Hey, looking for some pointers from you greater players out there. Looking to get a good training game going and learn from my prior mistakes. I usually try to raise a large enough army to campaign against my neighbors, but I usually have to take one out at a time, and usually have to fight a much larger civ in MidA/early IA.

Map stats:
Playing as: Aztecs
World size: standard
World: Pangaea, 70%, 4 billion, Normal
Temperature: Temperate
Barbarians: Roaming
Rivals: Random
Victories enabled: Conquest and Domination
Ai Agression: Normal

Would like to learn how to better handle of 0% reserach and keeping up in techs. (Edit: We do not have to do this!!! We will research at our own pace if you would like.)

Start A

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/aztecs_start_1_SG.JPG

Start B

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/aztecs_start_2_SG.JPG

Start C

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/aztecs_start_3_SG.JPG


Please elaborate as much as you can on why actions were made instead of just what the decisions were while submitting turns as this is more of a training game.

Pretty standard, 24 hrs to get the save and 48 to play & post the save. Please post skips or delays so that everyone stays informed....

Also, no exploits will be used (RoP rape, Palace Jump, etc.). If something is questionable, bring it up and we'll discuss!

Hope we get this started!

not a sign up. Aztecs are not the civ to pick for a no research game. 'Pelgo works better for no research. Your goal is trades and war, not pummeling the AI. You definitely want the Phil. slingshot and a civ that doesn't start with Alpha severly inhibits that. The starts you rolled are not really condusive to no research. Here's a suggestion - try Dutch with "reefer" as the seed. Your game so you decide. I'll lurk either way. Good luck.

You definitely want the Phil. slingshot and a civ that doesn't start with Alpha severly inhibits that.How are you gonna do that without research? Goody huts?

Well I can always change it, if it is a horrible idea... I was hoping we would broker a bit if anyone decided to play. I don't mind editing the post, I was just prefering that I would want a 0% to learn the trade of doing so abit more. It isn't a necessity.

@ tomoyo - good catch. I'm having those idiot hallucinations again. What i think I was trying to say was aztecs are not good for no research. a commercial, agri, civ would be better...

@ Admiral Kutzov - the Aztecs and C3C are military and agr. I picked them for cheap barracks and units and extra growth. Just wanted to point that out to you.

Yeah, but AK is correct for the main point: If you pick a variant as newcomer, you should also pick a Civ that fits to this variant.
No Research begs for SEA or COM Civs, with the SEA/COM English as very best choice.
Aztecs are indeed great for fast Conquest/ Domination victories.

Btw, don't get frustrated when it takes some time before I'll eventually have enough sign-ups, that is pretty normal.

I'll play, if you'll have me. :bounce:

I'm a monarch player. I tried emperor for the first time this week, and got smacked. :twitch: So I could stand to learn some stuff, too...

p.s. First post!

Roster

whoknows888
Mach
TCS1
Predesad
-Open-(?)

Mach thanks for signing up. Should be great to learn things from a fellow Monarch player.

I'm in. Like other have said, the Aztecs wouldn't be good for no reasearch. Also, start A looks like the best, folowed by B. Flood plains are great for early expansion.

Sure, who. I'm looking forward to this. :)

Let's see, the starts...they all look do-able to me. Start A might be dry, it depends on whether the water to the east is lake or coast. I think I like C over A. Start C is definitely not dry, the sugar plains are as good as bgs, and we get the commerce bonus from the river. Start B has a shield problem, we may have to do some whipping there...

@ TCS1 - I was leaning more towards B, then A, because of the flood plains for early growth, but you have to factor in the possibility of disease. Start A has two bonus grasslands and the mountains could provide with early iron and some extra needed shields.

/Delurk/ Your best bet would be C. With A, you may not be able to irrigate, unless that water source to the east is fresh, and that would penalize you in terms of growth. You would also need an aqueduct, and there's no immediate evidence of a river. With B, it's not a question of "if" but "when" you will take a pop hit due to disease. You may well get hit twice, for a loss of 4 pop. With C you can irrigate the two sugars and will have a decent amount of production. That assumes you make your settler move 1 west prior to settling.

With C you can irrigate the two sugars and will have a decent amount of production.
After leaving despotism, of course.

@M60A3TTS -- I agree. I hadn't thought of the disease problem. But I think we should mine those sugar plains, not irrigate them. The sugar gives +1 food, so those tiles are already 2 food...irrigating wouldn't give us anything under despotism. We could always irrigate them later, under a different government...

irrigating wouldn't give us anything under despotism. We could always irrigate them later, under a different government...Quite right of course. C is still the best choice in any case.

Alright C is the choice. I will make the final roster when we get one or two (perferably two) if we can. If we start the game and a person would like to join if we have 4 or 5, we can make an exception. This is going to be fun :).

Anyone else want to join???

Anyone else want to join???

i'll join, i have been wanting to try a succession game for awhile. i play at emporer, but don't take that to mean i am necessarily better than you i still have a lot to learn. I like start c, i liked start b too, but there are some weaknesses there. Anyway, back to start b, i would recommend moving settler east to grass or se to hills (stay by river but move off sugar), worker then immediately starts to mine (neither irrigation nor roads give any benefit, but i would still road the tile before moving the worker off of it) i would then say move worker to other sugar and again mine then road, then to bg and mine / road (although roading 1st is debatble depending upon in game situation. Of course those moves are dependant upon what we see when the settler moves if we move the settler, which I highly reccommend.

any other discussion before we start, provided i am accepted to play.

Of course you are accepted.
I believe with the sugars you are talking about start c??? If we are talking about C then we ought to move the Settler west/sw onto the hill for defense bonus and have two areas of the river, with the sugars. Because we are despot. we can just mine over the sugars until we get to rep. or monarch.

I will post the save game (when I get home from school and getting a haircut) and if anyone feels comfortable to go first, I will have you first on the roster, and so on. You can request which spot you want.

There is still one or two spots open so if anyone else wants to join they can. If not, we will start playing later tonight hopefully.

Roster

whoknows888
Mach
TCS1
Predesad
-Open-(?)

Welcome predesad! :goodjob:

I'm pretty torn as to how to start this one. I agree, we're settling either on the sw hill or the w grassland. If there's a food bonus around, I think we'll want to settle towards that. Otherwise, I think it's the hill -- we get that defensive bonus, it's on the same side of the river as our roaded sugar plains (so we get the movement bonus), and (I think) it can be at 10spt at size 5. We'll need to find another site to be our settler pump...

What we need is more information! Maybe the first thing we should do is move the worker on to the nw mountain ("Mt. Lookout")? We'll get a good view from there, and we'll know exactly where to settle on turn 2. The downside is we lose 2 worker turns, but if there's wheat to the nw and we miss it by settling on the hill, we'll be kicking ourselves later...

i hate to lose the worker turns, but you are probably right, move worker to hill might be best. its a situation where if we dont we might regret it and if we do we might say it was a waste of time. Better to move worker to hills than settler only to see something which makes us move settler again and waste a settler turn.

okay, after some further reflection i have a few other suggestions, really just one:

Avoid the ultra-early despotic GA with the Jaguar warriors. I suggest we use them as scouts early and during wars they will come in handy for grabbing workers and pillaging, but I do not think at the Monarch level on this size world we should have that ultra-early GA. Especially since our best tiles around our capitol will provide little / no benefit from GA, the BG and the sugars once mined will already give 2 shields, no additional in GA. Most worked tiles will probably be around the river in the capitol and once roaded will provide 2 commerce, so no additional commerce from GA, with the exception the sugars would provide an additional because one would be lost to tile penalty anyway. But that's my $.02. I think we can do some really good early warring by using the jags to scout then building barracks and archers for the actual fighting, until swords / horses are available.

Avoid the ultra-early despotic GA with the Jaguar warriors.
I agree completely. As for an archer rush, we should only do that if anyone is close enough, otherwise maybe we should landgrab and try the later warrior -> sword upgrade route. What is everybody's thinking on initial build order? I was thinking jag -> jag -> settler. Send one jag east & one jag west.

I was also thinking about what to research, if anything. Since we're going a-warring, I'd love to be in Monarchy asap. We start with pottery & warrior code, which is a bit tough...not a lot of trade value there, and no second tier tech available. Maybe we could do a min run on Alphabet, since it's tough to trade for. We could go max on cb, to go up the Monarchy branch. Or we could go 0% sci, and use the gpt to do some trades.

I think I'm leaning toward 0%, hoping to trade for cb & myst, and then turning on max sci to Monarchy. In this case, we'll have to be careful not to trade gpt with anyone we're going to declare war on early. (I have a bad problem with losing my rep in my solo games, try as I might.) Any opinions?

On a different subject, I was thinking about wonders. I think we should agree on no ancient wonders, unless we capture them. Any agreement?

@whoknows -- I can take it first if you'd like, although I can't play it until tonight. How many turns are we playing?

First person is playing 20 turns and then after 10 turns for each player. I agree everything with what you guys say, and that we should head for monarchy. We will probably be at a constant war so it'd be nice. The first builds might be like jag war -> jag war -> settler. like you said.

Rosters with the order and names will be good to go tonight and will post the save this afternoon.

Have you looked at who your opponents are in the various saves? If you are doing 0% research it is not as big of a deal but if you are planning on doing some minimum run gambits for tech it is wise to look at who you are playing against to see what 1st level techs are out there and available. Next, you say that you should beeline to monarchy. If you are going for 0% research how do you plan to do that? Also do not underestimate the power of Republic for even the biggest warmongering game. It will provide you with much more cash to buy your tech and the WW only gets bad if you stay at war to long. I like to go Republic as it makes me concentrate on what goals I am trying to achieve in the war. I can't lolly-gag around like I can in monarchy. It makes me be more decisive.

Good luck!

Have you looked at who your opponents are in the various saves?
Not yet...no save yet. I had this as a high priority in my head. I agree, this is potentially important.

If you are going for 0% research
I thought this was pretty much just a guideline, that this was a straight-up game except we'd practice our trading skills. I figured this meant we'd do 0% sometimes, some min runs, and some targeted researching. I figured philosophy (& that free tech) was out, to make trading more important. (Whoknows, is that what you intended?) I'm hoping we'll do some talking about trading strategy as we go along.

