Discussion was here. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=111915&page=2)


Article ?. All irreversible game actions must progress during a scheduled
gameplay session while reversible game actions (i.e. build queues) that
adhere to legal instructions can be prepared offline before
the scheduled turnset.
1. A turnchat instruction thread (TCIT) must be created at
least 3 days before the scheduled turnchat.
a. All official instructions must be posted in the current
turnchat instruction thread. Instructions must be clear
and defined.
b. Officials must post their instructions at least one hour
before the Turnset. However, offcials may make changes
to their instructions up to an hour before the chat, so long
as those changes are noted.
2. The Designated Player shall be charged with the creation
of a date and time for all gameplay sessions.
a. the DP must specify when scheduling the gameplay session(or
when posting the TCIT) whether it will be a public gameplay session
or be done offline.
b. Any citizen may create a confirmation poll if they disagree
with any particulars for a scheduled gameplay session. Any such
poll must run for at least 24 hours and be considered final
at the start of the scheduled turnset.


COL

"The instruction thread will be created by the President at least 3 days before the session is scheduled. The initial post should include the time and date of the session, the save to be used and note the style of the game play session.

The DP for each session must create a log of their actions that would enable a player to substantially recreate the actions during that session. This log, and a more descriptive summary of the session, must be posted upon the conclusion of the game play session. In addition, the save after all pre-turn instructions are carried out, the save after each 5th turn and the final save must be posted.

The DP may execute all reversible game actions (e.g. build queues) prior to the scheduled start so long as they provide a save that includes only those reversible actions.

Game play sessions will last a maximum of 10 turns. An extension of 1-3 turns is permissible to finish researching a tech or exiting an anarchy period so long as no other major activity during those turns takes place.

The DP may end the game play session at their will, or pass the save to another player."

I tried to take the concerns raised along with the viewpoint of the poll and get something that should work.

"The President will create a post in a Game Summary thread that will provide a link to the starting save for each session, the Instruction thread for that session and the ending save for that session."

No, 3 reasons:
1. "I tried to take the concerns raised along with the viewpoint of the poll and get something that should work. " what the heck is this? Copy and paste isnt always best CT
2. We shouldnt have confirmation polls for TC options, we cant tell a DP: "Sorry but American Idol will be on then, so you have to rescechule"
3. The CoL part isnt formatted, as stated in 1

2. We shouldnt have confirmation polls for TC options, we cant tell a DP: "Sorry but American Idol will be on then, so you have to rescechule"


I probably shouldn't do this, but the confirmation poll is there to force the play session to be online.

I probably shouldn't do this, but the confirmation poll is there to force the play session to be online.
which is another problem with it, but it could be used for my example above as well

Plus what is this:
"I tried to take the concerns raised along with the viewpoint of the poll and get something that should work. "
it is second from the bottom in the CoL
CT just copied and pasted statements in there

Voted no for a number of reasons.

1) I'm a nitpicking pain in the neck to whom the inconsistent language of the article is abhorrent. "Turnchat" or "turnset"? Pick one and stick with it.

2) The law presented here is a mess. If this were simply a "what do we want included in this law" poll then that would not bother me so much, but as a finished law to which we will have to refer for guidance I consider it unacceptable.

3) Confirmation poll section of article as presented here all but destroys the principle of DP's discretion over turnchat scheduling and related matters. It's not just a way around offline play sessions, it can also be used to prevent sessions occurring at times that do not suit the majority of citizens. I'm not talking about moving them to suit the television schedules, I'm talking about someone with a timetable in a similar vein to that of Shaitan being elected as president and subsequently prevented from playing more than once or twice within their term.

I share Eklektikos' concerns.

As for turnchats and turnsets, I tried to find all the 'turnsets' as I could. Also, legalese isn't my expertese, and even if I tried to make it legalese, certain conspiracy theorists would have a field day...

The phrase "game session" would have been sufficient ...

A nice proposed poll post would have helped, but alas ...

-- Ravensfire

2.b. is vague. What particulars? Be more specific, e.g. timing, preparation, discussion still occuring. Leaving it open to interpretation will lead to a mid-game crisis. And I've seen enough of them in my DG life.

NO

As for turnchats and turnsets, I tried to find all the 'turnsets' as I could. Also, legalese isn't my expertese, and even if I tried to make it legalese, certain conspiracy theorists would have a field day...
I'm not looking for legalese, I'm looking for consistency and clarity. A constitution that does not meet those two criteria is likely to be far more controversial than one that does.

Then tell me how that ruleset can be abused. I don't know how it can.

Then tell me how that ruleset can be abused. I don't know how it can.

The original proposed article carefully replaced turnchat with turnset and most of that has been un-done. The phrase "turnchat" should be rarely used as this will cause confusion in the case of an offline turnset or playsession.

As Ravensfire pointed out (both here and in the discussion thread) the term "play session" works better than both turnchat or turnset.

