Tracing Supply Lines

Supply lines are traced just like resources are, by roads, harbours and airports. However, supply lines differ in several key ways:

-supply lines can be traced back to any friendly city or airfield, rather than the capitol.
-supply lines extend offroad or into enemy borders for a limited distance, perhaps 3-4 tiles. However, they may not be traced through enemy units of any kind, cities, or Zones of Control.


Effects of Supply Lines

Units may function without supplies for a variable number of turns. Generally speaking, this figure drops as technology progresses. A Warrior or Spearman is capable of foraging for food and can go without supplies for a long time, but a Modern Armour unit is dependant on constant supplies. Exceptions occur to this rule, for instance Guerillas are capable of functioning without supplies for a much longer time than comparable units.

Units that find themselves out of supplies are reduced to a movement of 1, and attack and defend at half strength.

Display of Supply

Supply is displayed in two ways. First, a button at the main map level overlays the map with shaded tiles depicting the range of supply. Second, in the unit display box (where the remaining moves etc are displayed) the supply status of the unit is shown. Statuses displayed are:

-Supplied.
-Unsupplied: turns remaining.
-Out of Supply.

So Frekk, you've seen MY model for supply, do you like either of them?

My ideal model would most probably be a 'fusion' of the two I mentioned. Basically, that a unit can go freely into enemy territory UP to its operational range. After this, it begins to suffer from degredation. If you capture a city or build a fort in enemy territory, then your operational range is calculated from this new point. Where the fusion occurs, though, is that you also have to always be able to trace a direct line between the unit and some kind of friendly territory. The 'supply points' just make it much easier to do this, as they represent a 'shortening' of your supply lines. If your unit ends up 'out of supply' then it might end up highlighted in either red or black to warn you.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

Wouldn't it be difficult to model degradation in a simple way?

Hello,

at least it can function like following.
Every unit has some different supply points. A jet fighter has only one point (so it has to come back to its airport, like now) an infantry unit has e.g. 5-10 points. A unit with zero supply points is either immovable (land, naval) or crashes (air).

You have something like a new supply unit. It represent e.g, the tross after the medival armies or the mobile petrol stations of modern warfare.

All your cities, harbour and airports can refill a unit as the supply units can refill units (so when unit is standing on the same field like a supply unit it will be filled automatically).

This refilling is functioning quite easy. Every supply unit has 20 or more supply points. When another unit is coming on the same field then supply points of the supply units are decreased and supply points of other unit are increased.

So in gameplay you just have to build supply units, move them to your cities and move them behind your units. When a fighting unit is tending to have to less supply points then you move it to your supply unit or your supply unit to the fighting unit - quite easy, but very realistic. When fighting units are conquering opponent cities they can also refill their supply points there, as they do when you want to repair them.

Hi Frekk,

Simulating degredation can be done VERY simply. For every hex your unit is beyond its optimal range, it suffers a 5% reduction to its morale, firepower and, most likely, its attack and defense strengths. In addition, this is also the chance, per turn, that the unit will suffer damage from attrition. The chance to suffer damage will also change according to terrain factors AND the amount of damage the unit has already suffered! Secondly, a unit outside its OR can NOT heal-even after battlefield medicine.
If your units performance is degraded, it will undergo some kind of 'graphical' alteration to inform you this is the case!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

5% is a too-small increment, given current stats used for ADM which I doubt very much will change.

I confess that I just picked a number out of the air. The main issue is that the further you get beyond your optimal range, the worse your units perform, AND the more likely they are to lose hps due to hunger, disease, desertion and/or breakdowns!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

In Rise of Nations you need a supply wagon or something to keep your units from loosing health in enemy territory. There could be something like that, right?

There absolutely could be a resupply unit, especially if units will take hits for being outside of resupply limits.

I like the idea of a supply unit that can be moved by truck (a new unit with the ability to transport infantry units or supplies on the the ground), and helicopters and airplanes which can drop supplies for ground units.

But shouldn't pillaging resupply the unit, at least a little?

But shouldn't pillaging resupply the unit, at least a little?

Before WW2, yes.

Another cool thing would be applying 'scorched earth' :D

I'm a little sceptical.....although the current system of having all resources and luxury connecting through your capital isn't good. There's coal in the North right? I doubt it has to go all the way through London to get to any other place.

