Difficulty = Deity
Civilization = Random
Map = Total Mystery
Barbs = Roaming
World Size = Small


Signed up:
LKendter
open slot
open slot
open slot
open slot

Remember, up to 20 turns per round. Not much should be happening - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

The goal is to try for 25K win. I think it shouldn't be too hard with deity.

I was just thinking the same thing. One thing to consider is making sure to start with Domestication so we can see where the food is. Also sci leaders are fairer in RandR, given the large number of techs (reduces the randomness somewhat). I'd enjoy playing with you.

I'd like to join. Playing OCC gives more experience with certain RaR aspects, without the necessity of large empire management.

Signed up:
LKendter
Bezhukov
Bed_head7
open slot
open slot

Also sci leaders are fairer in RandR
Sorry, but I shut off SL when I play.

Curious as to why?

With the quantity of techs in RandR, the std. dev. is pretty low.

Sign me up. Doesn't sound like too time-consuming.

Signed up:
LKendter
Bezhukov
Bed_head7
Doc Tsiolkovski
open slot

:bump:

If no one else by tomorrow morning, I will start with 4 players. I would prefer to get 5.

I will happily take the last spot.

LKendter
Bezhukov
Bed_head7
Doc Tsiolkovski
Grs

Staring in a short while...

This is being played on RaR 1.01.

I swapped over to 60% water Pangaea with small map. I didn't like the original idea with an OCC.


3900 BC
Istanbul is formed along the coast, on a river, with several floodplains, several hills, and a camel.


3850 BC
We already meet Spain. I give them Domestication and Pottery for Ritualism, Boat Building and $16.


3800 BC
We pop a hut and simply get $25.


3550 BC
I pop another hut and get useless maps.


3450 BC
I meet up with Egypt with Spain just one turn behind me.
Ritualism goes to Egypt for Warfare and $41. Domestication and Boat Building get us Cultivation and $2/turn.
Cultivation and $8 goes to Spain for Mysticism.
Mysticism, Pottery and $55 go to Egypt for Masonry.
I pop the hut in the area and get worthless maps again.


3350 BC
I pop another hut and map overload continues. Expansionist has sucked so far.


3250 BC
I continue to pop huts and get Fermentation for a free tech. Even adding in fermentation we still can't get scrape mining.
I pop another one and we get a free tribe. :crazyeye:
The tribe will start the long walk home for merger.


3150 BC
I pop another hut with the tribe marching home and get a boring $25.


3050 BC
I ship Alphabet and Fermentation to Spain for Scrape Mining and $10. There are 2 iron sources near us. A colony might be possible in the future. I ship Alphabet, Fermentation and $73 to Egypt for Caste System.


3000 BC
Hut popping continues and we get $25 again.


2950 BC
Totally backwards Siam is met. I ship them Pottery to take away their $55.


2900 BC
I pop a hut and get Weaving. The nearby hills don't have any sheep. I actually can trade it to Egypt for The Wheel and $5.


2800 BC
(IT) The joy of floodplains hit as disease appears.


2710 BC
We get Sailing from a hut.


2630 BC
The tribe is finally merged with the capitol.

I ship Tibet Sailing and Caste System for $53 and 1 worker.


2430 BC
I establish some embassies.
I build an embassy with Siam. Tibet is size one, has a monument and shrine, building a wiseman, 1 luxury, and no resources.
I build an embassy with Spain. It has a shrine, is size 2, 1 luxury, building hanging gardens due in 46 turns and no resources.
I build an embassy with Egypt. Thebes is size 3, no luxuries or resources, building hanging gardens due in 44 turns.


2390 BC
(IT) A barb kills a guardsman in the capitol. I will have to waste time building another.


2350 BC
This is total RnG bull. Our 4 hp archer dies against the 2 hp barb.
(IT) A pop point is destroyed. I *HATE* RaR barbs.


==========================

Summary:
The early production boosters are completed. I am wasting time rebuilding military. I want 3 units this time.
The start of culture is a failure as NONE has been build. We need to start getting some culture to make 25K in time.

Dynasticism is due in 9 turns - revolt immediately. We need a better government to continue to grow the capitol.

Signed up:
LKendter
Bezhukov (currently playing)
Bed_head7 (on deck)
Doc Tsiolkovski
Grs


Remember 20 turns per round (not much will happen with just 1 city) - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

NOTE: This is a strict 1CC. We can't have another city for even a millisecond.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK91-2150BC.zip

I just realized after posting the save that I forget to reduce luxuries by 10%. Please fix that at the start of your turns.

As you started it in 1.01, do I need to install that? I have only 1.02 installed, and I just downloaded the patch to 1.03 beta.

No, 1.01 is only a biq file, everything is stored in the save.

Got it.

I've been playing the Inca game you gave up on - Crazy Horse and Hammy decided to help us out. Check the other thread.

On this one: nice start. Little unlucky with popping, but great trading. Are we religious? If not, we could time an Oracle build to get philo, then with the free philo tech, get all the way to Democracy and revolt then.

I'll check back in an hour for comments.

I've been playing the Inca game you gave up on - Crazy Horse and Hammy decided to help us out. Check the other thread.

:confused: What game are you talking about?

LK88 - thought I'd check it out for fun. Played a few turns and war broke out all over. Figured I'd give it a spin and see what happened. It is currently winnable, but I can't figure out how to get it uploaded.

LK88 - thought I'd check it out for fun. Played a few turns and war broke out all over. Figured I'd give it a spin and see what happened. It is currently winnable, but I can't figure out how to get it uploaded.

PLEASE DON'T. No final decision was made, and this is blatant spoiler information.

Well, it was pathetically hopeless if war didn't break out. And if you played from the last save, it might not have. Whatever.

I checked the save for this game. You are aware that founding cities on hills gives two shields in the city square? As well as helping with defense? If we'd founded on the hill, we'd have incense and iron in the 21. :sad:

Guess we'll make the best of it - gonna be an uphill climb...

This is doubly a problem because we do not have any one shield squares. To get the production boosters to kick in, we have to work two low food squares, which kills our growth. With a hill city, you can work one low food square to get to four shields, while maxing food on the others. Doc, your thoughts?

You are aware that founding cities on hills gives two shields in the city square?
I am now. Is that different from the base game? I thought hills were one shield settled.

Yes, it is different than the base game, because all hills produce an extra shield in RandR.
Makes a pretty huge difference.

Pls see my apology in your other thread. I did not see the post where you stipulated that you were waiting for all five. I thought the thread was dead. My bad.

Yes, it is different than the base game, because all hills produce an extra shield in RandR.
Makes a pretty huge difference.
The RaR learning curve continues.

As for the tile problems and shields I think it will improve a lot with a better government. Flood plains go to +4 food and growth won't be a problem.

OK, I'll take a crack at it.

Preflight: work river hill instead of forest to get extra commerce. Dyna in 8. Egypt and Spain both have Dyna already, will try to trade. Low lux by 10%, get 56g from Tibet for Fermentation.

2110BC: ranger dodges barb and meets French. Joanie up Myth and Slavery. Will not trade Myth for our whole econ.

IBT: Spain extorts 27g.

2070BC: Archer->Wiseman in 3, lux to zero. Buy Dyna for 135 from Joanie (she had traded Myth for it). Philo in 20 (AI will go for Bronze). Revolt, need one entertainer, growth in 4.

IBT: Spain settles at silks, taking incense.

1990BC: zzzz

IBT: Egypt extorts our 14g.

1950BC: zzzz

1870BC: We are a Monarchy. MM to finish Wiseman in one.

1830BC: Wiseman->Shrine in six, growing in 4. Great, AI’s have Bronze already. Philo in 13.

1770BC: zzzz

1750BC: zzz

1725BC: growth in one, MM for production.

1700BC: Notice governor isn’t on, or Shrine would have been produced.

1675BC: Shrine->Oracle in 27 (will go down on growth in 3 turns), we need Oracle badly – we are now down 5 techs, none of which are Philosophy. Fingers crossed. Philo in 7.

1650BC: CofL now out there.

1625BC:zzz

1600BC: Trade has been discovered. Philo in 4. We’re working the plains for faster growth – when we hit 8, we can switch to hill.

1550BC: we can trade with Spain. When they get riding, trade our Camel, should be able to get at least a lux, if not a tech.

1525BC: Philo in one – no one has it yet! Beads of sweat running down my brow…

1500BC: Philo comes in, and we’re first! :D Whew. I choose Classical Ed. We now have two monopoly techs. I’ll leave the wheeling and dealing up to Doc.

@Bezhukov - Please use something more descriptive then Osman of the Ottomans. For those of us who play multiple games it will get lost. Not to mention the risk of confusion with a different game.

MM to finish Wiseman in one.
Uh, that was a counselor you built. It decreases corruption. I don't think it will offer any help in the capitol.


I’ll leave the wheeling and dealing up to Doc.
Actually, it is Bed_head7 whom is up.

Signed up:
LKendter
Bezhukov
Bed_head7 (currently playing)
Doc Tsiolkovski (on deck)
Grs


Remember 20 turns per round (not much will happen with just 1 city) - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

NOTE: This is a strict 1CC. We can't have another city for even a millisecond.

:blush:

I guess we all have an RandR learning curve. Who knew Osman isn't scientific?
Were we given the Ottomans randomly? The COM trait is pretty much wasted on us.


We can disband the counselor at some point to short rush another improvement.

I got it. I wish we had traded Philo for BW, and then taken Construction as free tech so we could get spt up in the capital, but oh well. Or traded for CoL, and taken Demo. I don't know if we want that, though, as I know very little about RaR govs at this point. Then again, I could be completely wrong about techs, as I am still not sure what is all required for every tech.

@Bezhukov - Please use something more descriptive then Osman of the Ottomans. For those of us who play multiple games it will get lost. Not to mention the risk of confusion with a different game. Wow, I am amazed how you keep on finding your saves without using a different directory for each game - and that with so many games you play :eek:

1500 BC (0) -

Code of Laws, Aristocracy, and 10g from France for Philo.

Egypt gives Mathematics and 148g for Philo.

CoL, Philo, and Aristocracy (should have been Math, but in testing various scenarios I took the second best trade accidentally) for Slavery, Mythology, Bronze Working and 6g from Tibet.

Philosophy and 1g gets Trade from the Spanish.

Mathematics and 68g to Tibet for Construction. And then Trade and 80g gets us Civil Engineering.

Classical Education to France gets Polytheism and 165g.

Classical Education and 19g to Spain gets Monotheism.

The somewhat devalued Classical Education gets 120g from Egypt.

Finally, after giving a small 25g gift to Tibet, they give up all 173g they have for Classical Education and Polytheism.

I don't think I have ever done this much trading. In doing this, I noticed that they always offered 5/6 of what they were willing to pay. I don't remember seeing this before, but then again, I have never done so much trading. All in all, 11 techs and 429g for 2 techs. I must say, RaR is pretty cool.

Now, where to research? I was going to go for a gov tech, but the Oracle will finish before them, so opt for riding instead. I don't know AI research patterns, so hopefully this wasn't too bad a choice. I just wanted to see what a Camel Rider looks like.

After all of that, I feel like I already played my turns.

IT - Germans declare on Egypt. So I guess we ought to be looking for them over there.

1425 BC (3) - So riding wasn't a great choice after all. 80g to Egypt for Riding, then trade Riding to France for Naval Warfare and 36g. Start on Iron Working in 10, probably another bad choice, but the only other options that finish before the Oracle are Elephant Training and Poetry. Actually, with the mine finishing, we can't get anything before the Oracle without substantially slowing the completion, so I shut off research.

1275 BC (9) - We are beaten to the Oracle by one turn. We could not have gotten it faster, I am relatively positive, unfortunately. Switch to slave trade. I just wish I hadn't shut off research, but I guess the Tibetans semi-cascaded to Oracle. When I got the message they were building the Oracle, I checked, and after seeing it was highly unproductive, I didn't really worry about it.

1250 BC (10) - Finish Colossus. Start MoM, due in 7. This, of course, triggers the GA. Right, we are Commercial.

1175 BC (13) - Great, Currency learned. We might be in a bit of trouble with techs.

IT - Tibet demands 43g and gets it. And unfortunately, Germans finish Slave Trade. I wanted badly to build it first, but hadn't seen any messages about it and MoM and Colossus get better culture.

1125 BC (15) - Currency learned, start on Monasticism.

1100 BC (16) - Finally some good news, as we meet the Germans. They are nearer to us, while the rest have hit middle ages (as indicated by barbarian uprisings). Currency and 32g for Republic, which is where I presume we are going. Or is it democracy? Istanbul finishes MoM, starts spearman.

1075 BC (17) - Barb horsemen seemed to be headed for Spain, not us. Withdraw workers just in case.

1050 BC (18) - After a couple of spears, start water mill.

IT - Egypt demands some gold. They are relatively far off, and I am not in the mood. They declare.

Final notes - I have no idea what happened during my turns. The number of techs learned was overwhelming. Once we have watermill and one more mined hill, we can do some one turn camel riders, and maybe try to knock out Santiago, thereby claiming incense for some badly needed high culture wonders. I guess we also need to take care of the culture improvements like Monument, but there hasn't really been a great time for that.

IT - Egypt demands some gold. They are relatively far off, and I am not in the mood. They declare.
This is a *1* CC. We don't want to fight useless wars. Please cave to demands unless it is an extreme as every military unit built is shields wasted toward additional culture. We need a ton of culture built. 25K is a very large goal. Unless the war has a very good purpose we are losing focus. This was losing focus on the big picture. This is meant to be an almost pure builders game.
I guess we also need to take care of the culture improvements like Monument,
I agree 100% that we want anything culture giving. However, the low culture items like that may take a back seat for a while.

Once we have watermill and one more mined hill, we can do some one turn camel riders, and maybe try to knock out Santiago, thereby claiming incense for some badly needed high culture wonders.
This might have merit, but what wonders are we missing?

Signed up:
LKendter
Bezhukov
Bed_head7
Doc Tsiolkovski (currently playing)
Grs (on deck)


Remember 20 turns per round (not much will happen with just 1 city) - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

NOTE: This is a strict 1CC. We can't have another city for even a millisecond.

Sorry for not giving you some more input, Bed.

Republic is pop-rush, Demo is cash, if I'm not mistaken. :)

I suggest we go for the bottom half of the tree toward the GL. We'll very much need it. According to the Civilopedia, Slave Trade does not give us tourism.

My weed cost us the Oracle. :(

Colossus, however, is probably more valuable over the long run. Once we get MoM, we should be able to manage a Slave Market (gives the same production boost as a Water Mill). This is worth it even if running 1 lux (we also have war happiness).

The GA is well used for wonders (tourism).

We badly need Demo. A agree with a Slave Market for now, but may run into trouble later (literarelly dozens of wonders increase the unhappiness). Palace Gardens, Heroic Epic (no Army required in RaR), Academy/The Academy, Library/Great Library, Theatre. Port. Don't see us leaving the AA soon, there's a lot of stuff to get there first.
Missing the Oracle sucks...this is the singlemost important culture wonder. Best culture/shield values:
Monument (1/20); Shrine/Artist Guild (1/40); Theatre (1/50); Port (1/60). Artist Guilds are MA, but we should get the other ones ASAP.

Doc, the pedia says that the Slave Market unhappiness caused by Wonders is not cumulative. I've never had problems with it - it's not like we need WLTK days in the capital.

Also building culture is important, but until 10AD or so, shouldn't tourism be the first priority? (Epic doesn't get it) As long as we get the good culture in time to double, we should be OK. Also makes sense to build great wonders that won't always be available before small wonders that will.

We badly need Demo.
Are you interested in the trade bonus, or the cash rush ability to speed up some buildings? Either way I don't want to revolt until after the GA.

Our production with the wind mill is 40 SPT. :D
Can you say academy in 2, palace gardens in 3, school of scribes in 3, harbor in 1 (Lighthouse not yet built!), etc. I hope our GA gets several more cutlure wonders. We are 80 turns into the game and only making 7 CPT. With the 25K goal we need to average 46/turn to win at 2050AD.

I do think the GA timing works to get a lot of buildings in place for doubling. All of those 1 and 2 cpt buildings double will really help toward the goal.

Also building culture is important, but until 10AD or so, shouldn't tourism be the first priority?

I agree some tourism would be nice. I think palace gardens with tourism and 2 cpt and harbor / great lighthouse should be the priorities. We already have 2 wonders for tourism. 2 more would really help. When we run out of wonders we need academy / the academy to help with science.

Obviously the tb wonders should finish before. But if none is availabe...
The unhappiness is indeed adding up in C3C. This was an unexpected surprise to find this fixed; we weren't aware of that. And so the Pedia wasn't updated here. Note it is not cumulative (2x doubling is not 4x), but each adds one more unhappy face. Nothing we have to worry as long as there are no other unhappiness reasons...but we're aiming for a high WW gov.

Sorry, my log became unclear. The trading at the start took longer than I expected, and along with other events in game, I was playing much later than usual. I don't think any of my play was affected, but my log became rather unclear. We finished MoM on turn 16, built two spears, and started water mill.

