SGOTM6 - Celts. Team Bede.

Welcome to your team thread for SGOTM06. I hope you enjoy the game.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM6-START.jpg

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Celts
World size - 100 wide by 130 high.
Difficulty Emperor (approximately)
Landform Contiguous Pangea

Here are a number of links you might find useful.

The Constitution (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1733966&postcount=61)
GOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=71788)
Upload a Save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm.php)
Download a save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php)
SGOTM06 Maintenance Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=110909)

This Months' sponsored variant is Cultural Celtic Communists the rules for which are as follows.

1. The only allowed governments are despotism and communism.
2. You must win by 100K victory condition.

Your save has been uploaded to the server and will become available to you on the 7th February.

Anyone know the difference between Pangea and Contiguous Pangea? Also it says our save has been uploaded, does that mean each team has a different save? Perhaps with some coded signature?

Contiguous was used on purpose. It does mean something. If you take it to mean "joined up" then it may give you a clue. I am not going to say any more than that.

Yes indeed. Everyone gets there own save which is coded. You can only upload saves with your own signature. This prevents 3rd parties interfering with the saves, and also allows our software to identify a game correctly when extracting the stats.

"Contiguous" does indeed mean "joined up". Which, I imagine, means there won't be any annoying Civs sitting on islands.

This is fine by me, means we can :hammer: everyone out of sight, hit the domination limit, and crank up the ICS for the rest of the game.

Neil :cool:

Checking in.

Hi guys... has anyone thought about a roster or opening moves yet?
I'm in the middle of looking at the screenie to decide on options.. be warned that I usually come up with strange ideas from time to time, feel free to point them out!

Mab.

Morning, everbody.

Thoughts on the opener:

Settle on the spot. My medium term plan does not involve a settler farm in the capitol anyway, I'd prefer to use a "spawn" rather than "farm" approach anyway, skimming settlers out of everywhere. Set research towards the Temple of Artemis with a pre-build in th capitol. Build five towns, a bunch of archers, then take on the world. :ninja:

I would like to delay the UU-induced GA until the Middle Ages as that is when tech costs increase and we won't have the commerce gains from Republic to pay for them.

The research path and pace: go for Polytheism at maximum sustainable, then the war mongering knowldege. After that shut research off and use our bows and arrows to best effect. Alternatively we could go for the warfare knowledge and use pop rushes to build our temples.

Roster thoughts:
Mab
Minute Man
Pied Piper
Bede
Tubby Rower
eldar

The obvious, initial, thought is the ToA. However, ToA temples don't double. As an Ag/REL civ, any freshwater cities we build, will get a Temple in 10 turns, maximum. Most non-freshwater-cities will get the Temple in 10 as well. Depending upon how closely we pack them early on, we can get a significant core of 4-culture-per-turn Temples.

Of course if the long-term plan doesn't involve learning Education.

2nd city up by the Wheat will be productive, and should be able to churn out Settlers quite nicely.

Minute Man reporting for duty. :salute: Hello, all.

I should warn everybody up front that I've never even tried a game at Emperor before, or played a fast 100K game at any level. So I may not have any idea what I'm talking about. :)

I would like to delay the UU-induced GA until the Middle Ages as that is when tech costs increase and we won't have the commerce gains from Republic to pay for them.

The problem with this is we miss the window of opportunity when GS are most effective. Since we have a good UU, I'd rather try to get the maximum benefit from it, even if that means our GA is less useful.

On ToA: I don't know if we want it, since temples are cheap and I think 1000-year doubling is going to matter more than in a typical 100K game. Not that it would hurt anything, but I don't think it's worth the effort.

One long-term question: are we going to try to reach the IA and go commie, or just stick with despotism all game? Personally I think we're going to need communism, or we're going to have too many corrupt cities that won't be able to build anything but temples.

On opening moves: I think I'd rather move the settler toward either the wheat or game - our capital can't get either if we settle on the spot. We will ge the cow, but I don't know how soon we can improve that square.

Is that the coast or a fresh water lake?

Contiguous Pangea may mean a spiral type layout to delay contact with other civs, perhaps they are all lined up like dominoes so it is hard to get by each one and make contact. Therefore I am thinking that the water is perhaps only a lake and not connected to the greater oceans and there may be plenty of chokepoints that need a city for ship passage.

The SGOTM mod is based on the GOTM23 setup.

GOTM23 had these settings:

# World size: 5000 tiles (standard)
# Landmass: Pangaea 58% H2O
# Geology: 3 billion years old
# Environment: Warm and Arid
# Barbarians: Raging
# Rivals: 9 Preset
# Upgrade Swordsmen/Longbows: ON
# Differential Naval Movement is Engaged

Does this mean we have the same? Barbarian setting interests me most, but what is Differential Naval Movement?

I notice the map is taller than it is wide, is that normal? For 130x100, I count 12,950 tiles, what size is that normally? Also I wonder if the left and right edges are connected.

Please don't assume anything from the map when comparing to GOTM23. The Mod is very similar but the map is completely different. :)

I like Bede's overall strategic plan. The goal here is to be first to get 100K CULTURE, not to whomp the most heads. (I shall be emphasizing this point many times) At emperor level it should not be difficult to clear out the core area (8 to 10 tiles in every direction from the capital) which we must settle intensively and utilize every tile. City placement should ensure the ability to add a second generation of cities once the initial cities have built all culture buildings. Attacking other civs should only be done for state security and to clear out more living room.

Since we will play much of the game in despotism, luxury will come in handy but a two turn worker factory is essential. Workers can be joined to nonproductive cities outside the low corruption core area to rush culture buildings at 20 shields per worker. This is an efficient means of shield transference out of the core area.

I do wonder about the research goal after polytheism. I prefer Literature to be able to build libraries ASAP, the AI is very slow to get that tech.

Producing Workers with the specific goal of joining them to corrupt cities for pop rushing isn't allowed, AFAIR.

OK mad-bax, you just snowed me, explain to the ignorant savage the difference.

Thanks eldar, will rule that out then, as you can tell I have not done a 100K game here.

Oh, I have a question about the modded resource files...
I've downloaded and unzipped in to conquests\scenarios, is that all that is required? (i.e. no overwriting of the main resources.pcx, etc.)

Neil. :cool:

Pied Piper: The C3C version is exactly the same as the out of the box version of conquests except for two things.

1. I have replaced the C3C resources with GOTM resources.
2. You will get workers from huts and not settlers.

The reference to GOTM 23 is for PTW/vanilla players as all the PTW civs were added to the vanilla version at this point and some other changes were made to make the competition between vanill and PTW fairer. The mod process was most nearly finalised in GOTM 23. Later GOTM had mods that cannot be used as a general rule, with modifications to the tech tree for the Korean game and others.

The map itself is brand new, and doesn't look like the GOTM23 Map. It is a 100wide by 130High pangea, handbuilt tile by tile. Resources added tile by tile. Start positions and play order set for every civ etc.

The reference to gotm23 is purely to let former gotm players know that they do not need to downloas anything if they have played up to gotm 23.

It's best not to think about it too much. It's a new map, standard rules with sheep :)

Differential naval movement has not been impemented for C3C. I am still deciding which way to jump on this long term. Actually I should let the other C3C teams know this in the maintenance thread.

The recource files reside in the scenarios folder in a folder called SGOTM. You do NOT have to replace any of your standard installation. Just unzip the file into the scenarios folder and load the test save. If you see goats you're set.

Thanks, actually I did the update when I signed up. Not to sound prudish or anything but what are sheep used for? Is there anything describing these (new?) resources? Or is it just a different graphic for the same old thing?

The GOTM resources are designed to increase choice. They allow different kinds of tile improvements to be made. In this way you can persuade mountains to provide food with goats, and hills to provide 2 food, deserts have more variation too.

The first post of this thread has a link to the GOTM Reference thread. In there is a link to the GOTM specific resources. A guy called bamspeedy analysed the effects of each resource and listed what each resource would yield on each type of terrain with irrigation and mines, and also gave sound advice on how to best use them. You really do NEED to read this discussion, even if it is only the list of terrain values.

Hmm... it seems Oases have disappeared from the bonus resources.

...and tobacco... and sugar cane :)

Took the liberty of making a map for our initial cities. Any comments? The first moves should probably be to mine and build a temple, but we need to develop tiles in the direction of our expansion so settlers can move on roads. Which site shall we send our first built settler to?
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sgotm6tbprop1.jpg

I like Bede's overall strategic plan. The goal here is to be first to get 100K CULTURE, not to whomp the most heads. (I shall be emphasizing this point many times) At emperor level it should not be difficult to clear out the core area (8 to 10 tiles in every direction from the capital) which we must settle intensively and utilize every tile. City placement should ensure the ability to add a second generation of cities once the initial cities have built all culture buildings. Attacking other civs should only be done for state security and to clear out more living room.

Since we will play much of the game in despotism, luxury will come in handy but a two turn worker factory is essential. Workers can be joined to nonproductive cities outside the low corruption core area to rush culture buildings at 20 shields per worker. This is an efficient means of shield transference out of the core area.

I do wonder about the research goal after polytheism. I prefer Literature to be able to build libraries ASAP, the AI is very slow to get that tech.

I have to go with eldar on this one. The most efficient way to get to 100K under these government restrictions almost requires whomping every head.

As for culture buildings we won't need all of them or even close - temple/library/cathedral will do nicely, if we build enough of them. And that "enough" requires nearly constant warfare.

Secondly, the government restrictions do not allow cash rushed buildings so we need a constant stream of new cities with a growing population for the whip. Now that I have written that it occurs to me that the Pyramids and the Temple of Artie would be useful wonders to have, either by building or by capture. The ToA for the immediate temple, the Pyramids for the granary for faster population growth for more forced labor.

City placement for the initial phase should be CxxxC at maximum in the first and second rings, CxxC and Cxc after that, terrain and weather permitting.

On ToA: I don't know if we want it, since temples are cheap and I think 1000-year doubling is going to matter more than in a typical 100K game. Not that it would hurt anything, but I don't think it's worth the effort.


Since temples are so cheap lets take advantage of our trait and pass on TOA. Then we can research straight to literature and delay polytheism. Getting the culture doubling will be very important.

Agree with Bede - Pyramids will be very, very useful.
However...
Pyramids+ToA will trip our GA, if we build both.

I'd rather encourage a neighbour to build ToA, and capture it, and build the Pyramids ourselves.

Neil. :cool:

I'm looking forward to this challenge!!! Despotism throughout the Middle Ages :eek: . That's scary. Correct me if I'm wrong but captured wonders do NOT give culture?

As for inital moves, worker N to mine & road BG. settle in place (if you move the settler you'll lose the cow on the other side of the Amazon River. 2nd and 3rd cities should get the game and wheat.

Later in the game, I think that I'll need to be reminded about the domination limit. That would suck if we had the game in hand and lose it because we won it the wrong way.

@Pied Piper -> the upload folder that your picture is in is uploads9
Corrected picture link (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sgotm6tbprop1.jpg) I think that we want to spread the initial cities out a little more than is portrayed in the picture.

Contiguous Pangea - many continents seperated by 1 tile "rivers" connected by small land bridges?

Pyramids+ToA will trip our GA, if we build both.

If you capture and/or build both it would trip a GA.

A GA is triggered in one of two ways:
- Your Civ's UU killing an AI unit.
- Building a Wonder, which either completes the complementing set of traits for your Civ, or if you already own (through having built/captured) Wonders with matching traits.

So, if we build the Pyramids (Agr), and capture ToA (Rel), we won't get the GA until we build our next Wonder.

Now, as we're going to be stuck with a Despotic GA, I'd like it to be as late as we can risk. Which means early wars with Horses, leaving our Gallic Swords - highly effective units well into the Middle Ages - until we have a larger empire.

Neil. :cool:

The save is here for those who don't know that m-b puts it on the SGOTM scores page:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/Bede_SG006_BC4000_01.SAV

I looked at it this morning and the "Amazon River" is an arm of the ocean as the tiles only give 1f.

Also m-b has confirmed that barbs are set to "raging with intense regional barbarian activity". So there's the weather report I was looking for and draw your own conclusions.

@Mab (may I refer to you as Queen Mab, seeing we are going to need some magic?), care to start us off?

I think we should max research towards Literature and try trading for HB. We don't need Poly if:
we build the Pyramids (Agr), and capture ToA (Rel), we won't get the GA until we build our next Wonder.
For an early military we have archers and then horses, so we can postpone BW and IW research. It is my habit to build all offensive units in barracks, with cheap barracks most cities should have one, but to save money I leave several cities without, which can build the catapults, trebs, and artillery.


BTW, is it 20 turns for the first turn set of the game?

I agree with TR that our initial expansion should be Northward to exploit the river system and its commerce benefits.

If you look at the mini-map you will note that we start in south-easternmost corner and if you fog-gaze at the south you will note tundra.

In Conquests the Celts do not get cheap barracks.

So initial expansion should be north by northwest, exploiting the riverine fields for the food bonus (+1 in the city center).

For archers we will need to research or buy Warrior Code and for horsemen, HBR.

Every first ring city should have a barracks as its very first build so that we can produce veteran archers when the time comes.

When it comes to really early culture I would vote against. More than anything we need land, cities and population and for that we need military and settlers more than anything.

I just got badly burned in a Deity 100K game by building early culture instead of military for conquest and settlers for land grabbing.

In the Emperor game with the Celts that eldar and I just finished we started our culture push late (750AD) and finshed with 100K and Domination almost exactly 1000 years later. We started the push with 70+ towns having conquered our continent and ended with 111, mostly on our home continent. Culture growth was less than 300cpt at the beginning of the push but rose to 860 by the end game. Total culture at the start of the culture mongering was 9000. it took 153 turns to increase the city count by 40 and the total culture by over 90000.

The crux of all this analysis is that if we can have 100 towns by 750AD we should be able to wrap this one in fine style. And the only way to do that is going to be with a serious focus on military.

Hey guys
Apologies for the late showing and missing out on all the discussion. The facists that I work for have banned access to the CF forums due to bad language??? :confused: I guess the OT has influenced the whole site!

Anyway... I played a quick test game with the same settings last night and was able to expand nice and fast. That's rare for me btw :blush:

I don't mind going first but think that honour might be better off going to someone with more experience, I'm a little rusty to be honest and don't want the plans to be scuppered right from the off!

I agree with the plan to settle in place, where do you guys reckon the 2nd city should be? I'm leaning towards NE of the wheat but we'll need to see how productive that site is. No point having loads of food and no shields!

Since it has to be close to 10:00 PM in the UK I can appreciate your relunctance to start.

eldar is also the UK, Minute Man is in New Mexico and the Piper in Detroit, and TR in VA, so why not set the roster this way:

Bede - opens the ball
Minute Man - on deck
Mab
Tubby Rower
Pied Piper
eldar

That should get us started

I like to keep a fairly strict 24 to post a got it, 24 for discussion if necessary, then 24 to play and post. Skips automatically honored when requested. And unrequested skips can be picked up by the next in line by posting a got it.

Twenty turns for the starter, then 10 each after that.

Back with a report in a couple of hours.

That sounds good to me! I'll be back online at 6pm GMT all being well. Good luck!

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/Bede_SG006_BC3000_01.SAV)


Settle on the spot and set the worker to mining the grassland to the west. Set Research to Alphabet at minimum and train a warrior. Train five more for exploration duty and an escort for the settler as they are barbarians in them thar hills.


Warriors start boxing the compass and in 3150BC meet a Mongol conscript. Temujin possesses Warrior Code and 35g (he started with Pottery and Warrior Code) so he has been busy busting barbarian hovels and hasn't made any friends yet.

I pass on buying Warrior Code as it will only get cheaper.
In 3100 the Mongols know Bronze Working.

In 300 the first settler leaves Entremont to build a town on the spot just west (1SW of the silks).

Entremont is building a granary while it grows, could be switched to barracks.

Worker is back at home, mine and road the bonus grasslands just south then proceed to connnecting the next town.

Here is a list of our opponents:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SGOTM6Bede01.jpg

And now a dotmap:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SGOTM6Bede02.jpg

Moving dot 2 1NW will get two boinus grass on founding.

Met the Mongols to the west. From what I have seen we have the richest possible start in this corner.

Towns 1 and 2 should start barracks, 3 and 4 temples after workers.

Roster check:
Minute Man - up
Mab - rarin' to go
Tubby Rower
Pied Piper
eldar
Bede

OK, got it. Follow Bede's plan and try not too screw things up too badly. Looks good to me.

What's the plan on tech research? If the opportunity arises to trade for alpha and go down the writing/philo branch arises, should I do that? Or are we more interested in trading for military techs (WC, Wheel) right now?

Research is minimum at Alphabet which we should be able to use to acquire miltary techs at just about the time we will be able to use them, i.e barracks are built and ready to train archers.

Keep pushing the warrior/explorers and don't waste them on barbarians or goody huts. The contacts we make will be worth more than anything we can get from huts.

The philosophy gambit will get us Literature if it is successful so by all means pursue it.

We porbably won't be able to buy alphabet for a reasonable price, though if it comes up, buy it if we have somebody to trade it off to.

Hey, we're in the lead at 3000BC (with two teams still to submit their 3000BC saves)! My guess is that 6 warriors and a settler, makes for a (relatively!) good score :)

If the settler builds a city on the tile NW of site #1 it looks like we can pick up 25 gold and disperse the barbs in the mountains without attacking. Population growth won't be delayed, in fact it can be increased if the worker cuts down the forest and starts irrigating. Also there will then be room for another city on the river between sites #1 and #4.

For us new to SGotM, what is the actual page with the start file, and the one with the current scores?

If the settler builds a city on the tile NW of site #1 it looks like we can pick up 25 gold and disperse the barbs in the mountains without attacking.
but you'll lose the BG in the short run growth right now is more important correct?

The advantage of Site #1 is that defensive troops can go back an forth from Entremont, and fortify, in 1 turn, without crossing the river. There's also the possibility that a Barb from the camp might whack our warrior before settling - a major setback.

I have not seen that happen in an Emperor level game, especially on a hill tile. It would be a major setback if it happened, though the other warrior could reduce the probability to zero if it is a concern. Two forest chops equals quite a few turns of BG benefit, the BG can be incorporated in the next city on the river. Just a suggestion is all. I try to minimize barbarian threats when I can. Seemed like the way to go with the camp on the mountain. Wonder if he changed the massive uprising key?

[...]
For us new to SGotM, what is the actual page with the start file, and the one with the current scores?


You can find it here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php). Just click on the link in the fourth column to get to most recent save. :)

In post 1 of this thread there is a list of links. There is one to upload a file to the server. There is another one to download a file (save) from the server. This is the page you need. The date of the save for your team will be displayed and you can click the link to download it. at the bottom of the page you will find a graph to show you your progress versus the other teams.

