Predesad's Emporer Random Everything

Game Results: Space Race Victory 1808 AD - 3633 points

I consider myself a beginning emporer player. I have a couple emporer wins under my belt and no losses. Due to PBEMs I have little time for SP, and I have been looking into playing SG's recently, so I thought an emporer level SG might be in order. I want to go random everything and I am looking for about 4 other players who are monarch level wanting to take the emporer leap or have just recently made the emporer leap. In this way we can learn together and it won't be so much a training exercise if there were experienced emporer+ players.

I need players willing to give it a try no matter what we get out of the random start. Any takers? I will generate the game if / when I have 4 sign ups, not including myself.

hmm im semi comfertable on monarch (havent lost yet) but i havent played that many games, i might be interested in joining

Just won a GotM on Monarch, I'll be willing to try emperor.

Dbear - welcome aboard, glad you're up to the challenge

gunner - how about you agree to sign up now and we'll give you an out if you later decide you are not up for it and decide to quit for any reason, or perhaps you might even skip a turn in the rotation every once in a while, or whatever level of involvement you are comfortable with, just don't be chicken :P

im in, i just won a pretty difficult monarch game where i had no early and important strategic resources (saltpeter/iron) i was the biggest nation, but copped out for a diplo win because the modern age is tedious. so if you will have me im in, just realize i am not the best and i would like a lot of discussion before my turns so i dont mess up, thanks!

EDIT i think im gonna start up a emporer game and see how it goes, hopefully good becasue its been a while since ive been ina succession game

Ok, I'm in. Totally random start, huh? Can't wait to see it...

k i started an emporer game that im prolly not gonna finish, but it went ok. started alright but the AIs jumped out to a big lead in techs and size but i attacked the byzantines and took most of their land. so i was basically at equal size, but still behind on tech, i think i should be able to hold my own in this game, so if i am still welcome, im in.

Mach - welcome aboard

gunner - it'll be alright

Okay, I hoped for five total players, but I think I am going to get things underway now since I got 3 signups rather quickly.

I hope to have lots of discussion, I feel everyone will have valuable input and we may even get a few helpful suggestions from lurkers. As I said before, I am viewing this as a group learning experience, we do seem to all be at about the same skill level. Because I want to emphasize discussion I am going to set the time limits at 24 hours for a "got it" but 72 hours to play. Of course, you don't have to wait the whole 72 hours, I guess it depends on how much advice you want / need. I also figured perhaps a player might take 4 or 5 turns and come to a decision he doesn't feel comfortable making on his own, so he would have the extra time to stop playing and open discussion again if he wanted.

All victory conditions will be on, but we should prolly decide on a chosen victory path within the first rounds of play. Culture flips will be on, respawn off, preserve seed on, culturally linked starts off since they are buggy anyway, AP off, and scientific leaders off. I think that is all.

I am going to play a couple of my PBEM turns and then generate our game. It will be one roll of the dice, no restarts we MUST take what we get, and I am hoping for a challenging game, perhaps even seafaring on a pangea, or expansionist on arch (wouldn't Zulu on an island by ourselves suck?)

Once the game is generated, I will use seed beast to extract the settings, I want a random game but I do want to know what I am playing. I will then post the game, pic, and the settings (including opponents) and discussion can begin, I prolly refrain from initial discussion until others have given their insights. I am unsure about the turn order and I don't want to be selfish and go first, so I think I will just pull everyone's names out of a hat, so if you prefer not to be first please specify. After we have had plenty of time to discuss our start / world (prolly tomorrow) I will post the turn order and the game can begin.

Any questions / comments?

Here is the start, definitely outside my comfort zone, also a reminder to be careful what you ask for, you just might get it:

Civ: Carthage (Seafaring, Industrious; Numidian Mercenary)

AI Civs:
Babylon
Zulu
Rome
Celts
India
England
Egypt
Germany
Mongols
Iroquois
Spain

World: Large Pangea, normal climate, temperate, 3 billion years old, 70% water, no barbarians

At least the start has possibilities, see pic below, interested to see if other players have some of the same thoughts I am considering for opening

Also I am going to post links to a few articles I highly recommend reading if you have not already:

Monarchy to Emporer: the Great Leap by Ision (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=78267)

4 rules of Wonder Addiction by Ision (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=71238)

The Carthaginians by Zardnaar (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=92639)

Here's the pic, annoying that it wont show the pic if the save is also attached:

well, ok im excited to get this rolling.

about the start, i always have trouble deciding what to do in a situation like this; we are on a bonus grassland correct? if it were me i would probably move 1 SE to save the bonus grassland and stay on the coast (so we can get some curraghs becasue we are seafaring, to get some contacts. i would say moving to the river is definately not even in consideration.

gunner - i think you're right about the river thing and coast we're not getting much out of seafaring this game, but we could get a couple early contacts for some trades. There are 5 civs besides us who start with alphabet, but only 1 that starts with masonry. i am undecided about moving off BG.

what should we research first? should we build a curragh first or a warrior?

I agree with gunner, but I think we should cross our fingers and move the settler directly east. Moving se picks up too many ocean squares for my taste. I like ocean squares in unproductive towns (like tundra towns) for the nice commerce, but not in the capital. East gives us the best shot at finding nice food.

I agree seafaring is pretty much useless, but at least we'll get the fastest scouts in the game, especially with no barbarians. I think our build order will depend on what our city contains, esp. if it has food bonus or not. But I would like two warriors and a curragh -- one warrior for scouting, one for mp, and the curragh takes off along the coast. I think the scout should first do a quick sweep around our capital, looking for important city sites (food or luxes), then take off looking for contacts.

What should we research first? Pottery, at max. Granaries are mucho important. Then maybe writing.

I agree with gunner, but I think we should cross our fingers and move the settler directly east. Moving se picks up too many ocean squares for my taste. I like ocean squares in unproductive towns (like tundra towns) for the nice commerce, but not in the capital. East gives us the best shot at finding nice food.

not a bad idea, but we should move the worker instead. i say if where he moves isnt on the coast, then we build on site.

edit: hehe obviously on the coast 1 E so yeah i totally agree with Mach

I would like to sign up. I'm a confident monarch player so I guess a move up to Emperor is on the cards.

I'd recommend moving the settler NE to the hill and settling there. Worker stays where he is and mines. That gives access to 4 bonus grassland and 3 forests for chops. Only 2 sea squares are wasted but that can be rectified with an overlapping city with a harbor at a later date.

Definately max research to Pottery then either min research or max to Writing.

Another good idea from Mach, i had not considered moving east, should have looked at map more, I say move settler east, worker mines immediately on site, unless settler move reveals something better to work like a cow, also consider if we move once and there is a river in site next to coast should we move again, i would think so. i think 1st build should be curragh to get out there for contacts ASAP then warriors.

pottery @ max okay, but i would consider a gamble to trade for it and go straight wrinting at min, but that is a risk, after pottery i would think writing min.

randomized play order:

mach
dbear
predesad
elmarae
gunner

gotta go now and wont be available for awhile tonight, so Mach if you feel comfortable starting tonight go for it or wait for more discussion, whatever. first turn mach can either take 10 or 20 turns, since several turns will be just hitting enter not to mention looking for a capitol site. then 10 turns per player.

btw, Elmarae, glad to have you.

Ok I got it. I'll go with the plan -- settler east, pottery on max, and I'll try to get a curragh out amongst warriors.

@Elm -- I think you have a point there about settler ne. I've always liked the inland capital with small harbor town thing, because of history -- Ancient Athens and its Piraeus. Besides that, moving ne gives us a better chance at finding food, and it gives the capital more productive tiles.

If we weren't seafaring...or if we were going for a 20k win...then I think we would definitely go for the hill. But I still lean toward moving east for the seafaring commerce bonus, for the curragh, and because our capital doesn't need more productive tiles, or at least it won't need them for a long time.

Turn 1 (4000) -- Settler east, and...nothin'. worker mines.
Turn 2 (3950) -- Found Carthage, and...more nothin'. Looks like we're at Land's End. Work bg, start on warrior.

Turn 3 (3900) -- Nuttin'.
Turn 4 (3850) -- Ditto.
Turn 5 (3800) -- Mine done, worker roads.

Turn 5 (3750) -- Ok we have a warrior, name of Fluffy. Heads north. Carthage starts a curragh.
Turn 6 (3700) -- Fluffy strolls onto hill...so we're not Land's End after all. That water to the ne is a lake...

Turn 7 (3650) -- Fluffy explores.
Turn 8 (3600) -- Ditto.
Turn 9 (3550) -- Ditto.

Turn 10 (3500) -- Curragh built, heads e along coast. Carthage curragh --> warrior. Fluffy explores.
Turn 11 (3450) -- Carthage grows, lux to 20%. Fluffy hits coast. Curragh explores.
Turn 12 (3400) -- Fluffy, Curragh explore.

Turn 13 (3350) -- Carthage warrior --> rax (holder for granary). New gentlemen goes by the name of Tex. Everyone explores.
Turn 14 (3300) -- Everyone explores. Ok, I'm geting dizzy. Fluffy hit ocean; either we're on an island, or the rest of the pangea is beyond the Himalayas there to the sw.

Turn 15 (3250) -- Everyone explores.
Turn 16 (3200) -- Ditto. Spot more land to the n within reach of the curragh.
Turn 17 (3150) -- Ditto. Spot powder blue borders to the n. All the fog in our "peninsula" has been busted.
Turn 18 (3100) -- Pottery comes in, start on writing at max. Everyone explores, curragh moves into Spanish territory.

Gonna stop here. Trades are available, I didn't make any so we can talk about it. Spain has cb & wc, we have masonry & pottery.

I haven't moved the curragh yet, I leave that for the next player as a freebie. Tex is heading home for mp duty, Fluffy is heading sw to bust fog. The rax is a prebuild for something, there are 25 shields invested in it. we could switch to either a settler or granary.

Not a lot of food around -- 3 plains cows 2 cities away to the ne, and that's about it.

The Save. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Pere01_Mach_3100BC.SAV)

And a screenie. You can see on the minimap where the Spanish is, to the north of us.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Pere01_Mach_start.JPG

good start mach, so the lands not great.... but its not bad. I think building a lot of coastal towns (even if we keep them small) could be beneficial. Im not sure what to do about the trades because we dont wanna trade the spanish our techs then have them go trade them to all their neighbors, but we also want to trade before its too late and we are left in the dust....

we definately need to explore to our west more just to see what else we have going on. But overall when it comes to a total random map then i think we did pretty good hehe.

The food situation isn't that bad. We can irrigate the plains from the lake. Those cows look tasty--hamburgers anyone? :crazyeye:
Do what you think best on the tech trades. It might be best to wait until you have a second contact, then play tech broker, but they might make deals while you're looking for them. See what Izzy has to say.
I've enclosed a screenie of possible future city sites. See what you think.
Each of the city sites is no more than 3 squares from a fellow city. I think tight city placement is ok here, as the land is not that great.

Why not build site 2 on the coast instead? because you can't build a harbor on a lake coast (at least that is my experience)

Hmm, good point. If #2 were moved se, that would allow room for another city nw of the lake. Plus it is bad to have coast tiles in a non-coastal city.

Mach :goodjob:

i agree about the settle next to coast then nw of lake, tight city placement is in order, i am betting we are on an island while spain is on the main continent, suddenly the seafaring trait has more value. I say go for trades now, whatever contacts Spain has we will soon have also and more, I don't think there is a point in holding off on the trades, besides, there are plenty of contacts to be had.

i disagree about writing on MAX, i think we shold go MIN because, IIRC, the base cost of writing is 8, we have a large map and the overall gold cost is going to be 320 gold, which would be 64 turns if not for the 50 min limit. We are not going to do better than the 5 gold to science we are putting out now because each additional citizen in the beginning is going to have his extra commerce put towards lux to keep from rioting. Once one of the warriors gets home then this helps, but at 6 gold, it is still 51 turns. However, a second city could increase gold considerably, the question is: Will we found a second city soon enough to offset the low research and make it worth the effort to go max? An average of 8 gpt to science means 40 turns on writing and that might be the best we can hope for, however I hav enot fully analyzed it to see what i thought we could do longterm i am just looking at the short term, if someone else thinks we can get the commerce up in time to make a considerable difference (and has adequate information to explain why they think so, not just a guess) go ahead and speak up, PLEASE.

I think barracks should be changed to settler then build granary, but that's just my opinion.

Dbear, Mach was stopping short here in case you did not realize it, it is your turn next whenever you have had sufficient discussion and want to go with it.

Again, Mach, seems like you got quite a bit accomplished to kick us off, good job.

i agree that a granary is in order, and have my doubts about the effects of max research on writing, in my experience it just doesnt make a difference in the amount of turns.

Oh, I made a little weedy comment earlier -- we can't switch to a settler yet, since we're only at size 2! We don't grow to 3 for another 3 turns, yet we'd finish the settler in 1. So...I think granary is our best option.

320 gold for writing, eh? Time for some guesstimating, a nice Fermi problem here...

We're currently at 5gpt on science. Granary in 6, settler in 4, I think. Then it'll take us about 4 turns to settle either #1 or coastal #2. That's 14 turns at 5gpt...for a total of 70 beakers invested. (The number 5 will go up when we get mp, it'll go down when we get granary maintenance fee, it'll go up when we grow, it'll go down when settler is born...so I think 70 is a decent guesstimate). That leaves 250 to go.

Coastal #2 will give 4g in the city center, plus one more when we get another tile roaded. #1 will give 3g in the center, +2 for a roaded river tile...I think our second city will give 5gpt at first, -1 for corruption. With our capital pulling 5...that's a grand total of 9. Carthage can grow in 5 with the granary, so let's say it takes another 14 turns to settle our third city, so that's another 126 beakers. 126+70 = 196 @ turn 28. 124 to go.

With a third city, that's another 4gpt, so that makes 13gpt. 124/13 = ~10 turns. So I guesstimate writing in 38 turns. Hows my math? :crazyeye:

The alternative is writing in 50 turns, while saving 300 gold or more. So if I'm anywhere close...I think I vote for max research...saving 10 turns is a lot, and I'm not worried about getting behind on tech for now -- if we are on an island, all we want is curraghs and settlers and workers and a few cheap mps for awhile...and if we get philo first, we'll have no problem trading ourselves up. What do we need gold for?

0) 3100BC: pull the trigger and trade Spain masonry for CB + 10. Izzy will not trade BW for pottery. Move the curragh north. Hehehe, Spain got stuck on the tip of a jungle island!

1) 3050: Fluffy and Rex move sw. Curragh continues northward.

2) 3000: Worker done, moves e (n of Carthage) to road. We need more workers. Fluffy moves s.

3) 2950: Carthage rax-->grain. Have to turn up lux to prevent rioting next turn. Sending Rex home to MP. Fluffy moves s. The w side of the island is all hills and mountains. Curragh keeps sailing along Spanish island.

4) 2900: Not much happens.

5) 2850: worker done roading, moves to BG wsw of Carthage. Curragh finds new island off north tip of Spanish Isle. See if we can find any other civs. Definitely looks like we're on an archipelago.

6) 2800: Curragh heads west, nothing found. Turn lux back down as Rex is home.

7) 2750: Fluffy moves to guard worker, curragh follows coast nw, nothing found.

8) 2710: Curragh heads nw, finds Iroquois warrior. Trade masonry for BW + 10. The military advisor is not happy, but can't help that. Fluffy moves to guard worker.

9) 2670: Curragh continues on.

10) 2630: zzz

11) 2590: Where are the Iroquois settlements?

12) 2550: Carthage grain-->settler. OK, let's expand! Fluffy and worker move n of Carthage, preparing for a road build toward the lake. Suggested settlements include 3nw of Carthage on the river, nw of the lake, 2se of lake on coast.

Nice turns DBear. I think the trades were the Right Thing To Do. One question: why did you finish the rax? I had intended for that to be a granary...since I figured we don't need military, we need population to expand. If you thought I had meant to build the rax, then I wasn't clear enough in my turnlog... Or maybe you have reason?

Could seed beast have been wrong? Are we on an archapelago? Or are we on an island off the pangea? It sure looks like an archa...but we can't be sure yet. Spainland and Iroquoisland could still be connected in the east... Either way we need another curragh asap.

too bad about the granary, but good work on the trades.

i double checked seed beast and it says it is a pangea again, i doubt seed beast is wrong, i think it is indeed a pangea but with 12 civs 2 could be on islands easily, or perhaps the small section unexplored connects to landmass, we'll find out soon enough

Mach - your math sounds good to me and today at work I was thinking about this & i think we will hit close to 40, so we should go max. i didn't have time to really work out the math last night. initially i was thinking we would end up with something like 47 or 48 turns which i would have rather just gone min than to save 2-3 turns, but 10 turns can be a big deal.

i think we should build warriors for mps no archers & definitely no numidian mercenaries, emphasis should be on workers settlers, even over mps. we have nothing to worry about until map making. a 2nd curragh is in order to explore in the opposite direction. soon we should try to decide if we will try to conquer the world from our tiny island or strive for a peaceful victory type.

good job Dbear

i am sick w/ the flu & can't play right now so I am taking a skip this round,
elmarae, i think you are up next.

good turns dbear, bummer bout the rax/granary but at least we dont have to compete for land really.... i think if we can we might consider annexing spain later on because i cant see us staying on this island the whole game and coming out with a win....

Heh... all three of my SG's have come due, R&L02 is 1650 AD and I'm starting a war so that will be taking alot of my time. Drizl01 is also in a war on a island map (never could spell the other word for it :P)

But I think I can knock out the turns in this one first, starts are relatively easy. :) So I got it and will play in a bit.

My mistake on the rax--with only 3 turns left at start I thought it was an actual build so I left it in.

hmm do you guys think we should get a dot map going? i dont wanna screw up settling locations on my turns...

EDIT or are we still going by DBears for the most part?
:)

We're pretty much going by DBear's, except for one change. Here it is. DBear's #2 went away, replaced by red dot and blue dot. I don't think we have a consensus on what order to settle in. What do people think? I vote blue dot first, because it can make a 10 turn worker first thing.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Pere01dots2.JPG

what about number 1, it will be on a river and the settler can get there fast as it will already be roaded...

Why not build 1 on the hill next to it, then we aren't wasting a 2food square? The city automatically makes the hill a 2food square.

Preflight
No trades to do...
Writing in 38 at 70% Sci or Writing in 38 at 10% Sci? Change to 10% Sci

2510 BC
Move Fluffy to Carthage for MP.

2470 BC
Explore more coast

2430 BC
Discover Iroquois lands
Spain has Warrior Code, won't trade it.

2390 BC
Carthage > Settler > Curragh
Spain most likely sold WC to Iroquois.
Trade Spain WC for Pottery
Iroquois lack Ceremonial Burial (which Spain has) but nothing to trade for it

2350 BC
Found Utica > Rax (may as well build Veterans for upgrading later)
Research Writing in 29@100% or 33@10% Leave it at 10%

2310 BC
Certainly looks like the Iroquois is on their own island.

2270 BC
Carthage > Curragh > Settler

2230 BC
Explore waters south of our island 2-3 Squares of sea indicating there might be land


nearby. Exploring safely for now to see if I see a safe crossing point.

