except that we know there are rivers to the west and SE, while we are unsure of the north.

Based upon all this, I would recommend that we consider sending the Scout to the western mountain as there is a forest to the NE we could chop if we need early shields or, perhaps better terrain to the south with the river. It appears to provide the greatest opportunity for choice of terrain. Based upon what we see, we can then decide if we should check out the other mountains as suggested by Misfit.

BTW Misfit - your scheme of manuever of the Scout and Worker were exactly my answer as well. Since the game is in Regent, the time to find the best settlement should be worth the effort, as long as it isn't too excessive. I think I also agree with Alan that M-B doesn't seem like the type to make this a lottery, but perhaps by making it a regent game, he is encouraging us to take our time to make sure we pick the right place to begin this journey. :coffee:

Just opened up the save and was surprised by what I saw. I have Snoopy's installed and there is more detail, as per the pic attached. There are more forests, every other square it seems. I still cannot confirm a river in the north, but I am confident that it exists. Thought this might "help" us see a little better. :mischief:

The forests are visible in the normal graphics as well, but they're not going to feed our hungry families.

It seems wasteful to sit the settler down when she could join in the hunt for home. From what we can see I would vote for a scout move S,E first. If that shows up any indication of promising landscape I would move the settler in that general direction immediately as you suggest. If the scout just sees tundra and forest then we know we probably don't want to go that way, so we might as well move the settler W and worker N immediately. That way we expose some more tiles and we are in a position to climb both the other mountains on the next turn if we need to. In two turns we see the view from all the mountains instead of taking four.

The forests are visible in the normal graphics as well, but they're not going to feed our hungry families.
Yes, that is why I was thinking of moving the Scout west first, until I saw the additional forests. We are going to need some grass to make our gardens grow.
It seems wasteful to sit the settler down when she could join in the hunt for home. From what we can see I would vote for a scout move S,E first.
After sleeping on it, I believe that we will find relatively the same start conditions no matter which direction we move. I think your scheme to move all the units is valid. Once we hear from everyone, perhaps you should load the game, move the Scout, take a screenie and post it. Of course if it is all tundra :eek: , then continue to move as you suggest until someone finds something useful???? ;)

Then we will know why it is at Regent level, so we have some chance to catch up. :mischief:

Hello team, sorry I did not post last night but I was watching the big game and then when I went online my virus warning came up. Spent an hour running through virusscan, spybot and adaware. Seems like everything is OK.

Initial thought on the Map: Cold and it reminds me of the Mickey Mouse Ice Cream Bars they sell at Disney.

I agree with Alan that we should move the settler as well.

I was thinking along the lines of this:

Turn1
Nanook W W to mt
Worker N
Settler SE (only because we see more forest this way)

Turn 2 (depending on what turn 1 reveals)
Worker N to mt
settler SE to mt
Nanook whichever way exposes more tiles (W W or S S) or to help investigate anything seen by the worker & settler

I was originally thinking about the settler doing the W W move but if we "feel" SE may be more productive lets take the settler that way.

MB posted this in the maintenance thread
Edit: I have also caught an error which has been around for nearly two weeks. The land form is 25% Land, and not 75%.

That's a pretty small map, so hopefully we should find some better tiles quickly.

EDIT: I dl'd the test file. Based on the description given on the resource files needed I thought I could run this in my normal (modded thru GOTM32) GOTM fileset, but my sheep looked a lot like goats and the fur looked like coal. So I opened the file in my SGOT04 fileset and it displayed correctly, sheep were sheep and fur was fur.

Hi Gator, Hope the big game came out "right", like the new avatar BTW.
:goodjob:

Would like to pick up on something Alan pointed out.
Recent discussions about goodie huts in the GOTM forum indicate that M-B is against random factors that can have a big influence on the game, and we can already see that he has put that into action here with the removal of goodie hut settlers.
If this is true, should we consider "putting our eggs in one basket", as it were. Trusting that M-B :mischief: would even out the starts would mean moving everything to the SE until we find someplace where we can reasonably set up house.

I think the dilema M-B is setting up for us is the trade-off of how much time we spend to find "the best spot" versus making a decision and committing ourselves to a course of action. Perhaps based upon faith in M-B's philosophy. :confused: Of course, I could be "all wet" too. :blush:

The only thing about trying to cover all the bases :scan: that worries me is splitting up our assets, requiring more time to get them back and begin being effective. So the "cost" of covering all the possibilities is great enough to put us behind in developing the only city we can build.

A thought for consideration, or maybe not?? :crazyeye:

Hi, everyone :wavey:
Conquest, just what this team was made for :cool: Let's give misfit his first sgotm award apart from spoons :mischief:

I agree with Gator that the scout should move W W. We don't know if there ar more mountains out there, but if none exists to spoil our view, N N or W W will reveal the most squares.
Leif: I think we probably should put the settler and the worker in the same basket ;), but the scout might as well explore somewhere else. So I propose W W with the scout, if nothing is found, start moving to the SE mountain with our settler/worker pair.

While I am sure you are proud of your spoons, they are only good for firewood here. Please use them to keep your mousehand warm as we search for a home away from the tundra.
I've all ready set them to torch.

The more I think of it the more I'm leaning towards moving the scout in any one of the three directions (W and SE the more likely) and if we see anything of promise send the rest of the troops that direction.

Alan - Do we know our opponents yet? When you opened the save did you check space race?

Victory Conditions - Are we going for quick or high scoring (I know those are not mutually exclusive) - The bad thing about regent is the snail pace of research by the AI. With only 25% land Domination seems like a good way to go.

(Edited my figures - I read that the land size is large not std)

Also I think that first impressions would seem that we would not need a Granary but I wonder if we shouldnt take advantage of being able to get one early because we will want to get our one native city up to max speed asap. We are also going to need quite a few workers to pave the way to the front and for setting up colonies on needed resourses.

My initial thoughts would be to pop another scout and then go granary with a chop and a rax with a chop and then start pumping out warriors or archers asap.

I know this is kind of stream of thought and rambling a bit but I want to get the ideas out there before they flee my feable head here.

I've all ready set them to torch.
Very glad to have you onboard Misfit!! :thumbsup:
:beer:
Victory Conditions - Are we going for quick or high scoring (I know those are not mutually exclusive) - The bad thing about regent is the snail pace of research by the AI. With only 25% land Domination seems like a good way to go.
Conquest is the only victory condition for the Gold!!
I know this is kind of stream of thought and rambling a bit but I want to get the ideas out there before they flee my feable head here.
That is how we work around here. Ramble to your heart's content. One of us will find some meaning and, together, we can put it all together into an action plan, hopefully! :rolleyes: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Things are starting to gel, waiting to hear more from our other teamates.

@Gator:

I agree on moves, except that I would move the settler E rather than SE, as I think it exposes more tiles. He'll be moving away from the tiles the scout can see from the western mountain, and also see past the mountain better, I suspect.

Remember it's 25% of a large map. I think that's 65 x 130 tiles. So 25% is over 2000 tiles, and is comparable to the land area on a standard map with 60% water. The effect of the large map will be to put land masses futher apart, to slow the tech pace down, and to reduce corruption in a large empire.

You need to use M-B's special resource files to see the resources correctly. They've never been published before as far as I know.

@Mistfit:

F10 - I didn't, but I have now ...

Victory condition - if we are going for gold then Conquest is the only option. That's the second C in OBCC.

Build order - I'm pleased someone's thinking about it :thumbsup:. I haven't given it any thought myself.

Thanks leif... I just noticed that the land area is Lg not std so conquest is the way to go. I've never completed a personal game with that victory condition...this should be a fun :hammer: game. Now where are those Mongol Hordes?

Edit: the cruelest trick that MB could play on us would be to have us on an island by ourselves :lol:

@Gator:
I agree on moves, except that I would move the settler E rather than SE, as I think it exposes more tiles. He'll be moving away from the tiles the scout can see from the western mountain, and also see past the mountain better, I suspect.
@Alan and Gator-Do you think it is more important to "see" everything than to keep the settler and worker together? What advantage do we gain from doing this and do we pass up any advantages?
@Mistfit:
F10 - I didn't, but I have now ...

Looks like an awful lot of civs for a smaller area. Thankfully, it is regent so the AI will be slower in expansion and the tech pace shouldn't be very fast. With all that water, we'll need a coastal location sooner or later, but we can capture that.

I'm not sure, but I *think* there's only one scientific civ among our rivals - Keltoi? That would level the playing field for us vs. PTW.

EDIT: @ leif: I'm not sure about keeping the worker and settler together. If they go off in separate directions for two turns then we know that it will take three turns to get the worker back to within one tile of the capital, give or take, depending on whether the settler continues in the initial direction and whether we need to get the worker across town. Three worker turns is not many - one road. It may give us visibility of a resource worth colonising later, but on the other hand we can explore fast if we build a second scout. :hmm:

EDIT: @ leif: I'm not sure about keeping the worker and settler together. If they go off in separate directions for two turns then we know that it will take three turns to get the worker back to within one tile of the capital, give or take, depending on whether the settler continues in the initial direction and whether we need to get the worker across town. Three worker turns is not many - one road. It may give us visibility of a resource worth colonising later, but on the other hand we can explore fast if we build a second scout. :hmm:
If we count from the time the city is founded, then you're right. If we count from the start of the game, then it is a little bit different thing. It could be 7 or 8 worker turns before he can effectively begin his mission, perhaps more. Depends how far the settler has to travel.

Of course, I could be wrong as I am assuming that the best place to settle, or one of them, will be in the SE. If it happens to be in the north, then the worker will have much done before the settler gets there. :crazyeye:

If our goal is to get up and productive ASAP, then I would suggest we keep the worker and settler together. The sequence would look like this:
Turn 1
Scout W and W. Worker and Settler E.

Turn 2
Scout either N and NE or E and NE. Worker and Settler south.

Turn 3
Scout moves onto northern mountain, then we can decide where to move the settler and worker.

We achieve the same coverage though we lose half a turn. If SE is where we decide to go, then we are ahead of the game. If not, well, we have some turns to use getting to where we need to go. :crazyeye:

Something to consider? ;)

I don't think you'd start the worker where he stands. He has to get within a tile or two of the captital to be of any use initially. Starting a road or something a long way from where we settle makes little sense. early in the game. So I believe my analysis is correct and it would be a 3 turn-ish delay in getting started. But we come to the same conclusion, as I think the extra visibility is not worth that 3 turn delay.

So I believe my analysis is correct and it would be a 3 turn-ish delay in getting started. But we come to the same conclusion, as I think the extra visibility is not worth that 3 turn delay.
I agree. I think what you're saying is that the worker and settler can move in the same direction along separate paths to reveal as many tiles as possible, I would guess to the SE. The Scout, in 2 and a half turns, can cover both the western and northern mountains. If we see something exciting, we can move the settler and worker in that direction.

Once we get settled, we will have Pottery and Bronze Working, so we can build that Granary that Misfit wants. I'd like to see the start before we decide that. I think we will have to do a lot of research ourselves, so we need to get up the tree to Literature fairly soon. We also need to conquer to grow, so Warrior Code will be important because we don't need any resources to build Archers. Who knows where the Iron and Horses will be?? :cry:

Yep! Looks like an early archer rush will be in order, to get our hands on some territory. But remember we have to wait for cities to grow before taking them (except capitals). We don't want to raze them.

Sounds good to me as well. Can someone play up until the time of seeing all of the views from the mountains and report back with some screenies to do some more strategic planning?

OK. I suggest I play one or two turns. My proposed sequence is:

Turn 1: Scout W, W to mountain.
If something special visible, stop and discuss.
Else worker N, settler E.
If anthing significant, stop and discuss.

Else:
Turn 2: settler S to mountain.
If settler sees anything special stop and discuss.
Else worker N to mountain.
Stop and discuss.

Any comments?

Take good screenies! You know how I love Dot Maps. :hmm: with the AI deciding where all of your cities will go I guess I won't be doing any of those

O.K. Let's see where this takes us? Good luck. :scan: Hope you see more than Tundra. ;)

Here you go. I didn't get past the first step in my plan before I saw a cow and grass on a river near the coast. So. Do we hotfoot it for that area?

Yup a cow is good enough for me to warrant moving in that direction.

Edit: Move them one tile to the West. Then go stand on the cow. If it's all coast we can always change our minds.

We started already :eek: - no problem I was just working up a plan to reveal the max tiles in 2 1/2 turns, leaving the worker and settler unmoved.

First move is scout W W as we did, so no loss. Here is my plan for reference. I would continue the scout moves as I diagramed but with the cow revealed I'd start the settler and worker that way ignoring my south and east moves with them.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam05_02.jpg

Turn1
Scout W W
settler S
worker E
reveals 26 tiles (highlighted in yellow)

Turn2
optimal scout move would be N N (but goal is to reach the mt by turn 3) - we gain those 3 most NW tiles if we can go N N and still get the mt on turn 3
settler E to mt
worker E

Turn 3
Scout E E to mt (or whatever it takes to get to the mt)

should have all the dotted tiles (about 59) visible before needing to move worker & settler this turn - hopefully we can find a spot and start our settler to the site in turn 3

Since we found a good spot right off the bat there's no need to send worker and settler in the other direction. I'd move them towards the cow and river. This also gives us ocean access without having to capture a city.

------------------------------------------

Here is a surprise I found when compliling the list of our enemies (confirmed by 2nd pic).


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam05_03.jpg


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam05_01.jpg

Interesting traits for Russia, and I was wrong about the Kelts? Hmm! So are we scientific? Probably not, meaning there are no scientific civs in the game.

Shall I play on then? I'll move the settler and worker to get them to the cow and coast as fast as possible, and scout as much territory as I can. I can stop in four turns or so, at the point where might be about to settle and we can talk again. At that point we need to work out what we are going to research and we'll be able to see what worker tasks to do and decide what to build.

I prefer that we debate this phase rather than just play it unilaterally, as our first/only city build is so crucial. Is that OK?

The announcement thread does say that the starting techs were altered. Traits have not been tampered with. Russia is exp. and scientific as usual.

Perhaps you can work out why Russias starting techs were altered later. :)

Playing a few more turns sounds good. Llooking at your image it looks like more grass land down there across the river. You might even go ahead and send the scout there next turn to uncover more area and go back to the tundra mountains later. We need a spot with a good mix of food and shields.

Agree with the need to discuss so pics like you did are helpful.

Did MB say anything about the tech change? Civ Assist shows us as sci & exp.

EDIT: crossed with MB's post.

Turn 0 4000 BC. Settler SW to expose another tile - nothing new. Worker W.

Turn 1 3950 BC. Scout W, W and sees a BG and game over the water on forest/tundra. Settler W. Worker W.

Turn 2 3900 BC. Scout S, S sees another game in forest/grass and furs and goodie hut. Worker W, still heading for cow. Settler W.

I went west and south with the Scout as w needed to know what we had available for the settler. I can also see a fish in the fog edge south of the Scout, but we don't know if that is fresh water. If it were then we would get 3 fpt from it in despotism, but it's still not as powerful a tile as the cow, of course.

We have a choice to make. Based on what we can see now we can get the cow, furs and grass/forest/game in our initial city radius by settling on the BG or on the forest tile SE of it. Neither of these options pops the goodie hut or reaches the game across the water after first expansion.

In either location, Moscow will support a population of 11 in despotism if we irrigate the game and cow, rising to 12 in a better government. We trade off settling a BG vs reaching the cow during the first ten turns after founding.

Thoughts?

Good job Alan!! :goodjob: That cow sure looks nice.

I think I like the forest square SE of the BG, next to the fur. After 10 turns, we'll have game with a forest that we can chop and irrigate, a cow on a river, and a fur. There are also forest tiles availble to use for shields until we get into a better government. I would really hate to waste a BG by settling on it.

BTW - I have a feeling that we started with Alphabet because we ought to hightail it to Map Making. There seems to be an awful lot of water around here. I hope we're not on an island by ourselves, but "I have a terrible feeling about this!" ;)

Edit - A second priority for research is Warrior Code and Archers! Our initial build priorities probably should include at least one more Scout, let's find out quickly where we are and what is around us. :mischief:
Another thought, I wonder if we begin with Writing and hope to pop Warrior Code from a hut?

EDIT2 - Nice analysis Gator, sorry, forgot to thank you! :blush:

I think the forest is better as well. If we move nearer the cow we swap tundra for coast. We can mine the tundra for shields, but we can't mine the sea.

Here's where we are at start of turn 5, ready to build Moscow on the forest. No one has moved yet and the worker is ready to start roading and mining the BG.

I'm going to save it here and close down for the night, and we can take a deep breath before we settle. We have a goody hut to pop in turn 6, so if we settle now we could set to zero research this turn and select CB next turn while we pop the hut. Then we can choose our real tech.

Settling the forest looks good. Is the inland lake fresh water? Extra food without a harbor.

As leif said we probably have alpha to help speed us to Map Making and allow us to meet our neighbors.

Not really sure we need a second scout until we get closer to map making, but since we can't build a worker first might as well get the scout going. I have a feeling we are isolated on a smallish island with a tundra core. That would force everyone to settle by the coast no matter which way they went. But that's only a guess.

I think build order should be scout (or warrior) in 5 turns than a worker in 5 turns as we hit size 2. Then maybe a barrack, might as well start out making veteran units.

Any thoughts on a roster? (This is our order from 4 with Mistfit in for Zamint)

Roster
AlanH - UP
Mistfit - On deck
DJMGator13 -
leif erikson -
Capt Buttkick -


BTW, here is part of the changes posted in the maintenance thread.

2. Leaders cannot hurry great wonders or small wonders. They may however be disbanded for 250 shields.
3. The Heroic Epic no longer requires a victorious Army in the field. It is now a small wonder that is available with the discovery of warrior code. This may be used to reduce the disadvantage that players attempting a non-military victory have due to not being able to rush wonders. It also means that players and teams persuing a military victory will be more likely to face AI armies.
4. Differential Naval Movement is engaged by default.
5. It is not possible to pop settlers from huts.

Yes, that's fresh water. The fish is in brine.

Roster looks fine to me as long as you're OK with me playing the rest of the first stint to 3000 BC. I started because it seemed we couldn't get very far by speculation and we needed to know more of our surroundings. We're kind-of at the "real" start now, except the AI have been growing for 5 turns :eek:

The Scout is important to hitting as many huts as we can to gain as much tech as we can, hopefully. We should also find the borders of our Icelandic existance and see if any other civs are about. If there are narrow waterways between the islands, we may need to have a Scout linger a short while in hopes of meeting someone else.

@Gator - I think your build order is a good start. I also have no problem with the roster. The maintenance thread stuff is interesting. Differential Naval movement could come in handy later, although on a hand built map, I'm sure M-B left some gaps that we'll have to suicide. The leaders being worth 250 shields is interesting as well, half a wonder?? Could come in handy, although that is an akward amount. No settlers from huts may mean more chances for tech.

@Alan - I think your plan is a good one regarding settling and the start up the tech tree. If we're alone, then straight to Maps and then Warrior Code or The Wheel or Iron Working? :crazyeye: If we have others taking up our space, then Warrior Code is a must have so we can take their capital. :mischief: And good call for a breather, I always feel better with a nice deep breath.

This terrain ought to look familiar to the Capt. Perhaps he'll recognize where his cabin is and give us a good map. He might even have some friends that will teach us Map Making and find us some horsies nearby? More likely Walrus tusks! :D

I can't see what you'd use 250 shields for early in the game. Buildings don't get that expensive until the IA. Before that we'd waste 50% or more of the shields. So for most of the game a leader is either an army or about 100 shields.

I guess you have to be right about the local geography. As you say, to even up the starting options for all teams there have to be two more equivalent locations spaced around a circle, and that doesn't leave room for an AI civ. Of course, we could have a land bridge to another continent, perhaps to the south?

In the absence of any information I'm assuming that we'll be able to trade maps and contacts in the AA. Late trading didn't happen in GOTMs until around 27, and MB says this is at the general rules state of 23. So Alphabet may also be a way to give us a push towards those two critical trading opportunities.