To gain a resource or luxury you should have to be connected to the city that has them in their radius, not the capital.

Tracing Supply Lines

Supply lines are traced just like resources are, by roads, harbours and airports. However, supply lines differ in several key ways:

-supply lines can be traced back to any friendly city or airfield, rather than the capitol.
-supply lines extend offroad or into enemy borders for a limited distance, perhaps 3-4 tiles. However, they may not be traced through enemy units of any kind, cities, or Zones of Control.


Effects of Supply Lines

Units may function without supplies for a variable number of turns. Generally speaking, this figure drops as technology progresses. A Warrior or Spearman is capable of foraging for food and can go without supplies for a long time, but a Modern Armour unit is dependant on constant supplies. Exceptions occur to this rule, for instance Guerillas are capable of functioning without supplies for a much longer time than comparable units.

Units that find themselves out of supplies are reduced to a movement of 1, and attack and defend at half strength.

Display of Supply

Supply is displayed in two ways. First, a button at the main map level overlays the map with shaded tiles depicting the range of supply. Second, in the unit display box (where the remaining moves etc are displayed) the supply status of the unit is shown. Statuses displayed are:

-Supplied.
-Unsupplied: turns remaining.
-Out of Supply.

Their stats shouldn't decrease but i like the foraging idea.Maybe after a certian amount of turns they have to stop for a turn to get food or ammo.If you're following a road that is connected to you're capital,you should never have to do this

I'm a little sceptical.....although the current system of having all resources and luxury connecting through your capital isn't good. There's coal in the North right? I doubt it has to go all the way through London to get to any other place.

To gain a resource or luxury you should have to be connected to the city that has them in their radius, not the capital.

That's not how it works now. You connect to the resource itself already. The only time you connect to the capitol for resources is for foreign trade. Eg, say you have coal and a bunch of cities in the North, and London and a bunch of cities in the south, but no roads between them. If you connect to the coal, all your cities in the north will have coal, but not those in the south (unless you build a road joining north and south). Your capitol doesn't come into play, unless you are importing the coal - or hoping to export it.

Their stats shouldn't decrease

If their stats don't decrease, what is the point of supply?

A melee-type army with no food really doesn't fight so good, a modern army with no bullets or oil can hardly fight at all.

In Rise of Nations you need a supply wagon or something to keep your units from loosing health in enemy territory. There could be something like that, right?
The problem is that in a game like RoN, you can easily target enemy Supply Wagons and slow him down. In Civ you're dealing with large stacks, so any units at the "bottom" of the stack are pretty much invincible.

If their stats don't decrease, what is the point of supply?

A melee-type army with no food really doesn't fight so good, a modern army with no bullets or oil can hardly fight at all.

Well i dont think they should just slowly increase by 1,if their out of ammo or gas,or food then their stats should all be decreased to 0 and then that way they can be captured.

Tracing Supply Lines
Supply lines are traced just like resources are, by roads, harbours and airports. However, supply lines differ in several key ways:
-supply lines can be traced back to any friendly city or airfield, rather than the capitol.
-supply lines extend offroad or into enemy borders for a limited distance, perhaps 3-4 tiles. However, they may not be traced through enemy units of any kind, cities, or Zones of Control.
I like both the Operational Range and Supply Lines ideas. To simplify calculating the range, why not just use movement points as a basis? In order to be in supply/op range, a unit must be within so many movement points of a friendly city. This would take into consideration the effects of terrain, building roads, and enemy territory.

Sure ... that is one way you could do it.

You could even allow certain techs to let you be further MPs away from the source. Motor transport for instance should give a bonus.

If you connect to the coal, all your cities in the north will have coal, but not those in the south (unless you build a road joining north and south).

That north-south road will usually be connected to the capital anyway, which is why I perceived it to be the way I said.

I have posted some thoughts here and there, and finally decided to put all my thoughts on supply issues into one post. So here goes:

1a. First of all we don't like micro management, so no need for any supply units (on land that is, I'll come to that). They would only make a slow game in the later stages even slower. Roads/RR are more than enough to keep your cities and units supplied. Road/RR supply would also cause the neat side effect that you can't do this unrealistic dash with a warrior or scout the first thing you do, who is able to cover the entire continent AND keep your capital updated with a fresh map of its findings over thousands of years. You can't venture too far or you'll fall out of supply. Settlers would have to be supply sources of their own, since they would consist of roughly as many different types of people as in a city (which is a supply source), after all that's what they are there for, founding a city. This would also mean that an escorting unit following a settler would also be supplied.

