AG8 -my first Sid SG- ended with a win. I then tried a more random Sid Space game -AG12- and we lost big time. But it was an interesting game nevertheless. I want to try this variant one more time.

VARIANT RULES, ETC...
-Space Race is the only victory type that counts as a win, but all standard victory types are enabled.
-Sid level
-Map size in standard, barbarians are roaming. The rest is...random!
-OK, random... except for the fact that I will play 25 turns on a map to ensure that we have a fighting chance.

BANNED TACTICS
These tactics are banned in my SG's. I got my inspiration from RBCiv, with a few slight differences:

"Phony Peace Treaty": Making Peace Treaties without having the intention to stay at peace, just to get cheap techs, cities or money.

"Palace Jump"; Jumping the palace by disbanding the capital. Rushing a palace or building it brick by brick is OK.

"Mass troop jumping": When you give away a city to another tribe, all the troops from that city are transported to your capital. This can be exploited. Especialy in scenarios where you need to take an important city (for example a possible 20K city) and after that want to get your troops home safely. It is OK to give away a city with up to two defenders in it.

"RoP Rape": Using Right of Passage to move whole armies into attack position.

"Throwaway Cities": It is possible to go everywhere by settling, moving a setter one tile further in, abandoning the old city, founding a new one, etc...etc... A city shouldn't be abandoned in the same turn as it is settled.

"Resource Piracy": Sitting on resources or deny a civ access to a tile inside the borders of the rival while at peace.

"Seed Corn": It is not allowed to buy the LAST TWO workers from the AI before 1000 BC.

"Negative cash research": The penalty of negative cash is only one unit. So there are cases where this can be worthwile. Science spending must be lowered when the cash would go below zero.

"Great Library slingshot": When you capture the Great Library city before you have Education and keep it one turn, you will get ALL the technologies known by at least two other tribes. You can get from the Middle Ages into the Modern Age with this tactic. The Great Library slingshot is not a valid tactic in my SG's. You are allowed to capture the Great Library city as one of a number of cities to weaken the owner. But it can't be a campaign to capture this city alone, hold it for a turn and then abandon it. THIS IS A BIGGIE IN THIS GAME!

Other tactics:
Things that I didn't name but are in the spirit of what I mention above I would like to have discussed.

PLAYERS
Grs (indefinite skip)
Doc Tsiolkovski
Aggie
Mark1031
LKendter
Microbe


roster is full

24hrs to post a "got it" notice, and up to 48hrs after that to finish and post your turns. I will start with 25 turns. Next up can take 15/20 turns, and the next leader 10/15, then 10 each turn after that.

Our start! We are the English! Settle on the spot? Build curragh first?

And who wants to start this one?

People who can join should either have beaten Sid or difficult Deity variants.
Well I definitely have the difficult deity variants down. 5CCC wins are never easy. A few of my other ideas are even more crazy.


Settle on the spot?
If I read the map correctly that one square is a LAKE and we can irrigate the 3 wheats for +5 growth - YES.


Build curragh first?
Very had to call. If I understand correctly the map type is random. I can't decide without confirming that.


And who wants to start this one?
:confused: I thought you were going to do the initial 25?

:confused: I thought you were going to do the initial 25?

Yes, I said that. But I had four initial tries which stranded somewhere between turn 5 and 20. This took a lot of time. So I decided to play it with more speed and less accuracy. Only for the sake of determing how we wopuld do after 25 turns. It took me another 4 tries to get this one. And since I now know how the first 25 play I think it's best for me to be 2nd or 3rd...

I'll play if you like. I always like a Sid challenge.

Settle on spot: yes.
Curragh first: I would say no. It does not look like a very small island and since we do not know this is an archipelago (I guess checking with seed beast is a cheat?!), I would prefer to find a spot for our 2nd city fast.

Are we trying to build the GL?

(I guess checking with seed beast is a cheat?!),
It is Aggie's call, but IMO - YES.


Are we trying to build the GL?
Has it ever been done at Sid?

Yes - read my sig :)

@Mark: welcome! It's great to have you in the team.

@grs: I don't like us using things like seed beast to check. But I think you are right regarding an early expansion above all.

@LKendter: I have built the TGL on Sid on an archi map. But it sounds very early for that discussion. I prefer to expand fast (EDIT: I mean fast not first!). I know that TGL should be decided upon first. Let's see in 30-40 turns.

The GL is very doable starting with alphabet although no guarantee. It must be executed flawlessly to have a chance. IMO if we build the GL we win. If not we might win. I would give it top priority. IMO curgah first build then hopefully find someone to get pottery from for settler factory. Research definately writing min then Lit @ max or timed to GL build. We need to find a fresh water site for the GL city.

Ehm, forgot to post the save!

IMO curgah first build then hopefully find someone to get pottery from for settler factory.

We start with Pottery :) and Alphabet :) So that is not the reason for a curragh. But early contact is key at Sid. You want to be able to participate in the tech brokering. Just like expanding fast in the early game. You don't want to see all the land go to the AI. We can't build a settler immediately because we won't grow to 3 fast enough. So I in the end do vote for a curragh and then settler, granary, settler.

EDIT: then again, a granary is paying of after 5 or 6 settlers. We may not have the time for it. So I flip-flop to curragh-settler-settler-settler... Depends on how early we get contact though.

:hmm:
Now we need someone to volunteer, or be "volunteered" for the first turns.

True. I am happy with any of you. You are all deity++ players. I say that like this because it's late for me and I'm going to bed. If someone feels up to playing the first 25 just post a got it and go ahead.

I like us to discuss the situation after 25 turns though and will create a final roster after that.

I'll take the honors - got it :)

Checking in.
I'd go with a Curragh first as well; a Warrior won't save our neck, and the Curragh will explore + contact faster.
Curragh-Warrior-Settler.

And England is a great choice.

I did a mixture of all suggested. Just a word on my wish for a warrior. He was not thought as a military unit, but as a scout on land.

4000BC: Worker e reveals a hut on a river and incense. London settled on the spot, starts writing at min and a curragh.

3950BC: Worker starts to irrigate the wheat, then road it.

3600BC: London curragh - settler. I decide to pop the hut with the worker. We will not lose much due to that, because of the whale we get soon and I need some recon. As we have no unit the barbs have, we won't get barbs. Lux to 10%.

3550BC: We get maps from the hut, which is good (I think this is the first time I say that). Maps reveal lots of diamonds, 2 more huts, 1 barb camp. Exploring curragh spots another barb camp

3450BC: Curragh finds a crossing to the north.

3300BC: Curragh spots a green border.

3250BC: London size 3 - lux tp 30%. Contact Greece - they are up ceremonial burial and bronze working.

3200BC: London settler - settler (for now).

3050BC: York founded on the incense can share wheat with our capital.

3000BC: A Hittites scout visits us. They are up ceremonial burial and bronze working too, the Greeks have learned the wheel.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ag14-3000BC.jpg

London curragh - settler. I decide to pop the hut with the worker... As we have no unit the barbs have, we won't get barbs.
:eek: The Curragh counts as unit! Dumb luck :lol:.

:eek: The Curragh counts as unit! Dumb luck :lol:.

I always wondered about that.

The city spacing seems a little tight (six tile overlap). For a space race and for Sid land grab I would go for greater spacing. Nice to have 2 lux nearby and some rivers.

The Curragh counts as unit! Dumb luck. Hmm, I remember that different and never had "bad" luck with it, but I certainly did not do it often enough to have results of any statistical value.

The city spacing seems a little tight (six tile overlap). For a space race and for Sid land grab I would go for greater spacing. I agree; I just did not want to wander to far with an unescorted settler on an unexplored map.

Just another thought about York. IMHO it is in a good position to be the GL city. It can use 2 wheats, a bg and has fresh water. It could easily get some forests too. That is not that great, but considering the surrounding territory it seems ok.

Since I prefer SEA Civs, I've popped enough Barbs while having only Curraghs to know that for sure. Guess why I insisted on Curraghs in RaR having no combat values ;).
Spacing is fine, the terrain around us will force us to a non-optimal pattern anyway.

I always wondered about that.

The city spacing seems a little tight (six tile overlap). For a space race and for Sid land grab I would go for greater spacing. Nice to have 2 lux nearby and some rivers.

Agreed, especially fter seeing another Sid game doing AW spacing.

We need more territory and we can always backfill.

Now we wait for an official roster from Aggie.


Lets see if any of the cash from the writing min science run survives...

Lets see if any of the cash from the writing min science run survives... I am not sure what you mean with "survive", but writing is 480 beakers. 480 / 50 turns = 9.6. How can we make more than 9.6 beakers average during the first 50 turns? This is no min run, it is reseaching writing as fast as possible. We need masonry (should be tradable once we find a civ without alphabet) for the palace pre build and literature.

I am wondering how much of the money will be demanded away...

Very solid start grs. And you were very lucky with that popped hut :) You went another way than I did, so I still have some info that counts as a spoiler. I will be 3rd or 4th in line then. I'm guessing that it is best that DocT plays next, being in Europe and all. But I see microbe on-line as well, so if he wants... go ahead :)

I agree with the wider spacing and then backfill. I also like to see a warrior to scout the Hittite area.

ROSTER
grs
Doc Tsiolkovski --- up
Aggie ------------ on deck
Mark1031
LKendter
microbe

I've played two SGs tonight, and there is a 3rd, so I'll sit back in the line. :)

No problem. I guess we then can stick with the roster above. Gives us time for a little discussion still.

Got it.

Engeland, 3000BC
Inherited: No changes.

IBT: Hittites learn Masonry from the hut.

Turn 1: 2950BC
IBT: Hittites learn/pop WC.

Turn 4: 2800BC
York completes Warrior, we need a Worker badly.

Turn 7: 2670BC
Curragh finds another save crossing
IBT: …and spots the first Barb Galley :eek:

Turn 8: 2630BC
IBT: London (Settler)->Granary (?)
Sparta (!) completes Colossus. Sparta is size 3, has a Forrest game, and nothing but unimproved Plains otherwise :lol:.

Turn 9: 2590BC
Greece has learned Masonry as well.
Meet Korea; up BW and Warrior Code, lacks Pottery – in other words, they should be alone on a not-so-great landmass (any other AI starts with either Pottery or Masonry).
Find two Cows S of our cities, will send the Settler there.

Trading time:
Pottery gets us Bronze Working and 50gp from Korea.
196gp and 5gpt get us Masonry from Hittites (“Highway Robbery? – Indeed.”)
Could get WC and 10gpt from Korea for Masonry; hold back for now. Don’t think they’re researching Masonry (I’d guess CB), otherwise we wouldn’t get a tech for Masonry.

Turn 10: 2550BC
Make that 3 Cows.
Korea still offers all they have except IW for Masonry. Keep an eye on that.
*Important*: A Barbarian Galley is at the Fishes 5NW from our Dingi.
Settler unmoved, discussion before:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG14_2550.jpg

Blue is simply a good spot, but not adjacent to fresh water. We’re pretty screwed about productive spots at rivers.
Red seems the only spot that has a shot at the Great Library. It’ll have a Cow, 2 BGs, some Forests, and is at the lake. Of course, we’d also need a city at Yellow to pull in the Cow unless we want a Temple first. If we go with a Temple, then yellow may as well be moved 1S of where the Warrior stands. And, York should to relocate on the other side of the River later.

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG14__2550BC.zip)

I would go with eventually moving York. It can spit warriors and settlers till then. It looks like a fair amount of land grab potential so I think the granery might be worth it in London. I would see when it gets to settler # of shields how intense the land grab competition is.

Red seems the only spot that has a shot at the Great Library.
I think York is better for the GL.

It has lower corruption - saves 10% lux (at least from time to time).
It has lower waste - will save us at least a shield.

It can work:

center: 2s / +2f
irr. wheat: 1s / +1f
mined bg: 2s / 0f
mined bg: 2s / 0f
forest: 2s / -1f
forest: 2s / -1f
mined plains: 2s / -1f
mined grass: 1s / 0f
irr. plains: 1s / 0f
irr. plains: 1s / 0f

That gives it:

12 unc. spt at size 7
13 unc. spt at size 8
14 unc. spt at size 9

And we could still access the 2nd wheat for 1 more shield (either mine it or work it irrigated and mine and work the hill).

I do not think Blue could beat that - especially considering waste and corruption.

