1421 theory is used as a term to describe a theory from former British Royal Navy submarine commander Gavin Menzies. In his book 1421: The Year The Chinese Discovered The New World he suggests that fleets by the captains Zhou Wen, Zhou Man, Yang Qing and Hong Bao out of the fleet of the Chinese admiral Zheng He travelled to many parts of the world during the Ming Dynasty era from 1421 to 1423, before the Europeans did. According to Menzies, his discoveries include Australia, New Zealand, the Americas, Antarctica, and even the north side of Greenland. The knowledge of these discoveries has been lost, Menzies argues, because lightning (which was considered a sign of divine anger) burnt down the Forbidden City. Emperor Zhu Di forbade making new voyages, and his advisors destroyed all accounts of Zheng He's voyages.

Menzies bases his theory on Chinese shipwrecks, old maps, surviving Chinese literature from the time, and accounts written by navigators like Christopher Columbus and Ferdinand Magellan. Menzies also believes that controversial structures like the Newport Tower and the Bimini Seatrack are constructed by Zheng He's men.

Among his specific evidence are DNA studies showing "recent" DNA flow from China, maps which apparently show foreign lands before the Europeans discovered them, and a drawing of an armadillo in a book published in China in 1430, along with veritable mountains of circumstantial evidence.

His book is considered by many experts to not be founded in fact. One Chinese expert pronounced the theory "pure fiction". However, some academicists, like Dr. Sir John Elliot (Oxford University) do believe the theory.

Based on newly discovered evidence, Menzies modifies his theory from time to time. His new findings are usually bigger, bolder, and much less traditional than his previous ones. For example, he now claims some of Zheng He's ships travelled as far as Portugal and that his maps arrived to the hands of the Portuguese. He also now alleges that the Chinese records of the voyages were never, in fact, destroyed, and are waiting to be found.
Do you belive this theory? I think it could be true. So if the maps arrived Portugal that's why maybe Portuguese king João II already knew the existense of America pushing the Treaty of Tordesillas line to secure Brazil to Portugal.
What do you think?

all the way to portugal!? it sounds a bit sketchy, they may have made it to the new world but not europe

Well, I for one don't think that they made it to Portugal, they might have discoverd the New World though. But so what, the Vikings were there before them anyway.

I think the idea has some merit. In fact, the Chinese were even better equipped to make it to the New World than the Spaniards. But I think Menzies' idea that one part of the fleet made it back by going east along Russia's Northern Coast is... off. Otherwise it's a good theory. The only problem is that there's no west African documentation of the fleets making it there. It doens't mean they didn't, but it leaves the theory open-ended.

The strongest point? The cartographical evidence, like the Piri Reis map, not to mention the fact that the Jade-carving techniques between the Maya and Chinese are EXACTLY the same. And also there are Chinese relics scattered across the New World. Not necessarily on these Treasure Ships, but it's possible...

A)Bird Jaguar needs to get to this thread- we ar ein nee dof soem seriosu debunkign of the theory that only he provides to full calliber

@amenhotep- and just how many methods to carve jade are thier? if the technique is the same, then shouldnt the desgin be of a similer tyle? and shouldnt jade carving only date back to the 1400's? SHouldnt the Piri Reis map be Chinese instead of Turkish?

Among his specific evidence are DNA studies showing "recent" DNA flow from China, maps which apparently show foreign lands before the Europeans discovered them, and a drawing of an armadillo in a book published in China in 1430, along with veritable mountains of circumstantial evidence. I'd like to see the evidence of that!

I'd like to see the evidence of that!
I second this!

NONONONONONONO!

Not this god-damned thread AGAIN!

Well, I for one don't think that they made it to Portugal, they might have discoverd the New World though. But so what, the Vikings were there before them anyway.

Maybe not. ;)

Chinese Poem, 499 AD

East of the Eastern Ocean lie
The Shores of the land of Fu-Sang.
If, after landing there you travel
East for ten thousand li (3,300 miles)
You will come to another ocean,
Vast, huge, boundless.

I think the idea has some merit. In fact, the Chinese were even better equipped to make it to the New World than the Spaniards. But I think Menzies' idea that one part of the fleet made it back by going east along Russia's Northern Coast is... off. Otherwise it's a good theory. The only problem is that there's no west African documentation of the fleets making it there. It doens't mean they didn't, but it leaves the theory open-ended.

The strongest point? The cartographical evidence, like the Piri Reis map, not to mention the fact that the Jade-carving techniques between the Maya and Chinese are EXACTLY the same. And also there are Chinese relics scattered across the New World. Not necessarily on these Treasure Ships, but it's possible...

