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mad-bax
Feb 05, 2005, 02:22 PM
SGOTM6 - Celts. Team RowAndLive.

Welcome to your team thread for SGOTM06. I hope you enjoy the game.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM6-START.jpg

Map Parameters
Playable Civ - Celts
World size - 100 wide by 130 high.
Difficulty Emperor (approximately)
Landform Contiguous Pangea

Here are a number of links you might find useful.

The Constitution (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1733966&postcount=61)
GOTM Reference Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=71788)
Upload a Save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm.php)
Download a save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php)
SGOTM06 Maintenance Thread. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=110909)

This Months' sponsored variant is Cultural Celtic Communists the rules for which are as follows.

1. The only allowed governments are despotism and communism.
2. You must win by 100K victory condition.

Your save has been uploaded to the server and will become available to you on the 7th February.

Durkz
Feb 05, 2005, 03:20 PM
ok im game

Team R&L
Software: PTW 1.27
Durkz
MOTH
rrau
Elmarae
jb1964
RowAndLive

MOTH
Feb 05, 2005, 03:24 PM
Checking in. I've got some pre-game analysis I've done that I will upload after the baby takes a nap.

MOTH
Feb 05, 2005, 04:51 PM
Pre-game analysis.

Fog-gazing: NW of the Game I believe there is something. Spices or Dyes maybe.

Settlement location - not counting the mountains as usefull:
In Place: 1 Cow (with slow improvement possibilities), 4 BG, 3 Forest, 1 Hill, 9 River, 2 Fog (plains and forest?)
2 spots NE: 1 Cow (as above), 1 Wheat, 1 BG, 1 Hill, 6 River, 8 fog (4 plains, 1 coast, 3 ?)
2 spots NW: 1 Wheat, 1 Game, 2 BG, 13 River, 2 Forest, 2 Hills, 8 Fog (1 plains, 1 Lux, 1 hill, 2 Grass, 3 ?)

The best spot IMO is 2 NW. I've done initial planning and we could have a 4-turn settler pump running by turn 38 assuming that we get Masonry by turn 18 and get at least 1 bonusgrass in the fog. Production order through turn 38: 2 warriors, granary, worker, settler, temple, settler.

rrau
Feb 05, 2005, 05:40 PM
Checking in. What does everyone think of setting up a 1 turn warrior factory somewhere that's not connected by roads and using them to decrease the time where we can pop rush temples. Also I was thinking of building 2 fairly normal rings for production and then settling every other spot in rings to really pack the cities in. After they pop rush temples, set them to wealth.

MOTH - I haven't had time to analyze your start recommendations yet. I'll do that.

[edit] MOTH - 2 nw is my preference as well. It almost looks like the contours of that water will make it a lake. Also, to the very SE, I think there might be some incense.

Durkz
Feb 05, 2005, 06:34 PM
here's a litle of fog gazing
http://img220.exs.cx/img220/8379/sgotm6start1xy.jpg
yea i agree settle 2 NW. best place
we should go for RCP 3 iner 7 outer ring

MOTH
Feb 05, 2005, 08:50 PM
Thoughts on strategies:
Rings 3 and 7 are good with me followed by ICS.

Initial Research: Pottery (not Masonry like I said above), BW, IW, Alpha, Writing, Lit.

Builds: As many veteran warriors as we can get as this is a cheap way to get our UU. The only real thing to spend cash on is for unit upgrades.

Wonders: FP as soon as we can in one of the Ring 3 cities.
Pyramids - discussion point - see below.

Pop rushes - after Temple it will depend on how fast we get to Lit. If we can build part of the way there we might not have to pop rush some of the Libraries. We can also pump some workers out of the corrupt cities.

Pyramids - This is a key wonder in a 100K game and more so in this varient. I think we should build it ourselves to guarentee that it is not built some large distance away

War-mongering - We have a great UU for AA conquest. We need to take full advantage and try and get to the domination limit asap. Hopefully before Pikes. Buildin warriors and upgrading to GS is a good method.

jb1964
Feb 05, 2005, 10:18 PM
Checking in...

Analysis seems sound. Go w/ the start 2NW.

Do we need to have any discussiong regarding the order. I'm not an early round kinda player so spot 5/6 is fine w/ me.

Elmarae
Feb 06, 2005, 02:26 AM
Checking in!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SGOTM6-Fog-Gazing.jpg

First moves should be Worker to W to reveal the R then Settler to S to reveal the R

The I? isn't Incense. It is a pine tree forest which indicates Tundra as the base land. Incense appears on Hills or Desert.

I agree that settling on the O at this point appears to be the best location.

I've never done a 100k victory before, I'm too much of a warmonger with minor builder tendancies, my normal habit is to not build many improvements until well into the game. So this is will be a good step outside my comfort zone.

In PTW the FP is better to be a second core, rather than close to the palace as in C3C. A loose build around the palace and a tight or ICS build around the FP gives the least corruption.

I'm fine with the 4th position start or so.

Durkz
Feb 06, 2005, 01:05 PM
im for the FP in the second ring 2
and i vote for the pyramids because we will have a 4 turn settler factory so the pyramids wont slow down our expansion
i agree on warrior to GS upgrade. this will boost us very much so we can go to war with the first and closest civ we ecounter

it's pangea so the tech race will be fast so we have to start wars amongst other civs to slow it down. this will enable our UU to realy shine and will weaken other civs before our attack

If you dont mind i would like to play first so:
Durkz - UP (firs to play :D )
MOTH -On deck
rrau
Elmarae
jb1964
RowAndLive - not cheked in yet

RowAndLive
Feb 06, 2005, 04:01 PM
Checked in.

I don't mind 2NW for the start, and don't care where I am in the order.

I would go for the settler fcty, then perhaps settlers with the second city also. Early expansion is the first piece of the puzzle. Second will be a wonder, although I prefer colossus, I'm sure there's a good analysis out there somewhere. Conquest is next. I also subscribe to not needing temples or libs early, just get the cities built.

Welcome all, and a good sendoff to Durkz!

Provided that there is no resistance, I'd like to modify the order, switching jb to be between the 2 ladies. I also have no problem re-ordering the roster when we get into wars or build phases to best fit our strengths if need be.
Lastly, I will likely be taking 5-turn sets once we hit the IA, just to keep the game moving. Whatever will keep our momentum up is probably best. If you can't start within 24, or finish within 72, then please cut it short and post, unless you've got a key goal in process.

EDIT: Incedentally, I believe that ICS is forbidden as one of the rules.

rrau
Feb 06, 2005, 04:11 PM
for MOTH and Durkz, I'm the other lady *smiles*

RowAndLive
Feb 06, 2005, 04:12 PM
for MOTH and Durkz, I'm the other lady *smiles*

And a very regal one at that! Just watch out for the sword in her hand...

mad-bax
Feb 06, 2005, 04:16 PM
ICS is not forbidden. The rules for the game are standard GOTM rules. The GOTM Reference Thread will tell you what they are. It is linked in the first post of this thread.

Without wishing to sound patronising (which immediately sounds patronising - sorry :blush: ) Please don't guess the rules. If you are not sure, just ask in the reference thread, or PM me. It's going to be difficult enough without tying your own hands behind you back. Trust me. ;)

RowAndLive
Feb 06, 2005, 04:18 PM
Sorry, M-B. I didn't think that I was guessing. It must have been outlawed in a different SG. My bad!

Durkz
Feb 06, 2005, 04:23 PM
for MOTH and Durkz, I'm the other lady *smiles*
:wavey: good to know :mischief:

MOTH
Feb 06, 2005, 04:49 PM
Here is my plan for getting the settler factory up and running. I am doing a couple of things that usually aren't done (such as leaving a tile before roading it).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sg6ralstart1.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sg6ralstart2.JPG

We are a 4 turn settler pump starting on turn 38 with the production of our 3rd settler. We must have Pottery by the end of turn 18 or start of 19 if using Big Picture to switch production from Temple pre-build to Granary. We end up building a temple before we hit size 5 using output from forest chop.

rrau
Feb 06, 2005, 05:06 PM
MOTH, I like your spreadsheet.

After researching pottery, are we going to continue at max research or decrease it to start saving money for warrior upgrades?

If we want the pyramids, we're going to have to trade for or buy Masonry from someone (according to the current proposed tech order) and on a pangea map, we can get behind on trading techs very fast and might need the gold to get the trade. Also, research in despotism is going to be very slow after the AA. That's one reason I was proposing to switch the ICS cities to wealth after pop-rushing their temples. It will get us more money to buy techs or upgrade warriors.

What's everyone's thoughts?

Durkz
Feb 06, 2005, 06:01 PM
wow GREAT MM spreadsheet m8 :goodjob:

we can do a granary prebuild for Pyramids in some other town and if we dont get masonry by the time we can switch from granary to oracle (or colosus if coastal) and continue prebuild until we can get masonry

Elmarae
Feb 06, 2005, 07:59 PM
ICS is not forbidden.
So we are allowed to Investigate Competitors Savegames? sweet! :mischief:
*runs and hides*

Another thing to remember is everyone has to do the variant, which is Depotism and Communism are the only allowed govs. :eek:

So that means we don't have to worry about getting the other govs but we should try and research to communism which is an Industrial age tech :eek:

RowAndLive
Feb 06, 2005, 09:39 PM
Very thorough plan, MOTH. Thank you!

MOTH
Feb 07, 2005, 06:43 AM
I downloaded the save and took a look. The water is coast, not lake, so that cow will probably be unimproved until we get map making. Also, our competition in game is:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sg6space.JPG

MOTH
Feb 07, 2005, 08:16 AM
Edit: I had a lot more comments in response to others coments that I lost when IE crashed. I will recreate and make a new post.

The save is here for easy access: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/RowAndLive_SG006_BC4000_01.SAV


we can do a granary prebuild for Pyramids in some other town and if we dont get masonry by the time we can switch from granary to oracle (or colosus if coastal) and continue prebuild until we can get masonry

I forgot about this until I saw the comment. We have a pre-build from the start of the game: Heroic Epic. We can use this as a pre-build for our initial Granary as well as for Pyramids.

Now for some new discussion points for 50+ turns from now:
I saw it posted that the map is a contigous Panagea map that was modified (or built) by hand. It would not suprise me if we are on one end of a huge snake continent with the early UU civs next in line down the snake. Babylonians, Vikings, Carthaginians, Iroquois, etc. This could make getting map making more important than going for Lit and Libraries. Even the Great Lighthouse could be very important as it allows us to move 3 coast tiles instead of 2.

As far as Palace jumps, I know the theory, but I have never done one. Is anyone adept at the art of calculating and performing these jumps?

mad-bax
Feb 07, 2005, 08:24 AM
There is a war academy article by DaveMcW on Free Jumping. It is accurate.

MOTH
Feb 07, 2005, 09:04 AM
Recreate post with comments on various comments:

Thanks for all the nice posts about my spreadsheet. I usually have excellent GOTM starts where I sometimes even beat the elite players. My games then fall apart in the mid-game. Well, not fall apart, but not progress really fast. I am a builder at heart and have been trying to change my spots for play in the GOTMs.

BTW, If we don't end up with a 3rd bg then I will calculate where and when to either irrigate a plains or mine a grass to get the needed production. If we do get another bg then the settler pump can run as 4-turns with no MM once we mine the additional bg. I'm going to start looking at Irrigating the game instead of mining it to see where that would get us. Maybe a size 5-6 warrior/settler pump?

As always, this is a team game and I welcome discussions and arguments. I will often comment with something that I believe to be true but could be a figment of my imagination. If you think I said something stupid, please feel free to comment. Expect stupid comments on war mongering (as this is my weak area).

I've never done a 100k victory before, I'm too much of a warmonger with minor builder tendancies, my normal habit is to not build many improvements until well into the game. So this is will be a good step outside my comfort zone.

In PTW the FP is better to be a second core, rather than close to the palace as in C3C. A loose build around the palace and a tight or ICS build around the FP gives the least corruption.

We are in my comfort zone. I'll try and make sure we are building enough culture as we go.

As for the FP, a key to quick 100K will be to move the Palace a lot. As such we should build the FP in our initial core as this will be the only constart low corruption area we will have for the entire game. We also will need to leave some gaps (RCP 4?) in our ICS pattern as jump targets for the Palace so that we continue to have low corruption in our initial core.

I would go for the settler fcty, then perhaps settlers with the second city also. Early expansion is the first piece of the puzzle. Second will be a wonder, although I prefer colossus, I'm sure there's a good analysis out there somewhere. Conquest is next. I also subscribe to not needing temples or libs early, just get the cities built.

...snip...
switching jb to be between the 2 ladies.

in reverse order...

rrau checked in as one of the ladies. I assume that Elmarae is the other but I just want to be sure.

We should build temples and libraries as surplus population allows. Once we have a warrior pump running then 1 cycle as temple instead with a 20 shield pop-rush gets some culture. Libraries are tougher, but our 50 shield UU can be a key short-rush object. For libraries I could see the following sequence: turn x: 10 shields in the bank, turn x+1: pop-rush GS (using 2 pop) and switch to library, after 10 more shields (60 in bank) pop rush Library. We could also possibly use a 30 sheild unit as an intermediate rush before the GS, but the whiping penalty is the same. We can possibly spread the whip unhappiness arround somewhat.

The only critical wonder in the early game is the Pyramids. We must have this wonder as it allows quicker pop-rushing. The Colossus is also nice in one of the core cities when topped of later with one (or two) of the double science wonders.

I agree that early expansion is key and 2 settler factories would be ideal. I propose a rough city plan as follows (assuming adequet locations):
Cities 1 and 2: settlers (and some workers when needed)
City 3: barracks and warriors (for MP and later upgrades)
City 4: Pyramids
City 5: worker pump
City 6: Colossus
City 7-10: barracks and warriors.

After researching pottery, are we going to continue at max research or decrease it to start saving money for warrior upgrades?

If we want the pyramids, we're going to have to trade for or buy Masonry from someone (according to the current proposed tech order) and on a pangea map, we can get behind on trading techs very fast and might need the gold to get the trade. Also, research in despotism is going to be very slow after the AA. That's one reason I was proposing to switch the ICS cities to wealth after pop-rushing their temples. It will get us more money to buy techs or upgrade warriors.

What's everyone's thoughts?

After getting Pottery I think we should continue full speed towards IW. We will need to get Masonry pretty quickly. Possibly before IW while we build up our warriors.

The post above in response to Durkz would have gone here in my original message. Go read about our pre-build and other thoughts.

MOTH
Feb 07, 2005, 10:42 AM
Some more thoughts on techs:
We start with WC and CB (3 others have WC and 4 have CB).

5 Nations start with Pottery (Mongols, England, Iroquois, Vikings, America)
4 Nations start with Masonry (France, Carthage, China, America)

1 Nation starts with Bronze Working (Babylon)

Bronze Working and then Iron Working would seem to have the most promise as far as trading techs go.

RowAndLive
Feb 07, 2005, 12:24 PM
Some more thoughts on techs:
We start with WC and CB (3 others have WC and 4 have CB).

5 Nations start with Pottery (Mongols, England, Iroquois, Vikings, America)
4 Nations start with Masonry (France, Carthage, China, America)

1 Nation starts with Bronze Working (Babylon)

Bronze Working and then Iron Working would seem to have the most promise as far as trading techs go.

This path also continues to construction, but it is an expensive path, and others (AI) will likely choose it for the defense. Wheel > HBR is always fairly quick, and not too expensive. Unfortunately, it doesn't trade up for much on the top path. I think that perhaps going to Math > Currency might be the most productive.

In the long run, I expect that Commercial will be our biggest contention (if they survive long enough).

Durkz
Feb 07, 2005, 03:20 PM
ok i downloaded the starting save and will play the first 20 turns.
after seeing MOTHS spreadsheet i realized that i dont play openings in the right way but thanx to MOTHS ss i will have no problem.

good we have HE as a prebuild it will shurly make building pyramids easyer

i dont think that we realy need to jump a palace because the curent location will be a powerhouse in the future, but than it realy depends on the map configuration and on starting position. but its early to discus the P jump

MOTH
Feb 07, 2005, 04:27 PM
Just remember that my SS might not be perfect and it doesn't include mood management. Turn 12 is one where I'm not really sure what happens when the borders expand. If we are short a couple shields then I will adjust the plan during my turns. Food is the most important part of the picture followed by worker turns.

jb1964
Feb 07, 2005, 04:42 PM
I can only assume that R&L wants to place me between the ladies to act as a buffer to their otherwise unchecked bloodlust. :D

Durkz
Feb 07, 2005, 05:05 PM
MOTH your SS is wery good everything was as you have planed

and I have problem with that GOTM resurces the dont show in my civilopedia right and i suspect that they are not showing in the game. ( i have right clicked the most critical tiles to chek it if there are some of these resurces hidden from my sight so it didnt affect my turns at all. and just a note I SAW sheep in PTW test save.

0. 4000 BC -- worker NE, settler NW, Good news there are silks very near our future capital(in it's radius).
1. 3950 BC -- worker NW, settler NW.
2. 3900 BC -- settle Entremont, worker mine bg. bad news no new bg in our capitals radius (but it might be some under a forest).Set reasearch at 100% for pottery 20 turns.warior in 5.
3. 850 BC -- nothing.
4. 3800 BC -- nada.
5. 3750 BC -- nothing.
6. 3700 BC -- warrior in 1 pottery in 16.
7. 3650 BC -- we get our first military unit "the mighty warrior" rename him to MOTH and send him N.
8. 3600 BC -- worker finishes mine and i move him N, MOTH goes N and reveals another river and a wheat near it ( it look like a posibility for a new settler factory)
9. 3550 BC -- MOTH goes W and reveals 2 BG and a coast. worker irigates the Wh.
10. 3500 BC -- MOTH goes N some plains and G forest. worker works (lol). the second warrior in 1 turn potery in 12.
11. 3450 BC -- RowandLive is born (the warrior #2) he moves W and reveal some mountains, MOTH goes NE and reveals more plains and coast. Entermont grows in 1, set production to HE.
12. 3400 BC -- RowandLive goes W and reveals a goodie hut. Lux-slider to 20 % entermon is size 2 now. MOTH goes N and reveals coast. Pottery in 10.
13. 3350 BC -- MOTH goes E reveals coast and the land route breaks i will send MOTH south and RowandLive will go N. worker finished the irigation and i move him S (just like in the spreadsheet :) )
14. 3300 BC -- RowandLive pops a goodie hut and a village is deserted blah :( and there is a barbarian willage W from it (will not attack it it's too risky to lose R&L now when we need him for exploration). MOTH goes south. worker starts roading BG.
15. 3250 BC -- R&L NW and he reveals a barb warrior on a goodie hut ( blah cant resist a goodie hut must kill him).
IBT: that barb warrior leaves that goodie hut on a moutain, he probably saw some1. But who?
16. 3200 BC -- R&L goes W 1 tile from goodie hut.
17. 3150 BC -- Worker W>S (yes i'm followin the ss wery nicely). R&L W blah.. no luck with GH "Seljuk" barbs spawn. MOTH goes S. Capital grows to size 3 lux slider to 30% pottery in 5. No sign of eny1 right now ( that warrior which moved is now fortified on a tile next to the place where GH was. MOTH S.
IBT:Two barbs attack R&L and promote him to a vet with 2 HP down.
18. 3100 BC -- Worker starting to mine BG, R&L fortifies, MOTH S.
19. 3050 BC -- MOTH goes S.
20. 3000 BC -- R&L is healty again and i move him to destroy that vilage ( it can do us some trouble when we start expansion). pottery in 2, MOTH goes NW.

Firaxis score 75, Gold 10.


The SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/RowAndLive_SG006_BC3000_01.SAV)

Durkz
Feb 07, 2005, 05:11 PM
Durkz -Just played
MOTH - UP
rrau - On deck
jb1964
Elmarae
RowAndLive

MOTH
Feb 07, 2005, 05:38 PM
Got it. I will recalculate the SS to account for no bg. I may recall MOTH to act as MP as we might need to be a size 4.5-6 settler factory to account for missing shields. Maybe we can get another warrior out at some point to even things out. I should play this evening but first I've got to go to UPS to pickup my sweetie's new PDA/MP3 player (or face unchecked bloodlust.)

Durkz
Feb 07, 2005, 06:08 PM
man im looking like this -----> :dubious:
must get some sleep it's past 1 AM here and i have school tomorow
hey good luck man :goodjob: you are the :king:

MOTH
Feb 07, 2005, 09:59 PM
pre-flight: everything looks good. Hit Space.

2950(1) - Adjust slider as Pottery is due in 1. We get +1 gpt.

IBT- Pottery comes in.

2900(2) - Switch Heroic Epic to Granary in 2 turns. R&L attacks barb camp and loses 2 but kills it. There is another barb nearby that is redlined from someone else. I set BW to 10% in 40 turns to see if we contact someone and can buy it instead. MOTH is acting as MP.

IBT - We get some walls on our Cave. We don't see anyone else. I realize if the barb was redlined it is because it killed someone else's unit.

2850(3) - zzz

IBT - Granary>Worker

2800(4) - MM for a little more gold. Worker >W.

IBT - Barb next to R&L is killed by a Mongols Warrior.

2750(5) - The Mongols have 256G, BW, Masonry, Alphabet, The Wheel, Mysticism and Communications (and therfore Writing) with Japan, Carthage, China, Iroquois, and India! They also have 2 cities. They won
t sell anything.

IBT - Worker (named Durkz) >settler

2710(6) - Turn research off to try and buy BW once Mongols sell our contacts. I also send MOTH back out to try and find someone ourselves. R&L keeps Mongols in sight as we don't want them to walk into Entremont. Durkz>S.

2670(7) - MM Entre for more gold from the Silks.

2630(8) - R&L Following Mongol Warrior towards west.

IBT - Mongol heads east.

