Current Great Leaders have some interesting uses, but Armies are the least of them. I would prefer Great Leaders gave you unique oppurtunities rather than ones that require you time it better than the other players.

Here are a couple assumptions for my system:
The Great Leader spawning system would be adjusted as needed.
Play-balance would be adjusted as needed.


SGL:

Instead of giving you bonus research, you could use a SGL to inspire a new tech that is 'avant-garde'. It would give you an application of technology that can exist but never did in history. A good example would be that practical Steam Engines could have existed in the Hellenistic Era, but no one ever invested in them(for tons of reasons, lets not have that discussion). Each era would have several avant-garde techs which would give you limited versions of techs from later eras. Also, when you get to that era you would get the tech for free when you get the pre-reqs. Here are some examples of avant-garde techs:

Early Steam Engine(off Engineering) - Allows seeing coal, all naval units have steam versions, can build ERR, which is 2x effciiency road with RR tile bonus(if that is kept)
Early Sewer System(off Construction) - Allows Sewers, which raise cap from 12 to 18. Hospitla required to reach past 18.
Early Computers(off Replaceable Parts) - Not sure yet, but it would be worth it.


MGL:

Instead of giving an army, it should allow you to research a tech that gives you one or two special units. These techs would branch from techs that give the base normal unit.

Heavy Cavalry(off Iron Working and Horseback Riding) - Requires Iron, Horses 3/2/2

I support this idea, because it brings variety into the game. More leaders who can do different things, who give you something special. There's no need to work this idea out further, because everybody should get the basics from here and we do not know civ4 further to add something constructive. So it'd be a waste of time.

The only problem I see with this idea and needs to be answered now is: How do these leader spawn? If they are that powerful (as they seem for me) the RNG (as it is handled now) doesn't seem to be a good solution. But I don't have a better one, sorry :).

mfG mitsho

This is a really neat idea. If there were a couple tech-branch-offs (5 per age, for arguments' sake), using a great leader could be a truly unique opportunity.

The only problem I see with this idea and needs to be answered now is: How do these leader spawn? If they are that powerful (as they seem for me) the RNG (as it is handled now) doesn't seem to be a good solution. But I don't have a better one, sorry .

That is a good question, and one I have never thought of a good solution for.

I think teh avant garde techs is a great idea. I had toyed with the idea of having Leonardo's Workshop (and later, Velikovsky's Lab and Tesla's Theorem) being great wonders that release a short tech tree that leads to some interesting non-historical units or improvements. But this would work just as well for that purpose.

Actually combining that with Wonder related small tech trees owuld be interesting too. Sun Tzus would allow you to research 'military' techs with appropriate techs.

Very interesting idea, but as mitsho points out, this could make a civ a runaway powerhouse, if they get many sci GL in an era, thru RNG luck. After a bit of thought, I came up with the following ideas:

1. Have 4 avante garde techs that can be researched per era. A Scientific GL can only be allowed to research TWO of these techs, after that, it can be used to either rush a wonder, or complete research on a tech in 1 turn. (Unless they fixed the science age bug, then allow that also.) Once you advance to the next era, none of the avante garde techs from the previous era may be researched.

2. Rather than allowing techs to produce new, more powerful units, base all advantage gained through improvements. Once a leader spawns, the techs that can be researched appear as research options off of ALREADY researched techs that allow the avante garde techs. You must choose the tech and then use the leader to research it in one turn. Now, you have the ability to construct the special improvements.

3. Place a time limit on how long these new improvements may be constructed, say you must start them within 10 turns of researching the special tech. This models the idea that in real life, when a great thinker dies, often his ideas tend to fade into obscurity and his school of acolytes take up other pursuits. In-game, this forces the player to make choices, he may need to put off constructing a better military or make peace during war to pursue these new ideas.

4. Rather than a civ wide availability of these new improvements, the ability to construct them would be limited to say 4-6 cities, centered on the core of the empire. When you researched the special tech, the advisor might say in the popup box: "Sire, our citizens in Rome, Antium, Lutetia, Agrippina and Londinium have been inspired by our great leader Maximus to undertake construction of new projects that will revolutionize our empire! Our builders await your command!" Going into these cities, you will find the new option to build the special improvements - but ONLY in these cities, nowhere else.

Example of techs/buildings in ancient era:

TECH Ancient Cavalry Warfare. (Branches from Horseback Riding) Allows construction of Cavalry Stables, which allows building Ancient Cavalry unit. (Ancient Cavalry should be set to go obsolete once Chivalry is discovered by any civ.)