Also do not underestimate the power of Republic for even the biggest warmongering game.
What you say here is interesting. I'm naturally a builder-type, but in my attempts at warmongering, I've found that the unit costs are killer in republic. I think then I'll take what you say to heart; I've got something to learn here. Maybe we'll go republic and figure out how to make it work. :thanx: for the tip! Hey guys: what say we decide government later, after getting a look at the tactical situation?

let's wait about the gov't, if lots of river sites and size 2 (7-12 citizens) cities before aqueducts then republic is more viable if we also get markets in place, but let's wait and see.

i had thought the 0% research was out, some min research at times might pay off, like if we capture the great library. assuming it is okay to hit f10 and look at our opponents, perhaps we should consider aiming to trade for alphabet (jag warriors should give lots of contacts early, esecially on pangea) then go for republic slingshot, even if we dont change to republic it is very valuable as trade bait, but i think we should go for the free tech by either researching alphabet first or hoping to trade for it first, in which case we can research The Wheel at start?? or whatever is decided by the first player.

As far as research, I have a dedicated path in the AA which follows writing to republic via slingshot, then literature and then currency, this is usually all i research in AA because with this path I can trade for the rest. i am not reccommending that exact path, just a little insight from previous games. Of course, with this strategy, i sometimes let the Ai get 3-4 techs ahead of me before making some trades so I can get fair value.

I am also thinking about another opening moves approach, worker to mountains, if no food bonus in that direction, settler to hills which is a fine place to settle anyway and anything we could see form those hills should be within reach after culture expansion. this maximizes chances of finding a food bonus, a cow or wheat gives a settler factory with what we have already, i am pretty sure, but we might have to settle on BG to do so, but the trade off is huge. Just another possibility to think over.

Predesad - Up (hope you don't mind)
Mach - On deck
whoknows888
TCS1

hope you guys don't mind how I made the roster.

Here is the save.

Here is the save for the next player, Mach, I actually only played 19.75 ;) turns, settler just built and left it to next player what direction to move settler, also luxury slider needs to be moved back to 0%, forgot to do that before saving. Will post log later, time for work now.

predesad you have a screen? You also forgot your logbook. :eek: :crazyeye: ;)

@whoknows -- he said he'd post later... :p

I was able to look at the save this morning, looks like a good set of turns. I'll wait for the log to comment more. I can play it tonight, but if we want to discuss some stuff before I take my turns then I can play tomorrow night instead.

One thing, when I opened the save, I noticed that the f10 button wasn't working for me. All the other fkeys seemed to work, but when I hit f10 nothing happened. Did f10 work for you predesad? Just out of curiosity, are we all using patch 1.22? I have civ iii complete, which I think is on that patch already...

Sorry, I didn't read all the way through. Yeah I have civ 3 comp. also. I will be on later at 9 or 10 centeral time, because I have to go to church and it is Ash Wed.

Later guys and sorry about that predesad and Mach

F10 doesn't work when space victory is not enabled.

okay guys, sorry about the delay but i just barely managed to squeeze in the turns before work this morning and i am working about 12 hours a day right now which is unusual, i figured it was better to post the save sans log than to make Mach wait so he could at least look at the save.

@TimBentley - Duh about the f10 thing, thanks for pointing this out, i was also wondering why f10 would not work.

turn 1 - 4000 BC: debated over worker to mountains or worker to hills, chose worker to mountains, realized there was not going to be a food bonus in any direction, plus we were very near coast. moved settler "W" to grasslands to be next to coast

turn 2 - 3950 BC: Technotitlan founded; build set to Jag (8 turns, but really 7 do to growth on 7th turn); worker to sugar; noticed f10 problem, used f11 to get a look at top 10 cities among which were England, Korea, and Byz so plenty of opportunity for trade for alphabet, however, research @ 100% gives alphabet in 27 turns (surely would shorten with growth & rivers) so I decided to forego the trade for alphabet gambit and research it @ 100%

turn 3 - 3900 BC: set Worker to build mine on sugar

turns 4 - 8 (3850 BC - 3650 BC) hit enter repeatedly

turn 9 - 3600 BC: Technotitlan builds Jag, renamed to Bob for easy reference, anyone who wants to rename to something more creative feel free to do so; set production to build another Jag (4 turns); order worker to build road on sugar; Bob heads east

turn 10 - 3550 BC: Bob sees goody hut and makes contact with Chinese warrior, they have Masonry over us, we have onthing to offer but 10 gold and they laugh in our face

turn 11 - 3500 BC: Chinese warrior pooped the hut, believe they received ceremonial burial; Bob continues east

turn 12 - 3450 BC: cultural expansion of Technotitlan, see incense just outside our borders; worker moves to other sugar; Bob continues east

turn 13 - 3400 BC: Technotitlan builds Jag, renamed to Fred (see turn 9); production set to settler (8 turns); Fred goes north, Bob continues east; worker ordered to build mine on second sugar

turn 14 - 3350 BC: Bob reaches east coast, spots ivory and a goody hut on top of a mountain; Fred goes north

turn 15 - 3300 BC: Bob pops barbs from hut; Fred continues north

turn 16 - 3250 BC: Bob kills barb, promotes to veteran, back to mountains to heal (3/4 HP); Technotitlan reaches 3 citizens, one is unhappy, luxury rate increased to 10% to avoid civil disorder; Fred continues north

turn 17 - 3200 BC: Bob rests; Fred continues north

turn 18 - 3150 BC: Bob kills another barb then rettreats to mountains to heal (2/4 HP); Fred finds Chinese city of Beijing (13 tiles NE of Technotitlan), the Chinese now have ceremonial burial, mnasonry, and bronze working over us, but we still have nothing but 10 gold to trade

turn 19 - 3100 BC: worker ordered to build road on sugars; Bob rests; Fred continues north

turn 20 - 3050 BC: Technotitlan builds settler; production set to granary, I do not think we have a settler factory near us, but there is still a possibility of a food bonus to the south (unexplored) with the agr trait and a granary we can at least have an 8 turn settler factory, did not fully analyze for possibilities but hopefully build a couple units in between settlers, might also want a barracks there, or perhaps the granary should be switched to barracks, or maybe another Jag is in order I leave those decisions to Mach; Bob rests; Fred continues north; saved & uploaded game to thread

As reported earlier, I forgot to reset luxury to 0 after settler build since we no longer have an unhappy citizen, so that needs to be done ASAP. I did not move the settler because it was my last turn and I thought I would just hand off this decision to Mach as he begins his turns. Of course he should consider this first turn in which he moves the slider and settler as a freebie and not part of his allotted 10 or 20 (is it 20 turns for first round or first player, i cant remember)

I will also post a screenie after I load the game, give me about 10 minutes. I am thinking we should focus on Technotitlan and another city for settlers with some units mixed in between settlers, ideally we would have a granary and barrack in both cities. River sites near capitol seem plentiful. Alphabet is about 4 turns away, I think, we should trade with Chinese of course for techs. We should also plan to wipe out China because they are pretty close, but thoughts of war are somewhat distant. As far as units, I suggest Jags for exploration, archers for future wars / barb dispersal, no warriors / spears, but that is all just my $.02. Good luck to the rest of the rotation.

Also, I am still inclined to pursue Republic slingshot if others agree. And I agree with whoever said no AA wonder builds, except if the circumstances are right and we get that ivory hooked up we might consider SoZ, but that is prolly a longshot. Oh, and btw, there are 2 BG by thew river underneath the name of the city for a total of 4 BG in our city radius, 3 by river in addition to the sugars, that means 5 citizens = 11 shields & 12 commerce in despotism.

Thanks predesad, it must suck having to work for 12 hours. It is 10 turns per player now. I agree with you and, we should probably do the Rep sling although, WW if we got to war with China is possible, so maybe Monarchy might be the best. We will see. Good job predesad.

Roster

predesad - Finished
Mach - Up
whoknows888 - On deck
TCS1

Nice start, solid turns. Good job on alpha, it looks like that's going to work out well. :goodjob:

A few things

1.) Note that Bejing is size 1, so they most probably have a settler out.
2.) How tight to do you guys like your cities? I'm probably going to plop the settler here...
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/whoknows01_2ndcity.JPG
...and start on a granary.
3.) I'm trying to figure out if the Chinese know anyone else. If they got cb from that hut, then they still somehow got pots & bw. Most likely they researched one of those, so I'm thinking they don't know anyone else yet. Regardless, I'll get what we can for alpha from them, and hope for other contacts. Maybe we can get a currah out of Tenoch after the granary?
4.) There is a spot to the east that has two flood plains, maybe we can get a 2 turn worker factory out of it someday? Or is it too far away?

Ok, Republic ho! it is. That makes this a got it . I'll play tonight.

that's prolly as good as any for a settler.

a curragh would be good, but maybe a 2nd settler before the curragh?

i had a thought for the capitol being an 8 turn archer / settler factory, would take quite a bit of set up and wastes lots of shields, but mainly because we have so many good tiles and no matter what we build we are going to waste shields somewhere. anyway, here is my thought:

size 4 = 9 shields, 3 turns for archer
city to grow the next turn with granary = 11 shields, + 1 turn size 5 = 11 shields, 2 turns for archer
size 5 = 11 shields, 3 turns for settler
2 archers and 1 settler every 8 turns, just a thought, but for right now i would like a curragh (or two) and maybe a couple more jags so basically this is just an idea for later not to set up for right now.

I like the cities CxxC or CxxxC, but it doesn't bother me how you have it. I'd say build 1 or 2 more jag wars and a curragh then a settler, but we may waste turns if we miss the oppurtunity to build the settlers. In other notes the other city should produce a worker either all times or the second city can do a worker, jag war, archer, worker build. If anyone else wants to comment make them lol ;).

The great Machtezuma surveys the young land and sees pristine rivers, rolling hills, and something pungent and smokey just over the horizon. :smoke: Still he finds it lacking. His people are hungry! He sends his lackeys off to search the land...

PreFlight -- adjust lux to 0%
settler e
hit space
(I) -- nothing

Turn 1 (3000) -- settler ne
Bob Zuma attacks the evil barb, wins losing 1HP, so to celebrate he...heads s.
Fred Zuma e hits ocean, ne
(I) -- nothing

Turn 2 (2950) -- settler ne
worker nw
Bob Zuma rests
Fred Zuma w hits ocean, s
(I) -- nothing

Turn 3 (2900) -- settler ne
worker mines
Bob Zuma s, s
Fred Zuma se, s
Sci to 70%, alpha still in 2
(I) -- Chinese pick up alphabet! Doh! :gripe:

Turn 4 (2850) -- Teotihuacan founded, set to granary
Fred Zuma s, s
Bob Zuma sw, s
Sci to 10%, alpha in 1
(I) -- Alpha comes in, sci to 100%, set to writing in 24
English settler/warrior pair shows up s of Bob.
They'll give us bw for wc & 14g, i take it, we are at parity with the english.

Turn 5 (2800) -- Bob se, se
Fred w
(I) -- nothing

Turn 6 (2750) -- Bob ne, e
Fred s
(I) -- Chinese warrior shows up s of undefended Tenoch. Please don't attack us! Good Chinese, nice Chinese...

Turn 7 (2710) -- Fred e
Bob sw, w, runs into Korean warrior, Koreans are up masonry, wheel, cb
There's a 2fer here, but we can't afford it.
(I) -- Chinese warrior walks away...

Turn 8 (2670) -- Fred e, e
Bob sw, w
(I) -- nothing

Turn 9 (2630) -- worker roads
Fred s, se
Bob w
(I) -- nothing

Turn 10 (2590) -- Bob nw, w
lux to 10%

I'll stop now. So much for using alphabet as trade bait. We're at parity with the english, down cb & masonry to the chinese, down cb masonry & wheel to the koreans. Not much we can do there for the moment.

Teoti has 12 shields invested in a granary, there's still time to change it to a unit or rax. Bob is heading sw, Fred is sitting in the middle of the continent, he can go bust the rest of the fog north, or he could explore south, or he could head home. I left that decision for who -- Fred still has movement points left.

I'll post the save & screenshot in a sec.

Here's the Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SG_Aztecs_2590_BC.SAV).

And here's a picture:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/whoknows01_dotmap1.JPG
We can make both Tenoch & Teoti into our 8 turn unit/settler factories, so they would each need a granary and a rax. predesed I think you're right, Tenoch can get 2 20 shield units out, Teoti may only get one.

Red dot can be a 5spt unit factory, needing only a rax. Blue dot grabs both flood plains and a bg, so with some improvements it can make 5fpt & 5spt, making a perfect worker factory, with a granary. So I was thinking we could settle red dot first, then blue dot. All these city spots are on rivers. After this, we could put an incense city down by those lakes, and a commerce city nw of Teoti on the coast.

To do this we'd have to squeeze some workers out of Tenoch & Teoti. Improvements are going to be very high priority. The downside of this plan is we may be unit-poor for awhile until we get these machines up and running.

That's what I was thinking. What does everyone think? Was anyone thinking along different lines than this? I have the feeling that all this would just take too long to develop. I'm not very good at starts with no food bonuses...

All in all I think we are in decent shape. Sux about alphabet, but i think too many sefaring / commercial civs to trade with prevented our being able to trade it. Perhaps a few more contacts we can find someone to trade with. I have not looked at save yet, but sounds like you did a good job, Mach.

My thoughts:

1) DO NOT PANIC over tech, i still think republic slingshot is doable, contacts are very important and we should keep an eye on anyone who discovers writing. DO NOT TRADE writing until right before philosophy is discovered unless another civ also discovers writing (at that point trade writing like crazy because the other civ will anyway) Once a civ has writing, if there are any goody huts left and a civ pops a tech, it will be philosophy. If we get Republic Slingshot we easily catch up even if writing is fully distributed since we would have monopolies on philosophy, code of laws, and republic. So again, do not panic about tech race. Contacts are very important, I think our jags need to stay out there exploring, there are still civs to find.

2) in order to get the unit / settler factory up and running our city has to grow to size 5 anyway, so I say let's think about getting out a couple units after the granary or go right for the barracks (which is only 20 shields and migh tonly take 3 turns if we have 7 shields) to allow some growth before the 2nd settler. Then we can afford to focus on the barracks for both those cities. It seems to take forever getting things set up, but once you are there it is like boom, your civ explodes right before your eyes. I think with patience we can develop those cities like we want without hurting ourselves and we'll be much better off in the long run

3) i see we have 3 lux nearby, dyes, incense, and ivory. Lots of fresh water sites. Republic may be a good option as a government. oh, make that 4 lux, silks also nearby. add a market and that's 6 happy faces. trade those silks because there are extras and we could import a couple more hopefully, until we just take them :D

4) your red dot was where i was considering putting the 2nd city and was going to head the settler in that direction until i decided to let you decide, so that is obviously a good site IMO. (do not take this as a complaint about your 2nd city site)

5) we need more workers asap or our plans will never materialize

I do agree, yet shouldn't we be turning out settlers at size 4? Also we need to build MP (1 or 2 per city) in our cities incase of a suprise attack.

Would it be best to move the settler 1 sw from red dot so we can get incense? After the granary in teo I'll build a worker.

predesad
Mach - Just went
whoknows888 - Up
TCS1 - On deck

I have the save, I will work on it when I get home from school.

@predesed -- 5.) Agreed. Red dot will be hurting bad until we can get some of those plains irrigated, so maybe workers are currently a higher priority than settlers. We could push out a pair of workers from Tenoch instead of it's next settler. The first could mine/road around our current cities, the second could road to red dot then start irrigating. Just a thought.

@whoknows -- Tenoch needs to be at ~10spt in order to do a unit --> unit --> settler cycle in 8 turns, and the smallest size it can do that is at size 5. So the cycle will have to be something like (size 5) archer --> archer --> (grow to size 6) --> settler. predesad pointed out the cycle could start in the middle of size 4, but still we can't start the settler until size 5 or 6.

Moving red dot toward the incense is a thought, but that moves it off the river, and it makes the spacing between red & blue dots pretty loose. We can put an incense city on the lakes later; I don't think we're hurting for luxuries in the short term...

TCS1, are you around? We haven't heard from you in awhile...

Good luck, who!

I do agree though, and I made some comments on your screen if you don't mind.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Aztecs_SG.JPG

@whoknows -- I agree with you here. I chose blue dot's location because I thought it could be a 2-turn worker factory without expansions, but I made the rookie mistake of forgetting about waste. :blush: So at first blue dot would only be a 3-turn factory, needing an expansion (or maybe just a courthouse) to get it down to 2 turns.

Northern grey dot can be a 3-turn factory at first, but then after an expansion it grabs that 2nd flood plain and becomes a 2-turn factory. So it has the same thing going, but with less waste & corruption. Better idea.

Also notice that at size 8, in republic, with the irrigated flood plain & irrigated grasssland, northern grey dot can use all six interior mined hills for a cool 19spt! :D Now that's before waste of course, but with a courthouse and a few more pop points, I'm pretty sure we can get it to a net 20spt. Flood plains by hills are powerful...

So I vote for northern grey dot, it can make workers for a long time, then switch to units later. Southern grey dot doesn't get the 2nd flood plain, so it doesn't get my vote.

I think i like the revised city locations (northern grey dot), but the issue about needing a cultural expansion to get the 2nd flood plains could be a problem, we wont have a tech to get any culture for awhile if research goes as planned, nobody else has said anything to contradict my suggestions yet, but we could also stumble along a contact with trade potential. Of course, another city placed right beyond those flood plains may bring the flood plains into the borders without an expansion, but that would be a much later consideration, but still possibly sooner than a culture building.

to review my previous suggestion for an 8 turn 2 archer settler factory which Mach liked:

@ pop 4: start building archer - 3 turns
1 turn pop 4 + 1 turn pop 5: archer - 2 turns
pop 5: settler - 3 turns (settler is finished the same turn city grows to pop 6 and goes back to pop 4)

i think that is the most effiecient 8 turns we can get, since it will take 8 turns of growth to build a settler anyway.

a second city will hopefully provide another 8 turn factory - 1 unit - 1 settler

we need a barracks in capitol besides granary, and we need at least 1 more mined BG for it to work. However, this cycle does not have to start right now, we can wait until after the next settler is built and in the meantime get the barracks up, a curragh maybe, another jag, etc, etc.

As far as workers, our capitol worker has about 20 more turns of work in the capitol and then can be freed up for other uses, i think. other cities need to think about workers as first build until we do something about worker factory, IMO. 2nd city, whatever its name is, might need to build a worker after granary, but I do not really want to build a worker in capitol because of interference with settler. if we had had a food bonus i usually build warrior, warrior, worker, but we had no food bonus. For right now we are short on workers but can survive as long as this is made a priority soon, IMO.

Because I know I ramble a lot, a simple way of explaining what I am trying to say about workers: let's not let worker builds interfere in the land grab phase or we could lose out, but make them a high priority in cities not building settlers.

so what's the deal? who knows what happened to whoknows?

I've been doing homework, sorry. I'm leaving to go out of town tomorrow, and I will play first thing in the morning and post a log and screen. Sorry guys.

Pre-turn: I examine our situation. If we can get writing we will have good trade options. After the granary I am going to build some MPs.

Turn 1 2550 BC: Move Fred Zuma 2 NW. Moved Bob Zuma 2 North. We have diamonds near us! Going to be good if we can get to them.

IBT: nothing really, troop movement.

Turn 2 2510 BC: Move Bob Zuma onto mountains to view terrain closes to us. Fred Zuma 1 NW through the jungle

IBT: troop movements

Turn 3 2470 BC: Have to set the science slide to 80%, -1 gpt. Writing in 16 turns. Moving worker to road and mine sw of capital. Building 2 spearmen in capital. Bob Zuma discovers flood plains and desert to the south of our capital by the incense. This can be a very good worker/settler factory.

IBT: Nothing.

Turn 4 2390 BC: There is 2 wheats on the flood plains. This is really good news!!! Worker begins build on road.

Turn 5 2350 BC: Nothing exciting.

Turn 6 2310 BC: tenochtitlan spearman -> spearman (in 3). Korea gained the Wheel.

Turn 7 2270 BC: Set science slider to 70%, writing still in 9 turns. Worker begins on mine. Bob Zuma discovers 2 dyes. We are getting 2 gpt. Nothing fascinating yet.

Turn 8 2230 BC: Our second city revolt, I thought I put the lux slider up to 20%. Spearman in 1.

Turn 9 2190 BC: tenochtitlan spearman -> jag war. Fred Zuma heading west close to our capital and looks like will be heading towards the mountain where the diamonds are.

Turn 10 2150 BC: Writing in 6, I’ll move one jag war. Next person.

I forgot the screenie

TCS1 is up.

TCS1 post the screen if you can, if not someone else. Gotta go, later guys.

Looking pretty good. Things moving according to plan. Bummer about the rioting. A few things...

I would switch that jag build to an archer. I'm getting afraid of someone demanding writing from us once we have it, and if we say no and end up in a war, the archer will serve us well against warriors. Since there seems to be only one direction to scout toward, Bob & Fred should suffice as scouts...

Looks like our incense city will be more powerful than I thought, with the wheat -- it could also be a worker factory. Should we settle that before northern grey dot? Anybody want to make a more comprehensive dotmap?

