Hi,

By playing the GOTM's and COTM's I've been able to increase my level of play to a point where I now consistently win on Emperor level (C3C, that is). However, demigod games are far less frequent in the xOTM's, and Deity games don't occur, so I'm looking for a different way to increase my level of play. :scan:

A builder by nature, I find myself struggling with effective warmongering. I tend to build too many units before launching an attack, and I dread oversea-battles. I'm also sure there are still basic game concepts that I failed to comprehend up till now. Time to bridge those gaps :ninja: , and hence this training game.

The idea is as follows :
- it's not a succession game; I'd like to play all moves myself in sessions of 10 or 20 turns (or whatever makes sense at the moment) and compare them to what others did starting from the same save. After each comparison, one of the saves is chosen to continue with.
- The focus is on warmongering.
- I don't intend to allow myself an easy starting position or game settings. It's training, after all. :eek:

If you've mastered deity already and feel like giving some advice, put in a small post below so I know you're looking over my shoulder. All others : we have a special lounge for lurkers; make yourself comfortable. :)

Oh, before I forget : I'm very limited in time, so the game might slow down at times. I do commit to finishing the game however, no matter how long it takes. :D

Let's take a look at the preferred settings (C3C f1.22) :
level : deity
map : standard
barbarians : raging
landmass : continents (70% water), wet, cool, 3 billion years old
AI agression : normal
rivals : 7 random

Enabled victories : domination, space race, diplomatic, conquest, cultural (not 'wonder victory')
culturally linked start loc : OFF
respawn AI : OFF
preserve random seed : ON
no accelerated prodcution, elimination, regicide, mass regicide, victory points, or princess
Cultural conversions : ON
Scientific leaders : OFF
AI-patrol fixed (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=103616).

Although the usual victory conditions are enabled, the goal of the training game is to win by conquest.

Which civ to play ?
- I'm looking for a difficult game, so not a civ with militaristic traits;
- expansionist civs require a special approach (goody-hut hunting), so that's out as well;
- Industrious workers are always a huge bonus, so that's out as well;
- no agricultural civ either : the extra food at the start is worth a lot;
- Scientific seems to be about the least-valuable trait, since we'll want the tech pace to go slow, so let's take a scientific civ.

i don't want to start with Alphabet either, since that gives an easy platform to start research on Writing.

It looks like The Babylonians are our only option. :)

That ok for everyone ?

u got a lurker here :scan:

Lurker coment:

The Byzantines start with Alphabet (seafaring)

Yep, your only option is in fact Babylon (SCI/REL). Anyone else starts with Alpha, or is IND/MIL/EXP/AGR :).

Lurker coment:
The Byzantines start with Alphabet (seafaring)
Of course... I meant Babylonians (Scientific, Religious).
I'll update my earlier post.

Dropping in by request... ;)

One question first: Do you have any experience on Deity level? If the answer here is "no" or "limited experience", don't make it too difficult on yourself and try playing as, for example, Sumeria. AGR/SCI, so no alphabet, but somewhat more options expansionwise. Also, you'll find out that scientific is one of the better traits to have on higher levels. The free tech really helps if you're in a tight spot.
If the answer to the question is "yes", then Babylon should provide a nice challenge... :)

I haven't played a single Deity game yet. :(
No problem for me to switch over to Sumer.
I'm waiting for a couple more reactions before starting.

Well, raging barbs is also a concern at this kind of level.

One suggestion would be to tone down the barbs, and maybe go archipelago since you havent played deity?

That would make the Byzantines a good choice.

Maybe some experienced players could provide you some help with a decent and suitable set up for a training game?

JJ

I wouldn't do archipelago since Ambiorix has specifically stated he wants to do some warmongering, so it's either continents or pangaea, and I'd suggest continents, 'cause pangaea tends to have an even faster techpace (like lightning speed). Defininately tone down the barbs to restless or even lower (good catch tomasjj!).
@Ambiorix: First deity game??? Then take the Iroquois! Great UU, great traits. Yes, you start with alphabet, but as a first time deity player, handicapping yourself is not a good thing. AI's: Pick mostly religious AI's. Deity AIs tend to get 2 turn anarchy's anyway, so them getting a 1-turn anarchy won't make a difference, so one of the AI's traits will be weakened in its' effect, and you might need that advantage, as it is your first deity game...

Ah. Didnt catch that he wanted warmongering. That leaves out archipelago right.
Iroquois would do nicely I reckon.
The tech pace will still be awesome on continents though, and you wont be helped by not being scientific (as it actually is an ok trait on high levels.)
But I guess you want to squeeze all the techs out of the AIs :)

JJ

Thanks for the feedback, guys.
OK to tone down barbarians to restless.
I'd like to cling to continents, since I specifically want to tackle overseas-warfare.
Sumer still sounds reasonable, since they're both scientific and religious. Iroquois as entry-level civ would give me too much the feeling that I'm making things easy on myself (relatively speaking).
But I can be convinced...

I suggest you play a couple of test-starts with both iro and sumer to get the feel for deity, since you havent tried it.

Good luck Ambiorix. I am also about this same level and inclinations so I will be lurking in the lounge. Dibs on the purple chair.

Thanks for the feedback, guys.
OK to tone down barbarians to restless.
I'd like to cling to continents, since I specifically want to tackle overseas-warfare.
Sumer still sounds reasonable, since they're both scientific and religious. Iroquois as entry-level civ would give me too much the feeling that I'm making things easy on myself (relatively speaking).
But I can be convinced...

1 - Sumeria is AGR/SCI, not SCI/REL (that's Babylon)
2 - Even though demigod level was designed to make the step up to deity (from emperor) less devastating, it is still quite a big step and as a first timer on deity you really can use all the advantage you can get. Take the Iroquois, and trust me, it won't be easy...

Well, if i ask advice I better take it when it's offered... :)
So, it's restless barbs and Iroquois as changes to the initial settings.
No time for test-runs, JJ, so I'm gonna start the game up and stick with the first position I get (unless it's permafrost).
BRB...

The gods are smiling on us : seeing our mountainous start, they sent one of the mountain-goats down and converted it into a cow ! :)
(Let's hope they converted another one into horses...).

England, Sumer, Rome, China, India, Greece and Carthago volunteered to help us reach our conquest-goal. :ninja:

initial thoughts : settler is on a BG that's not next to the river, and there seems to be a lot of ice and snow to the NE. Seems reason enough to move the settler SW. Worker to the cow first to check the terrain.

The settler is not on the river? Then, like you said: worker W, settler SW...

I'm not sure how active I'll be but I'll definitely be lurking on this thread :)

initial thoughts : settler is on a BG that's not next to the river, and there seems to be a lot of ice and snow to the NE. Seems reason enough to move the settler SW. Worker to the cow first to check the terrain.
Absolutely, go for it! As the Iroquois using one turn to be on a river is easily worthwhile, and the cattle are the first place for the worker of course. Irrigating the cattle would give a +5f/turn town - things look promising for a four turn settler factory being available.

This looks like a promising start! I'll be lurking this one and hope some of the higher level players will do the same. So they can give comments and usefull info during the game. This can be a very usefull game to follow for players trying to make the great leap from emperor to deity. Good luck Ambiorix! :goodjob:

Okay, I'm ll set up to play :
- downloaded the C3C reference guide (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3reference.shtml);
- got MapStat (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=52902) running in the background;
- got my own AI Tech research sheet (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=104456) as well;
- opened an Excel-spreadsheet to take notes of my moves;
- Screenshot-utilities (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=83728) are always handy;
- Offa's town capture simulator (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=104677) is running as well.

In case anyone wants to have a go as well, I'm attaching the initial save below. I'll play 20 turns, then come back with the results and a detailed log of my moves for discussion. Please do not post spoiler info before then. :)

Edit : I think the initial 3 BG tiles make it already enough for a 4-turn settler factory, no ? Well, I'll find out right away...

Ambiorix, I think you and I are at about the same skill level. I didnt see anyone else volunteer yet, so if you want I would like to play out the first 20 turns and post a save for comparison. I'll wait before I here from you before I make a post. Thanks.

Ambiorix, I think you and I are at about the same skill level. I didnt see anyone else volunteer yet, so if you want I would like to play out the first 20 turns and post a save for comparison. I'll wait before I here from you before I make a post. Thanks.
:thumbsup:

If it's okay for everyone, I'll only put summaries of my actions in the posts here, and provide full details in attachment. I have the habbit of keeping my notes in Excel; I hope that's not a problem for anyone ? I suppose i could do it in plain text, but I just like the excel-template I use. Let me know what you think. (Want to keep the patrons in the Lounge happy :) ).

Okay, so we seem to be on a peninsula, with the English downstream and not much room for expansion. This is going to be tough.
Critical decision moments were :
1. build order; I took warrior-settler-granary
2. direction to explore after reaching the SE-end : go west, or check NE for land-bridges. I decided to go west.

The last turn (3000BC) is actually not yet finished : Bethy has a worker to trade. I usually buy those without a second thought, but this time she's really charging an arm and a leg (4gpt and 53g or something). Should I go for it ??

I'm interested to hear comments. I suppose if people play parrallel games there will be some spoiler info, but I hope it's nothing too dramatical, and I can always pretend not to know.

Oh, in an upspring of unusual patriotism I gave Flemish names to my cities. :mischief: If that obscures comparison too much, I'll rename them back.

Edit : added screenshot.

As mentioned in my first post, gameplay will often be interrupted by RL. Chances are I won't be able to play before the weekend; you may want to subscribe to this thread to get automatic notifications.

"Meanwhile, please return to your seats : tea and biscuits will be served shortly."
[Now who gets that reference ? :D ]

SPOILERS - Dont read if you are playing along.

Here is my save. I cant post my comments until later, maybe tomorrow.

I didnt do any research to start. When I saw my only neighbor, I started full out on warrior code (archer rush). I think they are the only neighbor b/c they only have 3 more tech than me. I built 3 wars then a settler, no granary. My second city is two turns away and a settler is coming in three turns.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Budweiser_of_the_Iroquois,_3000_BC.SAV

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Iroquois_3000bc.jpg

Ambiorix, looks like we are more alike than I thought. Did almost the same except I settled the hill next to the wheat in order to maximize territory. There are alot of bad tiles out there and this way I enclose all the good ones and discourage the AI from putting cities near me. Now I can add cities at my own pace to the fringes and share the good tiles. Also I did not want to waste the BG at the end of the river.

I would buy the worker and put as much money on the installment plan, just as insurance for peace. You can adjust your sliders before F4 to enhance your credit rating.

My dad is from Bergen op Zoom so I expect to eventually see that city by the fish.

Now I have a couple of questions. I am at work and I dont have access to the game.

Pied Piper - Is that hill you founded on a river tile? If not, then you lose the agricultural bonus, right? I'm not sure I would put it there. It looks like this small starting valley can give two settler factories or a settler and a worker factory.

Second, should a granary be built in the capitol or will the inherant agricultural and cow bonus be enough to produce settlers every 4 or 5 turns.

Third, by not doing any research to start, I think I made a mistake. But, I'm not sure a minimum run to writing was right in this case either since we knew england was in the game right from the start and they are likely to get writing before we do. I wish I started warrior code faster, but is that always a good choice with Iroquios? I have never played Iroquois before. Thanks.

I just found you can use these fancy lurker comment tags very easy.

@Ambiorix; I like de way you use an excel sheet for your turn log. Do you mind if I copy it and use it for my own?

I would settle on the river, the agricultural bonus is just to big to resist. Irigating the grassland and building a granery in both cities would create a settler and a worker factory. Two settler factories is going to be hard due to the lack of shields.

@Ambiorix; I like de way you use an excel sheet for your turn log. Do you mind if I copy it and use it for my own?
Not at all; go right ahead.

I would settle on the river, the agricultural bonus is just to big to resist. Irigating the grassland and building a granery in both cities would create a settler and a worker factory. Two settler factories is going to be hard due to the lack of shields.
My main reason for settling the BG-tile next to the game forest was indeed to be next to the river, whilest staying close to the forest-game. The forest-game *must* be worked by the second city, since the capitol doesn't need it to be a 4-turn settler factory. There's not enough shields present for the second city to become a settler factory as well, so I plan to share the grassland wheat with my third city.

I will stop by once in a while.

Ronald

Hi Ambiorix,

Good luck taking down deity! Do you wish for lurkers to post advice in this thread, or is it just for game comparisons?

By the way, I used your AI research tendencies spreadsheet for the first time the other day, and it was most helpful. Thanks!

Do you wish for lurkers to post advice in this thread, or is it just for game comparisons? Please, do post advice ! I'm very interested in hearing different opinions.

There is another option regarding the game tile if you chose to pursue it: you could use it in the capitol to have a 4-turn warrior/settler factory at size 4.5-6.5.

With the above arrangement for the capitol, Bruges could still be set up as a 2-turn worker factory fairly easily. I am not sure if it will need to be size 4.5 or a bit larger, because I don’t have corruption values memorized and I am currently at work. Also, that 2-turn speed is with a granary, of course, and with the English so close you may or may not want a second granary.

I believe Bruges could also become a 5-turn settler factory, but that would require some additional tile development and a good deal of micromanagement of the two cities.

Interesting thoughts. I don't think I'll want a second granary, since space seems to be quite limited. also, with both cities producing settlers (4-turn and 5-turn), I'd be lacking warriors for patrol and barb-chasing. So my idea is to keep Ghent as 4-turn settler factory, and chop-irrigate the game for food-bonus in Bruges. Bruges would also be at +5f then, which in turn would make the wheat available for the 3rd city. What do you think ?

Meanwhile, I sneaked in another 10 turns, and things seem to be going well.
We met Sumer and did some trading. Ghent has produced its first settler already, which is headed for the grassland wheat. Furs were discovered in the north (details attached).

I'm bit lost regarding the best build strategy for Bruges : workers ? settlers ? warriors ? A second granary, when they're running at +5 ? A temple perhaps ??

I'm a big fan of warrior/settler combo factories, but it sounds like you have a good plan to me: it certainly maximizes your food. A barracks in Bruges might be good. Then it would make a nice 4-turn warrior/worker factory with no granary needed. It would be nice to be ready just in case Sumeria and England decide to duke it out--or you encourage their confrontation.

It looks like you are doing very well. :goodjob: I have one question. Are you going to wait till the other players have submitted their turns before playing and choose the best game to continu of are you going to finish this game.

It looks like you are doing very well. :goodjob: I have one question. Are you going to wait till the other players have submitted their turns before playing and choose the best game to continu of are you going to finish this game.
I don't know how many people are actively following this game, and how many want to play along.
Currently, I'm just playing whenever I get the time (every couple of days or so, but that tempo may drop), and check comments or saves as they come in.

If people want to play a parrallel session, let me know and I'll wait until you've posted your save.

I just discovered Writing, and new strategies need to be developed, but first an update of what happened :

bad news : I lost a settler+warrior party to barbs; horses are nowhere to be seen (yet); and everyone got writing a turn or 2 before I did.

good news : we met Rome and China and after some trading were even tech leader for a few turns (but now they're ahead again); I now have 6 towns; iron is right next to Ghent and is already hooked up :D; England is the weakest opponent, is right next to us, has incense near us, and has just finished Colossus.

What do you folks think :
- next research : Literature at minimum ?
- how many swords should I have before taking on England ?

Details below.

Hi, I'm just chiming in - good luck with your game. The jump from Emperor -> Deity is harder in C3C than PTW or Vainlla. Some coments:

* I'd place your next city SW of the northwestern Sugar. You'll be able to make it to size 3 population due to being Agricultural, and mining 2 hills and the Sugar hill, you'll get 7 production (including the center square). You won't be able to get past size 3, but you'll have some nice production. A Spearman every 3 turns, or a Swordsman every 5.

* Try to bring the irrigation from Bruges down to the southern plains. Plains with irrigation and roads bring in 2 food, 1 shield, and 2 gold. This makes them workable, and they give a decent amount of production combined with a hill (since you have an odd amount of food from the city square being Agricultural, the hill will even out your fpt).

* I would do Literature at whatever gets you there quickest. I find that (at Demigod), it's much better to do self research. The ~100 gold that you get from minimum research when you can do better will get extorted away by the AIs, and it's not enough really to buy your own techs - some are expensive. However, if minimum is the 'most' you can do, then do it. The AI tends to neglect Literature, so you might get there 1st, if not close to it.

* York should be your main goal; incense for happiness (you don't have any luxuries yet), and you'll have 2 extra to trade. The AI will pay some nice money for the luxury. For England, I'd say maybe around 15 Swordsmen. I'm not sure though, I haven't looked at the save. That'd be a good amount to take a couple of cities and get peace for some nice stuff.

* One last thing I thought of: if you station a warrior on hills and see the 20 surrounding squares, barbarians can't appear. Barbarians don't appear in terrain you can see what is happening. A couple of warriors in the fog could allow you to send your settlers out unguarded, knowing they'll be safe, and allowing you more production on swordsman rather than escorts.

Good luck!

next research : Literature at minimum ?
- how many swords should I have before taking on England ?

Is the philosophy slingshot a no-go due to the AI research rate?

On swords, if you get someone else (like Sumer) into a war with England and send your troops in after they start to fight, then you can probably take several cities with around 8 swords (although I love to take around 4-8 catapults along when I play C3C). If only you and England are at war, you will probably need much more than that--unless you just want to take York and then give them peace. Since York is a hilltop city, catapults will be particularly useful.

Is the philosophy slingshot a no-go due to the AI research rate? Well, you tell me. these are the turns in which England got a tech :
turn 8 : Cer. Bur.
turn 10 : Bronze
turn 20 : Wheel
turn 24 : Masonry, from us
turn 25 : Warrior Code
turn 27 : Mysticism
turn 48 : Math
turn 49 : Writing
(currently turn 51)

On swords, if you get someone else (like Sumer) into a war with England and send your troops in after they start to fight, then you can probably take several cities with around 8 swords (although I love to take around 4-8 catapults along when I play C3C). If only you and England are at war, you will probably need much more than that--unless you just want to take York and then give them peace. Since York is a hilltop city, catapults will be particularly useful.Let's take worst case scenario : I'm behind in tech and don't have anything to offer to get an ally, so I'm on my own. The primary targets of a war would be York (incense) and London (Colossus). But to reduce chances of flipping, and since England occupies the only direction in which I can expand, I want to go for the whole kill. :hammer:
I have never used catapults before in warfare ! Didn't think they were really useful... Any good advice somewhere on how to use them ? You reckon i should launch my attack with about 16 swordsman and 6 catapults ??

I’m really hesitant to give advice on such big issues given that I am not looking at your game, but I will give it a shot and just trust you will dismiss it if you think its a bad idea.

My solo games are almost always Deity, and in games in which I am able to get Alph/Writing early, I am first to Philosophy more often than not. Sometimes I am able to get CoL first, or trade for it, but that does not happen as often. It looks like your AIs are moving along in tech pretty nicely, so going Philosophy is risky. Nevertheless, if you can research it in 16 turns or less (at max and taking into account growth), then I would go for it. If it is going to take more than 16 turns to research it, then I would go Lit, but I would not do 10% research because the Deity AIs will beat you to it. Hopefully, you will be able to use whichever tech you get to put someone at war with England (and pick up a few techs). This will also help prevent ending up on the bottom of an AI dogpile.

If you go it alone against England, I think I would attack with 9 swords and 6 catapults, making sure that more swords are on the way. That should be enough to get you York with about 7 swords left, and then you can pick off several of the AIs offensive units outside the city while you wait for a few reinforcements to arrive. When they do you can march on London. The reason I would attack early with a small force, is because I expect after you take about 3 cities you will be able to demand 1-2 more cities (or some techs) for peace. Then you can send your troops to take someone else while you wait for the 20 turns of peace to expire. If you prefer to immediately take London after York, then I expect you will need 13 healthy swords, and if London is also on a hill I would try to have 9 catapults.

In C3C, catapults (and all bombarding units) are extremely powerful because they attack cities much more effectively than they did in PTW. Not only do they allow your units to live longer (especially against fortified units and hilltop cities), but they indirectly help you get leaders because of the better survival and battle odds they create for your attacking units.

I believe there is an article on bombarding units in the War Academy, but they are pretty simple to use. Keep them all together in a stack (I usually have 6-8, any more than that and I build new stacks), and move them stacked with your offensive units. If I expect the AI to have a lot of offensive units, then I add two defensive units (such as spears) to the stack. Try to always keep your artillery near the front lines, because they are slow. Never leave them in a city that might flip, and remember that they cannot move into unroaded jungle, swamp or mountain terrain. On some maps, you have to plan for this and have workers building roads in terrain where you expect to send your catapults next.

Excellent advice ! :goodjob:
It's these kind of arithmetics where I need to develop better insight.
I’m really hesitant to give advice on such big issues given that I am not looking at your game, but I will give it a shot and just trust you will dismiss it if you think its a bad idea.Don't worry, I'll still use common sense and sound judgement of my own.

Another session played, and life is still great. That of england has a cloud of doom above it...

I currently have 6 swords, 1 spear and 4 warriors that will be upgraded if I get enough money together. I'm 9 turns from Literature, which means I will have researched it in about 26 turns.
In those next 9 turns, I'll have enough swords to attack York and spears to defend my outer cities. Waiting any longer to attack England would not be wise I think, since they already have mapmaking, which I desperately want for suicide galleys, and it also means I may have to defend other coastal cities. Further more, England is rather weak, and may get attacked soon by Sumer anyhow.
When I attack, I may be able to convince Rome or China to join me. China is a bit backwards, and neither would be able to do much substantial, leaving England as a prey to me only. Including Sumer in the war would make them too powerfull.
I won't be able to include catapults, however, since I don't have maths yet. Maybe I can trade for it after I get Literature, but at that moment the attack will already start...
Stay tuned ! :)

In every game I build at least a dozen catapults and upgrade them throughout. The nice thing is you won't need a barracks to build them. When attacking I bring along at least 3 per defender, and at least one defensive unit to guard them. Roads are essential for moving them, and can act as a huge force multiplier for defending the homelands.

End of the QSC ! (for the xOTM-insiders ;))
A lot has happened : in 1175 I was the first to get Literature. Techs were widely distributed amongst the AI, which gave me a lot of trading possibilities : I acquired CoL, Math, Poly, Philo, MapM, HB Riding and 193g in one turn. I could have bought Construction as well, but it was too expensive to buy from Rome, and since England had it as well...
after the trading I established embassies with Rome and China (didn't have money before the trading, otherwise would have done that first), but neither could be convinced to join me against England.

So next came my first Deity act of war : :ninja: War against England !
This war lasted only 5 turns, in which I gained York and London (with Colossus and Oracle :D), and auto-razed Hastings. That was enough for them to gift me construction, Warwick, Coventry and some gold for peace.
Oh, and in the last turn Rome and China declared war on each other. Spontaneously. :cool:

So... now I need a new plan. Suggestions are welcome...
I'm currently building some settlers to fill in a couple of voids. I'm also planning a couple of suicide-galleys. How long would my swords remain useful ? I'll have currency in 16t; I suppose the AI will get there before me, unless they make a detour via Republic or Monarchy.

I got the habbit over time to check on 'productivity' in the F11-screen to get an idea of how well I'm doing. Currently I'm 2nd. Once the expansion phase is over, it's all about how fast you can produce stuff - that's the logic behind it. Anyone else do this, or would you call this a misleading factor ? I'm 2nd in some other statistics too, and 1st in population, which tells me the 3 civ's I haven't met yet are probably not doing a very good job (they haven't reached the MA yet either).

I do think Sumer should be my next target, but I can't do it alone. I'll need something to convince Rome and China to join. Kish, right next to London has horses - those would be nice to start my golden age.

I'm rambling on here - gonna finish with some attachments and then go to :sleep: :sleep:.

To be complete, here are some QSC-stats for 1000BC :
- All AA techs, except currency, Republic and Monarchy
- 15 towns, 39 pop.
- 1 granary, 2 barracks, Oracle and Colossus
- 9 workers, 3 slaves, 3 warriors, 3 spears, 11 swords, 1 catapult
MapStat 2.9.0 gives me 10083 QSC-score.

And I forgot to mention : I'm saving every turn, so if anyone wants to look at a specific turn (e.g. the trading), just ask.

Nice opening war! I agree with Sumerian horses being your next target. Do you use crpMapStat? I suspect the risk is small, but you may want to use it to guard against culture flips in London.

Yep, I use MapStat. Been keeping an eye on London, but it's good you mention it. I should probably pull my troops out and just keep a warrior as MP.

For the moment I'm building settlers and galleys for suicide-runs. Any suggestions on how to tackle Sumer ? I'm thinking of a limited war, just to get the 'good' cities in the plains, and leave them the hills. I'd need to do that before they get pikes though...

Parrallel plot is to send out galleys and contact the remaining 3 civs, then instantly declare war on them (I suppose they're more backwards, since they don't show up as competitors in landmass or population in F8, and because I'm 'number2' in several stats in F11.

I would try very hard to get an AI to declare on Sumer. On the turn that happens, I would make sure London, York and workers near borders were covered by military units. Also have a few swords in the mountain S, SE of York. Hopefully, this would cause Sumer to send their offensive units toward the AI that declared on them. If not, I suspect the AI would go after Bergen-Op if London, York and workers were protected. This would allow your military on the mountain to pick them off. After 2 or 3 turns, I would move in to take the Sumerian cities I wanted.

I am not sure what you mean by instantly declaring on the other 3 AIs. Do you mean get them to declare on you for war happiness?

I am not sure what you mean by instantly declaring on the other 3 AIs. Do you mean get them to declare on you for war happiness?If I can get a suicide-galley over the ocean, I would first trade for techs and see if they are backwards or not. I suspect they are. If so, I can 'safely' declare war on them, and just stay at war without anything happening. When they grow tired, I might get a town or a tech in the peace deal. Main idea is to slow down their research. If they are advanced, I stay at peace and try to trade techs across the continents.

I haven't thought much about governements yet. I suppose Monarchy is the way to go ? :hmm:

I continued playing and wasn't really planning to stop so soon (turn 89), but something happened that I don't really understand.

First an update : One turn ago I declared war on Sumer. I didn't want to wait any longer, since I fear my swords may soon become obsolete. I took Kish this turn, and at the same time discovered that Carthage was just one ocean tile away from England. :eek:
I also got Rome to ally with me against Sumer, btw.
Also important : China built the Great Library.

Here's what I don't understand : Carthago has currency, we don't. I trade philosophy to Carthago for Currency and some gold. Now Carthage and me both know Currency. I expect China to know it as well, since they have the GL, but when I go to the trading screen, I can still sell currency to them. Is this because the turn has not yet finished (and they will learn it automatically when I finish my turn), or is it because China hasn't met Carthago yet (in which case I have the option not to trade) ?

Regardless of the answer above, I can get China to ally with me against Sumer if I sell them Currency, so I'll probably trade it.

And while we're here : any advice on how to tackle research in the MA ? I'm in the unexpected position where I'm in the tech lead, and I'm doubting between researching the upper branch, for trading low-priority techs to the AI, or researching the lower branch to get to MT asap. Remember I'd like to win this one by conquest... Any advice would be welcome here.
Thanx !

Here's what I don't understand : Carthago has currency, we don't. I trade philosophy to Carthago for Currency and some gold. Now Carthage and me both know Currency. I expect China to know it as well, since they have the GL, but when I go to the trading screen, I can still sell currency to them. Is this because the turn has not yet finished (and they will learn it automatically when I finish my turn), or is it because China hasn't met Carthago yet (in which case I have the option not to trade) ?
Techs from the GL are always learned at the end of the turn. I always sell any technology they would get, even for a low price, or at the very least improve their attitude by giving it to them. If you have an embassy with China or Carthage, you should be able to see if they know each other.

So, if they don't know each other, will China still learn Currency at the end of the turn ?

Since they only know one person who knows currency, they would not learn it from the GL.

Okay, here's the continuation :
i wasn't able to continue my war against Sumer. I even had to abandon Kish and make peace (breaking an alliance with Rome and China...) to prevent worse. I was able to reclaim the horses by founding a new city where Kish was.
Meanwhile we've also met India. Contacts with the new world are no longer our monopoly though, since England crossed the gap using the influence of their Great Lighthouse.

I could use some advice here (actually, that's the idea of this game...) : I can't keep up in the tech race : another 30 turns or so to reach Monotheism, and the other civ's are racing ahead again. Should I even try to catch up ? After my attack force was stopped by Sumer, I need to rebuild and probably eliminate the last two English cities as soon as I can.

Any ideas ?

There is always the Great Library tech elevator, although some people consider this a crutch play. The idea is to let the AI run through the MA, while you concentrate on a massive military buildup. Then, ideally, when two AI reach the IA you attack the Great Library city in numbers. As long as you can hold over the IT you catch up the tech deficit in one fell swoop all the way into the IA, and there are usually trade options then as well.

It is essential that you then get steam power quickly, because rails are a great boon to your commerce and can keep you with the AI through the IA.

Yep, that's an option, but i'd like to use that only as a last resort. I don't feel that desparate yet. :)
I'll probably help the English out of their misery first, and then see how things are going.

This Deity level is really giving me a run for my money. :crazyeye:
I wasn't very confident of my position at the start of this session : with the other continent so close by, and England having the Lighthouse, this had in fact become a pangeae map, but things are turning out rather well :
390BC : declare war on England and take their last two cities on our continent, including the Lighthouse. They stay alive, and I learn later they have a city on an island somewhere far off. Peace deal gets me monarchy.
230BC : declare war on Sumer with about 15 swordsmen. Enough to capture (and raze) one border city, and disconnect their silk. Peace some time later gives me gpt and one of their cities that was under attack from China. China prompty declares war on me (130BC) and auto-razes the city.
It's now 110BC; I just got into Monarchy after 7 turns of anarchy. Still have to check production, but here's the save already.

Plan : in 4 turns, I'll have monotheism (not as first civ). with mapmaking, I'll bring Greece into the MA and then hope to trade monarchy and/or monotheism for their free tech.
After that, I have absolutely no clue. :confused:

Well, this game isn't attracting the kind of participation i had hoped for. :( Maybe the tempo is too low to get people engaged ? Or maybe it's because I'm doingrather fine anyhow (yeah, right :rolleyes: ).

In any case, I play on ! :)
I got Monotheism in 70BC and brought Greece into the MA - unfortunately they got Monotheism as well as free tech, so no trade-opportunities there. :( So then started Theology at full speed.
Meanwhile, China managed to get a couple of swords up to my turf, and they managed to take Hastings. :mad: But bad turned to good when I could retake the city in the next turn with a mounted warrior, and started my golden age. :D . China gave peace after that.
In 170AD I got Theology in the same turn as about 4 other civs. I can still trade it for engineering and republic, though. (Decide to stay in Monarchy since I don't want another 7 turn anarchy - I am right that on deity level anarchy takes longer ?)
I'm using the extra drive from the GA to strengthen my empire with temples, libraries, barracks and some defenders. I was the first to Printing Press in 290AD (in 8 turns - I'm proud of myself... :king: ). Trading then gave me Education, Feudalism, Invention, Gunpowder and Chivalry ! :eek: Since I didn't have the monopoly on contacts any more (ever since England's lighthouse), I traded those around as well.

I'm now in the tech-lead again, but probably not for long. I think Chemistry next is the best bet for research : I can now focus again on military build-up; with all the AI's paying me gpt's, that's probably a good thing (they may decide to suddenly stop their downpayments...).

I took a screenie in 290AD and only now notice I have saltpeter within my borders. :)

Oh, and did I mention already that I keep the saves of every turn ? If anyone wants to see a certain save, just let me know. For instance, I think this trading session in 290AD is quite interesting.

<I can't seem to upload the save now; I'll do it later>

And here's the visual stuff...