SGOTM6 - Celts. Team jeffelammar.

Welcome to your team thread for SGOTM06. I hope you enjoy the game.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM6-START.jpg

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Celts
World size - 100 wide by 130 high.
Difficulty Emperor (approximately)
Landform Contiguous Pangea

Here are a number of links you might find useful.

The Constitution (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1733966&postcount=61)
GOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=71788)
Upload a Save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm.php)
Download a save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php)
SGOTM06 Maintenance Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=110909)

This Months' sponsored variant is Cultural Celtic Communists the rules for which are as follows.

1. The only allowed governments are despotism and communism.
2. You must win by 100K victory condition.

Your save has been uploaded to the server and will become available to you on the 7th February.

How exciting! Welcome new members!

Hello Team,
Whomp here. It looks to me like a pretty shield intensive spot right off the top. 3 BG's this side of the river 4-5 total bg's, hill, 2 chops. It looks like it's going to be a pretty fertile core around this area. Lake I assume? Did anyone see Sir Pleb's spreadsheet? It may be a good thing to have and it seems soooo much simpler than Offa's.

I look forward to running with you guys. Let's have some fun!

Just a heads up I mentioned to M-B I will be out of town Wed.-Sun. and not able to focus civ.

I did check out the spreadsheets, but I am too lazy to do something so intensive, most likely. Initially, I am thinking worker two N and settler one N one NE, with possible change based on what the worker sees. I can't think of any way we would be able to find out whether we can work the cow early on, so it seems best to abandon it for the time being, and game are good but wheat is better for faster growth right at the start.

Checking in. Welcome to everyone. I'll post thoughts on the start tomorrow.

Just a warning, I've only played C3C twice now, so please be patient if I accidently suggest strategies that are PTW specific.

Greetings ... reporting for duty.

Jeffelammer - that means you've played once more than I have :-)

The only C3C game I've played was COTM 09, which I managed to win, though only just, via diplomacy of all things .... I saw my space race was going to lose out to another civ's domination.

Will be looking to take the lead from the more experienced players, so feel free to suggest STRONGLY

@Bed_Head:
You don't think we should place our city 2 NW? I know it takes a few turns to grow (10, Isn't it?) but then we had a great position for the city, with Wheat and Game, and a minimum of 2 BG's (N and E of start pos).

At the least, I would say we move NW first - get a nice view of the land, as it were.

I agree worker N. Do we then mine BG?, and then go N and irrigate wheat? What would our truns look like for the mining and irrigation - would we irrigate wheat too early, perhaps, in which case we could road the mined BG first, then go to the wheat.

BTW - in my first attempt at foggazzing, it would SEEM that the forest square 2W,1NW has a bit of blue on it ... I'm thinking river. The Forest S1, SE2 looks to have tundra below it...

Regards tactics, what are you thinking we should go for first? Early culture that cumulates, or massive expansion, and then getting a HUGE number of cities?

CiaO 4 NoW

Getting that quick growth right away is terribly important, as it sets the pace for the rest of the game. We grow a bit faster, then we get a settler out faster. If it were a cow instead of a game, I wouldn't argue with you. However, it is a game forest, which means that for quite a few turns it will simply be acting as a bonus grassland. And, assuming that we do settler where I suggested, the worker will want to go straight to the wheat and begin irrigating, to get growth to size two in six turns instead of seven, with one wasted food.

We are all about expansion early on. In our core, we may want a few temples for happiness purposes that will also get 1000 year double early on, but our main goal is expansion and land grab.

Thanks for the response. Like I said, I'm here to lern, but I don't want to be a total passenger :-)

No-one else with any responses?

I don't know but for some reason tile 3NE seems like it raps around a lake to me. Would it make sense to have the worker hit that mountain NE to gaze a bit. It may see a possible cow and wheat start possibilityafter 10.
Is that too late if we go worker mountain ne, bg w, mine, road, wheat?

I am a little unclear on what you are saying, and reading my beginning again, I see some room for clarification. So I'll just go over my ideas again, and hopefully that would answer your questions.

First turn: Worker N. Depending upon what is seen, the settler move may change. I think the worker will only reveal a grassland W and a plains sugar E. So, settler NE seems likeliest to me at this time.

Second turn: Worker N to wheat. Again, it depends upon what is seen, but settler N seems likeliest to me.

Third turn: Worker irrigate. Found Entremont, unless there is another food bonus visible.

Seventh turn: Worker finishes irrigation. SirPleb apparently does something I hadn't considered, and would move to irrigate an adjacent food bonus if there is one before roading. So possibly a move to irrigate next turn, or begin roading.

Ninth turn: Entremont grows to size two one turn faster because of initial wheat irrigation. Growth is the most important thing in the early game without argument.

Again, a lot of this is dependent upon what we see with scouting, and may even turn out to be the wrong move based on what our initial warrior scouting reveals. However, based on what we can see now, this plan would get us the best growth of any option, so this is the safest course of action.

By the way, no one needs to say "thanks for the response" or anything similar. This is a team, we are supposed to discuss, think, and decide as a group, and if part of the group aren't being included, there is something wrong.

I have seen that the saves are supposed to be available (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=2539660#post2539660)

Anyone got it yet (anyone know where to get it? :) )

Jeffelammer - I think we need to confirm our opening gambit, discuss our turn orders, and consider getting going?

Is it me, or are there only 4 of us that have "reported in" ? I haven't seen denyd or CKS..


CiaO

Hello to all, just checking it.

I've played quite a few C3C games and am in the process of submitting my second 100K culture game for the HOF (on chieftain however). The number one thing I've learned is the key to winning 100K games in getting as many cities as possible as quickly as possible and getting the Temple of Artemis. With ToA, every city starts with a temple. Unlike at chieftain, we'll probably be in a tougher land grab and will need more than a couple of defenders.

As the Celts we are Agricultural & Religious and start with Pottery & Ceremonial Burial, two of the cheaper techs. If we meet someone early, we'll probably have to trade 2 for 1 to make a deal. I saw mention of pop-rushing in an different thread and we'll want to consider after our core is developed, but lets try to keep those citizens working early in the game.

I would suggest sending the worker 1NW to the mountain. That will give a much better picture of the surrounding lands. A couple of things about C3C and the agricultural. Cities on rivers get an extra food in the city center and granaries are 1/2 price (we can also treat desert tiles as plains when irrigated, though that's not an issue at present), so we need to be sure to settle on a river (fresh water). I'm thinking we might try using one food bonus (game, wheat & cow) per city for our first three cities. On emperor, we'll want to try for an early luxury if possible to ease the need for either MP's or luxury taxes. Since we have to stay in despotism, I don't see any reason to go for the republic slingshot (for those new to C3C, the first to philosophy gets a free tech, so researching code of laws, the philosophy often gets republic free). We should probably research up the bottom path to mysticism, then polytheism. If we happen to get an SGL (I didn't see any mention if they are on or off), we will need to weigh ToA or Pyramids. For those new to C3C, I'm looking for an post by SirPleib :worship: on the changes from PTW to C3C and when I find it I'll post a link.

To recap my suggestions:

1. Worker NW to check out lay of the land before moving settler
2. One food bonus each for first three cities
3. Look for local luxury to hook up asap
4. Research Mysticism then Polytheism
5. Initial build would be warrior, warrior, granary, settler

Welcome Denyd.

Hmm - nice bit of thinking ... I wasn't aware of the C3C racial changes - that obviously has quite an impact. What get's us ToA? Mysti or Poly? I'll go and check.

Jeff - what is our turn roster looking like. As I recall, we have 24 hours to pickup, and 72 hours to play, and we have to play 5 turns (except start, who plays 10?).

Given that Whomp is unavailable from Wed to Sun, should we start with him, or move him to 4th in order?

Given my inexperience, I would rather not take the start position.

Oh yes, are we going to discuss our turns heavily ( I had that habit in the last succession game I played ((a few years ago, it should be said)) ).

I like the swinging idea of the resources... should we be building the city next to resouces, as Bed_Head7 pointed out, to get our resources as early as possible? That seems like the logical step forwards?

By the way, if we download from here:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php

Will that launch our "start" ? I don't want to download and then find I have "got it".

CiaO

Jeff - what is our turn roster looking like. As I recall, we have 24 hours to pickup, and 72 hours to play, and we have to play 5 turns (except start, who plays 10?).


Actually, we've been doing 10 turns except the start who does 20.

My take on the starting position.
1. The Cow seems to me to be a red-herring. I see no quick way to get our worker over there so it is merely a nicity rather than a power square.

2. I agree completely with Denyd. Worker NW will tell us more about the surrounding territory than anything else.

3. The most promising start to me seems to be 2NW. It gains both the wheat and the game and stays on the river.
At first the game will act as a free bonus grassland while the wheat + our trait will give us the food we need. When we get another city we chop the forest and gain the needed extra food.

4. Since we cannot go to any government other than communism, I agree with researching the bottom path.

5. Combat: I think we should definately set up for a warrior -> Gallic Sword upgrade. With a large Pangea map, we may even be able to sustain the Gallic rush into the early middle ages. As Denyd points out, our primary goal is lots of cities as soon as possible.

6. I haven't played with ToA at all but it does seem to be worth trying for. It doesn't seem to last very long, but if we concentrate on war-mongering our way along the lower MA path, we can prolong our ToA time and will be able to pick the time we trade for Education.

7. Golden Age - I think we have to plan on our GA being triggered with a GS in the mid to late AA. No sense trying to save it for a long time.

8. Research - As I said, I agree with starting along the bottom path. The big question is whether we want to accelerate or decellerate AI research.
A. Accellerate - try to drive to Communism asap.
B. Decellerate - we can't research fast, so don't let them either.
We should make that decision.

9. Roster: As I always do, I suggest it be in the order on MB's signup page.
jeffelammar
bed_head7
denyd
Whomp
CKS
Wanderer
At that point the only question is who goes first. I am willing to go. Denyd did last month and did a great job. Anyone else is welcome to say they want the first turn set. In this game it will probably be critical.

Note to the new folks: Even though my name is on the team, I haven't really been acting as leader. This is more of a democracy or republic than anything. All comments are welcome.

By the way, if we download from here:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php

Will that launch our "start" ? I don't want to download and then find I have "got it".

CiaO
No it won't launch our "start".

In fact it is perfectly fine for all of us to download. Just do not issue ANY move orders unless it is your turn. Any move would be considered gaining spoiler info.

Later in the game it will often be valuable for multiple people to download saves to look at the stategic situation and make suggestions.

Since communism is a long ways off, I suggest slowing down research via the pointy stick.

I'm thinking each early city (say the first 4), works on getting more cities (that means granaries, settlers & workers) and subsequent cities build culture & troops (temple/library, barracks & vet warriors or GS). We'll have trouble accumulating a lot of wealth for upgrades, so getting to IW early will help.

If we can keep the AI at war, ToA will live quite a while and each new city, whether founded or captured, automatically gets a temple (2 more cpt). We should concentrate our cities, planning on them stay in the 4-6 size range (ICS if possible). Having 10 towns producing 5cpt is better than having 5 cities producing 10cpt. Troop support is 4 per every town/city/metro, so we'll be able to afford a much larger army with more cities and they'll also be able to add new culture building as they become available.

(BTW: For the new team members, welcome. I should mention I do tend to ramble alot on my posts, so pick out the nuggets you like and ignore the rest)

Great, thanks Jeff. Happy with the turn order... the only unavailability I am likely to have is at the end of April ... should be well on our way by then :)

The start you are talking about was the one I initially though off - but what about the point that Bed_Head raised, i.e. that the 2NW start will not, iniitally, have any bonus resouces in "area" (unless something comes out of the Fog), until after our first culture growth, which will take 10 turns ... are we happy to go that route because we are going warrior start first?

Hope you guys don't get too irritated - I tend to ask a lot of questions, especially given that this is a bit above my comfort zone.

CiaO 4 NoW

Well, jeffelammar and denyd pointed out something that I forgot, and that is that the Celts are Religious and Agricultural, not Religious and Militaristic. Even though I play more C3C, maybe I had my PTW hat on, because I was not even thinking in terms of agricultural bonus. Knowing this changing the opening strategy a bit, but not radically.

My revised moves would be something like this: Worker NW. If nothing else seen, settler heads NE. Worker N. If nothing else seen, settler heads N. Worker NE (to wheat). If nothing else seen, settle Entremont. Worker irrigates, and when Entermont hits size two four turns later, it can do four-turn growth. We get a settler out there quickly to claim anything else, as the start is food bonus rich and we don't want to wait for another granary to at least get one more city.

I am still agaisnt settling NW two squares. Unless there is something new there, which we will find out with the worker move NW to mountain, we still grow to size two in seven turns and assuming we road and mine bg first, we will grow to size three in six turns, so a total of thirteen turns before we hit size three, while settling next to the wheat gets us there in nine.

I have also been thinking more about not roading tiles immediately if there is another important job to do. This makes a lot of sense here, as rivers will eliminate the usefulness in many cases of the roads. So maybe when it does not help travel, we don't need to bother with roads at first if it will get us another settler or a granary done faster.

Now that I mention that, I think settler N, NW might be a good place to go as it gets a forest in our radius to chop for the granary, while my suggested start does not, as far as I know. This means we don't get to do any scouting with our settler NE, but it might be worth it.

As for game strategies, I am completely against building ToA. If we capture it, fine, but building it is a huge waste. We want to hit the domination limit as soon as we can, and capturing seems like the way to go to me. Yeah, we get it a bit later, and lose out on a bit of culture, but maybe that will mean more handbuilt temples. Whenever possible, hand built temples are better, as ToA temples do not experience the doubling of their cultural effect when they reach 1000 years of age. And while we have it, we cannot build any temples. Temples we built beforehand will recieve the bonus, though. If we have ToA, we are also likely to slow down our research to hold onto it longer. But we want to get to Communism as fast as possible once we have done our conquest.

My overall plan for the game would be different in other ways. Maybe research mysticism for trading purposes, or anything else that might be decent trade bait. Expand as fast as possible until we are boxed in. In shield rich areas, go barracks and then warriors. Once we have no where else to settle, hopefully iron working will be known and available. Switch most everything except cities with granaries to barracks, have them build warriors if we have funds for upgrading or prebuilding gallic swordsmen. Cities with granaries build settlers still, to fill holes and as combat settlers. These cities will build settlers the entire game.

Eventually, we will probably capture ToA. This is good. The more cities we have when we do it, the better it is, and if we focus more on expansion than building ToA and happen to capture it, then we might even make up for the lost time by having more cities that it effects. A plus here is that we can build Cathedrals very early, and they have the culture/shield as libraries, so we will want to build Cathedrals everywhere while we can. When ToA expires, we can go back and build temples again.

With this map, very early domination is quite possible. Gallic Swordsmen are amazing, and we have to take full advantage.

I'm here. I'm pretty new to C3C, also, so this will be interesting.

I'd prefer not to go first.

I think we should try for lots of cities early on, building culture later, instead of lots of early culture. Definitely try for TOA and delay education as long as possible. If we learn education, we lose all the temples that it built for us, and any temples we build after that will never double in culture. If we can win without education, it is probably better - learning education trades potentially double-culture temples for the ability to build universities. This will require having a lot of cities, however.

I think we want to hold back research as much as possible, both to keep the temple of Artemis around and to keep the other AI easy pickings for us.

For the first moves, I like hitting both mountains. Probably we want to settle NE, N or NE, NE - depending on whether the water is fresh or salt, and on whether the cow is accessible - or NW, NW, depending on what is over by the game.

I think denyd has a very good point about the cost of the warrior to gallic swordsman upgrade. The GS is a great unit, once you have it, but it will cost a fortune to upgrade to. I think we have to plan to build most of them from scratch, and this means learning iron working pretty early on. I think we need to get poly for the TOA and then go for iron working if we haven't gotten it in trade yet. I find that the GS holds up well in the early middle ages, and it isn't really outdated until cavalry, as long as you don't downgrade them to MI. It doesn't do well against knights, but it picks off MI and longbows and then retreats quite nicely.

Wanderer this is what it's all about. As long as you don't mind when I try to crack a stupid joke we're all good!!!

I've never attempted a 100K but I think I have the concept. I think we can all agree the wheat is a priority. I like the idea of having the worker do a little sightseeing. We have a core that is food friendly it seems. Fog gazing tells me some plains N and NW near the wheat and I say a walk around a lake comes back to the cow.
For culture the bottom makes sense and let's hope we meet some BW friends.
Popping huts are not too fruitful or friendly I presume.

Remember to push me back in line if I'm up over the next week.

I don't know if CKS read my post before writing his, but I will say again I completely disagree with that plan. Absolutely. We have two choices for government, and one of them comes after government and gets rid of the tile penalty. We get 1000 year double on temples we handbuild, or on temples we handbuild after ToA that reach 1000 years of age. We will not get 1000 year double on any temples that the ToA created for us.

We don't really need to buy any techs, or do much at all. Pointy stick will be our friend. Min, or 0% research, will be fine for AA. So we should have gold for a few upgrades, if not a lot. And as we accumulate gold, any warriors that were not upgraded can later be upgraded.

as ToA temples do not experience the doubling of their cultural effect when they reach 1000 years of age.

This is interesting. I'd missed that, somehow. (I've never actually built the TOA.) This makes it more of a question, in my mind. How many shields for the TOA? Okay, I looked it up - 500. That hurts. How can we get a neighbor to build it early on? I guess I now lean toward not building it, unless we get a SGL. As mad-bax says it is out of the box C3C except for resources and no settlers from huts, it sounds like SGL might be allowed, although my first thought had been that they wouldn't be. If we get one, I'd take the TOA over the Pyramids. Is it worth racing for techs early in hopes of getting one? For a 20K attempt, I do. Here, I don't know, especially as we aren't scientific.

I don't know if CKS read my post before writing his, but I will say again I completely disagree with that plan.

No, I hadn't read your post first, and I found it pretty compelling. Surely you don't completely disagree with me, though. You want lots of cities early, right? ;)

This game is pretty far from how I usually play, so I expect to have lots of ideas that don't hold up well under scrutiny. I'm going to spit them out anyway.

Heated debate is good. :) At least it means we are all thinking and proposing, as opposed to sitting and letting it come to us.

It will be interesting to see where we go with this, eventually. I think we have some common points atm:

1) Lots of cities

That implies fast early growth (food), and then capture (pointy-stick)

Imho, that does kind of imply the low tech (min %) route, sicne I fear that, unless we are lucky with a lux, as we grow fast, early, we may have some happiness issues (I know I ofter do when I play monarch or higher, and am not SUPER careful). That will be especially true when we get a lot of cities, and have to do a lot of micro-managing.

On that topic, (kinda) is the use of CivAssist and MapStat acceptable practice for SGOTM's?

Also, I think I read that we should not use governor's ? No problems with that - just wanted to have it confirmed.

So Jeff, since you say this is a bit democratic, perhaps you should list the current proposition's in terms of opening moves, so we can really weigh them, or do we already have enough of that done. I must say, I have the least scientific reasoning for my squares (2NW), though I do think that having both the wheat and deer for our cradle, with all those shields (at least 1 forest, 2 BG's) means we could have a VERY nice settler factory ... even a 5-turn one?

Also, I don't yet understand the impact of the C3C removal of RCP. What does that mean for city placing - should we makes sure we give best ability for long terms growth (say a 4 or 5 spacing), or focus on fast, early growth (3 and 4 spacing)?

Look forward to hearing from you, and learning....

CiaO

I don't think I've ever had wide spacing so that would be completely new for me. With despot I think it would be even worse for wide spacing as we will be in it for 2/3 of the game.
My first choice for a spot (right now) without gazing would be 1N1NW (non bonus).
I would defer to the culture experts on builds. I know how to make friends, build space parts and point the stick.

As for game strategies, I am completely against building ToA. If we capture it, fine, but building it is a huge waste. We want to hit the domination limit as soon as we can, and capturing seems like the way to go to me. But we want to get to Communism as fast as possible once we have done our conquest.

Some very good points here. In fact, I think we shouldn't worry too much about culture in the early game.

In most of my 100K victorys, most of my culture came from rushing temples and libraries in highly corrupted towns in the late game. Late in the game we will have 1000+ Cpt. This is equivalent to 25 turns with 20 cities and the ToA.

The doubling effect doesn't make that big a difference in a 100K run because you usually don't have massive numbers of cities till about 500 AD or later. At that point your big bang is from lots of temples and libraries rather than the relatively small number you got built early.

As for starting, I have to say that Bed_head's arguments are compelling. I am now leaning toward the settler going N - NW unless the worker nw changes our mind.

Given that, can I propose we move settler NW 1st (since he's going NW anyway ). That way, we have the option of worker NE if we don't like what we see), or straight N, which is the fastest route to the wheat, so he can get going on that wheat asap.

In my mind I had:
4000 bc
Settler NW (take a look - assumming nothing really interesting)
Worker N
3950:
Settler NW or N, depending on prevailing wisdom
Worker N
3900:
Found city
Worker irrigates wheat....

thought's?

Okay, we seem to be moving toward a consensus here. Be it resolved that we want a food bonus first ring, I would say we have two options.

Option #1
First turn: Worker NE, Settler NW
Advantages: max amount of territory seen, and assuming nothing new pops up, our plan can still move forward unchanged
Disadvantages: possible wasted move, most likely of worker, if we settle elsewhere

Option #2
First turn: Worker NW, Settler N
Advantages: Worker and Settler moving together, so if something comes out to greet us to NE, our worker will get their faster
Disadvantages: We don't know what is to the NW (though I can see a sugar and for the most part it seems to be plains)

Overall, the Option #2 seems better, as NW seems to be plains, so any food bonus there won't come into play at all until irrigation, and even then it is only +3fpt. If there is a food bonus NE (i.e. cow), our worker will be there faster and the cow can be improved before the wheat. We do not get to see as much to NW, or get an idea of the size of the lake. Either option will get us to size three in nine turns after settling no matter what, as long as the worker goes directly to a food bonus after the initial scouting. Just one way would get the worker to the hypothetical superior food bonus.

So it is all up to the playing style of whoever starts it off.

I think #2 is the best choice, then adjust for what's discovered after turn 1.

Once we've got our capital in place, a warrior is probably the first order of business, then what?

1. Temple (early culture , but would add upkeep costs)
2. Warrior (more scouting, but might not be needed)
3. Granary (or do we want a settler first)
4. Settler (get that second city out quick)
5. Worker (never hurts to have another one of these)

I'd vote for a settler if it could be timed to meet the growth to pop 3, else another warrior (unless on a smallish island).

Also we'll need to decide on a research path.

1. Mysticism (heading for Poly)
2. Bronze Working (valuable for trading & Colossus)
3. Alphabet (on the way to writing, literature and libraries)
4. Masonry (valuable to trading)
5. The Wheel (finding horses and maybe best shot for SGL on 1st level)
6. Warrior Code (Archers for barbarian hunting)

Here my choice would be Mysticism at minimum or The Wheel at maximum. I'm afraid we'd be lucky to be second best on any of the others and our original two have very low trade value.

Warrior, settler, granary would be my build order. We are food rich, so we can pop a second city out quickly to get a second granary up quickly.

We will want money, so Mysticism on min. It is our only second tier available.

Warrior, settler, granary would be my build order. We are food rich, so we can pop a second city out quickly to get a second granary up quickly.

We will want money, so Mysticism on min. It is our only second tier available.
I concur on the build order and research. With all this food around, I think we are better off getting more cities faster rather than waiting for the Granary before making any Settlers.

For the first move, I kind of like what Wanderer suggested
Option #3
First turn: Settler NW, Worker N
Advantages: Worker reaches wheat in 2 turns rather than 3.
Disadvantages: We don't see the NE and we commit our 1st settler move before we see what we can see from the mountain.

EDIT: Once we agree on these, we can kick off. I'm going to suggest that because we are adopting most of Bed_head's suggested start, that we have him kick us off.

Okay, will do. I forgot to mention this, but Wanderer's start doesn't really have any advantage, as we don't need to get to the wheat in 2 turns. Irrigation occurs before food is added to the box, so in the worst case the irrigation would finish in the IT before food would first be added at size two.

Anyway, that doesn't really matter at this point. Once I install the GOTM resources and submit an assignment, I will play this.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/jeffelammar_SG006_BC3000_01.SAV

4000 BC (0) - Worker NE, Settler NW. Nothing new, except there isn't sugar as I expected. Must have been the shield showing up.

3900 BC (2) - Entremont founded. It is not as good a spot as I thought it would be without the sugar. A four-turn factory is possible, though. Building warrior, start min run at mysticism.

3650 BC (7) - Finish irrigation, start road.

3550 BC (9) - Finish warrior, start settler.

3400 BC (12) - Border expansion reveals another wheat to the NW.

3250 BC (15) - The extra worker scouting comes back to bite us in the ass now. I wish I had thought this far ahead. No good way to build a settler, so we'll have to work the forest.

3100 BC (18) - Finish settler, start granary.

Final notes - Settler ought to settle in place. I was thinking worker for first build, or maybe even two.

Overall, the turns were, well, ugh. I rarely put so much though into planning, but obviously I didn't plan far enough ahead, or we would have 5 more food in the box.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/jeffelammar_3000BC.jpg

Hmm - quite a pity we didn't go 2NW, then Entremont would have had acces to deer and silk - were those visible from the mountain top?

Still, we are growing nicely. That second wheat is a NICE surprise, and rivered as well!

The "lake" is looking quite big - I doubt we will get around it soon.

Given position on global map, it would seem initial growth will be west and north?

How expansive do we think that mountain range is?

I am still happy with the decision on settling where I did, just the worker scouting, and then roading the wheat. We can get at least one more settler factory, possibly two, just based on what I can see right now. Having Entremont claim both food bonuses is quite unnecessary.

Ok .. thanks for the correction.

I guess that means we will want to get a city somewhere near where out SW warrior is, to get silk, deer, river and not build on BG's - or would you consider building on the hill?

South of Entremont also looks good, a few BG's around those forests...

I think things look good.

I don't usually like settling almost on the coast, but I think settling in place is the right thing to do here. On the coast is too far away from Entremont and we want the wheat right away.

For city 3, I'd lean toward on the silks. Then we don't have to road them and we'll be able to irrigate the chopped game forest through the city.

We got a pretty nice start. Food bonus tiles, a lux, plenty of hills for iron, lots of rivers.

As an "outside the scope of the game comment" Wow - how great a city would a player be able to build with 2 BG's, 2 Wheat, Silk, Deer, on a river!

BTW - please don't take my comments about alternative locations as criticism's - far from it, I am trying to learn why the decision I would have made, were in-efficient, or just plain bad - that's why I amd throwing them out there....

Good work B.
Anyone want to try a dotmap. The 2nd wheat for the settler. Worker->worker is needed.
For a 3rd city silks seem like a good idea for focus on growth. Maybe 4th a coastal for research exploration? 5th 1 E of warrior?
I think my lake is an ocean so don't listen to me but does it seem like more mountains west?

Looks good. I think we should take a quick breather and discuss a city placement dot map. If no one else does it, I'll try to put a couple options together this evening.


Just a reminder. After we discuss dot maps, the roster will be...

bed_head7 << Just Played
denyd << Up
Whomp << On deck
CKS
Wanderer
jeffelammar

I can't till later either.

I could try on the plane tomoorow but I won't have access to the 'net till likely Thursday at best.

However it could make for an interesting plane ride when I scream "Take that you barbarian"! "Now where's my dotmap and curragh"? It may be better for team tempo to move me back.

Well, I done a combined dot map, which you can correct, or start from.

I've presented 3 set's of alternatives: Light green, pink and blue, although looking looking back, the white option 2 is pretty much a given for all of the sets, since we have our settler there right now ;)

Hopefully that loads correctly.

I am tempted to think the dark blue option seem best, since the pink and light green only give us 2 nice cities there.

I went on the basis that I don't build a city on a BG, or a resource, and that I don't want the basic 9 squares to overlap.

Blue 4 and 3 ARE on hilld, and both get river. Blue 5 might be debatable - I was thinking of growing and gettting the cow, as well as potentially a harbor, if it turns out that that is sea.

Pink 2 and 3 are on river. Pink 2 is the only explicit grab of the silk and deer. I think that Blue 3 would extend automatically, and include them ??

We could always go with Pink2, Blue 4 and blue 5, as an option, btw.

Should I be considering wider spaces?

Should I be considering wider spaces?

That really is the question that we need to decide. We need to select what our placement strategy is going to be.

We may actually want something closer than what you describe.

Three things to keep in mind.
1. As agricultural civs, we get +1 food for each city on a river.
2. Since we have to stay in despotism, even hills cannot reach more than 2 spt even with mines.
3. By placing cities on hills on rivers we increase their power and can make it up by building cheaper mines on the grasslands. (A worked hill is 1 food 2 shields, a settled hill on a river should be 3 food, 1 shield if I count right)

So there are two basic strategies as I see it.
Strategy 1: Do an ICS type strategy, packing in lots of cities on the rivers.
Pros: Get lots of cities with bonus food. Also good for building culture as we progress.
Cons: Cities will be limited in available squares to work. As was pointed out before, I think lots of small cities is a better bet since we have to stay despotic.

Strategy 2: Use a more standard 2-3 squares between cities.
Pros: More powerful cities. Quicker territory grabbing.
Cons: Less cities overall.

I am not home, so couldn't use screen capture to get a clean image, so I used bed_head's screen shot for this, I'll add the image in a few minutes when I'm done editing it.

Edit: Here is a dot map, that takes advantage of the hills. It isn't quite ICS, but it is close.

Note that the Alphabetical listing is not a suggested order. It is just to label my dots for discussion. There would also be a dot on the hill 3 SE of dot "G".

Wow - that's a tight build.

Given that we are playing C3C, and RCP isn't in effect.

ICS ? I must check that up.

This will mean a MM nightmare later, not so? I know that in SG's we can afford the time - I do worry about making mistakes, especially as we head towards 30+ cities - I know that MID-GAME is my weakest point.

You plan on swapping our irrigated wheat between 3 cities (D, C and entromont) ?
Youch - I hope no one accidentally end-turns at the wrong time, could stuff up 3 cities. I've NEVER shared a resources between 3 cities - will we realistically be able to get optimized builds?

Some interesting things found while searching - perhaps you can confirm if they are still true
You should often build a courthouse in the city before building the Forbidden Palace now, because it continues to provide benefits even after the FP is built. If the city's corruption (entirely due to rank, of course) is greater than 10% even after the FP, the courthouse will cap the max corruption at 10%. On a standard map (OCN=20) on Emperor, applying the adjustments of OCN*0.1 for Republic and OCN*0.375 for having the FP built, rank corruption exceeds 10% at the 6th city from the Palace.

So on a standard map, if you build the FP in second-ring or farther, definitely build or rush a courthouse there first. If you build the FP right next to the capital, a courthouse isn't necessary. And once police stations are available, you should always build both that and a courthouse in the FP city as doing so will reduce the city's corruption to 0.

ICS ? I must check that up.

ICS is a strategy that basically involves lots of cities all close together. They can't grow very large, but they are good for a quick start. Also later in a 100K game ICS is powerful because you can build lots and lots of temples and libraries in a smaller area.