First of all, yes things do look good for us and I have no real complaints, but there are a couple things I might have done differently. I might have considered making those spears archers instead, I build very few spears, but we did need the MPs to lower the lux rate. The new find has huge consequences & is easily a 2 turn worker factory at pop 5. While I did not make a comprehensive dot map, I picked out what I think would be a good spot for the worker factory, although someone else might have a better idea. The red dot is a place we already decided to settle, the purple dot is the worker factory. Because of the proximity of other cities we won't need any culture expansions to get all the necessary tiles in our border, plus this gets incense and I think these should be our next 2 cities instead of the grey dot in the north from the previous spot, although that is still a good spot, but the location of it might be in question now that we have a more convenient worker factory spot and i think that spot might need to be third on the list, possibly even lower because with so many luxuries out there we might want to grab some of those before the AI, but that is debatable & I am not sure right now. The purple slashes represent worked tiles.

Since we are by a lake we get 3 food in city square from agr trait + 1 shield, (1)irr wheat on flood plains = 5 food, (2) irr flood plains = 3 food, (3) irr incense on desert = 2 food (agr trait) + 1 shield, (4) mined plains = 1 food + 2 shields, (5) forest = 1 food + 2 shields. Total = 15 food, (+5/turn) + 6 shields. If we lose more than one shield 2 corruption, then we can also mine the grassland for an extra shield and still maintain +5 fpt.

Perhaps someone else could work out a settler factory from that spot, but i think by the time it even gets set up the land grab might be over and we might be better off to just stick with our other two cities for settlers since we are in a desperate need for workers.

After discovering writing the next major research decision would be to go for republic slingshot with CoL then Phil, or just get the free tech w/ Phil. Since noone we know yet has writing I think it is still worth the gamble to go for rep slingshot, but this also means we might not want to risk trading writing yet.

Right now for longterm goals I would put China on our list as the first civ to eliminate. Our capitol still needs a barracks and then if we do decide on 2 archers / settler factory there it should not be long until we are capable of starting a war

Anyway, those are just my thoughts.

Ok, so it's been 24 for TCS to pick it up. He posted a 'got it' in another game just yesterday, so he's around. I pm'd him this morning, so let's give him some time.

As for the current topics, I would actually have built 4 warriors instead of the 2 spears. They have approximately the same defensive value, except they have more mp value.

Second, I agree wholeheartedly with purple dot. Nice job! We should settle that next. I'm still comfortable with our two settler/unit cities, so let's let purple dot make workers. So I'm in agreement here, in other words.

Republic slingshot, check. We seem to be doing fine there, so CoL next.

As for destroying China someday, I agree, they are the first target. It would be nice to own (what is most probably) the end of our landmass, with only one front to worry about. I notice China has iron working, so an archer rush gets less possible as time goes on, depending on where the iron is. What kind of force do you guys think we should build up for an attack? I think 5-6 archers (& a spear?) as a first wave would do nicely -- that should at least be enough to destroy the first city we reach. And we'll keep constant reinforcements streaming up... :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:

Mach , I agree with you about the 4 warriors thing, but i was thiniking in terms of 20 shield units, archers over spears, but for MP's I would have just taken warriors they could stay as MP until we are ready to upgrade them to swords.

You seem to be thinking along the same lines as I am, if we get a barracks in the capitol and about 5-6 archers I think we go. As far as the ironworking thing, I am going to hedge on the Chinese starting to build a wonder before they bother to hook up the iron, or at about the same time. Agree we should not stall on the archer rush, but I think we have time for the unit build up. I guess the only real question is should we build that barracks or go with regular archers. Production wise, a barracks = 1 archer since we are militaristic.

Perhaps TCS forgot he signed up for this one, hope he picks it up soon.

just a note that we are not only over the 24 hour got it, but also the 48 hour played it.

Yah. I saw TCS posted a 'got it' in that other game...then asked for a skip. He hasn't responded to my pm yet. Anyway, I guess he's a skip. I guess you're next, predesad.

don't forget to grab the gems to the SW

i think i will wait for the official word from whoknows, i dont want to overstep my bounds.

Sorry about that guys. Go ahead and skip because in the other one he was in he asked for a skip because of his sudden departure out of town. Admiral nice comment and I will make sure we get those gems to the sw.

i will play later tonight, consider this a got it because i have it saved already.

alright, oh and just to let you guys know I'm not going to be playing from March 1-6 or 7(?)

Things went okay, but I see some problems, they can be rectified but the next few turns are going to take some real micromanagement. During my turn there might have been a war, read on for the details . . .

preturn - Bob goes S towards england; spots settler (English) on mountains unescorted, Bob has every intention of taking this settler if he can get to him in time, unfriendly terrain will restrict his movement (can't move 2 times) Bob realizes the English are weak in military to his own country and figures he can sue for peace in a few turns and maybe even get ironworking from england with no actual battles taking place and even net 2 slave workers; production orders in Techno changed from jag to archer

turn 1 - 2110: Bob chases settler, busts fog, Fred heads sw to bust fog; micromanaged citizens for commerce

- techno builds archer --> settler 5 turns, but really 3

turn 2 - 2070: Archer fortifies for MP; Fred sw; spear on goto orders arrives at Teo & fortifies for MP; Bob chases Settler, busts fog, sees blue borders in distance (Korea?); luxury reduced to 10% thanx to MP; micro citizens, techno to 9 shields + mine will be finished in 1 turn, teo granary still in 1 turn commerce increased due to mm

- teo builds granary --> worker

turn 3 - 2030: Fred busts fog; Bob chases Settler, busts fog; worker finishes mine, moves to BG; Teo mm for shields, worker in 2 turns; military advisor says there are barbs near techno

turn 4 - 1990: Fred busts fog, meets russian warrior; Bob abandons pursuit of settler and war is avoided, the english were really worried about my jag & theri settler, they moved warriors out and I could have taken the settler this turn, only their warriors would have then attacked me, if i lost, what good wouild come from capturing the settler, if i win, GA, Bob busts fog, spots goody hut; worker ordered to build mine on BG; Russia has masonry, ceremonial burial, and the wheel, we have nothing; mm citizens, techno has 6 citizens & extra unhappiness, instead of raising lux, i convert one citizen to a scientist, production is not hurt, settler in 1 turn, only 1 excess food, but with an average of +3 food with a granary this will not hurt growth either the city will still grow in 4 turns (settler built, pop down to 4 w/ +3 food) this nets +5 gold, writing 2 turns (4,5,1 - tax rates, science, tax, lux); micro teo for food / commerce, worker in 1 turn

-techno - settler built --> barracks; teo - worker built --> archer (note i went for an archer instead of a barracks here to keep maintenance costs from getting too high and hurting our economy, we are paying 3 in maintenance and can only research @ 70% to break even, a barracks here later may be in order i just did not think now was the best time)

turn 5 - 1950: settler/ spear combo to hills heading for purple dot site; Fred busts fog; teo worker to BG; Bob pops hut . . . gets a conscript warrior; Bob busts more fog; warrior renamed to lucky and also busts fog; tax rates (7,2,1) writing 1 turn, net 0 gold, note nobody has writing, decide to go for Republic slingshot

-writing discovered, research CoL (27 turns), philosophy would have been 16, decline offer to establish embassies (we're nearly broke)

turn 6 - 1910: settler / spear to other hills going after purple dot site; teo worker ordered to mine BG; Bob / Fred bust fog; Lucky goes towards home for future MP duty, long trip; refrain from trading writing to prevent other civs getting philosphy before we complete slingshot

turn 7 - 1870: settler to desert heading for purple dot site, no barbs in site so spear heads back to techno to arrive just as techno grows to 5 & needs another MP; Fred / Bob bust fog; lucky head home; nobody has writing

-China requests audience, they want to trade us ceremonial burial for writing, we laugh at Mao and decline, he remains polite to us so we laugh some more

-techno builds barracks --> settler (this was a mistake I should have went for an archer next (2 turns) then the settler in 3, this disrupts the previous build plans but we shold easily get back on track after settler (archer 3, archer 3, settler 4 ??)

turn 8 - 1830: settler arrives at purple dot site; spear returns to techno; Bob / Fred bust fog; lucky heads home; mm Techon & Teo, settler in 3, archer in 2, nobody has writing

turn 9 - 1790: spear fortifies in capitol for MP; found Tlatelolco on purple dot site, work flood plains wheat, build worker (10 turns, growth in 4) *see note below about potential happiness problems for this city; Fred / Bob bust fog; lucky heads home; CoL now in 24 turns +2gpt; Korea & Russia have writing, this could hurt if one goes for philosophy, but they will prolly go for techs like map making, CoL, math, polytheism first, I hope. Since these 2 civs have writing I immediately enter negotiations for trades, it was a rather complicated series of deals and took awhile to figure out the maximum I could get:

China: Masonry, Ceremonial Burial, Worker, 25 gold
England: Iron Working, 24 gold
Russia: Masonry, The Wheel, Ceremonial Burial
Korea: Masonry, The Wheel, Ceremonial Burial, 54 gold

trades: (they give - we give)
China: MAS + 25 gold for writing
England: IW + 5 gold for writing
Russia: Wheel for IW (note Korea & Russia have Horseback Riding
Korea: IW for HBR
China: we gift them the Wheel
China: CB for HBR (the reason for gifting the wheel)
England: 9 gold for CB

was upset I could not pry the worker from China and I left Korea with 45 gold, Korea and Russia also have Myst, more traddes can be had after CoL; we are even with China, up MAS & Wheel on England

this leaves us with 80 gold, up reaearch to 80% - CoL 17 turns -2 gpt

end of turn 9

-Teo builds archer --> archer

turn 10 - 1750: archer fortifies in Teo for temporary MP duty, though not needed right now will be soon; worker builds mine, ordered to build road; Fred / Bob / Lucky all hold for orders form next in line

Archer in Teo could be woken up and moved to Tlat for MP and then the archer that Teo next builds can be used for MP there, but Teo's unhappiness would increas before that archer is built, IIRC. I think we shold try to keep the research @ 80% to get the slingshot, this means luxury needs to hold @ 10 % since we are already running a deficit. Perhaps when Tlat grows the extra citizen should be converted to a scientist, this hepls our cause, then when worker is built it can connect incense to help unhappiness plus Teo can lend either the archer it currently has or the one it is building for MP.

It is going to take some skill and management to keep our military growing, get workers, expand, and grab rep slingshot. the incense connected will help all of this, plus maybe a couple settlers down the line those gems can be grabbed. next city i think goes in the red dot site from previous mentioned discussion.

my pic next turn shows the location of the resources visible to us, i don't think i missed any, except i did not specifically point out the incense we already claimed.

no other comments now, building up military somewhat, england or china needs to be attacked soon as we are capable, IMO, Tlat keeps building workers, IMO.

good luck Mach, I know you are capable.

I noted the general direction of the russians also, can be seen in minimap, plus fred is by russian borders, also there are spices in that general direction, for osme reason most of my text did not show up when I uploaded the pic so those are what those dashes mean in the upper left corner, the other dashes you can see what they are pointing at despite the missing labels.

