Difficulty = Monarch
Civilization = Greeks
Map = Pangea
Barbs = sedentary
World Size = Small

Variant AW, Hard OCC That is we can never capture cities--No Armies.


Players

Aggie
Akots
Bed Head 7
Greebley
Mark

Well, I love the seemingly insane variants. So count me in :)

But I don't like the sound of roaming barbs for an OCC. I prefer sedentary or none...

This is very difficult. Check out Ankka's AWM 3CC game. I would suggest a small world instead. Standard is just insane.

Not a sign up yet.

However, barbs with a conquest game are a royal pain. I did a 5CC before with them, and the whole team hated it.

I'd be happy to change the barbs. I was thinking that the camps could be used to generate $$ but I usually hate barbs myself. Does sedentary generate camps?

We could go small map to, I was just thinking that might be too easy :lol: .

My plan was to have a mountanous world and use the hoplites early to pillage and stop workers and generally cause trouble with all the civs until we could assemble our SoD. Settings are aggressive for all civs as well so maybe they fight each other as well as us.

I'd be happy to change the barbs. I was thinking that the camps could be used to generate $$ but I usually hate barbs myself. Does sedentary generate camps?

No, that's the whole point. The camps are great, but the barbs coming from them are not. I found this out in MELI1-5CC AW Monarch myself. The main issue is the time and attention that you need to invest in these camps. But true, you can get promotions and money with barbs... Otoh: more than enough chances for promotions in an AW anyway.

Guess it means that we don't want to explore at all at the start? I'd almost like to be vikings, going for zeus, TGL and living on a small island...

Well I could go either way. It will be costly to support our armies and I was thinking that the barb income would be useful with only 1 city and a slow tech pace 25 gp is pretty nice. I've read other games where they generated a fair amount of income that way I've only played 1 AWE 5CC (we won easily) and can't remember if we had barbs but you usually keep some troops in the dead open space to wack settlers and once it is roaded it is pretty easy to just wack the camps too. But as I said my experience is limited. If we go without barbs though I would rather just turn them off although at monarch I guess you can get some good stuff. Decisions, decisions.

Well, let's see what team you can assemble and then see what the general feeling about barbs is. I also agree with microbe by the way. Standard size sounds very big for OCC AW.

What are the victory conditions by the way?

OK we will go with small map to try this out. Barbs up for discussion. Victory, conquest of course but all will be enabled. I don;t think it will go long enough for us to reach 20K and I don't see us building that many wonders anyway besides the colossus of course and maybe the GL or HG.

This will be very interesting to watch. I predict that unit costs will be your demise. Yep, this is the first SG I predict a loss for. You now have to prove me wrong. ;)

You may be right but we can live with a loss. I really don't think it will be that hard however the money is the reason I was leaning toward barbs. This has been tried before on reagent with a crappy start-link (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=84250&page=1&pp=20) (we will pick a crazy good start :D ). They lost but were doing quite well but left their city underdefended and were ambushed by a galley landing. We will not make the same mistake.

Always wanted to play OCC AW. Is it possible make it strict OCC, which means no armies? If the start is good, of course. And may be no barbarians indeed. And maximal aggression for the AIs.

Greeks might be not the best choice since commerical trait is wasted and Golden Age is despotic. It might be better to be Byzantines on an archipelago map may be even increasing difficulty to Emperor level. With Vikings it might be good as well but what to do then with these MGLs? Rush markets? Also, Monarch is rather easy difficulty but still scientific might be the best choice at least for a small map.

Not a signup, I'd like to know about the settings first.

Akots, would love to have you. Barbs are open for discussion. I see the sentiment is against so I guess we will go with sedentary. I anticipate that army support will be a big problem which is why I advocate barbs even though they are a royal pain they can generate a lot of income. I think Emperor is too much to start with but if we win we could move up. I think this will be quite difficult as is. As far as civ and settings I would really like to stick with the Greeks and pangea. The despotic GA is the price we pay but I think the Hoplite will do a lot of damage and is cheap. As far as Pelego I think it would be much more difficult for a OCC AW. Building and supporting enough boats to transport enough troops will be difficult and I’m hoping this game doesn’t really go much past Astronomy. As far as strict OCC I was thinking of doing that anyway so I’m fine with making it strict. I got a little nervous as I haven’t seen this done in a SG before so I included the army crutch.

Oh, if only I was good enough. I'll have to try this at regent soon. Good luck on this.

Mark1031 seems to scare people away with insane looking variants! I don't fear a loss, but instead like to see what we can pull off. I'm always open for new challenges (now I'm back playing civ...). However, I really don't think that emperor is an option, as akots suggests. Monarch sounds tough enough.

A small world is much better and this is doable given some luck. The problem is that with OCC, if you want to build GL you'd stop building units for a very long time, so it's probably only possible with an archipelago map.

On the other hand, without GL, you'd have a big problem supporting both army and research.

@bed-head: You don't have to be good to play OCC, just extremely accurate and think twice or even three times before doing anything.

I still see not much point in playng the Greeks.

@Mark: Lets make a deal: If we lose on this one, we ought to play Byzantines OCC on archipelago AWE. Sure we will be able to make enough units to block all the coast and can win with 20K.

If the deal is acceptable, I'm in. :lol:

We cannot win with UN, 100K or Domination, so this leaves extremely unrealistic Space, barely doable Conquest and highly improbable 20K. Playing on 20K might be very risky because, as microbe noted, interrupting unit production might be too dangerous. Also, Republic might be out of the list of options simply just because we cannot trade for luxuries but hard to tell if we manage to build MoM somehow during the Golden Age. Getting this otherwise silly wonder might be our only chance to survive and build a reasonable size city.

The start apparently has to be rather good - food bonus and luxury, on the river obviously, not in the center of the map as well and some little breathing space.

@bed-head: You don't have to be good to play OCC, just extremely accurate and think twice or even three times before doing anything.

Exactly! Micromanaging is brought down to a minimum, you don't have to worry about diplomacy and you also don't want to explore at the start. At all!

I like akots' deal, but I am tempted to go for vikings instead of byzantines in a next game, when we lose... Both are fine for me.

Well, Aggie and Mark1031 have beaten Sid repeatedly. I am not familiar with your record at that level, but I am very familiar with your performance in GOTM. I think I have reached the point where I can win on Deity with a decent start without much of a problem barring terrible luck. But I am still below the others interested, and I do not want to make an already difficult variant more difficult for the rest of the players.

OK Deal Akots that should be an interesting one. I have a start that I played out a bit and it looks good. I'll let someone else start. I'll wait till we get at least 1 more player.

Conditions:

Small world
80% water, Pangea
cold, Dry, 3 billion
Barbs Sedentary

Oh Come on Bed if you beat diety you'll do fine. We have a great start and the most important thing will be strategy on what to research, how to balance finances and when we are secure enough to go for a wonder. Which we will hopefully decide together. I think we need the Colossus and the GL. Well that and you better never loose a unit in battle :lol: .

All these plains, if only they were bonus grassland. But can be irrigated and in Golden Age we get the second shield. We can certainly try this one and see how it goes. If going for Colussus this implies we have to move settler to the coast losing wines.

Colossus means moving settler W and losing the wines.

Yep I think the Colossus is worth it. The wines will come online after the second expansion. I would recommend we delay the Hoplites and go with warriors and archers for a while to get our GA once we are larger. The key will be to get to a situation where we can pull 15 and 20 shields at different times. One Hop/archer per turn will be useful and the shield and growth potential here is large, we can max out pop and then mine the plains for shields.

Fine, if you'll take me, I'll happily join.

As for starting spot. From what we can see now, it is all plains and a couple FP if we move west. Assuming that, at size 12 we can get

Center square: 2spt
Two cows: 4spt
Two floodplains: 0spt
Six mined plains/forests: 12spt
Two irrigated plains: 2spt

So 1/turn archers and 1/turn hoplites won't be a problem, but this starting spot isn't as cushy as I imagined it would be when Mark said the start would be good. There don't seem to be any defensible positions nearby to the east. And with this spot, our GA will be an utter waste, as 20spt jumps all the way to 22spt. Maybe that isn't terribly important, though. I've only ever done OCC and AW seperately.

Well, I guess GA could get to 24spt if we work two fewer mined plains and work irrigated plains instead of floodplains.

I agree with bed_head7, especially with the fact that the start doesn't seem ultra great.

I'll tell you what. Why don't you start Aggie now that we have 4 and if you don't think it's reasonable after 20 turns we can generate some new starts. But I think you will like it from a number of standpoints once you found and explore a little, at least I did. By the way for strategy do we agree on the following. Research WC, it is AW so we will need some cheap early offense, usual minimal exploration, and I would say hold off doing Hoplites till we are larger and can benefit more from a GA.

STILL LOOKING FOR 1 MORE PLAYER

Good idea Mark.

I can agree with WC at max, (almost) no exploring. No hoplites to start with. Should I start with warrior-warrior-barracks-archer-archer-Colossus?

Got it! (but awaiting comments).

EDIT: I see that we have three cows!

I'd say Colossus when we have maxed out our troop number for our finances. I would really rather wait until our golden age for this. It is only Monarch and pangea so I think we have plenty of time to get it.

3 cows and a choke :D .

Turn 1 (3950 BC) We settle and start with a warrior. WC in 17 at 100%. Worker goes to cow in the south.

Turn 2-8 (3900 BC - 3600 BC) :sleep:

IT: Warrior->warrior.

