Having recently been bumped from a RaR game, but with it already installed, I decided on a laidback game to get acquainted with RaR. It would probably help if someone familiar with it signs up.

Map size = standard
Barbarians = roaming
Difficulty = Demigod
Civ = random
Map type = Continents

Apparantly, the barbarians are tough, but if I am to get acquainted, I can't very well play without them.

Any interest?

Roster:
ThERat
Bezhukov
dmanakho
romeothemonk
bed_head7

relaxed? on demigod?
and barbs roaming? they are a PITA in RaR IMHO
well, I got my first trial recently and I have to say, maybe it's me being not too familiar yet, but those games are tough.
I would give it a try though.

I meant laidback as in no variants. And we won't be taking the first random map. Is RaR so much harder? I figured with roaming barbarians balanced by a good start and no variants, it was sort of like standard Demigod. Which is fairly laidback, in SG play. Solo it is maybe a bit challenging, but DG for me in SGs never seems too much of a problem to take care of.

Edit: You like to start it off, don't you?

agree on SG's, we all tend to play with attention to details, different from single player games.
I would like to start it off? well. maybe wait for some more players, then we can start this. I am having a break from work for a couple of days, I could start it off if you wish. let's get more players first

No, I mean, you like to be the first in the order? Didn't you start off bed_02? I didn't mean that we would start now, just considering the roster.

The Barbarians tend to be tougher than your own units :) - Watch out for the Horses!

I'm interested but demigod is definately above my play level, but another RaR high level game to lurk in will always be useful:)

You may want to specify world types. Continents is definitely easier than anything else in RaR. Archipelago is though without a SEA Civ, and Pangea the most difficult. Same is true for unmodded games, but the differences in RaR are way bigger.
I would keep the Barbarians in the game, they are helpful; unlike unmodded, the AI has a hard time with them as well, so their starting units are occupied for some time. Without Barbs, a humilating early conquest defeat is much more likely :).

Okay, we can go for Continents then.

I'd like to make a reservation.
I will have to install RaR 1st though... but that won't take much time.

You're in.

No 4th or 5th out there?

Khm.... probably not that many people have RaR installed.
I've installed it today and played a little..
Tech tree made my eyes blurry...

That is certainly understandable. I'll post a start later tonight, after I finish a HoF attempt. Maybe that will inspire someone to join.

@bedhead
better post some starts, that might get people interested. the tech tree can make you blur, but we should just give it a try and see whether this is fun :)

Just a couple of comments:

a. Food is a bit hard to come by, but production is also very important. Settling on a hill is a good idea. Your starting 'settler' treats all terrain as road and move 2 tiles/turn. It's ok to move a couple of tiles to get some good terrain (floodplains and hills make up one of the best starts in Chiefdom, imo).

b. Grassland isn't the greatest all by itself. It can only be irrigated (but not until the middle ages), and it only gives 2 food in Chiefdom (sort of an equivalent of Despotism). Grassland irrigated with some hills or other production terrain can be good, though.

c. Dynasticism is very important. Getting out of Chiefdom and into Monarchy is a good first step. You could wait later for Democracy or Republic (a couple of techs away each), but for me, I like to switch asap.

d. The AI is much more agressive. If you settle a town close to them with no defense, chances are they will come by and declare war unprovoked. Barbarians do keep them occupied, like DocT stated.

e. Some improvements, like worker housing become obsolete in the beginning of the Middle Ages - just watch out for this.

f. Some resources like Incense, Gold, and Ivory (Elephants) are now strategic - that means they can deplete! Don't connect Ivory until you research Elephant Training if you can afford it. And don't connect more than one source of each unless it's to trade just in case they deplete.

g. Your scouts can pop barbarians from a hut if you're not expansionist, so beware (because they would then die).

Other than that, I'll keep watching. I'm in the middle of my first true RaR attempt as the Celts on Monarch and I have 50% of population and 20% of land in the middle ages. Good luck!

I've had more experience with RandR (won on Diety, with England, the best RandR civ :) )
than with SG's. I'm willing to give it a go if you'll have me...

I'd recommend an AGR civ if you haven't played RandR before.

Sure thing, we need someone with RaR experience.

After a few tries, I got a start which seems to be pretty good according to what I have heard about RaR. Any objections to playing this map?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bed03_japan.SAV


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bed03_japan.jpg

And the Japanese Unique Unit:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bed03_japan_civil.jpg

Forgot to mention one thing. Do we want Bezhukov to lead off?

yes, get him to start, then I can continue from there

Roster:
Bezhukov
ThERat
dmanakho
bed_head7
still open spot - any takers?

Lurkers comment;

That is one nice start, one move will get you a +5fpt tile and loads of hills and some mountains for later...

After a few tries, I got a start which seems to be pretty good according to what I have heard about RaR. Any objections to playing this map? It is a decent start with the flood plains. I wouldn't call it a great start. Download LK86 and look at the capitol. That is an great start.

Well, the Oasis on a FP looks pretty darn good to me!!!

:drool:

some discussion before starting would be helpful for me. I'll be able to play later tonight (around 9ish). How many turns should I play?

Well LK86 had camels on flood plain giving extra food and shields. :D

My thoughts are: with so much food, no need for quick pottery. Start on max research on masonry for Worker Housing asap (settling on hill gives 2 shields, the Oasis gives one, need one more for bonus to kick in, plus extra happy means more income). Or do we start with Masonry? Need to check.

Build Scout, Champ, Scout?

Move settler N, NE, then settle next turn if nothing else shows up, use worker to pop hut before we get a defensive unit (will cost a couple turns of work, but no big loss as we can't mine or irrigate yet anyway). With so much food, will lean toward building regular over hardy settlers.

Any other thoughts?

I'd go Scout-Scout-Worker Housing. Just make sure you switch to military once an AI unit shows up.
But as long as you have no military, you cannot get Barbs from huts...and on DG, you can get all benefits even as non-EXP Civ :).

I concur with the good Doc on this one.
If the spot is open I would be interested, but I might be a part timer. As Bed_head knows from my days on ScoutC, my time to play varies greatly.
For tech path, immeadiately try to get a 2nd teir tech if you can, otherwise beeline for dynasticism?
From there on, I have found that the goal is to quickly tech to a nice fast offensive unit, do a quick war and trim an opponent. Rinse and Repeat ad nauseum. Let the AI do the building. Humans should focus more on production boosts and Military.
RaR has turned me from an ardent builder to a rabid warmonger.

Thx Doc, sounds like a plan.

For the fruits of a serious abuse of this plan, check Moscow in the attached save.

Got all the way to Construction from huts.

:mischief:

(Huge pangaea, extended, I was the only EXP civ). Was trying to see just how much tourism one city could crank out. How'd I do?

This was the last save under 500K (how do you upload bigger files?). By the 1700s, had seven sources of tourism with over 10 commerce each and all the sci boosters.

:crazyeye:

Anyway, prolly won't be able to do quite that much this game, but would enjoy a discussion of some tourism options in the upcoming turns. OTOH, as a militaristic civ, another strategy may be preferable. Along that line, before we get the patented turn 60 "you've wasted half a trait" message from Doc, what about an early champ rush? Too many defenders on DG?

Stronlgy depends on your neighbors. If those are not MIL, I'd try it. If it turns out the Aztecs are the only Civ nearby, forget it.

OK, had a spare half hour, so decided to get started. As I said, this is my first SG, so I want to be careful. Decided to wait to pop the hut with a scout to increase chances of good things popping (and to get the worker to work faster) and this is what happened. (BTW, how do you do screen shots?)

:D

Does this make an early rush a better or worse idea? Should I go to the coast, or start another hill city with FP/river access?

Discuss. I'll be back in a few hours.

it's hard to discuss without a screen shot...

How to post Screen shots: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=55122

I would head to the coast and build on the river hill 2 spaces away from where the tribe now stands. I really like the early coastal city, as we can send out some canoes or something similar to make more contacts. With the early expansion we might be able to leverage more science and trading oppurtunities.

Coastal cities rock. Canues, well, suck. Move =1. Forget them.

How do I just show it in the text of the message, BTW?

Oh, I see. :blush:

agree to settle at coast on hill. start to build champs as well

romeo, nice to have you. Coastal hill city looks good to me, and it looks like we are off to a nice start.

If we find a weak, non-MIL neighbor, go ahead and crank out a few and we'll see what we can do.

just a question for DocT. what are the starting units for AI's at this level at RaR? same as for C3C?

My thought was settling (temp city - to be moved when Capital needs the tile, prolly around crop rotation time) on river hill S,SW of Capital to use flood plain and alternate on scouts and workers while capital builds champs and settlers. Coastal cities ain't so hot in despo, harbors are no help. I'll be continuing in about three hours, so hope to hear from Doc.

BTW, how many turns do I play?

opening is usually 20 turns, after that 10 turns each

I still prefer that coastal location for the 2nd town

just a question for DocT. what are the starting units for AI's at this level at RaR? same as for C3C?

Same numbers as usual. Be aware they all start with Tribal Guards, and the MIL ones with Champs; Aztec start with Jags.

Coastal: You are aware the ocean boni aren't visible without techs?

Jags being Horsemen (with no HP penalty) for TEN shields. Thanks alot for that one, Doc. They are in our game, though lacking a spy, we can't tell if they've started their spaceship yet.

;)

Let's hope they're not close by.

We also lack spies with the Inca, the Tibetans, the Americans, the Sioux, the Iroquois, and the Celts.

Hmmm, no seafaring civs at all. Maybe that coastal city wasn't such a bad idea. Only one sci civ. A very religious game, and also very militaristic, with a healthy helping of agricultural. I'm thinking that this does not bode well for the early rush idea. Let's see what develops.

Here's the problem with a coastal city. It will take twenty turns to grow at one pop and max at two (until we find where the boni are). Not especially useful. Doc, your thoughts? About to resume play.

I'd simply found it. Note the Tribe counts as military unit (has a defence), so you cannot pop huts as long as it is around.
Even if the city doesn't grow now, it can provide MPs.
And, Japan sees nothing but Elephants anyway.

About the Civs: Looks like culturally linked was on; that'll give you all the Americans.

Turn Log (I doubt they'll all be this detailed, but I enjoy reading others that are, and I'm still new at this :p ):

4000BC: Hill cities give 2 shields under chiefdom, so we will be a hill-dwelling people, preferably hills along this nice river. Move NE, N to settle next turn. Nothing of interest revealed – we Japanese aren’t too hot at spotting good resources.

3975 BC: Kyoto founded, worker decides to let first scout pop the hut. He heads to road the Oasis. Our workers already know how to build roads! What precocious civilization!

Scout in 4 at 2 spt (the governor is apparently the beneficiary of some periodic kickbacks, or something), set research on Masonry; it will be known by two other civs, but we can’t count on meeting them in the time we will need it. Counting on hutting it is a little bit of a long shot.

3850 BC: (see previous screenshot) Our scout prevails upon a small nearby settlement to join our fledgling band. And a hardy clan they are! Despite advice to head for the coasts, the 3 fpt floodplains beckon, and Osaka is settled on another river hill S, SW of Kyoto. All production set to scouts! We need to see the world and meet new folks. HardyClanSan our glorious scout heads down the mountain ridge to the SW.

A few turns of playing with lux rates, and then…

3700 BC: Scout #2 heading north finds he of the ridiculously cheap horsies, the Aztecs. They are up Boatbuilding. We trade them 1 gpt for 18 gold in hopes of deterring the jags, and switch citizens to the hills and production to a TG and a champ. So much for friendly huts.

3675 BC: Wait, there’s one more hut in range before the Tribal Guard comes to start intimidating potentially friendly huts, and… HardyClanSan is once again true to his name. Shinto power is strong, and an Aryan tribe begs to join the mighty Japanese. :eek: We deign even to accept those of blond hair and blue eyes, though they will certainly be quickly put to work to serve our heavenly Emperor. Who needs 6fpt Oases, when you’ve got HardyClanSan?

:D

3650 BC: Well, maybe now we can have a coastal city. The Aryan tribe scouts the coast, and finds a friendly seal lolling next a hill. This will do. Tribal guard comes in and lux goes down, citizens return to the floodplains, as the Aztec spear heads back north. Three scouts in the field. Champ next turn for Osaka.

3625 BC: Tokyo founded on west coast, popping the hut next door to give us Boatbuilding. Canoes really are possibly the most pathetic unit ever, so harbor construction begins. Seals like harbors.

3600BC: Scout pops hut in Aztec lands, unfortunately no jag-killers are released, but we get 25 gold. Bout time we got some gold from those lousy huts!

3575BC: First jag sighted in northern lands. Barb moves to defend hut in south, and scout moves away to the west without popping.

3550BC: Contact with Incas in South. We trade Rit and Boat for Masonry and 20 gold. So my choice of Masonry didn’t pan out after all. Oh well. Something had to go wrong! Kyoto switched to Worker Housing in 9. Now what to research? This is a really strange set of civs! Well, I know my neighbors will both be going whole hog for Scrape Mining, and nobody starts with Pottery, and it is a prereq for Dyn, so Pottery it is. Might want one of those granary things at some point. Hopefully our scouts can find the other techs, and some other civs.

3525BC: Incas settle next to scout.

3500BC: Oops, accidently encroach on Aztec lands. Champ built in Osaka. Well, that’s about my best start ever on RandR.

:goodjob:

Need to get a couple workers built. And get Kyoto going on some settlers. Let the harbor finish in Tokyo – it will make the Seal produce 3 fpt.

nice set of turns, :goodjob: 3 towns already. in my first RaR it took ages to get those hardyclans out. but jags next to us sounds like trouble :eek:

got it

Nice post, and what a way to start off your SG career!

When uploading saves, it helps to name them for something related to the game and then give year. I would have called the save bed03_3500BC, or something along those lines. It helps to differentiate between any other Tokugawa's of the Japanese that might be out there.

You better build a couple of units ASAP. The AI seems to calculate your strength by your unit/city count ratio; that's why you rarely get attacked when you have a small, well defended empire, even if the Military Idiot...Advisor tells you they'd outnumber you.
In RaR, I was attacked countless times after getting a free city. You should have at least one defender per city; doesn't have to be in the city IMHO.

Techs: With your collection of Americans and Celts (who's traits are pretty 'American'), I would focus on Alphabet/ Mathematics. You would be pretty safe to be first there even on Deity (Alpha has zero, and Math very little value for the AI).

Pre-Turn
getting familiar with all those things, we need more workers I think.
all things look good

IT Aztecs ask us to leave, they are polite

1.730BC
northern scout runs into bab and quickly returns
need to increase lux to 30%

IT disease hits Kyoto

2.not much

IT Kyoto hit again down to 3

4 Kyoto worker housing -> tribal guardsman

6 2 jags make a move towards Kyoto, that looks bad
I pop that hut in the south and get another tribe, now where to settle? going back towards home?
settling where we are?
decide to settle there, no point going back
trade Aztecs 3gpt for 55g to deter them from attacking us

IT they still do
1st jag attack and takes off 2/4hp from our only guardman there
2nd jag defeated flawless and guardman gets promoted to elite :)

7 one scout runs into a Bab

IT arg disease hits Kyoto again down to pop2

9 Inca know scrape mining now

IT Aztecs build a town next to Kyoto

10
we have 2 guards and one champ in Kyoto. next player can set up attack
5 turns to pottery, hopefully we can trade then.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bed33250.jpg

>lurker's comment: You better build a couple of units ASAP.

Good call as usual Doc - looks like we won't be wasting half the trait this time!

:mischief:

Let's make use of that mountain range and impale some jags/get us some slaves.

:hammer:

>You should have at least one defender per city; doesn't have to be in the city >IMHO.

There was a two turn window where Osaka was undefended (2 units for 3 towns). Jags must have set out at that point.

>Techs: With your collection of Americans and Celts (who's traits are pretty >'American'), I would focus on Alphabet/ Mathematics. You would be pretty safe >to be first there even on Deity (Alpha has zero, and Math very little value for >the AI).

I was thinking along these lines (had Alpha selected before Pottery), but figured it wouldn't hurt to squeeze Pottery in there quickly to trade for Scrape with Incas. Who knows, we might meet Tibet. After Pot, definitely Alpha.

To get a champ per turn from Kyoto: MM to get 5 pop and 9 food in the bin, then work Oasis and 3 hills (starving 1fpt). With Worker Housing will make 10spt. Use the Flood Plains to grow Osaka during these turns. When refilling Kyoto, starve Osaka. This is why I built them so close together.

dmanakho up to bat, romeo on deck, and I'm in the hole

I have it
You will have to give me a day or two. This RaR thing is certainly quite different from "vanilla" C3C

This whole RaR concept is so new for me...
I feel i should have played few cheftain game before switching to DG. :lol:
I see we are building exotic Otomo no Makuta and it has penalty hit points..
Even after reading Civopedia i couldn't understand what exactly that means. I guess the only way to learn is to wait and see how it works.

t1. 3225BC. Move worker to the hill to road
t2. 3200BC. Worker - roads hill. Kyoto champ->champ.
T3. 3175BC. Sci slider down 40% pottery in 2
T4. 31150C. Kyoto champ->champ. Sci slider down to 30%
t5. 3125BC Pottery comes. Switch to Alphabet to be compelted in 16. Tokyo harbor->worker housing
T6. 3100BC. Edo champion->harbor. Kyoto champion->champion. Volcano erupted
T7. 3075BC. Aztecs would make peace if we pay them a little, but i want to raize that city of theirs 1st
T8. 3050BC. worker finished roading hill moved to plains.
T9. 3025BC. Wow... champs rock.. we killed the only defender of Tlatelonco and champ lost a single HP. We captured city. Definetely different comparing to C3C. pop1 city would have to be raized there.

T10. 3000BC. Brave champion redlined and forced to retread Aztec Jag.
Aztecs will make peace now for either all the gold they have or one of their cities.
Resistance ended in Tletelonco.

I was not sure on build order in our cities and put them to build Asian clans...
But since i suck at RaR i will ask you guys to make a decision. Or may be DocT will lurk around and point on the right thing to do
Dumb question - what tech do we need to learn to build mines?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bed03-3000bc.JPG

I see we are building exotic Otomo no Makuta and it has penalty hit points..
Even after reading Civopedia i couldn't understand what exactly that means. I guess the only way to learn is to wait and see how it works.
Just an Archer with a HP penalty. Still a good unit for the defenisve bombard.

Sci slider down to 30%
You should abstain from this. RaR uses a 'rate cap' for the earlier Govs; for Chiefdom, it is 50%. In other words, neither of Tax/Sci/Lux is supposed to exceed 50%. Unfortunately, the Human can override the cap for taxation; it will be reset to the proper value only at start of the next turn.

We captured city. Definetely different comparing to C3C. pop1 city would have to be raized there.
Coincidence. Not specific to RaR, must have been some culture there already.

Dumb question - what tech do we need to learn to build mines?
Easy answer - Construction. About mid-ancient. And Irigation comes with Crop Rotation, about 1/4 into the Middle Ages.

Build orders: Production boosters (be aware Worker Housings obsolete with Feudalism, you may consider the more expensive Forges instead), units (note atm, only the capital can produce Vets; no Barracks available, but the Palaces have that function), Settlers (be aware only the Hardy type ones can enter Mountains/Jungle), rarely happiness. Skip Granaries, they aren't worth it when Settlers cost only one pop-point.

I've got it. Expect some more warring to continue unless peace is really profitable. :)

IBT: Jag warrior kills our exposed champion (0-1)
Turn 1: Retreat a jag.
Turn 2: pursue said Jag.
IBT: Kill a jag and get a slave. (1-1)
Turn 3: Raze Texcoco getting 21 gold. (2-1) Promote our champion to elite.
Turn 4: Kill another jag.
IBT: Champion kills 2 Champions. (3-3) We should think peace now.
Turn 5: Get peace, scrape mining and 119 gold from the Aztecs. We have iron at Kyoto.
Turn 6: Build Satsuma where I wanted the first Tribe to go.
Turn 7: Build kagoshima by the other sea. Trade pottery to Aztecs for 2 workers and 15 gold. Pottery to Inca for sailing and 85 gold.
Turn 8: Abet to writing.
I must have lost some turns. It is now turn 50.
Domestication is availible for trade. It looks like we our on our continent with the 2 others.
I think we should take it to the Inca a little and do some Oscillating warfare until we own our continent. Just a thought.
The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bed03-2750bc.SAV)

>Pottery to Inca for sailing and 85 gold.

Sweet - let's get some oars in the water ASAP! Find Tibet and Expansionist civs so we don't waste time on our way to Dynasticism.

Good turns team - one thing, no reason to build Otomo when we can get champs for half the cost. Let's use the iron to pop out a champ a turn from Kyoto (4 pop - Oasis, Iron, Hill, Plains = 8 spt + Worker Housing gets to 10) and overrun the Inca.

I agree with Bezhukov. I like the idea. I think we have 50 more turns before Champions are not worthwhile anymore.

I'll familiarize myself and play tomorrow.

Second thoughts:

We're three mil civs stuck together in a world that contains multiple AGR civs, as well as a SCI and EXP civ. Any of which could be running away on tech, especially if they're in contact with one another. Oce we get Kensai, our continent will easily bend to our will, but until then, let's play nice with our neighbors and team up on tech. This will allow us to develop Kyoto into a wonder machine for maximum tourism production.

Ideally we could set up an Oracle build to finish when we get Dynasticism so we can immediately get Bronze Working and Construction (allows workers to mine).

The sooner we clear the continent the better. Well we get a nice UU, the other guys also get nice UU's. I vote that we lay down the smack as soon as possible. At the very least we need to trim down the Inca about 3 cities.

The great thing about the Kensai is that is has an insane lifespan. It is the strongest attacker until Riflemen/Leathernecks, and the upgrade path allows it to be build until Cavs - now, would you prefer a 7.2.2 unit for 80sp, or Cuirassiers/Dragoons at 6.2.3 for 120/140sp? Surely, the move=3 is usefull, but for attacking cities, the Kensai rules until the IA.

Bottom line: Japan is the one Civ (Russia another one, btw) that doesn't have to bother with only a short window of opportunity for its UU. Much like Ottomans in unmodded.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bed03_2500BC.SAV

2750 BC (0) - Change Kagoshima to a harbor.

IT - Disease strikes Osaka.

2725 BC (1) - Consider changing to Hardy Asian Clan, as it costs less pop and could settle some worthless jungle to the south.

IT - Disease strikes Osaka again.

2700 BC (2) - Now I do switch to Hardy Asian Clan.

2625 BC (5) - Have been moving champions slowly south. Worker forge in Tokyo does nothing for production, start on Kublai transport.

2600 BC (6) - Been building Guardsmen in Kyoto, but starting a Forge. I don't know if we need it quite yet, but it never expires. I also realize harbors don't do anything for us in Chiefdom, so I change two to Kublai transports.

2575 BC (7) - Move a Kublai transport into the sea on its second move, and it won't move anymore. Huh?

2525 BC (9) - Sailing and 15g to Aztecs for Domestication. Camels pop up by Tlatelalco. Now I am not really sure what to do with the settler type unit build. Hardy Clan or regular ol' Clan? It seems like Hardy Clan is the better choice to me, even if it takes longer, because it isn't much longer and the impact on the population is smaller, and no wasted turns. But I thought I'd check.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bed03_2525BC_tlata.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bed03_2525BC_tlatb.jpg



2500 BC (10) - Not sure why I went north with the transport. Also not sure any more that harbors wouldn't have any effect, so maybe the next player can change coastal cities back to harbors. Our champions are all headed for the Inca. I am all for stealing their land now instead of waiting for Kensai.

Move a Kublai transport into the sea on its second move, and it won't move anymore. Huh?

Sea and Ocean have a movement cost of 2. Many later ships (and Curraghs) are ATAR, but the early vessels can only crawl around. Also, before you wonder: Aside from Curraghs, Long Boats are the first ships that can enter Ocean tiles at all (early ships are wheeled, and Ocean is impassable for wheeled units).

Harbors don't help in Chiefdom (except for Seals/Fishes/Shellfish, of course). But then, your harbors won't finish much before you're in Monarchy, I'd guess.

(early ships are wheeled, and Ocean is impassable for wheeled units).
Thanks for the information. I keep wondering why I couldn't even step in the ocean for a single tile.

Sea and Ocean have a movement cost of 2. Many later ships (and Curraghs) are ATAR, but the early vessels can only crawl around. Also, before you wonder: Aside from Curraghs, Long Boats are the first ships that can enter Ocean tiles at all (early ships are wheeled, and Ocean is impassable for wheeled units).

Harbors don't help in Chiefdom (except for Seals/Fishes/Shellfish, of course). But then, your harbors won't finish much before you're in Monarchy, I'd guess.

Oh, I couldn't confirm any sort of movement penalty in the -opedia. And I am glad I was right about the harbors, because I was beginning to worry that I had screwed up by switching from them. Of course, you pointed out that it might nto have been all that bad to work on them now.

Forgot to mention that Bezukhov is up, ThERat on deck.

Pre-turn:

A little LK moment here.

Why would we build a 1/2 unit for twenty shields when we could have a 2/1 w/ enslave for 10? Why push for war with Inca, then halfway through decide to build an unneeded production booster (unneeded for immediate war) in our most productive city? One that already had it’s sweet spot set up? Why is Kagoshima built away from the BG’s? Why is our only elite in the city farthest from the intended battlefield? Why build TG’s and then send none to cover the intended invading army of 4 champs?

Just wonderin…

The Champ thing and the harbor question were discussed in prior posts

2500 BC: MM Kyoto to grow in one turn. Set Osaka to WH to make five shields with only one pop if necessary (2 turn champs). Set Tlot to TG so Asian Clan will come out at same time as growth to 3 pop (need to make that Camel work – grows faster at 1 pop), and free up elite. Eventually will move city to hill. Edo to Shrine to get some cultural pressure on Inca (due in six). I’m inclined to call off the war and concentrate on filling in the land we already have. We’ll see if the Incas have other plans.

2475BC:

Incas approach Osaka (we had moved champ from Tokyo to cover). MM for max production, Osaka WH in 1, Tokyo Forge in 3, then grow. (For flexibility, if Inca attack)

IBT – Incas retreat from Osaka, but move a settler pair next to Edo! Ugh, I wish I had a TG near there – hate to waste the Shrine (in 4), but here goes…

2450BC: Ask Inca’s to leave, they say OK, but don’t, so it’s WAH. Our vet champ redlines, but takes out the Settler pair, and promotes! Elite Champ near Satsuma moves to mountain in range of reg Inca champ (can’t let him get to that space), Osaka TG moves south. Switch production in Edo to TG, wasting 6 shields. Transport heads due west from Tokyo.

IBT Inca mill about aimlessly

2425BC: Osaka making 2 turn champs, MM Kyoto for growth, still getting forge next turn. Buy worker + 110 gold from Aztec for Alpha. TG heads west from Edo with two champs toward mountain, three more to follow.

IBT: Inca clown attacks our TG near Satsuma on hill, redline, but we promote! Vet champ attacks Inca archer in Marsh, loses two HP, but promotes! Wow, I’m not used to playing MIL civs! Eagle Warrior moves onto the mountain near Quito, TG and champs fortify on hill.

2400BC: Forge completes in Kyoto, set to max growth (4 turns), making champ in, um, 4, but it will get better! Transport in north sees Aztecs still battling barbs near capital!

IBT: Eagle Warrior attacks TG, flawless promotion.

2375BC: units moving into position, attacking Quito next turn.

IBT: New source of camel near Tokyo.

:eek:

That is HUGE. We were really struggling for pop. Scratch that, its on a desert. Just another hill for now.

2350BC: first vet champ takes one hp off of TG before dying, next one wins and promotes, making a slave and autorazing Quito. Move other units toward Inca cities in south of continent.

IBT: Wow, hard to see roads in the jungle. One Eagle Warrior comes out to take out the Quito conqueror, we win on defense and promote, creating a slave. Then another comes and all is lost. Oh great, barb shows up from the tongue of continent to our far south east.

2325BC: Send champ due east from Kyoto to scout next city location. Writing comes in – we are sucking hind tit on tech – Cultivation in 11. Yuck. Embassy with Aztecs:

embassy

After much contemplation, put Kyoto on Granary, by the time the champs he can make get to the Inca, it would be too late. We need more settlers, and Kyoto is the only city that can grow with enough regularity to produce them. It will take MM (three turns of all flood plains, then two of no growth with hills, etc.), but should be able to get some sort of settler factory set up in due course. We just don’t have enough of an advantage against other MIL civs to push war at this point, or we’ll fall too far behind the others in tech. Plenty of open land to settle right now…

IBT: more Inca units approach Quito mountain, we have a TG fortified there.

2300BC: Sacrifice a scout to slow down TG on way to protect southern Inca cities. Granary in 5 in Kyoto at no growth (grow again when it comes in to fill up granary). No idea what to build in Kagoshima or Satsuma. Don’t like either city placement. Could have two coastal hill cities on either side of Satsuma (with port and major port being on a river means little). Kagoshima should be one north. How bout a dotmap, Doc? Barb threatens Edo. Move out champ to let him pillage.

IBT: Barb kills a pop point. Yuck. Hmm, TG doesn't kill scout, but heads to city. Actual AI intelligence, unprecedented!

:mischief:

Incas want peace, will give Chipotle (a not bad city, with crab and two game, but lots of marsh. They also have Cultivation.)

I’ll give it over here to let the next player make the peace decision. If we want peace, now is the time, so we can get the research going. Get the city for peace, then trade Alpha and money for Cultivation. Without Dyna, we suck pretty hard – with it, our flood plain/hill cities will be very productive. Flood plains + hills being slightly preferable to flood plains OR hills.

;)

Tlot and Tokyo are building Asian clans to get back to one pop, where their food bonuses kick in and they grow faster. We need growth wherever we can find it. The Tokyo clan can sneak into the south through the mountain range. Please do not build hardy clans from these cities - we don't have the time to wait. We can trade one pop for 20 shields, why trade 30 shields for one pop? Kyoto will be set up to build hardys if we need them to settle the marsh area.