Ok, I see it, and I think can play tonight.

Looks like you're right on the ball on this one, pred. I agree with the scientist in Tlat if we need it, that's a good idea. And nice trading! :goodjob:

I would love to send the next settler down to claim those gems right now, I think it's the builder in me. If we did that, the trick would be to fill in the space between the capital & the gems. The problem is there are three! (count them!) three! volcanos between us and the gems! I don't trust any city (or road) we might place in that mess, so...the gems will have to wait a bit. I see those volcanos as defining our border for the time being...

So we monger war. :hammer: I think we should target the English first, as they have better lands, and they appear to have iron. The Chinese don't have iron, which will make them easy pickins later.

Anyways, I'll get red dot and northern grey dot up, and I'll continue building military. I'm thinking of having Techno build a worker or two, in place of it's next settler. We need workers; pretty soon we'll have five cities and three workers. I'll look at it closely before I decide that.

I'd like to get those horses hooked up sometime soon, so we can build horsemen instead of archers. There's a nice 'chute' between Tlat and London, just perfect for charging the English with horsies...

Mach, maybe go with workers from Teo instead of techno?? but we do need more of them, of course we also need more settlers. China is only a threat if they take our lands, they already stole our silks, it might be possible to quick hit them after dealing with English or towards the end of First English War, assuming we don't wipe them out. I partially agree with hitting English first, but I would also like to have CHina pretty well dealt with before they get to CHivalry and can trade for horses/iron unless they claim some of their own, we still have unexplored area up there and horses fall between China and us. But England has the ability to get strong pretty fast, their military has always been the weakest of all civs according to military advisor, often weak to us but i don't remember what it was last turn i had. So as I am thinking out loud, prolly shold go after them first, but beware Korea, they have had strongest military on the average, hope they don't aid england. It would be nice to hit them both at the same time, englaind & china, but the dircetion of our game does not appear to allow us to do that.

good luck in the next turn Mach, it could be a mm headache, of course, Tlat may get 2 citizens without disorder depending upon corruption because of the 10% lux which could get the worker out quicker so maybe not so bad

Hi,
I'm interested in joining. Is there still room in the roster?

Lullaby you can join. Mach, predesad, and TCS1 you guys agree?

Yes of course I agree. :wavey: Lullaby!

Here are my turns.

Read through pred's notes. :coffee: Ok, here we go.

Preflight -- Fred & Bob explore, Lucky heads home.
Military advisor says there are barb tribes near undefended Tlat.
MM Techno for gold, still growth in 2 & settler in 1
(I) Techno settler --> Archer

T1 (1725BC) -- Settler/archer pair head toward red dot.
Sci to 100%, CoL in 14 @ -3gpt.
Fred&Bob explore, Lucky heads home.
We find Moscow...and it's Korean! :eek:
(I) -- Volcano near Tlat is active.

T2 (1700BC) -- Settler/archer pair continues to red dot.
Lux to 10% (Techno)
Fred&Bob explore, Lucky heads home.
Bob and Lucky have both run into barbs. Lucky's gonna get attacked.
(I) -- Barb doesn't attack, just walks along hills. :hmm:
Tlat grows.

T3 (1675BC) -- Settler/archer pair continues to red dot.
Lucky heads n, Bob avoids barb & busts fog, Fred busts fog
Lucky descovers barb camp on hill. Can our conscript warrior beat a barb warrior on a hill? Um, no.
Tlat doesn't need a scientist...because we plopped it on the incense! :dance:
(I) -- Techno archer --> archer
Teo archer --> settler

T4 (1650BC) -- Settler/archer pair arrives at red dot
Tenoch archer forts.
Teo archer heads toward Tlat.
Science to 100%
Fred&Bob explore, Lucky heads home.
Fred sees red borders, and Bob has run into an Egyptian warrior.
I trade with Egypt IW & HBR for Myst & a worker. I hope this is ok...all these techs have gotten around, and I want the worker...)
(I) -- Various movements.

T5 (1625BC) -- Found Texoco, work the grassland, build a rax
Fred&Bob explore, Lucky heads home.
Fred meets the Byzantines, they are down HBR & have no gold. Nothing doing.
(I) -- Tlat worker --> granary
Byz discover Map Making

T6 (1600BC) -- Fred&Bob explore, Lucky heads home.
Map Making is very expensive...
Unfortunately, lux to 10% (Techno)
(I) -- Tenoch archer --> archer. I'm trying to get Techno to the 2 archer & settler in 8 turns track.

T7 (1575BC) -- Fred&Bob explore, Lucky is almost home.
Various military & worker shuffling.
(I) -- nothing, really

T8 (1550BC) -- Fred&Bob explore, Lucky is home. I'm sending him to Techno.
I trade England Masonry for a worker & 16 gold.
(I) -- Byzantines discover Philosophy, choose Math as their free tech. :twitch: :cry:
Techno archer --> archer
Teo settler --> rax

T9 (1525BC) -- Fred&Bob explore, various military & worker moves.
Settler/archer pair move toward northern grey dot.
(I) -- The english are building the pyramids, the egyptians are building the oracle
Techno grows.

T10 (1500BC) -- Settler/archer pair move toward northern grey dot.
Fred&Bob explore, various other moves.
Lux to 20%, sci to 70%, CoL in 3.

Pwshew! The bad news is we got beat to Philosophy. The good news is..
The incense will be hooked up next turn.
When Techno finishes it's archer, it can start a settler, and it will have entered the 8-turn archer-archer-settler factory state.
We're about to found our fifth city. We have 3 workers and 2 slaves. We definitely need more! We could build them out of Teo. But we're doing ok there.
The english are a bit backwards, and the chinese have bad cities.
In 3 turns we should have a CoL monopoly.
And finally...our home army consists of 6 archers, 2 spears, and 1 conscript warrior.

So for the next player...

Techno should build a settler after its archer.
Teo should alternate workers/units after the rax, until we have enough workers, then it can build settlers again.
Watch the MMing. Both Texoco & Teo will need some in 1 turn.
There is still 1 civ to meet.
Watch the sliders -- they are moved by Techno at the moment.
Lucky is heading to Tenoch for mp duty, to replace an archer...it's our least vulnerable city.
I'm massing our extra archers at Texoco. They could go on barb patrol, if you please.

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SG_Aztecs_1500_BC.SAV)

...and Aztecland...
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Who1_1500_home.JPG

Thx.
I'm lurking around in the forum for about a year, so I'm not really new here. Left the SG forum out for much too long, though.

I actually play on monarch level, so I should fit here quite well.

Any tips for someone new to SG's? Like, supporting software or such.

Just have the newer version of the Conquests patch. I believe I am up.

If TCS1 does not show up after my turn, I will add you right after me.

welcome lullaby :)

i am sick right now so my involvement will be a minimum. i cannot believe the Byz went for phil, that so rarely happens. good job on trades Mach. i guess the most glaring question is what to research next. u can be sure if the ai gets col & phil they will go for rep, should we make a run for it next & hope to get there first? other techs which maximize our chances of tech monopoly are literacy & currency, but i dont think anyone has math yet, IIRC.

also, if we have extra archers not used for mp could we try to find those barbs near us?

WARNING: if none of you go to war before i get turn, i prolly will.

The Byz got MM & philo pretty close together, so either they researched MM and popped philo from a hut, or they popped MM and researched philo. Or popped both. :eek:

War, eh? I was thinking about war. :mischief: I'm a bad warmonger, so I hope to learn something from you guys here. If who plays his cards right, I think we might be able to make a stack of ~6 archers by the end of his turns, or not too long after. {A thought: The next time through Techno's cycle, it can make 4 warriors instead of 2 archers, or maybe 2 warriors and 1 archer. The warrior mps should free up archers from the cities...} I don't think 6 archers is enough to send at england, but maybe they can start hitting the chinese? Do we need more? Also, shouldn't we shuffle our spears up to our cities near the enemy?

Also, I remember passing a scouting chinese warrior with a jag at one point. Whoever we go to war with, make sure to keep those jags away from the enemy! We don't want a despotic GA...

So here's my 2 cent worth on tha actual situation:

1. Sooner or later (propably sooner) we will be going to war. So we don't need Republic before we finish the first war. Getting Republic and trading it away while we cannot use it by ourselves because we are locked in a war and can't change government would give other civs quite a boost.

2. We could use CoL to bribe other civs, at least England, into the upcoming war. So I suggest going for republic at minimal research to get money needed for buying culture or fresh units in captured cities. We will also need money to upgrade warriors to swordsmen.

3. China would be my first choice as a target. This is simply because if we choose England we leave China with only one neighbour at a time when they get the feared rider. Having China with riders and a triggered GA in the back isn't really nice. We should take them out before the advent of knights.

4. Build warriors. This is really important. Once the iron is hooked up we can upgrade them and have a nice offensive power. Also warriors are the best mp you can get. Every warrior built allows one archer to go offensive and one spearman to escort the archers.

5. Hook up the iron and, even more important, horses. The second wave of attackers should consist of horsemen who are fast enough to show up in time. I can't see any really good city place close to the iron so we could build a temple in Tlatelolco to expand the borders. This can be delayed for granary + workers, but then we will need horses to get a fast attacking force.

Lullaby - I don't know how to say this nicely, but I disagree with almost everything you said :(

1. Sooner or later (propably sooner) we will be going to war. So we don't need Republic before we finish the first war. Getting Republic and trading it away while we cannot use it by ourselves because we are locked in a war and can't change government would give other civs quite a boost.

I understand what you are trying to say, but I imagine this first war to be a quick hit then sue for peace, we're not really all that ready to change gov't right now anyway and might not be when we first discover Rep, there is such a thing as changing gov't too early. We'll pick a good time between wars to change.


2. We could use CoL to bribe other civs, at least England, into the upcoming war. So I suggest going for republic at minimal research to get money needed for buying culture or fresh units in captured cities. We will also need money to upgrade warriors to swordsmen.

We don't have that many warriors (only 1 I conscript, IIRC) and I don't know if we were going to try building warriors then upgrading to swords, but rather go with archers for a quick hit early war then build swords later when we have the iron hooked up, of course another alternative is building horses instead, either are suitable for ancient age warmongering. As far as bribing other civs into a military alliance in our first war, I don't think I want to be locked into 20 turns of war and don't want to destroy our rep by agreeing to peace while an MA is in place.

Culture?? What culture? Captured cities I guess might need culture to prevent flips, but we might just raze them anyway, or slow build the culture after starving to prevent the flips. Of course, at this stage of the game the AI doesn't yet have the culture to flip their cities back to them. I would rather just station units outside the city to recapture in case of flips during the war.

