World
Standard size
Continents, 70% water
Wet, warm, 4 billion.
SGLs on
All standard victory conditions on.
Difficulty: emperor, DG?
Civ = to be decided, I'd prefer babs

Signed:
Bezhukov
LKendter
open
Zavior

I'd prefer that players would have some RaR expirience.

Is this a 25K OCC, or simply a game with a 25K goal?

I'd being interested in playing, preferably DG.

Its not OCG. I find that goes off my limits. 5CC I can handle somehow, but OCG gets too hard(or boring :crazyeye: ) for me.

So its just a game with with 25k goal.

Bezhukov, any preferences for civ?

Why not, it is getting hard to find enough RaR games. Sign me up.

No real preference on civ. I would prefer a civ with some cheap culture buildings.

Please get a start with food bonus. Remember the tribe can move 2 in any terrain to hunt for a better start. If we simply get a grassland start we have no chance. RaR need a food bonus city.

I was thinking about 1 food bonus and lot of hills / mountains ;)

I was thinking about 1 food bonus and lot of hills / mountains ;)
:vomit: :vomit:

Enough said?

These arent the best starts, but I think we can manage.

Screenshots to follow.

Number 1.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/BabStart1.JPG

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Number 2.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/BabStart_2.JPG

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Number 3.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/BabStart3.JPG

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Number 4.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/BabStart4.JPG

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Well, the problem is you chose a civ that can't see all the food bonuses yet. Expansionist is good for this (and getting some techs from huts). For this reason, I'd also suggest Panagea. I like Russia best - sci gives cheap culture and more likely sci leaders and Cossacks have no support costs (not to mention 2 xtra hp and blitz), so you can build as many as necessary and the ones you have can do double duty.

Yeah, that could be another possibility. I might do it tomorrow.

#1 isn't too bad with 2 cattle and 3 mountains for long-term shields. I still prefer a coastal location for additional wonder possibilities.


#2 is an awkward 1 from the coast, and a single fruit isn't that strong. Once we can irrigate there are FAR to few high shield spots.


#3 with 1 fruit won't really kick in for shields until irrigation. This won't be the 20K city. It needs more early growth to gain very early wonders for tourism and long bonus time.


#4 is a NO GO. It is to long before you can clear swamps and jungles. Lack of river means low revenue.

If anyone is willing to roll some pangaea russian starts it would be great. I'll do it myself later today.
But I'd still prefer to choose from starts above.

#1 looks good to me. Just found on the Forest 2 SE. You do not want the 25k city to be at a river, since this way you can build a Major Port which gives another cheap 1cpt. And with that 2 Cows, you can pumpt out the first Settler soon enough.
I know this wastes the AGR bonus for this city, but you won't spent much time in Chiefdom anyway. And city #2 can go to that river (exactly where the Worker is, and lend the Cow occasionally), and pump out Cultivators fast enough.
Note with an AGR Civ, you do already know Cultivation, thus you cannot expect any further gigantic Food boni to show up.

#2-4 suck.

We still need one player. Anyone?

>Note with an AGR Civ, you do already know Cultivation, thus you cannot expect any >further gigantic Food boni to show up.

Domestication is the relevant tech here, is it not?

I'd also prefer to found the first city on a hill, and would like to build significant tourism without having to take the sidetrack to seafaring for ports. The 1 cpt is really irrelevant in the long run. Better to have the option to go large sooner.

Domestication is a great tech. You need to be expansionist to get it. It shows Camel, Horses and Pigs.

Hmm, I think we all agree with starts, 1 is the best. I might upload it if you want to start, bezhukov.

We still miss one player, but that should be fixed soon.

I do not agree that start one is the best. The key to 25K is getting a lot of early wonders for tourism built. We can do nothing to improve those grassland tiles until the time for tourism is already past (irrigation is a MA tech, and grass can't be mined). I'll do some starts with Russia later tonight to illustrate the difference if you would prefer.

Now if sheep showed up on the mountains...

Well, mining mountains is very powerful as you must know.. And we have plenty of them ;)
And with 2 cows(to be irritigated later) we will have enough food.
I think its not bad city site at all.

If you want to get some starts go ahead. I'm busy doing other things this night.

You are right, it's not quite as bad as I thought. Grasslands are just annoying in RandR despo, and that is our most important time. Just working one mountain takes all our surplus food, so we would be on the produce or grow plan.

Well it comes to Cheifdom there is only one thing to do. Rush to Dynasticism and revolt!

Well, even in Dyna, we can't improve the grass for another age. I am curious about Babs however, so let's give it a go. Want we to take it?

I'll upload save for you ;)

Btw, you are aware the MapFinder utility works with RaR (or any other scenario)? Cannot request for the specific bonus resources, but 1 Floodplain+1 Hill + 1 River + 1 Coast will work.

Want to give that a try?

Well, you can, but I cant upload anything, my router went crazy.

I couldn't get Map Finder to work properly, but here's a start I played as Russia, it is slightly food-poor, but shield rich. It does depend a little more than I'd like on irrigation.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Zav1-3000BC.JPG

If you'd like to play the site, I have a turn log to post.

I played the Bab start - we are alone on an island with one other civ. The lack of a hill for the starting city serious'y retards early development.

I would also recommend panagea with expansionist or archi with sea to get early contacts.

Another interesting option is the Iroquois. No cheap buildings, but check out the UU! Also as AGR and EXP can see all food boni at the beginning of the game, so city can be placed optimally. Rangers for hut-popping (essential early techs and tribes so 25K city doesn't need to build any).

I've got a very interesting Diety game going with them. Timed Oracle for turn after Writing and got Caste and Urban via pointy stick. Oracel chose Dyna and Philo, then free Philo gave me triple monopoly. Capital is on hill with cow and wheat. Got my second and third cities via huts.

I'd continue the russia start. We got 2 lux, iron, and not bad lands.

My vote is just to agree on something and start the game.

We seem to be getting stuck on analysis paralysis.

Comparing LK threads to some others on initial, and continuing, level of discussion, I suspect the lack thereof could account for some measure of the recent struggles.

Compare T_McC in the Romeo3 thread, for instance. For a 25K game, the turns before 1000BC are the most important ones (as LK91 learned), we'd better make sure to get them right. If I post a turnlong, I will consider the game started, and want to make sure we understand what we've got.

Moscow will max pop at 5 until Dyna (quite a ways to go on that, I've played 20 turns).
This also means it will grow painfully slowly even at 4 (10 turns w/granary). My plan is to use Moscow for units (it has the only barracks) and the odd clan, and to build the 25K city in range of the Elephants and Coffee (using the Camel as necessary). We can join our native worker and another that we can skim from Moscow to make that city instantly productive. That city will pull 8 extra food under Dyna, so can get huge and productive.

Once I get OK's from everyone on this plan (or a better one), we can start (I'll post the turnlog). Else we need to try another.

Comparing LK threads to some others on initial, and continuing, level of discussion, I suspect the lack thereof could account for some measure of the recent struggles.
A lot of the problems are more to due the insane games being played. Even playing RaR is an unknown for a lot of the crew.


Else we need to try another.
I vote for another. That new city will lack river squares. A 25K city should be river strong to take advantage of all science buildings in it. That would be a horrid city, and it will have some corruption. I vote reroll...

Horrid?

Whatever. I'm talking about one tile NE of the Camel. It will have plenty of river, the incense, elephant, and camel will all provide extra gold, and anyway, the main income source will be the obscene tourism it can generate. In Dyna, it can make 20 base shields without irrigation! this inclues mining, of course, but if we trigger our GA ASAP after revolt, we should be able to score nearly all the AA wonders.

See Romeo3 for a game like this done right.

Whatever. I'm talking about one tile NE of the Camel.
That answers the confusion from when I looked. I never even thought of totally choking the capitol to get the 25K city. I thought you meant the tile North of the one you proposed.

Would we want to eventually move the capitol? That 25K city would be very hard pressed for large size while competing with the capitol so heavily. That would very much effect my opinion on this start.

The Russian start looks great, no question. But considering you can see several resources not visible from the start, that feels a bit like cheating, if you ask me.
Incense is extremely important for 25k, btw. Makes the Arabs the very best choice, or Tibet, if you happen to get a bonus that is always visible. Russia is good, but mostly for the SGLs.

The reason we can see the resources is that we chose an expansionist civ (this game is only 20 turns old) with the benefits it offers (early contacts, techs from huts, seeing resources), at the expense of other trait benefits. This is not cheating. I also took valuable time to build some units in Moscow to avoid the early AI sneak instead of doing a farmer's/ranger gambit and restarting when it doesn't work.

A big plus to having the 25K city not be the capitol is the ability to build FP, SP, and WP there, the garden culture gives a huge boost.

Moscow will not be choked for quite a while. It can work the Pig and go on a 15 turn growth cycle between 2 and 4, timing clans for when it hits 4. Then in Dyna, the extra food from the pig will allow it to work a hill during the cycle and make significant shields (being on a hill, it can already make the required 4 at 2 pop). The nice thing about this is that it allows us to make vet units while building culture in the 25K city. If the capital is the 25K city, you can't do that.

>That 25K city would be very hard pressed for large size while competing with the capitol >so heavily. That would very much effect my opinion on this start.

The 25K city takes the camel (Moscow could share it on growth turns). With that food, it has plenty of tiles to work (the coffee mountain, 2xriver hills, 2xbonus grass, 2xplains) I would recoemmend getting our GA soon after Dyna, and working all shield bearing tiles. The city only needs about 7 pop to be a monster.

The Russian start looks great, no question. But considering you can see several resources not visible from the start, that feels a bit like cheating, if you ask me.

I really don't feel like we are cheating. In standard 3C3 the second city is often picked for best resources.


A big plus to having the 25K city not be the capitol is the ability to build FP, SP, and WP there; the garden culture gives a huge boost.

The garden culture buildings are very cheap shields for the amount of culture they give. Now we have to make sure the empire is big enough to build them.


Now that I understand the game plan go for this start. I never build 2 cities that close, and I didn't realize what you were up to.

Here's the turn log.

4000BC: Move 1 NW to get more hills, work Camel in starting nine. Very shield heavy spot with two food bonuses. Now this is a start! Already 4spt. Building Ranger in 3. Researching Masonry in 16.

3850BC: Ranger->Ranger First ranger finds double cereal site in near north.

3800BC: Hut=maps.

3750BC: Inca to SE, trade our two techs +1gpt and 10 gold for Masonry and Warfare. Change production to TG in 3.Now researching Pottery in 11.

3700BC: Meet American scout in north - he has no tech to trade.

3650BC: Meet Sioux to NE. He has Cultivation, but won't trade for both our techs.

3600BC: Hun tribe teaches us Boat Building. Trade it to Crazy Horse for Cultivation +14 gold. Trade that and Boat to Abe for Scrape and 35 gold. Sell it to Inca for all his gold (after gifting 25 to improve relations). Same with Crazy Horse. We have two sources of iron and an elephant near Moscow, but not in city limits (if I'd stayed at the starting location, would have had iron!

3550BC: Meet Iroquios to far east. He lacks Masonry, up nothing. Also find horse well to east. Borders expand, now working Pigs.

3450BC: Americans have horses, fairly close by to the north.

3300BC: Meet Aztecs to far west. Trade Cultivation and Alpha for Rit and all his gold.
Trade Abe Potery for Sailing and 60 gold. Writing in 16. Worker Housing->Ranger in 2.

3250BC: Meet England. They are down many techs. Sell them cultivation after gifting gold. Buy two Iroquois workers. We have incense in our borders.

3200BC: Ranger->Archer.

3100BC: Buy Aztec worker. Horses about six tiles south of capital. Archer->Granary in 6 (will need to slow growth one turn to keep granary full)

3050BC: Alemenni tribe teaches us weaving, and we have silks! Silk road, here we come! We trade it to Abe for the wheel, and coffee shows up on nearby mountains - this is very valuable, as it let's mountains give food.

3000BC: Caste System shows up - we can get it in 7 with writing.

Setting up another city for 25K will be tight. Without working the Camel, Moscow can only hold three pop. We may already be too late for this strategy. The overall strategy is to try to time an Oracle build to get Dyna and Philosophy. It may already be too late for that (to get Dyna, not the Oracle.) Doc, some advice there?

If you choose the second city route, here is a plan.

Adjust Moscow to finish granary one turn before growth. Skim a worker off to keep granary full at 3 pop, growing in 5. Build clan timed to growth to 4.

Found city and immediately join our two native workers. Get max shields with those three pop. Shrine is required for Oracle, Forge (and Worker Housing?) should be built before starting it.

The other question, research Myst or let the AI go down that tree?

I believe Oracle and MoM will trigger our GA. Hopefully after we are a Monarchy.

It's a plan, not sure if it's the best one.

The overall strategy is to try to time an Oracle build to get Dyna and Philosophy
I've always researched Dyna before I could completey the Oracle. usually even Philo (though I could time it sometimes as well). I usually use Big Picture to get BW and Construction before the Oracle gives the 2 techs; if you're really lucky, you can get CoL as well.
I usually take Currency (ignored by the AI and expensive), and Demo (since I want it) or Drama (if I cannot get hold of CoL). Classical Education from Philo.

Found city and immediately join our two native workers. Get max shields with those three pop. Shrine is required for Oracle, Forge (and Worker Housing?) should be built before starting it.
Since we can't use the great food and shield camel, how well can we grow the other city? I am not a RaR expert, but if I count right it will max out around size 4. That seems small for a 25K city until irrigation.

The plan is to have the 25K city use the Camel. This makes things tight for Moscow until Dyna, and will necessitate moving it at some point in all likelihood (this may or may not be a pain). I propose using it primarily for units (and production boosters, of course) after a couple more cities are established in more fertile locations.

You could also just use Moscow for the 25K city, it has sufficient shields. But until irrigation, it won't get very big. It would absolutely kick during our GA, however. If we are behind on tech, we can use Oracle to catch up (including Dyna, if necessary. If ahead, would be a good idea to snag Bronze and Construction (using Philo for free, if available) to allow us to start mining. So far, we are a little behind, but if we get writing at monoply, we will be in good shape. We surely have the most contacts.

I hope no one has a problem with trading old techs for workers - I have no mercy for MIL or AGR AI's in the early game.

I hope no one has a problem with trading old techs for workers - I have no mercy for MIL or AGR AI's in the early game.
I do it all the time. In fact, you will see it in some of my recent SG logs.

With this speed they will release civ4 before we get started :crazyeye:

Bezhukov, please post your turn log so we can get this on.

It's been up for a while. :lol:

See page 2.

Roster
Bezhukov -> just played
LKendter -> up
open
Zavior -> on deck

Another Oracle plan that is appealing is to research/trade for dyna and have the Oracle finish soon after, taking CoL and Philo, and then Demo with the free Philo tech. This allows us to get to Demo with only one anarchy period.

However, there is another consideration: The only AA wonder that will trigger an expansionist GA (according to the pedia) is Stonehenge. MoM among others will take care of the science part. Think we can get both Oracle and Stonehenge in time?
Is the pedia wrong on this?

Got it........

@Bezhukov - I am still not sure if the Camels go to the new city, or stay with Moscow. I don't see how the 25K city can get any decent shields / growth without the camel. However, I don't how Moscow can pop more settlers without the camel.

Can you post a dot map of the new city and the tiles you see it working. I am NOT playing until I see this. I need the visual to make sure I don't screw up.

The 25K city uses the Camel. You can place it on the hill between the Elephant and the Camel - red square (advantages: 2 shields in city square, immediate use of Elephant, disadvantage: misses iron and coffee, which would both enhance long-term productivity), on the grassland one tile NE of the Camel - blue square (this gets the Coffee and Incense, but you miss out on the "city on a hill" bonus, and also miss the iron), or you can place it on the grassland NNE of Moscow - green square - to get the Phant, the Coffee, and the Iron (this would be best long term, and you could still work the Camel right away).

The decision should be made purely to optimize the 25K city, but also with the need for speed in mind. I'll leave this decision in your quite capable hands. Each location has it's merits.