Turn 9-10 (3550-3500 BC) Athens is size 2.

IT: A yellow warrior shows up from the north! Culture expansion reveals...furs!! Warrior->warrior. We need more troops now that we see another tribe.

Turn 11 (3450 BC) Alphabet and 7 gold gives us Masonry. I then declare war on Egypt. One warrior from our city covers the worker.

IT: Egyptian warrior fortifies on a mountain two tiles N of our city.

Turn 12 (3400 BC) :sleep:

IT: Warrior->warrior.

Turn 13 (3350 BC) We are losing money at 100% science and only have 3 gold. Therefore science goes to 70% (WC in 4, making no money).

Turn 14 (3300 BC) :sleep:

IT: A 2nd Egyptian warrior appears. Warrior->barracks.

Turn 15 (3250 BC) We are losing money again. But science can get to 50% and WC is still in 2.

IT: Two Egyptian warriors enter our lands.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MM2-3200BC.JPG

Turn 16 (3200 BC) Athens is size 3. Science to 10%, 3 gpt. I decide to fortify 4 warriors, which in theory would give me more chance to win vs two Egyptians than if I'd attack.

IT: One warrior loses 2 HP and promotes. Another warrior loses 1 HP and promotes :) We get WC.

Turn 17 (3150 BC) Next up is Iron Working at min science. We could only gain 5 turns if we'd go 60%. I hope that we can get The Wheel from another tribe. 3 warriors go north to climb the mountains.

Turn 18 (3100 BC) We climb on two mountains in the north and see that the Egyptian capital is VERY close!! We should be able to archer-rush them.

Turn 19 (3050 BC) :sleep:

IT: Two new Egyptian warrior show up.

Turn 20 (3000 BC) I take a laborer from the unworked cattle and put him on a grassland next to the river. We don't lose production speed but gain 1gpt. We are 1 turn from the barracks. We can get archers then and kill the Egyptians. That would then be nr 1 on our list :) I don't know if I did good, but I choose Iron Working, hoping that we can buy 1st level techs from other tribes. Unfortunately I had to go min science. Now we could increase the speed by 10 turns, only because of that extra gpt. I haven't done that yet! We probably shouldn't explore more than I did now.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MM2-3000BC.JPG

300 BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MM2-3000BC.zip)

Looks good Aggie. Way to get the rax in and hold off the Egyptains. We should be doing 10 shields very soon at size 5. It would seem an Archer rush is in order. As you can see already $$ support will be our main problem. I take it you are happy with our start. If so.

Akots ---UP
Bed Head7--On Deck

I like the start. Not extremely good, but certainly OK.

3 cows and 2 nearby lux and a choke point only OK. You are a hard man to please :lol: . I would agree with IW. I actually say that with Hoplites for defence we are best off with sword/archer/Hoplite stacks. Horses will be secondary and less important than swords.

I was thinking: where would the iron be? Not on top of the mountains in the north. Maybe in the east?

OK, IF we are on a peninsula with the Egyptians we can have our own piece of land for most of the game, once Cleo is gone! Then we are talking about a superb starting spot.

I really probably shouldn't add another game to my roster, but I will play.

Great. Welcome Greebley. It shouldn't take too much time, well at least in city management.

I'll try to play it today in the evening. Are we allowed to trade (no gpt deals) before declaring war or is it stirct AW?

And how many turns do I play? 10 or 20?

Why don't you take 20 and we can do 10/per after that. We can trade before declaring.

OK, playing now, will post shortly,

We are indeed in good shape.

[1] Athens goes to archer and warrior moves in for MP duty. We are at 7 spt and archer will be ready in 3 turns with growth in 5 turns. It is tough without Granary, so may be we should build one instead of Colossus?

[4] Egyptian warriors started to advance. The choice is limited, it was needed to attack them. We lose 2 warriors, they lose 3. Our military is down to 3 warriors. Luxuries increased in Athens to 30%.

[5] Archer ready but has to stay home for MP duty this turn.

[6] Warrior moves in, archer moves out. No activity from Egypt.

[7] Second archer ready and goes to reinforce our attacking force. Athens at +5fpt for growth every 4 turns.

[8] Thebes is in sight and has a spear as a defender. This would be a tough fight!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/OCC-AWM-2630BC.JPG

[9] Athens hits size 6. Newly built archers stays there for MP duty. We cannot build more units now, it is too early, hopefully we don’t need that many. Egypt has a worker coming to Thebes obviously willing to join the guy and whip another spear there. Starting on Colossus at 8 spt it will take 25 turns. Well, if something happens, there is always a possibility to switch to Granary or even walls.

[10] Archer attacks redlining Egyptian spear but dying. Regular warrior then attacks this redlined spear and we win. Thebes is razed and we gain a free worker. Egypt is dead then. A brutal game so far indeed. Slave and our military head back to Athens. We should not explore, not yet. I guess the slave might build a colony on furs apparently since we are not getting these into our cultural borders anytime soon. We also get some gold which certainly would help to feed our research.

Glorious battle in two fascinating scenes:

Act 1:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/OCC-AWM-2550BC.JPG

Act 2:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/OCC-AWM-2550BCa.JPG

[11] American warrior shows up. We are certainly not interested in making a contact yet especially with all our military coming from the north. Apparently, Abe is more advanced since F6 guy tells we are backwards. No wonder, they have scouts. Anyhow, rules are rules and we dial Abe. He is up CB, Wheel and Pottery, not willing to trade anything for our pathetic 14g and has New York built. Not the best time but we declare war to him.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/OCC-AWM-2510BC.JPG

[12] Warrior fortifies on a hill, what a relief.

[15] Athens hits size 7 making 11 spt, Colossus ready in 14 turns.

[17] We move archer close to warrior, he attacks and loses, so much for the American warrior-scout.

[18] Furs hooked up, luxuries down to 20%.

[19] Scouting archer spots ivory. Not a bad location at all.

[20] IW ready next turn, Colossus in 9. Looks good:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/OCC-AWM-2150BC.JPG


And finally the SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MM2-2150BC.SAV)

Gee, that will be a tough act to follow. Too bad we can't enslave units, as that would be a really hand trait with this variant.

Great going! Egypt gone, Colossus almost ours!. Not a bad location at all indeed :)

IMHO, we can win Philo race and build MoM. This is certianly doable considering pathetic state of our rivals and apparent safety of our location. If we pick Literature as a free tech, we might have a shot at the Great Library, though this can be tough indeed. But with size 12 city and hopefully in Golden Age (unfortunately still despotic) we can make it in no time and may be even grab another Ancient Age wonder if situation permits (SoZ?). Then, the guys will be coming hard to us since they would expand to that point. With Library in place, and Ceremonial Burial, we can hope for 20K defending with hoplites and having a few cats or may be swords for that matters. It will be ages before AIs will get their cities to size 12.

Great job Akots. I'm afraid this is going to be too easy. With wonders I think we should basically max out our troops then switch to wonder build. GL and SoZ for sure and maybe MoM. Since it's only Monarch I agree we should try for philosophy 1st. I would say writing next prolly @ min. Then Philo @ max.

Bed Head7 --UP
Greebly --On Deck

I agree with Mark on the path. Whether it's too easy...let's see first!

Oh, that first comment was my got it, though I cleverly disguised it so that no one but me would know.

We can run rather rapidly to Writing, less than 20 turns certainly, so no need to save cash, just go full speed. We'll save cash later when going for cheap techs like CB, Myst, Wheel and others.

I'm still thinking MoM will be the key wonder which allows us to have a size 12 city with essentially no luxury rate that early in the game. We can pick Literature as a free tech after Philo. I would not worry too much to keep in pace with AI before Education and even then on Monarch they will be rather slow. So, Great Library will be nice to have but apparently not mandatory.

I disagree. Unit costs will be a killer so we want free techs. I would get the GL ASAP and then shut off research. I would go min on writing and then use the $$ to support max on Philo and a large troop build during the research period. We should take it to the AI now. I would be happy if this never got out of the AA. We should be massing Hoplites and swords and let the blood flow. Or at least get Hops out pilliaging.

So, you want it to be Conquests? :)

I was thinking mostly of 20K still... ;)

IMO, we can go either way now, just have to decide which one. The problem is that the sooner we get Philo + MoM, the better we are off in terms of cash and unit support and unit build consequentally. And now we are safe and don't have to worry about anything. So, I'm still thinking MoM is a way to go both for Conquest and 20K and the sooner we get it the better.

Pre - I want to do the shield evaluation again.

At size 12

Center tile : 2fpt, 2spt, 4gpt
Three cows : 9fpt, 6spt, 4gpt
Two grass : 4fpt, 2spt, 4gpt
Two plains (irrigated) : 4fpt, 2spt, 4gpt
Five plains (mined) : 5fpt, 10spt, 9gpt
Total : 24fpt, 22spt, 27gpt

At size 12 (with Colossus)

Center tile : 2fpt, 2spt, 5gpt
Three cows : 9fpt, 6spt, 6gpt
Two grass : 4fpt, 2spt, 4gpt
Two plains (irrigated) : 4fpt, 2spt, 4gpt
Five plains (mined) : 5fpt, 10spt, 10gpt
Total : 24fpt, 22spt, 29gpt

As you can see, it doesn't do much for us in despotism

At size 12 (with Colossus and GA)

Center tile : 2fpt, 2spt, 6gpt
Three cows : 9fpt, 6spt, 7gpt
Two grass : 4fpt, 4spt, 6gpt
Two plains (irrigated) : 4fpt, 4spt, 6gpt
Five plains (mined) : 5fpt, 10spt, 15gpt
Total : 24fpt, 26spt, 40gpt

So we could get Great Library in 16 in despotism and GA, which isn't bad at all. However, Colossus doesn't do much for us in despotism since we can work almost exclusively river tiles. It may be valuable for us to actually self research towards Monarchy even once we have the Great Library. Depending on how many AI we know, that may actually be more profitable for us.

