Difficulty = Deity
Civilization = Random
Map = Pangaea, mystery climate.
Barbs = None
World Size = Standard

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe
Gozpel
Greebley
Meldor
Open slot?

I am going to offer this to the standard LK crew first. If some don't reply within 24 hours, then I will open it up to the world.

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

Sign up requirement - a previous military win on deity. Previous 5CCC experience is preferred or some other insane deity variant.

Raze Three to Dominate the World.
We start out as a typical 5CC game and build 5 cities. After the fifth one is built for every 3 cities we raze me may acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty.

Where this really gets ugly is we can't afford to cripple any AI. We need them to keep building cities while we slowly get the right to build up our empire. We need them to keep filling in the gaps while we get another city.

This one may be a little TOO insane...

We MUST win by Domination

The following tactics are PROHIBITED:

RoP Abuse Tactics - Denying resources, blocking key tiles, RoP rape, or other ways to screw-up a civ via the RoP. A scout in AI territory has an explicit RoP and is subject to this rule.

Peace Treaty abuse - If you get concessions from the AI you must wait for the 20 turns to end before declaring another war.

Resource abuse - You can't disconnect / reconnect a resource every turn for the sake of building cheap units to upgrade with excess cash.

Ship chaining exploit - you can move a ship, unload troops to another ship in the same square not using any movement, move that ship, etc. This allows you to ship an indefinite distance, and that is why I consider it an exploit.

The negative science exploit - you can run a huge deficit (-250 / turn) of negative cash with a token penalty of one lost worker / cheap building. If cash will go below zero, the research level must be dropped.

Palace Jump - You abandon the capital city to move the palace to a new location. If you want to move the palace, build a new palace.

Mass troop jumping - You can't give away a give a city to transport a large amount of troops to another landmass.

Worker baiting - You can't spread around and sacrifice workers to an oncoming attack. This is often done to avoid losing real units or cities. This takes advantage of the AI failure to prioritize targets.


Standard LK house rules:
1) Worker automation of any kind is prohibited.

2) Worker blockades are prohibited. This prevents things such as fortifying workers along the coast to stop invasions, blocking troops from going through your territory with workers, etc. Workers activity doing something along the coast is fine. The workers must be actively doing something.

3) You may not declare war on a civ if you are currently shipping cash and / or goods to the civ.

4) Even if not covered under exploits listed, please try not to use tactics that take advantage of holes in the game design.

5) Our reputation is golden - please respect it.

[Edit: Never mind I read the title - It IS a domination win]

After some thought, I think it is doable (not insane).

I am in.

[Edit2: I would mention that the win needs to be domination in the first post. Others may also get confused ]

Old Message:
Would it be even more insane to go for a domination win? Perhaps that could be the "preferred win" (i.e. we can go for another win if domination win becomes tedious).

The reason I suggest this is that otherwise it is the same/easier than a 5CC deity game.

In any case I will play.

EDIT: confirmed too.

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe (unsure)
Gozpel (confirmed)
Greebley
Meldor
Open slot?

I am going to offer this to the standard LK crew first. If some don't reply within 24 hours, then I will open it up to the world.

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Remember, we MUST win by Domination


Sign up requirement - a previous military win on deity. Previous 5CCC experience is preferred or some other insane deity variant.

I would be up for it.

What about expolits of finding a good lux or resource spot and then leaving it open to make the AI build a city so we can keep razing them? Would this be an issue? Just razing enough cities to to build another is going to leave enough room that the AI should be on constant settler build.

Also, can the third city be a capture? The rules don't allow this, but I want it to be explicit. If you want to capture a city, there have to be three razes prior to its capture, not 2 cities and the captured one.

Also, can the third city be a capture? The rules don't allow this, but I want it to be explicit. If you want to capture a city, there have to be three razes prior to its capture, not 2 cities and the captured one.
I will try rewording. 2 cities razed and captured is NOT allowed.


Raze Three to Dominate the World.
We start out as a typical 5CC game and build 5 cities. After the fifth one is built the razing requirements come in. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty.

Where this really gets ugly is we can't afford to cripple any AI. We need them to keep building cities while we slowly get the right to build up our empire. We need them to keep filling in the gaps while we get another city.


Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe (unsure)
Gozpel
Greebley (confirmed)
Meldor (confirmed)
Open slot?

I'll play.

Another thought...
So razes expire? If we raze 10 cities in one war then build 3 cities during peace, start another war, do we only have to raze 2 more for another city or do we have to raze three city just prior to settling?

Rules attempt #3. The additions are in italics.

Raze Three to Dominate the World.
We start out as a typical 5CC game and build 5 cities. After the fifth one is built the razing requirements come in. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars.

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

Where this really gets ugly is we can't afford to cripple any AI. We need them to keep building cities while we slowly get the right to build up our empire. We need them to keep filling in the gaps while we get another city.


Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe (confirmed)
Gozpel
Greebley (confirmed)
Meldor (confirmed)
Open slot?

What happens if our cities are captured or razed?

Maybe (# of cities we own - 5) * 3 <= (# of razed cities) ?

This is rules attempt #4. The additions are in italics. So much for thinking I had a simple idea...

Raze Three to Dominate the World.
We start out as a 5CC game and build 5 cities. After the fifth one is built the razing requirements come in. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars.

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we loss a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.

Where this really gets ugly is we can't afford to cripple any AI. We need them to keep building cities while we slowly get the right to build up our empire. We need them to keep filling in the gaps while we get another city.

I'm in of course!

Open slot?

I would sign up this time

Open slot?

I would sign up this time
That was in case the base crew didn't sign up. Since they all signed up, there is no open slot.


Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe (confirmed)
Gozpel (confirmed)
Greebley (confirmed)
Meldor (confirmed)


I will start this one today.

I'm in of course!

Did you receive the CD?

@ microbe - It should come today at the earliest. We had Australia Day Wednesday and really rough storms the 2 last days, so the mailservice has been hindered. I'll know in 3-4 hrs or so :) Your PM-box would be the first thing I visit.

A question regarding the remote chance of flips to us. I understand in a normal 5CC we have to rebuff the rebels. But what if we are at war with someone and one of their towns happen to flip to us? Do we just take it and raze it and add it to the count or do we rebuff that too?

I know flips won't happen, maybe 1:1000 chance or so. I just want to know how we are supposed to handle that.

I know flips won't happen, maybe 1:1000 chance or so. I just want to know how we are supposed to handle that.
If we have the right to a city accepting a flip is valid.

And if we don't have the right to another city? Do we rebuff the flip (as per the rule we can't have more than 5 cities even for a millisecond) or can we take it and raze it?
This is if we are at war with the same civ.

Sorry for being thick here, I haven't got enough coffee yet.

That was in case the base crew didn't sign up. Since they all signed up, there is no open slot. ok then, seems I will never get into one of your games :lol:

The below is rule set #5 with the addition in italics.
Raze Three to Dominate the World.
We start out as a 5CC game and build 5 cities. After the fifth one is built the razing requirements come in. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we loss a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.

4000 BC
Our random civ is Carthage. We have at least spices for a luxury as they are next to the Capitol. The initial research is on pottery.


3300 BC
The next choice is math as it will be less then 50 turns. That has the highest odds of being a Monopoly tech.


3250 BC
Our nearest neighbor is Greece with Hoplites. I ship them Masonry for Warrior Code and $3. They have already met someone as they have $20.


3050 BC
We meet the English. I ship them Masonry for Bronze Working and $10. For a brief moment we have tech parity.


2750 BC
The English workers are already cleaning up pollution from a volcano. :crazyeye:


2470 BC
We meet Portugal and simply say hello.


2430 BC
The England build Hastings first ring to our capitol skipping spots in between. I have a sneaking suspicion a resource is next to that city.


2390 BC
Utica is formed. Half of the city tiles are snow, but the other half is grassland. I simply can't resist the block of 3 furs. We now have 2 cities and 2 luxuries. :D

==========================

Summary:
The below is the next city site. I realize it includes a few tundra spots, but the cow is really helpful. We get a 4th fur. It opens up a lot of potential resources. After a better government, we will get most of the tiles in use with irrigation.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/LAK-561A.jpg


Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe (currently playing)
Gozpel (on deck)
Greebley
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Credit needed to next city: 0 of 3 required razes.
Number of extra cities to build: 0.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/LK89-2150BC.zip

preturn: nothing.

2070BC: Greece and Portugal have math. :mad: It shortens our research time to 6 turns.

I buy it with 21g+2gpt from Greece. Sell to England for Iron Working. Yep, Lee was right, Hasting has iron.

There is another source 3 tiles NE to the furs. I am thinking whether to move the settler to that spot now, or settle at the proposed dot and I decide on the former. Cattle is good, but iron is better.

Min research on Writing.

1990BC: We meet Persia and it has Writing, and England too. England must have sold Math to Persia. :(

We meet Arabia and it's up Wheel/CB but lacks Math, so we get both techs by Math+1gpt+13g. AIs are up Mysticism and HBR, and there might be a lot of trading opportunities.

I set min research on Currency.

1910BC: we found Leptis Magna and start warrior. It's not next to river, but it's got iron in range and furs after expansion.

Our next city should be somewhere NW to our capital where a warrior is scouting. Then we could prepare to take out Hasting and hopefully also Coventry and found a town probably around 2 tiles NE to Hasting.

Alternatively, we could prepare to take out the two towns now and claim both horses and iron. I just hope there are horses NW too.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/LK89-1750BC.jpg

I think we should definitely look into a war with England. If it is feasable, then getting Hastings before the iron was connected would be nice. Not sure if we could muster the forces in time though.

Microbe, Out of curiosity, why do you do min research on techs that we will want in less than 50 turns? For example, we can't afford to wait 50 turns for writing. I would go for no research or full research or research something we may wait 50 turns for like polytheism. It doesn't really hurt to put a few gold into a tech as it presumably lowers the price, but it seems like the decision to make it min is based on a "min research is good" philosophy. Is there a reason why that I am not seeing?

My current personal preference for early techs is full research, but not being afraid to use gpt if I can get a 2-fer. This keeps small money in the pot so demands take less from you. It is also due to the fact that the early techs seem to have a big mark up in cost to buy.

It is also due to the fact that the early techs seem to have a big mark up in cost to buy.
I can't prove it, but I think the reason is lack of AI contacts. We have 5 contacts and can research a tech at 6th civ prices. However, the AI we are buying from only known 3 other civs we are buying at 4th civ prices. I think that is why ancient age techs are so inflated. Government techs had a built in premium and required techs also have a premium. That is why purchasing Feudalism is almost impossible as it gets hit with the required and government premiums.


Microbe, Out of curiosity, why do you do min research on techs that we will want in less than 50 turns?
I don't want to waste our time with minimum research. We get can writing in 31 turns with research. The right to build embassies is very good. We can get Mysticism in 12 turns. IMO Gozpel should abandon this minimum research waste of time and go full research on any tech we can get in less then 50 turns.


It's not next to river, but it's got iron in range and furs after expansion.
It will NOT get the furs. The AI will settle somewhere along the yellow line and take the furs. The AI will gladly overlap your expansion zone with its own city. Hastings is a perfect example where it built a city next overlapping our second ring of the capitol.

The placement of Leptis Magna is poor. It chokes out the yellow dot city I proposed. I prefer to abandon Leptis Magna and build yellow dot and blue dot cities. This will give a good coastal city for seafaring Carthage. Getting the bonus income really helps with this small of an empire.

I agree we really wanted the iron, but blue dot would have still gotten the iron and let us build yellow dot.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/LAK-563.jpg

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe
Gozpel (currently playing)
Greebley (on deck)
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Credit needed to next city: 0 of 3 required razes.
Number of extra cities to build: 0.

I agree we really wanted the iron, but blue dot would have still gotten the iron and let us build yellow dot.

Why do we want yellow dot so early? Are we going to waste our city sites like this? Our second city is already half tundra for those furs.

I chose the site to have a balance between resources and good tiles. We cannot found a city in the tundra just for a remote possibility that AI might steal the furs, which is not a must have anyway, and we actually welcome it if we want to raze cities.

Blue dot has too many mountains. Yellow could be founded later in the game if we have enough credit. I would definitely try to found our next cities in the north or west. There are a lot of good tiles.

My current personal preference for early techs is full research, but not being afraid to use gpt if I can get a 2-fer.

If you do full research, how could you afford to do 2 fer? Unless, for example, we are planning to buy Currency anyway, then full on Currency is a good idea.

We could do 2-fer NOW, between HBR and Mysticism. But after that you go back to min research.

Min on Writing or expensive techs is a standard tactic. I am not sure I need to explain too much on this.

I admit that demands are notorious, though. It's just playstyle.

Why do we want yellow dot so early? Are we going to waste our city sites like this? Our second city is already half tundra for those furs.

I chose the site to have a balance between resources and good tiles.
We will never agree on this one. My play style is to build the cities planning for future cities. Your current location of Leptis Magna is very awkward to build another productive city southwest of.

FYI - The yellow dot city can hit around 15 shields with the cattle and a couple of grasslands irrigated. Long term this city would pretty good and a revenue powerhouse after hospitals. We aren't locked into just 5 cities this game.


If you do full research, how could you afford to do 2 fer?
I do this myself. I drop research to zero to see if I can pull of a trade. If I can't, I reset to maximum science. I prefer to keep my gold either going to research or buying. I am trying to minimize wastage to demands. I am really getting sick of building up cash to give to the AI.


Min on Writing or expensive techs is a standard tactic. I am not sure I need to explain too much on this.
That is the core issue. I no longer see minimum research as desirable. The only time it makes sense to me is impossible techs to buy early like Republic. I have done it late game on the impossible to purchase Nationalism.

Spake Greebley:
It is also due to the fact that the early techs seem to have a big mark up in cost to buy.

and replied LK:

I can't prove it, but I think the reason is lack of AI contacts. We have 5 contacts and can research a tech at 6th civ prices. However, the AI we are buying from only known 3 other civs we are buying at 4th civ prices. I think that is why ancient age techs are so inflated. Government techs had a built in premium and required techs also have a premium. That is why purchasing Feudalism is almost impossible as it gets hit with the required and government premiums.

And a fool weighs in .... :p

If you know 5 civs, you both research and buy a tech at 6th. The game keeps track that you value a tech by the number of civs you know who posess it. The value of the tech is evaluated by consideration of the valuation the buyer places upon it ... :crazyeye: ... in English: Say you know 5 civs (including your neighbor), and your neighbor knows 3 civs (including you), and that you know all the people your neighbor does. That means you know two civs he doesn't. Now say the 2 civs only you know, each know a tech, and no one else does. You can buy from one of them at 3rd civ prices. When you turn around to sell the tech to your neighbor, you are the only civ he knows that knows the tech. So you can sell to him at 2nd. The Deity science game gave a clear early example of this phenomenon (your meeting America), where you can sell a tech for a higher price than you paid for it.

As far as why it seems that techs are more expensive to buy than research: In C3C, the 0.75 modifier on cost was removed when purchasing tech. You now would pay 1 gold for each beaker that would be required to research the tech yourself, instead of 3 gold for each 4 beakers. What makes it appear more expensive on higher levels is the AI trading factor. The AI trading factor is implemented as a penalty to the human rather than a bonus to the AI. If the AI trading factor is 140%, the human must come up with 140 gold to make the AI believe it is getting 100 gold in value. Thus, you may be effectively paying 1.4 gold per beaker when you purchase. This effect seems less onerous later in the later game as the human doesn't often buy with straight cash, resources/lux/other techs are usually involved that confuse the math.

At least that's how I see it. :scan: :lol:

Monopoly techs are subject to a doubling penalty (sell for 2X remaining beaker). I believe optional techs sell for 1/2 remaining beaker cost, and gov't/Wonder/diplomatic option availability also cause multipliers > 1. (Hence Feudalism being valued at >1 gold/beaker and Nationalism >2 gold/beaker, exclusive of the monopoly status. :eek: )

@T McC - I am curious what you base this theory on. Did someone prove this one?

The only part of the above post that is speculation is how the AI Trading factor is applied. It's hard to figure out how that is implemented so that the human isn't getting hosed both ways when executing a 2-fer. I'm not sure whether only cash is effected, or hard goods/tech, or even whether the factor is a penalty to the human rather than a bonus to the AI.

If the factor is implemented as a bonus to the AI (i.e., one AI offers 80 gold, the other views it as 100 gold of value whereas the human has to come up with the full 100 gold), then that should encourage the AI's to clump together. The buyer of the tech would always benefit, hence trailing AI would catch up more easily. I think we'd agree that the opposite effect (Runaway AI) is what is actually seen. The other problem is if the factor is between AI, who gets the benefit? The seller, the buyer? They can't both benefit from the multiplier.

That makes me believe the AI trade factor is applied only to the human, at least that way it can be applied consistently, and the AI civ always benefits. What confuses me is that it is possible to do 2-fers at all. If one buys a tech with a true value of 100 gold, and has to pay 140 gold for it, then has to turn around and trade a "100 gold" tech to another AI and have it valued at only 70 gold, 2-fers should be nearly impossible or at least rather unprofitable. So there is another level of specificity here, like techs and hard goods are always assigned true value.

Should be easy enough to check, though. Ask how much a civ would sell a tech for, and figure out how many beakers you would need to spend to research it yourself. If my theory is wrong, there should be a 1-to-1 relationship. If there is a consistent 1.x-to-1 relationship, maybe the theory is correct.

The yellow dot is prime real estate with the cow and is important, but I want to build against the AI first, at least getting a site NW before they box us in.

I got it.

Pre-turn - Swap Carthage to settler and Leptis Magna to worker.

Research Writing at max possible, 60% and due in 31.

1725bc - Persia give our warrior the boot.

Portugal knows Writing too now.

1700bc - Arabs kick out our other scouting warrior.

England completes Colossus and Portugal starts SoZ.

1675bc - Again Persia gives our snooping warrior the boot and this time he lands on the other side :)

Arabs starts ToA.

Carthage settler, start another. Send the settler to the forested area NW.

England learns Writing.

1625bc - England demands 21g and lots of civs starts wonders, mainly ToA.

Our curragh meet Korea, they know HBR and we are up CB.

1600bc - Leptis Magna worker -> worker.

1575bc - Arabs completes the Oracle.

Theveste founded -> warrior. The town is close to a Greek one, but the borders will fit like a puzzle, so no overlap.

1550bc - Carthage settler -> warrior. This can be changed as the town is down to one pop, but we still need another settler fairly quick to replace Leptis Magna. The new settler goes towards yellow dot.

1525bc - Portugal completes SoZ!

1500bc - A Korean spear will meet Persia next turn, we can sell CB for their 15g.

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe
Gozpel
Greebley (currently playing)
Meldor (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Credit needed to next city: 0 of 3 required razes.
Number of extra cities to build: 0.

1550bc - Carthage settler -> warrior. This can be changed as the town is down to one pop, but we still need another settler fairly quick to replace Leptis Magna. The new settler goes towards yellow dot.

Sorry, but building yellow dot would be city #5. We will be stuck with that odd placement for awhile. We need to start razing to build anymore cities after yellow dot.

Read the rules below:


Raze Three to Dominate the World.
We start out as a 5CC game and build 5 cities. After the fifth one is built the razing requirements come in. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we loss a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.

Why did we switch to Writing? Nobody knew Currency yet and it's a rather low priority for the AI. I don't see any benefit from Writing.

Lee, I thought you wanted to abandon and replace Leptis Magna?

The placement of Leptis Magna is poor. It chokes out the yellow dot city I proposed. I prefer to abandon Leptis Magna and build yellow dot and blue dot cities.

Microbe, as you would say, it's a matter of playing style :lol: I always want Writing asap, no matter what.

Lee, I thought you wanted to abandon and replace Leptis Magna?
I very much want to. To pull it off we need to abandon and replace Leptis Magna before yellow dot. We need to do it in an order to avoid the variant rules kicking in after city #5.

Whoops, I see I am up. Didn't realize it even though it is stated clearly. :rolleyes: I will play tomorrow when I get up.

Preturn:
From the previous discussions, I am assuming that losing a city and abandoning a city are not the same thing. This adds a loop-hole though. We can simply abandon cities in danger and not lose the right to make one city since we can replace abandoned cities freely.

Looking things over, I have to agree with Microbe that I would have stuck with Currency. It is early enough in the game that a Min run on currency had a decent chance of working. I almost always favor self research but currency that early would have been an exception. Not that it matters now. We have chosen the writing course, so writing it is. Going for Currency would still be a gamble - the chance of the AI getting it is also decent as well so going for writing isn't wrong either.

We are building a Warrior in the capitol. I don't see us as having 120 gold to upgrade 2 warriors, so I switch to a Num Merc. We will want at least one. It could potentially switch to a Sword if Iron is connected in time.

Also this may be silly, but I stop the worker from connecting up our second spice. Connecting up a second resource too early can lead to a forced loss of your rep (a civ demands it and then a war causes the deal to be cancelled. Alternatively, England may demand it right before we want to attack. In any case, I feel a second spice is a bigger liability than an advantage). We should only connect up the Second spice when we have a deal in mind, IMO


IBT: Pyramids completed by Persia (capitol)

Early: Warrior spots a Zulu border. I will park my warrior and hope the border expands to make contact (or spot a boat)
Raise science to reduce the time to writing (by 15 turns)
Found our 5th town Hippo.

Mid: The borders of the Zulu city expands and our Warrior is on the spot. We can trade them Alphabet for HBR and 30 gold.
Since we have a gold buffer I raize science to 100% for a short while at least... A very short while as a demand brings our gold back down the next turn. Lower science to break even again.

Late: Build a second Num Merc. Our iron is connected so I start our first sword build
I get some gold from Korea who oddly still didn't have CB. I use it to upgrade our Vet Warrior for our first sword.

Notes:
Our builds are on a purely Military footing. I think we want to get in some early razing to get more cities. Wasn't sure Barracks was better than a temple in Theveste though.
Writing reduced by 25 turns so we will get it in 5. We have a chance of getting it before some of the other AI.

Hippo needed a Scientist for 1 turn. Remember to remove the scientist next turn when the city is connected to our Lux

Didn't make and decisions with Leptis. I didn't build any buildings in it either. My thought though is to keep it. The overlap is not so severe to justify the move, and I have a reluctance to abandon given the variant and the city loss rule.

@Greebley - You need to fix your signature. Raze&Dominate is LK89.

Didn't make and decisions with Leptis. I didn't build any buildings in it either.
We are now stuck with the awkward placement. We don't have the right to build another city. Abandon and replace isn't allowed.


From the previous discussions, I am assuming that losing a city and abandoning a city are not the same thing. This adds a loophole though. We can simply abandon cities in danger and not lose the right to make one city since we can replace abandoned cities freely.
I will change the wording to make it clearer, but we CAN'T replace abandoned cities freely. See the underlined additions. We haven't earned the right to build a new city. That is why I said the replacement of Leptis was before Yellow dot before the variant rules with razing kick in.



Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Microbe
Gozpel
Greebley
Meldor (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Credit needed to next city: 0 of 3 required razes.
Number of extra cities to build: 0.

Raze Three to Dominate the World.
The number of versions of these rules proves that even a simple idea can be hard to define clearly.

We start out as a 5CC game and build 5 cities. After the fifth one is built the razing requirements come in. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we lose a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.

If a city is abandoned we don't add 1 to the right to acquire cities. The only way we can abandon and replace a city is if we already have the right to acquire 1 city.

@Greebley
1500bc was at the end of GOZPEL'S turn. Can you post the attachment for the end of your turn.

It is in the queue after LK84

[EDIT] I downloaded the save and it is indeed the earlier version., I await the correct save...

Microbe, as you would say, it's a matter of playing style :lol: I always want Writing asap, no matter what.

Including throwing away 6 turns of min research done by the previous player?

For me, even if I do not agree with the previous player's choice but changing it would cause a penalty, I try to stick to it unless there is a much better reason than just "oops, this is not my style". If I do have a strong reason to do so, I alwalys ask it first.

Everyone has his own style, but in SG we need to accomodate the differences and find a way out, instead of vetoing previous turns and wasting research like this. In your turnlog I do not even see a single explanation.

@Greebley - still waiting for the correct save.
1500bc was at the end of GOZPEL'S turn. Can you post the attachment for the end of your turn.

So we could abandon before we had five cities, but not after? Wouldn't have guessed that one. I thought we could either abandon freely, or if we abandoned one of our original five cities we would have been limited to only four. Ah well. It means war is higher priority so we can build a 6th. Not a bad thing, we want an early war anyway.

I had to replay the final turn from the autosave. It is hopefully the same.

Note that the title of the picture is wrong. It is a 1250 BC picture.

OK, I have it again...

1250 BC BC (0)
Not much to change. I think the best one for us to go after is the English. We can hit their iron and horses. The horses would be really nice for a good first expansion city.
(I) Utica Rax->Sword

1225 BC (1)
The road to Hippo is complete and we can get rid of the scientist. This allows us to go from -1gpt to 0gpt.
(I) The Greeks start MoM

1200 BC (2)
Start irriagting towards the cow, which I assume is the object.
(I) Carthage Sword->Sword. The Persians start MoM.

1175 BC (3)
Leave the sword at the capital.
(I)Nada.

1150 BC (4)
Turn science down to 20% for writing.
(I) Writing->Code of Laws. Persians start the Hanging Gardens.

1125 BC (5)
Writing goes to the Zulu for Mystism and 20g.
Writing 8gpt and 38g goes to Arabia for Polytheism.
(I)

1100 BC (6)
Dang Korea made a deal IBT. They get Poly for Philosophy. Arabia gets Philosophy for 82g. Build an embassy with England. They have no resources and no lux connected to the capital. They do have a temple and the Colossus. They are building ToA due in 11. They are running 80% science and 20% commerce. Build and embassy with the Greeks. The also have ToA due in 12. They have iron and horses connected as well as ivory and dyes. Carthage and Utica Sword->Sword,
(I)Nada

1075 BC (7)
Movement.
(I)The Persians start Sun's.

1050 BC (8)
Nada
(I)More of the same.

1025 BC (9)
(I) CArthage Sword->Sword, Forest Chop completes Rax in Hippo->Sword

1000 BC (10)
WE are up to 5 swords and we can start deciding the first victim.

Including throwing away 6 turns of min research done by the previous player?

That was an useless attempt. I would say 1:10 in odds by getting it, and that's not good enough for me. Prepare the tar and feathers and you can roll me in it if your bet would win.

I'm sorry for taking off 6 turns of your gamble, but I DO have my reasons for Writing and I shouldn't have to type it here for the obvious reasons.

What is obvious you say?

Well, Writing gives you the opportunity to go for other techs and broadens the two-fer options.
It also gives you the right to embassies, with alliances and ROP's and more.

We will get Currency when we can afford to build markets.

We maybe won't be on the same level about this issue, but the game is not lost because of my "blunder" of over-ruling your decision. We're fine.

I didn't complain about a silly city placement, I decided to live with it. "hint"

If I wanted total conformity I would try to clone myself and play with me. I don't feel I have to ask for permission to change something in a game, at least as it doesn't break the game, and in this case I am 100% sure I did the right thing.

But I apologize if you think I just ran you over, it wasn't the intention. I just thought my way was the better way. Time will tell.

The road to Hippo is complete and we can get rid of the scientist. This allows us to go from -1gpt to 0gpt .
We were running negative this early? Ouch, not a good situation at all. We can't afford the random loss of building and a worker.

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)
Gozpel
Greebley
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Credit needed to next city: 0 of 3 required razes.
Number of extra cities to build: 0.

Raze Three to Dominate the World.
The number of versions of these rules proves that even a simple idea can be hard to define clearly.

We start out as a 5CC game and build 5 cities. After the fifth one is built the razing requirements come in. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we lose a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.

If a city is abandoned we don't add 1 to the right to acquire cities. The only way we can abandon and replace a city is if we already have the right to acquire 1 city.

1000 BC
Why are we risking demands causing lose of buildings? $7 would be a full demand from another civ. I turn research down a notch to get positive cash flow.

At this point we are committed to the odd placement of Leptis Magna, so I swap it to a temple.
(IT) Korea completes The Great Wall. I am very happy to see that wonder far from us.


925 BC
(IT) This is a wonder I didn't want close to us. The Greeks complete Temple of Artemis. We will have a culture monster next to us. England completes the Great Library.


900 BC
(IT) Greece finally kicks out the warrior trying to map their territory better.
The cascade continues as Arabia completes the Hanging Gardens.


875 BC
I swap Theveste to temple as the nearby Greek city got its second border expansion.
(IT) Persia completes the Mausoleum.
We lost an exploring ship that I accidentally left in the sea.


850 BC
(IT) It is tempting to say no, but I give $12 to Korea. Korea by itself isn't a threat, but whom would they bring it to a war?
Portugal completes the Great Lighthouse.


775 BC
(IT) The tech hole is pretty sad as Persia is building Knights Templar.

==========================

Summary:
I agree with Greebley that it is too early to connect a second luxury. I would only mine the second furs tile.

We are up to 9 swords and a merc guarding each city. I think the first war with England is very soon.


Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe (currently playing)
Gozpel (on deck)
Greebley
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Credit needed to next city: 0 of 3 required razes.
Number of extra cities to build: 0.

Raze Three to Dominate the World.
The number of versions of these rules proves that even a simple idea can be hard to define clearly.

This game is a normal game until we build out fifth city.

After the fifth one is built the variant conditions are active. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we lose a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.

If a city is abandoned we don't add 1 to the right to acquire cities. The only way we can abandon and replace a city is if we already have the right to acquire 1 city.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/LK89-750BC.zip


The below is the new city I want, and 2 of the required razes for it.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/LAK-564.jpg

Sorry I missed it. I got it and will play tomorrow night.

preturn: no change. We need 5 more swords before we could go for war. I wish we could quickly raze 3 towns..

IBT Korea and English start Sun Tzu. We'll be fighting pikes. :(

English is the 2nd advanced civ.

710BC: English starts Kights Templar. :eek: We'll face knights.

I don't think we can afford to wait.

690BC: Zulu has Map Making. We get it+9g by Math+Philosophy. We could get it by just Poly, but I want Zulu to research Construction or Currency for us.

630BC: I buy CoL by 12g to shorten one turn of research. No resell possible.

Min on Republic. Max research wouldn't do any better.

I declare on England.

I whip temple in Leptis.

610BC:

@Leeds:
vet sword 0/3 kills spear and promotes.
vet sword 4/1 loses to reg spear.
vet sword 2/2 kills spear and the town is autorazed.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK89-Leeds.jpg

@Hastings:
vet sword loses to spear.
vet sword kills spear.
vet sword kills spear.
vet sword kills archer and the town is razed with one slave.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK89-Hastings.jpg

Now what should be our next target? Oxford is closer but Coverntry has horses. But Oxford is on hills, and we'd be difficult to claim the horses. I decide to go for Oxford.

590BC: Damn it, Portugal has a settler next to the iron. Looks like our free credit. :)

Kill an English warrior.

IBT Persia builds KT.

570BC: I see an English knight, fortunately regular.

IBT the knight doesn't attack but enter Oxford. Persia gets 21g. Persia builds Sun Tzu.

550BC: Our folks do very well at Oxford: kill 1 knight, 2 spears and 1 archer and only lose one sword. We raze it and get 2 slaves.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK89-Oxford.jpg

Whack one warrior.

Note: the war has been going well. England is already willing to talk and pay Construction or Currency. Both or Republic is doubtful. All its coming forces are warriors. :lol: Let's keep pumping swords.

If we want to get Republic as concession, we should now raise sci.

At Leptis I have some swords fortified unmoved. There are 3 warriors on the mountain and I suggest we move our sword and warrior in the open into Leptis and attack those warriors next turn. I don't want to risk exposing NM to them and get a GA.

There is an English settler/spear pair coming to the first rubble. Let it settle and raze it. We have two swords waiting. :D

We have a settler going to claim a 2nd iron. But it looks like everyone has iron.

There is a Portugal settler pair around the spot we want to found. Donno why it left the iron spot.

We should try to raze Coventry.

We have a settler going to claim a 2nd iron. But it looks like everyone has iron.

There is a Portugal settler pair around the spot we want to found.
Lets hope we beat Portugal to the spot. That yellow dot with backup iron, on the river, with an irrigated deer to work the hills will be a powerhouse city. In needed, we have a Portugal war just to kill it. That spot is also a first ring city.


England was weaker then I even expected. I didn't think there cities would go THAT easy.

Remember with the nature of the variant it is to early to cripple / eliminate civs.

=========================

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe
Gozpel (currently playing)
Greebley (on deck)
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Credit needed to next city: 0 of 3 required razes.
Number of extra cities to build: 1.

Raze Three to Dominate the World.
The number of versions of these rules proves that even a simple idea can be hard to define clearly.

This game is a normal game until we build out fifth city.

After the fifth one is built the variant conditions are active. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we lose a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.

If a city is abandoned we don't add 1 to the right to acquire cities. The only way we can abandon and replace a city is if we already have the right to acquire 1 city.

There is an English settler/spear pair coming to the first rubble. Let it settle and raze it. We have two swords waiting.
This is the perfect move with this variant.


We should try to raze Coventry.
Persia is the number one civ. The Persian monster continues to haunt the LK series. We don't want to weaken England too much more, or Persia will simple eat them alive. Persia is ALREADY #1 for territory.


England is already willing to talk and pay Construction or Currency. Both or Republic is doubtful.
This is another combination available. Literature and Currency can both be gained right now.


I see a real problem that we will fail to get yellow dot. If we sign peace know we can blockade the Portuguese and Greek settlers. I don't see how we can stop all the settlers and fight England.
An important point for all future wars is to have the settler built before the war starts. This problem of claiming the land will keep happening unless we are prepared.

Gozpel needs to decide what he feels is important. Securing a 6th quality city to get us closer to fighting the big boys, or squeezing more techs from England. IMHO the city is more important and immediate peace should let us blockade until our settler arrives.

If Portugal settles there, we can declare and raze it, and if needed sign peace with England. Portugal wouldn't hurt us I think.

If Portugal settles there, we can declare and raze it, and if needed sign peace with England. Portugal wouldn't hurt us I think.
I am more worried about the Greek settler. They will get to the iron before us. This ignores if any more settlers show up. There is enough area that *2* AI cities may be built. Do we want war with Greece and Portugal for one city site?

Gozpel gets to decide and all I can do is offer advise. England is already screwed pretty badly.


Repeating the lesson learned. Don't start a war without the settler available.

Then I agree making peace with England.

Yes I should have built a settler. I was trying to start the war asap with our limited offense, so I dared not spare a sword town for settler. Who thought England was so easily gassed and we could build a town so fast? I think the timing was really important as a few turns late we might have been facing pikes instead of spears..

If we make peace we can get enough units, including from Leptis, to blockade the Greek settler.


I was trying to start the war asap with our limited offense, so I dared not spare a sword town for settler.
That is another reason I want town #6 built. Building a power base is a big part of our challange. That iron city is going to be quite nice for shields and production. The more cities we have, the easier to "spare" one for a settler.

Very interesting and nice war-mongering microbe :)

I think peace with England would be alright now, but I can't say before I open the save later today. At least we have the right to build another city now.

Got it.

Pre-turn - All is good.

530bc - We lose a warrior guarding the iron.

Kill the offending warrior and move out the NM from town.

Luxtax 20%.

490bc - England found a town in the tundra, raze it. Kill 7 units in total.

Lizzy will almost give up Republic now. I think that's wise, I see an MI now.

470bc - England lands a knight near Hippo, just in time for peace :lol:

Kill an archer and 3 warriors, we got a leader. Send him immediately to Leptis Magna and build army, only to see that I used the last sword. Erh, not really, we have a one hp elite. Load him into army and sent it back to a waiting sword, load him and kill a last warrior.

I wanted to use the army before I signed peace and this was the only way and we still have a couple more elites.

Peace with England, I give 4gpt and 45g for Republic.

Republic to Greece for Construction, Lit and 12g.
Republic to Arabs for Currency and 22g.

Revolt, 4 turns of anarchy.

450bc - Korea start Leos! :wow:

Leptis Minor founded, pinched in front of 5 different settler pairs :banana:

410bc - England start Leos too.

390bc - We are a Republic.

With zero research and 10% luxes, we're doing -1gpt. Disband a couple of reg warriors.

There are quite a few luxes for sale, but we can't afford anything. Our extra iron won't help much, all civs but Zulu got it already. But our luxes will be important as usual.

All builds are on markets and temples.

Give CoL to Zulu for silks, that only let us use a couple of taxmen instead of clowns.

370bc - Disband our scouting warrior after Korea kicks him out for the third time.

350bc - Portugal are building Sistine. The AI is in a hurry.

I think England will be our best chance for the next war, peace is up in 14 turns. That might be a good time to get our GA? If Lizzy didn't drop off that knight I might continued the war a bit, but Republic was good enough and we got in to next age at least.

Ok, I got it.

Looking at the game we have a big military and 46 gpt in unit costs. To me this means we don't want to wait long for the next war. Greece looks big and could use some trimming. My plan is to use our swords now and attack Greece. I will send a few units to take out the city to our SE and try to raze at least one more to the west. For this I need another settler, so will switch a town to one. May go for Ephesus too.

Do you all think this a good idea? If I raze Herakleia and possibly Corinth, where should our next city be?

The other civ I would attack soonish is Portugal to get the Wines. Taking out 2 Portuguese cities looks hard though so I don't want to do that until we can take the Wine city and immediately found the new one.

Will play tomorrow night to give ppl time to respond.

I like the idea and giving us the possibility to build another city soon is great. We have an army too now, so that should help. I say go for it, but beware of the green knights :)

Leptis Minor founded, pinched in front of 5 different settler pairs
:eek: 5 of them. I only saw 2 on the map at the start of the turn. That was cutting it to tight.

I think England will be our best chance for the next war; peace is up in 14 turns.
If possible I would prefer another target. I really don't want to cripple England and have Persia gobble them up and become a monster.

The other issue is we have done almost NO infrastructure work. We had better get a GA with the next war, and sign a quick peace. After that we need 20 turns of markets, aqueducts, temples, libraries, etc.

During the next war we better have the settlers ready before hand.


Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe
Gozpel
Greebley (currently playing)
Meldor (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Credit needed to next city: 1 of 3 required razes. +Tundra city raze
Number of extra cities to build: 0. -1 built Leptis Minor

Raze Three to Dominate the World.
The number of versions of these rules proves that even a simple idea can be hard to define clearly.

This game is a normal game until we build out fifth city.

After the fifth one is built the variant conditions are active. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we lose a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.

If a city is abandoned we don't add 1 to the right to acquire cities. The only way we can abandon and replace a city is if we already have the right to acquire 1 city.

I had a thought about the nature of this variant. Each city we build should try and claim 21 new tiles. The constant razing requirements makes gaining a new city difficult. To minimize the number of razes required to win; we need to maximize the number of tiles claimed by each city.


Taking out 2 Portuguese cities looks hard though...
Don't forget that they own Zeus, and I don't think they have burned up any AC yet. A stack of AC isn't something I look forward to fighting at all.


Looking at the game we have a big military and 46 GPT in unit costs.
I agree something needs to be done. With just +8 GPT at 0% science we are in a very bad tech situation. Pointy stick works best in the AA when tech costs are cheap. I don't want to depend on pointy stick research to make it through the MA. We need to be able to afford to self-research and / or buy techs.

Another way to lower GPT costs is to merge back workers. That isn't possible at this time with just 3 free workers. We could use another war to get more cheap labor.


Greece looks big and could use some trimming.
They are also the #2 culture threat, and the closest one to us. Persia is the #1 culture threat. We are downright pathetic at this time. Greece triples our culture and threatens Utica. Herakleia must go to reduce the culture threat.


If I raze Herakleia and possibly Corinth, where should our next city be?
The below map is my suggestion. I realize it is NOT on fresh water, and I don't care. Avoid cultural overlap, and a lot of overlap with one of our cities is more important to me. Think back to my first comment about limiting the number of razes.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-570.jpg

In a sense the war gains us money. I will lose units which lowers our high unit costs. I don't mind losing the units provided that we gain a city. The main worry would be losing units with no gain or loss.

Out of curiosity, how would you all go about fighting this war. Defensively at first until the Ancient Cav are gone and then go for the cities? Or attack the city the second turn to make sure we destroy it?

Out of curiosity, how would you all go about fighting this war. Defensively at first until the Ancient Cav are gone and then go for the cities?
I thought you were planning on Greece.


My point with Zeus was to stress how hard Portugal is to attack. I want to avoid Portugal until we have fast units. AC are a lot easier to deal with on the offense.

Oh, sorry. I got confused and thought Greece had the ACav. That makes it easier then. It was late when I read that (or rather didn't read it).

Greece it is. The Phalanx will be a bit of a pain, but better than ACav.

Preturn: No changes

Early: Move units into position. Greeks demand some gold but back down when I say no.

270 BC: Tell Greeks to leave and they declare war.
Army kills a Hopolite (I keep accidentally calling them Phalanx) in Hericleia. Kill a warrior in our land and net 2 slaves from a settler.

250 BC:
Kill the one MDI to show up so far.
Lose an Elite Sword to a lousy Archer.

We destroy Eretria losing one Sword (7th town #2)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK89_Town7_2.JPG

We destroy Herakleia losing two Swords; one vs a 1 hp Hopolites ( 7th Town # 3. Town can be built).
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK89_Town7_3.JPG

230 BC:
Kill a Hopolite and gain two more slaves. Army healing, some units on the move.

IBT: Some Greek troops are coming we now see 2 MDI, 1 Sword, 1 Warrior, and 1 Hopolite (not with the rest).

210 BC: Still healing and moving.

190 BC: We are now earning enough cash (with Markets and some loses) to raise science.

IBT: A Numidean Merc wins on defense. Golden Age begins.

170 BC: Attack Corinth, but our Army takes too much damage to attack again.

IBT:

150 BC: I kill a Hopolite on our Furs, losing a sword doing so.

Notes:
Science is negative, because I have never lost 87 gold on a single turn of demands. My limit is around 60 gold. I leave it to the next player to decide what the limit should be.

There are a lot of incoming units to deal with. I didn't get a chance to build many catapults yet which makes it harder.
The capitol has 20 shields and so is ideal for catapults.
Theveste and Utica both have 15-19 shields and so build swords. They need an aquaduct when we can spare a moment.

There is a settler in Theveste. We can use it if we can find a spot.

I am researching Feudalism at full because that tech costs Oodles of gold and we could really use MDI. It is 12 turns now but the science rate is unsustainable.

Getting a tech from Greece is "doubtful" - they will talk though.

We can use it if we can find a spot.
Unless we can raze Corinth we don't have a spot worth taking. I would sign peace with Greece after Corinth burns so that we can use some of the GA for buildings. I already made my city location known. It wouldn't hurt if the new city can share in the GA.


...they will talk though.
That is good news as we aren't able to handle a landing behind the lines.


I am researching Feudalism at full because that tech costs Oodles of gold and we could really use MDI.

Getting a tech from Greece is "doubtful"
Each turn of research increases the odds of getting Feudalism from Greece. That tech is almost impossible to get from the AI with being a Government tech. We are at least trying to move forward with tech.


Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Microbe
Gozpel
Greebley
Meldor (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Credit needed to next city: 3 of 3 required razes. +Eretria, +Herakleia, for a new city credit.
Number of extra cities to build: 1.

Raze Three to Dominate the World.
The number of versions of these rules proves that even a simple idea can be hard to define clearly.

This game is a normal game until we build out fifth city.

After the fifth one is built the variant conditions are active. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we lose a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.

If a city is abandoned we don't add 1 to the right to acquire cities. The only way we can abandon and replace a city is if we already have the right to acquire 1 city.

Well Lee, it could have been worse...

I ahve it...

I think we will be able to Raze Corinth, but it may take a bit. We have some cleanup to do.
Hopefully we will have about 1/2 our GA for Builds. I am guessing Meldor should be able to take out Corinth in 8 turns.

I am not worried about a landing behind our lines. We will see the boat in plenty of time to deal with it. If a boat comes from the far direction the unit will be old in which case the Num Merc will be able to handle whatever it drops.

150 BC (0)
We are doing a forest chop due this turn at Carthage, yet we are building a cat and the shields will be wasted. I swap it to a library. There are 5 MDI, 2Hops, a warrior and archer visible.
(I)More Greek units appear. The Aulu demand Lit. I give it to them as I don't want a pest war. Leptis Magna Cat->Cat, Leptis Minor Temple->Rax. The Greeks start Sistines.

130 BC (1)
We now have 7 MDI, 2 Hops, 2 archers, 2 warriors and a settler. It looks like the Greeks are going to rebuild there city. I kill only one warrior so I pull back for defense. I don't know if we have enough to take Corinth right now. Troops are coming from the south. The Freeks will give us Engineering for 15gpt, Arabia doesn't have it yet.
(I) The Greeks plop down a city to replace the old one. I wonder what resource is there. Utica Sword->Sword, Theveste Sword->Sword

110 BC (2)
Kill of 1 Hop and 3 MDI. Kill 2 Hops at Corinth but there are 2 archers underneath, so I decline farther attacks until I get more support.
(I) Lose a fortified sword to a reg archer. The archer moves out of Corinth. Carthage Library->Cat

90 BC (3)
Kill 2 more Hops at Corinth and raze the city gaining 4 workers and a cat. Still have 7 MDI, 2 LB an archer and a knight left to kill. There was a warrior and settler that appeared outside Leptis Minor so I kill it and gain 2 more slaves.
(I) We lose the sword that razed Carthage but retreat a knight at Ultica. Arabia get a free 22g.

70 BC (4)
Kill 2 knights, 4 MDI, and 1 warrior while losing 1 sword. Still have 5 MDI, 1 Knight, 2 LB, 1 archer, and 1 Hop visible. We have a Greek galley moving along the coast. I have a sword shadowing it.
(I) We retreat a knight and get an elite sword killing an MDI. The Greeks land a warrior next to Carthage

50 BC (5)
I withdraw the troops at Ultica to heal. There are still 5 Knights, 5 MDI, 3 LB, and a warrior that are visible. The army moves next to Troy to try and raze it so we can put down our next city (If I can clear the way to it).

I had a feeling it would be ugly from when I looked at the game.

Are we getting any buildings done during the GA, or just troops?

If we can't get a city in the area of Greece, we could try a city on the ruins W of Leptis Minor. Its got big overlap with Leptis, but doesn't overlap with the AI cities and brings in 8 or so new tiles with a border expansion.

Once again our culture is horrible. We want zero overlap.

[Edit: I tried a turn or two - Greece was definitely stronger than we had units for. Ah well. We could also be slogging along with no gold.]

Its got big overlap with Leptis, but doesn't overlap with the AI cities and brings in 8 or so new tiles with a border expansion.
I would prefer to delay place a city, then to get that little in new tiles. We can also raze some English cities to get a solid 21 somewhere. With the 3 razing for 1 city I don't want that much waste from a city.

I had a feeling it would be ugly from when I looked at the game.

Are we getting any buildings done during the GA, or just troops?Bilt Library in Carthage, Temple in Leptis Minor, Aqueduct in Hippo. Building Rax in Leptis Minor.

I think the press will easy up once we get the army back to rid us of units and not just raze cities. I may make peace once I raze the city and then move the settler forward if I can get there before the Greeks.

30 BC (6)
Utica is in serious doubt. Rather than lose a lot of units and make peace worth less, I kill the one knight that is exposed. I then give peace for Engineering and a worker. Engineering and 6gpt goes to Arabia for Feudalism. We start on Invention. Swap the Zulu Ploy for silks. We start on Invention, due in 21. All cities without markets are swapped to markets. Carthage a harbor, Utica a library.
(I)Not much.

10 BC (7)
Trying to move a settler in place to get another city.
(I) Nada.

10 AD (8)
Trying to beat the Greeks to the city spot.
(I) The Greeks beat us to the spot.

30 AD (9)
The Greeks beat us to the spot.
(I) The Persians finish Sistines

50 AD (10)
Nada

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)
Gozpel
Greebley
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Credit needed to next city: 1 of 3 required razes. 0 +Corinth
Number of extra cities to build: 1.

Raze Three to Dominate the World.
The number of versions of these rules proves that even a simple idea can be hard to define clearly.

This game is a normal game until we build out fifth city.

After the fifth one is built the variant conditions are active. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we lose a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.

If a city is abandoned we don't add 1 to the right to acquire cities. The only way we can abandon and replace a city is if we already have the right to acquire 1 city.

The AI fills in city spots very quickly. Maybe we should keep the settler under the army (assuming the army is moving slowly enough). That way we could get the city right away.

Something to consider at least.

The settler w3sas not with the army and I had no way of getting it there without losing it.

I would suggest (again) that our next city get us the horses at Coventry. If we want to play a variant with only slow units that is fine. but we should have had horses out of the first war with England. This was a big mistake IMHO, and even now we will face Englad with knights.

I did forget to mention in the turn log that Liz came in and requested peace renewal. So we have several turns to prepare. At this point I would have the objective of securing our UU in research and securing those horses in war. Anything else will put us in a bigger hole.

50 AD
I get a few turns of GA for buildings. I hope it is enough. We got the GA too close to the beginning of the war.

I am tempting to demand Greece leaves, but I don't feel like gambling at this time. I hope they find someone to fight and leave our territory soon.
(IT) The palace gets some pretty stone steps.
Korea is building Copernicus.


90 AD
(IT) Korea completes Leo's. The cascade causes England to complete Copernicus.


110 AD
I ship our newly connected spices to Portugal for horses. As long as we avoid another Greek war we are safe. I would like a few knights for the next war with England.
After making the trade I realize I am an idiot and forget we didn't have Chivalry.
(IT) $20 isn't worth a nuisance war. I give Korea his demand, for now.


210 AD
(IT) I hate when the ending of a GA causes a city to riot.


230 AD
I ship Greece furs and $2/turn to save 3 turns on Invention. We need to start to catch up on the tech deficit. I really want to build knights, and start on Monotheism next. I doubt we can finish gunpowder in 22 turns and trade it to Arabia. The good news is we have another potential laggard for future trading. The other reason for Monotheism is we really could use churches to help with our horrid culture rating and happiness problems.


==========================

Summary:
The next location for our city we can ALREADY build.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-576.jpg


The goal if we can get 2 razes. The exact location depends on how far we can get. The goal is NO overlap with the AI even if it overlaps white dot big time. To get the horses with cultural expansion is more important than claiming a perfect 21 tiles.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-577.jpg



This will sound familiar to Microbe. I think it is close to time for another war with England. We have 3 cities that can only build military. I still hate to weaken England, but we need a permanent source of horses. In addition, we need a larger empire to increase production. We can't even debate where to build the FP.

At 15 SPT I would let Carthage pump a few horseman. They are good for chasing down units and are pretty good at killing MDI.


Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe (currently playing)
Gozpel (on deck)
Greebley
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Credit needed to next city: 1 of 3 required razes. 1 +
Number of extra cities to build: 1.

Raze Three to Dominate the World.
The number of versions of these rules proves that even a simple idea can be hard to define clearly.

This game is a normal game until we build out fifth city.

After the fifth one is built the variant conditions are active. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we lose a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.

If a city is abandoned we don't add 1 to the right to acquire cities. The only way we can abandon and replace a city is if we already have the right to acquire 1 city.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK89-250AD.zip

I would have the objective of securing our UU in research and securing those horses in war.
:confused: We already had our GA from our UU of the merc. I don't understand this comment.


I would suggest (again) that our next city get us the horses at Coventry.
I agree 100%. My notes in the writeup were BEFORE reading your post. It works out really nice that we need 2 razes to get the city at conventry. White dot requires 1 raze to use our existing city build. Conventry requires the second raze.

The settler w3sas not with the army and I had no way of getting it there without losing it.

I would suggest (again) that our next city get us the horses at Coventry. If we want to play a variant with only slow units that is fine. but we should have had horses out of the first war with England. This was a big mistake IMHO, and even now we will face Englad with knights.

I did forget to mention in the turn log that Liz came in and requested peace renewal. So we have several turns to prepare. At this point I would have the objective of securing our UU in research and securing those horses in war. Anything else will put us in a bigger hole.

Ya, the settler not being under the Army was my fault. That is why I wanted to emphasize it. I didn't realized how quickly the Greeks would build their city. So not only does the setterl need to be built beforehand (as has been mentioned), it also has to have quick access to the site. Under the army seems to be quickest access.

For example, I think Microbe should bring two settlers along when he goes for the English cities (especially coventry) . Otherwise England or some other civ might grab it first and no horses.

Agree on concentrating on England and getting horses. The Greek war got us a tech and some Razes, so it wasn't entirely useless.

The Greek war got us a tech and some Razes, so it wasn't entirely useless.
Don't forget all that nice worker supply. We are already choking on unit cost. Not having to build more workers really helps.

Now we need bigger empire... England had better be afraid.

260AD: We need more troops to start a war, plus another settler. It would be good that we could raze 3 cities and found two towns in one shot.

310AD: We renew silks from Zulu by Currency.

320AD: declare on England.

330AD: IBT we lose an elite sword to knight.

340AD: Kill two spears and lose one MDI but raze Cambridge. Retreat another knight.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK89-340AD.jpg

Persia is at war with England and captured Coventry! :mad: We'll not have the horses.

Anyway we kill two spearmen and raze Newcastle.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK89-340AD-2.jpg

IBT England captures back Coventry. :D We lose NM and MDI to knight and MDI but kill one MDI.

350AD: move toward Coventry. There is a reg pike on top. The question is that we need to raze it before Persia captures it again.

IBT England already agrees to talk! That was quick. It agrees to give Gunpowder for 11gpt already. It must have been scared. We trade NM for a knight. Greece starts Magallan's.

An Arabia pike is next to Coventry. :hmm:

360AD: Since Coventry was just captured back I assume it's just one pike inside, so I attack across river to make sure we won't miss. It would be bad if IBT Persian knights take it over.

We actually raze it without loss (but two MDIs redlined!)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK89-360AD.jpg

Dover(English) was captured by Persia too, and it's another town was razed.

We can get both Gunpowder+Monotheism by 19g. Or we can press on. England is gassed.

Note, I haven't moved the settler. I'll leave it to Lee to decide which spot to found. One tile NE would have no overlap, but the horses would be in second ring. Or we can found on the ruins next turn.

Most units are not moved.

Sorry for having played 1 more turn, but I just wanted to raze 3 towns. :)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK89-360AD-dot.jpg

I see no reason to press on. Lets take our horses and build infra and knights and look for another likely victims (peace after settling the towns).

Persia would be best, but a hard fight. I would like to trim them though before they become a powerhouse. The recently acquired english cities will be much easier to raze now than in the future.

I will check the game for best new city location...

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe
Gozpel (currently playing)
Greebley (on deck)
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Credit needed to next city: 1 of 3 required razes. 1 + Cambridge, New Castle, Coventry
Number of extra cities to build: 1. +1 for razes, and -1 for white dot city

Raze Three to Dominate the World.
The number of versions of these rules proves that even a simple idea can be hard to define clearly.

This game is a normal game until we build out fifth city.

After the fifth one is built the variant conditions are active. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we lose a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.

If a city is abandoned we don't add 1 to the right to acquire cities. The only way we can abandon and replace a city is if we already have the right to acquire 1 city.

Sabratha should be on temple as it takes 20 shields less to complete and secure our borders. We really don't want cultural overlap with Greece.

The horse city should go at Microbe's Yellow Dot. After the borders expand the city will be safe. If possible we should partial rush toward the temple. After 1 turn we could spend $72 for a worker, swap back to temple and save a few turns. That city is too critical to lose to a flip to the Persian Monster.

We could wait for 4 turns to self-research Mono and see if it's better to take Theology than Gunpowder.

Or we could buy Mono from someone with gpt.

Do not pay gpt to England. They might not survive for 20 turns.

EDIT: time to connect our furs? Some AI has got Navigation.

I got it and I'll play this tomorrow.

Right now my server is mucking up again, so I have to grab the save later.

If I got this right we can build one city and we have 2 razes to go for next town?

Microbe, I am 98.3% sure you can owe gpt to a dying civ and not get any hit in rep when they go. It is only resources that are a problem. (the 1.7% would be if it changed between 1.15 and 1.22 but I didn't hear about it).

If I got this right we can build one city and we have 2 razes to go for next town?

Credit needed to next city: 1 of 3 required razes. 1 + Cambridge, New Castle, Coventry
Number of extra cities to build: 1. +1 for razes, and -1 for white dot city

To spell it out even easier - We have the right to replace Conventry. We need to raze 2 more cities to build after that. The question is can we can much from England, or just feed the Persian monster?

Pre-turn - Send the settler to yellow spot.

Buy Mono from Arabs for 8gpt, a little more expensive than Korea, but I rather feed the smaller civ.

Peace with Lizzy for Gunpowder and Chivalry for 29gpt.

Argh!! How many games is it now where we miss one or more resources! No saltpeter as usual, Greece got some in Ephesus. I guess we have to go for that sooner or later.

We're paying 54gpt in military support.

Start cathedrals here and there.

Only one scientist on Chemistry for now, until I sorted out our luxes. We need to connect them and get some money.

370AD - Portugal declare on England.

Rusicade founded -> temple.

Korea and Persia are Industrial!

380AD - We don't need Portugal's horses anymore and we got spices back. Of course no one can pay anything for it or they simply don't need it.

A bunch of portuguese muskets shows up S of Utica, they ar going for England so I let them wander around.

390AD - Korea start Newtons.

Xerxes demands 22g, no problems.

I give spices and WM to Arabia for 9gpt and 27g, so I can keep research at 30%. Feels like a waste, Chem in 30 turns, but no min research should happen.

I must be asleep still, I didn't see we have no embassies except for Greece and England.

Embassy with Persia for 64g, P-Polis is pop 12 and all citizens are grinning from ear to ear. They have 6 luxes and 4 wonders in the city. I would be grinning too. Smiths due in 11 turns. The city is carefully MP'ed by 10 muskets :lol:

Stuff research, I turn it off so I can establish embassies with the others too. The AI is in Industrial and we don't even have the right to sign ROP or whatever, I don't like it.

400AD - I could get Chemistry from Persia for 37gpt, 100g and furs, but our total income is just over 50gpt with no research. It's too expensive right now.

I sell the furs to Portugal for 8gpt, 11g and WM. I will reassess the Chem-deal in a couple of turns when the next fur is connected.

Embassy with Korea for 96g. Seoul is pop 12 and nothing to say except they will build Newtons in 12 turns.

410AD - Embassy with Portugal for 66g, pop 12 and they'r building Magellans, due in 10t.

420AD - Embassy with Arabs for 92g.

430AD - Our people add something to the palace for no reason at all?

Persia are taking over the world again, England is down to 4 cities.

Only Persia would trade Chemistry, I take it for 36gpt plus furs, then I sell Chem to Arabs for Theology and 7gpt.

2 techs for 600g is acceptable, even if I put us further in debt? All techs are so expensive at this stage and the only one we can do twofers with is Arabia, they already know Education. So I try to get some beakers in to Metallurgy.

440AD - Everybody is building Smiths.

450AD - Nothing.

England have 3 cities left and we created a monster in Persia again.

Unconveniently Korea have one fur themselves and seem to trade spices from Persia, so we can't get any help from them by trades. Sucks.

Our cathedrals are getting there and we can turn down luxes soon.

I have no idea how to figure this out. I made a mistake by taking Chivalry in the peace-deal with England, but then I didn't want to invest our whole treasure in Theology. Now I see it would've been better doing that and we could've gotten Education instead of the right to build knights.

And yeah, Gunpowder didn't help us either.

Only Persia would trade Chemistry, I take it for 36gpt plus furs, then I sell Chem to Arabs for Theology and 7gpt.

That is just a plain strange to go that high in the tech tree to get something that low in the tree. The bad part is we are supporting the monster.


Now I see it would've been better doing that and we could've gotten Education instead of the right to build knights.
We don't have Saltpeter. The right to build any fast unit helps. I really don't want more MDI's.

The big question is who is the next target. We need a larger empire to get better research and / or purchase rates.

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe
Gozpel
Greebley (currently playing)
Meldor (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Credit needed to next city: 1 of 3 required razes.
Number of extra cities to build: 0.

Raze Three to Dominate the World.
The number of versions of these rules proves that even a simple idea can be hard to define clearly.

This game is a normal game until we build out fifth city.

After the fifth one is built the variant conditions are active. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we lose a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.

If a city is abandoned we don't add 1 to the right to acquire cities. The only way we can abandon and replace a city is if we already have the right to acquire 1 city.

That is just a plain strange to go that high in the tech tree to get something that low in the tree. The bad part is we are supporting the monster.

Indeed, it is strange. But to pay gpt for Theology itself felt even more strange :confused: Everyone but Arabia are way ahead, so we have to hope for twofers.

Persia seem to follow us around and make a mess of our games. I just wish Korea could get fed up with them and do some damage. But I guess they come for us instead :lol: They are furious with us, for some reason.

I suppose we have to give Greece another go after we finished those darn slow cathedrals and when we have a few knights. By then I suppose Alex have cavs...

I would go after Persia next if we could get away with it.

I got it.

Preturn: Tech will be no problem for us. The GLib is in London which is Persian! All we have to do to catch up in tech is to not learn Education. Store up enough razes to keep a city and take out the relatively weakly defended London.

I am going to work on this plan.

Gozpel, I totally couldn't figure out why you thought Chivalry was a mistake. Looking at the game, I will say that Education would have been a mistake with the GLib being so relatively easy to grab. I think you chose right.

Game plan: Finish Cathedrals and prepare for a war with fast units (knights) vs Persia. I will turn off research entirely since we can get the GLib.

Actually, I won't play yet, but post this to make sure there are no serious objections. I will play tomorrow sometime after comments.

But we want to attack Persia anyway. We can do so with whatever Mil we can build in the 18 more turns of deals.

Persia will have *RIFLES* buy the time we attack. Unless you feel we can be commited to 20 turns and a dogpile on Persia with at least Korea and Portugal joining the fun I say *NO*.

I have no problem with pulling in other civs. Persia is the biggest nation and the biggest threat to us. If Persia destroyed Korea, then we would be facing a monster civ and be force to fight Infantry instead of Rifles.

If we can get London, then we would have rifles too. We need to raze two ex-english cities and capture London. We could possibly do this on the same turn we declare war. If we have rifles, Persia is not going to over-run us.

I think pulling in the other civs and doing serious damage to Persia makes the most sense.

I we attack every other civ beside Persia, because they are too strong, then we risk losing due to a run-away civ. To me that is a bigger risk than a war with Persia now.

Preturn: I think the GLib is the best way to go if we can manage it. I will build knights in any case to prepare us for an assault against someone. We don't have much in the way of good military.

Early: England destroyed.

Mid: Smiths finished by Persia. Magellan finished by Portugal. Korea finishes Newtons.

Late: Lose the Luxury we were getting from another Civ. We can't get it back (not available).

Notes:
We had to raise Lux rate to 20% due to the lost Lux.

Very quiet turns.

Knights vs. Rifles will be very difficult. If we can't get the war started shortly, it won't be worth it.
I don't want to sit at tech stuck gambling on the Great Library capture.

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Microbe
Gozpel
Greebley
Meldor (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Credit needed to next city: 1 of 3 required razes.
Number of extra cities to build: 0.

Raze Three to Dominate the World.
The number of versions of these rules proves that even a simple idea can be hard to define clearly.

This game is a normal game until we build out fifth city.

After the fifth one is built the variant conditions are active. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we lose a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.

If a city is abandoned we don't add 1 to the right to acquire cities. The only way we can abandon and replace a city is if we already have the right to acquire 1 city.

We could also attack after we get Mil Tradition with Cavalry. We may be able to do that before Persia gets infantry. (we keep researching at full to Mil Trad, then upgrade knights, we will know if we can take London in a few turns so we could even start resarch on Edu if we wanted).

Another war might be nice so that we only have to take out London and not two cities before hand. We could go after Greece and take out 5 cities to get Saltpeter for example and then hit London.

I see it and will get started tomorrow.

Not much to report. I build inra in the new cities and build knights in the others. Midturn I buy Metallurgy for Portugal and they throw in some cash, just to get a lux. We are 14 turns from MilTrad but that is at negative research.

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)
Gozpel
Greebley
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Credit needed to next city: 1 of 3 required razes.
Number of extra cities to build: 0.

Raze Three to Dominate the World.
The number of versions of these rules proves that even a simple idea can be hard to define clearly.

This game is a normal game until we build out fifth city.

After the fifth one is built the variant conditions are active. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we lose a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.

If a city is abandoned we don't add 1 to the right to acquire cities. The only way we can abandon and replace a city is if we already have the right to acquire 1 city.

My preference would be to build knights and wait for Cavalry. We then turn off research long enough to to upgrade the knights and attack Persia, keeping London and the GLib. By then the Cav will be upgraded and we can start research again. If we get the rest of the world to ally with us, I don't think this will fail. We should build some Cannon as well to handle invading Rifles.

As I have stated before, I would much prefer attacking Persia to prevent a run away civ. Attacking another civ is just making it easier for Persia to dominate.

As I have stated before, I would much prefer attacking Persia to prevent a run away civ. Attacking another civ is just making it easier for Persia to dominate.

I agree. The biggest mistake that can be made is ignoring the runaway civ. The LK series has losses for that exact reason - thing first science experiment and Iroquois. LK87 is in deep trouble because I didn't think of early dogpile vs. the runaway Germans.

I think we are following that plan. At this point we have about 10 knights but it will take several turns to get them upgraded to Cav if you want to wait that long. 1 city is building trebs (the horse city). Two cities are on Infra and the rest are building knights. By the time we get MilTrad, we shold be close to 20 knights.

650 AD
$66 is to low to me to have negative research. I swap to positive research, and find MT jumps to 18 turns. :(
I can't drop the luxury tax to 10% without coliseums or another luxury.

I just noticed a problem with the GL gambit. We have no saltpeter. Trying to save cash for upgrades, buying the saltpeter, and signing alliances will be very ugly. Persia does have rifles, so we have to wait for MT.

I give Zululand Monotheism and Engineering for Monarchy. This is in case we need a no WW government later in the game.

I ship furs to Greece for wm, $70 and $2/turn. I ship furs to Arabia for wm, $29 and $7/turn. This does let me up the science rate. Portugal has nothing to offer for furs. I have to leave us open to demands from Persia. :(
(IT) This palace gets another story.


660 AD
I just noticed that Persia has already laid down some rails. :cry:


690 AD
This issue may be decided by Persia. They are about to start a war with someone. The only question is will it be us?
(IT) We are the civ that Persia is after. The war begins to early for us. :eek:

To be continued...

Well I am glad we were prepping for war with Persia. It would be game over if we weren't. It is still going to be tough holding them off long enough to get Mil Trad though. Good luck. We may need it.

690 AD - additional information
I did forget to mention this important detail in the previous report. I give Persia furs and $24/turn and get Military Tradition and $473. I leave research off for now.

My logic was as follows: If they were attacking I got a gift. If they weren't we could use the 20 turns to prepare.

Good call. We can afford the 20 turn wait I think.

700 AD
We need allies above all. I give Portugal furs and $10/turn for a RoP and alliance vs. Persia. The RoP actually cost $5/turn more, but I need those stacks to get to our borders ASAP. The other thing is if Portugal allied with Persia it would be a guaranteed loss.
I sign an alliance with Korea for $32/turn and $5. Hopefully some Persian troops get diverted to the other side of the board.
Korea was shipping Saltpeter and Wines to Korea. That loss alone hurts Persia. :D
Our only spices are worth $15/turn and wines from Korea. I think I have an idea how to get Saltpeter now.
I give spices, $10 and $27/turn to Korea and get wines and Saltpeter. Saltpeter for $27/turn is a great deal.

15 knights are immediately upgraded. I have to leave some in Rusicade with the number of nearby cavalry.
I burned a lot of shields to get walls in Sabratha and Rusicade. If they save even one unit it will be worth it.

The bad news is we are broke with $73 and making $18/turn. The question is how long will war happiness last. I don't know if we can even afford to go back to 20% luxuries. Some knights couldn't be upgraded at this point.
(IT) We must be doing a good job as the palace gets another story.
Well our economy is greatly improved and we make $29/turn. I think that sums of the IT well.


710 AD
Kill some stray units, and redeploy to keep our cities. We aren't close to going on the offensive. There are several visible stacks coming our way that won't be pleasant to deal with.
(IT) Turn order is the big thing that saved us. Yes, it is that tight. The Portuguese stack of fast units attacked the Persian cavalry stack. Sabratha was ignored avoid what I though would be several dead cavalry.
Korea completes Shakespeare.
Portugal joins the Suffrage party.


720 AD
Play the unit shuffle again to make sure no cities fall. Now the stacks are heading toward Leptis Minor, when they were heading toward Leptis Magna.

Two Persian transports with escorts leave Altin Tepe.

I feel we even need more help now that we can afford it. I sign an MPP and RoP with Greece for $19/turn. I still don't know if this is enough. Persia is a monster. The sad thing is that we lost enough troops to afford it.
(IT) As expected, Greece declares war on Persia when a frigate bombs us.
I don't know why, but the people love our leadership and the palace gets some nice statues.
Once again Portugal does there job as several exchanges occurred near Sabratha, but we weren't attacked. The troop movements looked like a lot of Persian troops where heading toward the Portuguese city of Sagres.


730 AD
War happiness has already faded. Luxury tax is back to 20% and we make a whopping $2/turn.
(IT) The only country we couldn't bring to the party was Arabia.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-593.jpg


740 AD
I manage to clear all the units by Leptis Magna. Quite a few more are nearby.
I new territory map from Korea shows them owning Sidon. Korea is making at least some progress.
We will lose some workers near Utica. I don't have enough units to kill 3 units that landed by ship. I hope they attract the attention of Greece.
(IT) This is just nuts.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-594.jpg

Greece is useless as all troops head to try and get their Saltpeter city back.
Now Persia totally retreats from Leptis Magna.


750 AD
The landing behind our lines is now cleared out.



==========================

Summary:
Read the variant rules carefully. If we lose a city we simply can't recapture. That is acquiring a city.

This all comes down to if we can raze 2 cities, and then capture London. If we don't I don't think we get a second chance.

CRITICAL - Don't move the sword army on the horses by Rusicade. This is the ONLY thing stopping pillaging the horses, and blocking the easy route for Persia to get to us.
If we move that army Rusicade will fall and we would lose the horses.

Our economy is on the verge of collapse. We only make +1 a turn with a taxman.

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe (currently playing)
No pressure at all for him. ;)

Gozpel (on deck)
Greebley
Meldor

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
Credit needed to next city: 1 of 3 required razes.
Number of extra cities to build: 0.

Raze Three to Dominate the World.
The number of versions of these rules proves that even a simple idea can be hard to define clearly.

This game is a normal game until we build out fifth city.

After the fifth one is built the variant conditions are active. After we raze 3 cities, then we have the credit to acquire another one. That additional city can be through any method including from a peace treaty. The razed city credits extend between wars. We may not exceed this count for even a millisecond

The right to acquire a city doesn't expire. If we have razed 6 cities, and haven't added anymore we can acquire 2 more.

If we lose a city the razed count goes back to zero and we forfeit the right to acquire 1 city. If we had the right to acquire 3 cities, the new count would be 2.

If a city is abandoned we don't add 1 to the right to acquire cities. The only way we can abandon and replace a city is if we already have the right to acquire 1 city.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK89-750AD.zip

preturn: some MM. Capital should work on the spices. Also move some tiles over to river and coastal, and now we are making +7gpt more.

Fire a taxmen and MM a bit more.

IBT no attack. Greek knights head toward Persia. Zulu declares on Portugal. Persia lost the saltpeter town and is under heavy attack. :D

760AD: retreat two cavs, lose one, kill two riflemen, and raze Altin Tepe.

With some units built we are making +1gpt again..

Sell WM to get 4g.

IBT Persia wants peace and I decline.

770AD: We lose one cav, kill 2 rifle, and raze Richmond. However, there is a stack close and our 3 exposed cavs might be killed. On the bright side our unit cost would drop.

I merge a native worker.

Upgrade a knight.

IBT we only lose one cav and the other two retreat. :)

780AD: nothing.

IBT Zulu MA with Persia against us. Very good, we welcome the war happiness.

790AD: Kill some units.

IBT Lots of Greek units move into Persia.

800AD: We raze Brighton but lose 3 cavs.

I decide to use our MDI. We lose 2 and kill a rifle.

810AD: heal a bit. Persia captured a Greek town in the south.

Switch Utica to Colosseum as it's having happiness problems.