All Moscow needs is the pig and two plains. Under our current government we have two options:

1. At one pop (with a granary) it will grow in 5 turns making 15 total shields. At two it will grow in ten turns making 50 shields. So we build 30 shields clans (cost two pop) timed to coincide with growth to three, giving us 35 shields each cycle to play with.

2. With a forge, we can get 70 shields during growth from two to three. This is enough to get a hardy clan (only costs one pop) on a ten-turn growth cycle and still have some shields for other uses.

Obviously, neither of these options is ideal, but once dyna comes in, we'll have more flexibility. Another alternative is to produce only two clans from Moscow and allow more fertile sites to produce further clans, while Moscow produces veteran units to secure our empire.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Zav1-dotmap.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Zav1-Dotmap.JPG

Just to confuse you some more, a city on the hill in the middle of that mountain range Getting wheat, iron, and two coffee mountains) would be an absolute monster long term, with a fair chance of eventually having an Iron Works to boot. It may be difficult to get it up and going soon enough, however.

Depending on corruption, the two Wheat and Elephant (using Hardy Clan to settle on Marsh) site could make a good place for a clan-building city.

Blue will allow for the Holy City, a huge small wonder for 25k. Iron Works isn't that important, there always is the Steel Foundry.

>Iron Works isn't that important, there always is the Steel Foundry.

Yes, but why settle for just one, when you can have both? With a Crystal Palace on top?

:drool:

2670 AD
The Sioux and Iroquois are already fighting. :D

We have writing at monopoly.
I ship writing to America for Caste System (heading to better government) and $40.
I ship writing to the Iroquois for Mysticism and $70.
I ship writing and $10 to the Inca for Slavery.
I start research on Urbanization to get us one step closer to Dynasticism.


2630 AD
I ship Caste System to England for Urbanization. I start research on Dynasticism.


2550 AD
It is pricey, but I ship the Sioux Urbanization and Writing for a Iroquois worker and $3.


2430 AD
St. Petersburg is formed to be the 25K city. I join our natural worker to the city. We hit the magically 4 shields with worker housing due in 8 turns.


2270 AD
Writing goes to the Aztecs for Fermentation.


2230 AD
(IT) America gets $29 as we are not ready for war.
Dynasticism comes in and we revolt. I start research on Bronze Worker. Worker camps are critical to get more shields for the 20K city.


2190 AD
We only suffer one turn of anarchy. :dance:


2670 AD
The Inca and Iroquois are also fighting. :D


2150 AD
The newly build worker joins St. Petersburg.



==========================

Summary:
In case you are wondering why the current site, read the quote below.

Blue will allow for the Holy City, a huge small wonder for 25k.

Working housing completes in 2 in St. Petersburg. It then needs a forge, slave market, and shrine (expanded borders give us the food heavy elephant and a bonus grassland). After that we can start planning the heavy culture. We have already used 40 turns and have zero culture toward the win.


Signed up:

Bezhukov (on deck)
LKendter
open slot
Zavior (currently playing)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ZAV1-2150BC.zip

Pre-turn, all looks good, no mm available. Press enter.

IBT: Iros demand 27 gold.

(1)2110BC:
Iros have bronze, no trade available. Do some mm with 25k city.

IBT: Abe establishes embassy with us.

(2)2070BC:
----

IBT: ----

(3)2030BC:
----

IBT: ----

(4)1990BC:
----

IBT: ----

(5)1950BC: ----

IBT: Bronze comes in.

(6)1870BC: Pioneer ready. Heading to coast(get silks connected also)
Trade aztec worker for dyna. Iros know construction, we cant afford it yet. Slave market in 1.

IBT: Nothing

(7)1830BC: Slave market comes in, we pull 13 spt Start shrine.

IBT: Nothing

(8)1790BC: Nothing. Shrine in 3. Trade 110g for construction. Trade constuction + 70g for maths, aristocracy. We are at tech parity with everyone now. Start at mythology.

(9)1750BC: Start mining the coffee mountain.

IBT: Nothing

(10)1725BC: Found minsk, start on warrior(can be vetoed)

Next player, after shrine completes, switch our 25k city back to mountain.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/civ1.JPG

>We are at tech parity with everyone now. Start at mythology.

Good work people. Now for something completely different - let's skip Oracle. To max the culture we need shields yesterday. What better way to get them than a GA? The only way to get a GA is to build Stonehenge now (it's the only expansionist wonder until Copernicus). Can we check to see if that is possible? There are several sci wonders available after we get the Henge - I'd recommend MoM.

Let's send the pioneer to get the Gold in the NW, which will also bring the phants into our borders quicker. We can join a worker to St. Pete at that point, if necessary.

From my past expirience, AIs almost everytime skip Stonehenge, so I'd assume its safe to go for oracle and then stonehenge. But, will early GA allow us to build
enough to culture to be worth it? We only have 3 cities now. By the time of GA we would probably have 5, 7 at most.

Yes, settling near to gold mountain would help us greatly. St. Petersburg is growing very slowly, so that would certainly help us.

Only one city really matters, and in GA it will build 5 turn wonders. See Romeo3 for an example of this getting silly. We might also be able to grab Oracle quickly after getting Henge and MoM. What does F7 say people are building?

Does St. Pete have its forge yet?

We may need to build MoM first to keep it happy, since we have the Slave Market.

Oh, got it.

Roster
Bezhukov -> up
LKendter -> on deck
open
Zavior -> Just played

Hmm, I haven't checked F7, but I foresee AI's building wonders in their pop1 tundra towns ;)

You're up, you can check it.

Only one city really matters, and in GA it will build 5 turn wonders.
That is the whole key. Early culture would double quickly, give us tourism, etc.

I agree to get that expansionist wonder built now. We have left Cheifdom, and can't have our GA early enough.

Preflight: MM St. Pete to grow in 4, still making Shrine in 1. F7 shows 4 Hanging Garden builds, all in capitals – not good. Plenty of cascades coming. Now that we’re in Monarchy, settlers cost 3 pop, so change Moscow build to Slave Market in 1. My mistake this game was building the worker housing in Moscow before the first settler. Live and learn. Didn’t think of using a different 25K city until later.

1700BC: St. Pete: Shrine->Stonehenge (in 23, ugh), Moscow: Slave->Warrior in 2, then Pioneer timed with growth. A note: we could mine three plains in the time it takes to mine that mountain. I understand why Minsk went there, but might have been better to grab a more fertile spot so we could get some more settlers built faster – also grabbing gold and getting the Elephant working. The lux is nice, though!

IBT: Trade and Civil are out there – we have Myth in 2 to trade, hopefully.

1650BC: Mine completes, Henge in 16. Workers mine plains next door – Henge in 14. Moscow: Warrior-> Pioneer.

1625: We get a monopoly on Myth – hmmm, why didn’t we go for Philo (free tech)?, never to late to try, I guess. Philosophy in 10. Minsk: Warrior->Slave Market. Myth and 25 gold gets us Civil from Abe We gift Inca 25 gold to improve relations, then get that gold back, along with trade for Civil. Myth gets us all of 80 gold from Hiawatha.

1600BC: We meet the Japanese to the far west. They are down a bunch of techs, although they have six cities.

1575BC: America gets Naval Warfare and it’s traded around.

1550BC: Iroquios get Code of Laws and its traded around. Moscow:Pioneer->worker (to grow St. Pete)

1525BC: zzz

1500BC: zzz

1475BC: St. Pete finally gets Elephant in borders.

1450BC: Smolensk founded to get dyes, iron, and gold. I know it’s close to Chicago (America founded the same turn, I was tired of moving that settler around, if we had moved him back, another AI might have taken the spot.) It’s already making 4spt working the iron. So should have more culture than Chicago. We can make 3 defense units, and the only offense America could bring is archers at this point. Moscow will be sufficiently developed soon to let us get our defenses up.

1400BC: Minsk: Slave->Shrine (making 5spt - will grow once culture is built, as this will bring in two bonus tiles). We get Philo first (try to trade for CofL using big picture, we get CofL and Poly for Philo from America, but Classical Ed is selected as free tech before I can switch to Democracy. No sweat, we won't be revolting until after GA anyway).

Important: there are trades left to be made. We are up two techs now on the Iroquois, and they have a ton of money. I was extorted a couple times on my turns, so might as well get what we can from techs while we can. There will be plenty of techs to buy soon.

Stonehenge completes in 3. Due to the cascade risk out there, let's start on MoM right away to trigger the GA. Can build the Water Mill at that point. In general, I like to go for Great Wonders before small, as the window of opportunity is smaller.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Zav1-1400BC.JPG

In general, I like to go for Great Wonders before small, as the window of opportunity is smaller.
I agree 100%. It can even be nice to keep a pricey small wonder around as a nice prebuild.

Signed up:

Bezhukov
LKendter (currently playing)
open slot
Zavior (on deck)

If anyone wants to join, be free to say so.

I'd would advise that we go Poetry, Drama, Lit, as the AI will neglect this path, and given the two strong AI (America and Iroquois), GL should pay some nice dividends. Especially since we're scientific, and so get Dark Ages free.

:)

This should give us a good shot at Angkor Wat. Given that Silk Road is also out there, and Shangri La should also be available, not so sure about going for Oracle. It's nice culture, but the effect is negligible at this point if we build Great Library. Given the library's culture, I don't see any other choice.

The reason Minsk and the gold city are not growing is that they are waiting for Stonehenge to give them granaries. Figured it was better to max shields, then get the best bang for our buck.

Moscow will make 30 spt with forge and water mill in GA - this is one spear (1/3) per turn or one Elephant per two turns. We should be able to build enough of an army to expand via pointy stick, which works better during a GA than building settlers, if you can pull it off.

I'm sure some AI's will declare on one another, and we can poach at that point - Chicago of course being the ideal target. This leaves Minsk to develop some science after production boosters. Even with GL, we'll need science again real soon.

St. Pete can work high shields and be fed pop by workers from the gold city (working the surrounding bg's) once it gets its shrine. No rush to research/trade for Democracy - we'll get it from the GL and don't need to revolt until we make sure to get all the important wonders.

1400 BC
I am not sure how I got the game at turn 64. I will play 16 to put it back on track. If it is an odd number next turn, I will cut it short.

At 24 useable shields St. Petersburg looks great for production. The problem is we still don't have a good city for settlers and are really losing out in the land grab.

Philosophy goes to England for Naval Warfare and $12.
I ship Polytheism to The Sioux for Seafaring and $5.
I sell Classical Education to the Iroquois for $325.
I sell Classical Education to America for $145 (full price).

I debated switching research to Democracy because of how powerful a cash rush government is in human hands. However, you KNOW that AI will beeline to a government tech. I have to hope we will have some good trading material.


1350 BC
Philosophy and $15 go to the Inca for Riding.

(IT)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-606.jpg


1325 BC
(IT) England completes Hanging Gardens in the cascade.


1275 BC
(IT) America completes the Sphinx.


1250 BC
(IT) The Sioux start MoM.
The Incas are building Silks Road.
A very ugly turn of wonder notices. Silks road is a killer for extra revenue.


1225 BC
America beat us to the cereal site. We finish the expansion phase with 4 lousy cities.


1200 BC
There is no reason to hold Poetry.
I ship Poetry to America for Iron Working and $37.
I ship Poetry and $135 to England for Democracy. With MoM due in 3 I don't revolt.
I ship Poetry and $105 to the Iroquois for Monotheism.
I sell Monotheism to England for $125.
I sell Poetry to the Sioux for $65.
(IT) America gets a $44 "refund" from his recent trade.


1150 BC
I ship the Aztecs Code of Laws for a worker and $2.
(IT)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-607.jpg

The Russian Golden Age has begun. :dance:

The next wonder will be Silk Road. We actually have competition for it. Bonus commerce in every square of St. Petersburg is really nice.


1125 BC
(IT) The Sioux complete the Great Wall.
The Aztecs complete Slave Trade.


1050 BC
I ship Classic Education to the Inca for Elephant Training.


1025 BC
I ship Drama to the Sioux for Currency and $35.
I ship Drama and $65 to the Iroquois for Military Training.
As expected our free tech is Dark Ages.

I swap Moscow to high food to get to size four. That will allow Elephant Riders every other turn.




==========================

Summary:
I wouldn't invest a lot of time in improving Moscow beyond production boosters. It MUST be abandoned later in the game as it will choke our 25K city. For now I am using it to improve our military.

IMO we will have to go to war to win this game. 4 cities just won't be enough to win.

Signed up:

Bezhukov (on deck)
LKendter
open slot
Zavior (currently playing)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ZAV1-1000BC.zip

"I wouldn't invest a lot of time in improving Moscow beyond production boosters. It MUST be abandoned later in the game as it will choke our 25K city. For now I am using it to improve our military.

IMO we will have to go to war to win this game."

That was the plan all along. :)

Please, please, please do not revolt during the GA. There is no pressing reason to do so before building Shakes (then we can let St. Pete grow during anarchy without sacrificing production). We benefit from a languid tech pace, and getting the library - as we're sure to do, amkes sure we won't fall seriously behind. We won't need to cash rush buildings (well, except Water Mill, Town Clock, and Guild Hall) until we've built all available wonders+ Holy City+The Academy. That'll be a while.

In choosing war, the MIL civs might be better to avoid, also consider who's having their GA (likely Inca and Sioux soon, Iroquois already, and America/England not for a long while).

IBT: Inca demand democracy. I suggest we hit incans first.

975BC
Switch tiles between Moscow and St. Petersburg. Elephant now 1 turn faster.

IBT: Nothing

950BC
Nothing

IBT: Nothing

925BC
Moscow is 2 turn Elephant factory :)

IBT: Nothing

900BC
We complete Silk road, start on oracle.

IBT: Nothing

875BC
We now have gold as strategic resource.

IBT: Nothing

850BC
Nothing

IBT: Nothing

825BC
Nothing

IBT: Japanese kick our scout out.

800BC
Smolensk: Barracks -> Elephant

IBT: Nothing

775BC
Nothing

IBT: Iros demand 42g

750BC
Oracle finished, I took Sci method and clockworks.
St. Petersburg -> Lib

Quiet set of turns.

Sigh. The Oracle's effect was wasted, as we would get those two when the GL completes. We will not be able to maintain tech dominance in this era with our size and the inevitable extortion. We won't fall behind with GL and balanced AI, so why the Oracle?

Oh well.

Hope this doesn't sound like second guessing. We just need a plan that makes sense for this to work. I'll wait a day to see if we get any joiners.

Its still cultural 25k, and more culture before 0AD is always good. I agree that the effect is wasted but there tech weren't know by anyone.

I'll wait a day to see if we get any joiners.
I really doubt we are getting another player. It has been very hard to get another player. I was going to try the SG registry, but I see Zavior beat me to it.



Bezhukov (currently playing)
LKendter (on deck)
open slot?
Zavior

At least it will give us some decent tourism - no biggie. Got the game, will play tonight. Will try for GL, Pyramids, Shangri La, and Angkor Wat, with production boosters at appropriate multiples of shields. Will push for Shakes tech to get it in time for doubling.

The cry for battle shall soon be heeded.

Pre-flight: Well, since we’ve got the cash and can’t cash rush, I establish some embassies to see who’s at war with whom and check on the wonder competition. Bad news on the former, all at peace, and good on the latter. Switch Smolensk to a Water Mill, growing in one (he’s got bg’s to work that he wasn’t working – 4 GA boosted tiles are way better than 2 – same with Minsk – adjust to growing in one.

Ship Monte Classical Ed for Sugar, the 25 gold I just gave him, and RoP – he’s now gracious. Same sort of deal with Japan for Philo, need to help the laggards avoid getting eaten. Sell Hiawatha Sci Method for 660 gold and RoP (he too far away to war with, better get on his good side. To Abe for 320.)

730BC: Moscow: Rider->Rider, St. Pete: Library->Water Mill in 2 (slightly starving – need to get over 50spt), really wish our workers weren’t all spread out and tied up on hills and mountains during a GA when plains are faster to improve and grow cities faster when worked.

710BC: zzz

690BC: St. Pete: Water->Wind (in two, not starving, if we can get to 60spt, GL in 6), Moscow: Rider-Spear.

670BC: Minsk: Water->Wind (he’s been working the fish to grow. Finally a worker finsihes a mine on a tile we can’t work – this kind of stuff makes the difference. Buy two workers from Iroquois for 240 gold as much to cripple him as to help us. Warrior Code->Theology in 4

650BC: St. Pete: Wind->GL (in 6, making 60spt exactly), Moscow still making Riders. May have to declare war ourselves, which I would rather not do. Hope to get some cats built.

630BC:zzz

610BC: Smolensk: Water->Monument (so we can build Pyramids), Smolensk will hit 5 pop in 3 turns, then work the iron hill, which should allow 1 turn cats.

590BC: Minsk: Wind->Academy (in 1!) Theology->Vassalage in 3, workers now chopping forest between Smolensk and St. Pete (c’mon bg!)

570BC: Minsk: Academy->Monument, Moscow->Rider->Monument (in 1, slightly starving)

550BC: RoP and some cash from Sioux for WC – he’ll be having a GA soon, we don’t want war that way. Smolensk: Mill->one turn cats

530BC: GL comes in->Angkor Wat in 6 (Pyramids are available in 5, less culture), Japan ships us three luxes for iron and some old techs.

510BC: Bunch of junk techs come in, we will get Feud next turn, turn down research. Minsk:Library->Town Clock, Smolensk: Cat->Cat, Moscow:Phant, I’ll leave the warring to LK – phants currently roading mountain pass to Chicago. All cities now in WLTK day, allowing Smolensk to grow again.

490BC: Iros get Sun Tzu. Worker Housing obsolescence fouls up our math – crop rotation in 4.

470BC: CR falls to 2 turns, that can only mean one thing, yep, we’ll get it free next turn.

450BC: Forest finally clears – cool, another bg for St. Pete. GA comes to an end as I pass off the game. American knights seen on the move east. Let’s wait to see what they're up to (notice small stack on our territory to NE, looks like they are headed toward the Sioux, which would trigger Sioux GA and make America ripe for picking.)

WE CAN NOW IRRIGATE!

[party]

Now that we can irrigate, let’s get St. Pete to 15 ASAP – Smolensk and Moscow can build workers for joining.

Note: Minsk does not need a port for growth – now that GA is over, would be a good time to let it grow out and make some commerce. Seattle just got a culture expansion, small bummer, but phants have roaded some approaches for cats.

When St. Pete gets to 70 spt, it can build a one turn temple, which is required for the 4 culture Holy City. Can we agree that research goal is Copernicus, then Shakes?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Zav1-450BC.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/AztecHQ.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/EnglishHQ.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/IncaHQ.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/IroHQ.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/SiouxHQ.JPG

We should get Monasticism at some point, Shangri La is also worth building. I forgot to sell the Worker Housings - they are now obsolete.

When St. Pete gets to 70 spt, it can build a one turn temple, which is required for the 4 culture Holy City. Can we agree that research goal is Copernicus, then Shakes?
Shakes is a must as it one of the only high culture wonders in the game.


Bezhukov
LKendter (currently playing)
open slot (probably staying that way)
Zavior (on deck)

430 BC
I work on completing the free upgrades from worker to peasant. We may as well get the productivity boast.

I ship the Aztecs Mounted Archery for worker (upgraded to peasant) and $11.
(IT) We get Alchemy for free from the GL.


410 BC
I buy a worker (upgraded to peasant) for $120 from America.
We can trade for some tech, but with the GL why bother?
(IT) The Iroquois declare war on America.
We get Monasticism and Heraldry for free from the GL.

America completes the Voyage of Discovery.


390 BC
I merge a peasant into St. Petersburg to speed up growth.
(IT) The wonder parade continues:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-610.jpg

We need to continue to boast production so a Town Clock is ordered.
We get Castle Building and Guilds for free from the GL.


350 BC
I give Lateen Sail and Literature to the Aztecs to keep the sugar supply coming our way. They also give us a whopping $2.


330 BC
(IT) We get Siege Warfare for free from the GL.
It is time to get back to wonders and the


310 BC
Another peasant is joined to St. Petersburg to bring it to size 11.
(IT) We get Chivalry for free from the GL.


290 BC
(IT) We get Usury for free from the GL. I can't believe a tech a turn already.


270 BC
I give Japan Military Training and $60 and snag another worker.

St. Petersburg goes to size 14 from 2 more worker merges. I configure for max growth without losing a turn on the Pyramids for citizen #15.


250 BC
It seems so weird to have a monopoly tech with the GL in play. Welcome to RaR rate caps.
I sell Scholasticism to the Iroquois for $725. I sell it to the Sioux for $320.

It is time for the hammer. :hammer:
I declare war on America.


230 BC
Seattle is razed for $0.
(IT) We get Banking for free from the GL.


210 BC
Odessa is formed on the remains of Seattle. We have another long-term productive city with 2 cereals a several hills and mountains.
(IT) The wonders of St. Pete continue:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-611.jpg

The next target is a guildhall to further increase production. The later wonders are very shield expensive.


170 BC
(IT) The GL is dead as Education arrives.


150 BC
(IT) St. Pete is back on a culture run and 82 shields a turn. I build a temple next to have holy city as a fallback.


130 BC
Chicago is captured for $1. I can't gain more from America. Peace will wait just until the resistance ends at Chicago.

Iron, Elephants and $2/turn keeps the 3 luxuries coming in from Japan.
(IT) Shangri La is off this list of possible wonders as the English build it.
I go for Knights Templar as the worst case is it becomes the Holy City.


90 BC
I notice that the Iroquois now own San Francisco.


70 BC
I sign peace with America. I get Gunpowder and Astronomy for $75 in the deal.


==========================

Summary:
War results are:
Units killed: 2 knights, 6 pikeman, 1 cavalier, 1 imperial guard and 5 horse archers.
Units gained: 4 slaves and 3 workers.
Units lost: 3 pikeman, 1 longbow and 4 elephants.

We still have quite a few non-wonder buildings to sneak in if we get a wonder building gap. I would stick with wonders this early in the game for the obscene tourism bonus we will get later in the game.

We have a new, decent city to build. With the free shrine and monument and our high culture rating the flip risk should be almost zero.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-612.jpg

Our empire is still *TO SMALL*. We need the right to build the FP. Remember that gives us 2 more culture buildings for St. Petersburg. We need to start a war with England to at the minimum raze and replacing Hastings. We also want those horses.

If you are wonder why some war camels - they are a fast defense 3 unit.
My parting gift is another wonder - Knights Templar due in 1. 2 more culture points and more quick tourism.

Signed up:

Bezhukov (on deck)
LKendter
Open slot (probably staying that way)
Zavior (currently playing)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ZAV1-50BC.zip

Great turn set, LK!

:goodjob:

"the flip risk should be almost zero."

One thing I never thought I'd hear you say.

;)

Must have something to do with getting two free culture buildings in each new city. Forget 25K, we're going 50K!

What are the merits of trimming the English over the Inca? How to avert a runaway Hiawatha?

Looking at the map, San Fran looks red, not purple, hence Sioux, not Iro. this would make sense, as the Sioux should currently be in their GA, and is good news, as they could help hold off Hiawatha.

"the flip risk should be almost zero."

One thing I never thought I'd hear you say.

Must have something to do with getting two free culture buildings in each new city.
Well the 2 culture buildings help. 3 more CPT for every new city should lock us as the permanent culture leader soon.


What are the merits of trimming the English over the Inca?
How about the English FIRST? Raze and replace Hastings would give us horse and more powerful units for the next war.


How to avert a runaway Hiawatha?
The starting point is better units. Read the English war comments.


Looking at the map, San Fran looks red, not purple, hence Sioux, not Iro. this would make sense, as the Sioux should currently be in their GA, and is good news, as they could help hold off Hiawatha.
I always enable colorblind help. The nation listed is the Iroquois.

I will add one additional comment. I would avoid the 1000 shield cost wonders like Leo that only give 2 culture points for now. We can build Holy City (4), Heroic Epic (2), Theater (2), Basilica (1), and Academy (1) allowing The Academy (2). This is the time of the game to get anything that can double before 750BC. All those buildings won't take much more time the Leos.

If we get a leader rush something expensive in St. Pete. The armies aren't great this early.

Yes, Leo's is a sucker's game. I'm beginning to suspect that all the +2 tech wonders are. When you've got, what, 200 techs? two free doesn't buy you as much.

The big goal is to get Shakes by 750AD. Also Uni and Cathedral would be nice (2 culture each). Squeezing Forbidden and Summer Gardens in there would be icing on the cake.

I was kinda hoping England would help us balance the coming Japanese juggernaut (Kensai), since the Americans will be weakened and the Aztecs didn't get the early GA boost that they potentially can. If we don't eat the Inca soon, Hiawatha will. Don't the Inca have horses down there too? We could grab them with a combat settler if needed.

Agree to wait for Shakes to revolt?

If you guys still have an open slot I am interested. My style is more of a warmonger in RaR, but you have LK and Bez, two of the best builders in RaR. I am phasing almost all of my Civ to RaR, and can pick up another game as some are ending. Just realize that my work/play schedule is kinda odd, and I may need the full time allowed, or I can whip out a set almost instantaneously.
I would create a small war on the English, then go after the MesoAmericans.

I'd be glad to have any warmonger to help us get some more room, even more glad to have Romeo. Don't know about my being one of the finest builders, however. One of the ONLY builders, perhaps...

:)

My style is more of a warmonger in RaR, but you have LK and Bez, two of the best builders in RaR.
:hmm: Not sure how I earned best builder already. The big thing I have learned is to check for hidden goodies. LK88 certainly appreciated finding the Supreme Court and less corruption. The killer with RaR is to review all building and understand them all. That is going to take a long time...

Signed up:

Bezhukov
LKendter
Romeothemonk (currently playing)
Zavior (on deck)

Welcome, romeo.

IHT: After surveying the situation, I declare immeadiatly on the English, and swap smolenks to pioneer. Capture some slaves.
IBT: No real counters
Turn 1: St Pete, KT to academy, Sioux start copes, will get to copes next turn. Smolensk pioneer to town clock. Elite ER kills reg TG on mountain gets slave. (1-0) Vet wwar camel kills reg warrior, promotes (2-0).
IBT: English counter is a reg warrior moving by our SoD.
Turn 2: Academy in, switch to Copes in 8. Minsk War Camel to ER. Elite WC kills warrior, ER kills coffee colony. (3-0).
IBT: English cavalier redlines killing our elite WC. (3-1)
Turn 3: Vet WC kills Cavalier. Cats go 3 for 5 at hastings. ER kills vet pike gets slave. ER kills reg pike, gets slave. Lose ER. Teutonic knight kills pike, promotes. WC losses to Cavalier, promoting him. Longbow kills cavalier, we raze the city netting 6 total slaves. (8-3).
IBT: English cavalier, (How many do they have?) Kills teutonic kingth and recaptures our new slaves, and our pults.
Turn 4: Political philo comes in. Net Matchlock, Architecture, and physics and 400 gold. (The gold was from the Iro). Build Tblisi on the ruins of Hastings. Vet ER kills reg warrior, and we recapture all our slaves and pults. (9-4) Vet WC kills cavalier (10-4).
IBT: America and England sign embargo against us.
Turn 5: Kill reg Warrior (11-4).
IBT: Boston turned purple.
Turn 6: Moving and healing.
IBT: Inca demand seige warfare, I say no, War breaks out.
Turn 7: march on Canterbury.
IBT: Inca move up some junk
Turn 8: Move more onto canterbury.
IBT: England moves units out of Canterbury.
Turn 9: Cats go 3 for 5. Lose Elite ER to 3 HP pike, Lose LB to 2 HP pike. Kill 1 hp pike with ER. Kill 1 HP pike with ER, get slave. Kill horse archer with Warcamel, raze city 3 slaves. Get Navigation and 27 gold for Peace with England. (14-6).
IBT: I forgot to trade our excess coffee, and the IRos extorted it.
Turn 10: We build copes, start University. Incas move 2 Intis and an Imp guard towards St. Pete. Teutonic knight Redlines Imperial guard but dies. ER retreats from Spear. ER kills Spear. (15-7).
IBT: I play 11 just to sort out the mess I left. Sorry, make me 9 turns next time or something. England and Iro DoW on America. Inca attack St. Petes, retreat 1, kill 1. (16-7).
Turn 11: Knight kills 3 hp spear. ER kills redlined Inti, gets slave, covered with pike. ER kills eagle Warrior, gets slave. ER kills eagle warrior. Pike kills sword. (21-7).
You can see from the pic below that the threat is over. The Inca appear to be fairly well gassed, and we can continue to pick them over at our leisure now. I would leave the ER's as ER's cause slaves are cool. Sorry for the playing 11, I just didnt want to hand off a military mess that I created.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Zav1..jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Zav1a..jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ZAV1-170AD.SAV

Way to beat down, Romeo. Eight cities - that's the magic number, isn't it? Clock ticks on Shakes, however. Let's get infra in Odessa and Tblisi (CH+forge at least) before mil or bazaars. We are scientific! We ought be able to throw up quick Academies and Libraries. Let's make sure we're getting all the sci we can out of Minsk, since our capital is sending everyone off to war instead of off to school.

What's with the raze and replace? Are we afraid of former English cities flipping? You know you can sac workers for instant culture expansion? Guess I'm a lover, not a razer.

When I started my turns, we needed 7 techs to get shakes. Now we need 3. I really didn't see how we could get there faster. We can swap the Uni in St Petes to Gutenbergs. (I would). We should also re MM St. Petes. I didn't remanagae after the Inca Attack, and they probably messed up our citizens. I think we can just make St. pete's almost all of our science, we just need to slow down the Tech Pace a little after Shakes. We can still build the following science buildings: Lab, School, school of Scribes, Wiseman, The Academy, monastary, University/gutenbergs. And these are just off the top of my noggin.
I would keep our next 3 best cities on Military, just so we can run over our neighbors, or at least trim them back significantly. Right now if the Sioux or Iro attack, about all we could do is bend over. I want to prevent something like that from happening, and mobile, high attack units will do that for us. I would stop building military when we have at least 1 attacker for every city we own, and 1 primo defender for every city with St. Petes getting 2 defenders and 2 attackers. Military caution/deterrrant never hurts in RaR, especially with the near constant demands. IIRC, there was a guesswork/study that the AI demands when it gets a new tech, so we can expect quite a few demands.

Sounds like a plan, except for the Gutenberg part. We need to get Forbidden and Summer Palaces and Gardens built before 750AD, in addition to Shakes, and Uni, Cathedral, and Holy City are all better culture than Gutes.

Once we get secure militarily, it doesn't hurt to get the cheap Wiseman, Academy, and Library up in our big cities. And new cities benefit from Slave Market, Forge, and CH, so they can build units or buildings more effectively.

Umm, Am I missing something here? The new cities start with a shrine, a monument and a granary, not slave market, forge and CH. I think we could build Chichen Itza, we just need some more temples. It is a ~300 shield 2 cpt great wonder.
We cannot at this time build any of the palaces, so we need to capture or raze and replace an incan city or 2.
If you really want mass culture ASAP, I would leave St. Pete's on Uni. If you want a 25k win with a really solid city for the later game, I would swap it. Although I think this is a moot point, because unless we get piled on in the next 20, we will have enough military to easily coast out. Because of this fact, I would swap to Gute's, just because we can see how decked out we can get 1 city.

"The new cities start with a shrine, a monument and a granary, not slave market, forge and CH."

Yes, that is why I'm suggesting we build the latter first in these cities. :)

The Big Chicken is already obsolete. ;)

I'd like to go for the earliest 25K win date we can get. Romeo3 is already more decked out than we'll be, but we still have a shot a decently early date if we can get the high culture doubled. Uni is good, since we're sci and it's cheap. Holy City (requires temple) makes 4 CPT and helps corruption, so would also be good as we wait for the extra cities.

Or will be with Juriprudence, I may be getting my games mixed up here. :blush:

Copernicus was a great grab for pure science. A 100% boast to science rate really helps. 3 CPT isn't bad either. Another tourism bonus will be nice.