1b. As a little side note, you should obviously be able to transfer food the way you like between connected cities. If you have one of those remote desert cities that are just there for the need to connect other cities and potentially bring you future resources like saltpeter or oil, you should obviously be able to send them food from say a city that has reached Pop 6 and lacks an aqueduct or river.

2a. An unsupplied unit is a unit that isn't on or adjacent to a tile with a road/RR connecting to your supply source, which could preferably be one of two cities that are connected to each other, friendly or neutral (unless this particular neutral has some sort of agreement with your enemy or another reason not to help you), not enemy. More ideas on supply sources could obviously be discussed. This would also have a neat side effect, namely the unrealistic stack combat we see. My main problem with Civ warfare is how it forces you to attack cities, which in reality is what you can and want to avoid. You wanna try to go around and cut its supply lines, since a city is often much easier to defend than open ground.

2b. An unsupplied unit loses 1 hp/turn. When down to nothing it is eliminated. There are ways to supply them from the outside (which I'm discussing further down), allowing them to maintain their strength, not heal. Guerillas should take longer to wear down, maybe they'd lose 1 hp every two turns instead or something. An unsupplied city is not able to produce and would slowly starve. As a side note, I do though wish to stress that I agree with the people saying that a bombarded/starved city/metropolis should retain its defensive bonus.

2c. An idea that might seem a bit complicated goes like this: Unsupplied units don't cost any upkeep as long as they are unsupplied. Their upkeep is kept in a special upkeep pool. If they are saved from their trap and back in supply, half their upkeep for the time unsupplied is paid, the rest goes to your treasury. This is because you wouldn't have to give them food or ammo when unsupplied (unless you do as in points 4a, 4b and 5, which would be handled in a different way), but they'd still want to be paid for their work when back in safety. If a unit is eliminated, the total upkeep for the number of turns unsupplied goes directly to your treasury.

3. Enemy roads (not railroads, though) are usable, but you cannot attack in the same turn as you use them. You would have to state whether you wish to use the road or not. If you don't use it, feel free to attack if in range. If you do use it, you can't even fortify in that turn. The roads only provide supply if you control them (if you were the last one to use them, the game would have to remember and you could have a function where you could see which part of which road was under which side's control, if you'd lose track on it). Once you control a railroad, you'd obviously get to use it as well.

4a. In my opinion, naval supply (and trade) should work differently. This was something I stated in another thread and has a lot to do with making your navy count for more than being just funny toys. You should have to have Merchant Ships to keep an island supplied. These would obviously be vulnerable and in need of escort. You could potentially use transports, but merchant ships would be much cheaper (also making you less worried about their necessity gameplay wise). This way, you'd be able to load a ship with supplies and send it to a coastal city that is cut off from land supply (see 2b), also making naval blockades less abstract. These ideas are, though, more about giving the navy a more realistic role than it has now. The main purpose of navies (apart from offshore bombardment and troop movement) is to protect or attack supply ships, that's why I want merchant ships but not the old land caravans from Civ 1 or Civ 2.

4b. A costal city that receives naval supply should be able to act as a supply source for the rest of the island or your (or a neutral's) part of that continent, depending on how much it receives. How to balance this could be a matter of discussion/calculation. I'll not be bothered at this stage.

5. Another idea concerning 2b and the question of supplying units that have been cut off is that of air supply. Have a bomber make a normal bombing run, except instead of dropping bombs it can drop supplies. The drop can fail (misdropped) or be intercepted (through fighters on air superiority). If the drop is successful, the tile it drops on does not act as a temporary supply source for that turn, but the units on or moved to the tile itself are temporarily supplied for that turn. What should be needed to keep units supplied according to points 4a, 4b and 5 then? Well, possibly 1 food + 1 shield/tile (and possibly/probably the number of units in there) you try to supply, temporarily taken from a supplied city of your choice (you could obviously take the food from one city and the shield from another). This would simulate dropping rations, ammo, clothes etc into the unsupplied tile.

There you are, hope the rest of you are as fanatic about supply issues as I am. :D

I posted this in another thread (reachable from the Current Topics thread) a few months ago. My ideas are actually remarkably close to those of Frekk! :goodjob: