I have played a couple of OCCC's and they were all great fun. The best of them all was emperor OCCC and -despite the fact that we barely managed to win it- it made some of us curious what would happen on demigod.

I don't want to make the game too strict on this level though.

So that's why I came with the following variant:

VARIANT RULES
-Demigod OCC, with Space or Conquest as Gold medal wins, 20K culture as Silver medal win and UN as bronze medal win.
-Small map
-AI Aggression: normal
-Opponents: 5 random AI's.
-Rules: Standard, all standard single player victories enabled
-Barbarians: No barbarians/sedentary
-Level: Demigod
-C3C 1.22
-No matter what, we stay optimistic/fatalistic and try our best. I have played a lot of games against the odds and they can be the most fun.
-EDIT (feb 5, 22:30 CET): With OCC I mean: at the end of the turn we may not have more than one city. During the turn we may have as many as we want. So we are allowed to demand cities for peace and then abandon them.
-We may not build cities ourselves!
-Popped settlers have to be joined into the city. END EDIT.

BANNED TACTICS
These tactics are banned in my SG's. I got my inspiration from RBCiv, with a few slight differences:

"Phony Peace Treaty": Making Peace Treaties without having the intention to stay at peace, just to get cheap techs, cities or money.

"Mass troop jumping": When you give away a city to another tribe, all the troops from that city are transported to your capital. This can be exploited. Especialy in scenarios where you need to take an important city (for example a possible 20K city) and after that want to get your troops home safely. It is OK to give away a city with up to two defenders in it.

"RoP Rape": Using Right of Passage to move whole armies into attack position.

"Resource Piracy": Sitting on resources or deny a civ access to a tile inside the borders of the rival while at peace.

"Seed Corn": It is not allowed to buy the LAST TWO workers from the AI before 1000 BC.

"Negative cash research": The penalty of negative cash is only one unit. So there are cases where this can be worthwile. Science spending must be lowered when the cash would go below zero.

"Great Library slingshot": When you capture the Great Library city before you have Education and keep it one turn, you will get ALL the technologies known by at least two other tribes. You can get from the Middle Ages into the Modern Age with this tactic. The Great Library slingshot is not a valid tactic in my SG's. You are allowed to capture the Great Library city as one of a number of cities to weaken the owner. But it can't be a campaign to capture this city alone, hold it for a turn and then abandon it.

Others:
Things that I didn't name but are in the spirit of what I mention above I would like to have discussed.

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
microbe
ThERat
Gyathaar
Greebley
LKendter

roster is full

24hrs to post a "got it" notice, and up to 48hrs after that to finish and post your turns. First player can do 25 turns, after that 15 turns per player, 10 turns per player in war times.

We will play a small map. Probably pangaea, but maybe archipelago when we choose to be the Vikings... After winning it on regent with the Zulu, on monarch with the Arabs and on emperor with the Germans I think that a lot of civs are good choices for demigod. I really loved the Germans and can see us playing the Ottomans as well. I think a later UU (early/mid industrial) is best, but we barely made it to panzers in the emperor game. Vikings would also be interesting. I'm also open to other choices. Let's discuss!

Barbarians: No barbarians/sedentary
I am very much glad to see that. After dealing with 5CCC games and barbs, I could never go back.

I may regret it, but I don't think a 1CC will that much time. If I find new work I may be in trouble keeping all my games going...

One major request is a COASTAL city. The bonus on colussus (sp?) is just so important. My playing in Epic 47 proved that.

So you are in Lee? Welcome. Coastal I think is a must.

I'll also jump in this one if room is still available.

So you are in Lee? Welcome.

To make it clear - YES.

To make it clear - YES.

Same crew indeed!

Mark1031: You are too late for this one :( I think that 7 is a but much for an OCC. But there's room in the sid game, so you are in that team.

NP: Good luck this should be difficult. I think I'll shadow it as it should be relatively fast to play.

Well, I'll just follow this game from time to time, then. :blush: Good luck ! :)

ARGH! Sorry that I forgot about you krys :blush: You were in fact the first to volunteer :( I'm now thinking about creating two teams... We'd have 3 already if mark is still interested...

I'd be game.

Mmmmhwell, I replied because I saw you back and wanted to play with you, using your ruleset. :) The problem is I post more in a better forum, that's my mistake. :p No biggie. If you don't play in the other team, just forget it, my motivation was a sudden one-timer thingie while at work. ;)

OK krys. I make it up to you in another way then :) And I stick with one OCC game at the moment.

OK, back on topic then. I like to vote for civs and discuss their pros and cons. You can find my 2 cents in the first post.

Industrious would be nice (due to lack of workers), and either Seafaring or Agriculture as second trait.

That makes either Carthage or Maya. Also, Netherlands would be the 3rd choice.

This is just considering the traits. I've played many times Carthage, and currently playing Maya as well, plus Aggie would like Netherlands..so either one of the 3 would be OK for me.

Industrious would be nice (due to lack of workers), and either Seafaring or Agriculture as second trait.

What would be so good about agri for an OCC? I understand seafaring, because you get more commerce in your city. I'm a big fan of the Scientific Trait and I think that the free techs will still be a big help for us on demigod.

So without looking at the UU's that would mean:
-Byzantines
-Ottomans
-Persia

Ottomans have a super UU and Persia is not too bad, but an early war may not be our thing.

I'm not thinking about a possible cultural victory at the moment. The gold medal is for conquest or space, which don't have to rule each other out regarding the way we have to play it. And UN remains a last resort in all situations.

EDIT: I added a few rules to the variant in the first post. They explain what is allowed regarding cities in this OCC. Basically it means: we are allowed to capture cities and abandon them at the end of the turn and we are also allowed to demand cities for peace as long as we abandon them -again- at the end of the turn at the latest. This will allow us to create one or two armies. I will also increase unhapiness in our city. So it's not all good.

Scientific with the free techs is a nice trait for OOC, specially if we aim for the Space ship win, it also allows us to start collossus early.

Both germans and ottomans have great UU for conquest, and the science trait will allow easier fallback to space or diplomacy victory.

Agricultural IMO dont help much in OCC except allows us to grow to size 12 faster plus allows us to put out workers slightly faster.

Industrial will give us extra shield(s) from our capital most of the game, and workers can build roads to needed colonies faster.

Commercial gives us extra gold, the corruption gain is lost, but allows us to start with curraghs and alphabeth

Seafaring also gives extra gold, faster boats and start with alphabeth.. if we play on archipelagio then seafaring is very helpful...

Mil gives us more elite units.. however we will have limited use for leaders.

Expansionist is ok if on a pangea or continents.. popping huts can give us several techs plus settlers to join into our city.. early contacts is nice too.

Germans and Ottomans are both fine with me..
Vikings or possibly Bysantines (if we go for primary space/diplomacy)

Another civ to perhaps consider might be India, since their UU require no resources and have an extra hp, or japan for 4.4.2 unit that require just iron. On the other hand both these are religious, which isnt that useful when we have short anarchy anyway due to only 1 city.

Ofcourse.. if we want to raise our odds of winning, we should take a coastal start with many river tiles and ivory :p

I suppose we are going to build the GL? Sci isn't so big IMO. But it certainly is a good trait.

Every player in this game has played in the LK series. :crazyeye:
I guess that is what happens when you run 90+ SGs.


Commercial would we weak. Its main advantage is to lower corruption for a large empire. Since we have one city we only gain little extra cash.

Expansionist is very hard to say if the landmass type is random. Unless we agree to Pangaea I would say no to this trait.

Agricultural would let us grow a little faster. However, as a 1CC I don't think a non-river start is viable. If we have a river, we lost the cheap aqueduct.

Industrious means we can probably use less workers saving GPT, and an extra shield. I wouldn't mind this trait.

Scientific is always a good trait. We need to build library and university, and 1/2 price doesn't hurt. 3 free techs really help in the tech race.

Religious would also help. Getting luxuries will be hard, so cheap temples and churches don't hurt. If we go conquest, the ability to revolt to Monarchy to avoid WW is a big plus.

Seafaring for a little gold helps. The extra movement will speed contacts depending if we one a heavy island map.

Military is hard to say. If we go UN or space this is a wasted trait.


Without knowing the map type of Continents, Pangaea or Archipelago I can't make a clear choice.


Regardless of traits Sumeria still tempts me, just so I don't have to fact them.


Both Germans and Ottomans have great UU for conquest
I agree 100% with this. My first 5CCC win was with Panzers. That extra movement point is awesome.

Don't forget France. Superior starting techs, fast Workers, and especially a surprisingly strong UU in C3C.

my vote goes to Ottoman. their UU is really powerful. have to fave them in so many games and they can be a real pain there

Welcome back Aggie :D

I will vote for the Ottomans. I would be satisfied with most choices listed so far though.

Thabks Greebley. My civ burn-out has gone and so have my reasons for not playing the game. We know that this game is flawed, but we can work around that. For example by trying to win VERY difficult games :)

Anyway, I count the following preferences:
- Ottomans 3x (Aggie, Greebley, THeRat)
- Germans/Ottomans 1x (Ghyathaar)
- Netherlands/Maya/Carthage (microbe)

LKendter is undecided, but also mentions the Ottomans. Be assured: this will be a pangaea map. I only thought about archi with the Vikings.

This means that the Ottomans are the favorites. So I will start up a game with them!

What about this start? I overestimated the time I have today. So I will only be able to play tomorrow.

EDIT: And I have cold feet. I haven't played this game for a couple of months and am in doubt how to start. I was thinking: go north with the worker (on the game tile) and then start to chop. However, chopping for what? Barracks? I think that we need a couple of warriors first to scout, then granary and maybe temple and then go for the Colossus. Regarding science I'm thinking Iron Working, to gamble that we have it before others as it isn't a starting tech. Philo run doesn't seem possible with our techs. Lit run looks to be more logical.

What about this start?
Growth will be good once the game is irrigated and some forest cleared. However, I don't see a SINGLE grassland. Initial growth will really be bad.

We start with BW and Masonry? Only thing we have available to chop then is Barracks, spearmen and warriors..
The game tile is 2 food 2 shield 1 gold from the start.. the whale tile gives 2 food and 1 shield.. so we can delay chopping for up to 30 turns, but at that time we should be build collossus.. so the shields would be wasted

We do want some scouts out early.. how about chopping either the game or the silk tile first to complete a spearman in 4 turns?

Do you really want to settle on spot? Sure, the Whale is nice, but a city there would have too many water tiles for my taste (9).
I'd send the Worker to the game first, and unless something really ugly shows up, move the Settler 1 NW. You'll loose the Whale, but gain 5 more land tiles...

If a Grassland tile shows up there, what about that sequence:
Settler 1 NW, Worker to game. Found city, Wealth for 2 turns. Chop in 3 to complete scouting Warrior. Then growth to size 2 with completing a 2nd Worker.

I will try a few other rolls then...

I'm out of time (back in 24 h), so if anyone else will try to generate us a beauty of a start... I think we can be lenient towards ourselves here. We need a killer start. Or at least a very good one...

Aggie, do you want me to generate some starts?

That's OK. I was just checking in from another place. But since it's late I will not stay up much longer...

ok, I generated some starts. they are all coastal or we start in the vincinity of it. all with the settings we wished to have.

#1
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ag13a.jpg

#2
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ag13b.jpg

#3
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ag13c.jpg

any comments?

Hmm..none look really good.

I think all those starts are fine, but I don't think they are a lot better than my first proposal.

I have done a few rolls myself this morning and came to this one. I think it's the best one that I roled:

The start:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG13-OCCdemigtry2.JPG

I move the worker to the BG-tile:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG13-OCCdemigtry2workermove.JPG

And the settler on the commerce of the silks:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG13-OCCdemigtry2settlermove.JPG

Two BG's, a cow, 2 silks, 2 hills, more grassland and chop options, the river, only 2 sea tiles. Big risk of being blockaded and losing our rep when trading via the sea?

Shall we vote for one of the 5 proposals or do we want to try again? I myself want to choose from one of these 5. We can't get a LOT better I think...

Yeah, your start is better.

I agree with Aggie, let's choose one of those 5. what do we expect? 2 wheats and 3 cows with 1 coastal tile?
I want to add to the discussion option #3 once settler moves to coast

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ag13c2.jpg

and to add to. my choice is either Aggie's #2 or the above mentioned #3.

I would go for my start. The silks are killer luxuries with a lot of extra commerce. Wouldn't it be nice to have Colossus with this start?

ok, so who is a going to start this? you?

I like to start it. But first I like the input on the starts of the other players.

I would go for the cow and silk one

I now notice that...my 2nd example is a normal sized map :mad: I played a few turns and saw that we have 8 opponents :(

I try other maps now...

I now notice that...my 2nd example is a normal sized map :mad: I played a few turns and saw that we have 8 opponents :(

I try other maps now...
Ouch, that sucks. I know that lousy feeling. I've restarted a few LK series games due to wrong setup.

I really did like the silks. Having a couple of high revenue tiles really helps.

Well, this is my 3rd option. Forget the 2nd one :( I think that the starts of ThERat are not strong enough for this ultra difficult game...

If we take this one, what will our first move be? I'm leaning towards SE because that we we will have less sea tiles and the cows within our first 9. Despite the fact that it is a BG tile.

EDIT: I think it's also vital to be somewhat in the centre of the map, for the early contacts.

If we take this one, what will our first move be? I'm leaning towards SE because that we we will have less sea tiles and the cows within our first 9. Despite the fact that it is a BG tile.

We can get stuck in a roll the starts forever mode. I say go with this one.

It is sad to settle the BG, but fast growth is key for us to build the Colossus. We also have the advantage the we can easily use the mountains and hills with all the excess food.

Thinking about it, we can go to the hill south first and reveal a lot more of the place. We would then lose only 1 turn more if we decide to go to the BG. Maybe worth it.

The lost shield from the BG should be regained at size 7.. plus at that point we also get bonus shield from industrial trait I believe.. does that turn the city square into 3shields?

I think we should go SE. What we can see makes me feel it is unlikely to want to move, we get a river and are on the ocean. As stated we get the BG back at size 7 which we will be in short order. I see no reason to waste a worker move.

OK. I'll go to the BG. Expect a turnlog within the hour.

This is a small pangaea map with sedentary barbs. The rest is random.

The worker goes to the cattle and the settler goes SE. It reveals a whale 2 tiles south! It will be wasted, because I will not move to another position anymore, risking even more turns.

Turn 1 (3950 BC) Istanbul founded and we see a 2nd silk. Starting with a warrior. I set science to min Iron Working, in the hope that we are the only one with Bronze Working...

Turn 2 - 5 (3900 - 3750 BC) :sleep:

IT: warrior->warrior

Turn 6 (3700 BC) Warrior goes NW on the hill.

Turn 7 (3650 BC) Istanbul to size 2, lux to 10%. We have wines close by.

Turn 8 (3600 BC) :sleep:

IT: warrior->warrior.

Turn 9 (3550 BC) 2nd warrior goes east.

Turn 10 (3500 BC) :sleep:

Turn 11 (3450 BC) We meet the Hittites and Persians. Both have Alphabet and Pottery. Persia also has Ceremonial Burial. No trade possible. Istanbul to size 3. Lux tax to 20%.

IT: Warrior->Colossus.

Turn 12 (3400 BC) We meet the Inca. They have the same techs as Persia last turn. Persia now also has Warrior Code. We give the Inca 4 gpt and 15 gold for Ceremonial Burial. The Hittites give us Pottery for CB and 10 gold.

Warrior stays home. Lux back to 10%. Production switched to granary.

Turn 13 (3350 BC) Inca have WC too now. We can't afford it though.

Turn 14 (3300 BC) The Hittites now also have WC. All three are up WC and Alpha.

Turn 15 (3250 BC) Size 4 Istanbul needs 20% lux tax.

Turn 16 (3200 BC) We meet Sumeria, who lack Masonry and CB, but have WC :) Masonry gives us Warrior Code and 35 gold.

Turn 17 (3150 BC) :sleep:

IT: 5 Hittite warriors enter our lands!!!

Turn 18 (3100 BC) This is looking bad...

IT: Yup, they are next to our gates!!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG13-Hittietresspass.JPG

Turn 19 (3050 BC) FWIW, size 5 Istanbul needs 30% tax...

IT: The Hittites turn around!!!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG13-Hittitesleave.JPG

Sumeria asks us to leave their borders. Persia starts the Pyramids.

Turn 20 (3000 BC) So we are still alive!

IT: The Hittites leave permantly(?) A Persian spear and warrior are coming towards us now. Granary->Colossus. The most powerful nations are:

-Persians
-Dutch
-Inca
-Hittites
-Sumerians
-Ottomans

Turn 21 (2950 BC) :sleep:

IT: The Hittites come back!!!!

Turn 22 (2900 BC) :sleep:

IT: The Hittites appear to follow the Persians...

Turn 23 (2850 BC) Size 6 Istanbul needs 40% tax. The Inca know The Wheel.

IT: OK, the Hittites leave us AGAIN.

Turn 24 (2800 BC) All but Sumeria knows The Wheel. Persia and Inca know Iron Working.

Turn 25 (2750 BC) Istanbul is size 7 now. 15 turns for Colossus, but we COULD still switch to temple without losing shields (11 spt now, we need another 20 for temple). I daren't take that risk though. Colossus is vital imho. I haven't hooked up the silks in my 25. I think we shouldn't wait too long for this. We need to lower tax and get back into the tech dealing business.

To the west of us both Hittites and Persians have a SoD walking around.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG13-2500BC.jpg

2750 BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG13-2750BC.zip)

EDIT: changed the last link to point to the actual save!

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie ----- just played
microbe -- up
ThERat --- on deck
Gyathaar
Greebley
LKendter

The "2750 Save" is a link to a picture. Can we have a link to the save.

:crazyeye: This crazy Hittie 'SoD' made this beginning one of the more entertaining SG starts I've read so far... :lol:

After winning an OCC emperor space race on a standard map in Epic 46, I'm curious to see how a DG OCC on a small map will play out. Good luck!

-Kylearan

LKendter, he has the wrong extension. The Real Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG13-2750BC.zip). Good luck with this game. Colossus + Silks (2!) = Gold. Very powerful.

@LKendter: changed it!

EDIT: Lee, you now have 3 links to choose from :lol:

@Kyrealan: note that I returned to CIV because of the lack of intelligence of the AI in the other games I played in the last months :lol: I am curious about the outcome myself. Especially considering the fact that my emperor OCCC SG (AG10) already appeared to be asking the best of the team. But I started this one to find out. The most fun SG's are those which seem impossible but somehow challenge you and possibly even turn out to be winnable :)

looks like the save is at: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG13-2750BC.zip

Edit: Crossposted with Aggie so nm :)

@Kyrealan: note that I returned to CIV because of the lack of intelligence of the AI in the other games I played in the last months :lol: I am curious about the outcome myself. Especially considering the fact that my emperor OCCC SG (AG10) already appeared to be asking the best of the team. But I started this one to find out. The most fun SG's are those which seem impossible but somehow challenge you and possibly even turn out to be winnable :)
Btw.. I assume you know about the barbarian fix Aggie? Could be the random hittite troop movements is from AIPatroling if you have that turned on

Yes, even if sedentary there COULD be barbarians in this game. True. They may have popped a hut.

The barbarian fix also makes units move around randomly if they have no other tasks, not just barbarians

:lol: Those Hitties just wanted to say Hello.

I got it, will play today.

It's sad to see we could only use 2 of the 4 cattles.

Hittite Leader: King Aggie has just come back from a long hiatus so lets give a royal welcome. Take 5 bands of warriors and charge purposefully toward his only city, run around three times and come back. It should scare the pants off him and give us a good laugh.

Hittite General: Oh that sounds fun. Lets go men.