Feel free to change harbor build, I'd rather move that city (along with Tlot to the river hill and Kago one north) once we get the continent filled, so buildings in these cities could be avoided.

A little LK moment here.

Why would we build a 1/2 unit for twenty shields when we could have a 2/1 w/ enslave for 10? Why push for war with Inca, then halfway through decide to build an unneeded production booster (unneeded for immediate war) in our most productive city? One that already had it’s sweet spot set up? Why is Kagoshima built away from the BG’s? Why is our only elite in the city farthest from the intended battlefield? Why build TG’s and then send none to cover the intended invading army of 4 champs?

Tlot and Tokyo are building Asian clans to get back to one pop, where their food bonuses kick in and they grow faster. We need growth wherever we can find it. The Tokyo clan can sneak into the south through the mountain range. Please do not build hardy clans from these cities - we don't have the time to wait. We can trade one pop for 20 shields, why trade 30 shields for one pop? Kyoto will be set up to build hardys if we need them to settle the marsh area.

Feel free to change harbor build, I'd rather move that city (along with Tlot to the river hill and Kago one north) once we get the continent filled, so buildings in these cities could be avoided.

Can't believe I forgot to switch Kyoto to +3fpt that last turn, meant to do that. The thought behind TG is based on the unmodded version, so quite probably flawed, but I forgot to check. Anyway, in Kyoto, it could build TG in 3 turns and Champs in 2, but I was thinking along the lines of upgrade path. I changed to forge because I didn't really want any more TG, or to build Champs with substantial shield waste. And the set up was never there during my turns.

Unit placement all has to do with the end of the Aztec war. And the TG hanging behind has to do with defending cities, as there were Inca units floating around and who knows in RaR if the Aztecs won't strike back. So I figured that the units we had would do what they could against the Inca, as Kyoto is our only unit producing city at this point, and then we could go back after the Aztecs.

I don't get what you mean by trading shields for pop. Hardy Clans keep the pop higher and allow higher production and commerce, plus we have a lot of jungle and marsh to settle to the south. But I am not familiar enough with RaR to make a definite decision.

got it, sicne I am off today, will play this later on

Thx for the answers. I think Kyoto got hit by disease or something, but it only needed 4 pop to produce a champ per turn (see previous post). That was the main reason to take on the Inca (we could have built like 8-10 champs quickly and overrun them).

Trading shields for pop is a reference to pop rushing. It's all great in theory to build hardy clans and save pop, be we just don't have the time to wait. Each city gets a free square that doesn't need food. Under RandR chiefdom, it's way better to have two one pop cities (especially with food bonuses) than one three pop. Think about it.

I think we only need to put one city on marsh itself, we can cover the rest of the territory with regular clans on the borders.

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/bed03_2000BC.SAV)

Pre-turn
make peace with Inca as suggested, get and 73g
trade alphabet and 70g for cultivation, we do have sugar and spices in our land. we want dynasticism fast, go for caste system in 13

1. nothing much, discover land mass across, but not a safe crossing

2. transport survives

3. nth much

4. Aztecs try to grab our settler spot, we should attack them again

5. declare and take out settler pair netting 2 slaves

6. move troops to front

7. spices are hooked up and we can reduce tax to 0%

8. 9.

10. troops are approaching Aztec cities. the western transporter has 2 champs on board as well
in the south a transport is ready to bring the settler over to that island but passage is not safe

Okay, this means dmanakho is up.

I got it, but will play probably tomorrow.
Since i still don't feel comfortable with RaR any suggestions are quite welcome. :)

Since i still don't feel comfortable with RaR any suggestions are quite welcome. I have to say that I felt a little lost during my turns as well. seems a city without food bonus is really lousy. and travel is also very limited since we can't enter the ocean

I would continue to try and stick it to the Aztecs as much as possible. Also try and get some new cities in the field and keep up in Techs if possible. Do anyting we can to get contacts and Dynasticism.

Things get much better (and more fun!) once we get Dynasticism. The biggest difference with regular civ is the three fod per pop. So in regular civ, a city with 2 pop almost always grows as fast or fast than a city with one. One RandR under Chiefdom, the opposite is true, especially in a city with a food bonus.

Consider Tokyo. At one pop it gets +2 fpt, 2spt, and 4 cpt (working the Seal). At three pop, it gets 0fpt, 3 spt, and 4cpt. So it's actually better to keep it at 1 as much as you can, building Asian Clans timed to come in with growth to 3. Each city gets a free tile that needs no food, and also helps with unit support. The more cities, the better.

Kyoto should have a granary by now, so you can work all flood plains for a couple turns to get quick growth, then switch to Hills to build a couple Hardy Clans to settle the marshland. If you want, you can let Osaka work the Flood Plains during these turns, then skim off the pop with workers to grow other cities faster. Usually all Osaka needs to work is one hill to get to 5 spt. We'll evertually move Osaka too, so don't put any more buildings there.

Cities that we'll want to move can build champs for warfare, quantity over quality.

Need to get luxes hooked up so that we can build slave markets when Incas reearch Slavery. When Dynasticism comes in, things will get very interesting...

>seems a city without food bonus is really lousy.

This is due almost entirely to the Chiefdom penalty, but also because we can't irrigate yet. Remember too that hills produce an extra shield, so even a pop one city on a hill can work a hill to make 4spt, which, with boosters, can easily get to 8. Mining isn't so far in the future either. And even lousy fishing villages can make 6 cpt. 10 of those lousy cities can still make some dough.

There is a big difference in RaR early.
In C3C despot basic grassland works fine, and only the bonus tiles suffer.

In RaR chiefdom basic grasslands suffers. This subtle difference is huge, as it pretty much kills an empire until you can revolt.

Pre-turn: Honestly. I have no idea what to do :confused:

IBT. Aztecs Jag kills our warrior.

T1. 1980BC.Switched Tlatelolco to OtomonoMakuta. Kyoto champ->Hardy clan. moving troops towards Tlaxcalca
T2, 1960BC. Castle System comes... Not sure for to research next but hear lots of dynastisism so i decided to go for Urbanization

IBT. Killed one Jag and lost one champ.

T3. 1940BC Captured Tlaxcala. Lost one champ.

IBT. Killed a Jag.

T4. 1920BC. Move troops towards Teotihuacan. Workers roading jungle
IBT. Lost boat in threacherous waters.... I am afraid to send another boat with settler to the horse island.

T5. 1900BC. Assign workers to road towards Tlaxcala. troops keep moving north

T6. 1880BC Kyoto build Hardy Clan ->champion.

T7. 1860BC. Satsuma harbor->boat. Moved bunch of worker and troops.

IBT. Killed Jag. lost CHamp.

T8. 1840BC Destroyed unspellable Aztecs city. Decease strikes Kyoto

T9. 1820C Captured Teotihuacan. Deciase continues to plague Kyoto

IBT. Lost champ to Jag

T10. Killed Jag. Moving troops towards Xochicalco.

Not quite sure what to do with Hardy clan and where would be best city location. Please feel free to critisize me for my lousy turns. I feel like i am playing totally different game...

Screenie
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bed03-1800BC.JPG

Not quite sure what to do with Hardy clan and where would be best city location. Please feel free to critisize me for my lousy turns. I feel like i am playing totally different game...
It is totally different. That is why I like it. I have to actually think with my moves, not simply play on auto-pilot.

I don't feel comfortable enough to criticize anything. The turns didn't look too bad, though I am hoping there wasn't a settler onboard the ship we lost. It wasn't clear to me. romeo is up.

I feel like i am playing totally different game... I felt the same and the minimum growth actually makes it very tough
Decease strikes Kyoto this has happened so many times now already, this is a little too much, almost no point settling at those locations, but then that;s a rare spot where a city can actually gorw if not for endless disease.The turns didn't look too bad, though I am hoping there wasn't a settler onboard the ship we lost I put that settler onboard since other locations didn't appeal to me much, I thought we could try that out. Sorry then

It isn't a big deal, but losing RaR settlers feels like a bigger deal than losing regular settlers.

No settler hasn't been lost. it was another boat that sunk..
I just wanted to check if suicidal galleys work in RaR and after boat sunk i didn't dare to move boat with settler... So i kept it 10 turns parked near the coast... Stupid i know.... :rolleyes:
i would appreciate if you guys give me more detailed instructions next time i play.

This is a complete learning experience for me as well, so the best the two of us (and ThERat too? I can't remember if this is your first experience with RaR) is learn from our collective mistakes and do better next time.

By the way, galleys (or whatever they are) can survive in the sea, as I found out by accident during my turns.

I see it and will get to it on Saturday. I will probably build on/near the sugar to give us another luxury.

Looks pretty decent. The only guidance is to think things through.

We are MIL, we can build archers (champs) for 10 shields. This means it's probably not a great idea to build them for 20. So no Otomos for us. Production boosters kick in at multiples of 4 shields. So its better to run 4 (or 8) shields for a few turns, even if no growth, then max growth with low shields for a few.

What I do on cities like Tokyo is figure out the total number of shields it will produce over the 30 turns it takes to go from pop one to pop three. Then I subtract the amount needed to build a regular clan (please do not build hardies, except in Kyoto), what's left can be used to build champs or boats. We'll develop the cities when we get dyna. The more cities, the more commerce = faster to dyna.

Disease does blow. Try taking the workers off the flood plains when it hits (work hills) to see if that helps. Once its over, work only flood plains to recover the pop as fast as possible.

I had a few moments today before an experiment, so I decided to play a bit.
IHT: Swap edo to Shrine. Swap some of our reg champion builds. Unit costs are killing us.
IBT: Aztecs wnat peace, No. Inca go barb hunting near our land. They have at least 10 spare units.
Turn 1: Watch barbs kill some inca, then inca kill the barbs. Move to threaten Aztecs.
Turn 2: Teotihuacan riots. I move units, sorry. Attack Teohauxichal? with Elite champ and we have decision time. I took the city and 16 gold too.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/A_real_decision.jpg
I would vote for rushing the Palace gardens ASAP. A champion army is pretty worthless at this juncture.
A side note. We have a ton of slaves, I will try and get them upgraded to workers. I will have to wait at least 10 hours to play again so comments are helpful.

A champion army is pretty worthless at this juncture.
Remeber a RaR army has only **2** units. The armies just plain suck until late game and the Pentagon. The Pentagon has a TECH to enable it, so simply building 3 armies isn't enough.

So far the feeling in my RaR games is to rush small wonders when possible.


I would vote for rushing the Palace gardens ASAP.
This matches my comments on a small wonder well. This early in the game and the tourism bonus will really help over time.

Actually LK, I have found that a cuirassier, cavalry, MKIV or Armor 2 man armies don't suck. The multiple attacks that an army gives transforms 2 attacks per turn to 3 or 4, and usually against relativley low defense. But I think a champ army is ridiculus, but I want a team opionion.
A Champ army could allow us to light into the Inca that much faster again.

Actually LK, I have found that a cuirassier, cavalry, MKIV or Armor 2 man armies don't suck.
Well I watched a cuirassier army get slaughters after a bad attack. I do agree the 2 unit tank armies are good. However, by then you are also getting close to the Pentagon.

I agree on the Gardens - tourism is a big source of commerce to get the full benefit from all the sci boosting wonders we'll want to build in Kyoto.

If unit costs are killing us and the Inca have 10 extra units, that means we're not killing enough Incans. ;)

Seriously - sounds like a good time to oscillate.

If we can get a prebuild ready for the wonder that dyna makes available, I like to try to get as many ancient wonders as I can in the capital for good tourism later. After around 1AD, it's no longer worth it.

I also see we're still building a Hardy Clan, and that neither the south or the northwest has been settled. What happened to the Clans I was building when I passed the game? Unit costs are kiling us because we don't have enough cities. Settle the open land - develop it when it's full.

BTW, great job on getting slaves - those really help with unit costs. One of the hidden benefits of a MIL civ. Have we joined all native workers yet?

We're planning to tone done Tank Armies to 2 units again after the Pentagon, since those are clearly overpowered. The real trick about armies is to only load Elites; since elite status means +2HP compared to Vet in RaR, a 2 Elite Elephant Rider Army e.g. has 16HP...doesn't look bad to me. Of course, the AI will always attack a yellow/red-Army - but that's the way it should be.
Armies in RaR are still powerful, but not overpowered. Rushing the better small wonders is clearly superior to anything before a Heavy Horseman Army (which is the first 4.2.2 unit; with the MilAc bonus, that one ends as 6.3.3 unit)

Since we'd do well to ignore the ancient era optional military tree and go straight for stirrup (which enables our UU - Kensai), we won't be needing armies for a while. Kensai armies will be worth it to get move 3 and attack 9, but we'll need to cover them to prevent dangerous counters.

We're planning to tone done Tank Armies to 2 units again after the Pentagon, since those are clearly overpowered. The real trick about armies is to only load Elites;

Armies will become more useless again. :(
That late in the game I found leaders starting to become useless. Now I really wonder what good they will be late game.

As for loading only elites, that kills your changes to build more armies. A definite catch-22.

We don't want Armies to be useless. They are still faster, and e.g. a Jeep Army is an insane pillager. A HH Army already rules as attacker.
The one thing we want to shut down is the fact the AI never attacks your armies. They aren't supposed to be untouchable; you need to cover them. And, since the AI does use Armies as well in RaR, I think this is something that worked out pretty well as it was intended. But Tank/Armor Armies with the Pentagon are even more overpowered as unmodded Armies; 3 units with a defence of 10+, with each having something like 30HP :eek:.
A single 3 Tank Army will ensure your victory.

Don't agree with the Elite arguement; if you use every second MGL for a wonder/horribly expensive improvement (pretty realistic), you can fill them entirely with *Elites.

Don't agree with the Elite argument; if you use every second MGL for a wonder/horribly expensive improvement (pretty realistic), you can fill them entirely with *Elites.
I don't think we will agree on this one. I currently have tanks. I am getting leaders from left over elite cavalry. I have already gotten in regular C3C an elite horseman leader during the cavalry and rifleman era attacking a stray MDI. Do I want to put obsolete elites into an army?


As for small wonder rushing, I found in CZ4 and LK86 that you run out of wonders worth rushing. I can't say on the absurd price improvement. I know some of the late game improvements have unreal costs.

Talking about the late-game improvements, like Scyscrapers. The first really expensive one is an Opera House (for a 20k approach).

Again, having to use elites is not needed for Tanks. Those have such a hefty HP bonus, it isn't worth it; the second or even third unit in it will be able to fight something with Def=2, so it'll promote for itself. But for mounted units, it's worth it.
And, it is an intended way to rebalance traits - in RaR, the usually inferior MIL, REL and EXP are helped, while AGR was toned down.

Speaking of the Opera House, I suspect it may be the main culprit in the late game AI weakness in RandR. The AI loves culture buildings, and judging from the suggestions the governor makes, the AI doesn't take into account the productive capacity of a city in considering build orders.

So half the AI cities could be tied up for thirty turns buidling Opera Houses instead of units. I've also seen them building Newspapers (!). These (relatively) useless high-shield improvements need to be modfied. BTW, given Parks, what was the thinking behind Labor Union, Seware Plant, et. al. ?

On the other hand, for the human, if your cities are developed properly, Skyscrapers and the like are not prohibitive, due to the extra shields from mountains, mined forest, and hills, as well as all the production boosters. It's the AI that suffers most.

About it being totally different, some of this also has to do with our traits. AGR civs get the extra food, even if you're not on a river. So this makes AGR civs a lot easier, which is why I suggested doing an AGR civ for folks who haven't done RandR before.

The other thing is we're neither SEA or COM, and thus don't get any commerce bonuses in our city squares or faster contact, and we're not SCI, which means no wisemen and slower research. All these mean longer in Chiefdom and more time in an unfamiliar environment.

I've never played this combination of traits myself, so we're all new at this. Just think had tough it would have been if we didn't get those cities from huts!

A lot of good points from you three, and thanks for the help in the familiarization process. Based on everything posted, rushing a small wonder certainly seems more appropiate.

IBT: Lose 2 champs to a jag warrior. I hate their blitz.
Turn 3: Not much
IBT: Urbanization comes in. Dyna in 21 turns.
Turn 4: Move around. we didn't prune the Inca enough as they take a spot I wanted.
IBT: reg champ retreates elite jag.
Turn 5: Found sugartown near Inca.
Turn 6: 2 rounds of disease make Osaka hurt. I had to go back on autosaves a few turns. An elite Tribal guardian just dissappeared!! I was watching the whole time, and he just vanished. Am replaying as true to form as possible.
IBT: Lure a jag out with a reg champ.
Turn 7: Attack Teno: Reg champ kills vet TG. Elite Champ dies to vet TG promoting him, Vet champ dies. Reg champ beats reg TG. Reg otomo loses to super TG, Elite TG kills elite Jag. Reg champ kills elite jag. Net 1 slave. Make peace with the aztecs getting mysticism, 152 gold and Tlacplan, which is renamed.
Turn 8: Give the inca the move it or lose it choice, they choose to move it.
Turn 9: Sugar is online. I have been upgrading our slave/worker force. Build Hilltown.
Turn 10: The third time of move it or lose produces the desired result of war. Build Citadel. I lost a lof of champs to an eagle warrior. Capture a handful of slaves.
The HG is a prebuild for the MoM in Kyoto. Our unit costs are back under control. We have three luxes and 3 irons. We have 14 cities, incas 7, and aztecs 2.
I left a kinda sticky situation, but we should be able to easily handle the inca counter.
Next better player (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bed03-1600.SAV)

An elite Tribal guardian just dissappeared!!
Did you hit negative cash flow with no money in the bank?
That would cause that to happn.

We had over 500 gold in the bank. It didn't matter anyway as it played out the same, other than I think the palace gardens might have been built 1 turn later.
It was really weird as I had never seen it before. I then kept really good track of all units. The elite tribal guardian was the one to kill a jag, and cover the attacking force.

The TG disappearing is strange. I'll keep my eyes on that during my turns.

One other thing - usually on high levels I make use of the huge amount of cash you rack up to buy techs from other advanced civs on the way to Dyna, I've even bought Dyna itself, though it was expensive. This was the downside to going after the Inca. I think it might have been better to wipe out the Aztecs and concentrate on settling their land while trading with the Incas until we could use Kensai to wipe them out and leader farm.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bed03_1400BC.SAV

1600 BC (0) - Things are somewhat stickified down in Inca-land.

IT - Lose a champ to an Eagle scout.

1580 BC (1) - Don't know what the plans were with the workers really.

1560 BC (2) - Moving champs south. We really need to get rid of the Incas or the Aztecs, because all of this going back and forth with only two moves on road doesn't work for me.

IT - Incas attack well defended positions (Champs fortified on mountains, TG on hills) and lose a couple archers.

1540 BC (3) - Still don't have enough to attack.

IT - A couple more archers kill themselves, and we pick up a slave.

1520 BC (4) - Promote a champ to veteran, get a slave.

IT - Lose a champ.

1500 BC (5) - Have to stay on the defense, as we don't have enough champs to take the offensive.

1480 BC (6) - Lose a champ against a barb, but disperse the camp for 25g and a worker.

IT - In an unlucky break (Vet Eagle scout attacking and beating a vet TG fortified on a hill across a river) we lose Edo.

1460 BC (7) - Retake Edo.

IT - Edo razed. I am not having any luck with RNG.

1440 BC (8) - We are in bad shape in the south. We are just being overwhelmed right now, and our units were too spread out to begin with. Make peace, giving Writing and getting 147g.

I mixed up the turns somewhere, as I think it is 9 but it is 10. I'll be honest and say I have no idea what I did or should have done here, especially with regard to workers and the war. Make it all better Bezhukov, will you?

Possible place for a suicide galley. It looks like it may not be all ocean.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bed03_1400BC_galley.jpg

Well, I guess we don't have to worry about support costs now.

:blush:

The Inca will hear from the Kensai. Oh yes. And the conversation will not be pleasant...

:evil:

As for workers, I'm thinking roads. And then some more roads. Then a few more roads.

As for native workers, I'd say join them to Tokyo and the Camel/Flood Plain city to get them from 2 (when they grow to 2 - haven't looked at the save) to 3 pop to let them build a clan.

I doubt it will be possible for us to lose this game actually, though there is likely a civ across the way who is 10-20 techs ahead of us at this point. There are lots and lots of techs in this game, and AI's tend to get bogged down in the late MA/early IA.

I did road, as that was all I could do. I am not sure I remembering noticing any native workers, though I wasn't paying any attention. Nor did I ever check F3.

By the way, Bezhukov, you are up. Just in case you didn't know. I am not good at the roster posting part.

When I was playing we only had 1 native worker. I wouldn't merge him in though as we are not paying unit costs.

>I did road, as that was all I could do.

Yeah, that was kinda my point. Kinda lame until construction.

Got the save, will see what I can do tonight.

BTW, the last Inca war was my suggestion and also my bad. Shoulda wiped the Aztecs and gotten all good and ready for dynasticism. The move 2 on roads problem is a good point. Got too freaked out about unit support costs delaying Dyna. Sorry bout that one.

No problem. As you said, not a critical error. We are still in good shape in this game, so no reason to worry.

Pre-flight: Switch Satsuma, Tlatolco, and Kagoshima to various flavors of Clans – we’ll need to move each of these cities eventually, but right now we need to get our land settled. Sugarland also switches to clan – will need to move closer to coast , or it will suck until High Explosives. Switch Citadel to Shrine to put some cultural pressure on nearby Inca cities. The Citadel city placement doesn’t make a great deal of sense, BTW. Would have been better on a hill north of Edo to significantly shorten our front.

What happened to our glorious Japanese city names? = )

1360BC: Get Dyna, revolt – woo hoo! Kyoto riots, assign scientist, but he’s still growing – Oasis now cranks 7 food :eek: . Wow, Incas already have a clan ready for Edo. Switch Sugar and Osaka to Shrine to get some more tiles into our territory (both of these cities will eventually move, but Shrines are cheap for us). Celts build HG, we switch to MoM (one thing about RandR, rarely have to worry about wasted shields, always another wonder to build) in 12. One more champ goes to garrison Citadel. Others head vaguely north for MP duty as we develop our cities/expand.

The attached image shows where permanent cities will eventually be (red splotches).

city placement

Remember that regular clans now cost three pop, and hardys two. Workers can also now chop forests.

Set research to Bronze Working in 14 on the way to Construction. Hopefully as we grow, our tech pace will pick up. Need to get all grass roaded.

IBT: Yikes, Iroquois build Sphinx, only one wonder left (other than MoM), Great Wall. Aztecs show up with Hardy Clan pair. 4 turns left on peace deal, we’ll try to deflect it.

1320BC: Kyoto grows to size seven, put on starvation diet, MoM in 7 (it’s effect will actually be very useful in this game!) Pop rush Shrine in Citadel and Sugartown.

IBT: Ugh, Sioux built Great Wall – better hope no one cascades to MoM, or we’re screwed.

1300BC: Build Embassy in Cuzco:

Inca embassy

Sign RoP to improve relations, not planning on war until Kensai. Not much happenin. Yet.

1280BC: Chipotle Shrine_> Monument. Tlatelo Hardy Clan-> Champ (can build a couple champs, then switch to regular clan to time with growth to 4 pop. If I was planning to leave this city here, I’d let it grow to 5 and develop it, but it needs to move to river hill once we get all the land settled. Note: Dot Maps are useful to get our cities placed properly.

1260BC: Suicide transport heads into the great beyond.

IBT: Inca Clan shows up in south. (it was still hiding in their city that replaced Edo at the end of my turns, do not unblock that road). transport sinks.

1240BC: Larry worker housing->shrine. Set up blockade in south to delay clan.

1220BC: Settle Yokohama on east coast. Get Shrine ASAP to put cultural pressure on Inca city - or take out Aztecs with flood of champs from Kyoto - your choice) Osaka champ->pioneer. Pop rush shrine in Nara (will grow faster with all coast tiles, culture expansion will make more coast available.)

1200BC: Second suicide sinks. Rush Shrine in Hilltown.

1180BC: Played one extra turn to get MoM. =) Once Osaka builds it’s pioneer, let Kyoto work the two flood plains to grow to full size. Once we can mine, it will have ridiculous shields. Osaka can just do the one hill, one pop thing and make five shields for cheap units. Kagoshima should just build workers (use to boost pop in slow growing cities) and/or champs until we’re ready to resettle it. Need a city on the hills south of Tokyo.

I pop rushed several shrines in corrupt cities to get territory expansions (will kick in on next set of turns), there are a few more that will be ready in the coming turns. Yokohoma’s should be rushed ASAP. We can also chop now to help builds, but it takes 20 turns. After Bronze Working comes in, build the 1/3 A/D Spears in Osaka and research Construction so we can get mining. BTW, coastal cities don’t need aqueducts (ports + major ports are better and cheaper), so no hurry to get to civil engineering. As our cities grow, our commerce situation will improve. Need to get all grassland roaded and worked now that it makes three food.

On second thought, leave Satsuma where it is. Switch it to a Hardy and settle that jungle south of the hill south of Satsuma. The hill city production bonus is nice, but now that mining is near, it won't hurt to mine the hill instead. This will let us get started on developing Satsuma. It has nice spacing with Nara as it sits. Kago and Tlatloco need to move away from deserts, however. For non-AGR civs, deserts blow.

To be clear, don't move them until we get the other land settled, just don't build buildings in them that will be wasted.

got it, will check the situation first before doing something. short term research target construction? what about philo slingshot? btw we can increase research to 60% now

war with aztecs?

Lets take the Aztecs out, but be sure that we have a force large enough to do it, and don't pull away from the Inca front to get the troops.

Yikes, did I forget to up research? :blush:

I'd really like to get Construction first, doubtful we could have gotten Philo anyway - we're likely significantly behind the other continent(s?) on tech. Though I would recommend getting Demo soonish for the trade bonus, corruption help, and ability to cash rush.

I've never had problems with WW in RandR, and with the mighty Kensai soon to be at our disposal, I don't anticipate any here.

;-)

Seeing as how we have few Wonders coming up for Kyoto to build - we might could actually build Voyage of Discovery this game - but that's a while in the future - a quick champ rush (at least ten, preferably 14ish) on the Aztec seems like the plan. Let's get that land settled fast too.

The plan on cities without food bonuses is to let them grow with grass and coast until they slow down, then work the shield squares, with the goal being multiples of four so that production boosters can kick in.

NOTICE: Remember, forest can be mined - so don't chop forests on grass. NOTICE

Pre-turn
as mentioned I up research to 60% and we can get BW in 4
see a trading possibility with Inca, give them Dyna for wheel and 179g
both have coffee, but not us

1. 1160BC
start to move champs towards front

4. 1100BC
get BW, go for construction in 12

5. 1080BC
declare on Aztecs and move in
rush a few culture buildings

IT Aztec take Yokohama :(

6. 1060BC
raze aztec town and found Shimoniseki near sugar

7. 1040BC
re-capture Yokohama

8. 1020BCnth much

IT lose 2 champs on counter to blitz

9. 1000BCnothing much, there are 2 champs inside the transport
we have to build and send more
Kyoto is building the Oracle as it would give 2 free techs
construction in 7

Finish the Aztecs off, dmanakho!

Jeez, I really messed up. Was thinking Oracle required Incense. Good we're getting it now. With mines, it should be quick.

What happened to the suggestion of waiting for 10-14 champs for war? These picemeal wars allow too much opportunity for counters. We don't have fast enough units (yet) for that.

I have it... I was up in another game plus superbowl is tonight
I will play tomorrow if you guys don't mind. :)

Pre-turn.
Switched Kagoshima to champ from monument..
According to Bezhukov's city placement map it is going to move and why wasting time on structures..

IBT: Jag killed our Champ. attacked second time and took an hp off second champ before retreating.

T1. 980BC. 2hp champ kills 1hp elite jag.

T2. 960BC. moving champs towards aztec land. Moved lux slider to 10% to avoid rioting in Kyoto

T3. 940BC. Switched Bob from Monument toForge... It has some culture already why do we need a monument there? Moving troops. Not sure if this is a good idea but i plan to settle new city within Aztecs border... Have Asian Pioneer ready to settle next turn.

T4. 920BC. Sapporo is founded.

T5. 900BC. Movin our slow champs

T6. 880BC Keep moving slow champs but ready to attack Aztec capital next turn.
Construction comes... I heard something nice about Democracy so if we go that way Philosophy has to be researched 1st.... To be ready in 13 turns. Added another MP to Kyoto lux goes down to 0.

T7. 860BC. Lost 4 champs but captured Aztec capital.

T8. 840BC. We need to heal troops... I've used almost all my army while sieging capital last turn.

T9. 820BC. worker actions

IBT. Jaguar attacks our troops and retreats

T10. 800BC Move troops into attacking positions.. Ready to siege city next turn.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bed03-800bc.JPG

Cool, olliphants. We can't do much with them yet, though. Funny how slow tech is going in this one, while it is blistering in Romeo3.

Switched Kagoshima to champ from monument I forgot that when I assigned that build, sorry
Switched Bob from Monument toForge I was putting a monument as a place holder, since it takes so long anyway. I wasn't sure what to build there.

how many turns are left on the Oracle to complete. if we get it, we will get 2 free techs, that would mean all research on democracy done would have been wasted, or am I wrong?

how many turns are left on the Oracle to complete. if we get it, we will get 2 free techs, that would mean all research on democracy done would have been wasted, or am I wrong?

Good point... I would never miss that playing PTW or C3C...
but here i feel like a total newbie.... :blush:
We have 3 turns until Oracle is completed and 9 turns until philosophy is researched. We can shutdown research as well now for 3 turns and would't loose too many turns.

We can shutdown research, but we have to reset it to 0% each time.

>but here i feel like a total newbie....

well, as far as playing a non-AGR,COM,SEA,SCI civ with limited food bonuses and contacts, and starting next to two MIL civs, one with a wicked UU, we all are.

:)

Other than the early Clans, the above features make this one of the hardest RandR games you'll find. Not that we haven't made it harder with some of our own decisions. Compare our fate, however, to the Aztecs. :lol:

The main :smoke: decisions were mine (other than some strange city placements), including the following:

1. Attacking the Inca: Notice how much gold we have. This nice gold could have bought techs on our long, slow slog to Dyna. Had there been any to buy, that is. Some of that is bad luck (we're isolated by the ocean), some our own fault.

2. Not establishing a core. We should have just moved Kago and Tlot and gotten it over with, so we could develop them. Given the amount of land that needed settled, a granary and forge in Tlot could have produced the needed settlers, allowing all the other panfully slow-growing cities to keep their pop up and develop too. The strategy I chose would have been appropriate had our situation been more urgent (say if we hadn't trimmed the Aztec so effectively).

3. Forgetting about the Oracle. With the productive capacity of Kyoto and our slow research pace, this was the perfect game for it (choosing Dyna and Philo, then Bronze with the free tech on the way to Construction) would have saved us 40ish turns of research, a major difference.

So when I ask a why question, I'm not seeking to embarass anyone, I'm actually curious about the reasoning. If it's good, I'll adopt it; if it's bad, I'll point out why; if it's non-existant, well then that's what this forum is for.

:D

Got it.
It is up after DocT6
Turn off research.
Kill off Aztecs, try and settle our territory.
Rename cities to stuff that my Midwestern mind and Tongue can pronounce.
We need someone to come up with a full Dotmap for all our territory, letting us know what we need to move and such, as well as optimal city settling locations.
I would also like to try and snag the Pyramids.

actually the fact that nobody built the Oracle means the other island can't be that advanced, isn't it? if we are able now to even get the philo slingshot means they are just as backwards.
we need to find them so get research on those techs going. we need better naval units than that one we have right now.

Hey guys, I am going to need a swap here.
Note, We have construction. MINE OUR CAPITOL!!!!!
Our workers all over God's green earth, when they could be productive.

Yes, the Pyramids are just what we need (see Inca culture)! Will let us delay the Oracle until we need it (which will be in 9 turns, so get workers down to start mining Kyoto ASAP, and rush some monuments so we can switch from Oracle to Pyramids.

I made the same brain fart on Pyramids as on Oracle. Forgot the prereqs.

The AI for some reason has difficulty building the prereq wonders, not sure why. We should have a decent shot at both.

Dot maps are attached:

Dotmap one.JPG

The fishing village on the spare forest is obviously low priority.

dotmap two.JPG

Try to take out the non-capital city first (it is nicely placed), then raze the capital

dotmap three.JPG

dotmap four.JPG

The agressive site near the Inca is to steal his Incense. Hold off here until we are strong enough to deal with a counter. We also have a decent chance to find our own source at some point. If we want to build Shangri La, would be a good time to poach it.

Can someone please remindme how to make images show up in posts? I've done it, but can't remember how.

Please change champ builds to infra - we have plenty of champs. Forges never hurt for cities that will be there a while. Once we get to Demo and get mines built, they wan't be so pathetic.

Oops, forgot we can't plant forests for a good long while. No cities on tundra. So mise well take the capital and raze Malinco. Rebuild it one the forest one square SE away from the volcano. Also the fishing village on the east coast next to the volcano is low priority, as it could get toasted.

Whatever you do, leave forests alone unless absolutely necessary - you can't replace them and they can be mined.

Check the link in this forum about uploading files. It is stickied, so it should be easy to find. That link can explain better than I can.

actually the fact that nobody built the Oracle means the other island can't be that advanced, isn't it?

Not necessarily - I've often seen the Pyramids go very late. Oracel also takes longer than it should.

>If we are able now to even get the philo slingshot means they are just as backwards.

Can't hurt to try, as we need it soon anyway.

>we need to find them so get research on those techs going. we need better naval >units than that one we have right now.

The first tech that will offer any improvement at all is Naval Spirit. It requires Dark Ages and is in the MA. The Longships it allows are the first that can enter Ocean, but they still have the Ocean movement penalty and can sink in Ocean. Not until Magnetism will we be completely free to get there.

It will be a while before that option is open.

Who's after Romeo? We have three turns until Oracle comes in - let's see if we can get 3 monuments built/rushed so we can switch to Pyramids. With mining, Oracle shouldn't take too long after that. By then we can choose CoL and Demo as our two techs (O/W Demo takes forever.) Incas might even reserach something for us in the meantime.

Oh, I forgot to say anything. I've got the save. I'll consider your suggestion. I haven't checked the save yet.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bed03_600BC.SAV

800 BC (0) - Switch one thing to Monument, rush another, another will be rushed next turn. Switch a few to workers, especially cities that will be moved.

780 BC (1) - Don't kill a thing at the Aztec capital. I have to check the civilopedia to make sure that tundra doesn't have any extra defensive bonus. It doesn't.

760 BC (2) - Capture their non-capital. Switch to Pyramids

740 BC (3) - Finally mining some hills at Kyoto.

680 BC (6) - Finally,

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bed03_680BC_aztecs.jpg

660 BC (7) -

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bed03_660BC_pyramids.jpg

620 BC (9) - Learn Philosophy, take Classical Education.

Final notes - Oracle should finish the same turn as CoL. I guess we are taking Democracy and something else.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bed03_600BC.jpg

A couple of things:
1) I can get to this around 9 PM my time tonight. If someone else can take it sooner, feel free.
2) We should really move Osaka NOW if we are going to.
3) I have been hit with WarWeariness in RaR and it really sucks bad. Think Democracy in normal C3C. I would not revolt, but that is just my personal preference.
4) Bezhukov, when I put in pictures, I hit the post reply button, upload them to the uploads server via the upload file button on the bottom of the page, and then use the insert image tag and insert the link to the picture. I haven't had that screw up on me yet.
5) If we were first to Philo, I wouldn't worry about the other civs, as they cannot be too far ahead.
6) Good job so far team, lets keep the pressure up.

A couple of things:
1) I can get to this around 9 PM my time tonight. If someone else can take it sooner, feel free.

No rush, take your time.

2) We should really move Osaka NOW if we are going to.

I thought alot about that - the problem is that we can't clear jungle until the IA. There is no decent place to move it. The hill in the middle of the jungle (using the sugar) would be decent, but you'll still only have 4 or 5 pop there. Just depends on how much Kyoto needs those flood plains that Osaka is using. Hmmm, probably a good idea to move Osaka and max out Kyoto for wonder/small wonder builds - there are a lot coming up.

3) I have been hit with WarWeariness in RaR and it really sucks bad. Think Democracy in normal C3C. I would not revolt, but that is just my personal preference.

I think the key to RandR happiness is building Bazaars, Markets, and East India, then running lux at 10%. Makes a huge difference. We are religious, so we can always switch out if WW gets too bad. But using Demo as a default gets the trade bonus and a huge improvement in corruption, which is killing us.

4) Bezhukov, when I put in pictures, I hit the post reply button, upload them to the uploads server via the upload file button on the bottom of the page, and then use the insert image tag and insert the link to the picture. I haven't had that screw up on me yet.

What do you put in the link pop-up?

5) If we were first to Philo, I wouldn't worry about the other civs, as they cannot be too far ahead.

Need Aristocracy soon - allows FP, we may have some tea that will show up. Although taking Civil Eng with Oracle and building a Water Mill in Kyoto would probably be better short term. Just need to start FP pre-build.

6) Good job so far team, lets keep the pressure up.

Yes, thanks for taking my suggestion - look forward to benefit from suggestions from the rest of the team. With the number of cities we already have, Pyramids will have a large effect.

Yes, eliminating the Aztecs should reduce tech costs slightly.

I see the workers mining a mountain near Kyoto. Can we stick to hills until we get them all done? They take less worker turns, and they will keep Kyoto growing (it can hold 15 pop).

If we're moving Osaka, let's bleed off workers to grow Kyoto, then build the settler at 3 pop.

In the image pop-up box is where I put the address to find the image, ala
www.civf anatic s.com/upl oads9/*.jpg
Spaces are included so I don't get a picture.

A note: I will be out of town from Feb 14 to Feb 21. I have to give a presentation at TMS conference in San Fran, then go to Grand Forks for Regional College Bowl Competition. I personnally cannot think of anything better than going to Grand Forks, North Dakota In February, but what the hey.
Where is a brrr smiley when you need one?

What is TMS conference? Good luck with the College Bowl.

IHT: Switch to moving Osaka.
Turn 1: Not much.
Turn 2: Sioux build the Silk road.
Turn 3: Dancing with the Inca. Found Dotmap 1 town near larry.
Turn 4: Iro build the great lighthouse. Tokyo starts prebuild for FP.
Turn 5: Not much
Turn 6: Oh Nuts. The Inca built the ORacle. The sioux built the Colossus. Swap Kyoto to Arena.
Turn 7: Mass border expansions. Preparing for another Inca war. Get Aristocrazcy and 50 gold for Philo from the Inca. Classical Ed gets us civil engineering and 150 gold. For some reason the towns will not abandon when they are size three and build a settler. Found New Osaka and Inca be gone.
Turn 8: Stuff
Turn 9: Massing the troops
Turn 10: CoL comes in, trade for weaving and 142 gold, set to math. Something really odd happened here. I demanded the Inca's only incencse and they coughed it up!! I have never seen this before. Sold all the improvements and abandoned Osaka. We make double the culture of the Inca. We are strong comaperd to them
I will leave almost everything unmoved for the next player. We still can boot the inca. Team decision time.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bed03-400BC.SAV
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Sitrep.jpg

More notes:
I upgraded to 1.03beta
TMS= The Material Society
I would get the Water Mill in Kyoto, then switch to the Academy and then THE academy.
We need to get the FP built right now, to decrease our corruption.

>I demanded the Inca's only incencse and they coughed it up!!

:lol:

Way to throw our weight around!

Might be a good time to get some temples built - we can also go for Shangri La.

Not sure about war now, though - Incas are the only ones who can help us with research until we get Naval Spirit. Now that we've covered our land, I say we keep them around. they will go for the military part of the tree before the bottom - if we stik to the bottom, we can build Epic, Shangri La, and Library and trade the techs for the top half of the tree. Once we get Kensai, Edo will be revenged easily.

Democracy would also help our corruption situation. The Inca lands are more productive in Inca hands until we get our corruption under control.

For some reason the towns will not abandon when they are size three and build a settler.
You may not have the slightest food surplus.

who is up?