To win a 25K game we need to average 46 culture points per turn. We are only at 170 AD and already have 34 a turn. A lot of these buildings still haven't doubled. The GA really let us crank out a lot of early culture. :D

Because of this fact, I would swap to Gute's, just because we can see how decked out we can get 1 city.
Do we want 11 turns for 2 culture points, or should we build holy city in 4 turns for 4 culture points. We could then squeeze in several other culture buildings.

Do we want Encyclopedia? I don't think we are having that much problem with science, and we will able to trim the Iroquois and Sioux soon enough.

Signed up:

Bezhukov (on deck)
LKendter
Romeothemonk
Zavior (currently playing)

My gut tells me no on the Encyclopedia. I think we would want Gute's before Encyclopedia, and we have so many things to build right now it is approaching ridiculus. I would keep up the Inca war so we can leader fish, as a few MGL's could really help us out. A cash rush gov could also help.
I think we can upgrade our cats, but I am not sure. If we can, (we can build trebs) I would do that ASAP.

Hey guys, I have a stupid question. :cringe: What difficulty are we playing on? :hmm:
I forgot and cannot find it posted in the thread anywhere. :dubious:

We are playing on Demigod.

Got it, will play tomorrow.

Regarding Encyclopedia; let it eat 1,000 Iro shields, then raze it. We need to figure out the Shakes prebuild, then work backwards to see how many turns we have to play with. How long til Free Artistry? 15 turns? How many turns does Shakes need? How many can we store (in Palace, then Encyclopedia - it does make a good prebuild.)

I'd say we revolt after completing Shakes, so we can grow during anarchy, then cash rush a bunch of stuff ASAP to get it before 750. Let's try to get a MGL or two to rush the Palaces/Holy City before then. I guess my precious Minsk can be turned to nefarious ends for this higher purpose. :)

So, LK, you liked the early GA strategy. What do think of the Second City strategy? Admittedly, would have helped to start the game with it in mind.

So, LK, you liked the early GA strategy. What do think of the Second City strategy? Admittedly, would have helped to start the game with it in mind.

I like any GA after a better government. With single city culture victories I would love it even one turn after leaving the penalty government. The more early culture you can double with huge tourism income, the better.

The 2nd city strategy is a mixed bag. We have to leave our capitol as a marginal city. I hate wasting a corruption free city. We must abandon Moscow after shakes to get St. Pete to size 21. I would have preferred a 2nd city another square or two from the capitol. That is why I choked initially on your city. I didn't see the plus at first, only the dead capitol negative.

"the dead capitol negative."

Perhaps we should ask the residents of Chicago, Seattle, Canterbury, and Hastings how dead our capital was, as they have an intimate acquantance with the troops produced there. :)

Point well taken, however. If we had started with this strategy in mind, Moscow would be located another tile SE, which, coincidentally, would have pulled in the iron, as well.

Note: We need to wait until the Forbidden and Summer Palaces (with appropriate gardens) are built to abandon Moscow.

Turn0: 170AD
Press enter.

Turn1: 190AD
Start gathering troosp to incan border.

Turn2: 210AD
Fend off some intruders, Holy city in 4.

Turn3: 230AD
We lose 3 knights IT. We have too few knights at the moment.

Turn4: 250AD
Sign peace. We need more troops.

Turn5: 260AD
Incas send stack of troops towards Moscow. Yieppee, war.

Turn7: 270AD
3 knights coming next turn.. Time to kick some incan butt :scan:
IBT: We lose 4 cats and 3 knights. So much for that attack.

Turn8: 280AD
No counter attacks this turn.

Turn9: 290AD
Start leo's as prebuild. It might not be timed very well though.

Turn10: 300AD
Switch St.Peterburg from high spt to high fpt. Delay leo's for 2 turns.

We can hold from incan attacks now, but cant advance either.

IBT: We lose 4 cats and 3 knights. So much for that attack.
OUCH - where was the good defender on the stack. All the fast units have horrid defense outside of the camel based units. Cats should never been defended with fast units except late in the game when some of them have good defense.

Since our host didn't list this:

Signed up:

Bezhukov (currently playing)
LKendter (on deck)
Romeothemonk
Zavior

Sounds as if the Inca are in their GA, so it's entirely possible that that they had sufficient Intis to chew through whatever defense we did have. From the description, sounds like the Knights were lost attacking approaching Inca pikes. The GA was one reason I was leaning to the Inca before the English. That water is now under the bridge.

Sounds like the Inca may take care of that dead capital problem themselves. :)

As for maxing food in St. Pete - that's what the other cities are for. Pls only grow St. Pete via worker joins and MM on the last turn of builds. We need max shields there. To figure out the Shakes pre-build, figure out how many shields St. Pete can make, then divide that into the Shakes cost to get the number of turns needed to prepare. Then compare that to the estimated time to get the tech.

Got the game, will play tonight.

Speed 3 units are in play. If the Inca have fast 3 units and a RoP with the Sioux we can get hit in one turn. Why is there ONLY lousy defender?

Moscow can build knights and cavalier is the SAME amount of time. Why build an attack 5 unit when you can build an attack 6 unit with the same speed and defense?
Minsk has the same issue AND an unneeded clown.
Also, you never know where a fast unit is hiding. Can we up the city defense to 2 pikes each?


Turn9: 290AD
Start leo's as prebuild. It might not be timed very well though.

Turn10: 300AD
Switch St.Peterburg from high spt to high fpt. Delay leo's for 2 turns.
Actually, the pre-build may be to LATE. Tech moves a lot faster in RaR. I suspect it will take a lot less time. You should always run high shields early and worry about delaying a pre-build later.



On a good note: We have hit the break-even point with culture (about 46 cpt). All new culture will let us gain more culture then average. :D

Lee, I expect that the knight building was my fault. I chose knights as they upgrade to cuirassiers. Both cavaliers and knights are 2 move, 2 defense, but we can upgrade the knights shortly into 3 move 6 attack, instead of having 2 move 6 attack for a lot longer.
By not explaining my thinking, as well as my attack patterns, I fear that I was the cause of those losses. If I have time during my next turnset, I will try and make an illustrated guide of my attack styles in RaR.

Lee, I expect that the knight building was my fault.

Your reasons for the knights makes sense. The upgrade path is so large in RaR that you can miss one.

We still do have the problem of to few defensive units.

Well yeah, I couldn't really find any defensive units for my turns. I lost most of those knights on OUR territory. They are iirc 2 turns from reaching St. Petersburg, if counting from border.(My memory isn't the best here)

They are iirc 2 turns from reaching St. Petersburg, if counting from border.(My memory isn't the best here)

Oops, my bad. :blush:

Also, during their golden age I expect the Inca to build a lot of Inti warriors. They are only move 2. I also didn't see any Inca Horses, so we may be safe there as well. A GA fueled enemy that produces lots of offensive units may be good for us to leader fish with. If I get a chance I would like to thump on some Inca cities and recover our pults.

Inca DID have horses, and got a Horse Archer within range of St. Pete. Things things will not concern us any more. :)

Pre-flight: Wow, we’re really behind in tech. How did that happen? Get Mapmaking and WM from England for Physics and Matchlock (widely known). Ship Absolutism and 650g to Abe for Theory of Warfare and Magnetism and Gems and WM. St. Pete to Academy in 2. Several Knight builds adjusted to Cav in 1 (much cheaper than Cuir), upgrade 4 Knights and an ER to Cuir at 150 a pop. Moscow to Halberdier in one. Tblisi to Water Mill in 2 – it’s been sitting on that Bazaar with no production boosters throughout Zav’s turns. Odessa switched to forge, with worker skim, then aqueduct coming.

We have several Knights fortified in cities. Better to have them slaying the Inca, methinks. We lack salt, BTW. Iros want an arm and a leg for it - hmmm, the English have some, and a mere three cities...

310AD: Moscow: Halberd->Pike, Minsk: Cavalier->Pike, Smolensk:Cav->Pike. I built Cavs so I could get the necessary Pikes built, will then go for Cuirs.

320AD: Tblisi:Water Mill->Forge, St. Pete: The Academy->Gute’s (pre-build for Shakes), he has a full box, so will starve a bit for more shields. Decent sized stack approaches Pucara.

IBT: Incas show up, to the east.

330AD: Odessa: forge->slave in 1, starving, Minsk: Pike->CH in 2, Moscow:Pike->Horse Archer (in 2, to kill approaching fast units), Smolensk, Pike->Pike, ER redlines, but takes out Inca HA on mountain.

340AD: Humanism in->Free Artistry in 6, Odessa:Slave->Aqueduct in 6, Cavalier takes out Inti near Moscow. Attack on Pucara:

Vet Cuir retreats, Inca vet pike 2/5
Vet Cuir dies, promoting Inca vet pike 5/7
Vet Cuir dies, Inca vet pike 2/5 (sure do miss those cats!)
Vet Cuir kills Inca elite 5/7 pike
Vet Cav redlines, killing Inca vet 2/5 pike
Elite Knight flawlessly kill inca vet pike 2/5
We take Pucara. :D

We get Leadership and 150 gold from Sioux for Humanism, Humanism and 400 gold to Hiawatha gets Mercantilism, and Mercantilism and Humanism get Jurisprudence from Abe. We are at tech parity. Switch Minsk to Cuir in 3.

IBT: Inca Imperial Guard approaches.

350AD: St. Pete makes Templar – that’s nice, no barracks = reg Templar. :( Elite Knight kills guard, unscratched. Moscow: HA->Cuir, Smolensk:Pike->Pike

IBT: Inti steps up to die.

360AD: Tblisi: Forge->CH (max growth for 3 to refill granary), Vet Cuir takes out lurking Inca HA, marshalling forces for attack next turn, then peace to take out English (they have saltpeter).

370AD: Smolensk: Pike->Pike, Whip a laborer in Pucara, rest units for attack.

IBT: Inca Cav impales itself on our Halberd with HA backup.

380AD: The battle for Paracas:

Vet Cuir kills vet pike
Vet Cuir kills vet pike
Vet Cuir dies to vet pike
Vet Cuir kills vet pike 2/5, promoting
Vet Cav kills Vet Cav, we take Paracas. :D
I’d love to get peace right now, but we probably need to take Quito to minimize flip risk.
Elite Knight takes out lurking Inti.

IBT: Sioux start Shakes, we will not have a monopoly. Need to revolt soon, we’re lagging on research. Leo’s completes. Mini-cascade scares me, but it’s only Circus. :eek:

390AD: We get the palace message! Pucara gets border expansion, whip a laborer in Paracas.

IBT: Inti from Quito impales itself on bait Halberd on hill. Cav kills Halberd.

400AD: The battle for Quito:

Elite Cuir kills vet pike
Vet Cuir retreats from vet pike 2/5
Vet Cuir retreats from vet pike 5/5
Vet Cuir redlines pike, then loses 5 straight hp!
Vet cav kills vet pike 2/5
Elite Knight dies to redlined demon pike! :mad:
Vet HA finally kill the pike, we take Quito. :D

That takes a lot of cultural pressure off, but we’re pretty overextended now. Cities are doubtful for peace, so we just get a WM. England is fighting America, so should be safe to declare on them when they ask for peace. We have 2 pikes in all northern cities.

Free Artistry comes in, switch to Shakes in 2, can stop starving and still produce it in 2, so MM some. Once resisters are quelled in Quito, pop-rush a settler to get pop down quickly. I've been taking the slight flip risk for the large reward of already developed cities. Need some more pikes to garrison the former Inca lands.

Needed to bump lux to 10% to keep Minsk happy. We will need this lux in new gov anyway. I will leave tech trading to the next player.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Zav1-400AD1.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Zav1-400AD2.JPG

Looks like Lee gets to lay down the hammer on the english. Good Work Bez. I know that war is not your favorite, but you did a pretty decent job there. You took out the heart of a golden aging opponent, all without using our best city.

Bezhukov
LKendter (currently playing)
Romeothemonk (on deck)
Zavior

There are a couple foreign workers on their way down to Quito to sacrifice for border expansion.

We still have free shrines and free monuments, the borders will expand naturally in 5 turns. I would keep the workers around for rails, as RR is a far more difficult task in RaR.
Was this started in 1.01, 1.02, or 1.03?

Thanks, Romeo. I ran things a little closer than I'd like, and the demon pike almost made me pay, but I knew that war with England was where we needed to be, so I didn't want to waste too much time on the Inca. My precious Minsk is rightfully unhappy about how little building I did there, but such are the wages of war...

I'm dreading the tongue-lashing to come from LK over giving him that 10 pop foreign city to starve down. :lol:

Our noerthern cities have a nice mix of grass and mountain, they will be very productive if we take the time to develop them. Smolensk can just keep cranking units, since he won't have many tiles to work when other cities get going. (Keep chopping the forests near Chicago to give him the food to work the mountains).

1.03

We can spare a couple workers at 20 culture a pop.

I'm dreading the tongue-lashing to come from LK over giving him that 10 pop foreign city to starve down. :lol:
:spank: :spank: :spank:

Well since you asked for it.

LK, Flipcalc says the flip chance is .725% per turn. This goes down to zero when it get's starved (with a garrison of two and a culture expansion). As we're in a pop rush government, a settler can be pop-rushed to take off six pop ASAP, so this shouldn't be too hard to do.

The upside is, we don't have to waste all the shields one of own cities doesn't produce because its pop went down three to make a settler, and we get all the pretty buildings in the captured city. The worst that can happen is that we lose four units and the Incas get Quito back - but now that the other two cities have starved down, there would be little culture pressure from Quito.

The one thing in civ I think you could improve on, LK, is the evaluation of risks and rewards. ;) There are other things you have already taught me...

The worst that can happen is that we lose four units and the Incas get Quito back - but now that the other two cities have starved down, there would be little culture pressure from Quito.

The one thing in civ I think you could improve on, LK, is the evaluation of risks and rewards. ;) There are other things you have already taught me...
We will never agree on this one. I lost more then one game early on due a critical flip. I am very paranoid about flips. I agree on capturing small towns if we can get exclusive control of the 21 tiles. Quito can NEVER achieve that goal. At that point I consider the risk to high.

===============================

Shakespeare is ours. The big question is do we want to revolt now? We can get Democracy (no better on corruption, but cash rush) or Abs Monarchy (better on corruption. We could wait for the really powerful governments of the early IA.

My gut feeling says we waited so long we may as well wait for the early IA governments. I would like to hear another opinion.
I have stopped after 420AD waiting on comments.

I like waiting a little longer. Lets use our no WW to go make the Sun set on the English Empire.

Yeah, let's get the Palaces and Gardens's now, we can get Fed Repub soon.

As for never getting the 21 tiles - never is a long time. Are you telling me you do not anticipate us owning that Sioux town within the next fifty tuns? I know Romeo better than that. :)

Flipcalc says that at 1 pop, 4 units will reduce chance of flipping to Sioux to zero, even sharing three of 21 tiles. Even less are required to prevent flip to Inca. I say this knowing you've already abandoned the city...

"I lost more then one game early on due a critical flip."

Here's the key point - Quito is NOT critical. The upside on marginal cities is much higher than the down.

I say this knowing you've already abandoned the city...
WRONG - we still own the city. Nothing critical was in the nearby city.

Woo hoo!

[party]

Now watch it flip. :lol:

Here's how I (as an industrial engineer, yes work's been slow here lately) figure this stuff:

95% chance of no flip x 700 shields worth of buildings - 5% chance of flip x (400 shields of units + 5% chance of chain flip x 1000 shields in next city) = 665 - 22.5 = a positive amount, so keep. Other factors enter in, like how dangerous the Inca are, etc... but this is a good way to do a rough estimate.

Might be a good idea to pop-rush a couple pikes instead of settlers to garrison Quito. I apologize for leaving the tenuous situation (peace with Inca prevented retaking, necessity of garrisoning with offensive units). Poor war-planning on my part.

Um, Bez, I had respect for you until you said you were an imaginary engineer. :smug: But since this is engineers week I will let it slide. :mischief:
As a ChemE, I would ask you how you came up with 1000 shields in the next city. (Please don't say you asked marketing).
In General when I go to war with someone, I either raze all or capture all with almost no middle ground.
That is why I followed Lee's suggestions to raze Hastings, and for good measure I burned another city. I advocated capturing Inca cities as they had lower culture, and are closer to our capitol.
P.S. Bez, good work on the math, I use a slightly more rigorous formula (when I feel like it :borg: ), but this is the first time I have every seen an IE mention math without being tortured. :goodjob:
Did I mention IE's don't necessarily have a high standing at SDSMT? It is just because at my school, if you fail out of EE, ChemE, or even God help you ME, you can graduate with honors in IE. It might be indicative of our faculty, but my buddies in industry also put down IE's in general.