2110 BC (1) - Iron Working comes in, and select writing. In our current state, we can get it in 26 turns with no surplus. I prefer this to min with 6gpt surplus, especially since the colossus will speed it up significantly.

Iron is right next to where Thebes was, so definitely colonizable. But we need more slaves...

2070 BC (2) -

2030 BC (3) -

1990 BC (4) - Everything looks fine. In the IT, we will grow to size 8.

IT - See a yellow scout. Mongols? Then recieve a message that a warrior will be disbanded. Huh?

1950 BC (5) - Decide to stop. I don't think we should have lost the warrior, and can't really figure out why it even happened.

Before: (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MM2_1990BC.SAV)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MM2_treasury_before.jpg

After: (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MM2_1950BC.SAV)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MM2_treasury_after.jpg

If someone can explain it, I really would appreciate it. I would imagine that the calculation as to deficit spending occurs at some strange time IT, but there have been plenty of times where I have been at 0g and 0gpt and gone to -1gpt IT without a problem. It has been when the turn ends at 0g and negative gpt that something gets disbanded or sold.

Not really sure I usually don't play it that close to 0. NP we don't really need the reg warriors now anyway. Ya the Colossus won't really help in Despo but is really for later. The problem with full on research for writing is that we should be building military and heading out to disrupt the other AIs. I would advocate a minimum run since after that we can use the cash to fund full on for Philo. I just don;t think we can continue full on research for 4 straight techs and fight AW with 1 city. I would be building Hoplites now and sending them out to pillage and disrupt workers. Plant a hoplite on mountain near a city and they won't send out workers and they will probably not attack either. If we get our GA now I think it's fine it will be despotic anyway and we are big enough.

IMO Top priorities are connect Iron, build Hops and swords maybe a few more archers for defensive bombard, destroy cities/pillage improvements.

The warrior was nice to have for MP purposes. I don't know which four techs we are going for at full speed. I was only thinking of Writing, Philosophy, and Literature. Colossus will help when we get it now, and we can always tailor our research rate to unit costs.

I do agree with bed_head here. However, Mark also has a valid point IMO. We are certainly safe just because the AI needs about 20 turns to walk to us. With a large city, we can build archers every 2 turns maximum, so it is OK in case of a sudden assault. It still might be possible to avoid Despotic Golden Age and try not to build hoplites though. We can make it to Monarchy in no time with Great Library and a Library.

@Mark: It is only Monarch, AIs are rather stupid on this level compared to the Sid games you usually play. We don't have to cripple them off, they are already crippled. However, it is not Regent level and I doubt we can kill either one of them with one archer and a hoplite. ;)

@bed_head. Regarding the lost warrior: Apparently it is better to avoid coming too close to zero gold but usually it should be OK. Not really sure what happened, you must have lost one trade in the interturn due to citizen rearrangement by governor if you have not done it yourself. If you had a governor on, please then turn him off. If he was off, this is a weird.

The governor was off, of course, with emphasis on production as set by a previous player. It really shouldn't have happened, and seems somewhat buggy to me.

I guess I'll keep a small surplus in the bank from now on, but I still don't think we should have lost the warrior.

It happens when the city grows or borders expand. The governor will reassign the citizens then and gold can be lost.

The 4 techs are WC and IW which we have done already, we will now do writing and Philo. Lit for free and then stop.

I think we have a big advantage in the early going with 20 sp pikes and I think we should use it. Now that our city is up and ready to crank military I think we should. The troops can pillage, scare workers, force rushed spears and start taking down cities and settlers and generally just screw up and slow down the AIs. I think not using the Hops now and trying to time the GA is just not worth it relative to the early damage we can do. We don;t want our remaining opponents to get too big or progress too fast. I'd really like to end this before Feudalism if possible, Chivarly max. I don't expect to see Muskets. Also, If we can get positions on the resources, iron in particular, we will only face 2 attack units.

We are so broke we can't sustain research and military full on for 2 more techs thus 1 will need to be @ min and I would pick writing now so we can get a military machine up and bank some $$ for the philo run. Well that is my thinking.

Yes, but I posted the sceenshot of the treasury to show that no gold was lost. Our income went from 12 to 14 that turn, with an additional gold going to science and an additional gold towards happiness. It doesn't make sense, and even though it is only one warrior it still isn't right. I would like to have the warrior back, and until I find out that something legitimate happened, I would rather not continue. Or, though I imagine no one else would support this route, go back a turn and lower science 10% so that this doesn't happen.

Anyway, regardless of what happens with the disbanding, I'll lower science a bit so we can build a bit of a surplus.

We shouldn't underestimate the AI on monarch. If we allow them to grow they will get a lot stronger. I like the approach to keep them under pressure.

Regarding the warrior: no clue, especially when I read that we were doing min science!

Bed Do whatever you like play over or whatever. It does seem wierd if you had 12 gp.

Well, Mark said to do that, but I decided against min. I am going to go with something in between.

As no one knows why the warrior left, I wil pretend that I decided to switch science in 1990 instead of 1950.

The worker finished the road, which for some reason increased science and luxury income by 1, and reduced tax income by 1. Then your income became negative, and the warrior was disbanded (since the gold calculation occurs before the food calculation). Then your income increased when the city grew.

You'll notice this in the 1990 save by switching to the coast.

Huh. Strange that I have never run into this before.1990 BC (4) - Lower science 10%, get 1gpt.

1950 BC (5) - We don't get the 1g. What is going on here? (well, I know now) It still reports 1gpt as our income, but we don't get it.

We meet a Mongol scout. They have a worker! But we can't afford it. Sell Masonry for CB and 16g. Declare war. Kill their scout.

1830 BC (8) - Get exactly 200s to Colossus this turn. Start hoplite.

1750 BC (10) - Didn't cut science back all the way, but we are getting a couple gpt. Borders will expand in three turns, so we'll be able to get the wines hooked up. A hoplite and archer are headed towards America, I guess. Or at least where we met the scout. They can join up with the archer and warrior over there and maybe wreak some havoc.

Good job bed_head7!

What are the victory conditions by the way?
Victory, conquest of course but all will be enabled. I don;t think it will go long enough for us to reach 20K and I don't see us building that many wonders anyway besides the colossus of course and maybe the GL or HG.
So, you want it to be Conquests? :)

I was thinking mostly of 20K still... ;)

IMO, we can go either way now, just have to decide which one. The problem is that the sooner we get Philo + MoM, the better we are off in terms of cash and unit support and unit build consequentally. And now we are safe and don't have to worry about anything. So, I'm still thinking MoM is a way to go both for Conquest and 20K and the sooner we get it the better.
I thought that we already decided to go for conquest :confused:

We shouldn't underestimate the AI on monarch. If we allow them to grow they will get a lot stronger.

The start of an OCC is always the easy part as you outgrow the AI (in population, income and production). Things will get a lot harder later.

...I thought that we already decided to go for conquest :confused:

We can try conquest certainly but we may fail. With choke and hoplites we might be able to survive safely to Cavalry in our little corner. It is always good to have some backup.

I don't think seriously we can raze many cities, not with hoplites, horsemen are needed and in numbers. On Monarch, there will be 2 spears guarding each city. No doubt, we should be able to seriously cripple the AI however, at least those which are the closest to us. May be even eliminate one or two really early.

Is it Pangea? I mean true Pangea without any subcontinent?

Regarding the lost warrior: Tim is probably right. If a worker finished road and this unroaded tile has been worked, we have lost this 1 g due to rounding towards science from tax apparently. Worker jobs finish first, before the income is calculated. After the income was calculated, warrior was disbanded. Then, the city grew in size and rounding error backfired and has brought us +2gpt.

Yes, we can fail. I don't see this as a problem at all. I vote for any wonder that will not get us of the conquest path. Great Library, MoM both are extremely valuable for conquest as well.

About pangaea: I assume that we won't know until later in the game. But we must expect islands at least. Little islands shouldn't be an issue. A subcontinet would be disaster for a OCC conquest AW game though.

How's about SoZ? There is ivory within reach, we may very well build colony there aslo. Might be hard to defend it though.

Of course! Forgot about that one! We can always try. AC's would be awesome for us, allowing to go for improvements instead of military.

If guess that we'd need to guard the ivory with a decent amount of troops. Killing everyone close and razing cities of needed.

Greebly UP

Mark On Deck

I think you guys give the AI too much credit. We can do Swords in 2 and Hops/Archers in 1 eventually. The key is to get out and take it to them early. Pillage and take cities when possible. I think each civ should get 2 Hops for pillaging/worker supression. Stay in forests and on mountains. Then stacks of 4 swords/1 archer and 2 Hops would be my choice (or maybe just archers when we can do 1/turn). These stacks should be very good on defence and able to take cities NP. If this gets to knights we are in trouble. Conquest baby!!

