SGOTM5 - Russia. Game Thread Xteam.

Hi everyone, and welcome to the SGOTM5 Game thread.

Note: EVERYONE will have to install the correct resource graphics whether or not they have played SGOTM4.


Here is the start position.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5-starta.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5-startb.jpg

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Russia
World size - Large, 25% land give or take.
Difficulty Regent - but plays harder.
The map is handbuilt, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

Here are a couple of links you might find useful.

The original GOTM23 Announcement. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/gotm23_arabs.shtml)
The Constitution (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1733966&postcount=61)
The GOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=71788)
SGOTM5 Maintenance Thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=105346)

This Months' sponsored variant is OBCC - One Built City Conquest the rules for which are as follows.

1. You may never build a settler.
2. You must win by conquest victory condition.

Hi everyone. Please sign in when you are ready, and we'll get the preflight discussions going.

I'm very intrigued by this start. I assume no one thinks we should settle on the spot :rolleyes: So the first question in my mind is which way we head to build the only city we'll ever found ourselves. The only breadcrumb I can see is the river starting at the SE mountain.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam_CoA.gif
Mistifit signing in for duty. Again thank you for picking me up for this SGOTM challenge. I've played SG's with both Alan and Gator.
For Capt Buttkick and leif erikson I am a Monarch/Emp level player. I live in the Eastern Standard time zone (which is GMT -5 IIRC) I'm normally on line through the day 6A to 6P most days. I lurked your game thread last game and thouroughly enjoyed all of your discussions before and between turns. Have no fear I can promise one thing for this game...I will do nothing but help you in the King's of Spam Award.
I will warn you though, as it says in my sig I do own 2 wooden utensils from the SGOTM. (we need diferent award for this one though a laurel of some sort would be nice)

BTW the img. above is the Russian Coat of Arms

Welcome to our small but very verbose band of lunatics, Mistfit. :wavey:

I think we all know the ground rules for the SG aspects of the team activity, but please can everyone make sure they read the game modifications list in m-b's maintenance thread. He's played around with the game mechanics a bit, and some of the changes are quite fundamental. Eg no SGLs :eek: no settlers from huts :eek: :eek:

As Russia We Are Scientific and Expansionist right? Giving us Bronze working and pottery. I've put a bit of thought into the start here.

I think we have 2 choices

A. Look at all possiblilities before making the decision

Turn 1
Scout S - E to Mtn with the river
Worker - W
Settler stays put unless a great start is seen

Turn 2
Scout N - NW
Worker W to Mtn (this one may have a river as well - there is somthing at the bottom of the Mtn in the snap shot)
Settler stays put unless a great start is seen at the second mtn

Turn 3
Scout NW - N to 3rd Mtn.
Worker and Settler to which ever we decide on.

The problem with checking out all three is going to be we've wasted 3 turns and it will take at least 4 to 5 turns to get the city completely out of the tundra from the start.

B. Go blindly sending all units towards the one semi-sure direction (SE)

I've opened the start save and confirmed that we can see the start of a river flowing south from the SW mountain in the screenshot. So we have at least two breadcrumbs. Purely for symmetry, I wouldn't be surprised if we found a third river starting from the northern mountain as well. It may be that there are equal starts available whichever direction you head in, as anything else looks like too much of a lottery.

Recent discussions about goodie huts in the GOTM forum indicate that M-B is against random factors that can have a big influence on the game, and we can already see that he has put that into action here with the removal of goodie hut settlers.

The changes I've made to the base rules are an experiment only. Please feel free to comment on them as you play, in the spoilers and in the maintenance thread. I've got no intention of foisting these changes on people if they don't want them.

[QUOTE=Mistfit]I will warn you though, as it says in my sig I do own 2 wooden utensils from the SGOTM. (we need diferent award for this one though a laurel of some sort would be nice)[\QUOTE]
@Misfit-While I am sure you are proud of your spoons, they are only good for firewood here. :lol: Please use them to keep your mousehand warm as we search for a home away from the tundra. :devil2:
Welcome to Spam Central, home of the insanely twitching fingers of the XMen!! :king: Thought I would check in and say welcome back to my comrades. :salute:

I have also been thinking about this start. As I have said, I am not much of a fog gazer but have blown the start up to 5 times its size and done an analysis. The pic is attached below. Interesting Alan that you were thinking about breadcrumbs, because that is what initially guided me as well. I also agree that there is amazing symmetry here. And I think that Alan is right that there may very well be a river to the north as well. The only thing that seems to be missing is a forest square to the SW, as there is one to the NW and one to the NE? Looking up close, the tundra seems to follow around the mountains as well. I see no clear advantage in choosing one over another, except that we know there are rivers to the west and SE, while we are unsure of the north.

Based upon all this, I would recommend that we consider sending the Scout to the western mountain as there is a forest to the NE we could chop if we need early shields or, perhaps better terrain to the south with the river. It appears to provide the greatest opportunity for choice of terrain. Based upon what we see, we can then decide if we should check out the other mountains as suggested by Misfit.

BTW Misfit - your scheme of manuever of the Scout and Worker were exactly my answer as well. Since the game is in Regent, the time to find the best settlement should be worth the effort, as long as it isn't too excessive. I think I also agree with Alan that M-B doesn't seem like the type to make this a lottery, but perhaps by making it a regent game, he is encouraging us to take our time to make sure we pick the right place to begin this journey. :coffee:

Just opened up the save and was surprised by what I saw. I have Snoopy's installed and there is more detail, as per the pic attached. There are more forests, every other square it seems. I still cannot confirm a river in the north, but I am confident that it exists. Thought this might "help" us see a little better. :mischief:

The forests are visible in the normal graphics as well, but they're not going to feed our hungry families.

It seems wasteful to sit the settler down when she could join in the hunt for home. From what we can see I would vote for a scout move S,E first. If that shows up any indication of promising landscape I would move the settler in that general direction immediately as you suggest. If the scout just sees tundra and forest then we know we probably don't want to go that way, so we might as well move the settler W and worker N immediately. That way we expose some more tiles and we are in a position to climb both the other mountains on the next turn if we need to. In two turns we see the view from all the mountains instead of taking four.

The forests are visible in the normal graphics as well, but they're not going to feed our hungry families.
Yes, that is why I was thinking of moving the Scout west first, until I saw the additional forests. We are going to need some grass to make our gardens grow.
It seems wasteful to sit the settler down when she could join in the hunt for home. From what we can see I would vote for a scout move S,E first.
After sleeping on it, I believe that we will find relatively the same start conditions no matter which direction we move. I think your scheme to move all the units is valid. Once we hear from everyone, perhaps you should load the game, move the Scout, take a screenie and post it. Of course if it is all tundra :eek: , then continue to move as you suggest until someone finds something useful???? ;)

Then we will know why it is at Regent level, so we have some chance to catch up. :mischief:

Hello team, sorry I did not post last night but I was watching the big game and then when I went online my virus warning came up. Spent an hour running through virusscan, spybot and adaware. Seems like everything is OK.

Initial thought on the Map: Cold and it reminds me of the Mickey Mouse Ice Cream Bars they sell at Disney.

I agree with Alan that we should move the settler as well.

I was thinking along the lines of this:

Turn1
Nanook W W to mt
Worker N
Settler SE (only because we see more forest this way)

Turn 2 (depending on what turn 1 reveals)
Worker N to mt
settler SE to mt
Nanook whichever way exposes more tiles (W W or S S) or to help investigate anything seen by the worker & settler

I was originally thinking about the settler doing the W W move but if we "feel" SE may be more productive lets take the settler that way.

MB posted this in the maintenance thread
Edit: I have also caught an error which has been around for nearly two weeks. The land form is 25% Land, and not 75%.

That's a pretty small map, so hopefully we should find some better tiles quickly.

EDIT: I dl'd the test file. Based on the description given on the resource files needed I thought I could run this in my normal (modded thru GOTM32) GOTM fileset, but my sheep looked a lot like goats and the fur looked like coal. So I opened the file in my SGOT04 fileset and it displayed correctly, sheep were sheep and fur was fur.

Hi Gator, Hope the big game came out "right", like the new avatar BTW.
:goodjob:

Would like to pick up on something Alan pointed out.
Recent discussions about goodie huts in the GOTM forum indicate that M-B is against random factors that can have a big influence on the game, and we can already see that he has put that into action here with the removal of goodie hut settlers.
If this is true, should we consider "putting our eggs in one basket", as it were. Trusting that M-B :mischief: would even out the starts would mean moving everything to the SE until we find someplace where we can reasonably set up house.

I think the dilema M-B is setting up for us is the trade-off of how much time we spend to find "the best spot" versus making a decision and committing ourselves to a course of action. Perhaps based upon faith in M-B's philosophy. :confused: Of course, I could be "all wet" too. :blush:

The only thing about trying to cover all the bases :scan: that worries me is splitting up our assets, requiring more time to get them back and begin being effective. So the "cost" of covering all the possibilities is great enough to put us behind in developing the only city we can build.

A thought for consideration, or maybe not?? :crazyeye:

Hi, everyone :wavey:
Conquest, just what this team was made for :cool: Let's give misfit his first sgotm award apart from spoons :mischief:

I agree with Gator that the scout should move W W. We don't know if there ar more mountains out there, but if none exists to spoil our view, N N or W W will reveal the most squares.
Leif: I think we probably should put the settler and the worker in the same basket ;), but the scout might as well explore somewhere else. So I propose W W with the scout, if nothing is found, start moving to the SE mountain with our settler/worker pair.

While I am sure you are proud of your spoons, they are only good for firewood here. Please use them to keep your mousehand warm as we search for a home away from the tundra.
I've all ready set them to torch.

The more I think of it the more I'm leaning towards moving the scout in any one of the three directions (W and SE the more likely) and if we see anything of promise send the rest of the troops that direction.

Alan - Do we know our opponents yet? When you opened the save did you check space race?

Victory Conditions - Are we going for quick or high scoring (I know those are not mutually exclusive) - The bad thing about regent is the snail pace of research by the AI. With only 25% land Domination seems like a good way to go.

(Edited my figures - I read that the land size is large not std)

Also I think that first impressions would seem that we would not need a Granary but I wonder if we shouldnt take advantage of being able to get one early because we will want to get our one native city up to max speed asap. We are also going to need quite a few workers to pave the way to the front and for setting up colonies on needed resourses.

My initial thoughts would be to pop another scout and then go granary with a chop and a rax with a chop and then start pumping out warriors or archers asap.

