I was always led to believe the ME-262 was superior, because it flew faster.

However, yesterday, I was told that ME-262 lacked maneuverability and were easilly shot down by RAF Spitfires or Hurricanes. The ability to fly fast - in a straight line - makes the ME-262 sound quite vulnerable in a dogfight.

* Gloster Meteor *

Gloster were charged with developing a jet fighter from the succesful pre-war E.28/39 experimental jet. By July 1942, they had built several working Gloster G.41 prototypes. The first of those to be designated Meteor flew in March 1943.

Several powerplants were used to power early models. The best was arguably inventor Frank Whittle's W2/700 turbojet (2,485lbs thrust), but they did not enter mass production and Rolls-Royce Welland (1,700lbs thrust) were used instead.

Other jet engines used in Meteors were De'Havilland, and Rolls-Royce Derwent.

Gloster Meteor Mk.1 did enter service and is probably the model that famously engaged an unmanned flying bomb. The first squadron of RAF Gloster Meteor F.III was formed in 1944.

Gloster Meteor F.III spec:
470mph
40,000ft ceiling
Rolls-Royce Welland turbojets (2,000lbs thrust)

Design varients continued to Mk.17, and the series remained in service with the RAF until the 1950s. Other nations continued to operate them twenty or more years after that.

Mk.11 through Mk.14 were night fighters. Meteors were also used to test ejecting seats. Gloster Meteor Mk.8 attained 598mph.

* Messerschmitt ME-262 *

Like the Meteor, ME-262 development sprung from pre-war experiments with jet technology and the British E.28/39.

ME-262 airframes were finished by 1942, but the BMW and Jumo powerplants were delayed until 1944. Having the mountings designed as an afterthought, for an already finished airframe, has been cited as a possible cause of premature engine fatigue. The airframe suffered mechanical problems with sticky landing gear; it had been originally designed with a wheel beneath it's tail as seen on earlier prop-planes.

Many varients were built in a short time, including regular fighter (Schwalbe/Swallow), bad-weather fighter with extra guns, bomber, 2-seat bomber, and reconaisance.

The first entered Luftwaffe service towards the end of 1944. Hitler has been blamed for it's late entry into service, but the time scale matches that of the Gloster Meteor, and analysts think a more likely cause for delay was Germany's inability to produce servicable jet-engines.

They saw action action towards the end of WW2.

ME-262 spec:
541/560 mph
36,000ft ceiling

Luftwaffe instructions were never to exceed 560mph because, depending on the individual airframe, the plane may become uncontrollable and dive back down to earth. However, prototype #12 set a jet speed record of 624 mph.

* Pilots *

Clive Gosling was one of the few pilots to actually fly both planes. For each topic, he preferred..

Speed (engines): ME-262
Critical speed (airframe): ME-262
Turning: Meteor
Pilot view: Meteor
Armaments: ME-262
Reliability: Meteor*
Range: Meteor

* Apparently, the ME-262 suffered an engine-life of just 10 to 26 hours, depending on pilot treatment. This may have been partly responsible for Hurricane successes. The Meteor's engine life was in excess of 200 hours.

I doubt that any Hurricanes shot down an ME 262, I don't think that any were in front line service that late in the war. As the preferred method of "shooting down" a 262 was to follow it back to its base and attack as it slowed down to land, I'd guess that Tempests and Typhoons were used a fair bit though.

edit: I tell a lie, I see that the Hurricane was used in Europe until late 1944.

The Me 262. It was not so maneuverable but it could attack when in good position or avoid fighting. When fighting against piston engined planes the Me 262 was ever in advantage unless a shot hit the motor. Also most of the kills of Me 262 were when they landed. And the USAF refused a test fight with their new P 80 fighters very hard. The Me 262 is considered the best fighter until the 50s.

Adler

Apparently, the RAF Hurricane could beat an ME-262 by giving it a "blow job" :hmm:

I don't know what that means, but I think it has something to do with preying on the Messerschmitt's poor engine quality. Perhaps it is to outmaneuvre the faster plane, forcing it to flee, and in the haste the jet blows it's own engines?

Also, US Army were actually instructed to shoot ME-262 pilots still in their parachutes if they managed to bail out. The USA believed that only specially trained pilots could fly the aircraft. The USAAF also had a jet fighter, powered by clones of an earlier jet engine, but that served only in the USA (i.e. testing/training).