I can't see what you'd use 250 shields for early in the game. Buildings don't get that expensive until the IA. Before that we'd waste 50% or more of the shields. So for most of the game a leader is either an army or about 100 shields.
First of all, given our history with the RNG and the number of elite wins to gain a leader, I think we can expect none to 1. :rolleyes: The only wonders I can see worth our effort in the AA will be The Colussus and The Heroic Epic, should the opportunity present itself. Both are 200 shield wonders, iirc. Given the terrain, Armies don't seem to practical because we can't transport them in galleys anywhere, unless they are built in a captured city somewhere with a quite large island. So, leaders look to be fairly useless this time around. Not bad as we seldom see one anyway. :lol: :lol: :lol:
In the absence of any information I'm assuming that we'll be able to trade maps and contacts in the AA. Late trading didn't happen in GOTMs until around 27, and MB says this is at the general rules state of 23. So Alphabet may also be a way to give us a push towards those two critical trading opportunities.
This all the more reason to get out and see who and what we can find. :mischief: Will it require galleys or will there be a land bridge? Won't know until we check it out.

I think you should continue through 3000 BC. I've done enough typing. Thanks for letting us in on the exciting start. Now I would like to find our first friend, excuse me, I meant victim. :D

You can't use disband shields to build wonders.

Of course, you know what that means? We will get at least 10 Great Leaders!! :rolleyes: ;)

We can always convert GL to armies and sit on them until we get better troops to load in them or can get caravels so we can build 2 man armies.

I'm interested to find out who our nearest neighbor is. There are a few though AA civs in the game. Alan, Mistfit and I played a game using the 4 Mongol UU's and they are real powerful. We need to hit them early or probably wait for cossacks. Once we get cossacks we'll have the most powerful offensive unit in the game. But that is a ways off.

@Alan, by all means continue your excellent start.

We can't build armies for a while yet anyway. 4 cities per army iirc.

I don't agree on more scouts, might as well build a warrior if we agree that this looks like a small island.
I think we should pass on the granary early on as we'll only drain 1 pop for an early worker. We can go for the granary closer to pop 7.

I propose this build order:
1) Warrior
2) Worker
3) Barracks

I'm in doubt whether we should chop the game in this game. We won't be doing the settler factory anyway and while food is power in most games, I think we should concentrate on road building in this game to get our sci up. Irrigate the cow, no mining and just build roads everywhere. We'll have pop-increase in 5 turns after the cow is roaded. Go max for MM and start exploring the seas.
It may be a bit of a gamble, but it seems like we all have the same notion as to where m-b is going with this game, so the gamble may not be that big.

Also: if our scout meets another tribe, we'll have the flexibility of getting WC after Writing and doing the archer rush, with Rax in place.
Edit: large map means min research on Writing`?

Roster: I'd appreciate it if I were moved up the roster as I'm going away this weekend and won't be able to play then.

Looks good to me. I believe we will have someone on our landmass with us. I would guess someone fairly weak. Then we have to decide when we want to attack them. Wait until they have a lot of cities for us to grab or sooner before they get to strong.
As far as the roster goes Capt. you are welcome to switch spots with me I'd have no problems with that.

I don't agree on more scouts, might as well build a warrior if we agree that this looks like a small island.
I think we should pass on the granary early on as we'll only drain 1 pop for an early worker. We can go for the granary closer to pop 7.
I was hoping to wait on the warrior until we have the barracks up and running. The additional Scout may come in handy if there is a land bridge somewhere or, once we get to MM and can send them out in galleys to quickly define the islands we find and see who we're up against. I wouldn't build more than 1 more. Alan is probably past this point already and it isn't that important to me. In the end, a Warrior or a Scout are fine by me.
I'm in doubt whether we should chop the game in this game. We won't be doing the settler factory anyway and while food is power in most games, I think we should concentrate on road building in this game to get our sci up. Irrigate the cow, no mining and just build roads everywhere. We'll have pop-increase in 5 turns after the cow is roaded. Go max for MM and start exploring the seas.
It may be a bit of a gamble, but it seems like we all have the same notion as to where m-b is going with this game, so the gamble may not be that big.
I'm not so sure about all this. We are going to need the shields as well. We have only one city to start and will need to build an army of 10 to 12 Archers plus enough galleys to carry them, say 3 to 4. We will also need the gold to support the maintenance of the force and do research. I think chopping the game can wait a while, but we will gain production by chopping and mining the tundra, until we have engineering and can plant forests. I hope by then we have some other cities though.
Also: if our scout meets another tribe, we'll have the flexibility of getting WC after Writing and doing the archer rush, with Rax in place.
Edit: large map means min research on Writing`?
I agree, we should head directly for MM.

Here's my 20 turn starter:

4000 BC, Turn 0:
Scout W, nothing. Scout W to mountain sees cow on grass, BG, river, coast.
We decide to head for this area. Settler SW to uncover a tile, nothing new. Worker W towards cow.

3950 BC, Turn 1:
Scout W, W sees game across coastal water. Settler W. Worker W.

3900 BC, Turn 2:
Scout S, S sees more game, furs, a goody hut across the water, lake. Settler W. Worker W.

3850 BC, Turn 3:
Scout S sees more game, fish. SW onto promontory - confirms it's a dead end.
Settler S towards a location covering the cow, game, furs, sees hill. Worker SW towards BG.

3800 BC, Turn 4:
Settler W to forest city site. Worker SW to BG. Scout E to forest, sees goody hut on mountain.

3750 BC, Turn 5:
Settler builds Moscow, starts Warrior. Sliders to 10.0.0 on CB until we pop the goody hut next turn.
Worker starts road on BG. Scout E towards hut.

3700 BC, Turn 6:
Scout E to hut. We get .... maps! They show a similar set-up to the east - furs and game, some grass, a lake and a coast. There may be land south. Research to Writing. Sliders at 8.2.0 for 40 turns +3 gpt.

3650 BC, Turn 7:
Scout S, S towards possible land bridge.

IBT: Worker completes road.

3600 BC, Turn 8:
Scout SE sees dead end, goes E to hill. Worker N to cow. Sees more land to N.

3550 BC, Turn 9:
Scout E sees another dead end, more land to E across coastal water. worker starts road on cow tile.

IBT: Warrior completed in Moscow. Start barracks. Consider option to build Worker, but this will drop pop to 1 again. Option to build scout - not yet justified by space to explore.

3500 BC, Turn 10:
Warrior NW, NW to light up more of adjacent land mass. Scout N, E

3450 BC, Turn 11:
Warrior NE along coast. Scout W, N, sees wheat, and land to the E.

IBT: Road completed

3400 BC, Turn 12:
Worker starts irrigating cow. Scout N, E, sees more land extending E. Warrior NE on coast, sees land extending W.

3350 BC, Turn 13:
Warrior NE, sees mountainsN, W. Scout SE to hill, sees more land to E.

3300 BC, Turn 14:
Warrior NE. Scout E, S sees hut. Land continues S.

IBT: Moscow expands and grows to pop 2.

3250 BC, Turn 15:
We can work BG for 2.1.2 or game forest for 2.2.0. Decide to emphasise shields. Slider to 9.1.0. Warrior NE to mountain. Scout W, sees whale, S to hut and gets ... maps!

IBT: Worker completes irrigation.

3200 BC, Turn 16:
Worker S across river. Warrior N to mountain. Scout S, S on peninsula.

3150 BC, Turn 17:
Worker S into forest. Warrior NW, sees hut. Scout SE, sees dead end, reverses NW.

3100 BC, Turn 18:
Worker SW to game forest. Warrior W. Scout N, NW.

3050 BC, Turn 19:
Scout N, N. Worker starts road on game. Warrior pops hut ... maps! Scout N, N.

3000 BC, Turn 20:
Scout N, NW. Warrior S.

After action report:
Not much to say. We have not found any land bridges yet. I don't think we need another scout until we do. We have a barracks in 2 turns. I should probably have mined the BG before moving to road the game :blush:

Over to the next better player. I'll post a roster separately.

Here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Xteam_SG005_BC3000_01.SAV)'s the save.

And here's a screenshot:

Looking good Alan! :goodjob:

My, there sure is a lot of empty space!! :eek: Looks like a good thing we are on the road to MM, there are a bunch of civs out there, somewhere? :scan: Looks like we have a lot of roads to build. MM and Galleys will be a welcome sight as they will speed up our mobility.

I've swapped teh Captain and Mistfit as suggested.

AlanH - Just played
Capt Buttkick UP
DJMGator13 - On deck
leif erikson
Mistfit

Way to kick us off Alan.
Three things that come to mind when I look at this:
1.) that is one of the strangest land masses I've seen in Civ to date. How do we end up with so much Tundra at the equator?
2.) workers, we are going to need a bunch. If there are resourses (horses, iron) we will need colonies (and guards if other civs can reach us) I'd like to see a road network around our oddly shaped homeland to make it easier to patrol for land grabbing settlers and barbs. What is the barb level?
3.) we will not get salt until we conquer another civ that has desert (I think thats the only place salt peter shows up)

Edit: Acutally the map looks kinda like what it will be here soon. It's supposed to snow everyday from Wed through Sunday. The frozen tundra in my own back yard :D

Who says the equator is on our map?

I'm not so sure we want to discourage carpet baggers arriving on our land mass. Those are our easiest-to-develop future cities.

We should target to win before saltpeter is needed :D Knights should do it.

Good points Alan

Well done, Alan the Map Finder.

So MB did put a similar setup to the east.

Looks like we continue to explore our landmass and hope for something other thn maps from the GHs.

I'm willing to bet there is another set-up in the north as well. If a couple of interlopers will provide cities there, it would be, OH, so sweet. :mischief:

While we need some roads, I think we should remember that any roads we build will be useful to whoever else chooses to use them as long as they are not in our territory. While we need some mobility, we should be conscious of our ability to deter movement at key intersections to restrict unwanted movement.

It looks to me as though our primary source of mobility for some time will be galleys. While a rudimentary road network is in order, we don't know where the resources and colonies will be. I think we should try to connect tundra squares and avoid the excess time to build roads in forests or mountains, where that is possible, and create ever widening circles around areas of the island. This should give us both control and access. :crazyeye:

Got it.
Saltepeter can also be found in hills.
Maybe we started in the arctic and there are good, fertile lands wherever we go (once we get off this island, that is...)?

Sgotm5 3000 - 2550 B.C.

Preflight - Nothing.
Turn 1 - 2950 B.C. Scout NW Warrior W.
IBT: Moscow Rax --> Warrior.
Turn 2 - 2900 B.C. Scout N N. Warrior W.
Turn 3 - 2850 B.C. Scout E --> Pottery (obviously :cool: cause we need it for MM:)) Warrior S.
IBT: Moscow Warrior --> Granary.
Turn 4 - 2800 B.C. No lux for one turn. Warrior S. Scout NW.
Turn 5 - 2750 B.C. Scout W W. Worker NE. 10% lux. Switch Moscow to Warrior. MM Moscow for growth and gold.
IBT: Moscow Warrior --> Granary.
Turn 6 - 2710 B.C. No lux. Worker N. Warrior S. Scout N W.
Turn 7 - 2670 B.C. Scout N NW --> CB. There is indeed another very nice place to settle in the N. Worker mine. Warrior S maps. Something I've always wondered about: are there better chances of good GH results if you pop with scouts?
Turn 8 - 2630 B.C. Scout N NE. We have mapped the contours of our starting island. We are indeed alone. The race for MM is on... Disband reg Warrior.
Turn 9 - 2590 B.C. Scout NE.
Turn 10 - 2550 B.C. 10% lux.

Summary: Built Rax, 2 Warriors (and disbandonned another). We've got 1 city at pop 5.
Firaxis score is 48.
We know of no other civs.

Note to next player: If nothing is done, we should (if my calcs are correct...) have granary in 5 with growth in 7.

I suggest we finish the granary, throw in a temple and then start prebuilding for the GLight with the Colossus. I kept the scout cause I wanted to get it out on a few of the peninsulas to see what we may spot of other lands and stuff. The reg Warrior was disbandoned due to military costs and b/c we don't really need it for anything.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5_XTeam_1.jpg

Good turns Capt. New rule...Alan is not alowed to pop any more goodie huts :lol:

Edit:
Congrats on your Great GOTM results!
AlanH = 26th (global ranking #39)
Gator = 34th (global ranking #18)
Leif = 52nd (global ranking #29)

Capt. I presume that you, like me, dont have enough time to do a bunch of xTOM. I noticed on the 2 that you did play you came in 28th COTM02 and 30th on COTM04 :goodjob:

Now If I can just find more hours in the day I might get up there with you guys!

Good turn Capt.

I got it and can probably play later today. Do we want to hold off on building a military until we can at least make archers? And Wonder versus units, with only 1 city it will take some time to build up a decent size attack force.

@Mistfit - I was surprised I moved up to 18th overall, when I finished 34th in the most recent game. This was my try for a diplo game, and got beat by 100 years to the award.

I'd say that warriors are ok to build (as long as we end up with iron - MB wouldn't be that mean would he?)

I'd stay away from Wonders - Although the collossus would be nice to help with unit costs. At this point we are not sure we need the Lighthouse. There might be a perfectly good costal route to our first target. That said the extra movement bonus would be nice as well.

Well done Captain. Made up a bit for my lousy GH luck, I see :goodjob:. I think our priority is going to be to get the hell off this island if there's anything better out there. Either way we can let others settle. If the rest of the world's greener we don't want to stick around here, and if it isn't we need them to build some cities for us.

AlanH
Capt Buttkick - Just played
DJMGator13 UP
leif erikson - On deck
Mistfit

Go Gator!

Thanks for your encouragement, Mistfit. I must say I didn't feel I put up a very good show in that game. I think I could have finished a good 10 turns earlier just by playing while I was awake :eek:

Good job Capt. :goodjob:

Time to decide whether any of the wonders are worth the investment in shields they will require. The Temple provides 1 happy citizen for the cost of 1 maintenance. The lux slider provides the same, 1 happy for 1 gold. Do we need to build a temple? Unless we are looking for some extra culture? ;)

We are at our limit of MP's. Thought I read something about some road work needing to be done? Shouldn't we produce a worker next?

How long do we want to hang onto our Scout? Do you think it would be helpful to have the 2 movement to look for anyone else that may try to come and visit us? If not, then we should probably disband him and save some gold. (I know I pushed Scouts earlier, but you guys may have convinced me we don't need them.)

We have 16 turns left in Writing and then MM. CivAssist says MM will cost us 288 beakers. I'm not sure we can do that much faster then 40 turns, I'd guess 30 at best. So, that gives us 46 to 56 turns before Galleys. Also, IW's cost is 144 and WC is 72.

The Colossus costs 200 shields to build, The Great Lighthouse 400. We are producing 7 SPT now and I think we can easily get it to 10 and maybe 12. So, it is 20 turns to Colossus and 36 to 40 to TGL. TGL would, I think, be most helpful as it looks like we are going to be seafaring in this game. I suggest we decide if either is worth it.

On military, I am reluctant to build too many warriors. First, they will cost us maintenance and, second, we don't know where the iron is or how quickly we can get Iron Working. Same goes for horses and HBR, not too much grass around.

I recommend we consider using the time to shoot for TGL and building roads. Perhaps we can shave some time off of MM through fasrer research, but we'll have to keep a smaller military to keep GPT up for research.

What do you all think? :crazyeye:

EDIT - Thanks for the encouragement Misfit. I'm afraid I'm in a rut lately. The only thing that keeps me up in the GPR is persistance. The way somne of the new players have been doing, I won't last there very long, but I'm trying!! :D

We don't know what military builds will be upgradable yet, and building military will cost us maintenance without contributing for a while.

I think we should get our infrastructure as solid as possible - mine and road for max shields and gold, get to Writing and MM as fast as we can, and meanwhile keep a look out for passing land or sea units to hail. Once we have a good shield rate we can build warriors, archers or horses fast when we need to. Do we need another worker or two? With a granary we're going to grow fast and have happiness issues. We *could* go for the Colossus to boost our research rate?

Crossed with you ALan. Looks like we're thinking along the same lines.

The Colossus would be fine with me as well. Certainly we need the gold.

Crossed with you ALan. Looks like we're thinking along the same lines. That worked! At least I didn't end up with a double post :D

The Colossus would be fine with me as well. Certainly we need the gold.Colossus would be finished faster and be more certainly useful. I feel we need to be reasonably flexible until we know what's out there, so a shorter build time will leave us with more options.

If we are not going to build any military units right now I suggest keeping the scout to keep a look out for passing ships. I would also suggest keeping him to be put on our first galley to to inland exploration of the new lands we find.

I like the Colosus for the $.

I do think we need at least 1 or two more workers to road the heck out of our island.

Thanks all :)
I think we're getting pretty close to my initial thoughts, here :cool:


1. No more military b/c of the costs (and we don't really need them yet).

2. I don't think we need more workers either. After our eq finishes mining, he'll go to the undeveloped grass by the river and improve that. After that growth will be slower at size 6 and we've only got roads to do anyway.

3. I've got no probs with going for Colossus instead of GLight. We might be able to get GLight afterwards as I'm pretty sure the Colossus build won't cascade the AI to GLight.

4. Keep the scout for getting out on the peninsulas to see as much as possible.

5. Temple: The temple postpones the need for going to 20% lux, which makes 3 happy faces, netting us one gold. If we want the Colossus, we better get that first :thumbsup:

Good turns Capt. New rule...Alan is not alowed to pop any more goodie huts :lol:
:lol: Well, go read my Cotm Portugal GH results in the first spoiler :(

Edit:
Congrats on your Great GOTM results!
AlanH = 26th (global ranking #39)
Gator = 34th (global ranking #18)
Leif = 52nd (global ranking #29)

Capt. I presume that you, like me, dont have enough time to do a bunch of xTOM. I noticed on the 2 that you did play you came in 28th COTM02 and 30th on COTM04 :goodjob:

Now If I can just find more hours in the day I might get up there with you guys!

Well, it's only partly that I don't have the time. More often: if I get off to a poor start, I'm still in the learning prosess, so I often reload and replay the start to learn more, which obviously disqualifies me for submition in gotms.

I've checked out my Cotm3 QSC results though, which would have had me finish way up on the QSC rank, then I reloaded and ended up with a worse result :rolleyes: :lol:
At least I learnt that the most important trick to quell AI research on arch maps is to keep all civs bankrupt, no matter what. If you get 40 gold for pottery from an AI civ and its neighbour has it, do the trade.

I guess that we are at our unit limit so adding a worker will cost 1gpt so I guess we can wait until we see a resourse that we need to build our next worker.

Note that four of the roads will take 7 worker turns each as they are in forest. Also, to reach a full pop of 12 we need to chop the game and irrigate it. Two of the 12 citizens will need to work mined tundra. We have at least 80 worker turns to fully develop Moscow without building any external access roads. I think we should build a couple more workers now, while we can replace them quickly in a couple of turns each. They'll help to keep on top of the tasks, and rejoin Moscow later as we work more 1fpt tiles and the growth rate slows. Effectively, we'll have built some pop at 10 fpt instead of 20 and put it to good use in the meanwhile.

I'm really waffle'ing on this one. You put up a good argument on the need for more workers.

@Capt. Buttkick- what team is the photo in your Av from?

Please put me in the more workers column as well. I noticed when looking at the save that we haven't roaded the fur yet, that takes priority over a temple build I would think.

I also worked out a road map, so to speak, that I think will work, although it will require a lot of worker turns and we should discuss whether it is worth the cost in time, effort and maintenance for the extra workers.

EDIT - I just realized that I messed up. The roads leading out of Moscow should be along the river to take advantage of the gold bonus, not away from the river as drawn. Too much :beer: with lunch. :blush:

So it sounds like our build order is granary (in 6), then set to worker, then temple (to take advantage of the game chop) then Colossus.

Worker priorities is hook up furs, then chop & irr game.

I'll probably play in a few hours.

What are the roads for, leif?

I'd get two or three workers out before starting Colossus. Once we start and finish that workers will cost 20 food to replace. As soon as the granary's finished they'll only cost 10. I tried to explain that this way we are putting future citizens in storeage at 10 food each, and we'll be able to rejoin them later, after they've done whatever we need done - including leif's roads if they are indeed needed.

What are the roads for, leif?
Earlier, I thought we were discussing building roads around our island to give us the ability to move quickly towards any potential new city that someone might build for us or more quickly obtain resources though colonies, once we discover or trade for the tech. It would require less time to get to those techs with something in place?

I don't think a general road system should be attempted until Moscow is up and running effectively. Once that is completed and we have a few workers with nothing to do, then we can start on an island wide sysytem.