TECH Hellenic Philosophy. (Branches from Philosophy)Allows construction of Academy, which boosts city science by 50%.

TECH Roman Architecture. (Branches from Construction) Allows Early Sewer to be built, which allows city growth up to size 16 (18 is a bit much, IMO). Hospital replaces this when built.

TECH Imperial Currency. (Branches from Currency) Allows construction of City Bazaar, increases tax revenue by 50%.

I'm sure the names of this stuff could be improved upon, but you get the general idea. The player gets a real, lasting benefit from the GL, based on a player made choice, that can be made according to perceived needs of the empire. Other effects could be given based on game balance and design, Also, all these buildings could be made to go obsolete once a tech in a later era is researched, this allows a nice benefit in the ancient era, without allowing the advantage to snowball later in the game.

Well, I always thought it would be cool if Leonardo's Workshop could, aside from its cheaper upgrades, also give you a single 'advanced prototype' land unit from the middle-ages tech tree. It would be different each time, but could give you a nice little jump on your opponents. Of couse, if you lose it, then thats it until you get the tech required!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

Wow, cool idea Ivan. Also, Aussie, I'd like to see Leo give either an early flying unit or an ealry tank (early, beacuse not as powerful, less movement etc). You only get the one, just like in your idea, but it would scare the crud out of the opponent :)

Hmm, that gives me an idea. Somebody (aaglo?) made a Da Vinci tank, looks pretty cool, maybe it would be fun to have this pop out of Leo's every 5 turns, give it move 1, attack 6, defense 6, have another wonder that reduces upgrade costs. What do ppl think about having a few wonders that reduce upgrade costs, but that expire throughout the ages? I know this is a bit OT, but it seems like an interesting idea.

Current Great Leaders have some interesting uses, but Armies are the least of them. I would prefer Great Leaders gave you unique oppurtunities <snip>

Giving a Great Leader the ability to 'force peace' between warring civs for X number of turns, would certainly put a twist on domination games.

Wow, I didn't even think about the possibliity of unique diplomatic situations. Imagine the possbilities...

Wow, I didn't even think about the possibliity of unique diplomatic situations. Imagine the possbilities...You could have Htiler-esque public speakers who could motivate your people to support wars, resulting in no war weariness for the first say, 10-20 turns of was in a Rep. or Demo! And revolutionaries that could incite forign cities to culture-flip by promising them the perfect future society!(Assuming you can get them there ;)) And, of course, the great artists/actors/celebreties that act as a luxury good for a # of turns (After which their work would have gone "Out of style," or the artists themselves would be dead)

Hmm, those are neat ideas also. You could have a leader able to force peace between your nation and another civ at war with you as well for 20 turns, this would be a powerful ability. Another use for a leader might be to give it the capability to plant a spy in every civ for free, no chance of failure, this would be a nice capability as well.

As far as the enertainment/luxury leader goes, kind of hard to conjure up a free luxury, maybe make it spawn a free entertainment building for 20 turns in every city, say you get a great leader and use the "increase happiness" option, this would give you a Theatre or Opera House in every city for 20 turns, makes 2 unhappy citizens content. After 20 turns, the buildings disappear.

This all would be more strategic and varied than current civ. I like it.

So, at this point we're looking at:
SGL(Scientific)-Sciencey things
MGL(Military)-Armies & Whatnot
DGL(Diplomatic)-For Peace/War
CGL(Civil)-For Culture/happiness

Some nice ideas here :) I don't think I can actually add anything except for that.

I oppose giving DGL the ability to make peace, etc. because to my opinion it won't function in multiplayer mode. And guess how many players (even in solo) want to be dictated when and when not they are allowed to declare war.
The following GL are possible (in my opinion; possible doesn't mean necessary or good):
SGL - scientific (scientific age; special tech)
MGL - military(Army; speeding up small wonder or building)
RGL - religous (no idea because we know nothing about this new feature)
NGL - naval (Fleet?; speeding up small wonder or building)
----
[PGL - political (do a spionage action without paying, more a small leader)]
[CGL - cultural (this one would make no sense because everything cultural is included in Scientific and Religious. It'd only make sense if the tech tree is splitted up into two branches (one social...) or something regarding the new civics thing.)]

But still the last two are a bit too much for my sense. We would have enough leaders with the first 4 types.... (Have fun with the aztecs or Zulu! :))!

mfG mitsho

I oppose giving DGL the ability to make peace, etc. because to my opinion it won't function in multiplayer mode. And guess how many players (even in solo) want to be dictated when and when not they are allowed to declare war.