2590(9) - MOTH finds a Game in the South and the coast. MM Entremont for growth in 1 and should be Settler in 1 with growth. Lux back to 40%.

IBT - Settler>Temple.

2550(10) - MM for production for a turn. MOTH confims the coast and spots a Dyes. R&L finds a Chinese warrior. They are down CB and Pottery and up BW and Masonry. Durkz>SW

Firaxis score: 92
Jason score: 31

The Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/RowAndLive_SG006_BC2550_01.SAV

Post flight - I have left the Settler with Movement available so that we can decide the next city location.
We are in a big tech hole to the Mongols already. I did not trade with China, but I think we need to do thaat right away (before the mongols sell them something).

The lack of BG delays the settler pump by 1 turn (turn 43 instead of 42).
Upcoming work to get the settler pump running:
Durkz - Mine the tile he just moved to (and then road it).
eqWorker - Finish the chop, then Mine the Game tile.
Labor allocation:

turn # tiles worked
30 Game, bgm2
31 Wheat, bgm2
32 no changes - forest on growth
33 Wheat, Game, bgm2
34 no changes - temple finishes - start settler
35 no changes - forest on growth - chop will finish this turn
36 Wheat,Game, bgm2, any grass
37 no changes - forest on growth - settler finishes - start setter
38 Wheat,bgm2,forest - intentionally slow food.
39 no changes
40 Wheat,Game, bgm, forest - forest on growth
41 Wheat,Game,bgm2,mined grass
42 no changes - forest on growth
43 Wheat,Game,bgm2 - first turn of settler pump
44 no changes - forest on growth
45 Wheat,Game,bgm2,mined grass
46 no changes - forest on growth


Dotmap:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SG6dotmap.JPG

I think we should should consider settling at RCP4 instead of 3. There seem to be better sites at RCP 4 IMHO.

MOTH
Feb 07, 2005, 10:13 PM
Looking at the dotmap again, I guess that RCP 3 isn't too bad. 5 and 6 are both on BG, but the locations are worth it (5 gets the cow and game in range and 6 gets a river). I also think location 2.5 is better than either 2 or 3 and spaces out the ring nicely. I'm also not sure how much of RCP7 will fit nicely. We may want to consider RCP6 for the second ring.

Oh, and I lost track of the mongol warrior. He was last seen 2 tiles dead east from RowandLive's current position. He could be 5 turns from reaching Entremont. If he shows up we might have to toss the Temple and build an archer or warrior.

Its bedtime for me now.

Rotation:
Durkz
MOTH -Just played
rrau - Up
jb1964 - On deck
Elmarae
RowAndLive

rrau
Feb 07, 2005, 10:18 PM
MOTH are the blue circles the ring 4 sites? I usually use mapstat and don't count them out by hand :blush: .

I like the blue circle N of the wheat between the pink 1 & 2 circles for our next city as it would also be able to get settlers out fairly quickly.

I got it, but won't play until tomorrow night after work. This will give everyone time to vote for the next city site.

MOTH
Feb 08, 2005, 05:23 AM
The blue were supposed to be rcp 4 sites, but I screwed up the 2 in the north. SE or SW of the one you indicated looks good to me. I should really use Crp Rings more often...

MOTH
Feb 08, 2005, 05:44 AM
Updated dot map:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/dotmap.JPG

jb1964
Feb 08, 2005, 10:22 AM
RCP4 seems to have plenty of good river placement options.
RCP3 has the advantage of being more defensible.
I'm not thrilled about placing any city on a BG unless the surrounding territory gives us a favorable spt capacity without it.

RowAndLive
Feb 08, 2005, 11:30 AM
I can only assume that R&L wants to place me between the ladies to act as a buffer to their otherwise unchecked bloodlust. :D

Yes! That was exactly it! Us meek builder types need those fierce ladies between us.

Nicely played out Durkz & MOTH. A big OUCH on the Mongols. Please note that by having horsemen, they are also up HBR. Sounds like a pile o' GH for them. We'll have to check the points graph.

Please correct me if I'm wrong (which is likely), but IIRC, irrigating wheat serves no purpose in despotism. We are stuck in despotism, therefore mine the wheat.

I much prefer RCP at 4 in this case, as a few of the 3 sites were on BGs.

rrau
Feb 08, 2005, 12:10 PM
What do you think of the forest NE of the wheat for the first city. It's only drawback is it misses coast by 1 tile so we'll have a couple coastal tiles that are pretty useless. On the build order: worker first then granary OR worker, settler, granary? Or does someone have other suggestions. I'd like to get a third city out soon to start a rax and then vet warriors (maybe some archers as it sounds like barbs could be brutal)

jb1964
Feb 08, 2005, 01:27 PM
Regarding the wheat...

Food Production... Base + Wheat + Irrigate = Total, Despot (Total -1)

Plains (1+2+1=4) 3
Grass/BG (2+2+1=5) 4
Flood (3+2+1=6) 5

An irrigated wheat on any tile is a gain in total food under despotism.

jb1964
Feb 08, 2005, 01:34 PM
Man, it looks like the Mongols were started out w/ about 5 free techs. We need to get what we can from the Chinese and make the other contacts on our pangea ASAP.

Just another requirement to overconstrain the problem at hand. :scan:

Elmarae
Feb 08, 2005, 02:29 PM
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/RLSG6-2550BC.jpg

Rings
3 a-c :There are too few locations in ring 3 unless we do the corners as well but then that would be too crowding on the capital.

4 a-i : I like all those locations especially 4f & 4e which would give us use of the cow unimproved though. Not sure if 4g & 4f would give us use of the game without border expansion. 4c and 4d is a matter of choice. 4a and 4b both miss the coast. Most of the 4 sites are on rivers.

5 a-d : Not as many sites, ahh noticed I missed one site N of 4a, and the hill between 5a & 6b.

6 a-d : Also looks poor possible sites. Though 6d sits on tundra wll access to a few grassland squares.

7 a-g : Some nice sites. 7a gives us the goats. We could either do 2 cities at 7c & 7e or one at 7d. 7f or 7g give us access to the dye after border expansion.

So my vote is for 4 & 7 ring.

Yes! That was exactly it! Us meek builder types need those fierce ladies between us.I'm not fierce! I have building tendacies. How else can I afford the military I like to use to wage war?
If you say I am fierce again I will have to show you how good I am with a sword... :evil:

MOTH
Feb 08, 2005, 03:35 PM
I vote for rings 4 and 7.

We have 1 settler now: I vote location 4b.

We are going to get 1 more settler during rrau's turns (on turn 38): I vote for 4f.

We are also going to get 2 settlers during jb's turns (turns 43 and 47): 4h and then 4a.

Not to get the horse to far ahead of the cart, but there will be 3 during Elmarae's turns (51,55,59): 7a, 4g, 4c

As for builds, I think:
4a should build a barracks and then warriors and ocasional workers.
4f should build a temple as soon as it has 10 sheilds and pop2 via pop-rush (to expand and get Game and Cow). Then work towards being our second 4-turn settler pump (cow and irrigated game should be 5 surplus food).

rrau
Feb 08, 2005, 09:19 PM
preflight (2550bc)

move settler towards Elmarae's spot 4b.
Trade China Pottery and CB for BW + 10g
Start IW at max

ibt: zzz

turn 1 (2510bc)

MOTH & R&L move. MOTH ends next to barb camp. Durkz starts mining.

ibt: a dark red border appears taking the cow that was planned for our next city site. Barb is heading towards our city.

turn 2 (2470bc)

Attacked barb camp with MOTH and he died
Switch Entremont from temple to archer to save our workers.

turn 3 (2430bc)

not much

turn 4 (2390bc)

archer leaves to hunt barbs. Settler started.

turn 5 (2350bc)

We now have contact with India, but can't buy anything.

ibt: The mongol warrior attacked the 2 barbs heading towards our town and killed one and then the barb attacked him and died. the Mongol warrior is now elite.

turn 6 (2310bc)

Send our regular archer towards the barb hut.

ibt: Contact with us was sold to a lot of people

turn 7 (2270bc)

Still can't afford anything
attack another barb spawned by the hut with the archer. Archer wins, but hurt.

turn 8 (2230bc)

start settler to 4h since 4f is not going to get us the cow.

turn 9 (2190bc)

attack and destroy barb camp and get 25g.
We can finally afford to buy IW from India for 90g (cheapest). We have iron nearby.

turn 10 (2150bc)

archer rests. Settler moves. MM Entremont.


Notes:

1. after archer rests, see if he can meet the dark red AI. From the list of the ones we don't know, I think it's Japan (maybe get some 2fer trades).

2. I think Minimum science (or even no science - I'm in an emperor level sg with no research and I'm surprised by how easy it is to stay caught up) and buying techs or using pointy stick research is the way to go.

3. If we go with min science we can buy Masonry from India for 19g + 3 gpt so we can start the pyramids somewhere. (1 civ building colossus and 2 building oracle)

4. We're down at least Masonry, Alphabet, Wheel, Mysticism by all known civs. (if not more)

5. Since I built an archer in place of the temple, should we switch the current settler to a temple?

6. We're one turn into researching Masonry at minimum (I forgot to switch it after buying IW as on solo games, I set cascades of techs) If we want to switch to Alphabet, it's not that much of a loss.

Firaxis: 109
Jason: 37

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/RowAndLive_SG006_BC2150_01.SAV

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sgotm6R&L2150bc.jpg

jb1964
Feb 08, 2005, 10:09 PM
Got it. Will play tomorrow.

MOTH
Feb 08, 2005, 10:34 PM
5. Since I built an archer in place of the temple, should we switch the current settler to a temple?

Let's build a warrior after the current settler finishes and keep him in Entremont as MP. This should get us back to size 4 before starting the next settler and the MP should help with happiness management. We'll wait to build the temple until we have more cities in place that can share our food bonuses.

MOTH
Feb 09, 2005, 07:58 AM
I just took a look at the save via CivAssist. It looks like we are on track to becoming the 4-turn settler factory even without building the temple or warrior. If CivAssist is telling me the truth, then we are at size 4 with 14 shields in the bank.

We will always work the Game and Wheat for +5 food. This means we need to MM after we grow each time. Don't stress if you miss the MM. It will delay the next settler 1 turn as we may need to grow back from size 3.

Turn 40: grow to size 5 - +7 to 21 shields with forest on growth.
Turn 41: size 5 - +6 to 27 shields. MM for food.
Turn 42: grow to size 6 - +8 shields to 35 with forest on growth. Build settler.
Turn 43: size 4 - +6 sheilds, Game Mine finishes. MM for food.
Turn 44: grow to size 5 - +8 shields to 14 with forest on growth.
Turn 45: size 5 - +7 shields to 21 MM for food.
Turn 46: grow to size 6 - +9 shields to 30 with forest on growth. Build settler.
Repeat 43-46 forever and ever.

RowAndLive
Feb 09, 2005, 09:17 AM
I vote 4b, 4f, 4a, 4h in that order.

Thoughts:

Q2. I think Minimum science (or even no science - I'm in an emperor level sg with no research and I'm surprised by how easy it is to stay caught up) and buying techs or using pointy stick research is the way to go.
A: I'd say min on the most expensive one, not no research. It's too early in the game, and we're currently too small to only be amassing the cash for buying techs. Right now we need settlers.

Q3. If we go with min science we can buy Masonry from India for 19g + 3 gpt so we can start the pyramids somewhere. (1 civ building colossus and 2 building oracle)
A: I like this idea.

Q5. Since I built an archer in place of the temple, should we switch the current settler to a temple?
A: No. Temples aren't as impartnat as cities at this point. We can fight the culture wars later if someone fills a gap. In that case, our larger size will allow faster temples & libs, thus flips.

Q6. We're one turn into researching Masonry at minimum (I forgot to switch it after buying IW as on solo games, I set cascades of techs) If we want to switch to Alphabet, it's not that much of a loss.
A: Buy Masonry & research Alpha.

Elmarae
Feb 09, 2005, 03:05 PM
Another thing to be constantly aware of (this is mostly for me) is because we won't ever have a government that can cash rush the only reason we will need gold is to buy techs, which means once we get a lead in the tech race we can focus our sliders on lux and science with little gpt.

Should we concentrate on the fastest route to Communism?

MOTH
Feb 09, 2005, 03:50 PM
We will also need cash for upgrading warriors to Gallic Swordsmen. This will mainly be the case if we build a warrior factory and leave it disconnected from the iron/roadnet. I think location 7c and 7e could be used for this purpose. Depending on corruption I think each would be a 2 turn warrior factory at size 4 or 5 with a barracks and temple. We might also squeeze an ocasional worker out as well.

I think we might be able to finish the game before Communism even matters. By the time we get to communism we should have so many ICS cities that the spread around corruption will result in nearly all cities being totally corrupt. I think we want the tech pace to be as slow as possible so as to prolong the usefulness of our UU. Still, we don't want to be behind too much, but the pointy stick should help in this regard.

Durkz
Feb 09, 2005, 03:59 PM
GS in PTW costs 50 s and warrior cost 10 shields. how much 40 shields upgrade costs in gold.

Durkz
Feb 09, 2005, 04:22 PM
i tested the upgrade and we need 80 gold each (warrior to swordmen costs 40 gold). so 13 GS would cost us 1040 gold that's a lot of money in AA. maybe we should build GS directly. .

MOTH
Feb 09, 2005, 04:25 PM
As for the settlers during jb's turns. My votes are as follows:

current settler: 4h

turn 43: 4a (lets get the iron in our borders).

turn 47: 7a

After that I want to settle 4e and 4f and put on a culture push. With loads of luck the city near the cow will flip to us and we can start expanding in that direction. An alternate plan would be to declare a phoney war on whatever nation that is and eventually try to get that city (or another) in a peace deal.

jb1964
Feb 09, 2005, 06:27 PM
Team, I have a problem. I downloaded the file, unzipped it, renamed it SGOTM, and I still don't see any goats.

[EDIT: Got the goats. User error and premature panic.]

jb1964
Feb 09, 2005, 07:50 PM
Turn 0 – 2150 AD
Umm, that Mongol warrior can have our settlers for lunch should he choose.
Bought Masonry from India for 3gpt and 19g.

Turn 1 – 2110 AD
Mohacks worker to warrior
Worker to wheat
Settler to 4h (as it’s one tile away)
There are two civs we don’t know; Carthage and France.
India will sell Alpha for 4gpt and 6g. It cash straps us at the moment but we’ll be building fast so I’m going to buy.

Turn 2 - 2070 AD
Found Lugdunum – warrior
Screwed up left and right so far. Way too many distractions and too much to read through and reabsorb in the thread. Changed tech to Math after leaving it on Wheel for a turn. Never MM’ed anything in the capitol so I’m off the official schedule.

Turn 3 – 2030 AD
Forgot to turn back entertainment so there’s another screw up.

Turn 4 – 1990 AD
I'm sure I blew something on this turn as well.

Turn 5 – 1950 AD
Mongol warrior blocking founding of 4a. Will loiter for a turn.

Turn 6 – 1910 AD
Popped a hut w/ R&L and it was deserted.
Moved to 4a.

Turn 7 – 1870 AD
Entremont - settler to settler, MM for growth in 2
Lughead - warrior to warrior.
Found Camulodunum – warrior

Turn 8 – 1830 AD
Babs finished the Oracle and have started on the Pyramids.
Doubled up workers finish road to silks so peeps in capitol are happy.
Switched Mohacks to Pyramids as I now remember this was one objective mentioned. If this doesn’t work for the rest of the team turn it into a granary.

Turn 9 – 1790 AD
Workers to mine a BG below Lughead.
Other worker finishes road/irrigation of wheat and moves to road towards other wheat.

Turn 10 – 1750 AD
Found Richborough on 4f – worker
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SGOTM1750BC.jpg

rrau
Feb 09, 2005, 09:39 PM
Do we want to move the pyramids to Lugdunum? I thought Mohacs is supposed to be another settler pump. It should be switched back to granary if so. Although looking at our cities, we really don't have a good town to build the pyramids in. I just suggested Lugdunum because there are already workers in the area to improve the terrain.

Also, Rickborough needs to build a warrior before its worker.

I think Camulodum should finish the warrior, build a worker, then rax, then warriors.

What's everyone else's thoughts?

RowAndLive
Feb 09, 2005, 10:23 PM
Richborough is more of a shield city at this point, but Lugdunum is close, and is more defensible. I vote for Lugdunum. I also agree on the Richborough warrior. Haven't looked at Camulodunum enough to say yet.

Elamrae is UP.
R&L is On Deck.

Elmarae
Feb 10, 2005, 11:57 AM
Got it.... and here it is...

Preflight
Change Richborough to warrior
Change Lugdunum to Pyramids (in 197)

Tech Situation: AI's are up The Wheel, Writing, Mysticism and Mathematics. Japan, China and England don't have Mathematics though.
Buy Math from Babylon for 25g 10gpt
Sell Japan Math for Contact with French, The Wheel and 12g
Sell China Math for Contact with Cathaginians, Mysticism and 30g
Sell England Math for HBR and 30g
Buy Writing from Carthage for Math and Contact with French.

We are now at tech parity with the AI. France is down Mathmematics. (72gold and running at -4gpt to keep happy and researching)

No horses nearby that can be seen.

1725 BC
MM Entremont 5f 6s
Lugdunum grows (Pyramids in 131)

1700 BC
Entremont > Settler > Settler (MM for 5f) Send Settler to 7a
Camulodunum > Warrior > Worker
4e is in Japan's Border's, do we want to start a war?

1675 BC
MM Entremont for 5 food

1650 BC
Mohacs riots (I was sure I checked the sliders before pressing space..)
Moving Warrior to Mohacs to keep the peasants in check.

1625 BC
MM Entremont for 5 food
Richborough > Warrior > Worker

1600 BC
Found Verulamium > Warrior

1575 BC
Chinese start building Pyramids (They are next door. Lugdunum will finish in 93, do we let them build it for us?)
Japan has Map Making (won't sell it to us but I sold our WM for 56g)
Buy Philosophy for 99g 3gpt hoping to buy MM from Japan
Japan doesn't want to sell MM for Phil and 40g... oops
Entremont > Settler > Settler (MM for 5f) Send Settler to 4c

1550 BC
zzz

1525 BC
MM Entremont for 5 food

1500 BC
Richmond > Worker > Warrior
English start building Pyramids
Japan sold Mapmaking still won't sell it to us, but sold our WM for gold and TM's
Found Gergovia > Worker

Firaxis: 177

- Roster -
Durkz - On deck
MOTH -
rrau -
jb1964 -
Elmarae - Just played
RowAndLive - Up

MOTH
Feb 11, 2005, 08:08 AM
I noticed that the last 2 saves had not been uploaded, so I did uploaded them. There is a link on the first page for 'upload a save'. THis takes care of renaming it as well as providing some basic info from the save, including an estimated Jason score. I didn't think to cut and paste the Jason scores...

In case you want to add it as a favorite, the address of the page is:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm.php

These feed the data and graphs you see at this address:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php

I look at the save using CivAssist and CRpSuite and upload some comments later.

MOTH
Feb 11, 2005, 08:51 AM
Comments from looking at the save.

Research: We are currently 10 turns into a minimum science run on Construction. I would bet that an AI gets Construction before we finish our minimum run. I think Literature should be our next priority so we can start building/pop-rushing Libraries.

Pyramids: I think we should continue this for now as we don't know if an AI will beat us. We can cascade to another wonder if needed later (Great Library) and then start a campaign to capture the Pyramids.

Units: We only have 5 workers. We should have twice this number. We should maybe alternate workers and settlers from Entremont for a while.

Territory: Fill in the last ring 4 position (4g?) and then fill in towards the southwest. There appears to be lots of got room in this area that can fill with Barbs on the era change if we don't fill it quickly.

RowAndLive
Feb 11, 2005, 09:59 AM
I see it, and have noted the comments. Thanks for doing the uploads, MOTH!

I will plan on playing this one before doing any more with R&L02 due to the quickness factor, and will hope to post this one tonight.

jb1964
Feb 11, 2005, 03:04 PM
I noticed that the last 2 saves had not been uploaded, so I did uploaded them. There is a link on the first page for 'upload a save'. THis takes care of renaming it as well as providing some basic info from the save, including an estimated Jason score. I didn't think to cut and paste the Jason scores...

In case you want to add it as a favorite, the address of the page is:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm.php

These feed the data and graphs you see at this address:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php

I look at the save using CivAssist and CRpSuite and upload some comments later.

Excuse my ignorance, but we need to upload each save to this sight? This is my first SGoTM and I was unaware that you needed to upload anything other than the final save.

MOTH
Feb 11, 2005, 03:19 PM
Excuse my ignorance, but we need to upload each save to this sight? This is my first SGoTM and I was unaware that you needed to upload anything other than the final save.

Easily excused. I did the exact same thing in my first SGOTM. The upload is easier too as you can just take a regular save named the way Civ does ("So and so of the Celts 4000BC.SAV") and the upload utility renames it for you. Its also a different habit than most people use in the regular SG forum. One last thing this gives is a way for lurkers to follow our progress and download the saves to look at from a common location.

The graphs provided can give you some indication of how well your team is doing in comparison to the other teams playing PTW or Vanilla. Don't try comparing us to the C3C teams yet. The Aggricultural trait has given them a 4 turn settler pump much earlier than we got ours running. They can actually get two (or even 3 or 4) 4-turn settler pumps running using the other wheat and 2 games.

Elmarae
Feb 11, 2005, 07:40 PM
I also didn't know that we were supposed to submit them to the SGOTM site, but will do so from now on.

I hope my fumbled trading on turn 9 hasn't crippled us too much. I didn't notice that I was reseaching Construction, I typically research Pottery at full, then alphabet (min) then writing (min) then literature (min) trading with the other AI for techs.

RowAndLive
Feb 12, 2005, 08:12 PM
I hate to do this, being the nominal captain, but I'm having RL issues. Please skip me this set.

rrau
Feb 13, 2005, 10:12 AM
I believe Durkz is up.