Jade carving techniques were introduced to Maya about the time of the legendary Chinese explorer Xu Fu, who supposedly crossed to Pacific and conquered himself a kingdom there....

Anyway, the most respectable books on the treasure fleet indicate it going to East Africa, Arabia, and PERHAPS to Australia.

we ar ein nee dof soem seriosu debunkign:eek: Sounds like some scandinavian language...

So if the maps arrived Portugal that's why maybe Portuguese king João II already knew the existense of America pushing the Treaty of Tordesillas line to secure Brazil to Portugal.
What do you think?

i absolutely believe that some portuguese sailors were indeed aware of the americas before the "magical" date of 1492, but only because they were doing the exploring themselves

@amenhotep- and just how many methods to carve jade are thier? if the technique is the same, then shouldnt the desgin be of a similer tyle? and shouldnt jade carving only date back to the 1400's? SHouldnt the Piri Reis map be Chinese instead of Turkish?


A) I dunno, I'm not an expert in the art of jade-carving.

B) Not necessarily. You wouldn't expect to see a Chinese god on a Mesoamerican piece, now would you?

C) Agreed.

D) Precisely. But how would the Turks have known of South America, the straits of Magellan, the fact that the western side of it is mountainous, the way the natives of Patagonia dress, the mylodons (I forget if that's their name. I think they died out c.1500s), the llamas and many more creatures on their Piri Reis map?

A) I dunno, I'm not an expert in the art of jade-carving. i would imagine only one actual technique for cutting stones exists without using metals of any kind- which of course brings up another question- if the chinese were so keen on giving away the secret of how to make thie rprecious stones, which woudl have been fa rmore valuble to keep a secret frm the assorted meso-americans, then why is thier no hint of metalugry?


B) Not necessarily. You wouldn't expect to see a Chinese god on a Mesoamerican piece, now would you? if the chinese introduced jade carving then yes, one would.



D) Precisely. But how would the Turks have known of South America, the straits of Magellan, the fact that the western side of it is mountainous, the way the natives of Patagonia dress, the mylodons (I forget if that's their name. I think they died out c.1500s), the llamas and many more creatures on their Piri Reis map?

the most simple explination would be that the turks went their, and not the chinese.

I read this book, it's quite convincing....

Menzies bases his theory on Chinese shipwrecks, old maps, surviving Chinese literature from the time, and accounts written by navigators like Christopher Columbus and Ferdinand Magellan. Menzies also believes that controversial structures like the Newport Tower and the Bimini Seatrack are constructed by Zheng He's men.

His book is considered by many experts to not be founded in fact. One Chinese expert pronounced the theory "pure fiction". However, some academicists, like Dr. Sir John Elliot (Oxford University) do believe the theory.

Based on newly discovered evidence, Menzies modifies his theory from time to time. His new findings are usually bigger, bolder, and much less traditional than his previous ones. For example, he now claims some of Zheng He's ships travelled as far as Portugal and that his maps arrived to the hands of the Portuguese. He also now alleges that the Chinese records of the voyages were never, in fact, destroyed, and are waiting to be found.
Do you belive this theory? I think it could be true. So if the maps arrived Portugal that's why maybe Portuguese king João II already knew the existense of America pushing the Treaty of Tordesillas line to secure Brazil to Portugal.What do you think?
I think that if you believe this crap you are stupid. Menzies is looking for book sales and the bigger his claims the more sales he gets. Several months ago we had the same thread and I spent too much time trashing his idiotic claims. I should have saved my posts. If search is working, I will look for them. No reputable chinese scholar backs his claims.

:hmm: I don't see why the Chinese didn't do what you're saying, I won't dismiss anything. I might even read the book now to see for myself. But even if they did, it makes no difference, they would be added to the other people who discovered America before Columbus (I like to think the Vikings discovered it, as someone mentioned above)

I've read somehwere that the Chinese built these really really huge boats (130m long !) and had quite a really powerful navy, however it was under the grip of the eunuchs, who had a fight with the emperor, and the emperor then decided to outcast the eunuchs, and thus that was the end of the chinese Navy.
Yeah, it's vague, but it's from a long time ago, but isn't it a bit weird that the Chinese apparently never had a great navy ? They could have easily discovered America.

Now I don't know about the controversial book, but it seems a bit fishy, to me. "Da Vinci Code" syndrom and all the conspiration-theory-the-truth-is-not-what-you-think kind of things...