@Mark: First civ can be certainly disposed of in this manner. I doubt though that it might be possible to advance further only with archers since we might be facing cities on hills and size over 6. However, if we were Persians, this would be the best choice with spear/archer/Immortal combo. For city on a hill defended by 2 spears, we need at least 7 archers in full health or 6 swords. Considering that the AI will whip additional spears at our approach. It might be better to go for horsemen instead of swordsmen if there are horses around. Especially if we want to save on unit upkeep.

@Aggie: It is possible to switch production to wealth to provide for unit support if we go way over the reasonable unit? With SOD of +15 units we can certainly succeed.

@Aggie: It is possible to switch production to wealth to provide for unit support if we go way over the reasonable unit? With SOD of +15 units we can certainly succeed.

That would give us 2 gpt extra, would it not? Looks to be an option only if we get SoZ...

I got it. My SG games all came up at once, so I have only glanced through the posts so far. I will take more time to read tomorrow and play tomorrow night.

Preturn: No changes

IBT: Pink unit shows up

1725 AD: Declare War on France No trades.

Early: Kill the French Warrior.

Mid: Build a temple. Get Writing, start Philosophy at full.

Late: Roading to Iron

Notes:
We have 3 workers:
One to go to the Iron and build a Colony for swords to take out France.
One to start a road toward the Ivory.
One to improve our lands.

After the next Hopolite we can start building swords.

BTW, I think min research is a waste in AW. You can't afford to wait 50 turns for a tech.

I think we want to be very agressive at the start. Build swords and go for France. Once Unit costs is high then start the GLib.

Pre turn. Looks good except we cannot support our research. Crazy as it seems I switch to wealth. Philo in 8 at –3gpt

1475: zzz

1450: Wack French warrior flawlessly

1425 Iron is online. Move up to Orleans

1400: French draft in Orleans :D . Wack Archer . 2 archers and warrior not enough to take Orleans so move on to start more trouble. Back to Hop production. Philo in 5.

1375: Wines on line wack French archer loose 1 hp. They won’t attack the Hop with archers, as I expected.

1350: zzz

1325: Pillage French tile.

1300: Philo in 1

1275: Philo in take lit. Research OFF. No SGL as I hoped. Oh well. Hoplites on the choke.

We can do Hops in 2 now and swords in 2 on the next expansion. I’d say we max out our Army and then do TGL.


Agggie UP

Akots On Deck

Got it. But it will not be before Wednesday I think. Why aren't we going for Math and AC? And shouldn't we build MoM now, which we might switch to Seuz when this opportunity comes?

Got it. But it will not be before Wednesday I think. Why aren't we going for Math and AC? And shouldn't we build MoM now, which we might switch to Seuz when this opportunity comes?

Why not indeed? A couple of units and go to MoM. I wish there were a prebuild instead of a temple. :confused:

We will get math from the GL. I don't think it is worth doing any more research, we can't afford it. Better to use the $$ for military. Max out Military, Start GL. Use up military, rebuild military and start SoZ. Repeat again for MoM if desired.

I think that my approach will work as well. I believe that we can grab SoZ, TGL AND MoM. I really don't see why we can't afford to go for one more tech which will give us the strongest unit in the Ancient Age.

I'd go Math at max, securing SoZ and then switch to MoM/TGL. We are sure to get TGL anyway, so why not first build SoZ and MoM (along with the military)?

We now need military first. I will probably be building 4 swords and 2 hoplites in my ten. But still I'd like a decision on on whether or not Math at max. EDIT: Not max research, but research in a pace to get Math at the exact time that we would be able to finish SoZ.

PS. Won't we be in a GA very very soon? And won't this change things? We would get more income and a faster path to Math/SoZ.

I like going for math now, as SoZ is unit producting. We'll get 3-4 AC during production of the great library, depending on whether we are in GA or not, then 1-2 more during MoM. It seems too valuable a wonder to wait for the AI to research. This is Monarch, after all, so it could take them awhile.

I would love to have the SoZ sooner rather than later. I just don't think that it is worth delaying building units to do the research when we need the GL anyway. I think the AI will do math. We can build attack 3 units now @ 2-turn each (after next expansion). It is not units we will ultimately need but $$. Any way it is a group decision so Akots can decide bases on our input and current circumstances.

I just don't think that it is worth delaying building units to do the research when we need the GL anyway.

Why would we need to delay unitsfor research? We'd only delay for SoZ, which will give us units until late Medieval times. I'm afraid that we get our SoZ far later if we count on the TGL. Maybe even not at all, if another tribe has ivory as well...

I really think we need some swords to go out and damage the enemy. I don't believe we will have the time to build all 3 wonders before units will start coming in and interupting our builds. The AI will grow in Monarchy and become a real Civ if we wait that long to attack. I think we have a chance to damage them now and should do so.

Once we have some swords out and destroying the enemy (unit rates are high) we can go and build some wonders. Sitting back for that long and allowing the AI to grow is a mistake, IMO.

OK. I will NOT research Math, build 4 swords and a hoplite and hand it over to the next player :(

EDIT: it's just that I hate slow moving units...

EDIT2: Playing now...

IT: An archer from Orleans attacks our hoplite and doesn't do damage. We are in a Golden Age.

Turn 1 (1225 BC) We make 13 gpt at no science and 10% lux.

To be continued/waiting for comments (does this change anything?)...

I guess it didn't matter and I didn't want to push my little discussion too far, so...

IT: We see a Mongolian archer and a French warrior. Athens: sword->sword.

Turn 2 (1200 BC) SoD fortifies outside French borders. Archer kills Mongolian archer and loses a HP.

Turn 3 (1175 BC) :sleep:

IT: sword->hoplite.

Turn 4 (1150 BC) Athens is size 9. We make 20 spt.

IT: hoplite->sword.

Turn 5 (1125 BC) Archer kills French warrior and loses 2 HP.

Turn 6 (1100 BC) Vet archer kills reg archer, losing 2 HP.

IT: Athens->sword->The Great Library.

Turn 7 (1075 BC) :sleep:

Turn 8 (1050 BC) Archer kills French warrior, losing 3 HP. Hoplite kills an American scout.

Turn 9 (1025 BC) Vet archer kills reg warrior, losing 1 HP. But it promotes.

IT: A mini SoD of the Mongols goes south.

Turn 10 (1000 BC) The SoD has two archers and a warrior. Sword takes out a warrior and loses 2 HP. A 2nd sword also loses 2 HP killing an archer.Up north an elite archer kills a reg archer, losing 1 HP.

TGL in 17. We can now soon assemble the troops and send them up north. Ivory is connected within 6 turns.

Math is known by more than two other tribes. I still vote to go SoZ after TGL.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MM2-1000BCmap.jpg

I wouldn' be against spending some money on researching Math. There is no guarantee on the GLib though it is likely we will get it. Math is also important for Catapults which reduces losses.

I don't think we should build so many units that when our GA ends we are running a big deficit at 100% cash. That would be bad. So I would say build the number of units you were going to build before the GA and then start the GLib (or some other wonder) and spend the GA money on getting math.

Edit: this was a cross post. Looks like you had the same idea anyway.

Why will it take 6 turns to connect Ivory? We don't need to road the Ivory first - just build the Colony.

Why will it take 6 turns to connect Ivory? We don't need to road the Ivory first - just build the Colony.

:blush: How can I make this mistake twice in two days? Luckily I just started roading this one...

Got that.

Please let me take a look later on on what is going on in the game, I'll post the summary and will play after the comments. It does not look good from Aggie's post but I cannot find what went wrong from the preceding posts (except for a temple).

I'm warning that I'm neither Cartouche Bee nor Randy number 2, so there will be no killing of elite spearmen with regular warriors and razing size 7 cities on the hill. If one might be interested, take a look at the recent GOTM spoiler:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=110116&page=5&pp=20

After taking a look at the save it looks like it is bad. I'm a rather pessimistic player, so don't take this personal or too close to the heart. First, we have temple which we don't need. Second, we have tiles improved that are not on the river and tiles which are on the river are not improved. Third, with MoM we can get to size 12 with luxury rate same as we have now without Golden Age. Fourth, all 3 AI we know have Math and don't have Writing. There is also England which we have not met yet but I bet they also have Math. Researching Math without a library might be a big waste. But if we don't want to research anything later on it might be OK.
Our military sucks big, we have only hoplite, 2 archers and warrior on the offensive. Others are on the defensive apparently against a Mongol archer. There is absolutley no rush with Great Library. I just don't see now the need of frantically building it and sacrificing everything. Bad is that our Golden Age has been essentially wasted. IMO, we had a good opportunity of doing the Republic slingshot at an extremely low risk with a few units available for defense. I wish we had a granary instead of temple or 2 extra swordsmen. That was a very bad move. Alas, we did not have Pottery.

After some rant, going back to constructive thinking on how the game can be saved.

IMHO, we need another worker to improve the land and to build road further ahead and colony to another luxury if we encounter one. It also make sense to postpone the build of TGL and go for either MoM or SoZ. We are 7 turns away from either. MoM will allow us to grow to size 12 and increase the productivity accordingly. SoZ we can get at 70% in 6 turns running at -8gpt. This is a good option and allows us to have a strong unit good both in defense and attack. We can also split the offensive stack and advance with hoplites to harass not only France but whatever lies beyond them. Our lands are certainly safe upto Mapmaking since I doubt that meaningful offense can come to the choke in the near future.

It would be also nice to know how many turns of the Golden Age is left. We have also no guard on the iron colony and since wheel is around, it can be overrun anytime by a barbarian horseman. It also might be there is another luxury on our peninsula but it has not been explored yet.

Please let’s discuss the ideas, I will play tomorrow evening.

IMO, to continue with the wonders we need to dispatch a hoplite per each civ to pillage. And SoZ seems the only way out. And we cannot get to size 12 at 10% luxury rate with 3 luxuries and temple: size 11 is the limit. It might be better to use offensive troops (archers and swords) in the open to attack and chop the forest near ivory colony. After SoZ and with the help of AC, it might be a good idea to start the offensive against France with a stack of units covered with hoplite while defending against the other attackers the AI will be sending. It all reminds me of an RTS game of Command and Conquer or KKND type. Who played knows. There you had a mission to survive for a certain time. But our mission is more tough since we need not only to survive but strike back and no reinforcement will come from the heavens except AC units. Well, if we go way off the limit with them, we can always stay in Anarchy. :)

I clearly mentioned that we got a GA in my very first IT. Also: that archer will probably not be taking on the fortified hoplite and if so, what's bad about that? I just killed two units with swords there.

A hoplite per civ to pillage? Do you really think that hoplites won't be attacked?

Did you READ my turnlog?

That was MY rant. I hope to come with constructive comments again in a few hours.

I understand you arguments Akots but a few things to remember. First I care not about size 11 or 12. All I care about is 15 or 20 spt. The Republic slingshot is useless as this is AW. The main reason I want the Library is that I want to get to Monarchy. It is AW so we can never again trade. As you said can't build granery without pottery. As in all civ games everything is a trade off lets all try to remember that. I see no point in researching math as we need the GL, have started the GL and will get it from that. Our biggest problem will always be unit support costs. Any $$ earned from GA and no research will be used in the future to fund excess unit support. IMO any $$ spent on research now is wasted. I personally would have built more units, before the GL run but no big deal. When it completes I would as I said max out units for our income and then start either MoM or SoZ. If other civs had ivory they would have started the SoZ so I think we are safe. I also am not that concerned about the SoZ. I realize the attractivness of the unit but with Hoplites for defense we will do well with Swords/archers under Hop cover. I agree on the Hop pillagers. They will be attacked but if they go in 2s with 2 archers under and stay on favorable terrain they will do damage. Also Barbs were senantary so colony is safe from them. PS The only future research I would do in min on currency once math comes in from the GL as this is the last tech researched and it may take a while for 2 civs to come up with it. Especially if we do the kind of damage I hope to do.

In this post I broke down akots' comments into seperate statements and gave my point of view on those. I did this because I think that all points need a clear view from the whole team.

"After taking a look at the save it looks like it is bad. I'm a rather pessimistic player, so don't take this personal or too close to the heart."

Well, I hope that you also don't take my comments too close to the heart!

"First, we have temple which we don't need."

I agree. I wouldn't have built it, but didn't want to break it down. I haven't seen enough common ground on this one to take such an action.

"Second, we have tiles improved that are not on the river and tiles which are on the river are not improved."

True, but I see this as a minor issue.

"Third, with MoM we can get to size 12 with luxury rate same as we have now without Golden Age."

Yes, I like MoM! But I felt that the team wanted TGL, then SoZ and then maybe MoM.

"Fourth, all 3 AI we know have Math and don't have Writing. There is also England which we have not met yet but I bet they also have Math. Researching Math without a library might be a big waste. But if we don't want to research anything later on it might be OK."

England might have math, but they have to find us. We have to cross Fench territory to meet England. That wouldn't work with the small stack we had up there. I had to retreat.

"Our military sucks big, we have only hoplite, 2 archers and warrior on the offensive. Others are on the defensive apparently against a Mongol archer."

The other troops are going north to join with the rest! But when a mini-SoD of the Mongols shows up you have to fight them off. We are fighting vs three other civs atm. They -surprise- are not waiting for us.

"There is absolutley no rush with Great Library. I just don't see now the need of frantically building it and sacrificing everything."

I didn't want to waste our GA. I figured that now we have a GA I'd better build something. The team's decision was to go for TGL. I don't see anything bad about this decision. Although I liked to make other choices.

EDIT: Getting TGL fast also means the opportunity to build SoZ fast and get AC early.

"Bad is that our Golden Age has been essentially wasted. IMO, we had a good opportunity of doing the Republic slingshot at an extremely low risk with a few units available for defense."

There was nothing I could do to avoid the GA. The hoplite stood next to Orleans and was attacked by a French archer.

"I wish we had a granary instead of temple or 2 extra swordsmen. That was a very bad move. Alas, we did not have Pottery."

True. We would have loved a granary.

"IMHO, we need another worker to improve the land and to build road further ahead and colony to another luxury if we encounter one."

OK.

"It also make sense to postpone the build of TGL and go for either MoM or SoZ. We are 7 turns away from either. MoM will allow us to grow to size 12 and increase the productivity accordingly."

I started with TGL. I see no problems in switching to SoZ or MoM.

"SoZ we can get at 70% in 6 turns running at -8gpt. This is a good option and allows us to have a strong unit good both in defense and attack."

Yes, I agree. See my previous posts about SoZ. But I didn't disagree enough with the team to go for it anyway. I left the door open for SoZ in my ten turns.

"We can also split the offensive stack and advance with hoplites to harass not only France but whatever lies beyond them."

The hoplites will be attacked and beaten sooner rather than later. But you can try and find out.

"Our lands are certainly safe upto Mapmaking since I doubt that meaningful offense can come to the choke in the near future."

Relatively safe! I have seen plenty of troops going south. I reported them all in my 10. We can't just advance and ignore the ivory and choke.

"It would be also nice to know how many turns of the Golden Age is left."

10 turns! I forgot to make the text bold, but I thought I was pretty clear.

"We have also no guard on the iron colony and since wheel is around, it can be overrun anytime by a barbarian horseman."

Don't we have -no barbs- as a setting? But you are right. It needs a defense.

"It also might be there is another luxury on our peninsula but it has not been explored yet."

True, but I focussed on getting a stack of units and sending them up north.

"IMO, to continue with the wonders we need to dispatch a hoplite per each civ to pillage."

I don't see how one hoplite can be safe in enemy territory. I assume you mean something else?

"And SoZ seems the only way out."

I don't see us in some sort of deep hole. I think we are doing well. Maybe not great. But well.

"And we cannot get to size 12 at 10% luxury rate with 3 luxuries and temple: size 11 is the limit."

I think we will get MoM if we want. We will also get a market at one point.

"It might be better to use offensive troops (archers and swords) in the open to attack and chop the forest near ivory colony. "

Good idea.

"After SoZ and with the help of AC, it might be a good idea to start the offensive against France with a stack of units covered with hoplite while defending against the other attackers the AI will be sending."

I thought we were doing this already. But SoZ will help.

"Well, if we go way off the limit with them, we can always stay in Anarchy. :)"

I hope that this is not allowed in this SG :)

I don't think that we are doing a bad job. But I also don't like the temple. We could have used the shields to build more military. That said, that military would have been more archers. Swords only came available during my 10.

I made my points before my turns. I'm not going to repeat them. I will keep on giving my pow, but will follow the team's decisions, because we are playing this game with some very good players who also have excellent points for other options. I hope I did in my 10...

I had a totally different approach in mind at the start. But since this is a SG we are talking about a team effort which automatically means that things don't always go the way you expect. Often this is a good thing.

@Aggie: All your comments make perfect sense to me! I sorry I did not see the short post before the main turnlog about the Golden Age.

Lets just decide on something. Demogame voting type if needed. Choices we have:

1. Continue building TGL (17 turns to go). Defend with whatever units we got. Don't seek contact with England, just try to survive. I'm itching to upgrade a vet warrior to sword and send him to the front as well. Looks like we are facing a lot of units according to Aggie's post. In AWM AI sends them in pairs every 4-5 turns which is barely enough to heal our wounded.

2. Research Math and get SoZ ready in 7, build more units to the top of unit support to be on the safe side and start on TGL. If we hit size 11 make sure build worker before we grow to size 12. Play more aggressively and try to advance to French territory and may be raze a city or two there.

I'd wait to hear what bed-head and Greebley have to say.

Regarding Mark's comment all I can say that we might not survive at our present state of military if we go for TGL. We will probably certainly lose the offensive stack if no reinforcements come and we might lose ivory colony as well. May be not on my turns and may be not even on subsequent 10 turns. Are we willing to take these chances?

Needless to say that I'm for option 2...

I like number two better as well.

OK if we can get math and not lose any shields from TGL in building the SoZ I'm for it. If not I would let TGL complete. MY reason is that we should have built up more military before starting TGL and I too want AC. Also, I want to start min research on currency ASAP. A market will be crucial and it will take forever to get it from TGL

I guess I am not a big fan of MoM. It seems too many shields to be worthwhile. We want a bigger army and adding a 3rd wonder (past SoZ and GLib) doesn't seem the way to go about it. Also, a temple is worth as much as MOM, isn't it? IIRC, it is +3 happiness for 200 shields. If so a temple is slightly more efficient than MoM in terms of shields(+1 for 60, +3 for 200). I don't follow why MoM would be be good and a temple not. We are going to need both to run no Lux at all I suspect. I am guessing the temple got built when it would save us from running a higher lux rate.

I guess I would only build MoM if we have SoZ and GLib and as many units as we want to build.

Why on earth would we want to do the Republic slingshot? Republic is a completely useless tech.

For SoZ vs GLib, doing either one is fine for me. The GLib will probably wait so if we can get Math in time, then I would go for SoZ. It does have some risk though. I have seen the AI get Lit eearly.

For SoZ vs GLib, doing either one is fine for me. The GLib will probably wait so if we can get Math in time, then I would go for SoZ. It does have some risk though. I have seen the AI get Lit eearly.

True, but this is monarch and we have a very big city.

@Greebley: MoM is free and needs no maintenance but brings cash in 1000 years as tourist attraction which is not that far away. And it is less than temple and cathedral together but with same benefit. And we actually benefit from having it since we can decrease the luxury rate down to zero. With market this would mean size 12 city with zero luxury rate. The bigger city means more units, more gold, and more production.

So, I guess it is option number 2 that wins the poll. I'll play in a few hours.

Looking at the game we are going to have to dump a lot of sheilds to get SoZ first. We will be well over 200 before we can get math (10 turns at max). We may need to go for the GLib after all.

-------------------------------------------------------

As for MoM, you have already complained about us not having units and you want to add yet another wonder to the list before we do anything? I will pay 10% lux to be able to have 7 swords rampaging through my enemies cities.

Sure if we are max unit support and nothing else to build, then MoM is great We may even be able to to this. But putting off our attack for 12+ more turns is not a good idea, IMO.

I agree with Greebley. Also if we would waste sheilds I would definately not go Math SoZ (we would be wasting both $$ and shields which I find very painfull). It is definately not worth it IMO. Let's just complete TGL build some troops and then do SoZ we really must start wacking the AIs. Note this makes my vote option 1.

I'm afraid my vote switches to #1 too if shields are wasted.

How the shields can be wasted? The cannot be wasted! I've already posted that it is possible. :confused:

Preturn check. Research to Math at 90% in 5 losing 14 gpt. 200 shields will be ready in 7 with growth in 4 turns and looks like we can make it without losing anything. Warrior sent scouting.

[1] Colony on ivory founded. Math in 4.

[2] Attacking stack healed and moved into French lands. Will go to Orleans or Paris depending on circumstances. Both cities are size 1.

[3] Math in 2, 200 shields in 4.

[4] Elite archer dies to spear in Orleans but the spear is redlined, so vet archer attacks and we raze the city gaining a slave. Slave runs for life back to ivory. Athens hits size 10, Math in 1 at +7gpt and 200 shields in 3.

[5] Math come up, research to zero. Build switched to SoZ ready in 2 turns. Meet English spear/sword combo. They don’t have Math but are up on us with Wheel, Mysticism and Pottery. Pottery would be nice, if we get MGL, he can rush a granary. Trade Pottery + 24 g for Math and declare war.

[6] Kill Mongol archer with sword.

[7] Athens builds SoZ, goes to hoplite. Archer attacks French settler/spear pair, redlines but wins and we gain 2 slaves. Slaves run to ivory. Sword kills another Mongol archer.

[8] Hoplite-hoplite.

[9] Another hoplite to build.

[10] And another. Lose warrior to Mongol warrior which is redlined and finished by hoplite which promotes to elite. Sword redlines but kills Enligh spear. Glorious city of Athens needs 14 food to grow to size 11 (2 turns on grassland and one on plains. But next turn our GA should end.

The glorious city makes 17gpt (2gpt from Colossus as attraction) and 20 spt and we have 213g in treasury so for the next 40 turns we can build only units. Considering there will be some losses, AC from SoZ should not break our budget. After hitting size 12 we need to hire a scientist apparently to make it on minimal run to Currency or have increase the luxury rate.


Screenie with Athens:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/OCC-AWM-750BC.JPG

And the battleground:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/OCC-AWM-750BCa.JPG

SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MM2-750BC.SAV)

The upload server does not seem to function normally, so the save is attached here as well.

Got it, but can't play it just yet. I am up in a few places. Nice turns akots.

We are average vs Mongols and strong vs the rest. Sounds good, doesn't it? :)

We now have a lot of hoplites but almost no offensive troops. This means that we can go pillaging, but we want to kill troops coming south too. We will get attackers from SoZ, but I think that we need a couple of swords too. I'd go for 4 swords now and then TGL.

EDIT: We make 20 spt and 17 gpt, but next turn our Golden Age will be gone. So in fact we are already doing less than 20 spt. We won't finish the hoplite in 1.

Good job Akots. Let's now take it to them now. Could we do 1 scientist on currency as it may be a long time before we get it and market is quite important IMO. If those military reports are correct we should finish this soon with swords and AC can catch up as they become available.

I'd prefer 10% research over the scientist. We need to grow and produce shield.

Other way to make money: tourism.

Agree on growth but as long as we pull 15 shields we are OK there. We cannot do 30 and we probably need more offensive units. Form the sound of the military report I think we can start to just roll over the AIs.

@Mark: when you say 15 spt is enough you are referring to building units alone? OK, we can delay TGL. But I would really have liked horses in our little SoD's.

I actually think this will be over before we need to build the GL. Maybe I'm too optimistic but I’m used to being able to overrun civs that are strong compared by using massed forces and better tactics. With 2 spears/town I think 15-20 swords should do the trick with AC doing clean up in the back lines. We shall see how it unfolds but I think military for the next 30 turns is in order.

We need to calculate our shields and gold for when we are not in a GA. We will probably be right around 15 shields when the GA ends with a Max of 16 or 17.

I am also guessing we may not be able to afford 11-15 swords in which case we should just choose the maximum. We will want do disband reg warriors too. We will see when the GA ends.

This team is split into two camps I feel. One the one hand we have players who think that we can overrun the AI before the time of knights. On the other hand we have players who probably think that it will take a bit longer, which makes TGL needed. I'd say that TGL is only needed in a knights scenario.

I think that we have to make a choice on which way to go.

Mark1031 is starting to convince me that we need nothing more than swords, AC's, hoplites (and I'd say horses) to conquer the world. That would mean NO MoM and NO TGL.

The rush option has a possible escape, being the TGL. When we see that we will fail we can always start TGL to advance towards knights. That could go worng. The AI could get SGL's!

I think we should maximize the number of swords (0 gpt) and then build the GLib. SoZ will replace lost units. This essentially follows both ideas. If the swords fail we have the GLib. We also have as many swords as we can.

My opinion is that we will need the GLib, but want to do as much damage now as we can.

I second Greebley. I'm not saying we ignore TGL if needed. We will at some point max out troop numbers and that will be a good time for the GL, I wouldn't advocate wealth or anything at that point. It's just that from the sound of things we may end up not needing it that much. I'm not too worried about loosing TGL. If someone else gets lit I'd say we switch and I think we can beat them to it on Monarch. The only thing to fear is a SGL which is low probability.

Yes, let's go kill them! But we need hoplites for cover and pillage and they better be elite and fully healed before going into the enemy territory. Elite hoplites will not be attacked especially on defensive bonus terrain.

The worst problem as I see it is delivering the troops to the AI. It might be worth to set two defensive groups NW and NE of France and try to build road north from ivory as far as possible. Watch also for AIs getting literature. They might cascade to TGL as well and it can be rather unpleasant but for 30 turns IMO, we are safe. And definitely I'd go for horsemen over swords if only we had the techs just because of higher survival rate. I'm sure AI has them, so we can try to research them since the price will be very low. Or may be currency.

We have a few hoplites for advance and scouting and they then can be followed by offensive troops. In the current situation TGL can certainly wait. We will gain only a handful of techs from it anyhow.

The game will not last to knights hopefully. However, England has iron and it might be a good idea to find their source and pillage it. Don't know if any of them have horses. AI usually does not build chariots and may be we will see horsemen and then can decide where to go first. For now, England may be an important adversary. France is certainly crippled. Seems a good idea to dispatch a hoplite/sword pair to watch for their settlers which will be probably covered by spear and kill them as soon as they move out of Paris. But during my turns, Paris did not grow. Apparently Joanne was pop-rushing spears or archers.

A really interesting game. I like your decision to get Zeuss. Its interesting that you can generate cavalry while not actually having horses or I assume, having learned horeback riding. Which begs the question have you learned the wheel. Never mind that, its just that I don't see any horses. I was actually thinking about trying this variant myself. From what I've have I seen I think speed is the answer. That makes AC and horsemen an interesting combination if you tring to tie it with an ML and/or GA. I ramble..good luck

750 BC (0) - Switch Hoplite to Sword. Start on Currency at 10%.

730 BC (1) - Kill English spearman, swordsman, and archer, losing our archer. MM in Athens to get sworsman in one turn.

710 BC (2) - Get our first AC, in addition to the sword. MM back to growth in one.

650 BC (5) - Lost a sword, killed an English sword.

630 BC (6) - Lose our elite sword to a spearman on flatlands, then kill it with our AC.

590 BC (8) - Two veteran swords beat two French archers and promote.

570 BC (9) - Kill various units of various nationalities. No losses, but an AC retreats to an archer.

550 BC (10) - Not much.

There are a couple of Mongol horses headed south. Actually, might only be one. I killed the other. Anyway, there are fast units out there. Our road network is improving slowly. Been pillage Paris. Athens shows swordsman in three, but will built it in two turns with growth. All I did was build swords during my turns, as I didn't see the need to do much else.

Nice set of turns it seems. Would be nice to have a view of the battlefield. I love pics :)

EDIT (slightly OT): If have been a lurker for 4 months and missed pics in a lot of SG's. What happened to them? SG's without pics are a boring read...

I agree completely on that. I try to include a screenshot in every post. However, I occasionally make the mistake of printing the screenshot, then copying my notes into the browser, opening IfranView, trying to paste image, and then realizing my latest copy got rid of the screenshot. This happened here. Had you seen the screenshot, you would see a stream of hoplites across the stretch of land between us and France, the purpose being to keep units from sneaking up on our workers.

Edit (another OT): A lot of old classics uploaded screenshots, but the screenshots have been removed. It ruins the story! Some of the most interesting games are filled with pictures, and when the log or story refers to the picture but there isn't one, it is no fun to read.

Nice work Bed. Greebley is UP.

Ok, I got it.

What about this :whipped: :

Preturn: No changes. Out of curiosity why did we go for Currency before the Wheel? I would have gone for the Wheel to see if we had horses anywhere. More fast units would be useful. We could have actually done that faster than Min and not have to wait so long to get it.

IBT: Some units advance.

530 BC: Kill 2 Archers. Move injured sword out of France territory. One slightly injured sword didn't seem sufficient to take the capitol, so it will heal up rather than continuing any attack.

Get a Leader.

IBT: Build a Sword. Get another Ancient Cav.

510 BC: We could rush a Granary or Library. Neither are appealing. I think I will keep it for when we get Currency for the Market.

490 BC: Our Elite* dies attacking a 3 hp Spear

470 BC: Kill a warrior.

450 BC: Attack a Horse but it retreats

430 BC: Lose a sword attacking a Spear.

410 BC: Kill an Archer

390 BC: Units are starting to show up in greater numbers. I built some Catapults to lessen unit losses.

370 BC: Advance forces enter Frenc Territory.

350 BC: Kill an Archer landed by Boat and a Spear.
Move next to an English stack. They have swords.

Notes:
After we build the next sword, I suggest we start on the GLib. We are at +1 gold gold.

I think the easy part is over. I wish we could have done more damage before our enemies were this strong.

I feel our advance force should continue forward and ignore everything but cities. Killing random units can be done with forces closer to the capitol. If we don't destroy the cities, then we will be hit by more and more stuff.

The front line
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MM2_BC350.JPG

Pre: Looks good. Adjust Athens to get 2 more gpt.

IBT: Lose Hop to 2 English swords and 3 slaves with it.

330: The slaughter @ Paris: Lose vet sword to reg spear and promote it, AC redlines retreats takes off 2 HP. AC Dies takes off 1 HP. Reg sword wins Reg sword wins. Elite sword dies taking no HP. AC dies taking off no HP. Paris Holds. This is the worst RGN luck I have ever had.

310: Take Paris losing 1 sword against 1 elite spear. Sheesh.

290: Wack French and Mongol archers. No losses.

270-150: Not doing much but hitting a few troops headed for us. No progress on cities.

Totally crappy set of turns and terrible RGN luck @ Paris. We do have the back lines cleared and have replenished our stack but we really need to move forward. Mongols are the big power. We can’t get pults through the jungle so they will have to be for back line defense.

Got it. For tonight (CET) or tomorrow morning. So there's time for discussion if needed.

We are still average vs the Mongols and strong vs the rest. We have a hoplite in Mongol lands. I will look for their strategic resources and luxuries...

IHT: The Mongols have iron. I will try to find an pillage it. So my hoplite goes north to their core.

IT: sword->sword.

Turn 1 (130 BC) 6/6 AC vs 3/3 archers: 3-2, AC wins. [1-0]

IT: 3 Mongol archers and a warrior stop next to our SoD of cats, sopwrds, hoplites and AC's. Ac from Zeus...

Turn 2 (110 BC) cats take a HP from a warrior and an archer.

Attack of the Mongol SoD
5/5 AC vs 3/3 archer: 3-2, AC wins and promotes.
5/5 AC vs 3/3 archer: 3-2, AC wins.
5/5 sword vs 2/2 warrior: 2-0, sword wins. [4-0]

Somewhere else:
4/6 AC vs 3/3 Mongol archer: 3-0, AC wins. [5-0]
We are STRONG vs the Mongols :D

IT: sword->sword.

Turn 3, 4 (90, 70 BC) nothing much.

IT: sword->sword.

Turn 5 (50 BC)

5/5 AC vs 3/3 English sword: 3-1, AC wins.
4/4 sword vs 3/3 English sword: 2-4, English sword wins.
5/6 AC vs 3/3 Mongol sword: 3-1, AC wins. [7-1]

Turn 6 (30 BC)

4/5 AC vs 1/3 English sword: 1-2, AC wins.
5/6 AC vs 3/3 Mongol archer: 3-1, AC wins.
4/6 AC vs 3/3 Mongol archer: 3-1, AC wins.
4/5 AC vs 3/3 Mongol archer: 3-1, AC wins, but ends next to two other [11-1]Mongol archers

We are in front of the gates of Lyons.

IT: 3/3 Mongol archer vs 3/5 AC: 3-0, archer wins. We get another AC and sword->sword. [11-2]

Turn 7 (10 BC) 3 cats take 1 HP from spear/settler combo of America.
4/4 sword vs 3/3 Mongol archer: 3-2, sword wins. [12-2]

Battle of Lyons:
5/6 AC vs 3/3 spear: 3-2, AC wins.
4/4 sword vs 3/3 spear: 3-2, sword wins and we raze Lyons for 0 gold and a worker.

4/4 sword vs 3/3 Mongol archer: 3-1, sword wins. [15-2]

Turn 8 (10 AD) Cats take one HP from an American spear and do no other damage.
4/4 sword vs 1/3 American spear: 1-2, sword wins and captures a settler.
4/6 AC vs 3/3 archer: 3-2, AC wins. [17-2]

IT: sword->sword.

Turn 9 (30 AD) Cats hurt an American spear and archer.
5/5 AC vs 3/3 English spear: 3-0, AC wins.
4/4 sword vs 3/3 American spear: 3-1, sword wins.
5/5 sword vs 3/3 American archer: 3-1, sword wins. [20-2]

Turn 10 (50 AD) Cats redline an American archer.
4/5 sword vs 1/3 American archer: 1-0, sword wins.
5/5 AC vs 3/3 English spear: 3-0, AC wins. [22-2]

I found the Mongolian iron [party] Akots can get rid of it in two turns. We see two iron spots in the pic, but only the northern one is connected according to my last info (I passed the other source not long ago).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MM2-50ADMongol-iron.jpg

We are strong vs everyone, including the Mongols. This is the battlefield. There are no suprise troops closer to home. Troops couldn't pass our military near the jungle unseen. We have a lot of units ready for action (fully healed) next turn. I'm have been working on the road. To get our cats into offensive action we need to road the jungle.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MM2-50ADbattlefield.jpg

50 AD save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MM2-50AD.zip)

Good Job. Roading the jungle is going to take forever. Disconnecting all the iron will be nice. If we only face archers we are in good shape. With currency due in 10 we will be able to support significantly more troops. Shall we keep building troops into deficit in anticipation of currency and then after we max out troops with market we can do GL if needed. We can do 20spt at size 12 with starvation so we can crank hops and even archers very fast. I'd say we do that once currency comes in.


Akots UP

Bed On Deck

We could do with a few hoplites (2 or 3 more for Mongolia and 1 for the other tribes each), but I prefer swords. I have been building military constantly and haven't run into deficit. We can easily afford to lose money.

PS. We have a leader to rush the market. It's fortified in the city. And two swords in case of a naval attack, which MAY come.

Got the save. We look really consolidated. I will try to keep it like this.

It looks like there is a peninsula north of the Spice. We may want to send a unit there to explore or at least block it off. Otherwise we may get suprised by units.

Looks splendid. Just out of curiosity, opened diplo screen with England and they don’t have Writing and have only a single city. America has 5 cities but lack Philo and Lit. France does not know how to write. Mongols are rather advanced, lack only Lit and have 9 cities. Apparently, they should be pillaged and hammered the first.

[1] Sword-sword, Athens hit 1000 culture generating 16 cpt. Kill Mongol archer and sword losing a sword but our hoplite promotes to elite.

[2] SoZ summons AC. Mongol iron pillaged. Kill 2 Mongol and 1 English sword.

[3] Another sword goes to battle. Mongol boat spotted near the English lands. Kill 3 Mongol swords losing one.

[4] AC retreats from American settler/spear pair, kill 2 American archers.

[5] Settler/spear pair exterminated, we gained 2 slaves.

[6] Kill a spear in London and a wondering one, also from there. Mongol stack of 4 swords and an archer advances. Kill spear in French capital.

[7] Another AC and another sword rush to battle. We raze London but England survives. Apparently settler in boat. Nope, they built York in our backyard! Right near our precious iron. How did they get there? Teleported? Also, Mongol galley is cruising around. I hope respawn is off, at least Egypt was killed without problems. We kill spear in Rheims with AC and France is eliminated! Lost 2 swords and fully healed AC to Mongol stack, killing two swords and redlining one.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/OCC-AWM-190AD.JPG

[8] I guess England has respawned. They got whole bunch of units out of nowhere including settler, two archers and three spearmen. This might be extremely unpleasant especially if they build a city on our iron colony. Alas, little can be done about it. Mongol land a sword on a cow which is easilty dispatched of by our sword. We lose sword to Mongol archer. Not even a scratch! I move AC from Iron Hill trying to attack and raze York next turn. York is a new British capital. We cannot prevent England from building a city and destroying our iron colony anyhow. Not with a single AC.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/OCC-AWM-210AD.JPG

[9] Again lose sword to archer, another sword to spear in Tabriz and it is all not so pleasant. AI respawns with Deity level number of units and terrible RNG luck. Our Iron Hill colony has been destroyed and all English units are on top of the mountain. I would not be surprised if they build a city there next turn. Is this a joke or what? I know Civ sometimes act weird but not to this extent.

