SGOTM6 - Celts. Team Bede.

Welcome to your team thread for SGOTM06. I hope you enjoy the game.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM6-START.jpg

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Celts
World size - 100 wide by 130 high.
Difficulty Emperor (approximately)
Landform Contiguous Pangea

Here are a number of links you might find useful.

The Constitution (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1733966&postcount=61)
GOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=71788)
Upload a Save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm.php)
Download a save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php)
SGOTM06 Maintenance Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=110909)

This Months' sponsored variant is Cultural Celtic Communists the rules for which are as follows.

1. The only allowed governments are despotism and communism.
2. You must win by 100K victory condition.

Your save has been uploaded to the server and will become available to you on the 7th February.

Anyone know the difference between Pangea and Contiguous Pangea? Also it says our save has been uploaded, does that mean each team has a different save? Perhaps with some coded signature?

Contiguous was used on purpose. It does mean something. If you take it to mean "joined up" then it may give you a clue. I am not going to say any more than that.

Yes indeed. Everyone gets there own save which is coded. You can only upload saves with your own signature. This prevents 3rd parties interfering with the saves, and also allows our software to identify a game correctly when extracting the stats.

"Contiguous" does indeed mean "joined up". Which, I imagine, means there won't be any annoying Civs sitting on islands.

This is fine by me, means we can :hammer: everyone out of sight, hit the domination limit, and crank up the ICS for the rest of the game.

Neil :cool:

Checking in.

Hi guys... has anyone thought about a roster or opening moves yet?
I'm in the middle of looking at the screenie to decide on options.. be warned that I usually come up with strange ideas from time to time, feel free to point them out!

Mab.

Morning, everbody.

Thoughts on the opener:

Settle on the spot. My medium term plan does not involve a settler farm in the capitol anyway, I'd prefer to use a "spawn" rather than "farm" approach anyway, skimming settlers out of everywhere. Set research towards the Temple of Artemis with a pre-build in th capitol. Build five towns, a bunch of archers, then take on the world. :ninja:

I would like to delay the UU-induced GA until the Middle Ages as that is when tech costs increase and we won't have the commerce gains from Republic to pay for them.

The research path and pace: go for Polytheism at maximum sustainable, then the war mongering knowldege. After that shut research off and use our bows and arrows to best effect. Alternatively we could go for the warfare knowledge and use pop rushes to build our temples.

Roster thoughts:
Mab
Minute Man
Pied Piper
Bede
Tubby Rower
eldar

The obvious, initial, thought is the ToA. However, ToA temples don't double. As an Ag/REL civ, any freshwater cities we build, will get a Temple in 10 turns, maximum. Most non-freshwater-cities will get the Temple in 10 as well. Depending upon how closely we pack them early on, we can get a significant core of 4-culture-per-turn Temples.

Of course if the long-term plan doesn't involve learning Education.

2nd city up by the Wheat will be productive, and should be able to churn out Settlers quite nicely.

Minute Man reporting for duty. :salute: Hello, all.

I should warn everybody up front that I've never even tried a game at Emperor before, or played a fast 100K game at any level. So I may not have any idea what I'm talking about. :)

I would like to delay the UU-induced GA until the Middle Ages as that is when tech costs increase and we won't have the commerce gains from Republic to pay for them.

The problem with this is we miss the window of opportunity when GS are most effective. Since we have a good UU, I'd rather try to get the maximum benefit from it, even if that means our GA is less useful.

On ToA: I don't know if we want it, since temples are cheap and I think 1000-year doubling is going to matter more than in a typical 100K game. Not that it would hurt anything, but I don't think it's worth the effort.

One long-term question: are we going to try to reach the IA and go commie, or just stick with despotism all game? Personally I think we're going to need communism, or we're going to have too many corrupt cities that won't be able to build anything but temples.

On opening moves: I think I'd rather move the settler toward either the wheat or game - our capital can't get either if we settle on the spot. We will ge the cow, but I don't know how soon we can improve that square.

Is that the coast or a fresh water lake?

Contiguous Pangea may mean a spiral type layout to delay contact with other civs, perhaps they are all lined up like dominoes so it is hard to get by each one and make contact. Therefore I am thinking that the water is perhaps only a lake and not connected to the greater oceans and there may be plenty of chokepoints that need a city for ship passage.

The SGOTM mod is based on the GOTM23 setup.

GOTM23 had these settings:

# World size: 5000 tiles (standard)
# Landmass: Pangaea 58% H2O
# Geology: 3 billion years old
# Environment: Warm and Arid
# Barbarians: Raging
# Rivals: 9 Preset
# Upgrade Swordsmen/Longbows: ON
# Differential Naval Movement is Engaged

Does this mean we have the same? Barbarian setting interests me most, but what is Differential Naval Movement?

I notice the map is taller than it is wide, is that normal? For 130x100, I count 12,950 tiles, what size is that normally? Also I wonder if the left and right edges are connected.

Please don't assume anything from the map when comparing to GOTM23. The Mod is very similar but the map is completely different. :)

I like Bede's overall strategic plan. The goal here is to be first to get 100K CULTURE, not to whomp the most heads. (I shall be emphasizing this point many times) At emperor level it should not be difficult to clear out the core area (8 to 10 tiles in every direction from the capital) which we must settle intensively and utilize every tile. City placement should ensure the ability to add a second generation of cities once the initial cities have built all culture buildings. Attacking other civs should only be done for state security and to clear out more living room.

Since we will play much of the game in despotism, luxury will come in handy but a two turn worker factory is essential. Workers can be joined to nonproductive cities outside the low corruption core area to rush culture buildings at 20 shields per worker. This is an efficient means of shield transference out of the core area.

I do wonder about the research goal after polytheism. I prefer Literature to be able to build libraries ASAP, the AI is very slow to get that tech.

Producing Workers with the specific goal of joining them to corrupt cities for pop rushing isn't allowed, AFAIR.

OK mad-bax, you just snowed me, explain to the ignorant savage the difference.

Thanks eldar, will rule that out then, as you can tell I have not done a 100K game here.

Oh, I have a question about the modded resource files...
I've downloaded and unzipped in to conquests\scenarios, is that all that is required? (i.e. no overwriting of the main resources.pcx, etc.)

Neil. :cool:

Pied Piper: The C3C version is exactly the same as the out of the box version of conquests except for two things.

1. I have replaced the C3C resources with GOTM resources.
2. You will get workers from huts and not settlers.

The reference to GOTM 23 is for PTW/vanilla players as all the PTW civs were added to the vanilla version at this point and some other changes were made to make the competition between vanill and PTW fairer. The mod process was most nearly finalised in GOTM 23. Later GOTM had mods that cannot be used as a general rule, with modifications to the tech tree for the Korean game and others.

The map itself is brand new, and doesn't look like the GOTM23 Map. It is a 100wide by 130High pangea, handbuilt tile by tile. Resources added tile by tile. Start positions and play order set for every civ etc.

The reference to gotm23 is purely to let former gotm players know that they do not need to downloas anything if they have played up to gotm 23.

It's best not to think about it too much. It's a new map, standard rules with sheep :)

Differential naval movement has not been impemented for C3C. I am still deciding which way to jump on this long term. Actually I should let the other C3C teams know this in the maintenance thread.

The recource files reside in the scenarios folder in a folder called SGOTM. You do NOT have to replace any of your standard installation. Just unzip the file into the scenarios folder and load the test save. If you see goats you're set.

Thanks, actually I did the update when I signed up. Not to sound prudish or anything but what are sheep used for? Is there anything describing these (new?) resources? Or is it just a different graphic for the same old thing?

The GOTM resources are designed to increase choice. They allow different kinds of tile improvements to be made. In this way you can persuade mountains to provide food with goats, and hills to provide 2 food, deserts have more variation too.

The first post of this thread has a link to the GOTM Reference thread. In there is a link to the GOTM specific resources. A guy called bamspeedy analysed the effects of each resource and listed what each resource would yield on each type of terrain with irrigation and mines, and also gave sound advice on how to best use them. You really do NEED to read this discussion, even if it is only the list of terrain values.

Hmm... it seems Oases have disappeared from the bonus resources.

...and tobacco... and sugar cane :)

Took the liberty of making a map for our initial cities. Any comments? The first moves should probably be to mine and build a temple, but we need to develop tiles in the direction of our expansion so settlers can move on roads. Which site shall we send our first built settler to?
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sgotm6tbprop1.jpg

I like Bede's overall strategic plan. The goal here is to be first to get 100K CULTURE, not to whomp the most heads. (I shall be emphasizing this point many times) At emperor level it should not be difficult to clear out the core area (8 to 10 tiles in every direction from the capital) which we must settle intensively and utilize every tile. City placement should ensure the ability to add a second generation of cities once the initial cities have built all culture buildings. Attacking other civs should only be done for state security and to clear out more living room.

Since we will play much of the game in despotism, luxury will come in handy but a two turn worker factory is essential. Workers can be joined to nonproductive cities outside the low corruption core area to rush culture buildings at 20 shields per worker. This is an efficient means of shield transference out of the core area.

I do wonder about the research goal after polytheism. I prefer Literature to be able to build libraries ASAP, the AI is very slow to get that tech.

I have to go with eldar on this one. The most efficient way to get to 100K under these government restrictions almost requires whomping every head.

As for culture buildings we won't need all of them or even close - temple/library/cathedral will do nicely, if we build enough of them. And that "enough" requires nearly constant warfare.

Secondly, the government restrictions do not allow cash rushed buildings so we need a constant stream of new cities with a growing population for the whip. Now that I have written that it occurs to me that the Pyramids and the Temple of Artie would be useful wonders to have, either by building or by capture. The ToA for the immediate temple, the Pyramids for the granary for faster population growth for more forced labor.

City placement for the initial phase should be CxxxC at maximum in the first and second rings, CxxC and Cxc after that, terrain and weather permitting.

On ToA: I don't know if we want it, since temples are cheap and I think 1000-year doubling is going to matter more than in a typical 100K game. Not that it would hurt anything, but I don't think it's worth the effort.