[QUOTE=steviejay(I like to think the Vikings discovered it, as someone mentioned above)[/QUOTE]

they did, there's no question

:hmm: I don't see why the Chinese didn't do what you're saying, I won't dismiss anything. I might even read the book now to see for myself. But even if they did, it makes no difference, they would be added to the other people who discovered America before Columbus (I like to think the Vikings discovered it, as someone mentioned above)


Its pretty much excepted historical fact that the Vikings landed in the Americas now...

I have heard good evidence, of the Celts, Sea Peoples, Carthraginians, Greeks, and Knight's Templars having finding the New World too....(Not saying its all true, but you never know)

and everytime these get brought up people ask "Why does Columbus and the Spanish get all the credit?"

And Thats because , he not only discovered land and people previously unknown to Europe, but also put forth the age of discovery and colonizaiton of the New World...Which the Chinese, Vikings, and anyone else, may have tried but was unsucsessful in doing.

I personally think it would be farfetched, if not impossible for two huge landmasses to go thousands of years since the invention of ships without being "discovered" by multiple civilizations that were more then capable to make a voyage there.

Columbus did not launch the age of discovery... that started far earlier in the 1400s with the discoveries of Madeira, Azores (halfway across the atlantic) and the exploration of Western Africa...

He launched the age of discovery and colonization of the Americas thought...

you have to take the context of the age of exploration into account.... Madeira was discovered in 1419/20, the Azores 1427, and serious exploration of the West African coast began in the 1430's... Columbus was a sugar trader who married the daughter of the governor of Madeira... there was a strong tradition of atlantic exploration for many years before Columbus, of which the discovery of the americas was the natural extension... Columbus had many predecessors, and it's shortsighted to think only of Columbus when talking of the discoveries... he was born into an age which was already very aware of exploring the atlantic

I've read somehwere that the Chinese built these really really huge boats (130m long !) and had quite a really powerful navy, however it was under the grip of the eunuchs, who had a fight with the emperor, and the emperor then decided to outcast the eunuchs, and thus that was the end of the chinese Navy.
Yeah, it's vague, but it's from a long time ago, but isn't it a bit weird that the Chinese apparently never had a great navy ? They could have easily discovered America.

Hmm.. I heard that it was an Emperor which was not well liked by the Mandarins which sponsored and supported such expeditions, but his son was a Supporter of the Mandarins and against the Enucnhs so when he died, his son took over the throne and stopped the voyages.

:hmm: I don't see why the Chinese didn't do what you're saying, I won't dismiss anything. I might even read the book now to see for myself. But even if they did, it makes no difference, they would be added to the other people who discovered America before Columbus (I like to think the Vikings discovered it, as someone mentioned above)
The problem is that you are not using any critical thinking skills at all to figure out when you are being sold utter nonsense, by a guy who is passing off crap as history and truth. His book is well written and convincing if you are ignorant and gullible.

His evidence is bogus for starters. Take his claim that the Newport Tower in Rhode island was built by the chinese.
The Newport Tower as an Observatory
• For this please refer to the work of Professor Penhallow whose learned articles appear in a number of Neara publications. Professor Penhallow, a Professor of Astronomy, has demonstrated the windows of the tower were very precisely built to enable astronomical observations to be made in three dimensions. Although this seemed to me to be true, I could not see the point. If the Chinese had wanted to calculate longitude, all that was required was an upright pole, which the observer could line up with Polaris at the moment the astronomical event occurred (please refer to Appendix 2 of my book). Professor Penhallow said I was wrong – today indeed all that is needed is a pole but 600 years ago the earth’s axis had shifted due to its ‘bulge’ so that Polaris’ apparent position was not on an extension of the South Pole – North Pole axis. During a six-hour observation time this could have thrown up a six-degree longitude error. However, and here is the dynamite – the windows of the tower and cusps on the ledges of the windows enabled Polaris’ apparent position to be corrected as the earth precessed. Hence precise longitude calculations could be made. So whoever built the tower already had very advanced knowledge for they built in methods of correcting Polaris apparent precision and as far as I know only the Chinese could do so. In my submission if Professor Penhallow is correct, only the Chinese could have been the builders of the windows in the tower.
To swallow this you have to swallow that the chinese invented longitude calculation prior to 1421; that his polaris correction "facts" are true. Can yuou explain what this sentence means, "...the windows of the tower and cusps on the ledges of the windows enabled Polaris’ apparent position to be corrected as the earth precessed."?

The real answer:
"The Newport Tower in Newport, Rhode Island, has been proposed as an ancient Viking construction… It is singular in appearance, at least in the New World, and has been the focus of both inquiry and speculation.