Bez, I too am bored (running a research project and letting time work) and I ran some numbers with your formula. I made a spreadsheet, and providing each captured city has 700 shields worth of improvements, we have 400 shields guarding it and 1000 shields in the next city. With these figures we keep everything with less than a 33% chance of flipping.
That seems awfully close to gambling. I usually break out the torches over 10%, unless it has Smith's, or a similar mass freebie wonder. But I agree with you on keeping Quito, and also on the Sioux city not being there in 50 turns. ;)

400 AD
GACK - Shakespeare and size above 15 is about to arrive, yet Moscow has grown to size 8 further choking St. Petersburg.

Free Artistry, wm and $85 go to America for Naval Cannon.


410 AD
(IT) We get the ultimate culture wonder of Shakespeare. :dance:
I take a culture break to build a Bazaar as that is a pre-requisite for Smith's.


440 AD
(IT) The Inca and Sioux trade embargo ends.
The English complete Gutenberg's Bible.


500 AD
I ship the Sioux Social Contract @ Monopoly, our extra Horses and $175 and get Cavalry Tactics and Newtonian Synthesis.
I ship the Iroquois Social Contract, Coffee, wm and $310 and get Flintlock.
Our free tech is Theory of Evolution.
I ship Theory of Evolution to the Sioux for Federalism, wm, and $1050.



==========================

Summary:
IMPORTANT: It is now time to make the government decision. I bought Federalism.
We can either sell Theory of Evolution for over $1000, or buy Constitutionalism with us giving money. No matter what I would hold off the revolt until after Smith's is done.

I would build the 2 palaces next so that we can move Moscow.
St. Petersburg will become the next capitol and will make over 100 shields at that point.

I am surprised how few cities had Russian wisemen built. They are a cheap 50% science boast for no GPT. We didn't take full advantage of our traits.

The reason I built so many mameluks is that preferred to have 2 attack 5 units over one attack 6 unit. Especially when the attack 5 units (mameluks) have a better defense factor.

Have run Romeothemonk. We finally have enough units to blitz through England.

Signed up:

Bezhukov
LKendter
Romeothemonk (currently playing)
Zavior (on deck)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ZAV1-500AD.zip

LK, I'd advise you play some shadow turns, as my experience is that Mameluk rhymes with "suck" for a reason. It's the hitpoints, mainly. Your mileage may vary, though I like the concern with efficiency - I like to mix in Cavs myself. As the English are unlikely to offer much in the way of counters (they've been fighting with America), the attack number is likely to be more relevant than defense.

Not sure what the big deal of Moscow crowding St. Pete is. Moscow has never worked a tile that St. Pete needed, and never will. Just have Moscow make a couple settlers working hills and join them to St. Pete. I'd build Smith's in Minsk and get the palaces and gardens in St. Pete. Way more culture. Then revolt after palace jump and Smith's complete. If the AI builds it first, we'll capture it.

Id like to find a way to get the Sioux and Iros fighting. Sounds like a job for Romeo...

I will likely get to this tomorrow. I think St. Petes will immeadiately go for the FP and SP, with Minsk getting Smiths. I will also try to use Mameluks to conquer england.

As for being an IE, what can I say?

IE male/female ratio = 1:1
EE male/female = 1:10

Plus Georgia Tech had the #1 IE program in the nation, we actually did engineering. ;)

Romeo,

I guess great minds think alike. And ours do too. :)

Make sure to get the high-culture gardens too. Check to see, but I think Summer is more than Forbidden.

BTW, LK, great job on the tech - I would have never thought of going for social contract. :goodjob:

Regarding the formula I outlined, all the specific figures are estimates, as I didn't open the save. You can fill them in as appropriate. The 5% figure is also an estimate, as flipcalc said the flip chance was 7% over 10 turns, but the variables change in our favor over that period, so 5% is actually conservative.

In the 33% example you cited, such a high chance usually also involves some other high downsides, such as losing a beachhead or what not, so in those cases, razing could be justified. There was a very good discussion on razing or capturing in one of these forums by one of the best players, and he argued for almost always capturing.

As for being an IE, what can I say?

IE male/female ratio = 1:1
EE male/female = 1:10

Plus Georgia Tech had the #1 IE program in the nation, we actually did engineering. ;)

Yeah but I caught a good female that wasn't an engineer. I don't doubt you did actual engineering, and Georgia Tech is significantly better than Rapid Tech at many things. (We stole your fight song rather blatantly).
We came to the same conclusions, but I still have many doubts about your math. :crazyeye: Don't feel put down, I doubt most math I don't do. I also snagged a physics degree, and was taught math by some Ukranian Profs, so I have a minor inkling that my Math skills and suspicions were supplemented by this. It is also one of the reasons I started balding when I was 19. :lol: (Try doing math with Russian trained guys some day, just let me know so I can buy some Rogaine stock). (It is very useful at times, but dear Lord is it time consuming, mostly pointless, and highly aggravating) (Not trying to brag, just bringing up a humorous point, or maybe my humor is so warped through school as to annoy others).
I actually like the Mamelukes in RaR, and haven't really noticed a HP deficiency. However, when given the choice between 5 attack 3 move, and 6 attack 3 move, I tend towards the 6 attack. It is kind of like the rationale for people hating the cossack in Vanilla, I don't plan on defending with them. The lower cost of the Mamelukes makes up for them though, as I would rather have 10 5 attack units then 5-7 6 attack.
I think the danger point of this game is past, and from here on out we should act like Steve Spurrier and run up the score.

Not sure what the big deal of Moscow crowding St. Pete is. Moscow has never worked a tile that St. Pete needed, and never will.
St. Pete is still short a tile until Moscow can be abandoned. I had to still play games this round with MM for our 25K city and recovering hills.

I think part of the problem is I never like the placement of Moscow and St. Pete. I hate having a throwaway capitol. While it worked this game, it goes so against my play style it has frustrated me constantly in the game.


LK, I'd advise you play some shadow turns, as my experience is that Mameluk rhymes with "suck" for a reason.
Actually, the other game I built them they worked great for me. Sheer number of attacks is often important.

BTW, LK, great job on the tech - I would have never thought of going for social contract. :goodjob:
The AIs just went industrial. You know they will always beeline for a government tech (just like commie / fascist in standard). I then found an opening they missed. It prove again that it is harder to fall behind in RaR if you can get any monopoly tech no matter how useless.

"Actually, the other game I built them they worked great for me. Sheer number of attacks is often important."

That's what I woulda thought too, but I ended up with a lot of dead Mameluks. They are more suited for open combat than taking cities.

"I think part of the problem is I never like the placement of Moscow and St. Pete. I hate having a throwaway capitol. While it worked this game, it goes so against my play style it has frustrated me constantly in the game."

Well, throwing away the capital was only part of the plan because I thought of using a second city for the 25K after I had founded Moscow. I do think the idea of dedicating the capital to military while the second city does wonders is a sound one - it doesn't require placing them so close together. I have found close city placement to be an effective approach to high level games - helps get full use of the limited amount of tiles you're given to play with.

The math is just basic "expected value" analysis, in this case omitting several variables to illustrate the point.

Romeo, are you there. I'm giving you 12 hours to post got it.

I've got it. Romeo3 and my Juliet took up my spare time Yesterday. I am not going to complain about the latter. Playing now.

IHT: Swap St. Petes to military academy, that way it gets a barracks that gives cpt and doesn't waste shields. Swap minsk to Bazaar, move Lee's nice stack back 1 space and declare on England.
IBT: Lose 2 Rop's, give lincoln flintlock for his gems.
Turn 1: Quito slavemarket to Library, Sevestpool, wiseman to library. Tblisis starts a temple. Upgrade some workers, since it will help in 1.03. Attack Nottingham, capture with no losses, killing a pike and a tribal guardian. (2-0)
IBT: Inca lose some units to America.
Turn 2: Minsk Bazaar to courthouse, going for Prison first, then Smiths. Resistance ends in nottingham, it had no buildings but our freebies. It goest to court. Iro and Sioux both start on Clauswitz.
IBT: Inca lose more units to America.
Turn 3: We build the Military Academy. Start Summer Palace. Build a curisaar and a windfarm, another cuirasser and a bazaar ordered up. Lose 1 cavalier, kill four pikes, and capture london, 4 slaves and Shangri La. Comes with no buildings other than wonders. Kill a lose english pike and a Man of war. We now have wines. (8-1). I sacraficed a worker in london to help us out a bit, London still seems like a bit of a flip risk, but for What we get, I will sacrafice a worker.
IBT:
Turn 4: A lot of Infra builds. Positioning now.
BIT: Iro RoP expires, Americans continue to kill Inca.
Turn 5: Positioning to take last english city. We get sugar, 9 gpt and a WM from Aztecs for sugar.
IBT: Inca and America continue to kill each other.
Turn 6: Build the summer palace, start on the Forbidden. I want the reduced empire corruption before the extra 2 cpt for 2 turns. Kill 2 pikes and a teutonic knight in York, get gems, and eliminate England. (11-1). Upgrade Treb to cannon.
IBT: Steam comes in and is already known this IBT only.
Turn 7: going to finish the FP this turn then revolt. Upgrade St. Petes pikes to muskets. Upgrae our lone sword to musket. Why all the upgrades you ask? Want to Declare war on Iro but we trade with them. :argh:
Turn 8: Get perspective, WM and 6 gpt from America for Cavalry Tactics. Revolt and draw a four turn Anarchy. We have coal by Chicago. Can get America to delcare, but see no current need.
Turn 9: Moving and improving.
Turn 10: Japan moves in on an obvious sneak attack, we cannot even boot or declare on them. Thus I will declare. I do declare (In my best southern Belle voice :) ). Kill a chariot, knights of the Realm, samaruai, and an Elelphant Rider. (15-1). We can trade with the Americans, or sign up the Aztecs vs the Japs. Sorry guys, I just can't stand peace in RaR.
Sorry for the delay guys.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Fallofengland.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/present.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ZAV1-600AD.SAV

We get sugar, 9 gpt and a WM from Aztecs for sugar.
That is a strange sounding trade. ;)

Sorry guys, I just can't stand peace in RaR.
Remind me not to play after you. I like to have quite builders turns some of the time.


Signed up:
Bezhukov (on deck)
LKendter
Romeothemonk
Zavior (currently playing)

Whoops, the trade was for some garbage tech. I just cannot remember offhand.

The one good thing about playing oscillating war in RandR is that the AI rarely muster the SoD's of unmodded - especially the weak AI's. They have too many shield drains to produce the units. So you get to keep your troops in practice and get the occasional MGL with low risk. The downside is the restricted stategic options. War on the Sioux or Iroquois would be more profitable than war on Japan, and we lack the raw power to handle both at the moment.

War with Japan is the equivalent of quiet builder turns, as we can handle it with existing units, supplemented with reinforcements from Smolensk, while our other cities continue developing. Pls do not jump palace until the appropriate gardens are built...

Actually Bez, I really wanted to make war on the Iro on my turnset, but I couldn't because of deals. I couldn't even take on the Sioux during my turns, because of locked deals. BTW we are average with the sioux in terms of Military.
Through MLDR05 and other similar games, I am seeing the power of a human on a continual warpath. RaR just amplifies the little thing like kill ratio's and strategic planning. If you have a strategic goal and a tactical plan of how to accomplish it, and do not deviate from it, you can become a very sucessful warmonger.
I am absolutely salivating for a chance at LK88, a diety RaR game. I will get to do some massive warring against a tech leader. It will be the first turnset where I am not shakled with a specific peace/builder mode in mind.

Well, LK88 presents a good opportunity to compare play styles, as I picked it up and played it to the end when I thought the game was dead. I promised not to post any more info from my game, as LK rightly pointed out that this was spoiler info, but when LK88 completes, I'll let you know how my game, and very different strategy, played out.

I think the bottom line is - the RandR AI needs help.

Signed up:
Bezhukov (on deck)
LKendter
Romeothemonk
Zavior (currently playing) :scan: :scan:
Wondering where our host is.

I'm still alive.

Press enter.

Turn1
Shift units towards japan.

Turn2
Some minor skirmishes at border.

Turn3
We take Satsuma. Japan is rallying her troops to north? :mischief:

Turn4
Japanese counterattack is ridiculous. They suicide few champions :crazyeye:

Turn5
Well, not so ridiculous anymore. They can actually kill units.

Turn6
Quiet turn. Some attacks on satsuma. No losses :)

Turn7
WW hits. Sign peace with japan. We need more troops to offer any resistance against kensai.

Turn8
We get industrialization. Start on steam engine.

Turn9
I absolutely know nothing to write. 2 cossacks head towards satsuma.

Turn10
Steam engine in 3. 3 Cossacks at go-to towards satsuma.

Since our host forget to post this...

Signed up:
Bezhukov (currently playing)
LKendter (on deck)
Romeothemonk
Zavior

I have a request that the leader rush the most expensive improvement in our 25K cities. Early armies bite in RaR.
I noticed that my request about was ignored. :(

I noticed a fortified leader in St. Petersburg. This is the same leader from the start of Zavior's turn. Leaders should be used ASAP.
What I am going to suggest is switch St. Petersburg to Heroic Epic (2 culture points), then leader rush National Monument for another 3. The factory should wait until after the critical 750AD date for culture doubling.

I did not build army. The leader is still unused. Wonder why didn't I use it thou.. :blush:

Got it. Zav, since this is a 25K game, production choices in St. Pete are noteworthy for reports, unless you were producing wealth there during your 10 turns...

:)

Pre-flight: Somehow I don’t think our host is completely with the program, as our capital still has 8 pop, and St. Pete only 17. Kinda hard to generate leaders when you’ve already got one on ice. C’mon, Zav, you’re a better player than that! Satsuma is a flip risk even for me, I’m afraid to even ask LK about it – starvation diet there. Wow, London’s got some nice wonders – pls do not research Ship Building, as it turns off our Colossus there. Tblisi builds Hardy Colonist to claim city near American gold colony. Switch Moscow to Colonist to bleed pop before disbanding. Will short rush factory once St. Pete gets extra pop.

Somehow, we’ve managed to fall behind 7 techs. Zav, if you’re just going to hit enter ten times, why play?
What happened to building Smith’s? Too late now – we’ll just have to capture it.

710AD: Minsk: Port->SofS in 1, Odessa: Guild Hall->Temple (it has a specialist), Moscow: Colonist->Colonist

Oh, and our rep is also busted, as the Iros will pay nothing for our wine. Great. We lack the funds to short rush the factory. Making 100 spt.

IBT: Iros build Encyclopedia, lots of cascading

720AD: Short-rush factory in St. Pete via army – gaining one turn of production for 215 gold. Minsk: Sofs->Factory, Smolensk:Line->Line (in 3), Pucara: Wise->Academy

730AD: St. Pete: Factory->Nat. Monument (in 7), rushed, Chicago: Town Clock->Academy (in1), Odessa: temple->market (happiness), Tblisi: Hardy->Academy in 1, Moscow:Colonist->dead.

Trade Steam Engine to Iro for three required techs, Sioux give us 750 gold, allowing 4 turn research on High Explosives.

Switch St. Pete to Palace Gardens in one, as they haven’t been built yet.

740AD: London: Forge->CH, Quito: Temple>Bazaar, Tblisi:Academy->SofS, Paracas:CH->Temple, Chicago:Academy->Toll House (in 1)

High Explosives falls to 2 turns. Our tech pace is picking up nicely.

750AD: More pollution hits St. Pete (two turns in a row, luckily not effecting production), St. Pete builds Nat. Monument->Coal Plant in 3 (may change once pollution is cleared), Sevastopol:Aqueduct->Town Clock, Chicago:Toll House->Guild Hall, Smolensk: Line->Line (every third turn, he can squeak out a little growth), Tblisi -> SofS->colonist (to grab Iron Works city location to north), Switch St. Pete to HE in 2 to get doubling faster (good fit with current production), will be able to get Forbidden Gardens in one soon with rails.