Durkz
Feb 13, 2005, 03:19 PM
Got it (10 charac.) :)

Durkz
Feb 13, 2005, 06:11 PM
Ok here it is

1475 BC -- Worker near iron city mines bg. C finishes settler---> to 4g. workers work to improve our lands. LUX to 10 %
1450 BC -- settle august.-->Warrior
1425 BC -- entermont size 5 Lux to 20 %. change labor in C.
1400 BC -- ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ....
IBT: Paris finishes Pyramids BLAH... :( .
1375 BC -- Lungdunum to HE. Settler to 7e.
1350 BC -- Horses near mongol city of "Tabriz". Mohacs finished granary change to settler.
1325 BC -- Nothing...
1300 BC -- Looking for trade oportunitys.
IBT: mongols DOW on us i refuse because they are polite. ("Oh, why do i even bother? Your puny civilization isn't worth the effort it would take to destroy."). temuyin politely goes home.
1275 BC -- cant miss this.
Buy Consturction from france for 9 Gpt and 161 g.
Monglos: PL 18 gold and a territory map for construction.
cartage: MM & CoL for Construction 18 g and 1 gpt.
china: PL and Con. for World map. large part of black area is revealed .
Iroquis: world map for world map.
Japan: world map and 2 g for our world map.
America: WM and 39 g and 1 gpt for our WM.
England: WM and 95 g for our WM.
Babilon: WM and 38 g for our WM.
India: WM and 73 g for our WM.
France: WM and 163 gold for our WM :) .
Scandinavia: WM and 44 g for our WM.
carthage (again):WM & 27 g for our WM.
Japan: 86 g for WM.
Iroquis: 37 g for WM.
Babilon: 18 g for WM
Monglos: 40 g for our WM

For 8 gpt we got Construction, MM, PL, and CoL + we got 501 gold and our continent is allmost full revealed.
we now have 662 gold and i set reaserch to literature on 20% (we need to get it fast as a bargening chip because all the other civs will now go for currency they Allways neglect LIT )
1250 BC -- advisor pops up and warns me about masive barb uprising and tels me that almost all civs are building GL (forget the sentence above). Buy Currency from france for 381 g and WM ( we enter MA in 1250 :) ). trade Cu for Lit with india (i made a mistake i shuld have traded it with england they had 98 g :( ). babilon got Feudalisam as a free tech (no other sientific civ in the game)

Firaxis p. 229

The SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/RowAndLive_SG006_BC1250_01.SAV)

world map
http://img59.exs.cx/img59/5716/untitled29ww.jpg
http://img229.exs.cx/img229/3302/picture1cl.jpg
http://img229.exs.cx/img229/7062/blah9uq.jpg
http://img59.exs.cx/img59/4270/shuby5zs.gif

Durkz
Feb 13, 2005, 06:16 PM
Durkz - just played
MOTH - UP
rrau - On deck
jb1964 -
Elmarae -
RowAndLive -

rrau
Feb 13, 2005, 09:05 PM
Darn, it looks like the pyramids are at the other end of the world. :( I'm not liking the brief view I'm having of the map - haven't opened the game yet.

Great job on the trading rounds.

Elmarae
Feb 14, 2005, 07:23 AM
France isn't that far from us, we just need to go around the Chinese border then north west and we will reach France, though we would need galleys.

Perhaps starting up some embassies and getting wars going would slow down the AI's growth. It looks like China might be sending those warriors to fight the barbarians south of Lugdunum or they could be moving to sneak attack us.

I noticed that if we MM Mohacs we can get growth in 1 turn by taking a bgrass from the neighbouring city.

Comparing our score against Team Peanut (the only other PTW team) we are doing well, our curve is even matching Team Bede (C3C) though offset most likely because of the AGR trait. :goodjob:

MOTH
Feb 14, 2005, 08:31 AM
If rrau has time to play today or tomorrow then I could take a swap...

If not, then "I've got it". In the unlikely case that the baby cooperates by taking a nap when I pick him up from day care I will play this afternoon. If not then tonight I am spending surplus time with wifey for Valentine's day, in which case I will try and play on the 15th (but that is dicey as well).

It does look like France is half the world away. China is on a penisula, so we would have to go by boat to get there quickly. I would say the most we can spare for a long distance venture would be 2 or 3 galleys loaded with GS. We will have to follow it up with a Palace jump and this will really get us rolling fast.

I think that we should spend a lot of money on embassies at this point. There is a decent chance that the barbs could get past our weak defenses and wipe out our cash anyway.

Can we build the FP yet? If we can then I think that we should switch Lugdug to FP in preparation to jumping the palace to Paris.

Plans for my turns:
Check infrastructure. Check for defense against barbs. Get road to iron built. Upgrade warriors to GS.

MOTH
Feb 14, 2005, 10:00 AM
Just a quick comment. We appear to be doing nicely when looking at the submission graphs. We are right at the top of the 5 teams playing either PTW or 1.29 and our graph angle is comparable to the teams playing C3C, if a bit behind.

We need to make sure that we start building culture in each new city that we build and we we need to continue the infrastructure in our core. I will review during my turnsets and present a continuing plan for culture improvements. I'm hoping that someone a little more bloodthirsty than me can do the same for a war mongering plan to obtain territory.

Durkz
Feb 14, 2005, 08:29 PM
hey MOTH happy birthday :bday: :bday: [party] [party]

i will do warmongering plans tomorow im too sleepy now :dubious: :twitch:

MOTH
Feb 14, 2005, 11:18 PM
Thanks for the b-day greetings. Its not quite my b-day here yet.. But by the time I finish the post it will be...

Pre-flight: MM Mohacs for growth in 1. Activate the 1 warrior in Entremont for barb defense. Switch archers to barracks - we need veteran troops. We want science to stay slow for now, so I keep science at 10% on Monotheism.

IBT - Everyone is building the Great Library. Still no sign of the barb horsemen. Perhaps they all died attacking the Chinese?

1225(1) - Lux to 20%. Change MM around to get a couple barracks in 1 at the expense of 1 food.

IBT - 5 barb horsemen show up next to Chinese warrior. Richborough and Augustodurm barracks>warrior.

1200(2) - More MM. I keep Verulamium building a barracks. Spend some of our money building Embassies.

Results of Embassies:
Mongols - 41G - Karakorum - size 1, 2 reg spears. Building reg spear. 1 lux.
China - 36G - Beijing - size 1, 1 reg spear. Building reg spear. 2 lux.
Vikings - 129G - Nidaros - size 7, 2 reg spears. Building GLH in 17. 0 lux. 2 clowns. 11 spt. Heroic Epoc and Collossus built.

IBT - 4 Barb horses die and 5th redlines killing 1 Chinese warrior. 1 more horse shows up threatening a worker. Entremont - Settler>Settler; Mohacs Settler>Worker; Camulodunum Barracks>warrior;

1175(3) - More MM. With both settlers built I can set lux back to 0%. Build Eboracum. Cross mongol territory with Archer. Move threatened worker.

IBT - China kills redlined horse. Apologize to Mongols for territory violation. 7 more barb horses show up killing the Chinese warrior. 2 more near RowAndLive. We can build Forbidden Palace.

1150(4) - Lux back to 10%. Archer back out of Mongol territory. Switch Lugdug to FP.

IBT - Loads of barb horses. 3 die. One does 2 damage to R&L. Mohacs Worker>Worker. Rich an August Vet Warrior>warrior.
12 Barb horses can now be seen - 2 next to Verulium and 2 next to R&L.

1125(5) - MM again. R&L fortifies and hopes that the Chinese kill the barb horses.

IBT - China kills 4 horses. Verulamium - Barracks>Warrior. Babylonians are building SunTzu's. Babylonians build the Great Wall. Some cascades to Great Library builds.

1100(6) - Build Burdigala near China - start on temple to pop-rush in 10 turns. Shift a warrior to cover Burdigala and its cheapest to use a scientist with science on 0%. R&L kills a barb horse.

IBT - China kills 1 horse and loses a warrior. Entremont - Settler>Settker. Mohacs Worker>Library. Camuldunum Warrior>Warrior.

1075(7) - More MM. Build Cataract start on temple to bring in Dyes. Science to 10% and lux to 20%.
Mongols have a Worker for sale, so start selling Currency:
Mongols give Worker, 35G, WM. England gives 92G, WM. Carthage gives 33G, WM.

IBT - China loses a warrior. Rich and August - Warrior>Warrior.

1050(8) China killed the barb hut near us, so we trade Currency for the WM and 25G. Trade WM to pick up about 15G more. Lux back to 10% as I have MP in lugdug. Forgot to put science back to 10% so do it now.

IBT - A couple more horses die.

1025(9) - More MM. We kill a horse with one of our reg warriors. Switch Verulamium to a temple. Will pop-rush it next turn.

IBT - England Demands Territory Map and 42G. They are halfway around the world, so no way! They Declare War on us! Yeah for the Negative War Weariness! Camulodunum warrior>warrior.

1000(10) - Can drop lux back to 0% due to negative WW even with Entremont at size 5 and Verulamium being whipped.

The settler is heading for the spot 1 to the SW which is a hill on RCP 7 - there is already a warruior on the hill. There are 2 more RCP 7 locations in the South.

I have been alternating the Wheat in the North between Camul and Mohacs so that we wouldn't need too much lux to quickly for Mohacs. I have also been switching the use of mined bgs in August and Rich so that I get 10 shields from each every 3 turns. We will soon have an Irrigated game there too to switch arround for ocasional quicker growth.

Burdigala should pop-rush the temple in 6 turns so that we have some culture pushing towards China.

In the north I'm trying to get irrigation to the cities of Eboracum and Agedicum so that they can grow enough to become warrior factories once the iron is hooked up (7 turns for that).

Inventory: 524g with 30gpt, 2 Granary, 4 barracks, 1 Settler, 10 Workers, 1 Slave, 14 warriors (7 vet), 1 archer

There are 2 important things coming up: Both China and Mongols UU's are based on Knights. We need to be ready to upgrade the warriors to GS and blitz first China and then Mongols. China has horses, so we should try and disconnect early on.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/RowAndLive_SG006_BC1000_01.SAV

Firaxis score: 285
Jason score: 97

mad-bax
Feb 15, 2005, 01:21 AM
The Mongol UU has been changed for PTW/Vanilla because it is not possible to give the same movement to the unit in vanilla as it has in PTW. The Mongol UU has exactly the same stats as your own UU - the Gallic swordsman, but it also has zone of control, and requires horses and HBR. FWIW that is why I placed them next to you on the map. :)

MOTH
Feb 15, 2005, 07:04 AM
Thanks M-B, I had forgotten that. I'll also :bump: this to page 5 and coment more on strategy since its no longer the middle of the night.

MOTH
Feb 15, 2005, 08:43 AM
Comments and overall situtional update (my questions are bolded)

City Names: Does anyone have any objections to shortening all of the names? Its a pain for someone as lazy as I am to keep typing all of these long names.

Happiness: We currently have 1 luxury and have some war happiness from England. Important: Don't accept peace with England unless they will give us a city or 2. We can also hook up the Dyes in the South soon. If we can get anyone else long-distance to declare on us then all the more war happiness.

War: With M-B's statement and the Mongol's lack of horses, I think that after (or even during) the war on China we need to go after Japan before they get their Knight based UU. After these 2 wars we might be able to go after France. Should we open an Embassy with France and get them to go to war with England in the meantime? The tactics for war I leave to those more skilled in early conquest.

Food: I have been MM sharing the bonus food except for Entremont's. I try to make sure that when a town is 4 food away from growth that they get a wheat so that the governor will auto-work a shield tile. This will be more complicated with the Game (irrigated in about 3) in the south as 3 cities share this bonus.

Military Units: We have 3 cities with MM that are each building 1 Vet Warrior every 3 turns. Verulamium will start building a 4th every 4 or 5 turns. I think we will have 9 or 10 more before the Iron is hooked up and we have to switch to GS. One of the 2 disconnected towns in the north will soon start building one every 5 turns. Once some irrigation gets up there they might be able to pick up the pace some. This should give us 15+ GS to start the conquest of China.

Settlers: I have been building settlers from only Entremont lately.
Workers: I built a few workers from Mohacs before I started on the Library

Harbor: 1 harbor is being built. We do not want harbors in the warrior factory cities at this point as that will ship in the Iron.
Barracks: We have 4 barracks now and will soon have 2 more.
Library: We have 1 in the works in Mohacs. We should get Libraries in our core (except Entremont) when production allows.
Temples: We have 3 in the works. We should build temples as they are cheap and will provide some happiness to combat the whipping. Once we start building corrupt ICS cities they should start immediately on a temple and should pop-rush it if they grow in ten turns.

Palace Jump: We don't want any of our existing cities to grow too large before we jump the Palace as population is a big part of the formula.

Existing Cities:
Entremont - settler pump
Rich, August, Verul, Camul - military pumps. They should breifly detour to a temple or Library once Iron is hooked up and they can't build warriors anymore.
Gergovia - Harbor, then galleys with possible pop-rush detour to temple to expand borders.
Mohacs - Library then worker then temple then worker then cathedral. We don't want to grow much though.
Lugdun - FP then worker then Library then some workers to bring size back down.
Ebor and Aged - long term warrior pumps. They get a barracks, and eventually a temple via pop-rush to expand borders.
Cataract and Burdigala - getting temples now for border expansion. Then what?

New cities: There are 3 RCP 7 sites (one next to our settler) that will have rank 1 corruption once the FP finishes. There are also 2 more RCP 7 sites near China. After this it is to start following ICS placement. Lots of the ICS sites in the south are going to be fishing villages, so maybe a harbor after the temple.

On the following map C1 through C5 are the RCP7 sites. The settler is next to C1. ICS are the ICS sites. PPS are the ICS sites that we should settle Post Palace jump.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sgotm6ralcity.JPG

RowAndLive
Feb 15, 2005, 09:04 AM
Still no sign of the barb horsemen. Perhaps they all died attacking the Chinese?

5 barb horsemen show up next to Chinese warrior
1 more horse shows up threatening a worker.
7 more barb horses show up killing the Chinese warrior. 2 more near RowAndLive.
Loads of barb horses. 3 die. One does 2 damage to R&L.
12 Barb horses can now be seen - 2 next to Verulium and 2 next to R&L.


Well, when you ask a silly question...

Nicely played out. I did miss something here, though. Palace jump? What palace jump? I'd like to see a good case before we do this, as I'm generally not a fan (although I do concede that it is likely necessary in SGoTM in order to score well, as evidenced by SGoTM5 & ROP Rape).

MOTH
Feb 15, 2005, 10:15 AM
Well, when you ask a silly question...

Nicely played out. I did miss something here, though. Palace jump? What palace jump? I'd like to see a good case before we do this, as I'm generally not a fan (although I do concede that it is likely necessary in SGoTM in order to score well, as evidenced by SGoTM5 & ROP Rape).

The barb horsemen had me nervous. They did major damage to our team in SGOTM5. In this game they never even attacked our cities. Mainly this was because they and the Chinese were going at it. Still, I was hoping for a few unit promotions.

You didn't miss anything. I agree that it should be fully discussed before we execute a jump. With the restrictions on leaders rushing, a Palace Jump is the only realistic way for us to get a second core running. I've never done one myself, as I always use a leader when I play in GOTM. In a 100K game, moving the palace several times is also important as you can then quickly develop each area with cultural improvements and then move to the next core.

We will soon have the FP in our existing core, so there is nothing to stop us from jumping our Palace to China's capitol once we capture it and building up that area.

jb1964
Feb 15, 2005, 10:52 AM
Is a palace jump permitted? I thought this was outside the rules.

I've only ever executed a jump once in a solo game and it worked like a charm. After a horrible starting location I found the territory I wanted (Rome) and hopped on over.

What are our risks with England enlisting the Chinese or Mongols at a date sooner than our choosing? When does an AI decide to initiate a dog-pile?

rrau's up next.

I'm on deck.

MOTH
Feb 15, 2005, 11:07 AM
Is a palace jump permitted? I thought this was outside the rules.

I've only ever executed a jump once in a solo game and it worked like a charm. After a horrible starting location I found the territory I wanted (Rome) and hopped on over.

What are our risks with England enlisting the Chinese or Mongols at a date sooner than our choosing? When does an AI decide to initiate a dog-pile?

rrau's up next.

I'm on deck.

Palace jump is definately permitted. As we are playing GOTM rules, what is not permitted is exploiting the Palace Rank bug by building/jumping the Palace far away and never building a second core arround it.

I think the risk of dogpile this early is pretty small. England doesn't have much cash to even establish embassies (no one has much except for FRance and us.) One way to try and prevent it at this stage is to keep England cash poor so they can't establish embassies in the first place. Another way is to turn it around on them first. We've got lots of cash, so we could try to bring France or America in on a MA against them.

Elmarae
Feb 15, 2005, 11:21 AM
Roster
Durkz
MOTH -Just played
rrau - Up
jb1964 - On deck
Elmarae
RowAndLive

I have no complaints about renaming the cities, there are a few possibilities.

We could name them according to ring, purpose. For example, Lugdunum would become (FP-0) - Mil1. That means it's 0 from the FP and is Military build #1. A city 4 squares from the FP that is earmarked to build military would be (FP-4) - Mil# In turn logs we would then only have to refer to them as Mil5 > GS > GS.

The Categories would be Mil - Military, Set - Settler Farm, Wor - Worker Farm, War - Warrior Farm

The ICS cities could be called ICS 1, ICS 2 ICS 3. This would also mean that they would sort appropriately in the F1 screen.

Though it does make the map look rather sterile with names. We could change it so that the original name is included. Like thus. (FP-0) Mil (Lugdunum) or a shortened version of the original name (FP-0) Mil (Lugd)

The only problem is when we move the palace (reasoning for this eludes me, because when we move the palace the area were the palace was would become corrupt) we would have to rename all the cities currently named (P-#) to ICS or some such. Or we could name the cities with regards of which palace jump it is. So the first palace jump the city with the palace would be (P1-0) and the cities around it would be (P1-#). Then when we jump the palace it would become (P2-0) and the surrounding cities (P2-#) With the # being the distance from the palace.

Another thing we can do with the renaming is just sorten the names to 3-4 letters. Lugdunum becomes Lugd.

Durkz
Feb 15, 2005, 11:27 AM
World war:

o we need to start a world war now. it will slow down tech race very much. it will also criple the ai expansion and infrastructure
o you are right we should start a war between ENG and FRA they are almost even in size and in power and they both have iron.
o we should sign aliance with india, iroquis (india has iron and iroquis have it in territory but it isnt connected) and carthage agains the japs because they look strong and if we don't do this they will get chivlary very fast and they have 2 sources of iron.
o and we should sign aliance with scandinavia and america against babs
o mongols are weak now and will be weak in the future because they have a bad start ( mostly tundra, mountains and hills)

Galic swordmen:

o we need 800 gold for 10 gs so we should upgrade only the veteran warriors. and we shuld buld some Gs in our most productive towns.
o veteran GL against Fortified sperman ,on a grassland, will win 68 % of time 16 % of fights he will lose and 16 % of time he will retreat. these are good stats. on 10 spears we will lose only 1 or 2 GS. (unles the evil RNG strikes). so on china we who probably has 20 spears we will lose 3 or 4 (maybe more if they attack us with archers) GS in attack. and many will promote to Elite.
o after china we should go for japan they will be worn out in a war against india, iroquis and chartage and their forces will be on the other end of the empire when we attack.

Note:

o If we turn 1 citizen in to scientist and set the science slider to 0% we will monoteism will be in 31 turns and we will get 33 gpt instead of 30 right now.

Palace jump:

o I dont like palace jumps but here it might be useful
o if we jump the palace we shud jump it in kyoto. that is because they have the best land of all civs (exept babs) pefect for a good core. we should do this right after we conquer them. this will give us BIG boost in production, reaserach and gold early on.

http://img174.exs.cx/img174/706/china8bn.jpg
http://img160.exs.cx/img160/613/untitled19wi.jpg

RowAndLive
Feb 15, 2005, 11:41 AM
Thanks for the analyses, both of you. Let's give this a little thought before jumping on it.

MOTH
Feb 15, 2005, 11:57 AM
@rrau,
I defer all war tactics to the other members of the team. I'm nervous enough just attacking the barbarians. It looks like during your turn set we will mainly be getting lined up for the attack on China and the actual attack will occur during jb's and Elmarae's turnsets.

I did forgot to mention our lone archer. He is working his way to the unknown tiles North of where he is now. If you want to play a little havoc, you can pillage a road in nuetral territory and place a couple of Cathage's cities in greater corruption.

MOTH
Feb 15, 2005, 12:11 PM
The only problem is when we move the palace (reasoning for this eludes me, because when we move the palace the area were the palace was would become corrupt)
..snip...

For naming schemes, I'm happy with just shortened names. In my own GOTMs I've started naming everything with a 3 digit number (001, 002, etc) and I keep the original names at the end for captured cities. This works great for the city list, but doesn't tell you where the city is located.

As for Palace corruption,
I assume you are talking about a 2nd, 3rd, etc jump. The first makes sense because we are leaving behind the FP, so corruption might even decrease.

For the subsequent jumps, this is primarily a benefit when doing 100K as it allows you to quickly build the culture improvements in each area. We would jump again after the new cores have built reasonable cultural improvements (Temple, Library, and Cathedral at least). Yes, we do leave behind a corrupt region, but it will be building plenty of culture.

There is the other way (the only way I've done it up to now), is to keep your 2 highly productive cores and build them up on everything to boost production. You then produce as many quick units as best match your production capacity. These units are then shipped to the borders to be disbanded for shields. Disband a 100shield unit (for 25 shields) and speand 5 turns at 1 spt and you've got a temple.