There is a significant problem, however, with the hypothesis that the tower is Viking and predates the accepted period of European settlement of the region. The English settled the area around Newport in A.D. 1639, and there is no mention made by these settlers of a mysterious and already existing stone tower. They almost certainly would have noted it had there been one.

However, there was enough controversy about the possibility of a pre-Columbus Viking connection to the tower that an archaeological investigation was conducted around and under the tower (Godfrey 1951). Most of the artifacts were pieces of pottery, iron nails, clay tobacco pipes, buttons, and buckles. All of these items can be traced to Scotland, England, or the English colonies in America and were manufactured between the seventeenth and nineteenth centuries (Hattendorf 1997). The investigators even found the preserved impression of a colonial bootprint in the soil beneath the stone foundation of the tower. For a seventeenth-century bootprint to have been left under the tower, the tower must have been built either sometime during or sometime after the seventeenth century.

Finally, the lime mortar bonding the stones used to build the tower has been radiocarbon-dated. The carbon date matches quite precisely the historical record and the artifacts recovered, A.D. 1665 (Hertz 1997). The mysterious tower turns out to be, in actual fact, a windmill likely built by the then governor of Rhode Island, Benedict Arnold, the grandfather and namesake of the famous traitor (it is even mentioned in his will, dated to 1677). The architecture of the tower turns out not to be unique after all; it is a close match for a windmill built in A.D. 1632 in Chesterton, England (Hertz 1997). The senior Benedict Arnold was brought up within just a few kilometers of Chesterton; perhaps he liked the unique design and decided to have a copy built on his property in Rhode Island."

“Frauds, Myths and Mysteries Science and Pseudoscience in Archaeology”, Feder, K.L., McGraw-Hill, 2002 (4th edition), pp 139-40.

References
Godfrey, W. 1951 “The Archaeology of the Old Stone Mill in Newport, Rhode Island”. American Antiquity, 17:120-129.

Hattendorf, I. 1997 “From the collection: William S. Godfrey’s Old Stone Mill archaeological collection”, Newport History 68(2):109-111.

· Old boat anchors – A large boat anchor was found in Central California (USA). It was found in the rocks of a cliff at Buena Vista Peaks, Amador County. The anchor pre-dates the vessels used by Columbus. The coordinates are: N 38 deg. 15’, W 120 deg 52' 30" The spot where the anchor was found is actually on an Indian reservation, just a stone's throw from a holy site for the local Indian tribe.

No evidence for how the anchors were dated.

Real science is applied:

“In 1973 a vessel dredging off the coast of California brought up a sizable rock, carved into the shape of a doughnut. In 1975, twenty or so similar stones were found by divers off the Palos Verdes peninsula in southern California. These discoveries generated a great deal of publicity at the time. Some suggested that the stones were identical to anchor stones used on Chinese sailing vessels as far back as A.D. 500. Reference was made to the Chinese legend of the land of Fusang, supposedly visited by a Buddhist monk about 1,500 years ago.

As Frost (1982) points out, Fusang was placed on the Asian coast by ancient Chinese mapmakers. Nevertheless, some have tried to identify Fusang as America, carefully selecting elements of the legend that seem to reflect the biogeography of the California coast. Even some professional archaeologists suggested that the Palos Verdes anchor stones represented physical evidence of the ancient Chinese exploration of the western coast of North America - direct physical evidence like that seen in the examples provided by the expeditions of Frobisher, Coronado, and de Soto.

The Palos Verdes stones were examined by the geology department at the University of California, Santa Barbara, in 1980. If the anchor stones could be shown to have been made from rock present only in China, the case for a Chinese presence in the New World before Columbus would be much stronger. Unfortunately for the supporters of this hypothesis, it was determined that the alleged Chinese anchors were made of California rock (Frost 1982:26), most likely Monterey shale, a common local rock type.

The stones looked like Chinese anchors, however, because that is precisely what they were. Chinese American fishermen commonly trawled the waters of California in the nineteenth century. They sailed in their traditional craft, the junk. Indeed, the Palos Verdes stones are almost certainly the anchors, moorings, and net weights of these fishermen. They provide no help to those who wish to prove that Fusang is, in reality, ancient California because the anchors clearly were made locally by historically recognized Chinese sailors.”

“Frauds, Myths and Mysteries Science and Pseudoscience in Archaeology”, Feder, K.L., McGraw-Hill, 2002 (4th edition), pp 113-114

Reference
Frost, F. 1982, The Palos Verdes Chinese anchor mystery, Archaeology, Jan./Feb. 23-27

Gavin Menzies, a former British Royal Navy officer, argues in the bestseller 1421: The Year China Discovered America, that squadrons from Zheng He's fleets, between 1421 and 1423, did indeed get to the Americas first--as well as to Greenland, Antarctica, Australia and New Zealand. Unfortunately for supporters of this theory, he offers no proof, only a great deal of circumstantial evidence marred by questionable scholarship.