Sorry about going to war. I didn't realize that alliances were not available at this time, but it was stupid of me to assume that they were and irresponsible of me not to check. I wanted to get Spain allied if possible, have them waste some units on each other, then as I said at the end of my log, take Santiago. Incense would be nice for Holy City and Shangri La, and would help to make up for missing out on some other wonders.

I can't clearly remember the other available wonders. I think the Great Wall is still out there as well as the Great Lighthouse. Not sure what else.

>Either way I don't want to revolt until after the GA.

Second that motion. I move that we wait until after we get the GL. And we will need it on Deity.

Bed, I thought you had a great set of turns, even when things went other than planned.

:p

Remember that Great Libnary requires a library, so no prebuild. Might not hurt to squeeze the Gardens in here quickly while we have a breather. Can we agree to stick to the bottom of the tech tree? The AI will usually neglect it.

No way we want to revolt during GA, but after that, cash-rushing would be fine. We may want to go to Absolute Monarchy later, and stay there forever.

Since I need to play the 7+1 Sid game before, and won't be done with that one before tomorrow, could we switch here? Just slot me in after grs.

Ignore the above post,
I got it.

Ottomans, 1000BC
Can someone please explain me why we haven’t started to mine the FPs? We’re in our GA, and waste dozens of shields because of that; mining that hill takes forever.
1000BC, and we’re making 7cpt…

IBT: Water Mill->Academy

1-975 Isabella gets 42gp
2-950 IBT: Academy->War Camel. Barbs show up.
3-925 IBT: War Camel->War Camel
4-900 IBT: We learn Monasticism. Loose a Spear and Ranger to Barbs.
5-875 Loose Camel Rider to Barb. Kill him with a Camel. We have a monopoly on Monasticism. Get IW and Seafaring from Tibet. Military Training from Germans. We enter Middle Ages. Olive Oil and Wines from Spain. 80gp from France.
Start on Poetry.
6-850 There is simply nothing I could do about those Barbarian Horses. Can’t even plan what to build, I simply pile up shields towards something.
7-825 Grr, France has learned Poetry. Egypt shows up.
8-800 Have to pay 140gp for peace. Not that we have any use for the cash anyway…IBT: Poetry->Drama
9-775 IBT: The Academy->Palace Gardens
10-750 Waste a Camel to damage a barb Horse, finish him with our Archer. At least, we get a Slave.
11-730 IBT: Palace Gardens->Theatre prebuild.
12-710 IBT: Drama->Lit
13-690
14- 670 Buy Incense from Spain for 100gp. Disband our Scout in germany, he cannot get anywhere before getting the boot. And he does cost us upkeep.
15-650 :cry: move all units out of the city. Better loose a turn of production or a pop point than to get pillaged. IBT: Yep, 1 pop lost.
16-630
17-610 IBT: Loose Spear to Barb. Learn Lit. Library finishes.
18-590 :cry: have to build Archers.
19-570 IBT: Our GA ends.
20-550

I’m clueless. Our city spot sucks. Not founding your capital on a hill is an almost ridiculous mistake; I take a river hill any time over a sole food bonus. Plus, the fact our city is on FP makes it highly likely we’ll get hit by disease sooner or later. And, the city doesn’t even have growth potential with 4 desert tiles.
I’m building a granary now; we need population, we need it even more then the Great Library! Istanbul is size 7…

Note Dark Ages cannot be traded, the AIs are way into Middle Ages, but we need to research that tech ourselves (or get it from the Glib).
We’re making 16cpt now, 408 total. Lhasa has 818…and culture isn't even what I'm really worried about...

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK91_550BC.zip)

Bottom line:
Seriously, if LK88 is doubtful, this one is a disaster. I cannot imagine a Civ that would be harder for 20k than Ottomans. We do not get a discount on any improvements. We have about the worst UU for OCC, requiring two resources. We have no cheap Champs to fight the Barbs or trim a neighbour early. No fast Workers, no AGR bonus. A completely useless (for OCC) trait specific improvement.
Would you pick Hittites for the first time you try Deity OCC in unmodded? Hittites with a 3MC that requires Iron and Horses? I’m open for a challenge, but this one won’t work out well.
Almost everything we can do is a bit trading, choose production, and hope we don’t get attacked. And hit enter 500 times.

I cannot imagine a Civ that would be harder for 20k than Ottomans.
If you check the thread it said Civilization = Random. Someone should have spoken up at that point to show the problem with random.


Not founding your capital on a hill is an almost ridiculous mistake
Sorry, but I didn't know about RaR with hills giving 2 shields in the capitol. I was trying to save the needed shields and hills. I know hills are very powerful in RaR and didn't want to waste one.


Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Bezhukov
Bed_head7
Doc Tsiolkovski
Grs (currently playing)


Remember 20 turns per round (not much will happen with just 1 city) - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

NOTE: This is a strict 1CC. We can't have another city for even a millisecond.

I've seen the Ottomans. But seriously, it may have worked out well due to the random factor of EXP - that would have made up for it. Obviously, I didn't expect someone to build aCOunselor instead of a Monument. And it's not only about the spt in our case - this start has more a food problem than a shield problem; we can cope better with the missing shield than with the missing FP at the moment.
But the biggest problem is the missing defence bonus. And of course, the fact that founding on the Hill would have meant Iron and Incense is sadistic. :cry:
But, this is not a game we should abandon. Our culture is ok, we have two useful, but low culture wonders, and we have a good shot at the GLib (Important: Do not trade Drama. Any turn delay for the AI is crucial!). Invention will give us at least Crossbows (another reason why I built Archers, those can be upgraded). Fail to see why we didn't build a monument very early, that would have helped a lot.
The problem is that we need to keep low profile throughout the the game.

Obviously, I didn't expect someone to build aCOunselor instead of a Monument.
That one was a real suprise to me. I agree that was a real waste of shields.


I think the next OCC game will need discussion on the civ. I *DO* plan another RaR OCC.

Oh man, I knew that FP could be mined, but it is just so different in that aspect from Conquests that I completely forgot to do it. With all of the handicaps we already have, me doing things like that doesn't help. Sorry.

Got it....

Well, we've all made mistakes in this one. We were very fortunate to get Philo first, and the two monopoly techs. I think long term the biggest problem with the location is the three deserts. For a non-AGR civ, those are almost dead tiles.

Doc, the early monument gets you what, 400ish culture? As opposed to the 250 or so if we build it now. That's one or two turns difference in the RandR late game. If we get within one or two turns of winning, we'll be doing well here. I obviously thought the Counselor was a Wiseman, and could have made the difference in getting to Philo.

Well, we've all made mistakes in this one. Hey wait a minute I did not even get to do my first turns - wait till you see my mistakes ;)

grs, I think you are confused. It seems in the games that we have played together that you fix my mistakes, giving you no opportunity to make your own.

I think with the Current Tech hole we need the Great Library first. It is worth building a slave market first?
It is a lot less culture then regular C3C for the Great Library, but it solves the tech problem for a while.

After that do we go with temple and holy city? I realize it is a small wonder, but 2 content faces and 4 nice culture points for 320 shields. I don't think we can get Shangri La.

Research: Dark Ages (60%) - Invention (60%) - Milling (40%) - off (40% lux) - Barding, Democracy, Elephant Training, Horse Breeding, Mounted Archery, Athletics, Lanteen Sail, Naval Spirit, Stirrup, Theology, Vassalage, Warrior Code, Clockworks, Engineering, Scientific Method (1st turn after the GL) - Castle Building, Feudalism, Fundamentalism, Heraldry, Siege Warfare, Alchemy, Guilds, Usury (2nd turn after the GL) - Chivalry, Crop Rotation, Banking, Scholasticism (3rd turn after the GL - no one is up any techs on us anymore) - Architecture (from the GL two turns later) - Astronomy is our current project - due in 4.

Builds: Granary (510BC) - The Great Library (310BC) - Harbor (290BC) - Port (250BC) - Monument (230BC) - The Heroic Epic (current project).

Wonders completed by the AI: Angkor Wat (France), Sun Tzu's (Egypt), Great Lighthouse (France).

AI demands: Bismarck 30 gold (370BC), Joan 29gold (350BC), Cleo 27gold (330BC), Songtsen 26gold (290BC)

Archers have been upgraded to crossbows. One barb who closed in on Istanbul was killed losing 1 crossbow. The other one was killed by the Tibetanians. The land north of us was settled, so no more barbs.