2190 BC
No Coast sighted within 3 squares - May have to suicide run the Curragh.
Started exploring the rest of Spain's coast.

2150 BC
No Coast sighted within 3 squares - May have to suicide run the Curragh.

- Roster -
mach - On Deck
dbear -
predesad - Skipped
elmarae - Just done
gunner - UP

Dotmap - Proposal
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/2150BC-Dotmap.jpg
The Red X's are where I think we should settle. The Blue X's adjacent to Reds are alternates for the Red X. Blue X's with no neighbours are possible Settling locations.

Nice turns elm! I agree with writing on min. Let's leave it there, since we've started on it. I don't think we're going to gain many turns by switching it to max anytime soon.

On this topic, in TR02, dmanakho pointed us at this converstation...here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=111377&page=3&pp=20). Scroll to the middle of the thread where DocT, Renata, and Dynamic talk about min/max research. It shows why it can be good to do a max run on something, even though at first the max run shows ~50 turns till it's discovered. The point is as your economy grows, the turns till discovery will shrink...and the early extra beakers you invest will shave turns off the end.

I like your dotmap there, with all the nice X's. I think I like the red spots in general, they give us more harbors. We can place the FP in one of the three most northern red X's. The exception is the easternmost spot -- I prefer the blue dot, as it will grab a cow or two, so it will have food...so it can use the hill the red X is on for production. This corresponds to DBear's #4.

All in all, I think we're making good headway here. Send the southern curragh west...since we're near the south pole, west is more hopeful for finding good land.

i cant comment too much right now, but ditch the barracks builds we do not need them right now there are no barbs and we are on an island, no war anytime soon

we should have stayed max since we had already invested several turns at max, but now that we went min we need to stay min.

we should have stayed max
You could be right, but I'm not sure about this. With the early rax that we're paying maintenance on, plus our second city founded ~6 turns later than I thought, I think we bumped the max run to well over 40 turns. In that case cutting bait by switching to min is ok. Staying at max would have been ok too, IMO it's a close call.

If we manage to buy a couple of slave workers with our riches, I'll be very happy indeed. :) So everybody keep your eyes open for available workers, and grab them if you can.

I agree, switch the rax build in Utica to...something else. We're growing slowly because of no food bonuses, and we need to compensate for that. So let's concentrate on expansion & exploration for awhile.

The reason for the barracks build is because I was forseeing building worker then warrior. Eventually the warriors will be upgraded so wouldn't it be best now to have vets?

Going for the vets is a good idea, but IMHO it isn't a high priority. Higher priority is expansion, and strengthening our fledgling economy...

I don't mean to be critical, so please don't take offense. I'm learning here too, so I could easily be wrong. I'm just stating my thoughts. :crazyeye: I feel like we're not all on the same page, so maybe some more talking is in order? Remember that pred has given us 72hrs to play each turn, so we have plenty of time to talk things out. What does everybody's think our priorities are? What should we be doing next?

Here are my current thoughts, for the next 10 turns...


continue min run on writing
if someone discovers writing before us, buy it asap!
buy slave workers if they become available. It goes without saying, but...check for trades every turn!
switch Utica to warrior for mp if we can do so without wasting shields, otherwise start granary
settle coastal "red dot" city next, start on worker
have Carthage oscillate between curraghs/warriors and settler
and obviously, explore explore explore!


That's all I can think of for now. Also I'll post a roster. I hope you don't mind, pred, you said you were sick...get better soon! :D

mach - on deck
dbear
predesad
elmarae - just played
gunner - up

That's all I can think of for now. Also I'll post a roster. I hope you don't mind, pred, you said you were sick...get better soon! :D

Don't mind at all, I am around, but minimum participation right now.

I agree with Mach on a lot of things, most importantly that we don't all seem to be on the same page and i really hope to get some more discussion between turns because I think this game looks like a real challenge. It is on emporer level with a not so great civ with a not so great start with a bunch of players who are just learning emporer so let's put our heads together and also give some lurkers who are more experienced a chance to give advice here and there. I am going to suggest waiting at least 24 hours before playing the turns for ample input, maybe even longer, it's not that i want the game to move slowly i just want everyone to have time to make their suggestions and arguments for their ideas so that the player can make informed decisions.

about the barracks thing - war is not a possibility in the near future, we would need galleys and lots of them to start a war and that's not until map making. We don't even know yet if we'll have the iron to upgrade those warriors, the regular warriors we do build now can just be used for MP and continue MP if we go to Monarchy and never be upgraded. With the tech pace we may not even be looking at a war until the MA, then upgrading warriors to med inf will be very expensive and might be best to build anew and we might go after knights for war in which case no upgraded warriors, right now there are just too many possibilities and questions so, I think it is more important to save the maintenance (did i spell that right?) on the barracks to help our economy, it is going to need help, after all i have not seen any luxuries, did i overlook them or do we not have any (because of illness have not loaded save and i didn't pick any out from screenshot) if we had a neighbor on this landmass i would agree some barracks would be needed but the isolated island start is a unique situation. expansion exploration only, IMHO is the best way to go right now with no thoughts about a future war, we cannot even plan what units we would use for a war unitl we know our resources and where the tech pace will push us when we think of war, but again I am betting the real potential for a feasible war will not occur until about knights.

ok, i got it unless pred wants to take back his skip...

well i could probably play it right now but i feel we need more discussion aswell.

i agree on Machs points almost 100% so unless anyone has any input to add i will play this tommorow afternoon probably.

I've thought of a way to describe my thoughts...you guys can tell me if I'm off or not. I'm concentrating on our civ-wide surplus of food. We'll only be able to found +2 food cities for awhile, so each new city gives our civ +2 food. Granaries essentially double the food output of a city. Each pair of slaves we buy is equivalent to a full food bin.

So currently Carthage is at +4 food, and Utica is at +2 food. That's +6 food, which means our civ is gaining a pop point every 3.5 turns. Without any military problems to worry about, my thoughts are toward simply increasing our food surplus so we gain population faster.

pred, to answer your earlier question, there are no luxes on our island, and we haven't seen any on the Spanish Isle yet. The Iroquois have plenty of spices. IIRC we haven't talked about a future govt yet, but I know we are researching toward republic right now. Since we have no luxes handy, should we even be thinking about rep? Without mps...how would we sustain a population? Maybe monarchy would be better? (Doesn't monarchy allow 3mps per city?)

I hope the lack of lux on our isle means we'll have, like, 2 irons or something...

gunner - go ahead with it

mach - i think you are right in that we should pursue monarchy, no lux, no mp, will be hard because we would have to import lux and unless we do get extra resources that might not be viable, it is sometimes more costly to buy lux than to use slider if pop is big, since this is emporer we only get one content citizen. any knowledgable lurkers have any input on viability of republic in this situation? oh, & monarchy = 3 MP. sorry i do not have any specific suggestions right now, i have yet to look at a save, i just think to continue to explore and build towards exploration and expansion.

Has anyone given any thought to a possible victory condition yet?

ok so, explore, expand, and after researching writing switch to monarchy path? i will play later today. :)

okay, i viewed the save, pre-turn i suggest the following - in governor set it to emphasize production = yes so that when the city grows the new citizen will hopefully work a forest and settler will be built next turn instead of taking 2 and wasting all those shields. don't really have advice on where to settle, but i think that has really been covered already since several players have posted good city site dotmaps so just use your discretion there. i am also thinking my seed beast could be corrupted or something because it really looks like spain is on an island, the iroquois are on an island, we are on an island, does anyone else have seedbeast to run it on the save, i have ran mine 3 times on 2 different saves of this game & still get pangea, but 3 island starts i am skeptical. there is a small chance spain connects to a mainland, but i doubt it. switch that barracks build to a granary, consider building another curragh in capitol and we need to make some suicide runs if spain does not connect to a landmass and we dont find another crossing soon. if this does turn out to be an arch our game just got a whole lot easier, but lets make those contacts ASAP and that means suicide curraghs (remember, seafaring civs have a reduced chance of sinking)

yes, expand, expand, expand, but also, workers, workers, workers. we do not have a good settler factory site and our food bonus sites are distant so corruption might not even make a worker factory feasible so first city builds might need to be workers.

i am not sure about monarchy path, we can continue down writing path, go for philosophy next and hope for free tech, the AI will research the monarchy path and we can trade for it, of course i am gambling this is indeed an arch and we will be going tech broker. anyway, i am just trying to suggest a tech path which will maximize trading possibilities and perhaps we should wiat until we can trade for polytheism and then research monarchy, any other thoughts on research from anyone?

long term goal consideration: would the great lighthouse give us a GA? If no then we might consider building it, notice I said might. The reason is not just the extra movement and safety in sea tiles but also we can trade across sea, if the iroquois get a harbor built or other civs which might just be seperated by sea then when can trade for lux hoping we do get extra resources to compensate for our lack of lux, or we can use our extra resources we will hopefully have to buy techs. that is just a possibilty to throw around and discuss not really a vote for building it, we just need to consider it. If the Great Lighthouse does give us a GA, then my vote is a resounding no.

oh, and I will just wait until the turn comes back around to my turn and not jump order to make up for skip, keeps confusion down that way,IMO

ok im about to play and the old dot maps arent showing up for me,

settle coastal "red dot" city next, start on worker--- all i need to know is if that red dot is 1E of the old spot or 1SE on the forest? if i dont get this answered soon im going to play, hope i make the right call.

IIRC, red dot was on the forest 2 tiles se of the lake. Then there was another dot nw of the lake, and (I think) another one on that hill near the center of our island, the one that the river bends around...

I gotta make a mental note to download the important pictures like dotmaps...

Edit: looks like pics are back up...

thanks mach, saving those pics seems like a good idea, ok playing now!

To answer your question, pred, the Lighthouse is seafaring, commercial, and expansionist. So it won't trigger our GA, we're seafaring and industrious. I think it might be worth a try. First question is how quickly can we get Map Making? 28 turns to go on writing, then what, 15/20 on philo? If we get there first, we could take MM as our freebie...so we can have MM in, say, 45 turns at minimum? If we don't get philo first...it'll be quite awhile before we can research it ourselves. Unless we can trade for it.

I see two courses of action here. Our capital is the best suited to build it quickly, with all those bgs. If we let it grow to size 4 (which would mean we'd have to run a lux), Carthage gets 9spt. At size 5, 11spt. So Carthage could build the Lighthouse in something like 30 turns.

OTOH, what if Red Dot City built it. It could get (after corruption) probably 5spt at size 3, 6spt at size 4...and so on. (A lot depends on how high a lux rate we're willing to run.) If we start a prebuild, say, after it builds us a worker...it'll be well on it's way in 45 turns.

This is a toughie. I like the "Red" solution. Carthage has a granary, and having it build a wonder for 30 turns is pretty much wasting it's food production power. Let red dot city build a worker, (maybe two, to be safe?)...then start on a prebuild. It's tough to predict when we'll get MM, and a lot depends on that... We could freeze red dot city at size 3 @ 5spt (by working the forests & one mined grassland) for awhile. Then when we get close to MM, we can let the city grow (turning up the lux) to time it as best we can.

Of course, if we don't think our prebuilds will hold, then forget it. We have pyramids & the colossus ATM, and if we can trade for myst (which is likely...the AI likes to research myst...) we'll have oracle. What do you guys think? Anybody have a better idea?

IT-Switch Utica to granary (warrior would waste shields)
1-Irrigation at utica finishes, not exactly what to do, in my games i would send him to road for the next city, but i am tempted to chop the forest to finish granary faster. I decide to chop the forest.
- Raise lux so Carthage doesnt revolt.
2-Carthage settler> warrior (we need some MP's)
-Lower lux to zero again
- Send settler to coastal spot.
- Send curragh into sea west of our island, so far no coast, hopefully he doesnt sink...
- Looks like Spain is on an island
3- still no coast, i hope i didnt make a bad decision...
4- Carthage warrior > settler
- umm lol our curragh has been following a sea passage, but still no sign of the coast
- SPAIN IS ON AN ISLAND.... weird
5- Finish choping the forest at Utica, definately cut some time off the granary
- Found Leptis Magna > worker as suggested
- uggh looks like the sea passage has ended and our curraghs far from home with nothing to show for it...
6- Spain got The Wheel, wont trade it, which is alright with me because i dont even know if we want it
7- And the curragh sinks... sorry guys :(
8- Carthage settler > curragh
- Utica granary > worker? i think this is a good idea
- not sure to do with the curragh that we have now, im not seeing many sea passages to do suicide runs on... but we definately need to find one.
9- nothing... explore
10- Found Theveste > warrior
umm either i played an extra turn or i was left with one extra, sorry.

Our Empire-
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/empire.JPG
Spains Jungle-
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/spain_hehe.JPG

:goodjob: gunnerxtr

spain is definitely on an island and if this isn't an arch map it is the craziest pnagea i have ever seen. what would be the odds of us getting a pangea and starting on an island near two other civs on islands.

And the curragh sinks... sorry guys :(

sorry for what?? :confused: you did waht you were supposed to do and what i suggested, we need suicide curraghs and lots of them to make the contacts ASAP, if we don't find any possible sea passages then send them out blind into the ocean to hope we get a glimpse of sea or coast. IMO, there needs to be no second thoughts about this and no hesitation, build them and send them. We're going to lose them, but the payoffs if we get the contacts while the civs are isolated means we could possibly continue a min research strategy AND lead the tech race although philosophy needs to be researched @ max, just something to think about but i rarely use min research tactics.

as far as Machs thoughts on the run @ map making & the Great Lighthouse, how many shields is the GL, I don't know because I rarely build AA wonders. I don't know that we want to research map right away / grab it with the free tech:

argument against MM:

1) curragh = 15 shields, galley = 30
2) we need suicide runs
3) we trade writing after we get philosophy and MM is one of the first techs AI typically research so we could research something else and trade for it

argument for MM

1) we have time to build up curraghs if we found several coatal cities and concentrate on them before MM
2) the extra movement of a galley might reduce turns at sea / ocean for more successful suicide runs
3) ability to get the GL sooner means sea is safe, movement of galleys = 5, even greater chance for suicide runs
4) since spain is going to be so weak due to poor lands, can consider helping the spanish people by annexing them to carthage all we need are a few "diplomatic" units (archers, horses, swords) to transport with galleys, curraghs can't transport

anyone else want to add their thoughts, i must admit i am weak on arch maps and island starts

mach - up
dbear - on deck
predesad
elmarae
gunner - just played

Very nice turns gunner! :cool:

@pred -- the GL is 300 shields, so @5spt (Leptus at size 3) that's 60 turns. Which sounds like a lot...but we may not see MM till then. Do you think we'll have continuous prebuilds for that long?

I vote yes on GL. Sure galleys are twice as expensive as curraghs, but with the GL, their 1 turn suicide reach is more than twice as far! (5 movement instead of 3, plus they can leave from a sea square, which is usually ~2 tiles out from the coast...so if a curragh's reach is 3, a galley's is 7 for the same suicide run. Does that make sense?)

This is my got it. But I won't play till we're satisfied we know what we're doing. Three questions...

Shall I start prebuild for the GL now?
What build orders should I give? (I'm thinking settler next for both Carthage & Utica, pyramids for Leptis, and worker --> granary for Theveste.)
What's our final dotmap? Where shall we settle next?
Anybody have any other questions? (Wait, that's four...)

so is Pyramids going to be a prebuild for GL? If we are building the pyramids for the granaries im not srue its worth it because it only affects the continent its built on and our continent is pretty small and expansion should be doable without granaries in every city. I'm guessing its a prebuild though haha.

I think the cows should be a settling priority, they will be able to knock out workers (at least) pretty easily.

I have Utica building a worker right now, and its due in 1 turn, we definately need more workers, but if utica is better served building something else change it.

EDIT: concerning research-- Writing is due in 17 then of course we are jumping to Philosophy at max.... would it knock some turns off if we increased the science rate right now?

As far as a prebuild, as long as we dont build it in the capitol, a palace prebuild will hold for any wonder. if we decide to build the Lighthouse might as well go for it after a worker in Leptis, keep that worker dedicated to improving land in that city emphasizing shields (mine before roading) i said palace instead of pyramids so there are no worries about it being built by another civ and any "accidents" happening when changing to something else for a prebuild.

worker for theveste is good and granary i suppose, but although granaries are great, we must watch our maintenance costs

Carthage, perhaps another curragh then a settler

after Utica builds worker perhaps warrior for mp then settler

settle coastal sites first, cow site is a good idea

i am not sure exactly which dot map we are using, but i have my own variation attached where i just put some purple x's where i thought we should settle, some of these cities are going to be fishing villages in the future, others will be our main production cities, this island sucks, anyone agree, of course, it could be worse, we could be where spain is. there are of course going to be other opinions about the exact locations to settle but between my map and Elmarae it's just a matter of preferences. I basically added an extra city on those hills below Utica, in time it can pick up the whales and make a good fishing village, and i also changed some sites to avoid using the oasis and settle directly on the desert instead (still coastal) then i moved a few other site to adjust for my changes, but anything close to this would be good, I guess. Man, this land just sucks, have I said that already?

we have been so long at min, i doubt it would make more than a 1 turn difference if that and we need to just finish out at min. if we start min, stay min, if we start max, stay max (of course slider can be adjusted down towards end of research so you yield gold while not reducing the number of turns) any deviations yields waste and inefficiency.

Huh. I had looked the palace up in the civilopedia, and it said it's 100 shields to build. However, Leptis (@1spt) can build it in 300 turns, so I guess it's really 300 shields, perfect for GL prebuild. What's going on here...is there a bug in the civilopedia? Or does the palace cost go up with map size, or something?

As far as the dotmap is concerned, it looks like we have a plan for the eastern towns, and the northern coastal towns. (I'll settle cow towns next, and try to get some irrigation over there.) I think I like the extra town in the western mountains -- those cities aren't going to have the food to work many of those mountains, so we might as well found more of them. I'm not sure of the three non-coastal northern towns -- they seem spaced too close together. (I'm thinking we may be heading toward a diplo or space win...) Maybe we can found one of those three cities? We can always abandon it later...

I'll play it tomorrow, so everyone has time to give me their advice.

I'm not sure of the three non-coastal northern towns -- they seem spaced too close together. (I'm thinking we may be heading toward a diplo or space win...) Maybe we can found one of those three cities? We can always abandon it later...

I figured that might be the plan, benefit from squeezing in as many cities as we could get righ tnow, then later abandon a couple interior cities if we needed to allow other cities to grow, but we'll have to adjust accordingly as we grow and everyone is going to have their different preference for exact city placement.


