Hello.
For those who havn't read the whole other thread (it's long and boring), I've been practicing 20K cultural HOF games at all different difficulty levels, with great success, partly because of some great comments by some posters there.

I just used some of these ideas to do a Deity level game, and thought that since this is the first such game I have heard of, I thought it might merit a separate thread, which I will try to make more interesting.

First the main idea : to achieve a true earliest date possible, this is not a "destroy the AIs and then start building up" but a "rush culture from the start and hope that the AIs don't reach a domination victory. The main idea is to use Babylonians, with their cheap culture buildings, get a good starting location, use SGL when possible, and make as many wonders as possible in the capital.

Now the details :
Map Settings : the idea here, as opposed to milking games, is to get the WORSE map possible, because I mostly care about my capital, so the worse the AIs are, the easiest for me.
So I am using tiny archipelago, 80% water, no barbs, arid, cold and 3 million years old.
In those settings, no river exist, and barely a few lakes. Many times, this is enough to slow even the crazy Deity AIs to a crawl.

The Civs : Babylonians, for Religious (smaller anarchy, cheaper temp and cath.) and Sci (cheaper Lib, University) and greater chance of SGL.
Nothing else comes close, as the UU is not important, as we will have a wonder based GA anyway.

Ennemies : Mongols and Zulus. this has become a tradition for me. First they are expansionnist, which is the worse trait in this setting, and militaristic, which while it increases their chance of attacking me, at least doesn't increase their wonder-building capabilities. They also start with the same techs, which reduces slightly (maybe?) their trading capacities when they meet each other.

I put them on least aggressive although they still are very aggresive, also since they always have 20x my military.

Default rules apart from that.

The start : The absolute minimum I needed was fresh water (which means a lake in this case) for irrigation and free aq., and coast for Colossus. I also need at least a cow, or 2 wheats, or a wheat and ivory (for SoZ).

The key : this was actually an idea that I originally heard from Punkbass (see other thread), I NEED a masonry SGL (this is my first tech). Although this greatly increases the amounts of start to do, it DRAMATICALLY helps the date, on all difficiculty levels. I have gotten the Pyramids as early as 3200 in some lower difficulty levels, 2850 in this particular game.
This gives a great early culture boost, stops the AI from starting projects for a while, and boosts growth in all city. The impact of this is huge.

Of course that means 20 starts on average played this masonry. In this particular case I had to do something like 30, because my first Masonry SGL I was on same island as Zulu :sad:
So on total something like 500-700 manual restarts (mapfinder is not really good for this).

Next : The actual game

The game which I ended up keeping was lucky in many respects.
Starting location:
Big lake (biggest I have ever seen on these settings, 12-13 tiles I belive.
2 cows in radius, and silk, no bad terrain, lots of hills.
Big island, one of the biggest Ive seen also, which was probably one of the reasons for victory, including a wheat very close by, for my 2nd city.

My build order is like this :
Start max research on Masonry, but focus on finishing temple, then after temple, switch to settlers, and try to time settlers with masonry more or less, to get earliest pyramids.
Then settlers founds a city on closest spot with at least a 2-food square (its better to be close, than far with a food bonus I believe), and then this becomes a worker pump, until capital is maxed at 12 pop with max production.


So what actually happened :
3950 Babylon founded
3300 Temple finished
3000 Settlers finished
2900 Ninevh founded by wheat, Masonry makes a SGL
This is when I knew this game would be it.
2850 Pyramids -> Colossus

Next goal is Mysticism, to open another wonder, and after that rush to republic and litt.

2590, 2390 Ninevh builds worker

2270 Mysticism

2190, 1990 Ninevh builds worker

1910 Colossus -> Oracle

This is a great early wonder. Doesnt cost much and is also very useful speeds up research a lot.

1790 Ninevh builds worker
(hills are great in the medium term, but they sure require a lot of work)

1750 Alphabet

1650, 1525 Ninevh builds worker (when my workers are getting too much in advance to the population of Bab, I join one to the city)

1475 Writing

Now at this point, the Oracle is almost finished (see screenie) so I must take the decision to go for a philo->litterature rush, to open up some wonders.

1425 Babylon at size 12, 20 production, the workers have valiantly done their job, including joining up to Babylon

1375 Oracle
Now at this point, Philo and so litt. were due in 3 turns. I could complete the Library in 2, so I built a warrior in my spare turn, which allowed to lower luxurie, and would be useful to disband, to rush build Collosseum or Cathedral (every warrior makes a difference in these games :) )
1350 Warrior
1300 Discover Philosophy and Litterature, complete Library
Start Discovering Code of Laws, I wasn't sure at this point if I would build MoM or Great Library next.

1275 Ninevh builds a Settler (finally I will get a third city!!!)
1225 Ashur Founded (I will not comment my other cities from now on, I will just say I used a tight packing, as in these games it is hard for my cities to grow anyway, and to improve support in Republic)

1125 Code of Laws -> Republic (790)
Numbers in Paranthesis are the culture in Babylon at that moment

Now I had to choose between MoM or Great Library.
Both would trigger a Golden Age. This was my analysis :
Case 1 : Mom on turn 1, republic on turn 13 or so, Great Library on turn 17 or so (I had miscalculated the effects of GA it later turned out)
GA ends on turn 21 and then I start revolution

Case 2 : Great Library on turn 11 triggers GA, republic and revolution on turn 13 or so, Mom on turn 21 or so, Golden age until 31.

Case 1 had a bit better culture, but Case 2 gave much earlier revolution and better timed GA, so I opted for Case 2, although my calculations were a bit flawed anyway.

So in 800, Great Library triggers my Golden Age (1114)
I built a couple of curraghs, to try to meet the AIs.
In 750 I discover Republic and start the revolution, which lasts 2 turn, being religious
670 Polytheism
At this point, I still hadnt met the AIs, but from experience I knew they would have Warrior code, the wheel, HB, IW that I dont have, and maybe mathematics or map making.

To try at mimick the least possible, I decided to shoot for Monarchy, through Warrior Code.

470 Monarchy and Temple of Artemis (1576)

In 430 My second curragh (my first one sank in exploring the equatorial waters) finds both AIs
They seem to be fighting each other.
This is great news for right now, as they are very backwards and will remain so.
Although that spells trouble for the endgame, as this will allow the winning one (usually is one at this level, if they start on same island) to reach domination.
We get Pottery, IW, Wheel, HB, Map Making from Great Library and the Zulus have Mathematics.
They are both missing Philo, CoL, Litt, Polytheism, and are both building Great Lighthouse, their only available project.
We have horses already connected, but no iron on island.
They both have no ressources connected and few luxuries :)
Nobody seems to have ivory.

390 Mathematics, Golden Age ends, Mongols finish Great Lighthouse, Zulus cancel their project.

350 Mausolleum of M (1802)
This is a pretty good one, and also prevents the AIs from starting a wonder anytime soon (Monarchy is two techs away from them, and Construction is not top priority usually)

290 Construction
210 Currency
We enter Middle Ages, get Feudalism (was hoping for Monotheism)

As you can see, everything is going smoothly, Temple of Artemis has given us a nice territory, and our island still has some space to settle, while Im concentrating on claiming some little islands and
PRIORITY NUMBER ONE : FIND IRON
To build railroads in the industrial age. I cant accept that the zulu source is the only one (its not connected yet anyway)...


Note : from this one on, my screenshots are missing pieces, this is my first time taking screens so I am sorry :)

As can be seen from the Power Graph, the zulus are lagging, and it is clear to me at this point they will enventually lose.
They have colonized another island, so they will buy me time, but I must start thinking about preventing an eventual Mongol Domination.
Right now I have a lot of population so it is not a problem.
I also notice I have coastal connection to the AI island, so I do some luxury trading.
I also notice the Zulus have ivory now, must be on some island, or in deep for of war.
I try to locate it, as it might be worth an assault.

110 BC Hanging Garden (2345)
90 BC Colosseum (short rushed partially)
70 BC Monotheism
30 BC Cathedral (short rushed partially)
30 AD Ninevh completes Forbidden Palace
70 AD Theology

zulus start on SoZ and still havn't found their ivory. Even though it's in a small city, it's too late for an assault. At least it will help them against the mongols.

They are both still missing 5-6 techs from AA as they are busy fighting.

Mongols Start Great Wall, so I decided to try finish it before them

190 Education ends our great love story with ToA and GL but opens up the University.
As can be seen on screenie, I have 3 small islands colonized and built a city on the 2nd AI island, which was dumb. My main island is colonized and developping nicely, although very lightly defended. (no military units in fact)

Now some mongols ships approach my little islands and my city on their island.
Sounds like a sneak attack.
I start rushing a few barracks on my island using the mongol gold I bought for gpt (also called insurance) :)

210 Great Wall completed, killing the Mongol Project

Mongols sneak attack, destroy my city on their island, I must abandon 2 of my 3 islands when they land.

Hurry a couple of bowmen.

With city walls and roads, I should be able to defend, since they only have archers and spearmen.

They drop maybe 2-3 units total which do no damage.

260 University
(I wont comment each tech anymore, but I am rushing Free Artistry to get Shakespeare as soon as possible)

280 A suicide galley reaches an iron island, north of my main. YIPEE.

330 Peace with mongols for litterature (they are still very backwards, as are Zulus)

Mongols reach Middle Ages and start on Sun Tzu. (Sun Tzu not a priority for me, and there are so many Middle Ages I wonder, I must let them do it)
Zulus still in AA

450 Zulus finish SoZ

490 Shakespeare
This is a key wonder for 20 K games.
This is not a bad date at all for this level, although it was sorta wrongly timed, as I had to waste about 120 shields from Sistine, my prebuild, and I also forgot to build an army of worker right before, to improve the rest of the terrain and join Babylon.

510 Harbor
I think it was worth it to waste one turn on this, to get a lot more trade from being able to use my ocean squares.
I think this game is the first time I notice that Harbor doesnt help for lakes... I did some wrong calculations based on this assumption. I'm slow sometimes.

Mongols are starting on Leo, which I must also let them have.

550 Babylon is now at size 20, with 29 production (5399 culture)
This is my next plateau until the Industrial Age

My goal is now to rush the Industrial Age, specifically to get Rails, and a Factory and a Coal Plant.

I get Dyes, Engineering and Invention for Monotheism, Theology and 18 gpt from the Mongols
Mongols start on Sistine which I can't let happen (I was going to do Copernicus but switch to Sistine)

710 Mongols finish off the Zulus
Its down to you and me baby
I am hoping to prevent domination through population.
I still have lots of room for population increase just on my main island, but colonizing can't hurt.

720 Sistine (6756)
Mongols finish Leo, start on Knight Templar, trade some luxuries

Mongols now start Copernicus in Capital, which is size 12 sadly.
Newton was due in 4 turns which will I choose?
they also finish Knight Templar (4th wonder built by an AI)

840 Great Turn :
Metallurgy brings us to Industrial Age
We get a SGL!
WE start with Steam Power
We have Coal already connected
what can I ask for more?
Regarding the coal situation, I rush the harbor in the iron city and start building an army of worker (As with Shakespeare, I was very absent minded regarding this in this game, and forgot to build workers in advance) to rail Babylon and the rest of the island as soon as possible.
Now with the SGL, I decide to finish Newton, and rush Copernicus, even though its only 400 shields, to stop the Mongols (else I would have gone for Js Bach probably).

860 Newton's University (7974)
870 Copernicus's Observatory
930 Factory (partially rushed)
940 Coal Plant (same)
Babylon is now at 80 production

Ok now the situation is clearly in the bag culture wise.
Anyone who has played these games, know the start is the key.
There are almost no culture in the Industrial Age.
The only thing that could be a problem would be domination by the Mongols, as seen below.
Even though they are close population wise, thats my only way to stop them.
Plan :
I send a couple of ships with settlers settling the few spots left, and some workers to help on a few islands, also to prevent drops on the very small ones.
I make sure all cities have harbour, and granaries for those not on main island, and aqueducts.
I switch some mines to irrigation to help growth.

As a last minute emergency I could add workers to cities, in case it came that close :)
the plan did work because in fact they only went down in relative population from now, ending at 56 or something.

1030 Js Bach
1080 Magellan (10227) the halfway mark, although the game is 85 % done
1180 Universal Suffrage

Now here I made a mistake.
I decided to stop research altogether,except to reach The Corporation (Wall Street) and Scientific Method (Theory of Evolution).
Because there are no other culture buildings until the Modern Age.
One of the reasons was that for me to reach in Modern Age with any time left would be almost a max run, therefore very strained on budget, which would actually make it hard to impossible to build Wall Street (I didnt have 5 cities which could build a stock exchange in reasonable time without rushing)
and also in 1220 The mongols started the Last Great War, which was them using mostly Cavalries (they had access to saltpeter) while I was using mostly Infantries.
I was in no trouble except had to abandon a few of my anti-domination cities on some frozen islands up north, but I needed some cash.

I ended with my capital doing almost nothing important for a very long time, and in hindsight, I think I should have tried a rush on the Modern Age, specially since Bab had such high shield output, even if that meaned putting a strain on my ressources.

1255 Theory of Evolution (12389) (see I still had over 60 turns to go, more than enough to reach the MA with a nice cushion)
1295 Adam Smith (13409)
Note the big gap here :
1390 Wall Street (15898)
me and the mongols were exchanging small islands at this point, I didnt have cavalries so I couldnt take anything more, and I had infantries so he couldnt either :)

1415 Intelligence Agency (for lack of anything to do)
and in 1545, finally victory in about 6 hours (those games are short, which is why I like them)
4893 points
Babylon at 142 Culture per turn
Was so close to 1540, a couple of mistakes (worker, not going to MA) cost me 2-3 turns I would say.

I'm still very happy,

I have attached the start and final save if anyone is interested.
All in all I had great fun, it was close a couple of times, most things went well.
I could have gotten more lucky with the SGLs (first non-trivial one at end on middle ages...)
This brings my Earliest dates for 20 K games to :
Chieftain 1355
Warlord 1415
Regent 1455
Monarchy 1350
Emperor 1480
Demigod 1575
Deity 1545



The obvious next step is to try Sid.
(Btw this was my first win ever on Deity :) )
Then I will probably try to improve a couple of scores (Regent and Demigod Specially)
Then Im thinking of trying Small maps, see how much that changes the dynamic.

Comments are of course welcome.

The obvious next step is to try Sid.
Do you think a 20k on Sid is possible?

My oh my. I don't think I'll ever be able to compete on this level. I just can't do that many restarts on each level. Congratulations on your win, though. Very impressive.

Do you think a 20k on Sid is possible?If you beat up the AIs really early, and get lucky with SGLs...

Somebody achieved a 20k (and OCC) Sid win and posted it today at 'poly. Slightly modified rules (8 civs/Tiny map) which obviously had great effect on the game. Still impressive though.

EDIT: Oh, and sorry I don't have more time to comment or read the whole thread, but I would seriously consider the Sumerians for this. Being Agricultural will far outweigh the loss of a half price temple and cathedral (Only 110 shields overall, though the first thirty might be frustrating).

Religious is valuable for short anarchy more than the price of improvements. But if survival is the issue then you may be right.

2-turn anarchy is nice, but you're switching early enough and with a small enough empire to only get 5-6 turns anyway at around ~10spt for your 'main' city. Also the Sumerians have an excellent UU, and if you grab SoZ (which may be a necessity at Deity) you can stack tons of Enkidus with cats and a few ACs to finish off the job. Also, your Enkidu is two shields cheaper than the AIs spearmen.

That, however, is all with a 'pure game' such as LulThyme describes. I give at least a strong vote of confidence for Celts as well, with their offensive UU that can rip through early civs on a Tiny Pangaea. The Iroquois and Persians would also be worth considering along these lines.

Trying to answer somewhat in order.

I have never played Sid at all, and Im not even sure I had ever played Deity before trying these games :) so Im not familiar with the differences between both but I think a Sid 20 K win is definetly possible as Tomoyo said if you beat up the AIs, you will get a late date though, while I'm shooting for early date, which requires a different approach.

I know people always say it is not possible to wonder compete against the AIs at Deity level and Sid, but I think that is because they are actually shooting for something else (say when SirPleb or Moonsinger are doing score runs), and they are not willing to sacrifice their score or whatever to the wonders. Which makes sense for their purpose.
But if the wonder building IS your actual goal, then it is possible to beat the AIs, if you twist the whole game around this purpose.
For example, in this game, without even attacking the AIs, at deity level they only built more than 4 wonders (Lighthouse, Sun Tzu, SoZ, Crusader one), 2 of which I wouldnt or couldnt have built anyway (SoZ didnt have ivory, and the holy crusades always expires before I can build it) while I had only one city competing.

I just checked the other thread (on poly) and the finish date was 2116 AD, and using somewhat mods, although still impressive as punkbass said.


Now about the comments on strategy.
I am fairly confident that with all levels up to Deity (I wont comment on Sid before I try), the earliest date for 20K wins on conquest are achievable by NOT wasting time competing against the AIs.
For example in my game, they only built 2 crappy wonders that I could have used (Sun Tzu and lighthouse, which I would have built near the end) , they were always behind in tech, and I didnt build military until near the end of the middle ages.
So If you tweak the game a bit, you can go for a pure run and for this approach, agricultural is not useful.

And also its fun for once that we can play the Babylonians no? :)

True, but I think a direct expansion with at least two cities pumping workers into the 'main' city would be highly beneficial and far more feasible with an Agr. civ. Religious isn't that great on Deity for reasons I've outlined and you can probably get a four-turn anarchy often enough. I'll look into it, though. Certainly Colossus and SoZ you can probably build by hand with the right map, and you should still grab others. I'm curious about your 'no barb's' option, as it prevents huts which could be of great value to you. At Deity, if you can grab Myst. from a hut Poly. could produce a SGL, as well as Monarchy. Assuming Ivory as a preq for continuing, you'll have MAth. and be able to have good chances at begin first to both Const. and Curr. Good civ choice, it's handy that the Mongols and Zulus have the same traits. You could consider choosing Rome and Greece/India, though or go back to Hittites and pair them with Arabs or Russians. Even France and Egypt/Persia would be considerable, as Alph. and Masonry are the most expensive first tier techs and you would have a good chance to be first to Myst or IW, depending on whether you have a Rel. or Sci. civ against you. Seeing as you won't be likely to take a Com/Sea/Ind civ for yourself, you're probably not gonna be first to Math. or Writing anyway, so you may as well try to trade for it. Byzanines would be interesting civ to play too, with its coastal bonus and cheap harbour, plus starting with Alph. for Writing and Curraghs. Just some food for thought ;)

Spain. For a 'regular' Deity 20k game, superior choice.
With regular I mean standard map, 7 random AIs, no early SGL as must-have. Good start, given.

Why? Because it is pretty hard sometimes to get hold of CB if you're not REL, and that hurts more than the Anarchy period. While you will always able to trade for BW.
So, extremely early Temple+Colossus+MoM+GLib+Sistine are sufficient to win, but also those wonders are strong enough (compared to Oracle, ToA, HGs) to also ensure your survival...
The really interesting thing for those games is to not loose to a launch or an AI reaching Dom; requires some diplomacy skills. And, smart resource management - make sure no AI has Alu+Uranium, or Rubber+Oil.

Oh, and you forgot the Heroic Epic as another cheap 4cpt wonder.

Ah I see your point punkbass.
At first I thought you mean, play the game as usual, expanding and all, and then when you have achieved dominance, switch to 20K.
As I said I think this will give a later date.
What you are suggesting is a small tweak to improve performace.

I have thought about it and the thing is, in with my map settings (which I think is best for high difficulty), you get very crappy terrain, and often not even a good 2nd city spot, let alone a third one.
OF course you could always restart even more often...
And even if friendlier settings, the effects would have to be explored...

Now about barbs, I dont know if you remember our discussion about this on the other thread, but having huts greatly distrub even the chance of the Masonry SGL.
Remember it took me almost a 1000 start just to get him.
If you want the AI not to get Masonry thats maybe *1.5, if you want to get a tech from a hut, and another SGL straight away were talking what *20 at least?
You nearing the 50 K starts ranges...

I dont understand why you think I wont be first to Writing.
In my deity game, I was first to all Ancient Age techs, except Pottery, Warrior Code, Horseback Riding, The Wheel, Iron Working, Mathematics and Map Making
(Well I cant be sure of that, but almost certain)
Thats the whole point of using my crappy map settings.
On Deity, I actually dominated the AIs on research from the Start.
If you check, by the time they got out of Ancient Age (one of them actually never got out), I was halfway in the Middle Age.
So I dont need to shoot for just a couple quick techs for early SGLs, I actually rush republic, and then am counting on the number of techs to get me SGLs.
Now, as I said, I have never played SID, so I dont know how large the difference is, but I think with a LITTLE more luck, something similar could be achieved.


Now Doc, I will take your word for it, because I agree my games are far from regular Deity 20K games, so I dont know what would be best in that case.
Now, what do you mean I forgot Heroic Epic?
I did not built it in my game, because I never got a leader, because I didnt even have a military until near the end of Middle Ages, and fought under 10 battles total.
I would of course had built it if I could :)

I am starting to try some starts on SID, so depending on luck I will be posting back with some news within a couple of weeks :)

(Btw I'm a bit lazy, but could someone summarize the important differences between Deity and Sid?, Ill see if I can find them in the meantime)

What I could find : even more units (not that great a difference for me, hopefully).
One extra settler, so faster expansion, and earlier start on first wonder, probably biggest difference for me.
1-turn anarchy, not that big a difference from 2-turn I think
Cost from 6 to 4, that's basically a 50% production bonus (does this apply on food and commerce also?), huge difference, they might beat me to Oracle if Im not lucky.
Thats only a difference for the start I think though.

Although the crazy number of units is starting to make me think that maybe in fact it IS a good thing if both AIs are on the same island for this, although in the long-term its a small problem, it helps incredibly for the start.

Well, there is already a big difference between Sid and Deity.
the tech pace is awful at Sid.
While at Deity, I could time masonry almost exactly with my settler (right after my temple), now this is impossible, so I will have to rethink my opening moves, wheter I rush Colossus first or what not...

right now Im thinking Temple, Settler, Warrior, Warrior, Colossus, while doing a min run on Masonry.
I should be getting Masonry pretty close to Colossus, my 2nd city will have pumped a lot of workers, and I will have some gold accumulated...

all in all, its looking a lot harder than I thought :)

Congratulations on Diety, Good luck on Sid! I have yet to try either for any kind of game.

Now Doc, I will take your word for it, because I agree my games are far from regular Deity 20K games, so I dont know what would be best in that case.
Now, what do you mean I forgot Heroic Epic?

No, I recognized that; I meant in the discussion about best Civs/ Wonders for 20k Deity.

My usual technique is having trouble... so I tried using a different approach, something like punkbass suggested, but then I learned you can not get tech from a hut at Sid :) So thats not a solution either :)

LulThyme, saw your HoF records on 20K - quite impressive :goodjob:
I'd say in Sid, you'll have another problem - noone lets you near a wonder -
If they know a tech, then the wonder would have been planned yesterday, and built at around noon, if not earlier.. :crazyeye:

I do suggest trying an educated go-for-it for some ancient wonder, but even for this, it looks to me like the AIs should be on small.. tiny islands full of marsh :/

I'm as interested as you are in building Sid wonders, but haven't got there yet :P

Well, I do play on archipelago with 80%, with arid cold for an extra serving of tundra.
It sometimes work, sometimes even their capital cant go higher than 4 pop... :)
Although thats usually enough to beat my Capital lol.
Im starting to think maybe having a small island is not helping me on the short term, since they finish their expansion quicker, so that encourages them to start wonder -building.
Im a newbie at Sid so I dont know.
But suppose they had space for 7-8 cities on their island, would they wait a bit more to start on Colossus say than if they are maxed at 4 cities (might as well say maxed at start :) )

Ok.
I have been trying a few things on Sid 20 K.
Since my strategy is still changing a lot, I don't want to explain everything, but I have got a few questions maybe some ppl can help me with.

Right now, a big part of my strategy relies on the AIs having the latest possible date for the Colossus.
With my current settings, this is usually 2390-2190, and just a little improvement on that would help me a lot.
I am using arid, cold, 3 millions years, archi, 80% water.
And Mongols and Zulus.

I want to know what you think I could change to make them build the Colossus even 2-3 turns later on average.
For example do you think arid hot would be a worse short term environment?
Or maybe even wet (there are no rivers on 80% tiny archipelago, so this increases jungles and marsh I guess, reduces desert and tundra or whatever)
What about the fact that they start with Pottery.
Im not exactly sure how the bonuses work on Sid, but Ive noticed their cities grow very fast sometimes on the F11 scree, and I wasnt sure if they were joining workers or whatever, or had granaries, in which cases taking civs that dont start with Pottery might slow granary building by a few turns, and slow their wonder building in turn....


What do YOU think?

Stacking the AI deck is definitely one way to go. The most effective hammer you can have on the early AI tech pace would be to have all the AI start with the same techs so they can't trade. I'd personally aim towards the lower half of the tech tree, which would not only avoid Pottery but keep them a little further from Philosophy.

As far as traits go, if there's no rivers, Ag civ's probably wouldn't matter, as only river/lake cities get the extra food in the city square in Despotism. You probably want to avoid Seafaring civs though. That should (if only slightly) decrease the chances of an AI starting near a coast. It might mean a few more turns before they can start Colossus.

On a side note, there seems to be a lot of demand in the Mapfinder thread for Ivory to be added to the report in the next version. If it happens, it should make 20k maps quicker to find for those that use SoZ as part of their strategy.

for the ones of you being able to understand german...

read how dark_prophet managed a 20k-sid-occ: http://www.civforum.de/showthread.php?t=19858&page=1&pp=15

Well I dont understand german but ill see if I can follow along...
Nope not enough screenies.
On the other hand, my first try as a new civ, the bizantines will probably give me victory
Im in 1430 or something with about 10K culture, expect to win before 1900 I guess.
I was able to get Colossus, Great Library, MoM, SoZ, Great Wall, Sistine, Js Bach, Copernicus, Shakespeare up to now... iwth just one SGL near the middle of middle ages
and a crap starting location (17 shield until ind age...)
We are just starting Industrial Age, and the only 2 coals on are big AI islands, so Im pondering what to do at this point


SO its not as hard as I thought.
A few tries with the Bizantines could yield a 1850 win at least I think, with an early SGL and a good starting position (Ivory seems to be necessary for a good date).

Small summary of dark_prophet's game:
Carthage, small (!) 80% water 'pelago, OCC, random opponents.
The start: River, 2 grassland wines, 2 cows, 1 ivory just outside the borders, lots of BGs.
The crucial thing was that no AI started at the coast, so he could get the Colossus; then SoZ, Lighthouse (remember, no other coastal capital), MoM (first for Philo), HGs, GLib, Sisitine, Bach's. That was it for wonders.
Bought his neighbor (India) to protect him; worked well, except that India was in sight of winning by domination or Space...

If you go for Colossus first, you should be able to beat the AIs to it most of the time.
Well in my types of maps at least.

In my game, the Ais are China and Japan.
China is stronger, but will not reach domination as I have a pretty good hold on many islands.
This is my first real Sid game, so I dont know how it will go with regards to a Diplo or Space Victory, but if I stop or almost research in the IA, the game should end before it gets too much of a problem.

Im thinking of just shelfing this game, and start anew with a good start, now that I have a better idea what to do.
I lost the race to many wonders, having only an abysmall 17 shields in capital.
A good average for this type of map is more like 21-22 (after repu) which makes a huge difference.

Well, sorry for the lack of update, but I was busy playing Sid.
I finally submitted a game.
Final date 1796, which could be improved, but I still think its great and wont try Sid again for some time.
Sadly I took almost no notes during game, as I had to restart dozens of time (I mean I restarted litteraly thousands of time, but I had to play till end of AA start of middle ages at least 10-12 times) because sometimes an early good game turned into disaster (make that often :) )

Anyway I used the byzantines, and my first game ever with them went very well, just a notch under my final submission but I didnt have coal and decided to restart since it seemed easy with my new strategy.
It turned out that was luck since I was only able to get 4-5 starts as good as that first one out of maybe 800...

So what was my strategy?
Tiny archipelago against zulus and mongols, with warm, arid, most water, most mountaints, no barbs.
Start on Colossus right away, and even then sometimes I would get beat to it, but Id say 85-90% of the time I can get it first.
Min run on writing.
Then send 2-3 Curraghs to meet the AIs, trade for pottery, ceremonial burial at some time.
Build Settler, Temple, Granary and some warrior in capital in some order.
2nd city is worker factory of course.

(I explain this quick, but I had to do this part at least 30 times I would say, to get a hold of the situation, if I had ivory, how were the AIs doing etc... and it involved a lot of MM, which is why it took me weeks)

By that time usually its start to rush on philo which gets litterature for free, build library, MOM and Great Library. and then go for Code of Laws and Republic.

From there it depends.It turned out that being able to build Soz was almost a requirement for these games.

Anyway in my final game, the main thing that was different was that the AIS took the longest I have ever seen to get out of their islands, on which they had about 5 cities each, which slowed them a lot in every way possible.
I still dont understand why, as the map configuration was similar to many others, but thats what happened.
That allowed me to colonize a big island with 3 luxuries (I had just ivory on home island), which eventually turned out to contain the only other coal besides my main, but that didnt matter that much.

The main thing was that the AI wasnt that fast as researching, and I was ahead most of the time starting from the MA, which allowed me to complete my wonders without trouble.

So I was able to build : Colossus, SoZ, MoM, Great Library, Hanging Gardens
In the middle ages they got Sun Tzu, Leo, and Crusades, I got everything else after that (I got one great leader, which gave me JS Bach I think).

When I entered industrial ages, I was about 5 techs in front of them, even though they had about as many cities as I had...

I stopped researching in the middle of IA after Corporation and Rep Parts, because I didnt have time reach MA anyway.

Here are my scores up to now for the record :
Chieftain 1355
Warlord 1415
Regent 1340
Monarchy 1350
Emperor 1480
Demigod 1575
Deity 1545
Sid 1796

I think I will try improve a few more of my other scores( thinking mainly of warlord and demigod), then its on to small maps :)

Anyway heres the save 4000 and 1796, Ill of course answer any questions...

Very impressive :goodjob: You have boogaboo's tenacity :D

Ill take that as a great compliment :)
specially since I dont use Mapfinder anymore :)
Yes I have lots of time on my hand...
The thing is, since I had to actually play a lot of these games, instead of just restarting before even founding a city, in a way it was less boring (although way longer). And it got me so used to the process, that I got very good at knowing where the AIs would be in techs at certain dates, and which way they researched and all, which helped for the final game.

I just checked the submissions database. First 20k on Sid confirmed.

Congratulations, LulThyme! :band:

Congratulations LulThyme, you have become the 20KKKKing! :goodjob:

OMG... I mean 20K on Sid?!
OMG :eek:

Congrats amigo, you deserve a rest (and some prizes...) :goodjob:

Raised from the dead! Good thread Lul, I've been trying Sid and I can't tell you how annoying it is missing Colossus by 1-3 turns on an otherwise nice start.

I've been messing around with industrious thinking it may help speed up early builds, but in fact I don't need help with builds at all, I either get them or not, and then i have nothing to build! My last game I got Colossus no problem but I'm just cranking out warriors now...

I tried Ottomans because their UU is so nice it may allow me to get some leaders and rush some small wonders. Alas, being able to start on writing seems to be the way to go.

I know this isn't HoF, but it is 20k Sid:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=112402

Meteor Punch, I did get a 1796 Sid 20 K win on Hof later, but I had to restart so many times and wait so long into the game that I didnt really have notes so did not do a full thread.
Sometimes, a game that looks good at end of middle ages crashes, as the AI suddenly wakes up, kicks you ass in tech and wonder building.

Anyway Smirk, I would like to help you a get some ideas, as I might try and beat my record sometimes in the next few months.
What settings are you using (map settings, AIs, start strategy etc.)

For Sid, I used Archipelago, least land arid and warm, most mountains.
The goal is to get worst terrain possible to stop the AI (worked pretty good actually)
If youre lucky they wont even be able to irrigate their starting island (no fresh water) and will be stuck at size 6.

Then I used mongols and zulus as AIS

And then my biggest change was using byzantines.
I would build colossus, then a few curraghs to go meet the AIs.
Then my settler, some warriors etc.
By that time the curraghs have met the AIs. I can build a temple, granary if needed etc usually can prebuild the oracle
all the while im research writing, philo etc...
I think forsaking a few early wonders (pyramids and oracle) is good if it allows you to dominate the AIs.

The main thing to remember is, whatever plan you have, you will need LUCK :) (and therefore patience)

BTW meteorpunch, i read thread, and its also always war and occ so very impressive!!

I started with similar settings, 3B, arid and cold, tried some with warm. I was using Zulus and Mongols also. I also (after reading this) tried avoiding pottery using Japan and Egypt (China also worked like was mentioned here), not enough games yet to tell what effect it has. Actually I haven't gotten much past 1000BC in any game yet.

Initially I went the route of researching mysticism, and a couple games I was able to build colossus and then oracle, one game I built colossus started on oracle got beat to that then switched to and built pyramids. All of those were without ivory so I had to ditch them once a civ built the statue, it could be that the statue is a higher priority and the reason I was able to build oracle or pyramids was because on a civ was building the statue.

The biggest unknown for me is early contact and potentially trading. In only few of the maps was I able to get contact and in none of them was I able to trade for, or with anything. I've yet to use your technique of minimum on writing, but will be trying that once MapFinder gets me some maps. Were you able to trade anything with writing or your amassed gold?

YES!!
Usually once i met the AIs I would almost be tech leader If i wanted (not that I did, i only traded for CB sometimes pottery, since the goal is to slow tech pace, and youre going to build Great Library).
Btw having ivory is a MUST for Sid level.
I just cant imagine even winning without SoZ.
The writing rush is important to get a quick republic I find to boost research capability, production, get Litterature etc and will easily compensate for loss of one of the very early great wonder in my experience, though if you could do both in a very lucky game, that would be great.

Ok, I'll just report my game in this thread since I didn't really take notes and the bulk of my game consisted of me bombarding with dromons and then later frigates...ugg

After reading thru the log of that one city culture attempt I had some ideas how I was going to proceed, so instead of starting with colossus I started with a curragh, then colossus.
This was to be an always war game, with the hopes that this plays some tricks on the AI and kept them down, so to speak. I got contacts pretty early, and being basically without anything of worth did no trading, this worked well since the tech rate was really slow. I reached MA first and generally kept ahead of the Zulus, whereas the Mongols were hopelessly behind.
I started researching burial since I figured without any trading I would have a long time without anything to build, and when I completed burial and got a science leader I thought long on what I was going to do next so that this game *was* the game to top the HOF. I changed many of my plans at this point and for better or worse I decided to research Mysticism and attempt building the oracle. At this point the other civs were doing other things and seemed to be ignoring burial so I figured I would have a chance. Also my start was so fantastic that I was easily ahead of the AI if were were to start on a wonder together. It also helped that I had dromons out and about harrassing their development.

My start and my island were great I had 4 luxuries on my island, 3 within easy reach, the furthest being ivory. I had 3 grassland cows, 1 mountain, 3-4 hills and a lake for fresh water. Only 3 coastal tiles and one tundra. I had >25 shields as a city, and 35 once I got max pop. I didn't have horses or iron, and neither other civ had both, Zulus had horses and Mongols had iron. I was able to get both on small islands and using harbors. I had saltpeter on one of those islands once that appeared but I didn't have coal and never got it, never needed it. And therein was the biggest flaw in my game, the tech pace was soooo slow, I did no useful tech trading. I did trade some useless stuff (free artistry, etc) after I built the wonders for gold, I did this when the Zulus build the workshop so he wouldn't go upgrade crazy and try to attack me.


I got the same results as the person saw in that one city culture always war game, the civs never left their island, and never really tried. The zulus made lots of attempts but while I sank most of his ships before they could do anything, some reached land and he only ever had fighting units in them. And this wasn't even until middle MA, I saw and killed maybe 3-5 galleys from each civ, once Zulus got caravels I saw a lot more of these.

Another failure, or poor planning on my part is that I wasn't able to get an army and an army win. I did get about 20 elites, and did get a leader in between my turn which died shortly thereafter. I've got little experience dealing with a landing *so* hostile. Not to mention I'm convinced the AI has an attack bonus versus the human (or the combatcalc isn't right anymore). Every landing attempt I typically lost a unit on the second or third battle regardless of my good odds, knights, pikemen and muskets on hills versus impi, bowmen and horsemen. On the other hand I dropped 4 muskets on Mongols mountain with iron and he attacked me twice and then left me alone the rest of the game.



At any rate the tech pace was slow, lots of times I had no culture to build so while I had a good shield start it wasn't really essential. I though I would do much better but while I beat the top time it wasn't by much. I won in 1752 with about 4k points. Took ~30 hours, some of thats from running when I get drawn away to do other stuff, but with all the bombarding I expect a lot of the time was that.

Congratulations on a great game Smirk, seems Ill have to go back to Sid, too!
(note that I was planning on revisiting that eventually.)
Two comments :
To get an army, it might be a good idea to let them establish a foothold somewhere else, once youre strong enough to contain it. That's easier than mounting an attack on home island.
Also, since in this type of games you have to research from the start, and the map is horrible, it seems research speed will be important maybe even more then shield production. Would it be possible to get the details on map setting, and dates for wonder built? Maybe even a final screenshot or something? To get some ideas...

I think these dates are beatable.
When I did my game, I didnt have mapfinder, and I dont think I got a Leader even though I beat them to all the techs, except a couple start ones.

Always war or something like that sounds good.
I have some ideas concerning this, I'll report how it goes after.
One final question.
In your game, how many times (if any) and when, did the AIs have techs you didnt have, and did you trade, or research to slow down the tech pace?

Btw (this just flashed me).
For this type of game, wouldnt another trait then militaristic be better ?
They get cheaper barracks, more promotion, cheaper harbors (which are pretty important) I dont know.
Maybe religious or indistrious?
Any thoughts?

Also another LAST question, did you specifically wait for a SGL, or was that extra goody?

Thats a good point about militaristic, although if you keep them contained it doesn't really matter. I forgot to mention I *love* Byzantine, their UU is perfect for this map type and game, just gotta be careful early on so you don't start GA early. (Although I forgot to mention it, but I got GA in despotism, wasn't payin attention to my wonders and got it with the library.)

My settings were unchanged: arid, cold and 3 billion. I don't think I would change anything there. Other civs were seperate and thats required I think, I was playing and they spawn together often, but the tech rate is lightning and they don't war early or enough for it to help me. In fact I figure late game I would see armys instead of tons of weak units.

About the leader, I was stunned, I sat there staring at the screen for a few minutes with no doubt an unbelieving mindless grin. I wouldn't play to that, and in hindsight because of the slow research and my ideas of keeping it slower, it actually didn't help me much, although the pyramids was nice (As an aside I hand built curragh, colossus then oracle, followed by a rushed pyramid.) I could have used it before building the oracle, but I figured if I did that then I might miss out. That is, maybe one of the civs values pyramids more and will start with that, I can get oracle before they finish that, then steal pyramids with the leader. It did seem to work just about how I figured.



I never traded any of my current research to the AI, I did trade for Chivalry (Zulus had horses but no iron.) but that actually was a waste as I never managed anything with knights. I think I gave them Theology or something. Also as I mentioned I took his gold when he built the workshop. The mongols were far behind so I didn't even keep track of them after we got MA.



Oh yeah I forgot, it was so long ago, I did keep a timeline to 10AD as I usually do.

Sid
palace -3950
temple -2110
library -490

pyramids -1350 leader
colossus -2430
oracle -1375
great library -150
lighthouse -570
mausoleum *
10 AD 39 cpt


Zulus built the mausoleum. Some of my times were slower than in your game, notably library and great library are slower, also you got the mausoleum. The only difference is I got pyramids, oracle and lighthouse in the same time frame. I think lighthouse is higher priority on these maps, now it doesn't do much for me, except maybe depending on map allow you to get resources from islands faster, but keeping it away from the AI is much more important.

My thoughts for future games is that you want a slow tech during AA and beginning MA but after that let loose a little, I think it hurt me a little being so slow. I think letting the pace go a little faster and keeping the high shield start will work better, less waste in the capital and faster access to other wonders. I actually didn't waste much time in my capital, but I did build wonders I would normally ignore. Also forget about Monarchy, I mistakenly thought I would need this, but I think with two militaristic civs, get them to declare war on you then ride the reverse war weariness, for lots of happiness and great commerce as well.

More on the techs, I was behind in the start of AA, I had to learn masonry, warrior code, Poly and math myself for the wonders. But I got the great library and learned everything else (republic and construction among others), I entered MA first researching currency.

Oh yeah, I got monotheism as my MA free tech and medicine in IA.

great game and sound strategy, LulThyme! I enjoy reading your write-up. have you tried 20k with PTW?

No...
I havnt played PTW in a very long while, and really don't feel like relearning the differences.