--------------

Looks good so far. I would stay on track with the Colossus.

preturn: We are running 40% lux. We should have built another MP before starting colossus..

2710BC: We meet Netherlands and trade Masonry+3g for Alphabet.

Now what? Do I abandon our min research on Iron Working and start on Writing? It's a tough call.

I raise sci to 20 to get Iron Working in 26 turns.

2670BC: Sumeria has monopoly on Mysticism! And it agrees to trade with Alphabet!

I dial up Inca to see what he offers for Mysticism. Iron Working? Plus Wheel probably? I add 38g and get both techs. Then sell Mysticism to Persia for 99g.

So we are tech leader? Great.

Min on Writing as that's what we could afford.

I lower food and work on the forests to get Colossus in 10 turns instead of 13, and 3fpt instead of 5. By working on the silks I can lower lux to 30.

We have two sources of horses close to us, one just outside of our border. We have iron close too, but AI will settle on it.

2550BC: I pillage roads which connects 3 Dutch cities just to screw it up a bit. :evil:

2510BC: We connect silks. Huh? Just? But we cannot lower lux.

2470BC: Pillage another Dutch road. It's capital is disconnected. :D

2430BC: Netherlands has Writing but lacks a bunch of techs. Monopoly techs are expensive, but I get it by Iron Working, CB, Wheel and 91g. I then sell Mysticism back and get 104g.

Since I have the gold, I set to Philosophy in 15 turns with a bit deficit.

An Inca conscript warrior enters our territory..

I establish embassy with Inca, size-1, 3spt building Colossus in 47 turns. It's got ivory. Inca knows everyone except Netherlands. Phew, otherwise we'd not be able to buy Writing so easily.

2390BC: Netherlands and Persia has got HBR and no trade possible.

I establish embassy with Hitties, size-1, 3spt building Pyramids in 93 turns. It has furs.

We have 123g with -1gpt so I do not establish more, as I don't go below 100g and let AI demand all gold away causing us to lose buildings or workers.

2310BC: We build Colossus. I start rax. We need two vet spearmen to defend ourselves.

2230BC: Netherlands and Persia are at war!

Persia has no iron, that's good. It's cute to see a bunch of regular warriors and spearmen fighting each other.

Note: Philosophy in 5 turns. We could take CoL then start on Lit at a slow path. We should trade for HBR otherwise AI will demand it anyway.

After the spear we should be able to lower lux to 20. We should start MoM with max shield and should be able to build in about 13 turns. Then go full speed on Great Library by Pyramids.

We build Colossus.
We get the key wonder. When playing a limited number of city game a revenue boast is a major plus.

Netherlands/Persia battlefield:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG13-2230BC.jpg

Horses and iron. Somehow I suspect the Hittie town has to go. However, it's there better than Sumeria.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG13-2150BC.jpg

Wow! A very encouraging start for an OCC. Colossus and close to Philo :) I agree with CoL and min science Lit. We don't want to lose TGL with a tech demand from one of the AI. We need to be at least quite far with a pre-build for that to be allowed to happen. I also agree with MoM and then TGL.

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
microbe -- just played
ThERat --- up
Gyathaar -- on deck
Greebley
LKendter

great going so far, I got it and will play tonight

so the plan is to:

- build 2 spears, MoM and GLib?
- as for research. if the philo gamble pays, go for CoL? I would prefer to get the tech that's most expensive to research at that moment, whichever tech that is.

The free tech should be one that is quite far for most or all of the AI to research. This is often CoL. IIRC other techs are more populair. OTOH one demand and we lose our monopoly. I personally think it's more important NOT to choose Lit (but go for it min science) than anything else.

EDIT: I agree with the rest of the plan.

- as for research. if the philo gamble pays, go for CoL? I would prefer to get the tech that's most expensive to research at that moment, whichever tech that is.

It's Map Making, which AI is almost guaranteed to research first after Writing. I normally choose CoL as it's one step closer to Republic.

I agree with Aggie that which tech isn't important. The key is to time GL right (meaning research Lit in about 30 turns). If AI doesn't come up with techs fast, Philosophy or CoL will get demanded away.

Pre-turn
see that we can assign one tile differently making a beaker more for science :lol:
press enter

IT Dutch ask us to leave

1. 2210BC
philo now in 3

IT Sumer throw us out

2. 2070BC
2nd MP allows us to drop lux to 20%

3. 2030BC nada

IT Hittites demand writing, have to cave :(
Sumer asks us to leave, Persia demands 24g :mad:
we get philo and CoL as planned. start MoM, go for min run on literature

4. 2010BC
MM for max shield, get MoM in 12
trade CoL to Persia for 71g and HBR (want to give us headstart for MoM, don't trade philo yet)
calculate: MOM in 12 and pyramids in 24, so lit should be around 35, set science to 30% for 36 turns

we are up money and techs, hope it won't get all demanded away

5. 1950BC nth much

6. 1910BC
our borders expanded and city grows to 10
MoM in 9, we make 19spt (around 20 turns for GLib)

IT Incan demand HBR, cave :mad:

7. 1870BC
what's up with the AI, no new techs at all now for 7 turns
increase science to 40%, lit in 24

8. 1830BC nth

IT Dutch start Oracle

9. 1790BC
Persia knows MM, but refuses to trade with philo (also monopoly)

10. 1750BC
our warrior successfully blocks Hittite settler pair to enter, there is a choke in the west

11. 1725BC nth

12. 1700BC MM has been traded
try to keep our monopoly for now and trade CoL + 60g to Dutch for MM

IT Inca start to build pyramids, hope they need longer

13. 1675BClower science so we get lit in 22
realise we didn't establish embassies, do that with Sumer, their pyramids in 43 :lol:

14. 1650BC
Persia learned philo, no more monopoly

IT we get MoM

15. 1625BC
we make currently 20spt, but will grow in 1, pyramids in 20
lower lux to 10%, increase science to 40%, so we get lit in 16

I tried to get back our northern warrior, but he kept on getting booted back north.
the western warrior blocks the choke, we can send 3rd warrior to explore western part

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ag131625.jpg

I haven't loaded the save, but I assume AI haven't completed any wonders. It would be good if someone gets Polytheism, so we have a safe fallback to ToA, otherwise, AI might cascade to pyramids before we do (at hindsight, we should probably have gotten Poly as free tech). If we haven't established all embassies, do for the remaining. I did two in my turns and AIs were like 47 turns from Oracle. Check how big those capitals are to see how much faster they might have got. We may just investigate those if not sure.

GL is very important. After GL we can connect horses, start a horse rush and start conquering the world? Raze the two Hittie towns, connect iron, and also build some swords.. Use wars to slow AI down.

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
microbe
ThERat --- just played
Gyathaar -- up
Greebley --- on deck
LKendter

Looks great! Very clever to adjust the time to get Lit to the Pyramid prebuild :)

Got it.. seems like i am suddenly up in all my SGs, but will take this one first I think since it will be quickest

BTW, among all the wonder cities, only Cuzco (Inca) is coastal, this means others won't be able to cascade to it. By looking at the map, Cuzco has 8spt. It's probably close to completing Oracle, and I certainly hope so. If it switches to Great Lighthouse we may want to investigate at some point to decide how fast Lit should come.

1625BC, turn 0:
We still lack embassies with persia and netherlands, so I establish embassies:

Well.. I can immediately see that our pyramid prebuild will expire.. persepolis is size 6, making 10 shields per turn and is 2 turns away from completing pyramids.

Amsterdam is size 3, making 5 shields per turn and building oracle.. 37 turns to go.

I switch Istanbul to Great lighthouse (due in 15 turns) and raise Sci to 50% so literature will be done in 13 turns.

IBT:
Persia kicks our unit out of their territory

1600BC, turn 1:
put new citizen from growth on hill that is currently getting mined.
Have to raise lux to 20%

IBT:
Persia start Oracle
Persia complete pyramids
Summeria start ToA (good timing on researching that for us!)
Hittites start Oracle
Dutch start Oracle
Dutch start Great Lighthouse

1575BC, turn 2:
Summeria has monopoly on Polytheism. IW and Writing is doubtful to getting Poly.. Summeria also knows incas, so they are sure to trade poly for writing and IW to them..
So I sell them writing for all their gold (23gold)
Give Summeria MM,IW and CoL for polytheism (they are now even in techs with incas so they will have nothing to trade for poly)

Switch great lighthouse build to ToA and lower sci to 40% again

IBT:
nada

1550BC, turn 3:
Both netherlands and Persia has philosophy now

IBT:
Persia kicks out exploring warrior again

1525BC, turn 4:
nothing

IBT:
nothing

1500BC, turn 5:
nothing

IBT:
nothing

1475BC, turn 6:
worker finish mine.. start road

IBT:
persia kicks out exploring warrior yet again.. might as well wait till the unclaimed square between persia and dutch are filled before trying to move again

1450BC, turn 7:
nothing

IBT:
Incas start great lighthouse
Incas complete oracle
Dutch start great lighthouse

1425BC, turn 8:
incas picked up philosophy

IBT:
nothing

1400BC, turn 9:
Hittites picked up MM.

IBT:
nothing

1375BC, turn 10:
Worker goes north to hill
spot horses in hittite territory right past the choke

IBT:
nothing

1350BC, turn 11:
worker starts mine
The nearby hittitie town at the wines gets culture expansion and claims the iron

IBT:
hittities kick out exploring warrior

1325BC, turn 12:
nothing

IBT:
nothing

1300BC, turn 13:
looks like incas learned philosophy and traded it to Sumeria for polytheism
I lower sci to 20%, literature in 2 turns

IBT:
nothing

1275BC, turn 14:
nothing

IBT:
nothing

1250BC, turn 15:
Literature comes in. I switch the prebuild to GLib, due in 4 turns.

Dutch has a worker for sale.. not sure if we are allowed to buy it?
I set to research on 10% on republic.. this can be switched or turned off

Collossus has just started giving Tourism bonus :)

The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG13_1250BC.SAV)

Dutch has a worker for sale.. not sure if we are allowed to buy it?
They have been at war and may lack workers. Let's just not buy before 1000BC...