Since temples are so cheap lets take advantage of our trait and pass on TOA. Then we can research straight to literature and delay polytheism. Getting the culture doubling will be very important.

Agree with Bede - Pyramids will be very, very useful.
However...
Pyramids+ToA will trip our GA, if we build both.

I'd rather encourage a neighbour to build ToA, and capture it, and build the Pyramids ourselves.

Neil. :cool:

I'm looking forward to this challenge!!! Despotism throughout the Middle Ages :eek: . That's scary. Correct me if I'm wrong but captured wonders do NOT give culture?

As for inital moves, worker N to mine & road BG. settle in place (if you move the settler you'll lose the cow on the other side of the Amazon River. 2nd and 3rd cities should get the game and wheat.

Later in the game, I think that I'll need to be reminded about the domination limit. That would suck if we had the game in hand and lose it because we won it the wrong way.

@Pied Piper -> the upload folder that your picture is in is uploads9
Corrected picture link (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sgotm6tbprop1.jpg) I think that we want to spread the initial cities out a little more than is portrayed in the picture.

Contiguous Pangea - many continents seperated by 1 tile "rivers" connected by small land bridges?

Pyramids+ToA will trip our GA, if we build both.

If you capture and/or build both it would trip a GA.

A GA is triggered in one of two ways:
- Your Civ's UU killing an AI unit.
- Building a Wonder, which either completes the complementing set of traits for your Civ, or if you already own (through having built/captured) Wonders with matching traits.

So, if we build the Pyramids (Agr), and capture ToA (Rel), we won't get the GA until we build our next Wonder.

Now, as we're going to be stuck with a Despotic GA, I'd like it to be as late as we can risk. Which means early wars with Horses, leaving our Gallic Swords - highly effective units well into the Middle Ages - until we have a larger empire.

Neil. :cool:

The save is here for those who don't know that m-b puts it on the SGOTM scores page:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/Bede_SG006_BC4000_01.SAV

I looked at it this morning and the "Amazon River" is an arm of the ocean as the tiles only give 1f.

Also m-b has confirmed that barbs are set to "raging with intense regional barbarian activity". So there's the weather report I was looking for and draw your own conclusions.

@Mab (may I refer to you as Queen Mab, seeing we are going to need some magic?), care to start us off?

I think we should max research towards Literature and try trading for HB. We don't need Poly if:
we build the Pyramids (Agr), and capture ToA (Rel), we won't get the GA until we build our next Wonder.
For an early military we have archers and then horses, so we can postpone BW and IW research. It is my habit to build all offensive units in barracks, with cheap barracks most cities should have one, but to save money I leave several cities without, which can build the catapults, trebs, and artillery.


BTW, is it 20 turns for the first turn set of the game?

I agree with TR that our initial expansion should be Northward to exploit the river system and its commerce benefits.

If you look at the mini-map you will note that we start in south-easternmost corner and if you fog-gaze at the south you will note tundra.

In Conquests the Celts do not get cheap barracks.

So initial expansion should be north by northwest, exploiting the riverine fields for the food bonus (+1 in the city center).

For archers we will need to research or buy Warrior Code and for horsemen, HBR.

Every first ring city should have a barracks as its very first build so that we can produce veteran archers when the time comes.

When it comes to really early culture I would vote against. More than anything we need land, cities and population and for that we need military and settlers more than anything.

I just got badly burned in a Deity 100K game by building early culture instead of military for conquest and settlers for land grabbing.

In the Emperor game with the Celts that eldar and I just finished we started our culture push late (750AD) and finshed with 100K and Domination almost exactly 1000 years later. We started the push with 70+ towns having conquered our continent and ended with 111, mostly on our home continent. Culture growth was less than 300cpt at the beginning of the push but rose to 860 by the end game. Total culture at the start of the culture mongering was 9000. it took 153 turns to increase the city count by 40 and the total culture by over 90000.

The crux of all this analysis is that if we can have 100 towns by 750AD we should be able to wrap this one in fine style. And the only way to do that is going to be with a serious focus on military.

Hey guys
Apologies for the late showing and missing out on all the discussion. The facists that I work for have banned access to the CF forums due to bad language??? :confused: I guess the OT has influenced the whole site!

Anyway... I played a quick test game with the same settings last night and was able to expand nice and fast. That's rare for me btw :blush:

I don't mind going first but think that honour might be better off going to someone with more experience, I'm a little rusty to be honest and don't want the plans to be scuppered right from the off!

I agree with the plan to settle in place, where do you guys reckon the 2nd city should be? I'm leaning towards NE of the wheat but we'll need to see how productive that site is. No point having loads of food and no shields!

Since it has to be close to 10:00 PM in the UK I can appreciate your relunctance to start.

eldar is also the UK, Minute Man is in New Mexico and the Piper in Detroit, and TR in VA, so why not set the roster this way:

Bede - opens the ball
Minute Man - on deck
Mab
Tubby Rower
Pied Piper
eldar

That should get us started

I like to keep a fairly strict 24 to post a got it, 24 for discussion if necessary, then 24 to play and post. Skips automatically honored when requested. And unrequested skips can be picked up by the next in line by posting a got it.

Twenty turns for the starter, then 10 each after that.

Back with a report in a couple of hours.

That sounds good to me! I'll be back online at 6pm GMT all being well. Good luck!

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/Bede_SG006_BC3000_01.SAV)


Settle on the spot and set the worker to mining the grassland to the west. Set Research to Alphabet at minimum and train a warrior. Train five more for exploration duty and an escort for the settler as they are barbarians in them thar hills.


Warriors start boxing the compass and in 3150BC meet a Mongol conscript. Temujin possesses Warrior Code and 35g (he started with Pottery and Warrior Code) so he has been busy busting barbarian hovels and hasn't made any friends yet.

I pass on buying Warrior Code as it will only get cheaper.
In 3100 the Mongols know Bronze Working.

In 300 the first settler leaves Entremont to build a town on the spot just west (1SW of the silks).

Entremont is building a granary while it grows, could be switched to barracks.

Worker is back at home, mine and road the bonus grasslands just south then proceed to connnecting the next town.

Here is a list of our opponents:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SGOTM6Bede01.jpg

And now a dotmap:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SGOTM6Bede02.jpg

Moving dot 2 1NW will get two boinus grass on founding.

Met the Mongols to the west. From what I have seen we have the richest possible start in this corner.

Towns 1 and 2 should start barracks, 3 and 4 temples after workers.

Roster check:
Minute Man - up
Mab - rarin' to go
Tubby Rower
Pied Piper
eldar
Bede

OK, got it. Follow Bede's plan and try not too screw things up too badly. Looks good to me.

What's the plan on tech research? If the opportunity arises to trade for alpha and go down the writing/philo branch arises, should I do that? Or are we more interested in trading for military techs (WC, Wheel) right now?

Research is minimum at Alphabet which we should be able to use to acquire miltary techs at just about the time we will be able to use them, i.e barracks are built and ready to train archers.

Keep pushing the warrior/explorers and don't waste them on barbarians or goody huts. The contacts we make will be worth more than anything we can get from huts.

The philosophy gambit will get us Literature if it is successful so by all means pursue it.

We porbably won't be able to buy alphabet for a reasonable price, though if it comes up, buy it if we have somebody to trade it off to.

Hey, we're in the lead at 3000BC (with two teams still to submit their 3000BC saves)! My guess is that 6 warriors and a settler, makes for a (relatively!) good score :)

If the settler builds a city on the tile NW of site #1 it looks like we can pick up 25 gold and disperse the barbs in the mountains without attacking. Population growth won't be delayed, in fact it can be increased if the worker cuts down the forest and starts irrigating. Also there will then be room for another city on the river between sites #1 and #4.

For us new to SGotM, what is the actual page with the start file, and the one with the current scores?

If the settler builds a city on the tile NW of site #1 it looks like we can pick up 25 gold and disperse the barbs in the mountains without attacking.
but you'll lose the BG in the short run growth right now is more important correct?

The advantage of Site #1 is that defensive troops can go back an forth from Entremont, and fortify, in 1 turn, without crossing the river. There's also the possibility that a Barb from the camp might whack our warrior before settling - a major setback.

I have not seen that happen in an Emperor level game, especially on a hill tile. It would be a major setback if it happened, though the other warrior could reduce the probability to zero if it is a concern. Two forest chops equals quite a few turns of BG benefit, the BG can be incorporated in the next city on the river. Just a suggestion is all. I try to minimize barbarian threats when I can. Seemed like the way to go with the camp on the mountain. Wonder if he changed the massive uprising key?

[...]
For us new to SGotM, what is the actual page with the start file, and the one with the current scores?


You can find it here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php). Just click on the link in the fourth column to get to most recent save. :)

In post 1 of this thread there is a list of links. There is one to upload a file to the server. There is another one to download a file (save) from the server. This is the page you need. The date of the save for your team will be displayed and you can click the link to download it. at the bottom of the page you will find a graph to show you your progress versus the other teams.

Since the Celts are AGRI and get a food bonus in the city if settling on the river I would prefer keeping at least one forest unchopped, probably the silks, as the long term shields with only a road cost fewer worker turns than mining the hills.

Also I hate disturbing barbarian villages at any level above Monarch until I have the force to deal with them: three things can happen and two of them are bad. Since we are not alone on this map I would let the neighbors deal with them.

So I prefer spot #1.

Query: has everyone installed the AINoPatrol=0 fix? If you haven't please do so. There is a handy installer on the GOTM page somewhere. It makes the barbarian behavior much more interesting, shall we say?

Hey, we're in the lead at 3000BC (with two teams still to submit their 3000BC saves)! My guess is that 6 warriors and a settler, makes for a (relatively!) good score :)

Actually, I think that's Firaxis score, so warriors and settler don't matter, just territory and population. My interpretation is that everybody else either (a) moved from the starting spot or (b) got a settler out a little faster than we did.