@Doc: I seems I again have to save a city I founded from being disbanded "later". Remember Reims :)

EDIT: And yes, the GL city needs a temple first. We will join workers and it will get much bigger than any other city, so we need the temple.

@Doc: I seems I again have to save a city I founded from being disbanded "later". Remember Reims
I founded Reims :p

Blue is out due to corruption, no question. But York?
It may get the same number of shields after expanions like red dot without a temple, but the real problem is that it is a mediocre site on the long run. I don't want a first ring city with that much overlap, espcially when on the other side of the river is a way better spot. That doesn't say it was a bad choice do found there, for now this is a great spot (sharing Wheat with London, bringing in a Lux). But if we grab the GLib there, we will never be able to move it without wasting the culture.

And Reims annoyed me to death in Bugs3, it always stayed a mediocre city with not more than 40spt in the endgame, but rank #1. CxxC placement is simply against my taste for the core. Outside the first or second ring, fine.

I founded Reims :p Had to look it up - you are right. I'd say as a compromise it was a joined-venture as I dotmapped it ;)

To make things better, guess what lux Reims was founded on :crazyeye: .

Ok, back to the point. I guess I made clear why I founded York where it is. TBH, the Hittites on our isle are a major problem. Either we get the GL and them of the isle afterwards or the game is over no matter what. York seems to me as the best chance to get the GL. If we get an island on our own later, we have a good chance to pull it off - with or without York. It won't be the cause we lose this game, if we get that far.

ROSTER
grs
Doc Tsiolkovski --- just played
Aggie ------------ up
Mark1031 -------- on deck
LKendter
microbe

Got it. I have to read through the write-up and comments first.

IHT: I move the settler one south, in the direction of the red dot.

IT: Livy completed his Great History of the World. The largest countries are:

1-Aztecs
2-Koreans
3-Greeks
4-Portuguese
5-Egyptians
6-Ottomans
7-Hittites!
8-English

Turn 1 (2510 BC) Curragh goes south, settler too. So does the warrior. Make that 4(!) cows... Korea doubts the Masonry - Iron Working deal. We haven't got the money to buy IW, which the Hittites lack.

Turn 2 (2470 BC) Settler reached the spot, warrior goes east, curragh goes south. Koreans still want to make the same deal as before.

IT: York-warrior->warrior.

Turn 3 (2430 BC) Korea knows The Wheel. Which is unknown by the Hittites. Masonry and 4 gold gives us The Wheel and Warrior Code from Korea. On Sid I see this as a luxury. The Hittites give us 258 gold and Ceremonial Burial for The Wheel!
The Hittites know Mystisicm, Korea knows IW. We have CB over Korea. Trades are not possible at the moment. No horses close to home.

Nottingham is founded and a barb hut with two barb warriors is revealed 2 SW of the place :( The warrior from York runs to Nottingham.

IT: Hittites start the Oracle and Korea start the Pyramids.

Turn 4 (2390 BC) Korea knows IW and not CB. CB and 154 gold gives us Iron Working. Iron Working gives us Mysticism and 63 gold from Greece. We could get 178 gold for Mysticism from Korea but I wait.
Our warrior spots a horse near the Hittite city directly east of us. The other warrior reaches Nottingham.

IT: The Greeks start the Oracle.

Turn 5 (2350 BC) Korea now has 181 gold for Mysticism. By the way...we are the tech leaders :)

Turn 6 (2310 BC) No new options regarding deals. The curragh is still chased by a galley (but is as fast) and the warrior goes further east.

IT: York - warrior->settler.

Turn 7 (2270 BC) Warrior fortifies.

IT: Nottingham: warrior->worker.

Turn 8 (2230 BC) Korea wants to give a little more now, 185 gold. I still say no.

Turn 9 (2190 BC) :sleep:

Turn 10 (2150 BC) Warrior reaches London. The Koreans still want to pay 187 gold for Mysticism. No other tribes or techs are found. Please keep that curragh on track. We HAVE to explore. That is our only way to advance into the tech tree. Except from a Great Library that is. Looks like a pelago map. Big difference with BUGS3 is our neighbour on this island.

Interesting game...Biggest issue is obvisouly what land we can grab. I'm happy that we are not alone on the island (EDIT: That would make the game easier than Sid and almost surely a win). This reminds me a bit of AG12, our failed first mission. But then again...We now are tech leaders!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG14-2150BClands.jpg

2150 BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG14-2150BC.zip)

ROSTER
grs
Doc Tsiolkovski
Aggie ------------ just played
Mark1031 -------- up
LKendter --------- on deck
microbe

24 hrs to post a "got it" notice, and up to 48 hrs after that to finish and post your turns.

Settling Priorities:
1) The Cows
2) "My" blue dot
3) Iron!
We need to prepare to fight the Hittites not too far in the future; they have Horses...

Fighting the Hittites. Yes most probably. But let's first get as much land as possible, stay in the tech race (curraghs and clever trading) and get the TGL. Your settle spots sounds good.

It's not that I want to go to war soon, I only fear Mursilis wants to use his shiny 3MCs sooner or later...

Yes, I realise that this is a big threat. Especially when he has no space for expansion anymore. Expect our lands.

Atleast the hittite UU cant enter mountains with no roads.. so you can take advantage of this to make their chariots easier to kill

True; would be even better if you could plant Jungle like in Civ2 :lol:.
Unfortunately, there aren't too many mountains around our cities. But we should abstain from roading the ones we have.

you have a wall of mountains between you and hittites that stretch all the way up to the iron.. a lowly defended city by the iron would have a good shot at drawing troops up through the long passage between water and mountains

OK Got it. If this is a Pelego map and we are alone with Hittites then we are in for trouble. Ainy thoughts. I think with Pelego map I'd be less concerned with the GL as our brokering should keep us up. Still would be nice though. Preping for and avoiding war as long as possible would be in order. I would think blocking Hittite in a not to agressive way and grabing the strategic positions would be in order. Also, if this is a Pelego map it would be my inclination to start wars with all the isolated civs to slow them down in research but that is a little unorthadox so I will not do it unless I hear support. I would actually wait to see if Hittites meet anyone and start war with them and then sign up alliance. Also trade gpt with Hittites. Basically anything to stave off the big one until we are ready.

@Mark1031: While I agree with you 100% regarding the troubles we may get with the Hittites I want to remind you of AG12. That also was a pelago map with us and Germany on one island. They never declared. That's no guarantee at all, but still it shows that war might not be happening. That said, we need to defend ourselves vs a Sid opponent.

EDIT: I agree that our trade opportunities as a seafaring civ are very important, making TGL less vital (though still very very nice). I'm hesitant regarding joining forces vs the Hittites. Again I look at AG12 where it took very long before we were ready to attack Germany.

Something you could consider is to build a few archers and go after the nearby hittite town with horses. Its unlikely it is defended by more than 1 or 2 units at this point, and it looks like it is far enough away from rest of hittite towns for you to make peace before the main hittite forces can reach you. If that is their only horse supply, you would gain the upper hand if you can capture it (or replace with settler if autorazed)... if attack fails.. then you only lost 4-5 archers so no big deal.

Also, if this is a Pelego map it would be my inclination to start wars with all the isolated civs to slow them down in research but that is a little unorthadox so I will not do it unless I hear support. I am not sure this is such a good idea unless we are very sure a) they can't reach us (mm, tgl and seafaring considered) and b) we do not need them as trading partners. I would consider refusing a demand if the above are sure.

Pre turn switch worker->warrior in Nottingham.

IBT: Portuguese complete pyramids

2110: London Settler->warrior, Heads for Cows.

IBT Ottomans complete Oracle

2070: Hittites have HBR available. There is a 2 tile choke to Hittite lands. Unfortunately they have a city near it but I’m diverting 2 warriors more to try and block. Lux to 20%.

2030 zzz

1990: zzz

1950: York settler->warrior, London warrior->settler. Lux->0.

1910: 3 warriors in place near choke.

1870: zzz

1830: Found Hastings by cows. Korea just got Math but Myst and our treasury is doubtful. Writing in soon , we can also do deals then.

1790: zzz

1750: Trying to block Hittite settler pair. Writing in, Embassy with Hittites. They are still annoyed. Writing+8gpt gets us HBR. I did this now to avoid demands and to have a gpt deal with Hittites (He is still annoyed sheesh). We can get Math and $$$ from Korea but I would wait until Mursailis has something else to trade for. We will have to give in to all demands until we are ready for war so if we get up on him we would just be extorted.

Settler pair is heading south for somewhere on the coast but is competing with Hittite pair. Keep blockade as best possible at the choke. Next settler in 3 should grab the gems location. I think we need a military plan soon but for now I guess we just continue the land grab gambit and keep our fingers crossed.

I agree with the last trade deal and the remark that we might not want to buy Math for monopoly prices. Good to see that the Hittites still only have 1 city near us. Also nice is that volcano next to their capital :D

That curragh should go west, then north imho. We need more contacts!

EDIT: Good to see those warriors blocking the Hittite settlers.

ROSTER
grs
Doc Tsiolkovski
Aggie
Mark1031 -------- just played
LKendter --------- up
microbe ---------- on deck

24 hrs to post a "got it" notice, and up to 48 hrs after that to finish and post your turns.

Note Hittites lack horses. If there is only the one on the landmass (likely) then we should definately prepare for war before he can connect as this will deny him his UU and golden age. A few archers may be in order.

Grs
Doc Tsiolkovski
Aggie
Mark1031
LKendter (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)

@Mark: That's a good point. Looking at the save now... We shouldn't forget to start a TGL prebuild at one point. Lit is 50 turns away, but still...

I am up to 1700BC and don't want to go afoul of you worker purchase rules. Is it OK to purchase a single Hittite worker?

I am up to 1700BC and don't want to go afoul of you worker purchase rules. Is it OK to purchase a single Hittite worker?
The rules say you cant buy the last 2 workers from AI, and at SID the AIs start with 5 workers.. so you should be ok ;)

I think that buying the worker from the Hittites should be OK indeed. It is a safe bet that they have more than 2.

Sorry for delaying the game so much, but I think I am the weak link on the team when it comes to Sid. In addition, we are in a position I fear the most. Sharing a landmass with a single Civ in the situation I hate to play the most.

Would you try to settle in the south based on the expected expanded borders?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-574.jpg

Settling 1 nw of our warrior would only make us miss a bg, which would be wasted for many turns. I would say settle closer and have a look what's beneath those forests.

I would like to grab as much of the fertile land as possible. Yhis is where the competition is and we can backfill the North Also, I'm assuming Hattusa is a tempory blight on our land. I'm actually thinking we may need an early war with archers to take that city and hopefully make peace before their main force gets north.

I think we should go for it. We can avoid a little cultural pressure...

And regarding the situation: at least we are doing well in the tech race and have decent chances to grow (an army). I think that we will be able to get rid of the Hittite threat.

1750 BC
100% science barely dents to cost of literature so I stick with the minimum research plan.

I spent some of the cash to get embassies. Seoul is size 4, just a temple, and 8 troops inside. They are screwed with no iron or luxuries connected.

I build an embassy with Greece. Athens is size 2, just a temple, ivory for a luxury with no connected resources, 8 troops inside, and 2 settlers looking for a home.


1725 BC
I see a big old stack of Hittite warriors heading south. I think that annoying barb camp by Hasting is dead in a few turns.
(IT) Greece demands Horseback Riding it gets it. It is way to early have hostile AIs.
I see barbarians GALLEYS. Some other group of civs is up to map making. :eek:


1700 BC
I purchase a worker from the Hittites for $128.
(IT) The warrior blockage failed as the Hittites built a city right in front of us.


1675 BC
A settler is completed and waiting to move. However, I see a visible barb to the north and have no spare escorts. I am going to delay a turn rather them leave a city open with a Hittite warrior stack near us. Our southern warrior / settler pair is now confused where to go. The Hittites place in such a way that I can't build the city I was planning.

I ship Writing and Mysticism to Korea for Math and $226.
(IT) Our curragh survives a barb galley without a scratch.


1650 BC
The Hittites have another worker for sale. If this were an LK game I would buy it. However, I am not going to delay the game again to find out about buying a second worker in the AG series.
(IT) The Aztecs complete Temple of Artemis.
Portugal completes The Great Lighthouse.