Huh. I had looked the palace up in the civilopedia, and it said it's 100 shields to build. However, Leptis (@1spt) can build it in 300 turns, so I guess it's really 300 shields, perfect for GL prebuild. What's going on here...is there a bug in the civilopedia? Or does the palace cost go up with map size, or something?

100 Shields ?? It is actually 1000 shields, BUT the cost is actually dependent upon the size of your civ (i.e. # of cities) i believe Theoden wrote and article about the cost of the palace and it has some insight about it, but basically there is like a minimum number of shields required to build the palace, not sure what that is, and then as you expand & the # of cities increases the cost of the palace keeps increasing until the maximum cost (1000 shields) is reached.

Diplo or Space win huh, you don't see us taking over the world then??

100 Shields ?? It is actually 1000 shields
Well, that's what my 'pedia says... I guess it's wrong, so nevermind...

Diplo or Space win huh, you don't see us taking over the world then??
Well, I figured with a big map, and all the islands, a military win would take a while. But if that's what the team wants, I'm not against it. :D

I'm not a real fan of island maps, just serves me right that the 2 C3C games I play seem to be island maps :)

No problem on the changes compared to my dot map. I was forseeing that our island was going to be relatively corruption free. so gave cites room to expand while also using as much of the land as possible and soon as possible. Once we get to lands that are 90% or more corrupt I ICS as much as possible. Lots of little towns with irrigation where possible, producing workers/settlers with scientists/taxmen.

I agree we should go the Lighthouse. Galleys will be more effective for finding land, unless we are lucky with a Christopher Curragh.

I'm easy on any type of win. My prefered method is Conquest/Domination. I'm doing the SGOTM 100K. So Diplo or SS would be a change of tactics for me... But I will go with what the team wants. Count my vote as "ANY".

hmm as far as victory diplo or space sounds fun, military seems pretty tough given our start.

Lighthouse sounds like a good idea.. i dont know if we NEED it considering we are already seafaring, suicide galleys (4 movement points could do the trick) but the lighthouse would definately help. I say we go for it and hope to cascade to something else if we miss out on it (like TGL :))

I was actually being somewhat sarcatic about the conquest / domination thing, I think it would be a difficult challenge on this size world with our civ, if we were the Byz or the Vikings (as far as seafaring civs) it would be more feasible but our UU is not going to help us. I don't think we can go completely peaceful and win with our land, we need some help from Spain because our industrious workers can convert that land into good tiles and while I would not want to move the palace over there, we could always go ICS and get huge commerce benefits from it. Also, whoever ends up as the monster civ in this game needs to be taken out, hopefully via a world war, to help us keep up in the tech race because I foresee that being a problem for us. I think the diplo victory is lame (not that i haven't used it before) and I am thinking SS. Culture would not be good for us because our island is small unless we go for the one city victory in which case we would really need to get on the ball since we have screwed it up from the start IF we were going in that direction.

I am leaning heavily towards the Lighthouse now, the extra movement point is not so much of a help as being safe at sea tiles, that will be huge for suicide galleys & w/ the +2 movement over normal galleys it very well might make some would be suicide runs completely safe voyages by being able to hit other sea tiles. This might even make some early warmongering possible, but it's too early to plan anything like that. We need to try to stir up wars among the AI at some point to slow down there advancement.

Pretty good turns.

Preflight -- MM Utica, Leptis for gold
(I) Utica worker --> settler
T1 (1700BC) -- nothing
(I) Carthage curragh --> settler
T2 (1675BC) -- nothing...
T3 (1650BC) -- curragh suicide run...nothing...
(I) Leptis worker --> palace, due in 300, haha. Curragh survives.
T4 (1625BC) -- MM Utica for gold...suicide curragh, nothing...
(I) Theveste warrior --> warrior (Leptis is gonna need mps...)
T5 (1600BC) -- curragh suicide run...still nothing...
MM Utica for gold
T6 (1575BC) -- Northern suicide spots land! Other curragh goes suicide, too...
(I) Both curraghs survive! :bounce:
T7 (1550BC) -- MM Leptis for shields
Northern suicide hits land! Change his name to Columbus. Southern finds nothing...
(I) Carthage settler --> warrior
T8 (1525BC) -- Southern suicide curragh spots land!
Settler heads off toward cows
(I) Southern curragh survives... :dance: Put on some Van Halen. :rockon:
T9 (1500BC) -- Southern curragh hits land, sees green borders.
Northern curragh sees black borders.
T10 (1475BC) -- Hippo founded.
Meet the Celts, they are up Wheel & IW.
Meet the Zulu, they are up Wheel, IW, & Myst

Now, some trades...
Get IW from the 'Quois for CB & 42g
Get wheel from Spain for IW & 85g

Zulu are up Myst & HBR.
We are even with the Celts, Spanish, & 'Quois.
Edit: Sorry, my bad, we're up Wheel on the Iroquois.

We have 2 irons & 1 horsie on our island.
We get writing in 7 turns.
Settler ready to found cow town on the spot, and there are two workers bringing irrigation over there (one to road, one to irrigate).
I decided against a granary in Theveste. Pred is right, we have to watch our maintenance costs, and also cow town will better use a granary.
And oh yeah, I am the luckiest man in the universe! [pimp] :lol: We may have two curraghs on either side of the pangea...

For the next player...
Watch the MMs. Utica especially.
I have three towns on warrior, as we will have need of mps. These builds can be rethought.
I forgot to change the name of the southern curragh...so do that, she deserves it.
And sorry for leaving you with such small towns...

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Pere01_Mach_1475BC.SAV)

Our home...
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Pere01_Mach_1475.JPG

great turns!!

hooray we found other civs, lets hope that isnt just one big pangaea though....

sooo, this brings up a good question, do we need the lighthouse anymore? or would the shields be better used on something else?

my thoughts are that the curraghs need to explore in opposite directions, actually i guess i mean the same direction, kind of hard for me to explain what I mean, but they need to explore in directions so that assuming they are at the same landmass (the "pangea" we are supposed to have) they will not meet and therefore maximize opportunity for contacts. that's prolly some long voyages, but we dont have to worry about barb galleys.

gunner brings up a very good point, I do not think we need the lighthouse anymore, Mach, can you say how many shields are invested in it, or someone who has looked at the save? what do you guys think, should we ditch the lighthouse and what shold we then decide to aim for, is there another feasible build assuming there are not too many shields invested or are we headed for another wonder. i do not really want to build the other GL because even though it is a powerful wonder which would easily allow us to keep up through education, it could also be a crutch that will suddenly vanish at education. if not too many shields invested I would rather switch to a warrior and abandon the entire wonder project.

cow city should be looked at for possibility of worker factory depending upon the corruption

Currently, both curraghs are moving counterclockwise, assuming it's a pangea. So I already followed your advice. :D

I agree, ditch the lighthouse. Only 9 shields invested atm, we could switch to anything -- warrior is fine. Maybe we want to think about Hanging Gardens later on? One happy person per city for an entire age would be pretty nice when we don't have any native luxs. Too early to prebuild for that, though...

yeah the only argument left for getting the GL would be transporting units to attack the spanish, but they are so close that there is really no reason for it.

who is up, DBear?

Got the save. Will play tonight.

who is up, DBear?

sorry, forgot about the order update:

mach - just played
dbear - up
predesad - on deck
elmarae -
gunner -

so far we have ditch the lighthouse and build order can be changed to a warrior with no losses or whatever else looks good, explore in counterclockwise direction around "pangea". research suggestion i believe has been philosophy for free tech, with hesitation to trade writing before we get philosophy, especially since the Zulu being expansionist would have a very good chance of popping it.

I would sell the Wheel to the Iroquois for their 42 gold, simply because we can, they wont have any contacts besides us and Spain for a long time and we could use the gold. I would also consider a possible deficit research run at philosophy to help our chances of getting it first.

those are just my suggestions.

i would also like to say i have not had a chance to play a turn yet and i think the team has done a good job of taking a somewhat poor situation (our start) and making the most of it

especially since the Zulu being expansionist would have a very good chance of popping it.

is it No Barbarians or Sedentary, because with no barbs there are no goodie huts :mischief:

is it No Barbarians or Sedentary, because with no barbs there are no goodie huts :mischief:

oops, very good point, it is no barbs, so no goody huts, suddenly a little safer to trade writing but i would still wait until we are a few turns in on phil, but that is dbear's discretion

hmm i was thinking about what you said and i think it could (i repeat could) be safe to trade because:

1) The AI will not switch what it is researching to research philosophy
2) The AI will not deficit research, which means they probably couldnt get there as fast as us on max.

HOWEVER, with that being said, i still feel we should hold on to writing for as long as we can. lol. :)

hmm i was thinking about what you said and i think it could (i repeat could) be safe to trade because:

2) The AI will not deficit research, which means they probably couldnt get there as fast as us on max.


an AI who has a river, who is researching at a reduced cost of 80% could beat us on max even though they wont deficit research.

even though they wont switch research, we don't know who is researching what and when it will be discovered to give them the chance to switch to philosophy. with the no barbs / goody huts i think it is safe to trade writing as long as we wait until we have a good head start on phil.

what are we taking with our free tech, assuming we get it?

I would sell the Wheel to the Iroquois for their 42 gold
I agree. Shoulda done this myself. :blush:

i still feel we should hold on to writing for as long as we can
Agreed. I say hang on to writing until we have ~4 turns left on philo at most. Remember, there's no tech we really need right now -- the sole purpose of our philo run is to keep us up in tech, and hopefully speed us out of despotism. So I don't mind falling behind for awhile.

what are we taking with our free tech, assuming we get it?
If there is anything to get, we should trade philo around on the IT. (That is, when the "you have discovered philo" popup comes up, click the button to bring us to the science screen, switch to the diplo screen, and trade it.) Then...go back to the sci screen and simply select the most expensive thing available. Dare I hope it's...monarchy? After that, if we don't have monarchy, we should research towards that. My two cents.

Also, the more I think about it, the more I like trying for the hanging gardens. IIRC it gives us +1 happiness in each city until steam power...at which point, we'll be able to trade with the mainland, netting some luxes.

1) 1450: Carthage warrior-->settler. Leptis Magna warrior-->worker. Leptis Minor founded by cows. Wake Fluffy up and send him over there. Send Rex over to Hippo. Switch Hippo to temple. We need that iron inside our border. Curraghs continue exploring.

2) 1425: North curragh contacts a Roman settler. They have nothing to offer.

3) 1400: Zulu start Oracle. Rome starts Pyramids. Buy Mystic off the Zulu for 195. Leptis Minor roaded, roading horses.

4) 1375: Iroquois demand Mystic, refuse, they declare. Stupid gits can't even get to us. Zulus picked up writing and math. Crap, I was hoping to get that money back. Utica warrior-->settler. Horses roaded. Leptis Minor and Hippo switch to chariot.

5) 1350: Theveste worker-->worker.

6) 1325: Rome will trade us Horseback for 60 + 11/turn. Much too high. Leptis Magna worker-->grain.

7) 1300: Writing comes in, start mapping. Spain riots, turn up lux. Turn up science to 70, we can get mapping in 35. Sell mystic to Spain for 85.

8) 1275: Carthage settler-->trading.

9) 1250: Not much happens.

10) 1225: Theveste worker-->chariot. Hippo chariot-->grain. Feel free to change these. southern curragh spots an orange border--England?


Successor: Utica has a settler due next turn. He should either go 3sw for the iron or 2n, 1nw of Leptis Minor for the cow and whale. Settler 3ne of Hippo should settle where he is to get the iron.

good turns, however:

1) I dont think we need the temple because i think we could just settle another city to get it in our borders
2)Why build chariots?
3) we were supposed to switch to Philosophy and you have started map mapmaking?!
- maybe this was becuase you figured it was too late to go for philosophy and you may be right about that, I have a hard time gauging it.

Gunnerxtr

I did switch the temples out.
I'm building chariots to later upgrade to horses/knights.
I saw that the Zulus were ahead of us and figured that someone on the mainland was already going for Philo, so I started mapping.

I did switch the temples out.

you're right i missed that, sry. :)

So...a few chariots, researching toward MM, and the earlier rax build in Carthage...are we gearing up for war already? :mischief: That might not be a bad idea -- once the cow towns come fully online (~15 turns from now?), they can feed our civ...and we can start placing other cities on war production, skimming off the occasional settler/worker... The Spanish should be easy pickins for us.

I'm not sure I like researching MM, though. How many turns would philo have taken us at max with our current economy? Also, did you try to buy writing from the Zulu once they had it? (Although I'm not sure how discounts on techs work when we're doing min runs...maybe it wasn't worth it.)

I think that settler will have to be moved a spot to line up with our dotmap, although I'm not sure until I've looked at the save. I'm not concerned with getting the irons within our borders; it's not like anyone else could claim them in the near future, and we don't need them right now. We should continue to settle productive cities first, then fishing villages later.

All in all I think we're in pretty good shape here. :goodjob:

seems like pretty good turns, but i haven't viewed the save.

i disagree about going for map making instead of philosophy, i would have still tried for philosophy because of AI tendancy, but I was also just beaten to phil while attempting the rep slingshot in another SG. IMHO, unless another civ actually discovers phil it is always worth the chance for the free tech. But i am not complaining just expressing my difference of opinion.

i vote we refuse to make peace with the iroquois until they make us a concession of some kind, we may even have to go over there and make them regret declaring

i am about to view the save when i take my pbem turns, but am planning to wait at least until tomorrow night to take the turn so let me know of any input / advice, i may post something to debate

mach -
dbear - just played
predesad - up
elmarae - on deck
gunner -

hmm i dont have too many suggestions, just settle dots and explore and trade.

what do you guys think we should attack with? horses or swords? and should we bring catapults? we are going to need a bunch of galleys....

Ok well im not too good at dotmaps but i figured a screenie could boost discussion and we could hammer out some settling locations:

now, lol, obviously this is only 1 settling location.

BUT i think it should be the blue dot becasue it will free up space for the settler to the west and it will grab the whale.

If anyone wants to add dots feel free, because i dont wanna be the one to screw up a settling spot, hehe.

blue dot is prolly best, i think we have had several dotmaps, but they keep getting overlooked with the increasing number of posts so they are hard to find, i think dbear made one, i ahd one with just a couple changes, perhaps everyone should just dl one of those and then can refer to it instead of hunting for it on the thread or reposting dotmaps, although everyone is free to make their own dotmaps if they want.

as far as attacks, either horse or swords works for me, if swords, bring catapults, if horses maybe reconsider since the cats might slow us down, although we can unload right next to a city so maybe not. i think it will still be awhile before we are ready for an invasion though and i still would not be suprised if it is not until the MA. however, if we do start building up for an invasion, perhaps we can stockpile units to the very north, stockpile some galleys there as well, and then when we are ready for an invasion, instead of having to take all units at once, transport a few every turn and then declare war and move into city borders once we have all the units there.

You're right about the dotmaps, the only reason i posted this one is because i thought we would just come up with priorities for settling, but mainly becuase we lacked a screenshot to begin with.

I agree about troop transportation, but by the middle ages Spain will have their entire island covered by their borders i would bet, if not then we could do waht you said.

actually i was thinking of two different scenarios:

1) MA campaign

2) transport a few units at a time in the AA

Ok, I took a look at the save, and some things have changed. So my thinking has changed along with it. First, since our two curraghs hit land, we have no need of more suicide missions...so we aren't building any more curraghs. Second, the iron is about to be hooked up in 2 turns. Once that is done, we can't build warriors anymore! (I guess we'll have to build spears for mps now.) Also we've lost our philo run, so we don't need to be careful with our economy so much now.

Obviously we keep building settlers & workers when we have the population to do so. Expansion is still our first priority. But I'm concerned about what we'll build while we're waiting for our population to grow...

Anyway, I'm thinking it's time to gear up for war with the Spanish. That means a few rax, and a few vet swords. Cats in corrupt cities that don't merit rax. (We don't have any yet, but we will...) Galleys once we have MM. We really only need ~6 swords for the initial assault. So that means:

Switch Leptis Minor (cow town) to a granary.
Switch Hippo to a rax.
Switch Carthage to a sword (in 2 turns).
Switch Leveste to a rax.
Switch Leptis Magna to a, er, spear? (We don't want a rax here, it's going to be a shipbuilding center soon enough.)
Move our current settler 1 spot se to settle on the hill, as per our dotmap. Build a rax.
Settle blue dot next.
Trades: there's really nothing doing right now.
When MM is finished, start on something at min? Or go to 0% research altogether?

Just my two cents. What do you guys think?

Oh yeah, I'm thinking swords for our attack force, since reinforcements might be slow to arrive. Swords have a better suvival rate...

If we are plannning running min science we should consider doing the lone sceintist trick...

i am completely against min science unless we fall way behind, which could happen given our land, but harbors when we get MM will help with commerce

do we really want to get the iron hooked up and gear up for war now, well, what else is there to do? but more warriors would have been nice for mps

do we really want to get the iron hooked up and gear up for war now
Well, if it were up to me, I wouldn't have hooked it up at this point. However since the road is 1 turn from being done, I vote let it finish. I think we'll do fine with it. I figure since this is a long (space?) game, we'll want spears at some point because they have a cheaper upgrade path, and a larger deterrent value than warriors. I know we're in no danger of being attacked, but a bigger army would help keep us out of phony wars...

Also with our tight spacing & good road network, we can shuffle mps around as needed. I like that. This decreases the number of total mps we'll need for our civ. :goodjob:

You're probably right about no min science, I didn't feel confident about that when I wrote it. I was just thinking how, once we have MM, there isn't any tech we really need for quite awhile...not until we're ready to build markets & libs...

Good luck, pred! ;)

...not until we're ready to build markets & libs...

which would prolly be about now, IMHO, will post more about this when i get a chance to play the turn, which wont be until sometime after i get home from church

okay guys, a little difficulty & just wondering what everyone else thinks:

th emp issue has gotten out of hand after Sabrath founded by iron, can no longer build warriors. we cannot build spears, and numidian mercs are 30 shields, would rather spend those 30 shields on horses or swords. about to get HBR from egypt, so no more chariots. this allows us to build only 30 shield units with the exception of archers. should we build archers for mp or go ahead and invest the extra 10 shields on horses / swords or even a numidian merc (they'll come in handy eventually when we want a GA. Also, how many barracks should we build, if we decide to go for the 30 shield units exclusively then we would prolly want more barracks, but maintenance is an issue. should we let some cities grow and produce military, or do we want to put out settlers as fast as possible meaning we keep the cities small, this also affects the barracks, small cities less barracks, IMHO. i thought i had another issue for debate, but it escapes me now. oh, we might consider a prebuild for the GL because things look like they might get ugly in the tech race. i dont like using the GL, but this might be a save our hides move. later when we have fishing villages in operation our economy should be adequate thru the MA with a little "help" from spain & trhe iroquois but even with our early contacts it seems the AI are going to run away with the tech race and prevent trading opportunites, both phil & map making have been discovered by other civs which means by the itme we discover map making it could be untradeable. we can beat the AI to the GL by doing 3 things:

1) start prebuild ASAP
2) research literature and not trade it to any AI
3) convert one of the cow cities frrm worker factory to GL prebuild, it will grow fast and be capable of high shields once we do get to 6 citizens

i am undecided, we have very little to fear by way of attack so the loss of the shields would not impact us as much as if we had a real neighbor, what do you guys think?

i say go for the great library.

about the military... i say we invest in swords as MP's its a tough decision (and my solution could very well be wrong) but i think these will come in handy for the assault on Spain.

If we were to go for a wonder, I would prefer something involving happiness, like the gardens, or artemis. These will simultaneously help our economy and our population size. I don't know the situation, but I'm confident that we can dig ourselves out of whatever tech hole we're in, given time. All we need to do is stay with the Spanish & Iroquois...

I forgot we can't build spears...damn. I like swords. I like rax in our non-coastal cities, plus the one in our capital. When we get math, build cats in corrupt cities.

okay, things may not look as bad as i initially thought, perhaps it is wise not to use the GL after all, research has been @ 100% and map making is only in 6 turns and it has not been traded around yet and there are some good trading opportunities if we get it before it gets around

preturn:

changed production of several cities as Mach suggested:
Leptis Minor - granary (worker factory)
Hippo - barracks
Theveste - barracks
Leptis Magna - chariot (we CANNOT build spears & Numidian Mercenaries are too expensive, would rather wait and spend the 30 sheilds on a sword, in the maentime at least chariots will upgrade to something useful)

32 turns seems a long time for MM, we have spent 3 turns of research, after some mm & research increased to 80% map making in 30 turns, lux reduced to 0%

utica builds settler --> warrior (to be sword when iron)

1 - 1200 BC: meet england, up hbr & math; fortify a bunch of units for mp, move workers from iron to cows to speed up worker factory

2 - 1175 BC: meet Egyptian warrior (trade writing for HBR); also see blue borders; Sabratha founded - archer for mp; Carthage production changed to sword; uttica / leptis magna to archer for cheap mp (chariot no longer available)

3 - 1150 BC: various worker actions, want to irrigate around river so those tiles can be worked for extra commerce

4 - 1125 BC

5 - 1100 BC: Babylon found, even in tech; Celts discover philosophy, claim math as free tech (assumption, they could have traded for philosophy)

Carthage = sword -> settler; Utica = archer -> settler; Leptis Magna = archer -> settler

6 - 1075 BC: Rusicade founded - warrior to be changed when resources are hooked up; moved archer to Leptis Minor for MP; moved archer towards Rusicade for MP; Babylon discovers map making

7 - 1050 BC: Spain discovers math, we trade them HBR for math; trade math to Babylon for 88 gold since that tech is widespread; science to 100% (-3 gpt, math 9 turns); production in sabratha changed to horse

8 - 1025 BC:

9 - 1000 BC: Egypt discovers polytheism

Leptis Minor = granary -> worker

10 - 975 BC: worker starts to clear forest by Carthage, keep in mind for next production after settler

overall, a lot of micormanagement, mostly i moved citiznes around to improve commerce, in Leptis Magna specifically, i was careful to work the lake because the extra shield from working a mined tile was corrupted anyway, trying to work as many river tiles as possible, tech race might start looking better if map making does not get traded around, i would try to get polytheism first from egypt; also note that utica is working 3 river tiles for 4 shields, it builds settler in 4 turns, but can be MM when settler has 2 turns left for one additional shield and build it in 3 turns instead of 4.

sorry, forgot the pic, but here is the save:

mach -
dbear -
predesad - just played
elmarae - up
gunner - on deck

good turns! tech race isnt looking too bad anymore!

good turns! tech race isnt looking too bad anymore!

yeah, a lot better than when we had 20 turns to go on map & it was discovered by someone else and i was sure it would get traded around.

remember this was the 1st time i got to play because i skipped my first turn and the game is not going how i would like it to. that is not necessarily bad, it will be a learning opportunity for me if it goes well, but i am / was uncomfortable with the way the game has gone and was not so much aware of it until i played this time. i am not really criticizing / complaining it is just taken a different course in style of play than what i like to do.

remember this was the 1st time i got to play because i skipped my first turn and the game is not going how i would like it to. that is not necessarily bad, it will be a learning opportunity for me if it goes well, but i am / was uncomfortable with the way the game has gone and was not so much aware of it until i played this time. i am not really criticizing / complaining it is just taken a different course in style of play than what i like to do.

hmm, well what would you have done differently? (was it research/ expansion/ exploration?)

Got it...

And this is what I love about SG's, not only do you learn new strategies, but you go in directions you may have never thought of or end up in a situation you would never have gotten yourself into.

Nice! I took a look at the save this morning, and we're looking good. Nice job with the mm, pred. And the trades. :goodjob:

I also would have done some things different -- especially the science. And I wouldn't have hooked up the iron. I'm new to SGs, and I'm finding they are sometimes difficult; sometimes I think we've come to a group decision, and then it isn't gone through with. But I agree, elm, dealing with this ever-changing situation is fun...

So I'll go with my usual Socratic thingy...
1.) We're almost done with MM. What should we research next?
2.) The more I think about it, the more I like HG. What do you guys think of starting a prebuild? Bad idea?
3.) When can we build the forbidden palace? Where shall we build it? When should we start a build on it? Shall we send a settler soon, with a worker?
4.) Does everyone understand the idea of the fishing village? Shall we all get on the same page on this, since we'll be founding some in the not-so-far future?

My answers...
1.) Get poly from Egypt, and start on Monarchy.
2.) Good idea, Mach! :lol: Prebuild somewhere now.
3.) I'm pretty sure we'll be able to build it with the number of cities we'll have on our island. Build FP on the northern coast, in the east where the plains are. Send the next settler there, and start prebuild asap.
4.) I do.

Edit: Suggestion: there's a town in the middle of our island building a regular horseman, change that to a worker...

Whew, looks like I was right in not going for Philo.

Whew, looks like I was right in not going for Philo.

yeah, after the min run at writing and other civs having it when before you it was a good decision, i would have still made a play for phil, but i would have been wrong. MM will be much better for trades IF it doesn't become widespread before we get it.

hmm, well what would you have done differently? (was it research/ expansion/ exploration?)

i would rather not rehash some decisions which were made by various players, i was sick and didn't give much input or even play during the first round while others did but forth the effort. if i start naming off specific things i would have done differently i am afraid i might offend someone or it will look like i am complaining. i agree with what Elmarae said about this making SGs fun and helping with learning new strategies / techniques. i am in 2 SGs and these are my first.

1.) We're almost done with MM. What should we research next?
2.) The more I think about it, the more I like HG. What do you guys think of starting a prebuild? Bad idea?
3.) When can we build the forbidden palace? Where shall we build it? When should we start a build on it? Shall we send a settler soon, with a worker?
4.) Does everyone understand the idea of the fishing village? Shall we all get on the same page on this, since we'll be founding some in the not-so-far future?

my answers may sound a lot like yours :)

1) a) get poly and start on monarchy
b) realizing that most AI's who have poly will immediately pursue monarchy, research currency which is almost last on the AI list of priorities, however trading for monarchy will not be fun

2) although i recently suggested going for the GL, i don't usually build wonders in the AA, however, our unique position it might be good to go for some, what are the actual benefits of HG and what is the cost, then put that in terms of turns and weigh the cost / benefit issue to see if it is worth it at this point (i am ignorant of the cost / benefit because i never build this wonder, i think it is either 1 or 2 content citizens in all cities)

3) i may look this up in the editor later, but we can build the FP when the # of cities we have founded = 1/2 the optimal # of cities, IIRC. I am not certain what the optimal # of cities is for large worlds. i am not certain of what the actual location should be in regards to dotmaps, but i think it shold be somewhere in the vicinity of those fish on the east coast so that those fishing village cities (which will have good growth in addition to good commerce) will have lower corruption. But, I wonder if it would benefit much to build on the lower part of Spain when we take that over to perhaps make those cities semi productive, but the distance to spain may make corruption rampant, just something to think about.

4)i think to be safe if someone has a link to a good fishing village setup to post it, i know this has been discussed in various threads but i am unsure if someone has ever wrote an actual strategy article on it. our fishing villages need to be isolated for the purpose they should serve and not deviate from that purpose, IMHO. Our fishing villages will either make us or break us, IMHO.

1)i say poly>>> Monarchy (AI are sticklers on govt trades)
2)not sure about the wonders... i normally dont build them in the AA...
3)I normally build FP wherever i can get it built fastest, but if we absolutely need the lower corruption in the fishing villages, we should spend the extra turns on the FP
4)ive never read a thread on it really, but if it is the same as what i use (coastal town, build harbor, concentrate food and commerce) then yeah i know what they are

if i start naming off specific things i would have done differently i am afraid i might offend someone
Just for the record, if I make a mistake, please point it out. I don't take offense! :D

I think I should explain myself more...

2.) The GL costs 300 shields, gives +3 happiness in that city and +1 happiness in all other friendly cities, and it lasts until steam power. I figure it this way: our population size will be determined by happiness, since we will have no luxes for awhile, and we're only likely to have about 2 mp's available per city. The GL will allow us one more population point per city! I think we'll be able to hit pop 6 cities with only 20% lux rate if we get the GL...

3.) I'm with gunner, I like to build the FP early. Spain would be the optimal place for it, but I don't think we should wait that long. (If we were militaristic, I would consider waiting for a leader to build it in Spain, but we're not.) So, I like this site:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Pere01_Mach_FPSite.JPG
It'll give help to the cow towns, and even some help to Spain.

4.) I agree with pred; fishing villages will be crucial. A third of our cities will be villages! So we should grow them efficiently. Here's how I grow them, in order (improvements should be rushed when economical):

If corrupt, harbor.
If corrupt, high food & courthouse. Rush!
High shields; granary
If it doesn't yet have one, harbor
High food to size 6
High shields again; Market
Library
Aqueduct
High food again forever
Bank
When at max size, sell the granary
Skim the occasional worker

High shields = work forests or mined hills
High food = work the coasts and any other +2 food squares

2.) The GL costs 300 shields, gives +3 happiness in that city and +1 happiness in all other friendly cities, and it lasts until steam power. I figure it this way: our population size will be determined by happiness, since we will have no luxes for awhile, and we're only likely to have about 2 mp's available per city. The GL will allow us one more population point per city! I think we'll be able to hit pop 6 cities with only 20% lux rate if we get the GL...

3.) I'm with gunner, I like to build the FP early. Spain would be the optimal place for it, but I don't think we should wait that long. (If we were militaristic, I would consider waiting for a leader to build it in Spain, but we're not.)

you say GL, but i assume you mean HG, okay, 300 shields, a city with 5 shields = 60 turns, 6 shields, 50 turns nets us 1 happy citizen (actually i think content) in all cities + 3 in that city. IF we build it, put it in one of those river cities. It does not expire until steam power so it does have a long shelf life. i think we can work up 3 MP's per city when needed in monarchy, one citizen born content, HG gives one that would make size 5 cities w/ no happiness problems which means we can get to size 7 which is crucial for unit support, with about 20% luxury rate. it is inevitable we will have to build temples in order to grow and cathedals will help a lot otherwise the lux rate will kill us and will be ineffective for some cities due to corruption, hopefully we can import some luxuries when we can trade overseas. It would be nice to steal some spices from Iroquois, but we cannot even trade with that continent until astronomy. it would also be nice to disocver some other lux in unexplored territory in Spain / Iroquois. anyway, i got off the subject, the HG might be a good idea since we wont have any lux available for awhile nor will cities be building temples soon, BUT i highly reeccomend it on the river, that way 3 MPs @ monarchy, one born content, 3 content from HG = size 7 city no unhappiness. mach, i understand your hesitation to assume more than 2 mps / city, but with our situation we MUST do what we can to get 3 per city as they grow, IMHO, since this is the most efficient way to deal with unhappiness given our situation.

about the FP, optimal number of cities for a large world is 28, if I am correct about needing 1/2 that number to build the FP, & i am pretty sure i am, that means we need 14 cities before we can build it. We are already gearing up for war, i think it may very well be possible to have a city in Spain before we get 14 cities built on our island or at least be close to that point, but it might be better to build the FP on our continent to net a better overall core.

Just for the record, if I make a mistake, please point it out. I don't take offense! :D

same here, i joined this game to learn not just to play how i always play and get the "nice turns!" even if they arent, just be nice about it ;) but seriously, its just a game and i will not be heartbroken if you tell me something i did wrong, i just wont make that mistake again :) :p

well, it's not necessarily that mistakes were made, i would point them out if i thought that were the case, it is just a different direction like i said earlier.

I agree, pred, I think we will have a Spanish city soon enough...but it'll be pretty corrupt. I'm talking about starting a prebuild now; the FP is what, 200 shields? Personally, I don't want to trust in getting a leader from the Spanish war...cause it might not happen.

is spain all filled up? could we get a settler up there? just as a toehold?

so, Mach, you are wanting to start a prebuild for HG and a prebuild in anothre city for FP. while it seems we are destined to gear up for an invasion of spain or iroquois, is all that feasible from a production standpoint, speicfically since i recommend taking one of our most productive cities (river cities) out of production for the HG if we build it?

Well, the FP is something we're going to want in any case. The city I'm suggesting we build it in will be semi-corrupt, so it wouldn't be doing much otherwise. If you prefer, we could build it in the most northern city, in the desert...an otherwise useless city. This seems to me to be the most efficient way to get the FP, unless we're willing to hope for a leader. If we wait awhile, and don't get a leader, then we'll either get a very late FP (bad for our economy), or we'll be forced to build it quickly in a low-corruption city (thus reducing its effects).

Now for the HG, you're right -- prebuilding for the HG will delay our invasion of Spain. But IMO it'll save us in the long term. Look at it this way: temples cost 60 shields. We're gonna want temples, you wrote that earlier. For the price of 5 temples, we get the effect of a temple in every city...for an age.

Well, the FP is something we're going to want in any case. The city I'm suggesting we build it in will be semi-corrupt, so it wouldn't be doing much otherwise. If you prefer, we could build it in the most northern city, in the desert...an otherwise useless city. This seems to me to be the most efficient way to get the FP, unless we're willing to hope for a leader. If we wait awhile, and don't get a leader, then we'll either get a very late FP (bad for our economy), or we'll be forced to build it quickly in a low-corruption city (thus reducing its effects).

Now for the HG, you're right -- prebuilding for the HG will delay our invasion of Spain. But IMO it'll save us in the long term. Look at it this way: temples cost 60 shields. We're gonna want temples, you wrote that earlier. For the price of 5 temples, we get the effect of a temple in every city...for an age.

I was not necessarily arguing against the HG, again, but pointing out that I do not think prebuilding for both of these wonders simultaneously is a good idea. After all, that semi corrupt city could be left unconnected so we could get some warriors for MP (am I correect in thinking that city has not actually been founded yet?), AND i think we should first build a courthouse in the city where we choose to build the FP, thus speeding up the FP build and prolly getting it as fast as if we had initially prebuilt for it. Since we are not militaristic, I would not hope for a leader.

is spain all filled up? could we get a settler up there? just as a toehold?

sorry, i meant to resond to this before, but i forgot, i dont think spain is filled up, but i also dont want to build a city there, it might end up inviting war before we want because they would have the potential to then invade us, and their territory is crap anyway, it will even take our industrial strength workers a lot of time to clear out that mess.

Elmarae: just checking up on you, haven't heard from you regarding the next turn, you are, of course, still within the 72 hours so no big rush if you need more time

yeah no big rush at all, i am busy this week, and i might need a skip as it is...

I am playing it now... so in an hour or so :) The reason for my delay is I was up in another game that I had just joined, I'd missed my first turn because my cpu fan had seized frying my cpu and mb. The person who went before me only played 5 turns so I had to play 15 turns in 1600AD - 1675AD on an island map preparing for war, so it was lots of builds and moving troops by boat to the beachhead. So I was all cived out. (How can it be so?) As just a few days before I had to do 10 turns of modern warfare which took about 7 hours to play through.

Preflight
Pre Trading: 258g -4gpt
Change slider to 100% tax (258g 30gpt)

Trading:
Babylon: Buy Map Making for 250g + 10gpt
Celts: Buy Philosophy for Map Making + 5g + 7gpt
Babylon: Sell Philosophy for 250g + 1gpt
England: Sell Philosophy for 45g
Zulu: Sell Philosophy for 10g
Egypt has Poly but wants too much for it.

Research set back to 90% > Literature in 13

Post Trading: (308g, -18gpt)
Mapmaking & Philosophy + 50g for 16gpt (138g per tech)

Noticed that Sabratha and Rusicade were building regular units so.
Changed Sabratha to Catapult
Changed Rusicade to Settler

Satisfied I've mucked enough up :p ... I press ENTER...

950 BC
Carthage > Settler > Swordsman

925 BC
Leptis Major > Worker > Worker
Found Oea > Catapult
Iroquois peace for 14g

900 BC
Forest Chop shields to Galley build in Carthage

875 BC
Utica > Settler > Settler
Sabratha unhappy, move warrior from Carthage to Theveste to Sabratha.
Changed Galley to Swordsman to replace MP

850 BC
Leptis Minor > Worker > Worker
MM Rusicade so it's growth and settler in 6

825 BC
Theveste > Barracks > Swordsman
Carthage > Sword > Settler
Hippo > Barracks > Settler
Sabratha > Catapult > Worker
Make contact with Germany he doesn't know Math or Map Making.

800 BC
Babylon complete Colossus

775 BC
Leptis Minor > Worker > Worker
Exploring
Babylon has Code of Laws

750 BC
Oea > Catapult > Worker
Exploring

730 BC
Literature due in 2


- Roster -
mach - On Deck
dbear -
predesad -
elmarae - Just done
gunner - UP

Nice, elma! I like the trades much much. :) I wouldn't have made peace with the Iroquois -- if we had waited longer, maybe we could have gotten pennies from them, but no damage done. And we are up to 2 swords, 2 archers, and 2 cats. :goodjob: Need...galleys...

I took a quick look at the save this morning, and A Few Things...
Three new settlers coming up, nice! I would follow pred's good advice form earlier -- leave these towns unconnected for awhile, and get some warriors out.
One city was on zero growth -- I would turn growth back on. I'd rather run a lux rate for awhile than lose the food.
We have two cities building workers, but they won't grow to size 2 until a turn after they have accumulated 10 shields. Question: should we switch these builds, or is the shield waste worth it because we need workers now?
Lit should net us poly & CoL & money, then start on monarchy @ max.

I am going to have to ask for a skip, this week is pretty hectic for me.

The points that I used to decide what each town was doing was this.

Because of my trading putting us in a negative gpt, I didn't want to build more buildings. We have plenty of unit support not being used so units was the way to go. Most of our attacking units are MP at the moment.
If a city was size 3 it was set to make a settler with growth MM'd at or greater than the time to make a settler, because 2mp is the most we can have in a depotism.
If a city was size 1/2 then it would be dependant on if it had a barracks or not whether I would build Sword, Cat or Worker. If the city didn't have a 2nd MP I would build a worker.
The reason I went for Literature was because the AI typically goes for the Govt techs. So CoL I was going to be beaten on. Poly was known by the Egyptians. I was hoping to learn Lit and then be able to trade that for Poly and then get Monarchy. Though it now looks like the AI is going after Republic.
Because of our lack of luxes, Republic will be bad, we have to go Monarchy.

I hate paying gpt for tech, i (obviously) would not have made the trade, but i am not saying it was the wrong thing to do. even though i hate min research, if we are going to continue to buy techs with gpt then we should go min or 0, otherwise it is a waste, IMO

good job, though, Elmarae, and i do agree with your decision to try Lit next, but unless those other techs get traded around by the AI, we won't be able to trade Lit for anything straight up, we need a monopoly on LIt while no other civ has a monopoly on the other techs.

gunner asks for skip:

mach - UP
dbear - On Deck
predesad -
elmarae - Just done
gunner - skipped per request

Ok, I got it. I can't play it till tomorrow night, though. Any advice? Just one foot in front of the other? Expand, build some units...

Paying gpt for techs isn't something I do often, but I get the feeling I should. Elma got those techs pretty durn cheap! And we were still able to research lit fast enough to get there first...hopefully...

yeah, i think going for those techs was a good decision, i have realized that in the early game you have to pay almost any price to the AI, or you will fall too far back.

sry i had to skip, my life is getting hectic in my last year of high school.

Turn on notepad, turn on mapstat.

Preflight --
Turn growth back on in Hippo
Change Oea & Hadrum to harbor...our first two fishing villages!
Zulu gives us CoL for MM straight up
England won't give up construction for Col & MM :(
Egypt must be researching MM...so no poly either
Hit space
(I) Utica settler --> sword
Magna settler --> galley
Sabratha worker --> rax

T1 (710BC) Look waaay back to our dotmaps, figure out where to send these settlers
(I) Lit comes in
Carthage settler --> galley
Minor worker --> settler
Rusicade settler --> archer

T2 (690BC)
The English won't give up construction...
Lit to Egypt for poly and 23g
The English still won't give up construction for poly, MM, lit, CoL, plus cash!
Lit to Celts for 144g
Lit to Babs for 93g
Nobody else really has any money
Start on Monarchy in 50 at 60%sci (-10g) :lol:
(I) zzz

T3 (670BC) We have 4 settlers in the field...and according to f11, we are fifth in population :dance:
Hippo grew to size 4, so I raise lux to 10%
(I) Theveste sword --> sword

T4 (650BC) found Cadiz, start on warrior
found Cirta, start on warrior
(I) Hippo settler --> sword

T5 (630BC) lux to 0%, sci to 70%
(I) Utica archer --> rax
Mongols finish the Oracle
Mongols get currency

T6 (610BC) found Nora, start warrior
(I) Oea harbor --> library
Indians finish ToZ, Germans finish MoM

T7 (590BC) found Rusaddir, start warrior
Lux would have to go to 20% to make Minor happy, so I make a scientist
(I) We get the FP message...

T8 (570BC) zzz
(I) Carthage galley --> galley
Minor settler --> catapult

T9 (550BC) shuffle mp's around...we're running short here...
Currency and construction are still way too expensive...
(I) The ai's are trading like mad and there's nothing I can do about it...

T10 (530BC) Currency & Construction are mostly spread around...Zulu won't give const for lit...
The gpt deals have ended, so I put sci to 100%. Monarchy in 16.
(I) Rusicade archer --> galley
Hadrumetum harbor --> library

T11 (510BC) We have discovered that the world is round! :D

Sorry, I played one extra turn. I can't count. My bad...

So all of our cities have been founded, except for one settler that can found on the spot, or he can move one tile, whatever the next player wants. (I would reccomend not placing him on the plains, for food-related reasons.) Our new cities haven't been connected to the trade net yet, a la pred, so they can build warriors.

The trade situation has completely fallen apart...four civs are in the middle ages! :( I didn't see anything I could do about it... I pushed for monarchy hard, keeping enough money around in the hopes it would net us a tech, but it didn't. I'm not worried though, we get monarchy in at most 15 turns, and that should net us a lot.

On the other hand, we have one galley in the water, and in a few turns, we'll have two more. Our force is 3 swords, 1 horse, and 2 cats, with 2 more swords on the way. So maybe the next player can attack Spain, maybe the player after. We have a strong military compared to Spain.

We are on the edge of our mp situation -- we have barely enough to keep us happy at the moment. If we head off to war our happiness situation will get dire. I'm not sure what to do about that. I think hooking up the iron so early was a mistake -- each of those swords could be three warriors apiece!

I think we might want to sell our granaries in Carthage & Utica. We can build the FP now.

No screenshot since nothing has really changed since last time, I just founded a few more cities.

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Pere_001_SG_510_BC.SAV)

Got it, will play tomorrow. Sorry about hooking up the iron so early. Have to learn there are times to not do that...

For the next player...DBear? I'm finding it hard to give advice on these -- the happiness situation is giving us a delicate situation.

Don't hook up those northern cities until we have more warriors! I think we should get 2 out per city, which means you'll be leaving those cities unconnected throughout your turns.
I think we're done building settlers, and we're doing ok on the worker front. We have 11, and they are industrious. A few more workers would be nice...get them out of our cow towns.
So it's time to grow our cities. Try to grow them all together. Raising lux to 10% costs about 8gpt, so don't do that if only one city needs it. Instead, hire a scientist in that city. Wait until a few cities (4 or 5) have scientists before raising lux.
Keep science at max.
I know we should build some temples at some point...but I don't know if now is the time.
I put the connected fishing villages on growth -- leave them that way for now. Their purpose is to make us money.

Edit: I cross-posted with you, DBear! I wanted to add -- see what you can do with those war preparations, of course...

0) 510BC: Switch Carthage to Lighthouse. Switch Hadrumentum and Oea to temples for happiness. Rusicade and Leptis Mag are building galleys. I want at least 6 galleys for the invasion of Spain.

1) 490: Theveste sword-->worker. Move settler 1w. Workers mine near Rusaddir.

2) 470: Fluffy and another warrior upgraded to sword. Theveste is going to riot, so switch worker to scientist. Hadrumentum switched to sword, Oea to galley. Saldae founded, start warrior.

3) 450: Utica rax-->temple for happiness, as I have to create a scientist. Workers build Salcis-Rusidae road.

4) 430: Babs and Celts beat us to monarch.

5) 410: Leptis Mag galley-->temple

6) 390: Hippo sword-->temple. Have to switch Carthage worker to scientist. We have 5 of them now, so I turn on lux. Workers move to chop forest near Hippo to help temple along.

7) 370: Curraghs have completed circumnavigating the main continent, will be trying to get them back home to upgrade.

8) 350: We get beat to lighthouse, so switch Carthage to GLib. When Monarchy comes in we can also go for Gardens. I'm not bothering to try for ToA.

9) 330: Oea galley-->rax.

10) 310: One curragh makes it back home.

Monarchy will come in next turn. Suggest trading to either Zulu, Mongol, or England for Currency and/or Construct. Upgrade returning curragh to galley. Once we get six galleys ready, load them up (keeping their cities happy with scientists/lux) and attack Spain. There is a sea lane to the sw of Carthage. I would like to know if there's an undiscovered island that way, but it can wait.

good turns, bummer about getting beat to Monarchy, oh well there should be trades left.

good turns, bummer about getting beat to Monarchy, oh well there should be trades left.

Yeah, looks like really good turns!

Do we have any gold left? Maybe, pred, you can look at buying monarchy right away, just to make sure we can trade for currency & construction.

Assuming we do get monarchy, currency, and construction...what should we research next? I'm toying with the idea of turning research off -- I don't mind lagging behind, so long as we stay ahead of the Spanish and Iroquois. We can use some gold to get 2fers from the mainland, and the rest to wage our wars. This is a style of play I've never used before... What do you guys think?

Also, what do you guys think about revolting? Should we...
1.) Revolt right away, delaying war.
2.) Revolt when war preparations are done, and start the war in anarchy.
or 3.) Revolt when the war is in hand.
I think I like #2, assuming that we'll have all our war builds done within like 5 turns.

I never play with research off, thats why i play on Monarch the most, but it may be necessary for this game...

About revolting; that is a tough question 2 and 3 arent much different so i vote for either of those.

i think it may be my turn, i will have to skip again, my computer has experienced problems and i have a lot of other things going on, which would not be a problem if computer was not a problem. right now i can't afford any repairs or anything. I may be able to access another machine and give input now and again and possibly even talk them into letting me install civ and play a round, but until further notice just keep skipping me, if you guys want to recruit another player, that's fine. Hope i get everything sorted out before you finish the game. Sorry guys, i really regret this since we are doing a lot of things I do not do and it was a good opportunity to look at different strategies and lines of thought.

Godspeed, predesed. Good luck with the comp, and hope to see you back soon!

mach - itchin' to play
dbear - restin' up
predesad - skip skip skip
elmarae - UP!
gunner - on deck

I looked at the save, and it looks good. The mm looks pretty good to me. :goodjob: again DBear...

I want to congratulate everyone here -- according to f11, we are second in population! I think that's quite a feat, considering we have no luxes, and we started with no food bonuses! :king:

I don't know if we're gonna get a wonder in Carthage, but I agree it's worth a try. Maybe we should let that city grow once more; right now it's on no growth.

Our fishing villages: we have four of them. Right now two of them are on galley, one is on rax, and one is on regular sword. These cities should be concentrated on making gold. I'm okay with the galley builds as they will be useful, but the regular sword and rax are not needed. Please change these two builds to libraries, and set the cities to maximum growth. Also, each of these cities will eventually need two mined hills, if we can spare the workers. In an earlier post I outlined my method of fishing villages...please reread that post if you need to, it's important. If you want to comment on the build order, please do. I don't want to be harsh here, so please don't take this that way -- I just hope to get everyone together on this one.

Got it. :king:

:bump: :wavey: :D

Preflight
Change reg swordsman build to galley

290 BC
Discover Monarchy > Construction for now (will trade)

Pretrade summary:
Babylon knows Monarchy, Currency, Construction and has 39g
Zulu knows Currency, Construction and has 87g
Rome lacks Literature and Monarchy and has 40g
Celts knows Monarchy, Currency, Construction and has 164g
India lacks Monarchy and has 3g
England knows Currency and Construction and has 103g
Egypt lacks Monarchy and has 26g
Germany lacks Code of Laws, Literature and Monarchy and has 2g
Mongol has Currency and Construction and 140g
Iroquois lacks Philosophy, Code of Laws, Literature and Polytheism and has 0g
Spain lacks Philosophy, Code of Laws, Literature and Polytheism and has 80g

Sell Monarchy to:
Mongol for: Currency + 140g
England for: Construction + 103g

Checking Trades again
Babylon and Celts know Engineering they won't trade for 307g

Zulu: Monarchy for 87g
Rome: Literature for 40g
Spain: Philosophy for 80g
Egypt: Monarchy for 26g

Dropping lux to 0% to look at towns pre revolt, every town is going to go into disorder in anarchy. Hire clowns/taxmen as needed. In anarchy there are no MP. our lack of luxes is going to hurt here.

Revolt to monarchy: 5 Turns

Engineering is known by 2 civs so gambling on them going for Feudalism or Republic I start research on Monotheism in 50. When Anarchy is over we may be able to quicken the pace.

270 BC
Nothing much happening during anarchy, just upgrading the Curraghs and vet warriors. moving the forces to Rusaddir to prepare for invasion of Spain.

250 BC
Celts demand 38g. I tell him to go swim in the ocean. He declares war. (War happiness too much to hope for?)

190 BC
We are now a monarchy! All hail the King!
Set lux to 10%, research to 0% Monotheism in 45. 28gpt.
Changed Lepis Minor to Settler farm to settle Spain (ICS Spain?)
MM Carthage to use of all 4 bonus grassland. Changed to Hanging Gardens.

Unit costs: 46/32 (costing us 14gpt) at 42gpt we can create another 42 units. Each town we settle will save us 2gpt.

170 BC
Declare war on Spain with a force of 6 Sword and 4 Cats. (outside their borders) and then landing near Madrid

150 BC
Catapult bombardment damages 1 spear. 1 Sword dies taking Madrid. 1 Promotes to Elite. 2 Resistors. 3 Slaves.
2 Galleys die sinking Spanish Galley.

130 BC
Spains devastating :lol: counter attack consists of 4 reg Warriors. The Cats reduce them to 2/3, our Sword decimate them. Only one injury 2/4.

Babylon and Mongols now know The republic. They want all our gold and gpt for Engineering. They won't trade Republic. Hopefully they will go for Feudalism next.

110 BC
Egypt wanted Construction, told her to go swim with the Celts. She declared war as well.
Spain attacks with an archer, flawless defence, Sword promotes to elite.

Forces move towards Barcelona. Settler and reinforcements outside of Madrid in Galleys

- Roster -
mach - On Deck
dbear -
predesad -
elmarae - Just done
gunner - UP

Nice, Elma! Two elites in Spain is good news! Looks like war happiness is kicking in, too...

I like the single scientist on mono. :) Not much else to say, it looks pretty good. Oh, our fishing villages should be on harbor/libraries now, though. A few more cats, slow built, won't mean anything to our wars...

I'm curious though why you would put libraries or temples in fishing villages... My understanding is you get them to grow as much food as they can and use them to build workers or other menial things... You can never have too many cats :)

During anarchy to keep the population happy I hired alot of taxmen, for the 5 turns of anarchy we were making 18-24g :)

Yeah, I saw how much money we had, and I wondered how you did it. Nice!

The purpose of fishing villages, in my mind, is to make gold. That is what the ocean squares are good for. We do markets & libs because they essentially double the village's money. Libs also expand the city, so we can reach more ocean squares, for more gold. A decent village at size 6, working all water squares, with a market and lib, can make us 20gpt or better, depending on corruption. Notice how the market & lib can pay for themselves! We can skim workers off, sure, but we should do it when the city is at max size (i.e. when it's at size 6 and the aqueduct isn't done yet, or when all the ocean squares are being used), so the loss of population doesn't hurt the village's gold production very much.

I guess the bottom line is, if a city can't make shields, then make gold. Does this make sense?

I believe that the one thing that's really gonna carry us though this game, (since we have no luxes and no easy military access), is our economy -- we need to research, we need to buy stuff, and we need to keep our people happy somehow. So fishing villages, IMO, are going to be key.

I think that fishing villages are a standard thing, although when I looked I couldn't find an article on them. I coulda sworn that I once saw a good layout of them written down by Sirian in some sg or other, but I couldn't find it, unfortunately...

I'm pretty sure this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=96932) is the SG. I didn't look hard enough to find it, though.

Heh, thanks TimBentley. :) One for the Right In Front Of My Nose Department. :blush:

im super busy for the next two days, but want to play. Anyone want to swap? if so take it and ill take your turn.:)

I guess that's me, gunner. So got it! Not sure when I can play, but it'll probably be tomorrow. Any advice anyone?

- Roster -
mach - Up
dbear - hibernating?
predesad - permanent skip...
elmarae - Just done
gunner - On Deck, swapped with yours truly

Whittle Madrid down to 1 by building a worker. Take Barcelona and then Toledo. Chances are Spain will give use her last 2 cities in peace. Then ICS Spain for unit support. Build a settler each from the size 3/4 towns and port them over. Build more swords or may go to building Horsemen ready to upgrade to knights.
If you get a leader make an army with it but leave it empty until we can put knights in it. This is the warmonger in me... There is also the fact that it is unlikely that Spain and Iroquios know the other civs. We can be as brutal as we want as long as we wipe them out. Make peace with Spain for her remaining cities and then take her capital. Then it's the Iroq turn.

I don't know, Elmarae. :dubious: Spain is a seafaring civ also, and it's quite possible they sent curraghs out that we didn't see. I'd hate to see our rep get trashed this early.

I agree with DBear there, I'd rather not break a peace treaty. Also, I think we can wipe them out, so we shouldn't make peace unless we get gassed.

I'll try to make some mercs to trigger our ga with.

Also, I think a leader should go toward building the FP in Spain somewhere -- then we wouldn't want to ICS Spain for the support, since they will be productive cities, and we're not going to want a huge army. Remember, this isn't a warmonger game primarily; it's only one for now until we take our neighbor's lands.

Preflight -- change some builds, move some mps

T1 (90BC) Merge 2 workers into Carthage, HG in 12
Move stuff
(I) Babs establish embassy with us
HG in 11...

T2 (70BC) We take Barcelona, losing an elite sword against a killer redlined spear, grr...
(I) Minor riots, oops...Spanish warriors are making a nuisance of themselves
HG in 10...

T3 (50BC) zzz
(I) HG in 9...

T4 (30BC) zzz
(I) HG in 8...

T5 (10BC) Troops move off toward Toledo
(I) HG in 7...

T6 (10AD) zzz
(I) HG in 6...

T7 (30AD) zzz
(I) HG in 5...

T8 (50AD) We take Toledo, losing 1 sword. :dance:
Found Carthago Novo in Spain
(I) Zulu finish ToA
English finish GL
Mongols finish GW
The HG holds! :bounce: HG in 4...cross fingers...

T9 (70AD) There's a 2fer available (Feud for Eng), but Feud is waay expensive...I hold off. Maybe when mono popps up, we'll get a discount on it, and jockey Feud with that.
(I) Babs finish HG. :(

T10 (90AD) zzz

No leaders. :(

Ok, so we have two problems. I did everything I could, but we missed the HG by 3 turns, so now we have about 270 shields in Carthage with nothing to switch to. We can buy feud from Egypt for all our gold plus 38gpt, I say we do it, that way we can switch to Sun Tzu, hopefully that will hold long enough for us to switch to Sistine or something. (We really have no use for Sun Tzu.) The 2fer for Eng is gone.

The other problem is we probably can't move our cats forward anymore in Spain, because there's a wall of jungle between us and them. The only chance is if we move them along that line of hills, and hope they've built a jungle road near Seville. I'm not sure what to do about this.

Some good news: we have mercs in theater in Spain, and Utica is at a cool 10spt! We are still at only 10% lux. Spain will make peace with us for their remaining 2 cities, but if we do that the flip chances will be more than we can handle, IMO.

Teh Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Pere01_AD90.SAV)

And Spain. The red arrow marks the only way we can move our cats forward.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Pere01_Mach90_Spain.JPG

Edit: This just occurred to me: for the cat/jungle problem, maybe someone might think of something clever involving galleys...

good turns Mach! I got it. So I'll trade for Feudalism and go after spain.... should i be razing cities? or are we trying to keep them?

It looks like we could shipt our cats up and land them 1 NWof their capital, does anyone know if you can have cats land on jungle?

oook so i looked at the save, and everything looked good, however i have two concerns:

1) we only have 1 embassy (babylon) do you want me to build more during my turns?
2) troops in Spain are fairly slim, and the catapult dilemma....sucks. The way i see it we have two options:
a) heal our swordsmen and go for murcia, while that is happening, ship our cats up by seville and park them on that grassland.
B) take peace and leave them with 1 city....

hopefully i can get some response as what you guys want to do.

The Babs opened that embassy on their own. Pretty nice of them. :) I think Feudalism will cost us most of our money, so I don't think we should open any of our own right now. Can anybody think of any reason embassies will help us in our current situation?

Yeah, the cats thing is irritating. I'm okay with making peace, but do what you think you can do. I wish I had built a few more galleys during my turns, then things would be a lot easier. If you do take peace, send some workers up to build us roads for the final attack in 20 turns.

Edit...

Here's something to toy with, gunner. Although I've never done anything like it before, so I'm speaking out of my league. But what the heck.

Germany, a scientific civ, is still in the ancient age! Maybe we should gift them up: give them currency and const. They will get a free tech when we do that! And we'll still be up monarchy on them...

Worst case, if they get feud, the price of feud will go down, so we should get it from them, for monarchy plus cash.
If they get eng, we can get feud (from egypt?), then trade feud and monarchy to germany for eng (and cash?).
If they get mono, try to pry it out of them. Try monarchy and cash, or get feud and try monarchy and feud and cash, or get feud from someone and republic from the romans and try monarchy and rep and feud and cash... In this case I think we can really sell out our economy, since we'll get a lot of money back by selling mono around.

Rome is up republic and down currency. Maybe this could help...

All this is incoherent, I know, sorry. But I think gifting Germany up could be a Really Good Thing. You're going to have to play around with it and see what's possible, gunner...

Sorry, I made an edit. Please reread previous post... :)

ok, ill try and do those things you suggest.

sorry i havent played.... work/school/sports is killing me lately but i SHOULD be able to play tommorow morning, i really want to

PT-
-Change a clown in Rusicade to a tax collector
-Scout out for a jungle road to Seville.... so far not so good
-Trade Currency and Construction to Germany for 69 gold lol, and they get MONOTHEISM as their free tech...DAMN emptying our entire economy for monotheism doesnt quite cut it for bismarck... i guess ill go for feudalism, So i sign peace with Egypt and give them EVERYTHING for feudalism... and Germany still wont trade monotheism... Im sorry if i did something wrong here...

1-
-Leptis Minor builds Settler> Library
-So all the sudden a lot of AI's have Mono and germany is at parity... lol

2-
-nothin

3-
-just moving some cats...

4-
-Sabratha catapult>numidian
-kill an archer thats going for our cities

5-
-Ready to attack Murcia... lets see how it goes
- ugggh started out good, but then a redlined spear killed two swordsmen... oh well we raze Murcia.
-Im kinda nervous about all these iroqouis galleys floating around our islands..
6-
- Ok so basically these turns have gone from bad to worse... my catapult plan failed, stupid Spanish galleys sunk our ships, if you guys want to banish me from the team i would understand.
-OH, and Celts and England signed a military allaince against us
7-
-kill spanish units try to get a leader...not working just like everything else i tried these turns
8-
- swordsman fends off attacking archer and gets promoted to elite wooohooo the best thing that has happened yet haha.
-
9-
-moving units
10-
-alright im leaving it here, theres guys ready to attack Seville, theres a settler going to settle a new city in Spain and most of all there is a trade availible wiht India. Eng and Mono for Feudalism. Dont criticize the cats that are just sittin on that hill i took them with me on the trip to Seville cuz they redlined a lot of units and i was hoping to leader fish, any ways its not that bad, just some bad luck, hope the next player can figure out the whole spain situation i wish i woulda made peace with them during my turns... oh well.

Don't sweat it, gunner. :cool: I can't look at the save until after work, but it looks like you did ok. The trades happened as they happened, there wasn't anything more you could have done there, and if feud does net us mono and eng then it was all worth it. A 3fer!

Bad luck with the cat galleys, but it's not so bad -- we just lost some units we couldn't have moved in the short term anyway. Better for our (strained) economy. Meanwhile, you razed Murcia, Seville will be gone soon, so the Spanish shouldn't last much longer.

What should we do about the GA? We can pretty much trigger it at will now, as we have mercs in Spain. I think we should try to start it asap, build markets & libs in all our cities, then start the buildup toward the Great Spice War against the 'Quois. We'll need lots of galleys...

- Roster -
mach -
dbear - UP
predesad - permanent skip...
elmarae - on deck
gunner - Just Played

yeah i wasnt sure about what infrastructure we wanted in each of our cities so i kept building mostly units, i wasnt sure if we wanted librarys because we arent researching and we dont have luxuries to make marketplaces incredibly useful.

Got the save, will play tomorrow.

I took a look at the save, and it looks good. I think it's time to turn lux to 20%, so we can put some of those specialists back to work, especially in Carthage where we're working on a wonder.

yeah i wasnt sure about what infrastructure we wanted in each of our cities so i kept building mostly units, i wasnt sure if we wanted librarys because we arent researching and we dont have luxuries to make marketplaces incredibly useful.
Also, it's been awhile since I've gone to space, but we definitely are going to want markets and libs. I'm just not sure when...so you guys can trigger our GA whenever you want, and then use it for that infra. Build markets first. Once our economy is booming, we can really start up research again.

hmm i say we start the GA while finishing off spain, i wouldnt want to start another war just to have a GA. then build up infra, then go for the spices in iroqouisland

0) 270: I turn lux up to 20% as Sabratha would riot next turn and Carthage would starve. I didn't want to pull a worker off the mine just to keep Carthage fed. We have some impenetrable jungle where the cats can't go. Move settler to ruins. Seville taken with no loss. Actually, I wouldn't have minded a loss as long as the defender was redlined where the Numidian could finish off and get a Golden Age.

1) 280: Trade India Feud + 55 for Engineer and Mono. Start Chiv. Malaca built. Advance troops, have slaves from Seville clear jungle for the cats.

2) 290: Leptis Magna increases pop and riots. Put a worker on clown duty. Sabratha Numidian-->temple.

3) 300: An archer comes out of Santiago. Leptis Minor lib-->rax. I let the Numidian deal with the archer. Golden Age! [party]:dance: And the Numidian goes leet. Now we can do some REAL research.

4) 310: Lep Mag mace-->lib. Cirta galley-->rax. Santiago razed, Spanish eliminated. I razed Santiago because it was poorly placed. Build Gades 1s of ruins, start harbor. I have an extra settler, but no good place to put him. Madrid is badly placed--should be 1s. Madrid switched to harbor, Carthago Novo to FP. Need to let units heal, then we can get ready for the 'quois. Sulcis switched to mace.

5) 320: Romans ally with English against us. Utica mace-->mace, Theveste Numidian-->lib. Talk England into peace, getting them to pay 10 + 2/turn. Celts won't make a fair peace yet. Upgrade Rex to mace.

6) 330: Hippo mace-->worker. Loading galleys in prep for quois.

7) 340: Hippo worker-->settler. Lep Min rax-->worker. Rusaddir treb-->lib. Cirta changed to galley. Ask myself why was I building rax when we're going for Sun Tzu? Military leader says our army is average compared to quois. They're still in Despot and in the ancient age. Build Calaris 2s of Madrid on horses.

8) 350: Babylon declares war on Celts. Leptis Min worker-->temple.

9) 360: Utica mace-->market. Cadiz market-->lib. Move workers to hills to ZPG and max production. Cirta galley-->galley. Saldae treb-->temple. Babylon beats us to Sun Tzu :gripe::wallbash: by 4 turns. Switch it to Aqua, wasting over 400 shields. :shakehead

10) 370: Carthage starts lib. Sabratha temple-->mace. Make peace with Celts, getting 47 + 1/turn. Rome won't talk to us yet.


To Do list: Hippo is popping a settler, there is room in the marshlands between Toledo and Seville. Have slaves clear out a space and settle there on the coast. Build more galleys and load up troops from Gades for the Iroquois invasion. We are falling behind in tech. Losing Sun Tzu hurt us bad. We are 8th and the quois are in 2nd. We will need a LOT of troops to pull off the invasion.

Nice, DBear! Things are going well. I think we're getting the most out of our GA, which is really good. Keep building that infra in our core!

IIRC, I think maybe our FP city (Novo?) should be changed to courthouse -- it gets a good amount of shields, but something like 80% of them are lost to waste. If we rush that court at some point, I think we'll get the FP much faster...

What should we research after chivalry? I vote theology...no one on the mainland has it yet, so it's our best shot for trade fodder.

When should we attack the Iroquois? Our reinforcement train is gonna be long... We have an average military compared to them right now. I'm thinking we should build, attack, make a favorable peace, build, and attack again. They don't have iron, but they do have horses, and that means mounted warriors, yuck. We'll want a strong force. If we can get their horses disconnected...

- Roster -
mach - watching from the sidelines
dbear - just played
predesad - permanent skip...
elmarae - UP
gunner - on deck already!

good job wiping out the spanish! i wouldnt worry too much about the iroqouois being in 2nd place, its mostly because they have that nice big island to themselves so they have a lot of cities.

Got it. :king:

take your time, as usual im very busy.

I notice that Spain is overly corrupt it's at least 50%, towns that are producing 9 are only getting 2. In C3C the FP doesn't have the same effect as in PTW. It doesn't create a second core. So I don't see the point in putting the FP there unless it is in a city that is going to be a powerhouse. It does increase the OCN which effects corruption in all cities. I'd be more inclined to

What I propose is to move 2 cities and make Spain's territory ICS, with the grassland that will be under the jungle and marshes that area will produce alot of food, which doesn't corrupt. Every square that can be irrigated should be.

A pop 5 city with 3 irrigated grass worked means 2 specialists. That's 4 gold or 6 science per city. There are 18 sites on Spain's territory.

EDIT: Depending on how large we can get the cities; (Assuming irrigated grassland)

Pop 1: 1 worked grassland (+3 fpt)
Pop 2: 1 worked grassland (+1 fpt) 1 specialist
Pop 3: 2 worked grassland (+0 fpt) 1 specialist
Pop 4: 2 worked grassland (+1 fpt) 2 specialists
Pop 5: 3 worked grassland (+0 fpt) 2 specialists
Pop 6: 3 worked grassland (+1 fpt) 3 specialists
Pop 7: 4 worked grassland (+0 fpt) 3 specialists

With this sort of setup I would recommend going for Communism as our next govt.

Initially the towns will be set to build workers on growth, to clear the jungles. Then the workers will be added back to the towns or moved to Iroq lands to work there depending on our needs.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Pere01-370AD-Dotmap1.jpg

I await the groups opinion.

I also think we should concentrate on getting Astronomy so that we can benefit from the luxes we will gain from conquering the Iroq.

True, the FP doesn't make a second core anymore, but still it does reduce distance corruption, so it's good to put it far from the capital. I think the Spanish cities could be half-decent, with the FP there, and with courts/police stations around. But in my experience, it's more important to get it quickly.

Anyways...I've never tried anything like your plan before, so I think lets do it. It sounds good -- we need gold/beakers more than we need production, and that's what your plan will bring. Put the FP in Rusaddir -- it'll be our most productive northern city.

Blond moment no: 7. There is no fresh water on Spains Island, so I can't irrigate it. :P

Though 18 size 1 cities with 1 specialist gives us 36 gold or 54 beakers. Depending on whether we are high on research or gold we get another 18 gold or beakers.

Blond moment no: 7I wondered what that was about! :rotfl:

A Few Things...

Can you place cities directly next to one another? I've never tried, but I was under the impression you can't do that. Maybe I'm wrong, but if I'm not then it's only 17 cities...

Also, I'm not sure I understand your math. Given that an irrigated grass gives 3 food, each 2 worked grass yields one specialist, plus one from the city center. So here's how I work it, I hope I'm not confusing anyone...
Pop 1: 1 specialist (+0 fpt)
Pop 1: 1 worked grassland (+3 fpt)
Pop 2: 1 worked grassland, 1 specialist (+1 fpt)
Pop 3: 2 worked grassland, 1 specialist (+2 fpt)
Pop 4: 2 worked grassland, 2 specialists (+0 fpt)
Pop 4: 3 worked grassland, 1 specialist (+3 fpt)
Pop 5: 3 worked grassland, 2 specialists (+1 fpt)
Pop 6: 3 worked grassland, 3 specialists (-1 fpt)
Pop 6: 4 worked grassland, 2 specialists (+2 fpt)
Pop 7: 4 worked grassland, 3 specialists (+0 fpt)

There is no fresh water on Spains Island, so I can't irrigate it. Yet. :) So go for it. Sorry about the placement of Novo, I was the one to put it there...

With this sort of setup I would recommend going for Communism as our next govt.Why? With a communal govt, our Spanish cities would have the same corruption as our core cities, so in that case it wouldn't make sense to ICS Spain -- we would instead build with a normal spacing. I was thinking we'd stick with Monarchy until we can trade for some luxes, and then go the demo route.

Preflight
Trade:
All the AI's have Republic, Chivalry and Invention
Except for Zulu who is short Chivalry and India who is short Invention
Iroq is behind in techs.

Don't have much play in gold to do trades. I only hope that Zulu doesn't get Chivalry before we discover it.

380 AD

Zulu and India get the missing techs.

410 AD
Discover Chivalry > Theology in 18 (+11gpt)

430 AD
Babylon discovers Theology and starts the Sistine Chapel

470 AD
We'll have Theology in 4 (-10gpt)

Put a 1 in front of the cities in Spain so they are easily recognisable. The Pattern I was doing with them was build a worker in 10, because I want a host of workers there, I moved over the workers from our homeland as well. Then when the city has built a worker I then change it to wealth and hire a scientist, halting it's growth. Without water it's not such a powerful position, but when we discover electricity and can irrigate everywhere it will provide a lot of science or gold.

I didn't abandon Toledo or Cartho Nova because I didn't have settlers to replace them at that time, I was focusing on getting a road way from the southern spain to northern spain for preparation for the invasion of Iroqi lands.

- Roster -
mach - On Deck
dbear -
predesad -
elmarae - Just done
gunner - UP

I wondered what that was about! :rotfl:
A couple of times I posted a reply to a SG in another SG that I was playing, because the same person was in it with me. So I started counting my mistakes or blonde moments.

Can you place cities directly next to one another? I've never tried, but I was under the impression you can't do that. Maybe I'm wrong, but if I'm not then it's only 17 cities...
You can place cities as long as there is one tile between each city. Toledo and Carthage Nova are to be abandoned giving us 2 city sites each.

Also, I'm not sure I understand your math. Given that an irrigated grass gives 3 food, each 2 worked grass yields one specialist, plus one from the city center. So here's how I work it, I hope I'm not confusing anyone...
Pop 1: 1 specialist (+0 fpt)
Pop 1: 1 worked grassland (+3 fpt)
Pop 2: 1 worked grassland, 1 specialist (+1 fpt)
Pop 3: 2 worked grassland, 1 specialist (+2 fpt)
Pop 4: 2 worked grassland, 2 specialists (+0 fpt)
Pop 4: 3 worked grassland, 1 specialist (+3 fpt)
Pop 5: 3 worked grassland, 2 specialists (+1 fpt)
Pop 6: 3 worked grassland, 3 specialists (-1 fpt)
Pop 6: 4 worked grassland, 2 specialists (+2 fpt)
Pop 7: 4 worked grassland, 3 specialists (+0 fpt)

You are right... I was doing it all in my head and started to see a pattern so kept with it.

You can place cities as long as there is one tile between each city. Toledo and Carthage Nova are to be abandoned giving us 2 city sites each.Ok I see now. You have two adjacent dots in your dotmap, but that's just because the dot by Novo on the forest nw of the fishies, really ought to be on the marsh n of the fishies. :crazyeye: Eighteen cities it is.

"Iroqi lands". Heh.

When we resettle Novo, methinks we should name it Neo Novo. :lol:

I can't view the save till tonight, but all sounds good. Your "Pattern" is, of course, good. Bummer about Theology, but it was a long shot. Also our only shot. We should keep researching that path; probably our best trade bait is along there...

ok i got it, not sure when i can play.

build infra and resettle spain? or build troops and galleys?

Going back and looking at my dotmap, I saw I couldn't even follow it myself. Iol was placed in the wrong spot as well. Here's a corrected dotmap and I was even able to work in a total of 19 sites.

The Pink O's are to be settled first, then the 5 Black O's are to be cleared (marsh) and when a settler is ready to settle abandon the nearby city. Start with Toledo and work back south.

As an option, Seville can be abandoned the Yellow X and the Yellow O's settled instead. Giving a total of 19 towns.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Pere01-470AD-Dotmap.jpg

Just a warning, my schedule for the next 4-5 days will be a little unpredictable. I'll be in contact about half the time. So if my turn comes up, and you don't hear from me for 24, then DBear, could you swap with me? At the very very latest, I'll be back with a solid internet connection on Sunday.

im gonna play right now, i am trying to get this game going and i have little time so i am going to play 5 turns and pass it on, hope you dont mind!

1-
- Iroquois sign an alliance with English against us
-Babs start copurnicus
-settle 1 Rusuccuru

2-
- Settle 1 al-Kaf

IT- we lose a galley to iroquois

3-
-Abandon Seville
-Settle 1 Zouchis

IT Golden age ends. We get THEOLOGY start on printing press

4-
- Golden age kills our GPT we are at -32gpt
-Sign peace with Rome for invention and republic, i give them theology and chivalry.

5- Found 1 Gigthis

Ok, I'm back, and I can play it tomorrow. But you guys should have skipped me...

Are you guys interested in continuing this one? :hmm:

I don't know about the guys, but this gal is interested in continuing it.

Yeah, we're doing ok. This is my first emperor succession game, I'd like to see how it turns out.

Preturn -- Ok, we're behind in population now, but that was gonna happen.
When did we get into a war with the 'Quois? That's not good...
Also they have a city in Egypt...

Our golden age is over. We did ok, but A Few Things about our infra builds...
First, we should have built markets before libraries. When running max science, markets add to science because we can run a higher sci rate with them. But libs do nothing for our unit support...that's why markets before libs.
Second, our northern cities need courts.
Third, our core river cities have nothing??!!?? One of them is at size 1...was it making settlers during our GA? Woah, that was a waste... Those two cities really should have both markets and libs right now, we'd be much better off...

(I) Make peace with Gandhi and get 20g
T1 (530AD) Make an elite knight on a 'Quois MW
(I) Egypt wants 23g, I tell her to blow off...she doesn't declare.
T2 (540AD) Make peace with Mongols for 156g and 1gpt. Heh, now we can support max research almost all the way through printing press!
(I) zzz
T3 (550AD) zzz
(I) Make peace with England, just to hurt their rep
T4 (560AD) zzz
(I) zzz
T5 (570AD) zzz
(I) Extend peace with Celts
T6 (580AD) Land 12 troops near Centralia
I sell around communication with the 'Quois for some chump change
(I) We get hurt a bit by MW's
T7 (590AD) Battle of Centralia...
Elite sword kills MW, netting a GL! I put him on a boat...
I kill a few MW's and take Centralia...
Ok, we're gonna get killed in the IT, they got MW's all over the place and our troops are wounded, so I make peace with the 'Quois for 2g
I get spices from them for poly and chump change to replace our war happiness. (I don't mind if they get feud...they don't have iron!)
(I) We get printing press
T8 (600AD) Get Education from Egypt for some communications, PP, 41g, and 20gpt
Get Gunpowder from Rome for some communications, PP and 33gpt
The flip probabilities on Centralia are horrible, but there's not much we can do about that...
(I) zzz
T9 (610AD) zzz
(I) zzz
T10 (620AD) zzz

Ok, so it's gonna be a slow next 15-20 turns. A Few Things...

I hope you guys are ok with my making peace with the Iroquois -- they have a lot of MW's. Our invasion force was going to get decimated, and I couldn't hold Centralia. This way, at least we got a foothold in 'Quoisland...

I screwed up in trying to bring our leader back to our homeland. What we want is a knight army in Centralia. Send him back to do that -- don't make the army in Spain! Then we can't transport it... Please please please don't misuse him by building the FP or something! Our FP will be done in 15 in Rusicade.

I rethought and set our specialists on taxmen for the moment, so we can build up enough gold to rush the temple in Centralia. I don't want to see that flip, and it's under a lot of pressure.

It ended up being a really bad idea building libs before markets; since I had to give away the farm to get gunpowder and education, we're not doing any research for the next 20! And we're paying for all those libs. If we had built markets first, we would be building libs now, and things would be much prettier. (I'm convinced those trades were the right thing to do, since we got discounts with PP and some contacts, they are cheaper in the long run...)

During the war, the 'Quois were sending galleys down the western coast of Spain to attack our unmanned cities there. I kept two knights doing zone defense in that area to counter their landings. We might want to repeat that strategy when we attack again.

Banking and Music Theory are being passed around the AI's, the Babs are running away on tech (they started on Smith's!)...and there's not much we can do about that...

That's all I can think of. Please everyone take a look at the save and give suggestions -- we're holding on, but we're behind the mainland in a lot of ways. I'm not posting a picture since there's not much to show. I gotta get better at grabbing pictures of stuff as I go, like the battle of Centralia, to make it more interesting for lurkers...sorry guys, I'll do better next time.

Teh Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Pere01_Mach_620AD.SAV)

good turns mach!

iroquois and england signed an alliance against us during my turns.

nice job getting a toehold in iroquoisland

nice job getting a toehold in iroquoislandHee, thanks. I think my key decision was to simply let the Iroquois make their landings. I could have risked a sea campaign to clear out their galleys, but we barely had enough galleys available for a sizable landing. So while they were busy sending landing parties to Spain's west coast, I snuck our galleys up the east coast to make the landing.

Also I brought two mercs along with the party, which was huge. We got attacked by about 5 MW's just after landing, and those mercs saved our walnuts. We lost one, and a knight, but enough units stayed alive to take the city, pick off wounded MW's, and make peace. I think I killed 7 MW's on my turns, and saw about 5 more...

- Roster -
mach - Just Played
dbear - UP
predesad - skip
elmarae - on the deck
gunner - below deck

OK, I took a look at the save, and man do I have questions:

0) 620: I don't know how I'm going to keep Centralia from flipping. According to Mapstat, we need a garrison of 53 to keep it from flipping. We have 11, which gives about 5.8% chance, or roughly 1 in 18--the chance you'll roll a 2 or 12 on a pair of dice. Over several turns--them's bad odds.

Gigthis can be moved 1nw to allow a town between it and Toledo. The settler is heading 2se of Iol, next to fish. Another can be built between Zouchis and Rusgouniae.

Babylon has over 4K gold! How on earth are they doing it?

I know the idea is to ferry the knights and Hamilcar over to Centralia so the army can be formed there, but how do we keep Centralia from flipping before they get there? I sez we at least try to grow the city so we can get some of our people in there. Might even add the settlers to it instead of finishing up the ICS. We can always make more.

Elma posted a dotmap awhile ago with our (IIRC) 19 city ICS plan, so check that out for settling locations.

Hm, we can't grow Centralia the normal way, as it can only do 1fpt. Maybe you can merge a worker or two into it? That's one thought.

God I hope I didn't set us up for disaster. The best thing we can do is rush that temple in Centralia, once we have the money. That means it needs to hang on and not flip for about 10 turns. If I had thought, I would have started us on max gold two turns earlier, and we'd be much better off...

I guess another thing you could do is abandon Centralia and re-settle it as fast as you can. There should be enough room, as long as the 'Quois don't get there first. Looking at the last save, that settler in Spain could be there by your turn 6...

Judgement call, and honestly this is outside my experience...

Here's the dotmap again.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Pere01-470AD-Dotmap.jpg

There are 3 towns we have to abandon (Toledo, Iol and Cartho Nova) then resettle in the places nearby.

I recommend we only clear and road the area. Mining isn't going to do much good for that area.

0) 620: After deliberation, I decide to abandon Centralia. This leaves an area of 4 squares not taken, and I move the units to occupy those points. It will take about 6 turns to get a settler over there, but I don't think we could've held Centralia that long. Turn lux up, as Lep Mag will expand next turn and will riot without it.

Why is Sulcis building a courthouse when even working the desert it can only produce a max of 3 shields? I let it go, as it would be a waste to switch to harbor. Rusaddir getting the FP should help as well. Switch Theveste to settler.

1) 630: Cadiz + Nora courthouse-->knight. Ferry leader and knights over to Iroquoia.

2) 640: Lep Mag knight-->knight. Hadrumentum market-->rax.

3) 650: Theveste settler--knight. I used ship chaining to get the settler over quicker. If this is seen as a cheat I can do this one over, but it's allowed in GotM. Personally, I don't consider it any more exploitive than the ICS on Old Spain.

4) 660: Carthage knight-->uni. Lep Min knight-->aqua. Cirta galley-->market. Centralia rebuilt 1e of ruins. Move everyone on Iroquoia to Centralia. 1 Zama founded.

5) 670: Sabratha market-->knight. Mapstat is much better this time. We have a 1.3% chance of flipping, but we only need a garrison of 25 and we already have 16.

6) 680: Oea galley-->market. Ferrying more units and workers over to prevent the flip.

7) 690: Galley heads sw to explore sea lane. Nothing there.

8) 700: Cadiz knight-->uni. Joined worker to Centralia. 1 Tunis built. I'm running out of Carthaginian names, so I used cities in that area for names.

9) 710: Iroquois allys w/Babylon vs. Celts. Hadrumentum rax-->knight.

10) 720: Rusicade rax-->aqua. Nora knight-->rax. Shoulda had Nora build rax first, didn't catch it. Flipping chance is down to 0.6%. Just a few more troops will make it safe. Realize I screwed up the ICS by building 1 Zama. 1 Iol should be 1s, 1 Toledo should be 1sw, 1 Zama should be 1ne. This allows 2 more towns on the coast.

Pwshew! Glad to hear you were able to hang on to that corner of Iroquasia. :goodjob:

The ship chaining is fine with me...

I'm up in two other games tonight, so I don't know if I'll get around to looking at the save, but I'll try. Meanwhile, I guess we're still preparing to push to the spices. And what shall we do about this tech situation? Our gpt deals will last another, what, 8 turns? I see nobody has chemistry yet, so I guess we should push toward that. Maybe we won't be the last to it, which should give us a leg up. Seems like a long shot, but I don't have a better idea...

- Roster -
mach - :rockon:
dbear - just played
predesad - skip
elmarae - UP
gunner - on deck

Got it. Will play soon.

Sorry have to ask for a skip, have a flu or head cold. Can't think right at the moment.

Can't think right at the moment.As opposed to who? Certainly not me... :lol: Get better, elma. :)

Gunner, you're up.

- Roster -
mach - on deck
dbear - just played
predesad - skip
elmarae - :vomit:
gunner - UP
________________

okay guys, seems you are doing a great job w/out me, i think i will be able to play whewn my turn comes up again so I can be taken off skip

Hey, welcome back! :wavey:

Since DBear was the last to play, and gunner hasn't claimed it yet, I guess you could take it now if you wanted it. If it was ok with gunner...

fine with me i cant play today, and im not sure when i will be able to....

thanx gunner, and Mach for the suggestion, i go tit now and hopefully play tonight, if i can get caught up on what's going on in the game

ok, i got in 7 turns last night & was gonna finish today, but i think i had better just hang it up and let the next player have it because i have a hectic schedule the next 2 days:

preturn:

-Theveste mm for growth, it is by a lake and should be allowed to grow to at least size 7
-Nora looks like a fishing village to me, w/ extra bonus of fish, changed production from barracks to aqueduct

-Utica - library -> university my thoughts are it is by a river, needs to grow above size 6 so mm will be necessary, also a good commerce spot


-Leptis Magna - knight -> harbor, looks like a good fishing village to me, then those grassland tiles can be given to be worked by Theveste when it is allowed to grow, of course, maybe more knights are needed for a war effort against Iroquois

1-730-moved knights toward iroquois, moved some workers to get to mainland, more work to do there, i think, workers at centralia moved into iroquois territory to explore, they wont get booted and there is no point in mining those hills

2-740-moved 2 knights into centralia, continue working on mines in old spain, i guess for lack of anything better, but prolly just a waste of time, too bad no fresh water for irrigation

-mongols ask for peace extension, we agree, for now

3-750-nothing much

-theveste - knight -> granary; dogpile seems to be on the celts, perhaps this will be used as an advantage in the near future

4-760-nothing much

-leptis magna - harbor -> aqueduct; sabratha - knight -> knight

5-770-lining up ship chain to run from mainland to iroquois, rushed tmeple in centralia, workers being brougt to mainland to chop forest and mine some mountains, changed production in sabratha & hama-something to merc & med inf respectively, we need some mps, w/ temple build the need for more units in centralia should not be so pressing, i suppose after some more infrastructure we can load up for war against the iroquois, if that is the plan

-ham-something - med inf -> granary, this city is by a river and will make an excellent fishing village, i suggest once granry is built mm to get citizens off mined hills and let it grow, centralia - temple -> barracks (mixed feelings, barracks could help with war against iroquois, a place for quick unit healing if needed, a harbor would allow us to grow it a little or keep the status quo of 2 citizens, one a specialist, otherwise converting to specialist starves city), russadir - FP -> marketplace, could make a nice fishing village & market gives immediate benefit over anything else, FP there seems to have done little overall for commerce, our corruption went from 46 to 37

6-780-tried to negotiate a deal with the celts, they have chemistry & are at war with everyone but the english and ourselves (& the iroquois who they do not know) but the deal would have cost 25gpt plus war with 5 civs meaning a drastic reduction in trading partners, on the plus side, if the celts agreed to peace with even one of these civs the deal would be cancelled and we could then freely negotiate peace with all those civs and the gpt deal cancelled, but decided against it; irrigated plains after forest chop

-suprise suprise, the iroquois did boot our workers after some exploration, hippo - market -> granary

7-790-extend peace with iroquois and buy spices for theology (they have nothing else to offer and we need the spices)

at this piont i had saved & went to bed, not really sure what the immediate needs are, but i was planning some mining on some mountains by those workers i brought over to get more production when needed, also it is getting real clsoe to time to start using our fishing villages as fishing villages, we need to clear out room for our river cities to grow and work tiles with other cities working coast / sea tiles. getting 3 MPs in each of those cities and letting them grow as big as we can should be a high priority, IMHO. There is also an option to sign an MA against the Celts with the Babs for 400+ gold. I hesitated in this because I was still uncertain about trying to work a chem deal.

no pic, because one is not really necessary.

good turns, so who's up? me? if so i might need a skip...

Um, Pred, why trade for spices when we were going to take it from them when the treaty expired? That's what the garrison at Centralia was for.

Well, the spices trade occurred since we extended the peace treaty -- since we're locked in peace for the next 20, we might as well get the spices for the duration. But why extend that peace? Did you judge we didn't have enough troops up there, pred?

- Roster -
mach - zzz
dbear - zzz
predesad - just played
elmarae - UP (Feeling better yet?)
gunner - on deck

Well, the spices trade occurred since we extended the peace treaty -- since we're locked in peace for the next 20, we might as well get the spices for the duration. But why extend that peace? Did you judge we didn't have enough troops up there, pred?

- Roster -
mach - zzz
dbear - zzz
predesad - just played
elmarae - UP (Feeling better yet?)
gunner - on deck

No, I didnt think we had enough troops up there yet & our lack of defense in Spain worried me. I had not really mentioned it, there was an abundance of galleys ferrying around the area in and out of view. If they get a few mounted warriors in Old Spain they could rip us apart there with what we have in our garrisons, IMO. Also, guess as a consequence of having not been around, I had not got the impression we were going to immediately invade the Iroquois once that intial peace treaty expired, that was a mistake on my part, not asking before making the trade, but on that last turn, our deal for the spices had expired and we really needed the spices, I was not thinking about war immediately, so I tried to make a deal to get them. I had hoped that simply extending the peace would be enough to get spices, but it was not. My advice if an immediate war is the plan is to continually extort them and violate their borders, etc to provoke them into declaring. Sorry guys, I tried to read through everything, but there were several pages & I never got a full impression of when the next war would occur. Production in main cities was so geared for infrastructure with but a few cities producing units, I was more under the impression we were trying to get our core capable of supporting self research and that that might be a higher priority than the war.

To sum it up, prolly a bad move, but for good reasons of my own, but still, my apologies because I fully understand the other point of view. I should not have taken that turn but should have waited for the next cycle so to have a better view of what was going on. Sorry guys.

To sum it up, prolly a bad move, but for good reasons of my own, but still, my apologies because I fully understand the other point of view. I should not have taken that turn but should have waited for the next cycle so to have a better view of what was going on. Sorry guys.No no, don't apologize! We hadn't really spoken of when we'd start the next Iroquois war, so it was a judgement call, and you may have made the correct one. They had a lot of MW's when I invaded them 20 turns ago. IMO the key to our next war with them would be our ability to stand up to their MWs until our knight army can find and pillage their horses. If we don't have enough troops to weather that storm and still take some cities while the army is elsewhere, then you did the right thing. (I could be wrong, but I don't think our next war with them will be one of extermination -- we're just not strong enough for that.)

Just so you know, I dealt with the defense of Spain with just a few knights on zone defense. It was easy enough...and kinda fun to watch them chase undefended cities with MWs just to have them defeated. But I wouldn't expect them to make many landings next time, with us already on their island. I understand your point about their boats already in the water...some zone defense should take care of that next time, too. I guess I'm just saying I don't think we need any strong defenses in Spain.

No, I don't think we need strong defenses in Spain, but we do need enough to play zone defense & these should be knights for the extra movement, IMO & IIRC, there are only swords / med inf in Spain. We should count on at least one landing from the Iroquois on Spain, but the chances of such a landing I think will go down as time passes between the last war and this one. & yes, they have a lot of MWs, my "invading" workers spotted a bunch of htem moving here and there. Also, I was hoping to "illegally" scout more of their territory with a couple workers.

I think our next war should be extermination, we should take their land as soon as we are able to help our own economy, I really like what was done in Spain with the ICS, the Iroquois have fresh water, so we can support more specialists if we could repeat that maneuver.

with my busy scheduele and my inferior warmongering abilities i would rather not play the war turns on this just to let you guys know..... :)

Okay I'm back after a bad bout of bronchitis and a bad reaction to pencillin, apparently I'm allergic to it. I'm not 100% but I will try to keep my commitments as I can.

A plan I had in the back of my mind and that I've now started to think on during my stay in bed. Was to jump our palace to the mainland when we get a sizeable foothold and then ICS the 3 islands to provide beakers and/or coins.

Edit: Just noticed I am up: Got it

A plan I had in the back of my mind and that I've now started to think on during my stay in bed. Was to jump our palace to the mainland when we get a sizeable foothold and then ICS the 3 islands to provide beakers and/or coins.

Edit: Just noticed I am up: Got it


Was it really in the works to get a sizable hold on the mainland, and is that really going to be feasible? It means playing warmonger for quite a while. It is not so much that i am against this approach but I would really like a drawn out plan for incorporating this idea, because such a move would, IMO, hamper our bid for space race. If we are going to try that then perhaps it would be best to go for domination.

Don't take my comments as objections, just curious about how this would play out. ON a side note, once we claim the Iroquois island we would have every strategic resource available at this time (iron, horses, saltpeter) and would be capable of massing an army, resource wise. I think if we go to the mainland (not possible until magnetism / navigation) we switch from space race to domination.

Well it is more a plan for the future if it looks viable. If we take a sizeable slice of the mainland then we ICS the islands after jumping the palace over there and making our core on the mainland for faster reinforcements etc, without having to ferry units over the ocean. I'm not set in stone about it but it was just a thought.

I'm going to be more delayed with playing my turns. I have a doctors appointment and other things to take care of. If the next player can play I'll swap.

Elmarae, I am inclined to not go to the mainland ever, I don't even so much as care if we ever even put a unit on the mainland period, let alone take any cities. My thoughts about our strategy are:

1 - take over iroquois island

2 - improve infrastructure of current core

**(1 & 2 being done somewhat simultaneously)

3 - focus on infrastructure with a minimum # of units, enough to defend ourselves form an overseas attack and keep the AI from constantly trying to extort us

4 - ICS iroquois island, explore beneifts of FP to see if any of the southern "spanish" cities could yield positive benefits beyond merely ICS / wealth

5 - focus on infracstructure

6 - support self research and keep up w/ AI, brokering as much as possible, hope to import lux, provoke wars in which we would be silent partners to disrupt trades to free up said lux

7 - did i mention focus on infrastructure??

8 - build Apollo and Space Ship parts and launch

IMHO, by trying to invade the mainland we will distract ourselves from the goal and our civ will suffer, we cannot fall seriously behind in tech and hope to win space race, our economy given our lands is going to be fragile (hopefully improved when fishing villages are fully operational) Getting a nice chunk of the mainland and ICS the 3 islands would be more feasible if we did not have to wait for navigation / magnetism. This means the AI will be nearly in the industrial age or already in the industrial age when we are preparing to invade, which means rails. By the time we do get the sizable chunk of land we would then be hardpressed to get our new infrastructure up and running once the palace jump is made (any conquered cities will automatically lack libraries and unis because of the culture factor) Also to consider, having our core on the mainland leave sus much more vulnerable to attack which further distracts from Space Race. As it is, all we really need for defense is a decent size patrol to watch for a stack of invading ships and then play Mach's zone defense if we do not wipe out the force before a landing is made. Using our patrol we can easily determine the max size of any invasion force by the number of transorts / galleons / etc and be fully prepared to meet the attack, our island is a fortress for the Space Race, IMO.

However, should you deem that a change to Domination is in order then your idea is prolly a good one. Perhaps I have tunnel vision or am failing to see the whole of your idea, but I am always interested in fresh approaches. But as you said, it was an idea "for the future if it was viable" Unless warmongering efforts are undertaken to make it viable I don't it will be.

btw, it's good to be back and able to discuss strat.

anyway, I am interested in listening if you have an alternative thought for why we should go to the mainland.

I guess it's the warmonger in me... I don't like having to ferry units across the ocean and by making our production core on the mainland through conquest and jumping the palace we could slowly take the rest of the lands.

But if we are aiming for a SS Victory, then a more reserved approach is to be made. I've never done a SS Victory before, I'm too aggressive, that patch of ground over there always looks more greener than the patch I have.

I agree with pred, I think that invading the mainland for domination would be difficult and long, so we should go to space. And in that case, invading the mainland for fun and land would simply delay our victory. So we should take the 'Quois, then turtle up and defend...and research, which is why I like the ICS plan; it brings beakers.

On that note, keep an eye on chemistry, elma. I think it is currently a monopoly on the mainland. Keep researching it full blast. If it starts to get passed around, try to buy it (we should get a discount) before the last civ gets it, so maybe we can get a 2fer or 3fer and catch up a bit.

I guess it's the warmonger in me.

That's what I thought, and I must admit the warmonger in me says, "Yea, let's load up and go take the mainland." But I think realistically we have a better shot at SS than domination, resource distribution could be a problem but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

:bump: 678910

Elmarae what are the prospects of taking the turn, not trying to rush you, just checking in, I know you've been sick and all.

Sorry, in my previous post I asked for a swap, at the moment the earliest I could play would be sunday afternoon.

yeah, i saw the swap, but didn't seem like any takers, tomorrow afternoon will be fine if no swap

Hey guys, anyone want to continue this one? Predesad is still half-out-of-contact, but we could still go on if anyone is interested.

yes, we need to continue, Elmarae did you just want to take a skip?

Yes will have to skip, my computer had to be formatted and now I can't find my C3C CD to reinstall it. I was using a :nono: no-cd patch to play C3C and put my CD somewhere safe :blush:

ok, gunner! Yer up!

gunner?? are you out there

okay, while i hate to be a pain i think it's time to skip gunner, i am not reliable right now and with this game sitting so long in between players with no activity or even discussion it will die. anyway, sorry if i offend anyone.

mach - up
dbear - on deck
predesad - just played
elmarae - skip requested
gunner - skip no response

also, Mach I hate to call you out here, but i asked you to look after the game during my instability, so could you be a little more demanding of the other players if need be ;)

sorry pred, been busy...have 4 games going now, amongst other things, so when elma ekipped and gunner didn't show up, i thought people weren't interested...

i got it, will try to play tonight.

sorry pred, been busy...have 4 games going now, amongst other things, so when elma ekipped and gunner didn't show up, i thought people weren't interested...

i got it, will try to play tonight.

it won't die as long as i can find at least a couple players other than myself willing to continue, my situation will hopefully be straightened out in a few weeks. i think elmarae is still interested but health has just been a problem and dbear i think is still interested, gunner's absence could just be a fluke

Preturn -- Things look pretty good, I MM a bit, switch Hippo to lib, Theveste to knight.
Hm, some nice builder turns, unless Hiawatha declares. Maybe he'll fall for our worker bait...
I'm not a big fan of this min into chem stuff, but ok. We'll find out what happens to discounts when we do min runs.
(I) Chemistry appears! In the hands of the Celts...

T1 (800AD) Brennus won't give up chem for all our gpt.
(I) Indians finish Bach, some civs start Smiths...they have econ!

T2 (810AD) Celts are hanging on to their chem monopoly.
We can trade WM with some civs now...so they got nav...
(I) zzz

T3 (820AD) I make some world map deals for chump change because I can.
(I) Trade routes have opened up! Chem passed around! Time for some deals!

T4 (830AD) Buy chem from Mongols for 510g & 56gpt
Buy Astro from Germany for chem & 8gpt
Buy banking from Rome for chem & 1gpt
Sell astro to Celts for econ & 12g.
Sell iron to India for ivory & 370g.
Start the burning into physics
(I)

T5 (840AD) zzz
(I) zzz

T6 (850AD) zzz
(I) zzz

T7 (860AD) zzz
(I) zzz

T8 (870AD) zzz
(I) Celts destroyed.

T9 (880AD) zzz
(I) zzz

T10 (890AD) zzz

Sorry turnlog is kinda sketchy, but really all that happened was those trades, some mm, some builds, and worker moves.

Next player: Keep burning into physics. We'll never get there first, but try to buy it when someone does get it. We should have a discount, and hopefully a 2fer or better.
The 'Quois haven't discovered gunpowder yet. We should attack in 10 turns, we're all ready.
Builds are up for debate -- it's all infra right now, probably not a good thing...
We need more size 7 cities for unit support.

Teh Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Pere_001_SG_0890_AD.SAV)

Mach, we should have more discussion on this, and I did touch on it haphazardly, but we should have done a deal to take advantage of the celts plight, everyone was at war with them. we should have tried to buy chem form them for the gpt, then when they were eliminated we owe no more gpt, or we should have included an alliance against the celts as part of the trade for chem, then when they are destroyed, we owe no more gpt. these types of deals do not give a rep hit.

not criticizing, just pointing out a helpful strat for the future. good job on the trades though and helping our tech situation out.

OK, got the save. Build up for the quois.

OK, got the save. Build up for the quois.

oops, sorry forgot to post the turn thingy, but thanx for picking it up quick dbear, if you manage to play it this weekend I am pretty confident i can also manage my turns this weekend, not to pressure you to play it too soon. once your turns finish our peace with iroquois should end, leave me in good shape, please. :D

mach - just played
dbear - up
predesad - on deck
elmarae - skip requested
gunner - skip no response

My computer is finally stable and I found my C3C CD in an Eric Claypton CD Case... gods I must have been off with the pixies when I put it away.

Anyway that means I can step back up to the plate, just tell me when to take my turn and I will.

@Presdad Are you sure that having an alliance against a dying civ won't cause a rep hit? I was pretty sure it did, because when the civ dies the deal is broken thus you get a rep hit.

@Presdad Are you sure that having an alliance against a dying civ won't cause a rep hit? I was pretty sure it did, because when the civ dies the deal is broken thus you get a rep hit.
It only causes a rep hit if you kill the civ.

So I should have added alliance against the Celts into our tech deals. Sorry about that guys. I was cognizant of our rep, that's why I didn't trade gpt with the Celts...

Good luck, DBear

0) 890: Not much to tell. Decide to get workers onto the mainland. Why are we paying out so much in gold? I have to switch a scientist to taxman to balance the budget.

1) 900: Lep Mag aqua-->bank. Cadiz uni-->aqua. How in the world does Babylon have nearly 15000 gold? I'm confused--are we building up for the Quois are building infrastructure at home? Looks more like infrastructure, so that's what I'm doing. Our advisor sez we're mighty compared to the Quois.

2) 910: Lep Min riots--shift fisher to scientist. Rusaddir market-->lib. MM to max production.

3) 920: Rusicade aqua-->numid (MP)

4) 930: Shipping maces to Centralia.

5) 940: Babylon declares on Rome. We are falling behind in tech, so we ally w/Babs to get Physics. trade Physics to Egypt for Metal. Trade England Physics for Nav + Music. Trade Germany Physics + metal for Demo. Start Magnets.

6) 950: Cirta lib-->numidian

7) 960: A German galley appears off the homeland. Hippo lib-->knight. Sabratha aqua-->uni.

8) 970: England allies with Babylon vs. Rome. Rusicade numidian-->bank. Saldae aqua-->mace.

9) 980: Trade maps with Germany and Zulu. Zulu doing 1CC. I just notice that the Quois have a city on the mainland.

10) 990: Carthage cathedral-->bank. Utica uni-->mace.

Successor: May think about disbanding some of the workers for income. But then we'll need them to ICS Quoisland. The treaty with Quois ends next turn, take 'em down.

I've got it and will hopefully play it tonight or tomorrow

Elmarae - glad everything is good for you to go, I would say go ahead and take a trun now, but you're up right after me in the turn order

mach -
dbear - just played
predesad - up
elmarae - on deck
gunner - skipped no response

I'm currently up in RL03 and likely to be up in SGOTM6 just after that, so you can take your time :)

Not good, not good at all. I think the problem with this game is our land really sucks, our territory is awful. On top of that we have never seemed to dedicate our resources to anything, we are always halfway doing this or that. We move in one direction, the next player sees problems and tries to move in another direction, th enext player sees problems . . . But the big thing is our land just sucks. Well, without anymore delay:

preturn: Oea, Nora, Theveste, Leptis Minor - changed production from uni to bank, builds faster and our tax rate is more inclined to taxes than science; Hadrumetum temple to granary, plan to let it grow and work coast tiles for commerce; Hippo - knight to merc, we need MPs, happiness is a real issue and is limiting our growth, we cant afford to raise the luxury rate and mps are needed to help our happiness; sell our source of iron to the Mongols for 49 gpt (gasp!!)

(i) - Iroquois come calling to extend peace, I say no way, they sank a galley, mounted warriors appear everywhere, galleys approach Old Spain, and their workers seek refuge elsewhere; Cirta - merc - harbor; Cadiz - Aqueduct - bank (elect to go long route with bank here and work the sea squares for commerce which is desperately needed. My thoughts are use some fishing villages as fishing villages now & slow build improvements, while others build th einprovements, then use those cities as fishing villages and MM the slow building fishing villages to build faster, hope this makes sense

1 - 1000AD - added 3 workers to Hippo & 1 to Utica to get to 7 citizens; Phoenician sinks Iroquois galley & promotes; kill 1 spear, 1 archer, and 6 mounted warriors, no promotions, leaders or losses; builk of forces move towards Tonawanda

- lose sword to Mounted warrior; roman galley shows up off coast of Old Spain, start playing zone defense; Hadratum - granary - warrior (mp), Rusaddir - library - warrior (mp), Sulcis - habor - wealth, Hippo - merc - warrior

2 - 1010AD - pillage Iroquois saltpeter with army, army attacks musket in Tonowanda, wins, but loses 8 HP (whew!), kill 4 MW & continue advance upon whatever that city is , added worker to Hadrum, Rusaddir, & 4 to Sulcis, renog peace with England, get 21 G + 4 gpt

- lose merc & med inf; mongols declare on Babylon; some other ship comes along & knocks off roman galley; utica merc - warrior (mp), Oea - bank - warrior (mp)

3 - 1020AD - kill 1 spear & 1 mounted warrior; almost everyone has all techs except magnetism, we still need 11 turns, thogh research can soon be turned up, but it's still not going to happen; sell Music Theory to Zulu for 2 G & WM, we now have full view of Iroquois island

- Hippo & Utica build warriors, bth start on warrior again

4 - 1030AD - kill 3 muskets w/ no losses, capture Tonawanda (spices & saltpeter) elect not to raze it, but also elect not to defend it: any open territory is an invitation for another civ to plop down a settler while we are at war, it will flip most likely, why not let the iroquois capture it back, then recapture to whittle down the population & reduce flip risk?; rush barracks in Centralia for 60 G; adjust science rate, magnetism in 6 turns w/ +5 GPT now that old gpt deals have expired, but will this be enough, I doubt it.

Iroquois recapture Tonowanda, steal 1 G from its vaults; Hippo, Utica, & Oea build warriors - warrior, Centralia - barracks - harbor

-seems to be dogpile on Babylon, we have alliance with them against Rome, the Mongols & Zulu have both delcared on them

5 - 1040AD - kill spear & longbow to retake Tonawanda (note: am waiting for army to heal before real action), kill a couple more spear & a longbow, no losses, sink iroquois galley (as I play zone defense in Old Spain, my cats bombard their galleys along the coast); Zulu have only one city, in hopeless terrain, ally w/ Babs against them for dyes & 84 G; Babylon, India, & Mongols have Magnetism

- we lose a sword to an archer, Iroquois & Babs sign MA against Rome; Babs ask us for MA vs Mongols, we must say no due to current deal with them which rakes in 49 gpt; Utica & Hippo - warrior - warrior, Rusicade - wariror - harbor, Saldae - med inf - warrior, Cirta - harbor - aqueduct

6 - 1050AD - army needs only 1 more turn to heal, send forces towards St Regis, fortify 1 knight in TYonawanda to possibly quell resistance so I can starve since Iroquois not advancing on the city now; kill 1 spear, 1 archer, 1 MW; move warriors around to needed MP sites

- Iroquois got iron from somewhere, they have knights, kills a med inf; Utica - wariror - warrior, Hippo - warrior - university, Sabratha - lirbary - uni, Oea - wariror - uni (slow build);

7 - 1060AD - Army kills 1 spear @ St. Regis; start rehooking up saltpeter; realize Rusicade has never built harbor, add it to build queue to be built after bank?; even with those knights, I think we can wipe out Iroquois with what we have on their island, I hope depending upon if they have any more muskets and if they get too many pikes

- Iroquois kill sword, but 2 of their knights lose to 1 of ours & he goes Elite, has to retreat to heal down to 2 HP; Utica - warrior - bank, Saldae - warrior - warrior

8 - 1070AD - Army kills spear & capture St. Regis, kill Knight, not usre what to do about 2 captured Iroquois cities, hope they don't flip??

-Iroquois plop 2 MW's on our mainland, Rome does the same w/ a Knight by St. Regis; Egypt & Bab sign MA vs Rome, Magnetism discovered; Leptis Minor - bank - uni; Tonawanda flips

9 - 1080AD - not a good time for Tonawanda to flip, we had one knight inside hoping to quell so we could starve, another knight outside waiting to retake if it should flip, the iroquois killed our knight waiting to retake right before the city flipped; we pillage the saltpeter we had just hooked up, move all units out of St. Regis, either the Romans or Iroquois who both have a knight in the area will take it back. We trade Magnetism to England (or was it Egypt?) for Theory of Gravity. Move some units around to deal with the 2 MWs on our mainland.

Prolly should not have done the trade because I am going to stop here. THe MWs should not be able to take any cities, but may kill a few units, but we should have units in place to kill them next turn, 2 swords & a med inf.

Perhaps we should head for Salamance to pillage their capitol and ruin their trade, my war efforts seem to have been a great failure, perhaps it is even time to sue for peace, but we still have that army, maybe we should just raze everything? but doing that means other civs will claim that territory. My plan was to get the saltpeter hooked up and then upgrade our knights to cavs by trading for Mil Trad, but the flip killed that.

We need more units for this war, bottom line, because we dont have enough units to fight the war and take cities, fight off the counter attacks, and park outside cities to retake the flips. I don't think there were anymore units up there then when I had the last turns. Prolly I should have halted infrastructure, this is what I mean about trying to do different things at the same time, if we are going to take over Iroquois we need to just do it and put infra on hold period, once they got iron & built those knights . . .

Anyway, there is a trade with India ivory for iron that can be cancelled at any time to build units unless we decide to abandon this plan. I think the war was either premature or we waited too long. It would have been good to try to invade with cats / swords, now things could get messy once Nationalism is discovered and MPPs are signed . . .

Research, IMO, we should start a prebuild sometime for ToE, research mediciine, which I started but no research done yet so it can be changed with no penalty, and work towards Sci Meth, then take those 2 techs which give us what we need for Hoover's (another prebuild started about the same time as the one for ToE, but this prebuild needs to have a river in its radius because that's a requirement for Hoover.

On a positive note, thanx to all the warrior MPs happiness is not so much of a concern, very few specialists are being used, with the exception of the ICS in Old SPain of course. Lux is still at 20%, but will likely remain there. At some point we also need to switch to Democracy to continue our bid for space race, but the war is in the way of that now.

I only hope when we get Steam Power (which Germany, Babylon, Mongols, and somebody else have) we end up with about 5 coal resources.

Unfortunately, my temporary playing solution is about to expire and I will have to take another abscence from this game, hope I get back before it is over, good luck.

good news, may playing may not be interupted after all, wont know for sure until later this week

mach -
dbear -
predesad - just played
elmarae - up
gunner - on deck

I'm currently up in the SGOTM6, thats at least 10 hours of intensive civing so It will be a day before I get to this so I'll either swap or play asap.

okay, i really dont want to skip elmarae, but it hurts letting it sit this long inactive so I have two alternatives:

elmarae post if you can take the turn in the next day or two

if elmarae cannot, whoever posts a "got it" first take the turn and it will count as a swap with elmarae

Unfortunately I can't play before the weekend, so DBear or gunner, you want it? Otherwise I'll take it on Saturday.

Ugh, I can't do it. I'm already up in another SG.

I'm sorry this SGOTM is taking longer than I expected. I might be able to get to this one in a day or so. If someone can swap that would be good.

hopefully someone will play it by tomorrow, I would take it, but I just played

I just finished the SGOTM turns. playing it now.

Preflight
End the Ivory for Iron deal with India (it's after 20 years)
End the war with Rome.
Change some builds to Knights to reinforce the attack on the Iroquis

1. 1090AD
Advancing as fast as the catapults can progress. Next turn I should take possession of Saltpeter and our FIRST lux. :)

2. 1100AD
Capture Tonawanda with the loss of one MDI.

3. 1110AD
Moving forces together

4. 1120AD
Retreating units

5. 1130AD
Finish the Hero Epic in Carthage

6. 1140AD
Minor Combats mostly we won

7. 1150AD
And again some minor combats.

8. 1160AD
More advances by the Iroquois, which are put to the sword.

9. 1170AD
Iroquois want peace. Refuse

10. 1180AD
some muskets and cannons on the mainland are set on goto orders to Sulcis.
Iroqouis will accept peace. German galley off Spain's eastern coast, I suspect a sneak attack coming.
We have control of our first LUX! :)
The 5 galleons are setup in a ship chain, they recently off loaded so they are on the return trip.

- Roster -
mach - On Deck
dbear -
predesad -
elmarae - Just done
gunner - UP

good job, elmarae, i have only one concern, the flipping of tonawanda, we possessed it before only to see it flip back, we might consider getting settlers there to raze & rebuild to avoid massive flips

The rest of the Iroquios towns we should raze. Starve Tonwanda and St Regis down to one and join one or 2 of our workers and they shouldn't flip. I'll do a proposal for ICS the Iroquis lands in a while. I see great things for when we get Medicine, we should be able to trade it for alot of gold and techs.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Pere01_1180_ICS.gif
By the time we get to doing this, we should have railroads. So every grassland worked with rail and irrigation will provide 1 specialist. The city square itself will also provide 1 specialist. It will require 2 plains to provide 1 specialist. Deserts only provide 2 food thus don't provide for anything except growth.

the only problem with razing those Iroquois cities, as soon as we start doing that other civs will start plopping down towns of their own in the vacated territory.

during my turns those towns had full resistors, meaning we could not starve until the resistors or at least one of them was quelled, that never happened for me before it flipped, do you remember how many resistors we had this time?