You plan on swapping our irrigated wheat between 3 cities (D, C and entromont) ?
Youch - I hope no one accidentally end-turns at the wrong time, could stuff up 3 cities. I've NEVER shared a resources between 3 cities - will we realistically be able to get optimized builds?
Actually, I wasn't planning on switching resources between them. I forsee that Entremont will own the wheat for the foreseeable future.

My main goal in this placement is to maximize early expansion AND to maximize the advantage of being Agricultural.

I'm not saying this is the only way, it is just a suggestion.

Ahhh - can anyone give me a link to an article on ICS (infinite city sprawl).

Care to priotitize you spots? (A) obviously first.

Then (h)
Then (e) - i figure because of those nice BG's.

In terms of order's, what are you thinking for (a)? That barb makes me concerned, given Mad-Bax's "raging, regional" barb's that make me think barb troubles are likely sooner rather than later.

Are you thinking Warrior,worker,granary,settler for (a)? It should grow fast with that wheat.

Plans for worker? Does he help (a) or work the BG south of his current position?

CiaO

I would think the tight builds will help in a despot as every shield is so valuable.

"H" seems to be a good spot as #1 because the land will have been developed a bit and could be shared by Entremont.

If Entremont and "A" will be settler and worker pumps I would suggest "E" #2 for military, curraghs and workers.

"B" #3 should be moved 1NW to allow the city to go fishing every so often when mm'ing shields and food with "A".

"D" needs more exploration around it to see what's up there.

I like the tight build. I think ICS will keep us concentrated on expanding. Good points about building on hills, too, especially when we can get them on rivers, which we have a lot of.

I think A, H, E sounds good for our first builds, and I also think B should probably be on the coast. However, I'd like to see what we have to the north before it gets settled. The rest of the dots look pretty good to me at the present time, thought I don't have time to ponder them much yet.

I just got back from a day at Disneyland (without the son :D ) and probably won't get a chance to play this until later tonight (after 10pm in about 4 hours, but possibly not until tomorrow), so I'll check back then and take a look at the decision on city placement.

I normally play with a looser build, but then I always strive to get out of despotism ASAP, so a tighter build is probably in order. I'll wait for a team decision before starting.

BTW: Nice start BH :clap:

I normally play with a looser build, but then I always strive to get out of despotism ASAP, so a tighter build is probably in order. I'll wait for a team decision before starting.

I too tend towards a looser build. In this case my dotmap was more dictated by the location of hills and rivers than by a great desire for the close in mapping.

Since we can't get the bonus food from a better governement I was thinking that we would want to make it up with as many river cities as possible. Our biggest asset right now is that we are agricultural.

I have attached an updated dot map.

I moved site B to the coast.

Sites C and D would be very low on my priority list. More of some spots to fill in when we have a chance.

Settler would settle Site A
Site H would be my next target. (Get the game and irrigate it for 3 cities with +5 food.
Then it would be a tossup between E and J. J has the game, E is closer and will have less corruption. If G has a bonus food, it would move up to this group.
Then, as we expand west, I would start to look at filling in some the other sites.

Feel free to object and suggest other options.

I like the emphasis on river, and suggested order of settling.

OK sorry for being a donkeys arse. I had to reschedule my flight for tomorrow (business before pleasure it seems). If I can pick up the game tonight I can play if not no probs.

I think the rivers make great sense and the hills could have iron underneath so that is a huge positive as well. I do think a coastal city is really important for curragh contacts and would rate B a little higher and it could be very productive as well.

I would go H, B, E and then J.

Whomp: Go ahead and take it, I've got a couple of hardware issues that I'd like to correct anyway (anyone know anything about active-X?)

I like settling A-H-E-J-G

My only change to the dot-amp would be to move I to NE (it could use the cow and forest form across the water after expansion) and add a new city 1 SW of I (still on the river).

The new city should probably pump out a warrior before anything else. We need to get some more scouting done.

Just for those curious about "Regionally Intense Barbarians", in some of the earlier GOTM's, Cracker (the Ainwood of games 17-30), would setup either and island or a peninsula with a goodie hut at the choke point and drop 4-6 barbarian camps, so that when the first era change occurs, over 80 mad barbarian horsemen would appear. One game, i found an 25 tile island in about 1700 AD with nearly 200 barbarian horsemen. What would have been interesting if the target victory condition had been space and the only source of either aluminum or uranium was on that island. Maybe an good scenario for a future SGOTM, with barbarian horses being replaced by cossacks, barbarians replaced by guerillas and barbarian galleys replaced by privateers.

Thanks Denyd. Is OK with everyone else if I hit it tonight? "A" in place and and then "H" and "E" are consensus right?

Since I am a bit computer challenged at times I want to make sure I do it right...I need to pick up the link from Bed_head's play (I don't need the original start and his correct?) Then when I upload to the M-B celt06 with our team link and firaxis score. Then I can post the link and log to the team....sound right?

Denyd--I've seen Active X on my office pc and have been told by our tech administrators to hit yes. No clue why though.

Go ahead, settle H and E. Remember to pay close attention to food. The governor, on growth, will try to assign cities working food bonuses tiles like forests, which slow down growth. And we are all about growth.

And you've got it right. Click my save, but it in your Conquests/Saves/ folder, play it, save it, upload it in the SGOTM upload page, upload it again using the link at the bottom of this page, and then copy the link on to your post. There is a good explanation of that last part in a stick in the SG forum, if what I said confused you.

Thx Bh easy instructions.
I will mm every turn. Pretty easy at the outset. I am little concerned about that barb at 4 and 5 from cities. Any thoughts on that?

Go ahead, Whomp.

I agree with A, H, E in that order. I want E over J or G first because it is coastal, and we might want to send out some boats. I expect we'll settle B, C, D, and K later (barring some nice stuff just north of our location, which might make B more attractive), so boats would have to come from E.

Given what we can see, I like J and then G, but we should have a lot more visible before we get around to settling them. This will probably change things.

Denyd, I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say move I to the NE.

@CKS He meant K which looks like an I.

I wouldn't worry too much about the barb at this point. Its behavior will depend upon which NoAIPatrol setting you have. I am guessing you haven't changed it ever, meaning the barb will just fortify at some point.

I've never touched it so keep exploring.

Yes, that was K 2-NE to the corner and a new city 1 SW of K. Another city means more culture.

I noticed on the maintenance thread that SGL's are turned off for the game and huts give workers instead of settlers.

Okay, that makes sense. I don't think it matters whether we put a city where K is or 1 SW of K (exploring more might show a difference), but we should put one on the tundra two to the NE of K.

Actually, in the maintenance thread it said that SGL were supposed to be off, but that the saves were reporting that they were on, and civ-specific abilities were off. This does not seem to be convincing evidence that SGL are off.

BTW - I have the NoAIPatrol edit in the ini - what do the rest of you have?

I've fixed my barbarians, too.

BTW - I have the NoAIPatrol edit in the ini - what do the rest of you have?
Since I just installed conquests a couple weeks ago, I haven't made the edit yet.

I will before I do a turnset in this game.

This is what I see in the configuration settings. ActualBarbarianActivity=-1
BarbarianActivity=-1

Where do I find the NoAIPatrol? :blush:

You have to add the line. There is a utility that ainwood created to do it if you don't want to mess with it. Or, you can just add your self NoAIPatrol = 1 in the ini file.

I have added the line, by the way.

CKS, mad-bax said that whatever program he is using to check the saves said that SGLs are on and civ specific are off. That is his program, though, not the saves. SGLs are off, and civ specific are on.

Thanks Bed head.
I figured that out after reading Doc T's thread. Now I trying to find the goats on the test save.

Here's the link. Met the Mongols and disturbed some barbs. Be right back with the turn log.

IBT barb heads my direction
1. 2950 BC worker mines at Entremont. Alesia is founded -->worker
It uncovers more bg.

IBT barb goes away. Well hello poilte Temujin. Up BW, Mas, Alpha, WC and 25g. Won't take anything and would be insulted.
2. 2900 BC zzz

IBT Scout goes S to tundra
3. 2850 BC zzz

IBT zzz
4. 2800 BC Barb fortifies. Move lux 30%.

IBT zzz
5. 2750 BC zzz

IBT zzz
6. 2710 BC +8gpt 115 T would be insulted with 8 gpt and all our gold

IBT zzz
7. 2670 BC Alesia worker-->warrior worker to wheat. Entre worker roads. Grow in 2. Warrior see mountain goats and barb shack.

IBT zzz
8. 2630 BC See goody hut near shack. Warrior to mountain goat. MM gran to 2.

IBT zzz
9. 2590 BC gran in 1 grow in 4. lux to 40%. Pop hut and get 3 more barbs.

IBT zzz
10. 2550 BC Gran--> settler See another hut. Slow Entremont to grow in 5 and settler in 5. Barbs fortify in mountains. Can be changed.

==============
Summary Pretty uneventful. Temujin has plenty of jingo at 272g and won't take anything. He'd be doubtful with all our gold and 8 gpt for all techs x alpha where he'd be insulted. Tough customer.

And a screenie

I see, and you mentioned, growth in 5. This is what I was talking about. We want growth in 4 (well, ideally the granary would have come with food already in the box, as that food is retained, so growth in 2, but possibly that couldn't be helped), not 5.

If there is ever doubt in anyone's mind as to what to do, let one word guide you: growth.

Actually we just grew to 5 pop and can grow in 4 I just changed it to 5 on turn 10 to equal the settler popping in 5. There has not been any lost growth just change it preturn back to food. I was thinking we would grow to pop 7 for some reason. Sorry for the confusion. No harm done.

Ok, I got it.

Looks like the goal for my 10 should be a new city on H and connect the silks, have a new settler on the way to E.

Should I start a temple the 2 non-capital cities while they grow to settler production size?

In alll likelyhood we'll won't complete any techs during my set, so no decisions on that. I am a little concerned that the Mongols are so far ahead on tech. I realize at this stage, it's probably just that they've popped a hut for a tech and met another AI or 2 and traded a couple of techs. I does mean that there are probably a couple of neighbors.

There is the possiblity that MadBax gave them a "head-start", perhaps? What was the difficulty setting again?
Difficulty Emperor (approximately) So some finicking seems likely....
Are we set on the principle of pointy-stick research ?

By the way, does everyone sucribe to the "honourable warrior" type principles? (no declaring while forces inside territory, etc. etc. ?

I realize that no food was lost here, I was just pointing out that chaning to growth in four should usually be an automatic thing to do. However, as that BG isn't mined yet, Entremont will be operating its factory at a high pop, but that isn't really something I have a problem with.

Should I start a temple the 2 non-capital cities while they grow to settler production size?
The temple is really only worth it if it will be done before they can start poping out settlers/workers. (Otherwise it violates our rule about Growth first) I'd almost go with a granary first unless we can complete both without delaying settlers much.

I think 2 settler factories and a worker factory should be the first goal. Then the 4th and/or 5th city should target military. In that one, the temple would wait unless we really need cultural expansion.

I still think we should start pumping out veteran warriors for eventual upgrade to GS. I know it will be expensive, but I still think it is worth it.

Jeff, you do assume that we are going to get Iron easily?

I was wondering - how soon do we expect to go to war - I.e. was we going to build archer stacks, or warriors for upgrades?

As I mentioned earlier, are we reliant on successful pointy-stick to catch up our tech lack?

Guess I'm just a bit nervous atm :-)

Gramary in Alesia once the warrior is done.

Should I try for a worker or a warrior in city3 or go straight to a granary?

It should be easy to get a warrior first, but I'm concerned that either a worker or granary would delay the first settler out of city3.

I'll be playing about 8 hours from this time stamp.

Jeff, you do assume that we are going to get Iron easily?
I am making that assumption. It would be good to plan for contingencies, but I don't think having 4 or 5 veteran warriors is a bad thing, even if we don't have iron accessable.


Should I try for a worker or a warrior in city3 or go straight to a granary?

It should be easy to get a warrior first, but I'm concerned that either a worker or granary would delay the first settler out of city3. .
I am leaning toward a worker. We really need to get some roads out there to speed our settlers along the way.
I would think worker -> granary -> <factory>

I have no objection to going straight to granary, but I think we need workers sooner.

I agree - workers are good. I'm playing my own celt emperor c3c test game, to see how ICS works, and my workers have been invaluable.

BTw - warrior -> GS = 90gp

Man - I am enjoying pointy-stick in that game. 490bc, second war start, and I think I have nearly 30 cities ;-)

With the amount of hills & mountains in our neighborhood, our chances for iron are pretty good (but this is C3C, so who knows).

City3 will start with a worker.

My apologies to the team fortunately it didn't impact our growth since denyd can change it. No excuses if it would have happened interturn.

Should a curragh be a build out of "E"?

No need to apologize over anything. You had reasoning behind your decision, and I am certainly not always right. I was simply giving an opinion. However, as we have decided upon growth as our number one, we need Entremont to be big. Though it can operate as 4-5 factory, it will be able to operate as a 5-6 factory sooner. Our workers are falling a little behind. As that is the case, I agree with popping another worker before granary.

I also like the idea of a curragh out there. We want to find out where our iron is, as mad-bax might make things tough on us by hiding it. So we'll need decent knowledge of the world and some "friends," and a curragh seems a great way to get both.

Turn Log 1

Turn 0 – 2550 BC – MM to grow Entremont in 4 – BTW notice a red border to the east

IBT: Thor (Warrior) (3/3) survives a Barbarian Warrior (BW) attack

Turn 1 – 2510 BC – Thor W – Ann (worker) starts mine

IBT: Bee (worker) completes irrigating wheat

Turn 2 – 2470 BC – Bee starts road – Thor (1/3) kills BW and gets 25g

IBT: Alesia builds warrior starts granary

Turn 3 – 2430 BC – Conan (warrior) NW – Thor W

IBT: ZZZ

Turn 4 – 2390 BC - Conan N – Thor pops hut for Warrior Code

IBT: Entremont builds a settler starts warrior

Turn 5 – 2350 BC – Settler moves to next city site – Bee moves to chop for granary – Conan NW – Thor SW

IBT: BW approaches Ann

Turn 6 – 2310 BC – Wake Ann and move from danger – Settler founds Lugdunum starts warrior (worker would finish too soon) – Bee starts chop – Thor NW – Conan NW

IBT: BW fortifies – Entremont builds warrior starts settler

Turn 7 – 2270 BC – Odin (warrior) & Ann back to BG – Conan N finds spices – Thor W

IBT: zzz

Turn 8 – 2230 BC – Ann starts mine – Odin (1/3) kills BW - Conan NW finds another spice – Thor SW

IBT: Another BW appears in the east

Turn 9 – 2190 BC – Odin N – Conan NW spots a goody hut – Thor SW – Mongols have added The Wheel (still no deals)

IBT: BW moves off – Lugdunum builds warrior starts worker

Turn 10 – 2150 BC – Hercules (warrior) S – Bee starts a mine – Conan N – Thor SW

After action notes: Conan will be able to pop a hut next turn (if we feel lucky) – Odin is healing on a mountain hoping to spot a red neighbor – Barbarians are a real pain – Entremont is due for a settler next turn and Alesia still needs 9 more to complete the Granary – Lugdunum needs 4 for the worker and will grow in 3 – I’ve got a red-lined Thor exploring W and Conan going N – Once the barbarians have calmed down, one of the other warriors can head out scouting – Not a turn set for the record books, but it’s still early

Don't be modest. It looks like once again we are among the early leaders, though it is too early to take much stock in that. We do have more points than teams 10 turns past us though, which certainly means something.

Great POP for Warrior Code :goodjob: ... I just know I would have gotten a raging horde :eek:

Things do look good. Pity there isn't a screenshot (I'm at work, so I can't review the save).

Things sound good - how is our research going?

Now that we've got Archers, do we want to go archer's? They don't upgrade to gallic swordsmen (do they?), so I would guess not, unless we are going for a VERY early war....

CiaO

The map hasn't changed that much. To the west is a pretty wide (4-5 tiles) mountain range (lots of iron & coal I hope). Nothing new to the south & east except a red border that hopefully will soon provide someone besides the Mongols to trade with. To the north is the only things of note, with a pair of spices and a goody hut.

With our first three cities settled and their path determined (1&2 building granaries and then settlers and 3 building granary then workers), the next set of cities will begin our culture push. The first coastal city should produce 2 curraghs, if we have alphabet by then, one to head N along the coast and the other south. Everyone else should probably go temple then barracks then vet warriors (future GS). One our next couple of settlers should head N to claim those spices before the Mongols get their first. We also need to get those silks connected so that we can drop the luxury level below 40%.

As for research, we are about 9 turns from Mysticism, which be a monopoly tech so far. The Mongols are up Masonry, Bronze Working, Alphabet & The Wheel, so hopefully we'll be able to parlay Myst into tech parity. What's next on the research front? Polytheism, Writing (assuming we can deal for Alphabet) or Iron Working (assuming a BW deal) are at the top of my list. If we are considering the Temple of Artemis ploy, then Poly is the best choice, otherwise probably writing (unless we expect to be at war soon).

With our first three cities settled and their path determined (1&2 building granaries and then settlers and 3 building granary then workers), the next set of cities will begin our culture push. The first coastal city should produce 2 curraghs, if we have alphabet by then, one to head N along the coast and the other south. Everyone else should probably go temple then barracks then vet warriors (future GS). One our next couple of settlers should head N to claim those spices before the Mongols get their first. We also need to get those silks connected so that we can drop the luxury level below 40%.

I agree with all of this except for one little detail. With the agressive Mongols right near us, I think we should get a city producing military. I want to keep our strength up so the Mongols don't get uppity and demand too much before we are ready to crush them.
So I would do one city that built a barracks -> warriors...
Then the next couple would follow Denyd's temple -> barracks -> military path.

We definately should look to take out the Mongols before they get their UU. With all these mountains around, that could get ugly.


As for research, we are about 9 turns from Mysticism, which be a monopoly tech so far. The Mongols are up Masonry, Bronze Working, Alphabet & The Wheel, so hopefully we'll be able to parlay Myst into tech parity. What's next on the research front? Polytheism, Writing (assuming we can deal for Alphabet) or Iron Working (assuming a BW deal) are at the top of my list. If we are considering the Temple of Artemis ploy, then Poly is the best choice, otherwise probably writing (unless we expect to be at war soon).
This is a tough one for me to make a call on. I think all 3 are good ways to go.
1. Iron Working - Know where iron is, allows us to plan a first war if we need to go fight to get iron.
2. Writing - best choice if we are going for pure trade bait.
3. Polytheism - good trade bait, and possible TOA...

I'm leaning toward Iron Working, but would like to hear other opinions.

Roster update
bed_head7
denyd << Just Played
Whomp << Played in switch with Denyd
CKS << Up
Wanderer << On Deck
jeffelammar

Well, I kinda lean to IW myself. What we trade for will naturally be quite important in that process.

One of the benefit of our tight build is that with the shorter distances, it should be easier to co-ordinate a defence. What I',m saying, I guess, is that perhaps we should take a risk on a military-lite approach atm, and continue that growth focus.

Good analysis denyd and Jeff. Poly was what we originally said for the wonder build. I would feel more comfortable with a little military build as well.
Who's in the game....
Babs (across the water)BW/CB, Japanese wheel/CB, Carths and French mas/alpha, Chinese WC/Mas, Iroq and English Alpha/pot, Indians CB alpha, Vikes Pot/WC and Americans Pot/Mas .
My assumptions...
The mongols met the babs to get BW. This tells me we should be able to trade with the babs too (south and east??). The mongol scout was headed towards the tundra.

The Japanese must be near the Mongols as they got the wheel too. 5 AI's have alpha, 4 have masonry but they may have met French or Carths who have both. These would seem to get cheap pretty quick. Pottery is likely worthless now I'm sure the Mongols traded this away.

Iron Working. Most everyone wants SGOTM to be a little more challenging. The sooner we find out that we don't have any iron, the better.

I've got the save and will play tomorrow.

Nice set of turns, denyd.

I think iron working should be our next tech, mostly agreeing that the sooner we know we don't have iron, the better. If we do have iron, we get GS sooner; this also suits me.

I'm not comfortable delaying building military too long. While the Mongols seem to be pretty far away, so are our warriors. Putting a new city on barracks - warriors instead of temple - barracks - warriors won't delay our own growth. It will help keep the Mongols from declaring on us and it will help us get started down the conquest path sooner.

I'll put the next city on the coast (was this E?). Should I put city 5 up near the spices? Is the extra food bonus for rivers only, or do we get it for any fresh water? We've got lakes by the spices, but no rivers.

Well, I'll play tomorrow provided our save is fixed. I noticed that there is a boat bug on the maintenance thread, and we should let it get fixed.

I think it's important that we claim those spices before the Mongols do. At emperor, we only get 1 content body per city and we are spending a lot of money at the present (lux=40%) to keep a size 6 city happy. Once we've connected the silks and if we can get the spices attached, we could drop that to 20% (or less).

I agree that IW is probably something we need, I'm just not sure it wouldn't be better to go for a less AI desired tech and trade for IW. That's one of the benefits of the Myst-Poly path. Of course getting to writing, gets us closer to literature and libraries. My vote would be Poly and try to trade for the others.

Claiming the spice will be good, but it will take us a while to road them into our empire (which will thus impact on growth, since we won't be mining BG's, or chopping forested deer), and the extra turns taken to get the settler there might also vut into our growth?

I also think we dhould stick to our guns and go for POLY.

I would go the poly route as well because we would still need BW (babs) first and then IW. Poly would hopefully give us a 2nd monopoly tech to trade for.

I think we need to make sure we get the spices, even if it takes us a while to get them connected to the rest of the empire. Losing out on them would be bad. I think city 5 goes here. Then I'm thinking city 6 either at J (to get the game) or between Alesia and the spices. J is a better city spot, but in between makes it easier to connect and defend our spice city.

(Another resource note: silks are the needed resource for the statue of zeus. This might be a useful wonder.)

I'm okay with poly for a research choice. I'll feel better about it once we know some more people, as our chances for trading for what we want will be higher. I'd really like to see who we know and what we can get for mysticism before deciding for sure. I think we should also consider math, as the statue of zeus would be nice, both for culture and for units, and the shield cost is not high - 200 shields for lots of funny-looking GS.

Still no word on the fixed save. I won't be able to play tonight, but I can play tomorrow afternoon. If they get fixed and you want to play first, Wanderer, we can swap. Otherwise, I'll play tomorrow.

CKS - I have to work tomorrow, so you play, I'll pick up after you. Best of luck with the turns.

Still no fixed save? I guess I'll check tomorrow evening.

Hope everyone had a good weekend, and didn't have to work...

Here is the save.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/jeffelammar_SG006_BC1750_01.SAV

Turn 0: We can get Mysticism in 9 at 100% science, but we need 40% lux, and will for a long time because Alesia is also unhappy. I leave science at 10%, mysticism in 12.

IBT Settler

Turn 1: Conan meets Chinese. They don't have CB, but do have BW and masonry. I decide that BW will be cheaper after we meet the babylonians, so I trade CB for masonry + 22 g. Settler goes south, Hercules attacks barb to the south and dies. Odin and Thor rest. Conan pops a hut and gets barbs.

IBT Chinese kill 2 of the hut barbs.

Turn 2: Conan goes N, Odin NE, Thor W, Settler S. Set lux to 50% as Alesia grows.

Turn 3: Conan N, Thor W, Odin E. The red borders were Japan, not the Babylonians. They don't have masonry. I trade masonry + 69 g for alphabet, then trade alphabet to China for BW + 38 g. Settle Camulodunum and start a curragh. The Mongols have IW.

IBT China learns IW. Start granary in Lugdunum.

Turn 4: Worker 3 goes to silks. Ann finishes mine, goes east to avoid barb. Odin W, Conan N, Thor W.

IBT Camulodunum ransacked, lose 65 g

Turn 5: Ann W to road, worker #3 chops silks (I think it is better to chop before roading since chops are quick). Odin W, Conan N, Thor NW, pops hut & gets barbs.

IBT Barb dies attacking Thor. Settler produced.

Turn 6: Odin and settler head for spices. Ann roads, Bee roads, Conan NW, Thor rests.

IBT: Alesia finishes granary. I start a worker as we need them desperately.

Turn 7: Conan N, Thor W, meets Carthage. All civs have IW & the Wheel. Japan has a worker for sale, I buy it. It goes W to mine & road.

Turn 8: Thor SW, Conan N

IBT Finish worker#4

Turn 9: Worker #4 and Bee go north of Alesia. Thor W, Conan NE after being kicked out of China. Worker #3 roads silks, Ann goes W to game. Lux goes to 40%.

IBT Finish settler & curragh.

Turn 10: Curragh goes north. Ann chops, Bee & other worker mine. Conan N, Thor W, Settler south toward hill by game (city site J)

Firaxis score 151
2 turns to mysticism
Both Alesia and Entremont are awkward to manage because of the tiles not yet improved. We need to improve our happiness situation. The silks will help, as will roading some more tiles. (Roading is what allowed us to go to 40% lux in turn 9.)

We'll be out by the spices in a couple of turns, so getting them shouldn't be a problem. Connecting them will take a while, though. The Chinese are connecting furs, and there is incense out by the Mongols.

We've met 4 civs now. I'm pretty sure that China doesn't know Japan or Carthage yet, and Carthage probably doesn't know Japan. I think the Mongols know everyone. They also have all the money. We should consider this when we trade mysticism.

Hmm- looks like some good trading.

Pity about the raid on Camulodunum - I'm sure it couldn't be helped. I've "got it" - will look at it tomorrow night, and post my thoughts....

CiaO 4 NoW

Nice trading there, looks like we should get IW soon enough without having to research it.

Wanderer, try to slip some workers in if you can. We would like for our capital's settler pump to be easy to manage.

Something to consider to research next is Math. We have silks, the earlier we get SoZ the better. I haven't checked the save, so I am not sure where would make a good city to build it, but a free super-Gallic Swordsman every five turns will be great, and the sooner the better. I really dislike researching Polytheism for some reason, I think just because every time I go for it someone beats me to it.

Nice job CKS.


Wanderer, try to slip some workers in if you can. We would like for our capital's settler pump to be easy to manage.
I agree completely with this. We are better off building a couple workers when our settler factories are not able to act as true factories.

I looked at the save and noticed that we are growing a couple of our cities at 4 food. I understand why, but would push for building workers and staying at 5 food for a couple turns. 2 or 3 workers and all of our food bonus cities will have all the terrain improvements they need.

Roster update (I'm going to keep doing this, because there are so many of us that it will be easy to get confused.)
bed_head7
denyd
Whomp
CKS << Just Played
Wanderer << Up
jeffelammar << On Deck

MmmHhhmmm :

Slip in workers (check). What cities ... Entremont and Alesia are our Settler factories, correct? Jef, are you saying that an interm build of wrokers would be useful here, or should they be done at other cities?

Just a question : At what point in time do we envisage "turning off" our settler pumping, and changing to War-mode? when we hit a certain number of cities (e.g. 10) or when we have the right tech (e.g. IW).

Are we in agreement that we are going to go POLY at min sci? I also share Bed's concern about actually achieving POLY first.

Before I get to trading away Mysti, I'll let you know what is available, so we can debate?

Worker Priorities?
Enhance Entremont ... mining grasslands?
Road Silks to Alesia
Road to New city (Spice City)

If we get IW during my turn, and IF we get Iron, then How are we going to get it if it isn't in our area? I.e. colony, or a specific city just for it?

Will post more when I get home, and can look at save in detail

We should be able to trade for IW. The price has come down with all the AI's we know have it. I was hoping the new contacts would produce techs and they did. Nice work CKS. Keep those curraghs moving!
If we can trade for IW with myst do we still try the poly monopoly anyhow or is math a less traveled path?

@ All--IIRC SoZ is made of ivory not spices right?

@ Wanderer--I don't think we are anywhere near finishing off our growth anytime soon. We will want to fill in as much space as possible until our borders are up against the AI. I would say your priorities with workers are
1. developing the land around the core cities and
2. roading the luxs.

Review of Game at: 2550bc

Cities:

size grow-in CPT FPT SPT building (turns) notes Buildings Happiness
Entremont 3 1 2 8 7 settler(5) using 2 mines and forest. Granary 2H,1U
Alesia 4 1 0 12 6(1) settler(5) using wheat,mine,forest and BG Granary 2H,2U
<<note - change BG to BG being mined>>
Lugdunum 2 7 0 7 4 granary(8) using mined plains,forest being chopped. 1H,1C
Chop will boost granary build.
Camulodunum 2 7 0 7 3 curragh (5) using 2 unmined BG. 1H,1U
UNITS:

2 settlers
4 workers
1 slave
3 warriors
1 curragh

SCience:
mysti in 2
sci: 10%
lux: 40%

GOLD:
121
+8gpt

Notes:
silk not connected, Alesia not connected.

Contacts: Techs down Techs up Gold Cities Lux Res
Carthage The wheel, - 0 5 - -
IW
China The wheel, - 0 6 Furs -
IW
Mongols The wheel, - 432 5 - -
IW
Japan The wheel, - 197 9 - -
IW

Trade Possibilities:
carthage IW for 121G and 8gpt = close
Carthage The Wheel for 118G and 5gpt = acceptable
China IW for 121G and 8gpt = close
China The Wheel for 118G and 5gpt = acceptable
Mongols IW for 121G and 8gpt = doubt
Mongols The Wheel for 118G and 5gpt = close
Japan IW for 121G and 8gpt = doubt
Japan The Wheel for 118G and 5gpt = close

Current work:
Silk: road in 2 turns
Ann: Chop forest (lug) in 4 turns
Slave: mine plains in 10 turns
Bee and Worker: mine BG (alesia) in 3 turns

Odin and settler 4 squares from spice. Settler in hill (3 turns)?
Settler SW1,S1 of entremonet. Heading to G or J? Both 3 turns away. I propose G, since workers are near, and can enhance quicker, unless we send workers to Entremont in preference.

Two more turns and you will hopefully have the monopoly tech to trade for everything they got.

Alesia may need to pop a worker before the settler. We are lacking on the worker front. You should be able to hook up the road and silks by the time you go for a settler out of Alesia.

Why is the slave mining plains is there no water?

As CKS said J will be easier to defend for our Spicetown and I would develop Entremont first before sending the worker further out.

Not sure why he is mining - that's how I got him. I think irrigation under despotism will not gain us anything (2f+1f-1f currption)=2f, whereas 2f+1s ... no corruption.

Ok - I'm going ahead. 10 turns, right?

Slip in workers (check). What cities ... Entremont and Alesia are our Settler factories, correct? Jef, are you saying that an interm build of wrokers would be useful here, or should they be done at other cities?

We have 2 cities that should become settler factories, but it sounds like neither one is actually a factory quite yet. Making them both work as factories should be the #1 priority.
The 3rd city (name fails me since I am at work and can't open the save) is 4 turns from chopping its game forest. Then it will be able to run +5 fpt. These three cities, should all run at +5 fpt. If they can't produce the shields to build a settler in 4 turns, then they should do 2 turn workers till the land is improved.
Even so, I think 2 should be settler factories and the other should pump workers. I don't think it makes much different which one does which.


Just a question : At what point in time do we envisage "turning off" our settler pumping, and changing to War-mode? when we hit a certain number of cities (e.g. 10) or when we have the right tech (e.g. IW).

I don't envision shutting them down for a long time either. There is a lot of open territory to our west. We should fill as much of it as we possibly can. The more we claim, the less we have to conquer, and the sooner we can build temples in them.


Are we in agreement that we are going to go POLY at min sci? I also share Bed's concern about actually achieving POLY first.

Before I get to trading away Mysti, I'll let you know what is available, so we can debate?

I'm not sure where we landed. I'm fine with a 50 turn Polytheism gambit, but I think Bed_head's suggestion of Math is also worth considering. I think either is a long shot at this point, but I don't have much experience with C3C tech races.


Worker Priorities?
Enhance Entremont ... mining grasslands?
Road Silks to Alesia
Road to New city (Spice City)

As far as I'm concerned
#1 priority improve the three factories so they can act as such.
#2 connect silks.
#3 build roads west to other cities. (Connecting them and providing roads for the new settlers.)


If we get IW during my turn, and IF we get Iron, then How are we going to get it if it isn't in our area? I.e. colony, or a specific city just for it?

It really depends where it is. Once we know where it is, then we will be able to decide. I'm hoping we can snag some out of the mountain range to our west.

Not sure why he is mining - that's how I got him. I think irrigation under despotism will not gain us anything (2f+1f-1f currption)=2f, whereas 2f+1s ... no corruption.

Ok - I'm going ahead. 10 turns, right?
Plains are only 1f, 1s by default, so irrigating makes it 2f,1s and mining 1f,2s. Unless we really need the shields, I strongly suggest irrigating.

Why is the slave mining plains is there no water?


The slave is mining grassland, not plains. Water won't help for ages. ;)

Hmm - the mining is already happening (CKS) - given that I've already played 2 turns, I think we should let it finish, and irrigate next to it.

OK?

BTw - great news - Mysti tech got us IW,The wheel, and some nice GP, and ... WE HAVE Iron in mountains.

:-)

Techs: I'm leaning more strongly toward math. Yes, ivory is usually the needed resource for SoZ, but not in this game. Here it is silk, and I'd like to be able to take advantage of it. Even if we don't get to math first, it will be worthwhile, and we've got a reasonable chance to get there first.

Settler Factories: I expect to run them most of the game. Even once we start making war, we'll need to fill in cities where the AI built them too far apart.
We need workers to improve them, but we potentially have 4 cities that can do +5 fpt, once we settle by the other game. I'm leaning toward 2 settler pumps and 2 worker ones until we start making war and can capture more foreign workers.

Cities: I don't have a big preference on G vs. J. G is closer, J has more food. Settle them both soon. Build toward the spices and out along the rivers. I was thinking about putting the spice city right on one of the spices, so as to have both in the first nine tiles. This gives us trading possibilities even if we don't get culture or cities out there for a while; we just need the road, which will be a big enough hassle. It gives us coast, but no fresh water and we don't get a forrest chop. The forest to the south gives us fresh water. The hill just gets us there a turn sooner, and blocks some lakeshore city sites.

We need to see what is north of us. The curragh will help. There may be a lot of land there, or there may not be much.

oh, sorry - the mining that is happeneing is on GRASSLANDS and NOT plains. Hence my formula was right (I think), but the tile was wrong ;)

Sorry for the confusion.

WE HAVE Iron in mountains.

:-)
Good deal. How far away is it? What about horses? (Not that I'm greedy or anything.)

Well, a LOT happened. I've tried to write everything in - my later turns won't be this detailed, I promise.

All in all, an OK turn I hope :confused:

The Maths debate was a little too late - i had already committed to Poly, as had been discussed before.

NB NB NB Literature is available to us as a trade from Mongols for 700 gp. We must decide, and let next player do this trade BEFORE ending turn!

TURNLOG

Turn 0: Change tile for Alesia from BG to BG currently being worked.

IBT: China demand that XXX move - we agree, and check out trades. Nothing new.

Turn 1: 1725bc
Alesi size 5 - threatens unhappiness. Lux to 50% gives 2H,1C,2U ... !!!
Settler auto move to Position J - will take 3 turns.
Odin and settler move NW. 2 more turns to city position.
Eric the Curragh moves NE1,E1.
Conan SE1.
Thor SW1.
Check trading - no differences. Next run will be NB - we get Mysti!

IBT: Roads completed - Entremont has Silk. Must get road to Alesia soonest.
Japan demands we remove troops (Eric the Curragh). Check tech - no changes.
WE get Mysticism.
Japan building Pyramids.

Turn 2: 1700bc
Yeehaa - Mysticism on our own. Set next tech to Poly.

First order of business - trading.
China: Mysti +79G for IW and Wheel
Carthage: Mysti +79G for IW and Wheel
Japan: Mysti +115G for IW and Wheel
Mongols: Mysti +115G for IW and Wheel

Since Neither China or Carthage have any money, let's take China - we can get our money back soon, if we get into a war :-)

TRADE:
China: Mysti +79G for IW and Wheel
Carthage: No money, no trade
Japan: Mysti for 227G(all)
Mongols: Mysti for 162G

We have tech equivalnce, with Carthage behind a tech.

YeeHaaa - We have Iron nearby - Mountain SW2 from Alesia. Will send nearest workers to connect.

Thor SW1
Odin and Settler NW1. It is more important to secure the spices, since we are sure to get the iron. The settler from Alesia (3 turns), will build city to get it.
Bob the Builder (worker) moves NW from Silks towards Iron.
Eric the Curragh goes N2.
Conan climbs Mnt. SE1.
Settler closer to J.

IBT: Zzzz

Turn 3 : 1675bc
Conan S1 to next Mnt. Improves view of Chineses lands.
Odin and Settler to city position. Settle next turn.
Bee and Worker start moving to Iron (3 turns to get there).
Bob the builder moves to iron - start road next turn.
ERic the Curragh - NW2 - strange fingers of land.
Thor SW1.
Settler into position J - Build next turn.

Still can't change lux. Settler in 1 will reduce Alesia, though.

Hmm - we can trade Mysti to Carthage for worker. That's equivalent to +-100 gp, and they haven't earned any gold, so I go for it - we need workers.
Send new Slave N1 to irrigate plain - that will be faster than mining grassland, and same effect: 2f1s

Try to MM Entremont to get settler faster - no can do..

REview lux - must stay at 50%.

Notice the Carthage, China and Japan are building Pyramids atm.

IBT:Zzzz

Turn 4: 1650 bc
Alesia build settler. He will get the iron for us. Set to settler (5 turns).

Settler W1. Will settler W2, that will join City near spices to iron and to rest of culture, I believe.
Bob the builder starts roading the iron.
Ann finishes forest chop - send 10 shild to Lugdunum - granary done in 2 now. Mindfull of growth, she start irrigating deer.
Slave Worker Japan 1 tarts irrigating N of Entremont.
Eric the Curragh goes NW1,N1. Water opens before him.
Richborough settled in position J. Will grow in 7, but worker takes only 5. Set to Warrior, and then will change to worker for next build.
Odin and settler settle: Verulamium - the Spice City. Set ro worker (10 turns) growth in 10 turns. This can be vetoes by next player.
Conan W1.
Thor SW1 - see's Incense near mongol lands. Also notice that they have Iron in their borders.
Bee and worker arrive on Iron - will start road next turn.

MM:
Settler in Entromont in 1 turn, so move off of forest and mined BG, onto plains, to free up shields for other cities.
Move deer (3f) to Mined, roaded river BG (2f2s2c) for lugdunum. will set back next turn, so growth is not comprimised (still 2 turns) but 2S gained. That should allow us to build granary in 3 turns. Gain of 1 turn.

Reduce lux to 40% now that Alesia size 4. Can't go lower. Gpt goes from +8 to +11.

IBT:Zzzz

Turn 5: 1625bc

Entremont build Settler. Set to Settler (6) turns. Growth in 2.
Cam build Kevin the curragh 2. set to worker (4) will grow in 2. Corruption seems to indicate MM can't better this atm.

JAPANESE BUILDING ORACLE.

Kevin the Curragh goes E,Se.

Settler (Entremont) heads to position G - will take 3 turns.

Settler (alesia) reaches Iron city position (hope I've figured this correctly!)
Bee and Worker start roading iron. Looks like it will take 3 more turns.

Conan SW1.
Eric the Curragh E2 - following coastline. Spots some oysters.
Thor E1.

MM:
Move Lug to use mined grassland. Granary and grwoth now in 1 turn :)

Trade check. Still tech equal. China still has our 79g. Carthage still has 0g. Japan have 4g. Mongols have 407G. We have 474G.

IBT:Zzzz

Turn6: 1600bc

Lugdunum build granary. Set to worker (5), growth in 5.
Mongols are building Oracle.
Viking city builds Colosus.

Settler (alesia) build Gergovia, get's iron within borders, and joins Verulamium to borders.Growth in 7 - set to worker (10). Next player can veto.
Conan SW1. Hemmed in by chinese borders.

Eric the curragh E2. See a grey flag ahead...
Kevin the Curragh SE1,S1. Should he go E or W?

Thor heads E. There's a LOT of land here!
Settler (Entremont) gets 1 turn from position G - will build in 2 turns.

MM:
Entremont set to use Mined BG, since growth in 1. Gains us 2 shields.

Tade Check: no change.
Lux: no change.

IBT:Zzzz

Turn 7: 1575 BC.

China and Mongols have HBR. China has all of Mongols G - they must have discovered and sold. Mongols must be close to a tech, methinks.
Alesia grows and is unhappy. Set lux to 50%. We need workers - those roads are hurting us.

Trade:
China wants 253G for HBR.
Mongols want 272G.
Trade BHR for 253G with China. Carthage and Japan don't have it. Carthage has 0 Gp. Japan has 7gp.

No horses nearbby :(

conan goes Mnt. Climb again (E1). See Beijing.

ERic the Curragh goes E, and find dark skinned people with red dots. Call themselves indians.
Trade Check:
Indians have (0 horses), (0 dyes), 7 cities, 27 G and no new tech. We have IW and HBR. No trades as yet.

Kevin the curragh goes S2. He spies Dyes on our coast, amongst several Tundra tiles.

Thor goes E1. Spots goodie/barb hut.
Settler (entremont) arrives at postion G. Build next turn.

MM:
Aleasia - move from Iron, so we grow in 3 and not 5. Settler still in 2.
Entremont remains for next turn. Should MM then.
Cam BG moved to Forest. Worker in 1 not 2.

Lux: Now 50%.
Tech: per above.

IBT: Iron connected. We can build GS!!!
India request we move. check trade - no change.

Turn 8 : 1550 bc
Cam build Worker. Set to Worker (4) growth in 6. Next player can veto.

Ann finishes irrigating deer. moves SW to BG for new city.

Settler (Entremont) build Augustodurum in position G. Growth in 7, so sret to warrior (5). Next player can veto.
Bee and Bob the builder and Worker (must rename him) move NE off of iron to improve core.
Conan S1.
Eric the Curragh. NW1,W1.
Kevin the Curragh S1,SE1. Decide E since Thor doing good journey to W on land.
Thor Pops goodie for ....

TECH!
Carthage have writing, we have HBR over them.
China don't have it.
Mongols don't have it.
Japan has it. We have nothing over them.
India don't have it.

Trade Options:
Carthage: HBR+159G for writing
Japan unwilling.
Should I pop hut before or after? I think after.

Trade:
Carthage: HBR+159G for writing
China: writing for 639G. Carthage or Japan would do it anyway.

Thor pops 3 phonecians. Wouldn't a tech have been awesome :) ahh well.

MM: Move around Entremont and Lug. Should gain a turn for Lug. Must MM again next turn.

IBT: Zzzz

Turn 9: 1525bc

Alesia builds settler. Set to Settler - next player can veto.
Richborough builds Warrior. Set to worker (5). Next player can veto.

Set lux to 30%.

Loki the warrior heads S from Richborough.
Ann the worker starts mining BG outside Agustodurum.
Brian the builder (worker) joins Slave N of entremont (still has 3 turns to irrigate) will help next turn.
Bee the worker N to BG NW of Alesia.
Alex the architect and Bob the Builder move NE,E to improve CORE.
Eric the curragh W,N.
Kevin the curragh SE,E.
Thor SE1. Barb's didn't attack.
Conan SE1 - almost through China lands.

Where to take Settler from Alesia. Entremont settler in 2 will get to postiion K faster, so he must rather go to B.


MM:
Entremont gets BG back, settler in 1.

IBT:Carthage kill some barbs.

Turn 10: 1500 bc

Entremont builds Settler. Set to Settler. Next player can veto.
Lugdunum builds Worker. Set to Wroker. Next player can veto.

Inidans are building Oracle.

Mongols have literature :( No one else does.

Bruce the builder (Lug) moves NE to imrpvoe core.
Slave (jap) moves NE to grassland. Irrigate next turn? Next player can decide.
Bob and alex start roading.
Brian finishes irrigate with Slave.
Slave moves SE to join other slave. Thinkin is to road to join Alesia and finally get happiness under control there.
Bee starts mining BG.
Settler builds : Agedincum on site B. Growth in 7, worker would take 5 so set to archer (can't do warrior). Next player to veto and decide.
Conan S breaks free of Chinese borders.
Eric the curragh NE,E.
Loki the warior S. Area around dyes is poor - lots of tundra.
Kevin the curragh E,Se. Spots goodie hut.
Thor N.
Settler from Entremont SW,S .. thinking is to take him to Position K, but next player can decide.

Lux set to 40% for Alesia.

We Can trade Literature with Mongols for 700GP. Temopted, but I think this is an important decision, so I will save here and let next player decide.

Situation:
9 cities
6 workers, 2 slaves
4 warriors
2 curraghs
1 settler
all tech etc. literature - we can get it this TURN!! If we want to - don't let it slip to next TURN.

Link to upload:

I want to second a few good points that have been made. Settler pumps for most if not all of the game. If we do land ToA at any point, something along the lines of ICS would be great. If we have three going, all the better.

And roads. They get settlers to spots faster, they get everything all connected. For the time being, workers and settlers and all out expansion is what we want. Once we running out of room, we can start worrying about what where we'll find more space.

Nice looking turns. I have to go in a couple minutes so can't comment on much, but I will say that you made the right move not buying lit. Buying at monopoly prices is a bad deal for us. We want to make trades where we can make our money back, if it all possible. We don't need literature that badly.

I fear some work still necessary on settler pumps, but at least most workers around core to do this. Perhaps this could have been done better :(

Tech's went ahead quite nicely: we got:
Mysti, IW, THe Wheel, HBR, Writing and can get Literature.

5 more cities, as well.

Hope I didn't tank too badly - the discussion around math's was just too late.

phew - glad I made that call then. So you're ok with the trade for writing ? - I was able to get 480+ gp out of that....

phew - glad I made that call then. So you're ok with the trade for writing ? - I was able to get 480+ gp out of that....
Your trading was very good.

I personally wouldn't have done the HBR trade though. We have no need for it until the end of the era. With a UU that is far better than any horse, we probably won't need it till later, and the cost would have kept going down as we met more civs.

That is a minor gripe though. Good job. I'll play in about 4.5 hours unless someone posts that I should hold up for discussion.

I see that you connected Iron, I am wondering if we want it connected at this point. We haven't built up a bunch of warriors for upgrade yet. If nobody objects, I will probably disconnect it for the time being so we can build some vet warriors. In general I don't like connecting iron until I am ready to start using it.

What do you guys think?

They are an expensive upgrade, so we probably won't build that many. We also have yet to build our first barracks (or temple for that matter), so we'll need to do that before starting building veterans.

As for unhooking it, if we aren't going to be building any GS soon, then by all means yes. As I understand it, only attached resources expire.

Hopefully connecting that second luxury will allow our happy-face spending to drop. I agree with expand, expand, expand as has been stated before. A tight build and lots of cities. With as many wonders as have been started, if Polytheism is traded around soon, ToA will fall to a casade and we'll need to take it rather than build it (not that that is a bad thing :evil: )

BTW: Since I haven't chimed in for a while, nice work to Wanderer & CKS.

I got through my turns, but won't have time to post a log and do the upload till tomorrow after work.

Sorry about that. It is just too late for me to even trust myself to do uploads.

More info tomorrow.

Quick summary
11 cities
2 settlers
12 workers
7 warriors
3 curraghs.
No new contacts
No new techs

Good work Wanderer as nervous you were you did a good job! It was coming to you hot and heavy and you handled it.

We still need more workers. Is it time for a military pump with 13 cities?

Just to help Jeff after his late night.

bed_head7-->up
denyd -->on deck
Whomp
CKS
Wanderer
jeffelammar

First things first The Save File (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/jeffelammar_SG006_BC1250_01.SAV)

In retrospect I should have stopped at 12:30 last night and finished up later. I messed up the Entremont Settler factory on the last couple turns :(

Turn Log

Turn 0 - 1500 BC
None of our settler factories (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=100256) are set to go. Need to get them going...
Switch Entremont to Warrior
Switch Lugdunum to Warrior
Swich Camulodunum to Barracks
MM Alesia up to +5 food per turn
MM Lugdumum off game since it will grow next turn anyway.
MM Augustodurum to use Game

IBT
Thor attacked by barbs. Wins, loses 1 hp and promotes.

Turn 1 - 1475 BC
Bruce roads, Slaves mine, Brian Roads (all between Alesia and Entremont)
Settler heads to spot K.
Mongols still have monopoly on Lit, don't buy.
MM Lugdunum back to game and silks.
Switch Agedincum to Curragh

IBT
Entremont builds Warrior -> Settler (it's borders also expand)

Turn 2 - 1450 BC
Bob south to help road and get Alesia connected next turn.
Alex crosses river towards west to build road.
Warrior from Entremont heads for Alesia to act as MP.
Entertainment to 50%
Still no new trades
MM Alesia back to +5 Food per turn

IBT
Lugdunum builds Warrior -> worker
Richborough builds Worker -> Granary

Turn 3 - 1425 BC
New Worker in Richborough (Karl) -> Game
Bob joins road crew and finishes road. Alesia now in trade network.
The Warrior reaches Alesia and fortifies as MP
Alex roads toward Gergovia
Bruce to nw of Camulodunum
Mongols still Monop on Lit.
MM Lugdunum back to +5 fpt
Entertainment to 30%

IBT
Alesia builds settler -> worker
Verulamium builds Worker -> Temple
Augustodurum builds Warrior -> Temple

Turn 4 - 1400 BC
Bruce to BG near Camulodunum
Bob and Brian irrigate plains by Alesia
Settler to 1 w of goats.
New Worker Joseph to spices.
Karl Chops
Found Eboracum -> Temple (Get dyes ASAP)
Augustodurum warrior heads for Lugdunum
India has learned IW, guess I should have sold them something for 32 gold last turn :(
Brian mines grassland.

IBT
Lugdunum builds worker -> worker.

Turn 5 - 1375 BC
New worker Lyle to silks and starts mine
Pillage the iron
Joseph chops on spices.

IBT
Entremont builds Settler -> settler.
Alesia builds worker -> Worker
Gergovia builds Worker -> Temple

Turn 6 - 1350 BC
Alex to north of Gergovia to road
Bee roads
New Worker Marvin crosses river
New Settler toward Goat River area
New Worker Neville starts road south from Gergovia
Civassist claims we lost iron, I wonder how that happened. :mischief:
MM Entremont back to +5 FPT
Entertainment -> 20%
Brian heads south
Bob heads to Gl to road.

IBT zzzzz

Turn 7 - 1325 BC
Alex, Neville and the Slaves start on roads.
Marvin and Brian move onto BGs,
Eric crosses to another land mass from near India.
Japan knows lit (we could buy for 332g, don't need it yet)
Entertainment -> 30%

IBT
Alesia builds Worker -> Settler
Agedinium builds Curragh -> Barracks

Turn 8 - 1300 BC
Craig the new Curragh moves north
New Worker Oliver moves out (didn't write down where)
Found Burdigala 1 nw of Goats. Start on Barracks.
Karl irrigates plains.
MM cities back to +5 fpt and optimize shield use.
Taxes back to 20% entertain.

IBT
India starts Pyramids.

Turn 9 - 1275 BC
Joseph roads on spices
Explore and continue improving terrain (Can you tell I was tired when I got here?)
Notice I screwed up Entremont last turn. It only has 4 food in box. Crap. Will delay settler 1 turn to make sure we are ready for the next factory cycle.
Entertainment -> 30%

IBT
Appologize to Mongols for my warrior passing through.
Lugdunum builds Settler -> Worker
Mongols start the Great Library. Hope they get it.

Turn 10 - 1250 BC
Reset Entremont to be a factory again.
Continue improving land.

After action report
There are two settlers.
I'll attach a map that shows where I think they are going. I have circled the settlers and put a few dots in possible places to settle. (oops sorry forgot to label them)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SGOTM6JeffeMap1250.jpg

Alex, Bee and Oliver are all in places where I think they should start roads next turn.

Factory Status
Entremont is set to start a 4 turn settlerfactory cycle (Shield cycle is 6 - 14 - 21 - 30) with the +2 every other turn from the auto selected forest.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SGOTM6JeffeEntremont1250.jpg


Alesia is in a 4 turn settler fa