When you are attacked, aren't you dictated to declare war? Having a GL 'Force Peace' is the same, but opposite, no?

I do not have Conquests, so I am not familiar with the different types of GL. I would think that if a GL can build an army, it could also Force Peace. Those two options should be tied together.

We'd have a "diplomatic GL" with the ability to A) Use his/her outstanding negotiating skills to fource peace for X turns, or B) Use their abilities to motivate people (Of your Civ or others) to support war, removing WW for X turns in a Rep. Gov.
At least that's now I see it.

CGL could also make all citizens happy in a city for x number of turns. This would be great for your metros and super-metros.

Hmm, I wonder if all these leader types were implemented, if it might not make sense to have more than one condition for them to spawn under, having a Diplomatic GL or Cultural GL spawn when you are first to research a tech doesn't make too much sense. Maybe have a chance for these leaders to spawn in a city producing a lot of culture per turn (making building the culture producing wonders in a certain city make more sense), or when a city is very happy, which increases player impetus to make trades for more luxuries, at the expense of selling techs to other civs. Also, have a better chance when a great event occurs, like finishing a wonder, or completely conquering another civ.

Mitsho, I would allow the "force peace" option for single player games, you could just disallow it for multiplayer games.

@Ivan the Kulak, that would be one solution, but is it good to have many different 'versions' of the game? but ok, this is neglectable.

@the other one (sorry, it's on a new site and I didn't read your name, so I would have to go back deleting the first half of this post): Yeah, of course, War is dictated to the people. but that's how it has always been and is in Real Life. Or can you tell me one example in history where this happened (Pope Leo something stopping the Huns from plundering Rome doesn't count because it's just a myth... :)).

@the others Can you please give me a list of these different great leaders for the Aztecs? Or if you can't then please for the U.S.A? (that should be difficult enough).
It's not a question of 'how cool would it look to have xy in the game'. It's a question of playability, effect on gameplay and historical realism (Do you invent some people for the less known civs?). And I myself certainly doubt that we'll find enough people for all these gl, and that's why I just want 4 different types (as I suggested: military GL, naval GL, scientific GL, and another peacefull one (political)).

mfG mitsho

(Pope Leo something stopping the Huns from plundering Rome doesn't count because it's just a myth... :))Why whatever do you mean? The Pope was a reasonable man, who simply made Atilla an offer he couldn't refuse... :mischief:

[QUOTE=mitsho@I didn't read your name, Yeah, of course, War is dictated to the people. but that's how it has always been and is in Real Life. Or can you tell me one example in history where this happened (Pope Leo something stopping the Huns from plundering Rome doesn't count because it's just a myth... :)).
[/QUOTE]

I do not have time to research your point to come up with counter examples. In part because I agree with you on your point of realism; it may not happen often. But this is a game, and I think the option to 'force peace', in essence a temporary truce, would be an interesting twist. I guess we will agree to disagree... :p

Well, you could force peace via the UN in civ2, haven't heard anyone complaining about that. I think it would be an interesting addition to the game, keep in mind you wouldn't be able to do it that often. If they redo the UN, you may have more of an option to make peace with enemies through international negotiation anyway.

@llib rm (sorry for the name thing ;)) Ok, I agree to disagree.. :)

mfG mitsho

Following ideas for Great Leaders


5 Ideas

All one shot opporunities

Great Explorers (You get a one shot exploration unit that can go
Great Builder (add three improvements to a city)
Great General (add a stack of units in a city)
Great Reformer (shift government without anarchy)
Great Diplomat (may make three agreements favorable to your civ)

That is a bit too great, as in Alexander. I like the thoughts though.

@Ivan

Everyone complained about forced peace in Civ2, but that is because the player could not control it. Here it would be a good use of a GL, force peace for a long time.

I agree. Forced peace through a great leader empowers a player, rather than empowering an automated gameplay abstraction.

Just when I thought all the good ideas have been exhausted! Great idea Sir Schwick!

At first I tried to justify each item with an historic context for each item like Damascus Steel, Big Bertha, V2 rockets, etc. Finally I decided just to run the ideas up the proverbial flagpole.

Great Scientific Leader

*Create any strategic resource (except maybe horses) in one city for the rest of the game, or in all cities for 10 turns.

*Early discovery of nitrate fertilizer. New worker ability to rework irrigated tiles to produce an extra food. (expires at RR of course).