On city site 1: I'm leaning toward the spot as marked, if only because moving it means the city will have way too many hills and mountains. BTW, I believe that's a goody hut, not a barb camp (though there is a barb camp a little further over), so I agree with Bede that taking it out isn't a high priority. If it's still there when we build a temple we'll get it on border expansion.

I'll get this played as soon as my coffee kicks in. Report should be up in an hour or two.

We are just competing against the [c3c] competitors, correct? It looks like only us and CDZ did something different. Everyone else with conquests had the exact same score except the 2 teams that hadn't played yet. So it looks like everyone but us and CDZ moved the settler and Bede probably emphasized food more than the 1st player of CDZ....

EDIT: Bede, I have the noaipatrol =0 fix.

I have noaipatrol=0

I imagine Bede worked with +4 food every turn (fairly sure I would've). Others may have worked a forest for a bit for slightly slower growth vs. more shields?

0 - 3000 BC - Everything looks good.

1 - 2950 - Our western warrior spots a Mongol settler. This is in addition to the three cities they already have. We're definitely not on Monarch anymore.

2 - 2900 - Alesia founded on spot #1. Decide to build a warrior before barracks as there is a barb camp 3 spaces away which is making me very nervous. We'll probably want him as an escort for our next settler anyway.

3 - 2850 - Western warrior spots yellow (Mongol) borders south of the mountain range he's been following. It's had an expansion, so probably their capital.

MM Entremont to work the cow so it grows a turn faster (if my calculations are correct we'll still get the granary at the same time).

4 - 2800 - Spot brown border NW of Mongols.

5 - 2750 - Entremont grows and needs 10% lux to prevent rioting. Need to work the forest for a couple of turns until our mine is finished.

6 - 2710 - Alesia warrior->barracks. Leave warrior in Alesia for now.

Contact with brown borders - it's Carthage. He's up BW, Masonry, and Alpha, down CB, and has 3 cities. Mongols don't have Alpha, so there's a trade opportunity here, but Hannibal won't give it to us even for everything we have.

8 - 2630 - Northern warrior spots pink borders to our NW.

10 - 2550 - Entremont granary->settler.

Pink borders is China. He's up BW, WC, and Masonry, down Pottery, and has five cities.

Here's the situation in 2550 BC:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SGOTM6_Bede_2550BC.jpg

Carthage isn't visible on the minimap, but he's just NW of the Mongols.

Bede's three remaining city locations are indicated by the dots (in order: red, green, blue).

We've discovered dyes (S of Entremont) and spices (two off to the NW and one underneath our warrior in the pic). Note the barb camp close to Alesia. I didn't think it was worth sending a warrior to deal with yet, but we'll want to take it out when we get the chance.

Neither China nor the Mongols have Alphabet yet, so there's definitely a trading opportunity as soon as Hannibal is willing to give it to us (he still won't even for everything we have). Or possibly try to trade for WC (should be cheaper since everybody has it), but brokering Alpha seems like a better idea to me.

And the Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/Bede_SG006_BC2550_01.SAV), for the next better player.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, and the roster:

Minute Man - just played
Mab - up!
Tubby Rower - on deck
Pied Piper
eldar
Bede

should we be shaving off a settler off of Alesia instead of a barracks? It looks like we might be able to get another settler out quicker if we do. The downside is that there might not be enough escorts.

This is my got it.

Anymore suggestions before I crack open the save? It seems our short term priorities are tech brokering, settler building and military.

What's this no AI patrol thing? :confused: And is it allowed by the rules?

EDIT: just done a bit of digging in the ref thread and it seems it's positively encouraged by the staff. NoAIpatrol here I come!

Good call on the settler pull from Alesia, but let it finish the barracks first as that won't cripple the population growth and you can send the worker to chop the game forest to help.

If I read the screenshot aright there are two warriors in town so leave one and send the other with the settler.

Ok I've just finished playing.

Pre turn: 2550BC
Check cities, can't tweak to improve growth or shields so leave as set them.
Enter diplomacy, can buy BW fairly cheap but still no luck with alphabet(due in 20)
Spot some incense near Mongols that I don't think was mentioned?

Turn 1
Worker completes road/mine near Entremot. Send him to road game then silks.
Warriors continue in same directions. Nothing new to report.

IBT
Barb attacks warrior. Win no damage.

Turn 2 2470BC
Nothing much, warriors continue exploring and worker starts construction on new road. Still no trading opportunities.

IBT
Ooops, Entremot goes into disorder! I could have sworn I checked that last turn. Sorry guys.

Turn 3 2430BC
Bump up lux tax to 20% so no citizens are wasted. Still no trades that I'm prepared to pay for. China will offer us a pittance for pottery (1 tech, BW)

IBT
Looks like the Carthaginians are off barb hunting.

Turn 4 2390BC
Nothing much. Settler due next turn. Carthage are holding on to alpha, not even everything we have inc 6gpt will secure it. I'm itching to pop some of those goody huts!

Turn 5 2350BC
Settler completed. Send it on a "go to" to the red dot. Change production to Barracks for want of anything better. Toyed with an early temple but figured the shields would be better spent on military stuff at the moment.
Just reread Bede's last post and realised should have chopped forest before roading. I really should make a list before playing! Alesia will grow next turn, it's going to complete its barracks before building the settler, growth is a bit slow at this stage. Once the game forest is chopped and irrigated, we'll be able to crank a few more settlers.

IBT
Mongol scout comes a calling.

Turn 6 2310BC
Nothing much happening.Warriors are on 'explore but avoid barbs' mode. MM Entremot to grow a turn sooner. Still no decent trades available. No one has any new stuff, looks like the huts are being tight.

IBT
Mongol infidels pop our hut by Alesia.

Turn 7 2270BC
Darn! Mongols got a tech! I think it was Masonry.
China will trade Pottery +99gold for BW and WC. I think that's a good deal, but don't trade as I've temporarily lost internet access and can't check with you guys. Grr!
MM Alesia to get extra food and still get barracks in 1 turn.

Turn 8 2230BC
Alesia completes barracks. Set to settler in 6 turns. Grow in 8.
Road completed. Dilemma: connect lux or chop game and irrigate first?
I decide the lux is more important so command worker to connect silks.
No new trades possible.

IBT
Mongols are building The Colossus
China demands we leave town.

Turn 9 2190BC
Lugdunum founded.+4 fpt, grow in 5t, set to build warrior.
Man these workers are slow! 7 turns to build a road? I propose that a worker should be built before the next settler.

Turn 10 2150BC
Nothing really of interest. Warriors are spread out across the known world.

Trading Ops
Carthage seems to have lost a lot of gold this turn. I don't know if it was pillaging or trade for a tech that we don't have the pre-req for. I'm thinking they just bought IW. They'll accept all our gold and 2gpt for Alpha (due in 10t), that was just their first demand, I haven't tried to bargain.
Mongols now have alphabet and are a bit more expensive than Carthage.
China still don't have pottery or alphabet.

I think we should try and buy alpha and trade it to China for tech and gold.


Heres a screenie:

Sorry for the fast repost, heres the >>>SAVE<<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/Bede_SG006_BC2150_01.SAV) and a larger minimap

We still only have the 1 Worker?! Next player ought to skim a Worker from Entremont after the Rax and switch Lugdunum to a Worker... discuss?

FWIW, I'd have done the tech deal.

Neil. :cool:

We are making excellent progress. :thumbsup: MM and Mab

@TR, pull out all the stops and trade like a madman. If nothing else get what value you can for Pottery. And don't hesitate to pay what you feel may be a high price for something, if there is someone to buy it from you. The only cardinal error in trading techs is buying something then not having some other sucker ready to pay you something for it.

Also, reset, if you can, Alesia so it gets the settler after it grows. And, finally, I would put a priority on a town at the Incense to the NW, then the towns on the coast.

@Mab - The Pottery plus 90 for two warfaring techs was not a bad deal. Though I would have tried to buy Alphabet first, probably.


Roster check:
Tubby Rower - up
Pied Piper - on deck
eldar
Bede
Minute Man
Mab

Just a word to TR, when Bede says having someone to buy a tech from you, this means that they must have some money (or line of credit), as well a lack of the tech knowledge you wish to trade. Credit line is really not a factor this early in the game.

Ok. I got it. I've learned a lot in TR01 & some of the other SGs that I'm in about tech trading. So maybe I can put some to practice. Too bad dman is in team smackster and won't be able to benefit from his pupil's progress :D . I'll play now

List of things I'll be doing....
get Alesia to grow before settler production (unless something > 3 turn delay)
Get more workers out of Entremont & Lugdunum
trade for other techs & gold (priority on Pottery)

Is it kosher to trade for a worker in SGOTM? I need an answer pretty quick otherwise I'm going to do it. It's part of a tech deal and Carthage has had a worker in it's capital for 3 turns and we need workers. I don't see anything wrong with it but didn't want to do it unless it's ok.

EDIT: I re-read through the intro PM that Bede to see if there was an answer in there. There is no mention of buying workers off of AI in the banned exploits list so I'm going to assume that it is ok.

BTW, tech trading is fun now that I know how to do it!!! ;)

T0 2150BC - Get Alpha from Carthage for 183g + 1gpt
trade Alpha & pottery to China for Masonry, BW, WC & 48G
Mongols & Carthage have IW, we're even with China
155G total for 4 techs isn't bad is it?
Couldn't get Alesia to grow faster...all food tiles are also shield rich
Writing @ min
T1 2110BC - Entremont barracks -> worker should get him next turn (8 shields + 2 on growth)
China bought IW or popped it, they had no gold when I left them
western warrior sees purple borders
T2 2070BC - Entremont worker -> settler
move worker to Lugunum to develop that area since the other 2 cities won't be growing much more than what they are now
MM Lugunum to get another worker in 3 turns -1 food + 1 shield sacrificed 1 turn on growth
Oh lucky day! western warrior meet Iroquois (purple border) he's up The wheel & down Masonry has 85 G
AND a Japanese scouting warrior (he's up the Wheel & IW and down Masonry) has 0 G
trade Japan Masonry for IW straight up
trade Iroquois IW for the Wheel & 24 G
see no horses but we 2 irons right outside of our borders (but one is on the other side of the Amazon)
trade Carthage The Wheel for 185G + a slave
trade Mongols The Wheel for 137G
slave to BG south of Entremont to mine/road
T3 2030BC - trade Carthage 431G +1gpt for Myst.
trade Iroquois Masonry for 61G to get some cash
trade Japan Myst, 6gpt & 46G for HBR
trade Carthage HBR for 432G
T4 1990BC - Alesia settler -> warrior
MM Lugdunum for foor will grow and build worker next turn
move settler to spot between forest & hill along river with no escort
T5 1950BC - silk road done woo hoo!
MM Entremont for food settler next turn
Mongols have a worker for sale, if still there next turn might trade Myst for the slave & 58G
T6 1910BC - Entremont settler -> settler MP will escort
Lugdunum worker -> warrior
Camulodunum founded -> warrior
drop lux down to 10%
Mongol worker left so no trade
T7 1870BC - Alesia warrior -> warrior
move warrior for protection of Camulodunum
T8 1830BC - Japanese city of Izumo is founded across the Amazon
move Alesia MP to Entremont for happiness
T9 1790BC - zz
T10 1750BC - Entremont settler -> curraph for exploration
Alesia warrior -> archer
Richborough founded on north coast -> worker
lux to 0%

There is a settler left in Entremont. We need to decide whether to expand west or collect the dyes in the south. There's not much out there for trading. Mongols & China have 58g & 50g respectively and are missing Myst & HBR. Japan, China, & Iroquois are building the pyramids, China the Colossus, & Japan the oracle. No other wonders currently. I've started to see Chinese archers scouting around. Our military is weak compared to everyone (surprise, surprise) we're expanding. JApan has 9 cities :eek: .

We currently have MP's in all cities, no escort for the new settler though. 3 warrior scouts. 3 workers & 1 slave. 464g with +8gpt. There is a goodie hut at the tip of the Chinese island and we have a warrior 1 tile away. I figure that we could pop that hut, our warrior would be on a mountain for defense and then the barbs might try to hit the Chinese ;)

Save from 1750 BC (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/Bede_SG006_BC1750_01.SAV)

dotmap
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sgotm6_1750bc.jpg

goodie hut by Chinese
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sgotm6_chinese_gh.jpg

MiniMap
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sgotm6_mini1750.jpg

EDIT:8 techs and gained 67G and a slave!!! :p Was that good enough trading Bede?

Doesn't sound bad at all TR. Am at work right now but will read more thoroughly tonight and get it then.

Nice trades there!
I didn't try to bargain with the AI because it was my last turn and you're not supposed to make deals on your last turn.
If my damned internet connection hadn't quit on me right at the vital moment then I could have asked you guys about that earlier trade. I thought it was reasonable but didn't think we'd recoup our gold at that point.

Anyway I'm glad I didn't mess up my turns, stage fright and all that!

Anyway I'm glad I didn't mess up my turns, stage fright and all that!
Me too. I didn't want to screw things up either, and I don't think we messed up. According to our score graph (which I know doesn't mean anything this early) We are in the lead. BTW, it looks like team Barbslinger finally played and matched Bede's opening turnset for the score.

According to our score graph (which I know doesn't mean anything this early) We are in the lead.

Yey! Go team! :goodjob: Just imagine our score if I hadn't made a couple of little mistakes (like the disorder :blush: )

So what are our medium term plans? Expand like crazy, build a bit of culture and stomp the enemies?

BTW I'm trying to get over my addiction to smilies.

@TR, :thumbsup:

Roster check:

Pied Piper - up
eldar - on deck
Bede
Minute Man
Mab
Tubby Rower

Got it, will play tonight, sorry I couldn't do it last night.

No sweat, Pied. You're well within the window.

Game File (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sgotm6tb1500bc.sav)
Well this is about the time that the demands begin, what stance do we wish to take?
I know, give in till we can crush them.
Need to decide destination for settler
Look at strategic level.
1) we are only half a civ, the other half is across the straits, unless we move our palace.
2) There is such a thing as a bridge too far. The spices are near that point, wrt the Chinese
3) will settle on this side of spices, on hill for defense. Just inside the limits of reduced corruption. And surrounding our Iron source.
4) notice in this game we have some distance between us and the neighbors, will likely delay the initial hostilities.
5) also notice that many mountains really divide up the landscape and will influence the wars.

What is fortified warrior doing in the middle of nowhere? Recall back to homeland to new city location. Nah, explore.
Why writing at 10%? If this low why not 0% and save 2gpt? Leave as is.

Camul: warrior>barracks
Livy list 8 happiest.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sgotm6tbpp1.jpg
1725: 1
workers finish mine(?) on wheat tile.
Pop Chinaman's hut (per recommendation) for gift of 50 gold.
Change Ent to archer for no wasted shields (as opposed to 6)
---
Lug: warrior>worker

1700: 2
Far west warrior halts to heal 1 HP.
---
Ent:archer>curragh

1675: 3
Already too late. Chengdu is built next to dyes.
If I can't have the red dot I will go for the green dot.

1650: 4
China learns Myst
Major waste of shields in Alesia, change to temple or settler for no waste.
Change to Temple to incorporate Iron since red dot was taken.
Found Verulamium on green dot.
West warrior sees furs in southern Japan.
Ent: curragh>temple

1625: 5
Iroquois get HBR, Mongol scout sighted south of capital.
Cur can only move one space?

1600: 6
Alesia: Temple>worker
Lug: worker>barracks
---
Rich: worker>worker
Mongols building Colossus, but Trondheim finishes it.

1575: 7
Hire taxman in Ent for 1 turn.
---
Japan complains about ship in his personal space.
Alesia worker>archer
Wonder building announcements

1550: 8
10% lux for 1 gpt, will need several turns
---
Entremont borders expand.
Ent: temple>settler (to be completed as road south finishes.)

1525: 9
Japan got writing and settled Yokohama

1500: 10
Exploring warriors caught by border expansions.

Fairly uneventful turns. Iron online next turn is biggest news. Ships only move 1 tile per turn.
Selected first build of Verul as temple because of experience in SG Tim01.
Front line city with that many mountains will need a temple for war sight and heal prevention.
Will be no problem to make into barracks instead.

@ Pied Piper, Did you upload the save to the submissions page here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm.php)? I noticed on the graph that our team has only made it to 1750BC. I think that this needs to be done evry turnset.

@ PP - we're researching Writing @ 10% because we wouldn't get it any (much...) faster at a higher rate.

I'll play this tomorrow morning, as long as I'm not dragged to Ikea, or somewhere worse....

Neil. :cool:

Piper's save uploaded.

Roster check:

eldar - up
Bede - on deck
Minute Man
Mab
Tubby Rower
Pied Piper

I think that the next city should go after the spices to the west on the southern coast. Then start filling in the south. I can't open the save but it looks like Entremont will be producing a settler soon. We also need to be skimming some settlers off of some of the other cities following Bede's plan to do settler spawn.

It looks to me like we might lose this incense if we don't act fast. I recommend we send the next settler to the marked spot to block the AI asap. The chinese already have spices so won't be as keen to settle near the other spices tile.
The spot isn't on a river, but has a good defensive position, bonus grass and lots of mountains (coal etc!), but the major advantage is immediate access to incense.

I'll play this tomorrow morning, as long as I'm not dragged to Ikea, or somewhere worse....

Neil. :cool:

I hope that isn't the new Ikea where you're likely to get crushed or stabbed! :eek:

I hope that isn't the new Ikea where you're likely to get crushed or stabbed! :eek:

It would be, except it's remaining closed 'until further notice'!!

Neil. :cool:

I like your thinking there Mab. In fact I almost made a comment in the notes about going 6 more tiles directly west and settling on that river, instead of following the dot map. Of course I would then have to add that it would most certainly be a bridge too far, way too far. Sometimes even 1 or 2 tiles further out can make all the difference in being able to successfully defend, or not; as we found out building Saint Lewis, twice, in SG Tim01. In this case we must be content to let the AI build it for us to take.

I left Alesia building an archer but it could be switched to swordsman, which is great to have if we need it but will trigger an early GA if used. I really wanted to make it a settler but I know Bede is itching for a fight. That is also why I started the barracks in the two other cities. If an archer rush is going to work it has to be done now. It may already be too late to get much more than the China spice city, and whatever city is by the incense.

While I am thinking about it, I am all for chopping any forest needed for shields to build barracks or other city improvement. The earlier in the game the better because of the exponential effect over time. We will be able to replant them soon enough. Especially chop any forest on Game tiles and irrigate for the extra fpt.

>>THE SAVE<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/Bede_SG006_BC1250_01.SAV)

Well, 1250BC, and we're still only 1 point behind the 'experts' of Team Offa!

A very nice set of turns, during which we:
- Gained 3 new techs!
- Gained a new contact!
- Built a new city, and have 3 Settlers out on the go!
- Connected Iron :hammer:!

Turn Log:
0 1500 Japan has Writing, but won't trade :( Nothing else to look out for, it seems. IT: Iron connected.
1 1475 Writing still extortionate. Whip Temple in Verulamium. IT: Entremont Settler->Curragh, Verulamium Temple->Rax
2 1450 IT: Alesia Archer->Settler. Richborough Worker->Rax.
3 1425 Writing will still cost all of our treasury. IT: Entremont Curragh->Settler. Camulodunum Rax->Settler.
4 1400 Gergovia founded, starts Temple (whip on growth). The Dyes are now secured. Writing drops in price, so I go searching for a deal; Mysticism+HBR for Writing+4g from Mongols. Sell to Hannibal for 95g, HBR to China for 50g. Research is now Phil at MAX (10 turns @ -7, but easily sustainable). IT: Mongols get Lit (popped no doubt!!), Maths is also available.
5 1375 400g gets us Maths from Hannibal. Sell to Japan for 276g. I can also buy Lit for a decent price, so I do so - 310g from Hannibal, again (he's got the best prices in town, baby!) So our free tech, should we get Philo first, will be something else. I'd go for Construction, as it's the most expensive and most tradeable.
6 1350 IT: Entremont Settler->Hmm decision? We can build the SoZ?! Ivory is nowhere to be seen though. Build a Gallic.
7 1325 IT: Alesia Settler->Archer. Lugdunum Rax->Archer. Hannibal establishes an Embassy with us.
8 1300 Contact with India, sell Writing for 37g.
9 1275 IT: Camulodunum Settler->Gallic.
10 1250 Great news… our exploring Warrior got booted north of a choke controlled by Carthage!

At the moment, I'm building Archers in small/low-shield cities as they are quicker to build. Once they get up to 7/8spt, they can build Gallics. 8 or 10spt is optimal.

Here is a piccie showing where the Settlers are headed (to settle on the arrowheads):
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Settlers_1250BC.jpg

Neil. :cool:

Great, great progress everybody.

Got it.

I'm leaning towards Polytheism for the Philo tech and building the Temple of Artemis.

1) The auto temples in captured or built towns are a major boost towards 100K
2) We don't need Education 'till we own the continent so the obsolesence will come late
3) When Education does come the populations of the auto temple towns will be large enough for "whipped" temples.

The value of Poly is less than Construction, true, but it is still eminently tradeable. The alternative would be to wait for Polytheism to come up in trade negotiations with a pre-build in the capitol.

The ToA is more costly than any of the Wonders now being built so once the knowledge comes up for trade the risk of losing a pre-build to the cascade is low.

Let me know what you all think.

We need to get our pre-build going, though. Thanks to the Mongols popping Lit, everyone we know (and probably most we don't, as well) are building the GL.

Surprised to see the Mongols settle the spices so soon and not the incense. Perhaps our next cities can be next door, pop a few temples and absorb them into the Celtic way of life. Until then we will need at least one unit in each city, including Verul, to prevent flipping.

As for the northern settler I advise three more turns of travel west to the edge of the lake. There is already a warrior next to the tile for MP. This location has no culture conflict whereas the other may flip from border contact with Chengdu. Chengdu should be razed and rebuilt 1 tile south to fit into our pattern.

Any trading done should be biased against helping Japan. Japan needs to be weak and should be our first victim after we get some ships. The productivity of this area will be huge due to the lack of corruption.

Wonder prebuild should be in Richborough, we can convert the barracks started there. The capital is my second choice since it is more useful as a source for settlers and military units since it already has a granary and barracks we are paying for each turn. The wonder should be in an east coast city.

Free research should be construction. It is more expensive but it also has other wonders that can be built if the AI builds TOA first. Once we do get Poly I would not like to trade it until we finish TOA.

I think we should plant some coastal cities (particularly near Izumo) to try and flip some Japanese towns. Flipping the one near the Iron would be particularly good.

Great turns Eldar! The trades were particularly good, I must remember to check who can buy tech when I go on a trading round.

Are we planning an imminent war with the Mongols or the Chinese? An early GA timed to help clinch the ToA would be good seeing as we can't switch to republic or monarchy. (we are playing the variant, right!) There's no need to put off the GA as we'll have to have it in despotism anyway IYSWIM.

Those gallic swords rock!

Concur with Construction after checking tech costs.

Also concur with not using the capitol for the ToA.

The more I think on it the less tempted I am to build the Temple though making a try for it in Richborough is the good choice. Richborough, however is only 2spt at the moment and will need to grow a bunch before tackling a 500 shield wonder that is only 1 tech away.

We will need Map Making and boats to go after Japan and lots of units for any towns we put over there as Japan is the current culture monster, though taking on Japan before they get to Samurai is important.

I think my plan is to work Entremont for Gallics and settlers, the other towns for archers and settlers and to close the gap between the current border and the Incense.
Piper's notion of moving the northern settler to the west fits well into that.

BTW, silks, not ivory, is the pre-req for the SoZ. Checked with m-b in the SGOTM Maintenance Thread. That makes for a whole 'nother discussion: do we want to build the Statue in Entremont? AC + Gallics will be nearly unstoppable. But it is eighteen turns or so to the Statue which is the equvalent of 4 GS's.

Keep those comments coming, I think advice and consent is needed from all the Druids here.

BTW, silks, not ivory, is the pre-req for the SoZ.

:confused: That's kooky. I haven't been able to look at the save recently enough to know where to build SoZ, but I think that it would be nice to have a silk statue of Zeus instead of the Ivory one of history!!

BTW, I was playing the Celts in a solo game one time and the Gaellic Swords upgrade to MDI with zero cost. I thought that something was wrong at first but they both have the same amount of shield-cost.

I wouldn't go with the upgrade, though. After our GA, though, we won't be able to build Gallics, if we have Feudalism: it sucks, but that's the way it is :(

A few more thoughts on the free tech (assuming we get it, of course!)

You can bet your bottom dollar that the AIs will, for the most part, be researching either Construction or Map Making. So Construction, if we go for it, will be worth a few turns' of research, and no techs. Currency, on the other hand, may well end up netting us Poly, MM, and Constr, in conjunction with Philo. So I'm changing my vote for the free tech to the least researched by the AI - Currency.

Neil. :cool:

I've seen Currency net big gains (pun intended) before too. That's usually the last AA tech that they'll go for. I'm with eldar. Let's get currency!

I'm leaning toward not building the ToA. It would be nice to have, but not quite nice enough to be worth the 500 shields. Particularly since we don't have a great place to build it unless we want to tie up Entremont. Maybe we can convince one of our neighbors to build it for us.

Not sure about the SoZ. It seems less impressive for the Celts because it basically just gives us more Gallics. OTOH, we can go to war with AC and archers and not trigger our GA. So I'm not sure whether it's worth building or not.

I like Currency as the free tech as well.

Sending the northern settler west seems like a good idea. I'm not sure about the southern settler - it seems like there ought to be something better to do than building fishing villages in the tundra. We'll get the dyes when Gergovia expands its borders anyway.

Trying for the incense is probably a good idea, but it makes me nervous to build a city that far away from our territory. I'm not sure the suggested spot is best - we could go a space N of there and be on the coast, or a space E and be on a hill on the river, and either would get the incense on border expansion. It's going to take us a while to connect roads anyway, so I don't see much point in trying to have it immediately. Or are we worried that somebody will poach the incense unless we settle right next to it?

I feel a little silly; if we can get construction then of course we could get currency. I got sidetracked by the poly choice. Currency gets my vote for the freebie. I will say that we should delay trading it once we get it so that we don't advance the AI too fast. We will want to trade it before they research it completely though.

The nicest thing about building the SoZ will be that we won't have to fight some other civ that has it. An AC may be equivalent to a GS but I would think that we would get more than 5 AC from the statue, unless we really speed up the AI research pace. Plus we get all the culture as well (100K goal) for a relatively cheap wonder that won't be strongly contested. And using the AC won't trigger our GA. I vote strongly for this proposal.

Though I doubt we can convert a Japanese city it would be great if we did. There is room for two cities on the coast between Rich and Ent. Do we want two here or only one, and if only one then where should it go? If two are desired then the locations are fixed. Let's decide which and rush a temple. The sooner this is done the more likely it will succeed.

Speaking of Rich, it will grow twice as fast as normal with the irrigated wheat. Just devote a worker to irrigate the surrounding plains in order to accomodate the growing population. If we don't get ToA then we get something else instead, the FP if nothing else. How many cities will we need to qualify for FP, is that still 10?

I wouldn't worry about the security of building a city by the Incense. Our roads already go halfway there. Building a connected road network is one of the most important things that workers can do, so lets make that a priority while we are still at peace. Personally I would prefer building on the river over there. I have never seen the AI build a city with culture borders that touch - unless they have no other room.

Was looking at the save and the area of Rich. We could pop rush a temple now for a relatively efficient 16 shield gain. With the border expansion this would reserve some tiles on the other continent that could be used to settle a city with barracks to act as our forward base during the Japan war.

For micromanagement, the shortfall of 11 grain will mean two turns of working just the plains after the whip (gains 2 shields in same number of turns), and then back to the wheat. Rich actually grows every 4 turns (not 5 as I first thought), so we should probably keep both workers there for quite a while.

The waste of shields in Ent next turn is just way too painful to see. Can we switch that to SoZ (only 15 turns, with growth) or even a library (5 turns) please?

Good thinking all. :salute: Let's keep it up.

Play has been delayed as AlanH is fixing a little problem in the C3C saves on the server. The issue relates to naval movement.

BTW, it is a good idea for everyone to subscribe to the SGOTM6 Maintenance Thread, if you haven't already. Because these games are modded occasional glitches occur and are reported there, as are the fixes if any.

Yep, I read it and still don't understand how it has/will affect us.

Did take a moment to make an expansion plan proposal. Everything inside the white border is roughly our productive core. Still some squatters we need to evict, or convert. The large harp symbol is immediate goal, the small symbol with #2 is a second generation fill city once we have security established and settler factories online. Cities outside this zone should be widely spaced and limited to controlling area (and resources) so as to not drive corruption into the core. Would be prudent to build second gen cities from the outside inward, as the situation warrants. Third generation can then be outside the core, if the game is still not won.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SG6TBcoreprop1.jpg

As I see it, after this current crop of settlers, there are only 5 core first gen cities left to build that do not have culture border conflict, or require ships. Plan accordingly. For an easy reference point, Osaka is 11 tiles directly east of our capital.

With regard to the development of the west, there are 9 tiles that need roads essential to the security and happiness of our cultured citizens. Only two are mountainous, but then again, the rest are hills and forest.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SG6westfront1.jpg

This "druid" agrees with most of the above, I usually go for currency anyway as soon as I get Maths cos I've noticed the AI often leave it till last, and those marketplaces are a handy improvement to have.
As for wonders, this is emperor right? That means we're up against lower build costs so we should get cracking on any important wonders as soon as poss. I don't know if we'll have the time to wait for Rich to grow, but Entremot is one of our best cities and it might be foolhardy to commit all its production to a wonder before we're ready.

Do we have embassies yet? They might provide a handy spying window in a few turns, once wonder prod starts up. Does everyone have that pop-up enabled?

We have one embassy, with Carthage; Hannibal established it with us, saving us the pennies :)

Nice plan, Piper. Everybody download and paste to the monitor please.
:mischief: ;) Orange harps?
And excellent divination from all.

I think I let Richborough start on the SoZ. If we get it, great, if we don't we have a prebuild for a library or university, or even ToA. It's far enough from the action that a barracks is a waste.

Take Currency for free tech, build military, sail our now +1 movement curraghs, develop tpwards the west.

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/Bede_SG006_BC1000_01.SAV)

In 1200 Japanese start the Pyramids.

In 1175 Philosphy comes in right on time and we learn Currency for free and start on Map Making.

In 1125 foudned Augustdorum on the river next to the Incense. I just hated to give up the river food bonus.

In 1100 Hannibal empties his treasury for Philosphy (496g). Everybody else in the world is broke.

Also in 1100 founded Ebarocum west of the lake

In 1075 Babylon completes the Pyramids. Mongols start the Library, Carthage the Library, and the MausHaus. No completions.

In 1050 Japanese start Temple of Artemis, as I expected they might, in Osaka, 4spt, due in 64, with a bunch of shields in the bin, must have swapped from something else. I also note the Temple at Osaka was built more a thousand years ago.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SGOTM6Bede1050.jpg

In 1025 buy a worker from India for 104g.

1000
There is a settler heading west from Camulodunum, a settler due in 4 from Camulodunum, and Entremont can switch to a settler when its sword is done.

There are a few trades to be done, Literature to India for example, and Poly from Japan. Lugdumunum is within a couple of shields of taking over the military build duties from Entremont, which could produce the ToA faster than Osaka as we have 3x the shields and potential for more. I'm tempted to go for it.

If we don't start the ToA at Entremont, then it is 7 turn Gallic settler producer. Building a Gallic in 4 from pop5 to 6 then a settler from pop5 to pop7.

I am going to make my pitch for forest preservation again. Chopping the silks forest at Alesia cost us a high gold, high shield field. If a chop were needed it could have been done in the west, but remember we have the equivalent of two bonus food fields with the city center and the irrigated game. Please keep that in mind, if you want the Druid Bede to be happy, leave his oak trees alone.

We have the muscle to start a dogpile on the Japanese who are the territorial and cultural leader right now. I'm inclined to do it. It would slow them down right now, pit everybody in the workld against them, and kill the tech pace every place but in the Celtic Realm. Just make sure to get Polytheism from them first. We wouldn't have to face any fighting for quite a while as everyone between us and them is sucked into the war, and when we learn Map Making and build a few galleys we can make a landing in force on their shores...

Nice moves Bede, I like that you did the MM in August. Verul should probably work the tree on the river though, although for one wasted shield instead of four I would rather just work the grasslands. Tell you what, I promise to plant a tree in every city when we learn Engineering. What I won't say is how long they last before getting chopped down. The silk tree will not be cut by me once it is replanted. BTW, Rich has two trees in the radius now so we probably don't want to mine any more plains over there.

Just a question on the war plans for now, did you want to build so many GS this early? I would think that you would prefer two archers instead of one GS from Ent since it has an even 10spt production. I would have thought that having one or two for emergencies and to put a little respect into the AI would be sufficient at this point.

Japan is obviously the top priority target but there are two chinese cities that probably should be razed and a Mongol one that could be taken over. Is there any requirement for reputation, are we allowed to declare war, and also, should we, if the situation for gain arises?

Perhaps we can start a few catapults soon? Perfer to build them in cities without barracks, Geo is the only reasonable place after the current build finishes.

It's been my experience that velocity outweighs mass so I really prefer GS's over archers despite the cost advantage of archers. Hence my preference for horsemen over archers when I can build them. Concur that catapaults are useful in any case.

Declaring war will not harm our reputation although it may affect attitude, so any time we feel the need to blood our swords, declare away. I would prefer keeping any cities we take as that is just one less settler we need to produce.

Mining two more plains at Richborough will put more gold in the treasury than working the trees on the islands or in the corner. Even without the ability to pay for improvements the added gold will support more buildings.

In towns without food bonuses it is best to work the grasslands for the population growth, at least until we hit the natural limit for the town.

May I suggest getting a Library in Entremont sooner rather than later? Libraries to follow suit in the rest of the core, too.

Well I was just concerned about triggering the GA, when did you want that to happen?

Fortunately most of our towns are on rivers, so the pop limit is 12. I suscribe to the growth is power philosophy, so I prefer to irrigate first where possible and then mine. More than 5fpt surplus is where I tend to draw the line of diminishing returns.

I also shave off workers when there is no developed tile for new pop. For instance, the next build for Verul should be a worker. There really should be another worker devoted to the road west.

A dozen catapults makes for a good initial build set. Keeps the contractors happy and a big help in keeping our losses down. All those archers we have are also good for free defensive shots when they retire from active duty.

I also would like to start building libraries sooner rather than later. If we can stay out of war that would help. We have most of western core area. Japan is the big target for our military ambitions. We have much to gain there, as opposed to a single productive city each from Mongols and China.

Hangchow must be razed I feel. The only tile over there not on a river. The AI certainly has a talent for building this way. Chengdu can be a keeper but I would not be unhappy with an autoraze.

War with Japan is worth an earlier GA, but only if it is on the other continent. Fighting them on our side should only be done with archers, until we can bring the fight to them. With reduced naval movement any ships will probably be best employed as land bridges. If we do finish SoZ before ships are built that will give us a chance to delay using our GS over there.

I like the dogpile idea on Japan as we will benefit the most. Did we want Japan to finish ToA in Osaka before we take it?

If I am not mistaken:

Minute Man - up
Mab - on deck
Tubby Rower
Pied Piper
eldar
Bede
___________

I really do like the score graph comparing our progress to the other teams but remember to only compare with those teams playing C3C. Also don't get too concerned with score since culture (100K!) is what really matters.

I agree with the library idea. I think that the ship movement bug was fixed. I haven't looked at the save in quite a while so I can't comment on any of the wonder builds.

I think that the Chinese & Mongolian cities should be left alone for right now until the Japanese are diminished a little. How soon is map-making coming in? We should also start some settler builds before the Japan war to fill in some of the autorazing that's going to happen in Japan. I think that we should target the pop >2 cities first but the AI might not be as selective.

Took a look at the number of pages each team has posted. Noticed that the staff team is a little slow out of the starting gate. We seem to be doing slightly less than average and with more turns done. Could it be that other teams are having a difficult time reaching consensus? Or do they just have more brilliant strategies to discuss? So far I am fairly happy with our progress, but do wonder what the barbarians are up to. Anybody seen any?

So far I am fairly happy with our progress, but do wonder what the barbarians are up to. Anybody seen any?
I'm happy with our progress. I think it is mainly due to the divine nature of our leader :lol:

M-B said something in the maintenance thread about the barbarians, let me see if I can find it.... Ah here it is
This was in response to team Offa's Klarius that was curious about the lack of barbarian activity....
I can't respond to the Barbarian question adequately now. If you still think that this is a problem then we can discuss it in the first spoiler. Inspection of various saves have not quickened my pulse any, wheras the water movement cost bug certainly did!

Got it. Will probably play this evening.

What does everybody else think about Bede's idea of starting a war with Japan ASAP? It does seem to me that if we're planning on fighting them soon, now might be a good time to start the dogpile, since they can't reach us yet. Then we can either build some boats (once MM comes in) and invade, or just let the AI bash each other for a while.

So far I am fairly happy with our progress, but do wonder what the barbarians are up to. Anybody seen any?

The exploring warriors saw barbarians both to the north and west during my first set of turns. There was also that barb camp near Alesia. So there definitely are at least some around. Maybe the AI is taking care of them for us?

I agree with the early war in principle but have noticed I'm due to play soon. I have no probs fighting a defensive war (as that is what I usually do!) but am pretty weak on offensive combat. If the war turns ugly then I may need more time to play my turns so I can check with you guys before making any lame decisions.

OK little panic over! As for other teams post counts, I read the X-team threads last time (non-player!) and they have a constructive style interspersed with a bit of non-game issues. So far so good. One other team that shall remain nameless (but let's just say I was part of it) had MANY posts from the "leader" basically shouting everyone down and spitting the dummy out a lot. I'm so relieved that our noble leader (male Boudica) has offered to take a few noobs under his wing. Makes the game more relaxed and gets the best out of everyone.

Anyway.... let's open up a can of whoop @ss!

My notion of the early war with Japan was a "Let's him and you fight, I'll watch." strategy.

Random thoughts:

1) Japan has to cross an entire continent to reach us.
2) They are the culture monster and need to come down a peg or two.
3) We have the economic muscle to hire evrybody against them.
4) Once Map Making comes in (~17 turns IIRC) we can load GS's, catapults, settlers and workers into boats and send them across the straits for a beach head.
5) War Weariness is not an issue in our available governments so eternal war should not bother us, especially if it is against somebody who can't reach us.
6) Looking at the map it appears to me that Japan and the Celts are the only nations with decent lands to work with, the only exception might be Sumer who I believe is north of India. So the taking of other towns are going to be fraught with issues like slow pop growth. That's where the ToA will help us big time, no need to sacrifice population for rushed culture
7) I don't think we will be researching the branches of the tech tree that lead to Education for some time. All we need from the top o' the tree is Theology for Cathedrals. Then make a beeline along the bottom to Cavalry.
8) On the barbarian thing I think it relates to the map, a crowded pan'. The other guys priortrize barbarian hunts so they have been pretty well eliminated from the main portion of the map. Our warrior exploring north of Carthage did find a village and popped barbs who disappeared into the jungles to the east.
9) As far as a "noble leader" (male Boudica? :blush: :rolleyes: ) it is in the nature of things that the more thoughtful the team the better the leadership. You guys are good at this so it makes me look better.

I imagine that Japan will also be getting Mapmaking soon. If most of their units are walking over to us at that time then they can't come across on ships when they do build some a dozen turns from now.

Just a sanity check here but I went into the save and tried to arrange alliance with Carthage as that seemed the most appropriate civ to start with. Even though he is very polite, he refused. So I talked with our creditors and gave the researchers a holiday, Carthage still won't fight with us. Does his price come down if we are actually at war, or if Japan has troops in his territory? I tried the other civs but realized we don't have embassies with anyone else except Japan. Maybe we should spend some gold for this.

Mab, I would not worry too much, it is well over 20 tiles through difficult terrain for India to even get to Augustodurum, I think a horse could just make it in 20 turns. Feel free to stop and ask for tactical advice at any time regardless of the situation. For instance, India may have an exploring unit or two that is closer to Augustodurum. BTW, I thought that city was supposed to be on the hill, not in the remains of a wasted forest. Wait till Bede hears about those poor trees.

Carthage still won't fight with us. Does his price come down if we are actually at war, or if Japan has troops in his territory?

Actually, I think our rep's been trashed (see below). So he won't take gpt.

...Augustodurum. BTW, I thought that city was supposed to be on the hill, not in the remains of a wasted forest. Wait till Bede hears about those poor trees.

Bede founded it. :lol:

Now, on with the report:

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/Bede_SG006_BC0750_01.SAV)

0 - 1000 BC

After looking at the game a bit, I definitely like the idea of dogpiling Japan. They're the most powerful (known) civ, they have land we can use, and they can't do anything more threatening than stand on the other side of the channel and shout insults at us until they develop Map Making. So operation "Setting Sun" is put into action.

First, trade Poly from Japan. Unfortunately, he won't give it to us for anything less than Currency. So I grit my teeth and do it. Then I inform Tokugawa that his miserly ways are an affront to the Celtic people, and that we'll be dropping by to claim some of his territory ... er, whenever we get around to building things that float.

Establish embassy with India. Trade Gandhi Philo for 112 gold + MA vs. Japan.

Establish embassy with Iroquois. Trade Hiawatha Math + 65 gold for MA vs. Japan. In the process of the negotiations, discover that he won't accept gpt. It looks like our rep's already been trashed! I went back later and looked at the initial save, and it was already gone at the start of my turns, so not sure when it happened.

Establish embassy with Mongols. Discover that Karakorum is building the Great Library, due in 35 turns. Trade Temujin Philo for 23 gold + MA vs. Japan.

Give Hannibal 300 gold (ouch!) for MA vs. Japan. But it was either that or give him Currency, which doesn't seem worth it.

China has no contact with Japan, so can't invite him to the party.

Now for a decision on ToA. I'm coming around to the belief that it would be pretty darn useful, and we have enough other cities with food bonuses that we don't really need Entremont to build settlers. It looks like Karakorum might have enough of a head start to beat us if they cascade from the GL, so I decide it's worth the dough to investigate Carthage. GL is due there in 33 turns.

It's going to be close, but after staring at the screenshots for a while, I decide that we do have a good shot at winning the race, but we need to start now. So Entremont switched to ToA. Due in 44, but that'll drop. I think getting another worker or two over there is a high priority, though, as it's just about out of improved spaces to work.

Finally, I shuffle a couple of units around to have some forces ready near the coast for when (if?) Japan does show up. Change Gergovia to a worker, as we have a pretty serious worker shortage. Also note that we still have four unmet civs, so need to do more exploring.

OK, after all of that (and more than an hour), I finally press enter and start my turns. :)

1 - 975 BC

Wouldn't you know it, India has Map Making now. Right after all that trading I just did. :wallbash: Well, at least he won't be trading it to Japan anytime soon.

Trade Lit + 104 gold to Gandhi for MM. Trade MM to Carthage and get the 300 gold we just gave him back. Trade Philo to Iroquois for 96 gold and a worker. Buy a worker from the Mongols for 120 gold. Research set to Code of Laws.

We're not anywhere near ready to invade Japan, so I don't start any galleys. Besides, our two good coastal cities are building wonders right now...

3 - 925 BC

For future reference, the plains 2 spaces NE of Entremont, even though it's on the river, is not actually on the river. :hmm: Waste a couple of worker moves finding this out.

4 - 900 BC

Burdigala founded. Buy an Iroquois worker for 108 gold.

IT - our warrior N of Carthage gets killed by barbs. :( He was even standing on a mountain.

5 - 875 BC

Entremont is threatening to riot, so lux to 20%. Whip a temple in Augustodurum. Not entirely sure whether whipping a temple in Agedincum is worth it, but decide to go ahead and do it.

6 - 850 BC

Whip a temple in Eboracum. Note that India has Poly now. A couple of the AIs have money, but about all we have to sell is Poly and Currency, and I'd like to wait a bit and see if Construction comes on the market.

IT - our warrior near Japan is attacked by a Japanese warrior (and wins), then a swordsman (and loses). So now we have no exploring warriors.

8 - 800 BC

Orleans just completed the Statue of Zeus. :gripe: Change the Richborough build into a library.

Japan is now willing to talk peace. Even though we haven't done anything to him, he'd be willing to give his entire treasury (23 gold) for it.



Notes: There are two settlers en route. The northern one should found where he's standing. The other one is headed two spaces to the SW.

Still no contact with the other four civs. Don't know where they are.

I'm pretty sure we can beat either Karakorum or Carthage to the ToA. Especially if Hannibal doesn't get his hands on any luxuries anytime soon.

We have a couple of galleys being built. Should probably start thinking about when would be a good time to invade Japan.

Pictures coming in a few minutes....

Here are the cities I got to see:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SG6_Bede_Delhi.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SG6_Bede_Salam.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SG6_Bede_Karak.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SG6_Bede_Carth.jpg



And our core at 750 BC:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SG6_Bede_750BC.jpg

Roster check:

Mab - up!
Tubby Rower - on deck
Pied Piper
eldar
Bede
Minute Man

An hour to press return? Finally someone that plays slower than me. Will have to call you the 60 minute man from now on. BTW, this is a 100k culture game, it is never wrong to whip a temple, unless you lose the city. To get a lux good inside the radius is an extra incentive.

Too bad about SoZ, perhaps Rich can take over ToA and let Ent build a library and get back to doing what it does best. (settler/GS factory)

Oh good, some pictures are up. Nice turns there MM. Another luxury online soon. Looks like China is trying an end run with a settler past Lug. Must throw up a unit wall to stop that until we build that north city.

I know that I would build two boats and at least 4-6 catapults before invading Japan, but then I am used to a higher difficulty level. Maybe the RNG will be more forgiving at this level.

Note we can drop off 4 units per turn with each boat! It's like having a Galleon (except we can't transport full Armies....)

Just checked the save, both at 1000BC and 750BC, and there is nothing to worry about the trading reputation. Apparently the other nations have spies in our Exchequer as our credit is good so long as we are running a surplus, but not if we are running a deficit. If the reputation had been "trashed" the other party to the deal would have told us why, as in "We remember what you did to the Mongols!"

Also, you can't enter into an alliance until you are actually at war, or the other guy is at war with the victim.

Good call on the temple whips in the newer towns, should have pointed out that as soon as new town grows to 2 whip the temple.

Need to pull some workers into roading the forests at Entremont then add them to the city (natices only please) as the forests get their roads or the grasslands are mined.

Our progress is good but there are other teams with steeper curves. Not sure that means anything though as the curves don't count "kultcha" It may be time to put the arhcers and a cat or two to work on the Chinese. It will add to our empire faster than we can build settlers, I think.

Also, you can't enter into an alliance until you are actually at war, or the other guy is at war with the victim.
In the immortal words of the late Johnny Carson, "I did not know that!"

I think that Mad-Bax or Alan is working on a graph for culture instead of Fraxis score. Which would be nice for a game where everyone HAS to play the variant.

So the French will have Ancient Calvary running around. Have we met them yet? Is there another landmass anywhere for the unmet civs to be hiding out?

@ mab, take your time. Think things through. and you'll do fine. I'm still learning myself and in these succession games I think that you tend to do better because you only play 10 turns. So don't worry about screwing things up and take your time. If you have questions stop and ask.

EDIT:::How many shields per turn is Richboro making in comparision to ENtremont? That could help decide whether to switch the ToA build to Rich. or not.

An hour to press return? Finally someone that plays slower than me. Will have to call you the 60 minute man from now on.

:lol: Well, there were trades to make, a war to start, a dogpile to arrange... and I did spend a lot of time trying to calculate whether we could actually compete for the ToA. I do play slowly, though.

Just checked the save, both at 1000BC and 750BC, and there is nothing to worry about the trading reputation. Apparently the other nations have spies in our Exchequer as our credit is good so long as we are running a surplus, but not if we are running a deficit.

That's good to know. I noticed that they were reluctant to accept gpt, so I tried the test where I asked for 10 gold and offered a couple of gpt in return. They wouldn't take it, so I figured that meant our rep had been trashed. I didn't realize running a deficit had the same effect.

So the French will have Ancient Calvary running around. Have we met them yet? Is there another landmass anywhere for the unmet civs to be hiding out?

Well, in theory this is a "contiguous pangea". I am a little surprised that I didn't find any new civs, but the continent is so big that our curragh still has a long way to go to get around the whole thing.

EDIT:::How many shields per turn is Richboro making in comparision to ENtremont? That could help decide whether to switch the ToA build to Rich. or not.

Without looking at the save, I think Entremont is making 12 or so spt, while Richborough is more like 7. I think we definitely need to build the ToA in Entremont, or we risk losing it to a cascade from the GL. I just hope there isn't an unmet civ working on it...

I'm here!
Man it's annoying not being able to check this during the day :mad: My last job didn't block any websites so I got used to skiving off on here!

Congrats on the excellent trades and dogpiling 60MM, I'm always reluctant to give tech away but this time the only civ able to buy it was the one we're all at war with anyway.... nice work!