Since the Celts are AGRI and get a food bonus in the city if settling on the river I would prefer keeping at least one forest unchopped, probably the silks, as the long term shields with only a road cost fewer worker turns than mining the hills.

Also I hate disturbing barbarian villages at any level above Monarch until I have the force to deal with them: three things can happen and two of them are bad. Since we are not alone on this map I would let the neighbors deal with them.

So I prefer spot #1.

Query: has everyone installed the AINoPatrol=0 fix? If you haven't please do so. There is a handy installer on the GOTM page somewhere. It makes the barbarian behavior much more interesting, shall we say?

Hey, we're in the lead at 3000BC (with two teams still to submit their 3000BC saves)! My guess is that 6 warriors and a settler, makes for a (relatively!) good score :)

Actually, I think that's Firaxis score, so warriors and settler don't matter, just territory and population. My interpretation is that everybody else either (a) moved from the starting spot or (b) got a settler out a little faster than we did.

On city site 1: I'm leaning toward the spot as marked, if only because moving it means the city will have way too many hills and mountains. BTW, I believe that's a goody hut, not a barb camp (though there is a barb camp a little further over), so I agree with Bede that taking it out isn't a high priority. If it's still there when we build a temple we'll get it on border expansion.

I'll get this played as soon as my coffee kicks in. Report should be up in an hour or two.

We are just competing against the [c3c] competitors, correct? It looks like only us and CDZ did something different. Everyone else with conquests had the exact same score except the 2 teams that hadn't played yet. So it looks like everyone but us and CDZ moved the settler and Bede probably emphasized food more than the 1st player of CDZ....

EDIT: Bede, I have the noaipatrol =0 fix.

I have noaipatrol=0

I imagine Bede worked with +4 food every turn (fairly sure I would've). Others may have worked a forest for a bit for slightly slower growth vs. more shields?

0 - 3000 BC - Everything looks good.

1 - 2950 - Our western warrior spots a Mongol settler. This is in addition to the three cities they already have. We're definitely not on Monarch anymore.

2 - 2900 - Alesia founded on spot #1. Decide to build a warrior before barracks as there is a barb camp 3 spaces away which is making me very nervous. We'll probably want him as an escort for our next settler anyway.

3 - 2850 - Western warrior spots yellow (Mongol) borders south of the mountain range he's been following. It's had an expansion, so probably their capital.

MM Entremont to work the cow so it grows a turn faster (if my calculations are correct we'll still get the granary at the same time).

4 - 2800 - Spot brown border NW of Mongols.

5 - 2750 - Entremont grows and needs 10% lux to prevent rioting. Need to work the forest for a couple of turns until our mine is finished.

6 - 2710 - Alesia warrior->barracks. Leave warrior in Alesia for now.

Contact with brown borders - it's Carthage. He's up BW, Masonry, and Alpha, down CB, and has 3 cities. Mongols don't have Alpha, so there's a trade opportunity here, but Hannibal won't give it to us even for everything we have.

8 - 2630 - Northern warrior spots pink borders to our NW.

10 - 2550 - Entremont granary->settler.

Pink borders is China. He's up BW, WC, and Masonry, down Pottery, and has five cities.

Here's the situation in 2550 BC:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SGOTM6_Bede_2550BC.jpg

Carthage isn't visible on the minimap, but he's just NW of the Mongols.

Bede's three remaining city locations are indicated by the dots (in order: red, green, blue).

We've discovered dyes (S of Entremont) and spices (two off to the NW and one underneath our warrior in the pic). Note the barb camp close to Alesia. I didn't think it was worth sending a warrior to deal with yet, but we'll want to take it out when we get the chance.

Neither China nor the Mongols have Alphabet yet, so there's definitely a trading opportunity as soon as Hannibal is willing to give it to us (he still won't even for everything we have). Or possibly try to trade for WC (should be cheaper since everybody has it), but brokering Alpha seems like a better idea to me.

And the Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/Bede_SG006_BC2550_01.SAV), for the next better player.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, and the roster:

Minute Man - just played
Mab - up!
Tubby Rower - on deck
Pied Piper
eldar
Bede

should we be shaving off a settler off of Alesia instead of a barracks? It looks like we might be able to get another settler out quicker if we do. The downside is that there might not be enough escorts.

This is my got it.

Anymore suggestions before I crack open the save? It seems our short term priorities are tech brokering, settler building and military.

What's this no AI patrol thing? :confused: And is it allowed by the rules?

EDIT: just done a bit of digging in the ref thread and it seems it's positively encouraged by the staff. NoAIpatrol here I come!

Good call on the settler pull from Alesia, but let it finish the barracks first as that won't cripple the population growth and you can send the worker to chop the game forest to help.

If I read the screenshot aright there are two warriors in town so leave one and send the other with the settler.

Ok I've just finished playing.

Pre turn: 2550BC
Check cities, can't tweak to improve growth or shields so leave as set them.
Enter diplomacy, can buy BW fairly cheap but still no luck with alphabet(due in 20)
Spot some incense near Mongols that I don't think was mentioned?

Turn 1
Worker completes road/mine near Entremot. Send him to road game then silks.
Warriors continue in same directions. Nothing new to report.

IBT
Barb attacks warrior. Win no damage.

Turn 2 2470BC
Nothing much, warriors continue exploring and worker starts construction on new road. Still no trading opportunities.

IBT
Ooops, Entremot goes into disorder! I could have sworn I checked that last turn. Sorry guys.

Turn 3 2430BC
Bump up lux tax to 20% so no citizens are wasted. Still no trades that I'm prepared to pay for. China will offer us a pittance for pottery (1 tech, BW)

IBT
Looks like the Carthaginians are off barb hunting.

Turn 4 2390BC
Nothing much. Settler due next turn. Carthage are holding on to alpha, not even everything we have inc 6gpt will secure it. I'm itching to pop some of those goody huts!

Turn 5 2350BC
Settler completed. Send it on a "go to" to the red dot. Change production to Barracks for want of anything better. Toyed with an early temple but figured the shields would be better spent on military stuff at the moment.
Just reread Bede's last post and realised should have chopped forest before roading. I really should make a list before playing! Alesia will grow next turn, it's going to complete its barracks before building the settler, growth is a bit slow at this stage. Once the game forest is chopped and irrigated, we'll be able to crank a few more settlers.

IBT
Mongol scout comes a calling.

Turn 6 2310BC
Nothing much happening.Warriors are on 'explore but avoid barbs' mode. MM Entremot to grow a turn sooner. Still no decent trades available. No one has any new stuff, looks like the huts are being tight.

IBT
Mongol infidels pop our hut by Alesia.

Turn 7 2270BC
Darn! Mongols got a tech! I think it was Masonry.
China will trade Pottery +99gold for BW and WC. I think that's a good deal, but don't trade as I've temporarily lost internet access and can't check with you guys. Grr!
MM Alesia to get extra food and still get barracks in 1 turn.

Turn 8 2230BC
Alesia completes barracks. Set to settler in 6 turns. Grow in 8.
Road completed. Dilemma: connect lux or chop game and irrigate first?
I decide the lux is more important so command worker to connect silks.
No new trades possible.

IBT
Mongols are building The Colossus
China demands we leave town.

Turn 9 2190BC
Lugdunum founded.+4 fpt, grow in 5t, set to build warrior.
Man these workers are slow! 7 turns to build a road? I propose that a worker should be built before the next settler.

Turn 10 2150BC
Nothing really of interest. Warriors are spread out across the known world.

Trading Ops
Carthage seems to have lost a lot of gold this turn. I don't know if it was pillaging or trade for a tech that we don't have the pre-req for. I'm thinking they just bought IW. They'll accept all our gold and 2gpt for Alpha (due in 10t), that was just their first demand, I haven't tried to bargain.
Mongols now have alphabet and are a bit more expensive than Carthage.
China still don't have pottery or alphabet.

I think we should try and buy alpha and trade it to China for tech and gold.


Heres a screenie:

Sorry for the fast repost, heres the >>>SAVE<<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/Bede_SG006_BC2150_01.SAV) and a larger minimap

We still only have the 1 Worker?! Next player ought to skim a Worker from Entremont after the Rax and switch Lugdunum to a Worker... discuss?

FWIW, I'd have done the tech deal.

Neil. :cool:

We are making excellent progress. :thumbsup: MM and Mab

@TR, pull out all the stops and trade like a madman. If nothing else get what value you can for Pottery. And don't hesitate to pay what you feel may be a high price for something, if there is someone to buy it from you. The only cardinal error in trading techs is buying something then not having some other sucker ready to pay you something for it.

Also, reset, if you can, Alesia so it gets the settler after it grows. And, finally, I would put a priority on a town at the Incense to the NW, then the towns on the coast.

@Mab - The Pottery plus 90 for two warfaring techs was not a bad deal. Though I would have tried to buy Alphabet first, probably.


Roster check:
Tubby Rower - up
Pied Piper - on deck
eldar
Bede
Minute Man
Mab

Just a word to TR, when Bede says having someone to buy a tech from you, this means that they must have some money (or line of credit), as well a lack of the tech knowledge you wish to trade. Credit line is really not a factor this early in the game.

Ok. I got it. I've learned a lot in TR01 & some of the other SGs that I'm in about tech trading. So maybe I can put some to practice. Too bad dman is in team smackster and won't be able to benefit from his pupil's progress :D . I'll play now

List of things I'll be doing....
get Alesia to grow before settler production (unless something > 3 turn delay)
Get more workers out of Entremont & Lugdunum
trade for other techs & gold (priority on Pottery)

Is it kosher to trade for a worker in SGOTM? I need an answer pretty quick otherwise I'm going to do it. It's part of a tech deal and Carthage has had a worker in it's capital for 3 turns and we need workers. I don't see anything wrong with it but didn't want to do it unless it's ok.

EDIT: I re-read through the intro PM that Bede to see if there was an answer in there. There is no mention of buying workers off of AI in the banned exploits list so I'm going to assume that it is ok.

BTW, tech trading is fun now that I know how to do it!!! ;)

T0 2150BC - Get Alpha from Carthage for 183g + 1gpt
trade Alpha & pottery to China for Masonry, BW, WC & 48G
Mongols & Carthage have IW, we're even with China
155G total for 4 techs isn't bad is it?
Couldn't get Alesia to grow faster...all food tiles are also shield rich
Writing @ min
T1 2110BC - Entremont barracks -> worker should get him next turn (8 shields + 2 on growth)
China bought IW or popped it, they had no gold when I left them
western warrior sees purple borders
T2 2070BC - Entremont worker -> settler
move worker to Lugunum to develop that area since the other 2 cities won't be growing much more than what they are now
MM Lugunum to get another worker in 3 turns -1 food + 1 shield sacrificed 1 turn on growth
Oh lucky day! western warrior meet Iroquois (purple border) he's up The wheel & down Masonry has 85 G
AND a Japanese scouting warrior (he's up the Wheel & IW and down Masonry) has 0 G
trade Japan Masonry for IW straight up
trade Iroquois IW for the Wheel & 24 G
see no horses but we 2 irons right outside of our borders (but one is on the other side of the Amazon)
trade Carthage The Wheel for 185G + a slave
trade Mongols The Wheel for 137G
slave to BG south of Entremont to mine/road
T3 2030BC - trade Carthage 431G +1gpt for Myst.
trade Iroquois Masonry for 61G to get some cash
trade Japan Myst, 6gpt & 46G for HBR
trade Carthage HBR for 432G
T4 1990BC - Alesia settler -> warrior
MM Lugdunum for foor will grow and build worker next turn
move settler to spot between forest & hill along river with no escort
T5 1950BC - silk road done woo hoo!
MM Entremont for food settler next turn
Mongols have a worker for sale, if still there next turn might trade Myst for the slave & 58G
T6 1910BC - Entremont settler -> settler MP will escort
Lugdunum worker -> warrior
Camulodunum founded -> warrior
drop lux down to 10%
Mongol worker left so no trade
T7 1870BC - Alesia warrior -> warrior
move warrior for protection of Camulodunum
T8 1830BC - Japanese city of Izumo is founded across the Amazon
move Alesia MP to Entremont for happiness
T9 1790BC - zz
T10 1750BC - Entremont settler -> curraph for exploration
Alesia warrior -> archer
Richborough founded on north coast -> worker
lux to 0%

There is a settler left in Entremont. We need to decide whether to expand west or collect the dyes in the south. There's not much out there for trading. Mongols & China have 58g & 50g respectively and are missing Myst & HBR. Japan, China, & Iroquois are building the pyramids, China the Colossus, & Japan the oracle. No other wonders currently. I've started to see Chinese archers scouting around. Our military is weak compared to everyone (surprise, surprise) we're expanding. JApan has 9 cities :eek: .

We currently have MP's in all cities, no escort for the new settler though. 3 warrior scouts. 3 workers & 1 slave. 464g with +8gpt. There is a goodie hut at the tip of the Chinese island and we have a warrior 1 tile away. I figure that we could pop that hut, our warrior would be on a mountain for defense and then the barbs might try to hit the Chinese ;)

Save from 1750 BC (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/Bede_SG006_BC1750_01.SAV)

dotmap
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sgotm6_1750bc.jpg

goodie hut by Chinese
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sgotm6_chinese_gh.jpg

MiniMap
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sgotm6_mini1750.jpg

EDIT:8 techs and gained 67G and a slave!!! :p Was that good enough trading Bede?

Doesn't sound bad at all TR. Am at work right now but will read more thoroughly tonight and get it then.

Nice trades there!
I didn't try to bargain with the AI because it was my last turn and you're not supposed to make deals on your last turn.
If my damned internet connection hadn't quit on me right at the vital moment then I could have asked you guys about that earlier trade. I thought it was reasonable but didn't think we'd recoup our gold at that point.

Anyway I'm glad I didn't mess up my turns, stage fright and all that!

Anyway I'm glad I didn't mess up my turns, stage fright and all that!
Me too. I didn't want to screw things up either, and I don't think we messed up. According to our score graph (which I know doesn't mean anything this early) We are in the lead. BTW, it looks like team Barbslinger finally played and matched Bede's opening turnset for the score.

According to our score graph (which I know doesn't mean anything this early) We are in the lead.

Yey! Go team! :goodjob: Just imagine our score if I hadn't made a couple of little mistakes (like the disorder :blush: )

So what are our medium term plans? Expand like crazy, build a bit of culture and stomp the enemies?

BTW I'm trying to get over my addiction to smilies.

@TR, :thumbsup:

Roster check:

Pied Piper - up
eldar - on deck
Bede
Minute Man
Mab
Tubby Rower

Got it, will play tonight, sorry I couldn't do it last night.

No sweat, Pied. You're well within the window.

Game File (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sgotm6tb1500bc.sav)
Well this is about the time that the demands begin, what stance do we wish to take?
I know, give in till we can crush them.
Need to decide destination for settler
Look at strategic level.
1) we are only half a civ, the other half is across the straits, unless we move our palace.
2) There is such a thing as a bridge too far. The spices are near that point, wrt the Chinese
3) will settle on this side of spices, on hill for defense. Just inside the limits of reduced corruption. And surrounding our Iron source.
4) notice in this game we have some distance between us and the neighbors, will likely delay the initial hostilities.
5) also notice that many mountains really divide up the landscape and will influence the wars.

What is fortified warrior doing in the middle of nowhere? Recall back to homeland to new city location. Nah, explore.
Why writing at 10%? If this low why not 0% and save 2gpt? Leave as is.

Camul: warrior>barracks
Livy list 8 happiest.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sgotm6tbpp1.jpg
1725: 1
workers finish mine(?) on wheat tile.
Pop Chinaman's hut (per recommendation) for gift of 50 gold.
Change Ent to archer for no wasted shields (as opposed to 6)
---
Lug: warrior>worker

1700: 2
Far west warrior halts to heal 1 HP.
---
Ent:archer>curragh

1675: 3
Already too late. Chengdu is built next to dyes.
If I can't have the red dot I will go for the green dot.

1650: 4
China learns Myst
Major waste of shields in Alesia, change to temple or settler for no waste.
Change to Temple to incorporate Iron since red dot was taken.
Found Verulamium on green dot.
West warrior sees furs in southern Japan.
Ent: curragh>temple

1625: 5
Iroquois get HBR, Mongol scout sighted south of capital.
Cur can only move one space?

1600: 6
Alesia: Temple>worker
Lug: worker>barracks
---
Rich: worker>worker
Mongols building Colossus, but Trondheim finishes it.

1575: 7
Hire taxman in Ent for 1 turn.
---
Japan complains about ship in his personal space.
Alesia worker>archer
Wonder building announcements

1550: 8
10% lux for 1 gpt, will need several turns
---
Entremont borders expand.
Ent: temple>settler (to be completed as road south finishes.)

1525: 9
Japan got writing and settled Yokohama

1500: 10
Exploring warriors caught by border expansions.

Fairly uneventful turns. Iron online next turn is biggest news. Ships only move 1 tile per turn.
Selected first build of Verul as temple because of experience in SG Tim01.
Front line city with that many mountains will need a temple for war sight and heal prevention.
Will be no problem to make into barracks instead.

@ Pied Piper, Did you upload the save to the submissions page here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm.php)? I noticed on the graph that our team has only made it to 1750BC. I think that this needs to be done evry turnset.

@ PP - we're researching Writing @ 10% because we wouldn't get it any (much...) faster at a higher rate.

I'll play this tomorrow morning, as long as I'm not dragged to Ikea, or somewhere worse....

Neil. :cool:

Piper's save uploaded.

Roster check:

eldar - up
Bede - on deck
Minute Man
Mab
Tubby Rower
Pied Piper

I think that the next city should go after the spices to the west on the southern coast. Then start filling in the south. I can't open the save but it looks like Entremont will be producing a settler soon. We also need to be skimming some settlers off of some of the other cities following Bede's plan to do settler spawn.

It looks to me like we might lose this incense if we don't act fast. I recommend we send the next settler to the marked spot to block the AI asap. The chinese already have spices so won't be as keen to settle near the other spices tile.
The spot isn't on a river, but has a good defensive position, bonus grass and lots of mountains (coal etc!), but the major advantage is immediate access to incense.

I'll play this tomorrow morning, as long as I'm not dragged to Ikea, or somewhere worse....

Neil. :cool:

I hope that isn't the new Ikea where you're likely to get crushed or stabbed! :eek:

I hope that isn't the new Ikea where you're likely to get crushed or stabbed! :eek:

It would be, except it's remaining closed 'until further notice'!!