*New worker ability to rework mined tiles to produce an extra shield. (also expires at RR).

Great Military Leader or Great Scientific Leader

*Damascus Steel. All Swordsmen, Med. Infantry, Knights, Berserk, etc., gain +1 damage.

*V2 Rockets. Early short range rockets.

*Silent sub (Like Tom Clancy’s “Caterpillar drive”) . Undectable except the turn fired and except by aegis ships.

*Long range artillery (Like the German’s Big Bertha, or the launcher Iraq was supposedly making). This new military unit, with a range of 3 tiles, may only fire from a city and may only be transported on rail.

*All units from a specified city are elite.

*A "unique" ability may be assigned to one type of unit (ex. All Kights may move through mountains as flat terrain).

Great Business Leader

*Influence bring 25% interest on the treasury for 20 turns.

Great Business Leader or Great Scientific Leader

*Create a new luxury item (Chocolate, Cosmetics, Pharmaceuticals, etc.). The formula is secret so no others may produce it, unless they use their own GL. If a second GL is used to create a new luxury item, the played may select the same luxury (for export) or a new one.

Great Political Leader

*GL turns into a special settler that can settle any terrain (example, on a mountain like Machu Pichu) or on any water tile that is adjacent to land (Like Venice, or the original Mexico City)

Great Political Leader

*GL can force peace between any two civs for 10 turns.

*GL can improve relations with all civs by one level, or one civ by three levels.

Great Scientific Leader

*Can build a one tile bridge between two land masses.

Great Business Leader

*Double shield production in one city for 10 turns.

Great Political Leader

Can prevent one Civ from entering your territory for 10 turns.

Can raise civil unrest in an enemy province by one level for 15 turns.

Maybe GL of some kind should be required to change government types. Of course GL would have to appear more then.

This seems a little like overkill to me. Soon we'll be along the lines of 'Let's have a GL which gives you free irrigations!'.

history through a prospective of important leaders

Using leaders for purposes beyond those currently in Civ3 is certainly an excellent idea. However, there must be a way to ensure that these leaders are spawned in a way that would not unbalance gameplay. This issue was briefly discussed at the beginning of this thread, but it appears that the RNG is still the prime determinant for these leaders, and in much the same way Civ3 currently has leaders spawn (through combat or research). Perhaps other activities should also be able to generate leaders, since they are taking on very diverse roles in this thread.

Good point, now this thread will have two main goals.

1) Discuss possible uses of GL.
2) Discuss how GL are generated(more important at this point)

On my part, I'd be happy to have MGLs (Armies/Small Wonder), SGLs (Wonder/Free Techs?), PGL (increases rep?) and CGL (gives free cultural improvements?). I say this because these are the 4 ways to win at Civ - military, space race, diplomatic, and culture. The rest is too much.

Well, let's see. MGL and SGL could generate as they do now, MGL could build army (depending on how combat works in civ4, this may have to be adjusted) or rush small wonder, SGL could rush research on 1 tech, or give science age, or allow access to custom techs, as discussed above.

Political great leader: maybe have it arise when you have gone out of your way to have an exceedingly good rep with all other civs, and you must have trade agreements with at least half the civs on the map in order for the chance of generating a PGL to kick in. This would reward those builder/diplo style players who prefer peace and trading influence with other civs to warmongering. PGL could: Force peace with a civ at war with you, or peace between 2 warring civs, with the result that you gain max rep with these 2 civs, and thus gain valuable trade concessions. Also establish spies in 2 other civs for free and at no risk, if you have espionage tech, or conduct 5 espionage missions at no cost (but still with risk of international incident).

As far as a cultural or economic GL goes, I can't think of a good condition that would allow these to arise. Maybe base it on happiness or trade/wealth superiority vs other civs.

Another thing I thought of, maybe allow all these types of leaders to rush wonders, but ONLY the types of wonders that apply to their abilities. MGL could rush Sun Tzu's, and Military Academy, and Manhattan Project, but NOT Forbidden Palace, Intelligence Agency, etc. SGL could rush Internet, Leonardo's, Apollo, etc., but not stuff like Hoover Dam, Sistine Chapel and so on. Political GL could rush Intelligence Agency, UN, Palace, Universal Suffrage. Maybe give the Cultural GL ability to rush all types of wonders, and no other abilities, this would give it a bit more punch.

Another thing I thought of, maybe allow all these types of leaders to rush wonders, but ONLY the types of wonders that apply to their abilities. MGL could rush Sun Tzu's, and Military Academy, and Manhattan Project, but NOT Forbidden Palace, Intelligence Agency, etc. SGL could rush Internet, Leonardo's, Apollo, etc., but not stuff like Hoover Dam, Sistine Chapel and so on. Political GL could rush Intelligence Agency, UN, Palace, Universal Suffrage. Maybe give the Cultural GL ability to rush all types of wonders, and no other abilities, this would give it a bit more punch.You could add that Civs are more likley to earn GLs that match their traits (Either directly with increased odds, in indirectly because they can more easily meet the conditions required)

Another thing I thought of, maybe allow all these types of leaders to rush wonders, but ONLY the types of wonders that apply to their abilities. MGL could rush Sun Tzu's, and Military Academy, and Manhattan Project, but NOT Forbidden Palace, Intelligence Agency, etc. SGL could rush Internet, Leonardo's, Apollo, etc., but not stuff like Hoover Dam, Sistine Chapel and so on. Political GL could rush Intelligence Agency, UN, Palace, Universal Suffrage. Maybe give the Cultural GL ability to rush all types of wonders, and no other abilities, this would give it a bit more punch.

Good idea!

As it is, SGLs favor tech races, presumably for a Space Race victory though maybe cultural/diplo as well. MGLs favor the aggressive civs, those seeking domination or complete conquest.

Perhaps if we looked at leaders as advancing what is necessary for different victory conditions... as if, say, for a cultural win, there were already indicated cultural leaders. Perhaps you "join city" with one to increase culture output by some number for X turns. A high-culture civ trying for culture flips could get a leader that corresponds to this play style.

Builder players are sort of SOL WRT leaders, but this needn't be the case. Founding (not capturing) and improving cities over the OCN (for example) would make the chance of a great architect which, if it joined a city, would serve as an additional palace/FP/etc (0 culture). I love the current corruption system, but think that the ability to make more FP's by building them doesn't make sense, yet neither do I feel that large empires should be intrinsically corrupt. A Great Architect (or whatever) would balance this out a little bit.

I like to think of leaders as those who revolutionize a field or a way of looking at things. For example, if you upgrade units a lot, perhaps you spawn a Great Inventor, someone who can rework an existing unit type to alter stats (of the player's choosing, say +2 attack, +1 defense, or +1 move to all of these unit types).

Micromanage your tax bar slider a lot? Perhaps you will spawn an Economic Great Leader that allows you to tweak the slider more efficiently (say, first by 5%s, then 1%s if you get another, or something).

There are so many things to do in civ, but simply adding new buildings or units might make things unbalanced. Players shouldn't be punished for being one bit behind a tech-savvy AI and wanting a peaceful game, but generally speaking they are. quasi-UU and Ubuildings would be an interesting addition, I agree, but I think the leader role needs to be redefined to suit the activities performed in a game of civ. Let the game match the players' style, not forcing the players' style to match the game. MHO

Thinking on the Cultural and Economic GL spawn... Maybe once you discover a tech enabling a cultural improvement to be built, like Temples and Cathedrals, and build a certain number of these, say 10 or 15, you have a chance for a Cultural GL to spawn for a certain number of turns, in this way there would be a few chances for these to spawn through the different eras. Also, building a cultural wonder, like Shakespeares or the Sistine Chapel would give a chance for this also. Same for Economic GL, when you build a certain numner of banks or stock exchanges, or Smith's or Wall Street, you get the same kind of chance for a leader spawn.

One use for Cultural GL might be to increase culture, this would have the effect of all cities with a cultural 10 tile radius expanding out to the standard 2 tile cit radius, this could be quite useful. Economic GL could give an Economic Golden age for 20 turns, you gain the gold bonus that you would gain in a regular GA, but not the science or shield boost.

One use for Cultural GL might be to increase culture, this would have the effect of all cities with a cultural 10 tile radius expanding out to the standard 2 tile cit radius, this could be quite useful.Instead of rushing production, a CGL could rush the culture to the next level. That would be pretty interesting if going for a flip.

... and pretty unbalancing, because levels are 10, then 100, then 1000, and so on, so we could go from 1000 to 10 000 in one turn? Guaranteed cultural victory (nearly).

mfG mitsho

how bout this? if you raised a leader like Gandi, you could use him to boost religious actions in your civ. or with the leader, Alexnader the Great, you could boost the attack of all of your units.

Yeah, I like the idea of military leaders either making your current units better or allowing some kind of free mass upgrade. This is historical also because that was usually how a great general was so successful - by reforming his army.