I have played demigod games being backward at this stage. Yet we are tech leaders and almost have TGL!

I guess we want to build temple, harbor, library and marketplace soon. Library may not be needed, but adds to the culture.

I like microbe's idea of razing a couple of cities in the not to far future :)

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
microbe
ThERat
Gyathaar -- just played
Greebley --- up
LKendter --- on deck

I assume we will want republic btw?

Republic will be the best government for us. We won't be in constant wars :) But more than min science is wasting money. So: good call on min science :D

1250BC, turn 15:
Literature comes in. I switch the prebuild to GLib, due in 4 turns.


To be safest it'd be nice to get Lit and complete GL at the same turn, since we have ToA as prebuild.

What's our next target? I really like taking out Sumeria, since it's big and its territory can't be easily claimed by others. But they have good UU and we need swordmen, which means we may need to take out the Hittie town first. Or we can create a colony and use the iron before the town gets a temple. We also want to dogpile Sumeria probably.

To be safest it'd be nice to get Lit and complete GL at the same turn, since we have ToA as prebuild.
Yes, I would normally do that.. but in this case it should be safe. Only one civ was building ToA, then rest are building 300 shield wonders

great going so far. a horse rush to take them on, we are lucky with that choke I think can easily set up a defense there. razing some towns would give us hopefully some slaves as well. 1 worker is a little pathetic

Got it.

Preturn: Polytheism is known. I trade it for 128 gold from Persia. I would trade for the worker myself. I don't think it would hurt the AI and it we could use it for a Horse colony, but thats just my opinion. I respect the previous post and don't buy it. We can certainly live without it.

Early:
We get the GLib -> Library -> Spear

Build the Spear to block settlers from getting too close. I want them a bit farther away from the capitol

Mid:
Gilgamesh demands Literature. We give in.
Decide to give the rest of the AI Lit as well. That way he won't gain gold from the steal and they have nothing worth trading. The AI all go to Gracious.

Temple->Worker->Harbor

End:
Trade for a worker since it is after 1000BC and build a Horse Colony.

Horse->Horse->?

Trade our Silks to Inca for Ivory and 72 gold.
Get Math from the GLib.

Notes:
Hmm. I just noticed I miscalculated. I was supposed to stop in 875 not 825. Oops. Next player could take 18 to even things out.

We can disband our 2 warriors soon. I just want to see where we pop to up north now the city has expanded.

We can build units (costing us more gold), Wealth (for more money we can't yet spend), or Temple of Artimis.
We are at +16 gold so we have some gold for units. Problem is the only one I would want to beat up is Sumeria and a stack of horsemen doesn't seem sufficient. Since we can't claim land we don't want to beat up the Hittites in my book as we want the AI as balanced as possible in strength.

I wouldn't mind allying everyone vs the Sumerians and taking a stack of Horse and cats spear to damage them in any way we can. I would feel better if we damaged them early. Ideal timing would be right after we can build a market for more gold for the allying part. Sumeria could easily become a single dominant AI and we all know where that would leave us. :suicide:

With the GLib, we can continue to pump units till it expires, with occasional building of market or happiness buildings.

With the GLib, we can continue to pump units till it expires, with occasional building of market or happiness buildings.
We need to decide HOW we want to win. We make 21 culture in 825BC. We are in excellent shape to go for 20K.

I would take 20K culture as Silver medal win. Demigod and 20K is a challenge with a empire, yet alone one lousy city.

I tried to build the Temple and Library quickly with 20K in mind. I think we want to keep it open and build Culture Buildings as soon as we get the tech. Not sure if we can get the Temple of Artimis. We could try - we may be able to switch to something else. My only worry is Sumeria. Will we have to interfere to keep them from winning?

I would certainly try conquest, and it appears to be quite doable. Culture is not exciting.

I like us to go for conquest or space. The culture option is there when we find out that the other wins are not possible at all. In fact, I rather win UN while we tried conquest or space than culture without trying. We still have to get our UU, extremely powerful for a long period.

I like the idea of allying against the Sumerians (when we are ready!). They are not our closest neighbours, so we are not in direct danger in case of a war.

Next turn we will get Republic. So we need to revolt.

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie ------ on deck
microbe
ThERat
Gyathaar
Greebley --- just played
LKendter --- up

So, to make my position clear: I rather see us building troops now than the ToA. Naturally we should build the marketplace and other useful improvements when we can.

The only reason for me to add culture and UN as possible wins is the fact that our emperor game was so close. It was especially difficult to keep ourselves into the tech race at the end of the industrial age. However, without wanting to underestimate the fact that things will get tougher later on we are looking at a very healthy situation right now. We are tech frontrunners and we get our free tech very soon. We should be able to reach our Sipahi while still ahead our close to the tech leaders. A well-timed GA may make it possible to advance into the Industrial Age ahead. And this may lead to us getting ToE. But now I'm planning a bit ahead I think :) We naturally also have interest in the Knight's Templar and Shakespeare. That said, Shakespeare would need us to deviate from the required techs to advance. Something we possibly can't afford.

Imho our first big decision is whether or not we try to grab Copernicus and/or Newton. These are only a bit useful for conquest but very useful for Space. That said, getting Copernicus on demigod -the wonder that probably will end up in a cascade- is very difficult anyway.

I like the idea of allying against the Sumerians (when we are ready!). They are not our closest neighbours, so we are not in direct danger in case of a war. agree with this plan. I don't really like us to build horses since we waste a lot of shields. but with this set up we have no chance unless we want to create an archer rush.

[edit] didn't see your latest post, Aggie. yes, your long term plan sounds great. if it goes all that well, that is. Shakespeare is truly a great wonder for our situation, but we would need to broker techs to get there, I don't think we would want to research those techs ourselves.

I don't really like us to build horses since we waste a lot of shields. but with this set up we have no chance unless we want to create an archer rush.

I do understand that we can produce more than 15 spt. So that would mean that building horses is wasting these shields. How do we counter this? Can we emphasize a few tiles on gold (coastal squares) and get more income instead of shields above 15 spt? I say this without access to the save...

EDIT: I don't like archers. Besides them being slow we really want horses to upgrade to knights and then sipahi.

I say this without access to the save...
ok, for you: currently we have this situation:

max shield will be 24 spt at 33 gpt (once we grow to 12 next turn and if we would mine that hill)
working ocean doesn't help since that river gives us the commerce bonus already
so we are wasting 18 shields for every horse built and I don't think there is much we can do about it

edit: for knights this will be ideal at 70s with 24spt. we need 3 turns wasting only 2s.
for sipahi at 100s we can mine a cow and have 25spt, perfect actually
once we hit 12 pop, we should not forget to do that to get to 25spt

Thanks! What happens when we turn into a republic (within now and 5 turns this will be the case, two civs have the tech already)?

What happens when we turn into a republic oh man, I do all the calculations forgetting that we are in despotism :gripe:

ok based on republic we get this scenario:

29spt (if both cows are mined)
16spt, if we maximise commerce. (work those ocean and river tiles only)

that's a nice thing to play with depending on what we want to build

ok based on republic we get this scenario:

29spt (if both cows are mined)
16spt, if we maximise commerce. (work those ocean and river tiles only)

that's a nice thing to play with depending on what we want to build

These are all good analysis, but strategic decisions need to be made regardless of the micromanagement, so it really doesn't matter. If we go to war, we have to build horsemen or swordsmen.

Umm.. in republic:
city square (industrious on BG) : 3s 2f
4x mined BG: 8s 8f
3x mined hills: 9s 3f
2x mined cow: 4s 8f
3x forest: 6s 3f

this should give 30shields at 0 extra food at size 12 if I am not wrong (?)

I don't know who is right but I sure hope Gyathaar is :D (30 spt, no growth) Anyway, we are able to build horses with our own resource and that is a luxury in an OCC. We shouldn't waste this opportunity imvho...

city square (industrious on BG) : 3s 2f Gyathaar, sounds all good BUT for the city square, that gives only 2s 2f. small difference, big effect. anyway when we build horses, we simply maximise commerce and generate 17s.
but, if we really revolt next turn, lets build a unit that finished in 1 turn before we revolt. a spear?

If i am correct we should irrigate some normal grass tiles so we can have some extra growth and fill up the food bin when we dont need 30spt (so we can pop some workers if needed)

Gyathaar, sounds all good BUT for the city square, that gives only 2s 2f.
It only gives 2 shields in despotism because of the despotism penalty I think

Imho our first big decision is whether or not we try to grab Copernicus and/or Newton. These are only a bit useful for conquest but very useful for Space. That said, getting Copernicus on demigod -the wonder that probably will end up in a cascade- is very difficult anyway.
Regardless of how we want to win keeping up in tech is very difficult. This would really help with the tech pace. Without it we lock out the possibility of space IMO and if we don't snag some MA wonders we lock out the possibility of 20K. I think not going for it locks us to ONLY conquest. We will have to decide by then if we think our position is that strong for conquest.

I think you guys should determine and state clearly whether you're playing strict or relaxed OCC rules. As I recall, Aggie plays relaxed OCC and LKendter plays strict. It makes a fair bit of difference.....

Arathorn

The city square will have 2s out of despotism.

I think you guys should determine and state clearly whether you're playing strict or relaxed OCC rules. As I recall, Aggie plays relaxed OCC and LKendter plays strict. It makes a fair bit of difference.....

Arathorn

I stated this clearly in my variant rules (1st post). I play relaxed OCC...

I stated this clearly in my variant rules (1st post). I play relaxed OCC...
Oh... good thing you pointed that out since I always play strict too, and didnt even consider it was relaxed :p

I didn't want to sound harsh with my last remark by the way. I didn't have time but still wanted to answer Arathorn's question...

I actually didnt know to be honest.. so it was a good thing you point it out :p I looked back at first post and I see you added it after I last read that post :)
It makes a big difference since relaxed OCC allows armies, and thus HE, MA and possibly Pentagon :)

LKendter, do you know that you are up?

EDIT: 24 hrs are up and it is very tempting to skip LKendter, just because I can :D But that's not what what this time restriction is about and I'm sure that Lee will finish within now and 48 hours. He's probably sleeping at the moment, so can't possibly have seen my reminder.

LKendter, do you know that you are up? of all people its him... :lol:

btw something with the signature font seems wrong, size 1 becomes huge

LKendter, do you know that you are up?

EDIT: 24 hrs are up and it is very tempting to skip LKendter, just because I can :D But that's not what what this time restriction is about and I'm sure that Lee will finish within now and 48 hours. He's probably sleeping at the moment, so can't possibly have seen my reminder.


Somehow I totally lost that fact. Somewhere in all the talk I missed who was next. Got it...

Yes, I was asleep at 12:51 AM EST.

825 BC
I don't think there is a debate on Artemis vs. horses. With 4 civs already on Artemis we won't get it. To bad, as that would have all but locked a 20K win as a backup.

Turn 87 is a very odd place to be. I will play to 100 to get it back even.
(IT) The Great Library gives us Republic.


800 BC
I revolt and draw 4 turns despite one city.
(IT) This isn't the news I wanted. Sumeria declares on the Hittites.
The Great Library gives us Monarchy. I tell the domestic advisor that we are happy with Anarchy. :crazyeye:


775 BC
(IT) Sumeria captures Harran.


730 BC
I disband the trapped exploring warrior by Persia. It will keep being booted to the same useless spot.
I open up the choke point near the horses. I need the Hittites to get units to the front ASAP before Sumeria is a monster.


670 BC
(IT) The Sumerian monster completes Artemis.
The Inca complete Hanging Gardens.


650 BC
(IT) The Great Library gives us Currency.


630 BC
Simply trying to build up enough horsemen to intervene against Sumeria.
(IT) The Hittites have their GA.
:wallbash: I open of the choke to save the Hittites, and they repay us by building a city their. :wallbash:


610 BC
I don't feel that I have a choice. I declare war on Sumeria. I give the Netherlands Monarchy and $125 to join the party. The 2 other civs are just too expensive.
(IT) Well this was totally unexpected. Persia declares war on the Dutch.


590 BC
(IT) The Great Library is running on overdrive and gives us Feudalism.


570 BC
(IT) Persia completes Statue of Zeus.


550 BC
I get an elite horse killing an EW.


==========================

Summary:
Trying to get enough horses to go on the offensive.


ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)
ThERat
Gyathaar
Greebley
LKendter

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG13-550BC.zip

Got it.

War vs Sumeria should be fun! We have to raze the new Hittite town Adana at one point. It will steal our horses.

Screenie for the lurkers:

We can sell Engineering to Persia for 25 gpt and 947 gold. I will do so. The Hittites and Inca have luxes for trade. This is cheap, but will bring us nothing (lux can't go from 10% to 0%).

We are not far from obtaining Chivalry. I don't know if a Knight's Templar is an option. We probably just as well can go for horses and then upgrade. The money we have already combined with what Persia gives should be good for this. Only thing...we lack iron and need to raze Harran for that.

EDIT: I will probably play tomorrow.

now this will get interesting. I still think we should go for knights templar. by the way, since we are now in republic, do we make 29spt or the magic 30spt?

As of my turns it was still less then 30 shields. I was still trying to figure out someway for 30 sheilds.

I was still trying to figure out someway for 30 shields rails would be the answer, but that will take some time :lol:

edit: hey what about mining that mountain, would that help?

Yes, sadly I was wrong.. seems the industrious bonus dont stack with the ragained shield from settling on BG or something.. anyone know of any research done on what exactly you gain from tiles you settle on?
(In my current game I see that a size 1 town that was built on a iron hill gives 3 shields to a non industrious civ..)

I see 2 possible ways to get 30 shields (before rails and size 13).. if an iron resource magically moves, or there is a bonus grass under one of the forests.. then can work the mountain instead of a forest

bonus grass under one of the forests
Well I know the silks forest won't have any bonus grasslands...

Yeah, forests with lux wont have BG in a random game (can be edited to have it).. so that leaves just one possible forest :)

The industrious shield doesn't come until size 13. I've only looked into settling on grassland and BG.

The industrious shield doesn't come until size 13. I've only looked into settling on grassland and BG.
Hmm.. guess the civliopedia is wrong then.. it says: "... and the center city square of all cities produces extra shields in cities and metros"

We can also grow for a bit then starve for a bit. If we grow at say 5 a turn, making 15+ shields for two turns, and then starve for 10 turns at 30 shields, we can make 11 Horsemen in 12 turns. It requires a lot of workers to switch quickly, so it probably wouldn't be that good fo course.

Since the CFC search feature is still disabled (making CFC a so-so site), I can give you a link where I posted the ultimate reference for city tiles, at least to my knowledge. ;) Here here here. (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2080) To be read like a processing code.

Since the CFC search feature is still disabled (making CFC a so-so site), I can give you a link where I posted the ultimate reference for city tiles, at least to my knowledge. ;) Here here here. (http://www.civ3duelzone.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2080) To be read like a processing code.
Thanks :)
That explains a lot

Krys, thanks for the info. I think you are a great guy, but I really don't care what you think of CFC. Even or especially when you tell us every other post ;)

The Turnlog:

IHT: We are making 27 spt. I switch a couple of laborers to work on sea tiles and get us more income. We now earn 3 gpt more (34 gpt).

We sell Engineering to Persia for 25 gpt and 947 gold.

IT: Horse->horse

Turn 1 (530 BC) The Persians get Monotheism.

IT: Sumeria starts Sun Tzu. Hittites start Great Wall.

Turn 2 (510 BC) Zzzzz

IT: Horse->horse

Turn 3 (490 BC) Zzzzz

IT: Hittites lose 3 warriors vs Sumeria.

Turn 4 (470 BC) Zzzzz

IT: Now the Hittites lose two spears. But their archer and spear win battles as well. Horse->horse.

Turn 5 (450 BC) Zzzzz

IT: Sumeria and Hittites keep fighting. I see a brave Hittite warrior kill a Sumerian sword!

Turn 6 (430 BC) Zzzzz

IT: Sumeria is winning the battle vs the Hittites.

Turn 7 (410 BC) Persia now also has Invention. 5/5 horse vs 1/4 sword: 1-1, horse wins. [1-0]

IT: Persia finishes Sun Tsu.

Turn 8 (390 BC) Zzzzz

IT: 3 MDI and 2 swords are at our borders. One Enkidu nears our city. Horse->Treb

Turn 9 (370 BC)

4/5 horse vs 3/3 Enkidu: 1-3, Horse retreats
4/4 horse vs 2/3 Enkidu: 2-0, Horse wins. [2-0]

IT: Sumeria asks straight peace, but we have a MA with the Dutch. They decide to split the troops. Part of it goes to us, part of it goes to the Hittites. We have to face 2 MDI and 1 sword.

Turn 10 (350 BC) Zzzzz

IT: Hittites and Persia sign an alliance vs the Dutch! Persia starts Knights Templar!! Treb->treb.

Turn 11 (330 BC) Treb takes a HP from a reg MDI.

4/4 horse vs 3/3 sword on hill: 1-3, horse retreats.
4/4 horse vs 3/3 MDI on hill: 1-3, horse retreats.
4/4 horse vs 2/3 MDI on hill: 2-1, horse wins.
4/4 horse vs 2/3 MDI on hill: 2-2, horse wins and promotes.
4/4 horse vs 2/3 MDI on hill: 2-1, horse wins. This was a good day [party] [5-0]

IT: Hittites lose Tyrana to Sumeria.

Turn 12 (310 BC) Persia is very rich. But we have twice as much.

IT: 3 swords, and Enkidu and a MDI enter our lands. Treb->treb.

Turn 13 (290 BC) Sumeria now also has Monotheism.

IT: Sumeria joins another MDI in the SOD, which now climbs a hill NW of our capital. Persia demands silks. I accept. Silks would only give us 70 gold anyway... We get Mono from TGL.

Turn 14 (270 BC) Persia is the only civ with Invention and Chivalry.

2 trebs take a HP from vet swords.
5/5 horse vs 4/4 sword on hill: 4-2, horse wins.
5/5 horse vs 4/4 Enkidu on hill: 4-1, horse wins.
4/4 horse vs 3/3 sword on hill: 3-0, horse wins.
4/4 horse vs 3/4 sword on hill: 0-4, sword wins.
4/4 horse vs 3/4 sword on hill: 3-3, horse wins.
4/4 horse vs 3/3 MDI on hill: 3-2, horse wins.
4/4 horse vs 3/3 MDI on hill: 0-3, sword retreats.
4/4 horse vs 3/3 sword on hill: 3-3, horse wins. [11-1]

Another lucky break. Only one loss! I expected more retreats and losses, but overall a good outcome. We have 3 horses still ready for action. But they have no target.

IT: Sumeria finishes the Great Wall :mad: Treb->horse.

Turn 15 (250 BC)

3 trebs try to hit a MDO on a mountain. Only one manages to take a HP.
4/4 horse vs 3/3 Enkidu: 1-4, Enkidu wins.
4/4 horse vs 3/3 Enkidu: 2-2, horse wins.
4/4 horse vs 3/3 MDI: 3-3, horse wins.
4/4 horse vs 3/3 MDI: 3-0, horse wins. [14-2]

The Sumerians have the Great Wall. That is a big drawback indeed :( It appears that they won't be running away with the game that easily though. We also have the Persians. The Dutch are doing 2CC, to compete with us. They will probably be dead soon.

I would have liked us thinking about attacking Sumeria soon, but tbh now they have walls I guess we have to wait for Sipahi. Unless we can can get ourselves iron. We have a lot of money: 2463 gold.

I also think that we can forget 20K... We are not able to keep up with Persia and Sumeria in the wonder-race it seems. Especially when we also want to weaken them militarily. That said: our city has twice the culture of nr 2.