I must have missed that discussion, but, sorry, I disagree. There must be over 100 worker turns in that network, so it's going to take a while to build. IMHO, we'll do much better to keep a small band of workers available ready to road to resources as they appear. If we do build it, and barb horses start raging or an AI decides to take a crack at us, we'll make ourselves sitting ducks. We'll only have one city for them to focus on and they'll have movement of 6 on our open roads. I remember working quite hard during one turn set in SGOTM4, pillaging the roads north of Persepolis precisely in order to reduce the mobility of the barbs.

That's OK by me. I was trying to design a system that would give us the greatest mobility while limiting the ability of Barbs and the other civs to use it through intersections that we could easily control. What I feared might happen is what you suggested, a network that would be done without thought given to defense. :mischief:

The only problem I see with having workers ready to go after resources is that it could impose a significant delay in obtaining them, depending upon where they are located, of course. The issue of getting ot our enemy is really not a great problem becuase theyu have to grow enough to *not* auto-raze anyway. As long as we know they are there. :D

Hmm. Well, the intersections are in open terrain, and we have no idea what we're going to be able to defend them with. Warriors will not do well against barb horses on open tundra. If our workers have nothing else to do then perhaps a road towards each of the two city locations will reduce time to market for a resource or an AI city, but I don't think we should build extra workers specially to undertake a major road net on spec.

The intersections could be moved to mountains, which I considered, but didn't want to spend additional worker turns roading. Defensively, it makes sense to do that. If we decide to develop it, then we can make any mods we need. The map was made to stimulate discussion on the merits of the undertaking. I expected the specifics to change! ;)

Turn 1 - 2510BC
Scout E

Turn 2 - 2470BC
Scout S E

Turn 3 - 2430BC
worker SE SE to furs / Scout NW

Turn 4 - 2390BC
worker roads furs (6 turns) / Scout N

Turn 5 - 2350BC
Moscow granary => worker
Scout N N sees land N of us

Turn 6 - 2310BC
Scout S S

Turn 7 - 2270BC
Moscow worker => Temple (in 8 turns)
worker SE to furs / Scout S

IBT - Yikes :eek: - there be barbs on this landmass - Bwarrior approaches from the SW

Turn 8 - 2230BC
Scout S sees Bcamp moves S

Turn 9 - 2190BC
Furs are hooked up
wake one of our warriors send him E / both workers W / Scout S SE

Turn 10 - 2150BC
Scout SW SW towards our warrior who moves NE / worker road the tundra forest on way to game

Firaxis Score 55

Notes to next player
1) There is a roaming Bwarrior N of our scout
2) Warrior on way to Bcamp
3) I went with temple over 3rd worker - to keep us at size 5

Thanks for finding the Barb Camp for me Gator! :goodjob: Looked at the save and it looks good.

This is a got it! Plan to play tomorrow evening as it is getting late here.

A couple of questions.
IBT - Yikes - there be barbs on this landmass - Bwarrior approaches from the SW
1. Did you mean from the SW of Moscow? Do you think there are any more Barbs west of Moscow that I should be looking for?

2. Just checked the save and see a Temple in the queue. We rarely ever build Temples. That doesn't mean we shouldn't, in this case perhaps we should. When I checked the lux slider, it costs us 1 GPT to move it up each 10% increment. The Temple will always cost us 1 GPT maintenance. Isn't this a wash and shouldn't we change the build to Colossus?

3. Our 2 workers are currently roading the forest square to the SW of Moscow and will finish in 3 turns. The Temple, should we keep it, finishes in 5 turns. The next build should be Colossus, unless we lose a warrior to the Barbs, this means the forest shouldn't be chopped as we will lose the 10 shields. Is there something else we should build for the shields? It looks to me like we should road the game square and wait on the chop.

Thanks. :D

My reverse order thoughts :crazyeye:

3. Not sure that we need another worker before the Colossus. As you say we can't use the chop towards a wonder and we are currently getting an extra shield leaving it as is.

2. I did the temple to allow us to go for Colossus with minimal lux rate.

1. I ran into the Barb here. The barb moved NE out of the camp, which was SW of our scout's position.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam05_04.jpg

Nobody's listening! :gripe:

If we build workers now they cost 10 food to replace. We can use them to increase our gold and shield capability fast while we build the Colossus. Then we can rejoin them to the city as it gets bigger, takes 20 food to build new citizens, and uses more 1fpt tiles so its growth slows down.

A temple will be beneficial when we get our gpt up. Then 10% on the lux slider will be 2 gpt. It';s a pity the forest chop didn't go into the temple.

The barb's probably camped on that western peninsula.

I think Alan made a good point on more workers for readding to Moscow once we've improved the squares we need. Can we switch our build to a spear without substantial shield loss? It might come in handy against the barbs. After that, depending on worker turns left, we can do another worker first or directly set up the temple build again. Anyway, the forest shields should go there.

We might need to slow down on playing speed cause these days I'm not online as much as I use to and if I was given the time to change my mind w/r to worker builds, maybe that would have swung the vote?

Alan: while I agree that the Temple isn't exactly necassary (my initial reason for making the build, was to postpone the GLight prebuild until we were sure we had MM), it may not be a bad choice either, and it sure beats building military that we won't need for another 1000 years.
The temple will save us money at size 7: 20% lux = 15 gold *.2 = 3 gpt while we only need 2 gpt.
With ~ 15 gpt the lux increase from pushing the slider one notch higher will be 1-2-1-2-1..., as opposed to always 1 gpt as you seem to suggest.

Misfit: The ava kicker is Robert Pires of France playing against (I think) Cameroon.

Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads :D
I'll buy a round :beer: for the person to first name the movie that quote is from ;)

Let's look at the map and try to envision what was going through MB's head while making this map and placing resourses.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Dottie.JPG
First off we have 3 areas to settle in they are all similar but not exact.
As far as an initial settlement area the Area #2 kinda got the short end of the stick with less land and a wheat instead of a cow. Why?
My theory is it's because that is where our resourses are going to be (iron and horses) making up for the lack of the cow.
I've put stars on the areas I feel are likely to have Iron. I doubt that MB would put it on one of the three interior mountains as it would have given a considerable bonus for the teams settling closest to that mountain.

If it ends up in the NW on that star or even in the cluster to the a bit closer to us it is at least 6 tiles away from us an we will have to at minimum road the one mountain.

If it's in the East it will be 7 or 8 tiles away with the 1 mountain to road.

Horses typically in my experiance end up on hills. I put elephants (I couldn't find a horse logo this morning :( ) on what I consider to be likely areas for the horses to show up in. The likely areas for them to show up in are even further away.

All of that being said I agree we will need workers. I actually believe we will need more worker than what you all are thinking because remember we will loose that worker to make the colony. we will also need MP's on the colony to keep the barbs away from it.

Send that :beer: my way it's from: Back to the Future :D.

Alan: while I agree that the Temple isn't exactly necassary ... That's not what I said. I agree a temple will save us money when we get our gpt up, and I was only regretting that we didn't time the forest chop to help build it. Highest priority is to get our spt up, then we can afford these things and build them fast, and our gpt up so that we are in good shape to trade when we meet people.


Back to the Future. Aaarrgh! Mistfit got there first :cry:

My guess is there'll be more than one of any resource that mad-bax has been generous enough to throw our way - maybe even on in each settle location. I think the wheat may be just a slight variation to make it interesting.

@Gator - Thanks for the map and clarification. I am convinced that there is only 1 Barb Camp at the present time, but another could show up at any time.

@Misfit - interesting map and the assumptions you used to make it. When all is said and doine, it will be fun to go back and compare. I tend to think that, based on the way our island is laid out, that resources will either be centrally located or there will be a set for each settlement location. I hope we find out soon, but it won't be until we get to MM and get some galleys out.


@Alan - I have been listening, just haven't been vocal about it. You concept is, as always, logical.

The Temple build now has 24 shields in the box. The only thing we can switch to is Colossus without loss of shields. This doesn't sound like a good idea. Once the Temple completes then, another worker and then Colossus sounds like what we're thinking. The workers should road the game, the forest SE of the furs, road and mine the grass to the west and then up the riverbank going NE and mining those squares as well. That won't be finished until after I'm done. That leaves more time for discussion concerning roads outside our enclave. Once Writing is done, were on to MM, and I assume we're going for fastest speed and not concerned about building more gold for trade, when that happens. So, I will go to minus GPT in research if it speeds things up?

I guess I should have stated a more detailed reason for the temple over another worker. (Don't take this as being defensive. Questions and discussions are good :) )

When I started the temple it was going to take us 4 turns to grow to size 6 and 8 turn to build the temple. So I decided against building back to back workers and dropping us to size 4, figuring we could build the next worker after the temple completes.

We have 24 shields in the box so we would waste some to make a switch to anything other than the Colossus. The temple will complete in 4 turns and not 5 because of the growth next turn. If we mm we can time the Temple completion to coincide with our growth to size 7. Then at 10spt we can build the next worker in 1 turn versus the 2 turns it would have taken had I built it before the temple.

The workers just started roading in turn 10 so they could be changed without much loss. But I did not want to use the chop to speed up a worker build and if I had chopped the fur tile the chop would have completed the same turn as the temple thus wasting the chop.

That being said, I like Alan's idea of storing future 20 food growth in 10 food workers.

EDIT: crossed with leif - BTW, the forest game is already roaded.

EDIT: crossed with leif - BTW, the forest game is already roaded.
Thanks, I missed that somehow. :blush: ;) :crazyeye:

Have a good holiday all!

I will be away from the Puter until sunday - Skip or wait at your discression.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

Like Mistfit I'll be gone until probably Saturday evening.

And a Happy Thanksgiving from here also. I've posted the log now as I will be gone from Thursday morning until Friday evening. OK, here is comes:

Turn 40 – 2150 BC
Pre-flight.
Debated MM by moving the citizen from the fresh water to a forest square for shields, but then we lose 2 GPT, so I decide to leave it as is.
Everything else looks good so, press enter.

IBT
Zzzz

Turn 41 – 2110 BC
Warrior north.
Scout NE, sees Barb Warrior on hill to the north, moves east.
Moscow grows to size 6, lux slider to 20%.

IBT
Barb Warrior comes after Scout.

Turn 42 – 2070 BC
Scout SE and S onto mountain. Warrior N.

IBT
A second Barb Warrior now appears from the NE of the Scout’s position. Have to look for another barb Camp.

Turn 43 – 2030 BC
Scout remains on the mountain.
Warrior N, moves next to a Barb Warrior.
Workers E and SE.

IBT
Warrior attacked by Barb Warrior. Barb dies and we lose 1 HP.
2 Barb Warriors converge on our Scout’s position.
Moscow Temple – worker.

Turn 44 – 1990 BC
Change lux slider to 10%.
Workers road.
Scout E and E.
Warrior (3/4) attacks barb Warrior (2/2) and we win without loss.

IBT
Barb Warriors pursue Scout.
The Barb Camp grew a Warrior.
Moscow Worker – Colossus, due in 25 turns.

Turn 45 - 1950 BC
Change lux slider to 0%, Moscow grows again next turn.
New Worker NW and NW.
Our Warrior (3/4) attacks Barb Camp and defeats a Barb Warrior, losing another HP.
Scout NW, sees another Barb Warrior, and N.

IBT
The Barb Warriors (3) are trying to surround our Scout.
We discover Writing. Set research to 80%, Map Making due in 29 turns and our income drops to –2 GPT.

Turn 46 – 1910 BC
Moscow grows to size 6, change lux slider to 10%, now we are losing 3 GPT. Colossus in 19 turns, MM in 29.
Scout N and W, doesn’t find the Barb Camp where I thought it might be? :confused:
Warrior fortifies to heal.
Worker roads.

IBT
Scout is left alone, no Barbs in sight for now.

Turn 47 – 1870 BC
Scout W and NW onto mountain.
Worker N.
EqWorker NW and N.

IBT
A Barb Warrior nears Moscow, 3 squares east.

Turn 48 – 1930 BC
EqWorker roads.
Worker roads.
Warrior attacks Barb Camp and earns 25 gold while losing 2 HP. :p
Scout S and SW.

IBT
Barb Warrior moves into our city limits E and SE of Moscow.
We get our first palace addition. :cool:

Turn 49 – 1790 BC
Worker on grass mines.
Scout S and SW.
Warrior (2/4) fortifies to heal.
Wake Warrior (4/4) in Moscow, move SE and attacks Barb Warrior to the east. Defeat him without loss.
Adjust lux slider to 20%, losing 5 GPT.

IBT
See another Barb coming in from the west of the northern warrior, the one that defeated the Barb Camp.
I am beginning to think the barb settling is raging? :eek:

Turn 50 – 1750 BC
Southern Warrior moves east, back towards Moscow.
Scout E and E onto mountain, there is a Barb Warrior adjacent. :cry:

After Action Report
I’m afraid I’ve lost our Scout as he is on a mountain with a Barb Warrior next to him, sorry.

Moscow will grow next turn. Map Making is due in 25 turns, The Colossus is due in 15 turns and we are losing 5 GPT with research at 80% and lux set at 20%. As the warrior can return to Moscow next turn, lux slider can probably stay at 20%.

Looks like we will need to start building an Army soon as there are some Barbs somewhere in the east and also north and/or west of Moscow. The areas I where suspect the Barb Camps are located are circled in red. Good luck to whoever is next, Alan?

<< THE SAVE >> (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Xteam_SG005_BC1750_01.SAV)

Good work Leif. The gpt deficit will reduce next turn if we lose the scout.

As Mistfit and the rest of America are Thanksgiving - have fun, guys [party] - we skip to Europe. Looks like that swap was a bad deal, Mistfit :(

AlanH UP
Capt Buttkick - On deck
DJMGator13
leif erikson - Just played
Mistfit - Skipped

Guess I'm UP. I'll get it as soon as I've posted my GOTM 37 spoiler and QSC.

Well done, leif and happy Thanksgiving to everyone :D

Never mind about loosing out to Misfit, Alan. Thanks for playing and I'll buy a virtual round of :beer: to all team members ;)

Sorry for stealing your turns, Misfit :(

I'll buy a virtual round of :beer: to all team members ;)
Gulp, Gulp!! It sure tasted good! :thanx:

Now for a virtual helping of turkey, mashed potatoes w/gravy, squash and a nice big piece of the apple pie I just took out of the oven :drool:, my wife made me do it, honest! That's why I had to get my turns in before tonight. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Good luck Alan. There are Barbs about. I hope you can get The Colossus done before you have to build more military.

Should you have any questions, I will check in tomorrow morning before I have to depart for my in-laws house. No computer there. :cry:

Turn 40 - 1750 BC Preflight. No changes. Moscow -> pop 7 next turn, building Colossus eta 15 turns will reduce.
Scout on central mountain will die. 3/4 warrior healing in north with an approaching barb.
Slider 0.8.2 -5 gpt.

IBT - Scout dies, vet warrior heals, Moscow ->pop 7. Workers complete tundra roads.

Turn 41 - 1725 BC. N Warrior moves SE away from barb to lure him off the mountain. Workers towards grass to help complete mine. S Warrior into Moscow. Slider to 1.8.1 -3gpt. Mapmaking due in 20 turns

IBT - Barb appears from SE. Northern barb moves off mountain.

Turn 42 - 1700 BC. N Warrior kills barb -1hp, no promo. Workers join on grass mine to complete next turn.
MM Moscow to use grass instead of lake to capture mine shield in the interturn.

IBT SE barb approaches Moscow, in forest SE, SE. Two more barbs appear from E. Workers complete mine.

Turn 43 - 1675 BC. Workers move away from barbs to road southern tundra. N Warrior W to mountain, sees barb camp on tundra with one barb warrior. Warrior moves out of Moscow and fortifies to defend furs.
Slider 0.8.2 -4gpt.

IBT - Barb moves N out of forest, other two barbs approach.

Turn 44 - 1650 BC. Workers build road on southern tundra. N Warrior fortifies to heal for a turn before hitting the barb camp. S Warrior kills barb - no damage. He is now between the two NE barbs and Moscow.

IBT - Two barbs attack S Warrior. First one promotes him to 4/5. Second one dies without inflicting further damage. N Warrior heals.

Turn 45 - 1625 BC. S Warrior back to Moscow. Workers to river tundra to mine. N Warrior moves N on mountains towards barb camp. Slider 1.8.1 -3 gpt.

Turn 46 - 1600 BC. N Warrior kills barb camp for 25 gold. No damage, no promo. Workers start mine.

Turn 47 - 1575 BC. N Warrior E onto mountain.

IBT - Workers complete mine.

Turn 48 - 1550 BC. N Warrior S on mountain. Workers to second river tundra to mine.

Turn 49 - 1525 BC. N Warrior SE. Workers start mine. MM Moscow for higher shields, lower food, lower gold to get Colussus finished. Slider 0.8.2

Turn 50 - 1500 BC. N Warrior S. Workers continue mine.

After action report Barbs were around but not a problem in this set. Colossus will complete in 3 turns. Workers wll complete the second tundra mine next turn. We can chop the game forest, but we may not have anything to use the shields for.

Score 70. The save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Xteam_SG005_BC1500_01.SAV). The city:

[AlanH - Just played
Capt Buttkick UP - but no need to hurry because ...
DJMGator13 - On deck, eating turkey
leif erikson - also eating turkey
Mistfit - Skipped - also eating turkey

[AlanH - Just played
Capt Buttkick UP - but no need to hurry because ...
DJMGator13 - On deck, eating turkey
leif erikson - also eating turkey
Mistfit - Skipped - also eating turkey
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Nice set Alan! :goodjob: Very happy to see all those Barbs didn't get any RNG luck! :rolleyes: You scared me for a moment when I read your turn log.
Moscow -> pop 7 next turn, building **Colosseum** eta 15 turns will reduce.

[offtopic]
Stuffed like a turkey I be, but happy as a clam. You have to enjoy a holiday where the only objective is to eat as much as you like of anything that you like. :band:

:lol: leif. Lots of people celebrate christmas that way here in Norway. Which I've always found to be a pity. But then again, we don't celebrate thanksgiving.

Nice set, Alan :goodjob:
You should remake the roster and dub it rooster :p

If I don't get to play it today, I probably won't get to play until sunday, b/c like I said earlier I have plans for the weekend. We've played a lot faster than I'd think so far.

No problem, turns don't take long with only one city to build and five units to manage. It also looks like there will be a slight delay in the PtW teams' activity, as there's a bug in their game that needs to be squashed.

:lol: leif. Lots of people celebrate christmas that way here in Norway. Which I've always found to be a pity. But then again, we don't celebrate thanksgiving.
I'll be there for Christmas! ;) Well, we should be more aware of the the real reason for Thanksgiving. People aren't always and don't realize how fortunate we are, but that is way out on another topic. :dubious:
We've played a lot faster than I'd think so far.
Well, with only one city to care for and MM, no other cities to build, no other civs to trade with, a few Barbs running around and no Gold left to build a huge military, there isn't a lot to do, yet. I think things will get a little more complicated after we discover Map Making. :coffee:

As we approach that time, we might think about a galley pre-build. Maybe we should use the forest chop towards a Harbor, after we get 2 or 3 galleys out searching the world, if we can wait that long. :bounce:

Good luck Capt. Keep those Barbs at bay.. :lol: :lol:

I made it back from my Grandparents with some leftover turkey and the end of her homemade Key Lime Pie.

No need to rush Capt, I've got some continuing education credits to finish up this weekend.

Back and Bloated. Thanks for putting up with the me being AWOL. I'll pick it back up when it comes around to me. I still have a houseful of company. I don't know what I was thinking when I put the puter in the guest room.

Glad to see that Thanksgiving seems to be a hit and that everyone made their travels safely. Now that the North American contingent is fat, dumb and happy :p , we are ready to deal with whatever we find. :rolleyes:

Good luck Capt., lets get to Map Making and do some exploring!! :cool:

Sorry I kept you waiting (wife had chores for me yesterday...), but here it is:

Sgotm5 1500 - 1250 B.C.