Neil. :cool:

I like your thinking there Mab. In fact I almost made a comment in the notes about going 6 more tiles directly west and settling on that river, instead of following the dot map. Of course I would then have to add that it would most certainly be a bridge too far, way too far. Sometimes even 1 or 2 tiles further out can make all the difference in being able to successfully defend, or not; as we found out building Saint Lewis, twice, in SG Tim01. In this case we must be content to let the AI build it for us to take.

I left Alesia building an archer but it could be switched to swordsman, which is great to have if we need it but will trigger an early GA if used. I really wanted to make it a settler but I know Bede is itching for a fight. That is also why I started the barracks in the two other cities. If an archer rush is going to work it has to be done now. It may already be too late to get much more than the China spice city, and whatever city is by the incense.

While I am thinking about it, I am all for chopping any forest needed for shields to build barracks or other city improvement. The earlier in the game the better because of the exponential effect over time. We will be able to replant them soon enough. Especially chop any forest on Game tiles and irrigate for the extra fpt.

>>THE SAVE<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/Bede_SG006_BC1250_01.SAV)

Well, 1250BC, and we're still only 1 point behind the 'experts' of Team Offa!

A very nice set of turns, during which we:
- Gained 3 new techs!
- Gained a new contact!
- Built a new city, and have 3 Settlers out on the go!
- Connected Iron :hammer:!

Turn Log:
0 1500 Japan has Writing, but won't trade :( Nothing else to look out for, it seems. IT: Iron connected.
1 1475 Writing still extortionate. Whip Temple in Verulamium. IT: Entremont Settler->Curragh, Verulamium Temple->Rax
2 1450 IT: Alesia Archer->Settler. Richborough Worker->Rax.
3 1425 Writing will still cost all of our treasury. IT: Entremont Curragh->Settler. Camulodunum Rax->Settler.
4 1400 Gergovia founded, starts Temple (whip on growth). The Dyes are now secured. Writing drops in price, so I go searching for a deal; Mysticism+HBR for Writing+4g from Mongols. Sell to Hannibal for 95g, HBR to China for 50g. Research is now Phil at MAX (10 turns @ -7, but easily sustainable). IT: Mongols get Lit (popped no doubt!!), Maths is also available.
5 1375 400g gets us Maths from Hannibal. Sell to Japan for 276g. I can also buy Lit for a decent price, so I do so - 310g from Hannibal, again (he's got the best prices in town, baby!) So our free tech, should we get Philo first, will be something else. I'd go for Construction, as it's the most expensive and most tradeable.
6 1350 IT: Entremont Settler->Hmm decision? We can build the SoZ?! Ivory is nowhere to be seen though. Build a Gallic.
7 1325 IT: Alesia Settler->Archer. Lugdunum Rax->Archer. Hannibal establishes an Embassy with us.
8 1300 Contact with India, sell Writing for 37g.
9 1275 IT: Camulodunum Settler->Gallic.
10 1250 Great news… our exploring Warrior got booted north of a choke controlled by Carthage!

At the moment, I'm building Archers in small/low-shield cities as they are quicker to build. Once they get up to 7/8spt, they can build Gallics. 8 or 10spt is optimal.

Here is a piccie showing where the Settlers are headed (to settle on the arrowheads):
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Settlers_1250BC.jpg

Neil. :cool:

Great, great progress everybody.

Got it.

I'm leaning towards Polytheism for the Philo tech and building the Temple of Artemis.

1) The auto temples in captured or built towns are a major boost towards 100K
2) We don't need Education 'till we own the continent so the obsolesence will come late
3) When Education does come the populations of the auto temple towns will be large enough for "whipped" temples.

The value of Poly is less than Construction, true, but it is still eminently tradeable. The alternative would be to wait for Polytheism to come up in trade negotiations with a pre-build in the capitol.

The ToA is more costly than any of the Wonders now being built so once the knowledge comes up for trade the risk of losing a pre-build to the cascade is low.

Let me know what you all think.

We need to get our pre-build going, though. Thanks to the Mongols popping Lit, everyone we know (and probably most we don't, as well) are building the GL.

Surprised to see the Mongols settle the spices so soon and not the incense. Perhaps our next cities can be next door, pop a few temples and absorb them into the Celtic way of life. Until then we will need at least one unit in each city, including Verul, to prevent flipping.

As for the northern settler I advise three more turns of travel west to the edge of the lake. There is already a warrior next to the tile for MP. This location has no culture conflict whereas the other may flip from border contact with Chengdu. Chengdu should be razed and rebuilt 1 tile south to fit into our pattern.

Any trading done should be biased against helping Japan. Japan needs to be weak and should be our first victim after we get some ships. The productivity of this area will be huge due to the lack of corruption.

Wonder prebuild should be in Richborough, we can convert the barracks started there. The capital is my second choice since it is more useful as a source for settlers and military units since it already has a granary and barracks we are paying for each turn. The wonder should be in an east coast city.

Free research should be construction. It is more expensive but it also has other wonders that can be built if the AI builds TOA first. Once we do get Poly I would not like to trade it until we finish TOA.

I think we should plant some coastal cities (particularly near Izumo) to try and flip some Japanese towns. Flipping the one near the Iron would be particularly good.

Great turns Eldar! The trades were particularly good, I must remember to check who can buy tech when I go on a trading round.

Are we planning an imminent war with the Mongols or the Chinese? An early GA timed to help clinch the ToA would be good seeing as we can't switch to republic or monarchy. (we are playing the variant, right!) There's no need to put off the GA as we'll have to have it in despotism anyway IYSWIM.

Those gallic swords rock!

Concur with Construction after checking tech costs.

Also concur with not using the capitol for the ToA.

The more I think on it the less tempted I am to build the Temple though making a try for it in Richborough is the good choice. Richborough, however is only 2spt at the moment and will need to grow a bunch before tackling a 500 shield wonder that is only 1 tech away.

We will need Map Making and boats to go after Japan and lots of units for any towns we put over there as Japan is the current culture monster, though taking on Japan before they get to Samurai is important.

I think my plan is to work Entremont for Gallics and settlers, the other towns for archers and settlers and to close the gap between the current border and the Incense.
Piper's notion of moving the northern settler to the west fits well into that.

BTW, silks, not ivory, is the pre-req for the SoZ. Checked with m-b in the SGOTM Maintenance Thread. That makes for a whole 'nother discussion: do we want to build the Statue in Entremont? AC + Gallics will be nearly unstoppable. But it is eighteen turns or so to the Statue which is the equvalent of 4 GS's.

Keep those comments coming, I think advice and consent is needed from all the Druids here.

BTW, silks, not ivory, is the pre-req for the SoZ.

:confused: That's kooky. I haven't been able to look at the save recently enough to know where to build SoZ, but I think that it would be nice to have a silk statue of Zeus instead of the Ivory one of history!!

BTW, I was playing the Celts in a solo game one time and the Gaellic Swords upgrade to MDI with zero cost. I thought that something was wrong at first but they both have the same amount of shield-cost.

I wouldn't go with the upgrade, though. After our GA, though, we won't be able to build Gallics, if we have Feudalism: it sucks, but that's the way it is :(

A few more thoughts on the free tech (assuming we get it, of course!)

You can bet your bottom dollar that the AIs will, for the most part, be researching either Construction or Map Making. So Construction, if we go for it, will be worth a few turns' of research, and no techs. Currency, on the other hand, may well end up netting us Poly, MM, and Constr, in conjunction with Philo. So I'm changing my vote for the free tech to the least researched by the AI - Currency.

Neil. :cool:

I've seen Currency net big gains (pun intended) before too. That's usually the last AA tech that they'll go for. I'm with eldar. Let's get currency!

I'm leaning toward not building the ToA. It would be nice to have, but not quite nice enough to be worth the 500 shields. Particularly since we don't have a great place to build it unless we want to tie up Entremont. Maybe we can convince one of our neighbors to build it for us.

Not sure about the SoZ. It seems less impressive for the Celts because it basically just gives us more Gallics. OTOH, we can go to war with AC and archers and not trigger our GA. So I'm not sure whether it's worth building or not.

I like Currency as the free tech as well.

Sending the northern settler west seems like a good idea. I'm not sure about the southern settler - it seems like there ought to be something better to do than building fishing villages in the tundra. We'll get the dyes when Gergovia expands its borders anyway.

Trying for the incense is probably a good idea, but it makes me nervous to build a city that far away from our territory. I'm not sure the suggested spot is best - we could go a space N of there and be on the coast, or a space E and be on a hill on the river, and either would get the incense on border expansion. It's going to take us a while to connect roads anyway, so I don't see much point in trying to have it immediately. Or are we worried that somebody will poach the incense unless we settle right next to it?

I feel a little silly; if we can get construction then of course we could get currency. I got sidetracked by the poly choice. Currency gets my vote for the freebie. I will say that we should delay trading it once we get it so that we don't advance the AI too fast. We will want to trade it before they research it completely though.

The nicest thing about building the SoZ will be that we won't have to fight some other civ that has it. An AC may be equivalent to a GS but I would think that we would get more than 5 AC from the statue, unless we really speed up the AI research pace. Plus we get all the culture as well (100K goal) for a relatively cheap wonder that won't be strongly contested. And using the AC won't trigger our GA. I vote strongly for this proposal.

Though I doubt we can convert a Japanese city it would be great if we did. There is room for two cities on the coast between Rich and Ent. Do we want two here or only one, and if only one then where should it go? If two are desired then the locations are fixed. Let's decide which and rush a temple. The sooner this is done the more likely it will succeed.

Speaking of Rich, it will grow twice as fast as normal with the irrigated wheat. Just devote a worker to irrigate the surrounding plains in order to accomodate the growing population. If we don't get ToA then we get something else instead, the FP if nothing else. How many cities will we need to qualify for FP, is that still 10?

I wouldn't worry about the security of building a city by the Incense. Our roads already go halfway there. Building a connected road network is one of the most important things that workers can do, so lets make that a priority while we are still at peace. Personally I would prefer building on the river over there. I have never seen the AI build a city with culture borders that touch - unless they have no other room.

Was looking at the save and the area of Rich. We could pop rush a temple now for a relatively efficient 16 shield gain. With the border expansion this would reserve some tiles on the other continent that could be used to settle a city with barracks to act as our forward base during the Japan war.

For micromanagement, the shortfall of 11 grain will mean two turns of working just the plains after the whip (gains 2 shields in same number of turns), and then back to the wheat. Rich actually grows every 4 turns (not 5 as I first thought), so we should probably keep both workers there for quite a while.

The waste of shields in Ent next turn is just way too painful to see. Can we switch that to SoZ (only 15 turns, with growth) or even a library (5 turns) please?

Good thinking all. :salute: Let's keep it up.

Play has been delayed as AlanH is fixing a little problem in the C3C saves on the server. The issue relates to naval movement.

BTW, it is a good idea for everyone to subscribe to the SGOTM6 Maintenance Thread, if you haven't already. Because these games are modded occasional glitches occur and are reported there, as are the fixes if any.

Yep, I read it and still don't understand how it has/will affect us.

Did take a moment to make an expansion plan proposal. Everything inside the white border is roughly our productive core. Still some squatters we need to evict, or convert. The large harp symbol is immediate goal, the small symbol with #2 is a second generation fill city once we have security established and settler factories online. Cities outside this zone should be widely spaced and limited to controlling area (and resources) so as to not drive corruption into the core. Would be prudent to build second gen cities from the outside inward, as the situation warrants. Third generation can then be outside the core, if the game is still not won.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SG6TBcoreprop1.jpg

As I see it, after this current crop of settlers, there are only 5 core first gen cities left to build that do not have culture border conflict, or require ships. Plan accordingly. For an easy reference point, Osaka is 11 tiles directly east of our capital.

With regard to the development of the west, there are 9 tiles that need roads essential to the security and happiness of our cultured citizens. Only two are mountainous, but then again, the rest are hills and forest.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SG6westfront1.jpg

This "druid" agrees with most of the above, I usually go for currency anyway as soon as I get Maths cos I've noticed the AI often leave it till last, and those marketplaces are a handy improvement to have.
As for wonders, this is emperor right? That means we're up against lower build costs so we should get cracking on any important wonders as soon as poss. I don't know if we'll have the time to wait for Rich to grow, but Entremot is one of our best cities and it might be foolhardy to commit all its production to a wonder before we're ready.

Do we have embassies yet? They might provide a handy spying window in a few turns, once wonder prod starts up. Does everyone have that pop-up enabled?

We have one embassy, with Carthage; Hannibal established it with us, saving us the pennies :)

Nice plan, Piper. Everybody download and paste to the monitor please.
:mischief: ;) Orange harps?
And excellent divination from all.

I think I let Richborough start on the SoZ. If we get it, great, if we don't we have a prebuild for a library or university, or even ToA. It's far enough from the action that a barracks is a waste.

Take Currency for free tech, build military, sail our now +1 movement curraghs, develop tpwards the west.

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/Bede_SG006_BC1000_01.SAV)

In 1200 Japanese start the Pyramids.

In 1175 Philosphy comes in right on time and we learn Currency for free and start on Map Making.

In 1125 foudned Augustdorum on the river next to the Incense. I just hated to give up the river food bonus.

In 1100 Hannibal empties his treasury for Philosphy (496g). Everybody else in the world is broke.

Also in 1100 founded Ebarocum west of the lake

In 1075 Babylon completes the Pyramids. Mongols start the Library, Carthage the Library, and the MausHaus. No completions.

In 1050 Japanese start Temple of Artemis, as I expected they might, in Osaka, 4spt, due in 64, with a bunch of shields in the bin, must have swapped from something else. I also note the Temple at Osaka was built more a thousand years ago.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SGOTM6Bede1050.jpg

In 1025 buy a worker from India for 104g.

1000
There is a settler heading west from Camulodunum, a settler due in 4 from Camulodunum, and Entremont can switch to a settler when its sword is done.

There are a few trades to be done, Literature to India for example, and Poly from Japan. Lugdumunum is within a couple of shields of taking over the military build duties from Entremont, which could produce the ToA faster than Osaka as we have 3x the shields and potential for more. I'm tempted to go for it.

If we don't start the ToA at Entremont, then it is 7 turn Gallic settler producer. Building a Gallic in 4 from pop5 to 6 then a settler from pop5 to pop7.

I am going to make my pitch for forest preservation again. Chopping the silks forest at Alesia cost us a high gold, high shield field. If a chop were needed it could have been done in the west, but remember we have the equivalent of two bonus food fields with the city center and the irrigated game. Please keep that in mind, if you want the Druid Bede to be happy, leave his oak trees alone.

We have the muscle to start a dogpile on the Japanese who are the territorial and cultural leader right now. I'm inclined to do it. It would slow them down right now, pit everybody in the workld against them, and kill the tech pace every place but in the Celtic Realm. Just make sure to get Polytheism from them first. We wouldn't have to face any fighting for quite a while as everyone between us and them is sucked into the war, and when we learn Map Making and build a few galleys we can make a landing in force on their shores...

Nice moves Bede, I like that you did the MM in August. Verul should probably work the tree on the river though, although for one wasted shield instead of four I would rather just work the grasslands. Tell you what, I promise to plant a tree in every city when we learn Engineering. What I won't say is how long they last before getting chopped down. The silk tree will not be cut by me once it is replanted. BTW, Rich has two trees in the radius now so we probably don't want to mine any more plains over there.

Just a question on the war plans for now, did you want to build so many GS this early? I would think that you would prefer two archers instead of one GS from Ent since it has an even 10spt production. I would have thought that having one or two for emergencies and to put a little respect into the AI would be sufficient at this point.

Japan is obviously the top priority target but there are two chinese cities that probably should be razed and a Mongol one that could be taken over. Is there any requirement for reputation, are we allowed to declare war, and also, should we, if the situation for gain arises?

Perhaps we can start a few catapults soon? Perfer to build them in cities without barracks, Geo is the only reasonable place after the current build finishes.

It's been my experience that velocity outweighs mass so I really prefer GS's over archers despite the cost advantage of archers. Hence my preference for horsemen over archers when I can build them. Concur that catapaults are useful in any case.

Declaring war will not harm our reputation although it may affect attitude, so any time we feel the need to blood our swords, declare away. I would prefer keeping any cities we take as that is just one less settler we need to produce.

Mining two more plains at Richborough will put more gold in the treasury than working the trees on the islands or in the corner. Even without the ability to pay for improvements the added gold will support more buildings.

In towns without food bonuses it is best to work the grasslands for the population growth, at least until we hit the natural limit for the town.

May I suggest getting a Library in Entremont sooner rather than later? Libraries to follow suit in the rest of the core, too.

Well I was just concerned about triggering the GA, when did you want that to happen?

Fortunately most of our towns are on rivers, so the pop limit is 12. I suscribe to the growth is power philosophy, so I prefer to irrigate first where possible and then mine. More than 5fpt surplus is where I tend to draw the line of diminishing returns.

I also shave off workers when there is no developed tile for new pop. For instance, the next build for Verul should be a worker. There really should be another worker devoted to the road west.

A dozen catapults makes for a good initial build set. Keeps the contractors happy and a big help in keeping our losses down. All those archers we have are also good for free defensive shots when they retire from active duty.

I also would like to start building libraries sooner rather than later. If we can stay out of war that would help. We have most of western core area. Japan is the big target for our military ambitions. We have much to gain there, as opposed to a single productive city each from Mongols and China.

Hangchow must be razed I feel. The only tile over there not on a river. The AI certainly has a talent for building this way. Chengdu can be a keeper but I would not be unhappy with an autoraze.

War with Japan is worth an earlier GA, but only if it is on the other continent. Fighting them on our side should only be done with archers, until we can bring the fight to them. With reduced naval movement any ships will probably be best employed as land bridges. If we do finish SoZ before ships are built that will give us a chance to delay using our GS over there.

I like the dogpile idea on Japan as we will benefit the most. Did we want Japan to finish ToA in Osaka before we take it?

If I am not mistaken:

Minute Man - up
Mab - on deck
Tubby Rower
Pied Piper
eldar
Bede
___________

I really do like the score graph comparing our progress to the other teams but remember to only compare with those teams playing C3C. Also don't get too concerned with score since culture (100K!) is what really matters.

I agree with the library idea. I think that the ship movement bug was fixed. I haven't looked at the save in quite a while so I can't comment on any of the wonder builds.

I think that the Chinese & Mongolian cities should be left alone for right now until the Japanese are diminished a little. How soon is map-making coming in? We should also start some settler builds before the Japan war to fill in some of the autorazing that's going to happen in Japan. I think that we should target the pop >2 cities first but the AI might not be as selective.

Took a look at the number of pages each team has posted. Noticed that the staff team is a little slow out of the starting gate. We seem to be doing slightly less than average and with more turns done. Could it be that other teams are having a difficult time reaching consensus? Or do they just have more brilliant strategies to discuss? So far I am fairly happy with our progress, but do wonder what the barbarians are up to. Anybody seen any?

So far I am fairly happy with our progress, but do wonder what the barbarians are up to. Anybody seen any?
I'm happy with our progress. I think it is mainly due to the divine nature of our leader :lol:

M-B said something in the maintenance thread about the barbarians, let me see if I can find it.... Ah here it is
This was in response to team Offa's Klarius that was curious about the lack of barbarian activity....
I can't respond to the Barbarian question adequately now. If you still think that this is a problem then we can discuss it in the first spoiler. Inspection of various saves have not quickened my pulse any, wheras the water movement cost bug certainly did!

Got it. Will probably play this evening.

What does everybody else think about Bede's idea of starting a war with Japan ASAP? It does seem to me that if we're planning on fighting them soon, now might be a good time to start the dogpile, since they can't reach us yet. Then we can either build some boats (once MM comes in) and invade, or just let the AI bash each other for a while.

So far I am fairly happy with our progress, but do wonder what the barbarians are up to. Anybody seen any?

The exploring warriors saw barbarians both to the north and west during my first set of turns. There was also that barb camp near Alesia. So there definitely are at least some around. Maybe the AI is taking care of them for us?

I agree with the early war in principle but have noticed I'm due to play soon. I have no probs fighting a defensive war (as that is what I usually do!) but am pretty weak on offensive combat. If the war turns ugly then I may need more time to play my turns so I can check with you guys before making any lame decisions.

OK little panic over! As for other teams post counts, I read the X-team threads last time (non-player!) and they have a constructive style interspersed with a bit of non-game issues. So far so good. One other team that shall remain nameless (but let's just say I was part of it) had MANY posts from the "leader" basically shouting everyone down and spitting the dummy out a lot. I'm so relieved that our noble leader (male Boudica) has offered to take a few noobs under his wing. Makes the game more relaxed and gets the best out of everyone.

Anyway.... let's open up a can of whoop @ss!

My notion of the early war with Japan was a "Let's him and you fight, I'll watch." strategy.

Random thoughts:

1) Japan has to cross an entire continent to reach us.
2) They are the culture monster and need to come down a peg or two.
3) We have the economic muscle to hire evrybody against them.
4) Once Map Making comes in (~17 turns IIRC) we can load GS's, catapults, settlers and workers into boats and send them across the straits for a beach head.
5) War Weariness is not an issue in our available governments so eternal war should not bother us, especially if it is against somebody who can't reach us.
6) Looking at the map it appears to me that Japan and the Celts are the only nations with decent lands to work with, the only exception might be Sumer who I believe is north of India. So the taking of other towns are going to be fraught with issues like slow pop growth. That's where the ToA will help us big time, no need to sacrifice population for rushed culture
7) I don't think we will be researching the branches of the tech tree that lead to Education for some time. All we need from the top o' the tree is Theology for Cathedrals. Then make a beeline along the bottom to Cavalry.
8) On the barbarian thing I think it relates to the map, a crowded pan'. The other guys priortrize barbarian hunts so they have been pretty well eliminated from the main portion of the map. Our warrior exploring north of Carthage did find a village and popped barbs who disappeared into the jungles to the east.
9) As far as a "noble leader" (male Boudica? :blush: :rolleyes: ) it is in the nature of things that the more thoughtful the team the better the leadership. You guys are good at this so it makes me look better.

I imagine that Japan will also be getting Mapmaking soon. If most of their units are walking over to us at that time then they can't come across on ships when they do build some a dozen turns from now.

Just a sanity check here but I went into the save and tried to arrange alliance with Carthage as that seemed the most appropriate civ to start with. Even though he is very polite, he refused. So I talked with our creditors and gave the researchers a holiday, Carthage still won't fight with us. Does his price come down if we are actually at war, or if Japan has troops in his territory? I tried the other civs but realized we don't have embassies with anyone else except Japan. Maybe we should spend some gold for this.

Mab, I would not worry too much, it is well over 20 tiles through difficult terrain for India to even get to Augustodurum, I think a horse could just make it in 20 turns. Feel free to stop and ask for tactical advice at any time regardless of the situation. For instance, India may have an exploring unit or two that is closer to Augustodurum. BTW, I thought that city was supposed to be on the hill, not in the remains of a wasted forest. Wait till Bede hears about those poor trees.

Carthage still won't fight with us. Does his price come down if we are actually at war, or if Japan has troops in his territory?

Actually, I think our rep's been trashed (see below). So he won't take gpt.

...Augustodurum. BTW, I thought that city was supposed to be on the hill, not in the remains of a wasted forest. Wait till Bede hears about those poor trees.

Bede founded it. :lol:

Now, on with the report:

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/Bede_SG006_BC0750_01.SAV)

0 - 1000 BC

After looking at the game a bit, I definitely like the idea of dogpiling Japan. They're the most powerful (known) civ, they have land we can use, and they can't do anything more threatening than stand on the other side of the channel and shout insults at us until they develop Map Making. So operation "Setting Sun" is put into action.

First, trade Poly from Japan. Unfortunately, he won't give it to us for anything less than Currency. So I grit my teeth and do it. Then I inform Tokugawa that his miserly ways are an affront to the Celtic people, and that we'll be dropping by to claim some of his territory ... er, whenever we get around to building things that float.

Establish embassy with India. Trade Gandhi Philo for 112 gold + MA vs. Japan.

Establish embassy with Iroquois. Trade Hiawatha Math + 65 gold for MA vs. Japan. In the process of the negotiations, discover that he won't accept gpt. It looks like our rep's already been trashed! I went back later and looked at the initial save, and it was already gone at the start of my turns, so not sure when it happened.

Establish embassy with Mongols. Discover that Karakorum is building the Great Library, due in 35 turns. Trade Temujin Philo for 23 gold + MA vs. Japan.

Give Hannibal 300 gold (ouch!) for MA vs. Japan. But it was either that or give him Currency, which doesn't seem worth it.

China has no contact with Japan, so can't invite him to the party.

Now for a decision on ToA. I'm coming around to the belief that it would be pretty darn useful, and we have enough other cities with food bonuses that we don't really need Entremont to build settlers. It looks like Karakorum might have enough of a head start to beat us if they cascade from the GL, so I decide it's worth the dough to investigate Carthage. GL is due there in 33 turns.

It's going to be close, but after staring at the screenshots for a while, I decide that we do have a good shot at winning the race, but we need to start now. So Entremont switched to ToA. Due in 44, but that'll drop. I think getting another worker or two over there is a high priority, though, as it's just about out of improved spaces to work.

Finally, I shuffle a couple of units around to have some forces ready near the coast for when (if?) Japan does show up. Change Gergovia to a worker, as we have a pretty serious worker shortage. Also note that we still have four unmet civs, so need to do more exploring.

OK, after all of that (and more than an hour), I finally press enter and start my turns. :)

1 - 975 BC

Wouldn't you know it, India has Map Making now. Right after all that trading I just did. :wallbash: Well, at least he won't be trading it to Japan anytime soon.

Trade Lit + 104 gold to Gandhi for MM. Trade MM to Carthage and get the 300 gold we just gave him back. Trade Philo to Iroquois for 96 gold and a worker. Buy a worker from the Mongols for 120 gold. Research set to Code of Laws.

We're not anywhere near ready to invade Japan, so I don't start any galleys. Besides, our two good coastal cities are building wonders right now...

3 - 925 BC

For future reference, the plains 2 spaces NE of Entremont, even though it's on the river, is not actually on the river. :hmm: Waste a couple of worker moves finding this out.

4 - 900 BC

Burdigala founded. Buy an Iroquois worker for 108 gold.

IT - our warrior N of Carthage gets killed by barbs. :( He was even standing on a mountain.

5 - 875 BC

Entremont is threatening to riot, so lux to 20%. Whip a temple in Augustodurum. Not entirely sure whether whipping a temple in Agedincum is worth it, but decide to go ahead and do it.

6 - 850 BC

Whip a temple in Eboracum. Note that India has Poly now. A couple of the AIs have money, but about all we have to sell is Poly and Currency, and I'd like to wait a bit and see if Construction comes on the market.

IT - our warrior near Japan is attacked by a Japanese warrior (and wins), then a swordsman (and loses). So now we have no exploring warriors.

8 - 800 BC

Orleans just completed the Statue of Zeus. :gripe: Change the Richborough build into a library.

Japan is now willing to talk peace. Even though we haven't done anything to him, he'd be willing to give his entire treasury (23 gold) for it.



Notes: There are two settlers en route. The northern one should found where he's standing. The other one is headed two spaces to the SW.

Still no contact with the other four civs. Don't know where they are.

I'm pretty sure we can beat either Karakorum or Carthage to the ToA. Especially if Hannibal doesn't get his hands on any luxuries anytime soon.

We have a couple of galleys being built. Should probably start thinking about when would be a good time to invade Japan.

Pictures coming in a few minutes....

Here are the cities I got to see:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SG6_Bede_Delhi.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SG6_Bede_Salam.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SG6_Bede_Karak.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SG6_Bede_Carth.jpg



And our core at 750 BC:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SG6_Bede_750BC.jpg

Roster check:

Mab - up!
Tubby Rower - on deck
Pied Piper
eldar
Bede
Minute Man

An hour to press return? Finally someone that plays slower than me. Will have to call you the 60 minute man from now on. BTW, this is a 100k culture game, it is never wrong to whip a temple, unless you lose the city. To get a lux good inside the radius is an extra incentive.

Too bad about SoZ, perhaps Rich can take over ToA and let Ent build a library and get back to doing what it does best. (settler/GS factory)

Oh good, some pictures are up. Nice turns there MM. Another luxury online soon. Looks like China is trying an end run with a settler past Lug. Must throw up a unit wall to stop that until we build that north city.

I know that I would build two boats and at least 4-6 catapults before invading Japan, but then I am used to a higher difficulty level. Maybe the RNG will be more forgiving at this level.

Note we can drop off 4 units per turn with each boat! It's like having a Galleon (except we can't transport full Armies....)

Just checked the save, both at 1000BC and 750BC, and there is nothing to worry about the trading reputation. Apparently the other nations have spies in our Exchequer as our credit is good so long as we are running a surplus, but not if we are running a deficit. If the reputation had been "trashed" the other party to the deal would have told us why, as in "We remember what you did to the Mongols!"

Also, you can't enter into an alliance until you are actually at war, or the other guy is at war with the victim.

Good call on the temple whips in the newer towns, should have pointed out that as soon as new town grows to 2 whip the temple.

Need to pull some workers into roading the forests at Entremont then add them to the city (natices only please) as the forests get their roads or the grasslands are mined.

Our progress is good but there are other teams with steeper curves. Not sure that means anything though as the curves don't count "kultcha" It may be time to put the arhcers and a cat or two to work on the Chinese. It will add to our empire faster than we can build settlers, I think.

Also, you can't enter into an alliance until you are actually at war, or the other guy is at war with the victim.
In the immortal words of the late Johnny Carson, "I did not know that!"

I think that Mad-Bax or Alan is working on a graph for culture instead of Fraxis score. Which would be nice for a game where everyone HAS to play the variant.

So the French will have Ancient Calvary running around. Have we met them yet? Is there another landmass anywhere for the unmet civs to be hiding out?

@ mab, take your time. Think things through. and you'll do fine. I'm still learning myself and in these succession games I think that you tend to do better because you only play 10 turns. So don't worry about screwing things up and take your time. If you have questions stop and ask.

EDIT:::How many shields per turn is Richboro making in comparision to ENtremont? That could help decide whether to switch the ToA build to Rich. or not.

An hour to press return? Finally someone that plays slower than me. Will have to call you the 60 minute man from now on.

:lol: Well, there were trades to make, a war to start, a dogpile to arrange... and I did spend a lot of time trying to calculate whether we could actually compete for the ToA. I do play slowly, though.

Just checked the save, both at 1000BC and 750BC, and there is nothing to worry about the trading reputation. Apparently the other nations have spies in our Exchequer as our credit is good so long as we are running a surplus, but not if we are running a deficit.

That's good to know. I noticed that they were reluctant to accept gpt, so I tried the test where I asked for 10 gold and offered a couple of gpt in return. They wouldn't take it, so I figured that meant our rep had been trashed. I didn't realize running a deficit had the same effect.

So the French will have Ancient Calvary running around. Have we met them yet? Is there another landmass anywhere for the unmet civs to be hiding out?

Well, in theory this is a "contiguous pangea". I am a little surprised that I didn't find any new civs, but the continent is so big that our curragh still has a long way to go to get around the whole thing.

EDIT:::How many shields per turn is Richboro making in comparision to ENtremont? That could help decide whether to switch the ToA build to Rich. or not.

Without looking at the save, I think Entremont is making 12 or so spt, while Richborough is more like 7. I think we definitely need to build the ToA in Entremont, or we risk losing it to a cascade from the GL. I just hope there isn't an unmet civ working on it...

I'm here!
Man it's annoying not being able to check this during the day :mad: My last job didn't block any websites so I got used to skiving off on here!

Congrats on the excellent trades and dogpiling 60MM, I'm always reluctant to give tech away but this time the only civ able to buy it was the one we're all at war with anyway.... nice work!

I'm not too worried about losing SoZ to the french, we've not even met them yet so they'll have to send all those free (but soon to be obsolete) AC throught everyone else to get to us. Toa is priority #1, I'll do a few calculations before my turns start and post the results here later.
I won't be able to play tonight (well not all 10turns) but will give a progress report asap.

@MM why did you only play 8 turns?

@Bede, Boudica was the only druid I could think of and she's female so I thought I should emphasize the "MALE" part!

Toa is priority #1, I'll do a few calculations before my turns start and post the results here later.

FWIW, my initial calculation (when I investigated cities at the start of my turn) was that Karakorum, with growth, would finish ToA in approx. 30-35 turns (20-25 from now), if it cascaded from the GL. Carthage had slightly more of a head start but less growth potential (especially since they needed an entertainer already), so will probably be a bit slower. And of course we only need to beat one of the two to get ToA.

I think we can beat Carthage, at least, but only if we use Entremont (which has probably accumulated close to 150 shields so far, so changing it to a library would be a big waste). I'm just a little worried about a cascade from one of those civs we haven't met yet.

@MM why did you only play 8 turns?

I played the full ten (the save is at 750 BC). But nothing exciting happened on the last two, so I left them out of the report.

Looks like China is trying an end run with a settler past Lug. Must throw up a unit wall to stop that until we build that north city.

Missed this earlier. The northern settler I mentioned is already in position to found that city.

Mab, I know war is not your thing but there is an opportunity here for some aggressive war prep "Maneuvers" wrt China.

MM already has a settler in position up north but China will still send their settler/spearman that way. Most likely one tile north of Lug. LET THEM THROUGH. But before you take your first turn you must send an archer pair out of Lug and across the river, just not to that tile. After China advances then send out another archer pair 1 tile NW and move the first archer pair to the tile China came from, to block them INSIDE our territory. After that you can play with them like a cat with a mouse, demand that they leave turn after turn until they actually declare war. Hopefully you will not have let them move into any good defensive terrain when this happens.

ALSO, there is another settler on its way to the green valley SW of Verul. Track them with the archers from Verul and Alesia, since MP not needed, but not with units from cities further west. The warrior on the mountain may also be used since those workers are not at risk before job completion. Connecting the 1 tile to Ebora should take precedence over the rest of the west road.

It looks to me like a war with China in the latter half of your turns would be extremely prudent. If you start now you may get them to declare on you.

Not sure I see any reason to "cat and mouse" the Chinese. Just position a couple of troops to wahck the settler pair when the other forces are in place to hit Chengdu. Just make sure we don't have anybody in their territory when we declare.

We will need at least two cats if we want to limit casualties to our archers, however. Though using the Gallics to inaugurate our Golden Age will probably guarantee us the ToA. We are close enough to the Middle Ages that starting it now is not that bad an idea. I have looked at the tech cost curve using CivAssist and the last AA techs are as costly as MA techs on a standard map. (Costs are a function of map size and number of opponents and may have been enhanced as part of the "equalization process" between C3C and 1.29/PTW.)

@Mab, Some things to remember about tactics:

1) Keep your eye on the prize. Do not scatter your forces.
2) Do not chase stray enemy troops unless they threaten to do damage elsewhere. Let the garrison troops at home deal with any incursions.
3) Speed kills. Play deliberately.
4) Speed kills. Hit and move on. Leave the wounded to heal and provide garrisons if necessary. Keep the healthy on the march.
5) Have fun playing Patton!

I only suggest the cat and mouse game for several turns because, quite frankly, we are not quite ready for war. We have exactly ZERO catapults for starters. Also any serious retaliation from China will fall outside her turn set.

May as well delay while we place our troops in position. Declaring only to kill a single settler seems like a waste to me. Send a fast GS over to the other settler moving south. Move main attack force, Get in position, then strike; don't advertise our intent and give China a chance to respond.

Based on the approval of GS usage, I put together the following order of operations you may find useful as a guide (should you choose to accept this mission):
---
Primary target is Chengdu (on the hill), Shantung is secondary.
Killing both settlers is mandatory and at your convenience.
---
Move warrior two tiles north into Ebora for MP duty.
Rush a catapult in Ebora after the pop growth next turn.
Move the warrior/archer/catapult two tiles north, then 1 tile east next to Chengdu.
Get the other GS into this stack if possible.
(bump lux for a turn and move MP from Calum to Ent)
Time approach of archer group from Lug to occupy tile south of Chengdu, approaching from the south, at the same time other group approaches from the East.
Hills have a defense bonus, as do attacks across rivers.
---
Expect the main counterthrust against Ebora and be prepared to send newly built units along the mountain road to reinforce this area. Just don't strip the entire East defenses.
---
Lug can be micromanaged for 4fpt/7spt to give archer in 3 turns with the same growth rate.
Catapults should also be built in the cities Aged, Burd (after temple rush), and Rich (after library), since these cities do not have barracks.
---
Personally I would delay the use of a GS until absolutely necessary. It may be necessary against Chengdu with only 1 catapult.
---
Good luck Mabellino, this tape will now self destruct.

Good planning, Piper.

I only suggest the cat and mouse game for several turns because, quite frankly, we are not quite ready for war. We have exactly ZERO catapults for starters.

Yeah, sorry about that. I saw the comments about building catapults, but it completely slipped my mind during my turns. Not entirely sure where I would have built them, though, since all of our cities with any halfway decent production were otherwise occupied.