I know this is kind of stream of thought and rambling a bit but I want to get the ideas out there before they flee my feable head here.

I've all ready set them to torch.
Very glad to have you onboard Misfit!! :thumbsup:
:beer:
Victory Conditions - Are we going for quick or high scoring (I know those are not mutually exclusive) - The bad thing about regent is the snail pace of research by the AI. With only 25% land Domination seems like a good way to go.
Conquest is the only victory condition for the Gold!!
I know this is kind of stream of thought and rambling a bit but I want to get the ideas out there before they flee my feable head here.
That is how we work around here. Ramble to your heart's content. One of us will find some meaning and, together, we can put it all together into an action plan, hopefully! :rolleyes: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Things are starting to gel, waiting to hear more from our other teamates.

@Gator:

I agree on moves, except that I would move the settler E rather than SE, as I think it exposes more tiles. He'll be moving away from the tiles the scout can see from the western mountain, and also see past the mountain better, I suspect.

Remember it's 25% of a large map. I think that's 65 x 130 tiles. So 25% is over 2000 tiles, and is comparable to the land area on a standard map with 60% water. The effect of the large map will be to put land masses futher apart, to slow the tech pace down, and to reduce corruption in a large empire.

You need to use M-B's special resource files to see the resources correctly. They've never been published before as far as I know.

@Mistfit:

F10 - I didn't, but I have now ...

Victory condition - if we are going for gold then Conquest is the only option. That's the second C in OBCC.

Build order - I'm pleased someone's thinking about it :thumbsup:. I haven't given it any thought myself.

Thanks leif... I just noticed that the land area is Lg not std so conquest is the way to go. I've never completed a personal game with that victory condition...this should be a fun :hammer: game. Now where are those Mongol Hordes?

Edit: the cruelest trick that MB could play on us would be to have us on an island by ourselves :lol:

@Gator:
I agree on moves, except that I would move the settler E rather than SE, as I think it exposes more tiles. He'll be moving away from the tiles the scout can see from the western mountain, and also see past the mountain better, I suspect.
@Alan and Gator-Do you think it is more important to "see" everything than to keep the settler and worker together? What advantage do we gain from doing this and do we pass up any advantages?
@Mistfit:
F10 - I didn't, but I have now ...

Looks like an awful lot of civs for a smaller area. Thankfully, it is regent so the AI will be slower in expansion and the tech pace shouldn't be very fast. With all that water, we'll need a coastal location sooner or later, but we can capture that.

I'm not sure, but I *think* there's only one scientific civ among our rivals - Keltoi? That would level the playing field for us vs. PTW.

EDIT: @ leif: I'm not sure about keeping the worker and settler together. If they go off in separate directions for two turns then we know that it will take three turns to get the worker back to within one tile of the capital, give or take, depending on whether the settler continues in the initial direction and whether we need to get the worker across town. Three worker turns is not many - one road. It may give us visibility of a resource worth colonising later, but on the other hand we can explore fast if we build a second scout. :hmm:

EDIT: @ leif: I'm not sure about keeping the worker and settler together. If they go off in separate directions for two turns then we know that it will take three turns to get the worker back to within one tile of the capital, give or take, depending on whether the settler continues in the initial direction and whether we need to get the worker across town. Three worker turns is not many - one road. It may give us visibility of a resource worth colonising later, but on the other hand we can explore fast if we build a second scout. :hmm:
If we count from the time the city is founded, then you're right. If we count from the start of the game, then it is a little bit different thing. It could be 7 or 8 worker turns before he can effectively begin his mission, perhaps more. Depends how far the settler has to travel.

Of course, I could be wrong as I am assuming that the best place to settle, or one of them, will be in the SE. If it happens to be in the north, then the worker will have much done before the settler gets there. :crazyeye:

If our goal is to get up and productive ASAP, then I would suggest we keep the worker and settler together. The sequence would look like this:
Turn 1
Scout W and W. Worker and Settler E.

Turn 2
Scout either N and NE or E and NE. Worker and Settler south.

Turn 3
Scout moves onto northern mountain, then we can decide where to move the settler and worker.

We achieve the same coverage though we lose half a turn. If SE is where we decide to go, then we are ahead of the game. If not, well, we have some turns to use getting to where we need to go. :crazyeye:

Something to consider? ;)

I don't think you'd start the worker where he stands. He has to get within a tile or two of the captital to be of any use initially. Starting a road or something a long way from where we settle makes little sense. early in the game. So I believe my analysis is correct and it would be a 3 turn-ish delay in getting started. But we come to the same conclusion, as I think the extra visibility is not worth that 3 turn delay.

So I believe my analysis is correct and it would be a 3 turn-ish delay in getting started. But we come to the same conclusion, as I think the extra visibility is not worth that 3 turn delay.
I agree. I think what you're saying is that the worker and settler can move in the same direction along separate paths to reveal as many tiles as possible, I would guess to the SE. The Scout, in 2 and a half turns, can cover both the western and northern mountains. If we see something exciting, we can move the settler and worker in that direction.

Once we get settled, we will have Pottery and Bronze Working, so we can build that Granary that Misfit wants. I'd like to see the start before we decide that. I think we will have to do a lot of research ourselves, so we need to get up the tree to Literature fairly soon. We also need to conquer to grow, so Warrior Code will be important because we don't need any resources to build Archers. Who knows where the Iron and Horses will be?? :cry:

Yep! Looks like an early archer rush will be in order, to get our hands on some territory. But remember we have to wait for cities to grow before taking them (except capitals). We don't want to raze them.

Sounds good to me as well. Can someone play up until the time of seeing all of the views from the mountains and report back with some screenies to do some more strategic planning?

OK. I suggest I play one or two turns. My proposed sequence is:

Turn 1: Scout W, W to mountain.
If something special visible, stop and discuss.
Else worker N, settler E.
If anthing significant, stop and discuss.

Else:
Turn 2: settler S to mountain.
If settler sees anything special stop and discuss.
Else worker N to mountain.
Stop and discuss.

Any comments?

Take good screenies! You know how I love Dot Maps. :hmm: with the AI deciding where all of your cities will go I guess I won't be doing any of those

O.K. Let's see where this takes us? Good luck. :scan: Hope you see more than Tundra. ;)

Here you go. I didn't get past the first step in my plan before I saw a cow and grass on a river near the coast. So. Do we hotfoot it for that area?

Yup a cow is good enough for me to warrant moving in that direction.

Edit: Move them one tile to the West. Then go stand on the cow. If it's all coast we can always change our minds.

We started already :eek: - no problem I was just working up a plan to reveal the max tiles in 2 1/2 turns, leaving the worker and settler unmoved.

First move is scout W W as we did, so no loss. Here is my plan for reference. I would continue the scout moves as I diagramed but with the cow revealed I'd start the settler and worker that way ignoring my south and east moves with them.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam05_02.jpg

Turn1
Scout W W
settler S
worker E
reveals 26 tiles (highlighted in yellow)

Turn2
optimal scout move would be N N (but goal is to reach the mt by turn 3) - we gain those 3 most NW tiles if we can go N N and still get the mt on turn 3
settler E to mt
worker E

Turn 3
Scout E E to mt (or whatever it takes to get to the mt)

should have all the dotted tiles (about 59) visible before needing to move worker & settler this turn - hopefully we can find a spot and start our settler to the site in turn 3

Since we found a good spot right off the bat there's no need to send worker and settler in the other direction. I'd move them towards the cow and river. This also gives us ocean access without having to capture a city.

------------------------------------------

Here is a surprise I found when compliling the list of our enemies (confirmed by 2nd pic).


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam05_03.jpg


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam05_01.jpg

Interesting traits for Russia, and I was wrong about the Kelts? Hmm! So are we scientific? Probably not, meaning there are no scientific civs in the game.

Shall I play on then? I'll move the settler and worker to get them to the cow and coast as fast as possible, and scout as much territory as I can. I can stop in four turns or so, at the point where might be about to settle and we can talk again. At that point we need to work out what we are going to research and we'll be able to see what worker tasks to do and decide what to build.

I prefer that we debate this phase rather than just play it unilaterally, as our first/only city build is so crucial. Is that OK?

The announcement thread does say that the starting techs were altered. Traits have not been tampered with. Russia is exp. and scientific as usual.

Perhaps you can work out why Russias starting techs were altered later. :)

Playing a few more turns sounds good. Llooking at your image it looks like more grass land down there across the river. You might even go ahead and send the scout there next turn to uncover more area and go back to the tundra mountains later. We need a spot with a good mix of food and shields.

Agree with the need to discuss so pics like you did are helpful.

Did MB say anything about the tech change? Civ Assist shows us as sci & exp.

EDIT: crossed with MB's post.

Turn 0 4000 BC. Settler SW to expose another tile - nothing new. Worker W.

Turn 1 3950 BC. Scout W, W and sees a BG and game over the water on forest/tundra. Settler W. Worker W.

Turn 2 3900 BC. Scout S, S sees another game in forest/grass and furs and goodie hut. Worker W, still heading for cow. Settler W.

I went west and south with the Scout as w needed to know what we had available for the settler. I can also see a fish in the fog edge south of the Scout, but we don't know if that is fresh water. If it were then we would get 3 fpt from it in despotism, but it's still not as powerful a tile as the cow, of course.

We have a choice to make. Based on what we can see now we can get the cow, furs and grass/forest/game in our initial city radius by settling on the BG or on the forest tile SE of it. Neither of these options pops the goodie hut or reaches the game across the water after first expansion.

In either location, Moscow will support a population of 11 in despotism if we irrigate the game and cow, rising to 12 in a better government. We trade off settling a BG vs reaching the cow during the first ten turns after founding.

Thoughts?

Good job Alan!! :goodjob: That cow sure looks nice.

I think I like the forest square SE of the BG, next to the fur. After 10 turns, we'll have game with a forest that we can chop and irrigate, a cow on a river, and a fur. There are also forest tiles availble to use for shields until we get into a better government. I would really hate to waste a BG by settling on it.

BTW - I have a feeling that we started with Alphabet because we ought to hightail it to Map Making. There seems to be an awful lot of water around here. I hope we're not on an island by ourselves, but "I have a terrible feeling about this!" ;)

Edit - A second priority for research is Warrior Code and Archers! Our initial build priorities probably should include at least one more Scout, let's find out quickly where we are and what is around us. :mischief:
Another thought, I wonder if we begin with Writing and hope to pop Warrior Code from a hut?

EDIT2 - Nice analysis Gator, sorry, forgot to thank you! :blush:

I think the forest is better as well. If we move nearer the cow we swap tundra for coast. We can mine the tundra for shields, but we can't mine the sea.

Here's where we are at start of turn 5, ready to build Moscow on the forest. No one has moved yet and the worker is ready to start roading and mining the BG.

I'm going to save it here and close down for the night, and we can take a deep breath before we settle. We have a goody hut to pop in turn 6, so if we settle now we could set to zero research this turn and select CB next turn while we pop the hut. Then we can choose our real tech.

Settling the forest looks good. Is the inland lake fresh water? Extra food without a harbor.

As leif said we probably have alpha to help speed us to Map Making and allow us to meet our neighbors.

Not really sure we need a second scout until we get closer to map making, but since we can't build a worker first might as well get the scout going. I have a feeling we are isolated on a smallish island with a tundra core. That would force everyone to settle by the coast no matter which way they went. But that's only a guess.

I think build order should be scout (or warrior) in 5 turns than a worker in 5 turns as we hit size 2. Then maybe a barrack, might as well start out making veteran units.

Any thoughts on a roster? (This is our order from 4 with Mistfit in for Zamint)

Roster
AlanH - UP
Mistfit - On deck
DJMGator13 -
leif erikson -
Capt Buttkick -


BTW, here is part of the changes posted in the maintenance thread.

2. Leaders cannot hurry great wonders or small wonders. They may however be disbanded for 250 shields.
3. The Heroic Epic no longer requires a victorious Army in the field. It is now a small wonder that is available with the discovery of warrior code. This may be used to reduce the disadvantage that players attempting a non-military victory have due to not being able to rush wonders. It also means that players and teams persuing a military victory will be more likely to face AI armies.
4. Differential Naval Movement is engaged by default.
5. It is not possible to pop settlers from huts.

Yes, that's fresh water. The fish is in brine.

Roster looks fine to me as long as you're OK with me playing the rest of the first stint to 3000 BC. I started because it seemed we couldn't get very far by speculation and we needed to know more of our surroundings. We're kind-of at the "real" start now, except the AI have been growing for 5 turns :eek:

The Scout is important to hitting as many huts as we can to gain as much tech as we can, hopefully. We should also find the borders of our Icelandic existance and see if any other civs are about. If there are narrow waterways between the islands, we may need to have a Scout linger a short while in hopes of meeting someone else.

@Gator - I think your build order is a good start. I also have no problem with the roster. The maintenance thread stuff is interesting. Differential Naval movement could come in handy later, although on a hand built map, I'm sure M-B left some gaps that we'll have to suicide. The leaders being worth 250 shields is interesting as well, half a wonder?? Could come in handy, although that is an akward amount. No settlers from huts may mean more chances for tech.

@Alan - I think your plan is a good one regarding settling and the start up the tech tree. If we're alone, then straight to Maps and then Warrior Code or The Wheel or Iron Working? :crazyeye: If we have others taking up our space, then Warrior Code is a must have so we can take their capital. :mischief: And good call for a breather, I always feel better with a nice deep breath.

This terrain ought to look familiar to the Capt. Perhaps he'll recognize where his cabin is and give us a good map. He might even have some friends that will teach us Map Making and find us some horsies nearby? More likely Walrus tusks! :D

I can't see what you'd use 250 shields for early in the game. Buildings don't get that expensive until the IA. Before that we'd waste 50% or more of the shields. So for most of the game a leader is either an army or about 100 shields.

I guess you have to be right about the local geography. As you say, to even up the starting options for all teams there have to be two more equivalent locations spaced around a circle, and that doesn't leave room for an AI civ. Of course, we could have a land bridge to another continent, perhaps to the south?

In the absence of any information I'm assuming that we'll be able to trade maps and contacts in the AA. Late trading didn't happen in GOTMs until around 27, and MB says this is at the general rules state of 23. So Alphabet may also be a way to give us a push towards those two critical trading opportunities.

I can't see what you'd use 250 shields for early in the game. Buildings don't get that expensive until the IA. Before that we'd waste 50% or more of the shields. So for most of the game a leader is either an army or about 100 shields.
First of all, given our history with the RNG and the number of elite wins to gain a leader, I think we can expect none to 1. :rolleyes: The only wonders I can see worth our effort in the AA will be The Colussus and The Heroic Epic, should the opportunity present itself. Both are 200 shield wonders, iirc. Given the terrain, Armies don't seem to practical because we can't transport them in galleys anywhere, unless they are built in a captured city somewhere with a quite large island. So, leaders look to be fairly useless this time around. Not bad as we seldom see one anyway. :lol: :lol: :lol:
In the absence of any information I'm assuming that we'll be able to trade maps and contacts in the AA. Late trading didn't happen in GOTMs until around 27, and MB says this is at the general rules state of 23. So Alphabet may also be a way to give us a push towards those two critical trading opportunities.
This all the more reason to get out and see who and what we can find. :mischief: Will it require galleys or will there be a land bridge? Won't know until we check it out.

I think you should continue through 3000 BC. I've done enough typing. Thanks for letting us in on the exciting start. Now I would like to find our first friend, excuse me, I meant victim. :D

You can't use disband shields to build wonders.

Of course, you know what that means? We will get at least 10 Great Leaders!! :rolleyes: ;)

We can always convert GL to armies and sit on them until we get better troops to load in them or can get caravels so we can build 2 man armies.

I'm interested to find out who our nearest neighbor is. There are a few though AA civs in the game. Alan, Mistfit and I played a game using the 4 Mongol UU's and they are real powerful. We need to hit them early or probably wait for cossacks. Once we get cossacks we'll have the most powerful offensive unit in the game. But that is a ways off.

@Alan, by all means continue your excellent start.

We can't build armies for a while yet anyway. 4 cities per army iirc.

I don't agree on more scouts, might as well build a warrior if we agree that this looks like a small island.
I think we should pass on the granary early on as we'll only drain 1 pop for an early worker. We can go for the granary closer to pop 7.

I propose this build order:
1) Warrior
2) Worker
3) Barracks

I'm in doubt whether we should chop the game in this game. We won't be doing the settler factory anyway and while food is power in most games, I think we should concentrate on road building in this game to get our sci up. Irrigate the cow, no mining and just build roads everywhere. We'll have pop-increase in 5 turns after the cow is roaded. Go max for MM and start exploring the seas.
It may be a bit of a gamble, but it seems like we all have the same notion as to where m-b is going with this game, so the gamble may not be that big.

Also: if our scout meets another tribe, we'll have the flexibility of getting WC after Writing and doing the archer rush, with Rax in place.
Edit: large map means min research on Writing`?

Roster: I'd appreciate it if I were moved up the roster as I'm going away this weekend and won't be able to play then.

Looks good to me. I believe we will have someone on our landmass with us. I would guess someone fairly weak. Then we have to decide when we want to attack them. Wait until they have a lot of cities for us to grab or sooner before they get to strong.
As far as the roster goes Capt. you are welcome to switch spots with me I'd have no problems with that.

I don't agree on more scouts, might as well build a warrior if we agree that this looks like a small island.
I think we should pass on the granary early on as we'll only drain 1 pop for an early worker. We can go for the granary closer to pop 7.
I was hoping to wait on the warrior until we have the barracks up and running. The additional Scout may come in handy if there is a land bridge somewhere or, once we get to MM and can send them out in galleys to quickly define the islands we find and see who we're up against. I wouldn't build more than 1 more. Alan is probably past this point already and it isn't that important to me. In the end, a Warrior or a Scout are fine by me.
I'm in doubt whether we should chop the game in this game. We won't be doing the settler factory anyway and while food is power in most games, I think we should concentrate on road building in this game to get our sci up. Irrigate the cow, no mining and just build roads everywhere. We'll have pop-increase in 5 turns after the cow is roaded. Go max for MM and start exploring the seas.
It may be a bit of a gamble, but it seems like we all have the same notion as to where m-b is going with this game, so the gamble may not be that big.
I'm not so sure about all this. We are going to need the shields as well. We have only one city to start and will need to build an army of 10 to 12 Archers plus enough galleys to carry them, say 3 to 4. We will also need the gold to support the maintenance of the force and do research. I think chopping the game can wait a while, but we will gain production by chopping and mining the tundra, until we have engineering and can plant forests. I hope by then we have some other cities though.
Also: if our scout meets another tribe, we'll have the flexibility of getting WC after Writing and doing the archer rush, with Rax in place.
Edit: large map means min research on Writing`?
I agree, we should head directly for MM.

Here's my 20 turn starter:

4000 BC, Turn 0:
Scout W, nothing. Scout W to mountain sees cow on grass, BG, river, coast.
We decide to head for this area. Settler SW to uncover a tile, nothing new. Worker W towards cow.

3950 BC, Turn 1:
Scout W, W sees game across coastal water. Settler W. Worker W.

3900 BC, Turn 2:
Scout S, S sees more game, furs, a goody hut across the water, lake. Settler W. Worker W.

3850 BC, Turn 3:
Scout S sees more game, fish. SW onto promontory - confirms it's a dead end.
Settler S towards a location covering the cow, game, furs, sees hill. Worker SW towards BG.

3800 BC, Turn 4:
Settler W to forest city site. Worker SW to BG. Scout E to forest, sees goody hut on mountain.

3750 BC, Turn 5:
Settler builds Moscow, starts Warrior. Sliders to 10.0.0 on CB until we pop the goody hut next turn.
Worker starts road on BG. Scout E towards hut.

3700 BC, Turn 6:
Scout E to hut. We get .... maps! They show a similar set-up to the east - furs and game, some grass, a lake and a coast. There may be land south. Research to Writing. Sliders at 8.2.0 for 40 turns +3 gpt.

3650 BC, Turn 7:
Scout S, S towards possible land bridge.

IBT: Worker completes road.

3600 BC, Turn 8:
Scout SE sees dead end, goes E to hill. Worker N to cow. Sees more land to N.

3550 BC, Turn 9:
Scout E sees another dead end, more land to E across coastal water. worker starts road on cow tile.

IBT: Warrior completed in Moscow. Start barracks. Consider option to build Worker, but this will drop pop to 1 again. Option to build scout - not yet justified by space to explore.

3500 BC, Turn 10:
Warrior NW, NW to light up more of adjacent land mass. Scout N, E

3450 BC, Turn 11:
Warrior NE along coast. Scout W, N, sees wheat, and land to the E.

IBT: Road completed

3400 BC, Turn 12:
Worker starts irrigating cow. Scout N, E, sees more land extending E. Warrior NE on coast, sees land extending W.

3350 BC, Turn 13:
Warrior NE, sees mountainsN, W. Scout SE to hill, sees more land to E.

3300 BC, Turn 14:
Warrior NE. Scout E, S sees hut. Land continues S.

IBT: Moscow expands and grows to pop 2.

3250 BC, Turn 15:
We can work BG for 2.1.2 or game forest for 2.2.0. Decide to emphasise shields. Slider to 9.1.0. Warrior NE to mountain. Scout W, sees whale, S to hut and gets ... maps!

IBT: Worker completes irrigation.

3200 BC, Turn 16:
Worker S across river. Warrior N to mountain. Scout S, S on peninsula.

3150 BC, Turn 17:
Worker S into forest. Warrior NW, sees hut. Scout SE, sees dead end, reverses NW.

3100 BC, Turn 18:
Worker SW to game forest. Warrior W. Scout N, NW.

3050 BC, Turn 19:
Scout N, N. Worker starts road on game. Warrior pops hut ... maps! Scout N, N.

3000 BC, Turn 20:
Scout N, NW. Warrior S.

After action report:
Not much to say. We have not found any land bridges yet. I don't think we need another scout until we do. We have a barracks in 2 turns. I should probably have mined the BG before moving to road the game :blush:

Over to the next better player. I'll post a roster separately.

Here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Xteam_SG005_BC3000_01.SAV)'s the save.

And here's a screenshot:

Looking good Alan! :goodjob:

My, there sure is a lot of empty space!! :eek: Looks like a good thing we are on the road to MM, there are a bunch of civs out there, somewhere? :scan: Looks like we have a lot of roads to build. MM and Galleys will be a welcome sight as they will speed up our mobility.

I've swapped teh Captain and Mistfit as suggested.

AlanH - Just played
Capt Buttkick UP
DJMGator13 - On deck
leif erikson
Mistfit

Way to kick us off Alan.
Three things that come to mind when I look at this:
1.) that is one of the strangest land masses I've seen in Civ to date. How do we end up with so much Tundra at the equator?
2.) workers, we are going to need a bunch. If there are resourses (horses, iron) we will need colonies (and guards if other civs can reach us) I'd like to see a road network around our oddly shaped homeland to make it easier to patrol for land grabbing settlers and barbs. What is the barb level?
3.) we will not get salt until we conquer another civ that has desert (I think thats the only place salt peter shows up)

Edit: Acutally the map looks kinda like what it will be here soon. It's supposed to snow everyday from Wed through Sunday. The frozen tundra in my own back yard :D

Who says the equator is on our map?

I'm not so sure we want to discourage carpet baggers arriving on our land mass. Those are our easiest-to-develop future cities.

We should target to win before saltpeter is needed :D Knights should do it.

Good points Alan

Well done, Alan the Map Finder.

So MB did put a similar setup to the east.

Looks like we continue to explore our landmass and hope for something other thn maps from the GHs.

I'm willing to bet there is another set-up in the north as well. If a couple of interlopers will provide cities there, it would be, OH, so sweet. :mischief:

While we need some roads, I think we should remember that any roads we build will be useful to whoever else chooses to use them as long as they are not in our territory. While we need some mobility, we should be conscious of our ability to deter movement at key intersections to restrict unwanted movement.

It looks to me as though our primary source of mobility for some time will be galleys. While a rudimentary road network is in order, we don't know where the resources and colonies will be. I think we should try to connect tundra squares and avoid the excess time to build roads in forests or mountains, where that is possible, and create ever widening circles around areas of the island. This should give us both control and access. :crazyeye:

Got it.
Saltepeter can also be found in hills.
Maybe we started in the arctic and there are good, fertile lands wherever we go (once we get off this island, that is...)?

Sgotm5 3000 - 2550 B.C.

Preflight - Nothing.
Turn 1 - 2950 B.C. Scout NW Warrior W.
IBT: Moscow Rax --> Warrior.
Turn 2 - 2900 B.C. Scout N N. Warrior W.
Turn 3 - 2850 B.C. Scout E --> Pottery (obviously :cool: cause we need it for MM:)) Warrior S.
IBT: Moscow Warrior --> Granary.
Turn 4 - 2800 B.C. No lux for one turn. Warrior S. Scout NW.
Turn 5 - 2750 B.C. Scout W W. Worker NE. 10% lux. Switch Moscow to Warrior. MM Moscow for growth and gold.
IBT: Moscow Warrior --> Granary.
Turn 6 - 2710 B.C. No lux. Worker N. Warrior S. Scout N W.
Turn 7 - 2670 B.C. Scout N NW --> CB. There is indeed another very nice place to settle in the N. Worker mine. Warrior S maps. Something I've always wondered about: are there better chances of good GH results if you pop with scouts?
Turn 8 - 2630 B.C. Scout N NE. We have mapped the contours of our starting island. We are indeed alone. The race for MM is on... Disband reg Warrior.
Turn 9 - 2590 B.C. Scout NE.
Turn 10 - 2550 B.C. 10% lux.

Summary: Built Rax, 2 Warriors (and disbandonned another). We've got 1 city at pop 5.
Firaxis score is 48.
We know of no other civs.

Note to next player: If nothing is done, we should (if my calcs are correct...) have granary in 5 with growth in 7.

I suggest we finish the granary, throw in a temple and then start prebuilding for the GLight with the Colossus. I kept the scout cause I wanted to get it out on a few of the peninsulas to see what we may spot of other lands and stuff. The reg Warrior was disbandoned due to military costs and b/c we don't really need it for anything.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5_XTeam_1.jpg

Good turns Capt. New rule...Alan is not alowed to pop any more goodie huts :lol:

Edit:
Congrats on your Great GOTM results!
AlanH = 26th (global ranking #39)
Gator = 34th (global ranking #18)
Leif = 52nd (global ranking #29)

Capt. I presume that you, like me, dont have enough time to do a bunch of xTOM. I noticed on the 2 that you did play you came in 28th COTM02 and 30th on COTM04 :goodjob:

Now If I can just find more hours in the day I might get up there with you guys!

Good turn Capt.

I got it and can probably play later today. Do we want to hold off on building a military until we can at least make archers? And Wonder versus units, with only 1 city it will take some time to build up a decent size attack force.

@Mistfit - I was surprised I moved up to 18th overall, when I finished 34th in the most recent game. This was my try for a diplo game, and got beat by 100 years to the award.

I'd say that warriors are ok to build (as long as we end up with iron - MB wouldn't be that mean would he?)

I'd stay away from Wonders - Although the collossus would be nice to help with unit costs. At this point we are not sure we need the Lighthouse. There might be a perfectly good costal route to our first target. That said the extra movement bonus would be nice as well.

Well done Captain. Made up a bit for my lousy GH luck, I see :goodjob:. I think our priority is going to be to get the hell off this island if there's anything better out there. Either way we can let others settle. If the rest of the world's greener we don't want to stick around here, and if it isn't we need them to build some cities for us.

AlanH
Capt Buttkick - Just played
DJMGator13 UP
leif erikson - On deck
Mistfit

Go Gator!

Thanks for your encouragement, Mistfit. I must say I didn't feel I put up a very good show in that game. I think I could have finished a good 10 turns earlier just by playing while I was awake :eek:

Good job Capt. :goodjob:

Time to decide whether any of the wonders are worth the investment in shields they will require. The Temple provides 1 happy citizen for the cost of 1 maintenance. The lux slider provides the same, 1 happy for 1 gold. Do we need to build a temple? Unless we are looking for some extra culture? ;)

We are at our limit of MP's. Thought I read something about some road work needing to be done? Shouldn't we produce a worker next?

How long do we want to hang onto our Scout? Do you think it would be helpful to have the 2 movement to look for anyone else that may try to come and visit us? If not, then we should probably disband him and save some gold. (I know I pushed Scouts earlier, but you guys may have convinced me we don't need them.)

We have 16 turns left in Writing and then MM. CivAssist says MM will cost us 288 beakers. I'm not sure we can do that much faster then 40 turns, I'd guess 30 at best. So, that gives us 46 to 56 turns before Galleys. Also, IW's cost is 144 and WC is 72.

The Colossus costs 200 shields to build, The Great Lighthouse 400. We are producing 7 SPT now and I think we can easily get it to 10 and maybe 12. So, it is 20 turns to Colossus and 36 to 40 to TGL. TGL would, I think, be most helpful as it looks like we are going to be seafaring in this game. I suggest we decide if either is worth it.

On military, I am reluctant to build too many warriors. First, they will cost us maintenance and, second, we don't know where the iron is or how quickly we can get Iron Working. Same goes for horses and HBR, not too much grass around.

I recommend we consider using the time to shoot for TGL and building roads. Perhaps we can shave some time off of MM through fasrer research, but we'll have to keep a smaller military to keep GPT up for research.

What do you all think? :crazyeye:

EDIT - Thanks for the encouragement Misfit. I'm afraid I'm in a rut lately. The only thing that keeps me up in the GPR is persistance. The way somne of the new players have been doing, I won't last there very long, but I'm trying!! :D

We don't know what military builds will be upgradable yet, and building military will cost us maintenance without contributing for a while.

I think we should get our infrastructure as solid as possible - mine and road for max shields and gold, get to Writing and MM as fast as we can, and meanwhile keep a look out for passing land or sea units to hail. Once we have a good shield rate we can build warriors, archers or horses fast when we need to. Do we need another worker or two? With a granary we're going to grow fast and have happiness issues. We *could* go for the Colossus to boost our research rate?

Crossed with you ALan. Looks like we're thinking along the same lines.

The Colossus would be fine with me as well. Certainly we need the gold.

Crossed with you ALan. Looks like we're thinking along the same lines. That worked! At least I didn't end up with a double post :D

The Colossus would be fine with me as well. Certainly we need the gold.Colossus would be finished faster and be more certainly useful. I feel we need to be reasonably flexible until we know what's out there, so a shorter build time will leave us with more options.

If we are not going to build any military units right now I suggest keeping the scout to keep a look out for passing ships. I would also suggest keeping him to be put on our first galley to to inland exploration of the new lands we find.

I like the Colosus for the $.

I do think we need at least 1 or two more workers to road the heck out of our island.

Thanks all :)
I think we're getting pretty close to my initial thoughts, here :cool:


1. No more military b/c of the costs (and we don't really need them yet).

2. I don't think we need more workers either. After our eq finishes mining, he'll go to the undeveloped grass by the river and improve that. After that growth will be slower at size 6 and we've only got roads to do anyway.

3. I've got no probs with going for Colossus instead of GLight. We might be able to get GLight afterwards as I'm pretty sure the Colossus build won't cascade the AI to GLight.

4. Keep the scout for getting out on the peninsulas to see as much as possible.

5. Temple: The temple postpones the need for going to 20% lux, which makes 3 happy faces, netting us one gold. If we want the Colossus, we better get that first :thumbsup:

Good turns Capt. New rule...Alan is not alowed to pop any more goodie huts :lol:
:lol: Well, go read my Cotm Portugal GH results in the first spoiler :(

Edit:
Congrats on your Great GOTM results!
AlanH = 26th (global ranking #39)
Gator = 34th (global ranking #18)
Leif = 52nd (global ranking #29)

Capt. I presume that you, like me, dont have enough time to do a bunch of xTOM. I noticed on the 2 that you did play you came in 28th COTM02 and 30th on COTM04 :goodjob:

Now If I can just find more hours in the day I might get up there with you guys!

Well, it's only partly that I don't have the time. More often: if I get off to a poor start, I'm still in the learning prosess, so I often reload and replay the start to learn more, which obviously disqualifies me for submition in gotms.

I've checked out my Cotm3 QSC results though, which would have had me finish way up on the QSC rank, then I reloaded and ended up with a worse result :rolleyes: :lol:
At least I learnt that the most important trick to quell AI research on arch maps is to keep all civs bankrupt, no matter what. If you get 40 gold for pottery from an AI civ and its neighbour has it, do the trade.

I guess that we are at our unit limit so adding a worker will cost 1gpt so I guess we can wait until we see a resourse that we need to build our next worker.

Note that four of the roads will take 7 worker turns each as they are in forest. Also, to reach a full pop of 12 we need to chop the game and irrigate it. Two of the 12 citizens will need to work mined tundra. We have at least 80 worker turns to fully develop Moscow without building any external access roads. I think we should build a couple more workers now, while we can replace them quickly in a couple of turns each. They'll help to keep on top of the tasks, and rejoin Moscow later as we work more 1fpt tiles and the growth rate slows. Effectively, we'll have built some pop at 10 fpt instead of 20 and put it to good use in the meanwhile.

I'm really waffle'ing on this one. You put up a good argument on the need for more workers.

@Capt. Buttkick- what team is the photo in your Av from?

Please put me in the more workers column as well. I noticed when looking at the save that we haven't roaded the fur yet, that takes priority over a temple build I would think.

I also worked out a road map, so to speak, that I think will work, although it will require a lot of worker turns and we should discuss whether it is worth the cost in time, effort and maintenance for the extra workers.

EDIT - I just realized that I messed up. The roads leading out of Moscow should be along the river to take advantage of the gold bonus, not away from the river as drawn. Too much :beer: with lunch. :blush:

So it sounds like our build order is granary (in 6), then set to worker, then temple (to take advantage of the game chop) then Colossus.

Worker priorities is hook up furs, then chop & irr game.

I'll probably play in a few hours.

What are the roads for, leif?

I'd get two or three workers out before starting Colossus. Once we start and finish that workers will cost 20 food to replace. As soon as the granary's finished they'll only cost 10. I tried to explain that this way we are putting future citizens in storeage at 10 food each, and we'll be able to rejoin them later, after they've done whatever we need done - including leif's roads if they are indeed needed.

What are the roads for, leif?
Earlier, I thought we were discussing building roads around our island to give us the ability to move quickly towards any potential new city that someone might build for us or more quickly obtain resources though colonies, once we discover or trade for the tech. It would require less time to get to those techs with something in place?

I don't think a general road system should be attempted until Moscow is up and running effectively. Once that is completed and we have a few workers with nothing to do, then we can start on an island wide sysytem.

I must have missed that discussion, but, sorry, I disagree. There must be over 100 worker turns in that network, so it's going to take a while to build. IMHO, we'll do much better to keep a small band of workers available ready to road to resources as they appear. If we do build it, and barb horses start raging or an AI decides to take a crack at us, we'll make ourselves sitting ducks. We'll only have one city for them to focus on and they'll have movement of 6 on our open roads. I remember working quite hard during one turn set in SGOTM4, pillaging the roads north of Persepolis precisely in order to reduce the mobility of the barbs.

That's OK by me. I was trying to design a system that would give us the greatest mobility while limiting the ability of Barbs and the other civs to use it through intersections that we could easily control. What I feared might happen is what you suggested, a network that would be done without thought given to defense. :mischief:

The only problem I see with having workers ready to go after resources is that it could impose a significant delay in obtaining them, depending upon where they are located, of course. The issue of getting ot our enemy is really not a great problem becuase theyu have to grow enough to *not* auto-raze anyway. As long as we know they are there. :D

Hmm. Well, the intersections are in open terrain, and we have no idea what we're going to be able to defend them with. Warriors will not do well against barb horses on open tundra. If our workers have nothing else to do then perhaps a road towards each of the two city locations will reduce time to market for a resource or an AI city, but I don't think we should build extra workers specially to undertake a major road net on spec.

The intersections could be moved to mountains, which I considered, but didn't want to spend additional worker turns roading. Defensively, it makes sense to do that. If we decide to develop it, then we can make any mods we need. The map was made to stimulate discussion on the merits of the undertaking. I expected the specifics to change! ;)

Turn 1 - 2510BC
Scout E

Turn 2 - 2470BC
Scout S E

Turn 3 - 2430BC
worker SE SE to furs / Scout NW

Turn 4 - 2390BC
worker roads furs (6 turns) / Scout N

Turn 5 - 2350BC
Moscow granary => worker
Scout N N sees land N of us

Turn 6 - 2310BC
Scout S S

Turn 7 - 2270BC
Moscow worker => Temple (in 8 turns)
worker SE to furs / Scout S

IBT - Yikes :eek: - there be barbs on this landmass - Bwarrior approaches from the SW

Turn 8 - 2230BC
Scout S sees Bcamp moves S

Turn 9 - 2190BC
Furs are hooked up
wake one of our warriors send him E / both workers W / Scout S SE

Turn 10 - 2150BC
Scout SW SW towards our warrior who moves NE / worker road the tundra forest on way to game

Firaxis Score 55

Notes to next player
1) There is a roaming Bwarrior N of our scout
2) Warrior on way to Bcamp
3) I went with temple over 3rd worker - to keep us at size 5

Thanks for finding the Barb Camp for me Gator! :goodjob: Looked at the save and it looks good.

This is a got it! Plan to play tomorrow evening as it is getting late here.

A couple of questions.
IBT - Yikes - there be barbs on this landmass - Bwarrior approaches from the SW
1. Did you mean from the SW of Moscow? Do you think there are any more Barbs west of Moscow that I should be looking for?

2. Just checked the save and see a Temple in the queue. We rarely ever build Temples. That doesn't mean we shouldn't, in this case perhaps we should. When I checked the lux slider, it costs us 1 GPT to move it up each 10% increment. The Temple will always cost us 1 GPT maintenance. Isn't this a wash and shouldn't we change the build to Colossus?

3. Our 2 workers are currently roading the forest square to the SW of Moscow and will finish in 3 turns. The Temple, should we keep it, finishes in 5 turns. The next build should be Colossus, unless we lose a warrior to the Barbs, this means the forest shouldn't be chopped as we will lose the 10 shields. Is there something else we should build for the shields? It looks to me like we should road the game square and wait on the chop.

Thanks. :D

My reverse order thoughts :crazyeye:

3. Not sure that we need another worker before the Colossus. As you say we can't use the chop towards a wonder and we are currently getting an extra shield leaving it as is.

2. I did the temple to allow us to go for Colossus with minimal lux rate.

1. I ran into the Barb here. The barb moved NE out of the camp, which was SW of our scout's position.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam05_04.jpg

Nobody's listening! :gripe:

If we build workers now they cost 10 food to replace. We can use them to increase our gold and shield capability fast while we build the Colossus. Then we can rejoin them to the city as it gets bigger, takes 20 food to build new citizens, and uses more 1fpt tiles so its growth slows down.

A temple will be beneficial when we get our gpt up. Then 10% on the lux slider will be 2 gpt. It';s a pity the forest chop didn't go into the temple.

The barb's probably camped on that western peninsula.

I think Alan made a good point on more workers for readding to Moscow once we've improved the squares we need. Can we switch our build to a spear without substantial shield loss? It might come in handy against the barbs. After that, depending on worker turns left, we can do another worker first or directly set up the temple build again. Anyway, the forest shields should go there.

We might need to slow down on playing speed cause these days I'm not online as much as I use to and if I was given the time to change my mind w/r to worker builds, maybe that would have swung the vote?

Alan: while I agree that the Temple isn't exactly necassary (my initial reason for making the build, was to postpone the GLight prebuild until we were sure we had MM), it may not be a bad choice either, and it sure beats building military that we won't need for another 1000 years.
The temple will save us money at size 7: 20% lux = 15 gold *.2 = 3 gpt while we only need 2 gpt.
With ~ 15 gpt the lux increase from pushing the slider one notch higher will be 1-2-1-2-1..., as opposed to always 1 gpt as you seem to suggest.

Misfit: The ava kicker is Robert Pires of France playing against (I think) Cameroon.

Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads :D
I'll buy a round :beer: for the person to first name the movie that quote is from ;)

Let's look at the map and try to envision what was going through MB's head while making this map and placing resourses.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Dottie.JPG
First off we have 3 areas to settle in they are all similar but not exact.
As far as an initial settlement area the Area #2 kinda got the short end of the stick with less land and a wheat instead of a cow. Why?
My theory is it's because that is where our resourses are going to be (iron and horses) making up for the lack of the cow.
I've put stars on the areas I feel are likely to have Iron. I doubt that MB would put it on one of the three interior mountains as it would have given a considerable bonus for the teams settling closest to that mountain.

If it ends up in the NW on that star or even in the cluster to the a bit closer to us it is at least 6 tiles away from us an we will have to at minimum road the one mountain.

If it's in the East it will be 7 or 8 tiles away with the 1 mountain to road.

Horses typically in my experiance end up on hills. I put elephants (I couldn't find a horse logo this morning :( ) on what I consider to be likely areas for the horses to show up in. The likely areas for them to show up in are even further away.

All of that being said I agree we will need workers. I actually believe we will need more worker than what you all are thinking because remember we will loose that worker to make the colony. we will also need MP's on the colony to keep the barbs away from it.

Send that :beer: my way it's from: Back to the Future :D.

Alan: while I agree that the Temple isn't exactly necassary ... That's not what I said. I agree a temple will save us money when we get our gpt up, and I was only regretting that we didn't time the forest chop to help build it. Highest priority is to get our spt up, then we can afford these things and build them fast, and our gpt up so that we are in good shape to trade when we meet people.


Back to the Future. Aaarrgh! Mistfit got there first :cry:

My guess is there'll be more than one of any resource that mad-bax has been generous enough to throw our way - maybe even on in each settle location. I think the wheat may be just a slight variation to make it interesting.

@Gator - Thanks for the map and clarification. I am convinced that there is only 1 Barb Camp at the present time, but another could show up at any time.

@Misfit - interesting map and the assumptions you used to make it. When all is said and doine, it will be fun to go back and compare. I tend to think that, based on the way our island is laid out, that resources will either be centrally located or there will be a set for each settlement location. I hope we find out soon, but it won't be until we get to MM and get some galleys out.


@Alan - I have been listening, just haven't been vocal about it. You concept is, as always, logical.

The Temple build now has 24 shields in the box. The only thing we can switch to is Colossus without loss of shields. This doesn't sound like a good idea. Once the Temple completes then, another worker and then Colossus sounds like what we're thinking. The workers should road the game, the forest SE of the furs, road and mine the grass to the west and then up the riverbank going NE and mining those squares as well. That won't be finished until after I'm done. That leaves more time for discussion concerning roads outside our enclave. Once Writing is done, were on to MM, and I assume we're going for fastest speed and not concerned about building more gold for trade, when that happens. So, I will go to minus GPT in research if it speeds things up?

I guess I should have stated a more detailed reason for the temple over another worker. (Don't take this as being defensive. Questions and discussions are good :) )

When I started the temple it was going to take us 4 turns to grow to size 6 and 8 turn to build the temple. So I decided against building back to back workers and dropping us to size 4, figuring we could build the next worker after the temple completes.

We have 24 shields in the box so we would waste some to make a switch to anything other than the Colossus. The temple will complete in 4 turns and not 5 because of the growth next turn. If we mm we can time the Temple completion to coincide with our growth to size 7. Then at 10spt we can build the next worker in 1 turn versus the 2 turns it would have taken had I built it before the temple.

The workers just started roading in turn 10 so they could be changed without much loss. But I did not want to use the chop to speed up a worker build and if I had chopped the fur tile the chop would have completed the same turn as the temple thus wasting the chop.

That being said, I like Alan's idea of storing future 20 food growth in 10 food workers.

EDIT: crossed with leif - BTW, the forest game is already roaded.

EDIT: crossed with leif - BTW, the forest game is already roaded.
Thanks, I missed that somehow. :blush: ;) :crazyeye:

Have a good holiday all!

I will be away from the Puter until sunday - Skip or wait at your discression.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

Like Mistfit I'll be gone until probably Saturday evening.

And a Happy Thanksgiving from here also. I've posted the log now as I will be gone from Thursday morning until Friday evening. OK, here is comes:

Turn 40 – 2150 BC
Pre-flight.
Debated MM by moving the citizen from the fresh water to a forest square for shields, but then we lose 2 GPT, so I decide to leave it as is.
Everything else looks good so, press enter.

IBT
Zzzz

Turn 41 – 2110 BC
Warrior north.
Scout NE, sees Barb Warrior on hill to the north, moves east.
Moscow grows to size 6, lux slider to 20%.

IBT
Barb Warrior comes after Scout.

Turn 42 – 2070 BC
Scout SE and S onto mountain. Warrior N.

IBT
A second Barb Warrior now appears from the NE of the Scout’s position. Have to look for another barb Camp.

Turn 43 – 2030 BC
Scout remains on the mountain.
Warrior N, moves next to a Barb Warrior.
Workers E and SE.

IBT
Warrior attacked by Barb Warrior. Barb dies and we lose 1 HP.
2 Barb Warriors converge on our Scout’s position.
Moscow Temple – worker.

Turn 44 – 1990 BC
Change lux slider to 10%.
Workers road.
Scout E and E.
Warrior (3/4) attacks barb Warrior (2/2) and we win without loss.

IBT
Barb Warriors pursue Scout.
The Barb Camp grew a Warrior.
Moscow Worker – Colossus, due in 25 turns.

Turn 45 - 1950 BC
Change lux slider to 0%, Moscow grows again next turn.
New Worker NW and NW.
Our Warrior (3/4) attacks Barb Camp and defeats a Barb Warrior, losing another HP.
Scout NW, sees another Barb Warrior, and N.

IBT
The Barb Warriors (3) are trying to surround our Scout.
We discover Writing. Set research to 80%, Map Making due in 29 turns and our income drops to –2 GPT.

Turn 46 – 1910 BC
Moscow grows to size 6, change lux slider to 10%, now we are losing 3 GPT. Colossus in 19 turns, MM in 29.
Scout N and W, doesn’t find the Barb Camp where I thought it might be? :confused:
Warrior fortifies to heal.
Worker roads.

IBT
Scout is left alone, no Barbs in sight for now.

Turn 47 – 1870 BC
Scout W and NW onto mountain.
Worker N.
EqWorker NW and N.

IBT
A Barb Warrior nears Moscow, 3 squares east.

Turn 48 – 1930 BC
EqWorker roads.
Worker roads.
Warrior attacks Barb Camp and earns 25 gold while losing 2 HP. :p
Scout S and SW.

IBT
Barb Warrior moves into our city limits E and SE of Moscow.
We get our first palace addition. :cool:

Turn 49 – 1790 BC
Worker on grass mines.
Scout S and SW.
Warrior (2/4) fortifies to heal.
Wake Warrior (4/4) in Moscow, move SE and attacks Barb Warrior to the east. Defeat him without loss.
Adjust lux slider to 20%, losing 5 GPT.

IBT
See another Barb coming in from the west of the northern warrior, the one that defeated the Barb Camp.
I am beginning to think the barb settling is raging? :eek:

Turn 50 – 1750 BC
Southern Warrior moves east, back towards Moscow.
Scout E and E onto mountain, there is a Barb Warrior adjacent. :cry:

After Action Report
I’m afraid I’ve lost our Scout as he is on a mountain with a Barb Warrior next to him, sorry.

Moscow will grow next turn. Map Making is due in 25 turns, The Colossus is due in 15 turns and we are losing 5 GPT with research at 80% and lux set at 20%. As the warrior can return to Moscow next turn, lux slider can probably stay at 20%.

Looks like we will need to start building an Army soon as there are some Barbs somewhere in the east and also north and/or west of Moscow. The areas I where suspect the Barb Camps are located are circled in red. Good luck to whoever is next, Alan?

<< THE SAVE >> (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Xteam_SG005_BC1750_01.SAV)

Good work Leif. The gpt deficit will reduce next turn if we lose the scout.

As Mistfit and the rest of America are Thanksgiving - have fun, guys [party] - we skip to Europe. Looks like that swap was a bad deal, Mistfit :(

AlanH UP
Capt Buttkick - On deck
DJMGator13
leif erikson - Just played
Mistfit - Skipped

Guess I'm UP. I'll get it as soon as I've posted my GOTM 37 spoiler and QSC.

Well done, leif and happy Thanksgiving to everyone :D

Never mind about loosing out to Misfit, Alan. Thanks for playing and I'll buy a virtual round of :beer: to all team members ;)

Sorry for stealing your turns, Misfit :(

I'll buy a virtual round of :beer: to all team members ;)
Gulp, Gulp!! It sure tasted good! :thanx:

Now for a virtual helping of turkey, mashed potatoes w/gravy, squash and a nice big piece of the apple pie I just took out of the oven :drool:, my wife made me do it, honest! That's why I had to get my turns in before tonight. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Good luck Alan. There are Barbs about. I hope you can get The Colossus done before you have to build more military.

Should you have any questions, I will check in tomorrow morning before I have to depart for my in-laws house. No computer there. :cry:

Turn 40 - 1750 BC Preflight. No changes. Moscow -> pop 7 next turn, building Colossus eta 15 turns will reduce.
Scout on central mountain will die. 3/4 warrior healing in north with an approaching barb.
Slider 0.8.2 -5 gpt.

IBT - Scout dies, vet warrior heals, Moscow ->pop 7. Workers complete tundra roads.

Turn 41 - 1725 BC. N Warrior moves SE away from barb to lure him off the mountain. Workers towards grass to help complete mine. S Warrior into Moscow. Slider to 1.8.1 -3gpt. Mapmaking due in 20 turns

IBT - Barb appears from SE. Northern barb moves off mountain.

Turn 42 - 1700 BC. N Warrior kills barb -1hp, no promo. Workers join on grass mine to complete next turn.
MM Moscow to use grass instead of lake to capture mine shield in the interturn.

IBT SE barb approaches Moscow, in forest SE, SE. Two more barbs appear from E. Workers complete mine.

Turn 43 - 1675 BC. Workers move away from barbs to road southern tundra. N Warrior W to mountain, sees barb camp on tundra with one barb warrior. Warrior moves out of Moscow and fortifies to defend furs.
Slider 0.8.2 -4gpt.

IBT - Barb moves N out of forest, other two barbs approach.

Turn 44 - 1650 BC. Workers build road on southern tundra. N Warrior fortifies to heal for a turn before hitting the barb camp. S Warrior kills barb - no damage. He is now between the two NE barbs and Moscow.

IBT - Two barbs attack S Warrior. First one promotes him to 4/5. Second one dies without inflicting further damage. N Warrior heals.

Turn 45 - 1625 BC. S Warrior back to Moscow. Workers to river tundra to mine. N Warrior moves N on mountains towards barb camp. Slider 1.8.1 -3 gpt.

Turn 46 - 1600 BC. N Warrior kills barb camp for 25 gold. No damage, no promo. Workers start mine.

Turn 47 - 1575 BC. N Warrior E onto mountain.

IBT - Workers complete mine.

Turn 48 - 1550 BC. N Warrior S on mountain. Workers to second river tundra to mine.

Turn 49 - 1525 BC. N Warrior SE. Workers start mine. MM Moscow for higher shields, lower food, lower gold to get Colussus finished. Slider 0.8.2

Turn 50 - 1500 BC. N Warrior S. Workers continue mine.

After action report Barbs were around but not a problem in this set. Colossus will complete in 3 turns. Workers wll complete the second tundra mine next turn. We can chop the game forest, but we may not have anything to use the shields for.

Score 70. The save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm5/Xteam_SG005_BC1500_01.SAV). The city:

[AlanH - Just played
Capt Buttkick UP - but no need to hurry because ...
DJMGator13 - On deck, eating turkey
leif erikson - also eating turkey
Mistfit - Skipped - also eating turkey

[AlanH - Just played
Capt Buttkick UP - but no need to hurry because ...
DJMGator13 - On deck, eating turkey
leif erikson - also eating turkey
Mistfit - Skipped - also eating turkey
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Nice set Alan! :goodjob: Very happy to see all those Barbs didn't get any RNG luck! :rolleyes: You scared me for a moment when I read your turn log.
Moscow -> pop 7 next turn, building **Colosseum** eta 15 turns will reduce.

[offtopic]
Stuffed like a turkey I be, but happy as a clam. You have to enjoy a holiday where the only objective is to eat as much as you like of anything that you like. :band:

:lol: leif. Lots of people celebrate christmas that way here in Norway. Which I've always found to be a pity. But then again, we don't celebrate thanksgiving.

Nice set, Alan :goodjob:
You should remake the roster and dub it rooster :p

If I don't get to play it today, I probably won't get to play until sunday, b/c like I said earlier I have plans for the weekend. We've played a lot faster than I'd think so far.

No problem, turns don't take long with only one city to build and five units to manage. It also looks like there will be a slight delay in the PtW teams' activity, as there's a bug in their game that needs to be squashed.

:lol: leif. Lots of people celebrate christmas that way here in Norway. Which I've always found to be a pity. But then again, we don't celebrate thanksgiving.
I'll be there for Christmas! ;) Well, we should be more aware of the the real reason for Thanksgiving. People aren't always and don't realize how fortunate we are, but that is way out on another topic. :dubious:
We've played a lot faster than I'd think so far.
Well, with only one city to care for and MM, no other cities to build, no other civs to trade with, a few Barbs running around and no Gold left to build a huge military, there isn't a lot to do, yet. I think things will get a little more complicated after we discover Map Making. :coffee:

As we approach that time, we might think about a galley pre-build. Maybe we should use the forest chop towards a Harbor, after we get 2 or 3 galleys out searching the world, if we can wait that long. :bounce:

Good luck Capt. Keep those Barbs at bay.. :lol: :lol:

I made it back from my Grandparents with some leftover turkey and the end of her homemade Key Lime Pie.

No need to rush Capt, I've got some continuing education credits to finish up this weekend.

Back and Bloated. Thanks for putting up with the me being AWOL. I'll pick it back up when it comes around to me. I still have a houseful of company. I don't know what I was thinking when I put the puter in the guest room.

Glad to see that Thanksgiving seems to be a hit and that everyone made their travels safely. Now that the North American contingent is fat, dumb and happy :p , we are ready to deal with whatever we find. :rolleyes:

Good luck Capt., lets get to Map Making and do some exploring!! :cool:

Sorry I kept you waiting (wife had chores for me yesterday...), but here it is:

Sgotm5 1500 - 1250 B.C.

Preflight - Nothing.
Turn 1 - 1475 B.C. Workers N. Warrior S. I wanted to keep our warriors close to home as long as we don't have better protection than we do (although that elite warrior looks impressive :goodjob: ).
Turn 2 - 1450 B.C. Workers road. Warrior S. MM Moscow and it can sustain 80% sci, 10% gold (although not 90% sci). We earn 1 gold from that ;)
Then finally we can breath free, no matter what the barbs do, they won't get to our wonder build :)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM5_XTeam_2.jpg

IBT: Moscow: Colossus --> Spearman (I know, I hardly ever build them either, but I wanted just two, one to guard us from barbs and the other to put in the first invasion force, to defend our archer/horse stack when we make our first landfall. It also fits well with swhields/growth.
Turn 3 - 1425 B.C. Workers mine. Warrior NE. We can now go to 90% sci, 10% lux for MM in 7 turns. I'll MM Moscow next few turns for rapid growth + spear in 2.
IBT: 3 barbs arrive in the north, 2 from E and 1 from NW.
Turn 4 - 1400 B.C. Fortify warrior on mountain. MM Moscow.
IBT: Moscow Spear --> Spear.
Turn 5 - 1375 B.C. Spear E NE. Workers SE. MM Moscow.
IBT: 3 barb wars attack our vet war fortified on the mountain, we take 1 HP damage and promotes.
Turn 6 - 1350 B.C. Workers road. Spear N, Warrior on mountain moves N.
IBT: Moscow Spear --> Settler (prebuild for galley).
Turn 7 - 1325 B.C. Both Spear fortify. Workers S SW SE. Warrior N.
Turn 8 - 1300 B.C. Warrior N. Workers road. 80% sci for MM next turn.
IBT: Our spear on mountain is attacked by a barb, no promo. MM --> The Wheel. I started TW cause it will allow us to build a few chariots and upgrade to horses, hopefully we can trade for WC. Our experience from previous Sgotms is that we seem to do alright once we get fast units.
Turn 9 - 1275 B.C. Switch Moscow to Galley. Warrior W.
IBT: Moscow Galley --> Harbor.
Turn 10 - 1250 B.C. Galley W SW. Warrior N (looks like I made the left turn too early :lol:

Summary: Built 2 Spears and 1 Galley Finished Mapmaking. We've got 1 city at pop 8.
Firaxis score is 79.
We know of no other civs.

Well played, Captain. I assume the Colossus had the desired effect on our research rate, as you brought Mapmaking in early :thumbsup: I agree we needed to keep the warriors near to home while we don't have many. Maybe now that we have spears to protect our investment they can go out and grab a barb camp or two for the 25 gold contributions to our budget.

Here's the roster. Hopefully we are all back from our festivities and rarin' to go?

AlanH
Capt Buttkick - Just played
DJMGator13 UP
leif erikson - On deck
Mistfit - Still waiting for his first touch

Good turns Capt. that colossus looks like it should be a nice shot in the arm for our economy.

Are we building 2 galleys one north one south or more? Eventually we will need a bunch to transport troops but it will be a fine line as to which gets built 1st. Troops or Transport.

At some point we might need to turn down research to pay for our first war as we pump out a bunch of units.

MM --> The Wheel. I started TW cause it will allow us to build a few chariots and upgrade to horses, hopefully we can trade for WC. Our experience from previous Sgotms is that we seem to do alright once we get fast units.
Hi Capt.! Nice to know that while I was feasting, the wife put you on hard labor. But don't worry, my turn is coming! :cry:

Good job, although I almost passed out when I read about those Spears. ;) However, you had a good reason to build them :goodjob: , so don't mind me. :lol:

I took a look at the save and research is set to Warrior Code, not The Wheel? :confused: Did you decide to change it?

I agree we needed to keep the warriors near to home while we don't have many. Maybe now that we have spears to protect our investment they can go out and grab a barb camp or two for the 25 gold contributions to our budget.
While I know that it may be a ways off, if the barbs are set to raging we could have a problem later on. The land area is quite large and there could be all sorts of camps around. Perhaps we should think about planning out how we might be able to play that? We can't build a vacant city to absorb the damage in this game and a slew of horsman attacking Moscow would be ugly. :eek: Besides, We could be at war with some other civs while we are trying to defend ourselves at home. :wallbash:

@Misfit-Good question about galleys. I think we need at least 2, one going east and one west. Perhaps we should think about 4 as the sooner we meet the other civs, the better off we will be.

I am willing to change places in the roster with Misfit in order to give him a go as soon as possible. ;)

If we can spend our money before the barbs hit, and don't have a lot of shields in store the worst they can do is to kill citizens. Either we live with it, or we have to build some warriors or spears to put on mountains near their camps as cannon fodder to soak up their attacks before they reach the city. If we can get some swords and/or horses before the era ends we could try surrounding the camps at distance three and kill barb horses as they emerge, to promote some elites.

I am willing to change places in the roster with Misfit in order to give him a go as soon as possible.Turns don't take long at the moment. I suggest we leave the roster as is unless you are likely to delay proceedings.

I am willing to change places in the roster with Misfit in order to give him a go as soon as possible
I appreciate the offer. If it works out better that way great. If not I will play when my turn comes.

Edit: Personally I think that the biggest problem we will have from the barbs will be piliaging our colonies and roads to the colonies.

Now that we have Map Making, hopefully we can meet the neighbors and invite them to come settle our land.

I should be able to play tonight or tomorrow.

If we can spend our money before the barbs hit, and don't have a lot of shields in store the worst they can do is to kill citizens. Either we live with it, or we have to build some warriors or spears to put on mountains near their camps as cannon fodder to soak up their attacks before they reach the city. If we can get some swords and/or horses before the era ends we could try surrounding the camps at distance three and kill barb horses as they emerge, to promote some elites.

Your idea about the Swords and Horses would be nice. :goodjob: Hopefully we can trade for the techs, find the resourses, claim them and get them connected to Moscow. It would be nice to attack some other civ with elite horsemen! :mischief: Perhaps the Barbs can be used to our advantage. As we build our armies, we could use the barb camps as a training gound to both gain elites and make some gold. As The Capt. says, I think we like fast units the best when we can get them.

As for taking the risk, I think we could lose our Granary, Temple and Barracks. The pop hit would hurt production for a while as well. If we can fidn a way to keep cycling units into Barb areas and continue to attack their camps, that would, hopefully, minimize their masses later. I think we should have some time yet before this becomes an imminent danger.

For me, this brings us back to the subject of roads. :rolleyes: I continue to agree that we shouldn't lay out a massive effort to build a huge road network. OTOH, we could use roads to channel the barbs into kills zones, to engage them where we want them to be, and use that as a training ground for our troops. I think the concept would be similar to what we did in SGOTM03 as the Romans in the valley of death, although we didn't need roads to bring the enemy civ units into the area.

No problem on the roster changes. :D

By all means work out a plan for your road network. It may be best to make the roads short-ish. The barbs will know the quickest route to our city, so if that's by road they'll come in that way even if they have to travel over unroaded terrain first.

I've not looked at the save file in a while but have we improved enough tiles for our current 8 citizens and our future 4? If that is done I see no reason not to road tiles towards our expected resourse locations.

I see no reason not to road tiles towards our expected resourse locations.Except, with all respect to anyone's ability to read the mind of mad-bax, we don't know where they are going to be. They may be within our borders, and we could simply be roading up routes for attackers - barbs or AI. Workers cost 1gpt each, so another option is to rejoin them to Moscow, saving 1gpt each and growing the city to increase its productivity. We can always rebuild them again later as and when we need colonies or roads. I'm not making this recommendation, BTW, I'm just trying to make sure we discuss the options.

I'm not sure what to think of your comments. I guess the only thing I can go off of is what I'd do if it were my own game playing alone. If that were the case I'd get our only city up to speed making sure that the 12 best tiles were worked to their fullest first then proceed to make roads to the north and the east to help future development. You had mentioned earlier that we should consider making workers while they cost fewer food to produce (while the city was under size 6) If we add the workers back in now only to rip them back out again now that we are above size 6 I'd think would be a waste of production.

I'll go with what ever the team decides but my vote goes towards roading to the north and the east once our 12 best spots are improved to their fullest within our 21 tile capital.

I think we should get Moscow to size 9 with a harbour, join workers and then build one or possibly two workers when/if we need it, most importantly, MM the city so we only take out the shields we need and focus on growth. Then at size 12 with a full granary, we can build a worker in one turn w/o citizen loss.

@ leif: :( Sorry, I think I did the same thing once in a QSC as well. I debate whether I should go with the one tech or the other, decide on one and then forget to make the switch. If I could only learn that I need to know what tech to go for before the pop-up asking for next research rears its ugly head :(
Oh, well. If we don't find other civs in the next couple of turns, we'd probably go through the same 3 techs anyway.

Build: I'd say galleys until we get TW, then chariots followed by horses. We'll soon get our horse count up to fill the galleys waiting then (I'm assuming we'll have ~ 5 galleys by then).

@ leif: :( Sorry, I think I did the same thing once in a QSC as well. I debate whether I should go with the one tech or the other, decide on one and then forget to make the switch. If I could only learn that I need to know what tech to go for before the pop-up asking for next research rears its ugly head :(

Memory is the second thing to go!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

OK, I took a good long look at the terrain of our little island. I will attach the .jpg image at the bottom. To accomplish this will require about 90 to 100 worker turns of effort. Therefore, I think we should consider the proposal to be a work in progress and *not* make it a priority. The "pink" square (mountain) on the map is where we station a spear to keep the barbs at bay. I suggest the following:

1. We finish building roads in all of the squares inside the city radius, even the ones we do not plan to work. I think this is a good idea because, hopefully, we will have fast units and with roads they can get back into Moscow on the same turn as they attack to heal quicker.

2. We join 2 of our workers into Moscow as we said we would, using 10 food workers to make 20 food citizens. We keep the original worker to do road duty.

3. The priority of work is to go east first. then southeast, then back to the north.

One of the difficulties of using more than one worker on this is protecting them, so the worker will need an accompanying spear. This, plus creating workers as Alan planned for growth, I think says one worker on duty.

The only thing that concerns me about "not" doing any roading is that once we do find the other civs and do a bunch of trading it will end up taking us the 90 - 100 worker turns to connect up those resourses. If you are sure that once at size 12 we can pump out a worker per turn without losing any citizens then I'm for adding them back in now and then spend 3 turns getting them back. I'm not that great of a game mechanic to figure out if this would work or not.

At size 12 with a harbour, we can have surplus food. In time that means a full granary, which again means we can pull off a worker w/o dropping to 11 for more than one turn (iirc).

Update: no progress yet, I should be able to play and post today. I've been working on my continuing education credits.

Update: no progress yet, I should be able to play and post today. I've been working on my continuing education credits.
Continuing what?? :hmm: Where are your priorities? :eek:

I suppose at Christmas you'll be sitting around the tree instead of at the computer? :rolleyes: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well, good luck. :coffee:

Preturn - 1250BC
The 12 best workable tiles are already prepared, so I start on the roading project
sci to 70% still in 4
Send the three workers to 3 separate tundra tiles

IBT - Barb

Turn 1 - 1225BC
Northern warrior SE / workers road / Galley W S S

IBT - Bwarrior dies attacking us

Turn 2 - 1200BC
warrior S / galley S E E

IBT

Turn 3 - 1175BC
Galley S (spies a Bcamp 6 tiles from Moscow) S SE / warrior E (looking for where the barb came from)

IBT - we learn WC (set to WHEEL 80% in 6 at -5gpt)

Turn 4 - 1150BC
converge the 3 workers to spear mt / warrior E / galley S S NE NE

IBT

Turn 5 - 1125BC
galley S E NE / workers road mt / warrior NE

IBT

Turn 6 - 1100BC
warrior S / galley S S E E

IBT

Turn 7 - 1075BC
Moscow grows to size 9 - our harbor is 1 tile short - should have probably MM last turn but forgot too
warrior E / galley E E N (there are silks on this little island)
lux to 20% we're at -7gpt

IBT - Harbor completes

Turn 8 - 1050BC
send 2 workers to tundra tiles and 1 back to Moscow to join city
sci to 70% - still in 2 at -5gpt
warrior S / galley E E N

IBT

Turn 9 - 1025BC
join 1 worker to Moscow now at size 10 (BTW food in the box did not reset when worker was joined)
workers road / warrior S
Small mistake: realized I should have taken galley S when I reached the small island 2 turns ago - decide not to backtrack
galley E E N

IBT - learn WHEEL set to IW (but can be changed) / add second story to palace

Turn 10 - 1000BC
There are 2 tiles with horses: wheat Horse and mountain Horse
warrior S / galley E E (spies sea tiles across ocean)

End my turn here - but the galley still has movement points - need to decide if we want to suicide from here

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam05_05.jpg

Firaxis score 86
Jason score 56

Notes to next player
1) Move galley in preturn either back west or further E E
2) Can change research in preturn - options are MAS, IW, PHIL, COL, LIT, HBR or MYST
3) when the regular worker finishes roading the tile you can join him to Moscow

The Horses
I think the eastern wheat Horse is closer than the northern mountain Horse.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam05_06.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam05_07.jpg

Nice turns Gator!

East is definitely closer for the horses. I vote :thumbsup: on the :suicide:

Good job Gator! :goodjob: Nice to see that all that studying didn't fry your brain. :banana:
Notes to next player
1) Move galley in preturn either back west or further E E
2) Can change research in preturn - options are MAS, IW, PHIL, COL, LIT, HBR or MYST
3) when the regular worker finishes roading the tile you can join him to Moscow
1. I agree with Misfit, the suicide is on. We have to meet some other civs, and soon. In fact, the next Galley should go west and suicide its way to glory, or death. :rockon:
2. I think we should research HBR. First, we know we have horses and we'll need it. Second, I think it would best to research as far up the tech tree as possible in order to have some trade material. Map Making will be good and HBR should also be. Most of the AI's ought to have IW soon, if not already. There are plenty of civs out there that started with BW.
3. Yes.

Galley finishes in 1 turn. I don't think we need more military just yet. I think the spear on the mountain will be needed to defend the eqworker as he heads for the horses. We can always pull the other spear out for a turn or two to defend the mountain when needed and use the lux slider. What to build next then, Galleys?

BTW - I have it and plan to play tomorrow evening. That gives us 24 hours to sort anything out.
:mischief:

I'd definitly say we need more galleys, especially if we need to suicide, but if this is the picture all around our island, GLight is an essential build if we're planning to go anywhere before astronomy :eek:

Nice, Gator:thumbsup:. Suicide galley to the east then! To death or glory :D


I notice there's a path one tile north of where our galley is running where the coast tile is next to an ocean tile. That means a galley would use one fewer movement points to get to the ocean, where it's one point per tile. It may make no difference to the final path moves from coast to coast, but we need to look for opportunities like this for future suicide runs as they increase our reach.

AlanH
Capt Buttkick
DJMGator13 - Just played
leif erikson UP
Mistfit - On deck, rarin' to go.

Nice spotted, Alan :goodjob:
So why don't we move back to that space this turn and then make the suicide run on the next turn?

I'd definitly say we need more galleys, especially if we need to suicide, but if this is the picture all around our island, GLight is an essential build if we're planning to go anywhere before astronomy :eek:
Good point! :goodjob: What about the Great Lighthouse? We are producing 11 shields per turn now and, when the pop increases, I think 13 is doable. That means a minimum of 24 turns. Perhaps another galley first?

Good catch Alan. I think it would be wise to move back to that coastal square and start the suicide (or maybe not) run the turn after. :)

How about research objectives? HBR or something else? As I said earlier, the higher up the tree we get, and hopefully something useful, the better opportunities for trading we will have. :mischief:

OK, another 10 to 12 hours then. :cool:

I agree on HBR, also because we shouldn't produce too many swords imhso.

Nice catch Alan. By all means move him back with the 3 mp left, then launch from there.

The Great Lighthouse did come up as a 24 turn build before I started the current galley and we've increased pop by 1 since then. We also have the other worker which can be joined in a few turns.

I was leaning towards HBR also, but figured we need to know were our iron is (if any) for our roading project.

The question remains, do we want to put 300 shields into a wonder? Imho, it is doable since we have the time before we'll get horses, unless we are going to put more effort into the road work. :eek: 8 tiles X 3 turns per tile, plus movement comes to more than 24 turns?

I can't think of too many things to build in the meantime that will help us in our quest. To build military seems a waste without building fast units, unless it is more galleys.

Is it worth the effort? :hmm:

We are in the dead centre of the map, so the others are likely to be ranged around us in different directions. We shall need to work out what shape this world is as soon as possible in order to decide how to proceed to acquire more territory and power. Our options are to throw all our eggs into the Lighthouse basket or to build multiple suicide galleys.

If we do it with suicide galleys it will take maybe half a dozen galleys or more. Each one has a 50% chance of survival if the route only involves one deep sea stop-over - 25% if it has to survive two. So it could take 20 turn plus to build the galleys.

The Great Lighthouse would probably allow us to find the others safely, using fewer galleys. And it could bring the important bonus that winning it may keep our homeland safe from the AI until the late middle ages.

I'm not usually a wonder builder, but we've already done it once. Why not another one?

The Great Lighthouse would probably allow us to find the others safely, using fewer galleys. And it could bring the important bonus that winning it may keep our homeland safe from the AI until the late middle ages.