1625 BC
Canterbury is formed at the location suggested by Grs.
(IT) The warrior in Canterbury barely beats attacking warrior. A barbarian horse just appeared next to Nottingham.
The Ottomans complete the Great Wall. We are really behind that group of civs.


1600 BC
Writing and Math gets us Polytheism and $102 from Greece. I ship Polytheism to the Hittites and take all $358 of there gold. I have no idea what good all this cash will do. We need a cash rush government, or to meet the other continent.

An attacking warrior has much better odds, and I kill that barb horseman. I do break my no naked cities rule for a turn. This forces luxury tax to 20% for a turn.
(IT) Portugal completes the Hanging Gardens.


1575 BC
The RnG is with me, and our warrior destroys the barb camp near Nottingham.
(IT) One turn in the ocean and our curragh dies. :(


1550 BC
Coventry is formed at Doc's blue dot.
I kill the last barb in our lands, but lose a warrior.


==========================

Summary:
Do we build another settler out of York, or swap to temple. I think we need more tiles to pre-build for the GL.


Grs (on deck)
Doc Tsiolkovski
Aggie
Mark1031
LKendter
Microbe (currently playing)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG14-1500BC.zip

Tough luck on that curragh :( We need a new one to find the rest of the world! But the barb galleys are already there for 30 turns or so. DocT mentions them as well in his turnlog.

I think York should go for temple -> TGL now. But that's just me.

See LKendters'post for the roster :)

Preturn: so..I don't understand. This is Sid and we are the tech lead.

I find we are wasiting those cattle tiles. I have to MM around to make better use of them. Can't afford waste at Sid. Hire a scientist in Hastings.

York continues to build settler, and Nottingham will be our GL city. With the cattle it's already at 3fpt/5spt. We need to mine the cattle asap.

IBT Ottoman builds MoM.

1475BC: I switch Canterbury to temple and start chopping. We need some culture there.

1425BC: Found Warwick to claim the gems.

1400BC: Hittie has Map Making. No trade for monopoly tech. I'll buy it once someone else learns it.

1375BC: Greece has Philosophy. IBT Greece builds Zeus.

1350BC: Massive Uprising near Warwick.

1250BC:

Note the blockade to Hittie setters.

EDIT: we could probably pull a 2-fer for Map Making and Philosophy, but I suspect AI are research Map Making like mad, so I'd rather wait until it's no longer monopoly.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG14-1250BC.jpg

Massive uprisings? So we are NOT near the tech leaders! That's why I was asking for curraghs... I see a white dot north of our island (on the minimap). Who are they??? And what tribe settled just north of Greece?

EDIT: OK, OK... so we could build the TGL and avoid contact to get ourselves more techs once we meet others beyond Education... Is that a way to go? It's not a tactic I like very much, but I'm not against it at all...

With at least two civs in the middle ages we are not sure of our TGL anyway.

ROSTER:
Grs ------------ up
Doc Tsiolkovski -- on deck
Aggie
Mark1031
LKendter
Microbe ------- just played

Massive uprisings? So we are NOT near the tech leaders! That's why I was asking for curraghs... I see a white dot north of our island (on the minimap). Who are they??? And what tribe settled just north of Greece?


Good eyes. It's Portugal. I didn't even notice them.

We have a curragh due in 2 turns and only need to survive one turn to meet it. Or it will find us.

Got it and will very probably post tonight.

Massive uprisings? So we are NOT near the tech leaders!

I knew were we behind on my turns just reports of the wonders below:
Portugal completes the Hanging Gardens.
The Ottomans complete the Great Wall. We are really behind that group of civs.

It sounds like it was the typical currency as the last tech completed.

Oh well, being behind like this is nothing to worry about...yet. But I do find it a pity that we didn't explore that much. I understand that we can't do everything we want at once (grab as much land as possible, build up our military, prepare the TGL build, explore). But as seafaring civ one of our keys to success is meeting everyone asap.

We will not get the GL, I can almost guarantee that. If other civs are in the MA then we will certainly loose that race. I frequently loose it to a Sun Tzu cascade. We will require about 8-10 turns on top of the pre build which we haven’t even started That is a very fast tech pace even for Sid if this is really a Pelago Map. There must have been 3 or 4 civs on one Island. I would say we just go full on military save money, broker in our neighborhood and go the warrior upgrade route once we get the iron hooked up. If we take over the whole Island we should be in a good position to dig out of the tech hole. I would build only cats/raxs and warriors no exploring, no culture we will need every unit we can get. I think it is our best chance given the current circumstances.

I would have to agree with Mark1031 here.. if you can kill off hittites you are in a good position.. there seems to be atleast 3 luxes on your starting island, so you will be in an excellent trading position.. and since you are english aswell, you should have no problems making enough gold to buy your way to tech parity

I agree the prebuild is almost nonsense now. Unless we have 299spt plus one turn of production in the box at turn 100, it's a waste to even try.
I wouldn't skip exploration, but otherwise I fully agree with Mark - Warriors, cash, Cats, Iron.

OK, so we start to realise that the TGL is almost certainly impossible. I fully agree with DocT on what to do now. So agreeing on the points Mark made, except for exploring. I don't understand why it won't be a good idea to have about three curraghs to know the rest of the world. Tech prices will drop and we will be in a position to go for 2fers etc... THE way to keep us in the tech race I'd say.

Ok, I will slot in some curraghs and not start a GL prebuild.

Good eyes. It's Portugal. I didn't even notice them.

We have a curragh due in 2 turns and only need to survive one turn to meet it. Or it will find us.

I don't know what you mean exactly, but if you are pointing to the fact that we have to survive crossing the sea, than this is not the case. We can get to Luanda safely...

I don't know what you mean exactly, but if you are pointing to the fact that we have to survive crossing the sea, than this is not the case. We can get to Luanda safely...

OK OK, we are seafaring.

Warriors, cash Well I left the game plenty of cash. The problem is all of the warrior we have are regulars. We really should build a barracks and get some vets.

Yes no exploring was a dumb comment. I'm just very worried about war with a single Sid AI that is bigger than us and was trying to say just focus everything on offensive military. I wasn't thinking about the tech cost issue-very important. :blush:

I agree with LK that Rax and some growth in the core are important now. We have enough $$ to upgrage 15 warriors and they should all be vets. The regs can be used as decoys to draw out other units. They will have horses which will be a pain. If we can draw their forces out to attack a stack of warriors on a mountain we might be able to wipe out a sizable force with our swords. I'm not sure whether I prefer cats or archers for the bombard. We won't really be able to build too many of these and I suspect they will mostly be for counters on our SoD. In this case the archer (regs) is nice as it could be that last offensive unit in a stack needed to take a city.

They will have horses which will be a pain. If we can draw their forces out to attack a stack of warriors on a mountain we might be able to wipe out a sizable force with our swords.
Impossible. Hittites don't have Horsemen, they only have their crappy 3MC, and that one cannot attack units on mountains at all.
But because of this I also would get up a couple of Archers - those can hide on a mountain, unlike Cats.

Wow, that could be very useful. I've never fought against this unit. Will they come out to the base of a mountain with units on it thinking "must attack". Hopefully it's programmed better than that but it wouldn't surprise me.

grs, what's the status? You suggested that you would be able to play it two days ago...

grs, what's the status? You suggested that you would be able to play it two days ago... Yes, that was my got it. I read it is 24+48 and I will finish today in time.

@Aggie: I revisited my "Got it" and you are right, I am late, sorry. I had the deadline from my second post there in mind.

Pre: Sell horseback to Korea for 203g and 1gpt. York switched to barracks.

IBT: Hittites settler turns back. Korea demands polytheism. They are far away, so I say no and they say, ok just trying.

1225BC: --

IBT: London curragh - curragh. Nottingham temple - barracks. Hastings worker - worker.

1200BC: Greece has learned map making. We sell mathematics to the Hittites for map making + 88gold.

IBT: Warwick worker - worker.

1175BC: Newcastle founded - 1se of suggested spot to get Oasis - starts worker. Coventry changed to barracks.

IBT: A lone Hittites warrior fights barbs a barb camp with many horses in the north.

1150BC: 2 Barb galleys follow our curragh, nor 2 more block it, so we attack. 1 Barb galley sunken flawlessly.

IBT: Portugese curragh shows from the north. Barb galley dies to our curragh which is still undamaged and unpromoted.

1125BC: Portugal is in the middle ages, only misses Literature and embassy shows they have feudalism too. F7 shows their nice set of wonders (HG, GLight, Pyramids).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ag14-1000BC-portugese-embassy.jpg

IBT: Portugese found a city on our continent.

1100BC: Oxford founded as suggested near the iron - temple (?).

IBT: --

1075BC: --

IBT: Aztechs declare on Portugal.

1050BC: --

IBT: Volcano near Hattusas is now active :evil:. Korea now has currency.

1025BC: Polytheism to Korea for currency + 49 gold.

IBT: London galley - settler (?). Hittites stack shows :eek:. Either we are dead or they are going for Portugal - we should open the block!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ag14-1000BC-hittites-stack.jpg

1000BC: Hire a scientist in Nottingham (just as default setting).

Nottingham can do 10spt for an archer in 2 or a warrior each turn, but it will need 20% lux then. You have lots of trading opportunities. Please have a look at who-knows-whom before you do.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ag14-1000BC-f4.jpg

Either we are dead or they are going for Portugal
Interesting. How should they go for Portugal, when they don't even know each other ;)?
Make that 'Either we are dead or they are going for Barbs'...

ROSTER
grs--------------- just played
Doc Tsiolkovski --- up
Aggie ------------ on deck
Mark1031
LKendter
microbe

So we are still doing OK. We can get Philo from Greece for Currency and almost have our first archer ready :) A lot of work to do still until we are ready to attack. Portugal reached the Aztecs, so we should be able to meet them safely as well. Let's also get to the other two asap.

Henry has the Lighthouse, not sure if we can reach the Aztecs as well.
And, let's just wait until I've hit enter before claiming the game is goind well ;).
Need to finish my turns in the 7+1 Sid game before, though.

Forgot to check the lighthouse. OK, it might be more difficult then. But I keep saying that we are doing OK for a Sid game :p Regardless of what happens next!

Lets hope Mursilis blows his stack on that barb camp or pisses off Henry. I like our situation as long as war comes on our time table I think we are OK.

England, 1000BC

QSC stats :p :
9cities, total pop 21; 1 Barrack, 1 Temple; 7 Workers, 12 Warriors (all regular), 1 Curragh, 1 Galley.
Cities look fine: I assume the Settler from London is already meant to replace Hattusha.
We may form an Iron colony, instead of waiting for cultural expansion in the N (that’ll also save us from roading the Iron).
I suppose the Hittites are going for the Burgundian encampment near the Portuguese city, and I remove the blockade. I don’t like to have no per-turn deal with Mursilis. OTOH, I don’t want to lock us into 20 turns of peace…
Seeing we have no immediate need for Philo, I decide to gamble, and hope Greece goes for Construction, as usual.

Enter.
IBT: Yep, Hittites move N. Ack, 3 barb Horses run towards us. Our first Archer finishes.

Turn 1: 975BC
Move the Warrior out of Oxford, wouldn’t help against the Horses anyway.
IBT: :mad: We loose about 270gp.

Turn 2: 950BC
Zzz…
IBT: Hittites learn Philo as well. Vulcano erupts, but spares Hattusa.

Turn 3: 925BC
Gems connected…to Warwick.

Turn 4: 900BC
Finish the Temple in Canterbury with a well timed chop. We get our first Vet Warrior.
Istanbul completes Sun Tzu!

Turn 5: 875BC
Find another Portuguese island. See the first 3MC.
IBT: London Settler-> Marketplace (?)

Turn 6: 850BC
Zzz..

Turn 7: 825BC
IBT: The Hittite overkill takes out the barb Camp, and runs back S.

Turn 8: 800BC
Since Hittites now have some cash in addition to Philo, I trade Currency for Philo and 47gp.
Gems reac the core. Galley spots Aztec borders, cross fingers and hope it survives another turn.

Turn 9: 775BC
Contact Aztecs. Teno has ToA, 3 Luxuries, Iron and Horses. Pikes, and building a Cathedral. City is right S to Lisbon. Aztecs are a Republic. So, they are up Monarchy, CoL, Construction, Republic, Feud and Mono at least.

Tenochtitlan (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Teno.jpg)

IBT: Portuguese start Leo’s.

Turn 10: 750BC
Grrr…bad trading on my side. Hittites show up with CoL.
Spot yellow (Egyptian) borders next to the Aztec city. No contact, yet.

We have 5 Vet Warriors now, 2 more to complete IBT. 3 Archers.
Since we’re wasting shields everywhere except for Nottingham, we shouldn’t wait too long to connect Iron.
We have 1240gp; note that wouldn’t be enough for Construction, we still need to throw in gpt. Maybe after contacting Egypt. Our ships are both safe and chart inhabitant landmasses.
The Market in London can be switched to Rax; I just like markets in the capital.

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG14_750BC.zip)

Got it!

ROSTER
grs
Doc Tsiolkovski --- just played
Aggie ------------ up
Mark1031 -------- on deck
LKendter
microbe

EDIT: I too like markets and will connect the iron asap. Let's make this a sword rush instead!

I'd guess if we are lucky and contact both Egypt and Ottomans soon, we can afford to two-fer Construction to Hittites for CoL, and still upgrade all vet Warriors (should be about 10 by that time). Ottomans simply must be near Port/Aztecs, no way they could have researched all those techs without a SCI Civ (and Henry GAing some time ago).
Hittites have one source of Horses, and no Iron. Of course, the stack of regular Warriors is impressive...

AG14-750BC:

IHT: Our cities are MM-ed nicely and we indeed should await other contact before trading. Next turn we should see Egypt.

IT: Well, Egypt sends a galley to us! York, Nottingham: warrior->warrior. Hastings: barracks->warrior.

Turn 1 (730 BC) Most important news is that the Hittites still lack Construction. I first explore a bit to see if I can find the Ottomans, but then decide to trade. I pay the Aztecs 605 gold, 28 gpt for Construction. I then swap Construction and CoL with the Hittites.
Next thing I notice is that:
- the Aztecs have Republic, Monotheism, Engineering and Feudalism
- the Portuguese have Republic, Engineering and Feudalism
- the Egyptians have Republic, Engineering

This is interesting! I have enough money for an immediate steal from the Aztecs. If we fail we get war hapiness and 28 gpt back. 616 gold is needed. I do so and succeed! We take Monotheism.

I can get 51 gpt form Portugal for Mono and no more :( I wait though. The Aztecs are at war with Egypt and the the Portuguese and won't sell Mono. I hope to find the Ottomans first.

IT: Nottingham: warrior->warrior.

Turn 2 (710 BC) Egypt and Portugal still don't know Mono. Our galley contacts the Ottomans. They have Mono (even Theology), but the prices of Engineering and Feudalism will drop.

Still: no deal whatsoever is possible :( Except for the next that one I take: Monotheism for 59 gpt to Portugal. This does allow us to buy Engineering or Republic from Egypt. I go for Republic for Monotheism and 28 gpt.

Then I go into anarchy and we draw 8 turns.. We make 13 gpt and have 46 gold.

Turn 3 (690 BC) I forgot that embassies are not an option in anarchy :blush:

Turn 4 (670 BC) The Aztecs start Leo and know Theo...

Turn 5 (650 BC) Aztecs start Sistine and Ottomans go for Leo.

Turn 6 (630 BC) :sleep:

Turn 7 (610 BC) Still no other tribe knows Lit. We have 11 turns to go!

Turn 8 (590 BC) :sleep:

Turn 9 (570 BC) Portugal and Aztecs sign peace and Portugal now knows Theo.

IT: We are a Republic . Aztecs start Knights Templar.

Turn 10 (550 BC) To keep Nottingham at 10 spt we'd need to get lux to 20%. I mm-ed it this way, but next player could decdie against it. We are 1 turn from connecting the iron and getting a colony. We do however lack the money for a mass upgrade.
We do not have embassies with Egypt and Ottomans yet.

ROSTER
grs
Doc Tsiolkovski
Aggie ------------ just played
Mark1031 -------- up
LKendter --------- on deck
microbe

Great dealing, Aggie!

IIRC, we can steal from Ottomans, Egypt and Aztecs without risk, only Portugal with TGLight can reach us - and as long as they're at war with Aztecs, zero risk.

We are 1 turn from connecting the iron and getting a colony.
That's the one part I don't understand - from my calculations, the Grassland should have been roaded in your turn 1, allowing you to form the colony in turn 2 - or, did you manage to road the Iron before? ;)

- or, did you manage to road the Iron before? ;)

No! I didn't :blush: ... Goes hiding somewhere...

Great dealing, Aggie!

IIRC, we can steal from Ottomans, Egypt and Aztecs without risk, only Portugal with TGLight can reach us - and as long as they're at war with Aztecs, zero risk.

This isn't as bad as my other little blunder. But I forgot to mention that Aztecs and Portuguese made peace one turn after my steal. Should have mentioned it, although it's not vital...

EDIT: I'm too hard on myself... I DID mention it (it was 7 turns later though). Be glad that I am not playing my turns right now! :crazyeye:

I have been wasting 2 workers on the iron...

By the way: just like my previous Sid Space game it appears that the Ottomans are the runaway civ. And they still have to get their Sipahi!

And they still have to get Libraries... :eek:
OTOH, Aztecs and Portuguese don't seem too weak, maybe they can keep Osman contained somehow.

Once I remembered the colony thingie, I started to build them quite frequently on such mountain resources. You can normally build another Worker easily during the time it would take to road it, and wait for culture. Not worth it on Hills, but for Jungle and Mountains, it's a nice thing to have.

Got it. Nice Trading we are in the MA. We are in great now if we can take down the hittites.

I took a look at the game. I saw this yummy little Hittite stack. :eek:
I have no idea we can take them on anytime soon.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-582.jpg

With Pikes and MDI, while Mursilis still has only Spears and 3MCs. All those reg Warriors and the Archers simply need to impale on something. This is not the kind of stack I'm frightened about. Also, we will take his Horses one turn after DoW.

Sorry for the delay I was going to play tonight SD time but I actually will put it off for some discussion. I don’t think we can take on the Hittites at the moment which was our plan and it will be a while before Feudalism. We are OK on tech for Sid but we are broke at the moment. I don’t know what to do. Mursalis has all the good land and we are small and hemmed in. War will start his GA so we are in for a tough fight. I was thinking of disbanding all the reg warriors and going to infra. We are not really set up to be a Republic. When Lit comes in if we are first I will try to use it to get Feudalism, don't know if it will be enough. I will move pop from our cow cities to London and with Pikes and MI we might be able to take him on. Is this acceptable? If Mursalis gets anxious to start his GA we are dead. I wanted to ask as this is a tricky point and we changed our plans to get tech. This also keeps flip risk going longer than I expected.

Thought about that, too. A way to maybe get Feud is gifting Greece and Korea into MAs; if they still lack Republic, Rep+Lit+Mono should be enough. That would still leave our economical problems; and, it can fail.
What about trying this, and if we happen to get Feud, prepare for war; if not, infra.

Yes that is a possibility but 2 things. First we take our best backward trading partners and move them up for free. They may take off leaving us alone in the cellar which would be a disaster. Also we currently make 12 gpt and are small. We will not be able to upgrade our army soon without a better income. We currently pay 50 gpt for upkeep. Waiting to upgrade @12gpt is not tenable. And we can't fight with warriors.

Hmmm, those warriors were built to be upgraded to swords. we have spent a lot of time training those. A peaceful road risks us losing towns due to flipping. We still have no market and our towns aren't very big. But I guess that you are right. Only I don't know if we will have enough gpt to actually trade when we have 50 gpt more.

Gifting the AI to the middle ages and then buying their free tech usually fails unless you have something good to offer. You won't even get feudalism for lit. + republic in most cases.

I also don't like the idea of gifting two civs into the MA. We can profit from their free techs and backwardness later. No need -imho- to be hasty here. Reasons being the ones given by grs and Mark1031.

Well I will play tonight. I will need to disband something. I'm thinking the reg warriors only and keep the vets. Upgrade as $$ permit and then go to war before Feudalism. Maybe I can get $$ for lit to help the upgrades.

Go ahead Mark, I'm with you on this one.

I agree this is rough. The cash that was for massive upgrades was lost solving the tech problems.

I know I am VERY uncomfortable any time I share a landlass with a single civ. Need I say how I feel about that at Sid?

We share that feeling Lee. But we can't fight them with warriors and don't have the money for swords very soon. We went a certain route, have gone too far and now have a tough choice to make.

Pre: Disband about 6 reg warriors. Upgrade 2 vet warriors. Do iron colony.

530: Few builds complete. Disband the 2 distant ships as we have met everyone and we don’t need the map info yet.

510: Upgrade 1 more warrior. Disband another reg. We are weak vs the Hittites. To quote from the movie Platoon “I’ve got a bad feeling about this one Bob”

490: Start some walls on the front lines. Building spears.

470: zzz

450: zzz

430: Lit is available all around. :cry:

410: Aztecs Complete Leos. Ottomans complete Sistine and Knights Templar. Portuguese start the GL. Somehow Mursalis comes up with both Lit and Feudalism??

390: Lit comes in and is useless. OK I decide to try the gifting approach. I think with Iron and Feudalism we can take on Mursalis but without we are just spinning our wheels and drowning in unit costs. We may go down anyway in this fight but let’s try. Gift the Greeks first as they need only 2 techs and they get Mono. :( Gift the Koreans and they get…. Feudalism :) . Mono gets us Feudalism straight up. Keep Republic to keep them slowed down. Start Min on Theology. Can change it is more expensice than chiv.

370: Market Completes in London. We now make 49 gpt.

350: Take out loans from Portuguese and Aztecs. Only guys with $$. Upgrade some more units. We are still very weak but I think we have to try a war. We need lebensraum and to relieve the culture pressure.

Solid set of turns Mark1031. I can't see the save but I think that we indeed have to go to war soonish. Otherwise we will lose the tech race and eventually the game.

ROSTER
grs
Doc Tsiolkovski
Aggie
Mark1031 -------- just played
LKendter --------- up
microbe ---------- on deck

Goooooot it (10 chars)

All the best to you Lee! These turns will be similar to the ones you had. You probably won't feel happy about a couple of things. We are walking on thin ice and we all know it. It's still a lot better than other Sid games I played :)

I upgraded veteran warriors and swords to MDI. I got at least one pikeman in every city. I shifted production toward MDI. I snuck in one marketplace in Nottingham for fear of bankruptcy without more GPT.

I realized to late the second gem was connected. We are now risking a gems demand from the Hittites.

The Ottomans had 6,223 culture points at the beginning of my turns.
That is just mind-blowing.

The only trade is possibly Republic to the Hittites for Chivalry. Since we don't have horses I saw no benefit. Republic would help him too much especially during a GA.

==========================

Summary:


Grs (on deck)
Doc Tsiolkovski
Aggie
Mark1031
LKendter
Microbe (currently playing)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG14-150BC.zip

So Hittites have Chivalry? Do they have knights as well?

The only trade is possibly Republic to the Hittites for Chivalry. Since we don't have horses I saw no benefit. Republic would help him too much especially during a GA. Hmm, I hope we will have horses soon. Are the Hittites still in Despotism? I am not that sure I like a pop-rushing civ in war more than a cash-rushing one.

You could trade them Republic the interturn before we declare :p.

You could trade them Republic the interturn before we declare :p.

I think one of these smilies would be better :satan: :evil:

Hmm SID = 1 turn anarchy. I guess that will really bring them down to their knees :lol:

microbe, do you know you're up?

I think that we shouldn't wait too long with the war. Let's get 10 MDI two raze two towns and then make peace... Is this realistic?

I think even for the Sid AI, anarchy minimum is 2 turns (hardcoded). Won't hurt them much, but at least they have no way to rush in Hattusha.

I'd skip microbe if I would stick to the rules. microbe can't you play? Do you want a swap?

Please skip me for this round. I'm leaving for the long weekend in a day or so and have two other games due.

EDIT: I'm currently in 10 SGs, a bit over my capability, so although I've been trying to keep up I still miss games here and there. I blame it on the unexpected return of Aggie. :) I need to cut down my list a bit and get back to about 5. The problem is whenever a game is finished, Lee opens up two new.

Ok, I got it then.

ROSTER:
Grs (playing)
Doc Tsiolkovski (on deck)
Aggie
Mark1031
LKendter
Microbe (skipped)

I will finish late this night (may be a bit over 48 again). I had a decent look at the game and I agree we need to attack. I will try my best, but I am not that happy with the setup, as we are currently building "a little bit of everything". We only have 2 cats, not roaded the mountains for them, are putting shields worth 4 MDI at least in markets and temples, have 3 spare settlers fortified and are building a fourth. It seems we have missed a common direction in this game and the result is the "a little bit of everything" we have now.

I will be off due to a job-opportunity till tonight CET and will play it then. If no serious objections come, I will start the war during my turns. The opportunity is still not bad (Hittites best units are spears, archers and 3MCs). I just want you to know that the game may very well be lost in the next 10.

I wish you a lot of luck and skill. We have to force something here or accept a serious technology gap.

Good Luck. I agree we must strike soon.

Pre: Trash the market in Newcastle for a pike - it will build cats afterwards. York to MDI every 5; Canterbury 8. Move a settler/archer/warrior/pikestack to Canterbury. More of its use later. Hittites even pay us 14g for Republic vs Chivalry. Do that deal. F3 show the Hittites entered Republic immediately after the trade. Chivalry + all our gold won't buy us Engineering from Theo, though it is close.

130BC: Troop movement.

IBT: Portugal and Ottomans sign peace.

110BC: Troop movement.

IBT: --

90BC: Declare war on the Hittites. Henry does not join for all our gold, all other will be no help. Move 1 settler, 4 pikes, 1 archer, 1 warrior on the horses. We let Musilis attack first.

IBT: Kill 4 3MCs, 2 retreat, lose 1 pike in the battle for horses.

70BC: Liverpool founded on horses. Kill 3 spears and 2 warriors. Disband warrior and take a loan from Monty (28g for 2gpt) to rush a wall.

IBT: 2 3MCs, 1 archer and 1 warrior killed. 1 pike, 1 MDI lost.

50BC: Kill 1 spear.

IBT: Kill 1 archer.

30BC: Kill 2 spears, 2 warriors, 1 3MC. Lose all our 3 vet. archers vs reg. spears :(

IBT: Kill 1 archer. Lose 2 MDI.

10BC: Kill 3 3MCs, retreat two more, kill 2 spears. 1 MDI lost.

IBT: --

10AD: Kill 3 spears, 3 3MCs and get a leader :)

IBT: Cleo demands 24 gold - ok. The Hittites flee our lands. Kill 1 warrior.

30AD: Massacre fleeing troops. 8 warriors and 2 spears killed.

IBT: Kill 1 3MC.

50AD: Kill 2 3MCs, 1 spear, 1 warrior. Lose 1 MDI.

Afterwords: The Hittites still have huge stacks. I am 95% sure they have not a single 3MC left (else they left it at home). The galley is empty! We have 2 settlers with movement left in Hittites lands. An option would be to settle down and make peace. Musilis will make straight. He is even doubtfull about giving us a tech. We could also try to continue, but I would make straight peace and attack in 20 again with knights. The MGL is fortified in London. Either an empty army for knights or the FP. If FP where? I would switch military builds to knights from now on - adding a few cats.

We still have chances to trade chivalry to Korea and Greece, so look out.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/50ad.jpg

@Aggie: AG15 will follow tomorrow morning, it gets late around here.

I hate leaving Liverpool under such heavy culture pressure. Any change to raze Hattusha before signing peace?

Brave ten turns grs! And clever too. I'm thinking that it won't hurt us to settle before we make peace, despite the enormous cultural pressure we will be under. We can build knights now and fill a knight army. This will make a next campaign easier. Let's try to strike again very soon. If we make straight peace we are allowed to break it. According to civ and according to my ruleset.

Looks like we aren't able to raze Hattusha, but maybe DocT can surprise us!

I don't see a good place for a FP yet. Let's wait until the next campaign with that. We need knights more thqn a FP at this point.

Liverpool's chance of flipping is 3.3%, so we need to build knights very soon, we might lose the horse otherwise.

The Ottomans will be a terrible pain in the long run. They are our biggest threat for a space race. They have had their GA already (Great Wall, MoM).

EDIT: forgot this ROSTER:
Grs (just played)
Doc Tsiolkovski (up)
Aggie (on deck)
Mark1031
LKendter
Microbe

Looks like we aren't able to raze Hattusha, but maybe DocT can surprise us! Doc, if you Raze Hattusha we will build a free wonder called the DocT-War-Memorial in London :lol:

grs, I love that kind of Liverpool moves :thumbsup:.
I for one would have formed an MDI Army ASAP, but a Knight Army would rock. I see no need and no useful 100spt city spot (remember, Space ;) ) for the FP. Coventry looks ok, but it isn't in our main expansion direction.
I just see no real reason for peace now (but I haven't looked at the save yet); we gained Horses, but I'm afraid of the flip risk, and then we have to take out a walled city on them...
I got it.

Doc: If you continue warring, you might want to open the two mountain gaps around York again by moving the settler/pike pairs back to the mountains. Depending on your judgement you might even remove the defender from London again to show the AI the way to go.

We can not say how far the Hittites are from Invention and longbows will attack our pikes fortified on ground and probably even those on the mountains.

I for one would have formed an MDI Army ASAP, but a Knight Army would rock.

You are right. A MDI army is magnificent as well. Invincible when unharmed (won't be attacked). We might get another leader for knights...

Ouch. This one is ugly. I'm not sure if fighting on was the wisest move, the AI runs away technologically.

Aggie, what's you policy about turns?
I think I am somewhat in a position to get Hattushas after 10 turns, but I'm almost sure if I hand the game over now, familiarizing would take too long; thus I'd prefer to play on for a few more turns...
I'll stop for now, wating for your decision.

No problem if you play one or 2 more this time...

England, 50AD

Don’t see much pressure from Mursillis; sure, they’ll pillage a bit IBT, but that should be all.
I think the situation will only get worse if we make peace now; Longbows are a pain in larger numbers, Liverpool my flip, and I can’t tell if they can get a trade route to Portugal (we don’t have one, but the map isn’t revealed entirely).
Switch three cities to Knights.
One thing I love about going after grs (aside from the fact the game is in a good shape) is that I don’t have to change any settings :).
Enter.

IBT:
Oh, they do have Longbows already. Loose a Pike; that opens the blockade on the mountain range near York, and all their units run S. Get pillaged at Coventry and Liverpool (disconnected).

Turn 1: 70AD
Turn Edward into an Army before I whack a Spear at Coventry with an elite MDI, no luck. Slay an Archer, ping some Spears.
IBT:
Most Hittites run S. Newcastle riots, since the stupid Gov’ner placed a citizen on a Hill when a Hittite Galley blocked a coast tile. More pillaging. Pike defeats Longbow, Elite.

Turn 2: 90AD
Kill trash. Loose MDI to 3MC.
IBT:
Loose a healthy Pike on a Mountain to a Longbow. 3/5 Elite on the same tile defeats a Longbow and 3 Archers. About 15 units run to attack him (but do not reah him). Some more pointless pillaging.
Greece learns Republic.
WW goes up.

Turn 3: 110AD
Lots of minor Skirmishes.
IBT:
Not a single attack. Newcastle riots again, Galley. :mad:. Our first Knight finishes.

Turn 4: 130AD
Load Knight into Army, and kill two pinged Spears without taking a scratch. Kill more stuff, no losses.
IBT: Crap, loose MDI to 3MC out of nowhere. 2 3MCs land next to Hastings. Hittites run N again :crazyeye:.
Lisbon finishes Bach’s .eek:.

Turn 5: 150AD
Uphill fighting…
IBT: Pike defeats Longbow.
Portugal starts Magellan’s.

Turn 6: 170AD
More blood flows. No losses, but lots of redlined units, this gets ugly…
IBT: We have 3 more elite Pikes…this tells a lot ;).

Turn 8: 210AD
Can clear out everything except 3 Spears. The trick is to move out a MDI somewhere, and all Hittites will run to reach it. But it takes some time to know all her SoDs, that’s why I want a few more turns.
IBT: Portugal starts Smith’s.

Turn 11: 260AD
Found Dover.

Turn 12: 270AD
Need to attack the last Longbow with a Pike (don’t want to risk our redlined Army, and I lost more MDI than I expected) – but:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG14_270.jpg

4 Slaves, and 2gp.

We’re at 55% WW, requiring 60% Lux. Hittites stand right next to undefended cities, so fighting on is not an option. We can get no cities, but a hefty discount for Theology (we couldn’t get Eng or Theo for Gems and our Economy from Portugal).
Get Theology for peace and 220gp. Adjust our cities.

IMHO we should sell our Gems to Mursilis for small change, still better than getting a demand from Portugal.
And, we could sell our WM for quite some cash and maps to Aztecs and Portugal; this may also open another trade route.
Not sure if a PP run is worth it; if it fails, we’re really in a hole. No beakers invested in Education.

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG14_270AD.zip)

Not my best set of turns, sorry. Not convinced if that city was worth it to fall back in techs.

Doc, we fought against the odds and came out victoriously in my book. We won a war from a GA triggered Sid tribe. Next war should be easier.

Is it an idea to take that Portuguese town now?

Got it. Probably for Thursday.

EDIT: forgot this ROSTER:
Grs
Doc Tsiolkovski (just played)
Aggie (up)
Mark1031 (on deck)
LKendter
Microbe

Not my best set of turns, sorry. Not convinced if that city was worth it to fall back in techs.

Time will tell, but I think it was. Sharing a continent with a single AI is a disaster waiting to happen. We weakened the Hittites nicely during this war.

The war and the losses were acceptable; but running 50% lux for 10 turns was painful. Canterbury still starved 2 times...

I wouldn't go for that Portuguese city. Somehow I don't think Portugal is really that strong, they only have the tech lead. But according to F8, Ottomans and Egypt seem bigger; maybe it isn't the worst idea to sell our Gems to Henry for maps. And we can only trade goods with Hittites and Portugal at the moment.

One thing I forgot: Hubishna was an insult, while Adana or Ankuwa were only doubtful; there must be a resource. Prime target for the next war.

And I'd guess the fact Mursillis burned his GA for Longbows instead of infra will help us later.

I'd say a very good set of turns as taking that city was a big move. We now have an army and iron/horses to a civ that lacks both. I'd say we build up knights and take our rightful lands in 20. Hopefully next war gets us to the choke at least. As long as we keep open 2-fers with Greece and Korea we should be OK for techs until we consolidate our island.

PS: I will be gone thurs-Mon so I need a skip or swap.

Very good progress Doc. If Hitties have no iron or horses, we'd be facing only longbowmen, the best candidate for leader fishing.

Do they have saltpeter?

Let's focus on military and come back when we are ready. We don't need any infra except markets..

One thing I love about going after grs (aside from the fact the game is in a good shape) is that I don’t have to change any settings. Well, that's at least something.

Not my best set of turns, sorry. Not convinced if that city was worth it to fall back in techs I do not think that. It was a deceision to be made whether to attack on or not and you reached the goal of razing Hattusha, which will keep our horses safe :goodjob:!

Something came up and I can't play before Saturday (almost certainly). Mark1031 will also be out until then. We can either wait or swap the two of us with LKendter.

What would be best?

Something came up and I can't play before Saturday (almost certainly). Mark1031 will also be out until then. We can either wait or swap the two of us with LKendter.

What would be best?


I don't like to swap more then a single player. IMO we either wait for you (Sat), or skip you and Mark1031.

I say wait. This is a difficult game and I see no reason to push.

OK, I will play on Saturday. The farewell party of a colleague took longer than expected and tomorrow I will fly to London and back. So that day is full as well. But I agree with grs. Two skips is a but much and makes it less of a team effort.

I have absolutely no problem with a relaxed pace. This is a team of veterans, and strict rosters are something for games where you don't know how reliable participants are. So, take your time, Aggie.

IHT: Korea and Greece are backward and scientific. A very good thing in a game where the rest is quite advanced.
I will switch temple builds to knights when we have the room. I start a science run on PP.

I sell WM to Portugal for TM and 25 gold. I then sell WM to the Aztecs for TM and 58 gold. Then I seel gems to Portugal for 172 gold.

IT: Hastings: worker->worker.

Turn 1 (280 AD) I retreat our troops from Hittite lands.

IT: Coventry: worker->MDI.

Turn 2 (290 AD) I sell around WM every turn...

IT: Hastings: worker->harbor.

Turn 3 (300 AD) Temples and MDI's switched to knights.

IT: Nottingham: kingt->knight. Ottomans start Smith.

Turn 4 (310 AD) Nothing much.

IT: London->knight->knight.

Turn 5 (320 AD) Zzzz

IT: Yotk: knight->knight. Portugal finishes Smith.

Turn 6 (330 AD) Zzzz

Turn 7 (340 AD) Greece is now level with us in techs :(

Turn 8 (350 AD) Zzzz

IT: Hastings: harbor->aquaduct. Warwick: harbor->worker.

Turn 9 (360 AD) PP is known and Portugal still doesn't know Korea! I sell Portugal contact for 174 gold. Contact with Korea, WM and 108 gold gives us world map from the Aztecs.

Turn 10 (370 AD) Zzzz

I see options. We see two AI's very far advanced (Aztecs and Portugal), two not too far (Egypt and Ottomans) and two almost level to us (Greece and Korea). Our build-up is slow, but let's hit the Hittites again in ten turns.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG14-370AD.jpg

370 AD save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG14-370AD.zip)

Mark1031 is gone until Monday, so he's swapped when LKendter can play before this day.

ROSTER:
Grs
Doc Tsiolkovski
Aggie (just played)
Mark1031 (back on Monday - swapped/on deck)
LKendter (up)
Microbe

Our build-up is slow, but let's hit the Hittites again in ten turns. As it looks now, we can "leave or declare" them this time. Knights vs. longbows should be doable.

Any thoughts about the FP yet?

Got it...........

Aggie, do you have NoAIPatrol=0 enabled?
I really don't understand why the Hittites are still in our lands.

I shadowed, and here they immediately left - and attacked that Portuguese city :lol:.

Aggie, do you have NoAIPatrol=0 enabled?

When I reinstalled the game last month I certainly didn't enable this. I will do it now.

370 AD
I am not sure how good the aqueduct will be at Hasting as the city is already needs a clown at size 6. However, I leave it alone for know.

With this being planned as a space race I don't bother trading with Korea for Monarchy.


420 AD
(IT) The Ottomans declare war on Portugal. The Ottomans are not an empire that we want to see get larger.
The next announce is good news. Egypt and Portugal ally against the Ottomans. Now we hope that the 3 pretty much go nowhere against each other.

I cave to a Portugal demand for tm and $63.


430 AD
(IT) Egypt establishes an embassy with us.


440 AD
(IT) We are way behind the tech leaders as Portugal starts Newtons.


==========================

Summary:
I played 8 to get us back on even turns.
I simply worked on building up more troops.

I didn't get any new techs. :(
I hope we get a break and Korea researches Engineering.


Grs (on deck)
Doc Tsiolkovski
Aggie
Mark1031
LKendter
Microbe (currently playing)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG14-450AD.zip

It's all not looking too bad for Sid. We should start a new war soonish. I will stick to the roster above (from LKendter) and Mark1031 is skipped for this round as he only will be back on Monday according to his last post.

microbe, you know that you are up?

I will not skip microbe yet. But will do so when I return from 'work and still don't see a 'got it' (in 12 hours).

I got it, but will play tomorrow.

That's OK :)

Sorry, I couldn't start the game bofore I got sleepy..will finish tomorrow night.

Had a look at the game.

I am inclined to declare on Hitties, although it has tons of longbow/spearmen at our border. I think we need to get it before it gets Navigation and trades for iron/horses, but it might turn out to be semi-suicide. Comments?

Go for it :hammer: They are weaker than they were in the previous war.

preturn: I think a war with Hitties is coming, but we need more units. I can count 19 offensive units (LBM/archer) in sight, and escorted by the same number of spearmen. I haven't seen a musketman..

IBT Portugal and Egypt MA vs Aztecs.

(1)460AD: I decide to build some pikes instead of knights. We need units to block those spearmen.

IBT Aztecs get TM+66g. Hitties start Magellan's.

(2)470AD:

Korea and Portugal MA vs Aztecs.

(3)480AD: With Hitties getting Navitation it will soon get horses and iron from others..

IBT Hitties and Korea MA vs Aztecs

(4)490AD: Hitties get horses!

I sell gems+1g to Egypt for furs+1gpt.

I declare on Hitties. We already have WW..must be from the previous war.

IBT Korea and Ottoman MA vs Egypt. We lose a pike. Hitties ignore the south and head for the gems mountain.

(5)500AD: Korea has Engineering! Get it by Theology+95g.

My strategy is to quickly raze a city or two then sue for peace before these SoDs come to our next door. Hukish is heavily defended. We kill 7 spearmen and 3 longbowmen and raze Hukish. We lose one MDI and one knight.

IBT Greece and Aztecs MA vs Egypt. Our capital riots as we lose the lux from Egypt..

(6)510AD: I trade gems to Aztecs for spices+9g+WM.

(7)520AD: IBT we see a Hittie Musket!

(8)530AD: Hitties would talk! But I'll see what harm I could do more to Hitties.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG16-530AD.jpg

Notice in the screenshot Hitties are climbing the mountians. This makes attack very difficult. Fortunately this turn one stack is on plains, and our initial attack force also heels. We lose one MDI but kill a bunch of spearmen and longbowmen.

There are still over 40 units in our territory. I decide to make peace as we can't take any cities. Before that I attack without worrying about leaving units in the open, and..

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG16-530AD-2.jpg

We take Invention+7g+8gpt.

I buy Gunpowder from Ottoman by gems+WM+21gpt+1057g. We don't have saltpeter. In fact there is no saltpeter on our continent. Ottoman has saltpeter for sale but we cannot afford it.

I then get Education+5g from Greece by Gunpowder+13gpt.

We could try to take Lisbon for the GL gambit, which is in fact quite doable, if not for the fact that there is no safe route to get across there. Plus we cannot get our armies overseas. So forget it.

We are 21g making +6gpt..

I start some infra in our core cities..

IBT Hitties and Portugal MA vs Ottomans. Greece and Hitties MA vs Ottomans. Ottomans start Shakespear.

(10)550AD: Found Brighton.

Note: we can sell our only incense+10g to Ottomans for saltpeter+furs, and build musketmen. We probably should do so.

But our unit support is also a problem. We may need to disband some to build muskets..

We could also sell our only iron to Portugal for some 400+ gold. We might want to do so as in the next 20 turns we may just build musket..

Hitties have got all 3 resources from other AIs. Next war will be tough, but we'll have 1 or 2 more armies..

I have the leader in Dover. We could rush FP too. I think Coventry or Dover is a good place.

Some AI are in IA..

We could try to take Lisbon for the GL gambit, which is in fact quite doable, if not for the fact that there is no safe route to get across there. Plus we cannot get our armies overseas. So forget it.

The GL gambit is not allowed in this game. Seems like you made good progress, but I can't tell without a save!

Save attached again. It failed for some unknown reason.

The Ottomans are a monster and are killing the Portuguese, 2nd in culture. We will have a tough fight vs the Hittites as soon as they get rifles, which won't be far away. But all in all, considering the fact that this is a Sid game, things are OK. Two of the slowest AI are scientific, which should help us advance.

Grs (up)
Doc Tsiolkovski (on deck)
Aggie
Mark1031
LKendter
Microbe

Neither Coventry nor Warwick have any culture :eek: - if one of those flips to Portugal, we are lost.

And, we should definitely do some self-research now. With the goal of Space, we need research capacity anyway; IMHO now is the best time to get up those Libraries.
Next war against Hittites should wait for Cavs.
I'm against selling our Iron. The problem is if we get attacked by someone, we can't defend ourselves without it.

Neither Coventry nor Warwick have any culture :eek: - if one of those flips to Portugal, we are lost.


Put more garrison there.

Are we allowed to use flipcalc? Portugal is so far away I don't think the risk is high.

I am even thinking about razing that Portugal town.

Tools like mapstat or flipcalc are fine.

(5)500AD: Korea has Engineering! Get it by Theology+95g.
It finally happened. :D
I was hoping for that my whole round. It also opened the door to a nice round of trading later.


I am even thinking about razing that Portugal town.
I agree on performing razing and replacing that town. We need a larger empire.


Next war against Hittites should wait for Cavs.
With us having no native salt that will be a challenge.

I agree with the razing. Portugal probably won't resist a lot with their big neighbour beating them up!

No salt is a challenge, but there's always the free market to buy us some salt...

Grs posted elsewhere is in on indefinite skip. This makes Doc up.

Grs (indefinite skip)
Doc Tsiolkovski (currently playing)
Aggie (on deck)
Mark1031
LKendter
Microbe

Thanks. Although I knew that grs was up twice I didn't realise that he had to be skipped here as well. I'm really hoping that I feel better tomorrow or friday. I want to play a good 10 turns on sid :)

I see it, but I'm up in two games before; may take two days.

I don't see any comments on use of the leader..

I like the FP idea and vote for Dover.

I like the FP idea and vote for Dover.
I second that motion if the leader is available. 550AD is awful late in the game to have NO FP.

I vote for FP w leader and for using up our excess military by taking out the Port town. Does it have Rifles yet? Also I would try to not buy anymore tech from Otto's. They look like they will run away with this one and need to be slowed at all cost. We need banks and courts as top infra priority IMO. We still have a GA comming. We might want to dogpile Ottos at that point and continue it. We should be able to sink/capture lots of boats of troops with our UU, if you've never used it it is pretty dominant until destroyers and lots of fun.

Sorry for the delay.

England, 550AD
Ouch, the Ottomans are a monster.
I agree with the FP in Dover; don’t want to waste the shields there, so I switch to Barracks before rushing it. I’d like to get up some Libraries as well, not a big fan of founding the AI.
But Markets have priority.

Enter.
IBT: Portugal and Korea sign MA against Ottomans. Aztecs and Egypt make happy. Hittites run home.

Turn 1: 560AD
Sell Chivalry to Korea for 709gp. Spent a bit cash to part-rush stuff.
IBT: Aztec and Portugal sign peace treaty.
Ugarit of all cities completes Magellan’s.

Turn 3: 580AD
Nelson rushes the FP in Dover.
IBT:
Dover (FP)->Market, Nottingham (Court)->HE

Turn 4: 590AD
Greece knows PP :(.

Turn 5-7: 600-630AD
Zzzz…

Turn 8: 630AD
Declare on Portugal. Move in.
IBT: A Rifle leaves Castelo Branco, to chase for some of our Workers.

Turn 9: 640AD
Cats got 3/3, acceptable. Only a Vet and a Reg Rifle defending. Two Elite MDI kill both Rifles, Cav shows up. Elite Knights takes out Cav, and we have 137gp and two Slaves.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/CB.jpg

Army takes care of the stray Rifle.
The entire action did cost us 7HP, 4 of those from the Army :D.
Did I mention already Castelo Branco is on Saltpetre? :dance:
Block all tiles so that Hittites cannot land a Settler.
IBT: Portugal and Korea sign an embargo against us.

Turn 10: 650AD
Found Norwich. Another Settler can found next turn, and we’ll have Saltpetre.
Two more towns reached city size, that helped our income.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ag14_650.jpg

We’re now close to have enough cash for a steal; Greece is up Astro, Egypt lacks Chemistry; possible n-fers. I’d nevertheless like some Libraries, buying techs only helps the AI.
Peace with Henry ASAP, nothing more to gain here. Hope he'll talk soon.

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AD14_650AD.zip)

I’d nevertheless like some Libraries, buying techs only helps the AI.
I am glad to see someone whom agrees with me on that. The more I play recently, the more I hate giving large GPT to the AI.


Grs (indefinite skip)
Doc Tsiolkovski
Aggie (currently playing)
Mark1031 (on deck)
LKendter
Microbe

LK's Scientific Experiments proved this theorem:Science is developed by self research and aided by tech brokering.Buying a ladder to Alpha Centuri is not viable in Diety-Sid.

I am glad to see someone whom agrees with me on that. The more I play recently, the more I hate giving large GPT to the AI.


I agree on the gpt to civs, esp the leaders. I don't agree on self research on Sid. Stealing is the key AFAIC. Markets/banks/courts/use sea tiles and steal and trade.

Mark is right. Stealing is important at Sid level.

Got it. I don't know when exactly I can play. I hope to play today (should normally be possible). Otherwise it will be difficult to be in the 48 hrs timeframe.

Deity: Research for yourself.
Sid: Trade for AA techs; steal IA techs; but MA is best to research and trade and steal. Once you have big cities and Banks, you make enough cash to steal - but we are exactly in that hole where we could research, but cannot afford to steal.

In the 7+1 game, we researched 2 techs in like 10 turns. One of the best uses for a ~1000gp payment (if you don't want to risk it for a steal, since you don't make substantial gpt/ fear a war) is a heavy deficit research. Requires some Libraries, of course.
And since we need culture almost everywhere (to expand borders), I do think we would be better off to research the 'middle' MA techs.

Stealing costs here are astronomic, since everyone but Egypt, Korea, and Greece are industrial already. I don't think stealing is worth it when your income is 1/20 of the costs for 'immediate'.

OK, I will stick to your plan DocT. But we also have to build up our military. I want to own the island at one point.

Playing now.

IHT: I don't have to do a lot on the cities. DocT did a great job here.

IT: Portugal lands a cavalry and a MDI next to Oxford. Aztecs finish Shakespeare. Good. Not the Ottomans.

Turn 1 (660 AD) Knight army kills cav and MDI. The MDI takes 9 HP's [2-0]

Portugal still doesn't want to talk.

Elles founded on DocT's spot.

Turn 2 (670 AD) Portugal still doesn't talk!

IT: Portugal and Korea sign a MA vs us. Portugal lands two cavs near Warwick. Ottomans finish Newton in Iznik.

Turn 3 (680 AD) Portugal still refuses to listen to us. Knight army kills the two cavs [4-0]

Now Henry doesn't mind talking to us.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG14-portugalpeace.jpg

I pay Henry 40 gold for peace before he can do more harm and ask the Hittites to join. At least we have war hapiness from Korea.

IT: Hittites want to ally with the Aztecs. I refuse.

Turn 4 (690 AD) Nothing much...

Turn 5 (700 AD) We have 1200 gold. Enough for an immediate steal. For 1140 gold I get Chemistry from the Aztecs. Chemsitry, 18 gpt and world map gives us Banking from Egypt. Banking and Chemistry is enough to get us Astronomy and Printing Press from Greece.

The Hittites lack Physics, Egypt and Greece are level with us (looking at the required techs). We can't afford Physics however.
We have too many units. I disband 4 vet MDI.

Turn 6 (710 AD) I disband another 2 vet MDI. We still have 55 units while 29 are supported.

IT: Greece and Korea MA vs the Aztecs.

Turn 7 (720 AD) :sleep:

IT: Otto's and Greece sign peace. We finish the Heroic Epic.

Turn 8 (730 AD) Our economy is growing. We are making 126 gpt now. More banks and markets are ordered. The science front doesn't chance. Hittites lack Physics and Egypt and Greece are equal to us.

IT: The Ottomans DESTROYED Egypt :( Hitties want 20 turns more peace and I accept. This straght perace deal can be broken when we want anyway.

Turn 9 (740 AD) Zzzz

Turn 10 (750 AD) The Hittites learned Physics. Two unlucky breaks at the end of my turn. Egypt gone and Hittites knowing this tech. But let's not dispair. Then again: the Ottomans killed Egypt and can now focus on Portugal.

750 AD save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG14-750AD.zip)

I won't be able to be around here a lot the coming days. That said, I like this SG very much and I do my best to participate as much as possible. Just that you know that I am not able to contribute as much as I usually do.

Grs (indefinite skip)
Doc Tsiolkovski
Aggie (just played
Mark1031 (up)
LKendter (on deck)
Microbe

No comments people?

I'll be away some days later this week as well, and I decreased the # of SGs I participate in anyway.
This is one I really like, as well.

Bottom line:
For me, a completely relaxed pace is fine. Let's stick to the roster whereever possible, but no hurry.

Pre: Some switching. Hastings Lib-> Temple, Dover Lib->Bank, Newcastel Rax-> Bank. Norwitch, Elles_> Courts. I Feel we need to focus on one aspect of the economy first. One or 2 Libs is not going to help research that much now and I would rather we have the $$$.


760: Warwick Market-> court. Brighton Temple->Market. Merge 3 workers to Coventry. Move pults around to disband.

770: Disband all pults. These are too expensive to upgrade and are becoming useless. More worker merges. We are up to 203 gpt.

780: Hittites peace with ottos

790: Korea Aztecs sign peace. Hittites move stack of 5 pikes into our territory. Decide to trade them gems. For 99gp. Peace with Korea for chemistry + 21 gp. I want to move them along. Greece/Korea should research physics or Metal. We have enough for an immediate steal.

800: Greece wants 95gp. I give because I don’t want to be @ war if they get metal or Physics.

810: Damn Greece gets Democracy.

820: Greece gets Econ. Korea gets Edu.

840: Wines are available from Aztecs for 18gpt + 10 gp so I buy. Lux to 10%. We make 270gpt.

850: We have 2800 gp and make 290gpt. Watch for Greece to get either Physics or Metal.

I fear the Ottomans will win this thing and I just don’t know how to stop it. Well we have an economy now at least and can steal trade with Greece. We also still have our GA coming. I would get all our towns to size 12 by building some granaries in the food rich regions and transferring pop.

ROSTER:
Grs (indefinite skip)
Doc Tsiolkovski
Aggie
Mark1031 (just played)
LKendter (up)
Microbe (on deck)

Should we totally isolate the Ottomans with trade emargoes for example? I'm afraid that MA's vs them won't help. They'd simply kill the other civs.

I see it, and it is behind the monster LK88. The 5 low war turns took long, and I am about to start a huge war...

Plus I actually have a couple of RL things today to deal with.

I don't know how good they would be at Island invasions but nobody is going to invade their continent. When we get our UU we could do war with them and move our 2 armies over to pillage them until they get flight. I think with our UU we can defend against landings. I wou;d get everyone at war with them anyway (except maybe Aztecs if they are still around) and institute embargos but I'm sure they will have all the required resources it would at least deny them a few lux. 2 Pillaging armies should do some damage and if we could get a few cavs over by then we might even burn a few cities.

Sounds good Mark1031. I like these thoughts. This is a space race, but we can only win by slowing down the Ottomans and reducing their culture build up. Biggest threat is 100K I think.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG14-950AD.zip

850 AD
We are in no position to wage another war, so this looks like 10 builder turn with emphasis toward markets / banks first. The only trade is to get Monarchy from Korea and that is useless in a space race game.
My number one fear is the Ottomans, but I doubt I can do much during my turns. We really need our UU before stirring up trouble.

I buy an updated map from Portugal for $150.
I find we never build an embassy with the Ottomans. They have 7 luxuries, coal, saltpeter, iron, and horses. Istanbul is making 58 culture points a turn! It already has accumulated 5,307 points. They have plenty of rifles and are working on Sipahi. No wonder they are eating Portugal alive. I can't spot any completed rail tiles, so I suspect the just got steam power. However, I spot a completed railroad in Aztec territory. They are both far ahead of us.


870 AD
(IT) This is news I didn't want. The Hittites and Ottomans sign an MPP. This is going to make it much harder to deal with the Ottomans.
The Ottomans are building Universal Suffrage.


880 AD
I get away with a careful steal from Portugal. I get Physics and we are one step closer to our UU.
(IT) The Aztecs are building Universal Suffrage.
The Hittites declare war on Portugal.


910 AD
I can actually make a trade. :D
I give Physics and $575 to Greece and get Metallurgy. It doesn't get our UU, but any chance to move forward is a good thing.
(IT) Portugal and Greece ally vs. the Aztecs. Now this is a useless alliance.


920 AD
I attempt another careful steal against Portugal. Sometimes is pays to be lucky. We now have Magnetism and can build our UU.
(IT) The silly alliances continue as Greece and Portugal ally vs. the Hittites.
The Ottomans and the Aztecs ally vs. Greece.

==========================

Summary:
The Ottomans really scare me. I fear the will win by culture before we can launch unless very serious damage is done to them. I at least have our UU starting to be built.

Grs (indefinite skip)
Doc Tsiolkovski (on deck)
Aggie
Mark1031
LKendter
Microbe (currently playing)

Nice progress. I think when we get about 5 of our UU we need to start war with the ottomans and get our armies over there to pillage. We must of course find a way to get the hittites on our side.

You may want to send one or both of your armies to start pillaging the ottomans before they get flight..

You may want to send one or both of your armies to start pillaging the ottomans before they get flight..

We need it even earlier. Having the armies bombed to death is the least of the dangers. If the Ottomans take out the Aztecs, then they will attack the armies. Armies will be targeted if NO other choices exist. I learned this the hard way in a LK series game.

We need it even earlier. Having the armies bombed to death is the least of the dangers. If the Ottomans take out the Aztecs, then they will attack the armies. Armies will be targeted if NO other choices exist. I learned this the hard way in a LK series game.
Kinda.. armies will be targetted if no other choice exist, but in my solo sid games I have never seen them being attacked by more than 2 units per turn as long as they are not yellowlined.. usually they will be attacked by max one unit (and rarely two units ) per turn is my experience, even if there are 100+ units available to attack them. If they can be hurt by artillery units or bombers first, then things change.. and once they drop below a treshhold (depending on their defense strength vs attackers attack strength) they will be overrun..

You could also put the 2 armies on the choke between ottomans and aztecs, and in that way allow the aztecs to easilly capture all the western ottoman towns...

We need it even earlier. Having the armies bombed to death is the least of the dangers. If the Ottomans take out the Aztecs, then they will attack the armies. Armies will be targeted if NO other choices exist. I learned this the hard way in a LK series game.

We had an other experience in Mark1031's defiant Sid game. Armies and even elite infantry were safe vs an opponent that was alone on it's island.

I think it depends on the location of the army. If it blocks a choke or a route that AI wants to get through it might get attacked. Just a guess.

EDIT: got it.

Has seemed totally random to me.. they can leave them alone for 10 turns, then suddenly attack them with 2 archers (even if they have cavs available).
Most weird case I have seen was once when an army was on coast and they attacked it with a galley..

Cant remember seeing an army attacked this way when not on flat land thou, never happened to armies on hills or mountains

Preturn: nothing. Ottoman has 41238 culture and I think we'll definitely lose by culture..

IBT: we lose our horses.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG14-950AD.jpg

960AD: Liverpool gets a rifleman defending it.

Greece has Military Tradition and we trade Magnetism+410g for it.

I buy ToG from Ottoman by 173gpt. I sell ToG to Greece for ivory+dyes+680g. It draws Medicine.

I carefully steal Nationalism from Ottomans.

I sell Metallurgy+Physics to Korea for Monarchy and gift Korea into IA and it draws Steam Power.

Nationalism to Korea for Steam Power.

Nationalism+Steam Power to Greece for Medicine+Democracy+Economics+Music Theory.

We are up Steam Power on Hitties. :)

I set min research on Sanitation. We cannot do anything more than min research, so steal is the only way out.

We do not have horses, but that's fine.

Hasting has a lot of food. I switch it to granary to pump more workers. Oh we do not have coal but Ottoman has one extra. We buy with 18gpt.

990AD: Portugal and Ottoman make peace. Portugal starts Universal Suffrage.

1020AD: Aztecs have sanitation.

1030AD: We have 1300g+ so immediately steal Industrialization from Aztecs. I didn't take Sanitation as that's really low resell value and not very useful to us. I almost took Electricity which is one step closer to ToE and more expensive, but I think factories are more important.

1040AD: I do not renew wines from Aztecs.

1050AD: nothing much.

We have an extra gems to sell. We could sell to Ottomans for horses+gpt, or Greece.

We are really short of workers. I've built some granaries and popped some workers. Hastings has high food and can do something like build 2-3 workers then a riflemen.

I wouldn't sell anything to the Ottomans. They must be stopped. How are we going to do that?

Grs (indefinite skip)
Doc Tsiolkovski (up)
Aggie (on deck)
Mark1031
LKendter
Microbe (just played)

DocT posted yesterday he'll be away the rest of the week (DocT6)

Thanks for the info. But I completely dropped the timelines, because I cannot commit to them anymore at all. I like to wait for DocT's return.

I buy ToG from Ottoman by 173gpt.
Can we avoid any more tech buys from the Ottomans. If we are going to buy tech, I would pay an all but dead civ like Portugal.


Thanks for the info. But I completely dropped the timelines, because I cannot commit to them anymore at all. I like to wait for DocT's return.
While I understand why, long delays can be the death of a SG.

I fully agree with you Lee. I have always believed in a strict roster as a base for an SG. And I took over your roster schedule because I have liked the way your games have been going.

But at this moment I can't possibly commit to it myself, while on the other hand I like this SG, the team and the challenge. Knowing that this is a dedicated bunch of players I had two options: end it or be more lenient. I choose the last option.

But to be totally honest: I wouldn't have started new SG's if I knew what would happen to me. Since 10 days my life has changed radically and I am now trying to keep what feels good. This takes time that I really like to spend by the way.

That said: I like the game to continue with me part of it.

When I have time on Saturday and when DocT has not posted a 'got it' I will post it myself and play. But DocT, please don't let this stop your from posting a 'got it' yourself keep this game moving. I'm an unstable factor in the SG at the moment.

Since 10 days my life has changed radically and I am now trying to keep what feels good. This takes time that I really like to spend by the way.
That comment I understand. If I get a really short notice for a new job assignment I will be in trouble to keep going at full speed in my SGs. RL can interfere a lot with these hobbies. I fell behind just because of a couple of days having to spend time on anniversary celebration.

Guess what... I will be able to play tomorrow! I GOT IT :)

Grs (indefinite skip)
Doc Tsiolkovski (on deck)
Aggie (up)
Mark1031
LKendter
Microbe (just played)

IHT: I'm tempted to declare on the Aztecs. We'd not only gain the horses, but also lose our big payment to the Ottomans. Drawback: we'd lose our coal.

IT: Ottomans finish US. Korea demands our gems and I decline. They don't declare war.

Turn 1 (1060 AD) I seel gems to Greece for 7 gpt and world map. Greece is now Gracious.

IT: Osman demands territory map and 55 gold. I accept, because we NEED the coal.

Turn 2-3 (1070 AD - 1080 AD) Nothing much.

IT: Greece and Portugal sign a MPP. Well, this mean that Portugal has to decalre on the Ottomans soon. So the Ottomans will have an opportunity to grow even more! Yup... Portugal decalres on the Ottomans :(

Turn 4-5 (1090-1100 AD) :sleep: We are in an infra build phase. Building factories and then coal plants.

Turn 6 (1110 AD) I succeed in a careful steal from the Aztecs. I take Sanitation. I hoped that this was good enough to trade for Electricity with Portugal, but they also want 247 gpt!!! So no deal :(

IT: Greece and Hittites sign peace.

Turn 7-8 (1120-1130 AD) :sleep:

IT: Ottomans and Greece sign peace. Aztecs and Otto's start ToE!!!

Turn 9 (1140 AD) Portugal knows Sanitation.

Turn 10 (1150 AD) The Ottomans have 54015 culture, making 730 cpt. They will win within 60 turns. I saw no chance to do something, because I think that the infra-push is vital. We invest now to make more shields soon. I hope we are not to late, but fear the worst. What should we do?

ROSTER:
Grs (indefinite skip)
Doc Tsiolkovski (up)
Aggie (just played)
Mark1031 (on deck)
LKendter
Microbe

I take Sanitation. I hoped that this was good enough to trade for Electricity with Portugal, but they also want 247 gpt!!! So no deal


This was why I didn't take Sanitation in my turns. It's a cheap tech. I took Industrialization and we should have taken Electricity. We could have a chance at ToE.

I think we have no chance at stopping Ottomans in time. :( We did well and it's just unfortunate that one AI grows too big.

Well, it looks like a tank fest and destroying an Ottoman SS. Should be no trouble for you gents. Good luck and happy hunting.

Well, it looks like a tank fest and destroying an Ottoman SS. Should be no trouble for you gents. Good luck and happy hunting.
Well the Ottoman will win by culture before any launch. :(

DocT, can you take it? If not it might be good to swap you with Mark1031?

DocT is skipped or swapped since there hasn't been a sing of life in this thread. Mark1031 is up.

ROSTER:
Grs (indefinite skip)
Doc Tsiolkovski (on deck)
Aggie (just played)
Mark1031 (up)
LKendter
Microbe

OK got it and will play tomorrow. I think I would like to start a war with the Ottomans and trigger our GA. Move both armies over and block the choke and see if they attack or not. If I buy horses for straight gpt can I declare w/o rep hit or violating any rules. I would like to upgarde the knights and start some cavs for home defense. Ottos are the only ones w extra horses. I would buy everyone in and hope the aztecs can prevail with the chole blocked. Prolly won't work but best plan I've heard so far. Chime in, I will play in 20 hrs.

Mark, horses for straight gpt is fine. Even better if you get them to declare. Note that afaik Hittites and Ottomans have MPP!! So your plan souns great, but this is nasty...

I'm back. Stayed a few turns longer in Berlin as originally planned, sorry.
I can take it after Mark.

That's great DocT. I changed the roster above.

Rush 2 Ducts and Temple. Trade for horses @ 29gpt with Ottos. Swap coal plants to Cavs or MoWs

1125: Renew Dyes+ivory for 40gpt and Map.

1170 Renew coal for 40gpt, renew gems+ 8gpt for spices.

1180: Build some military and more workers. Aztecs complete ToE. Good.

1190: make more workers

1200 Hittites Declare on Greeks.

1210: Careful steal from Portugal fails and we are at war. Hittites are also at war with them so I’m not worried.

1220: Indust + Med + MT to Korea for Fascism. Fascism to Greece for 144gp, +22gpt + Nav+Free Artistry. Why not just move Korea Along as we want to strengthen everyone relative to Ottos. Hittites make peace with Portugal. :(

1230: Railing

1240: Railing

1250: More of the same. Portugal is down to a OCC with the Ottos swallowing them. We have an Army headed for Ottomans. I kept one at home for possible Hittite war but we have another Galleon in London if you want to send it, might wait to see if the 1st one survives. I have been pulling workers off to rail. If/when we declare on ottos we will loose coal and horses. I would wait until you can put workers on every important unrailed square before going for Osman, use slaves first as I would like to get our natives back into cities before GA trigger. Also start Cav in most cities. Instead of blocking the choke I was thinking of just straight pillaging to weaken them. I would sign everyone but the Aztecs in against Osman then once he is pillaged sign them in. We should try to get Espionage ASAP so we can steal during war. I have limited hope for this as we are up against a culture deadline which will be hard to beat. I hate the Ottomans especially on Sid as they tend to do this in most games I’ve had them as opponents. The Saphi are just too strong especially for the way the AI fights w/o arty support.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/1250AD.JPG

2 question:
1) Any objections against deals in connection with a MA against Portugal? Some players (not me!) consider this exploitive...

2) I'm not sure if our Armies are save from Sipahi, especially elite Sipahis. Someone any experiences here?

I'm starting to hate the Ottomans too. But things happen with random settings...

I don't know exactly what happens with Sipahi and armies. But it might be very bad indeed. Then again: we have no other option than to find out, haven't we? At least we will know what happens in similar future scenarios.

I don't mind MPP deals vs Portugal.

This game is going very very well. Except for one tiny thing. The Ottoman culture issue :mad:

ROSTER:
Grs (indefinite skip)
Doc Tsiolkovski (up)
Aggie
Mark1031 (just played)
LKendter (on deck)
Microbe

2 question:
1) Any objections against deals in connection with a MA against Portugal? Some players (not me!) consider this exploitive...


Not at all. Especially for a Sid game.

DocT, did you forget this one?

No, I'm trying to play - unfortunately, I'm sick like a dog (usual flu...). Should be done today.

I really can't think straight. But I had a close look at the game...Ouch. Don't want to chicken out, but this is a lost case in my eyes.
I investigated one of the cities Osman recently captured on that island holding the last Portuguese city, and since there are no substantial forces (except for like 20 ships), I do not expect Portugal to be eliminated in the very next turns; so MA deals are out. No idea for other diplo tweaks.
Ottomans have 45 cities, Aztecs only 14...in fact, all other Civs together have 56 in total. :help:
If someone feels inspired enough to try something here, I wouldn't mind a swap; otherwise, I can try to play within the next days - but seriously, I have no clue what to do :(.

Well, I'd normally say: let's play on until the end. But I have to admit that I'm looking at things differently at the moment. I'd like to try out Mark1031's plan. Just to see what happens with armies vs Sipahi.

What does the rest of the team think?

Let's at least see if the army survives. If it does we could use the 2 armies to try and help the aztecs gain some ground.

I agree with Mark1031...

Is there really no interest for this game anymore? I like to play it out, despite my lack of time in weekends...

Sorry I didn't contribute too much to the discussion as I have no idea what to do..to me there is no time for us to stop ottomans to have culture win.

I really hate to do this. But we better end it here and call it a loss. Normally I'd play until the end, but the Ottomans will get a culture victory no matter what we try. We need to raze important cities, not pillage their lands. And razing cities is far beyond our reach.

I hope that you don't remember me for my last two games that saw less commitment from my side and didn't make it to the end. The dromon game was a hopeless case when we lost the Lighthouse race and this one is also unwinnable. And I really couldn't find more time for the game.

I don't know when I will return to SG's. I am making other choices now (I'm not a free man anymore!) and this means far less time for things like internet and PC games. It's surely possible that I will get more time in the not so near future and then I will also start playing this game again. I still love civ.

I suppose this is the wrong thread for me, but sorry to see you go. I sort of saw it coming in AG15, as we were already at four players when you ran out of time. And I was never able to play either. I am glad I was able to play at least one full game with you before you left again.

Good luck Aggie. Civ is a good game that has addicted us for years, but time would still come to call for a break. I myself too have been less and less excited about it, but I will not say "quit" but just "keep it low" as I know we'll all come back some day, for civ4 if nothing else. And it's still good to see you lurking around even if you don't play the game. :)

I agree with calling this a loss. Ottomans are even a Monarchy, so we cannot cause WW or whipping. And razing core cities is completely out of reach (btw, they have at least one Iron Works city).
I will may play some more turns, just to see if Armies get attacked by Sipahis.

Good luck, Aggie.
I fully understand your feelings; I start growing tired from unmodded Civ3 as well.

Good luck, Aggie.
I fully understand your feelings; I start growing tired from unmodded Civ3 as well.

Thanks DocT, but it's not that for me. If I would have the time I would organize more and more crazy games.

@microbe and DocT: getting tired of a game a few months before the next installment will be released?

Isn't it unbelievable how long we have enjoyed CIV3? If I compare it with the other games I played in 2004/2005 then I can only conclude that CIV3 is far superior. Rome: Total War for instance really has stupid AI. A game may look and play great, but this says nothing about longevity.

I haven't commented much as I had no clue what to do vs. the Ottomans. We had no chance for a dog pile against then, and we didn't have the units to do much damage.

This game IMO was cursed at 4000BC. Sharing a continent with a single civ is the worst situation at any level. We still have another war with the Hittites almost a sure thing.

This game IMO was cursed at 4000BC. Sharing a continent with a single civ is the worst situation at any level. We still have another war with the Hittites almost a sure thing.

We would have won this game if it weren't for the cursed Ottomans... Those Hittites weren't a bad thing. They didn't have horses and iron for a long time and we were able to gain techs and territory because of them. A next war would have been a breeze with armies.

But we couldn't win from the Ottomans, who were already the top dog before Sipahi and then used their UU to their full advantage. The fact that another civ didn't have more than 50% of their culture is bad luck.

Agreed. The Hittites made the game interesting, but not impossible. Normally, we would simply fight them now, triggering our GA hopefully, and taking over the island.
And that would be fun, not a nightmare.

But the Ottos are simply sooo big...we could easily sign the world against them (plop down a city on their continent, while having a MPP with everyone), but to which avail?
7+1 may haved looked a lot harder, with us in a lot worse shape, but the fact Ottomans and France were about equally powerful made this winnable. Well, this was dumb luck, but it was also partially our work by strengthening the Ottomans whereever possible.

But, on this map, something comparable wasn't possible :(.

Aggie: I still have a lot of fun with C3C mods; I just think the unmodded game offers too few different approaches, and I played them all to death. And I for one do not expect Civ4 in a shape I want it too soon.