We have bought Olive Oil and Wines from the Spanish for 6gpt (5 more turns). The incense deal has run out, we probably should renew it. We can trade away our camel...think about it. It gives us acess to the Mameluk (5.3.3) - a nice unit, but if the AI attacks...how many mamaluks do we need :lol: ? We can make deals with Germany, since we have the harbor.

Our workers are on their way to irrigate to the plains and to road the other forest.

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Bezhukov (on deck)
Bed_head7
Doc Tsiolkovski
Grs


Remember 20 turns per round (not much will happen with just 1 city) - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

NOTE: This is a strict 1CC. We can't have another city for even a millisecond.

The risk with trading Camels, Elephants or Incense is that those can deplete. I wouldn't sell them unless desperately needed.

150 BC
I play Spain $9/turn for incense. This is so they don't trade it to someone else and to complete some more incense buildings.
(IT) Spain completed Shangri La.


130 BC
(IT) Gunpowder comes in for free.


110 BC
The GL is dead as Education comes in for free.


70 BC
(IT) France completes Knights Templar.


10 AD
(IT) We complete a temple.


70 AD
(IT) We complete a Basilica. I am trying to complete buildings that need incense and give culture.


170 AD
I send Political Philosophy to France @ monopoly for Matchlock, Physics, wm and $15.
I send Political Philosophy, wm and $145 to Egypt for Metallurgy.
I send Germany Political Philosophy and Metallurgy to get Navigation, $34 and wm.
I send Political Philosophy to Spain for wm and $310.
We are still behind in tech, but the amount has dropped.


210 AD
Multiple Spanish enter our territory. I hope they are targeting someone else.
(IT) Egypt declares war on Germany.
Tibet completes Leo's.
Spain is going for someone else.


230 AD
I send Metallurgy and $85 to Tibet and get Magnetism.
(IT) We complete a Cathedral.
Spain completes Chichen Itza.


==========================

Summary:
The capitol is up to size 10 and making 42 shields a turn. I really don't want Magellan's Voyage. It will simply hold the most shields on the way to Encyclopedia. Humanism is the target goal. I think we can research printing press and Humanism in less then 19 turns. That will keep us up in tech for quite awhile. It also takes us to the *8* culture wonder of Shakespeare.

We still need a lot of culture to hit 25K.


Signed up:
LKendter
Bezhukov (currently playing)
Bed_head7 (on deck)
Doc Tsiolkovski
Grs


Remember 20 turns per round (not much will happen with just 1 city) - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

NOTE: This is a strict 1CC. We can't have another city for even a millisecond.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK91-250AD.zip

Got it. Will do my best.

Build Courthouse, District Courthouse, and Police Station ASAP right?

:mischief:

Pre-flight: Yes, it would be slightly bad if the Spanish decided to attack. If we’re going to build Encyclopedia, we need more shields and more pop. We’re almost to Humanism already, so can spare a little dough for 10% lux. MM for growth in one, building Slave Market in one – we’ll be making at least 24 base shields per turn soon. So SM gets 6 spt.

IBT: Spain declares on Germany, razes Salzburg for us. Germany allies Tibet against Spain and Egypt. Woo hoo! As I noted in another thread: given time, the AI will kill itself. :mischief: Let’s hope no one gets the upper hand.

260AD: MM for growth in 3, 40 shields toward Bazaar. Will short-rush next turn. Then make decision on Encyclo pre-build when I see research time. We are very short on cash boosters and Bazaar also helps happiness if we need it (we are over half happy right now on 10% lux). Will join native worker next turn as well. Absolutism in 1, turn down research to 30%. We’re still only making 11 gpt – thus the need for Bazaar. Spain has Iron available, but we can’t afford it – ditto on Bazaar. Germany does give us dyes for 3gt. Hmm, have an idea – yes, it works. Trade Spain Camel for Iron and 4 gpt. Let’s get that iron supply set. Can now turn lux down to zero – for this turn. Upgrade spear to pike, not that it would do much good if we’re attacked.

IBT: Spain captures Gerze (Tibet). Not so good.

270AD: Absolutism comes in. Revolt? Not until at least we build the Encyclopedia. PP in 7 (we hit deficit at 60% – definitely need Bazaar.) Go for greater deficit. Short-rush Bazaar from 40 to 60 shields using Great Galleas. Ouch, 120 gold. Oh well, will make it back with Bazaar. Trade Tibet Abs for MM, known by all else. Suggested build order: Encyclopedia, Shakes, I Port. When IP comes in, we’ll do pretty well for a desert town.

IBT: Sweet. Tibet takes back Girze, then Spain razes it: Tobacco in the open. May want colony. I’ll let next player decide that one. Join native worker as we need pop in the worst way and all non-desert tiles have been developed.

380AD: IP makes a heck of a pre-build. Might as well get started on this baby. MM for growth, making 18 base shields (net 40 – the Slave Market gets us from 1.25 extra – need multiples of four, to 1.5 extra – multiples of two), +4fpt, growth in 3.

290AD: Literally nothing happened this turn. IP in 24 (will improve).

IBT: France declares on Spain! Sure would not suck one bit to see Santiago get razed.

300AD: nada. All but two citizens happy at 10% lux. Hmm, we can get Cotton from Spain for 3 gpt. Why not? Turn lux down again. Will go up on growth, but so will income.

IBT: Egypt extorts us disurbingly close to our deficit rate – no more of that! LK would have my hide! :lol:

310AD: PP in one at 60% Grow to 13 pop. Adjust to 22 base, 49 net shields. Hmm, guess I was wrong about the multiples. So might as well go with 21/47, grow in seven. BTW, this is a pathetic amount for any RandR capital at this point, in my experience, let alone a OCC. Let’s see what we can do with it.

320AD: Sigh, Germany, France, and Egypt get PP one same turn we do. :sad: Spain does give us 12 gpt for it (no techs, but we don’t need any techs – if we don’t get Encylopedia, we really are dead), letting us get out of deficit. Humanism in 9, making 11 gpt. Hmm, Only two wonders under construction are Copernicus in Paris (should complete soon) and Sistine in crappy Seville. Hope we can dodge cascade on Shakes.

IBT: Spain starts Gutenberg, no surprise, and Bach’s. Good thing we have the International Port to catch all those Shake’s shields.

330AD: No serious cascade risk on Encyclopedia, so MM for growth in 3.

340AD: Growth in 2

IBT: France extorts 20 gold. It might be a good idea to get some RoP’s to cut down on extortion.

350AD: Tibet has had nada to trade for Printing Press for 5 turns, so I use it to get an RoP. MM to grow next turn to 14. Istanbul has pulled into the culture lead, thanks to LK’s good work. Hopefully, we can get IP in time to get some of the small culture buildings before doubling, but I doubt we can. Shakes is too important to delay. Pls try to keep iron so we can build a factory. Praying for coal. BTW, Germany has 2 workers to sell, but wants an exorbitant amount for them. Rails will be the nest time we will need them, if we're lucky.

I hope we can agree that we need shields right now above all else, so we can also agree that the 11 gpt we’re spending on lux is worth it for the 6spt the Slave Market makes. The cash-rush rate for shields is 3 times that.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK91-350AD.JPG

Summary:
Trade Spain Camel for Iron and 4 gpt.
Didn't you read Doc's comments that Camels can expire? :mad:
What did we gain from Iron that justified risking our rep? All I can find is one lousy pikeman. If we are attacked we are dead - period. I don't think $4/turn is worth rep roulette.

LK would have my hide!
Since the building would have be a culture building most likely, do I even need to say more?

@Doc - Does the worker housing still work, or should we sell it to save $1/turn?

Bed_head7 will see if we pull of Encyclopedia. It should take 17 turns. Please don't sell Humanism. The tech race really depends on Encyclopedia, and the culture race on Free Artistry.

Signed up:
LKendter
Bezhukov
Bed_head7 (currently playing)
Doc Tsiolkovski (on deck)
Grs

Remember 20 turns per round (not much will happen with just 1 city) - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

NOTE: This is a strict 1CC. We can't have another city for even a millisecond.

"Please don't sell Humanism. The tech race really depends on Encyclopedia, and the culture race on Free Artistry."

Second this motion. As to your thoughts on the Iron - in 17 turns we will need it badly to build our factory and soon after to start rails. It may have been our only chance to secure a source. I stand by my decision and would appreciate not being browbeaten on judgement calls like this.

If the Camel depletes, we're pretty well toast anyway.

As to your thoughts on the Iron - in 17 turns we will need it badly to build our factory and soon after to start rails. It may have been our only chance to secure a source. I stand by my decision and would appreciate not being browbeaten on judgement calls like this.

If the Camel depletes, we're pretty well toast anyway.
This is a play style issue to a degree, but I personally HATE trading any single source of a resource that can deplete. Nothing can be said that won't get me upset reading that.

There is nothing I find more painful that playing a game with a ruined rep. I won't do anything that puts that rep at risk...

Got it. We aren't doing too badly culturally. Better off than I thought, at least.

Bezhukov, while I completely understand your decision, and in a game of mine would even allow it, this is LKendter's game, and when you sign up you are agreeing to abide by the rules of the game. I think LK breifly retired from SGs because of that sort of thing. I'll make sure to cross my fingers and hold my breath and such, won't renew the deal (hopefully can find an alternative way to get the iron) and it should all work out okay.

Bezhukov, while I completely understand your decision, and in a game of mine would even allow it, this is LKendter's game, and when you sign up you are agreeing to abide by the rules of the game. I think there is nothing in the rules about selling your last resource of something we never need (camel) for a resource we dearly need soon (iron). Bezhukov gave more than good reason why he did.

I'll make sure to cross my fingers and hold my breath and such, won't renew the deal (hopefully can find an alternative way to get the iron) and it should all work out okay. The only alternative would be to buy it for gpt. While lux is pretty cheap in a OCC, stratigic resources are still full price IIRC.

Nothing was said here, but "LK house rules" say reputation is golden, and selling the last of an exhaustible resource puts the rep at risk. As I said, the move is fine with me, and in a different game I would probably make the same move, but this is an LK game. Of course, his standard rules weren't posted at the beginning, so Bezhukov may not have been as familiar with this as he might have been.

I think there is nothing in the rules about selling your last resource of something we never need (camel) for a resource we dearly need soon (iron). Bezhukov gave more than good reason why he did.
Grs is correct. While I dislike the tactic big time, it is valid in the LK series. I can't ban playing depletion roulette.
The please respect our rep comment is in there is discourage this tactic.

I have suffered a ruin rep before from resource depletion.

The Worker Housing must be sold ASAP.
The only effect it still has is costing 1gpt upkeep. It shows to give 1 Happy Face, but that is a display error. A minor error, I'm still very happy the ability to obsolete improvements was one thing Kal-el managed to get into C3C, and it works perfectly otherwise.

"The Worker Housing must be sold ASAP."

Ah, that's what was throwing my calculations off. We're getting 2.25x base shields, not 2.5. this implies that we get our best benefits at multiples of 4 on base shields, so when possible shoot for that. Guild Hall, prison, and hospital can get us to 3, though the first requires gold and the other two are pricey before factories.

Doc, what's the percentage chance of depletion? I'm guessing .25%. So the decision is this (assuming iron is even available - a big assumtion).

A. 25gpt (the going rate for iron), no iron, and 0% chance of rep hit.
B. 0gpt, iron, 0% rep hit.
c. 25gpt, iron, .25% chance of rep hit.

For B. to be better than C., our rep would have to be worth at least 10,000 gpt in present value gold. Rep is golden, but not that golden.

Short term, option A can work, but obviously that short term decision affects the long.

390 AD (4) - Buy a worker from Spain for 4gpt and 51g.

400 AD (5) - Learn Humanism, start Free Artistry. Switch IP over to Encyclopedie, due in 12 turns.

410 AD (6) - France and Spain sign peace.

420 AD (7) - Buy worker from Germany for 5gpt and 34g.

430 AD (8) - Spain demands Humanism, and I give in. They then sell it to all but Tibet. We get WM, 13g, and Music Theory from Tibet for it.

440 AD (9) - We need to pay 10gpt instead of 9gpt for Incense from Spain.

470 AD (12) - The iron-camel deal expired. They now want us to pay in addition to camel for the iron, instead of vice versa. Needless to say, I do not renew the deal.

490 AD (14) - Learn Free Artistry. Start on Newtonian Synthesis at 10%.

520 AD (17) - Finish Encyclopedie. Start Shakespeare. Emphasize growth for this turn to get to size 15.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK91_420AD_encyc.jpg

530 AD (18) - Five techs come in. Unfortunately, the COlossus expires.

540 AD (19) - Two more techs come in. Almost finished with the Middle Ages.

550 AD (20) - Get seven more techs. We are up Industrialization on Egypt, and get Iron, three luxuries, and 490g from them. With all the money, upgrade some workers to laborers. Sell Steam Power and Nationalism to Tibet for 664g. So finally we have some money to play with in our treasury.

We still have Free Artistry as a monopoly, luckily. Unfortunately, no coal to be had out there. Keep an eye on it ever becoming available, as most nations seem to be playing some sort of Oscillating War variant.

I have no idea what to research (isn't everyone getting tired of hearing that?). We'll get Industrialization, Constitutionalism, and Federalism next turn, not leaving many options for useful research this turn (so the slider is at 10%).

Next tech we want is high explosives to finally build railroads. Without them our city can't sustain more than 17 pop - so Shakes would only be worth half it's value.

We will get Industrialization (next tech to high explosives next turn) as we will get Constitutionalism next turn and should revolt to have faster workers / slaves. After Shakes we should grab all the small culture improvements - even though they cost maint.

>Without them our city can't sustain more than 17 pop

International Port + Fishery might give us more food than we can use, though rails are of course ideal. Pls do not revolt until we get Shakes, we need to make sure we get it. Glad to see there was extra iron out there. Ouch on losing Colossus. Still get tourism...

We pull of Encyclopedia and keep in the tech race. :D
Now can we get Shakespeare?

Signed up:
LKendter
Bezhukov
Bed_head7
Doc Tsiolkovski (currently playing)
Grs (on deck)

Remember 20 turns per round (not much will happen with just 1 city) - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

NOTE: This is a strict 1CC. We can't have another city for even a millisecond.

I got it.

Ottomans, 550AD
Sell off the Worker Housing, finally.
Switch research to Naval Tactics, FWIW.
No interesting trades.
The one city improvement we’d need is an Artist’s Guild, 3cpt for 120sp. But Shakes’ comes first, of course.
IBT:
We learn Constitutionalism, Federalism, Industrialization. And of course, Barb Horses run to us again :mad:
1-560: decide to sell Ind to Egypt, and rush the Factory. Just in case our iron supply gets lost. IBT: Factory->Shakes.
Paris complete Gutenberg. Cascades go to Bach’s, Clausewitz and Sistine (none completes).
2-570 Get small change and RoP from Spain for medicine (know to everyone else). We need her Hussars to hunt the Barbs…
3-580 Barbs will pillage a Hill…:mad: :mad: :mad:
IBT: Spain kills a Barb, but the N Hill gets pillaged. Even a Barbarian ship messes up our water tiles.
4-590
IBT: Spain kills 1 Horse, and 2 more impale on a Spanish Spear. Thanks, Isabella. Tibetian Longboat tries to sink the Barb Vessel, but gets defeated.
We learn Social Darwinism.
5-600 Egypt has Coal to trade, but we have nothing to offer. Since all AIs have their own sources, no need to make a deal right now.
IBT: Ack, Egypt learns Free Artistry.
6-610 Since Egypt is at peace with France (who happen to have 16k gold…), can as well sell it for 390gp and a Lux.
IBT: Spain kills another Horse.
7-620
IBT: Spain kills another Horse.
8-630
9-640 Tibet has Gold to trade; get it and some gp/gpt for Industrilization.
IBT: French start Shakes.
10-650
11-660
IBT: Santiago of all cities completes Sistine.
12-670 Phew, no cascades to Shakes.
13-680
14-690
IBT: We learn Naval Tactics by ourselves. Steel by the Enc. And:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Shakes.jpg

15-700 Get about 500gp, Gems, Coal and Saltpetre for NT. Start an Artist Guild. Upgrade our 2 units to Line Infantry. Lux to 0%, start on Sanitation.
IBT: We learn Steam Engine and Emancipation. France knows High Explosives.
16-710 Arg, our Slave Market is obsolete now. That screws up the AG build, but can fix it buy short-rushing. Of course, this also helps with happiness.
17-720 Build a Laborer. We cannot sustain pop 16 without RR, and there are simply no Workers for sale.
18-730 Laborer->Guild Hall.
19-740
IBT: We loose our supply of Iron and several Luxuries from Egypt. Can live without the Luxes, but buy Iron for 350gp and WM. We also lost our Saltpetre from Tibet, since she lost that town to Egypt.
20-750
We’re making 54cpt now. Research towards City Planning; we need the Park to deal with pollution, and it gives culture as well, and the AI usually ignores that path. I would even get a Park and Coal Plant, then hopefully a few Rifles, and then the IP, since the IP produces pollution as well. And, we can still build HE (gives only 2cpt). No really important wonders atm, if you ask me. Taj Mahal is being built by the AI since some time; East India Company could be worth it next. And, Newton’s and ToE are not started so far; that ones requires an University first.
I would not revolt before ~900AD, we could get some more culture to double.
Governor will pick the hill upon growth, for GH in 2.

If nothing changes drastically, Egypt should win by Domination. She has eaten almost all of Germany, and starts eating Tibet. Unfortunately, there is nothing we could do about this. Either France decides to fight Egypt, or I don’t see the slightest chance for a victory here :(.

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK91_750AD.zip)

If we build the Mil Academy, we will auto generate armies every 30 turns and tanks should come in before the Encyclopedia expires. Any chance of arranging a pile on Egypt when that happens (defending ourselves with tanks and sending a pillaging jeep army to Egypt)?

If nothing changes drastically, Egypt should win by Domination.
I agree there percentage of the world isn't nice. As long as Spain / France will just hold on we are OK. However, even a couple of towns lost to Egypt may be enough if they come from Spain / France.

We need to average 47 CPT during the game to win a 25K. We have finally crossed above that average at 54 CPT. Beyond the wonders we still have a couple of small culture buildings like university to build. The question is when do we want to sneak that in.

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Bezhukov
Bed_head7
Doc Tsiolkovski
Grs (currently playing)

Remember 20 turns per round (not much will happen with just 1 city) - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

NOTE: This is a strict 1CC. We can't have another city for even a millisecond.

I'd go GH->East India->Coal Plant->Park->International Port->University->Newton/ToE.
For the war, Rifles and Cavs do not require resources. Egypt will eat Spain alive, they cannot protect us. France may have a chance.
Problem is, the % of land Egypt holds is misleading; she has a lot of unexpanded cities; if she really takes out all of Tibet (and considering the number of Hussars I witnessed, this seems likely), and gets culture there, she should be at about 60%!
And even if this does not happen, France could launch (but that is a natural problem in 20k games, and can be solved by marching to Paris).

"gets culture there"

Guess that means we'd better plan an Eiffel Tower build at some point?

Got it, but may need the 48h from docs post.

We built: Guild Hall - Coal Plant - Philosophers School - East Indian Company - Labourer - Sewer System (due in 1)

We learned: Electricity - High Explosives - Sanitation (self researched) - Social Contract - Replacable Parts - Grand War - Repeating Rifle - City Planning (self researched)

Notes:

800AD: Spain demands Emacipation.
810AD: France completes Bach's
840AD: Sell Sanitaion to France for 1900 gold. Egypt demands Sanitation.
890AD: Renew coal from Egypt by giving 180g + 1gpt
940AD: France learns city planning 1 turn before we do :(
950AD. Renew iron from Spain for Eletricity + 1gpt.

No turn of research was put into Realpolitik, so you can select as you wish. We already had 1 pulluted tile. Build a park after the sewer.

Many war and peace declarations, with this result.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/950AD.jpg

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Bezhukov (on deck)
Bed_head7
Doc Tsiolkovski
Grs

Remember 20 turns per round (not much will happen with just 1 city) - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

NOTE: This is a strict 1CC. We can't have another city for even a millisecond.

>Sewer System (due in 1)

I'm fairly certain Shakes allows growth over 15, does it not? If so, Sewer System is worthless. Can we build Military Academy? It autogenerates armies every 30 turns. Might be handy to have a couple of those around if needed.

950 AD
(IT) The sewer system is completed.


970 AD
(IT) The park is completed for less pollution and 1 CPT.
The war gods just cursed this game and Egypt and France ally vs. Spain.
We get Realpolitik from The Encyclopedia.


980 AD
(IT) Germany and Spain ally vs. Tibet.


990 AD
We get Modern Legal System from The Encyclopedia.
(IT) An Arena is completed for +2 content and 1 CPT.


1000 AD
(IT) Egypt and Spain sign peace.


1030 AD
(IT) We get Advanced Metallurgy from The Encyclopedia.


1040 AD
(IT) A hospital completes for a 25% production boast.


1080 AD
(IT) We get The Corporation from The Encyclopedia.


1130 AD
(IT) Spain completes Emancipation Proclamation. That is an excellent wonder for city growth.
Egypt completes Eiffel Tower for a free monument in every city.


1140 AD
(IT) International Port completes for major plus in water tiles (+1 commerce, food and shield). We get 50% tax revenue and entertainment funding. It also gives 2 CPT.
The city growth rate just shot threw the roof. We many need to go back and mine some flood plains. I will want shields before specialist.


==========================

Summary:
The situation is very scary with Egypt.

Productivity and growth are way up. The culture rate isn't moving much.
Next up is University (+2 culture and research help with the Encyclopedia dies). Newton's is already under construction.

Signed up:
LKendter
Bezhukov (currently playing)
Bed_head7 (on deck)
Doc Tsiolkovski
Grs

Remember 20 turns per round (not much will happen with just 1 city) - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

NOTE: This is a strict 1CC. We can't have another city for even a millisecond.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK91-1150_AD.zip

The sewer system is completed
:confused: Why that? We have Shakespeares'. A complete waste, unless I miss something.

I played a couple of Deity OCC games the last few days, and I came to the conclusion this variant is not viable above Emperor, or maybe DG if the AI is cooperative.
Even with far better cities, a SCI Civ (Greece) and SGLs on (of course, not that I ever got more than 2), Oracle and 100+cpt around 1200AD, arond the time I reached 10k, someone reached domination. Once the leading Civ in RaR starts to steamroll over the runner-ups, there is no way to stop it. Even allying the world against it is futile.
Should work on standard maps, but not on small.

Doc, I think the runaway AI phenomenon, as my Rome screenshot from the RandR thread was meant to illustrate, has more to do with the pathetic weakness of the weak than the strength of the strong. They just blow all their shields on pipedreams, then starve themselves to death pop-rushing. This is the only glaring weakness in what is otherwise the best mod for Civ3 hands down.

My solutions - and this is painful but I do feel necessary: no pop-rushing govs. The AI just can't manage it effectively in the long run. As well as restrictions on wonders. Some cascades may need to be sacrificed. But there are other things the AI needs badly to build to compete.

I've been testing the TAM mod to prepare for the succession game. Makes me appreciate RandR all the more. The ONLY appeal there is the novelty.

Why that? We have Shakespeares'. A complete waste, unless I miss something. Mostly my mistake, I started it. LK probably did not read Bezhukovs warning in time.

Mostly my mistake, I started it. LK probably did not read Bezhukovs warning in time.
I did miss the warning until AFTER I played. It was to late at that point. I would suggest the next player sell it.




I played a couple of Deity OCC games the last few days, and I came to the conclusion this variant is not viable above Emperor, or maybe DG if the AI is cooperative.

While I plan to finish this game, I do agree. I give us < 10% of not losing by domination. My mistake with the starting location didn't help as we probably would have gotten more shields earlier and snuck in some more culture earlier.

Bez, pop-rushing is no problem at all. There are no units cheap enough in the IA/ModernA anyway.
The situation is mainly caused by the fact there is no Über-Defender like Infantry in unmodded.
If two equally advanced Civs, with one twice as big as the other, fight in unmodded at that time, almost nothing happens. In RaR, the bigger one will eat the smaller one alive (unless MGs/Tanks hit the scene). This game is a typical example: France and Spain wouldn't be able to defend against Egypt. In unmodded, they could easily, as long as the have Rubber.
The problem are not the weaklings, the problem is that even top Civ#2 if it happens to be played by the AI cannot defend aghainst #1.
Note I do not really see this as a balance problem; the situation rarely emerges on standard or above, simply because there is room for at least 2 strong AIs. I just wouldn't advice to try OCCs on small maps.

Doc, how can you be so sure? When I go aspying, I see some interesting things. I once saw an International Port town with a lone entertainer! (he was the only citizen left), this says the AI is either pop-rushing (making 60 shields toward an 80 shields unit, say - something the human would never do) or drafting itself to death. The fact that two AI's can survive on larger maps is not sufficient - if we wanted to play just 2 AI's we would select that at the beginning - it's more fun with more viable AI's.

You're right about the defense. Have you ever consider going 4,5,6,7,8 on the defensive unit progression instead of 4,4,5,6,8? This gentle change might help (Line Infantry at 5 defense).

"wait till you see my mistakes"

That was a long wait, grs :lol: Doc, guess it's your turn now. Despite our mistakes, if it weren't for power-mad Cleo raining on everyone else's parade, we'd be in decent shape. Pls build the Mil Academy, so we will have some hope, even only a fool's.

Doh! I see it's up to me. Got it.

Doc, guess it's your turn now.
Signed up:
LKendter
Bezhukov (currently playing)
Bed_head7 (on deck)
Doc Tsiolkovski
Grs

Remember 20 turns per round (not much will happen with just 1 city) - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

NOTE: This is a strict 1CC. We can't have another city for even a millisecond.

Drafting is a problem, for sure. Still, the situation in RaR is more 'normal' than in unmodded IMHO. It's a bit bizarr to have an era where you do not have to care about an AI conquering another one. In unmodded MAs or AAs, that's common as well.

"It's a bit bizarr to have an era where you do not have to care about an AI conquering another one."

That's true - just would like it to be a fair fight. ;)

Signed up:
LKendter
Bezhukov (currently playing)
Bed_head7 (on deck)
Doc Tsiolkovski
Grs

Remember 20 turns per round (not much will happen with just 1 city) - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
NOTE: This is a strict 1CC. We can't have another city for even a millisecond.

Pre-flight: Ah, Total War, so near yet so far… Guess we don’t want to settle for a diplo win anyway. I see we’ll be getting Refrig next turn from the pedia, Univ as Fishery pre-build. Sell Naval Tactics to Otto for 108 gold and WM. RoP with Joanie for WM and 3 gpt to improve relations. Sell Repeating Rifle to Isabella to help her against Egypt and get us silks and some gpt. Start mining FP (we can plant forest on the plains later). Gift Tibet up to Repeating Rifle (as if it will help). Cleo is broke, maybe there is hope.

Of course, Sewer System is unsellable. Shall we build an Aqueduct too for the matched set? :lol:

IBT: Iron deal runs out – trade her Advance Metallurgy to renew, also get some gold.

1160AD: Fishery in 1.

1170AD: Fishery->hmm, take a peek at Orleans building Newton’s in 17. Better get to work. Univ in 3.

1180AD: shortrush to get Uni in 1.Trade Egypt WM for Rubber, something fishy there.

1190AD: Uni->Newton’s in 5. Espionage in 1.

Refining comes in from pedia. Of course we have no Oil, despite our generous supply of desert. :( Apparently only Tibet has an extra, but it is not yet roaded.

1200AD: Trade Joanie Espionage (at monopoly) for 2800 gold and two lux. Trade to Cleo for 3 more lux and some gold. To others for spare change. Marxism in 8. :( Ouch, we need Newton’s.

1210AD: nada

1220AD: growth to 18

1230AD: nada

1240AD: Newton’s->CH (required for Prison). French start Wonderland (we need that one, so worth keeping an eye on. This also means France is at least 3 techs ahead, though only Internal Combustion is showing)

1250AD: CH-> Prison in 3.

1255AD: Combustion from pedia, shortrush Prison.

IBT: Egypt piles on Spain.

1260AD: Prison->School of Scribes. Marxism->Compulsory Ed. Sell Joanie Marx for 1900 gold. Change from the rest – Egypt is flat broke (unit support?) Planning to go science boosting now.

1265AD: School of Scribes->Monastery (one turn short rush using empty-box laborer)

1270AD: Mon->Lab (one turn, same) There are now 3 Egyptian cities with Spanish names. :( The French are screwing us (and themselves). Reup coal with Cleo for 15gpt.

1275AD: Lab->School (same thing – this is costing us about 800 per rush). I think this is 20, so will stop here. We’ll get Compulsory Ed in 3, and can trade to Joanie for cash. Can wait to get Mass Production from pedia, but should probably go for Psych on our own to get Wonderland. May need to peak at Joanie’s city building it.

We doubled our beakers and increased production by nearly 50% on these turns, so progress is being made. If only Isabella can hold out until peace. Joanie is well ahead of Cleo on tech, so maybe her tanks can do something for us.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK91-1275AD.JPG

We doubled our beakers and increased production by nearly 50% on these turns, so progress is being made.
I agree, the only trouble is CPT isn't growing much.


Well looking at the picture we have TO much food! I would rather have shield for wonders then some specialist. We had better mine the rest of the flood plains and maybe even desert.


Signed up:
LKendter
Bezhukov
Bed_head7 (currently playing)
Doc Tsiolkovski (on deck)
Grs

Remember 20 turns per round (not much will happen with just 1 city) - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

NOTE: This is a strict 1CC. We can't have another city for even a millisecond.

1200AD: Trade Joanie Espionage (at monopoly) for 2800 gold and two lux. Trade to Cleo for 3 more lux and some gold. To others for spare change. Marxism in 8.
We have the encyclopedia. I am curious what the hard research push when we get techs for free.


I took a look at the game. I think we have lost a bit of focus on the goal of 25K. A school offers zero culture and gains 50% to science. A museum offers 2 culture and gains 50% to science. Culture generating buildings are needed now. To win just before 2050 AD we need to average 70 CPT for the rest of the game. We currently make just 72 CPT with some possible doubling left. The game won't last to 2050AD. The museum should have been build before any of the other science boosters. We are at the stage where any culture still makes a big difference. 70 CPT would mean 262 turns left. 80 CPT would mean 229 turns left. We need to cut down the number of turns left.

The no culture exceptions should really help us. Fishery was worth it as we can mine a lot for tiles for shields from the extra food. Production boasters pay to help get future culture.

Well looking at the picture we have TO much food! I would rather have shield for wonders then some specialist. We had better mine the rest of the flood plains and maybe even desert.

Lurker comment:
From the pic, zero growth can be maintained at 20 pop if 3 of the 4 deserts are mined. You currently have 7 extra food and will lose 6 to mining deserts the extra one will combine with the 2 from the only irrigated desert to reduce the extra food to zero.


LK: I apologize if you don't like lurkers commenting like this. :( Thought it would be okay as it isn't spoiler info. If you like I'll edit to delete. :blush:

LK: I apologize if you don't like lurkers commenting like this.
I have no problems with these type of comments. My problem is spoiler information such as hints of future wars, resources, etc.

French start Wonderland
You are aware this comes with Psychology, which also obsoletes the Encyclopedia? In my single player trials, I always fell hopelessly behind at that point; never got a non-SGL wonder except Einstein with the Wonderland shields (missed it for one tunr), and the LoN, whcih the AI usually doesn't build; they learn Totalitarism before they start it.

Then, Food. We don't have such a surplus; they most efective use should be size 21, and a Forest on the irrigated plains tile. Any other +/- 0 situation requires to pillage a RR.

Culture: The MilAc is pretty important, but it may be already too late. Armies will allow for Pentagon, and some more small wonders, especially the War Memorial (3cpt, Fascism).
There is almost nothing to get in the Modern Ages. We won't get any wonders there, so Apollo, and a few pure cultural improvement are everything we can get. But IA offers a lot high-culture small wonders, at foremost the National Gallery (100% Science, 3cpt).
Our cpt isn't very impressive. In all the games I lost, I had 100+cpt around 1200AD already. My best result so far was 21.5k in 1774 - when Iros launched. Do not expect a Deity game lasting longer than 1800AD.

Oh, and don't forget to sell of the Court. This one at least can be sold :lol:.

Our cpt isn't very impressive. In all the games I lost, I had 100+cpt around 1200AD already. My best result so far was 21.5k in 1774 - when Iros launched. Do not expect a Deity game lasting longer than 1800AD.
Why do you think I am so worried about more culture buildings. However, I give us < 5% at this point. My bad starting placement together with mistakes made in the game pretty much killed this one.

Your start wasn't sooo bad. The reason why founding on a hill is almost mandatory is to get the 4th crucial base shield sooner, so that a Worker Housing/Forge shows an effect. But with those Camels, we could benefit from them soon enough anyway.

I'll pick up the save later.

>Well looking at the picture we have TO much food! I would rather have shield for >wonders then some specialist. We had better mine the rest of the flood plains and >maybe even desert.

The plan is to grow to max pop (at which point we will have +6 food), get a little cushion in the box (in case of future pollution), then to mine 3 deserts. The FP are already mined.

>We have the encyclopedia. I am curious what the hard research push when we get >techs for free.

Joanie has 25K gold. The "hard" research push was on optional techs for sale.

The four turns dedicated to the cheap sci buildings were necessary to keep up in the tech pace. Musuem will be the next build, but would be too expensive to short-rush in one turn, so I took school first. This decision costs us a total of 2 culture out of the 25K we need. Had I built Museum before the others, we could have had 8 extra culture. Making 70 per turn, I fail to see the benefit there.

>My best result so far was 21.5k in 1774 - when Iros launched.

Ouch. Better get that Mil Academy built. And start helping Joaine and Isabella so when we get the World War started, we'll have help.

In the MAs/end of IA we will hopelessly fall back in techs. In that game, the Iros were already researching Future techs, and had 260k gold (no typo!). They even were only the second biggest Civ...but the Celts were at 8/10 for their ship as well.
Scratch the idea of using an Army for razing a capital. In fact, it was the Iros who had Gunship Armies, while I barely made it to Armors...

Just curious, Doc, how much tourism did you have in that game? We don't have as much as I'd like, but I haven't experienced any games, even on Diety, where the AI has outstripped my tech pace in the MA. Then again, I haven't played OCC Diety before, so it's possible.

I share your concern, however, which is why I pushed sci so hard. We still have National Gallery and Public School to build, that I can think of off-hand. As long as AI stays in war mode, they shouldn't get out too far ahead. Maybe we should just write off Wonderland and avoid Psych for awhile.

1275 AD (0) - Short rush Musuem. Rushing is rather expensive in RaR.

1280 AD (1) - Start School.

1285 AD (2) - Start mining deserts as we are at size 20.

1290 AD (3) - Get Compulsory Education. France won't give up Mass Production, so no trade yet. Start Flight, as it requires Compulsory Education. School finishes, start Opera House.

1295 AD (4) - Short rush Opera House.

1300 AD (5) - Get Opera House, start Edison's as prebuild for Wonderland. Investigate Besancon, and I see that it will take 546 turns for it to finish.

1315 AD (8) - Flight learned, start Theory of Relativity. At this point, I realize that Compulsory Education is NOT a prerequisite of Flight, but no harm done.

1320 AD (9) - Mass Production comes in through GL. We have aluminum in our borders, but not is outside our workable area.

1325 AD (10) - Get Gems, Spices, 2300g from France for Compulsory Education. Get a bunch of luxuries from Egypt as well as Iron.

1335 AD (12) - French switch Wonderland to another city in cascade. Now it will take 112 turns!

1345 AD (14) - Finish ToR, start Quantum Physics.

1350 AD (15) - Give Flight and 2200g to France for Physcology. Switch over to Wonderland.

1370 AD (19) - Start Edison's for real. We should be able to build it first.

IT - Egypt and Spain sign peace!

1375 AD (20) - Finish Quantum Physics. Physcology and 172g gets Automatic Weapons from Egypt. Start Tank Warfare. Egypt is practically at domination. Maybe we'll get lucky and they won't start any more wars. There are enough unclaimed tiles that if Egypt got only 3/4, they would win. But cpt is up to 82.

Rushing is rather expensive in RaR.
The expensive is because how much shields the later buildings cost.


Signed up:
LKendter
Bezhukov
Bed_head7
Doc Tsiolkovski (currently playing)
Grs (on deck)

Remember 20 turns per round (not much will happen with just 1 city) - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

Good set of turns, though short-rushing Opera House must have been uber-pricey. Guess we can afford it. You know that Psychology turns off the Encyclopedia?

Edison is much more worth it than Einstein, so good call there. Can we still get ToE?

Egypt is practically at domination. Maybe we'll get lucky and they won't start any more wars. There are enough unclaimed tiles that if Egypt got only 3/4, they would win. But cpt is up to 82.
After looking at the game I reduce the odds of winning to about 1%.

However, I do want to officially try. The game is so quick that not a lot of time will be wasted doing so. LK88 may come back from the brink of defeat so you never know.

Signed up:
LKendter
Bezhukov
Bed_head7
Doc Tsiolkovski (currently playing) Overdue for got it
Grs (on deck)

Remember 20 turns per round (not much will happen with just 1 city) - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

Oops, forgot the 'Got it', sorry.
Will finish in time.

Ottomans, 1375AD

Hm, the good thing about a runaway Civ is that no other Civ has 25% land or population…nobody loves Diplo victories, but they’re still better than a Domination defeat ;). We’re 2 techs away from the League of Nations.
Gift Social Contract to Otto, and get Wines from Isabella for Compulsory Education (we had no deal with her at all). Switch Edison’s to ToE; same effect (except for the Research bonus, but I don’t think that will pay off in this game), but cheaper, and will finish in time with research on Tank Warfare.

Enter.
IBT: Coal deal runs out, buy it again from Egypt for 340gp and WM (we’re on deficit research, no gpt available). We’ve caught Joannie planting a Spy.

1-1380 Zzzz…IBT: Spain wants an alliance against France, decline.
2-1385 Zzzz…
3-1390 Zzzz…IBT: Swap WM with the gracious Tibetians.
4-1395 Zzzz…IBT: We get hit by pollution, one of the mined Deserts. No effect, we’re making an ugly 198spt anyway. Egypt founds a city next to that volcano West, and is now at 59.4%...
5-1400 Zzzz…IBT: We learn Tank Warfare. And:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ToE.jpg

Pick Machine Tools and Total War. Start LoN, due in 3. Start on Military Tradition.
6-1405 Zzzz…IBT: Reims completes Clausewitz. Tibet and Egypt declare on Spain :eek: (MPP triggered). Egypt starts Crystal Palace. And we get hit by pollution gain, the Camels this time.
7-1410 Zzzz…
8-1415 Spain lost no cities IBT, phew. LoN will complete, so I improve attitudes – gift Internal Combustion to Spain, build Embassy in Bonn (Palace, building MilAc at 3spt, due in 76 turns :wallbash: ), gift them 1gpr, gift WM to France and Tibet. Otto stays polite, the other are/turn gracious. Egypt is at 60.1%.
And I save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LK91_lon.zip), in case the team doesn’t agree with a Diplo victory...and prefers a Domination defeat :lol:.
Btw, we still can loose the elections, considering France and Tibet have a common enemy with Egypt.
IBT: Spain looses a city to Egypt, and another one is razed. We learn Military Tradition.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LoN.jpg

And hold elections; only us and Cleo allowed.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Votes.jpg

:dance:

Some more picks:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Istanbul1.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/F11.jpg

Note we are #3 in population…
City #2 is Paris at 4025cp.

Played on, just to see when Egypt will reach Domination (she has 69% population already)
1420-60.8% land.
1425-61.1%
1430-62.1% (Barcelona razed and replaced)
1435-63.5% (several sacrifices in that new city)
1440-63.9%
1445-64.9% (Madrid captured, Spain destroyed). We complete the MilAc, FWIW. Paris Edison. IBT: We learn Totalitarism, can use TBP to work the cleaned Desert, for HE in one.
1450-65.5%, and Madrid didn’t expand so far.
1455-65.8%
1460-65.8%
1465-65.8%.
1470-66.4%. That was it, -6 tiles to win according to MapStat. We complete the National Gallery. But we didn’t even reach 10k (2 turns short).

So, a 25k victory was completely out of reach.
"Der Spatz in der Hand ist besser als die Taube auf dem Dach." German Saying.

in case the team doesn’t agree with a Diplo victory...
The startup simply said The goal is to try for 25K win.
I didn't make it mandatory, so we take the win. :D

That was totally unexpected. I guess knowing the mod really helps for knowing the options.

25k is much more satisfying, no question. But we simply didn't make enough cpt for that, even if there would have been no killer AI. We would have lost to a launch otherwise.
And, this was one of the closer DIplo victories I've had so far - I really wasn't sure if anyone but Spain and Germany votes for us, and if Spain or Tibet would have been eliminated a few turns earlier (in case of Tibet, during their war with Egypt), Diplo would have been out anyway.
The LoN is a nice option to have. It also offers you a way to end a game that is decided since ages, and no longer interesting. OTOH, you can as well loose pretty surprisingly; a strong AI builds/cascades to a 400spt wonder, and unlike UN, you have almost no time to react...

Given what you've said about launch dates, a OCC Deity 25K win would require one to be more active militarily in the course of the game. Given a strong AA, you'd have enough doublers to carry through the late game and could afford to field a decent army in the mid. BTW, why 25K instead of 20K?

Another option is the extended version of the game. Same culture, same tourism, more turns (much more expensive tech and shields).

why 25K instead of 20K?

Because 20k is a bit too easy. You can reach 25k about the same time you can reach 20k in unmodded.
Problem in OCCs is that several high-culture Wonders are not availble here (Pyramids, Crystal Palace, Las Vegas, national Library, to name a few), that's why it seems harder here.

Yeah, the only game where I had the patience to play it all the way through was that Demi game where I was trying to get maximum beakers in one city (ended up with 3107, missing a few wonders) where I hit 25K in 1832, I believe, pulling over 100 cpt. OCC misses some of the appeal of RandR - I love the "3of" wonders. A 3cc or 5cc would be very interesting.