MOTH
Feb 15, 2005, 12:14 PM
One more thing on a second palace jump, once we've taken out our southern neighbors, it could be helpful to jumo the Palace to the north so that we can take advantage of the "gift a city - teleport to capitol" ploy to quickly move large number of units to the battlefront.

Elmarae
Feb 15, 2005, 03:57 PM
I think the gift a city to move troops is disallowed in SGOTM's... even so I would be wary of doing it.

Durkz
Feb 15, 2005, 04:54 PM
this is how we stand against other team we are competing with (ptw & vanilla)
http://img121.exs.cx/img121/4779/sgotm6pz.jpg[/URL]

rrau
Feb 15, 2005, 06:09 PM
ok got it, will try to get to it tonight or it might be tomorrow.

rrau
Feb 15, 2005, 09:50 PM
preflight (1000bc)

1000 bc stats:

12 cites
26 pop
1 slave
10 workers
1 settler
14 warriors
1 archer
2 granaries
4 rax
no culture buildings except palace

techs: researching Monotheism. Don't know either republic or monarchy (no reason to in this game)

:mad: while trying to click the E button to see if we had an embassy in France, it wasn't on center and was just off to the left and the stupid game interpreted it as a click on the round oval and moved to the next turn (I don't know why as the "E" button is nowhere near the oval, but it often happens to me)

turn 1 (975bc)

Establish embassy with France for 118g (ouch). They are 16 turns from great library and only have 2 spears in Paris.
Establish embassy with Iroquois for 43g. They are 10 turns from great library.
Establish Embassy with Carthage for 53g. They are 26 turns from great library.
Establish Embassy with India for 23g. They are 23 turns from great library.
We can only afford 1 MA. I think it's more important to slow Japan down.
DoW Japan.
MA with Carthage vs Japan for 24gpt. We have 299 in the bank for a few upgrades.
Can't afford to hire a scientist anywhere right now

ibt: Get a 2nd story for our palace

turn 2 (950bc)

settle Lapurdum => temple

ibt: India and England signed MA vs America.

turn 3 (925bc)

lux to 10%

ibt: R&L survives attack by 2 barb horses and becomes elite :D

turn 4 (900bc)

I messed up the Settler factory and didn't get a settler.

turn 5 (875bc)

Ratae Coritanorum founded => temple

turn 6 (850bc)

not much

ibt:

iron is hooked up
FP completes => worker
Cataractonium temple => reg galley (vetoable but I thought I'd start building them for the eventual transportation of troops to Japan

turn 7 (825bc)

not much

ibt:

Carthage and India signed MA against America.
Gerovia harbor => galley
Eboracum warrior => warrior
Japan is building SunTzu's

turn 8 (800bc)

China has Feudalism, but no Iron
upgrade 4 vet warriors to GS (all we can afford right now)
Remembered to MM the settler factory this time

ibt:

Babylon and Carthage signed MA vs America
Mohacs library => settler
Lugdunum worker => library
Agedincum rax => warrior
Vikings build Great Lighthouse

turn 9 (775bc)

Agedincum would riot, so hire scientist and decrease research for 1 turn (will starve on the ibt - can't get MP there in time as it's one of the unroaded warrior factory towns)
Aggressively settle Tolosa near Xinjian => temple

ibt:

Richborough temple => worker
Verulamium warrior => library (has a forest chop due in city radius in 5)
France, Carthage, & China are building SunTzu's
Agedincum starved :(

turn 10 (750bc)

Started a forest chop in Mohacs. After the settler completes, would recommend building either a temple or a market
Hired a scientist in Gergovia (building galleys) and kept science at 0%

Once Mohacs builds it's settler, I think lux should be able to go back to 0%.
Mohacs currently MM'd for no growth or it would get to size 7 before the settler is built.
I have a worker building a road toward the dye near Cataractonium. The border should expand soon to get the dyes.

Firaxis 351
Jason 119


>>>THE SAVE<<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/RowAndLive_SG006_BC0750_01.SAV)


screenies when embassies were established:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sgotm6R&Lcarthage.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sgotm6R&Lfrench.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sgotm6R&Lindia.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sgotm6R&Liroquois.jpg

Elmarae
Feb 16, 2005, 01:00 AM
If we are going to Palace jump then we should focus on setting up the core around the FP city not the current palace. Possibly even go as far as ICS around the FP and RCP 4,8 around the new palace position. That would give us a lot of small low corruption cites around the FP.

I would prefer though making 2 cores that a high production, they could then provide the workers for pop rushing the culture buildings in other cities. How much is a citizen worth for pop rushing? 20 shields?

Durkz
Feb 16, 2005, 06:07 AM
grat job rrau we started the initial spark and wars are opening on all fronts

Durkz
Feb 16, 2005, 06:08 AM
Durkz
MOTH -
rrau - just played
jb1964 - UP
Elmarae - on deck
RowAndLive

jb1964
Feb 16, 2005, 08:08 AM
Anyone care to post the exact dance steps needed to keep the four turn settler factory going? My first set of turns I didn't get this correct and subsequent investigation only has me sctratching my head. There's obviously a twist I'm missing on how to get the sheilds and the bread rolling at the same time.

A beer (upon proof of legal age) to the first soul that clues me in.

MOTH
Feb 16, 2005, 08:23 AM
The only real key to the settler factory is that you have to Micromanage for +5 food whenever the city grows (turn 1 and 3). If we had gotten lucky with a 3rd bg we would only have to MM on turn 1.

The 4 turns are as follows:
Turn 1: Size 4: Governor will default working Wheat, two mined bonus grass, and a forest. You will need to change the forest to the Mined Game. This will give you +5 food and 6 shields. It will say settler in 5 turns, but that's ok as growth will take care of this.

Turn 2: Size 4: No Micromanagement changes needed. +5 food, 6 shields and 2 sheilds on growth by working a forest for 14 sheilds total.

Turn 3: Size 5: Governor will default working Wheat, Mined Game, two mined bonus grass, and a forest. You will need to change the forest to the Mined Grassland (or irrigated plains works). This will give you +5 food and 7 shields for 21 sheilds total. It will say settler in 3 turns, but that's ok as growth will take care of this.

Turn 4: Size 5: No Micromanagement changes needed. +5 food, 7 shields and 2 sheilds on growth by working a forest for 30 sheilds total.

Thanks for the beer offer, but I must pass. Beer and wine play havoc with my allergies. I must stick to vodka, rum, and tequila.

Elmarae
Feb 16, 2005, 08:34 AM
On the 2 turns of growth, you need to MM Entremont to get 5 food and the most shields you can.

Turn 1: At size 4 you want 5 fpt and 6 spt (Growth in 2 turns giving you 12 shields towards the settler)

Turn 2: The city grows to size 5 the citizen on placed on the forest (giving 2 shields towards the settler for a total of 14 shields).
You move the citizen from the forest to a grassland square to get 2f and 1s.

Turn 3: At size 5 you want 5 fpt and 7 spt (Growth in 2 turns giving you 14 shields towards the settler for a total of 28)

Turn 4: The city grows to size 6 the citizen on placed on the forest (giving 2 shields towards the settler for a total of 30 shields. Settler is built and pop reduced to 4.)You move the citizen from the forest to a grassland square to get 2f and 1s.

That's the basics of a 4 turn settler factory with a granary

A settler costs 30 shields and a city grows with 10 food in the granary.

So it only requires that you MM at growth to make sure that it is producing the right amount of food and shields.

RowAndLive
Feb 16, 2005, 11:33 AM
ibt: R&L survives attack by 2 barb horses and becomes elite :D

I've been called many things before, but 'elite' isn't one of them... :)


France, Carthage, & China are building SunTzu's


Guessing from this that the Iro's pulled the GLib. Other than Sun's, what are the closest cascades?

Nice job on the turn set. And thanks to MOTH and Elmarae for the settler fcty info. I needed it too.

Lastly, it'd be nice to get the HE somewhere along in here too.

MOTH
Feb 16, 2005, 12:16 PM
As far as built wonders in this game:
Babylon: Oracle and Great Wall
France: Pyramids
Vikings: Colossus, Great Lighthouse

I think there is a decent chance that the Cascade will die once the Great Library has been built.

Outstanding: Great Library, Sun Tzu's, Hanging Gardens (no one has Monarchy yet).

The only Gotta Have wonders for a 100K win that are coming up are the Science Wonders. Of couse any of the high culture wonders (including HE) are good to have if we can spare a city for the production of one.

There are a few countries with lower culture than us now. China is one of these, so we shoudn't have to worry too much about cities flipping back to them once we set loose the dogs on them.

In the graph of PTW/1.29 teams we are doing well as far as score goes. It is possible that many of the teams have sacrifice growth for early culture, so we need to keep pushing our growth and start building more culture.

jb1964
Feb 16, 2005, 12:24 PM
A fine explanation. I wont going into just how far off the mark I was because it's rather sad.

Anyway, I will be playing this evening.

Elmarae
Feb 16, 2005, 03:13 PM
The big difference between MOTH and my explaination is the perspective. MOTH's is more correct in the sense it is from the viewpoint of the beginning of the turn, whereas mine are from the viewpoint of ibt.

The points to remember are:

To move the citizen from the forest to a mined grassland on growth.

At size 4 you want 5 extra food and 6 shields.

At size 5 you want 5 extra food and 7 shields.

Follow those and you will have a 4 turn settler factory.

[Edit: This comment was meant for R&L02 which I am also in with jb. Second time I've done that, replied to one SG on a different SG. Did I mention I was blonde?]
@jb I promise to leave you a settler or two to hunt down... :hammer: assuming Bede leaves me anything. :mischief:

MOTH
Feb 16, 2005, 03:55 PM
5 extra food is always the answer for a 4 turn settler pump. If you don't have as many bonus grass then you might need to start at size 5 instead of 6. Getting settler pumps running has been the largest improvement to my early games that I've seen.

If you a start have a cow, wheat, and 4 bonus grass you can run a 4 turn combo pump building a warrior and a settler every 4 turns. Those are sweet.

I see that durkz and I are the odd men out with the rest of you playing in R&L02. Looks like you've had a fun run of it. jb should just take on China during his turnset, ready or not!

Mistfit
Feb 16, 2005, 04:18 PM
It's nice to see that you guys put this team together. It looks as if you are off to an auspicious start. Keep up the great discussion! I'm really enjoying the read :goodjob:


@jb ~ Another attempt at getting you to change to a "Mistfitized Avatar":

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/saluki1.gif http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/saluki2.gif

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/saluki1.gif
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/saluki2.gif
btw the name of the file is a little joke :D

MOTH
Feb 16, 2005, 04:25 PM
It's nice to see that you guys put this team together. It looks as if you are off to an auspicious start. Keep up the great discussion! I'm really enjoying the read :goodjob:


@jb ~ Another attempt at getting you to change to a "Mistfitized Avatar":



http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/saluki1.gif
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/saluki2.gif
btw the name of the file is a little joke :D

I'm always amazed at how well people can do with graphics programs. I've been thinking of getting a custom avatar in time for my 1000th post. It would have to be a true "rare moth" - that is a Monarch butterfly. I'll come visiting the avatar help thread with a few pictures I've taken of different butterflys closer to hitting 1000 posts.

jb1964
Feb 17, 2005, 12:28 PM
It's nice to see that you guys put this team together. It looks as if you are off to an auspicious start. Keep up the great discussion! I'm really enjoying the read :goodjob:


@jb ~ Another attempt at getting you to change to a "Mistfitized Avatar":


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/saluki1.gif
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/saluki2.gif
btw the name of the file is a little joke :D

SALUKI!?!

:) I like the first one better. Thanks.

Mistfit
Feb 17, 2005, 12:39 PM
SALUKI!?!
Sorry - inside joke. One of my friends went to Illinois and I kept telling everyone that he was a Saluki (Southern Illinois University)instead of a Illini. It bugged him greatly. Anyway I'm glad you liked it.

jb1964
Feb 17, 2005, 01:54 PM
Sorry - inside joke. One of my friends went to Illinois and I kept telling everyone that he was a Saluki (Southern Illinois University)instead of a Illini. It bugged him greatly. Anyway I'm glad you liked it.

I'm familiar w/ SIU and Yes! It bugged me greatly as well. :) Well done.

Notice new Avatar w/ crisper lines and colors. Much thanks.

jb1964
Feb 17, 2005, 08:08 PM
Turn 0 – 750 BC
We’re down Feud to 6 civ’s leaving 5 others in the same boat as us.
Food at 6 w/ 6s

IBT:
India and England has signed a MA against us.
Mongols and Babs sign against the Americans.
Japan lands a settler/spear pair.
Iroquois finish the GL
Archer takes out a BH. Save

Turn 1 – 730 AD
Moving settler to 7-ring.
Food at 5 w/ 6s.
We have a nice mix of units, culture, and growth.
What to do about the Japanese settler/spear? Kill the spear and take the workers or let ‘em settle and take the city. Either way we’re looking at triggering the GA.


Comments?

rrau
Feb 17, 2005, 08:16 PM
We were going to trigger anyway in a few more turns when we took on China, so I say go for it.

Remember not to get Feudalism yet or we won't be able to keep building our UU.

[edit] I'd prefer the free workers.

MOTH
Feb 17, 2005, 08:26 PM
I'd go with the free workers. If the city is founded then it will auto-raze.

jb1964
Feb 17, 2005, 09:35 PM
Turn 0 – 750 BC
We’re down Feud to 6 civ’s leaving 5 others in the same boat as us.
Entremont 5f/6s

IBT:
India and England has signed a MA against us.
Mongols and Babs sign against the Americans.
Japan lands a settler/spear pair.
Iroquois finish the GL
Archer takes out a BH. Save

Turn 1 – 730 AD
Moving settler to 7-ring.
Entremont 5f/6s
We have a nice mix of units, culture, and growth.
What to do about the Japanese settler/spear? Kill the spear and take the workers or let ‘em settle and take the city. Either way we’re looking at triggering the GA.

IBT:
Barb steps up to greet the new Japanese city. They settled right where they stepped off the boat.

Turn 2 – 710 AD
5f/7s – had to take the mined grass away from another city.
Attacked w/ archer and he promotes.

IBT:
Babylon has joined in on the war against us.
Carthage and Japan make nice.
Barb attacks Japanese spear and gets it a promotion to veteran.


Turn 3 – 690 AD
Laperdum riots.
New settler, Mohacs, heading for c4.

IBT:
BH’s killed our archer.

Turn 4 – 670 AD
Entertainment down to 0%
Entremont pops a settler and MM for 5f/6sl
25g from barb camp.

IBT:
Nothing.

Turn 5 – 650 AD
Upgraded a warrior.

Turn 6 – 630 AD

Turn 7 – 610 AD
The game bombed on me…
Wasn’t keeping track of the turns so I reloaded 630 and found that I was already at 610.

Turn 8 – 590 AD
Japan is sending another galley over and we now have two GW’s to deal a death blow to the Japanese city. Well, the city has grown to size 2 and we are now in our GA.
Dyes are hooked up.

IBT: Scandinavia has joined in against us. OK, this is turning into the dogpile I didn't thank was going to happen.

Turn 9 – 570 AD
Moving troops and building.

IBT: Galley sunk

Turn 10 – 550 AD
I managed to build a few regular GS’s.

The GA has changed the equation on all our builds.

Your team: RowAndLive
Firaxis score: 427
Jason score: 145

Elmarae
Feb 18, 2005, 02:35 AM
Got it... my 3 other SGs have also come to my turn and 3 of them are in war situations. I think I am going to get my war fix.

MOTH
Feb 18, 2005, 07:52 AM
Should be fun. THe negative WW from 4 Civs who declared war on us has got to be helping with the happiness. If we decide to make peace with any of them then make sure to check happiness levels afterwards.

We now have 16 warriors and 12 GS and with the GA we have lots of cash coming in for upgrades. Time to wipe out the Chinese I think.

jb1964
Feb 18, 2005, 12:40 PM
With four civs after us and a soon to be declared war w/ China we need to be wary of our defense. A galley w/ a couple of decent UU's dropped in our backyard could make for a bad couple of decades.

I don't know that any of our opponents, at the moment, have an AA UU but after Chivalry a few knights, or Samurai, would be bad.

We can keep warriors for cheap MP's but should hold some GS's in positions to cover landings.

Rather than building the regular GS's I should have churned out a few workers as we're a bit light in that category given our rapid growth in our city count.

Durkz
Feb 18, 2005, 02:50 PM
india will talk peace for under 40 g i say go for it because they can sign more aliances against us.
Good news is that japs are republic and when we attack them threre will be a lot of ww. Maybe we shuld go for japan right away instead of china bacause china has NO iron for their Rider and japan has 3 iron, and horses are not needed for samuray.

If japs get chivlary we are in trouble. that is because they will use Samurays as ofensive and defensive unit. vet GS has 35% to win against reg samuray. so on 20 fights we will kill only 7 samuray and lose 13 GS. we have 2 options here
1. go for china and then attack mongols and leave japs for later
2. go for japs NOW then china. we just need rugly 3 galleys to transport our GS.
If we go for japs now they will defend with a mix of spears and pikes but mostly spears and there should be some horses and swords in counter attack but both of that units are not match to our GS . So im voting JAPAN NOW CHINA LATER.

and JB i think that your turns were in BC insteado of AD :p

MOTH
Feb 18, 2005, 03:23 PM
Seems like good thinking to me. It also lets us even out our RCP4 and 7 and prepare to ICS the lands on the other side of the channel.

MOTH
Feb 18, 2005, 04:25 PM
I also think we only need 2 galleys. Stationed at Richborough they can transport 4 units each the first turn and 6 each on subsequent turns. With differential naval movment coast is 3 mp and cities are 1mp. So:
1st trun: Move(3)-unload-Move back to Rich(4)-load-move(7)-unload then units move to load onto the empty boats.
2nd turn: unload-Move back to Rich(1)-load-move(4)-unload-Move back to Rich(5)-load-move(8)-unload then units move to load onto the empty boats.

RowAndLive
Feb 18, 2005, 07:10 PM
I agree with Japan first and China later.

Elmarae
Feb 19, 2005, 07:38 AM
Preflight

Trades:
Buy 3 Workers from America for WM 143g and 13gpt
Buy 1 worker from Mongol for WM and 7gpt
Put the slaves to work.

530 BC
Eboracum > warrior > warrior
Lapurdum > Temple > Barracks

510 BC
Entremont > Settler > Settler
Mohacs > Settler > Barracks
Lugdunum > Barracks > Temple
Burdigala > Temple > Library

Attack Hakodate lose 2 GS to Spear :grr:

490 BC
Camulodunum > Library > GS
Found Glanum > Temple
Upgrade vWarrior > vGS

470 BC
Gergovia > Temple >
Augustodurum > GS > Temple
Agedincum > Warrior > Warrior
Found Isca > Temple

450 BC
Mongols and Scandinavia sign alliance against us.
Mohacs > Barracks > Temple
Lugdunum > Temple > GS
Eboracum > Warrior > Warrior
Found Segusio > Temple

430 BC
Entremont > Settler > Settler
Richborough > Galley > Harbor
Lapurdum > Barracks > GS

Land 4 GS next to Satsuma

410 BC
Indian Archer lands between Entremont and Richborough and is killed by a GS.
2 Japanese Galleys attack ours, they sink, we now have a veteran galley.
Ratae > Barracks > GS

2 GS attack Hakodate. Spear redlines one which retreats, the second kills the Spear and promotes to Elite.
Attack Satsuma: Kill 2 Spear, capture catapult. 1 Resistor.

390 BC
Mohacs > Temple > GS
Augustodurum > Temple > GS

Paris completes Sun Tzu's Art of War (That's Granaries and Barracks in one city!) Paris is a must have city. :)

370 BC
Japan asks for peace. Won't give Engineering or Monotheism... refuse.
Agedincum > Warrior > Warrior
Eboracum > Warrior > Warrior

Japan Builds Hanging Gardens (Kyoto)

Take Osaka > Temple
Gain 4 Slaves

350 BC
Entremont > Settler > Settler
Lugdunum > GS > GS
Verulamium > Library > GS
Found Rutupiae > Temple
Left the Settler with moves for jb

Firaxis score: 520
Jason score : 177

- Roster - :blush:
Durkz - On deck
MOTH -
rrau -
jb1964 -
Elmarae - Just played
RowAndLive - Up

>>>SAVE<<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/RowAndLive_SG006_BC0350_01.SAV)

I have a blank.txt with all the formating and I just add to it for the turn log. Seems I forgot to change the details on the one in the SGOTM folder. :blush:

Hey I'm blonde... what's your excuse?

rrau
Feb 19, 2005, 10:22 AM
@Elmarae - wrong roster. ;)

RowAndLive
Feb 19, 2005, 01:16 PM
I'm looking forward to this (even though I'm at work). So the primary fight is currently with Japan, as previously discussed, and minor anger management issues exist with India and a few others?

I'll post a "got it" late tonight when I get home.

Durkz
Feb 19, 2005, 02:13 PM
good thing is that kyoto finished the HG for us dont stop the war with japs they are weak because they sued for peace
[warmonger in me]kill them kill them all[/warmonger in me]

rrau
Feb 19, 2005, 02:23 PM
We still want to jump the palace to Kyoto don't we?

Durkz
Feb 19, 2005, 03:13 PM
heres a battle plan for japan

note: there are 2 iron in japan territory besides one under satsuma but the other iron is probably not connected.

mongols declared on us but they are weak but just in case send 2 GS on left side of our empire

dont buy any new techs because we will go after iroquis when we finish with japan and they have GL :)
iroquis have no horses so they will not have knights.

get peace with england they have signed 3 aliances against us they ask 79 g and WM becuse they will have a rep hit with 3 civs after we do this the other civs will sign peace for free or even give some gold for peace.

MOTH
Feb 19, 2005, 05:00 PM
We've got only one turn left on Monotheism. We should complete this and it should buy us Fuedalism from America. After that we can shut off research again until we capture the Great Library.

Iroq's with no Knights and no Mounted Warriors. :drool:

MOTH
Feb 19, 2005, 05:26 PM
More observations:
We are currently at 10% Luxury which is 11GPT to keep Augustordum happy. We can set this back to 0%, set a Scientist in August, and swith to producing a settler in 1 turn and we can then run at 0% happiness for a while again.

The two warriors towns are at 8 and 6 shields precorruption and 4 and 3 post corruption. We can shift workers arround and then can both be at 7 pre and 4 post corruption shields and both make warriors in 3 turns.

Satsuma should pop-rush a temple in 4 turns to get our borders expanded to Osaka as soon as we can.

Glanum should pop-rush a temple in 3 turns as this may be a front line city with the Mongols and having an expanded border will help slow them down.

Nemausus should work a forest to get 2spt and finish the temple faster.

Burdigala should pop-rush a (short rush) Granary in 2 turns and switch back to the Library in 10. WE can absorb 40 turns of whip happiness but we get the culture and research from the library that much quicker.

We should consider building Heroic Epic while we've got the Golden Age pushing production. Maybe in Lugdunum.

rrau
Feb 19, 2005, 09:14 PM
If we're going to palace jump to Kyoto, I'd rethink pop-rushing in our future core. We will have problems getting the cities to be happy enough to have enough citizens to be productive.

MOTH
Feb 20, 2005, 08:27 AM
The beauty of pop rushing a temple is that as soon as it is done it fixes the unhappiness that it caused. And once the whipping penalty wears off it helps keep the people happy if we do more whipping. Every new town that can support 2 food per turn should whip a temple after 10 turns.

RowAndLive
Feb 20, 2005, 09:04 PM
Someone else will have to take it. It's 10:03 Sunday night, and I'm still at work, having been here all weekend. I'll see if I can find a place to cut in later this week.
:( :sad: :cry:

MOTH
Feb 20, 2005, 09:11 PM
Durkz would be up then.

Durkz
Feb 21, 2005, 05:09 AM
got it and will play it tonight (GMT+1) :cool:

Durkz
Feb 21, 2005, 07:22 PM
turn 0 350 BC -- make peace with england for 79 g and a WM. make peace with babs they give us 30 g and TM. peace with india they give us their WM and 4 g.it revealo more of the black area and shows that japs didn't connect that other iron :D .

turn 1 330 BC -- sign peace with vikings they give us their WM and 55 g. trade with america Feu WM and 8 g for WM and Mon. rush a catapult and then rush temple (you can pop rush only the half of the population not more. 1 citizen gives 20 s temple costs 30 shields. i need 2 pop if i want to rush the temple id have to kill 2 out of 3 citizen and the game doesnt allow that, rush 20 s catapult and kill only 1 citizen and bring osaka to pop 2 and then switch to temple and rush it again. theres a bad news when we traded Feu we lost the ability to build Gs now we can only build Mi.

turn 2 310 BC -- getting ready to attack nagasaki (trying to lure out a defender with a worker). some MI built and upgraded

turn 3 290 bc -- they didnt bite the worker bait.
vet GS vs vet pike -- GS lose and redlines the pike but doesn retrat :(
vet GS vs reg pike -- GS win 2 hp left. that vet pike from the first round is elite now
vet GS vs elite pike with 2 hp -- GS die (damn RNG) but redlines the pike
vet GS vs elite pike with 1 hp -- GS wins while not losing hp.
we capture nagasaki 2 resistors i move some other gs in and move catapult to help us if we get attacked
peace with mongols

IBT japan horseman turns up from the west side (?) captures our worker and disbands him.

turn 4 270 BC -- i send 1 GS to the iron moutain near kyoto and see SOD of 1 MI and 1 Archer. im not woried about the archer but about that MI. and again i use workers to lure them out of the capital. I kill that horseman

IBT battle for the iron mountain MI attacks our GS and loses GS promotes to elite with 3 hp archer attacks him and loses leaving our GS on 1 HP (that was close :)). 2 japan horses apear on the west border

turn 5 250 BC -- lot of MI transported this turn. Iron is disconected. Bad thing is that kyoto grown to size 7 and beig the capital has 100% bonus in defense. move one more GS on the iron moutain to protect our elite gs.

turn 6 230 BC settle Mong... killed some pikes that came in our territory because i left satsuma undefended (great way to lure out defenders).
battle for yokohama
vet GS vs vet pike -- GS wins and but down to 1 HP
vet GS vs reg pike -- GS retreats no harm done to that pike
vet GS vs reg pike -- GS wins promotes to elite and down to 2 HP
we capture yokohama (japs dont have iron and horses now it bows and spears to them now)
I rushed a temple in nagasaki (i shuld have done it earlyier )

turn 7 210 BC -- nagasaki and yokohama temple pop rush. sending some troops to kyoto.

turn 8 190 BC -- some minor skirmishes with trasspassing troops (killed 2 spears and 2 pikes no units lost)

turn 9 170 BC -- our GA has ended and Comudulanum riots (civ-assist didnt told me anything the turn before) must be because GA ended.
Battle for kyoto
vet MI vs vet Pike -- MI wins redlined (haha there was only 22% that this will hapen RNG loves me) and promotes to elite.
vet MI vs vet spear -- MI dies but takes 2 hp of a spear
elite GS vs reg spear -- GS wins not a scharch on him
vet MI vs 2 hp vet spear -- vet MI dies spear promotes (man RNG hates me) 23 % chance to lose and he lost
vet MI vs 2 hp vet spear -- vet mi wins and while not losing any hp
we capture kyoto and HG
kyoto only had 3 defenders hehe my worker decoys worked good.

IBT: japan archer apears from the fog and kill our elite MI and :( (man that was bad but i made a mistake not protecting him)

turn 10 150 BC -- kill that pesky archer and pop rush a temple in kyoto.

firaxis 629

>>>The SAVE<<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/RowAndLive_SG006_BC0150_01.SAV)

Durkz
Feb 21, 2005, 07:28 PM
Durkz - played
MOTH - UP
rrau - on deck
jb1964 -
Elmarae -
RowAndLive -

Moth you shuld start a war with chinese during your turn we have enough troops to do this and china is starting to look strong and now that japan is almost conquerd we can afford to send troops to china. we have to do it now becuse china is getting stronger and we dont want that do we?

MOTH
Feb 21, 2005, 07:55 PM
Got it. I'll try and play now.

RowAndLive
Feb 21, 2005, 08:11 PM
Nice conquest Durkz! Your tactics make me a little nervous, as I hate to expend workers like that so early in the game, and prefer to do it with captureds / slaves if at all possible. Also, the loss of the fast GS will hurt badly, and I wish that we could have rushed a few more before. Unfortunately, I have no idea what the map looks like, since I haven't been able to play yet. :( Roads will help with the speed of the MI, but this is still a bad thing to me - no offense meant to your playing.

How many GS left? Do we have horses connected? Chiv soon for knights, or go straight for cav? Since we're in monger mode at this stage, I'd like to grab Leo's if possible, but Bach's is a must and comes first.

MOTH
Feb 21, 2005, 11:14 PM
Pre-flight: Check for cheap pop-rushes. Temple in Segusio. Library in Burdigala. Temple in Rutupiae.

ibt - Japs capture a worker but don't kill him. Kyoto Temple>Cathedral. Agedicum Warrior. Burdigala Library>Cathedral. Segusio Temple>Library. Rutupiae Temple>Library

130bc(1)- 2 Elite MI kills 2 Jap Spear. Rcapture worker. Rush a Catherdral at Cataract.

Battle of Edo:
Elite GS vs reg Pike: Cat takes a hp and we lose one hp and kill Pike.
Elite GS vs vet Spear: Takes 4 hits but wins.
Capture Edo with a barracks and worker and cat.

Battle of Nagoro:
Vet GS vs Reg spear - win flawlessly.
Reg GS vs Reg Spear - redline but win.

ibt - Entremont Settler>Settler Lugdug MI>HE, Camul MI>Settler, Verul MI>MI, Eboracum Warriors, Cataract Cath>Harbor, Ratae MI>MI

110bc(2) - Nara Vet GS vs Reg Spear wins flawlessly. Izumo vet GS vs reg spear wins with 1 hp loss, 2nd GS does 1 damage and retreats. Moving a pair of GS across China to get to neutal territory near the horses.

ibt - Edo riots when some resisters are quelled. Mohacs - MI>Horse Camul riots as I moved MP out. Tolosa Harbor>Library. We get a patio on our Palace.

90bc(3) - We destroy Toyama. We capture Nara and destroy a galley.

ibt - China make us move our GSs.

70bc(4) - Position for China and Tokyo,

ibt - Resistence in Edo and Nagoro ends and both riots. Everyone knows Chivalry.

50bc(5) - Build Glevum. DEstroy Izumo. Capture Tokyo. Declare war on China. Xinjian kill one reg spear with GS. Two other GS retreat. Several MI move in. Get Peace with Japan for 2 towns, Chivalry, and 3 workers. Japan is down to 3 cities surrounded by us.

ibt - lose a MI but redline an archer. A GS kills 2 archers and is promoted to Elite. Resistence in Tokyo ends.

30bc(6) - We capture Xinjian using 4 MI with minor damage and we have a 3rd luxury now, including one we can sell. We get Wool from the English in exchange for Spices and 12 Gpt.

10bc(7) - Shift some units. Some more pop-rushing.

10ad(8) - Capture Kaifeng but there are 2 logbows that can attack. Capture Ningpo. Pillage Chinese Horses.

ibt - lose pillager to longbow. Chinese capture Kaifeng.

30ad(9) - Capture Kaifeng. Capture Hangchow.

ibt - KYoto riots.

50ad(10) - Move MP back to Kyoto. Capture Tientsin.

Its late now, so I'll leave post turn analysis for later.

If we want to do the palace jump now, then we probably want to start shorting Entremont of food. Let it build another couple of settlers to abandon later. Mohacs (and maybe a couple other big cities may also have to build a settler before the jump to Kyoto.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/RowAndLive_SG006_AD0050_01.SAV

Firaxis score: 784
Jason score: 267

We still have several GS and haven't lost too many during my turns. We were able to get Chivalry from Japan in a peace treaty. We have 1 Knight and a few more in production. If we disconnect 1 Iron we can trade our other one away and build horses instead and later upgrade.

jb1964
Feb 22, 2005, 08:08 AM
Nice turns. I wouldn't have thought a 100K culture game would have started out so bloody. I must admit that is seems that everything is falling into place quite well.

MOTH
Feb 22, 2005, 09:44 AM
ok, post turnset analysis:

0. I started abreviating my turn log. We are producing lots of units and I don't think we need to list them all.

1. 150bc unit inventory: 11 slaves + 63 units: 11 workers, 2 settlers, 11 warriors, 3 catapults, 1 galley, 15 GS, 20 MI.
50ad unit inventory: 21 slaves + 67 units: 11 workers, 2 settlers, 8 warriors, 1 Knight, 4 catapults, 1 galley, 13 GS, 27 MI.
Changes: +10 slaves, -3 warriors, +1 Knight, +1 catapult, -2 GS, +7 MI.

2. I could have kept pushing on Japan, but any of our cities with Japanese citizens were very unhappy. They also had a stack of 8 warriors and 2 swords near Tokyo. We can finish them off in 15 turns. The stack moved off to the North after we did peace.

3. Palace Jump. Kyoto is at size 8 now with 5 native and 3 Japanese Citizens. Still very corrupt. We can switch Entremont to 0 surplus food by working 2 forests and the 2 bonus grass for a settler in 4 turns. Note that the wheat and Game can be used by other cities. We will then be at size 2. Work the 2 forests again for 0 food and 5 spt for another settler in 6 more turns. When the 2nd settler is built This will give us the option of abandoning Entremont. We should also build settlers out of any of our cities that are size 7 or 8 to help ensure the jump goes to the right place.
Do we want to initiate this process now? I think yes. The sooner the second core is running, the quicker we can build and research.
Side note: I think Augustordum can become a 4 turn settler factory by using the 2 games.

4. Worker force. We had 1 slave and 12 workers before Durkz turn. He netted 10 slaves and lost 1 native worker. I netted another 10 slaves for 21 slaves and 11 workers total. We should concentrate on getting roads into our ICS areas. Don't bother mining the tundra for now - these cities are more productive by either pop-rushing or building an ocasional worker to ship out.

5. Settlers. We have 2 right now. 1 is inplace for an ICS location near China. The other just moved to the south. We need to use a good portion of the worker forces to extend the roads into the areas where we are going to use ICS placement.

6. Technology. We are now down just Republic and Invention now. We are currently 5 turns into a 1 scientist run towards Theology. We have several Libraries in the core and can crank out the science pretty well when we try. I don't think we should worry about a Great Library Elavator. The AIs are researching pretty slowly and we should consider getting some of the nice culture wonders on the upper research path while trading for the military techs on the lower path.

7. Flip risks: are pretty low generally and will completely evaporate when we eliminate the Japanese and Chinese.

8. Keep an eye on the prize. We need to keep working on culture and on getting more cities. Culture and progress towards 100K victory condition: We are now at almost 2k culture and gaining about 100cpt. We should continue to get temples in each city asap followed by libraries. The best path for short-rushing libraries are to rush a settler at 10 shields to get to 30. The get 10 more and rush a granary and then the library - total cost 20 sheilds and 3 population.

In comparison to the other ptw/1.29 teams team Tao has passed us in score but hasn't built as much culture yet. Once we get the second core operating we should be able to accelerate and catch up and pass the C3C teams. If we are the 1st ptw/1.29 to get the second core running this should keep us ahead there too.

9. Expansion post China and Japan conquests. There will be many locations in China to add ICS locations. There will be some locations in Japan to add some RCP locations. Don't go crazy in Japan as the sparse placement will allow our FP based core much lower corruption.

10. Resources and Trading: We can trade horses and Iron to Carthage. It will be a little while before we take them on and this could buy us Invention and maybe some cash in the meanwhile. If we don't sell it someone else might. We can also consider disconnecting our mountain Iron. This will allow us to build cheap horsemen. We won't be able to upgrade them until we either hook the iron back up or terminate the trade deal.

MOTH
Feb 22, 2005, 09:50 AM
Durkz - beat on the Japs.
MOTH - just played crippled the Japs and start on the Chinese
rrau - UP cripple the Chinese
jb1964 - on deck finish off the Chinese and Japs
Elmarae - ?? start on the Indians, Iroqs, and/or Mongols ??
RowAndLive - Fit in a turnset when RL allows


I really should add this to my template turn log file....

RowAndLive
Feb 22, 2005, 02:24 PM
What about the FP? I'd hate to think that we let the core go to seed with corruption. Then again, I've never played a 100K, so maybe we need 2 new cores, and let the original collect culture?

rrau
Feb 22, 2005, 05:24 PM
Got it, but won't play until tomorrow.

Durkz
Feb 22, 2005, 07:24 PM
Nice conquest Durkz! Your tactics make me a little nervous, as I hate to expend workers like that so early in the game, and prefer to do it with captureds / slaves if at all possible. Also, the loss of the fast GS will hurt badly, and I wish that we could have rushed a few more before. Unfortunately, I have no idea what the map looks like, since I haven't been able to play yet. :( Roads will help with the speed of the MI, but this is still a bad thing to me - no offense meant to your playing.

How many GS left? Do we have horses connected? Chiv soon for knights, or go straight for cav? Since we're in monger mode at this stage, I'd like to grab Leo's if possible, but Bach's is a must and comes first.

well i did it with slaves

i lost only 1 of our workers when jap horeseman apeard from the mongol direction he came out of the fog and disbanded our worker

just download latest save and load up the game to take a look, but dont play it.

Durkz
Feb 22, 2005, 07:38 PM
Im a warrmonger (but builder in hart). I too have noticed that reasearche has slowed down dramaticly that is a good thing. we dont need GL as you said.

The second core hmm....

C3C guys cant have two cores runing due to a fact that in C3C FP only icreases the OCN. and i agree sooner we have the second core operating the better. so rrau should probably do the jump.

MOTH
Feb 22, 2005, 07:41 PM
We already have the FP in our current core. You can use civ assist to see the effect of moving the palace. A quick check shows that with the palace in Entremont we have 19 cities at 89% or higher corruption. With the palace in Kyoto we will only 2 cities over 89% and only have 13 with more than 50% corruption.

This may have gotten lost in my prior post. What does the rest of the team think about instigating the Palace Jump starting now?

jb1964
Feb 23, 2005, 06:58 AM
Execute the jump. However, not taking a good look at the game for a day or two, please do not jump it to a place where it's in any danger of getting sacked.

Kytoto is a prime piece of real estate so it's as good a place as any.

I'll have to d/l the Civ Assist tool. I have an old version but I don't think it had a corruption calculation tool.

RowAndLive
Feb 23, 2005, 10:38 AM
Sorry, I missed that we already have the FP. It sounds good to jump now.

MOTH
Feb 23, 2005, 02:25 PM
Some Palace Jump details:
1. Sell Granary in Entremont. We don't need it anymore and might as well stop paying maintenence.

2. Reduce the size of existing cities. Mohacs is size 8 and needs to build a settler or maybe 2 before the Palace jumps. Lugdunum, Camulodunum, Richborough, Augustodurum, and Ratae are all size 5. We should try and keep them size 5 or 6 if possible and maybe get a Settler out of some of these cities as well.

3. We need to build a granary in Augustdorum to get it running as a 4 turn settler pump. I think we have 30 shields into a Knight that can be switched to granary.

4. Here is the setup for running Augustdorum as a 4 turn settler pump. We have plenty of mined bgs which is good. We need to make sure we keep another mined bg or forest to auto-work on growth. I'm not sure of the corruption numbers for wasted shields, but I think it is usually 1 sheild and 2 at size 6. It does mean we will have to run from size 4.5 to 6.5 instead of size 4 and 5.

Turn 1, Size 4.5: 5 food in the bank, +5 food, works Irrigated Game, Mined Game, 2 Mined bgs, and suto-work mined bg. 6 sh +2 on growth - 1 waste = 7 shields.
Turn 2, Size 5: + 5 food. Works GameI, GameM, 3xBgM. 8 shields - 1 waste = 14 shields.
Turn 3, Size 5.5: 5 food in bank + 5 food. Works GameI, GameM, 3xBgM + forest on growth. 8 shields + 2 on growth - 2 waste = 22 shields.
Turn 4, Size 6: + 5 food. Works GameI, GameM, 4xBgM. 10 shields - 2 waste = 30 shields.

MOTH
Feb 23, 2005, 03:02 PM
Palace Jumping Mechanics from DaveMcW's article:

Each city gets points as follows. The city with the most points gets the Palace.
3 points per national citizen
1 point per foreign citizen
1 point per neighboring town (1-6)
2 points per neighboring city (7-12)
3 points per neighboring metropolis (13+)
1 point per military unit

Neighbor cities are within 8 walking tiles (a 17x17 diamond).

A tie goes to the first city in the database (which should be Kyoto).

As I count it (not counting other nations towns):
Kyoto has 15+3+10+0+0+1 = 29
Kyoto at size 10 with 2 mp units would have 21+3+10+0+0+2 = 36
Mohacs has 24+0+19+0+0+1= 44 - way too big.
Mohacs at size 5 would have 15+0+19+0+0+1= 35.
Some of the other cities have up to 22 neighbors, so at size 5 these could be 38 points with one mp unit.

These numbers are a little to close for comfort. We should definately move the mp units out of any size 5 town the turn before the jump.

So, I forget how many military units we have near Kyoto (1 mp is there and another can arrive next turn.) These can help push the points up for Kyoto. There are others in nearby cities that can be moved in.

To get to size 10 we will need to join a settler or 2 native workers. Size 11 would be better, but I'm not sure we can support these units happiness wise unless they are joined on the turn before the jump and we let it riot for a turn.

Bullet points:
1. All other cities can be at max size of 5 (not 6 like I stated earlier).
2. No MPs in size 5 cities.
3. Join a settler to Kyoto the turn before the jump.
4. Move as many military units as possible into Kyoto before the jump.
5. After the palace jump consider pop-rushing a settler out of Kyoto to get size and happiness back in check.

rrau
Feb 23, 2005, 11:36 PM
>>>THE SAVE<<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/RowAndLive_SG006_AD0250_01.SAV)

preflight (50ad)

Trade Carthage Horses and Iron for Invention, Republic, and WM
We're down gunpowder
Sell granary in Entremont
MM Mohacs to get knight in 2
Switch Augustodurum to granary

ibt: lost a 3/4 MI to 3/3 horse, rest defended

turn 1 (70ad)

4/4 MI vs 3/3 spear => 1/4 MI
4/4 MI vs 3/3 spear => 1/4 MI
4/4 MI vs 1/3 horse => 4/4 MI
4/4 MI vs 3/4 hore => horse retreats
4/4 MI vs 3/3 archer => 2/4 MI
5/5 GS vs 3/3 archer => 4/5 GS

ibt:

America and Iroquois signed peace treaty
1/4 MI loses against 1/4 horse

turn 2 (90ad)

4/4 MI vs 1/4 horse => 3/4 MI
4/4 MI vs 3/3 warrior => 3/4 MI
Captured Anyang without loss of troops - did have one GS retreat

ibt: 4 chinese horse appear from the west in Mongol territory

turn 3 (110ad)

Rush emples in Edo and Nara
Shift some troops south to meet the horses

ibt: Carthage is moving a lot of troops near Matsuyama

turn 4 (130ad)

Capture Nanking but lost a lot of troops (about 50% loss rate). It was size 6 and not across a river and on a desert tile, so I guess the RNG was just against me this turn
Settle Lezouk
Move troops into Matsuyama

ibt:

Carthage DoW on us and Captures Matsuyama
We get a palace expansion

turn 5 (150ad)

Buy MA with Iroquois vs Carthage for 283g
Muy MA with Mongols vs Carthage for 100g

ibt: Babylon and Iroquois signed MA vs Carthage

turn 6 (170ad)

moving troops and picked off some stray enemies

turn 7 (190ad)

Rushed Temples in Tientsen, Nanking, Xinjian, Monguntiacum

moving troops

ibt: Scandanavia and America signed peace treaty

turn 8 (210ad)

Settle Noviomagus

ibt:

Mongols and America signed peace treaty
Signed RoP with Mongols

turn 9 (230ad)

join settler to Kyoto
Captured Canton and lost a MI
Rushed temple in Kaifeng, Axima, Glevum, Hangchow.
Counted and can't do the palace jump this turn. (Lugdunum wins by 2 or 3 points due to all its neighbors) We need to wait until Lugundum finished HE and then pop rush something
Switched Entremont to a worker. (I think you only get one shot to abandon the city with a settler being produced). Will add the worker back in and start another settler.

ibt: Got 2 palace expansions

turn 10 (250ad)

Added worker back to Entremont. MM'd for no growth.
failed to capture Chengdu, but you can try again next turn as there are two fully healed elite MI's ready to defeat the remaining longbow.
Whipped 2 or 3 libraries.


Notes:

I have MM'd several cities not to grow for now until we get the palace jump completed.

Lugdunum will build HE this turn. Maybe consider pop rushing a settler out of there (or a military unit or a culture building - whatever you want, we just need the population to drop). Entremont builds a settler again in 6 turns.

Once we do the palace jump we can let the cities grow larger again and build units faster to replace the ones I lost.

Sorry, I got tired of listing all the individual battle results.



Firaxis 981
Jason 334

Elmarae
Feb 24, 2005, 11:38 AM
Just want to inform everyone that I am alive, my computer died as a result of the cpu fan seizing up. Don't have many thoughts, looks like everything has been planned out. Just want to say :goodjob:

jb1964
Feb 24, 2005, 11:58 AM
Hiya, will d/l 2nite and try and get in a couple of turns.

MOTH
Feb 24, 2005, 04:48 PM
Did you see the new QCS stats Alan put up? We are second in QCS score at 1000BC. And we were only 4 QSC pts behind team jefflemmar. Some of the other teams have more temples than we at that point and one team even has the Great Lighthouse. It doesn't look like any team got the pyramids, so Mad-Bax stacked the deck on that one by giving France 2 settlers and a highly productive capitol region.

On the regular score we have also passed one of the C3C teams, but they have more culture. One of the other PTW/1.29 teams has passed us in score, but we have more culture.

Anyway you look at it we've had a great start.

jb1964
Feb 24, 2005, 08:57 PM
Turn 0 – 250 AD
All looks well w/ the world.

IBT:
We lose a MI to a LB and another LB moves into Chengdu.
HE finishes

Turn 1 –
Elite MI takes LB and we get a GL!
Second MI defeats LB and takes Chengdu.
I’ll wait a turn to whip something in Lugdunham as a worker’s going to cost us 2 citizens.

OK, on turn 1 we have a GL. Wadda ya wanna do wit it?

rrau
Feb 24, 2005, 09:03 PM
I can't recall, but I don't think we have a lot of options due to the mod on the leaders. Maybe use it move the palace? Or do we want a knight army since we're about to do the palace jump?

Anyone else have any ideas?

MOTH
Feb 24, 2005, 09:19 PM
For Lugdunum maybe we can just build 2 workers to take care of size...

Make a Knight Army!

For the leader, we can't use it for any wonders, great or small. So, we can't use it to move the Palace. We could disband it to get shieldsm but thats a waste at this point. Later maybe we will use some of the leaders to build Universities and eventually factories.

MOTH
Feb 24, 2005, 09:23 PM
We may also want to get peace with China instead of finishing them off. If we can get a Tech and 2 cities or 2 techs and 1 city then I say we should take peace. We can start in on Japan again as soon as we jump the palace.

jb1964
Feb 24, 2005, 11:14 PM
A knight army it is. After turn 1 we'll have sheilds in the bank in Lugdunham and then we can start on rushing something on turn 2. At the end of turn 2 we'll ditch Entremont and the jump will be complete.

RowAndLive
Feb 25, 2005, 01:25 PM
I would have preferred to dump it for shields toward a wonder - but I know that the objective is to remove the GLs as a factor in the victory, so no points toward Bach's or Leo's... A knight army is as good as anything. I wonder if we'd get any growth bonuses for a settler army? :hmm:

jb1964
Feb 25, 2005, 05:47 PM
Hey, I still have not fired this up for the evening so let me know if there are other ideas of what to do w/ the GL.

Durkz
Feb 25, 2005, 05:59 PM
GL cant rush great or small wonders in SGOTM they can be disbanded for 250 shields (i think?) .250 shield rush doesnt work for the small or great wonders. so army are the only solution for our GL maybe later when we dont need armies we can rush universities but now knight army would be awsome.

MOTH
Feb 25, 2005, 06:26 PM
If you still haven't fired it up, I don't know if you need to do a pop-rush with Lugdunum. Building a worker will reduce pop in 1 turn. We have another size 6 city that we need to wait to build a worker also.

Elmarae
Feb 26, 2005, 11:57 AM
Sorry I haven't been putting in as much input as the others. It's mainly because the points I would bring up are already on the table. I think posting just a "me too" is a waste of everyone's time. I am reading and watching the game, if something draws my attention I will pipe up. Just to let you guys & gal know I'm still around.

The silent one :)

jb1964
Feb 26, 2005, 01:31 PM
When we jump to Kyoto Nagasaki will be at ring 4 while 4 other cities will be at 5. The next “ring” after that has one city at 7 and 4 at eight. I think the AI is just taunting us. Nagasaki has a temple, built in 30BC that’s giving us 32 culture. Is it worth thre reduction in rank corruption to abandon Nagasaki and found another city at ring-5?

Durkz
Feb 26, 2005, 03:26 PM
if you abandon nagasaki and found another city in rcp5 it will not decrease our corruption, and if you leave it there it will not increase our corruption in any way.
The closer the city to the palace the lower corruption it has. RCP is about that.
i might be wrog here but we coul squeeze some more RCP 4 cities.

jb1964
Feb 26, 2005, 03:49 PM
i might be wrog here but we coul squeeze some more RCP 4 cities.

I was thinking the same thing or push towards the Japanese boarder.

MOTH
Feb 26, 2005, 05:11 PM
Jb and durkz, you are fogetting about the effect of corruption around the FP. If we are at RCP 5 around the capitol then the corruption in everycity 5 or less from the FP will be at Rank 1 for corruption.

Durkz
Feb 26, 2005, 06:04 PM
Jb and durkz, you are fogetting about the effect of corruption around the FP. If we are at RCP 5 around the capitol then the corruption in everycity 5 or less from the FP will be at Rank 1 for corruption.

that's why we have you in our team to tell us that :blush:

all bow to MOTH the MM lord :worship: :worship:

MOTH
Feb 26, 2005, 07:45 PM
Once we have the next save (and have eliminated the Japs?) we can take a deeper look at placement for future cities. RCP 5 and 8 for the capitol sound good and should result in pretty productive and large cities.

jb1964
Feb 26, 2005, 10:34 PM
Turn 0 – 250 AD
All looks well w/ the world.

IBT:
We lose a MI to a LB and another LB moves into Chengdu.
HE finishes

Turn 1 – 260 AD
Elite MI takes LB and we get a GL!
Second MI defeats LB and takes Chengdu.
I’ll wait a turn to whip something in Lugdunham as a worker’s going to cost us 2 citizens.

We really don’t have the forces to take the bigger Chinese cities so we make peace for Chinan, Shantung and 50g. No techs.

I think our next source of techs will be the Iroquois while doing pointy-stick research. However, it would be nice to have Theology under our belts so we can get Education in the peace deal.

I screwed up and accidentally hit the “next turn” button so I reloaded. No change in status as I had just saved to run it through MapStat. Hope that's Kosher. OK, nothing lost and no extra work really needed. Next! :p

IBT: Mao walks into our territory w/ 4 spears.

Turn 2 – 270 AD - We tell Mao to beat it and he does.

When we jump to Kyoto Nagasaki will be at ring 4 while 4 other cities will be at 5. The next “ring” after that has one city at 7 and 4 at eight. I think the AI is just taunting us. Nagasaki has a temple, built in 30BC that’s giving us 32 culture. Is it worth the reduction in rank corruption to abandon Nagasaki and found another city at ring-5?

Going to pause here for input and a soccer game. (My boys won 3-2 at the cost of a kick just under the shin guard. A little ice and all's right w/ the world.)

The army has a lone knight and I’m sending it to the East while it will still sail on a galley.
We bust a pike out of Entremont before abandoning and top off the settler in Agustodurum. All cities at size 5 or less.

IBT:
Mao’s up to something with these four spears. I’ll have to see whom else he’s at odds with. (It turns out he's not at war and these spears seem to be just wandering the countryside for now.)

Turn 3 – 280 AD - Palace jump to Kyoto is complete.

IBT:
Well, I gave Mao a big fat target, a lone settler, and he passed on it.
Our boarders expand and disturb the barb village on the tundra island.
We get a palace expo.

Turn 4 – 290 AD
Found Durocortorum.
Sh*t! – This damn thing has crashed again! :mad:
Reboot time. Too many apps running and too many pauses between turns.
Well, it was an intricate turn that I get to play again. What fun.
Chengdu quits revolting and we whip a library.

IBT: Hannibal wants peace and will give Nora but nothing else. He can suffer some more.

Turn 5 – 300 AD - Not much.

IBT: The Chinese spears are moving off.

Turn 6 – 310 AD
Lizzy wants to redo the wool deal but for more gold. Although the Japanese furs are coming in soon it will be nice to have that wool to let our cities go w/o cops or grow just a little bit bigger.

IBT: Nothing

Turn 7 – 320 AD - Troop movements, whips and workers.

IBT: Nothing

Turn 8 – 330 AD
Well, the loaded knight army has arrived at the Japanese boarder so it’s go time! DoW.
Entremont is reborn NE of Kyoto.

IBT:
Kyoto riots due to the war. I think we’ll cull some of the population next turn.

Turn 9 – 340 AD
We buy wines off Joan for a reasonable price.
Ise falls easily to a MI and knight. Dead are a rPike and rSpear at the cost of a single hp on the MI. I wish the knight army had been so lucky.
A vet pike in Kagoshima puts our knight army into the yellow. We can attack w/ one more knight this turn but we’ll hit it hard the next w/ LB's so we’ll keep him healthy for now.
We kick out the Chinese spears again but they wind up stuck behind our lines.

IBT: Nothing

Turn 10 – 350 AD
Kagoshima had fewer defenders than I thought. After two LB losses our army took out the two defending pikes. A more than adequate force of fast movers is at the steps of Shimonoseki.

We build a city, Agedincum, on top of the incense between us and the Mongols. It's bracketed w/ Mogol cities but our boarders push theirs back 'cause we got culture.

Notes:
I whipped the snot out of a few, actually more than a few, cities but we got cathedrals and such out of it. BTW, now that we can build cathedrals they should be built prior to libraries since they give an extra culture and cost the same.
I notice a former Cathaginian city is in the hands of the Iroquois. Taking on the Iroquois should be easy work if they're busy w/ Hannibal.

I sent MI's & pikes to the boarders and fast movers at Japan.

I thought Mao was up for a sneak attack w/ his wandering spears (looking for undefended cities) but he's got plenty of workers on the boarder and has pulled back his forces twice this set.

I never did rush anything in Kyoto as there where no sheilds in the bank. The war should be over quickly so use the population at your discretion.

Your team: RowAndLive
Game date: 250 AD
Player race: Celts
Firaxis score: 981
Jason score: 334

MOTH
Feb 27, 2005, 06:43 AM
Hey jb, I think you uploaded and attached the wrong save. Your turn log indicates turn 350AD, but you attached 250AD...

Looks like some good turns. Palace Jump, Knight Army, nearly finish off the Japanese...

Durkz
Feb 27, 2005, 07:33 AM
nice turns. yea you uploaded the wrong save :D

jb1964
Feb 27, 2005, 07:48 AM
Doh! The upload has been corrected. :crazyeye:

Hmmm, did I also load the wrong file into the SGoTM tracker? Double Doh! Yes, I did.

1828
Game: SGOTM 06
Your team: RowAndLive
Your name: RowAndLive
Date submitted: 2005-02-27
Software Version: PtW 1.27f
Game date: 350 AD
Player race: Celts
Firaxis score: 1196
Jason score: 407
Time played: 38:53:16
Game status: Incomplete
Submitted save: RowAndLive_SG006_AD0350_01.SAV
The link from the save page... (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/RowAndLive_SG006_AD0350_01.SAV)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sgotm_graph.png
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/sgotm_culture_graph.png

Durkz
Feb 27, 2005, 06:21 PM
Durkz
MOTH
rrau
jb1964 -just played
Elmarae - UP
RowAndLive - On deck

1 post more for me (we can consider this thread as our personal spam place :mischief: )

Elmarae
Feb 27, 2005, 09:52 PM
Got it... will play in a while.

Cathedral is 3 Culture for 2 maintenance, Library is 3 culture for 1 maintenance.

So build orders for new towns (in ICS areas) should be:
Assuming 2 food and 1 shield
10 turns Temple (30) then rush
10 turns Lib/Cath (80) > Settler (30) rush > Lib/Cath
10 turns Lib/Cath > Granary (60) rush > Lib/Cath add worker and rush
10 turns Coloseum (120) > Settler (30) rush > Coloseum (culture:
10 turns Coloseum > Granary (60) rush > Coloseum
20 turns Coloseum > Marketplace (100) rush > Coloseum rush. (Culture 10pt)

Or if we want to build quickly and can set up some worker factories we can build each in one turn. AWR = adding a worker and rushing.

Temple: 2 workers (Walls AWR Temple AWR) (waste of 10 shields :mad: )
Library/Cathedral: 4 workers (Walls AWR Barracks AWR Granary AWR Library/Cathedral AWR)
Coloseum: 6 workers (Walls AWR Barracks AWR Granary AWR Courthouse AWR Marketplace AWR Coloseum AWR)

16 workers and 4 turns per town and we would have towns producing (2+3+3+2) 10 culture per turn. 6 unhappy citizens will be made content. After the 4 turns the towns can then focus on building workers, thus fueling the new towns.

Edit: My 200th post :dance: :beer: :band: :bounce: :banana:

RowAndLive
Feb 27, 2005, 10:35 PM
This is looking very good, everyone! Thanks for carrying the ball while I was busy. I should have time this week, after Elmarae.

MOTH
Feb 28, 2005, 08:06 AM
My current observations are that we will need to start mass producing settlers again once we have eliminated Japan and China and are in the process of wiping out the Iroqouis and Mongols. Knights vs Muskets won't be pretty, but it is the best thing available right now.

Japan should be wiped out as soon as we reach their cities.

China we will start on again in 11 turns after the Peace deal runs out. We should try and move some slow foot units to the Northern city so as to rush the Chinese city there at the restart of the war.

We can get peace with Carthage for 2 cities right now, the problem will be in defending these cities. I say that we should stay at war unless they will give us Gunpowder. An alternate choice is get these cities and gift them to Babylon and France to get them embroiled in a war where they will quickly lose these cities.

RowAndLive
Feb 28, 2005, 10:35 AM
We can get peace with Carthage for 2 cities right now, the problem will be in defending these cities. I say that we should stay at war unless they will give us Gunpowder. An alternate choice is get these cities and gift them to Babylon and France to get them embroiled in a war where they will quickly lose these cities.

I really like the idea of the French & Babylonian War, but that is just a general feeling. I'd rather hold out for Gunpowder.

jb1964
Feb 28, 2005, 04:16 PM
There are a good number of MI's and a single elite GS* on the northern boarder w/ China. Much of our backyard is devoid of units so don't go ticking off the Vikings. :viking:

I predict Elmarae will make short work of the Japanese and then our fast movers can start into the Iroquois.

We have had a great run of expand - build - conquer. We can take the forces at hand and punish Carthage or start into the Iroquois. For building we can focus on building culture in the existing cities (joining workers) or building settlers for more temples (ICS). Personally, I would like to grow the slope of our culture curve in the short term.

Elmarae
Mar 01, 2005, 07:24 PM
Now I know why I prefer pointy stick wins... culture is so boring and tedious. Especially when you can only pop rush. After 2 turns which took an hour each as I evaluated and re-evaluated our culture position. Changed alot of the knight builds to cathedrals with rushes if appropriate.

Found the easiest way to go through the list was to use F1, organise it by pop, lowest at the top, then scroll down until you get to pop 2, multiply turns x production. If that is a multiple of 20 or 19, then pop rush. Noticed that walls are only 10 shields, not 20 as it says in the civpedia.

If we are going to start another major military campaign I thoroughly recommend it be against France, getting the pyramids can only help us. Pop is production, and having granaries in all our cities can only be good. We will need to get everyone dog piling on France, to also knock down her culture.

Will play the next 8 turns when my eyes return to normal. :crazyeye:

Durkz
Mar 01, 2005, 07:42 PM
walls cost 20 shiels but becuse we are militaristic we get them for half price.

If we are going to attack france we have to capture their iron, horses and saltpeper sources first

Elmarae
Mar 01, 2005, 09:07 PM
Blonde moment no: 6 :P

MOTH
Mar 01, 2005, 09:40 PM
We should finish off Japan and China first to remove the flip risk. We should consider slowing on the pop rushing for a bit. We will need about 20 more settlers to ICS the land near China and Mongol and will need more to fill in the rest of China's area and the vacant land.

As for FRance:
Should we consider ROP Rape to take down France quickly? Bring some of our own settlers along to expand borders and reduce flip risk of Paris.

We could get the dog pile going first and after the MA's expire we could then get peace and a ROP and go in deep and fast and decisive.

rrau
Mar 01, 2005, 10:17 PM
We definitely want to wait to tackle France until they've spent their GA. I don't know if they've had it from wonders, but they'll get it during the war if they have salt. Waiting the 20 turns for the MA's to expire should also use up their GA if they haven't already had it. Do we have enough troops to do this right now? It seems like we've been focusing on culture lately. We might need to build our army back up for a few turns.

However, team Peanut is not too far behind us on the culture curve, so we can't ignore culture too much. We have to try to find a good balance.

Elmarae
Mar 01, 2005, 11:51 PM
Japan is a has been. :hammer:

New towns should pop rush temple/cath/lib then build workers to help pop rush other new towns.

We should devote 6 towns to culture production : 1x4 turn settler factory, 5x2turn worker factory. This will give us 1 settler and 10 workers ever 4 turns.

Turn 1: Settler settles town > temple, the workers chop forest if available.
Turn 2: Add worker rush temple (if forest chop) otherwise rush catapult then temple adding 2 workers.
Turn 3: Temple built > Cathedral
Turn 4: add 4 workers > rush catapult (20) > barracks (40) > granary (60) > Cathedral
Turn 5: Cathedral built > Library
Turn 6: add 4 workers > rush catapult (20) > barracks (40) > granary (60) > Library
Turn 7: Library built
Then this town can start building workers, to help fund further pop rushes.

In our more productive cities, we can focus on culture then workers on growth and military otherwise. Say Knight > Worker/Settler > Knight > Worker

MOTH
Mar 02, 2005, 08:05 AM
I don't think we can do the worker adds for the purpose of pop-rushing.

From the GOTM Rules on illegal exploits:
Pop-rushing
In despotism and communism it is possible to use cities purely for unit rush
building. Workers can be added to such a city and then the city can then
use them to rush build units. This is disallowed, so do not create these kind
of cities. Pop rushing one or two regular citizens to finish a building or to
build a unit is within the rules and the spirit of the game. What is against
the rules is joining workers to cities for the purpose of pop rushing.

I will also post this in the maintenence thread to confirm that this is the correct understanding.

Elmarae
Mar 02, 2005, 11:08 AM
ooh oops... luckily I haven't done it yet but I will hold off on my turns before organising such a thing.

MOTH
Mar 02, 2005, 01:41 PM
Looks like the ruling will be no joining to do pop rushes. We also will need to start watching building maintenence costs. I think in the corrupt cities the most long term culture buildings we can support are Temple, Library, Cathedral. We would have 1 taxman and produce wealth for 3 gold - 4 cost = -1gpt per corrupt city. This doesn't come into play for a while yet.

This means that our core cities should only be doing 1 of 3 things:
1. Building Culture buildings
2. Building Military to capture cities and slaves.
3. Building Settlers.

As I noted above, we need 20 settlers to ICS the land near China and Mongols. Lets bleed off a settler every time our population nears 7. I don't think we need any size 7 cities right now. We should also settle one of the tiles (hills?) near the old Entremont location - I think there are 6 tiles in that core area that are being wasted and will be very low corruption. Once we have a corrupt city with nothing to do we can have it produce workers which we can join to high production cities producing settlers. We want to ICS the world right up to the domination limit even if the only thing we add to these cities are temples.

As for culture buildings in ICS cities, assuming that we can get +2food and using only local population for pop-rushing, I think the following build plan will need to be followed:
Turn 1. Settle and build temple.
Turn 10. Size 2 - 10 shields in bank - pop-rush a temple
Turn 11. Start a settler
Turn 20. Size 2 - 10 shields in bank: Pop-rush settler and switch to Granary.
Turn 30. Size 2 - 40 shields in bank: Pop-rush granary and switch to Library.
Turn 40. Size 2 - 70 shields in bank. Pop-rush Library at waste of 10 shields.
Turn 41: Start settler
Turn 50: Size 2 - 10 shields in bank - pop rush settler switch to Granary
Turn 60: Size 2 - 40 shields in bank - pop rush Granary
Turn 70 Size 2 - 70 shields in bank - pop rush Cathedral at waste of 10 shields
Turn 71: Size 1 0 sheilds - produce 1 worker every 10 turns or switch to taxman+wealth

MOTH
Mar 02, 2005, 03:31 PM
A little info about our AI competitors circa 350AD gleaned from CrpViewer:
Celts: Doing well. Making 178 cpt. 4579 culture total.
Japan: just about dead.
Babylon: Has already had Golden Age a while ago. Is making about 122 cpt.
France: Making 197 cpt. 6600 culture total.
Mongols: Started GA in 150AD. Making 29 cpt.
Carthage: GA started in 130AD. Leader in 300AD. 34 cpt.
China: Soon to be dead.
England: Making 42 cpt.
Iroquois: GA started in 210AD. 39 cpt.
India: 14 cpt.
Vikings: 24 cpt.
America: Got Leader in 430BC. 10 cpt.

Analysis: France and Babylon are the culture leaders. France is making a bit more cpt than us and Babylon a bit less. We need to more than double their cpt to get our 100K victory. Or they must be eliminated.

Durkz
Mar 02, 2005, 05:32 PM
Hmm... do we have to worry about our rep now. becuse we will probably kill off most of the other civs (france and babilon are on my black list MWHAHAHAHAHA :mischief: )

:bump: <------me hitting the refresh button (cant wait to see how you played out your turns Elmarae

Durkz
Mar 02, 2005, 05:35 PM
P.S.

we should just keep our GPT rep clean and our luxury rep clean

SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM!!!!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

jb1964
Mar 03, 2005, 08:52 AM
Is there a difference between a GPT & Luxury rep vs. a RoP rep? I thought your rep was your rep. Torch one facet of it and the rest goes out the door as well.

Culture calculation questions...
If I have a temple long enough to generate 100 culture points and then lose the temple (sold, city sacked, captured or abandoned), do the 100 cps get deducted from my total?

The answer to this is the key to how we treat our French and Babylonian buddies.

MOTH
Mar 03, 2005, 09:59 AM
Culture question:
No, the culture accumulated sticks around. The only way to eliminate the culture already accumulated is to eliminate the civilization. As for Babylon, we should be able to double their CPT generation once we have a bunch more ICS cities. France is tougher and we will need to make sure they lose most of their cities.

Reputation question:
Yes, there are different reps, but it is easy to trash all of them in one shot.

If you have no ongoing deals with a civ and declare war while you have troops in their territory you will only destroy your ROP rep.

If you break a deal where you were giving a Lux or resource for cash instead of GPT you will not be able to trade Luxes for cash (but still can for gpt).

If you break a deal involving GPT you will not be able to pay gpt anymore.

If you break a MA by signing peace early or by eliminating the oponent it will be tough to get MAs anymore.

Here is a tricky part about breaking deals:
If you are in a multi-turn deal with a Civ that is about to be eliminated by a third party, the other AI's will/can see that as breaking the deal.

In my GOTM40 I had ongoing deals (MAs and Lux) with the Romans and Carthagians who were about to be eliminated by the Persians. I gifted each of them one of my corrupt cities to keep them from being eliminated and keeping my rep intact. It also worked out as Persia was my competition for Secretary General and the Romans and Carthagianians hated them and loved me!

I have been able to pay gpt for a lux, but if I through in just 1 gold they goto "Never Gonna Do It."

jb1964
Mar 03, 2005, 10:46 AM
Then should we go for a superior culture curve (out build and reduce opponents ability to create more culture) or should we have them liquidated?

I'm always a proponent of liquidating the Babylonians.

Additionally, this means that we can abandon and reposition cities for lower corruption rates at a lower cost to our culture.

RowAndLive
Mar 03, 2005, 11:17 AM
We have to keep in mind that the prize is for the fastest win. While an early dom startegy will get us there, it MAY not get us there as quickly as if we were to start some culture now. I guess that depends on the speed of the conquering. Sir Plebe's thread on this leads one to believe that culture can be mass-built at the end , relying mostly on captured wonders and ICS cities - but that includes pop-rushing. Without pop-rush, I'm inclined to think that we need to start getting some culture now.

As such, once China's gone, and we've started the dogpile on Frnace, let's do a round or two of culture buildings before reverting to more military. ICS should always follow the ICS plan.

Elmarae
Mar 03, 2005, 12:05 PM
Preflight
Looks okay, pressed enter

360 AD
Take Shimonoseki (redlined a Knight and GS)
Rush a few things here and there.

370 AD
Nagasaki > settler > abandoned
Found Eboracum
Destroy the japanese at the cost of 2 GS :(
Rush here and there again
Sign peace with Carthage for 3 towns.

380 AD
Grenoble builds Leonardo's (France)!! Need to invade France!
Buy Iroquoi worker for 110g + WM
Trade Gunpowder with Carthage for Iron and Horses. (Saltpeter in Japan)

420 AD
Oil Springs builds Sistine Chapel. Declare war on Iroquois.

430 AD
London builds JS Bach's Cathedral

450 AD
Opps counter attack from the Iroquois take out 4 knights! And a miss move places 2 catapults in jeapody if India decides to sneak attack.

Firaxis score: 1425
Jason score: 485

>>>The Save<<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/RowAndLive_SG006_AD0450_01.SAV)

- Roster -
Durkz - On deck
MOTH -
rrau -
jb1964 -
Elmarae - Just played
RowAndLive - Up

Well I must say I don't think I did to well. R&L I've left you a mess to deal with. None of the AI's would trade with me. I started a war with the Iroquois we may not be able to follow through with. My excessive pop rushing to get culture buildings may have crippled us in the short term.

MOTH
Mar 03, 2005, 12:11 PM
Our core cities need to each build culture in the way of at least Temple, Library, and Cathedral with Collosseum optional. Once we have Education then Universities are needed right away. They should also skim off a settler each time they near size 7.

As I mentioned above we 20 settlers just to ICS the land we have now. With just temples that's 40 cpt or enough to start catching up on France (but still not enough to double France's CPT. The Libraries that will follow will be enought to get to double France.

The important thing is that we need to leverage all the population that we can into getting mor cities and more population.

With the constraints on adding workers, cities can only pop rush as quickly as the surplus food allows, so its most important to gain more cities, whether thats through conquest or via building settlers.

RowAndLive
Mar 03, 2005, 02:39 PM
Well I must say I don't think I did to well. R&L I've left you a mess to deal with. None of the AI's would trade with me. I started a war with the Iroquois we may not be able to follow through with. My excessive pop rushing to get culture buildings may have crippled us in the short term.

I am a little confused by the Iro War. Was it just because of Sistine? Did you see some great opportunity? Certainly, the loss of 4 knights hurts severely.

I don't think that the pop-rushing of culture buildings is a serious problem ATM, and actually helped. :) I've been doing some analysis, and was just about to post saying that we seriously need some culture. There initially seemed to be a predictive correlation between the multiple of a score to it's previous score, and who would lead in the next 10 turns. Transfers were indicated by a shard turn of high and low multiple. That seems to have fallen aside now, so it probably won't come to much. There is still some good analysis in analyzing the multiples.

The size of the multiple of a new turn score compared to the previous turn score indicates the growth rate in a team's score. You can see in the score chart below that with that 1 turn-set exception for the Peanuts, this stays with a team in strings - periods where either something is going particularily well, or as a lasting effect of some single great achievement. You will notice that we had a good start after the first few turns of lower-significance data. The growth rate then went elsewhere, and appears to have just switched again.

I've taken this further, and applied a 6-turn trend line, which is shown in the second chart. There, you can see that we start at the highest score-growth rate, but it trends consistantly downward after that. The other teams, meanwhile, have mostly upward trends - note the Peanuts again. I think that this shows the effects of culture on score growth, versus conquest on score growth. Culture growth would be much more positive, as you aren't losing other score inputs during this period. With conquest, you get a net growth of culture, fast, as shown by the culture graph online, but you have associated costs in units lost which mitigates your growth. We've grown our culture well due to conquered cities, but have suffered from unit losses, and lack of culture building in the core, thus our rate of growth is decreasing.

The Peanuts started very slow, but are now growing quickly. I can't check their thread to verify, but I would guess that they have taken the land-grab and cultural growth path instead of conquest. They are now getting the constant benefit of cpt, which grows as they grow more buildings, and are gaing score from gold as well. I assert that we have less gold not only due to spending, but also due to maintenance costs, and unit losses. We also are not getting the cpt. Score growth due to conquest can be sudden and sharply up, but all attacks end up gassed at some point (note Team Tao's trend). cpt growth only decreases due to losses.

Am I advocating a switch to passive culture-building? No. I think that we need a surge of culture right now to help our growth rate, and need to get the ICS cities going as per MOTH's recent posts. Along with the core culture and POPULATION increase that he keeps putting up. Then we can get back to some "conquering for wonders" (think "bowling for dollars"), and get back on the path to 100k.

I'll get started tonight, and see how it goes.

RowAndLive
Mar 03, 2005, 02:41 PM
Here is the trend graph.
Now to analyze score acceleration...

MOTH
Mar 03, 2005, 03:21 PM
We are now making 238 cpt with 65 cities.
France is now making 257 cpt with 30 cities.
Babylon is now making 162 cpt with 24 cities.

By the End of R&L's turns we should be out pacing both of them.

MOTH
Mar 03, 2005, 04:44 PM
With the GOTM40 results our team now boasts #s 32, 33, and 67 in the global player rankings. Durkz will continue to move up the rankings as he gets more completed games, but Ms rrau and me won't see much movement. I have no idea how you can play to a domination win in 8 hours though... I have a lot to learn about war mongering still....

go ahead durkz, here's your chance for more spam posts.... :)

jb1964
Mar 03, 2005, 04:57 PM
Good analysis but I couldn't follow the graphs as many of the lines look to be the same color. The # of cities vs cpt is an excellent datapoint.

Mistfit
Mar 03, 2005, 05:09 PM
With the GOTM40 results our team now boasts #s 32, 33, and 67

Yeah but you will have to watch out because I'm moving up quickly behind you and rrau!

Off Topic I know but I couldn't resist. Looking good here I'm having so much fun following all of the teams that I know people in and comparing the playing styles!

More off topic @ MOTH:
In GOTM39 how did you not trip the conquest win at year 1400AD? Did you have an opponents settler trapped on a mountain or something? I notice that there were no AI cities around
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Moth.jpg

Durkz
Mar 03, 2005, 06:00 PM
Gj with the Gotm 39 MOTH 76 hours to play a game :crazyeye: that is some MM . my game lasted 6 hours (no MM at all :blush: ) 13 time more shorter than yours.
I didnt played Cotm09 but i will play gotm40 [didnt started it yet was too busy because of school (hey im only 18 :) ) but i will play it WITH MM (i learned a lot about MM from you MOTH )

beware Babs and french now have Cavalary
but we will be able to produce cavalary soon as we capture salamanca. by the time we are going to attack france they will have Riflemen to defend so arty would be good build now.

City specialization:

I think that we should set some cities to build ONLY units and set some tou build culture and when we build all the the culture buildings we want in that cities we should switch them to build units and set those cities which built units to build culture


Not in spam mood (trouble in school) :(

MOTH
Mar 03, 2005, 08:49 PM
More off topic @ MOTH:
In GOTM39 how did you not trip the conquest win at year 1400AD? Did you have an opponents settler trapped on a mountain or something? I notice that there were no AI cities around
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Moth.jpg

You didn't look close enough near the old Cartheginian capitol of Sogut. There are still 2 civs alive there with a total of 3 tiles. Arabia and Japan were both rude enough to declare war on me in the early game. So, I decided to keep them in cages for the rest of the game giving me war-happiness (my 9th and 10th luxuries). I was going to keep America alive too but China killed them off. They tried to kill of Japan too, but I kicked them out of my territory. I was also using them to try and slowly farm leaders but it didn't work.

If you look at the event list you will see that Japan even captured one of my cities near the end of the game when I got sloppy.

rrau
Mar 04, 2005, 04:05 PM
Nice graphs. *cringes at the thought of all the math to do them*

I'm gone to the Caribbean until March 12th, so skip me until then http://smilies.sofrayt.com/fsc/camera2.gif

MOTH
Mar 06, 2005, 09:09 PM
Hey boss, how is it going. Last week I sent a message off to the GOTM staff about a possible exploit. Basically a way to knock a distant AI into high war weariness in no time. Of course if you've already started the dogpile on France then we will have to wait for the next dogpile to try this out. Here's the message and reply.

Hi GOTM guys,
I have a question on a potential exploit and wanted to know if it is legit.

In SGOTM6 I was about to propose the following under-handed trick to my teammates and thought I should clear it first. We have a civ that is very powerful and we are planning to engineer a dogpile on them to soften them up prior to our invasion.

Possible Exploit: Quickly knock them into high war weariness by:
1. giving them several small towns (size 1 or 2 with at least 10 culture due to a temple)
2. declaring war
3. recapturing all of the towns immediately.

I consider it an exploit because the AI would never gift a city away for this purpose. The negative for this are:
1. there will be a minimal flip risk for a long time.
2. I will need to rebuild the temple after re-capture.

So, is this legal?

Thanks for asking first. :)

I don't have a problem with this tactic. We'll see what the reaction is from the other teams when they see it and I may then change my mind for future games.

jb1964
Mar 07, 2005, 07:50 AM
Good morning Moth,

I think we have the same schedule... come into work, get coffee, check forum, get back to work, repeat seveal times..... :)

How does it help us to gift them a city and then capture it back? I imagine this gives us "participation" bonus points from the other civs we pull into the dog pile.

If we recapture a size 1 city we'll just get to rebuild it. If a size 2 we at least save on the cost of a settler.

MOTH
Mar 07, 2005, 08:03 AM
I'm on the forums too much instead of working. But I'm a manager and don't do much real work anyways.

I'm fairly certain we will be able to recapture even a size 1 town if we have 10+ culture.

The main idea behind gifting them several cities and re-capturing is that it will through the AI into advanced war weariness. I forget the exact numbers, but every city lost is a few points of war weariness. When our MA's all expire we should be able to get peace with them and maybe even a few cities or techs in the peace deal. We can then wait 20 turns and try it again but possibly with a forward base to do some real damage to their real cities.

jb1964
Mar 07, 2005, 08:27 AM
I'm on the forums too much instead of working. But I'm a manager and don't do much real work anyways.
Same

The main idea behind gifting them several cities and re-capturing is that it will throw the AI into advanced war weariness. This is evil. I assume France is a Republic at this time.

Well, time for another meeting. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

RowAndLive
Mar 07, 2005, 01:50 PM
MOTH - that is interesting, and I'll have to see if I can find a place to implement it. Obviously, I'm not done yet - my pertpetual problem. Will see how far I can get tonight & post, just to keep it moving.

Weariness trumps gaming - skip. :sad:

RowAndLive
Mar 07, 2005, 09:50 PM
Weariness trumps gaming - skip. :sad:

jb1964
Mar 08, 2005, 07:34 AM
- Roster -
Durkz - UP
MOTH - Should play next
rrau - Should return from cruise w/ sunburn and hangover (Jealousy is a horrible thing)
jb1964 - Didn't just play
Elmarae - Just played
RowAndLive - Skip

MOTH
Mar 08, 2005, 08:23 AM
Ok then,
Durkz is up and I'm on deck. Depending on how quickly this gets to me I might request a skip or a swap or maybe just a short turnset. Perhaps for a while we should do 5-10 turn sets instead of the strict 10 turns.

We've been quiet for a while, so here are a bunch of things to consider and discuss in the next few days before it gets to be my turn.

First a recap what are current concerns and priorities are:
1. Deal with Iroqoius War (see #2 below about Great Library).

2. Finish off China as time allows.

3. Siphon off a settler each time any city is about to either reach size 6 or 7 or stop growing.

4. Keep an eye on the prize and keep rushing (or short rushing) culture every time we have the population available.

5. We have a 9 turn Luxury deal with France now, but then Instigate a dogpile on them.

Now some analysis and things that haven't been said in a while:

1. Team Peanut has just about exactly matched our culture curve. They are going to be our real competition. They have a higher score which means more happy people. We need to keep getting settlers and we need to keep conquering cities as well.

2. The Great Library: We must not aquire Education prior to us capturing the Gret Library. This is likely to raise the elevator quite a way through the Middle Ages. Perhaps we even want to wait to capture Salamanca until it looks like a couple of AIs are deep into the IA.

3. As I think about my evil plan to get France into war-weariness I am on the fence about whether we should do this. Lets say we use 5 cities for this. Each has to have a temple and at least 10 culture so we can recapture them. This means that we will lose 10 cpt for the 10 turns it takes to rebuild/rush the replacement temple = 100 culture lost. Now if this lets us get 1 or 2 size 1(or 2) French cities in 20 turns after our MA's expire then we will start gaining +2 or +4 cpt after about 50 turns (we have to build a defender first). So, then its 70 or 55 more turns until best time break-even. We currently have 6667 culture gaining 238 cpt. In 50 turns we could be at 500+ cpt, so 100 culture is not much in the long term. I more want to try it to see how well it works, but if we don't do it here then I will try my evil plans in GOTM41 instead. Which brings us to...

4. England and our happiness issues. Perhaps this is the country with which to pull this evil trick. We have a 6 turn deal with England where we are trading Spices and 17 GPT for Wool. England also had declared war on us way back when, which means we get war happiness when a new war is declared. The GPT is just going to keep going up. I say that in 6 turns we should give up our trade for Wool and declare war on England instead. The War Happiness will even affect cities that are not connected to our road network. If we are going to knock someone into war weariness shouldn't it be our ancient nemisis? If we are taking away our Spice trade at the same time then they might run into serious happiness issues and be crippled.
Alternate Idea on dogpile: Pull France into war against England and hope England can buy a dogpile. We would get to keep our Lux deal with France this way.
Alternate Idea #2: Start trashing our MA rep and buy MA's and then break deals. We can get the entire North at war with each other.

5. Should we give up our warrior farms? MI are not going to be very useful for much longer and it is a long way before they can be upgraded to Guerillas.

Elmarae
Mar 08, 2005, 02:10 PM
1. The Iroq war was started because of the Sistine Chapel and I thought I could gain it in my turnsets. I didn't count on India ejecting me from their territory first turn I entered it which put me back a turn.

2. China should be easy to eliminate.

3. Agreed

4. We can also do a psuedo cash rush too. Build a warrior for 10 shields, upgrade it for 60g, disband it for 10 shields. Perhaps the best way to handle that is any ICS city that has build Temple, Cath, Lib should be unattached from the road network and set to build Warriors, then use galleys to transport them to the nearest connected barracks and back to cities that need them. Getting Leonardo's only strengthens this method, Sun Tzu's puts a barracks in every city. France has to become ours.

5. :hammer: France :p

Analysis:

1. Agreed

2. Got it. No Education. Though that means no Universities for a while. May be counter productive. :p

3. 3 MI = 1 Temple. :)

4. I'm not sure on whether it would be beneficial. I think we should just ship a load of troops to France and knock on her door.

5. Warrior + 60g = MI. 1 MI = 10 shields.

MOTH
Mar 09, 2005, 08:04 AM
Durkz, are you out there? I might be able to play this evening, about 10 hours from the time of this post. That's about 44 hours since R&L posted his skip. I'll post a got it then unless Durkz pops in first.

jb1964
Mar 09, 2005, 10:37 AM
Our first order effect will be settlers and short/rushing culture.

Lets get China sooner rather than later to start ICS'ing their land.

How about we build what culture we can in the warrior farms, hooking them to the network if needed, and then we can detach them later if needed. Elmarae's warrior/MI cash rush is interesting and seems viable if we have the cash on hand.

The induction or WW, on England or France, is too interesting an idea not to execute. However, rather than bank on 10 culture can we just make size 2 cities?

Are we allowed to look at other teams uploads as long as we have passed that date?

RowAndLive
Mar 09, 2005, 02:57 PM
Are we allowed to look at other teams uploads as long as we have passed that date?

NO! Expressly forbidden! This would tell us how they did earlier things, or when, and we would then KNOW their tactic instead of just guessing it. It would also allow us to correlate big score jumps with certain activity, and certainly would reveal any discussions that they had on a win strategy.

The price for this would be dismissal from the current game, and possible suspension from the next game(s).

Thanks for asking! :D

Durkz
Mar 09, 2005, 03:10 PM
sorry i havent been on lately im having some school problems :(

please skip me

MOTH
Mar 09, 2005, 03:27 PM
ok, I've got it. I will play at least some turns tonight after the baby goes to bed.

MOTH
Mar 09, 2005, 11:11 PM
Part 1:

Pre-flight: Check for cheap pop-rushes. Some MM changes.

ibt - Iroqs capture 2 cats. They have a ROP with India so I will see if we can change that. Iroq's lose a Knight attacking a GS and then kill a 2nd GS.

We build: 2 cathedrals and 1 temple. Our GPT is now negative due to building maintenence. We can't afford cathedrals in corrupt cities, so I change a few buils.

460ad(1)- Our GPT is now negative due to building maintenence. We can't afford cathedrals in corrupt cities, so I change a few builds. I try to buy a MA vs Iroqs and even sell surplus lux and no-one will do it. Our rep is trashed :( The only thing we still have is ROP rep.

Declar war on China. Capture a few workers right away and march on Beijing. Kill a few wandering units. Break the easy ship line in Iroq territory and kill the redlined Knight that captured our Cats. Recapture the cats and Ping an archer.

ibt - India demands we get out, so we take the recaptured cats and move back. Our repositoned cats help defend a vet GS and he first promotes to Elite and then gets a Great Leader. :) One more Archer makes the GS retreat and the leader is lost and the cats recaptured. :( The Chinese kill a vet GS.

We build: 2 Library, 4 Temple, 1 Cathedral

470ad(2) - We kill a wandering Iroq pike and get a great leader! He will build another Army. Attack on Beijing we kill 4 spears and a longbox and lose 1 elite MI - 5 Resisters. Move to disconnect Iroq Iron.

ibt - Iroq's lose a warrior to our cats and GS and then a bow kills our GS and recaptures Cats. Several Iroq units are closing in on a town.

We build: 4 Library, 1 Settler, 3 Temple

480ad(3) - Kill some Chinese, lose a MI. Pillage Iroq Iron.

ibt - Resistence in Beijing ends. We build nothing.

490ad(4) - We are back on positive gpt as our core cities have grown.

ibt - 4 Iroq die attacking Matsuyama but we end up with all units redlined. Iroq galley along our South coast.
We build: Longbow, Library, Temple.

500ad(5) - Pillage a cow next to Salamanca.

ibt - lose 2 slaves cause I wasn't paying attention. Iroq's almost capture Matsuyama with Knights.

We build: Library.

Wonder Builds French are starting Smiths. Englis are starting Copernicus,

510ad(6) Capture Shanghai with 5 resisters.

That's it for now. I'll post this and try to pick up the rest tomorrow.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/RowAndLive_SG006_AD0510_01.SAV

Firaxis score: 1560
Jason score: 531

MOTH
Mar 10, 2005, 10:35 PM
Part 2:

To repeat: Wonder Builds French are starting Smiths. English are starting Copernicus.

So, the AIs are nearing the end of the MA and could be entering the IA any time.

510ad(6) Capture Shanghai with 5 resisters.

IBT - Wool Deal with England expires. They don't want to renew so I will declare war on them.

We build: Library, Galley, 2 Settler, Temple

We learn Theology.

French start Copernicus.

520ad(7) Pillage near Salamanca

ibt - The Iroq's will talk and give up 1 size 1 city for peace. I hold for now.

We Build: Temple, Knight

530ad(8) Iroqs have a large force at Matsuyama so I give it to England. Pillage near Salamanca

ibt - Many Iroq's are moving to our area. Resistence in Shanghai ends.

We build: 2 Knight, 2 Temple, Warrior, Cathedral

540ad(9) Pillage near Salamanca

ibt - wines deal expires. 5 Iroq Knights and other slow movers approaching Tokyo.

We build: 2 Library, 2 Knights, Temple

Babylon and English are building Smith's.

550ad(10) Pillage near Salamanca. Kill 2 Spears in Tsingtao. Kill 2 Iroq Knights and make 1 retreat but redline our understrength Army.

There is only 1 more tile to Pillage near Salamanca and then they can't trade anymore. I don't see any horses in their Terriroty so this should stop the Knight production. I made zero progress against the Iroq's other than Pillaging. They are still willing to give up a city or 2. I think we are going to have to sue for peace as soon as we pillage that last tile.

I did Capture 2 of the Chinese cities and the 3rd is just around the corner. The 4th should be easy, but the 5th might be tough, but we've got a MI and a GS ready to cross the river and then can attack.

I didn't start a war with either FRance or England yet. I'm not sure if we will be able to buy a dogpile. We have only a few cities with just temples and 10+ culture.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/RowAndLive_SG006_AD0550_01.SAV

Firaxis score: 1656
Jason score: 563

Rotation:
rrau - fun in the sun
jb1964 - UP
Elmarae - on deck
RowAndLive - skipped
Durkz - skipped
MOTH - just played

jb1964
Mar 11, 2005, 07:19 AM
Yikes, I'm up again already? OK, looks like me Saturday morning is planned out for me.

MOTH
Mar 11, 2005, 07:51 AM
Thoughts on my turnset and where to go next.
1. Iroqouis: Our Amry can pillage the last road into Salamanca next turn. Do this first so that we hurt Iroq's ability to trade. They've got a big army approaching in Tokyo. They don't have enough fast movers to take it this turn. I think we will have to get peace with them as soon as the Pillage is done.
2. We were running close to break-even on the economy with 0% Science. Many of our core cities were at size 2, 3, or 4 making settlers. I had to grow them back up to keep the economy running. I think that the only culture we can afford in corrupt cities is the Temple and Library. After that we can Settlers (which should be ready when pop hits 3 unless we are low food). If we are at low food then maybe we should consider wealth.
3. We had very little fast Military in the East. I got that Army and had to wait to fill it with Knights. Even now it only has 2 Knights. Didn't have huge amounts in the West either so China was slow to get in position and they picked off a few units but no they are gassed.
4. The flip risk was initially in the 2-3% range for the Chinese cities. Once the resistence had ended I pop-rushed a Library. I also pop rushed a temple at Beijing. Shanghai should be able to pop-rush one after the Library.
5. Buying people into a dogpile on France and/or England. Its not going to happen until we have something to sell. I say that as soon as we can position Military to re-capture 2 or 3 gifted English cities we should declare war and stay at war for a while. I say 2 or 3 because that's all we have that only have a temple and 10+ culture. I gifted Matsuyama to them during my turn set as we were going to lose it, so that is one of the ones we can re-capture.
6. The 2 cities near Carthage now have a temple and culture and will soon have a warrior each. They will also reach size 2 soon, so we can also poprush something soon.

MOTH
Mar 11, 2005, 08:11 AM
Oh yeah, the victory condition: It looks like I very slightly expanded our lead over team Peanut. Keep pop-rushing in the new towns.

We are almost at 10K culture and at 324cpt. We are now almost double the cpt of Babylon and almost matching the cpt of France. We are going to have to take down France at some point as I don't see us doubleing France's CPT soon enough to get to 100K before France gets to 50K.

RowAndLive
Mar 11, 2005, 12:17 PM
Unclear on status of England - DoW for end of wool deal, but then gave them a city, and said that you didn't declare on them. Please clarify.

AFA lead over the Peanuts - the victory condition is fastest 100K, correct? That is good, because on score, our curve is quickly taking us from first to worst.

MOTH
Mar 11, 2005, 02:11 PM
Sorry, I was planning on DOW (note the "will declare") but then couldn't find cities to give them that I could quickly recapture. I eventually gave them a city that would have fallen to 6 Iroq knights.

Yes, fastest 100K. I figure that Peanuts must have a more widely spaced core thus bigger cities. If they get much ahead of us at any point it will be tough to catch them.

In about 30 turns we will start producing settlers from our corrupt cities that already have a temple and library to fuel the expansion.

I think our next victims should be the Indians. We can concentrate our forces on wiping them out and still be in position to switch to back to the Iroq's and Great Library. In the West we can prepare for taking on the Mongols.

jb1964
Mar 11, 2005, 05:05 PM
@RowAndLive (Ben Hur reference I assume)

If you want the next 10 turns feel free. If you don't grab by Saturday morning (EST) then I'll move out on this.

Elmarae
Mar 12, 2005, 06:04 AM
So from now on we only do a Temple and Library in the corrupt cities?

Also I'm next in the roster, did you mean for me to take it jb? Did you want to swap.

I started a test game to try out the gift a city and recapture it. It doesn't need to have 10 culture, just a pop of 2. So we could use a settler and a worker, settle a city, add a worker. Then gift the city to England and recapture it. Then progress normally. That way we only lose a turn of production. Not 20 or so turns building a temple twice.

RowAndLive
Mar 12, 2005, 08:40 AM
I'll wait, but thanks for the offer. I will defeinitely take it if I come up during this week.

jb1964
Mar 12, 2005, 04:13 PM
Elmarae, I noticed the "skip" notes but saw that RowAndLive was active so I made him the offer. If you can take this then please do. Saturday has turned out to be very busy for me.

rrau
Mar 13, 2005, 01:04 AM
I'm back from St. Kitts. +sunburn; -hangover.;)

Elmarae
Mar 13, 2005, 06:05 AM
Welcome back rrau. If you want to jump in and take your spot that was just skipped be more than welcome to it. I'm a little pressed for time for the next day or so. It seems jb is as well.

rrau
Mar 13, 2005, 12:56 PM
Ok, got it...

rrau
Mar 13, 2005, 11:13 PM
>>>THE SAVE<<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/RowAndLive_SG006_AD0650_01.SAV)

preflight (550ad)

looks good

ibt:

a reg pike on mountain defeated an attacking knight and retreated one, but didn't get promoted.
Shanghai library => temple (pop rushed it to completion)
Mohacs knight => setter
Augustodurum settler => settler and MM for 5 food (this is a 4 turn 4.5 - 6.5 settler factory, right?)
Hangchow library => settler
Noviomagus library => worker (needs to mine the bonus grasslands here)
Agedinicum temple => library (and looks like the workers have a road to the city now)
New Lugdunum temple => library
Babs are building Copernicus's

turn 1 (560ad)

Killed a 1 hp knight with an elite mace, no leader
Pillaged last road into Salamanca
Made peace with Iroquois. Received: Gewauga, Caughnawaga, Goigouen, WM and 35g. I left the Iroquois 1g in their treasury - wasn't I generous?
While Gewauga is a one tile island, it's close to the French and could be used as a staging area.
Captured Tsintao (Chinese) => library

ibt:

Iroquois demanded removal of our troops
We built some things, but I didn't note them
Karachi (Indian) flips to us [party]

turn 2 (570ad)

Whipped temple in New Gergovia
Starting to position troops to attack India
Failed to take Macao, but only 1 spear remains

turn 3 (580ad)

Found New Cataractonium => temple
Attack Tatung and rrau's Champion wins, generates a leader and captures the city :) .
I gambled and attacked the remaining spear in Macao (across a river) with 2/5*Elite and win and capture Macao.
I can't find anymore Chinese cities, but they are still alive - must have a settler somewhere. I'll see if they plant somewhere.
Whip temple in Augustodurum
Whip Library in Ningpo

ibt:

China wants peace - nope
We get a notice we can build the Pentagon

turn 4 (590ad)

Found the remaining Chinese city - looks like they founded between 2 french cities

turn 5 (600ad)

Rushed a couple libraries

ibt:

Babylon and Carthage signed peace treaty

turn 6 (610ad)

found New Lapurdum
moving troops
shipped 2 elite units on their way to the last Chinese city

turn 7 (620ad)

Found New Ratae Coritanorum => temple

turn 8 (630ad)

whipped a couple libraries.

turn 9 (640ad)

found New Tolosa
found New Lindum

turn 10 (650ad)

unloaded 4 units next to Paoting (last Chinese city)


notes:

we went from having an average military compared to India to having a strong military

The settler just S of Kyoto I was heading towards the furs by Shimonoseki

There's a couple settlers in former Chinese lands (they just stepped off a galley). The one directly S of Chengdu is in place to settle, the one right next to Nanking, I was thinking of sending just E of Shanghai's wheat.

There's a couple others that I hadn't selected a spot for yet and are just generally heading towards the former Chinese lands.

I know it's slow this way, but I wanted to let our core grow so I didn't rush the libraries there. I want them to be fairly productive at spitting out troops when we go back to war.


Culture: 13278
CPT: 391

[edit] after the current catapults build, I don't want to build anymore. We need settlers and attack units and culture buildings and that's it. I wouldn't even build a whole lot of harbors in the fishing villages due to our financial situation.

MOTH
Mar 14, 2005, 09:43 AM
Good turnset. It looks like we have once again slightly advanced our culture lead on the Peanuts. More and more of our existing culture buildings are also going to start doubling as well.

There is no reason to finish the catapults if we don't need them. Turn them into a settler if there will be enough food or an attack unit of some sort if there isn't.

I agree on your point about harbors and other expenses.

A few notes from looking that the save with CrpViewer:

It looks like France went through a 3 turn Anarchy about 5 or 6 turns ago as their culture growth paused for those turns. This could have been their switch to Democracy. So, a war with them that can through them into War Weariness pretty quickly and they will switch Governments. Then with peace we will get another Government Switch. This can keep them soft while we get ready to invade them and wipe them out. I don't think there is anyway we can double their culture growth and hit 100K before they hit 50K, so we will definately have to plan to eliminate them.

As for Babylon, it looks like we are about doubling their cpt right now, so we should reach 100K before they reach 50K as long as we keep building culture.

I also don't think the core should be pop-rushing buildings outright. Sometimes we can pop-rush one or 2 citizens, but only if it doesn't hurt production too much. Those pop points are better spent as new settlers to get more culture.

Elmarae
Mar 15, 2005, 12:11 AM
Who is up now? JB do you still need a skip? I'm up in another SG so it won't be for another 24hours before I'll want to play this one at the most.

jb1964
Mar 15, 2005, 08:25 AM
I'll take it from this point. I have enough time in the next two days to get through this.

RowAndLive
Mar 15, 2005, 08:31 AM
Roster -
rrau - just played
jb1964 - UP
Elmarae - on deck
RowAndLive -
Durkz -
MOTH -

MOTH
Mar 15, 2005, 02:58 PM
Anyone have time to write up a spoiler? Do we know gunpowder yet? These are the rules for the first spoiler:

Rules for Posting in and Viewing this thread

1. Your team must have learned Gunpowder.
2. You must have contact with all rival Civilizations.
3. Full world map is not necessary, around 90% of available land must be known. (Use your judgement).
3. A nominated team member must have posted a summary of the teams game to the limit of this spoiler.
5. Discussion is permitted up to and including the advent of Cavalry.
6. No discussion of the Industrial Age is permitted. Particularly, discussions about the location of coal and any government changes will be frowned upon.

REMEMBER: Wait until your teams' summary has been posted before reading or posting in this thread yourself.

Discussion points of interest to me include:-
1. Which Civs were strongest and how will it affect the game later.
2. Which wonders are most important and any attempts to own them.
3. Overall Strategy to win the game.

rrau
Mar 15, 2005, 10:21 PM
We need to stay on the culture push. I think we need to capture the Great Library and get some uni's built. Team Peanut's culture graph slope just steepened.

jb1964
Mar 16, 2005, 12:13 AM
Turn 0 – 650 AD
All looks good. I just hope the three Chinese units loitering in the jungle stay there.
Cats changed to settlers.
We have 5 luxuries hooked up and we have wool w/i our boarders.
Hmmm, we have a French galley sailing down the canal between our homeland and the former Japanese lands and both areas are devoid of units.
Move a few forted units towards the Indian boarder.

Most of the way through my first turn, after making many brilliant moves, the power went out for the past two+ hours. Autosave now set for every two minutes.

IBT: Two Chinese LB’s die attacking our units and a horse runs past us, through the city and up to the hills. Coward.
Kahn ejects a snooping MI.

Turn 1 – 660 AD
Most build orders are for troops as our forces are thin. Building culture where possible.
We kill four spears in Paoting and there are still more to defend.
We have to back out some of our troops from Indian territory (boarder expo) to declare.
DOW – One pike in Lahore killed by knight army. Move in MI’s and cats.

We have some workers irrigating grasslands!?! We’re still in Despotism so this buys us nothing. Am I missing something here?

There's a couple settlers in former Chinese lands (they just stepped off a galley). The one directly S of Chengdu is in place to settle, the one right next to Nanking, I was thinking of sending just E of Shanghai's wheat.

Settler S of Chengdu founds New Nemausus > temple. Second settler sent two tiles SE of Nanking to settle on a desert tile. This packs it in a little closer and upgrades the tile.

IBT: War elephant takes a cat shot and then is killed by an MI. Chinese horse comes out of the hills to kill our elite GS.
Indians are running a galley at some undefended cities. We’ll have three knights there next turn.

Turn 2 – 670 AD
Cats do nothing. Army goes solidly yellow against a spear.
Iroq Killer takes the Lahor (-1hp)
We take Lahor w/ a knight retreat (1/4) and a kill (3/4).

We attack Paoting again taking out another spear and revealing another. All our units there are beat up. We make peace w/ Mao and get Gunpowder.

We found New Curovernum > temple.

IBT: The Vikes are moving in towards some of our “peace” towns, Chinan and Macao. We’ll be at it w/ them soon.
India sends four War Elephants at us and loses one. We lose two MI’s.
China joins the Iroquois against Carthage.

Turn 3 – 680 AD
Kyoto coliseum > market

Kill off the three remaining WE’s.
Lahore whips a library.
We take Jaipur w/ 3 knights.

IBT: Well, the Vikings just brought a SoD into our territory and landed troops on our formerly Chinese shores.
The Indian galley moves off.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SGOTM750AD.jpg

Turn 4 – 690 AD
We tell ‘em to leave and they declare.
Two MI’s take care of the horse and archer in the North.
We run the knight and MI out of Macao to kill two Zerks and are able to get the pike in Chinan onto a galley. We gift the two cities to the French and disband three workers. I check if France will go for an alliance against the Vikes but there’s no deal to be had even if we really wanted one.
We’ll need to be very careful not to leave coastal towns undefended w/ Zerks on the water.

Found New Glanum and New Isca > temples

Turn 5 – 700 AD
Moving troops around and healing our armies.
Lahore whips a temple. Bangalor whips a library.

IBT: Viking ships running around.

Turn 6 – 710 AD
The Indians are going to overrun Goigouen so I gift it to the French.
Found New Segusio.
Found New Rutupiae
Found New Glevum on ring 5 outside of Kyoto.

IBT:
A Viking ship runs down our galley trying to deliver an MI to the one tile city.
Mongols run their workers back from the boarder. Bad sign?

Turn 7 – 720 AD
I sold the Market in Tsingtao as it wasn’t going to generate any cash.
RNG is with me. Attacking pikes in Delhi is about a 50/50 proposition but we win 4 in a row, take out a LB and capture the city.

We buy four workers off of Hannibal for WM and 475g.

IBT: Surprise, surprise, surprise… France joins the war with Carthage against the Chinese! :crazyeye:

Turn 8 – 730 AD
Move forces towards Bombay.

IBT: A single War Elephant attacks and falls to a vet knight.

Turn 9 – 740 AD
We attack a Viking galley w/ two of ours and lose one but send that darn thing to the bottom. Ha!

IBT: I left this too long while I went to a NCAA Bball event and the stinking thing hung on me. Ya really need to close this out if you’re going to leave it for any length of time.

Turn 10 – 750 AD
Took Bombay. Got to admit that I’m getting the better of the RNG.

Notes: Much whipping except in core cities where we need higher spt to pump units.

The Save... (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm6/RowAndLive_SG006_AD0750_01.SAV)

Date submitted: 2005-03-15
Game date: 750 AD
Firaxis score: 2177
Jason score: 741

MOTH
Mar 16, 2005, 09:47 AM
I was looking at corruption and a few of the big cities that would benefit the most from courthouses. The following cities should have a gain of at least 2 gpt (net gain after maintenence). They may also gain a shield or 2 from waste.
46-55% corrupt losing 3 or more gpt to corruption:
Curovernum, Burdigala, Mohacs, Satsuma, Lezoux, Gregovia, Glevum, Kagoshima, Nemausus, Isca, Nagoya
70-75% corrupt losing 4 or more gpt to corruption:
Tolosa, Xinjian, Nara.

And since Elmarae might be shy about pop-rushing this time around, here is a guide to some pop-rushes in fully corrupt towns:
The 95% corrupt towns are not going to be able to build anything on their own and courthouses won't help much. These each have between 2 and 7 population and should pop-rush 20 shields when possible. Even pop-rushing a settler can work in some of these cities. Organized by the turn they should get to a multiple of 10 shields. Also, we should rush some of these on turn 0 even with a waste of shields as these are coming from high population towns and it will be worth it to get these now instead of waiting up to 17 more turns. There are also a couple of workers, a musket, and a walls being built that we might be able to change to settlers or something else useful.

Turn 0 or 10 (or maybe even 1): Beijing 5 (settler), Canton 4 (settler), Caughnawaga 3 (temple with some waste), New Tolosa 3, New Lindum 4, Bombay 7 (musket?), Fukushima 7 (Library), Hangchow 6 (settler), New Monguntiacum 3 (temple), Delhi 6, Shanghai 6 (settler),
Turn 1: Agedincum 5, Eboraum (no roads) 3, New Nemausus 2,
Turn 2: Kaifeng 6 (settler), New Curovernum 5,
Turn 3: Nora 2, Rusaddir 4, Jaipur 5, Shantung 3 (worker, but could maybe be settler?), Shimonoseki 5 (settler), Tientsin 3 (worker, but could maybe be settler?),
Turn 4: New Glanum 4, Net Cataractonium 3 (worker, but could maybe be settler?), New Isca 4,
Turn 5:
Turn 6: Bangalore 2, New Rutupiae 3,
Turn 7: Ise 3 (settler if grown to size 4), Nanking 2, Tatung 4, Tsingtao 4 (walls????),
Turn 8: New Ratae 3,
Turn 9: Anyang 3, Agedincum (no roads) 4, Segusio 3 (settler if grown),

Elmarae
Mar 16, 2005, 09:49 AM
Looks good, we are running really close to Peanut's team in culture. Really need to build more cities I think... Getting the Pyramids should be a high priority, faster pop means more pop rushing.

Ok got it.

MOTH
Mar 16, 2005, 10:49 AM
I think the upoming war mongering priorities are:

1. Great Library to catch up on tech and build Cav's.

2. Paris with all its yummy wonders.

3. Kill France so we don't have to be 2x France's culture.

jb1964
Mar 16, 2005, 12:50 PM
From the pop 1 cities w/ 1spt workers are a good investment. We'll never, ever get to our unit allotment so build them when convenient.

I started the wall in the one city as I didn't know which way to go w/ it. And if it got lost in the shuffle and actually built then we would have better defense on a coastal town at no cost.

If there's a musket being built then that was a mistake. Knights, culture, workers and settlers. And I might have gone for a courthouse or two.

W/ Education already discovered will we still see a benefit from the GL?

jb1964
Mar 16, 2005, 12:55 PM
BTW, the Vikings scare me. If you don't catch those Zerks in the open they'll run through you like grain through a goose. I would like to get them off our backs so we can turn to taking all the French cities that are within easy striking distance and sending them into WW.

If France hasn't already entered their GA they should shortly w/ their skirmish against China.

Also BTW, what save did Elmarae d/l? I didn't see one attached and we're still at 750AD on the culture chart. Moth, did you play?