760AD: Various builds.

Send Aztecs our spare horse for sugar, we want to help the weaklings to try to slow down tech – we are behind on buildings. We get 4 techs for High Explosives. We now have parity in required techs, but Electricity cancels our free granaries and monuments.

770AD: St. Pete: HE->Wiseman (I’ll get these out of the way while railing – should boost shields for bigger builds soon), Tblisi: Colonist->granary,

IMORTANT: Laborers take 12 turns to rail, peasants 24 (let’s get ‘em upgraded!)

780AD: Odessa: Library->Academy (in 1), St. Pete:Wiseman->SofS (research time dropped another turn), Tblisi:granary->factory, Quito: Bazaar->laborer

790AD: Get two techs and a bunch of cash for Steel, City Planning in 4, making money. Upgrade a bunch of workers. We now have replacable parts (rifles), this also makes Cossacks not quite so good. Still the best unit in Civ for cleaning up counters, but not so much for attacking cities.

I envision Chicago and Vladivostok being “twin cities”, both maxing at 15 pop (minimizing pollution, not needing sewers) and cranking lots of units. Vlad can get the Iron Works)

800AD: Well, the Iros just showed up in our north, so I’ll let Romeo decide how to respond. All units have movement left. Good luck!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ZAV1-800AD.SAV

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/New Moscow.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Zav1-800AD.JPG

Somehow, we’ve managed to fall behind 7 techs. Zav, if you’re just going to hit enter ten times, why play?
The fall behind in tech happened on Romeothemonk turn. We were 6 techs behind as of then, and Zavior only fell behind by one more tech. I agree there was :smoke: during Zavior's turn, but the tech picture isn't it.


What happened to building Smith’s? Too late now – we’ll just have to capture it.
This is disappointing to here. I know the play was to give up on Smith's in St. Petersburg and move it elsewhere. I read the comments that justified moving it. I have no clue why both Romeothemonk and Zavior ignored it.

Somehow I don’t think our host is completely with the program, as our capital still has 8 pop.
WTH? I ended my 500AD turn with St. Pete and 19 pop points and Moscow at 3. Romeothemonk did let Moscow grow, but St. Pete is still at 19 pop points. St. Pete was at an Optimal 100 shields and now the pop is 17 and 87 shields. Bezhukov, this is where I agree with you 100% on a major mistake. I have no idea how St. Pete shrunk, but that NEVER should have happened.

Oh, and our rep is also busted, as the Iros will pay nothing for our wine.
Zavior, how did this happen? Our rep was perfect as of the start of you turns. The rep was ruined with the Iroquois.

so I’ll let Romeo decide how to respond.
:confused:

Signed up:
Bezhukov
LKendter (currently playing, but not at all happy)
Romeothemonk (on deck)
Zavior

Bez, you have to ask how I will respond?? Anyone want to join in the party of making the Iro's Irrelevant??
I smell WAR!!
I do not think that Smiths is a lost cause, we can get it in St Petes in 10, and I would try and do that. In fact, I will do that, or at least start it after I get the coal plant done. I like wars for leader fishing.
I wouldn't come down too hard on our host, this is an interesting game, and I enjoy this one. Zavior also appears to be relatively new to SG's, and I always encourage new players to host games.
Plus by trade and training you and Lee, and to some extant myself are all taught to look through all the details, do long term planning and then execute the plans. It is not necessarily fair to assume that everyone does that. I like to use the fly by the seat of my pants technique in games sometimes.
I will get to this one after LK's Blood bath game.

I will get to this one after LK's Blood bath game.
:confused:
What the?????????????
I show you AFTER me. I am currently playing.


Signed up:
Bezhukov
LKendter (currently playing, but not at all happy)
Romeothemonk (on deck)
Zavior

D'oh Nuts.
Sorry LK. Didn't mean to jump you. I am an idiot for not reading the roster.
I misread Bez's comment to think I was up.

My bad. I was thinking "time for war", hence Romeo. :)

I should probably mix in a few more mil builds to avoid leaving LK with the military catch-up turns, but we got our research cranked way up on my turns, so we should be ok. I veto the Smith build, the culture per shield rate is atrocious. Much better to let the AI eat the shields, then capture - Romeo's starting to get to me. :lol:

Zav, sorry if I was too hard on you - it is your game, after all. If you have any questions, feel free to stop and ask.

800 AD
I spend a big block of our cash upgrading 2 units to rifles in Odessa. This greatly reduces the odds of a city loss.

It is hard to say if the Iroquois pattern is heading toward a "sneak" attack. However, I wake all spare offensive troops near Japan and start them home. No matter what I prefer the reserves near the core cities.

St. Petersburg does stick with the coal plant. To many of the good wonders left are very expensive.
(IT) As fear the Iroquois start a war.


810 AD
I give the Sioux Elephants and Incense to join the crusade against the evil Iroquois.
I give America Nationalism to fight the Iroquois. The Iroquois have units coming from to many fronts.
I give the Inca Leadership and Economics to join the fight.

I was really confused by the Colossus comment until I realized we captured it in London. I will avoid Ship Building.
(IT) The alliances worked well as the AI killed some Iroquois units and the Iroquois went somewhat away from us.
The Iroquois complete Clausewitz.


820 AD
(IT) Next up for St. Petersburg is Forbidden Gardens. How can I argue with 3 culture points in just 1 turn.


830 AD
I ship the Sioux City Planning for Modern Legal System, $1537 and wm. I now have plenty of cash to finish upgrading our workers.
(IT) The Iroquois and Aztecs ally vs. America.
St. Petersburg will build a park to reduce pollution and it still gets us 1 more culture point.
Japan completes Sistine Chapel. If we had only known that 4-point wonder was going to take that long.


840 AD
(IT) The Incan and Japan trade embargo ends.
St. Petersburg goes to a placeholder.


850 AD
(IT) Japan and the Iroquois ally vs. the Sioux.
Japan and the Iroquois ally vs. the Inca.
Japan and the Iroquois ally vs. America.
One of our sources of elephants has depleted. Of course it is the only by St. Petersburg costing us some food and gold.


860 AD
I know it is only 1 culture point, but St. Petersburg switches to Supreme Court. The local courthouses do wonders for reducing corruption.


870 AD
I am happy to report we have 2 sources of oil.

I can't get Repeating Rifle from The Sioux. I bleed them dry instead by shipping them Refining for $78/turn, $197, wm and a worker.

880 AD
St. Petersburg now makes 200 shields a turn. :D
(IT) It is now building Taj Mahal. However, this is open to be changed. I am just trying to snag any wonder with decent culture points.


==========================

Summary:
The next wonder is up for debate. We can switch to just about anything.

The war has been a total phony one the last few rounds. With so many cities pushing on factories I didn't want to slow down for military.


Signed up:
Bezhukov
LKendter
Romeothemonk (currently playing)
Zavior (on deck)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ZAV1-900AD.zip

Now I got it.
Sorry LK.

Brilliant play, LK, I can argue with none of your decisions. You didn't miss a trick, even getting the crucial Park in St. Pete (the main thing that took me to City Planning). Getting Factories (and Coal Plants, with Parks) in the core will be crucial to the next phase - the 3X wonders. National History, Central Bank, Wall Street, Empire State, eventually Las Vegas, sure there are more I'm not thinking of. To be ready to use the MGL's Romeo will be generating, we need to have the prereq buildings already.

Our overall strategy of keeping the AI balanced paid off nicely in helping with the Iro sneak. Now that Hiawatha's been piled, perhaps our attention turns to the Sioux? Is Japan making gains? They've likely been in recent GA.

"Japan completes Sistine Chapel"

It comes at an awkward time, and I'm not sure, with the shield cost, that it is worth building, even at 4 cpt. I did spend 3 turns on the cheap non-culture sci builds, but those have been key to our ability to bleed the Sioux (and thus slow him down), and soon will allow us to do the same to Hiawatha.

There is another big wonder coming up soon - Crystal Palace and the free assembly plants. I got the production help from Supreme Court and would like another round. I agree we need banks in place, etc. That is with I let all the AIs beat each other up during the factory push.

Now that Hiawatha's been piled, perhaps our attention turns to the Sioux?
The Sioux are a current ally. We don't have much to turn toward for a bit.

IHT: Sign an RoP with America. Move troops to Boston. Kill Elite Iro Leatherneck (1-0). Spend some gold on Upgrades.
IBT: Atlanta Becomes Incan. Research set to Refrigeration. Marxism and 100 gold gets us repeating rifle from the Sioux, they have refrigeration, set to Interanl combustion.
Turn 1: I upgrade some units to cavs.
IBT: Some cities riot because I moved the lux slider, I realized I lowered it but didn't put it back. Scrollahead prevents a lot of damage. Aztecs build Magellans.
Turn 2: More movement. reset lux.
IBT: Aztecs and Iro sign MPP. Aztecs declare on Sioux
Turn 3: Aztecs declare on us when I trigger the MPP by attacking Boston. Help keep lincoln in the Game by killing a bunch of Aztecs. (4-0). Since Japan is all over the Aztec Territory, get them to sign a MA for Constitutionlism. Get furs and spices from Japan for Modern leagal system. Sell Horses to the Sioux for Olive oil, 10 gpt and 28 gold. Kill a leatherneck by boston, after the first guy retreated. (5-0).
IBT: Iros declare on Japan.
Turn 4: Moving to heal and working on the RR.
IBT: Internal combustion comes in. Get Advance metallurgy and refrigeration for IC, wines, rubber and 600 gold.
Turn 5: Build the Taj Mahal, start on the eiffel tower. Kill an Iro leatherneck by Boston. (6-0).
Turn 6: Moving. I see a japanese Canoe.
IBT: NOt much
Turn 7: Lose a reg cav to a vet leatherneck near Boston (6-1). Kill 2 rifles and capture Boston from the IRo (8-1).
IBT: We get screw propeller, can't get anything good for it. Sioux then build the ToE.
Turn 8: Sioux got Emancipation and screw proppeller. Kill a leather neck by San Fransicso.
IBT: Not much
Turn 9: Use an artillary to sink an Iro Galley by Quito. (9-1). Setting up an attack to San Fransisco.
IBT: Sioux and Iro's fight
Turn 10: Trade the Japanese Social Darwinism for gold, 9 gpt and silver. The Japanese have almost wiped out the Aztecs.
I adjusted production after the Screenshot to get Mass production in 1. When Mass production comes in, we lose our free shrines. Also when it comes in, St. Pete should wap to the Crystal Palace, then go back to the Eifel tower.
I have an attack force ready to hit San Fran next turn. I would bombard with Artillary, then send in the cavs, and leave the elite cuirasser to try and pick off stray units later.
I am using Chicago for military and rotating another city in and out every once and a while. We should also try and complete our military railnet. I spent a good deal of time improving our core, and getting a railnet there.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/zavior1000.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ZAV1-1000AD.SAV

Good show, Romeo, as usual. :)

I kinda regret not building more military on my turns to give you more tools to work your magic with. I'm a little surprised the Sioux have not made more headway in Iro lands, but this world war was well-timed (the advent of Rifles) to thin out offensive capabilities without changing the balance of power much.

Good call as well on feeding the Sioux horses now that they are useless. :lol:

As we have plenty to build, might want to slow down the tech pace a bit (avoiding the trading of techs for techs, instead draining gpt) Crystal Palace will rock!

May want to still build Cossacks for clean-up duty, as they require no unit support, have blitz and 2 extra hp.

Good luck Zav.

Use an artillery to sink an Iro Galley by Quito.
I didn't realize they had fatal sea bombard. They are even better then I first realized and I love 2 movement points.


St. Pete should swap to the Crystal Palace
Crystal palace gives a free production boast in EVERY city. That wonder is awesome.

I knew Romeothemonk would have to fight somewhere. ;)
My play style is different in that I like to sometimes have the AI beat each other silly will I improve production. This is usually around the time of factories. Once the human has a rail-net they are unstopable 95% of the games.

Signed up:
Bezhukov (on deck)
LKendter
Romeothemonk
Zavior (currently playing)

In case there is any question why Crystal Palace.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-632.jpg

Got it. Its my civ dedicated night today :)

It is also key to note that there is an error in the civilopedia. Assembly Plants cost no upkeep, thus making them even better.
We will Lose Angkor Wat, but that shouldn't hurt us too much. When we do lose Angkor Wat, I would swap boston to a Shrine, for the happiness and the Culture.
After we get the Crystal Palace, I would get a hospital in St. Pete, then go on to the Eiffel Tower.

Turn 1
Woah. This turns out to be great.
On my first turn, SGL pops out :)
Some minor MM

Turn 2
Saving SGL for wonderland, which gives 6 cpt. Eiffel tower in 3.

Turn 3
Eiffel tower in 1? I must have lost turn somewhere now.

Turn 4
Change of plans. Rush Crystal Palace, hence we now have 3 factories.

Turn 5
St.Petersburg is now at 295 spt. Start hospital, in 2. Capture St Francisco.

America is down to 2 cities. We have ROP with them.

Turn 6
Psychology comes in, automatc weapons in 4. We have empty army, I'll let it be so, meh want tanks.

Turn 7
Hospital finishes. St. Petersburg not at 309 spt.
Start cathedral, in 1.

Turn 8
Cathedral in, start amusement park, in 2.

Turn 9
Amusement park in 1. Automatic weapons in 1.

Turn 10
Automatic weapons in, start on "transportation something".
Start on wonderland, can be swiched.

I decided to build 6cpt of culture in 6 turns, instead of going for Wonderland, which also would give 6cpt but take 8turns to build.

Our cpt is now 105.

For next player: I brought some beduins and cavarly to quito. We also have some cavs fortified in coastal cities. Not that it matters, since our core is already railed.

Since our host forget this again:

Signed up:
Bezhukov (currently playing)
LKendter (on deck)
Romeothemonk
Zavior

Argh. I dont keep forgetting it, it just slips out of my mind... :crazyeye:

So we built the Eiffel tower by hand and rushed the Crystal palace?
Sounds fair. I would in Bez's turns build some science buildings in St. Pete as well as finally Smiths. I think Smiths would pay off huge, like ~100 gpt huge. Each Science building is worth ~100 beakers per turn, which is also huge.
I would angle research to get us to the Steel Foundry. More spt is always good.

The loss of San Francisco really wouldn't hurt us. Can we please move a lot of the cavalry back to the core. That city isn't even on the rail-net. I don't want another round where all my forces are nowhere near the front.

I am not sure why every worker is so spread out. It can take forever to get enough workers freed up to clear pollution this way. If St. Petersburg is hit by pollution and not cleaned up it could cost us a worker. This is why I concentrate all workers to rail 1 tile before going on the next.

We can now plant forest. We have cities like Quito maxed out at size 15 with 10+ excess food. We really need to plant some forest.

IMHO parks should be built BEFORE military. I hate dealing with pollution (especially with the spread out work force) and parks reduce building pollution.

We should push at least 5 cities up to banks to claim the Central Bank wonder. This gives +50 in interest like Wall Street in the standard game.

NO civ has even STARTED Smith's. Can we switch Tblisi to it. We have a ton of military, and Smith's will complete in just 13 turns. This is before railing tiles and planting forest.

"Each Science building is worth ~100 beakers per turn, which is also huge."

Is that you, Romeo? Are you feeling...OK??? :lol:

If Romeo is advocating science, that must mean... cry havoc and let slip the dogs!

JK.

Good counsel all, LK. Judging by his post, our host is starting getting the hang of things. Thanks for taking care of the "pointing out some things" bit so I don't have to in the report. I had intended this go round to work on providing you a better military situation, so that Romeo can war more effectively.

Note the SGL would not have been possible had I done so last turn set and neglected the situation that had left us 7 techs behind. ;)

Got the game and will start Smith's with an assist from Johnny Appleseed, guess you're tired of waiting for it to be built so we can capture it...

Pre-flight: Nice stack of workers railing a mountain that cannot be worked by any city. What’s up with that? Spreading out workers in general is not a great idea. Cuts down on flexibility.