Move warrior two tiles north into Ebora for MP duty.
Rush a catapult in Ebora after the pop growth next turn.

Watch the unhappiness if you do this...I did just whip a temple there about four turns ago.

I'm also not entirely sure I see the point of fighting a war with China right now - invading Japan seems more rewarding than picking off a Chinese city or two, and we are already at war with Japan. Keep in mind that China isn't involved in the dogpile (no contact with Japan), so they probably have lots of spare military at the moment.

I guess the question is if after taking two towns and two settlers will China be willing to talk peace? A nice short war. I could go either way on the war issue if it wasn't for the other settler headed south, that I think really needs to be stopped, or China becomes more than a minor annoyance. Getting the spices and a few slaves and promotions is an added incentive. Plenty of benefits, multiple short term objectives, yep, looks like it could be a nice short war. The key is to keep it short so that Operation Puddle Jump can proceed on schedule.

Ok I'm playing now. I've read and re-read the above posts and will come back here if I need advice.

It looks like eldar & I are here eagerly awaiting to help/analyze.

I'm certainly here, but I'm starting GOTM40.

I am still doing CotM9, think I may try 100K goal, as I am only recently out of the AA. Spaceship may be an option too, never did that in Civ3.

@Mab: Forgot to mention that you may want to send a worker across the channel to the cow with the galley that is almost done.

Houston we have a problem!

Here's my turn log so far:
Turn 0 (750BC)

Move troops as suggested earlier. Operation Cat & Mouse begins.

IBT
Chinese move opposite direction! Darn!
India and Japan sign a peace treaty.

Turn 1
Alesia builds archer -> catapult in 5
Cam builds archer -> archer in 5
Eboracum borders expand
Cataractonium founded -> catapult in 10
Workers complete projects and are now roading and mining Entremot + Rich to increase prod.
Pop rush catapult in Ebor
Everyone except Chinese and India still at war with Japan.

IBT
Chinese now have 3 greedy settlers with their feet on our land.
Mongols send a settler from west too.

Turn 2
Lug builds worker -> gallic in 6t
George builds galley -> archer in 5

Aaaagh! The French have done it again! Paris builds ToA! :mad: :mad: :mad:
Trondheim builds Great Lighthouse
Washington builds Mausoleum of Mausollos

I stopped play here to let you know. I think a Lib or market place is the way to go in Ent, but both are a huge waste of shields. Since research is low a lib isn't as important, BUT it gives culture and will double up quickly. A market gives more cash and happy folk... hmmm tough one!

Go for the Market, it's the most expensive build we have available.
As for the French... they are sure asking for it, once we work out where they darned well are!!

Are there no other wonders we could build? Just a question. Otherwise I'd say market too.

TGL due in 15t but all the others are building it.
I think market then lib after (maybe squeeze a GS in between)

Er... the Library. Which I'm certain we'll end up losing, but... ooh... 6 culture per turn?

I'd also tell China to leave. They might go ahead and declare. I'm thinking that we should have enough military but without looking at the save I'm not sure.

Switch to the GL, we might as well swing for it.

The Great Library??? I'd go ahead and try get China to declare then take out something fairly small with a GS to trigger our golden age.. That will reduce the # of turns til the GL is produced. How does that sound??

I thought we had a chance at GL, but I am not good at predicting these things. I also think that the far civs may be on steroids or somethin after reading the Maintenance thread.

Not sure GA will help our capital's production rate much.

TR you're a genius! I keep forgetting about the wonders of GAs.
I'll keep you posted

Mab

I know our illustrious leader isn't around, but I'm sure he'd jump up and down a bit like :gripe: <-- this if we hosed our GA at such an early age, just for the GL.

I also think that the far civs may be on steroids or somethin after reading the Maintenance thread.Yeah Joan should look like a female wrestler!!! :lol:

France is currently sounding very scary! I say we find her, and get a dogpile on her.

Well I have to go. The GS idea was just that an idea. I don't know if we even have a chance at the GL and OH MY would that suck if we did waste our GA on a wonder race that we lost..............
........
.....
.............

I don't know what to do.... Good luck. I have to leave work now. I'll check up on things tonight sometime.

Whoa, good thing I checked on here, China moved out but are now annoyed. GS are getting fat and lazy but are confined to barracks for the time being!

Looks like I may be too late, but I'd recommend against a GA just for the purpose of getting the GL - Entremont is already working a lot of 2-shield squares, so the benefit will be minimal. I also suspect that Karakorum will beat us to the GL - if we have money to spare, you might want to investigate it and find out for sure. But I'd go with a library in Ent and get back to building military.

I know our illustrious leader isn't around, but I'm sure he'd jump up and down a bit like :gripe: <-- this if we hosed our GA at such an early age, just for the GL.

Too bad about the French. C'est la vie, as they say.

Agree with eldar that the GA for the GL isn't worth it. Dump the shields into the most expensive cultural building you can and get Entremont back on its 7 turn GS/settler cycle. The GL is worth less than 6 cities with temples or three with libraries, remember.

Sorry I led us down the Primrose Path here.

And concur, we need to find the French and if nothing else get them into the war with Japan.

Got enough archers to take on China yet?

And remember, the more early culture buildings the better our cpt curve.

I have the day off today so was able to finish my turns.

Turn log:
Turn 0 (750BC)

Move troops as suggested earlier. Operation Cat & Mouse begins.

IBT
Chinese move opposite direction! Darn!
India and Japan sign a peace treaty.

Turn 1 730BC
Alesia builds archer -> catapult in 5
Cam builds archer -> archer in 5
Eboracum borders expand
Cataractonium founded -> catapult in 10
Workers complete projects and are now roading and mining Entremot + Rich to increase prod.
Pop rush catapult in Ebor
Everyone except Chinese and India still at war with Japan.

IBT
Chinese now have 3 greedy settlers with their feet on our land.
Yellow send a settler from west too.

Turn 2 710BC
Lug builds worker -> gallic in 6t
George builds galley -> archer in 5

Aaaagh! The French have done it again! Paris builds ToA!
Trondheim builds Great Lighthouse
Washington builds Mausoleum of Mausollos

After team consensus switch prod to library in Ent and demand chinese leave. They actually move!
Grrr! looks like the RNG is stacked well against us.

IBT
Chinese and Mongols run around near our borders but don't cross them.
China starts prod on Great Wall.

Turn 3 690BC
New plan, search and destroy French. new galley is sent looking for them as war with Japan is going nowhere fast.
Lapurdum founded next to pearls. Prod -> temple with intention of pop rushing.
Lots of roads/mines completed. Road network almost complete.

IBT
Mongols ask us to move.

Turn 4 670BC
Cost of C.o.L. suddenly drops. Due in 1t at +9gpt after adjustments. Turns out Hiawatha sold it to Ghandi but none of the other AI know it yet.
Pop rush temple in Burdigala. Change prod to temples in 2 more cities.
Northern curragh spots Viking elite warrior. We are up currency and they have construction.

Turn 5 650BC
Learn CoL, research Monarchy @30% for now.
Dyes hooked up at last! Worker effort now concentrated on getting incense.
Catapult built, send to Ebor for defensive watch. Chinese are getting a bit happy around our borders.
Trade Poly to China for Construction and 55gold. No other trades that I'm willing to enter into.

Enter Middle Ages.
Set research to Feudalism on min science as maxed out will take 23turns.

Turn 6 630BC
A few more units built. Start prod on a couple more cats and archers.
We're second in culture behind Japan. Might be able to flip the Mongol city next to the spices if we're really lucky.

Turn 7 610BC
Lugundum builds GS -> lib in 10t.
Move units to fortify northern towns, leaving a few archers in case Japan lands a few.
Decide to emphasize shields as food isn't a prob. Start construction of a new mine on the iron.

IBT
Mongols and Japan sign a peace treaty with only 2 turns left!

Turn 8 590BC
Temple built in Cam -> GS
All civs except China are in the MA. Haven't seen any barbs for ages so don't know if there was an uprising.
Still no sign of the French or the Viking homeland.

Turn 9 570BC
Borders expand. Alesia starts on a Lib.
Curragh spots American Settler. Make contact. They're annoyed (big surprise!)
We're up Con and Curr. and they have Monarchy. No trade possible.

Turn 10 550BC
Rich starts a barracks.
Nothing much of interest except the lux route is taking shape. I'm avoiding mountains where possible so it will be built quicker.
Chinese have plopped a few more towns in that'll need eliminating soon.

I think the chinese need teaching a lesson but wasn't organised enought to get troops together. We have 4 GS who will prob only get used in an emergency. Our military has gone from weak to average so we're almost there. We're still in alliances with 3 civs against Japan.

I've attached a couple of pics to show where the new civs are and our core.

EDIT::: nevermind. I didn't finish reading post. sorry about the shooting from the hip there.

MORE EDIT: DO NOT trade or research any optional goverment techs except communism. Once we get Fued, DO NOT revolt. we will have to go back to despotism due to the variant. We can only be despotism or communism. that's it. I'm writing this mainly to stick it in my head.

Took a quick look at the save. China may be a bigger problem for us now. With all those military units we have standing around we should put them to good use. I would switch Aged to a catapult. It is too late to pop rush temple in Cataract but a cat can be built there when it finishes. Do not build another barracks please. Change Rich to something else, prefer a cat.

Ok. I got it and will play tonight. any other suggestions other than the Piper's

Should I raise the research on Fued?

I was just looking at the graph on the results page and trying to figure out why after a great start everyone else is ahead of us in score....(I realize that this is a culture race not a score race)

Then it hit me. Population is part of the score. I wonder if the other teams are rushing things like we are. I saw in a previous gotm or sgotm that someone beat out another person by something like the equivelent of 1 library for 2 turns. I hope that they come up with the culture graph soon so we can see our REAL progress.

Do not build another barracks please. Change Rich to something else, prefer a cat.

Can I ask why a barracks isn't a good idea? Is it just the shields would be better used elsewhere or is it a gpt thing? I thought since Rich was getting productive and is near the border then a barracks would be useful.

I put research to min on feudalism since we're planning to go to war soon. Mono and engineering have less benefits when war is your goal, but I wasn't entirely sure so just did min research for a few turns. I would usually go straight for republic at this stage, but thanks to the variant it's not needed this time.

@Mab, good progress. Only suggestion I would make is a little more agressiveness in trading and diplomacy. For example, once CoL was known if we had the money and there were any possible buyer I would have bought it right away and traded it back out.

@TR,

Reset research to Monotheism at the max we can afford. We need bigger churches ASAP. Don't worry about spending down the treasury, the only use we have for it is troop upgrades and the next upgrade to MDI costs zero IIRC.

Attack China as soon as you can get organized to do so.

Do The Americans and Vikings know Japan? Invite them to the war if they do.

The other team's curves are steeper, but not by much, because they went to war early and often, if I know the players, and I think I do. We delayed it for good reasons, but the time has come.

Mono @ max we can afford, huh? does that mean go negative in gpt if we have cash reserves or do you just want as close to 0 gpt as I can get?

I saw your post on the maintenance thread. Does that mean that you were contemplating research on Republic for trading or trading for Monarchy?

Erm, at the risk of sounding like a yorkshire lass... CoL came onto the table 1 turn before we would have researched it anyway, I didn't want to waste all those turns of research and pay through the nose so decided to wait a turn.
Hope that didn't put us too far behind. The only available trades then were like 150g for a tech.... erm no thanks!!! :mischief:

@TR,

Max we can afford means go negative if you have the reserves to support it. Hewing close to 0gpt costs more in the long run as the beakers don't accumulate fast enough yet you spend the money anyway.

Entremont needs to be reset to its GS training camp/settler farm, BTW.

On the barracks in R-borough: open question to me as I haven't looked at the save. But maybe the empire is better off if the town builds galleys first.

Re the Mon/Rep thing: either or both, I just like to make sure all the allowable options are considered.

Erm, at the risk of sounding like a yorkshire lass...

No risk. Always kinda liked 'em meself. ;)


CoL came onto the table 1 turn before we would have researched it anyway, I didn't want to waste all those turns of research and pay through the nose so decided to wait a turn.
Hope that didn't put us too far behind. The only available trades then were like 150g for a tech.... erm no thanks!!! :mischief:

You do get discounted credit in the asking price for the beakers invested so it is always something worth investigating. And if you can get 150g from a couple of people that always helps.

And the only time I turn down a deal is when they offer a Territory Map for Fission :D

Looking over the posts, did we just build a library instead of the Great Library in Entremont?

Regarding a barracks in Richborough, DON'T build one! Each barracks cost 1gpt and we already have 5 in place. Building a barracks also cost 40 shields or TWO catapults. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE build more catapults. It is nearly impossible to get the higher kill ratios without at least a dozen of them.

--- MicroM recommendations (FWIW) ---
Alesia: Whip the library in two turns, 59 shields for 3 pop is a good trade.
Lug: Move off both trees to river grasslands for 5fpt/7spt. Move back after two turns.
Lug: Whip the library in two turns, 40 shields for 2 pop. (Or switch to GS now)
Rich: Switch to catapult, PLEASE. Did I say please? I meant pretty please.
Rich: After catapult, build worker at -2fpt/10spt, then back to catapults.
Cat: Needs worker for irrigation project
Gergovia: Finish galley, build catapult PLEASE.
Aged: Switch to catapult, PLEASE.
Aged: (OK, there is an alternative: switch to harbor and whip in 10, 5 if forest cut)
Camul: Steal trees from Alesia, which has other trees (on river) to work instead.
Ent: Move off two trees to the two river grasslands. Then back to settler/GS rotation.
Ebora/August: Change to 3fpt, corruption is too high for anything else.
Ebore/August: Switch to library, cut trees and whip when possible, (may switch to defend in a war emergency)

"Ebore/August: Switch to library, cut trees and whip when possible, (may switch to defend in a war emergency)"

Good call. Forests outside the core and the second shield is lost to waste are best used in new buildings.

It may be that the other teams have a steeper curve from an early GA, but I doubt it. We have managed to waste a few shields along the way.

May as well mention it again. The new galley should at least put a worker on the cow before wandering about.

Just took a look at the flip risk numbers, Hangchow needs to be added as a priority target.

Chengdu is still first, any catapults going to Hangchow must first go past Chengdu.
Shantung, Kaifeng and Chinan are secondary targets, but now that there are three of them it won't be a simple mop up operation, they have had a few turns to produce. On the bright side there is another China settler to provide slaves but it won't be a cakewalk anymore.

I think China needs to be cut back. Doing so now will mean a slight delay in attacking Japan but further delay will make it much more difficult. It may still be a short war, but probably more than 10 turns now that China has those extra cities in the south.

If TR wants to get in position and attack midway through his turn set I will try to do my best to finish the China war during my turns so that Eldar can get in position to attack Japan.

Ok great there is someone here. 3 turns into it and about to DoW on China. We only have an alliance left with the Iroquois on Japan. America doesn't even know them and Carthage bailed on us. Should I sign peace treaty with Japan before declaring on China?

Please anyone? I need to know....

@ Piper, I got your list but only after I started playing. I checked the forums @ 6EST and there were no new posts. I did most of it except for Lug. I didn't get that in time and Alesia I will whip next turn for 40 shields to finish the library.

For some reason China has decided to start moving warriors like 6 of them down to their southern cities. I wonder if the culture is getting to them?

No need for a peace treaty with Japan unless they are threatening us somehow.

And yes the culture is probably getting to the Chinese.

Ok I'm on turn 3 and I'm going after Chengdu with 7 archers, 2 GS, & 2 cats. The force is split up and I can take 4 archers & 1 GS after Chegdu and 3 archers, GS , & the 2 cats after hangchow. Or should I just get Hangchow after toppling chengdu?

Also, If I can get the two southern cities should I? Nanking has the horses just to the north of Hangchow. What is the priority?

Also raze Chengdu and settle with new settler out of Entremont?

I'd certainly go after the southern cities, if you have the forces to spare.
Again, if we can spare the Settler, raze and re-settle, but I'm not expecting flips as our culture is bigger than China's.

Sorry, I kept watching but didn't see the forum page flip. Chengdu does not need to be razed, but if you do then rebuild it 1 tile SE per plan on page 5. Need more specifics to give good advice. Secure what you take is a good motto. Take what can be secured. Split force only if both are capable of achieving objectives. Organize objectives to minimize time to completion. Don't worry about me, I can handle whatever you leave me with. Remember we want to keep it short, unless China doesn't wish it so.

Regarding the split, you can always attack with the first force and divert the second if that succeeds. Although the best use of the cats would be against the units on the hill (Chengdu).

Pre-turn 550BC switched to Mono @ 80% (need 20% lux until Entremont reduces pop) due in 28
r-borough switched to cat
Ageinum switched to cat
MM Lugdunum to work iron mountain to shave a turn off of library (due in 5 now)
move two archers, GS, & 2 cats out of Ebor to Chinese border near other archer
moving one GS from r-boro & 2 archers from Lugdunum to eastern chinese border
First target will be Chengdu
establish embassy with america for 72 G (still have 310 in bank & -19gpt) building temple only 2 cities though :confused:
T1 530BC - Entremont makes Market-> settler
Aged cat -> cat
more troop movements
T2 510C - Americans are building Hanging gardens
Gergovia galley -> library
T3 490BC - Japan & Carthage sign peace
Entemont settler -> GS
r-boro cat
raise sci to 90% now in 22
whip temple in lapurdum
Moved galley out of Chinese territory and did another quick scan of the border then DoW China
DEcide against it right now wait 1 more turn
T4 470BC - CAmulodunum GS-> GS
r-boro worker cat (re MM for growth)
lapurdum temple -> cat
whipped temple in Alesia
DoW on China. I'm glad I waited because a settler pair came out of Chengdu and Hangchow
Verulamium switched to GS
archer took out spear on mountain to relieve China from the burden of pay support for it and the settler
Decide to split the forces in 2 and go after Chengdu wi GS & 4 archers and Hangchow with 2 archers, 1 GS & 2 cats
T5 450BC - archer is attacked by warrior and becomes elite (fortify to heal)
Alesia library -> GS
Lugdunum library -> cat
Had to reload due to accidental power down...oops :blush:
Meet England (cautious) were up writing & math + all of the subsequent techs
GS takes out spear in Hangchow and GA starts
GS takes out spear in Chengdu and take city
I'm glad I split forces up b/c that was it. I installed new governor in Chengdu for now. With all of the chinese settlers runnning around I didn't want it resettled
Japan now has MM watch out for galleys
Changed some city tiles being worked due to GA.
Moved injured archer into Chengdu
T6 430BC - Chinese spear took back Chengdu
Here come the horses.....
stupid spear destroys the spice road near Chengdu
two cats were successful in Hangchow and archer took city from red-lined spear
GS took out horse & other archer took out warrior near hangchow
T7 410BC - horse got my catupult near chengdu...I think I can get it back though
Salamanca has the Great Library
Entremont GS-> settler
Lugdunum cat-> GS
r-boro cat -> cat
get cat back from china
bump lux up to 20% for Alesia
elite archer red-lines against a horse but no GL
move our slave road team to the forest near verulamium for safety and chopped it to reveal a bg
T8 390BC - budigala cat -> cat
Mongols created the Great wall in karakorum
Ratae Coritanorum founded in between lakes per pipers harp map
T9 370BC - Hangchow almost fell back only one GS, & 2 cats left
Entremont settler -> GS
our people want the Forbidden Palace
Camulodunum GS -> GS
r-boro cat -> cat
verulamium GS -> GS
Hangchow riots...stupid me The resistance must have ended citizen switched to scientist (cruel oppression/aggression against China)
Gergovia cat -> cat
Ebor cat -> cat
After taking those two cities I Mao would talk peace, He will give me all of his treasury and 5 cities (Chinan, Shantung, Anyang, Tatung, Tientsin), I take it since our objective in this war was to get China off of our back and gaining 7 cities in 3 turns + the one we just built isn't bad.
meet france She's up Eng. & Monarchy no deals on either
T10 350BC - Tolosa founded just below Entremont -> temple
switched r-boro to galley.
in the process of moving troops to east coast for operation Hibachi shrimp


We might want to switch Lugdunum to FP before enter is pressed on Pipers turns. I'm moving almost all of the troops to the eastern front to get ready to hop the Amazon. I also have a couple archers moving to the new cities acquired in the peace deal. There is a 4-pack of workers near Lugdunum that I was going to connect the spices and road to the new cities in the north. I think that that is it. Piper's getting his catapults. we have 11 and every town that alrady has a temple is building a cat except for our 5 barracks cities.

Here is the 350BC save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/Bede_SG006_BC0350_01.SAV).

western half
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sgotm_western_empire_350bc.jpg

eastern half
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sgotm_eastern_empire350bc.jpg

Roster:
Bede
Minute Man
Mab
Tubby Rower - just played
Pied Piper - up
eldar - on deck

Wow!! Nice going... 5 cities in a peace deal?!

Wow!! Nice going... 5 cities in a peace deal?!
Yeah I was surprised too. I guess that China just didn't think that it had the military to defend it's cities. I was surprised how easily those two cities fell. I only lost 2 archers in taking and defending them. I tried Kaifieng with a GS but he died from an archer attack before he was able to try to take the spear out of the city.

There were a ton of warriors running around and they all were moving up from the south to re-take hangchow. I didn't think that I had the force to defend it successfully and I took the deal. I hope I did the right thing...

Use our GA to build up the Gallics, ready to strike at China again when the 20 turns are up. We should be able to hit them with enough force to wipe them out. Pile cultural pressure on Kaifeng, and ready forces to take out the rest.

Alright, way to go TR. Too bad I have to leave soon for work. Will play tonight. Please leave any comments before I get back in 9 hours.

With any luck we should be able to flip Kaifeng as well as Ulaan. Eleven cats is close enough to a dozen, I may switch some builds to GS. Just realized Hangchow is on a lake, even if the AI missed all those river tiles.

Eldar is up after me, any preferences for landing point? At first glance I am thinking Yok is top objective so the hill south of it.

Izumo - snatch their Iron source ASAP, so land a Settler with the forces in the Forest next the Iron hill. Smaller sub-force by Yoko, enough to deal with it and Nagoya.

OR (more audacious...) smack a Settler down on one of the Forests near Matsuyama, and ferry troops in that way.

I like the settler at Matsuyama tactic then just roll down the coast.

Unfortunately their main source of Iron is next to their capital. A major objective, but not for my turn set. I would hate to be bottled up by Mats but that was my alternate plan.

What happened to the attachments. Did they clean out Uploads9 already?

EDIT:: they're back. Must have been a little glich somewher in the line...

I'm not sure about the tactics on the D-day landing.

What about the FP in Lugdunum? If so it should be switched before piper starts since a GS will be built next turn

What about a settler dump by IZumo instead of Matsuyama. We could settle in out own territory and steal the iron. Then if we could defend that city we could start a push for Tokyo where their main source of iron is.

Is it worth it to get more MA. We will have to reduce science in 4 turns to keep from going bankrupt so keep an eye on it to see when it's best to reduce the slider to still get Mono as soon as we can.

Wow! Nice going there TR! :D You make it look so easy. I think I might replay from my last save and recreate everything you did just for the experience. I'm in awe!
I wonder what our score graph looks like now???
*goes to check*

Got it and have started, will take at least half hour to formulate a plan to win the peace. Serious flip risk everywhere. Still torn about invasion point but leaning north even with flip risk at Tolosa. Last chance for input.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SG6tb150bc.jpg
Ghandi wants 400g for MA against Japan, Carthage just over 200g, Mongols only 200g.
Carthage will pay 72g for RoP, will just cover our research finance gap. Can also get 22g from Mongols but decline.

Rich: growth seriously hampered by mines instead of irrigation. GA wasted here.
Rich: change to catapult in 1 turn, then do worker, get growth back online.
Camul: switch to spearman, 2 cost the same as 1 GS. We have none.
Several troop movements to deal with flip potential.

IBT:
India/Japan MA
Alesia: GS>GS
Camul: spearman>GS
Rich: cat>worker (growth problems)
Cat: worker>library

330: 1
3 in Hangchow, 2 in Chengdu
Switch Verul to spearman
Troop adjust

IBT:
Rich: worker>galley
Japan building HG

310: 2
Drop 4 units on north spur. Logistics dictate this is area of main invasion force.
Japan has swordsman units.
Recon Yoko hill.
Switch Burd/Lap to library in effort to flip Ulaan.
Hate to see 12 shields go to waste in Ent. Change to colosseum with minimal waste.

IBT:
China blocks our road.
Verul: Spearman>spearman
Indians/Vikings building HG

290: 3
Recon force finds Tokyo

IBT:
Recon/Distraction force attacked, kills two swords, but falls to sword and archer.
English are building HG.

270: 4
Advance main force.

IBT:
Camul: GS>GS
Mongols build Darhan on our culture border. Stealing our trees.

250: 5
Finally two units in Chinan.
Attack Mats, 3 cats fail to hit, vet archer loses to a 2hp spear.
Yet we take it with one promotion.

IBT:
Japan loses a sword attacking GS in forest.
Alesia: GS>spear
Rich: galley>settler
Verul: spear>spear

230: 6
Lose GS attacking sword, had it won but lost 3hp in a row.
hook up spices.

IBT:
Izumo attacks, they lose 1 sword and we retreat 1 GS.
Learn Mono, start Feud
Mats resistance ends

210: 7
Hook up Incense
Kill 2 spears in Izumo but third attack retreats.
Something wrong with map, cant irrigate up to Cataract.
Sign RoP with Mongols for 32g to finance research

IBT:
Cat stack kills sword, but lose two GS and cat left from failed attack on Izumo
Ent: colosseum>GS
Alesia: spear>worker (with growth)
Gerg: library>settler
Mats riots (moved MP out last turn)
Tolosa: temple>library

190: 8
Once again I am one attack short of taking Izumo, kill two swords and leave a horseman.
Rush temple in Hangchow

IBT:
China troops are headed west somewhere
Cat stack kills sword and horse
Alesia: worker>GS
Camul: GS>GS
Chengdu: temple>lib
Verul: spear>GS
Hang: temple>lib

170:9
Take Izumo, kill surrounding units except redlined sword kills a GS
Trade Phil to England for worker/8g

IBT:
America/India MA
Iroquois just got Eng and a worker to trade, next player may want to make a deal
Kill horse attacking across river, retreats when Sword joins in.

150: 10
Kill three swordsmen, there is more I forgot to record I am sure.
Only deal with Japan is 21g/8gpt
Aged can be whipped

Troops are a little beat up and could us a turn of healing.

Looks good, but that looks like rather a large stack of Jap units next to Izumo!

[Edit] Lo and behold the reason I use the 'Color Blind Help' option - they're ours! :blush:

Okay, both the Chinese cities with specialists can now switch to working tiles as they citizens are Happy. For Tsientsin, this is especially important as it means 2fpt growth. The othe can only get 1fpt growth for now.

Japan looks hosed. I wouldn't sign peace until we've taken Kyoto - then he'll bleed.

I only left a token force in the city to suppress the revolt. The flip risk is too high at this point. Feel free to change the production builds where needed. Did slip a little on the city review at the end. Having 4 luxuries is a big step up from only 3.

Just as a reminder, our cathedrals are at reduced cost so we should build as many as we can quickly, don't forget the whip option. Also a harbor on both sides of the channel would be a good idea.

One thing to remember, especially as we have 4 Luxes so happiness isn't so big an issue. This came up in the 100K game I played recently, and is worth re-iterating here.

Libraries and Cathedrals both cost 80 shields, both give 3 culture per turn, BUT Libraries only cost 1gpt maintenance. So Libraries should take precedence over Cathedrals, always.

Looking very, very good. Don't see any reason to end the war with Japan 'till they are dead.

Roster:
eldar - up
Bede
Minute Man
Mab
Tubby Rower
Pied Piper

I have it, I'll play tomorrow.

Other notes:

FP will be finished in 1 turn in Lug.
Mats actually accrued some shields when I had a unit in there with 10% lux.
Removing either one makes it unproductive.
As for next objectives, pretty much anything goes but I was leaning towards taking out Yoko.
Cats and spears to the forest, then bombard on following turn and send in the GS along the road and across the river to attack.
Pretty nice combo, the only problem is Tokyo, both cultural and counter attack. Japan has been bled fairly well but is still producing units, and I did take more losses than I usually like to see. I did push the timetable but I wanted to secure a beachhead. Yoko would be the most efficient for unit transfers across the channel.

Finished playing my turns, wasn't quite as straightforward as imagined because there was a little bit of a dust-up over Matsu with Gandhi.

Still, we now:
- Have captured Yokohama;
- Are at war with a few more Civs, including France, England, and Scandinavia.
- Can build no more GSs as we have learned Feudalism :(
- Oh, and we got one of these:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Vercingetorix.jpg

:dance: So we now have a shiny GS Army, and the Heroic Epic is being penned in Entremont.

Turn log:
0 150 Check trades. Mono will get us Eng+Monarchy+2g from Iros, so I take it. Trade around Monarchy first… Carthage give us 153g for it. China 37g. Everyone else is either too broke, or too backwards, or we are at war with. America won't talk, Japan is still huge, India wants Mono for peace!

IT: Ent GS->GS, Lug FP->GS, Gergovia Set->Rax. 4 Indian units appear near Matsu, I will reinforce.

1 130 Pah, dodgy keying lost my notes. Killed some units.

IT: Mongol/Japan MA vs Iros.

2 110 Kill 3 Jap units, move forces to re-inforce Matsu. I think India will capture it next turn, though - in which case it will get razed.

IT: India capture Matsu, killing a GS and an Archer. Forces immediately ready to take it back. Alesia GS->GS. Camul GS->GS. Verul Spear->Lib. Shantung Temple->Worker. Ratae Temple->Warrior.

3 90 Matsu re-captued. Kill a Jap Sword next to Entremont. Taxman hired in Rich to prevent riot, still gets it Cath in 2.

IT: America/France MA. Mongols ask for Alliance vs Iros, I decline. Japs captured some of our Cats… oops. Ent GS->GS. Lug GS->GS. Rich Cath (chop)->Galley. Aged Harbour->Lib.

4 70 Abandon plans for Yoko for now, have to deal with Indians near Matsu. Re-capture Cats. Whip Lib in August. Two GSs fail to scratch an Indian Sword, and both die. And a finger slip lands one of our Curraghs in Sea rather than Coast. Ouch….

IT: India kills a GS and captures a Cat. England/France MA. Japan kill another GS. August Lib->Cath.

5 50 Move troops into/round Matsu. It won't fall next turn and there are enough forces for a decisive counter attack. Keep Izumo garrisoned, though. Switching Ratae's Taxman for a Scientist lets the Sci rate drop and still get Feud in 2.

IT: Indian forces withdraw, though they kill a GS in Matsu. Japan knocks, no dealing. Japan lands another Sword by Ent. GA ends :( Gergovia Rax->GS. Shantung Worker->Lib.

6 30 Attack redlined Indian Sword by Mats, and get our first MGL, Vercingetorix! Immediate GS Army formed. Have to use the two Warriors in Tolosa to deal with the Jap Sword, first one dies but the Sword is redlined, second one takes it out. Lindum founded. Sci goes right down to 20%, Feud in 1.

IT: Feud->Chiv. WE CAN NO LONGER BUILD GSs - all builds auto-switched to MedInf. Alesia MedInf->MedInf. Lug MedInf->Pike. Camul MedInf->Cath. Ratae Warrior->Lib. Vikings complete HG.

7 10 Lose a full-health Elite GS attacking a reg Sword on grassland. Stupid RNG. Use the Army to clean up a couple of Jap units, switch Ent to HE. Whip Chinan Temple. Sci up to 70%, Chiv in 16 @ +1gpt.

IT: Burd Lib->Worker. Chinan Temple->Lib.

8 AD 10 Move troops into position by Yoko, including the Army. Whip Ebor Lib.

IT: America/Viking MA. Rich Galley->MedInf. Ebor Lib->Worker.

9 30 America want Mono for peace, I decline. Yoko captured, an Archer is promoted. Deal with the Jap Galley before it can land another unit - lose 1 Galley, second one sinks it and promotes. Whip Lib in Catar (2 chops assisted this).

IT: Jap units mass by Yoko. Lug Pike->MedInf. Catar Lib->Harbour.

10 50 Take out the Jap swords by Yoko. Troops covered by Army are moving on Tokyo. I don't know where the Indian troops went, but they may be going overland to us? Or they have another war we don't know about. Building Caths 1-at-a-time in the Core, otheriwse keeping up with units.

The Temple in Izumo is due next turn, suggest we then get a Rax on that side of the pond and start upgrading Cats to Trebs. Other than that my intentions should be clear, though there are 3 injured GSs by Yoko. Look after them, they're the only ones we have left and we can't get any more :(

>>> THE SAVE <<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/Bede_SG006_AD0050_01.SAV)

Neil :cool:

Looks like the Gallics served their purpose. We got any horses?

Got it.

Post plan later.

No geegees 'til we take Tokyo and get a Harbour on the Jap coast.

I knew there was something I forgot to say, and now I remember.

Just north of India is the edge of a red culture border that is just barely visible. Was sending the second curragh from the south up to search for another civ there.

When I selected the next tech during my turn set I wasn't sure if it should be Theology or Feud. Guess I should have done Theo, but was under the impression we didn't want Education right away and I know how much the AI values govt techs.

We should probably conserve those last three GS for the next army.

Oh, the red borders are Babylon. I didn't realise we hadn't met them. We have every contact now, in that case.

Took a look at flip risk numbers. Can take a unit from Changdu and Shantung plus 1 more and secure Tatung now.

Taking Tokyo should reduce some of our flip risk over there and signal the beginning of the end for Japan.

Looking very good to me, how the other teams are doing so well is beyond me. Should be interesting reading the forums when we are done.

Did I miss something? When did we get into a war with Ghandi?
Congrats on the GL... finally a bit of luck!

Gandhi signed an MA with Japan sometime during PP's turns, as did America. Though Gandhi's forces suddenly turned tail and ran, without so much as letting me gas them. I think he has home front issues we don't know about.

America, England, Scandinavia, are so far away I'm not fussed about being at war with 'em.

Looks like the dog-pile has turned around.

What is see is just staying the course with Japan and buils some defense in the west.

Keep chopping the trees in the high waste towns and applying the whip as needed.

Is that the plan for your turns, or just general advice for the rest of the team?

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/Bede_SG006_AD0250_01.SAV)

It took a while to heal and re-organize on the Japanese side of the Amazon.

All the catapults and the Army and the healthy GS's and some Maces are at the gates of Kyoto. Took the last town on the coast and razed Tokyo. Two archers died at the gate sof TOkyo. Japanese swords and archers are all regulars and just beat themselves to death against the towns, inflicting minor casualties but no losses.

Bought my way out of war with India and England with technology but got their treasuries in the bargain.

I razed Tokyo because I did not want to deal with garrisons and flip chances and I wanted the slaves to chop some forests for a barracks at Izumo and a harbor on the coast(the towns are not on water so the forest shields are not of much use) There is a settler and garrision due out of Tolosa and galleys waiting to deliver them to Izumo on the first turn. Build a town, on the river, claiming the horses.

As the opportunities come up buy your way out of war with everybody but the Japanese. We should have enough of a force to finish him off if we take our time, raze instead of garrison the towns, keep the forces together and only move when healthy but keep moving. Unless we hit a major Japanese counter attack any new military should go to the Sino-Mongolian borders. We need to take them apart before they get too pushy with Keshiks and Riders.

The Big Event of 210AD:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SGOTM6Bede210AD.jpg



Our culture curve is nearing the vertical BTW. The team closest to us has most likely been at war since Iron Working and built the ToA. To overcome that we will just have to keep on as we have, whipping culture when we can and capturing and settling new lands.

Roster:
Minute Man - up
Mab - on deck
Tubby Rower
Pied Piper
eldar
Bede

Have you seen Team barbslingers graph? They had our 1000BC culture @ 1500BC. Unless they screw up or start losing cities to an AI then I doubt that we could catch that. I've never won by culture so I'm not sure of all of the intracacies involved with the culture build up.

Alright MM, it looks like you'll be preparing for a Mogol war. Good luck and remember to take your time with the Japanese towns. Don't rush things too much but don't dilly dally either. We need to start planting cities over in the old Japanese territory. Also a reminder. First build is temple. We might want to start buiding libraries & cathedrals in some of the establised cities one at a time that don't already have them.

Okay - Kyoto. It's on a hill, it's size 12, and our forces are at present attacking across a river. Move them 1N before going in, because it's tough enough as it is. I'd much rather have Trebs than Cats there too, but it wasn't likely to happen :(

OK, got it. Will try to get this played by the end of the day.

If I should happen to get an army, what should I do with it? Put our three Gallics in it, fill it with MDI's, or hang onto it until we can build knights? Gallics seems best to me, but I'm not entirely sure.

Okay - Kyoto. It's on a hill, it's size 12, and our forces are at present attacking across a river. Move them 1N before going in, because it's tough enough as it is. I'd much rather have Trebs than Cats there too, but it wasn't likely to happen :(

Yeah, I see that. Doesn't look like fun. I think it might be better to move E onto the mountain, though.

Is it worth maybe hanging onto a city (though preferably one smaller than Kyoto) for a turn or two to upgrade the cats, then abandoning it and moving on?

Yeah, I see that. Doesn't look like fun. I think it might be better to move E onto the mountain, though.

Double-check that the Mountain won't still leave us attacking across the river. If it does, don't go there - it doesn't help us offensively, and the Japs WILL NOT attack anything stacked under the Army - so it doesn't matter what terrain the stack's on. Oh, and unless it's roaded, the Cats won't go up the mountain anyway.

Oh, and unless it's roaded, the Cats won't go up the mountain anyway.

Whoops, you're right. I'm not used to needing to haul cats around, so I didn't even think about that. North it is, then.

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/Bede_SG006_AD0350_01.SAV)

IHT - 250 AD

We really need a harbor somewhere on the other side of the Amazon (especially once we get the horses hooked up). Nagoya is building one, but that'll take forever, and we don't have enough workers to do much forest chopping there yet. Izumo is the only city that can build one any time soon, so change it to harbor. Change Richborough to a market, as it will riot next time it grows (and we need more markets anyway). Everything else looks good.

Scandinavia and France will accept peace for 20 gold each. Sounds reasonable to me. America had originally wanted more, but after the other two treaties are signed, he's actually willing to pay 40 gold for peace. So we are now only at war with Japan.

1 - 260 AD

Kaifeng has a border expansion, which cuts the road to Augustodorum. This town definitely has to go when we attack China.

Move our attack force north so we don't have to attack Kyoto from across the river.

2 - 270 AD

Chivalry comes in. And with the founding of Nemausus, we now have horses, but we need a harbor to really be able to use them. Babylon has Invention, but won't trade it even for Chivalry and a large pile of gold. So research set to Invention.

Kyoto falls with no casualties, but our army is moderately damaged. Will need a couple of turns to heal.

3 - 280 AD

Yokohama is threatening to riot at size 2? Ouch. We really need a harbor. It would be a big waste to whip it in Izumo right now, though - need to wait three more turns.

5 - 300 AD

Our expanding culture borders pop the goody hut on that tiny island to our west, and, amusingly, disturb some barbarians, who will probably spend the next thousand years running in circles around the island.

We've been having issues with the occasional city threatening to riot, which I've avoided by shuffling MP's around, but we're running out of troops for MP duty (and we need them at the front lines anyway). So raise lux to 10%.

Our army is finally healed from the battle of Kyoto. Not entirely sure whether it would be better to head north or south, but decide to go south since all of Japan's visible resources (horses, iron, and furs) are that direction. So start marching on Nagasaki.

6 - 310 AD

Hiawatha has Invention now and is much more reasonable than Hammurabi. Send him Chivalry for Invention + 15 gold. Discover that Babylon already has Gunpowder, which of course he won't trade us. He will, however, give us 76 gold + 26 gpt for Chivalry, so sell him that.

7 - 320 AD

The harbor in Izumo is finished, bringing horses to the mainland. Lots of military builds changed to knights.

Nagasaki falls easily. Capture one trebuchet.

Babylon has Theology now. I think we're going to have to do something about Hammurabi sooner or later.

10 - 350 AD

The Japanese city south of Nagasaki (whose name has already slipped my mind) is razed.


Notes:

The Japan campaign is going slowly, but I did manage to raze three more cities. Hopefully it should be picking up speed, as the last two cities were really easy to take. Recommend heading east next and taking the horses, iron, and furs.

There's an unmoved settler (and some garrison troops) in Nemausus, which should probably be sent to found a city in the empty space to the southeast, but I'll leave the decision on where up to the next player.

I didn't manage to accumulate much military in the west, but our first knights just rolled off the assembly line, so hopefully that will be changing soon. If we do attack China next, send lots of force Kaifeng - during my turns at least four spears moved into the city (in addition to all the troops milling around outside the city).

Roster:

Roster:

Mab - up
Tubby Rower - on deck
Pied Piper
eldar
Bede
Minute Man

Progress continues.

With Kyoto out of the way we can probably keep the remaining Japanese cities without incurring major flip risk. Just be careful about garrisons. Use the captured Japanese towns as settler sources for the east but whip the temple as soon as the resistance ends.

And the time has come to rough up the Chinese again, starting with Kaifeng.

This is my got it. I will play and post tomorrow so if you have any pointers or changes then please let me know.

Good turns MM. I'll probably spend a few turns getting ready for the China offensive. Is the plan still to drag everyone into a dogpile against them?

It looks like the Japanese go another city right next to the old Kyoto iron. Which means that it was auto-hooked up. There is also another iron source for the Japs over by Nara. Not sure if that one is hooked up though. Nara would also give up furs!!

@Mab:

No need to create a Chinese dog-pile as the other guys would need to come through our lands to get them.

If I rememeber the map the Japanese eastern reaches butt up against the Iroquois, while the Iro have the Mongols to their east.

It might not hurt to have the Mongols fighting the Iro if only to use the Mongols as shield against Hiawatha while we harry the Chinese in to the sea, rather than having the Great Khan harrassing our western marches.

I've played 3 turns so far. It's going slowly against the Japs but there have been no casualties yet. When will they learn that a spearman is not a good offensive unit??!

I have a job interview soon so will continue later. Wish me luck!

Good luck with the interview.

re: game, take your time with the Japanese. Don't rush into battle with beaten up troops.

Sorry guys, I've been really busy today (I think the interview went well :rolleyes:) and haven't had chance to finish my turns. It's top of my priority list for tomo. Expect a full update and the save within 24 hrs.

Playing now, I got the job BTW! :dance: :bounce: :banana:
I apologise for the overuse of smilies, but they sure do make the point!

Congrats Mab!! Now to if you figure out how to play civ at work let me know. ;)

Easy... work from home! :crazyeye:

Ok heres the >>>>SAVE<<<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/Bede_SG006_AD0450_01.SAV)

Turn log:

350AD Turn 0

Send settler and MI to ruins of Jap city on coast.
MM entremot to grow faster but still make knight next turn. MM a couple more cities to max growth but keep prod the same.
Examine all advisors, after Japan and China we should think about cutting the babs down to size. They are cultural leaders.
Take out the 2 redlined spears hoping for a promotion but nevermind.

340AD Turn 1
knight built in Entremot. -> knight
Watch the chinese move around. Kaifeng is now at pop1 (rushed something??)
Temple built in "city on former Jap lands" -> knight in 60t (but will grow fast so should come down)
Send knights to gather near Kaifeng.
Army in position next to Fukushima, it'll be gone next turn (prob autorazed)
Calculated we're doing 52 cpt at the moment. At current values we'll reach 100k in 1825 turns! eep! Still our culture graph is way steeper than all the other teams.

370AD Turn 2
Isca founded ->temple in 30t
Attack and autoraze Fukushima. No damage, no promo.

380AD Turn 3
Send galley to Rich to pick up settler due in 3t
Take out a couple of Jap stragglers and send knights to outskirts of Kaifeng (now have 4 there)
Capture Nara -> temple. Send liberated Jap worker to connect city so we have furs.
Indian settler/spear is looking greedily at former Japanese lands
Decide to build embassy with Babs for future *diplomatic* relations. Costs 122 gold. Prod=18spt. Knights templar in 4t. 7 muskets. Zero growth, size 12 metro.
Something wierd, looks like the Babs only have 3 cities???
Workers complete tasks and are sent to build new roads (esp to 2nd spices for trading ops)
Check avail trades, no deals possible at the moment. We don't seem to have many friends [evil]

390AD Turn 4
Upgrade curragh to galley
Vet GS attacks redlined Jap (reg) spear and loses. WTF???
Send army and cats towards homeland so they can whoop some chinese ass!

400AD
Oops forgot to take notes. Nothing much happened.

410AD
Troops kicked out of india (next to former Jap horses) Send workers back to complete trade route for furs.

420AD Turn 7
Babylon completes Knights Templar
Ferry some slaves back to homeland
Workers complete indian furs road
Decide to DOW on Chinese after checking for units in ther territory etc

Vet knight attacks vet archer. Win, lose 1hp. Promoted to elite.
Capture 2 chinese workers and kill a couple of warriors/archers around Kaifeng.

IBT
Iroquois declare war on Vikings
India demands we move our workers. Ok cos they've built the road!

430AD Turn 8
Take out 3 spears in Kaifeng, no losses but one knight is redlined.
Knock lux tax down to zero as now have new lux. Keep an eye on Alesia as it will riot when it grows.
Now making +7gpt instead of -7gpt. :)

440AD Turn 9
Chinese counter attack begins but they're not in range yet. Looks like Horsemen not riders!
Catapults do well against Osaka, soften it nicely and we take it with no casualties.
Vet knight attacks reg Chinese spear, promoted to elite -2hp.
Couple more promos with no casualties and there's only a reg archer left. Only unit that hasn't attacked is a redlined Knight. Decide the risk is worth it and actually take Kaifeng. :D
6 workers added to the ranks!

IBT
Babs start Sistine Chapel
Lose 2 workers to chinese :mad:

450AD Turn 10
Misclick and separate army from cats. oops. :blush: hopefully Japan won't be able to take out the 2 MI guarding them.
Ferry a couple more workers about.
There's a settler in a harbour town on old Japanese lands ready to fill in any gaps.
Osaka is still in resistance, but I'm starving it down.
Forgot that "go-to" orders shouldn't be done on last turn. There's 2 knights heading for northern border towns and a galley ferrying workers across the amazon.
No more militrary victories or losses this turn. Hopefully next player will be able to remove the oriental nuisances!
Gunpowder in 1 turn at 10% (+115gpt) 6 turns with single scientist.

Summary
We have largest land area and population, Babs are nearest rivals.
Our overall culture is fast approaching babs, now at ~157cpt. (100 more than when I started my turns! Go to love the age doubling thing!)
Score=1267
France=1348 and babs=1338. (Japan=1087)
I think we gained 3 cities and razed one during these turns. Army is all powerful!

Ok I got it and am going to play unless I have serious concerns. My main goal without looking at the save is to either wipe out or reduce Japan & China to OCC.

My family is coming to visit this weekend and I won't be able to play until Monday night if I don't play now so here I go. If anything does not feel right I'll stop and come back here and post a partial turnset for the next player to continue.

I might suggest get out your whip. And use short-whips wherever you can.

T0 - there is only one reason a spear is on our incense so take out him out with a knight before he pillages it.
switch Entremont to Cathedral and whip 2 citizens for 38 shields
whip 1 cit. in Chinan to complete Library 18 turns earlier
switched a tax collector in Osaka to scientist to keep 1 turn on gunpowder@ 10%

t1 - Gunpowder in
trade Gunpowder, 1gpt, 14g to Vikings for Theology
Chemistry @ 80% (17 turns)
entremont cathedral -> knight
Osakas resistance ends
Camulodunum knight -> knight
Chinan library -> Cath

t2 - chengdo treb -> treb
Tolosa settler -> cathedral
change cit in Augustodurum to scientist to prevent riots
Segusio founded on old Japanese river

t3 - Tientsin was razed by the Chinese
baby. & france signed peace
Japan wants peace...no way
Lugdunum knight -> knight
Aged library -> cath
Ratae C. cath -> treb
alesia switched to cath (in 2)
stack of 3 swords going to Osaka. I hope that th MDI can hold

I lost a turn somewhere....

t5 - that stack of 3 swords is now 10!!!
Alesia cath -> settler
Rutupiae founded on western edge of our core post-japanese cities
took Nanking with one knight (I didn't realize that there were knights in Hangchow)

t6 - lots of Indian forces headed south
Georgovia knight -> knight
Augustodurum cath -> settler
Being scared of the Indian stack moving south and the Japanese forces headed toward our cities I decide on the following deal
Alliance with India against Japan for Theology
rush temple in Nanking (killed two Chinese cit. but since we were going to starve them anyway...)

t7 - Carthage & Iroquois MA against Vikings
Jap swords move north whew
Entremont knight -> knight
Nanking temple -> library
Nagoya library -> cath

t8 - Indians declared war on us!!!???
They razed an undefended Segusio which I founded earlier in the turnset...
Alesia settler -> knight
Nara riots
Verulamium knight -> knight
take Toyama

t9 - I see war elephants running around
SON OF A ...!! Chinese razed Tatung
Lugdunum knight -> knight
Camulodunum knight -> knight
Chengdu treb -> treb
Burdigala knight -> knight
Ratae c. treb -> treb
French are building Sistines and Leos
Captured Canton but left undefended to defend wounded knight and treb
one or two away from taking Edo
Moving GS army to New Madras (Indian town)

t10 - Chinese re-take Canton (no surprise)
Glanum temple -> library
Carthage is building Leos
take Edo
take New Madras
rush temple in Kaifeng.
Mongols advanced on Kaifeng last turn and I moved a warrior and archer in it to prevent another unnecessary DoW on us
Monguntiacum founded just outside of Mongol city in our boundries


trades:
China peace for New shanghai
Japan peace for Ise & Hackodate (2 most southern cities)
India won't talk
Carthage MA against India for horses (or iron) (or 2 lux)
Mongols MA against India for furs (or a tech)

Save from 550AD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=83144&stc=1) Could someone submit it for me. I couldn't get it to work

Screenies coming too

Roster:

Pied Piper - up
eldar - on deck
Bede
Minute Man
Mab
Tubby Rower

I forgot to change the newly acquired cities to temples. Could you please check the towns in old Japan to make sure that they are building culture? Thanks.

OK, will play tonight, took a look at the save, should I play it or the pull down the official one off the download page?

Would like to get some consensus on Japan, I can get two cities (Ise and Sapporo) and the Republic tech for peace. Would only like to be at war with India and China. Also America has some forces near Old Japan and may be attacking us soon.

Did we want to try to build a wonder at all? I don't see a good place to start one.

Opinions?

Don't need any wonders.

We need allies more than we need peace. We can buy America into the war with India and get Chemistry for lots of money (gpt). Then get Iroquois into the war with Japan for Chemistry. That should buy us a breather on the Eastern Front while we finish off the Chinese.

Carthage and the Mongols do not appear to be in the best position to help us out, Iroquois and Amaerica are far better placed.

Once the Eastern forces have healed up a little more we can continue the move on Japan and India.

I really don't like the idea of half-finished wars as we only have to go back and do it again later.

I don't much favor half finished wars thing either, but I really do hate the two front war thing against more than two civs at a time. I am also a huge fan of "Territorial Integrity" and gaining those two southern cities from Japan will shorten our borders and save quite a few turns of troop movements. At least we don't have to worry about war weariness.

There is also a very serious finance issue, what are our research goals, short and long term? I imagine getting to Communism is top priority long term but how do we get there? Any suggestions?

Judging from what I saw in the save we have hit the wall on self-research for the moment. (despot food production limits our commercial potential). There are a couple of brokering oppotunities to be had for Chemistry and we do have a big enough income to do some serious buying. (We may even want to buy Printing and sell maps around).

On the research path I would prefer sticking to the bottom half of the tree for now. Buying the techs and trading them out for the upper branch.

On the two front issue: allying with Ameica and Iro should turn this into one front active, the second much less so while the other guys do some fighting and dying for us.

The only problem with this strategy is that it is at least 8 turns before we get Chemistry and there is no way to get them on board sooner. The only option is to trade two extra luxury to Carthage for MA against India or give them Horses for MA against India and Japan, but I don't think we need them taking Japan cities, especially since Japan has that luxury at Grand River.

Sad to say but selling our soul for Printing is not a viable option. Everyone with money already has it, and those that don't have it also don't have other techs they can't pay us for either.

We can buy America into the war with India and get Chemistry for lots of money (gpt).

Try it and see if it works. Then, how about Iroquois vs India?

And there is always cash to be made selling maps (especially to the folks who don't know how to print), even if it's only a couple of gold per turn, but with all the nations on the map that is not to be sneezed at.

Iroquois vs India will make India stronger - the Iros were pretty badly beaten up by the Japs during that little tete-a-tete.

Still working on the turn set but have some good news.
Got Chemistry for less than 60 gold and...
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SG6PP3Ulaan.jpg

How did we get into a war with the Mongols? Good job on Chemistry....

Get Chem from America for 5g/54gpt
Get Edu/MA from Iro for Chem
Get PP/3gpt from Scan for Chem
Get MA from Mongols for furs/1g
Get MA from America for RoP/13g/30gpt
Get 1gpt from Joan for Comm
Get MA from Babs for RoP/24gpt

Rush cath in Shantung
Rush temple in Osaka/Nara
switch Edo/Toyama/NewMadras to temple
Switch Nema/Cata to cath (no barracks)
Switch Yoko to knight (barracks)
Switch Lapur to cath and rush in 2 turns
Switch Gerg/Lugud to MDI then settler
Switch Alesia/Camul/Ratae to settler
Rush Ebor Knight
Rush August settler
Various assorted troop movements
Do you think they messed with the culture needed to flip cities?

IBT:
America is still moving archers our way.
Mongols declare on us, even with them getting furs from us. Warrior survives sneak attack.
China fleets retreat north (probably since I blocked the channel with galley from Entr.)
Osaka: temple>cath
Alesia: settler>knight
Edo resistance ends
Nara: temple>cath
Gerg: MDI>settler
August: settler>barracks
Ebora: knight>knight
Shangtung: cath>harbor
Kaifeng: Temple>barracks

560: 1
Kill two China units and decide to make peace for two cities.
Many reasons, saving an isolated stack of 5 slaves, treb and 2/5 knight from the failed Canton campaign chief among them.
Guess we should have razed it. Convert the cities to 6gpt with tax collection to reduce negative spending.
Rush knight in Verul, move workers out of danger zone to Mongu, move in pike/MDI next to Ulaan
Army kills WE and loses 1hp.
Since Mongols don't want furs then Carthage shall have them for MA against Mongols,
but we must spice up the deal a little, with spices. Hannibal also gives 17g and we have a deal.

IBT:
Surprise, Surprise, Americans declare war on us. Good thing I moved that knight into Edo, now it is elite.
Almost dead to be sure, but to survive 4 archers attacking across the river... the other stack turns and runs north.
China, objects to war machines left behind, so I click on what about RoP? and presto, non negotiable RoP.
Ent: knight>kanigit
Lug: MDI>settler
Camul: settler>knight
Rich: knight>settler
Verul: knight>knight
Yoko: knight>library
Mats: cath>library
Eridu completes Leonardo's and Everyone is building the Sistine Chapel

570: 2
Carthage moved worker to mountain next to New Delhi? That was to be my assault point for next turns attack, Delay 1 turn.
Just got a 67gpt relief of payments to America, WooHoo! Actually only paid 59 gold for Chemistry! Still 40% research is max, keep at zero.
Kill two pikes in Ulaan, third knight attack fails but knight sanely disengages. MDI moved in last turn assaults damaged pike and... its ours!
Take a gamble and abandon August to defend the Incense from two swords.
Rush temple in Isca, MDI in August, cath in Aged/Catar/Lapur, library in Nema.

IBT:
Hannibal, ever the polite diplomat, kindly asks over dinner to Ally against the Vikings. With those longships lurking to the north? No way.
I skillfully divert the conversation to the most backward civ on the planet and sell him contact with the English for 13g/2gpt.
Assault on incense kills spearman but MDI holds, Mongols move in two more swords and a spear.
Isca: temple>library
August: MDI>barracks
Aged/Catar/Lapur: cath>univ
Nema:libr>cath

580: 3
Found Glevum, advance on New Delhi
Western front a little tight but should hold, peas with Chinese was definitely the right call.
Found Axima
Rush treb in Chinan, very little artillery on this side of the channel.
Rush cath in Hangchow
Rush temple in Rutup

IBT:
Scan/Iro sigh peace.
Mongols take incense killing two MDI and archer, but have only a 1hp sword there.
The good news is they abandon approach to Chinan.
Lugd: settler>knight
Hang: cath>univ
Rutu: temple>lib
Chin: treb>cath
Rata: settler>settler

590: 4
Curious Japan sends vet spear south, catapult knocks a HP off and MDI finishes the job to get a GL!
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sg6pp3gl.jpg

No wonders to build so army is formed in Osaka
Autoraze New Delhi with two knights, third kills Indian longbow.
Upgrade several cats across the channel
Notice a jap galley sneaking across the bottom.
Upgrade spear to musket in Verul
Corruption increase in Gerg leaves 29 shields for settler, change to cath.

IBT:
Indians requested and audience, is it because we are about to pillage their saltpeter?
Can get peace for a worker plus Dacca/Pune or Karachi, decline
America takes Punjab from India. For some reason America and India don't know each other?
Mongols mill around the western mountains uncertain of purpose or objective
Rich: settler>univ
Chen: treb>settler

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sg6pp3hakodate.jpg

600: 5
Army takes Hakodate
Found Deva
kill american archer and position two knights, MDI, archer and cat around Punjab. And pillage the saltpeter.
Apparently India also lost Karachi as well. Might want to make a deal while there are still parts to be had.
Rush knight in Alesia for 38 shields, just in case
Sell England Mono for 88g

IBT:
Lost MDI by Japan but not before he took out two others, unfortunately many Japan swords followed.
Alesia: knight>knight
Izumo: cath>knight
Hokadate resistance ends

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sg6pp3punjab.jpg

610: 6
Take Punjab and end resistance all in one move by elite archers. No bombing required, already redlined.
Load up two more knights into army and move to mountain SW of Tonawanda, on other side of river.
Carthage settler/NM is occupying assault point for attack next turn, delayed again,
Take out Japan settler/pike instead, at a cost of 4 HP, can you say ouch? He wasn't even a vet but fought like an elite.
Japan ship turns around since we put our ships into port, must be empty, eh?
Change Lugd to settler, we should have a city on the island up there.
Found Lezoux, needs two MP which are 1 tile away.
The Battle of the Incense continues, bomb vet MDI and elite knight kills losing only 1 hp.
Bad news is he sees five more swords approaching along mountain range, at least they dont have the sense to use the road.
Trade Carthage Education for 2 workers/37g/Republic

IBT:
Scand/carthage peace.
Mongol advance breaks in two at our stand west of Kaifeng.
Indian WE from Dacca kills MDI approaching Calcutta but is redlined.
Ent: knight>knight
Lug: settler>knight
Music Theory now available.

620: 7
Just not fair, knight loses 2 HP taking out redlined WE, this will delay taking calcutta I fear, two units less.
Better news on west front, kill 2 swords, a spear(after promo from our MDI) and 4 archers in forest next to Kaifeng.
Should have cut those trees down. Trebs are missing alot of shots though.
Mouse slip puts elite knight in semi danger, will see.
Switch Lapur to harbor.

IBT:
Lose knight from mouse slip, redlined sword but he was dead anyway.
Iroquois/India peace
Burd: knight>knight

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sg6pp3calcutta.jpg

630: 8
Take Calcutta! Really wanted to whack that Musket/settler but patience till the end.
Still want to whack him but circumstances dictate that peace is more profitable and secure.
Peace with Ghandi for Pune/Dacca/worker/17g
Change Osaka to worker to eliminate flip risk
Rush Library in Mats
Rush temple in Toy

IBT:
Lose knight/archer in the mountains of the Incense war.
Calcutta resistance over.
Gerg: Cath>settler
Quell resistor in Ulaan, which then immediately revolts, go figure.
Mats: Library>harbor
Toy: temple>library

640:
once again carthage is in the way of assault on Tonawanda, go for capital instead.
Kill some more Mongols, lose vet knight attacking redlined sword in mountains.
Rush libr in Curov/Anyang, temple in Edo, cath in Nagoya

IBT:
America sending boat by way of China
Curov: library>cath
Edo: temple>library
Camul: knight>knight
Nag: cath>harbor
Cheng: settler>cath
Ulaan: temple>libr
Anyang: libr>cath
Ratae: settler>univ

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sg6pp3satsuma.jpg

650: 10
Take Satsuma, found Arausio
Rush temple in Mongu

Found city where settler stands out east, Carthage has settler trying to take that area.
Settlers should go across the channel but left movement of ship and two settlers for next player
Almost took Dur but ran short, mostly of concentration, maybe 5 turn sets from now on.
We have 3 overseas cities that may be useful in trade, otherwise they are set to generate tax income.
There are no beakers invested in research so feel free to change, Metal just became available
Ebor can rush knight next turn for 2 pop.

Will edit for pics.

Worth the wait. Good progress. :thumbsup:

Roster check:

Roster:

eldar - up
Bede - on deck
Minute Man
Mab
Tubby Rower
Pied Piper

Thought it was me up. Our Western front is looking a little ragged. I have a plan to bolster it. Tell me what you think...

We have loads of troops in ex-Japan that we don't really need. In particular, we have two armies. We could really do with one of them to contain the Mongols. I'd go for the Gallic army. Obviously we can't transport them by sea, but they can go overland. Only Carthage is now between us and the Mongols, on the Japanese side; so we sign RoP with Hannibal - shouldn't be a problem - and send the Army through that way! Might as well selectively pillage the Mongol lands as it traverses them, but it ought to be safe from attack.

Sounds good to me eldar. After our peace is done with Ghandi, I'd like to see us finish him off. Those War Elephants are scary and he can build them with no resources.

So now we are only at war with the Mongols and Americans correct?

And Japan. We're always at war with them.

Played it.

Summary: Japan are an OCC, but only for a couple more turns. After that, they become a 0CC ;) No progress vs. the Mongols, who continue to send units across our borders. However 'Operation Backdoor' has started, and our Gallic Army is pillaging its was eastwards! With Japan out of the picture, plans have been started to move on India next.

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/Bede_SG006_AD0750_01.SAV)

Turn Log:
0 650 Two settlers to move; go towards China. Galley still to move; heads north to explore a bit more. Already have RoP with Carthage - excellent. Metallurgy is too expensive. What are we doing with our cash otherwise… let's see. Research, too, is steep. Hire a lone Scientist and start a min run on Banking, slim hope, but you never know with these crazy AIs. Get on with the next turn.

IT: Lots of enemy troop movement, including a huuuuuuuuuge stack of English Horsies. Nothing else of note.

1 660 Bomb & redline a couple of retreating Mongol swords, but don't follow up - they're still on a mountain. Find a couple of Temples to whip, and 2 libs that can be whipped next turn. Mop up Jap units, letting major forces heal. The Gallic Army heads off on its long trek.

IT: Mongols take 2hps off a Musket with an ex-MedInf. Japs kill a redlined Knight but lose a red-lined unit by attacking with it! UB riots so it goes on a starvation diet. Babylon are building Copernicus :(

2 670 More unit-chasing.

IT: D'oh.. Japan capture our Trebs.

3 680 Even more unit-chasing, but the Gallics have stopped by Grand River en route.

IT: Mongols kill a Musket.

4 690 Capture Tonawanda and get our Trebs back :D Capture Grand River, Gallics are in the red though. Whack some Mongol units near our Incense.

IT: China/Babylon vs India. Where are all those English units going?! Japan kill a Knight, pillage our Iron near Nara.

5 700 Not much.

IT: Carthage/Mongols peace :( Mongols/Babylon vs India.

6 710 Take out some Mongol units. Take Mauch Chunk :) Find a couple of things to whip. Give Pune away to England as America are about to take it.

IT: Take peace with America for all his gold (22). UB and Satsuma riot. So does Verul.

7 720 UB & Satsuma go on starvation diets. Verul gets a taxman.

IT: Babylon completes Sistine's.

8 730 Move Knights on the last couple of Jap cities. The Gallics are almost into Mongol territory. More Knights move west towards the Mongols. Mongol LBs meanwhile pour over the border, and die.

IT: Mongols plant a unit on our Incense!

9 740 Buy a Worker from Hannibal. Kill some Mongols. Gallic Army enters Mongol territory, captures a couple of Slaves :)

IT: Mongols get their Workers back. Bunch of gpt deals expire.

10 750 Capture Sapporo, Japan down to 1 city. Will take a couple of turns to get there, though. Techs are still too expensive, but I established our remaining embassies. France are close to Copernicus, Scandinavia even closer to Bach's - and has 7 muskets in Trondheim. Gallic Army in Mongol territory is to pillage then move, and move on Darhan from behind. There's a strike force gathering in August, but the Mongols have an endless stream of LBs and MedInfs, it seems. Another stack is ready to go for India. Plant a Settler where the stack is, there's one on the way. Forgot about the no-deals-on-last-turn thing and sold Spices to Ragnar for 8gpt, sorry.

No pictures, it took me a while to play those turns and I've not had dinner yet!!

Neil. :cool:

Wow! great turns guys! I can tell you've been itching to play those turns, Eldar :lol:

Did you find out where those English units were headed? I hope they're not going to pull a sneak attack on us.

From the graphs on the submissions page it looks as though we've probably pop-rushed a lot more culture than the other teams. Our score is lagging behind but our culture is sky-rocketing. We might still have a chance of a medal as long as we consolidate and get a load more cities fast. Taking out Japan probably hasn't had its whole impact on score yet as it looks as though we haven't filled in their lovely virgin lands yet.

Our priorities probably need restating... is it WAR! or build like crazy? Or even a mixture of both?

Again :goodjob: guys!

And still more good progress. :thumbsup:

I will bet my next Chinese dinner that the teams who have crossed our culture graph have built the ToA....then went to town with their Gallics.

Got it.

We make war and build culture. The terrain at home is making the training of settlers tough, and rebuilding the population after whipping, but we should be done with most of that(the whip I mean) at home I think, and that should improve in Japanlands with all that green.

I don't know, I just might take that bet. I personally think the best approach is settler pumps with ICS layout and just clear out the civs as they encroach. What we ought to do now is have every other city build a settler and just settle close by. After 10 turns pop rush a whole new crop of temples. We have the room. It just takes a little longer to play the turns with the extra thought required. The wars can continue, just don't run up the casualties, take it slow and only take territory as we need it.

BTW, forests in tundra are more productive than mines until we get steam.

We need infra in our core cities - Markets in first ring, Courts further out. Obviously it won't hurt to plan for Courts in the core later before the Commie switch. Our economy is hurting right now, I know we're in Despotism but with all those Libraries we should be able to research better than we are.

Perhaps a few universities and then a palace jump may help.

Unis are expensive but bring in culture and extra research. I'd usually build them as a priority but our shields are needed for the war effort just as much as for culture.
I like Pied Piper's pseudo ICS idea as long as we don't cramp our larger cities too much. The whipping in the core will soon come to a halt as each productive city will have all the culture it can handle for now.

All in all I'm really enjoying this game as I can see the point of each move we make, my SP games are usually very unfocused and I just manage a win in the ind/modern ages.

Great game guys :goodjob:

A palace jump isn't really needed... Entremont is pretty much central in our Empire. Don't forget the FP doesn't act as a second core in C3C.

What we need are Markets and Courts, more than Unis.

The point I am trying to make is to not spend any more shields on the war effort, we must convert the territorial gains we have made into culture points needed to win. We should have just enough military to provide security (not conquest) and the rest of the shields should go to building up culture. Or new cities that can build cheap temples for culture. Old cities can get a harbor and provide monetary support.

I believe a univ cost more than a temple+library+cathedral and only provides half the culture, so starting new cities is culturally more productive.

Playing tonight. ConcuR the harbors, markets, courts and new towns are more useful than expensive universities. Our economy is upside down right now because of culture in towns that can't support it economically.

BTW, what did we ever do to the Babylonians? I've combed through the saves and the logs and the only record I have of a Babylonian deal was when we sold them Chivalry for 26gpt. There is no way that the deal could have broken....Something strange here. Unless we included some resource to sweeten the pot and the trade route got broken. :confused:. We certainly held uup our end of the deal as they got Chivalry....

This is going to complicate our future diplomacy, I'm afraid.

At the start of my last turn set, I believe I bought Babylon into the Indian dogpile. What's up with them?

@piper, you signed an alliance with Hammi against India on T0 and signed a Peace Treaty with India on T8, that's what's up with Hammi. Oh, well.

The realm at 850AD (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/Bede_SG006_AD0850_01.SAV)

In 760 Iroquois start Copernicus.

In 790 finish off the Japanese but have to withdraw from Darah. Lose two knights in the process. Advance is put on hold until the Gallic Army finishes its mission and arrives at the back door.

The French finish Copernicus in Paris. And the Vikings get Bach's.

In 800 China and India sign a peace treaty. All those Chinese troops now have to come home across our lands.

In 810 France And Babylon sign an alliance against India.

In 820 I drag Hiawatha to the negotiating table and get Metallurgy for Iron by threatening war.

In 830 upgrade the trebs in Augustodurum to cannon.

In 850 do a map trade with Babylon and get a complete world map and most of what was spent back from the rest of the world.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SGOTM6_Bede_MiniMap850.jpg

The Gallic Army has finished its tour through Mongolia and the Mongols are crippled, population is shrinking at their capitol and the horses are cut off (no Keshiks). The force at Augustadorum is back to strength and can move on Dahran as soon as the bogies around the town are dead. They are just too tough to bust off those hills, even with bombardment support and then the victorious trooper is hung out to dry for the next LB or Mace.

Delhi was taken by the Babylonians and India is now down to a 1CC, New Bombay, between Mauch Chunk and Grand River in our Far East. The forces waiting at the corner have started the move down there.

I shut off research as everybody who had what we wanted already had Banking and the rest had nothing we needed.

Skimmed settlers out of towns in the homeland and also out of the Japanese towns and built eight new towns. And started settlers in the towns that had their temples whipped. Keep an eye on the pop1 towons without temples and when they get to pop2 whip the temple.

It looks like the best plan going forward is build a temple first in every new town, then start a settler.

The towns outside the 2nd ring should never grow past five as it costs too much to keep them happy and whipping libraries costs too many pop points and too much maintenance. Keep them on settler duty. The Mongols managed to cut the incense suppply so a couple of towns rioted.

There is a settler ready to found between Verulamium and Kaifeng.

Babylon is on their way to becoming a Democracy as they are in anarchy now.

BTW Ulaanbattaar should have been starved or whipped down. They have become a perennial problem child as there are nothing but Mongols there.

And I lost track of Noviomagus, the little one tile island without a garrison which is now rioting....It has no harbor so no luxes get across the straits.

Culture per turn grew from 282 to 319.

The five core towns should keep buiding military. There are no more cultural buildings worth the investment. We need muskets on the borders and at least two more strike forces of a dozen knights or cavs (when we get to Military Tradition which we will have to steal or extort). The troops are costing us nothing right now so keep building them, then use them to 1) Finish off the Mongols 2) Then the Chinese 3) Then the Carthaginians.

Keep the rest of the world involved in our wars, on our side. Now that I think on it it was a mistake to start the troops from the Indian corner away from Babylon. Use them as garrisons along the northern border.

The strategic problem we have right now is that we have China to our NW and everybody else to the north of old Japan. We need to eliminate both the Carthaginians and the Chinese.

The best way to do that is start a dogpile on Babylon using the Americans, the Vikings, and the Iroquois, and also get the the French and the English at war with each other so that we can concentrate on Carthage and China. Doing that will also allow us to do other per turn deals with our allies.

Until we can protect our backside (China) and link the two halves of the Empire (Mongols and Carthage) we will not be secure. And going it alone just invites the rest of the world to take us on.

I'm up next, right? I got it, but I probably won't be able to play until Saturday.

So, basically, our current plan is to:

(1) Start a couple of phony wars, to keep the rest of the world busy while we...
(2) Conquer our neighbors, which gives us more room to...
(3) Build a whole bunch of cities (as tight as we can, except near the core) and whip a whole bunch of temples.

But the main focus is on building settlers; only the fully developed core cities should be devoted to military. Do I have everything right?

Also, if I do start the suggested wars (mini-dogpile on Babylon, French/English war), will that be enough to keep, say, the Mongols from bringing in one of the other civs against us, or should I try to get alliances against our neighbors as well (which would be an awful lot of alliances)?

For new cities I would recommend placement in the area directly across the channel. There are unused tiles over there and corruption is low. Perhaps we can ship some workers over there to develop the tiles Japan did not do, or change some irrigation on grass to mines. Also forest in Tundra is more productive than mines.

The Mongols don't have many legs left, or much of an economy. So their ability to form alliances is pretty weak. They haven't been able to buy any help yet.

The bigger concern would be a Carthage/China alliance against us. Maybe Carthage vs China till when we are ready to take on China? Or Chnia v Carthage? Include a Right of Passage. And yeah, it is a lot of alliances but on a map like this that is the only way to keep everybody busy and out of our hair.

And shipping workers to old Japan and planting trees on the ice are good.

And you have the plan, MM.

I'm going to be gone next week to Chicago for work. I'm going to request a skip until I check back in. I'll be here this weekend but I don't know how much time I'll have due to packing and playing with my daughter..... Good luck guys. I'll check in and offer suggestion if I can.

I'm midway through my turns, and it looks like we have a bit of a problem. Babylon finished wiping out India and then decided to sneak attack us! I tried to sign alliances with Hammurabi's neighbors, but nobody is willing to ally with us ("will never accept such a deal"), due to our broken alliance earlier. Is there any way around this, or are we going to have to go it alone (which could get ugly)?