250 BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG13-250BC.zip)

I played 15 turns while at war, but they were not very difficult. Those 10 turns are more meant for Industrial wars.

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie (just played)
Microbe (up)
ThERat (on deck)
Gyathaar
Greebley
LKendter

Despite our help Sumeria is still hurting the Hittites. :eek:
What would have happenned if we totally ignored them?

A daring move may be needed. A MA with Persia vs Sumeria. Persia almost finished the campaign vs the Dutch, so their troops need other diversions.

Most important thought behind it is that the Persians and Sumerians will not be able to trade this way and also hopely will get into some sort of stalemate, resulting in a slower growth of both tribes. The Persians have knights, able to beat the Sumerians spears behind walls (no, they have Immortals and lack horses!!).

I think that we can handle the Sumerian invasion... As long as we pay gpt it should be ok. Gpt, because Persia will surely break the deal at one point.

EDIT: looking at the map more closely I see that the Persians don't have horses, but Sumeria has a town just south of them with a source. This might complicate things :(

we should try and raze those 3 Sumer towns (Adana as well once it's Sumer), connect iron and upgrade, if that's possible.

btw, if we now mine the cows, we can get to 30spt while starving a little. but we can do that and maximise output

Microbe, do you know you are up? Not that you are too late with your 'got it', but I was used to you taking the game the moment that it was available...

preturn: I pay 38gpt and MA with Persia.

230BC: I switch to market due in 4 turns. I'll let AI fight a bit before we take offense.

210BC: Kill 2 MDIs and 2 archers.

190BC: Kill a few more units and lose a horse.

170BC: Kill 2 more.

IBT market -> horse.

150BC: Kill 4 more MDIs. The killing zone works perfect.

IBT Netherlands and Sumeria make peace.

130BC: sign RoP with Hitties.

110BC: elite horse kill redlined archer..

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG13-firstLeader.jpg

I use it to rush cathedral.

90BC: Persia has got Theology. :(

IBT Persia kills 2 EW. It builds Knights Templar. :(

70BC: there are 2 reg EWs in Tyrana but we lose 3 horses in killing it including two elites. We gain 3 slaves.

IBT Dutch is destroyed.

50BC: we have 20% WW.

10AD: Inca and Persia MA vs Sumeria.

30AD: Persia has iron for sale for 11gpt. But Harran might fall soon.

IBT Sumeria razes Hittie town to our east. We get Chivalry.

50AD: note, we can buy iron now and start building knights, or we could wait for a couple of turns for Harran to be razed, and create iron colony.

Persia is going to be a big problem. It researches too fast. We need to turn the tide at some point. We have 5 turn MA left.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG13-50AD.jpg

Microbe, do you know you are up? Not that you are too late with your 'got it', but I was used to you taking the game the moment that it was available...

I can tell you were away for too long. :) Things are a bit different now.

ok, got it, will play late tonight or tomorrow

one stupid question though 50BC: we have 20% WW.how can you actually tell how many %. the amount you need to increse lux?

save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG13-300AD.SAV)

Pre-turn
see that the cows are still not mined, so no 30spt possible. will change that, we do not need growth now since we are at 12pop

IT Harran is Persian, this is not good. but we can connect iron

1.70AD
send workers to road forrest to connect iron

IT Persians send a lot of units inot Harran. and in the end the town flips, that will hurt, at least 5 immortals and 2 AC's gone. what a twist :goodjob:

2. 90AD
time to move in and raze that town, move in many units on hill, see 5 Sumer MDI behind it

IT MDI fight and lose outside town, then Harran gets attacks by Persian units we can't see, Sumer lose 2 units but hold the town :)
that's extremely lucky.

3. 110AD
attack, lose horse immediately, then beat 3 units and raze it, take 2 slaves, next turn we will have iron, change build to court for shields
adjust production so we get 70shields after 3 turns for a knight

IT Hittities move in the MDI and thus get the counters from Sumer not us, nice of them

4. 130AD
iron is online now, since it's within our borders. upgrade 2 spears and 3 horses

5. 150AD
upgrade another 3 horses, we have 7 knights now

IT our deal with Persia is up, do not renew. Persia must be still having GA since they are so strong now. That's why Sumer were so strong initially as well
our GA will come once we have sipahi.
I don't think we can match Persia at the moment knights against their GA immortals and AC, we better wait
Persia found Tyre and that will snatch the iron sooner or later :mad:

6. 170AD
chopped the forrest hoping for BG but it is just G. since we will lose iron again, mine cows
make peace with Sumer and get 72g and 35gpt, they must be desperate

IT wine now online
Inca learn theology, we will get that soon

7. 190AD
nth much

IT Sumer and Hittities sign peace
as expected we learn Theology

8. 210AD
Persia of course knows education, GL might soon be obsolete. guess Hittities will face our army once their border exands to take away horses

9. 230AD
nth much

10. 250AD
nothing

IT Kisurra founded to snatch our wine away

11. 260AD
tech pace is too slow and I fear Persia runs away, steal invention immediately and since they have gunpowder, steal that as well :D
they have chemistry also, we have 1400g left and make 100gpt. they have salt to trade, but we have no MT yet
feel twice is enough luck for one round, better don't try 3 times

12. 270AD
we better get to MT as soon as possible, go for another steal and we get chemistry, finally Persia is not up any more :D
will now wait until they get metal or do we want to self research? we could get it in 19 turns, thats not worth the effort

IT Inca demand silks, but won't cave, they bugger off. I don't feel good about trading with Inca since the route goes through Hittite land and
we might have to fight them

13. 280AD nth much

IT Kissura gets razed and we get our wines back

15. 300AD nth much
kept on building knights since they upgrade to sipahi. Persia is up education and most likely more techs up that path, but we better save the money for metal and MT
we have now 10 knights, 1175g and make around 100gpt

our land
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ag13300.jpg

kept on building knights since they upgrade to Sipahi. Persia is up education and most likely more techs up that path, but we better save the money for metal and MT
Copernicus is NOT being built. They may not be further up that path. I don't know if it is the war, or lack of tech why they aren't building it.


We need to make a decision soon on Copernicus. Without it space race and 20K are not possible. We will be locked into conquest as the only viable option.

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
Microbe
ThERat (just played)
Gyathaar (up)
Greebley (on deck)
LKendter

Stunning steal luck :eek: I suggest to go for knights and MT and then attack Persia with our Sipahi.

I know that we like to have Copernicus, but I still lean towards going for MT asap. It's either one or the other. I think that we should get to our Super UU and GA asap to have the longest possible benefit from Sipahi. And OK, we might lose the iron, but for Sipahi we need horses and saltpeter.

Got it!
According to CivAssist we will end up with 17748 culture in 2050AD if we build no more culture buildings, so getting 20k victore is still possible (only problem would be preventing the AIs from getting victory before us if we are unable to win by conquest)

I had a look at the save a bit better. Our gpt is magnificent. This may allow us to go the Copernicus path when we are able to get Astronomy. But that means that we should switch to a wonder prebuild sooner rather than later. Next player's call I'd say.

I just remember from the previous OCC game (emperor) that we lost a lot of speed and money by getting Shakespeare. Later in the game this got us in a nasty position. Only the fact that we got ToE made our situation hopeful again. Astronomy however is a required tech to get to the next age. So that's another story.

I see culture by far as a less desirable win. I do believe that conquest or space are still valid options. We appear to be in control, more so than the emperor OCCC.

This may allow us to go the Copernicus path when we are able to get Astronomy.
My worry is by the time the Industrial Age arrives we simply can't keep up on science. One city is lousy for revenue and research. I want this to give us a chance to not fall to far behind in tech.

It's a very difficult decision to make.

If we go for Copernicus, we need to research Education/Astronomy ourselves. There is currently no wonder to prebuild with I think. We may make it, but it's hard to tell.

Otherwise, we'll not be able to keep up in tech by self-researching, but we could steal or buy. It is doable as we didn't get Copernicus in the emperor game either. With Sipahi we can rule the world for a long time, so tech isn't a big issue to me.

The problem is Persia is clearly running away in tech, and we need to stop it.

I am currently a bit inclined to beelining to sipahi. Do we have saltpeter?

I don't think that we should research Education. We get it from TGL. We can buy saltpeter from...Persia!

I had a look at the save a bit better. Our gpt is magnificent. This may allow us to go the Copernicus path when we are able to get Astronomy. But that means that we should switch to a wonder prebuild sooner rather than later. Next player's call I'd say.

I read this just as Astronomy was available, so I decided to go for Copernicus :p

300AD, turn 0:
Persia will give us saltpeter and 57 gold for silks, but we have no need for saltpeter atm.

IBT:
Hittites start Sixtine, and then Leo's

310AD, turn 1:
nothing

IBT:
Persia and hittites ally vs summeria
Persia offers us RoP for alliance vs summeris.. no deal :)

knight -> knight

320AD, turn 2:
nothing

IBT:
As normal watch a lot of persian and Summerians fight it out by our borders

330AD, turn 3:
nothing

IBT:
zzzz

340AD, turn 4:
notice our income has gone up despite builing units, and see he have gotten more tourism income

both inca and persia has education now, so GLib will expire next turn

IBT:
we learn education

knight -> university

350AD, turn 5:
Persia has astronomy

disband a regular warrior in istanbul and shortrush the university with a courthouse

IBT:
University -> sixtine (as prebuild for copernicus)

360AD, turn 6:
We will now reach 20k in 2042AD, so that option is still open.


370AD, turn 7:
nothing

380AD, turn 8:
Persia has banking now aswell..

IBT:
summeria want RoP and alliance vs hittites, say no

390AD, turn 9:
nothing

400AD, turn 10:
nothing

410AD, turn 11:
I see that peace deal with summeria will run out, so I turn off always reneg deals.

IBT:
Summeria renegs the peace deal despite the fact that I turned that off ?