Preflight - Nothing.
Turn 1 - 1475 B.C. Workers N. Warrior S. I wanted to keep our warriors close to home as long as we don't have better protection than we do (although that elite warrior looks impressive :goodjob: ).
Turn 2 - 1450 B.C. Workers road. Warrior S. MM Moscow and it can sustain 80% sci, 10% gold (although not 90% sci). We earn 1 gold from that ;)
Then finally we can breath free, no matter what the barbs do, they won't get to our wonder build :)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5_XTeam_2.jpg

IBT: Moscow: Colossus --> Spearman (I know, I hardly ever build them either, but I wanted just two, one to guard us from barbs and the other to put in the first invasion force, to defend our archer/horse stack when we make our first landfall. It also fits well with swhields/growth.
Turn 3 - 1425 B.C. Workers mine. Warrior NE. We can now go to 90% sci, 10% lux for MM in 7 turns. I'll MM Moscow next few turns for rapid growth + spear in 2.
IBT: 3 barbs arrive in the north, 2 from E and 1 from NW.
Turn 4 - 1400 B.C. Fortify warrior on mountain. MM Moscow.
IBT: Moscow Spear --> Spear.
Turn 5 - 1375 B.C. Spear E NE. Workers SE. MM Moscow.
IBT: 3 barb wars attack our vet war fortified on the mountain, we take 1 HP damage and promotes.
Turn 6 - 1350 B.C. Workers road. Spear N, Warrior on mountain moves N.
IBT: Moscow Spear --> Settler (prebuild for galley).
Turn 7 - 1325 B.C. Both Spear fortify. Workers S SW SE. Warrior N.
Turn 8 - 1300 B.C. Warrior N. Workers road. 80% sci for MM next turn.
IBT: Our spear on mountain is attacked by a barb, no promo. MM --> The Wheel. I started TW cause it will allow us to build a few chariots and upgrade to horses, hopefully we can trade for WC. Our experience from previous Sgotms is that we seem to do alright once we get fast units.
Turn 9 - 1275 B.C. Switch Moscow to Galley. Warrior W.
IBT: Moscow Galley --> Harbor.
Turn 10 - 1250 B.C. Galley W SW. Warrior N (looks like I made the left turn too early :lol:

Summary: Built 2 Spears and 1 Galley Finished Mapmaking. We've got 1 city at pop 8.
Firaxis score is 79.
We know of no other civs.

Well played, Captain. I assume the Colossus had the desired effect on our research rate, as you brought Mapmaking in early :thumbsup: I agree we needed to keep the warriors near to home while we don't have many. Maybe now that we have spears to protect our investment they can go out and grab a barb camp or two for the 25 gold contributions to our budget.

Here's the roster. Hopefully we are all back from our festivities and rarin' to go?

AlanH
Capt Buttkick - Just played
DJMGator13 UP
leif erikson - On deck
Mistfit - Still waiting for his first touch

Good turns Capt. that colossus looks like it should be a nice shot in the arm for our economy.

Are we building 2 galleys one north one south or more? Eventually we will need a bunch to transport troops but it will be a fine line as to which gets built 1st. Troops or Transport.

At some point we might need to turn down research to pay for our first war as we pump out a bunch of units.

MM --> The Wheel. I started TW cause it will allow us to build a few chariots and upgrade to horses, hopefully we can trade for WC. Our experience from previous Sgotms is that we seem to do alright once we get fast units.
Hi Capt.! Nice to know that while I was feasting, the wife put you on hard labor. But don't worry, my turn is coming! :cry:

Good job, although I almost passed out when I read about those Spears. ;) However, you had a good reason to build them :goodjob: , so don't mind me. :lol:

I took a look at the save and research is set to Warrior Code, not The Wheel? :confused: Did you decide to change it?

I agree we needed to keep the warriors near to home while we don't have many. Maybe now that we have spears to protect our investment they can go out and grab a barb camp or two for the 25 gold contributions to our budget.
While I know that it may be a ways off, if the barbs are set to raging we could have a problem later on. The land area is quite large and there could be all sorts of camps around. Perhaps we should think about planning out how we might be able to play that? We can't build a vacant city to absorb the damage in this game and a slew of horsman attacking Moscow would be ugly. :eek: Besides, We could be at war with some other civs while we are trying to defend ourselves at home. :wallbash:

@Misfit-Good question about galleys. I think we need at least 2, one going east and one west. Perhaps we should think about 4 as the sooner we meet the other civs, the better off we will be.

I am willing to change places in the roster with Misfit in order to give him a go as soon as possible. ;)

If we can spend our money before the barbs hit, and don't have a lot of shields in store the worst they can do is to kill citizens. Either we live with it, or we have to build some warriors or spears to put on mountains near their camps as cannon fodder to soak up their attacks before they reach the city. If we can get some swords and/or horses before the era ends we could try surrounding the camps at distance three and kill barb horses as they emerge, to promote some elites.

I am willing to change places in the roster with Misfit in order to give him a go as soon as possible.Turns don't take long at the moment. I suggest we leave the roster as is unless you are likely to delay proceedings.

I am willing to change places in the roster with Misfit in order to give him a go as soon as possible
I appreciate the offer. If it works out better that way great. If not I will play when my turn comes.

Edit: Personally I think that the biggest problem we will have from the barbs will be piliaging our colonies and roads to the colonies.

Now that we have Map Making, hopefully we can meet the neighbors and invite them to come settle our land.

I should be able to play tonight or tomorrow.

If we can spend our money before the barbs hit, and don't have a lot of shields in store the worst they can do is to kill citizens. Either we live with it, or we have to build some warriors or spears to put on mountains near their camps as cannon fodder to soak up their attacks before they reach the city. If we can get some swords and/or horses before the era ends we could try surrounding the camps at distance three and kill barb horses as they emerge, to promote some elites.

Your idea about the Swords and Horses would be nice. :goodjob: Hopefully we can trade for the techs, find the resourses, claim them and get them connected to Moscow. It would be nice to attack some other civ with elite horsemen! :mischief: Perhaps the Barbs can be used to our advantage. As we build our armies, we could use the barb camps as a training gound to both gain elites and make some gold. As The Capt. says, I think we like fast units the best when we can get them.

As for taking the risk, I think we could lose our Granary, Temple and Barracks. The pop hit would hurt production for a while as well. If we can fidn a way to keep cycling units into Barb areas and continue to attack their camps, that would, hopefully, minimize their masses later. I think we should have some time yet before this becomes an imminent danger.

For me, this brings us back to the subject of roads. :rolleyes: I continue to agree that we shouldn't lay out a massive effort to build a huge road network. OTOH, we could use roads to channel the barbs into kills zones, to engage them where we want them to be, and use that as a training ground for our troops. I think the concept would be similar to what we did in SGOTM03 as the Romans in the valley of death, although we didn't need roads to bring the enemy civ units into the area.

No problem on the roster changes. :D

By all means work out a plan for your road network. It may be best to make the roads short-ish. The barbs will know the quickest route to our city, so if that's by road they'll come in that way even if they have to travel over unroaded terrain first.

I've not looked at the save file in a while but have we improved enough tiles for our current 8 citizens and our future 4? If that is done I see no reason not to road tiles towards our expected resourse locations.

I see no reason not to road tiles towards our expected resourse locations.Except, with all respect to anyone's ability to read the mind of mad-bax, we don't know where they are going to be. They may be within our borders, and we could simply be roading up routes for attackers - barbs or AI. Workers cost 1gpt each, so another option is to rejoin them to Moscow, saving 1gpt each and growing the city to increase its productivity. We can always rebuild them again later as and when we need colonies or roads. I'm not making this recommendation, BTW, I'm just trying to make sure we discuss the options.

I'm not sure what to think of your comments. I guess the only thing I can go off of is what I'd do if it were my own game playing alone. If that were the case I'd get our only city up to speed making sure that the 12 best tiles were worked to their fullest first then proceed to make roads to the north and the east to help future development. You had mentioned earlier that we should consider making workers while they cost fewer food to produce (while the city was under size 6) If we add the workers back in now only to rip them back out again now that we are above size 6 I'd think would be a waste of production.

I'll go with what ever the team decides but my vote goes towards roading to the north and the east once our 12 best spots are improved to their fullest within our 21 tile capital.

I think we should get Moscow to size 9 with a harbour, join workers and then build one or possibly two workers when/if we need it, most importantly, MM the city so we only take out the shields we need and focus on growth. Then at size 12 with a full granary, we can build a worker in one turn w/o citizen loss.

@ leif: :( Sorry, I think I did the same thing once in a QSC as well. I debate whether I should go with the one tech or the other, decide on one and then forget to make the switch. If I could only learn that I need to know what tech to go for before the pop-up asking for next research rears its ugly head :(
Oh, well. If we don't find other civs in the next couple of turns, we'd probably go through the same 3 techs anyway.

Build: I'd say galleys until we get TW, then chariots followed by horses. We'll soon get our horse count up to fill the galleys waiting then (I'm assuming we'll have ~ 5 galleys by then).

@ leif: :( Sorry, I think I did the same thing once in a QSC as well. I debate whether I should go with the one tech or the other, decide on one and then forget to make the switch. If I could only learn that I need to know what tech to go for before the pop-up asking for next research rears its ugly head :(

Memory is the second thing to go!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

OK, I took a good long look at the terrain of our little island. I will attach the .jpg image at the bottom. To accomplish this will require about 90 to 100 worker turns of effort. Therefore, I think we should consider the proposal to be a work in progress and *not* make it a priority. The "pink" square (mountain) on the map is where we station a spear to keep the barbs at bay. I suggest the following:

1. We finish building roads in all of the squares inside the city radius, even the ones we do not plan to work. I think this is a good idea because, hopefully, we will have fast units and with roads they can get back into Moscow on the same turn as they attack to heal quicker.

2. We join 2 of our workers into Moscow as we said we would, using 10 food workers to make 20 food citizens. We keep the original worker to do road duty.

3. The priority of work is to go east first. then southeast, then back to the north.

One of the difficulties of using more than one worker on this is protecting them, so the worker will need an accompanying spear. This, plus creating workers as Alan planned for growth, I think says one worker on duty.

The only thing that concerns me about "not" doing any roading is that once we do find the other civs and do a bunch of trading it will end up taking us the 90 - 100 worker turns to connect up those resourses. If you are sure that once at size 12 we can pump out a worker per turn without losing any citizens then I'm for adding them back in now and then spend 3 turns getting them back. I'm not that great of a game mechanic to figure out if this would work or not.

At size 12 with a harbour, we can have surplus food. In time that means a full granary, which again means we can pull off a worker w/o dropping to 11 for more than one turn (iirc).

Update: no progress yet, I should be able to play and post today. I've been working on my continuing education credits.

Update: no progress yet, I should be able to play and post today. I've been working on my continuing education credits.
Continuing what?? :hmm: Where are your priorities? :eek:

I suppose at Christmas you'll be sitting around the tree instead of at the computer? :rolleyes: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well, good luck. :coffee:

Preturn - 1250BC
The 12 best workable tiles are already prepared, so I start on the roading project
sci to 70% still in 4
Send the three workers to 3 separate tundra tiles

IBT - Barb

Turn 1 - 1225BC
Northern warrior SE / workers road / Galley W S S

IBT - Bwarrior dies attacking us

Turn 2 - 1200BC
warrior S / galley S E E

IBT

Turn 3 - 1175BC
Galley S (spies a Bcamp 6 tiles from Moscow) S SE / warrior E (looking for where the barb came from)

IBT - we learn WC (set to WHEEL 80% in 6 at -5gpt)

Turn 4 - 1150BC
converge the 3 workers to spear mt / warrior E / galley S S NE NE

IBT

Turn 5 - 1125BC
galley S E NE / workers road mt / warrior NE

IBT

Turn 6 - 1100BC
warrior S / galley S S E E

IBT

Turn 7 - 1075BC
Moscow grows to size 9 - our harbor is 1 tile short - should have probably MM last turn but forgot too
warrior E / galley E E N (there are silks on this little island)
lux to 20% we're at -7gpt

IBT - Harbor completes

Turn 8 - 1050BC
send 2 workers to tundra tiles and 1 back to Moscow to join city
sci to 70% - still in 2 at -5gpt
warrior S / galley E E N

IBT

Turn 9 - 1025BC
join 1 worker to Moscow now at size 10 (BTW food in the box did not reset when worker was joined)
workers road / warrior S
Small mistake: realized I should have taken galley S when I reached the small island 2 turns ago - decide not to backtrack
galley E E N

IBT - learn WHEEL set to IW (but can be changed) / add second story to palace

Turn 10 - 1000BC
There are 2 tiles with horses: wheat Horse and mountain Horse
warrior S / galley E E (spies sea tiles across ocean)

End my turn here - but the galley still has movement points - need to decide if we want to suicide from here

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam05_05.jpg

Firaxis score 86
Jason score 56

Notes to next player
1) Move galley in preturn either back west or further E E
2) Can change research in preturn - options are MAS, IW, PHIL, COL, LIT, HBR or MYST
3) when the regular worker finishes roading the tile you can join him to Moscow

The Horses
I think the eastern wheat Horse is closer than the northern mountain Horse.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam05_06.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam05_07.jpg

Nice turns Gator!

East is definitely closer for the horses. I vote :thumbsup: on the :suicide:

Good job Gator! :goodjob: Nice to see that all that studying didn't fry your brain. :banana:
Notes to next player
1) Move galley in preturn either back west or further E E
2) Can change research in preturn - options are MAS, IW, PHIL, COL, LIT, HBR or MYST
3) when the regular worker finishes roading the tile you can join him to Moscow
1. I agree with Misfit, the suicide is on. We have to meet some other civs, and soon. In fact, the next Galley should go west and suicide its way to glory, or death. :rockon:
2. I think we should research HBR. First, we know we have horses and we'll need it. Second, I think it would best to research as far up the tech tree as possible in order to have some trade material. Map Making will be good and HBR should also be. Most of the AI's ought to have IW soon, if not already. There are plenty of civs out there that started with BW.
3. Yes.

Galley finishes in 1 turn. I don't think we need more military just yet. I think the spear on the mountain will be needed to defend the eqworker as he heads for the horses. We can always pull the other spear out for a turn or two to defend the mountain when needed and use the lux slider. What to build next then, Galleys?

BTW - I have it and plan to play tomorrow evening. That gives us 24 hours to sort anything out.
:mischief:

I'd definitly say we need more galleys, especially if we need to suicide, but if this is the picture all around our island, GLight is an essential build if we're planning to go anywhere before astronomy :eek:

Nice, Gator:thumbsup:. Suicide galley to the east then! To death or glory :D


I notice there's a path one tile north of where our galley is running where the coast tile is next to an ocean tile. That means a galley would use one fewer movement points to get to the ocean, where it's one point per tile. It may make no difference to the final path moves from coast to coast, but we need to look for opportunities like this for future suicide runs as they increase our reach.

AlanH
Capt Buttkick
DJMGator13 - Just played
leif erikson UP
Mistfit - On deck, rarin' to go.

Nice spotted, Alan :goodjob:
So why don't we move back to that space this turn and then make the suicide run on the next turn?

I'd definitly say we need more galleys, especially if we need to suicide, but if this is the picture all around our island, GLight is an essential build if we're planning to go anywhere before astronomy :eek:
Good point! :goodjob: What about the Great Lighthouse? We are producing 11 shields per turn now and, when the pop increases, I think 13 is doable. That means a minimum of 24 turns. Perhaps another galley first?

Good catch Alan. I think it would be wise to move back to that coastal square and start the suicide (or maybe not) run the turn after. :)

How about research objectives? HBR or something else? As I said earlier, the higher up the tree we get, and hopefully something useful, the better opportunities for trading we will have. :mischief:

OK, another 10 to 12 hours then. :cool:

I agree on HBR, also because we shouldn't produce too many swords imhso.

Nice catch Alan. By all means move him back with the 3 mp left, then launch from there.

The Great Lighthouse did come up as a 24 turn build before I started the current galley and we've increased pop by 1 since then. We also have the other worker which can be joined in a few turns.

I was leaning towards HBR also, but figured we need to know were our iron is (if any) for our roading project.

The question remains, do we want to put 300 shields into a wonder? Imho, it is doable since we have the time before we'll get horses, unless we are going to put more effort into the road work. :eek: 8 tiles X 3 turns per tile, plus movement comes to more than 24 turns?

I can't think of too many things to build in the meantime that will help us in our quest. To build military seems a waste without building fast units, unless it is more galleys.

Is it worth the effort? :hmm:

We are in the dead centre of the map, so the others are likely to be ranged around us in different directions. We shall need to work out what shape this world is as soon as possible in order to decide how to proceed to acquire more territory and power. Our options are to throw all our eggs into the Lighthouse basket or to build multiple suicide galleys.

If we do it with suicide galleys it will take maybe half a dozen galleys or more. Each one has a 50% chance of survival if the route only involves one deep sea stop-over - 25% if it has to survive two. So it could take 20 turn plus to build the galleys.

The Great Lighthouse would probably allow us to find the others safely, using fewer galleys. And it could bring the important bonus that winning it may keep our homeland safe from the AI until the late middle ages.

I'm not usually a wonder builder, but we've already done it once. Why not another one?

The Great Lighthouse would probably allow us to find the others safely, using fewer galleys. And it could bring the important bonus that winning it may keep our homeland safe from the AI until the late middle ages.
I know it is hard to imagine, but I had another thought. Didn't we also learn that we could connect harbors over sea squares with the Great Lighthouse? We may need that ability if we seek to expand away from our home island. :mischief:

We lost a galley but we have met the Indians and they have a nice clear path to our continent! Hope they come and build a couple of cities for us. They have been busy trading as we are down at least 4 techs. It is all described in the turn log that follows. Sorry, no screenies as we are ranged so far now it would require several to cover the area, and its late and I'm lazy. :D

<< The Save >> (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Xteam_SG005_BC0750_01.SAV)

Turn 80 – 1000 BC
Pre-flight
Galley moves NW, NW and W.
Change research to HBR at 50%, due in 10 turns and we are breaking even.
Everything else looks good so I press enter.

IBT
Moscow Galley => Galley.

Turn 81 – 975 BC
New Galley W and SW.
Elite Warrior W.
Galley E, E, E, E and E. It wouldn’t have mattered much as we are in a sea square but we can see a coastal square to the east. Will we survive?

IBT
We survived!! :clap:

Turn 82 – 950 BC
Galley E, NE, NE. Land Ho, but no one is around!
Worker SW.
EqWorker E. Elite Warrior W.
New Galley W and NW.
Wake Vet Spear on the mountain and move to cover the eqWorker.

IBT
ZZzzzz

Turn 83 – 925 BC
Worker roads.
Elite Warrior W.
EqWorker roads. Spear fortifies.
New Galley W, N and N, sights a Barb Galley.
Galley E, N and N.

IBT
We are attacked by the Barb Galley who dies without inflicting any loss.
Moscow Galley => The Great Lighthouse, due in 28 turns.

Turn 84 – 900 BC
Newest Galley W and SW.
Elite Warrior SW and W into Moscow and fortifies.
Wake Vet Spear in Moscow and move to mountain.
New Galley NW, N and NE, end next to a Barb Galley and encampment.
Galley N, N and W, looking pretty lonely.

IBT
We are attacked by the Barb Galley and we defeat him but lose 1 HP.

Turn 85 – 875 BC
New Galley NW, N and NE.
Newest Galley W, W and N.
Vet Spear on mountain fortifies.
Galley N and N, sees a GH but?

IBT
A Barb Horseman comes up from the south, Ooops.

Turn 86 – 850 BC
Worker moves into Moscow.
EqWorker SE followed by Vet Spear.
Newest Galley W, N and N.
New Galley N, NE and E.
Galley N, N and W.

IBT
Barb Horseman destroys road on hill 3 squares SE of Moscow.

Turn 87 – 825 BC
Moscow grows to pop 11.
Join Worker to Moscow to grow to pop 12. Amazingly, there is no adjustment to the lux slider necessary as we have 6 happy and 6 unhappy. GLH in 20 turns.
EqWorker roads.
Vet Spear fortifies.
New Galley NE, E and E.
Newest Galley n, N and N.
Galley N and N.

IBT
The Barb Horseman moves next to Moscow.
I don’t understand this, Moscow riots? :eek: One Happy citizen has become content? :confused:

Turn 88 – 800 BC
Adjust lux slider to 30%, now we have 7 happy and 5 unhappy, hope it isn’t lying to me.
New Galley N, NE and NE.
Newest Galley begins a suicide run W, W, W, W and W.
Galley has run up the eastern side of an island on which I see no signs of life. I decide to make another suicide run to the east. Move E, E, E, SE and SE.
Wake Elite Warrior and attack Barb Horse and defeat him without loss.
Re-check F1 and see 6 happy, one content and 5 unhappy.

IBT
We lose our eastern galley. :cry:

Turn 89 – 775 BC
Since Moscow can remain productive without the warrior, I decide to hunt to the Barb Camp to the south. Elite Warrior SE and SE.
New Galley NW, N and N.
Newest Galley W, W, W and W, finds a new land mass and sees a Barb Warrior on a mountain. :rockon:

IBT
We discover Horseback Riding. I set research to Code of Laws at 40%, due in 22 turns and we are making 1 GPT. It is the next players choice for tech and research rate.

Turn 90 – 750 BC
Newest Galley N, N and NW.
Elite Warrior SW to stay in the forest.
EqWorker SE followed by the Vet Spear.
New Galley N and N, we meet the Indians!!
We contact Gandhi. :thumbsup: He has Masonry, IW, Mysticism and Code of Laws. He has all the techs we have but will make a trade for any of the techs except Code of Laws. Up to next player to make trades.

After Action Report.
We have met the Indians. They have an open run to our continent and have a galley that may be headed our way. Still to close to his continent to tell for sure. They are way ahead in tech, so there must be more civs up here. He wants our map as every offer he made included it.

In other exploration news, we survived a suicide attempt to the west and found more land. It needs to be further explored as I haven’t seen anyone there yet except Barbs. The Galley to the east has not been heard from and is lost, no glory for them. The land they discovered turned out to be an uninhabited island. :p

Moscow is now size 12 and 19 turns from The Great Lighthouse. The roadwork is moving towards the horse to the east. There is a Barb Camp plotted on the map 7 squares NW and 2 squares north of Moscow. A Barb Horseman came from the area south of Moscow and it looks like a Barb Camp is plotted 4 squares south and 2 squares SE of Moscow. One of our warriors is moving to attack this camp.

Firaxis score = 93, Jason = 61

Research can still be changed during pre-flight. Knowing what India has, we should decide what we think will be best to proceed with as they have Code of Laws.

Good luck on your first shot Misfit. Trade for some good techs for us!

An impression is that there are a lot of islands around out there. That could pose some big problems for us later as the vistory condition is conquest and we will have a lot of chasing around to do if the other civs get established on these islands. This could be quite a long game!! :eek:

Edit - I hate to change horses in the middle of the stream but another late night opinion may be in order? India is in easy reach of galleys. Should we consider speeding up our roading to horses and preping an army to visit Gandhi? Or shall we wait for him to come to us? See you in the morning. :cool:

:goodjob: leif
I really don't think we should allow more cities to be built on our continent if we can avoid it. My priority would be to finish GLight (we've got a lot of coastal squares to move through, so GLight will help us move a lot faster (50% faster in coastal areas)) and the road. After that, attack India on their home continent with horses.
Hopefully we'll get a MGL which will allow us to set up the FP rank exploit bug without really abusing it since we're not allowed to build cities on this, or any other, continent anyway.

Leif: I think what happened with the rioting is that the barb horse moved onto a 2 or 3 gold tile, forcing another tile to be worked. That in turn, was enough for lux to be dropped 1 gold and the city rioted. I try to keep up with events like thisin my MMing, but I don't always remember.

I'm not sure why we should discourage some settlement on our island. Two more cities on those other productive locations would be easy to capture once we sort out our tech situation, and would be very productive. Given the AI's consumate inability to invade overseas they'll be easy to defend. If we grow a bit of culture in them we can probably expand our culture to cover most of the island eventually. As they are at radius 9 or 10 from our capital, corruption in another core based on an FP will be very low.

Any reason why we seem to have chosen to road the pretty route to the horses :hmm:. A road starting from our eastern-most existing road would have taken 24 turns. This one, starting from and not including the mountain, is 50% further and will have taken 36.

[EDIT] For lurkers and the team, here's a screenshot. Click the image to see a full size version (still zoomed, though).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam_750BC_Small.jpg (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam_750BC_Full.jpg)

AlanH - On deck
Capt Buttkick
DJMGator13
leif erikson - Just played
Mistfit UP - at last!

Great we've started to meet people. We might want to hold off on trades for a few turns. Only our map will deteriorate in value, but if we can meet one or two more civs we'll reduce the prices of techs, currently at monopoly level from India. I think they'll immediately halve when we meet a second civ.

BTW. In case anyone doesn't know we have more than 7 rivals in this game, so you need to Shift-right-click on an empty leaderhead position in F4 to bring up a menu (only one item currently) to select India to appear there. They are in the second half of the list of civs you see in F10, so they don't appear in the F4 screen by default. Once Mistfit has done this and submitted a save in that state we don't need to do it again for India until we fill up the eight spaces and want to talk to someone else.

Hm, that is a strange road :confused:

Alan: how do you fit the screenshot to the page (code)?

Hm, that is a strange road :confused:

Alan: how do you fit the screenshot to the page (code)?

I don't have a 2500 pixel-wide screen :), so I had to stitch together three separate screen shots to build the full image. I did that in Photoshop Elephants, and then used its 'Save for Web' facility as usual to save a jpeg image file.

Photoshop allows you to scale the generated jpeg to a width. This time I saved two files, one is scaled to width 800 pixels, keeping the image proportions. The other is the full size image you get if you click on the in-line one. Uploaded both to the uploads8 folder using Upload Files at the bottom of the page, then added a link to both of them in the post. You can see how the image/link combo works if you click on Quote for that post and look at the tags I inserted.

Thanks :thumbsup:
Learn a little somthing everyday ;)

Any reason why we seem to have chosen to road the pretty route to the horses :hmm:. A road starting from our eastern-most existing road would have taken 24 turns. This one, starting from and not including the mountain, is 50% further and will have taken 36.
I can't think of any particular reason, except perhaps that I can't count and was wedded to the idea that we should control traffic through the mountain "stronghold". :blush: I hate it when I cost the team time. :(

I agree that we should allow civs to build on our continent as it is the only way we will be able to grow here. What are the requirements for a city to not autoraze? Is it one cultural expansion or size 3?

I know this is a large map, but the civs must be relatively crowded together. At Regent, there must be some other civs around India for them to know that much tech, they must have been trading. It will be interesting to find out what is around India.

Nice Map Alan! :goodjob: Sorry, I don't have the tools to do that, thanks.

EDIT - Note to Misfit. Just checked the save and Capt Buttkick (Thanks BTW) was correct. The Barb Horseman did move the citizen off of a 3 gold square (forest with furs) and I forgot to change it back before I saved and filed it. Please clean up my poor micromanagement... :blush: Note to self - stop playing so late at night. :rolleyes:

No autoraze = cultural expansion or size 2.

I agree, India will have to know at least 2 or 3 other civs to have gotten that far in tech on regent.

Sorry I've been a bit quite. I've been digging out of snow and on the road for work the last couple of days (white knuckle driving). Good turns to the both of you :goodjob: I'll re-read the last couple of pages and come back to post a plan and questions. I'll play tonight or tomorrow night.

I guess I have a few minor details to ask on:
1.) What is an eqWorker?
2.) What Tech are we switching to?
3.) Are we better off turning off science for a bit now that we can reasonably be sure that we will meet others fairly quickly?

1. eqWorker is just an ordinary worker, except you can't sell it or buy it. It's designed to equalise the differences in worker prices between PtW and Civ 1.29.

2 and 3. Since India has everything else we need, I suggest we go for Literature or Philosophy. I don't believe we should trade for India's techs until after we meet some of Gandhi's neighbours to reduce prices. Meanwhile minimum research on Literature might be in order to build our gold reserves ready for trading time.

2 and 3. Since India has everything else we need, I suggest we go for Literature or Philosophy. I don't believe we should trade for India's techs until after we meet some of Gandhi's neighbours to reduce prices. Meanwhile minimum research on Literature might be in order to build our gold reserves ready for trading time.
Literature seems like a good bet to me, on min. There have to be other civs up around Gandhi somewhere and it shouldn't take long to find them. Gandhi knows the Egyptians, Americans and one other civ (sorry, forgot already :eek: ). Opening negotiations with India will show who they are, but my point is that they can't be too far away. There isn't very much map space up there.

Good luck Misfit! :thumbsup:

India knows America, Spain and Egypt. Gandhi wants most of our assets even for the cheapest contact, so I recommend we keep exploring ourselves rather than trade for contact.

Gandhi wants most of our assets even for the cheapest contact, so I recommend we keep exploring ourselves rather than trade for contact.
I agree, they can't be too far away. :mischief:

Ok - I'm done with the turns. Big news....but you'll have to wait until tomorrow morning. :evil: Or is that later this morning, either way I'm going to bed.

Good Morning Misfit! Big News?? :drool:

Hope you slept fitfully? :D

I'll just have to take a little break :coffee: and be patient. ;)

Misfit: It's probably tomorrow where you are and later today back here in the old country :confused:
That would explain why I'm so impatient while you just keep on :sleep: ;)

Misfit: It's probably tomorrow where you are and later today back here in the old country :confused:
That would explain why I'm so impatient while you just keep on :sleep: ;)
I don't live so far away and know what time it is here. It is time to get up and post!! :rolleyes: Although it is Sunday morning... :sleep:

:aargh: :ar15: :band: Are there any others I can use to make more noise to awaken our sleeping friend?? :mischief:

Ok I had to go to church this morning. Sorry for the delay. A short recap of these very eventfull turns. We learn 11 Techs, are in the middle ages, have a complete world map and almost everyones gold :D

PreTurn: Set up the new icons and blippy thing - Try test game see the sheep and I'm ready to go. Switch Moscow worker from rForest to Fur Forest for the extra commerse. (Very Nice catch...whom ever found that one :) ) Switch research over to Lit due in 40 turns with sci slider set at 10%.

IBT:

Most advanced list coes up

1) English
2) French
3) Arabs
4) Aztecs
5) Keltoi
6) Vikings
7) Iroquois
8) Japanese

Well We are not in the top eight and neither are the Indian's and the indians are what 3 or 4 techs ahead of us...time to meet the neighbors.

Turn 1 (730BC)

Westen Galley N - N -W Spot yellow borders (no one visable)

eWarrior S.

Worker roads

Spearman SE to Mtn to lookout. Northern Galley NE - NE - N. (I think ?)

IBT:

Zzzz...

Turn 2 (710BC)

eWarrior SE.

Spear Hold.

Northern Galley S - E - NE

Western Galler N - N

And we Meet the Egyptians (polite)

She has Masonry - Iron Working - Mysticism and Codes of Law - 73 gold with communications with America and Spain.

No 2fers yet so I will hold off for a turn or two and see if I can't meet someone else.

Galley continues on NE.

IBT:

Cleo ask us to leave and I declare war...Ok I didn't. I leave.

Japan Finish the Oracle in Kyoto

Indians building the Pyramids and the Great Lighthouse

Turn 3 (690BC)

eWarrior S.

Spear on hold on Mtn.

Northern Galley E - N - N.

Western Galley SE - E - E.

I decide that none of the techs available are really needed at this moment except the Iron Working. If I don't find anyone the next turn I will purchase it for the 110gold.

IBT:
Zzz...

Turn 4 (670BC)

I'm glad I waited.

Northern Galley Moves 3 turns (I forgot the order) and see Red borders.

We meet Spain.

Ferdinand (polite) has Masonry - Iron working and Mysticism. (no CoL) and communications with the Americans 5 cities and 1 gold.

Trade Time:

Gandhi: gives CODES OF LAW we pay 150

Ferdinand: gives MASONRY and MYSTICISM and TM we pay CoL

Hmm Cleo and Gabdhi also Math.

Back to Gandhi: Gives MATHMATICS we pay WM and 25 Gold

Back to Ferdinand: Gives IRONWORKING we pay Math and WM

Cleo: Gives TM - Contact with the Americans and 5 gold for our WM.

Abe: Trade WM's

Overall:

We pay 170 and WM for

5 techs - contact with Abe - and a map of the complete North

Not bad.

By the looks of things we will be needing more suicides to reach the others.

Abe and Gandhi Lands
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Abe_Gandhi_Lands.jpg
Ferdi and Cleo Lands
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Ferdi_Cleo_Lands.jpg


Worker S.

Spear SW to cover.

eWarrior - Kills barb Camp for 25 gold.

Northern Galley N - N.

Oh yeah we have Iron 7 tiles SE of Moscow, 2 tile NE and 3 tiles N of Moscow, and one other source pretty far off.


IBT:

Gandhi ask us to leave..OK

Turn 5 (650BC)

Worker roads.

Spear fortifies.

eWarrior NE.

Western Galley W - W - N

Nothern Galley E - E - N


IBT:

Barb Horse comes from the north near our worker/spear

Turn 6 (630BC)

eWarrior N.

Western Galley W - W - NW

Northern Galley E - NE - N. (see a decent spot for the next suicide)

Cross my fingers and hit enter. (I think that I'm better off fortifying the spear as opposed to attacking the horse...right?)

IBT:

Horse attacks and dies flawlessly

Turn 7 (610BC)

eWarrior N

Western Galley S - S - S

Northern Galley E (Sea) - E (Ocean) - E (Ocean and see pink Borders) E (Ocean) - E (Sea)

We end on a sea square but we see the Arabs.

He knows the rest of the world and Lit - Philo and Poly. I'm going to wait to see if the galley survives before trading anything.

IBT:

Dangit - We sink. Luckly we met them before we sank anyway.

Another horse barb comes from around the Mountain in the north taking 1hp from the spear and dies.

Turn 8 (590BC)

Western Galley S - S.

Well Here goes the trades:

Sali (Arab) Gives PHILOSOPHY - LITERATURE for contacts with the Americans and Egyptians

Sali gives contact with the Aztec for contact with the Indians and WM

Sali gives TM and 15 Gold for contact with the Spanish

Montezuma (Aztec) Gives POLYTHEISM and TM for Lit and WM

Montezuma gives contact with the Japenese and 4 gold for contact with the Americans.

Montezuma gives contact with the Chinese and 4 gold for contact with the Chinese.

Montezima gives contact with the french and 16 gold (his treasury) for conact with Egypt and India

Joan (France) gives CURRENCY for WM, 40 gold and all contacts (I couldn't get her TM for anything)

Tokugawa (Japan) gives WM and 9 gold for all contacts and Currency. (Wow this is a weird map)

Mao - Gives contact with the rest of the world for Lit - Math and 2 contacts

The only person that has any tech up on us is the Iriquois and he will not give it up for anything.

Hiawatha (Irr) - gives 15 gold for TM

Gandhi - gives 205 and WM for the rest of the contacts he does not have

Egypt gives us 66 gold for 2 contacts.

Sell the Arabs Currency for WM and 70 gold

Sell england Currency for Wm and 50 gold

Zuland gets Math for 25 gold and WM

Kelts get 2 contacts for 25 gold and WM

Vikings get 1 contact for 11 gold and WM

Abe gets 1 contact for 9 gold and WM

Joan sets our WM for 17 Gold and WM

Whew! That only took 2 hours.

The only downfall is that we may get demands now that we have the majority of the worlds gold and a tech lead on almost everyone.

IBT:

Zulu building GL

Barb Uprising near Moscow :(

Turn 8 (570 BC)

eWarrior NE.

Worker roads

Spear fortifies

Western SE - S - S

Buy CONSTRUCTION from Abe for 295 gold

We Learn MONOTHEISM (free TECH)

Hmm... I figured we could buy Monarchy from the Iriquois for Construction but they won't budge.

Well According to Gator we have no other Scientific Civ's to play with so I can't gift anyone forward.

We are the Tech Leader and have a monopoly on Monotheism.

Lets hope that someone researches somthing besides Mono. Japan - France - America are all in the Middle Ages

Start on Feudalism in 40 at 10%.

IBT:

Mongols want to trade WM instead I gift him our TM.

Egypt is building the GL

Turn 9 (550 BC)

Western Galley S - SE - W close to a barb galley we will be attacked IBT

eWarrior back to Moscow and Forted.

IBT:

Get attacked by the barb galley for -1hp

Turn 10 (530BC)

Galley moves 3 spots

Hand Down Report:

Thanks for giving me these turns guys!

The great Lighthouse is due in 8. We will need a few workers after that.

There is a new barb camp to the SE.

We can pick up Monarchy now from the Iriquois for Mono but I'll let you guys decide that one.

Here's the New Mini-Map
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/New_Mini.jpg

Before:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Before1.jpg

After:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/After.jpg

THE SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Xteam_SG005_BC0530_01.SAV)

Did I screw up the amount of turns? I notice Team Tone is at 570AD. Oh well Sorry if I did.

Hot stuff, Mistfit! I just hope I never meet you across a negotiating table in eBay :D

Well, m-b certainly gave us a neat map for a one city challenge. Now we have to discuss (a) how best to survive the barb onslaught that's about to hit us and (b) how we go about conquering this motley elliptical crowd.

Roster:

AlanH UP
Capt Buttkick - On deck
DJMGator13
leif erikson
Mistfit - kept us all guessing, and just played a blinder!

I'll get it today and have a first-hand look before I comment on the next steps, but I think we should all discuss our way forward before I start my turn set.

[EDIT] Looks like you played 11 turns. 10 would have finished at 550 BC. But I forgive you - I'll play 9.

[EDIT 2] Sorry - talking rubbish!

:lol: You're so very forgiving, Alan :lol:

Big :goodjob: to Misfit. That's a lot of work done there. Have you got any suggestions as to who we should attack first, and where?
GLight will obviously help us a lot, if we get it that is. With this cramped up space, there's got to be a lot of wonderbuilds going on.

:lol: You're so very forgiving, Alan :lol:

Big :goodjob: to Misfit. That's a lot of work done there. Have you got any suggestions as to who we should attack first, and where?
GLight will obviously help us a lot, if we get it that is. With this cramped up space, there's got to be a lot of wonderbuilds going on.
Thanks Capt.

I think that India is the odds on favorite to be attacked first. They are the closest and and accessable without any suicide galleys with or without the Great Light House.

If you look at the Map of Gandhi's land you can see that he is running out of space and is coming closer to our island. It is only a matter of time before he will have cities on our land mass.

I was thinking about the Great Lighthouse. We really do not need it for our campaigns against the Indians, Americans, Spanish, or Egypt. But unfortunately we really have no other wonders to switch to unless you want the Great wall (for our one city) Sun Tzu ( a 200 shield Barracks) or the Hero Epic (which would finish in 2 turns). The only Wonder on the horizon that is usefull is Leo's. But it is not available for another 3 techs.

I personally think that we should turn off our science slider. We are not able to research any faster than the minimum at this point. With 15 rivals I do not think we will be first to many techs until we can conquer some cities.

What are we going to do for government? I know AlanH likes Republic but Monarchy is available right now. We are not going to revolt until the Great Lighthouse is completed so I guess we could wait to see if someone else has learned Republic and decide then.

As for wonder builds...there were not many pop-ups for wonders during my turns. I actually wrote all of them down as they happened.

Here are some first impressions (X-posted with Mistfit, so may not follow on very well):

1. From what we can see of the map so far it looks as if the only safe route between us and the rest of the world is currently via the Jaipur channel north of our island. If we control that we can dictate who comes to visit.

2. We need to get some wars going around the archipelago to slow things down a bit while we get our act together. We can spend that gold reserve that Mistfit has created for us on some embassies, start some wars and make some alliances.

3. I think we should try to finish the Great Lighthouse asap as that will keep our sea routes limited and give us much more flexibility in our strategy. There are three Lighthouse builds in progress currently, but it's likely to be cascaded to by Pyramids builders. We can get it in 7 turns if we run a -1fpt deficit and work an extra forest tile instead of the lake. Our granary will hold out OK for that. If we fail we have cascade options including Great Wall, Heroic Epic (both available now in one turn), or Great Library in 14.

4. We may have to defend Moscow against the barb uprising with our current complement of 2 warriors and 2 spears, and one of the spears has to defend a colony or the worker. The uprising was announced in Mistfit's turn 8, 570 BC. Horses will take 3 to 5 turns to reach our borders from the three barb camps on our island, so I expect to see the first wave arrive outside our borders in my first or second turn. Our warriors are elites and fortified in a city, so they have a 95% probability of surviving against a barb horse. However, after the first attack they are likely to have lost one or more hit points, and they can't promote to recover any hit points during the attacks. So the odds are that they will both die if hit by a 16 or 32 high SoD. The spear has to get back to Moscow in the interturn so that he can fortify before the onslaught. He has a much higher survival rate, he can promote on the second attack to gain a hit point, and so will probably hold the fort. If the RNG ordains that he dies he'll probably have reduced the stack to a level where the warriors can hold out.

That's as far as my thoughts have progressed so far. Any other suggestions?

I was attacked by 2 horseman out in the field already. My only thought is that we could spend our money before they can take it from us. I'd get embassies with the northern chain of islands first. Then the bigger civs around the world afterwards.

When the end-of-era uprising happens it won't be two horses, it'll be a stack of 16 or 32. I agree we should spend the cash, and not just to keep it from the barbs - see my comments. The other major asset we have to protect is the 202 shields we have invested in the Lighthouse, and we'll lose them for sure if a barb horse hits an unprotected Moscow.

Ok I understand. I completely forgot about the end of Era Uprising. Good Points.
We have one galley left and he is over in the Westen Part of the Map. I kept going back and forth on wether or not to keep exploring or to bring him home. I think we need to bring him back. By the time he gets there we should be ready to use him for transport to the New World.

Note:
I do not believe that the map wraps around. I could not get it to do so while I was playing.

Note #2:
@ Alan: I love the name you gave the costal route to the North. I will from now on call it the Jaipur Channel

I love the name you gave the costal route to the North. I will from now on call it the Jaipur Channel It should probably be called the Jaipur Causeway if truth be told, or perhaps the Jaipur Banks, as a channel implies a deep water path.

We are very weak relative to all the other civs. Our only major assets are our culture - we are twice the culture level of our rivals - and our isolation.

We'll take a while to build up a force sufficiently strong, and a fleet of galleys, to take on India in their homeland. We have to complete the horse road (11 turns if our eqWorker survives the barbs), then build some horses. At 15 spt we can build one horse or one galley every two turns, so after we finish the Lighthouse in 7 turns we can build a couple of galleys (and maybe a worker to replace eqWorker to road to iron) then horses to fill them. During that time India, or another civ, are likely to build cities on our island, and I think we should let that happen. Our horses can practice on those cities when they reach pop 2, adn then we'll have three or four high performace production centres.

Re. government: We are going to be waging wars from early on. They will not be short wars, I feel, until we get to Chivalry. I think Monarchy will serve us best, and will get us onto a higher production level sooner. We can produce a worker or two and mine the cattle as we get extra food in Monarchy, so we can maintain the magic 15spt in Moscow without a food deficit. So I think we should trade for Monarchy, and revolt when we complete the Lighthouse.

Wow, Misfit! Those were certainly some eventful turns. :goodjob: You certainly got a lot done in 10 turns, I guess that makes up for missing a set.

I would like to ask the team a question, and I don't mean to imply that what Misfit did was in any way wrong. I was wondering if it might have been easier, regarding future tech trades, if we had not traded contacts between the 2 continents and kept ourselves as the tech broker between them? I know it is water under the bridge, but in terms of improving my own game, I was wondering what others thought of that concept?

1. From what we can see of the map so far it looks as if the only safe route between us and the rest of the world is currently via the Jaipur channel north of our island. If we control that we can dictate who comes to visit.
Yes. I still think we should encourage someone to visit. Their towns would be easy prey once they won't autoraze. The issue is whether they will be more productive than taking soemone else's territory and building a forbidden palace or palace jumping? The other question is how big a navy would we need to accomplish this goal?
2. We need to get some wars going around the archipelago to slow things down a bit while we get our act together. We can spend that gold reserve that Mistfit has created for us on some embassies, start some wars and make some alliances.
Wars will slow down the tech pace and expansion rate for sure. The question is how to set it up to ensure they expend themselves on each other to leave them more vulnerable for us. We have to take care not to create a superpower that we'll have to destroy.
3. I think we should try to finish the Great Lighthouse asap as that will keep our sea routes limited and give us much more flexibility in our strategy. There are three Lighthouse builds in progress currently, but it's likely to be cascaded to by Pyramids builders. We can get it in 7 turns if we run a -1fpt deficit and work an extra forest tile instead of the lake. Our granary will hold out OK for that. If we fail we have cascade options including Great Wall, Heroic Epic (both available now in one turn), or Great Library in 14.
I agree wiht this as it not only helps our movement but denies it to the AI civs. I checked the save and think we should use the forest and the negative food. It will be awful close getting the lighthouse built and the arrival of the Barb Horseman.
4. We may have to defend Moscow against the barb uprising with our current complement of 2 warriors and 2 spears, and one of the spears has to defend a colony or the worker. The uprising was announced in Mistfit's turn 8, 570 BC. Horses will take 3 to 5 turns to reach our borders from the three barb camps on our island, so I expect to see the first wave arrive outside our borders in my first or second turn. Our warriors are elites and fortified in a city, so they have a 95% probability of surviving against a barb horse. However, after the first attack they are likely to have lost one or more hit points, and they can't promote to recover any hit points during the attacks. So the odds are that they will both die if hit by a 16 or 32 high SoD. The spear has to get back to Moscow in the interturn so that he can fortify before the onslaught. He has a much higher survival rate, he can promote on the second attack to gain a hit point, and so will probably hold the fort. If the RNG ordains that he dies he'll probably have reduced the stack to a level where the warriors can hold out.
Looking at the save, I would prioritize Moscow and move the other spear there asap. The worker is another issue. We can look at it as bait to divert some of the horseman away for now, so they don't all hit Moscow at once, or we can move the worker to Moscow for safety and move him back again after the crisis has past. I am inclined to recommend that the spear goes back and the worker keeps going for as long as possible, hoping to draw some horsies away and giving our military units, perhaps, some time to heal between onslaughts.
That's as far as my thoughts have progressed so far. Any other suggestions?
I suggest changing our research to Engineering, since most of the AI's are going to go after Fuedalism. Also, the lux slider can be changed to 20% from 30%.

Looking at the map, I suggest we think about taking down Spain first. They are smaller and weaker and have some good territory for expansion and growth. The disadvantage is that they are between the most powerful, America and Egypt. I think, with alliances, this could be manageable. Once we get established, then Egypt, India and America, although we should see how it goes once we get established, get a forbidden palace built and get some military. At least by attacking this area, we know we can connect harbors.

I would like to ask the team a question, and I don't mean to imply that what Misfit did was in any way wrong. I was wondering if it might have been easier, regarding future tech trades, if we had not traded contacts between the 2 continents and kept ourselves as the tech broker between them? I know it is water under the bridge, but in terms of improving my own game, I was wondering what others thought of that concept?
I had thought of that possibility myself as I was playing the turns. I probably should have stopped the game and asked your opinions but in the heat of the momont I moved on. The thing that tippd the balance for me is the fact that we were SOOOO far behind already. We knew that we were 4 techs behind the civs to the north (America, India, Egypt). When the pop up for "The Most Technically Advanced" Civ's came up none of them were in the top 8. I thought it too risky to hold off the trading for any longer than I did. Up until that point we did not know if there were a route for the two of them to meet each other. I appoligize for running ahead with the trades with out consulting 1st but IMHO it was the best thing I could think to do.

As my little, sometimes feable, head see it we have 3 choices of who to attack 1st.

China

Closest physically of all of our foes. Shanghai is 16 tiles away from Moscow.

If we could create a beach head in Shanghai - Wipe them out and then head after the Vikings.

Forbidden Palace in Bjoerguin:
8 cities with in the 8 ring

Resourses:
Iron
Horses

Lux
Insence
Gems

UU
China: 4/3/3 Rider Replaces Knights
Vikings Galloglass ? 6/2/1 I have no clue what this is.

Big Downfall:
Cannot get lux back to Moscow until ocean trading becomes available.

Spain

Closest town to Moscow is 19 tiles

FP in Barcelona:
7 towns w/in ring 8
1 @ ring 9
3 @ ring 10

Resourses:
Iron
Horses

Lux Fur

UU:
Spanish Missionary 3/2/2
Listed by gator as a mid MA Unit

Downfall:
If we do not play it right we could end up with a 2 border war between America and Egypt (powerhouses)

India

Closest to Moscow Lahore at 24 tiles (I didn't count Jaipur - on the Jaipur Banks - at 20 as it is an island

FP in Calcutta:

8 cities under 8 ring
3 cities @ 9
3 cities @ 10
3 Cities @ 11

Resourses:
Iron
Horses

Lux
Fur
Ivory

UU:
War Elephant listed as Early MA (is this also a Knight replacement?) anyone know the stats?

Downfall:
A bigger civ to tackle first - War Elephants are scary in C3C - I've not played against them in Vin Civ

One other bonus of India is that there are deserts up there. We have none on our starting island so we will prolly not have saltpeter available to us for our UU unless we take it.

I appoligize for running ahead with the trades with out consulting 1st but IMHO it was the best thing I could think to do.
No apology needed. I would have taken all the trading opportunities as they presented themselves as well. If you look carefully at the north western suicide track, I believe you'll find there's a safe galley crossing along the northern edge of the track Mistfit took. If so we have no monopoly on contacts between the north and south, and we were lucky to get to the southern civs first. Once again it seems that the AI doesn't prioritise making early contacts - a major flaw in the AI programming. You were able to exploit that first contact to slingshot us to tech parity, and that's excellent progress.

I don't think the escort spear should leave the worker. I think he can and should defend him, maybe in a forest for a defence bonus. I believe the other spear and two warriors can defend Moscow. The bad news is we may lose some improvements to pillaging, but an extra spear is not going to stop that.

I agree we should research Engineering if we spend research dollars on anything. However, I'm thinking a zero research approach may be OK for now. Thinking ahead:

- There are lots of civs, so when techs are researched and traded they will be cheap to buy. We might as well amass gold and buy the techs we want.

- What do we want? Well, you guessed my preference, no doubt. Chivalry! The AI will research Feudalism because they always do. They love their pikes. Then we just need them to add Chivalry. Japan, Mongols, China, Arabia and India will research that for sure, as all they have knight-equivalent UUs. So we only need to buy two more techs to ensure military parity until cossacks. Depending on how well our knights do we can then complete the game using knights, choose to trade for the bottom branch, and/or take the next option ...

- We already have the Colossus to satisfy our expansionist trait. We need to capture the Great Library, and then build another wonder to trigger our GA. I think we should do that before we reach cossacks. When we capture the Great Library we'll catch up again. That could take us straight to Military Tradition, or far enough that trading will get us there.

So my proposal is:

Let the AI settle and grow a few towns on our island.
- Zero research, save our pennies.
- Trade for Monarchy and revolt.
- Build a worker to retune Moscow for max shields and zero food, then roads.
- Build lots of horses, and one galley per three horses.
- Road to an iron source.
- When the AI towns and our horse count have grown to the right levels, go to war and capture the local towns.
- Expand off our island.
- Fish for a leader and build an FP in Delhi or wherever.
- Capture the Great Library as soon as possible, and time a wonder build - Leo's? Sun Tzu? - to give us an effective GA when we have a few productive cities.
- Conquer the world.

[EDIT] @Mistfit: Vikings are Scandinavia. Galloglass is Berserker, and can make amphibious attacks. It needs Invention. I've never had much trouble with them, but I've never played against them on an archipelago. Elephant is an overweight knight. Same stats, but doesn't need any resources. Makes a satisfying thud (in my imagination) when killed by a knight.

Alrighty then! I agree with your plan - on to expanding our territory!

PS. The map does wrap east/west, but not north/south.

I appoligize for running ahead with the trades with out consulting 1st but IMHO it was the best thing I could think to do.
There is no need to apologize. We play that whoever has the mouse, makes the decisions. I have no problem with what you did. :goodjob: I may well have done the same. I asked because I want to learn how others might have played and what people think are the advantages and disadvantages of withholding the contacts.

@Alan - I agree with the concept of your plan. Are we still plannning to start wars?

Looking at the relative postisions of the civs and their scores/power (guessed), and thinking that it will be at least 20 turns before we are ready to do anyone any real damage, I was thinking of aligning with India (3rd highest score) and Egypt (8) versus Spain (12) and America (2).

On the other side, I was thinking of aligning with Arabs (6), Iroquois (4), Aztecs (14), Kelts (11), Mongols (15), Zulu (7) and China (13) against France (1), Japan (5), England (9) and Vikings (10).

Don't know if we have the resources to start this to this extent, but thought I would throw it out for a discussion starter.

Good turns Mistfit.

@leif - normally I would not trade the contacts if the AI's are seperated (act as tech broker), but in this game it was only a matter of time before we lost them and we were so far behind.

On Barbs - We could pull both warriors out of Moscow to act as look outs. Send one to the northern iron area and the other SE. This should give us a chance to switch the build in Moscow to the HE before it gets ransacked. Spend all our gold (possibly on wars) and just let the barbs attack an empty city without losing our shield investment. If they are slow enough maybe the Lighthouse could complete.

On the Palace jump - I don't think we want one in this game. With the 1 build city and the map design are teams going to use/abuse the rank exploit? I've never done it so I don't know what the effect is but this game will almost force it, especially if we don't let others settle on our island (or later abandon those cities, which I would think would qualify as an abuse).

On AI wars - I've never been good at getting sucessful AI wars amongst themselves. There are 11 civs on the cresecent landmass. I've got 2 thoughts for wars based soley on mathmethics, not who is stronger, but it's probably more than we can afford.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam05_08.jpg

I would not declare on the two end civs (1 & 11) since they are who we will attack later and this should weaken them up for us. It also dosen't matter which end is 1 and which is 11.

A third option (cheapest) would be to declare on declare on #3, 6 & 9 then sign one of their neighbors (2 or 4, 5 or 7, 8 or 10 respectively) and hope that they bring others into the war.

Basic Gameplan - I think we should capture the northern continent first, then move from one end of the crescent to the other end. Maybe even aligning ourselves with the interior civs to aid in fighting the "next in line" civ. This is a long term generalized gameplan, Alan's plan is what we need to concentrate on now.

We also need to watch were the other civs plant their cities on our land. It could cost us our horses by the wheat.

Let the AI settle and grow a few towns on our island.
- Zero research, save our pennies.
- Trade for Monarchy and revolt.
- Build a worker to retune Moscow for max shields and zero food, then roads.
- Build lots of horses, and one galley per three horses.
- Road to an iron source.
- When the AI towns and our horse count have grown to the right levels, go to war and capture the local towns.
- Expand off our island.
- Fish for a leader and build an FP in Delhi or wherever.
- Capture the Great Library as soon as possible, and time a wonder build - Leo's? Sun Tzu? - to give us an effective GA when we have a few productive cities.
- Conquer the world.

This is an excellent proposal. With all the wonder builds going on, someone is bound to cascade to the GLib. Just a few notes:
- Agree with no research --> capture GLib.
- Monarchy is an excellent suggestion. With only one city, Republic just won't be able to cover our military expenses.
- Normally, I'd say we should wait as long as we can to capture the GLib, but in this game, we may win w/o Cossacks. In which case GLib + another wonder is needed for our GA. The remaining questions are: Can we rely on the AI not to discover more wonder techs before cascades start? And: Do we really have the resources on our hands to start yet another wonder? I mean, we're building more wonders in Moscow than we did in our 20K game :lol:
I think the answer to both is no. So we might consider capturing the GLib as late as we can, coincide our GLib-capture with an almost-finished prebuild of HE and switch to whatever wonder is available and of most use.

Edit on trading: as seem to be the common assessment, I'll usually wait with trading contacts, but if contact can happen at any time, or I'm not sure contacts won't happen for some time, I'll trade my contacts away like Misfit did.

Another (very late) edit, regarding who to attack first. I think we should look for an easy first target, which spells problems for Spain :hammer:

Summary: A slightly messy set of turns. Moscow survived the barb uprising and produced the Great Lighthouse. Our remote worker and spear didn't. We created a bit of mayhem with some war declarations and MAs, and the AI are getting nearer to our shores.

Turn 101 530 BC Preturn:
Reduce lux slider from 30% to 20% and switch off science. Sliders at 8.0.2, 16gpt, engneering sometime never. Move labourer from lake to forest for Lighthouse in 7 instead of 8 at -1fpt. The granary will cope. Move the spear from the mountain to defend Moscow.

Let's you and him fight.
Check on who we want to get fighting who. America and France are top dogs followed by India and Iroquois. I decide we'll try to get Spain and India to fight America, and Iroquois to fight France, and maybe get the Arabs and/or Japan involved. We also want to get Monarchy from Iroquois. If we have cash left we'll try to stoke up some fights on the southern continent among the also-rans.

Embassy in Delhi, India, 89 gold - see screenshot.
Embassy in Salamanca, Iroquois, 119 gold - see screenshot.
Embassy in Madrid, Spain, 57 gold - see screenshot.

Declare war on France. Offer MA vs France to Iroquois. We can get MA or Monarchy for Monotheism, but not both. I decide to go for Monarchy while we have the opportunity.

Trade Monotheism to Iroquois for Monarchy + 6 gold + WM.

Declare war on America. Trade Monotheism to India for MA vs America + 21 gold + WM.

Delcare war on Egypt. Trade Monarchy + Currency to Spain for MA vs America + MA vs Egypt + 5 gold + WM.

Updated WM shows Iroquois have settles on the eastern mountainous island. There may well be a safe galley route via that island to ours.

Embassy in Zimbabwe, Zululand, for 56 gold - see screenshot.
Declare war on China and Mongols. Trade Curency and Construction to Zulus for MA vs China + WM. They won't ally vs. Mongols as well.

Our low power level seems to be making alliances expensive.

IBT
A stack of horses attacks our remote spear. He puts up a brave fight, kills the first seven and promotes to elite but gets down to one hit point and is finally killed by the eighth horse. Our eqWorker is killed as well. Our Palace gets some steps in remembrance of their bravery. America and Japan start building the Great Library.

Turn 102 510 BC Spear fortifies in Moscow. Galley heads south to the NW tip of the southern continent.

IBT Barb horses arrive near Moscow. Spain starts the Great Library. A barb galley turns up next to our galley.

Turn 103 490 BC Galley runs away to the east. There are two barb horses within range of Moscow and one outside.

IBT One barb horse attacks Moscow and dies. No damage. The second horse pillages a tundra road nd more arrive. The Palace gets a victory lawn. The Vikings start the Great Library.

Turn 104 470 BC Galley continues to retreat east from barb galley. Warriors stay inside Moscow rather than attack the horses outside. If we attacked we'd win, but then he'd be exposed to counter attack by the next horse.

IBT Vikings complain about our retreating ga;ey. A horse pillages our mined tundra.A horse attacks our Moscow spear and dies. No damage. More horses appraoch. Iroquois, Keltoi, India all start Great Library.

Turn 105 450 BC Galley east. 5 horses are now threatening Moscow.

IBT Horses pillage three tiles. Three horses attack outr spear and die. He promotes and loses two hit points. Barb galley still chasing ours. Astecs start Library.

Turn 106 430 BC Galley runs. Now six horses threaten Moscow. Spear is fully recovered and elite.

IBT Spear kills six or seven horses and a warrior, reduces to 1 HP. Horse pillages a tundra road. Barb galley still in hot pursuit. America and Spain building Great Library.

Turn 107 410 BC Galley runs. Lighthouse due next turn if barbs don't pillage more than 2 shields.

IBT Spear is redlined by a lucky barb horse, but kills it - not so lucky. Warrior kills three more horses. Lighthouse completes. Moscow starts a spear (gritted teeth :cry: ). Cascade starts. No other wonders complete.

Turn 108 390 BC Galley can now outrun teh barb, and heads north across the southern sea towards Moscow for a refit.

Trade WM around for 102 gold. Vickings have a monopoly on Republic. Won't sell.

IBT 3 horses attack our recovered spear and die.

Turn 109 370 BC There are only two horses visible now. Have we seen the last of the uprising?

IBT Nope! More horses show up from the east. Moscow completes a spear, starts an archer.

Turn 110 350 BC New spear fortifies in Moscow. Galley approaches Moscow for its repairs.

Hand down report
Our galley is only down one HP, but I figure it needs all its defences out there so I brought it home. I built a spear so that we can get another worker out to complete the horse road, and started an archer so that once the rush is over we can counter-attack the barb camps and liberate their gold. We can produce a worker in one turn when we are ready to start rebuilding our infrastructure. We've lost some local tundra roads, not a big deal, and a couple of mined and roaded tundra tiles reducing our shield output a bit. We've also lost the mountain road. I don't recommend we rebuild it as we can road almost three tundra tiles in the time it would take.

The wars I started are likely to fizzle out before we are in a position to attack anyone. They are really designed to slow things down and try to weaken some of the civs. I still think our first victim will select him/herself by settling on our island and growing to pop 2. Iroquois and India may be first, but I'm not going to bet on it.

I didn't get a war going in the north east against France yet. Maybe it's worth trying an embbassy with Arabia and doing a deal to get them to fight France, and then the Iroquois might join in?

Here are the embassy screenshots:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam_Delhi_530BC.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/XTeam_Salamanca_530BC.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam_Madrid_530BC.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam_Zimbabwe_530BC.jpg

Good turns Alan!

A couple of thoughts.
If at all possible it would be nice to hold Monarchy from the Civ that we are going to attack until just before we make the attack. I always prefer attacking a civ that is in Anarchy. I know this is unlikely to happen but it's worth mentioning.

Will we be facing more regular and elite units from the enemy because all of them have built the hero epic? Or does that just increase the leader possibilities. Will we be facing enemy armies because they cannot rush wonders or will they rush somthing small like a Lib or a Rax with a leader?

Sorry for the double :( (actually I'm not Really sorry...just a bit)

On the Palace jump - I don't think we want one in this game. With the 1 build city and the map design are teams going to use/abuse the rank exploit? I've never done it so I don't know what the effect is but this game will almost force it, especially if we don't let others settle on our island (or later abandon those cities, which I would think would qualify as an abuse).

I definitely think we need to get a ruling on this. If we are the only team not to use this we will be playing from a fairly large self created hole. If my figuring is correct and we were to do this correctly we could have a huge 2nd core on the northern land mass with around 30 cities all at rank 1 corruption.

Facts:
The closest city to Moscow right now is Santiago at 19 tiles.

If we were to gain control of the complete northern land mass and place our FP in Seville. All towns that are closer to Seville than the next closest town to the Palace would be rank one right?

If we could raze all of the cities that pop up on our homeland and keep people from settling any closer this would be a masive core of cities with little corruption.

Misfit: that's just what I suggested earlier and I can't see how that's abusive.
It's not like we're going out of our way to make the FP rank bug happen. It's pretty much a result of the setup and MB must have known this would become an issue.
I agree we should get a ruling just in case, though :smug:


Edit: this is not a 'gotit' btw. I haven't even read Alan's writeup yet so I don't know whether to give it the :thumbsup: or :thumbdown yet. I'm sure Alan has done his usual :goodjob: though :cool:

Looks very good Alan. :goodjob: Glad to see you have survived the Barbs, sounds like it was a little bit exciting, and I don't think it is over yet! :cry:

@Misfit - M-B had to know that this set up would cause us all to be faced by the Rank Corruption bug. While I think it is fine to ask about the issue, every team has to be facing the same situation and M-B didn't write any rules or extra guidelines regarding it. I think it is part of the scenario somehow.:mischief:

I can't say much more until I have a look at the save and reread Alan's turn log. Will be back in a while. ;)

EDIT - Looking at the scoring graph, I think we had better start thinking of doing something soon! :eek: Team Peanut is headed for the stars. ;)

Way to handle those barb horseys, hopefully this next group will be the last of them.


EDIT - Looking at the scoring graph, I think we had better start thinking of doing something soon! :eek: Team Peanut is headed for the stars. ;)

Looks like they may have gotten their 2nd city around 250 - 450 AD and have acquire more after that.

Team Smackster OTOH looks like they got a 2nd city in 150BC.

We need to finish our horse road and start building a military. I saw in the Bede games that they bypassed size 1 cities and moved straight for the capitals, then they went back and grabbed the other cities later. Once our horses are hooked up we can actually go attack the other landmass try to grab 2 quick cities and sue for peace giving us a chance to strengthen our foothold on their lands.

The trick is to keep their palace moving and keep taking the capital. The capital won't autoraze if it's been in existence for one interturn.

Re the rank corruption bug, I would prefer not to use it to the extent that you are suggesting. If we can take and keep three productive cities that are settled on our home island 8 to ten tiles from Moscow then a second core on the northern or eastern landmass will be pretty low corruption. If we can achieve this I don't see a need to exploit the bug any further.

Re the rank corruption bug, I would prefer not to use it to the extent that you are suggesting. If we can take and keep three productive cities that are settled on our home island 8 to ten tiles from Moscow then a second core on the northern or eastern landmass will be pretty low corruption. If we can achieve this I don't see a need to exploit the bug any further.
I agree with this. I should have stated it more clearly (of course, what you said helped me to focus more on what I meant). :thumbsup: I think we are taking advantage of the bug if we destroy the cities built on our continent instead of capturing them. Until there are cities built near us, there is really nothing we can do about it imho and I don't think we should jump the palace unless it is our best interest to do so. In other words, we shouldn't jump the palace simply because of the bug. :hmm:

I did a little recon and found that M-B has spread the resources around pretty well. Every civ has iron within their boundry or within one expansion of a city. All of the civs have horses except the Vikings and, more notably, the Mongols. All the civs have at least 1 lux resource. Arabia and Keltoi have 3, India, France, Iroquois, Japan, Mongols and Zulu have 2. There are quite a few wheat and cattle scattered around, along with sheep, goats and game. So, the map is pretty balanced, as are the different civs, at this point. There is no one civ to go aftger because of resorce shortage and denial of unit unless we create that shortage.

I think the idea of taking their capital and then chasing it around is pretty sound. It will be interesting to see what the result of the wars Alan started will be.

I think Gator summed up our near term needs quite well. :goodjob:

I don't think razing captured cities on our landmass would be overly exploitive. But I do agree that if the AI is nice to us, the few cities we decide to keep there, will be nice ones (so we won't loose much by keeping them).

I'll of course follow what ever you gentleman decide. But just so we are clear, I was not suggesting that we should jump our palace all over the place. I was suggesting that we leave it where it is and not allow anyone to build close to it giving us the advantage of the romote palace bug without jumping the palace to a remote spot. It was MB that gave us this start I was just trying to figure a way to make the most of it.

It sounds to me as if we are all pretty much in agreement on the corruption bug. :cool:

Let's hope now that our AI friends build cities so they are in perfect RCP to Moscow so we can seize them and begin our conquests! :rolleyes:

Next up, finish them barb horses off, head out to the Barb Camps to collect some gold and finish my ill advised road to horses, along a more direct route, of course. :mischief:

I think this is right

AlanH (barb beater)- Just played
Capt Buttkick UP
DJMGator13 - On deck
leif erikson
Mistfit (trader not traitor)

I've done a map to help with discussion purposes showing who is where. I noted the sea route we can see now in purple. The white questioon marks are possible locations of other sea routes. We will have to watch once if we trade lux or resourses to the southern landmass that we do not declare on a civ that will mess up our route. Right now that would be the Keltoi.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Future_Plans1.JPG

Nice map, Misfit. I think we can also trace sea routes to the southern continents through India, around to the west and south along the coast of the continent and through the straits to the west. It looks like mostly coast and some sea squares. I don't think there are any ocean squares that interrupt that trace. That would get us by the Keltoi. :D

Thanks. Well I guess my comment would be that if we start trading in lux and resourses we need to be aware of the route that it is taking to get there seeing that there will be a lot of warring going on :D

You are quite right to raise this Mistfit. Good thinking and nice map :thumbsup:. I've been bitten before by coastal routes being interrupted, even just by barbs. Until we know some more about the map we really don't know whether there are sear routes anywhere. A single ocean tile will stop trade to the south/east crescent until navigation or magnetism even though we can travel there safely.

Thanks also for posting the roster.

[EDIT] PS. Any chance of some festive snow on my avatar? ;)

PS. Any chance of some festive snow on my avatar?

Sure - I'll do it tomorrow.

Sorry to keep you waiting. I had to work on the house we're building yesterday.
I'm not sure if I can get to it today and know I can't play tomorrow. If we can skip me for now, I can play saturday or sunday...
Sorry guys :sad:

OK ... Are you there, Gator?

AlanH - Just played
Capt Buttkick - skipped
DJMGator13 UP
leif erikson - On deck
Mistfit

Again a big :thumbsup: to all of my team mates for outstanding results in the latest COTM! If Alan Could only figure out how to reprogram his Mac to play C3C we'd be all set :D
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/COTM_results.JPG

Global Ranking Update
Gator - #18
leif - #25
AlanH - #37
MisTfit- #87
Capt. - #96

Now all I need to do is figure out how to play faster. Gator how did play so much better than I did in 1/2 the time?

Yes, I should be able to play later today.

@Mistfit - Faster play comes with being more comfortable with your game. Also, once the QSC is over I only keep highlights in my notes, not the details.

@Mistfit - Faster play comes with being more comfortable with your game.
That's certainly true! I've been uncomfortable in GOTM37 for about 2 weeks :eek:

I think that part of my problem is that I overthink the game somtimes

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/AlanH.JPG
This ones kind of a wintery theme IPO a christmas theme. If you want christmas let me know.

Snow is great! Just what I was looking for. :thanx:

I've been uncomfortable in GOTM37 for about 2 weeks :eek:
You can say that again. I hope I get it finished!! :eek: Too may Christmas Pageants and Concerts that my kids are in. But , of course, they are all excellent! ;)

@Misfit - Looks like you had a good finish in COTM06. I came in last.. :cry: amongst my teamates. Actually, that is no surprise. :lol:

As far as GPR, if you, Alan and The Capt. submitted more games, I would be behind you all there too. GPR seems to be based a lot on regular submissions. If you miss, you drop.

I also wouldn't worry too much about overthinking the game, sometimes I go too quickly and its much more costly when I do. I'm trying to develop a procedure that becomes habit at the end of each turn to thoroughly check all my micromanagement, and it sometimes gets dull and too repetitive. Whenever I don't do it, something always happens that isn't good. :cry:
You guys keep on me and I'll develop that habit, thanks!! :)

Good luck Gator, please get rid of those Barbs and let's get some horses in Moscow. It is almost time to :hammer:

And good luck to the Capt building your house. Wish I was there to help. I didn't know you were really building your Capt.'s Cabin, and here I almost lost it for you a few games back. :blush:

I just finished GOTM37 the other night and posted my spoiler last night. On the mm issue, I usually only concentrate on a few cities and leave the others alone for the most part.

There are more important things to worry about in the game than speed. I keep forgetting to build my FP in most of my games. I'm usually waiting for a Leader to rush a palace but then find that I haven't built my FP. This mistake almost cost me GOTM37.

Snow is great! Just what I was looking for. :thanx:

You are welcome. Two down and 2 to go :D

Sorry to keep you waiting. I had to work on the house we're building yesterday.
I'm not sure if I can get to it today and know I can't play tomorrow. If we can skip me for now, I can play saturday or sunday...
Sorry guys :sad:
Hi Capt., I see you're on. Hope I can get this typed fast enough. :p

Since Gator hasn't posted yet, if you'd like to slip in before me for your turns this weekend, that would be fine with me, as long as the rest of the team agrees, of course. :D

...as long as the rest of the team agrees, of course. :DNo problem here. Let us know if you are available, Captain.

I haven't started yet Capt. I was planning on it tonight, but if you want it first just post. I'll check the posts before I start to play tonight.

I got the impression that the Captain will not be available until tomorrow at the earliest, so I suggest we stick to the plan for Gator to play next. I think leif was only suggesting that, if the Captain noticed his offer while he was lurking, he could pick it up after Gator and before leif's next turn.

I got the impression that the Captain will not be available until tomorrow at the earliest, so I suggest we stick to the plan for Gator to play next. I think leif was only suggesting that, if the Captain noticed his offer while he was lurking, he could pick it up after Gator and before leif's next turn.
Yes, I think Gator should play his turns and if the Capt. would like to play over the weekend, I would be happy to wait until he finishes. :)

Well, I hope we can hustle along a bit soon. We are 30 turns behind the rest of the pack currently. It's not as if turns themselves take a long time at the moment - just the pre-turn discussions and decisions.

Pretty uneventful - horses have stopped for now, but we have 4 active camps on our island.

Preturn - 350BC
no changes

IBT - Kill 3 Bhorses (2 more ride into view 1 from the North and 1 from the East) / AMR building Great Library

Turn 1 - 330BC
galley home to heal

IBT - kill 3 more Bhorses - 1 rides in from N

Turn 2 - 310BC
Moscow archer => galley

IBT - kill 1 Bhorse - no more rode up

Turn 3 - 290BC
our new archer needs some target practice, he redlines killing the last visible horse / move spear and warrior as cover

IBT - FRA are building Great Wall after completing the Pyramids in Paris / cascades to wall, library and HG

Turn 4 - 270BC
archer to moscow to heal

IBT - Bhorse rides up and dies attacking our spear

Turn 5 - 250BC
Moscow galley => worker

IBT - another Bhorse rides up our horse road

Turn 6 - 230BC
Moscow worker => archer
city size 11 as granary was not full
decide to clear some fog with our galleys

IBT - Bhorse dies atacking our spear

Turn 7 - 210BC
Moscow archer => galley
worker starts road repair

IBT - na

Turn 8 - 190BC
:sleep:

IBT - CHN builds Great Library / cascades / SPN builds HG /

Turn 9 - 170BC
:sleep:

IBT - FRA builds Great Wall in Tours

Turn 10 - 150BC
found a 1 tile island 4tiles North of Zimbabwe

Notes
1) I've got the 2 archers and a spear heading after some barb camps
2) galleys just removing fog staying in sea to avoid the occasional Bgalley
3) I made a galley and another will be done next turn, figure we need galley to move troops with and was hoping to get our horse before making more troops
4) we should be on the forest tile next to the horses in 7 turns then we need to road it, we also need another worker for the horse colony

Turnset went very fast - not much to do. Next player should grab and play. Nothing has changed that need discussing. Goal is to get the horses hooked up.

Nice to see you get those Barbs out of the way, Gator. :goodjob: Now to convert some of those camps to cash! :cool:

@Capt - Its too late for me to pick it up, need my beauty :sleep: . If you wish to take the next 10 turns, please post a got it and I'll be gald to pick it up where you leave off.

See you in the morning. :mischief:

Got it.
Thanks for your patience :)

Good work Gator. Onwards and upwards, Captain..

AlanH
Capt Buttkick UP
DJMGator13 - Just played
leif erikson - On deck
Mistfit

Just pulled up the save and noticed we are still a band of Despots. I was wondering if there was a reason we hadn't yet changed to Monarchy?

Once Moscow reaches size 12 again and fills its food bin, I think we should consider another worker to head for the iron mountain and build a colony. We will have 2 spears, one to protect each colony. Some Warriors for Moscow MP duty and a couple of Barb Hunting Archers. Can't wait for horsies!

Just a thought, it might be faster to load an archer onto a galley and go barb hunting from the water. The current camps are in coastal locations and we will have a galley we can use for this purpose.

Very good points.

I didn't switch to Monarchy during my turns because we were building the Lighthouse. I then needed an urgent replacement for our dear departed spear. I must admit I should probably have revolted after that, though. It was in my mind to do it at the start of the turn set, but then .... I didn't :(

And I never even thought about changing the government. With only one city is there anything to be gained by switching now? Other than we can sit out an anarchy period while doing a little roading to the horses.

I haven't checked, but I suspect we can get one or two more shields if we take advantage of the removal of the despot penalty. And once we start adding cities to our empire we'll get more benefit. And we'd do better to get the anarchy out of the way before we start beating our neighbours up.

Despot penalty, oh yeah. I'd say time to change.

And we'd do better to get the anarchy out of the way before we start beating our neighbours up.
I was thinking that we are running out of things to build while we wait for horsies. This would be a good time to get the Anarchy period out of the way. That way, we should have no interruptions when we begin horse production. :thumbsup:

BTW - I :love: my horsies! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I haven't looked at the save again, but I seem to recall that if you get the despot penalty out of the way you can get to a magical 15 spt in Moscow = a horse or a galley every 2 turns.

I haven't looked at the save again, but I seem to recall that if you get the despot penalty out of the way you can get to a magical 15 spt in Moscow = a horse or a galley every 2 turns.
You're right, we will just make 15. I think that we only get one extra shield in Monarchy from the forest with fur. But we will get more food, so we may be able to grow some forests once we have engineering and then we can easily surpass 15 shields. :D

The magic spt numbers are 15, and 18 for knights. Anything else is wasteful at this stage in the game. Useful units cost 30 currently. 18 spt would let us build a knight in 4 turns, or once we have Invention, we can short rush using a longbow at 40 to reduce it to 3 turns at 15 spt.

20 spt becomes optimum once we get to cavalry.

20 spt becomes optimum once we get to cavalry.
Hopefully by then we will have 1/2 the world's cities (or even better all of them) under our control by then and we won't have to rely so much on Moscow.

(Lack of) Progress:
I tried to play on my new comp yesterday, but I must have screwed up the installation procedure cause the game crashed when I tried to contact AI leaders.

I'll get it all sorted, play and post tonight. For now, I have to work :(
I'll switch to monarchy asap.

(Lack of) Progress:
I tried to play on my new comp yesterday, but I must have screwed up the installation procedure cause the game crashed when I tried to contact AI leaders.
I like your old RNG, can you tranfer it to the new machine? :mischief:

In case you didn't know, Alan has put together an all-in-one installation for windows now. :cool: He is so good to us! :goodjob: You can find it << HERE >> (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=106487)

Good luck! ;) :D

You also need to copy some flic files (because I can't type).
Here is a little batch file which will do it for you. Unzip it in the top level directory that contains the Civilization3.exe file, and then double click it.

Well, I got to play it, but the resources are out of place. There's a coal instead of the furs. I knew this wouldn't effect my game so played anyway. Anyone know what my prob is here?

Sgotm5 150 B.C. - 50 A.D.

Preflight - Revolution :eek: Check diplomacy, nothing to trade.
IBT: Moscow riots, like I knew it would...
Turn 1 - 130 B.C. Barb hunters start trek towards northern barb camp. Northern galley move towards Moscow, southern galley explors.
IBT: Some alliances run out.
Turn 2 - 110 B.C. I don't renegotiate deals cause they're still warring and I don't want to waste our money. AI have feudalism, but I can't trade for it from anyone. Move worker and warrior towards horses.
Turn 3 - 90 B.C. Monarchy is on, MM Moscow, 10% lux.
IBT: Our worker-escort kills a barb horse w/o HP loss. Moscow galley --> marketplace. Arabs and Indians are building Sun Tzu.
Turn 4 - 70 B.C. Newly built galley fortifies. Southern galley moves towards Moscow.
IBT: Barb horse appears to the NE of our worker.
Turn 5 - 50 B.C. MM Moscow, 20% lux. Marketplace in 7. Worker road, warrior kills barb horse with 1 hp lost.
IBT: Lincoln wants 340 gold for peace :lol:
Turn 6 - 30 B.C. :coffee: I try not to do as Gator and go to :sleep: :p
IBT: Moscow Spear --> Settler (prebuild for galley).
Turn 7 - 10 B.C. Destroy barb camp, start moving spear towards worker. MM Moscow for marketplace in 4.
IBT: Barb horse S of our worker/warrior.
Turn 8 - 10 A.D. Worker E, Warrior defeats barb horse w/o HP loss. Both our exploring galleys are now fortified in the sea outside Moscow.
IBT: Warrior looses 2 HP to a barb horse.
Turn 9 - 30 A.D. Warrior N. Both archers start moing towards NE barb camp. Worker road.
IBT: Pay Monty a few trinkets and map for an updated map.
Turn 10 - 50 A.D. Warrior E.

Summary: We're in monarchy, marketplace in 1.
I should have moved the spear towards the worker straight away, but no probs so far :cool:
Firaxis score is 110.

Suggestions for next player:
* Watch out for England. She has neither Mono nor Feudalism yet. Might as well do the trade if we can...
* I suggest we build another galley in 2 after the marketplace, then a worker which will coincide nicely with growth.

Sounds like the wrong resource files. Try swapping those out. Alan probably knows exactly which ones to use. I usually just change them until I find a set that works..

Good turns.

The second post in the Maintenance thread has this link (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM4-129f.zip) to the modified resource file set for this game. Drop them in \Civilization III\Art\

Good job, Captain, specially with one eye closed and coal for furs ;)

AlanH
Capt Buttkick - Just played
DJMGator13
leif erikson UP
Mistfit - On deck

Sounds good Capt. :goodjob: Glad to see you got it working, alhtough coal would have been nice. Build a few rails! :lol: :lol:

Got it and will take a break from GOTM 37 tomorrow evening. I don't know if I'll finish GOTM 37, but I'm having a hell of a time with it, although still surviving through 1400. That can't be good for Jason and I have no idea if I can even win any longer. :crazyeye: But I'll try!! :lol: :lol:

@Alan - I managed to download the all-in-one installer for vanilla. What I have is working fine but should I need it, should it be used only with a new install or will it install over what I have without issues? Thanks. Also, it told me it downloaded 23 MB but in the folder it says its size is 18.872 MB?

I'll check out the save in the morning for any questions. :sleep:

I'm having fun with GOTM37 as well. Hovering on the brink of domination, so I can fall back to that if I run out of time, but I want a conquest win. Only me and neoCarthage left, zero research now and for the whole game, and I'm praying I can kill Hannibaline before she gets infantry.

The installer should install over any existing mods to make a working GOTM installation. It only makes backups of three specific existing files that it overwrites, so if you run it on top of an existing GOTM installation it will just overwrite the rest of the files, giving the effect of a repair. Note that it doesn't do the fix that mad-bax mentioned above, as that deals with a SGOTM5-specific bug. But if you run it on your current installation it should not undo what max-bax's script has done.

The Windows installer downloads as a single .exe file, so I'm not sure what you mean by "the folder in it". :hmm: You haven't downloaded the Mac installer have you? They're both in my sig, but the Mac one is in the bottom line as one of the Mac OS X Utilities list.

I'm having fun with GOTM37 as well. Hovering on the brink of domination, so I can fall back to that if I run out of time, but I want a conquest win. Only me and neoCarthage left, zero research now and for the whole game, and I'm praying I can kill Hannibaline before she gets infantry.
Good luck getting there, sounds as though you will win! :goodjob: I'm struggling mightily!! :eek:
The installer should install over any existing mods to make a working GOTM installation. It only makes backups of three specific existing files that it overwrites, so if you run it on top of an existing GOTM installation it will just overwrite the rest of the files, giving the effect of a repair. Note that it doesn't do the fix that mad-bax mentioned above, as that deals with a SGOTM5-specific bug. But if you run it on your current installation it should not undo what max-bax's script has done.
This is exactly what I needed to know, thanks. :cool:
The Windows installer downloads as a single .exe file, so I'm not sure what you mean by "the folder in it". :hmm: You haven't downloaded the Mac installer have you? They're both in my sig, but the Mac one is in the bottom line as one of the Mac OS X Utilities list.
I know it was the windows installer because I took the link from the thread in GOTM section and it was in BOLD type! ;) What I meant to say was that, when I went into the folder on my drive where the installer now resides, the system told me that the file was 18.872 MB in size, not 22.3. I was having trouble with dial-up last night and had to restar it several times so I didn't want to have a fragment, although the system has never reported a file as present for duty that was a fragment. :scan:

Back to the game,
1. Some of our friends are still at war. It is mighty hard to tell with this many civs and the F4 screen. I understand that to change them is "shift" right click. I made a written list of who is at war with who and have to call them up in groups, sort of by region, to see who is doing what to whom. :crazyeye:

A summary:
We are at war with America as are Spain and India.
We are at war with Egypt as is Spain, India has begged out and made peace.
We are at war with the Mongols, alone.
We are at war with France, alone.
We are at war with China as are the Zulus.
I think that is all??

2. Trading.
Japan will trade us Feudalism for World Map plus 296 Gold.
India will trade Feudalism to us for World Map plus 275 Gold.
Spain for World Map plus 290 Gold.
As The Capt said, England is without Feudalism and Monotheism, we could wait a few turns and try for a trade.


3. Builds
The worker has 5 turns left to finish the road near the horses, plus one to move onto the hill and then one to make a colony. So, that means 7 turns to horses. We get marketplace in 1 turn. We will fill the food box in 4 turns.
At 15 spt, we can build a library in 3 turns, then a worker in 1 turn. But I'm not sure we need a library??
We could build 2 galleys and then a worker. This sounds like the best course for our current situation. After that, It looks like more galleys and horsies until we can conquer the world!

4. Strategy.
I think I would like to turn on Spain and get a foothold on the American, Egypt, Indian continent. The disadvantage to that is that we will be between Egypt on one side and America and India on the other.

India is number 3 on the score chart and, I think, will be a tough early opponent. After Spain, we can on to Egypt and then be in a position to take on India and America.

Where we position our galleys to send our troops depends upon who you want to take on first. There is a route of sea squares directly to Spain that we can use. If we decide India first, then I think we should position our galleys on the north side of our island so the horsies can go overland and load to the north. Then the quick trip through the "Jaipur straits" and on to victory.

Well, it's a bit of a worry, 'cos it's certainly 22.3 MBytes here, and I just downloaded it again and it's still 22.3 MBytes.

Your game summary sounds good. I don't see the need for a library. We don't need no books with all those civs out there to teach us the few things we need to know. Let's try to get Feudalism and Monotheism so that we know when Chivalry is on the table. Don't wait too long or the current two-fer opportnity might pass.

I'm surprised we don't have any visitors yet. Sonds like we shall have to acquire our second city overseas. How about Jaipur? it'll be easy to defend against galleys turning up with one warrior at a time (ie typical AI invasion tactics).

PS India will be easier to take down now than when they have dumbos.

I was thinking the same as Alan. If possible we should hit IND first. Of the 4 civs on that landmass, IND will only get stronger as they learn to ride elephants. The other 3 have either past their UU prime (EGY) or have a long time to wait for it (AMR & SPN).

I'd also not trade with IND, I don't like giving gold to someone I'm about to war with.

Well, it's a bit of a worry, 'cos it's certainly 22.3 MBytes here, and I just downloaded it again and it's still 22.3 MBytes.
Thanks, I was afraid of that. I'll try it again. With windoze, it never really reports it exactly right, but that misses by too much. :cry: Usually, if it is incomplete, the system doesn't recognize it. :confused:

It sounds like India it will be then. The only worry is what happens when we are in the middle of the attack and dumbo shows up, India can't be far away from Chivalry, can they? I was also hoping that by attacking from the other side, India would have time to found a city or two on our island. Of course, America could do so as well, or, more possible, the east coast civs. I'll try to get things set up with Galleys in the north ready to receive horsemen.

Are you sure you don't want to go for their capital first? Delhi is on the coast. There is a hill 2 squares to the SE of Delhi our units could offload on. If we sent a couple of Spears to hold the fort for the Horsies, we could attack the next turn. The question would be the mathematics of it; How many Horsies?, How many Galleys and How much time to put it all together?

I don't really see what we gain by attacking Jaipur first, unless you want it as a base to operate from in the north. It can't really grow or produce anything for us as it is 2 mountains and some coast squares. By attacking it, we alert India to our intentions. I think it might be better to focus our resources on a target and take something that gives us what we need, a place we can expand from. Of course, I could be very wrong :blush: (wouldn't be the first time), but I'd like to hear the case for Jaipur. :help:

I think I can still play this evening while we hash out the strategy, keeping it moving. Will try to get Feudalism early and build galleys and a worker while setting up assets for a move towards India in the north. Of course, will check in before I start in case we need to have more discussion. :D

EDIT - spelling and grammar. ;)

The biggest problem with India's War Elephant is that it does not require any resourses to produce, so we can't even pilliage their resourses. I think that Jaipur should be able to be gotten in a peace settlement as it will never grow very big.

Good point on Jaipur, Mistfit. We may indeed be able to claim that one in a peace deal.

I've found that if you can pound them as they get WE you can limit the number they produce. To me it seems the AI starts producing defensive units instead of offensive units if you are capturing cities from them. I did that a few GOTM back where IND was on the same start and I was at war with them when they learned Chivalry. I captured over 10 cities and only saw 1 WE.

The other thing is are they working on any Wonders? If they are then they aren't making elephants. Plus with some unsettled land they are also probably still producing some settlers.

I agree on Jaipur. I hadn't looked at the terrain, but was hoping for a low corruption city not too far from Moscow. However, if it isn't productive there's not much to be gained by taking it apart. It doesn't even protect our cultural borders as it's a small island. I always feel there's something slightly wrong that the speed of a ship is the same in friendly or enemy waters.

I always feel there's something slightly wrong that the speed of a ship is the same in friendly or enemy waters.

Was the naval movement differential put in to limit ship chaining? Only being able to move 2 coastal tiles in a turn hurts. Puts more emphasis on the need for the Lighthouse.

I've had no problem with ship chaining with differential naval movement. Sure, you have a short coastal leg, but then the ocean legs are nice and long. It also sometimes needs some subtle micrro-management, because of the effect of movement into and out of harbour. I don't recall Cracker's original reasoning for differential movement, though. There's a thread all about it linked from the GOTM Reference thread. Is it included in C3C?

Is it included in C3C?
Nope
I agree on Jaipur
Mark it down on the calander :D Alan agrees with me on somthing

Just a quick point on builds:
there's no need to buld two galleys before the worker. If we churn out the worker one turn before the granary is full, that's as perfect as a full granary. There will always be one turn at size 11 because we don't have a hospital yet.

I agree on India being a nice target and that time is urgent. If you look at the map, you'll notice that America also have a one-tile island city. We need to watch out for those or we'll have to wait to marines. Please make sure you don't jump AI capitols to a one-tile island city ;)

If we do the ship chaining thing someone is going to have to draw me a picture and some pretty detailed instructions. I've just recently been able to figure these out in C3C - The only way that is possible is because I can rename the galleys so I know which ones I'm pulling from and adding to. I'm sorry in advance if I mess this up.

Ship chaining is no big deal. All it does is to get your first troops into position a couple of turns early, and then keep them coming. The rate of delivery of troops is the same whether yuo use it or not, and it's a lot of hassle to keep the pipeline filled and flowing. As you say, loading and unloading units is a bit hit and miss in vanilla with no unit names. I only really use it if I have an urgent need to get reinforcements into a battle zone, they are on the wrong side of the ocean, and I need them NOW!

Well I know that I mussed up yours and Gators hard work setting them up in Jumpmasters so if you want them to look the same as when you give me the turns I'll have to practice :D

The good news is that we have horses and some Horsemen. I also didn't lose anything. :eek: The only bad news is no Chivalry yet.

Here is << The Save >> (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Xteam_SG005_AD0250_01.SAV)

Now for the turn log:

Turn 130 – 50 AD
Pre-flight.
Awaken 2 Vet Galleys and begin moving them north to pre-position for attack on India (Gee, I love the way that sounds!)
Decide to wait a turn on trading to check on England.
Press enter.

IBT
The Vikings come calling. They want to trade World Maps, and they want me to give them 1 Gold. I ignore them.
Moscow Marketplace => Galley.
We are informed that the Indians are building Sun Tzu’s Art of War, nice thing to capture. The Spanish are also building it.

Turn 131 – 70 AD
Wake Galley in Moscow and begin movement north.
Archers head east to Barb Camps.
Move Elite Spear towards Horsie Hill.
Fortify Warrior guarding eqWorker to heal.
In checking around for trade, I see that the Vikings have Theology? Didn’t expect them to be a scientific bonanza, must have popped a hut?
I finally decide to trade with the Iroquois. They give us Feudalism for World Map plus 287 Gold. BTW – They have Republic.
Had a crash when trying to complete trade with the Iroquois, so I download M-B’s flic bat file and unzip it, then try again. Have to reboot the system, I love windoze??
Reload from the 70AD autosave and make the same moves as noted above.
Run through the trading screens all the civs. The French, Zulu and Vikings have Theology.

IBT
The Egyptians come calling. They offer peace for Monotheism. After I finish laughing, I have them thrown out.
The French, Chinese and Indians are building Sun Tzu’s.

Tunr 132 – 90 AD
Galleys north.
Archers south and east.
No excitement. Check trades.
Note: We are up Monotheism and Feudalism with both the English and the Mongols, a good reason to make peace with the Mongols would be to get something from then, but not until something is available.

IBT
Moscow Galley => Worker.
The Americans are building Sun Tzu’s.

Turn 133 – 110 AD
Archers continue.
Spear continues.
Galleys North.
Trades – India has picked up Theology as well. But where is Chivalry?

IBT
The Arabs come calling and demand our World Map. Just for fun, I tell him to go fly a carpet and he declares on us.
Moscow Worker => Galley.
The Indians are building Sun Tzu’s, again!

Turn 134 – 130 AD
MM Moscow to get back to 15 shields per turn.
Everything keeps moving.
New Worker N.
As the galleys pass the southern Jaipur Straits, a Barb Camp is sighted on the northern tip of our island.
Checking on trades.
America now has Theology as well.
Change lux sldier to 10%, 6 happy and 5 unhappy.
For the most part, the wars are beginning to end amongst our fellow AI civs.

IBT
The Zulus come demanding our World map plus 25 Gold. I throw him out as well and he declares on us.
The Kelts come courting us. They want to trade The Republic to us for 340 Gold. I decide to wait as we don’t need it right now.
A Barb Horseman shows up way out to the east, where the Archers are headed.

Turn 135 – 150 AD
Archers move onto mountain near Barb Horses.
Worker in the east moves onto Horse Mountain.
Elite Spear joins the worker.
New Worker moves toward Iron Mountain.
Wake Elite Warrior and begin his trip home to Moscow.
Check Trades.
Aztecs now have Theology.
Still 2 techs up on England and Mongols.
Change lux tax to 0%, 6 Happy and 6 Unhappy? Reverse War Weariness perhaps as Arabs and Zulu declare on us? Good for the economy as we are making 44 GPT!

IBT
The Mongols come calling. They want Feudalism for peace. See ya!!
The French come calling and they want 461 Gold plus 3 GPT for peace, NOT!!
Barb Horse attacks our Archers and, after losing 1 HP to defensive free shot, dies after inflicting 1 HP damage.
Moscow Galley => Galley as pre-build for Horsie.
The Americans and Japanese are building Sun Tzu’s.

Turn 136 – 170 AD
Archers move toward eastern Barb Camp.
Elite Spear fortifies on Horsie Hill.
Worker creates Horsie Colony!!
Change production in Moscow to Horsies!!
Galley in Moscow awaits first Horse delivery.
Worker in west roads.
Decide to send 1 Galley to eastern Barb Camp with Archers. I want to transport the Archers back to the Jaipur Straits to attack the northern Barb Camp.
Check trades.

IBT
ZZzzz.

Turn 137 – 190 AD
Archers move to attack position.
Galleys are positioned in sea squares away from harm from passing Barb Galleys.
England has learned the Republic and will trade it for Feudalism, World Map plus 25 Gold. I decide to wait.
Check trades.
Still holding at 0% lux.

IBT
America and Spain have signed a peace treaty.
Barb Horseman are showing up to the west and south.
We build our first Horsie!! Continue with Horseman.
The Iroquois are building Sun Tzu’s.

Turn 138 – 210 AD
Vet Archer attacks Barb Warrior in Camp and defeats him losing 1 HP.
Move Warrior into Moscow.
Load Horse onto Galley.
Wake Vet Spear and move him north.
Check for trades.
England has Monotheism. I decide to trade Feudalism plus World Map to England in exchange for The Republic. Maybe she will research Chivalry?
Still, no one has Chivalry.

IBT
Our Horse Colony I sattacked by a Barb Spear, who dies in frustration, taking 1 HP from our Spear.
A Barb Horse moves onto the Iron Mountain! Don’t the Barbs know resource denial is against the GOTM rules??

Turn 139 – 230 AD
Archers move onto Galley which heads for Jaipur Straits.
Vet Spear moves to cover our Worker.
Warrior fortifies in Moscow.
Check trades.
France has Engineering.
Vikings have Engineering and want World Map plus 520 Gold. I do not make the deal as I want to hold the gold for Chivalry.
India also has Engineering and wants World Map plus 513 gold for it. No deal, yet.
Go figure, this always happens to us. We play against civs that have their UU based upon Chivalry and they research everything but!!:shakehead

IBT
Barb Horse on Iron Mountain attacks Vet Spear and he defends without loss.
Moscow Horse => Horse.
The French are building The Sistine Chapel.

Turn 140 – 250 AD
Galley with 2 Archers aboard moves near Barb Camp.
Galley fortifies in Galley stack NE of our island, I decide to skip turn so it lights up for next player, you won’t have to go looking for it.
Worker moves onto Iron Mountain along with Spear, sees a Barb to the north.
Horse moves north.
Check trades.
We are up Feudalism versus Egypt.
We are up Feudalism, Monotheism and Republic on the Mongols.
Aztecs, America, France, Vikings , India and China are ahead Theology
France, China, India and Vikings are ahead Engineering.
Iroquois, Keltoi, England, Spain and Japan are even.
Zulu and Arabs refuse our envoys.

After Action Report.
We are at Pop 12 with a full food box. Lux rate and Research are set to 0%. We are making 42 GPT and have 704 gold in the treasury, saved for purchasing Chivalry. I would keep an eye on the F1 screen as this 0% lux can’t last forever.

Our military consists of 1 worker who is standing on Iron Mountain with a Spear waiting to form a Colony. There are 2 Warriors in Moscow on MP duty. We have 2 Archers on a Galley headed for a Barb Camp in the north. There are 5 Galleys, two are running units to Barb Camps while the other 3 are stacked NE of our island in sea squares away from roaming barb Galleys. We have 2 Horsies, one headed north of Moscow Barb Hunting and the other on a Galley in the south getting reayd to hunt a Barb Colony.

We are at war with Egypt, America, Arabs, France, Zulus, China, and Mongols. All will talk with us about peace except Arabs and Zulus but they want a lot of gold for the priviledge. The wars in the south between AI civs have subsided and I didn’t renew them as I was saving gold for Chivalry.

Our firaxis score is 113 and we are dead last. France lead with a firaxis score of 364. Our Jason score is 74.

Good luck Misfit. Have fun Barb Hunting and preparing to visit India! :hammer:

Time for some :sleep: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well done leif.

I think not having Chivalry is 'A Good Thing'. We want lots of horsies before we trade for Chivalry, because when we know it so will India, and we really need to beat Gandhi up before he gets Heffalumps, so lots of horses are needed asap :hammer:

AlanH - On deck
Capt Buttkick
DJMGator13
leif erikson - Just played
Mistfit UP

Go for it Mistfit.

I think not having Chivalry is 'A Good Thing'. We want lots of horsies before we trade for Chivalry, because when we know it so will India, and we really need to beat Gandhi up before he gets Heffalumps, so lots of horses are needed asap :hammer:
I'm unsure about this. Not to be a pessimist, but wanting to portray the other side, I'm not sure about attacking an enemy with Horsemen who has Pikes and who may get their UU and a Golden Age sometime during the initial phase of the struggle (It only requires 1 War Elephant):eek: . It would be great if they by-pass Chivalry, but I think it may show up during Misfit's turns and, if not, certainly during Alan's?? :crazyeye: I would rather try to plan for this eventuality, but am unsure of the answer as we need to start something soon. However, if you guys tell me everything will be OK, I have faith in you. :salute:

We may want to build another worker and extend the road to the north to speed units to the pick-up point for Galleys and a trip to India. :hammer:

Ok - I think I have this one figured out.

No MM'ing - right now.
Building only Horses.
Leave them in Moscow for upgrade.

Sounds pretty straight forward.

I think the best Tech out there right now is Engineering for the movement bonus. If I see a good chance there should i take it?

I'm unsure about this.Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. The GOTM 37 end game was a hard day's night. My point is simply that the later Chivalry show up he better prepared we'll be. We'll have more cheap horses to upgrade, and more cash to use to buy Chivalry and to use for the upgrades to knights. If it showed up during your turns you wouldn't have been able to use it so there would be no point it buying it. We want lots of horses to upgrade before we buy Chivalry. The earlier India gets Chivalry the more elephants we'll have to face when we are ready.

@Mistfit: I'm not sure about Engineering. I haven't looked at how many rivers we have to cross or how much money we have stashed away. I'm guessing the first priority for trading and for our cash will be Chivalry and upgrade money. But it's your call :D

My thoughts on engineering were that if I could get a great deal and not bankrupt ourselves I'd make the trade otherwise we can try to pick it up in peace agreements after we've laid waste to the Indians :hammer:

Side Note: I've never completed a conquest game before. I presume the idea is to get close to the 66% and then start razing cities. Is there more to it than that? What kind of date do you anticipate us to win? Where will we be in regards to tech?

Edit:
Please make sure you don't jump AI capitols to a one-tile island city
Agreed. I have always found it useful to buy/trade for a territory map the turn before going to war to see all of the civ's holdings