Menzies has no "smoking gun" that proves his theory-- because the xenophobic Confucian officials who advised the later Ming emperors destroyed all records of these sea voyages. So he relies upon three types of evidence.

First, Menzies claims that Chinese maps from as early as 1428, allegedly showing parts of North and South America and some Atlantic islands, were used by European explorers (including Columbus) when they started their own voyages decades later.

Second, he adduces allegedly tangible evidence of pre-Columbian contact between Asia and the Americas, such as: flora and fauna (maize, sweet potatoes, Asiatic chickens, coconuts) that must have been transported by humans; "DNA evidence" that links American Indians to the Chinese; wrecks of Chinese ships and medieval Chinese anchors found in California.

Third, Menzies relies upon, and constantly reminds the reader of, his own naval expertise which gives him a mystical understanding that landlubbers lack; for example, "if I was able to state with confidence the course a Chinese fleet had taken, it was because...my own knowledge of the winds, currents, and sea conditions they faced told me the route as surely as if there had been a written record of it" (p. 83).

Authors that aim to rewrite 500 years of accepted history should rely less on subjective claims and more on hard evidence. And this is where Menzies ultimately fails to persuade. First, he does not read Chinese and thus cites no primary sources--a problem even if one accepts that the records were all destroyed. Even more fatal to his argument, Menzies often fails to provide corroborating data for many of his claims. To cite just four examples, he: never provides the DNA evidence supposedly linking the American Indians and Chinese; fails to document the discovery of Chinese anchors off the coast of California; appeals to unspecified "local experts," as when arguing that remains of 15th century Chinese shipwrecks have been found in New Zealand; and says that a Taiwanese museum's copy of a Chinese map allegedly showing Australia and Tasmania "unfortunately...has been lost."

Questionable speculative leaps are also Menzies's stock-in-trade, as when claiming that the inscription on a stone column in the Cape Verde Islands (off Africa's western coast) is in Maylayam, a language of South India, and that this proves the Chinese were there. Yet why would a Chinese fleet admiral order a message inscribed in a language other than Chinese? And sometimes Menzies just plain contradicts himself, as when he asserts that "sea levels in 1421 were lower than today" (p. 257) because of modern global warming, but then later claims "Greenland was circumnavigable in 1421-2, for...the climate...was far warmer than it is today" (p. 306).

Ultimately, however, Menzies's presentation in 1421 is much like that delivered at the United Nations recently by Secretary of State Powell regarding Iraqi weapons of mass destruction: convincing only to true believers and leaving others at best, in the words of the old hymn, "almost persuaded.

From a newspaper review of the book.

the most simple explination would be that the turks went their, and not the chinese.

Ahhh yes the Turks, with their long, distinguished seafaring history.

Ahhh yes the Turks, with their long, distinguished seafaring history.

A)they were master sof the Med. Sea for quite a long period of time- or perhaps you did forget that the turks did have a long, distinguished period of naval supremecy in the med sea, filling in the gap lef tover by the ex-Byzantine empire

B)your also forgteeting that the Ottomans either directlyl controlled, or were allied with nations who did control some of the best ports on the North African atlantic sea board- the perfec tplaces to launch ships to western africa fro trade

C)the only other evidence that the Turks did anything fo the sort is the -apperntt- worship of islam by a tribe in the new world, but forum user aaminion00 can give you more specifics on that the I can

-now then, am i sayign the turks did do it? No, not really- but thie ris evidence that suggests they may have done so, and dose so quitelly, which is understandable, when one considered they had so many naval rivals to deal with, that they woudl keep such a discovery quite

the Piri Reis map is Turkish- thus, it dose make sense that it was Turks who made the expiditions to actuallty discovery what was on that map

you have to take the context of the age of exploration into account.... Madeira was discovered in 1419/20, the Azores 1427, and serious exploration of the West African coast began in the 1430's... Columbus was a sugar trader who married the daughter of the governor of Madeira... there was a strong tradition of atlantic exploration for many years before Columbus, of which the discovery of the americas was the natural extension... Columbus had many predecessors, and it's shortsighted to think only of Columbus when talking of the discoveries... he was born into an age which was already very aware of exploring the atlantic

I am not saying Columbus did it all on his own at all....I am saying that his discovery, not Leif Erikson's, some Chinese sailors, or Anglo-Irish fishing ships's discoveries, lead to the colonization and European occupation of the Americas.