I'm not too worried about losing SoZ to the french, we've not even met them yet so they'll have to send all those free (but soon to be obsolete) AC throught everyone else to get to us. Toa is priority #1, I'll do a few calculations before my turns start and post the results here later.
I won't be able to play tonight (well not all 10turns) but will give a progress report asap.

@MM why did you only play 8 turns?

@Bede, Boudica was the only druid I could think of and she's female so I thought I should emphasize the "MALE" part!

Toa is priority #1, I'll do a few calculations before my turns start and post the results here later.

FWIW, my initial calculation (when I investigated cities at the start of my turn) was that Karakorum, with growth, would finish ToA in approx. 30-35 turns (20-25 from now), if it cascaded from the GL. Carthage had slightly more of a head start but less growth potential (especially since they needed an entertainer already), so will probably be a bit slower. And of course we only need to beat one of the two to get ToA.

I think we can beat Carthage, at least, but only if we use Entremont (which has probably accumulated close to 150 shields so far, so changing it to a library would be a big waste). I'm just a little worried about a cascade from one of those civs we haven't met yet.

@MM why did you only play 8 turns?

I played the full ten (the save is at 750 BC). But nothing exciting happened on the last two, so I left them out of the report.

Looks like China is trying an end run with a settler past Lug. Must throw up a unit wall to stop that until we build that north city.

Missed this earlier. The northern settler I mentioned is already in position to found that city.

Mab, I know war is not your thing but there is an opportunity here for some aggressive war prep "Maneuvers" wrt China.

MM already has a settler in position up north but China will still send their settler/spearman that way. Most likely one tile north of Lug. LET THEM THROUGH. But before you take your first turn you must send an archer pair out of Lug and across the river, just not to that tile. After China advances then send out another archer pair 1 tile NW and move the first archer pair to the tile China came from, to block them INSIDE our territory. After that you can play with them like a cat with a mouse, demand that they leave turn after turn until they actually declare war. Hopefully you will not have let them move into any good defensive terrain when this happens.

ALSO, there is another settler on its way to the green valley SW of Verul. Track them with the archers from Verul and Alesia, since MP not needed, but not with units from cities further west. The warrior on the mountain may also be used since those workers are not at risk before job completion. Connecting the 1 tile to Ebora should take precedence over the rest of the west road.

It looks to me like a war with China in the latter half of your turns would be extremely prudent. If you start now you may get them to declare on you.

Not sure I see any reason to "cat and mouse" the Chinese. Just position a couple of troops to wahck the settler pair when the other forces are in place to hit Chengdu. Just make sure we don't have anybody in their territory when we declare.

We will need at least two cats if we want to limit casualties to our archers, however. Though using the Gallics to inaugurate our Golden Age will probably guarantee us the ToA. We are close enough to the Middle Ages that starting it now is not that bad an idea. I have looked at the tech cost curve using CivAssist and the last AA techs are as costly as MA techs on a standard map. (Costs are a function of map size and number of opponents and may have been enhanced as part of the "equalization process" between C3C and 1.29/PTW.)

@Mab, Some things to remember about tactics:

1) Keep your eye on the prize. Do not scatter your forces.
2) Do not chase stray enemy troops unless they threaten to do damage elsewhere. Let the garrison troops at home deal with any incursions.
3) Speed kills. Play deliberately.
4) Speed kills. Hit and move on. Leave the wounded to heal and provide garrisons if necessary. Keep the healthy on the march.
5) Have fun playing Patton!

I only suggest the cat and mouse game for several turns because, quite frankly, we are not quite ready for war. We have exactly ZERO catapults for starters. Also any serious retaliation from China will fall outside her turn set.

May as well delay while we place our troops in position. Declaring only to kill a single settler seems like a waste to me. Send a fast GS over to the other settler moving south. Move main attack force, Get in position, then strike; don't advertise our intent and give China a chance to respond.

Based on the approval of GS usage, I put together the following order of operations you may find useful as a guide (should you choose to accept this mission):
---
Primary target is Chengdu (on the hill), Shantung is secondary.
Killing both settlers is mandatory and at your convenience.
---
Move warrior two tiles north into Ebora for MP duty.
Rush a catapult in Ebora after the pop growth next turn.
Move the warrior/archer/catapult two tiles north, then 1 tile east next to Chengdu.
Get the other GS into this stack if possible.
(bump lux for a turn and move MP from Calum to Ent)
Time approach of archer group from Lug to occupy tile south of Chengdu, approaching from the south, at the same time other group approaches from the East.
Hills have a defense bonus, as do attacks across rivers.
---
Expect the main counterthrust against Ebora and be prepared to send newly built units along the mountain road to reinforce this area. Just don't strip the entire East defenses.
---
Lug can be micromanaged for 4fpt/7spt to give archer in 3 turns with the same growth rate.
Catapults should also be built in the cities Aged, Burd (after temple rush), and Rich (after library), since these cities do not have barracks.
---
Personally I would delay the use of a GS until absolutely necessary. It may be necessary against Chengdu with only 1 catapult.
---
Good luck Mabellino, this tape will now self destruct.

Good planning, Piper.

I only suggest the cat and mouse game for several turns because, quite frankly, we are not quite ready for war. We have exactly ZERO catapults for starters.

Yeah, sorry about that. I saw the comments about building catapults, but it completely slipped my mind during my turns. Not entirely sure where I would have built them, though, since all of our cities with any halfway decent production were otherwise occupied.

Move warrior two tiles north into Ebora for MP duty.
Rush a catapult in Ebora after the pop growth next turn.

Watch the unhappiness if you do this...I did just whip a temple there about four turns ago.

I'm also not entirely sure I see the point of fighting a war with China right now - invading Japan seems more rewarding than picking off a Chinese city or two, and we are already at war with Japan. Keep in mind that China isn't involved in the dogpile (no contact with Japan), so they probably have lots of spare military at the moment.

I guess the question is if after taking two towns and two settlers will China be willing to talk peace? A nice short war. I could go either way on the war issue if it wasn't for the other settler headed south, that I think really needs to be stopped, or China becomes more than a minor annoyance. Getting the spices and a few slaves and promotions is an added incentive. Plenty of benefits, multiple short term objectives, yep, looks like it could be a nice short war. The key is to keep it short so that Operation Puddle Jump can proceed on schedule.

Ok I'm playing now. I've read and re-read the above posts and will come back here if I need advice.

It looks like eldar & I are here eagerly awaiting to help/analyze.

I'm certainly here, but I'm starting GOTM40.

I am still doing CotM9, think I may try 100K goal, as I am only recently out of the AA. Spaceship may be an option too, never did that in Civ3.

@Mab: Forgot to mention that you may want to send a worker across the channel to the cow with the galley that is almost done.

Houston we have a problem!

Here's my turn log so far:
Turn 0 (750BC)

Move troops as suggested earlier. Operation Cat & Mouse begins.

IBT
Chinese move opposite direction! Darn!
India and Japan sign a peace treaty.

Turn 1
Alesia builds archer -> catapult in 5
Cam builds archer -> archer in 5
Eboracum borders expand
Cataractonium founded -> catapult in 10
Workers complete projects and are now roading and mining Entremot + Rich to increase prod.
Pop rush catapult in Ebor
Everyone except Chinese and India still at war with Japan.

IBT
Chinese now have 3 greedy settlers with their feet on our land.
Mongols send a settler from west too.

Turn 2
Lug builds worker -> gallic in 6t
George builds galley -> archer in 5

Aaaagh! The French have done it again! Paris builds ToA! :mad: :mad: :mad:
Trondheim builds Great Lighthouse
Washington builds Mausoleum of Mausollos

I stopped play here to let you know. I think a Lib or market place is the way to go in Ent, but both are a huge waste of shields. Since research is low a lib isn't as important, BUT it gives culture and will double up quickly. A market gives more cash and happy folk... hmmm tough one!

Go for the Market, it's the most expensive build we have available.
As for the French... they are sure asking for it, once we work out where they darned well are!!

Are there no other wonders we could build? Just a question. Otherwise I'd say market too.

TGL due in 15t but all the others are building it.
I think market then lib after (maybe squeeze a GS in between)

Er... the Library. Which I'm certain we'll end up losing, but... ooh... 6 culture per turn?

I'd also tell China to leave. They might go ahead and declare. I'm thinking that we should have enough military but without looking at the save I'm not sure.

Switch to the GL, we might as well swing for it.

The Great Library??? I'd go ahead and try get China to declare then take out something fairly small with a GS to trigger our golden age.. That will reduce the # of turns til the GL is produced. How does that sound??

I thought we had a chance at GL, but I am not good at predicting these things. I also think that the far civs may be on steroids or somethin after reading the Maintenance thread.

Not sure GA will help our capital's production rate much.

TR you're a genius! I keep forgetting about the wonders of GAs.
I'll keep you posted

Mab

I know our illustrious leader isn't around, but I'm sure he'd jump up and down a bit like :gripe: <-- this if we hosed our GA at such an early age, just for the GL.

I also think that the far civs may be on steroids or somethin after reading the Maintenance thread.Yeah Joan should look like a female wrestler!!! :lol:

France is currently sounding very scary! I say we find her, and get a dogpile on her.

Well I have to go. The GS idea was just that an idea. I don't know if we even have a chance at the GL and OH MY would that suck if we did waste our GA on a wonder race that we lost..............
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I don't know what to do.... Good luck. I have to leave work now. I'll check up on things tonight sometime.

Whoa, good thing I checked on here, China moved out but are now annoyed. GS are getting fat and lazy but are confined to barracks for the time being!

Looks like I may be too late, but I'd recommend against a GA just for the purpose of getting the GL - Entremont is already working a lot of 2-shield squares, so the benefit will be minimal. I also suspect that Karakorum will beat us to the GL - if we have money to spare, you might want to investigate it and find out for sure. But I'd go with a library in Ent and get back to building military.

I know our illustrious leader isn't around, but I'm sure he'd jump up and down a bit like :gripe: <-- this if we hosed our GA at such an early age, just for the GL.

Too bad about the French. C'est l