All these cities with extra food at max pop levels are a :no-no:.We’ve got the tools to fix their food. We can skim workers to capture the extra food, heck, we’re expansionist, so aqueducts and sewers are cheaper. Bad MM. I feel like some crazy teenager’s had the run of my house whenever I pick up this game.

What’s up with the worker building a railroad to nowhere north of Boston?

Our alliances vs. Hiawatha are up, and he is suitably chastened, so we give him Psych (turning off his Encyclopedia) and he gives us Motorized Transport for peace. We give Mot and Psych to Crazy Horse for monopoly Thermo and another hunk of gpt. Thermo back to Hiawatha for two luxes and all his gold plus some gpt.

St. Pete: Arena in 1 (we can build Smith’s in 4 there, BTW), Odessa switched to Park in one (most of these changes are to skim off workers next turn before building Sewers or planting forests.), Sevastopol: Factory in 7, Chicago: Coal Plant in 3, Vlad: Water Mill in 5, Tblisi: Harbor (to get the food right on forest plants), Minsk: Laborer, Pucara: Port in 1, Paracas: Wind Mill in 1, Quito: Laborer, New Moscow: Factory in 5, Nottingham: Water Mill in 5, Yakutsk: Water Mill in 1, London: Water Mill in 4, Satsuma: Theater in 2, York: Water Mill in 1, Boston: Shrine in 1.

All these are noted because all are changes. I left one build alone – San Fran’s library.

All but one of the above were building military, most Bedouin Riders, which lack one hp compared to the same price Cavalry. We already have 16 units fortified in Quito (primed to strike the dangerous Incans, I gather?) and another 9 lonely in San Francisco, preventing a flip I guess. I reinforce a bit, with help of railnet. As there is no pressing military exigency, our towns will acquire significant productive capacity over the next ten.

Wake some workers railing a random mountain outside any city’s limits and give foodmaxed New Moscow a mine to speed his factory build. The rest go to help one of their splayed about brothers finish his job to help form a crew.

1110AD: Yak: Mill->Shrine, York: Water->Wind, Boston:Shrine->Harbor, Quito: Laborer->Laborer, St. Pete: Arena->Museum (will short-rush), Pucara: Port->Laborer, Minsk: Laborer->Sewer (with a fishery, Minsk will be a monster), Odessa: Park->Labor, Tblisi: Harbor->Park (got pollution this turn).

Crazy Horse has Flight already. I could swear we had more workers than this last time I had the game. Did a bunch get captured?

IBT: Aztecs land HA on mountain next to Satsuma

1120AD: Satsuma: Theater->Shrine, St. Pete: Museum->CH (prereq for prison), various other builds – all will be non-military for this turn-set, as it looks that the previous was all mil. Easily handle HA.

1130AD: St. Pete: CH->Prison (short-rush), Tblisi Park completes. Start on Coal Plant for Smith’s.

The only wonder currently under construction is Edison’s in Bear Butte. We get Realpolitik, go for tanks in 3. Make peace with pathetic Aztecs.

1140AD: St. Pete: Prison-> (shoot, Wonderland still 8 turns, lab), Tblisi now has three nice new mined forests. Appleseed crew head to former Incan lands to get some production going there. Send another crew to prepare London for Winter Palace,

1150AD: St. Pete: Lab->School (will wait for Steel Foundry to build big wonders, need to be ready for LoN, as well)

1160AD: Tanks->Total War (in 3), St. Pete: School->Nat. Gallery in 3, Tblisi: sneaking in Fishery to get another forest toward Smith’s

1180AD: Tblisi gets Smith’s in 8

1190AD: St. Pete: National Gallery->LoN in 2 (need to complete, as will be obsolete in 3), Tblisi down to 6 turns to Smith's as last forest completes. That will be 15 total, from the time I was given the game, vs. 13 if I had started it right off. Sorry for my tardiness! :mischief:

1200AD: I’ll leave this turn to you, LK. Feel like I’ve been constrained to just building the basics this turnset, as they’ve obviously been neglected. By basics I mean production boosters and corruption reducers, growth enablers and cheapie other builds. Some cities are just about set to crank tanks (Chicago may get to two turn tanks with a hosptial, or it would have started with units already.) Others should be close to building the prereq improvements for St. Pete. Could Minsk use the IP? I’ve held the tank tech, so our econ isn’t the best yet. Smith’s will help in 5.

Signed up:
Bezhukov
LKendter (currently playing)
Romeothemonk (on deck)
Zavior

Note: Tblisi built a Coal Plant after the Park and before the Fishery. Pics:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ZAV1-1200AD.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/EasternFront.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Zav::sworker.JPG

Looks good Bez. It looks like my method of Persuasion has worked on recruiting a convert.
Remember bez, I am by nature a scientist, so Science is good.
Note for Zavior: (constructive criticism, I liked your turnset. :) )
Bedioun raiders have 1 fewer hit point and 1 less attack point than cavalry. The benefit of the raiders is that they ignore desert movement penalties. I do not think we have much Desert terrain around, so I would normally build cavalry. Anyway I will probably use some of Zaviors military to take on someone, when I get a chance.

I guess I build so much industry because I'm an Industrial Engineer. With science as needed. ;)

I guess it works out OK, with all Zav's military coming into play on LK and Romeo's turnsets, but I'm not sure there are any more military objectives left in this game. I'd like to see how early of a date we can get on 25K. Zav, it's fine to build military, but 10-turn Bedouins in our weak outlying towns could be 4-turn Beds with just a little development...

Hmm, why did I order that RR to be built there? :blush:

Not my brightest moments I guess.

Sorry to embarass you - should have included a :lol:, as I got a chuckle out of it. I'm not sure if these things are due to carelessness or inexperience, so perhaps I should be more careful with my tone.

One possible war objective at this point would be the acquisition of a work force that does not requrie massive amounts of unit support, if you get my drift, Romeo...

;)

Find a civ with workers in their cities you say. Hmm. I think I might be able to do that.

Sorry to embarass you - should have included a :lol:, as I got a chuckle out of it. I'm not sure if these things are due to carelessness or inexperience, so perhaps I should be more careful with my tone.

One possible war objective at this point would be the acquisition of a work force that does not requrie massive amounts of unit support, if you get my drift, Romeo...

;)

Oh well, I'm purely in learning mode here. If you find out such useless events, please mention them to me.

I haven't played civ3 for even half year
yet I think. I've found out that SG's are best method of learning things here :)

I've found out that SG's are best method of learning things here :)
Very True. I was helped out by some of the truely greats that took pity on me: Charis, Kylearean, Arathron, T-Hawk, T_McC, LK, etc...
Most of the learning was me lurking in their games, and then getting to play 1 or 2 RBCiv games with them.
I consider anyone with LK's longevity truely great. I am more than willing to help anyone learn the game, and my general style. My actual style is too eclectic to teach, but hey it is what makes me me. Just do not take any comments too hard, we are all trying to be constructive.

@Bezhukov - can you please complete this turn when you hand it over. This isn't the first time I have been stuck finishing up all the worker actions. I should receive the game with nothing to do but review it.

1200 AD
I want the gap between San Francisco and the rest of our empire closed. I don't want to wait 39 turns for a border expansion. I switch it to a shrine.

We don't have the cash to support large deficit spending. I scale back science to get the cash flow positive.
(IT) Inca and America sign a peace treaty.
Capturing Boston turns out to we a waste as it flips back to the Iroquois. I haven't seen that remote flip in a while. :(

The next target is Wonderland. We are starting to run out of culture to build. I had better get 5 banks built. ;)


1230 AD
(IT) We have completed enough hospitals to built Battlefield Medicine. It is only 1 CPT, but at least we have another wonder to build.


1240 AD
(IT) Well it is a bit late, but Smith's is finally ours. :dance:


1255 AD
(IT) America and Japan sign a peace treaty.
We now have the right to build the Central Bank. :D


1265 AD
(IT) Aztecs and Japan sign peace.
We have completed the 6-culture point Wonderland. Next up is the Central Bank to give our economy a boast.


1270 AD
(IT) We can now build Wall Street.

==========================

Summary:
We still aren't utilizing our trait fully. I found several cities still lacking the maintenance free and cheap to build Russian Wiseman. These are good for a 50% science boast.

Minsk is building the Statue of Liberty for a boast in income. After that it should build International Port. Minsk will be an awesome city for revenue and shields at that point.

Signed up:
Bezhukov
LKendter
Romeothemonk (currently playing)
Zavior (on deck)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ZAV1-1275AD.zip

I see it and will ponder what to do tomorrow morning. Input is welcome. Are we still at war with the Iro?? I sense Boston becoming a little more level in the near future.

:lol:

Yes, LK, I usually do play my last turn, but considering how much fun I had with the game I was given, I figured I'd leave some more to you. Also to let you use your own development style with the workers. Thought it was clear that NO moves had been taken, so it was all you.

IHT: Thanks for the troops. Decide to Eliminate America before Reagan can destroy our evil empire. Cancel that, it has to wait till next turn, as I cancel the ROP this turn. The Iro are told to move it or lose it, and they want to lose it. Bummer for them. The Sioux join the party for incense wine and 100 gold. Misclick hit end turn, so I get to try it again. Kill 2 Threnchers and 1 cav with an elite, lose a raider to a cav, kill cav with raider (4-1).
IBT: Renegotiate deal with Crazy horse. Sioux and Iros kill each other.
Turn 1: Declare on Lincoln. Kill 5 units in Washington, capture it. Lose an elite cuirasser when I was stretching for an MGL. (9-2). Kill an Iro cav and Army by Washington. (11-2). Lose a bedioun raider razing Atlanta, and get no slaves. Hmm. Due to the desert raiders were the only thing that could attack. (13-3). Lose a cav, but kill a rifle and cav to capture New York, and the voyage of discovery. (15-4). Lose 2 cavs assualting Boston as I realize I was attacking Machine gunners. Whoops. (15-6). Research set to Radio.
Turn 2: Move and position and heal. St. Pete's Central bank to wall street.
Turn 3: Get our furs and spices back from Japan for electricity. Recapture Boston, killing 2 Machine gunners and an amphibious infantry. (18-6).
Turn 4: Rebuilding shrines, temples, etc. Trying to get WLTKD everywhere. Unionization gets espionage and 86 gpt from the Sioux. They also had flight which was untouchable.
Turn 5: Wall street to brokerage firm, get radio, start Military Tradidition, goal of Arc de triumph. Also building lots of science buildings around.
Turn 6: Start the Arc de Triumphe in St Petes. Kill Iro cav (19-6).
Turn 7: Aztecs declare on Japanese.
Turn 8: More worker stuff.
Turn 9: MOre worker stuff
Turn 10: We build the Arc de Triumph. The IA is a prebuild for the Steel foundry. We should swap st petes to it when commie comes in. Chicago starts Edison's as 2 free techs is nice. Actually I had miscounted and started 4 meusuems, and swpaaing to anything else would lose shields. Arrange all our troops to prevent flips, upgrade them all, or disband pikes.
Not much going on here. As soon as the steel foundry is finished, we should be able to build small wonders in 3 turns in St Pete's. It almost breaks my heart, but we shouldn't need anymore offensive wars, and should only play defense. In 10 turns we should make peace with the Iro, and play semi-passive or something.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/zavior1325.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ZAV1-1325AD.SAV

Signed up:
Bezhukov (on deck)
LKendter
Romeothemonk
Zavior (currently playing)

Turn1: Switch St. Petes to National Library with no shield loss.
Turn2: Communism comes in. Start steel foundry, in 5. Research to motion pictures, in 3.
Turn3: Woerker management.
Turn4: Quiet turn, not much worker management.
Turn5: Motion pictures comes in. Start on Guerilla warfare. Hmm, funny. We can get flight in 1. I'll go for it :D
Turn6: Set research to aviation. In 3.
Turn7: Steel Foundry comes in, start national museum.
Turn8: Railroading
Turn9: Something comes in, 2 free techs. Quatum physics in 2, after that we are in modern ages.
Turn10: Switch St. Petes to hollywood. In 5. Kill some Iroquois troops. We can keep leaderhunting with them, easily. I would do that.

Signed up:
Bezhukov (currently playing)
LKendter (on deck)
Romeothemonk
Zavior

No. I didn't forget it. I have to ask, LK, when do you sleep, or do you sleep at all? Man, you're always here :crazyeye:

Well, I guess LK is our new official roster-poster-officer.

Hey Zavior, I was building a settler out of Boston to rebuild on Atlanta's ruins. I didn't see any mention of settlers or foinding cities in your turn log. What happened there. I should have been more clear. Also I think I forgot to mention that I got Lady Liberty in Minsk on My turns and started the International Port, which should have finished in Zaviors turns. I would build the spirit of st Louis ASAP in St. Petes. I would not let Hollywood finish. Minsk will be a fine infra city and all our towns should get as many science buildings as they can. We should really abuse our traits now.

I did find city on the ruins of something, International port did finish.
I tried to build as many sci buildings as I could, with also trying to get WLTDK.

I did find city on the ruins of something, International port did finish.
The founding of a city is a event that should be included in future turn logs.

SoL and IP in Minsk - that city has to have absurd revenue now. ;)

Zavior, do you know how to post screenshots of the game? As a host, they are really nice to put in, and they also let the rest of us know what is happening.
Step 1: Get latest version of Freeware Irfanview. A Download site http://www.irfanview.com/main_download_engl.htm
Step 2: Install said Program
Step 3: When in the game, hit printscreen on a standard windows keyboard.
Step 4: Open Irfanview, hit control-v (for paste)
Step 5: Go to image resize and resize the picture to 800x600 and then save it as a JPEG.
Step 6: Use the upload file command at the bottom of the pages on the civfanatics forum.
Step 7: Create the Image tags where you want the picture to go in your post. Image tags are " " without the quote marks.
Step 8: View the uploads in the server, and select yours, it should be right at the top. Right click and copy the shortcut.
Step 9: Then control-v (or paste) the shortcut inbetween the Image tags, and viola, instant screenshot.
Repeat as many times as necessary.

I do know, and I sometimes(very rarely) do it. I guess I'm just too lazy.
But, screenies of what? There weren't any major events. Sure, I can provide them in future reports, if there is need.

I would build the spirit of st Louis ASAP in St. Petes. I would not let Hollywood finish.
We are trying for 25K and Hollywood is a huge *8* CPT. The Spirit does help revenue, but why give up a huge boast in culture?

I say get them both. I may pick on someone in an attempt to leader fish - Steel Foundry would have been good to do this way...

Got the game, will play Sunday.

I cannot think of anyone that would be good to leaderfish on. We should make peace with the Iro, and maybe go to war with the Sioux. They are the only ones that are a "real" threat at this point, as the Iro are fairly gassed.

Pre-flight: Wow – 143 cpt in St. Pete. Pretty cool! I’m really not happy with what our workers are up to. All the former Inca lands have way too much food – they need forests planted! Forests can be mined and railed in RandR. We also have lots of marsh that needs cleared. Railing mountains for one measly shield is low priority! Workers are better bunched, in some places, in others, we’ve got them railing jungle that would be better cleared – to allow nearby mountains to be worked. Order up three Police Stations to allow Echelon to be built – not that we have much corruption!

I stir up a little trouble. We declare on Aztecs, then ally Iros against them to break the embargo they had on us, then trade gold to Hiawatha for some luxes.

Smolensk building one-turn Partisans for sentry duty in some empty cities (later adjusted to two-turn MG's).

1380: We are now in the Modern Age! We get Radar for free tech, set to Electronics (in2!) We have one source of uranium, near Sevastopol. Another in Japanese territory could be easily stolen if necessary. Fix St. Pete’s food (planting forest and irrigating plains), goes from 383 to 396 spt. Clean up pollution, adjust Vlad and Chicago to allow Chicago to work it’s mountains. Crazy Horse pays us 48gpt for horses. :crazyeye: True to his name!

1385: Getting Quito, Paracas forested. Give a water tile from Tblisi to Minsk (IP)

1390: Electronics-Mass Media (toward Legalized Gambling, and Las Vegas – 5 culture, colossus effect), Tblisi building Hoover in 12

1395: Chicago building Echelon in 14. Minsk gets five forests, and still has three extra food!

1400: St. Pete: Hollywood->National History Museum, Minsk: Hospital->Spirit of St. Louis in 7 (making 254 spt), Former Inca lands fully developed – Quito stays at 15 pop, Pucara and Paracas building Sewers to work surrounding waters.

1405: Japan is fighting Sioux – we give him RoP to help get troops to the front. Battle of Tecnochitlan: our artillery redlines the two pikes defenders. No leaders, but we now control the Slave Trade! Nothing can stop us now! Also Magellan's, for what that's worth.

1410: Sell Sioux Total War for 215 gpt, cleaning him out. If we want, we could ship some luxes to Japan and Iros to help their econ, so they can pay us more gpt.

1415: We have destroyed the solid Aztecs. Sorry, no leaders, but we do get silver (another lux). St. Pete's: Nat History->Nat Sports League

1420: Legalized Gambling->Civil Rights (in 2), switched St. Pete's to Casino in 1

1425: St. Pete's: Casino->National Sports League (pre-build for Las Vegas), found Krasomething, west of New York, would like to move New York north to get supercow worked.

I only got 4 leader chances out of war with Aztecs. Only civ without current deals is Inca – taking them on could free up some land for Quito, or could just wait and take on Sioux.

I've upgraded many foreign workers to Engineers, but left most natives as laborers, as these will eventually be joined to cities. Already joined some to Sevastopol, Vlad, and London to optimize production.

Soc Dem would be a great government for us, but I'd rather not lose the culture (over 1000) in St. Pete during anarchy, so we can stay in Fed Repub and build conglomerate in St. Pete.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Tenoch.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Aztecgone.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/StPete.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Zav1-1425AD.JPG

It will take 70~ turns to hit the 25k mark. This will improve as we build more culture.

urgh, something weird.

Signed up:
Bezhukov
LKendter (currently playing)
Romeothemonk (on deck)
Zavior

Signed up:
Bezhukov (on deck)
LKendter
Romeothemonk
Zavior (Currently playing)

--
Got it, will play at morning.


:confused: :confused:
Bezhukov just played, and I should be up.

Yes, I screwed it up. Atleast I can blame my illness! :crazyeye:
Hmmm, maybe I should do something constructive like rest or something.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ZAV1-1475AD.zip

1425 AD
(IT) Our economy takes a hit as Civil Liberties caused East India Company to go obsolete.
The Sioux complete Emancipation Proclamation.


1445 AD
(IT) We officially complete Hoovers. It is time to sell of the coal plants.


1455 AD
(IT) We complete Las Vegas. The next building coming up is an Opera House for 2 culture points.


1460 AD
(IT) The next piece of culture is the Multi-Cultural Center.


1465 AD
(IT) Chicago completes Echelon for the free police stations.


1470 AD
(IT) Tbilisi completes the Pentagon.
The Sioux complete Einstein's Lab. That ends my debated on building it. Next up will be the National Sports League. When that is done the UN will be available.


==========================

Summary:
At the most 56 turns are left to 25K. That is excluding new buildings and any leftover doubling.

Signed up:
Bezhukov
LKendter
Romeothemonk (currently playing)
Zavior (on deck)

I see it. It may take a while to get to it though.

Civil Liberties was researched for Civil Rights Movement wonder. Check it out. Small note: Multi-culti gives 3 cpt, vs. two for Opera House. Great Opera (plastics) is another high culture wonder.

This looks like tomorrow evening or Wed morning at the earliest, same as all other non-LK88 games. Those turns were brutal.

Nice show in LK88, Romeo!

Too bad about the 8 armies though. Now LK will be scarred for life!

:lol:

That was one hell of a flip :lol:

IHT: I see we lack the conglomerate and the Empire state, swap builds to rectify this problem. Swap research to Pesticides, as St, Petes has better culture and stuff to play.
Turn 1: Hmm Builder turns, building lots of free mainenance stuff.
Turn 2: More of the same, upgrade some laborers.
Turn 3: Angling for rocketry now. Tows would be good. Can't build a modern farm in St. Pete as we don't have a granary. The Conglomerate allows us to do 2 turn research in the black.
Turn 4: Terraforming our lands.
Turn 5: Ditto. We get advanced flight.
Turn 6: The Sioux show up with amphibious war. Just building random builder stuff to increase gold, (if smith pays for it), or science.
Turn 7: Set research to satalites. We now have some Tow's. Our defense should be pretty secure.
Turn 8: I love commerce multipliers in the best city. Start St. Pete on a granary so it can get a modern farm.
Turn 9: Short rush modern farm
Turn 10: More builder turns. Set St. Petes on National sports league.
Plastics is due in 1. I know you all wanted the U.N. but I couldn't just let 2 commerce +1 wonders sneak by me. Plus the prereqs are free with Smiths, and helps our economy. There are some tech trades that are availible, but I didn't want to lock in any deals. Our host has free reign to whip up on anyone, if he so chooses.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/zav1stpete.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/zav1510.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ZAV1-1525AD.SAV

Let's try for Great Opera House (8 culture per turn as I recall). It requires the plastics tech and 3 performing arts centers. I'd like to see how early a 25k date we can get.

Wow, how'd we get to 442 spt? Did you build the Civil Rights Movement? Too bad we lost that Elephant, or we'd be pushing 500 spt. I've only gotten that once - on an IP city with a bunch of mountains.

Signed up:
Bezhukov (on deck)
LKendter
Romeothemonk
Zavior (currently playing)

Wow, how'd we get to 442 spt? Did you build the Civil Rights Movement? Too bad we lost that Elephant, or we'd be pushing 500 spt. I've only gotten that once - on an IP city with a bunch of mountains.
Yeah, I am sorry that I forgot to mention that we built the Civil rights thingie in Minsk, where Lk had started it. Minsk is about at 320 spt, and should probably start building stuff like battlefield medicine and such.
I think the great opera house is the cheesiest wonder ever. 3 of the worthless opera houses and the great house had nothing other than mass culture.

Minsk is about at 320 spt, and should probably start building stuff like battlefield medicine and such.

I would be carefully using up mediocare small wonders in Minsk. If nothing else they make good placeholders for St. Petersburg.

The worst part is that it doesn't require Opera Houses, it requires Performing Arts Centers, which cost even more than OH's. I think they were running out of ideas at this point - perhaps we could assist the designers there?

:)

BTW, Bat Med is just about useless to us. Better to build most expensive unit you can get in one turn, then disband it in a remote city to help along builds there.

IHT: Press enter.
Turn1: Several cities start Art centers.
IBT: Nothing.

Turn2: Almost all of our terrain is already terraformed, no actions needed.
IBT: National Sports League finishes.

Turn3: Clean up pollution. Quick turns. Ecology in 1.
IBT: Ecology comes in, start on space flight. St petes starts wind farm.

Turn4: uhhmm.. WHAT?! We have city with NO corruption.. Its not even first ring city :eek:

Turn5: ---
IBT: Space flight in, start on laser, in 2. St petes: winf farm ->UN, in 7.
Iros start UN. Trade fission and start UN.

Turn6: Laser in 1.
IBT: Laser in, start robotics in 2.

Turn7: Nothing worth marking

Turn8: Robotics in, start computer networking in 2as there is nothing better to research

Turn9: Blaarghsahsda.
IBT: Comp netw. -> data encryption

Turn10(12?): this is hilarious. We complete UN. I'm way too tired. sorry.
St petes -> Great opera house

i shouldn't have played played. But, I want to get this ended somehere near futurre.
Sorry. I'll try no to do this anymore.
Even keeping eyes open hurts..

Signed up:
Bezhukov (currently playing)
LKendter (on deck)
Romeothemonk
Zavior

Got it. Will play tonight. I'll try to help put our host out of his misery.

;)

Pre-flight: All work is done, except New Moscow and Nottingham have way too much food, and the former Aztecs lands are unconnected to the railnet, let alone developed. San Fran needs a sewer and fishery, etc. Manufacturing Plant won’t help St. Pete get Opera House faster, so leave it there in 5. Trade Psych to Japan for a couple luxes. We’ve got an unconnected sugar within our borders. We lack sugar, BTW.

IBT: pollution at Tblisi

1595: Data Encryption->Jet Propulsion (one turn!) Rush a couple fisheries.

IBT: Nada

1600AD: rush some more fisheries, Jet->Synthetic Fibers (in 2, making 900gpt)

1605AD: Railnet completed.

1610AD: Build some one turn universities (basically boosting production unless one-turn builds available), Intel agency in 4 ordered in Tblisi, Sell Electronics to Crazy Horse for 2570 + 245 gpt, trade Electronics and some change to Hiawatha for Naval Aviation, Synth Fibers->Microchip

IBT: Crazy Horse tries to steal tech, we catch him. We are not pleased. :lol:

1615AD: Great Opera House completes. St. Pete now making 194 cpt. Go for Performing Arts Center. We should hit the 200 cpt mark. Short-rushing some factories to kick in HydroPlant bonus. This is pricey.

1620AD: Microchip->Genetics (to uncover super-food)

1625AD: St. Pete: Performing Arts-> Man Plant (in 3, will shortrush to get the needed 60 extra shields)

1630AD: Genetics->Super-Sonic Flight (toward Integrated Defense – not sure how worried we need to be about nukes, but might as well.) New York gets a mega-wheat (+10food). Tenoch is sitting on mega-cattle. Move could move it – but then we’d have to give up the Slave Trade! No dice! :p

1635AD: St. Pete’s breaks the 500 spt barrier. If only that phant hadn’t depleted! Building one-turn Research Lab to enable Seti (3 culture). Minsk is building Human Genome (+25 production, all cities).

1640AD: Lab->Seti in St. Pete. Super-Sonic->Advanced Composites

1650AD: Advanced Composites->Superconductor (can change if you like). Washington is almost at max pop, so can have it’s lands adjusted. San Fran could probably get another forest. Nottingham could get a forest instead of mined plains to even off his pop. Some cities were on max production to get factories built, can MM to maximize production + growth. We have several cities that can benefit from Cure for Cancer, so I’ve got it started, along with several other wonders. With smart short-rushing and growth, we should have all the newer cities getting one or two turn sci and tax improvements soon.

We are now at a cool 200 culture per turn in St. Pete, so should only be 16/17 turns left in the game. :thumbsup:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/Zav1-1650AD.JPG

Look at the culture buildings in this shot alone! Showing off the sci here (that's 2300 beakers) Not currently running 100% sci. We can get one-turn research, if needed.

Signed up:
Bezhukov
LKendter (currently playing my final turn)
Romeothemonk (on deck)
Zavior

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/ZAV1-1705AD.zip


1670 AD
(IT) St. Petersburg completes the SETI program. Like we really need another science boaster.
I decide to build the space program next.


1675 AD
(IT) Human Genome project is completed in Minsk. Like we really need another production boaster.
Odessa completes the Atomic Weapons test. Somehow, I doubt we will toss any nukes.


1690 AD
(IT) St. Petersburg completes the Space program. We are running out of options, but who cares. The Internet is queued up next.


1695 AD
I have to see if T34 and T90 armies are as lethal as I suspect. I declare war on Japan. I just want to obliterate them.
Philadelphia, Teotihuacan, Texcoco, Tlaxcala, Kagoshima, and Nara are toasted.
I get a leader from an elite cavalry that forms another army.
I decide to have fun and sacrifice all the workers as that may end the game a turn or two earlier.

St. Petersburg switches to the War Memorial.

(IT) Oh no - The Inca and Japan embargo us.


1700 AD
Edo, and Tokyo are razed.
(IT) I go back to building the Internet.


1705 AD
Kyoto is razed. Japan will only live because we will hit 25K during the IT.

How is this for a few wonders?
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/LAK-643.jpg

Not too shabby Lee. Can we get a final shot of St. Pete in it's glory at max science?
Thanks for letting me jump in on this one late, I really enjoyed the game. I like the myriad options of RaR, and of course the warring. I will be playing RaR almost exclusively now, unless a few things change.
(Like LK sets up a Succesion Game of the Month Team and lets me play on it.)

I will be playing RaR almost exclusively now, unless a few things change.
Keep you eyes on the LK series. RaR will continue to show up until Civ4 comes out. Right now I need to end more before starting another. I join the recent games already counting LK88 and ZAV1 as over.

It was pretty easy game, wasn't it?
AI's were pretty pathethic all the way.

It was pretty easy game, wasn't it?
AI's were pretty pathethic all the way.
Well I am going to say that it wasn't so much the patheticness of the AI, as the quality of the humans.
We had a very solid starting location, and you guys really took advantage of that. I am really wanting to see what we can do with a "normal" start (No food boni).

Get a single city stuck at size 2 with no possibility to grow? :lol:

MY AWE Pangaea game. You're all invited to join. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=2614263#post2614263).

Yeah, a "normal" start (non-AGR civ, no food bonus) is an entirely different game. LK88 would have given you a general feel for that. You can still come back, but its uphill for a while. I won a solo on Diety as England where I had two cities and some of the AI already had eight.

I'd like to take a stab at RandR Sid. Anyone up for it? Currently have a solo going where I have tech parity and 3000 gold in the bank near end of AA. Can be done.

I think the "second-city" strategy proved it's worth here for 25K runs. Would have been even better had we been pursuing it from the start (would have built settler before WH in Moscow, and thus founded St. Pete much earlier).

Well Bez, if you wait 1-2 weeks I may be up for it. I really like the Native American civs in RaR, they almost make me wonder how they lost in RL. One thing about RaR, is if you get early contacts and elephants, there should be nothing can stop you short of a brain aneurysm. I would like Sid to be on 80% water Archi, or on 70% pangea. Just some thoughts.

Yeah - the 80% arch with a seafaring civ works well - I'm currently playing England in my solo.

The Malinese would work well on 70% pangea, making sure your opponents are not AGR or MIL. COM really helps on Sid, where corruption bites early. Native Americans are good too, and EXP generally helps on panagea, though less on Sid, I imagine.

Given Sid starting units and production, not sure how much even Elephants would help early. Getting the economic upper hand and draining the AI dry seems a more promising approach.

Given Sid starting units and production, not sure how much even Elephants would help early. Getting the economic upper hand and draining the AI dry seems a more promising approach.
I assume this will always be a difference of opinions between us. I like to crush my enemies, drive them before me and hear the lamentations of their women. You like to get them in hock up to their ears, and hear the lamentations as you foreclose on their empire. :p
Different methods, and I am not sure which is most effective.
If you have Sid, raging barbs, pangea, all the starting units in the world will not matter after about 65 turns. That would be how I would play on DocTs setting. :lol:

"I assume this will always be a difference of opinions between us. I like to crush my enemies, drive them before me and hear the lamentations of their women. You like to get them in hock up to their ears, and hear the lamentations as you foreclose on their empire."

I'm just saying on the higher levels, the AI can outshield you much more easily than it can outcommerce you. War is about shields, and the AI gets a big advantage over you here, whereas each tile produces the same amount of commerce for both human and AI. Yes, AI commerce goes further in both research and unit support, but to get AI shields into your coffers, you have to overcome some pretty serious armed resistance, then figure out how to get those shields uncorrupted. To get AI commerce into your coffers requires nothing more than some slick wheeling and dealing.

;)

"Sid, raging barbs, pangea"

Yikes!

:help:

This would require more than a bit of luck to pull off. Are you suggesting that the barbs would slaughter all the extra AI units? Better hope you don't start next to Aztecs! :eek:

"I assume this will always be a difference of opinions between us. I like to crush my enemies, drive them before me and hear the lamentations of their women. You like to get them in hock up to their ears, and hear the lamentations as you foreclose on their empire."

The fact that both of these approaches are effective in RandR has more to do with AI adjustment difficulties than with the relative merits of the strategies, I suspect...

Well back to Zav1. I think this game also is starting to prove a RaR theory of mine. A city with a camel on flood plains adding bonus food and shields will usually be a killer.

Yeah, with the city on a hill, you get the magic four shields right away even in despo. A tile that produces 2 shields and 4 food in despo is a little unfair. Makes expansionist more valuable, as you can see the Camels right away.