As far as Rep @ min to raise the cash, I do not see that as an option. We need self research to keep up in the tech race, we do not want to fall behind and we cannot go min and keep up unless we buy tech. Buying tech would mean gpt deals and once we go with the gpt deals our self research is handicapped, at the Monarchy level self research is best because we can get ahead in the tech race if we want to, research may be halted completely at some point. The only time I reccomend min research is if we are very far behind, very far ahead, or our economy cannot support the tech we are researching & it will take ~50 turns @ max.


3. China would be my first choice as a target. This is simply because if we choose England we leave China with only one neighbour at a time when they get the feared rider. Having China with riders and a triggered GA in the back isn't really nice. We should take them out before the advent of knights.

I agree we should take care of China before the rider, but this could potentially be managed by denying them the resources through war if they do get to chivalry, they need to be knocked out, but England looks to be getting strong. This first war might just be a quick hit while we wait for a real war which will knock out China. But I definitely agree, China needs to be dealt with before the rider and we should keep this in mind.


4. Build warriors. This is really important. Once the iron is hooked up we can upgrade them and have a nice offensive power. Also warriors are the best mp you can get. Every warrior built allows one archer to go offensive and one spearman to escort the archers.

warriors are indeed the best mp, but we are contemplating a change to Republic which won't have any mps, of course we need the luxuries first. Mach had suggested going for warriors to free up soime of those archers / spears we already have and that is a good idea, but as far as building a lot of them to upgrade later we don't really have the gold to do much of that and again I don't want to go min research to get the gold. After we have enough warriors for mps I think it is just best to build whatever units we can for the war effort, be it horses, swords, or archers.

5. Hook up the iron and, even more important, horses. The second wave of attackers should consist of horsemen who are fast enough to show up in time. I can't see any really good city place close to the iron so we could build a temple in Tlatelolco to expand the borders. This can be delayed for granary + workers, but then we will need horses to get a fast attacking force.

I simply disagree about building the temple, Tlat needs to be a dedicated worker factory, that location was chosen for that purpose and we need the workers bad, to deviate to build a temple hurts our already worker poor nation. But at the same time, you are correct in that there are no real good city sites nearby. We could go for that hill next to the iron by the lake which is only 2 tiles from Tlat, we would have a flood plain avaliable to work and also a grassland, perhaps at some point it might be useful for something other than netting the iron. That is not necessarily the best solution so maybe someone else has another idea, I just do not want to interfere with the worker factory thing in Tlat, & I doubt we will be building temples anywhere soon. I 100% agree we need horses & iron ASAP.

Oh I think we're in more agreement than we think. :crazyeye: In no particular order...

I agree with pred, let's make the upcoming Chinese war a 'quick hit' war. We'll use our archer strength while it means something to wound China, then we'll get what we can out of them. (I agree, China needs to go before the rider. I hadn't thought of that. )

Meanwhile we start building a horsie army for the English. Lullaby is right, hooking up those horses is a high priority. Personally, I am in absolutely no rush to hook up that iron. Horsemen will do us just fine. We might not need that iron until knights, and if by then we still don't have it in our borders, we can always make a colony. (Building a temple in Tlat is a decent idea, but I agree with pred, we just don't have the time. We need workers more than we need that iron.)

I think horsies are better than swords for us. For the price of two swords we get 3 horsies...resulting in the same offensive power (2*3=3*2). But horsies can retreat, and their 2 movement reduces how much they'll have to defend. IMO that makes horsies superior in most situations. Swords have their place, like in rough terrain, or when you have a bunch of catapults lyring around. But we're not in any of those positions. Also, the English front will be some distance from our core, and horsie reinforcements can arrive twice as fast as swords.

As far as warriors go, I think I agree with Lullaby on this one. We should concentrate on our offensive forces first, but we should also build just enough warriors for mps. Even when we get to republic, we're going to want some warm bodies around, in case of barbs and whatnot. Techno could become a horse-warrior-warrior-settler factory, while Teo becomes a horse-settler factory, or something like that. That way all our settlers get a warrior escort, and our military cities can concentrate on horsies.

Let's see, what else. What to do with CoL? Again I agree with pred, let's not make any alliances. Should we trade CoL with the Byzantines for what we can get (maybe both Math and Philo)? What should we research next? I don't see any techs that we really need at the moment...markets would be nice, but I really don't think we have the time to build any just yet. So I guess we should continue heading for Republic.

I think the time is coming when we'll need a more extensive dotmap...

Culture?? What culture?
:rotfl:

I must admit my former post was not precise enough at some points and wrong at others.

Warriors: build enough of them to free the more valuable units from their mp duties. Don't build hordes of them.

Iron: I agree this is not of high priority. I was thinking ahead. The plan was not meant for the next 10 turns. But I agree that horsemen will do a better job even for the following wars.

In my home games I rarely build swordsmen. I have some upgraded warriors, but as I usually tend do build up until at least early MA and use knights or trebuchets for offense. This is the reason why I need to learn how to wage an offensive war in the AA.

I also *never* built a colony. I almost forgot they exist. The idea to hook up the iron that way is something to be thought about.

Republic at min/bribing for alliances: I was thinking we are going to destroy one civ directly, not take some space then sue for peace. This would have resulted in a longer war.

As for China, we should definitely take them out before the rider. Even if they don't have the resources themselves, they could trade them in. But if the first war is going to be short, England might as well be chosen.

those are good points, lullaby.

the target for the war prolly wont be pinpointed until right before the war actually happens, i see a case for either opponent. China to get the lux they stole from us, England to knock them back since they are big and encroaching upon us.

About China trading the resources in, we can prevent that with a war, disrupt their trade routes, in this way their is not necessarily the need to eliminate them before they get to chivalry as long as we undertake the task when they do get there. i say this only to point out we have our options open.

@Mach - Am I missing something, 3 horses = 2 swords, i thought both cost 30 shields to build?

Oops, no, you're right. Horsemen are 30 shields. When I looked it up I read the line for chariots... Can you tell I've only been playing this game for a month? :smoke: So that changes my vague calcs for Techno and Teo...

Can you tell I've only been playing this game for a month?

up until you pointed it out, no, i must say you seem to have picked it up rather quickly

is it still whoknows turn?

Yeah it's my turn. I will play later tonight and post it.

who, you are over your 48 again...

Sorry Mach. I have the game, and halfway done, just got some homework. Will post in the morning. Sorry again.

Sorry Mach. I have the game, and halfway done, just got some homework. Will post in the morning. Sorry again.

sorry if I am outta line here whoknows, but it is now 96 hours, i think one of 3 things are necessary:

1) change the 48 hour limit
2) post what you got and let the next player have it
3) skip your turn

& also, should we assume TCS is still a skip or give him time to see if he gets it next or perhaps lullaby should be just inserted between who & TCS so we don;t have to even consider it for the time being.

So sorry about this guys.

Log book:

Preturn: Looks good, but why no road to Teno? English attempt to blackmail us and I refused.
Turn 1 1475 bc: Teno - archer->settler. Forget the preturn? Archer on forest to hills. Begin preparation for a Chinese war. Tlaxcala founded. Tlax ->warrior.
Turn 2 1450 bc: Byzantines have mathematics, philosophy, and map making. Nothing but boredom.
Turn 3 1425 bc: CoL learned. CoL ->Lit. Teo barracks -> worker. We have a strong army compared to Eng and Chinese.
Turn 4 1400 bc: not much
Turn 5 1375 bc: Teo worker -> worker. Not much, but exploring. Traded CoL to Byz. for phil and poly.
Turn 6 1350 bc: Tlax warrior -> barracks. Teno archer -> archer.
Turn 7 1325 bc: Teo worker -> archer. Building more roads. Worker just built is heading towards the horses.
Turn 8 1300 bc: Texcoco barracks -> worker. There is an undefended Chinese settler. What to do?!? Calixtlahuaca founded and builds warrior in tex. Adjusted sci slider to 60%.
Turn 9 1275 bc: Tex worker->archer. Nothing really. Found barbs above Byz.
Turn 10 1250 bc: I will leave this turn free to next person. I wasn't paying attn. and had contact with the Vikings shortly.

Here is the save. I didn't manage to get a screen. Later guys have homework to do.

Up Lullaby
On deck TCS1

i havent viewed the save, but it sounds pretty good as if things are pretty well right on track as planned

no real news on how long TCS is going to be away and he hasn't checked in since joining the game so I am anticipating playing after lullaby, we'll see

just remember my warning, if you don't go to war with somebody, i will

lullaby, i don't remember exactly when you jumped in, but previous discussion we planned to use techno as an 8 turn archer, archer, settler factory; and tlat (i think) we wanted to set up as a worker factory if you want to keep that in mind

Good turns. It looks like you missed northern grey dot, but still it hit the river and got the horses, so it'll be ok...

Yeah, so it looks like we're up to 9 archers (& 1 more next turn), 2 spears, and 2 warriors in our home. So lullaby, if you feel like starting the Quick Hit war on the Chinese, go right ahead. They look like they're gonna found a city right by our border, so it's nice and convienient. Pretty soon we'll be switching production to horsemen.

Good turns. It looks like you missed northern grey dot, but still it hit the river and got the horses, so it'll be ok...

Yeah, so it looks like we're up to 9 archers (& 1 more next turn), 2 spears, and 2 warriors in our home. So lullaby, if you feel like starting the Quick Hit war on the Chinese, go right ahead. They look like they're gonna found a city right by our border, so it's nice and convienient. Pretty soon we'll be switching production to horsemen.

just please don't start it to about turn 5-6 and dont get peace so I can get a shot at 'em :lol:

no seriously, do what you think is best even if it means peace before i get a turn, but we have not discussed rep, i think it is important to keep a good rep

Will get it and hopefull play it tonight (CET, so you have to wait a few hours).

First question: whom to hit.

Second question: I'd like to build a couple of warriors, so that the home cities won't bw undefended while the army is on vacation. One for each city, two for the capital.

Third question: keep cities or raze them? Of course we will need more settlers with the second option.

about the warriors, we have to make sure to have "something" in the cities for mp anyway so that is a good idea, i think we might have some warriors built for this already.

whom to hit: preferrably the English or Chinese, see next point

raze or keep: prolly keep, culture difference should not be much at this point, flipping chances should be low, pick out a city or two which will benefit us, that could be the chinese silks. IMO, if you raze cities take along a settler or 2 to replce that city

I really see a case for either civ: quick hit English, then wipe out Chinese, then back to weakened English, or quick hit Chinese to weaken them for the big hit later.

To me it does not matter. During my turns I tried to provide enough workers for us. If we could get Lit also, we could get another 2 techs, and mathematics could be crucial for us.

Mach sorry about the Northern gray dot, I forgot where to put the settler so I found a BG and placed him right there.

I think we need more warriors and archers before we go to war. The reason for this is that if we go, any other civ can attack our cities. Also if the Chinese do have lots of spearman it will be hard for us to kill them off. I say we wait a few more turns to see if we can get about 15 or so archers, 7 warriors, and have the 2 spearmen. The Chinese don't have very many productive cities (the one with silks) so it shouldn't be too bad.

We will keep the 8 turn settler going, and if you want to keep the cities because of the position it is located it is fine, but also hopefully we will have a settler or two to come right behind to settle. I don't think we should head for Repub. because we don't have enough worked tiles, and wouldn't get the cash from it.

Mach sorry about the Northern gray dot, I forgot where to put the settler so I found a BG and placed him right there.
No need to apologize, the city will be fine there, just a bit tightly spaced. The other city you placed looks to be right where I would have put it. BTW, I often have the thread open in a browser while I play, so I can alt-tab to it in case I need to reread something.

I really see a case for either civ
I agree. I just figure China because they're closer, and we are attacking with slow archers after all. It may take ~10 turns just to reach the English. As far as razing/keeping cities, keep what we can. But watch, some might autoraze, and we'll need to replace...

15 or so archers, 7 warriors, and have the 2 spearmen
That sounds optimal to me, although I think we can start with a bit less. We should have just about this at the end of lullaby's turns, hopefully. So lullaby, go ahead and build a few warriors, you got my vote. And it couldn't hurt to keep a couple of archers at home when our task force takes off, in case we need some offensive defense.

Preturn:
changed Texcoco production to Warrior
Lowered lux tax to 10%, raised science to 70%
Moved archers from Tenoch and Texcoco on their way to Tlaxcala
Workers building roads
Lucky on its way to Tenoch
Bob west, west, meets russian settler/Spearman
Fred west, west

There is a chinese settler/warrior on its way up north, probably moving to the area with the two game.

IBT: nothing

Turn 1, 1225 BC:
Tenoch Settler -> Warrior
Generally moving troops to Tlaxcala
Some worker action
Bob west, north, hits expanded russian borders
Fred sw, sw, detects
Lowered lux tax to 0%

Stopped here. There is one worker and the new settler to move.

The question is what to do with the settler. If we want to build a new city, I suggest moving towards England, to the area with the second wheat on the flood plain and the two gold mountains. Should provide quite some cash.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AztecWhoknows01Dotmap1225BC.jpg

I'm at work, so I can't look at the save, but...

Along the river by the other wheat is a good spot. Also you could consider sw of Techno, somewhere along the coast -- that spot will be a low corruption core city. Maybe we should settle that one first, to get a military factory going. The wheat site toward the english would come next.

Would you like to post a new dotmap for us, lullaby? I could do one after work, if you don't...

I edited my former post with the first dotmap. Here's the second one with the area west of Tenoch.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/L_Whoknows01Dotmap1225BC.jpg

Yellow dot: on BG, not good
Red dot: not on coast, next to a volcano, but could directly work both BG
Blue dot: on coast, could work both BG after expansion, but far away and would need roading through mountains

I tend to take the space closer to opposing civs to deny them the possibility to grow. But then I'm a builder, and here we might as well let them settle and take the land afterwards :D

I tend to use the yellow dot or the flood plane place from my first dotmap.

double post

Nice. I agree with the two red dots -- one by the wheat, one on a bg on the coast. I don't like wasting the bg either, but losing the bg is better than placing the city next to the volcano. The wheat city will have nice food, and will be a jumping off point for us against the english.

As far as which to settle first, I still prefer the coastal core city. It'll be productive for us once we get it up to size, and the earlier we settle it, the earlier it'll be productive. We should have another settler for the wheat spot soon enough. But I'll leave it up to you, Lullaby -- they're both good spots, I'll be happy whichever comes first.

IMHO, it is better to settle on a bg than next to a volcano, especially since this is a core city, if it was a corrupt city where we needed every shield we could get to get some production i might reconsider, but we're talking 4 tiles from the capitol and i dont think we can risk the havoc form the volcano. Also. one of my civ pet peeves is settling one tile from the coast, a harbor makes those coast / sea squares really good for commerce, although they could be worked by other cities.

the flood plains down there is also an excellent site for a city, just flip a coin, lullaby :lol:

i am disturbed by the "reluctance" to go to war and i will reiterate what I have already said, if lullaby or TCS (assuming he is back to play his turn) do not go to war then when i get the turn i am :p . I think we will be in plenty good shape by then. lullaby, no pressure to get things ready for me ;)

Turn 1, 1225 BC revisited
Settler moving to BG west of Tenoch

IBT: nothing special

Turn 2, 1200 BC
Moving troops to the eastern border
Some scouting

IBT: nothing special

Turn 3, 1175 BC
Tenoch Warrior -> Warrior (at size 5 we can build them in 1 turn)
Teoti Warrior -> Archer
Texcoco Warrior -> Archer
Moving troops to the eastern border
Some scouting

IBT: nothing special

Turn 4, 1150 BC
Tenoch Warrior -> Settler
Founded Xochicalco west of Tenochtitlan. Production set to barracks, due in 10
Moving troops to the eastern border
Some scouting
Replaced spearman in Tenoch with warrior

IBT: finish road to horses
Korea wants 22 gold from us. I decline. They don't declare. Would've answered the question for our first victim.

Turn 5, 1125 BC
Calix Warrior -> Warrior
Traded with Vikings Map making and 10gp for Poly and HBR. Best trade I could make to get MM
Changed production in Teoti to Horseman
Some more troop movement towards the east

IBT: nothing special

Turn 6, 1100 BC
Tlaxcala Barracks -> Archer
Moving troops

IBT: research of Literature finished
Will research Republic next. We should be able to trade for Math and Republic will get us the rest.

Turn 7, 1075 BC
Trade Literature for Math and 80gp to Byzantines
Tenoch Settler -> Warrior
This Settler will move east to replace any chinese city that gets automatically razed
We now have 9 Archers and 1 Spearman ready at the eastern border. Time to get going.

By the way, a freaky white haired guy named Chichatoyotl spawned in our capital. Says he can build a Great Wonder in no time (well, short time).
Actual options:
Pyramids
Colossus
Lighthouse
Great Lib
Oracle
Artemis
Mausoleum

I'm for Artemis. This will automatically expand our borders and make keeping captured cities much easier. The Lib would be the other obvious choice.

a freaky white haired guy
:rotfl:
Looks like a good job so far Lullaby!

Earlier we had agreed on not buliding AA wonders, and I think we should abide by that. As much as I would love Artemis...

So that leaves us with three options
1.) Save him for later, Sun Tzu, or even Leo's. But I think while we keep him, we can't get a military leader, which is bad. (I could be wrong about this, though. I'll try to look this up later...)
2.) Use him for that scientific golden age thing. I've heard this was broken, but early on in my playing I used this and I thought I saw some effect... Better than nothing.
3.) Disband him.

What does everyone else think?

Definitely gonna keep track of this one, keep it up guys!

Great Library gives us little since we are nearly done with the AA, other than being able to turn research off and accumulate gold from now until education

c'mon guys, the obvious choice is to hook up ivory and build SoZ, but of course it is only 200 sheilds, so maybe not so obvious.

I would actually consider only the pyramids of those available, Artemis will expire shortly but could help, the pyramids is pretty powerful and saves the maintenance on already built granaries and i think it is the most powerful choice of those available.

i am against saving for sun tzu because although it would save the maintenance, a barracks is only 20 shields.

i am for Leo's because that is a very powerful wonder and would help us a lot, but if the no military leader thing is true I am against holding him.

i am also for keeping him until chivalry and building KT, if the military leader thing is not true.

i am completely against the scientific age thing, the pyramids is a much better choice and in the long run Leo's would prolly give a much bigger benefit in gold saved, IMHO.

so, to recap, I support: pyrmaids now; Leo's or KT if it will not prevent military leaders to hold the "freaky guy"

1) we need to verify about the military leader / scientific leader thing
2) after aforementioned verification we need to decide what is going to be done with the sci leader, i don't think an adequate decision can be made until this is verified

The Leader thing is confirmed. It works like this...an MGL can be created on an elite victory if you don't currently have any leaders of either type. SGLs can always be created.

There is a discussion at apolyton about it...here (http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=128849).

Edit: Oh yeah, I'm all for pyramids too, as long as everyone is ok with building an aa wonder when we said we wouldn't...

The way I see it, getting a wonder via leader isn't much different from capturing the wonder (which I think you are allowing in this game). It doesn't take valuable production away from your cities (well, just one turn), which is the main problem with building them (and the big reason behind learning not to rely on them).

If it were my game, I'd either build the Pyramids (if going for sheer value of the wonder) or find my unhappiest core city and build the Mausoleum, simply because it doesn't give you any sort of huge advantage in the game, but it's moderately useful and allows you to get those military leaders you're looking for. Personally, I hate the ToA because its effects are only temporary. I only build it if I lose out on some other wonder and the shields would otherwise be wasted. The SoZ is nice, but I find it difficult to use the ACs effectively. Probably because I need to improve my warmongering skills (so get on with the fighting, already)! :p

Bob

Wouldn't TGL be best for us to catch up in research and stay ahead? Pyramids wouldn't be so bad either, or TAW or Leos. Whoever thinks would benefit us the most go ahead and use the SGL.

okay, with the leader thing confirmed i say build SOMETHING now, we don't want to be prevented fropm getting military leaders to build armies. of course, i vote pyramids.

@Mach - the thing about building AA wonders is it is no efficient, there are better things to do with all those turns, if you can capture one or use a sci leader that is a different matter altogether. i don't think the purpose of the game was to completely avoid aa wonders, just we are warmongering (conquest / domination goal) and so we dont need to waste turns / shields on a wonder

@ whoknows: are we behind in tech? maybe i haven't been paying attention, but i thought we were in pretty good shape. between trading and pointy stick research and self research i don't think we're going to have much of a problem keeping up as long as we remember to stop sometime to build libraries and markets

@Lullaby - the decision is pretty much yours and you dont necessarily have to do anything right away because we are not actually fighting, but i reccomend picking a wonder and building it in the most logical place (where cultural expansion would help, and it might be hard to get cities in like near where all those mountains / volcanoes are with the iron but also easy to defend) and park the leader in that city until it is done with its production, no need to waste any shields.

Fighting will commence in two turns.

As this is a training game, it is more about learning then about winning. Rushing a wonder could destroy at least some of the challenge that leads to learning.

Instead of rushing a wonder, we could rush a lib, horseman or something like that.

As for wonders in general, I usually don't build any of them in the AA, except when going for cultural victory. I learned my lesson at that point.

By the way, we don't have to catch up in science right now. We are equal to egypt and byzantines and while these two will propably research currency and construction, we should go for republic and trade the other two in.

Turn 7, 1075 BC revisited
Fortified SGL in Tenoch. A wonder should be built in Tlatelolco, close to the iron, and this city is occupied for 3 turns building a granary. Of course, if we were to pick the Pyramids, the efford woud be wasted. But as I make the decision :lol: , I think Artemis will be built then.

IBT:
nothing special

Turn 8, 1050 BC
Teoti Horseman -> Horseman, due in 4
DECLARED WAR ON THE CHINESE!
Moving troops into chinese territory near Shanghai
Some scouting
Lux to 10%, Science to 70%, gaining 1gpt

IBT:
nothing special

Turn 9, 1025 BC
Tenoch Warrior -> Warrior
Calix Warrior -> Horseman
Tlatelolco Granary -> Artemis
Hurried Artemis
Some scouting

Destroyed Shanghai killing 1 Spear, losing 1 Archer
We should rebuild it one step closer to us, directly claiming the BG

IBT:
nothing special

Turn 10, 1000 BC
Tlatelolco Artemis -> Worker
Left one Archer as additional garrison at the point where the new city should be built. Moved the stack NW on its way to Tsingtau.
Started building roads to the designated city. Also moved the settler that way.
Lux set to 0, Science to 100, losing 9 gpt per round. With 187 gp in the treasury we can afford that. Republic will come in in 18 rounds.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LullabyAztecs1000BC.jpg

The next city should be founded within the red circle.
Tsingtau has great potential with two game and numerous BG. A perfect next target.

Nice job there Lullaby! I don't have much to say, except I agree with your city placement there.

It's not my place to decide, but I suggest we put TCS on permanent skip until he shows up. He didn't answer my pm, and he's only had one post in this thread, asking to join. But this is up to you, who.

Oh also, should we camp out and wait until Tsingtao grows to size 2 before we take it? With our free temples, the flip risk should be small, and it'll save us a settler. Anybody remember how long ago it was founded?

Should be at turn 1, 2 or 3 of my turn set. In turn 0 the settler was in that area.

If TCS1 does not show up within the next few hours or so go ahead and skip him. I don't know if he is still on a business trip or not, but if he does show up allow him to play his turn.

i will give him his 24 hours to show up and post a got it before i play, i think that is the right thing to do for now

@lullaby - i forgot to say good job on going to war, i pushed for it & IIRC you stated this was a weakness of yours so the archer rush might have been something you weren't really comfortable with

obviously i am upset about the choice of wonders . . . but i will get over it . . . maybe . . . if we capture the pyramids from somebody else soon :D

i don't think i will go after Tsingtao if i play next because when it does grow to size 2 China will prolly pop rush an archer or spear, so i think i will go after another city and then try to get Tsingtao in peace negotiations, that way i dont have to worry about the auto-raze

I don't have the save in front of me, but...if you leave Tsingtao behind and head for Bejing, will Tsing become their capital (@ size 2)? That would be bad; then we couldn't get it for peace...

I'm inexperienced at war, so I'm going to watch closely and learn...maybe after I see your turns, pred, I'll try to reproduce them...

I don't have the save in front of me, but...if you leave Tsingtao behind and head for Bejing, will Tsing become their capital (@ size 2)? That would be bad; then we couldn't get it for peace...

I'm inexperienced at war, so I'm going to watch closely and learn...maybe after I see your turns, pred, I'll try to reproduce them...

I have thought of that & I will be wary of that, i do not know if i will go for beijing or not depending upon this factor.

since TCS has not shown up consider this my got it and i plan to p[lay later tonight

Mach, pm me your email and i will make you a "special" turn log for the battles if you want with more detail, or shold i just post a really detailed turn log, don't others to get bogged down with a long turn log though

I'm inexperienced at war, so I'm going to watch closely and learn...maybe after I see your turns, pred, I'll try to reproduce them...

Mach, I would highly reccomend doing that after the series I just had, if you are inexperienced at war this last sequence could be an eye opener. When i opened the turn I would never have guessed what i would be able to do in 8 turns, & really only 4 turns because it took 4 turns of travel before I made any attacks on turn 5 . . .

turn log:

okay, preturn made a few changes and notations:

first of all, Tlatelolco (i feel) has been a little mismanaged, it will be a perfect worker factory with a little work, why did we not irrigate the incense and work that tile, it would be worth 2 food, a shield, and 2 commerce? we have to get to 5 fpt & 5 spt ASAP because our worker situation is absolutely pitiful, but that is just my opinion, a quick fix will be to irrigate the incense and a flood plains, worker will stop working grassland tile when it finishes the road

changed productin in several cities:

Techno from warrior to spear, Tlaxcala & Texcoco archer to spear, Calix horse to spear : want some fast defense in case of a chinese counter attack or in case someone decides to declare while our troops are occupied, in Calix, horse was 7 turns, spear 4 and it had no barracks.
reduced science rate from 100% (Rep 18 turns @ -9 gpt) to 80% (rep 22 turns @ -2 gpt)
traded literature to 3 different civs for gold: Egypt 88, Russia 51, Vikings 25, for a net of 164
noted the English were building pyramids in London :D this is good for us in 2 respects
also noted we are stronger than everyone except korea who are average

- Texcoco = spear -> horse; Tlatelolco borders expand

1 - 975: move stack towards beijing, note that Canton is size 2, settler / spear to city site, workers roading to city site; Byz discover construction

-Tenoch = spear -> settler, Teo = horse -> settler, Tlat = worker -> worker (Tenoch / Teo mm so tenoch settler in 3 / Teo in 4, tlat can be mm 4 2 turn worker right now after border expansion, but hurts commerce due to working mountain)

2 - 950: Tlacopan founded (warrior in 10 turns), spear fortified; horse goes to find the nearby barb camp; spear in tenoch fortifies to be settler escort; prepare to finish Tlat preparation for more efficient worker factory, stack moves toward Beijing

- Byz build Oracle

3 - 925: continue march to Beijing, note Rep in 17 & 0 gpt @ 80%

- Tlat = worker -> worker (will have to slow down worker build to maintain 5 citizens for proper 2 turn worker factory, Tlax = spear -> horse, Calix = spear -> barracks, Xoch = barracks -> warrior (need a few more for mps and later upgrades); Byz warrior trespasses

4 - 900: cannot boot Byz warrior, so instead I renegotiate peace for 57 gold (they give us 57 gold); fortified the spears for mp / def; horse finds barb camp on mountain, single barb has been lurking around for a couple turns; move stack to forest by Beijing; Rep 16 turns, -6 gpt

- Tenoch = settler -> horse (tenoch can now be an 8 turn horse / settler factory)

5 - 875: horse destroys barb camp and promotes to elite; attack Beijing with vet archers first, lose 2, 3rd vet archer kills spear, next vet archer kills spear, only one redlined spear remains, attack with horse because it has a longer shelf life and hope for promotion but get none; capture Beijing, citizen is unhappy, convert to scientist, production warrior; move horse and spear into Beijing, archers head towards Xinjan using former chinese roads; Rep in 14 -1 gpt up from -6 gpt thanks to capture of beijing; Canton now chinese capitol

- Chinese warrior shows up west of Xoch; Teo = settler -> horse (can also do 8 turn settler / horse) just realized there aint much land left so maybe settlers not a big priority soon

6 - 850: move wounded archer into Beijing; Archer leave Tlat to defend Xoch plus 2nd warrior will be built before chinese warrior gets there; Teo settler gets escort from Tlax spear

- chinese archer from canton approaches Beijing for attack

7 - 825: kill chinese archer w/ wounded archer from Beijing; horse is healed, leaves Beijing using chinese roads to attack and destroy Nanking which was guarded by a spear, split archers 2 head for Xinjian, 2 head for Chengdu

- Tlat = worker -> worker (after some mm it is now set up for a perfect 2 turn worker factory, after every worker is built just check and make sure citizens are working the right tiles to get 5 fpt & 5 spt, these tiles are: irrigated flood plains wheat, irrigated floodplains, 2 mined plains, and irrigated desert incense), Xoch = warrior -> horse

8 - 800: archer attacks Xinjian defended by warrior & loses, 2nd archer defeats warrior and destroys the city; Atzapotzalco founded very close to Chengdu (which has dyes) production set to warrior; Beijing citizen is no longer unhappy, put him to work; horse capture worker in land formerly belonging to Nanking; silks are hooked up;


-moved settler to hills where i had planned to build another city

-negotiate peace with China, they give us Chengdu and Tsingtao, leaving them with only 1 city, Canton

I know it is only 8 turns, but has been a busy 8 & I am calling it quits, special thanks to lullaby for putting me in very good position and kicking off the war

i went ahead and posted a somewhat detailed turn log because it was not that involved, no bombardment units, small stack, simple battles. i thought about building some cats, but if we are going to use horses cats will slow them down, it can be done, but not best combination.
-i do not reccommend hooking up iron yet, we can get a few more warriors for mps first, we were planning to use horses anyway.
-i guess the next player (Mach?) could open diplomacy with China and boot that warrior from next to Xoch.
-be wary of that warrior barb near our wounded horse, i was trying to get the horse back to a city with a barracks to heal, archer near Xoch might be used now to attack the barb, but i would lead him to flat lands instead of the mountains, is everyone aware of the barbarian bug and how to exploit it?
-i reccomend destroying china when the 20 turns are up unless they suddenly plop down several more cities, i highly recommend guarding our rep, this means keeping peace with China & the Byz until those deals expire

i could have gotten Tsintao in peace negotiations right after the capture of Beijing, however i wanted to settle near the dyes and if china settled in that area i was going to make sure to either destroy that city or get it in peace negotiations, when the settler / spear moved to the hills sure enough i spotted the chinese spear / settler right by the dyes.

i will post a pic shortly

also, i did a LOT of mm, especially concerning Techno & Teo, tried to emphasize commerce where possible without affecting production or growth and used close city placement to often switch citizens from one city to another. still an mm headache, but we have 2 lux, a third available, temples in every city, that means once the dyes get hooked up with 2 mps per city we can have 8 citizens with no happiness problems, when we switch to republic we can still support 6 citizens with no happiness problems.

oh, & i almost forgot about that horse barb by chendu, that sucks, he will sack our city next turn, i had no idea he was there until after the peace negotiation, nothing we can do about it.

Great job Predesad. Could you send me an email with how you effectively attacked etc. because I do lack military experience like