I'd say the apparent DNA connection is easily explained by the fact that the Native Americans are desecned from Asatics migrating into the New World via the Bering Land bridge. The Chinese probaly descend from different groups that were related to the ones that left on the migration.

However seeing as the article Birdjagaur posted says the author dosnt even give the edivdence for his claim that's just a guess.

This is extremely frustrating, I spent a half an hour trying to find a specific quote from St. Patrick of Ireland where he introduces the idea of land west that will one day be safe passage to the Irish. All though its presence alone wouldn’t be that impressive, it simply shows logic instilled by some people that something else could be out there (regardless of whether or not the world was flat); such as the case in that Chinese poem shown before. St. Patrick lived in early fifth century by the way.


All though it doesn’t mean much, considering I never took time and effort into studying Chinese exploration (yet), I remember hitting a note with my history professor in relation to Europe’s exploration that the furthest the Chinese reported to have gone to was Zanzibar. Granted, that isn't solid information, it’s just some information.

I am not saying Columbus did it all on his own at all....I am saying that his discovery, not Leif Erikson's, some Chinese sailors, or Anglo-Irish fishing ships's discoveries, lead to the colonization and European occupation of the Americas.

No, no, no! Are you saying that the Age of Exploration only started because columbus discovered America and started colonizing it? If yes, my answer is NO. Portugal also colonized Africa and Madeira and Azores, such as Spain that colonized the canaries. Also it is Age of EXPLORATION, Portugal made great discoveries much before columbus reached America.

This is extremely frustrating, I spent a half an hour trying to find a specific quote from St. Patrick of Ireland where he introduces the idea of land west that will one day be safe passage to the Irish. All though its presence alone wouldn’t be that impressive, it simply shows logic instilled by some people that something else could be out there (regardless of whether or not the world was flat); such as the case in that Chinese poem shown before. St. Patrick lived in early fifth century by the way.

I hope you don't believe that St Patrick thought the world was flat? As far as I know the only person in late antiquity who believed such a thing was Lactantius (and *he* thought the devil was the third Person of the Trinity, so we can discount him...). Of course in antiquity and the Middle Ages it was generally accepted that there must be a big continent in the southern hemisphere - the Antipodes - to "balance" the landmass in the north. People argued about whether there could be human beings there. Most people thought not, on the basis that the equatorial regions must be too hot to pass through, so anyone living in the southern hemisphere must be unrelated to those living in the north. And clearly that would be impossible on the assumption that all human beings were genealogically related. Pope Zacharias, who reigned in the eighth century, pronounced the notion that there were human beings in the Antipodes to be heretical, on this basis; a pronouncement that led to people in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries laughing at him for his stupidity. In fact, of course, it was a fairly reasonable thing to say, given what was believed at the time; the alternative would have been to accept that there were human beings not descended from Adam and Eve. Anyway, the point is that people believed in the Antipodes long before there was any good evidence for their existence; it's just coincidence that Australia happened to be there. Similarly, people in antiquity could have believed in lands to the west without having any good reason to do so.

Now, I was actually invited to work on this 1421 book, specifically to write all the footnotes, because the author had somehow not kept track of his references throughout the decades or however long it took him to write the thing. His references were in the form of "so-and-so said this to me" and therefore required serious revision and research simply to work out where he got it all from. Luckily I decided I was too busy with other things to dive into this ghastly quagmire! It doesn't invalidate what he says in itself, but personally I would be suspicious of someone who spends years formulating a theory without noting down his sources as he goes along. Perhaps that's just my anally retentive side speaking, though. Not that I have any other side.

I hope you don't believe that St Patrick thought the world was flat?


I don't have enough information to say anything about that, just introducing a contradictory idea that someone *could* mention about the belief of possible land westwards. I just wanted to use St. Patrick as some sort of figure head with a nice quote. The information about Pope Zacharias is actually interesting, cool find.

Of course, the ancients knew perfectly well that the world was round. Pliny the Elder deals with the Antipodes in "Natural History" II 65 (stating that there are people living all over the globe, with their feet pointing at each other).

He does also address the issue at hand also in II 67. He argues that the lands we know are completely surrounded by ocean, so we have no idea what is on the other side - whether there is nothing but sea covering the other half of the world or not.