[10] I do not switch Athens to market since this might be the last sword which we can build. But we discover Currency. Heroic AC destroyed York, liberated 47g and we gained an English slave. Fortunately, English stack split and we have a chance to kill their settler/new capital if they do not move next turn. In this case, if they don’t respawn again, we can rebuild colony on iron in 2 turns. Our losses have been substantial and we are making +10gpt. Can research something, whatever we need. Or build cats.

This is the shining Athens:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/OCC-AWM-250AD.JPG

And the jungle battleground - "Combat calculator reversed":

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/OCC-AWM-250ADa.JPG

SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MM2-250AD.SAV)

Tough luck on the RNG and respawn! We are still strong vs the Mongols. Their land is getting pillaged by our brave hoplite and we advance slowly but surely. No matter what the Mongols will get (techwise), but without iron they won't be able to harm us. We're winning :D But let us make sure that another iron isn't going to be connected. We need another hoplite in Mongol lands.

Wow, quick turnover. Despite RNG, nice turns. I'll try to keep it up.

IT - Survive an English archer and a spearman attacking outside Nottingham, their new capital. [2-0]

260 AD (1) - Use the leader to rush a marketplace.

270 AD (2) - Destroy the English, killing two spears and losing a sword. Building catapult. [4-1]

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MM2_270AD_english.jpg

280 AD (3) - Now a hoplite.

290 AD (4) - Now building swordsmen. Kill off a stack of five Mongol units, mix of swords and archers. All elite wins, too. Rebuilt iron colony. [10-1]

300 AD (5) - Raze Chicago with no losses. [13-1]

310 AD (6) - Another sword. Moving on Tabriz. [19-2]

320 AD (7) - Raze Tabriz. [22-2]

330 AD (8) - Hoplite now. [24-2]

340 AD (9) - Another hoplite. [26-2]

350 AD (10) - Raze Washington. [32-2]

I'll be surprised if I see this game again. It'll soon be just us and the Mongols, and once we only have one focus there shouldn't be a problem.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MM2_350AD.jpg

Good work bed-head7! See? You are good enough to play this one ;)

Wow. I guess we should have tried this on Diety :lol: .

Greebley up.

Well, Deity would not work I'm afraid but Emperor might be worth a shot. Still we have not won yet. It might be a good idea to have two-three hoplites guarding the areas where the AIs can respawn. Or only British AIs can respawn? :)

I never understood respawning as I don't like playing with it. Eventually AI's don't respawn, but I don't know if that is based on Empire size, data, or something else.

It was not my intention to have respawn. Sorry my mistake.

I never understood respawning as I don't like playing with it. Eventually AI's don't respawn, but I don't know if that is based on Empire size, data, or something else.


Is that a 'got it'? ;)

AIs will respawn if there is an area on the map 5 x 5 in size that doesn't have another civ's boundries in it. That's the only factor, I believe. Interesting read.

Would they respawn in the presence of our unit in the area or is the respawning an intimate matters and giving birth to a new civ requires complete fog of war in the area? How many times they will respawn then? Only once or two or more? Not that it matters a lot, just good to know. But playing OCC with respawn is tough.

It just occurred to me that if bedhead just played, it probably should be an "I got it".

So ya, it is now.

Preturn: Decide to turn on research for Map Making. It is possible that a island colony exists

IBT: Not much Movement.

360 AD: Lose a ACav attacking an injured Spear.

370 AD: Archer Killed. Kazan razed without loss.

380 AD: Kill an Archer

IBT: No Enemies

390 AD: Attack Darhan and kill a Spear.

400 AD: Connect up the Silks and Dyes so we need no Lux.
Kill an Archer.

IBT: 3 Archers spotted.

410 AD: Raze Boston and Tatu. Kill an American Settler.

420 AD: Kill the 3 Archers getting a leader.
Raze Darhan.

America has 2 cities both known. Mongols have 5 cities (4 are seen, the last can be seen by the border).
I built 2 Galleys, but I don't think they will be necessary. I am sending them out in case the Mongols do get down an island city - even though this is pretty unlikely.

It will still take a bit to kill all the cities as healing is slow.
Connect a 6th Lux. See if we can get to WLTKD

430 AD: Healing

440 AD: Destroy New York. Mongol Capitol busters enter the border.

450 AD: Some forces are outside the capitol. A mis-click sent one off in a random direction. We have forces outside Philadelphia - the last American town.

Notes:
There are both American and Mongol boats. Not sure if any contain settlers. Probably not as there is land to settle

Game is almost done. Healing can take a bit of time, so the game may last more than 10 turns, or maybe not. It will be over in 20.

We have some workers going for the Incense. We don't really need it, but I think having all 8 Lux in an OCC would be fun.

Note that I think the next level of challenge would be a standard size map. I would be willing to try this.

All cities built by the AI are now seen. I will include a map.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MM2_AD450.JPG

Nice turns, and I agree that standard would be the next thing to try, not emperor. Hoplites were super effective. Maybe playing as the Romans or the Carthaginians would also up the challenge some while still allowing pillaging.

Standard map won't change anything too much, just add some tedious marching and roading, probably up to 1000AD. It might be Emperor on Small map or even Tiny one just to get a feeling of it would be nice try. Tiny though seems too easy.

More tedious marching means that when we finally get there they could be farther along techwise, though if this game is any indicator not far enough along that it would be a problem.

460: Take Philly no losses. Damn Americans respawn up the former English peninsula. I’m really sorry I left this on.

IBT: Mongols capture some exposed workers, land 1 archer by our grand city.

470: Take Karhoum no losses. Lose sword vs archer at Athens. Oh I’m scared.

480: Healing move troops. Turn up research for HBR in 2.

490: Healing moving.

500: Take Hova and Danz… no losses. America has 2 damn cities. This is very irritating.

510: Moving troops/healing.

520: Take Ala…, no loses. Take Ulan… and the Mongols respawn in our backyard. Good.

530: Move troops/healing

540: Take San Fran. Take Mongol respawn stack.

550: Move troops/healing. I’m Just going to finish this.

560: Take Seattle and America is no more.

580: The year of our triumph against 2 spears and an archer. Our score was 6069. Not bad for Monarch and OCC.

Well that was much easier than I expected. $$ were much less of a problem than I thought (we finish with ca. $700 in the bank) and the Monarch AI really can’t mount much of an effort. Well that and we were set up pretty well at the start. Egypt apparently started in the marsh and had to move 2-3 turns to found France had lots of jungle and England was stuck @ OCC because of terrain.
Good game all. I hoped it would have been a bit more exciting. Guess we’ll have to move it up a notch. Well I'm up for another. I promised Akots one as the Byzantines or we can discuss options.

I'm up for another go at it.

6069 points in an OCC AWM :dance: Fantastic result. Unbelievable how easy this was!

I would like to go for either another civ on monarch (without the invincible 5/5 hoplite) or the Greeks on emperor. Both small map.

But anything is fine. I want more of this :)

EDIT: I must agree that we were extemely lucky with our opponenents. Only one grew into a decent sized civ. Another attempt on the same level won't be this easy!! But true, our money problems were far less prominent than expected. Is the toruism tax one of the reasons for this?

We played a small map with 80% water. A standard map with 70% land is not going to be a trivial extension of this game, IMO. An easy setup might be. A hard setup would not be. We had a good situation for this map where all troops were coming from one direction.

I have played AW to death on Tiny maps. AWE on a standard map is more likely to be difficult than AWD on a Tiny map - it is definitely more varied. I would much rather play a larger map than up the difficulty on a smaller one

Thanks everyone, it was a short but very enjoyable game! Too easy or so it seems. Good position we had but it has been used well. And respawning which has been left on certainly added some spice to the game though did not help much. Not sure how important is the map size/percentage of land or hoplites, or ivory which we had connected. IMO, it all had played a minor role and only slightly accelerated the progress.

It might be of certain interest to try an Emperor level attempt on a small map IMHO. If this would be beaten, possible to move up to Demigod which will be certainly lost but not sure about it.

But playing OCC-AWRegent/Monarch on a large/standard map... not to my liking, sorry. Just too routine and tedious it will be without changing anything of importance.

I would be open to anything more challenging but winnable on a good map.

I agree with Greebley on the map size.

80% -> 70% (or 20% -> 30%) means 1.5 times of the land that AI can settle, not you. Even considering the corruption they are much stronger. And don't forget that when some AIs are weakened the others grab their land and become even stronger with so much land.

On the other hand, Monarch -> Emperor is 90% discount vs 80%, not that much a difference. Consider both growth and shield discount, it's about 25% more difficult. Surely not as much as the map setting.

So that's why Mark is going for both emperor and standard in MM3 :crazyeye:

So that's why Mark is going for both emperor and standard in MM3 :crazyeye:

Win that and you'll become my heroes.

I don't think you will, unless you get an SGL and rush the great library. :)

On the other hand, Monarch -> Emperor is 90% discount vs 80%, not that much a difference.

Don't forget the extra units from Emperor. That is what makes AWE a lot more difficult. That initial unit rush is brutal if you have 1 warrior built.

Congratulations, guys! You've proved my prediction wrong, and now it's onto Emperor Huge for you... :crazyeye: