Why did Benjamin franklyn choose the unfinished piramid as a symbol that is now on the one dollar bill and not some other unfinished great monument or building?

One thing I read is that many of the founding fathers were not Christians per se, but Deists. Some of them were involved in Church but did so only for reasons of social and career advancement. That could be the reason for the non-Christian symbols. I don't know too much about Deism - I think. Deism is defined as:

Deism (n): Belief in God as revealed by nature and reason combined with a disbelief in scripture, prophets, superstition and church authority.

There is a webpage here that proports to show that some of the founding fathers were not Chrisians. I'm not sure how accurate the quotes are (or whether they really prove Deism), but assuming that they are accurate, they do indicate that they tried hard not to put Christianity into the government and even seemed to be actively hostile to Christianity:

http://www.deism.org/foundingfathers.htm

Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11:
“The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”

John Adams

From a letter to Charles Cushing (October 19, 1756):
“Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, ‘this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.’”

Thomas Jefferson:

Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
"One day the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in the United States will tear down the artificial scaffolding of Christianity. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

Jefferson's Autobiography
“[A]n amendment was proposed by inserting ‘Jesus Christ,’ so that [the preamble] should read ‘A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion’; the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination”

Letter to his nephew, Peter Carr, August 10, 1787:
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

Benjamin Franklin

From Franklin’s autobiography:
“Scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself ”

“...Some books against Deism fell into my hands....It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations, in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.”

Ethan Allen

From Religion of the American Enlightenment:
“Denominated a Deist, the reality of which I have never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian.”

George Washington

"The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy."

John Adams:

A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America, 1787–88:
“The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. … It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service [forming the U.S. government] had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses. …Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery… are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind”

What does an unfinished pyramid or the eye mean anyway? Well Ben Franklin claims he was a Deist according to his autobiography. Maybe they are Deism symbols?

You know, if the above quotes are accurate, the founding fathers must be turning over in their graves right now with Bush et al. in power. Though I think that the very strong Christian element in government has been growing for a long time, since the Cold War where Christianity was seen as the opposition of the aethist Communists (this is why "We trust in God" was added to the currency where it wasn't there originally).

Yes VERY interesting but why then did they choose the Eye of Providence to be put in the seal?

I don't know how accurate this is, but a quick Google search says the apparently the eye is also known as the All-Seeing Eye of the Great Architect of the Universe (the name Deist gave to their "God"). I also came across information that the pyramid has 13 layers reperesenting the original states and is unfinished so as to represent the fact that the young nation is still growing.

Yes VERY interesting but why then did they choose the Eye of Providence to be put in the seal?

Some of te founding fathers were freemasons and IIRC the pyramid with the eye is one of their symbols. There are also some theories of some other secret organisations...
However, Bush should read the biographies of these founding fathers concerning their religious attitude. I mean if he can do it...

Adler

P.S.: I leave it open if the sense of my last sentence means if he has the time or if he is able to do so... ;)

He probably cannot Adler, he needs a Pentagon gister for that.

llluminati. Not Freemasons. Google for it, you'll find incredible numbers of conspiracies and :crazyeye: organizations.
And a great book from Dan Brown (though IIRC it may not be sold to minors in the US - not because of political content, but other 'explicit' parts).

Some of te founding fathers were freemasons and IIRC the pyramid with the eye is one of their symbols. There are also some theories of some other secret organisations...

llluminati. Not Freemasons. Google for it, you'll find incredible numbers of conspiracies and organizations.

I've always heard that the pyramid with the all seeing eye is a Freemason symbol. Of course, maybe I'm being unduly influenced by "The Man Who Would Be King." Is there any crossover between the two groups?

llluminati. Not Freemasons. Google for it, you'll find incredible numbers of conspiracies and :crazyeye: organizations.
And a great book from Dan Brown (though IIRC it may not be sold to minors in the US - not because of political content, but other 'explicit' parts).

I suspect part of the reason for all the conspiracy theories is from a modern POV of religion, a lot of the beliefs of the founding fathers would be weird almost cultish behaviour rather than being seen as products of their day. One could almost say that compared to certain politicians we have today, the founding fathers' treatment of religion was much more sophisticated and modern. The general theme seems to be that they questioned their faith, God and themselves and the role of religion in government. I have a suspicion that some of the founding fathers could not have been elected in the present day politics because they would be accused of not being "comfortable" with their faith. (one accusation I've seen of Kerry) or even outright heresy. Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine (especially Thomas Paine) and James Madison would have been modern political failures. I mean if a politician today got up and said,

"Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and all of which facilitates the execution of mischievous projects. Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded project."

as James Madison did, would he have any chance of being elected to Congress let alone as President? Opinions ranged from Thomas Paines' very strong attack on Christianity and the Bible as a whole to people who were Christians but strongly disliked the power of the clergy and wanted to keep it as far away from government as possible eg. James Madison.

From what I understand, religion at the time was profoundly influenced by Newton's and other scientific discoveries which led to the belief in the potential for the mysteries of the universe to be explained by reason, not blind faith. Also there were dramatic unheavals politically in the French Revolution where the old antiquated order, including the clergy which was seen to be part of the old order, was swept aside by the "people". This led to a lot of soul-searching and discussion amongst intellectuals of the day over the meaning of faith and the role it has the new scientific and political developments of the day. This led to such new faiths as Deism which believes in God as an "Architect" and that says that their belief in God resides in reason and not faith and discussion on the role of religion in government.

In general there was little patience for what John Adams called, the "Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?" And I'm guessing that they also saw religion, or more specifically the faiths and traditions, the dogma and clergy as supporting the old order in repressing the people and for the new order of freedom, required a break in the power of the clergy.

As Thomas Jefferson put it:

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god."

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error
all over the earth."

Or Ben Franklin:

"When a Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."

I think a lot of why the beliefs of the Founding Fathers seem "weird" today and fodder for conspiracy theories, is because Christianity in the US today at least amongst the political establishment no longer has the sort of self-questioning attitude that the Founding Fathers did. Now you have to be "comfortable" with your faith. It is much easier to speculate that the founding fathers belonged to some weird cult than to accept that the foundations of Christian US was based on people who hated the power of the clergy and refused to accept traditional dogma. And that some of the important people involved in the founding of theUS were not even Christians!

As I understand it, the pyramid represents the foundations of the nation, which are firm, but unfinished (the top is unfinished). This is supposed to imply that the nation has a long way to go before it is firmly grounded, but is on the right track. The eye is supposed to represent the eye of god, who is watching over the nation to make sure it is following its foundations.

I'd guess that religion has a different role today than it did in the late 18th century, in so far as politics. Back then, the Enlightenment was in full swing, and it was thought that science could eventually elaborate all the mysteries of the universe, so that religion was seen as increasingly irrelevant. Also, religious devotion was connected to the wars of religion of the previous century, which were seen as destructive and meaningless.

200 years later, we're way past those events. Science has come and not given us wholly constructive applications. The wars of the 20th century were the most disastrous in history, and although one cannot equate their technology with science entirely, that perception may be in the human psyche. Also, communism gave people a reason to be suspicious of atheists, as one was often associated with another. Nowadays, the atmosphere of terrorism has given another "us vs. them" mentality. It's not only enough to be religious, but one must have the "right" religion.

It's not only enough to be religious, but one must have the "right" religion.


But let's not forget, this exclusively applies for one Western Civ today...
I admittedly have no clue which confession "my" chancellor has (Lutherian most likely), and I'd guess our vice-chancellor isn't even member of any church :eek:.

Well, I think Schröder is an atheist, since he never swore his oath with the religious amendment...

Adler

Well, I think Schröder is an atheist, since he never swore his oath with the religious amendment...

Adler

Interesting that none of us Germans on this forum actually knows what confessions our leading politicians are (I don't either) - though it can be supposed that the opposition, being Christian Democrats, are all (?) good christians - which is one reason I don't vote for them... :D

Religion is really mostly irrelevant in German politics, which is as it should be!

Didn't several of the founding fathers have a strong role in the founding of the Unitarian "church"?

My knowledge of US history is near non-existent, alas.

llluminati. Not Freemasons.

The Illuminati were originally a group within the freemasons. though it is recorded that some of the founding fathers were freemasons, their Illuminati membership ist most likely bogus. although there are nice theories like Adam Weishaupt, founder of the Illuminati being one and the same person as Washington :crazyeye:

Interesting that none of us Germans on this forum actually knows what confessions our leading politicians are (I don't either) - though it can be supposed that the opposition, being Christian Democrats, are all (?) good christians - which is one reason I don't vote for them... :D

Religion is really mostly irrelevant in German politics, which is as it should be!

right, don't know which confession Schröder is either. But I would make any bet Stoiber and Teufel are die-hard catholics.

At least, we all know Angela is a Eastern-German Protestant (and Westerwelle a "Junggeselle") :D.
Of course Stoiber is Catholic; being Protestant and CSU Member of Parliament is such a rare thing it guaranteed a job as minister (Spranger!).

Yes, surely the Illuminati are pretty mythological; but those books are a great read.

I don't know it either. :goodjob:

He's probably a protestant, but practically an atheist. I think the Schröder cabinet is the first in German history in which the majority of its member didn't swear the oath with the religious amendment...
...and I'd love to see our foreign minister in sneakers while swearing the oath again. :lol:

Westerwelle isn't a Junggeselle. Since he had his outing, he goes out with his lover all the time. :D

edit: Damn. I start to type oe instead of ö.