The whole of the western ocean is now navigated, from Gades and the Pillars of Hercules, round Spain and Gaul. The greater part of the northern ocean has also been navigated, under the auspices of the Emperor Augustus, his fleet having been carried round Germany to the promontory of the Cimbri; from which spot they descried an immense sea, or became acquainted with it by report, which extends to the country of the Scythians, and the districts that are chilled by excessive moisture. On this account it is not at all probable, that the ocean should be deficient in a region where moisture so much abounds. In like manner, towards the east, from the Indian sea, all that part which lies in the same latitude, and which bends round towards the Caspian, has been explored by the Macedonian arms, in the reigns of Seleucus and Antiochus, who wished it to be named after themselves, the Seleucian or Antiochian Sea. About the Caspian, too, many parts of the shores of the ocean have been explored, so that nearly the whole of the north has been sailed over in one direction or another. Nor can our argument be much affected by the point that has been so much discussed, respecting the Palus Mæotis, whether it be a bay of the same ocean, as is, I understand, the opinion of some persons, or whether it be the overflowing of a narrow channel connected with a different ocean. On the other side of Gades, proceeding from the same western point, a great part of the southern ocean, along Mauritania, has now been navigated. Indeed the greater part of this region, as well as of the east, as far as the Arabian Gulf, was surveyed in consequence of Alexander's victories. When Caius Cæsar, the son of Augustus, had the conduct of affairs in that country, it is said that they found the remains of Spanish vessels which had been wrecked there. While the power of Carthage was at its height, Hanno published an account of a voyage which he made from Gades to the extremity of Arabia; Himilco was also sent, about the same time, to explore the remote parts of Europe. Besides, we learn from Corn. Nepos, that one Eudoxus, a contemporary of his, when he was flying from king Lathyrus, set out from the Arabian Gulf, and was carried as far as Gades. And long before him, Cælius Antipater informs us, that he had seen a person who had sailed from Spain to Æthiopia for the purposes of trade. The same Cornelius Nepos, when speaking of the northern circumnavigation, tells us that Q. Metellus Celer, the colleague of L. Afranius in the consulship, but then a proconsul in Gaul, had a present made to him by the king of the Suevi, of certain Indians, who sailing from India for the purpose of commerce, had been driven by tempests into Germany. Thus it appears, that the seas which flow com pletely round the globe, and divide it, as it were, into two parts, exclude us from one part of it, as there is no way open to it on either side. And as the contemplation of these things is adapted to detect the vanity of mortals, it seems incumbent on me to display, and lay open to our eyes, the whole of it, whatever it be, in which there is nothing which can satisfy the desires of certain individuals.

Of course, the ancients knew perfectly well that the world was round. Pliny the Elder deals with the Antipodes in "Natural History" II 65 (stating that there are people living all over the globe, with their feet pointing at each other).

He does also address the issue at hand also in II 67. He argues that the lands we know are completely surrounded by ocean, so we have no idea what is on the other side - whether there is nothing but sea covering the other half of the world or not.
As always, your posts are enlightening. Thanks. Many people fail to realize that "ancient people" weren't stupid. They were just as smart as "modern" people, but with less actual knowledge of the world. I'd thought we had put old Gavin Menzies in his rightful place months ago. He's nothing but a self promotoing huckster who preys on the ignorant and stupid, who buy his books thinking there is some science to them.

BTW, your book is excellent, I'm part way through it, but severely distracted by Rome: Total War.

BTW, your book is excellent, I'm part way through it, but severely distracted by Rome: Total War.

Thank you! If my computer were beefy enough to run Rome:Total War and similar games the book would never have been written.

I'm told that the notion that people in the Middle Ages and antiquity believed the world to be flat was actually invented in a Victorian novel about Christopher Columbus, which invented the complete lie that Columbus' proposed expedition was opposed because everyone said the world was flat and he'd sail off the edge. In fact, of course, it was because everyone knew well that the world was far too large west to sail from Spain to China. And of course they were right. Aristotle knew the size of the earth better than Columbus did, who fiddled his figures to get the funding. But still people today think that he was opposed by religious fools who knew no science and were mired in superstition and bigotry... How many times do you see terms such as "medieval" or "Dark Ages" used to mean stupidity or ignorance? Seems to me people who do that are the ignorant ones.

I'm told that the notion that people in the Middle Ages and antiquity believed the world to be flat was actually invented in a Victorian novel about Christopher Columbus, which invented the complete lie that Columbus' proposed expedition was opposed because everyone said the world was flat and he'd sail off the edge. In fact, of course, it was because everyone knew well that the world was far too large west to sail from Spain to China. And of course they were right. Aristotle knew the size of the earth better than Columbus did, who fiddled his figures to get the funding. But still people today think that he was opposed by religious fools who knew no science and were mired in superstition and bigotry... How many times do you see terms such as "medieval" or "Dark Ages" used to mean stupidity or ignorance? Seems to me people who do that are the ignorant ones.
What a great story! Do you have an actual reference to such a victorian origin to the flat earth fiction? I would lke to track it down.