I think a "blow job" was allowing the plane to pass you and then nail it as it zoomed by, I think. In a Hurri with a stall speed of like less then 100mph could do this easily, especially if the 262 was piloted by an inexpericed pilot and expecially if the Hurri was armed with 4 20mm hispanos. I can believe a spitfire out manuvering a 262, but I can't see anything else out manuvering one other then La's and various luftwaffe aircraft.


And some high hanking Luftwaff Ace who had flown both the 262 and the meteor(can't remember if it was Galland or Molders) said his ideal plane would be a 262 with the engines of a meteor.

"Blow job" is just old slang for a jet engined plane. I'm surprised that it get's through the word filters. ;)

http://www.vflintham.demon.co.uk/aircraft/meteor/met4.jpg

In 1945 they were painted all-white with RAF markings, so old photos aren't much to look at. I didn't know they had in-flight refueling during WW2? :eek:

http://www.menet.umn.edu/~mlr/pix-html/Pix/Luftwaffe/ME262/me262.jpg

This is the ME-262. Can anyone identify the squadron, or pilot, from it's markings?

jg-7, nowotny

What's JG-7? :confused:

Since I posted the others, might aswell post the plane that started it: The Gloster Whittle E.28/39 "Midget". The midget flew before WW2, in 1939 I think. The pilot sat on the engine but this design was abandoned by British, American & German engineers.

http://www.airwar.ru/image/i/xplane/e28-39-i.jpg

The design was given to Russia, and has direct lineage to the MiG-15.. 17.. 19.. 21 and various Sukhoi jets of those eras. A similar design was also used in the RAF Lightning, so even if the humble Midget didn't do much, it remained an inspiration for many decades.

What's JG-7? :confused:


1st jet fighter wing

Neither, I'd fly the P-80. :p

FW- 190 TA series

The Me 262 was NOT used for maneuverable dogfights. Although the Me 262 was lacking maneuverability and a good long living engine, a fully functional Schwalbe was a too tough opponent for any Allied fighter. As I mentioned before it could easily avoid fightings and only accept them if in good position. However it was not the task of these fighters to attack incoming escort fighters but bombers. Also the Me 262 was the first fighter to achieve Mach 1, although this was dangerous since the plane was not build for that speed. However I read an article in Der Spiegel magazine a year ago. There an old pilot said following story:
He was attacking an Allied bomber pulk when a comrade of him had an engine damage. He was now trying to come home, but a mustang was nearing the lame duck. So the pilot made a full speed dive to shoot down the enemy to save the life of his friend. His Me 262 was nearly not manuverable when he got faster and faster. Suddenly the plane was manuverable again. He had the speed to come behind the Mustang and in the very last moment the P 51 was shot down by him. Then he landed and saw his plane severely damaged. Some nails were missing, the wing edges partly burned. It was a small wonder that he came back.
Also a British report of 1946 (!) remarks the abilities of the Me 262, in which it is said that the Schwalbe (swallow) was nearly not manuverable in very high subsonic speeds, but when reaching Mach 1 it was comletely manuverable again.
The Me 262 was lacking indeed. Nevertheless it was the best jet fighter until 1950. The British never dared to use their jet fighters against the Me 262 and also the USAF refused to do so.

Adler

Me 262 was the first fighter to achieve Mach 1
There may be a misleading technicality in that sentence ;)

Spitfires could attain Mach 1 in downward maneuvres. However, the high pressures caused the rear-wings to jam straight making it impossible for the pilot to pull-up! To fix that, Miles invented the all-turning tail-wing which were attached to some late Spitfire prototypes.

Gotha Komet (V-wing design) was the first plane to achieve Mach 1 in level flight. German engineers solved the jamming tail-wing problem by completely removing it. To reduce weight, it used a sled instead of undercarriage. This was a rocket plane.

Miles M.52 was the first jet designed in every detail for supersonic flight, also of WW2. It was built but never flew. An unmanned replica flew instead, and that did break the sound barrier.

ME-262 set the world speed record for a manned jet plane in level flight.

Americans took a Gotha Komet without wings, conventional straight wings, and the Miles tail wings. Stuck that together and dropped it from a moving prop-plane (because the airframe lacked an undercarriage) to break the sound barrier - but not under it's own power. Somehow, they managed to claim invention and a world record :dubious:

The Me 262 was lacking indeed. Nevertheless it was the best jet fighter until 1950. The British never dared to use their jet fighters against the Me 262 and also the USAF refused to do so.

Germany was quick to deploy new weapons. They practically tested them in the field. Everything was rushed. Demonstrating how much safety and testing meant to Germany, sometimes, their weapons blew up by themselves! :eek:

Gloster G.40 and G.41 were airworthy by 1942. I'm sure if these were German, both would have been pressed into service in one form or another.

During WW2, in European airspace, jets were in so few numbers that the probability of them actually meeting was small.

As I mentioned before it could easily avoid fightings and only accept them if in good position.
Engine failure was too common. Sudden (getaway) acceleration would have made this worse. From Google readings, RAF fighters commonly encountered ME-262 trying to limp home on one engine.

The first American jet was P-59 (1942). USAAF Major General witnessed a demonstration of the Gloster E.28/39 during a visit to England, April 1941. He was given a copy of the plans for that aircraft's powerplant. Later, a YP-59 would be traded for a Gloster Meteor.

As I had always thought, the P-80 (1944) was the second American jet. The airframe was built around de Havilland H1-B turbojet. Only two P-80 actually made it to Europe, so there's no wonder it didn't encounter ME-262!

Below: P-80

Meteor, I prefer reliability

Me too. I also like a minimal turning circle, which rules the Me 262 out ;)

I just discovered that the RAF had another WW2 jet fighter, designed in 1942 at de Havilland. Production was slow due to demand for their other aircraft (i.e. RAF Mosquito).

The resulting RAF Vampire did not fly until April 1945. It was the first jet to take off and land on a carrier (HMS Ocean, 3 December 1945). The first jet to fly across the Atlantic. Varient called the Sea Vampire was the first Royal Navy jet.

Details are sketchy:
> 500 mph
12,200 m ceiling

I may have seen it before, but had no idea it dated to WW2:

ME 263 was designed as a bomber killer and not as a dogfighter. Vs other fighters the idea was to hit them fast and get out. 4 30mm cannon made short work fast of most planes. It was march 45 when they had the most ME 262's in the air at one time- something like 27.

Then it was fundamentally flawed. Good bomber killers included the slow Beaufighter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Beaufighter). Speed is just not that important and the most succesful bomber killers of WW2 were slow heavy fighters.

Bomber killers emphasised (1) reliability for remaining airborne and patrolling, and (2) target aquisition which in those days demanded heavy radar suits. Me 262 are ill suited to both these requirements.

Looking at the details, Me 262 were only suitable for use as unarmed light bombers, a role in which they might have used speed to avoid interceptors in hostile airspace.

The speed wasn't for slow bombers. It was to blitz in and shoot the bomber to pieces and get out before the escorts could respond. A FW 190 or ME 109 were faster than a bomber as well. Even Hitlers idea to use it as a Fighter/Bomber wasn't as bad as what alot of people think. It didn't delay production because the engines weren't ready anyway and the idea was to use 1000+ of them for high speed bombing runs on the allied beach head. The reality was different of course but looking at Germanys position in 44 the theory was sound.

I'm not convinced. I honestly don't think Germany could mount an attack in 1944, and they had given up on the idea of long-distance bombing against the UK - believing the British to be far more advanced in radio navigation systems.

In retrospect, maybe the Me 262 would have been best deployed in anti-shipping, but I'm not sure Germany had a small-enough radar system capable of detecting ships.

Maybe the Me 262 simply didn't have a use.

The ME262 had a use but industrial problems, fuel/pilot shortages and the deteiorating situation at the front limited its effectiveness. Its a great what if type of question.

Yeah... Kind of like, what if Germany had more resources, and wasn't being bombed, and had smaller radar systems, and maintained air superiority, then the Me 262 might have made a great paperweight! :)

Once you have filled in all the ifs that made the Me 262 a failure, there aren't any roles left for the Me 262 to fill.

The ME 262 had its problems, but it was the first jet fighter to enter combat! Its true role was air superiority, but it never had enough numbers to turn back the british and American fighters. Its role was to deal with the P-51s and P-47s so that the ME 109s and FW 190s could attack the bombers.

I wouldn't say deal with. It did a far better job simply being a distraction then anything. They leave a pretty obvious trail in the air, and most squads probably had a "destroy all 262s at any cost" order.

I must agree that it would be just as good as bombing as it would be at fighting. Could easily speed in, drop it's load and be gone before gunners had the time to react

The Me 262 was built to avoid the fightings with escorting fighters and to attack the bombers. Therefor speed was imminent- but also a disadvantage as the time of shooting and hitting was very short. However 4 Mk 108 (Mk= Maschinenkanone) 30 mm guns were enough to damage a B 17 heavily or destroy it without a great chance of the gunners to shoot. In fights with enemy fighters a single hit of only 1 canon was enough to destroy a fighter. I read about the first flight of Steinhoff with the new plane. He flew to the Eastern front and encountered with his Kaczmarek several Russian planes. He identified them as it was a sightseeing tour. To the left we see Sturmovics, then a pair Jaks and so on. Suddenly he saw one of the enemy fighter in front of him. He shot a few shells and the plane exploded. Then the Russians were at once shocked. He turned and took another out. This time 3 of his guns were jammed but the third destoryed the right wing of the Russian fighter. The Russians were then, although being superiror in numbers, fleeing, but a third and last plane crashed when the pilot was avoiding the shots of Steinhoff.
This is only one example. However as it was mentioned the reliability of the engines were not very good. This was the only big lack of the plane.
Although manuverability is important it is not alone decisive. IIRC the British were shocked by the FW 190. In a press conference a journalist asked a British officer if the situation is half serious since the Spitfire was better manuvering. The officer responded that this was only a small advantage and with manuvering at all a fight is not won. Also the Japanese Zero was better manuverable than most other US planes and if the US pilots accepted these terms they were mostly doomed. At first the Japanese pilots had a big scoring list but then the US were coming as they did not fight with manuvering.
JG 7 was the first squadron to be equipped with the Me 262 fighters in the fighter role. It was named after Walter Nowotny who died in a Me 262 while attacking a US bomber. He downed the plane but the gunner was able to hit his engine that escorting fighter could catch him. IIRC he was able to shoot two of them down before he died.
In 1944 Germany had also an airborne RADAR which was able to detect ships.
Also in that time General Galland was preparing for one decisive battle against an allied bomber pulk. He weanted to attack with 2.000 fighter. He estimated the enemy losses by 200- 400 planes out of 1000. Such a victory would have seriously hit the allied strategy. Hitler forbade these action when he got to know that. He ordered instead the battle of the Bulge, where many of these planes were destroyed unneccessarily... This was also one reason for the "mutinity of the fighter pilots" in the start of 1945...
I agree the Me 262 was not a bad jet bomber. However it was planned as fighter and the reuse as bomber costed time, time which wasn´t available. If the Me 262 got the priority as fighter it would have been ready for use in several wings in the crtical time of the late summer 1944. Then together with the planned offensive against bombers these planes, who were very feared by US pilots, the US bomber offensive would has been crippled and so time would has been won. General Spaatz spoke in a secret memorandum to abandon the bombing offensive when the use of Me 262 was extensified. This was in August 1944 IIRC and only a very fewe fighters were used. Imagine the fact when not only a few squadrons but several wings were attacking...
A last word for the abilities of the Me 262 as a bomber: In spring 1945 a British unit crossed the Dutch German border near Geldern. They were attacked by 55 Me 262 bombers. 3 of them were shot down by allied planes but they could do so much damage that the Brits were retreating to Holland.

Adler

Adler have you a source for the 55 ME 262 used at once? Galland was planning a Luftwaffe counter offensive against the bombers but precious planes, fuel and pilots were wasted in the Battle of the Bulge.

It was in February 1945, when 55 Me 262 were attacking British troops near Kleve. The book is: Die großen Luftschlachten des Zweiten Weltkrieges, ISBN 3- 7043-6029-5, page 209.

Adler

It was in February 1945, when 55 Me 262 were attacking British troops near Kleve. The book is: Die großen Luftschlachten des Zweiten Weltkrieges, ISBN 3- 7043-6029-5, page 209.

Adler

I rad a good book to on the Luftwaffe. It was called the final year or something similar from may 44-45. Very interesting book dealing with the final German planes built and Luftwaffe plans. The last sortie was on May 8 I think and the pilot shot down some yaks or something in a FW 190

The ME 262 had its problems, but it was the first jet fighter to enter combat! Its true role was air superiority, but it never had enough numbers to turn back the british and American fighters.
It was never an air superiority fighter!

For one, it lacked the turning to engage enemy fighters. Secondly, it lacked reliability for remaining continuously airborne. Third, it lacked the electronics to detect enemy fighters!

If it was intended as an air superiority fighter, then it was an abysmal failure. Even if you say that the engineers expected better engines, they still behaved too rash for it to be as a reliable air superiority fighter. The RAF kept testing the Gloster G.40 for six years whereas the Luftwaffe attached untested engines and put their plane straight into frontline service. My conclusion was that it had to be a "specialist" plane, not bread & butter air-superiority.

I prefer the theory that it was intended as a small bomber, and was deployed "best of a bad job" as an anti-bomber weapon to supplement the Komet. There's no way I'm going to believe the Me 262 was actually designed to be used in the same way as a Komet though!

Another possibility is that the Me 262 Schwalbe was intended to stop RAF Mosquito bombers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Mosquito). This, I think, is very plausible. German command was known for using highly descriptive names: Me 262's namesake (schwalbe or swallow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swallow)) is an aereal feeder that would naturally prey on mosquitoes.

RAF Mosquito ended the war with the lowest loss rate of any aircraft in RAF Bomber Command service. It was also faster than most German fighters.

Even with speed (and reliable engines), the Me 262 would not be ideal for that role because it didn't compete in electronic warfare, and the Mosquito was a capable dog fighter in it's own right.

Adler, the Zero was not the amazing Japanese plane. There was another that the Americans were much more afraid of but I have forgotten it's name now :(

For some reason, Hollywood glorified the Zero, and ignored the more dangerous planes.

Such as the AichiVal..

BTW,
If I had the chance to pilot them, I'd pilot BOTH! :p

The 262 was faster more manouverable and had better firepower than the meteor. However the rolls royce engines that powered it were much better and in a 262 airframe would outperform the german engines. They were also more reliable and didnt have to be changed after 4 hours of flight time.

i would prefer to fly the 262 but i could fly the meteor (i live near a small airfield and could hire 1 :D)

The Val was a Japanese bomber! Hardly a threat to fighter plane.

Electronic Warfare!!! We are talking 1944/45, not 2000!! When you have 1000 heavy bombers and 1000 mustangs attacking the Reich, you want to waste space and weight in your plane with electronics???

The ME 262 was not susposed to "dogfight" with mustangs. The ideal was to swoop in, shoot down one and speed away, than come back for another pass at another target. Much the same way the Americans dealt with the Zero. Even an old P 40 could take out a Zero by diving on it, and than speeding away before coming back for another pass.

RAF Lancasters and mosquitos were equiped with radar jammers and chaffs in 1944. they used them to a great extend and this was the start of an electronic war which went on into the 1990s with ferriting russian chinese vietnamese and korean radars by western powers as well as their allies.

Adler, the Zero was not the amazing Japanese plane. There was another that the Americans were much more afraid of but I have forgotten it's name now :(

For some reason, Hollywood glorified the Zero, and ignored the more dangerous planes.

The Zero was the most dangerous plane the Japanese had. you may be thinking of the flying bomb they had, the Baka. It had a jet or rocket engine, I forget which, and was, literally, a guided bomb with the "guideance" being a man on a suicide mission. They were dropped from a bomber in the vicinity of the target. They were extremely scary to the men on the ships, but, were not a threat to the fighter planes. They were really a super Kamikaze.

RAF Lancasters and mosquitos were equiped with radar jammers and chaffs in 1944. they used them to a great extend and this was the start of an electronic war which went on into the 1990s with ferriting russian chinese vietnamese and korean radars by western powers as well as their allies.

Lancasters flew at night and the ME 262 was a day fighter. EW was and is an essential part of air warfare, but in the daylight skies over Germany in 1944/45, it was mostly the Flak guns that relied on radar control. I don't believe any of the German day fighters even had radar installed.

Ace the zero was not the most dangerous plane the japs flew theres a land based plane that overtook the zero after 1943 i belive allthough the year may be wrong. At any rate it was better in every way to the zero and American pilots struggled with it untill the downfall of japan. It was a piston plaen, ill put info when i remember what it was called.

Actually the me262 had nigth fighter varients with airborn radar, and even without the airborne radar the planes could rely on information from the control centre which vectored the planes onto their targets.

Im sorry but you need to read up on your hsitory in a bit more depth before you start telling people they are wrong.

ACe,

The Japanese rocket suicide plane was called an Ohka, which means Cherry Blossom.
Baka means Idiot.. ;)

Also, there were Me-262 night fighter variants with radar, like wwhat the Sergeant said.

BTW, how much does hiring a Meteor cost?

In the US the Me 262 is produced again, with all parts, except the engines (the engines of a F 4 Phantom 2 are used IIRC). They want to sell these planes as sporting planes. I don´t know if Mk 108 guns are included... Nevertheless an interesting plane. Then another should hire an old F 80 and the dogfight could start...

Adler

I dont know how much it would cost lol, allthough i have heard that to buy one isnt too bad (costs a lot yes obviously ;) ) but its actually the hangar space and fuel that makes it expensive :(. You would need a pilots liscense and proof that you could fly it even though it is reckoned to be rather an easy plane to fly.