420AD, turn 12:
the extra gold per turn from the peace deal is gone, so down to 60gpt now (since working high shield tiles for the prebuild)

IBT:
summeria and inca sign peace

430AD, turn 13:
persia and inca has printing press..

sell chemistry to incas for PP and 25gpt (one tech closer to shakespares if the AIs should research that)

Steal costs from persia seems to go up around 40 gold per turn, so decide to stop waiting for them to sell astronomy, and attempt a safe steal (could finally buy it now, but it would cost everything we had)

Safe steal is successful, take astronomy.

Copernicus due in 8 turns.

440AD, turn 14:
nothing

450AD, turn 15:

Copernicus is due in 6 turns. Noone else is building it, thou it could fall to a cascade since Leo's and Sixtine is still not finished.

The save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG13_450AD.SAV)

Nice going Gyathaar. But as I see it we can get ourselves a lux and get luxury to 0%. Cops is a very nice extra if we'd get it. We now only need banks besides the obvious huge stack of Sipahi.

EDIT: I'd consider getting Cops a small miracle. It normally gets eaten in a cascade.

EDIT2: Our research speed would be very decent at 100%. We'd get Metallurgy in 12. Not that I like full research. I'd rather go the safe road. We need the money.

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
Microbe
ThERat
Gyathaar (just played)
Greebley (up)
LKendter (on deck)

lots of things to comment:

after getting copernicus, we should focus on MT again. I'd say self research yes, if we can profit from it via trading. The reason I went for bold (and of course) lucky steals was simply due to the fact, there wasn't even a tech trading possible any longer and we couldn't afford to just sit and watch Persia run away. We need to raze some of their key cities.

sell chemistry to incas for PP and 25gpt this is exactly what I hoped for, tech brokering. and the reason I went for the steals

unfortunately salt is very far off to grab as a colony. I spotted some in Hittite and Inca land, but very far away. Trading with Persia is the only viable option. So, we need to get it, upgrade and then attack them 20 turns later

By the way, during my turns we were extremely lucky, that Harran was razed. When Persia took that town and subsequently send in a lot of units, I was so angry. you should have seen my face, when that town suddenly flipped :dance:
it took my a while to realize what happened, because the the turn sequence is Hittite, Sumer, Persia. I even reloaded later on just to see that again and laugh :D

I see no reason of full research after getting MT. Just follow AI research. The point is to slow AI (especially Persia) down, not by profitting from brokerage.

I see no reason of full research after getting MT. Just follow AI research. The point is to slow AI (especially Persia) down, not by profitting from brokerage.

I even see no point of full research to get MT. Same reason. I like the way things are going now.

I saw no reason for self research at all as well. I meant, only if we could get a tech ourselves for a follow up 2fer or so, then it would make sense. stealing and mongering our way up is the way to go for us with 0CC, copernicus doesn't change much.
are we still seeking Shakespeare or do we focus solely on MT and sipahi?

stealing and mongering our way up is the way to go for us with 0CC, copernicus doesn't change much.

Self-research is better if we get those scientific wonders.


are we still seeking Shakespeare or do we focus solely on MT and sipahi?

Persia is running away so we cannot waste time on the optional techs. We can build it when AI research it for us.

microbe: couldn't have said it better myself. Shakes only if we stumble upon it. Newton might be a more logical choice. But Sipahi are our first priority.

Greebley, do you know that you are up?

Ok, I got it. A bit of a feast mode for me.

Preturn: No Changes. Persia has Banking.

Early: Waiting for Copernicus

Mid: We get Copernicus and start a Colosseum (we may be able to go to 0 lux and the culture is nice).
Sistine and Leo's are completed. The Cascade is broken.

Late: Get Colosseum and we can lower Lux to 0%
There is a 2-fer avail if a steal works (steal Physics and trade for Banking).


560 AD:Safe steal fails and we are at war with Persia.

IBT: We have a Pike and some knights on our Iron. Persia loses 4 immortals, but kills a pike and a knight.

570 AD: We attack and kill 4 Immortals.
Buy Banking for 35 gpt and 460 gold (want Banking now to get addl money)

IBT: Not attacked on the mountains.

580 AD: Kill 3 Immortals

590 AD Kill 3 Immortals

600 AD: Don't attack this round.

Notes:
We are building a Bank that will be done in 2 turns.

Did some leader fishing. Got an Elite knight. Elite Horse generated no leader.

I kept on the 20K to keep it viable. The war was unfortunate, but unavoidable if we are going to steal our techs.

[Edit: I saw no reason to take out Tyre unless it gets a border expansion.

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie (on deck)
Microbe
ThERat
Gyathaar
Greebley
LKendter (currently playing)

Bad luck on the steal, but we can't win them all. I'm happy to see that Sumeria and Persia are still at war. And that we are able to face this big foe and even can aford building a bank instead of troops.

I hope that Persia doesn't get the opportunity to outresearch the rest of the tribes without us able to profit from it. And I hope that Sumeria and Persia don't make peace soon.

As war as I can see our biggest challenge is that we on the one hand have to get our techs and maybe even saltpeter from Persia but on the other hand don't like to see them grow even more. We had a similar situation in AG10, with France as our biggest friend but later on our biggest foe. But this is evil Persia, not nice France...

Bad luck on the steal, but we can't win them all the best part of it is, that the steals during my turns were 2 immediate and 1 careful and once we try safe, we get war :(
at least now we are far better prepared.

as for salt, I can see only one solution. build up knights, and get salt, upgrade them all and then beat Persia up

I kept on the 20K to keep it viable.
We will now win in 1982AD by 20K if we build no more culture buildings (and dont mobilize or sell off existing buildings)

We will now win in 1982AD by 20K if we build no more culture buildings (and dont mobilize or sell off existing buildings)

So we now have this as a back-up for a back-up. This has been done before and is nothing extremely special. Let's try to achieve that now :)

600 AD
We can't afford war with Sumeria also. With Copernicus money into research is more efficient. Once Persia talks and I can see their techs, I can make the steal vs. research decision. For the moment I stay on cash.


610 AD
(IT) I put Istanbul on -1 food to get to 30 shields a turn. I would prefer to man the fort line with pikes and free up the knights for potential offensives.


620 AD
(IT) The Inca and Persia sign peace.


630 AD
If this was a solo game I would have went with Metallurgy from 600 AD. I would have gone with Sipahi as long as possible before rifles. However, everyone in the game keeps talking about slowing the pace.

Persia is up to Physics, but doesn't have Metallurgy. I up the science rate to max to follow Persia with Physics. I would like a chance at Newton's. That would insure space race as a valid backup.


650 AD
(IT) The Inca stop paying us for Silks.


700 AD
(IT) The Inca demand silk. The Hittite choke city will keep their troops away for a long time. I tell them bite me, but no war starts.


740 AD
Tyre is RAZED for $27
The Inca start Smith's.


750 AD
My parting gift for the team:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-583.jpg


==========================

Summary:
Total killed units: 13 immortals, 3 AC, 3 Muskets, and 1 crusader.
Total losses: 2 knights (vs. 1 hp musket and 1 hp immortal), 1 elite horseman, 1 pikeman and 1 warrior.
Units captured: 1 Sumerian catapult that was upgraded.

The Sumerian and Persia war has been a stalemate despite our help. Persia getting BOTH unit wonders is just so powerful.

I think we either need to go peaceful for a while and get Newton and Sipahi, or initiate a dog-pile against Persia now. By going peaceful Zeus will expire and weaken the Persian position.


ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)
ThERat
Gyathaar
Greebley
LKendter

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG13-750AD.zip

Got it. Great going. I see that Persia is close to the Industrial age and that we can get a decent sum from them for peace.

I won't be able to play for Wednesday.

EDIT: At first glance I'd say that we'd better either had gone min science or for Military Tradition. Persia is up ToG and we are losing money while still 17 turns from it.

I'll be playing this tomorrow morning at the earliest. Tomorrow evening at the latest.

[quote]If this was a solo game I would have went with Metallurgy from 600 AD. I would have gone with Sipahi as long as possible before rifles. However, everyone in the game keeps talking about slowing the pace.[/bquote]

Ya, me too. The slower pace does make the 20k easier though. Probably makes conquests harder is the flip side.

I wasn't talking about slowing the pace (EDIT: I did, but didn't mean it this extreme)... I like Sipahi. But we are losing 13 gpt while researching a known tech and we are still 17 turns from it.

EDIT: So we are losing money needed for upgrades and buying the two techs towards Sipahi.

IHT: We have 20% war weariness. 20% of the unhapiness of our people is explained this way.

I don't understand why we are researching ToG at 40% (losing money) when Persia already has it. I stop research. I want to see us going for MT instead.

IT: Treb->knight. We lose the furs.

Turn 1 (760 AD) No need to buy the furs back. Persia has two saltpeter extra for trade, if we'd make peace. Selling world map gives me 3 gold. I do this every turn and won't mention it in the turnlog.

I redline a knight and immortal on a mountain. And a knight on grassland. My tactic is to redline the Persian troops and only attack the units when I can get to a safe position again. Sumeria can then help us with the other wounded troops.

4/4 knight vs 1/4 knight: 1-3, our knight wins. [1-0]

IT: A lot of fighting between Sumeria and Persia.

Turn 2 (770 AD) An immortal is redlined.

4/4 knight vs 1/4 knight: 1-1, our knight wins [2-0]

IT: 5/5 Crusader vs 4/4 pike on mountain: 3-5, our pike wins
4/4 knights vs 4/4 pike on mountain: 3-4, our pike wins and promotes
4/4 knight vs 4/4 knight on mountain: 4-3, Persian knight wins
4/4 knight vs 4/4 knight on mountain: 2-4, our knight wins [5-1]

Persia starts Shakes. They again didn't research Metallurgy.

Turn 3 (780 AD) I redline a vet knight and kill a redlined immortal with 4/4 knight. Trebs pillage the roads inside Persian borders. [6-1]

IT: Persian troops can't reach us this IT. Knight->knight. Hittites start Smith.

Turn 4 (790 AD) Crusader redlined by trebs. Elite knight kills the crusader, losing 3HP. [6-1]

IT: 5/5 AC vs 4/4 pike: 2-5, pike wins
4/4 knight vs 4/4 knight: 2-4, our knight wins [8-1] Sumeria starts Smith.

Turn 5 (800 AD) 2 immortals are redlined by our trebs.
4/4 knight vs 1/4 immortal: 1-0, knight wins.
4/4 knight vs 1/4 immortal: 1-1, knight wins and promotes. [10-1]

IT: 4/4 knight vs 4/4 pike: 2-4, pike wins. Sumerian troops start to use the safe road to Persia. [11-1]

Turn 6 (810 AD) Nothing much...

IT: knight->knight.

Turn 7 (820 AD) Trebs redline a musket and knight.

5/5 knight vs 1/4 musket: 1-1, knight wins and captures settler :)
5/5 knights vs 3/4 immortal: 3-3, knight wins.
4/4 knight vs 1/4 knight: 1-0, knight wins. [14-1]

IT: 4/4 knight vs 4/4 pike: 4-2, Persian knight wins
4/4 knight vs 4/4 pike: 4-3, Persian knight wins :(

Sumeria starts Shakes. Adana expands borders, we lose our horses. [14-3]

Turn 8 (830 AD) I redline 2 knights, a crusader and a musket.
5/5 knight vs 1/4 knight: 1-1, our knight wins.
5/5 knight vs 1/4 knight: 1-0, our knight wins.
4/4 knight vs 1/4 knight: 1-0, our knight wins.
4/4 knight vs 1/5 cruader: 1-0, knight wins.
4/4 knight vs 1/4 musket: 1-1, knight wins. [19-3]

Turn 9 (840 AD) Persia now has Metallurgy!

I redline a musket and immortal.
5/5 knight vs 1/4 musket: 1-0, knight wins.
4/4 knight vs 1/4 immortal: 1-1, knight wins. [21-3]

I make peace with Persia for 1040 gold (they pay :) ). Lux tax to 0%, we make 117 gpt. We can get a MPP with Persia, so their free tech is Nationalism :( I try a careful steal for 1327 gold. Steal succeeds and we get Metallurgy!

We still have 792 gold. I set science to 100%. We will have MT in 7 this way, losing 67 gpt. I think that Persia will go for Communism/Fascism instead of MT. That wouldn't be bad!

IT: The Inca declare on Sumeria and start Shakes. Knight->treb.

Turn 10 (850 AD) We MUST have the saltpeter. We want to have knights, cannons and Sipahi (those are in 6 turns). Persia is the only one with an extra resource. So I sell silks and 3 gpt for saltpeter. We give Sumeria our last silks and 15 gold for Horses and Spices.

We are now building a cannon, ready in 2. I mm-ed for 20 spt and income. We are doing -72 gpt, have 711 gold and MT is in 6. I didn't buy world map. I think that we need the money for upgrades.

IT: Sumeria advances more and more into Persian lands.

Turn 11 (860 AD) Nothing much.

IT: cannon->knight.

Turn 12, 13 (870, 880 AD) :sleep:

Turn 14 (890 AD) Science to 80%, we lose 36 gpt and have 419 gold.

IT: knight->knight.

Turn 15 (900 AD) We are 1 turn from MT. Science to 70%, MT in 1. No other tribe has it.

We don't want to be at peace with Persia for long. And we certainly don't want a long-lasting peace deal between Sumeria and Persia. They are still at war, but I think that we should dogpile Persia again within 5-10 turns. We need enough Sipahi of couse. And for that we need the Persian saltpeter. That saltpeter is far north in the Persian core (2 sources). Hittites have Magnetism. We might be able to trade with them next turn. Persia already reached the IA, Inca are level and Sumeria is backward, missing Metallurgy.

I'd stop research after MT. Although we will get the free tech in the IA, which will allow us to trade something. Persia is the runaway civ, but Sumeria leads in score and culture.

900 AD save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG13-900AD.zip)

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie (just played)
Microbe (up)
ThERat (on deck)
Gyathaar
Greebley
LKendter

what's our short term strategy? get salt from Persia, so we got 20 more turns of peace? we have 14 left anyway.
but we got no horses, should we fight Hittites for a while to get rid of Adana?

We already have horses from Sumeria. And salt from Persia, but if we get them to declare (by trying to kick them out of our lands or another way) we will be at war a lot sooner than in 14 turns.

I guess that it can't harm a lot us to stay at peace for 15 turns, but this depends on the developments. It would be nice to keep Persia from Cavalry, but I think that won't work and certainly not if we wait too long. I think that we need at least 15 Sipahi, which we can have very soon indeed. We also need muskets.

EDIT: I like us too fight Persia. They are the big threat and we shouldn't allow them to grow. I wouldn't have made peace, but had to for Metallurgy and Saltpeter. If we can cripple them and raze about 3 core cities, then it's time to look at Hittites, Sumeria and Inca.

We already have horses from Sumeria. And salt from Persia, but if we get them to declare (by trying to kick them out of our lands or another way) we will be at war a lot sooner than in 14 turns.
now that you mention it, I can see it. did you edit your post or am I really getting horrible senile :crazyeye:

agree with your other plans

I mentioned it, but I will now put the Sumerian deal in Italic as well, so it sticks out.

OK I played one turn and here is the situation.

Hitties MA with Persia vs Sumeria.

1. Military+72gpt could give us ToG from Persia, and could get us into Industrial Ages, but then we'd be locked into longer peace (20 turns). We could build more sipahi in the mean time.

2. We could sell MT to other AI to get Magnetism, and/or sell to Persia for its 1438g+some gpt, and attempt a steal at some point (in 10 turns) to get ToG. In the mean time we build Sipahi. We could build only 2 in 10 turns though.

3. Get Persia's 1438g by gpt, upgrade our 4 vet knights and attempt a steal immediately for ToG. If it succeeds, it's definitely the best plan. If not, we are at war and only have 4 sipahi.

I am not sure which way to go. I like to have more sipahis (like 10+) before we fight Persia.

Also, how is the idea that a short war with Hitties? We could raze the choke and get our horses back, and get us a GA. Maybe we can even build Newton or Shakespear by it (or not?).

I'll play the rest tomorrow and give you a chance for discussion.

OK. Opportunity knocks!

I'm very afraid of the Persian cavalry/rifle combo that WILL come. But naturaly we can't avoid it. They will have them in 5 turns or earlier anyway.

We really want rifles too.

It might indeed be best to deal with Persia to get us in the IA. This may make it possible to sell a free tech to Persia, giving us a lot of money and gpt. Although the gpt shouldn't blind us. If feel that we will be at war again before the 20 turns are up.

EDIT: We might even be able to go for ToE.

microbe might be right that a Hittite short war is a good idea. They COULD however ask the Persians/Sumerians to join. Can we afford that?

My tactic is to redline the Persian troops and only attack the units when I can get to a safe position again.
That sounds familiar. That was the same tactic I was using with the one exception of some yellowed units to raze the city.


I'd stop research after MT.
Does this mean you are hoping for conquest with Sipahi? Even they have trouble with rifles...

Lee, no research at all anymore? No I don't mean that this drastically! Good thing that you ask me this :) I meant that we shouldn't needlessly spend money while we can buy our way into the IA. We'd need the money for ugrades. And once we have enough troops to start doing damage we could go researching again.

But as soon as we have a chance to get ToE we should go for it I'd say. The AI will research the government techs first, so we'd have a chance to go to Scientific Method.

Things have changed a bit now. We CAN get into the IA which changes everything (except for the need for more Sipahi).

I don't mind 20 turns of peace with Persia. We can afford to attack other civs in this game.

I would like to enter the IA and see where the coal is. If there is one nearby that may determine who I would like to attack.

I don't understand why we are researching ToG at 40% (losing money) when Persia already has it. I stop research.
I can sum that up in 1 word - Newton's. Persia still isn't building it after your turns. Regardless of how we want to win I feel Newton's is needed to keep up with research in the IA. In addition, it greatly increases the odds for the backup plans of Space and 20K.

Given that we lost our horses, I think attacking hittites and removing that town makes sense to me. Lets grab the choke again. (i.e. put a unit there so it isn't resettled)

I can sum that up in 1 word - Newton's. Persia still isn't building it after your turns. Regardless of how we want to win I feel Newton's is needed to keep up with research in the IA. In addition, it greatly increases the odds for the backup plans of Space and 20K.

I understand the reason and I really love to have Newton. But I bet that we will lose a Newton race in a cascade. The AI is building Smith, Shakes and Bach. Also: I felt that we needed troops and money in a war vs the super-power and that we didn't have room for 14 turns of research towards ToG losing money. If we buy ToG now we are only 3 turns later than with a self-research.

I agree with Greebley on the choke.

Summary: some difficult decisions to make, but in the end we control the choke, get a GA, Newton due next turn, have Nationalism and 1294g, and are still making +206gpt!

preturn: Hitties join the party and MA against Sumeria.

910AD: We get Military Tradition.

Now what to do? We can build a sipahi every 4 turns, but we could also build Newton's in 16 turns if we have the tech. I think it's worth having Newton's and then focus on military for the whole Industrial Ages. And what if we have an GA?

I sell MT to Persia for 36gpt+1437g (full price).

I upgrade 8 knights and 3 pikes by 990g.

We could sell MT+450g to get Magnetism from Hitties, but then it'd have cavs, so no way. I set research to ToG in 6 turns with -40gpt (MM very important. By one less commerce it'd be 7 turns).

MT to Sumeria for Navigation+28g+27gpt. I get Navigation as we could use Magallan's as prebuild for Newton's. With GA this is going to be faster.

920AD: Upgrade two more pikes. Declare on Hitties and move trebs next to Adana. We have 3 muskets defending, and 3 elite knights, but the elite knights show on top. :hmm:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AG13-GA.jpg

IBT 6 Hittie knights come out and some enter our territory, but none attack our fortified elite knight and our treb stack!

930AD: I sign RoP with Sumeria so it could move faster.