I think we should research now techs that enable us to get to the other side of the world. we need contacts else we will fall drastically behind in techs

That would be Naval Spirit (at least ten techs away in the MA). That's why I'd like to keep the Inca around. Also, I vote for building the Great Library, so that when we make contact, we'll catch up in one turn. Once we get into a lower corruption govmint and build the FP, this will also help.

Hmm, I guess I'm up - somehow we got out of order. I'll play tonight.

That would be Naval Spirit isn't there a unit where we could at least attempt suicide runs? the current transport can't even enter ocean at all.That's why I'd like to keep the Inca around. Also, I vote for building the Great Library, so that when we make contact, we'll catch up in one turn completely agree with both points. Do not kill the Inca, they might be able to research for us as well. once we know the rest of the world we could , of course, get the entire Island.

Nope, all units before the Long Ship cannot enter Ocean. Doc is not a big fan of suicide seamanship.

:p

well, once the others show up we know how far we are behind then. :lol:

Sorry about the confusion over roster, all.

OK, things are looking up. Our net productive capacity doubled on my turns. FP in 10, The Academy and Democracy in 3. Yes, we could have put some hurt on Inca, but that will come in due time. Instead set up a baricade and focused on building.

Pre-flight: MM Kyoto to grow in two (we should have given him more pop long ago, and mined the flood plains!) Why in the world are we researching Math? We need Democracy badly. Switch to Demo. Switch Kyoto to Academy in 1 – we need science more than production right now. Switch several builds to courthouses, will rush when demo comes in. Changed my mind on Kagoshima – Larry gets the BG’s I thought we were missing. Sorry bout that – looks fine now, switch to worker housing.

In the notes with the dotmap, I pointed out that dotmap1 town was low priority – it only has one tile other cities don’t share! Oh well, it will do ok for now.

IBT: great, disease in Kyoto, this has got to be a record.

380BC: rush Hardy clan in Sugartown, to move it to coast where it can grow and hopefully steal Inca Gold. Finally get Tlot moved. It is now Fukushima – much better name. Are we going to win this game? Fukushima! Turn up the lux to get some we love the king days.

360BC: Kyoto grow in two, Water Mill in 7

340BC: barbs show up in north – we have nothing there.

320BC: Kyoto grows to 8, join two workers, at 40 spt, soon to be more. Mostly builder turns, so not many notes. The lux for WLTK has made a difference. Some cities went from one to three spt. I'm starving a couple cities so they can get WLTK at 5 and be at least minimally productive.

260BC: Tokyo now in WLTK, FP in 13, Kyoto making 50spt, The Academy (double sci) in 6. Rush CH in Hilltown (2 pop).

200BC: Hilltown goes from 1 spt to 3 :) barb impales himself on spear, three champs I sent up finally arrive, barb horse shows up. If you need more units, you can always build them up there. Demo allows cash rush.

Democracy and the Academy come in in three turns. Incas have researched nothing that we didn’t know already in my turns (they were probably going for the bronze tree like us, they should show up with something useful soon). The research plan I suggest is to go for the bottom of the tree next to make sure we get GL – the AI will avoid this branch, for a while at least. Our core is finally shaping up – Nara needs mines badly, send over the Kyoto crew who is about finished. Once forges finish, academies and schools will really improve our tech pace. I'm building granaries in a couple non-food bonus cities near the core so they can get to max pop quicker to work hills and forests. (i.e. they work hills/forests to make granary, then switch to growth, then back when maxed.)

Again, and sorry for the confusion – Kagoshima is fine where it is, develop it now.

progress

got it

by the way, if you want to show an image, you need to state the whole path between the IMG brackets
it would be most likely http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/progress.jpg

Thanks for the info. It actually worked one time without the path, but obviously not anymore. How does one go about finding the path, BTW?

:blush:

Some notes:

The Palace and Forbidden Palace give free barracks, the only ones we can build yet. So when Tokyo finishes the FP, would be a good place to shore up our forces. Kyoto is making so many shields, it's a waste to build units there. When he runs out of things to build, if we've learned Monastacism (I'd recommend going straight for that), that would be a good time to rush a Hardy in the city over by the Inca core (it has to be Hardy to settle on marsh) to steal the Inca incense. It is required for Shangri La. Better make sure we have a Spearman (1/3) blockade along the mountains set up for this, as it could upset the Inca. We can also sign an RoP to get some reinforements over there.

Once we get to Demo (we are religious, so short anarchy), we can turn lux down to 10% to get research up. Probably better to max research at a defecit rather than rushing buildings at this point. 10% lux can still give us some WLTK if we keep town population at five.

On the other hand, in core cities where corruption isn't so bad, building Slave Markets works great. We have enough lux resources that with 10% lux rate, the unhappiness won't bite us. Incas should show up with Slavery soon. He'll probably go up the Math-Trade tree next. Bazaars also boost happiness, so are worthwhile in the core after production boosters are built.

Hopefully Shangri-La (which will also help us keep corrupt cities in WLTK) will come in about the time we are learning Lit. The Great Library requires a library , so no pre-build is necessary. If workers run out of things to do, Tenochitlan will be a monster city some day, wouldn't hurt to get it mined. But get the core set first. We don't need to build aqueducts for coastal cities. When Seafaring comes in, Port+Major Port allows growth beyond 7, while also boosting commerce.

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/bed03-1AD.SAV)

Pre-turn
different game again, feel like a small boy, don't know what to do. lucky Bez gives great advice, will try and follow :)

1.180BC
move workers to Nara for mining

2. 160BC
nth much

IT we get democracy and the academy

3. 140BC
finish some worker action, elite champ beats barb horse and we revolt
maximise food for the anarchy turns

IT guess what, Kyoto gets hit by disease :mad:

4. 120BC
nth much

IT Kyoto down to 8 :cry:

5. 100BC
we are a democracy
what is this government good for? corruption seems pretty bad
research set to mythology since we want literature, oh 80% max so that's good

6. 80BC
nth

IT Iroquois finish Chichen Itza
check the civilpedia and realise they are an age ahead, good luck to us, we better get GL faster

7. 60BC

IT we get mythology, go for poetry in 4
for a change Tokyo hit by disease. If this wouldn't be that ridiculous, I would laugh :aargh:

8. 40BC
horse kills it, 2nd army kills 2 spears and raze Teajo, horse kills MI [29-0]

IT Tokyo down to 3, Celts finish Temple of Zeus

9. 20BC
Inca know republic, exchange it for democracy

IT oh, Tokyo down to 2, treble hit by disease is nice, isn't it :rotfl:
lost supply of incense

10. 1AD
I left it here as it is, I have some workers on top of forrest that could be chopped, since we can't work them anyway with that amount of growth.
but would like to hear team opinion
we can only hope to get GL and meet AI after that so we get a mountain of techs. let Inca flourish so long

Hmm, a full age. Imagine the flood of techs if we do get the GL. I am pretty sure there is player after you. Where, o where...nevermind, found it. dmanakho, do some stuff.

By the way, I would like to second what was just said. Without romeo and Bezukhov especially, this may have been a terrible failure, instead of whatever it is now.

What tech does Itza require? I thought it just required 3 temples or something. It does expire with Jurisprudence. We probably should have tried to get it, considering our coruption problem.

No reason to panic, we can head for library if you want, but since it needs a pre-build, we should be able to get it anyway (the tree to Shangri La is shorter). If you go for library first, build HE along the way (doesn't require an army) Join workers to Tokyo and Kyoto ASAP! we have plenty right now and they need to stay up on pop. Nara can always make more, as it is not very productive. FP will help corruption by increasing OCN, I think. Try to keep corrupt cities at 5 pop and in WLTK day (run 10% lux), should be able to get two or three shields per turn toward a courthouse. W/CH, they will be about half corrupt (see Hilltown). In the core, slave market, worker Housing, and forge are so cheap, might as well build them first. Mined hills give 4 spt, so may sacrifice some growth to get these built. Needs micromanaging.

wait for Inca to research Slavery for us. We need to stick to Monastacism/Library branch.

IIRC Chichen Izca is a very nice wonder, but it only requires 3 temples. I cannot recall offhand what Tech enables it, but we are by no means an age behind.
I would take 3 deep breaths, 2 shots of Jose Gold, and continue.
We should do as Bez suggests, and merge all native workers into kyoto first, and Tokyo Second. As Tokyo finishes FP, have it start a prebuild for Angkor Wat/shangri La. (I think those require a temple though)
Have Kyoto build the following things in this order:
Production boosters (slave market should take 1 turn)
Science boosters
Wonders especially TGL.
Remember that TGL requires an 80 shield library first.
The rest of the empire should work on filling out Bez's dotmaps, building science/culture.

Lest we forget, here are Bez's Dotmaps. Some of the cities are already moved/planted.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Dotmap_one.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/dotmap_two.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/dotmap_three.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/dotmap_four.JPG

I have it..
i will carefully study the thread messages and play...
I am up in 2 games already, so i will probably play most likely tomorrow.

I don't post much here, simply because i don't have much to suggest but i read it all and trying to learn...
Certainly big thanks to Bezhukov and Romeo and also DocT for all the tips. :goodjob:

On the dotmaps:

Kagoshima doesn't need to be moved, it's fine where it is.

The tundra cities will not be possible until the IA (City Planning allows planting forests). This means the AI also will not found cities there, however.

The spot next to the volcano near Tenoch is poorly placed, please omit it. Might make more sense to move Sapporo one tile SW to grab the sheep and iron.

The spot over by the Inca is now in Inca territory. We can still grab the Incense with a city one tile NW of that spot (requires Hardy Settler). Need to do this to build Shangri La and temples/basilicas (as we are religious, these are good things to build). Before settling this city, sign an RoP and get some more units over there to guard against sneaks/flips. Also make sure we have a barrier of 3 defense Spears across the southern mountain range. If they do attack, we can play mostly defense, as we have no 3 attack units yet - nor do the Inca.

First priority - join workers to Tokyo to get the FP built.

Once we control all our non-tundra territory, I think all this requires is the settler that was in Tenoch during my turns settling the grassland spot to the NE, founding any more cities will be low priority. Concentrate on boosting production in the cities we have.