BTW, I had to buy a new video card to get R:TW to run.

It was in fact the American novelist Washington Irving, the author of "Sleepy Hollow", who wrote "The Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus" in 1828 (so I was wrong in saying it was Victorian). In it he presented the now-famous scene of Columbus facing his opponents at Salamanca, where they inform him that everyone knows that the world is flat. The scene was completely fictional: whilst Columbus did of course encounter opposition to his plans, it's not even known that any confrontation happened at Salamanca. And we know, of course, that it had nothing to do with the supposed flatness of the earth.

It seems that the myth of medieval flat-earthism was given wider currency by Andrew Dickson Wright, the co-founder of Cornell University, who in 1896 produced a book with the irenic title "The Warfare of Science with Theology". You can read it at http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/andrew_white/Andrew_White.html and it's chapter 2 that deals with the shape of the earth. You can see that White struggles to support his claim that the Christians believed in a flat earth, citing mainly Church Fathers who said that it doesn't matter what shape the earth was, and admitting that people such as Origen or Thomas Aquinas knew it was round. In fact, a glance through the introduction shows that White's work was inspired not by a dispassionate study of history but by the real struggles between science and reactionary religion in his own day, in America, primarily between Darwinists and creationists. He extrapolated out from this to form a theory that science and religion have always been at each other's throats and wrote his book to support the theory. Of course, today we know much better, and White's book is apparently regarded as something of a joke among historians of thought. Nevertheless, his views seem to have become the mainstream attitude today, at least in the west, and especially in America. How often is it said - or not even said, but simply assumed - that science and religion have nothing in common and are eternally at war? We find the same myth repeated by the modern Washington Irving, Dan Brown, and generally accepted at large. In fact the notion of science and religion being intrinsically opposed is as modern - as much a caricature - as the notion that the medievals thought the world was flat.

There's an interesting examination of all the evidence on this matter at http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/flat_earth_myth.html Chapter 5 is especially good.

I'm pretty sure that the ancients and later the advanced civilisations in the Middle East knew the world was round, but is there any evidence to suggest that Europeans in the Dark and Middle Ages did? The point is, just because the ancient Greeks knew that the world was round doesn't necessarily mean that Europe in the Dark and Middle Ages did...In high school we were explicitly taught that in Europe in the Dark and Middle Ages Europeans used to believe that if you sail too far you would fall over the edge of the world. Ditto with highschool textbooks. Now, I'm perfectly willing to believe that my high school history teachers didn't know anything but is there any evidence of a common belief in Europe that the world was round? And was this belief sanctioned by the Church or was it considered heretical like the earth revolving around the sun?

I only read a scientific report about this topic. There it says that there was a big Chinese expedition: They went south the East-coast of Asia and discoverd the islands of Indonesia and maybe Austrialia, then they sailed westwards over India and even reached the East-coast of Africa. Maybe they also sailed up the Red Sea. After a succeful expidition, the Admiral(I can't remember the name) also wanted to start an second gread voyager into the East(into the direction of America) but because of changed political circumstance and money problems the Emperor didn't agree and so the plans for the other expedition have been chancelled. But about their first expidition there is a lot of information like trade goods or construction plans of the ships(as large as the Titanic or maybe a little larger).

[Uiler] If your school taught you that Europeans in the Middle Ages believed you would fall off the world if you sailed too far, you should sue them. That's simply a lie. Have a look at the link I gave before - http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/flat_earth_myth.html - especially chapter 5, which looks at all the evidence for flat-earthism/globular-earthism from antiquity up to the Renaissance. The conclusion is quite clear: there was the odd crackpot in late antiquity and the Middle Ages who believed that the earth is flat, but such crackpots still exist today (there really is still a Flat Earth Society). By far the majority of people knew the truth, just as they do today (I should add that this applies to common people as well as the learned: sailors, for example, were well aware that distant islands or ships disappeared below the horizon, and they knew why). And I can certainly tell you that at no time in history has the church ever condemned the notion that the earth is round. In fact, the scientific knowledge of the ancient Greeks was pretty well preserved by the Christians, even when they didn't add to it much; encyclopaedists such as John of Damascus and Isidore of Seville made sure of that. Isidore, who was one of the most widely read authors throughout the Middle Ages (to such an extent that he's now the unofficial patron of the Internet), was quite explicit on the roundness of the earth. So was the Venerable Bede, who was also extremely widely read (and is the only Englishman to be considered not merely a saint but a Doctor of the Church).