This looks like it might not pass as it is borderline right now. Either way, after the poll closes I will open a new discussion and propose a mock poll. Black Hole's concerns will not be addressed unless/until the discussion indicates wider support for his position.

Edit: to answer CT's question. The existing language can be abused by someone forcing public turnchats because that is the phrase used in the constitution. Reffering to an offline session as a turnchat is confusing at best.

The existing language can be abused by someone forcing public turnchats because that is the phrase used in the constitution. Reffering to an offline session as a turnchat is confusing at best.
Exactly. Use of the word "turnchat" in the wrong context within this article makes the constitutionality of offline play a debatable issue once again, a situation I believed we were trying to avoid.

Here's the result of about one minute's work replacing the inconsistent terms in the article with Ravensfire's suggestion.

Article ?. All irreversible game actions must progress during a scheduled
game session while reversible game actions (i.e. build queues) that
adhere to legal instructions can be prepared offline before
the scheduled game session.
1. A game session instruction thread (GSIT) must be created at
least 3 days before the scheduled game session.
a. All official instructions must be posted in the current
game session instruction thread. Instructions must be clear
and defined.
b. Officials must post their instructions at least one hour
before the game session. However, offcials may make changes
to their instructions up to an hour before the session, so long
as those changes are noted.
2. The Designated Player shall be charged with the creation
of a date and time for all game sessions.
a. the DP must specify when scheduling the game session (or
when posting the GSIT) whether it will be a public session
or be done offline.
b. Any citizen may create a confirmation poll if they disagree
with any particulars for a scheduled game session. Any such
poll must run for at least 24 hours and be considered final
at the start of the scheduled game session.

Note that I would still vote against my own revision of this article due to the confirmation poll clause.

And a similar cosmetic makeover for the CoL component:

1. The game session instruction thread will be created by the President at least 3 days before the game session is scheduled. The initial post should include the time and date of the session, the save to be used and note the style of the game session.

2. The DP for each session must create a log of their actions that would enable a player to substantially recreate the actions during that session. This log, and a more descriptive summary of the session, must be posted upon the conclusion of the game session. In addition, the save after all pre-turn instructions are carried out, the save after each 5th turn and the final save must be posted.

3. The DP may execute all reversible game actions (e.g. build queues) prior to the scheduled start so long as they provide a save that includes only those reversible actions.

4. Game sessions will last a maximum of 10 turns. An extension of 1-3 turns is permissible to finish researching a tech or exiting an anarchy period so long as no other major activity during those turns takes place.

5. The DP may end the game session at their will, or pass the save to another player."

6. The President will create a post in a Game Summary thread that will provide a link to the starting save, the instruction thread and ending save for each session that occurs during their term of office.

It's good to have you back, Ek. Jimmy Stewart and all. :D

Actually, you forgot one.....the title of this thread. :lol: In the name of objectivity, can we have a mod change this title?

Should this pass, I'll be posted a JR making sure that, for this article, the terms "turnchat" and "termset" essentially mean game play session, with no bias towards on-line or off-line play.

-- Ravensfire

I think we can all rest assured that there will be plenty of JR's flying around in the next term. :rolleyes:

Moderator, please shift my vote from Yes to No.

This will create a 14-13 No Majority.

I think we can all rest assured that there will be plenty of JR's flying around in the next term. :rolleyes:

Probably. Actually, if CT would just change turnchat to game session as needed in that article before posting, life would get a bit simpler.

Of course, nearly every ruleset has had a fair number of JR's in the first few terms. It's tradition! (that's a joke - laughing at that semi-witty remark is a good thing)

-- Ravensfire

Should this pass, I'll be posted a JR making sure that, for this article, the terms "turnchat" and "termset" essentially mean game play session, with no bias towards on-line or off-line play.

-- Ravensfire

Another option is to amend the constitution. (Assuming that is still constitutional, that is. :mischief: )

That's the better, but slower way. That JR would be to try to prevent anything until an amendment could get done.

Good point, donsig, I'm in a bit of a reactionary mode w/ work that's passing into here. 'Perciate the reminder.

-- Ravensfire

The original proposed article carefully replaced turnchat with turnset and most of that has been un-done. The phrase "turnchat" should be rarely used as this will cause confusion in the case of an offline turnset or playsession.

As Ravensfire pointed out (both here and in the discussion thread) the term "play session" works better than both turnchat or turnset.

This looks like it might not pass as it is borderline right now. Either way, after the poll closes I will open a new discussion and propose a mock poll. Black Hole's concerns will not be addressed unless/until the discussion indicates wider support for his position.

Edit: to answer CT's question. The existing language can be abused by someone forcing public turnchats because that is the phrase used in the constitution. Reffering to an offline session as a turnchat is confusing at best.

And that is why I'm not a lawyer. ;) To me, turnset and turnchat meant the same thing.

CT - would you pleaes edit the original post, or at least the final version to use some version of "gameplay session" in place of turnchat/turnset, and render this entire discussion moot?

-- Ravensfire