Just in case the alternative government structure holds its slim lead in the runoff with traditional, we need to finalize the offices so that elections can be held.

For reference, here are the relevant articles from the first draft found in Black_Hole's thread.

Article C. The government will consist of four layers of government. These layers of government are the Strategic layer, Tactical layer, Game Playing laye, and the Administrative layer.


Article D. The Strategic layer consists of the President, the Vice President,
and the Consuls. The Consuls, as listed below, are in tasked with
deciding on the broader picture of how $COUNTRY_NAME will operate.
The President leads the Strategic layer and controls/leads discussions
involving more than one Strategic Consul. The majority of the Strategic
layer's policy is based on discussions and polls.

1. President - Leads discussions crossing over multiple areas of different
Consuls. He/she will also decide on any strategic tasks not designated to
another consul in this constitution.

2. Vice President - Assistant to the President. He/she may take over the
President's tasks when the President is absent. If the President should be
removed from office for any reason the Vice President will then take the position
of President and appoint a Vice President. The Vice President must be approved
by a majority of the consuls.

3. Consul for Domestic Policy - Oversees long term settlement, long term work movements, and
long term build queues goals(not specific goals). In charge of government switches.
4. Consul for External Policy - Oversees long term planning of policy regarding other nations.
This includes military plans and foreign affairs.

5. Consul for Cultural Policy - Monitors culture. Pushes for culture improvements.
Fits science and religous improvements into the big picture.

6. Consul for Resources and Technology Policy - Decides on long term tech queues
and long term resource policies.


Article E. The Tactical layer consists of the the officials in charge of micromanagement of
the game, within the boundaries of the Strategic layer's policy. The Tactical layer
is not required to receive instructions from the people as long as their policy
is within that of the Strategic layer's. The Tactical layer is consisted of the officials
below.

1. Commander of Armed Forces - Micromanages the military operations against
foreign countries.

2. Director of Commerce - Decides on foreign affairs and trading. Sets exact tech queue.
Adjusts slider and approves/denies requests from governors regarding rushes(in a government
requiring gold to rush).

3. Director of Infrastructure - Controls the worker actions. Reviews requests from governors about worker requests and accepts/denies these.

4. Director of Expansion - Decides on where to settle with settlers.

5. Governors - Manages citizens in cities under his/her control and the build queues.


Article F. The Administrative layer consists of officials not directly related to the gameplay of the game.
The Chief Justice, Judge Advocate, and Public defender make up the court. They are tasked with
upholding, protecting, and clarifying the constitution and the code of laws. Court procedures
may be made by any court by having two out of the three justices agreeing. The Court procedures
must comply with the constitution and code of laws. The Court procedures can be treated as
a set of laws below the Code of Laws.

1. Chief Justice - Organizes and heads the affairs and discussions of the court.

2. Judge Advocate - Prosecutes Citizen Complaints if the Citizen Complaint is filed anonymously
or the accuser wishes to have the Judge Advocate prosecute. He/she ensures CCs are following
constitution, code of laws, and court procedures guidelines.

3. Public Defender - Acts as Chief Attorney for the accused, unless the accused wishes otherwise.
Ensures the accused understands his/her rights and the accusation.

4. Chief Elections Official - Heads the affairs of the Election Office. Ensures the election cycle
is followed correctly.

5. Assistant Elections Official - Assists the Chief Election Official. Takes place of Chief Election Official
if the Chief Elections Official is removed for any reason.

6. City Naming Official - Ensures that cities are named correctly according to the law. May post a list
of the names of cities, in which to be used in the Turn Chat Instuction thread. Note that the Vice President
will oversee this office if there is no official for any reason.

7. Chief Polling Standards Official - Advises poll creators on errors/suggestions on the poll. May create
guidelines for prefered polling. Note that the Judge Advocate will oversee this office if both members
(Chief and Assistant Polling Standards Official) are vacant.

8. Assistant Polling Standards Official - Assists Chief Polling Standards Official. May take the place of the Chief
Polling Standards Official.

Article G. The designated players are the officials which play the gamesave. There are three of these officials who will
alternate playing. A designated player may only give up the game play to another designated player.
A designated player may also opt out of playing and then choose another designated player to play for him.


The next post will contain a revised version of these draft articles, taking into account the results of polls and discussions since that time, and a mock approval poll. Discussion will then be open for at least 24 hours. Once there are no more significant constructive comments, the language will be posted for an approval poll, conditional on the results of the government type runoff, so that nomination and election threads can be opened accordingly.

Reserved for edited draft and mock poll.

sorry for the crappy articles everyone, they were only intended as an example...
But the alternate government is making lead(13-7) so we best get working
That migth also be a little too many administrative offices... Im not shur...

Also the option for 3 elected officials to play the game lost in polls, so we need to change that.

I meant to put in the edits last night, but it just got too late :( Hopefully tonight will work.

I meant to put in the edits last night, but it just got too late :( Hopefully tonight will work.
nominations are tonight tho....
so do these offices (not descriptions, just names) look good to everyone?

City and unit naming should be a Presidential legal responsibility, and mishandling this responsibility should cause a presidential CC/PI. No legal vacuum on city naming, or we will see more hell.

For Nominations use:
These are the elected offices:

President
Consul for Domestic Policy
Consul for Culture Policy
Consul for Resources and Technology Policy
Consul for External Policy
Commander of Armed Forces
Director of Commerce
Director of Infrastructure
Director of Expansion
Governor of Province #1
Chief Justice
Judge Advocate
Public Defender

I'd suggest changing 'Commander of Armed Forces' to 'Director of Armed Forces' for continuity's sake if it wasn't already too late, but otherwise, sounds good.

I'd suggest changing 'Commander of Armed Forces' to 'Director of Armed Forces' for continuity's sake if it wasn't already too late, but otherwise, sounds good.
yeh that would make it simpler

this should be upped in priority... I am not too good with the wording of offices...

Try "Cultural Policy" and "Resource and Technological Policy" to keep the word form similar between offices.

Oversees long term planning of policy regarding other nations.
This includes military plans and foreign affairs.

what are their powers, who says "sign treaty" or "declare war"....... does this mean the External console could post these instuctions "Declare war on Aztecs. Move warrior by the hill and take city, .................................................. .. Make Peace" this seems like alot of power.

The External Consul would set the general policies about Strategic goals including conditions on when we should goto war and conditions to meet to get out of wars. They will also set targets for Military production. When I say the External Consul "will" do something, I really mean that they will lead discussions and gather concensus....

The Directors and Governors will take the Strategic guidence from the various Consuls and determine what to do with it.

The Commander of the Armed forces will actually do the day to day troop movements. Primarily follows Strategic Plans from External Consul. Some other Consul's plans also matter: Domestic: Settler Escort and/or Transport and MPs; Resouce and Technology: Possible military actions to protect, obtain, or pillage resources; Culture: Flip reduction garrisons.

The Director of Commerce will handle treaties, including declaring war and settling for peace. They will also follow Strategic guidance from many areas.

The various Governors will take do build queues to meet unit targets. They will also reconcile the Strategic guidance from all areas when setting build queues.

*bump*, we need to get work done on this

Article C. The government will consist of four layers of government. These layers of government are the Strategic layer, Tactical layer, Game Playing laye, and the Administrative layer.


Article D. The Strategic layer consists of the President, the Vice President,
and the Consuls. The Consuls, as listed below, are in tasked with
deciding on the broader picture of how $COUNTRY_NAME will operate.
The President leads the Strategic layer and controls/leads discussions
involving more than one Strategic Consul. The majority of the Strategic
layer's policy is based on discussions and polls.

1. President - Leads discussions crossing over multiple areas of different
Consuls. He/she will also decide on any strategic tasks not designated to
another consul in this constitution. The President is the primary designated player. He/she has the following responsibilities, and may appoint a citizen to oversee a responsibility: Naming of Cities and Units, Elections, and Polling Standards. These appointed officials remain in office until removed by a President.

2. Vice President - Assistant to the President. He/she may take over the
President's tasks when the President is absent. If the President should be
removed from office for any reason the Vice President will then take the position of President and appoint a Vice President. The Vice President must be approved by a majority of the consuls, if the Vice President is appointed mid-term.

3. Consul for Domestic Policy - Oversees long term settlement, long term worker plans, and long term build queues goals(not specific goals). Also in charge of government switches.

4. Consul for External Policy - Oversees long term planning of policy regarding other nations. This includes military plans, long term foreign affairs, and long term trading goals. Pushes for military improvements.

5. Consul for Cultural Policy - Monitors culture. Pushes for culture improvements. Fits science and religous improvements into the big picture. D

6. Consul for Resources and Technology Policy - Decides on long term tech queues, long term resource policies, and long term slider plans.


Article E. The Tactical layer consists of the the officials in charge of micromanagement of the game, within the boundaries of the Strategic layer's policy. The Tactical layer is not required to receive instructions from the people as long as their policy is within that of the Strategic layer's. However any citizen my start a discussion about the decision of a Tactical Leader. The Tactical layer is consisted of the officials below.

1. Commander of Armed Forces - Micromanages the military operations against foreign countries and unit(excluding worker, settler, and non-military used transport) movements.

2. Director of Commerce - Decides on foreign affairs and trading. Sets exact tech queue. Adjusts slider and approves/denies requests from governors regarding rushes(in a government requiring gold to rush).

3. Director of Infrastructure - Controls the worker actions. Reviews requests from governors about worker requests and accepts/denies these.

4. Director of Expansion - Decides on where to settle with settlers.

5. Governors - Manages citizens in cities under his/her control and the build queues. May request rushes from the Director of Commerce, and requet worker actions from the Director of Infrastrucute.


Article F. The Administrative layer consists of officials not directly related to the gameplay of the game.
The Chief Justice, Judge Advocate, and Public defender make up the court. They are tasked with
upholding, protecting, and clarifying the constitution and the code of laws. Court procedures
may be made by any court by having two out of the three justices agreeing. The Court procedures
must comply with the constitution and code of laws. The Court procedures can be treated as
a set of laws below the Code of Laws.

1. Chief Justice - Organizes and heads the affairs and discussions of the court.

2. Judge Advocate - Prosecutes Citizen Complaints if the Citizen Complaint is filed anonymously
or the accuser wishes to have the Judge Advocate prosecute. He/she ensures CCs are following
constitution, code of laws, and court procedures guidelines.

3. Public Defender - Acts as Chief Attorney for the accused, unless the accused wishes otherwise.
Ensures the accused understands his/her rights and the accusation.


Here is my second version

im guessing people care more about our flag than what leaders we have....

I think culture consul is pretty straightforward wonder discussions and culture wars, which I am doing right now. However, I see we probably should replace the Culture Consul with Finance Consul and transfer Wonders to Science and Trade and culture wars to the governors, that makes much more sense to me.

I think culture consul is pretty straightforward wonder discussions and culture wars, which I am doing right now. However, I see we probably should replace the Culture Consul with Finance Consul and transfer Wonders to Science and Trade and culture wars to the governors, that makes much more sense to me.
resources and technology is the finace consul

We will see later in the amendment debates what I really mean.

Any comments?
Might I remind people that we currently have no leaders, no offices, and basically no government. I can't make the next draft until people comment on this one.

I have some comments here, based on the present structure, but these are all for amendment purposes. I think we got some major imbalances between some of the consuls and some of the directors that needs to be evened out for the good of democracy and more interesting mandates and elections.

Assesment of Term One Cabinet Structure and elections, as well as balance of mandates, powers and Consul-Director relationships

We got 3 somewhat balanced consul positions and one redundant. The close race for external consul and technology and trade consuls prove that these are heavily contested, moderately for the Domestic and even less for culture.

The best way to make more incentive for future elections is to remove Culture Consul totally from the game, and transfer culture wars to governors and wonder discussions to technology and trade.

However, many players would like to see the Foreign Affairs and Trade Department reestablished. This would require the External Consul and the Technology and Trade Consul to cede away power to a new Consul position. Military and Foreign Affairs/Trade/State matters has to be divided, as one handle the game through military units and the other via the negotiation screen. We need to reestablish this divide.

The Foreign Affairs, Trade and certain high level state functions should be transferred to the new State Consul. This Consul should cover all foreign relation strategies, all trade policies based on national security, Mobilization, War Economy and, as well as espionage activities.

Victory Conditions: Diplomatic Victory (This consul leads discussions on how to win this strategy option)

External Consul will retain all military strategies as well as military strategies (strategic level unit movement, builds, and upgrades).
Victory Conditions Domination and Conquest Victories

Finance and Technology Consul will retain the long term technology planning, as well as all financial policies pertaining to taxation and slider, as well as Space Race planning, Capital location and Forbidden Palace location as well as policies for dealing with corruption.

Victory conditions: Space Race

Domestic Consul will retain territorial planning, provincial planning, nominating governors and lobbying for long term construction patterns. Domestic will also take responsibility for all wonder discussions, since Wonder builds must be aligned with a number of settler builds, and one office needs to oversee both. Provincial planning are also closely linked to culture wars, with a Seafaring/Commerce culture, Culture Consul does not belong in this game, as there are no director to work with, no real powers to work with and no real relational structures or balances across the system.

Victory Conditions: Culture

I also do know that you guys added Culture Consul in the last minute, originally having only three Consuls, as you did not know how to make room for a fourth one.
I would dare to say Culture Consul is something we really do not need.

well, that can work.

Assesment of Term One Cabinet Structure and elections, as well as balance of mandates, powers and Consul-Director relationships

We got 3 somewhat balanced consul positions and one redundant. The close race for external consul and technology and trade consuls prove that these are heavily contested, moderately for the Domestic and even less for culture.

The best way to make more incentive for future elections is to remove Culture Consul totally from the game, and transfer culture wars to governors and wonder discussions to technology and trade.

However, many players would like to see the Foreign Affairs and Trade Department reestablished. This would require the External Consul and the Technology and Trade Consul to cede away power to a new Consul position. Military and Foreign Affairs/Trade/State matters has to be divided, as one handle the game through military units and the other via the negotiation screen. We need to reestablish this divide.

The Foreign Affairs, Trade and certain high level state functions should be transferred to the new State Consul. This Consul should cover all foreign relation strategies, all trade policies based on national security, Mobilization, War Economy and, as well as espionage activities.

Victory Conditions: Diplomatic Victory (This consul leads discussions on how to win this strategy option)

External Consul will retain all military strategies as well as military strategies (strategic level unit movement, builds, and upgrades).
Victory Conditions Domination and Conquest Victories

Finance and Technology Consul will retain the long term technology planning, as well as all financial policies pertaining to taxation and slider, as well as Space Race planning, Capital location and Forbidden Palace location as well as policies for dealing with corruption.

Victory conditions: Space Race

Domestic Consul will retain territorial planning, provincial planning, nominating governors and lobbying for long term construction patterns. Domestic will also take responsibility for all wonder discussions, since Wonder builds must be aligned with a number of settler builds, and one office needs to oversee both. Provincial planning are also closely linked to culture wars, with a Seafaring/Commerce culture, Culture Consul does not belong in this game, as there are no director to work with, no real powers to work with and no real relational structures or balances across the system.

Victory Conditions: Culture

I also do know that you guys added Culture Consul in the last minute, originally having only three Consuls, as you did not know how to make room for a fourth one.
I would dare to say Culture Consul is something we really do not need.
Culture was one of the first positions.... Actually all current positions were made by DaveShack.
Culture is really involved with all short term planners. They oversee culture during a war(Commander of Armed Forces), they oversee culture when placing cities(Director of Expansion), they monitor culture when trades and foreign relations are being done(director of commerce)
the only director that culture doesnt overlook is Infrastructure...

Also the Domestic Consul shouldnt nominate governors, governors are elected...

Still, I believe in the need to reestablish Foreign Affairs as independent, and make culture part of domestic planning.

Let's just screw this pointless discussion, as it's not getting anywhere any time soon. As far as I can tell, we have no one willing to lead, and no one willing to make the decisions.

At this rate were have a constitution by DG7.

Let's just screw this pointless discussion, as it's not getting anywhere any time soon. As far as I can tell, we have no one willing to lead, and no one willing to make the decisions.

At this rate were have a constitution by DG7.
i see so you are wanting to use your proposal?

I think Daveshack is wise enough to see that we really can omit culture and reestablsh FA-Trade.

i see so you are wanting to use your proposal?

If I didn't think it was a good idea, then I wouldn't have proposed it. Atleast I'm willing to take the leadership role, and it's fully operational as a result.

Now take a look at how far you've progressed.

I think Daveshack is wise enough to see that we really can omit culture and reestablsh FA-Trade.
we have already elected positions, for the first term atleast we cant change the offices, only the desription...
so does anyone have comments on what i outlined last page?

I know positions are locked for term one. But workloadwise, we need an amendment as I described to balance out offices. Mostly to make more people interested in running.

next version:
Article X. The government will consist of four layers of government. These layers of government are the Strategic layer, Tactical layer, and the Administrative layer.


Article X. The Strategic layer consists of the President, the Vice President,
and the Consuls. The Consuls, as listed below, are in tasked with
deciding on the broader picture of how $COUNTRY_NAME will operate.
The President leads the Strategic layer and leads discussions
involving more than one Strategic Consul. The majority of the Strategic
layer's policy is based on discussions and polls.

1. President - Leads discussions crossing over multiple areas of different
Consuls. He/she will also decide on any strategic tasks not designated to
another consul in this constitution. The President is the primary designated player. He/she has the following responsibilities, and may appoint a citizen to oversee a responsibility: Naming of Cities and Units, Elections, and Polling Standards. These appointed officials remain in office until removed by a President.

2. Vice President - Assistant to the President. He/she may take over the
President's tasks when the President is absent. If the President should be
removed from office for any reason the Vice President will then take the position of President and appoint a Vice President. The Vice President must be approved by a majority of the consuls, if the Vice President is appointed mid-term.

3. Consul for Domestic Policy - Oversees long term settlement, long term worker plans, and long term build queues goals(not specific goals). Also in charge of government switches.

4. Consul for External Policy - Oversees long term planning of policy regarding other nations. This includes military plans, long term foreign affairs, and long term trading goals. Pushes for military improvements.

5. Consul for Cultural Policy - Monitors culture. Pushes for culture improvements. Fits science and religous improvements into the big picture. Develops wonder strategy.

6. Consul for Resources and Technology Policy - Decides on long term tech queues, long term resource policies, long term rushing(in governments where gold is used to rush) policies, and long term slider plans.


Article X. The Tactical layer consists of the the officials in charge of micromanagement of the game, within the boundaries of the Strategic layer's policy. The Tactical layer is not required to receive instructions from the people as long as their policy is within that of the Strategic layer's. However any citizen my start a discussion about the decision of a Tactical Leader. The Tactical layer is consisted of the officials below.

1. Commander of Armed Forces - Micromanages the military operations against foreign countries and unit (excluding worker, settler, and non-military transport) movements.

2. Director of Commerce - Decides on foreign affairs and trading. Sets exact tech queue. Adjusts slider and approves/denies requests from governors regarding rushes(in a government requiring gold to rush). Also decides on espionage missions.

3. Director of Infrastructure - Controls the worker actions. Reviews requests from governors about worker requests and accepts/denies these.

4. Director of Expansion - Decides on where to settle with settlers.

5. Governors - Manages citizens in cities under his/her control and the build queues. May request rushes from the Director of Commerce, and request worker actions from the Director of Infrastrucute.


Article X. The Administrative layer consists of officials not directly related to the gameplay of the game.
The Chief Justice, Judge Advocate, and Public defender make up the court. They are tasked with
upholding, protecting, and clarifying the constitution and the code of laws. Court procedures
may be made by any court by having two out of the three justices agreeing. The Court procedures
must comply with the constitution and code of laws. The Court procedures can be treated as
a set of laws below the Code of Laws.

1. Chief Justice - Organizes and heads the affairs and discussions of the court. May take place of other Justices if there is no pro-term justice.

2. Judge Advocate - Prosecutes Citizen Complaints if the Citizen Complaint is filed anonymously
or the accuser wishes to have the Judge Advocate prosecute. He/she ensures CCs are following
constitution, code of laws, and court procedures guidelines.

3. Public Defender - Acts as Chief Attorney for the accused, unless the accused wishes otherwise.
Ensures the accused understands his/her rights and the accusation.

For term one, this will work, please add in Espionage actities as well.

For term one, this will work, please add in Espionage actities as well.
done
It is under commerce, but is there any way espionage could be long term? If so i should add a line under External Consul

I think that the discussion of Provinicial Borders should be under the Domestic Consul.

Also, the point about government switches. The planing and criteria should be Domestic Consul, but the specific timing should be the Director of Commerce.

There should also be a note that the Director of Expansion position is eliminated (absorbed in the Domestic Consul position?) once we have finished the expansion phase.

Everything else looks good to me.

yes, External Consul would be the place for Term One, but now you see how extreme unbalances there are in workloads between offices on the various levels.
Foreign Affairs and Trade will be very heavy Term 2 and onwards, and culture has always been too light and redundant.

Article X. The Strategic layer consists of the President, the Vice President,
and the Consuls. The Consuls, as listed below, are in tasked with
deciding on the broader picture of how $COUNTRY_NAME will operate.
The President leads the Strategic layer and leads discussions
involving more than one Strategic Consul. The majority of the Strategic
layer's policy is based on discussions and polls.

1. President - Leads discussions crossing over multiple areas of different
Consuls. He/she will also decide on any strategic tasks not designated to
another consul in this constitution. The President is the primary designated player. He/she has the following responsibilities, and may appoint a citizen to oversee a responsibility: Naming of Cities and Units, Elections, and Polling Standards. These appointed officials remain in office until removed by a President.

Your opening statement and your first section is redunant. You repeat the same thing twice in the same article, it's bad enough when it's done in the constitution as a whole.

2. Vice President - Assistant to the President. He/she may take over the
President's tasks when the President is absent. If the President should be
removed from office for any reason the Vice President will then take the position of President and appoint a Vice President. The Vice President must be approved by a majority of the consuls, if the Vice President is appointed mid-term.

This should just say that the Vice President acts as the Presidents deputy. Well not even that, there shouldn't even be a single thing about the Vice President inside of this entire article. It should all be covered in an article about deputies. Useless information.

3. Consul for Domestic Policy - Oversees long term settlement, long term worker plans, and long term build queues goals(not specific goals). Also in charge of government switches.

This poistion is useless, the only thing that actually matters in this is settlement, and by Term 3 that will be useless also. The governors will continue to control every aspect of there queues, and are prefectly capable of handling the long-term affairs of there province. Other than that, long-term worker actions? Who cares what are workers are going to be doing 20 turns from now, as long as it's something useful.

4. Consul for External Policy - Oversees long term planning of policy regarding other nations. This includes military plans, long term foreign affairs, and long term trading goals. Pushes for military improvements.

Another useless, and pointless poistion. First off, long-term policy regarding other nations would be more of a guessing game than anything else. The long-term trading goals has me wondering what the hell is going on here, what long-term trading goals? Are we allowed to play the save ahead now or something? Also, they can push for military improvements all they want, I doubt it'll get that far though.

5. Consul for Cultural Policy - Monitors culture. Pushes for culture improvements. Fits science and religous improvements into the big picture. Develops wonder strategy.

As Provo has been saying, useless and should be removed.

Article X. The Tactical layer consists of the the officials in charge of micromanagement of the game, within the boundaries of the Strategic layer's policy. The Tactical layer is not required to receive instructions from the people as long as their policy is within that of the Strategic layer's. However any citizen my start a discussion about the decision of a Tactical Leader. The Tactical layer is consisted of the officials below.

So this basicly says, that these elected officials make choices based on what our other elected officials say? Congratulations on achieving a new level of democracy.

1. Commander of Armed Forces - Micromanages the military operations against foreign countries and unit (excluding worker, settler, and non-military transport) movements.

The Micromanagement of this contains what? Where is the cut-off line between Long-term planning and micromanagement?

2. Director of Commerce - Decides on foreign affairs and trading. Sets exact tech queue. Adjusts slider and approves/denies requests from governors regarding rushes(in a government requiring gold to rush).

Isn't the slider more of a long-term affair? Also, wouldn't rushing not also be included as a long-term affair also?

3. Director of Infrastructure - Controls the worker actions. Reviews requests from governors about worker requests and accepts/denies these.

It's best to just put the DP incharge of worker actions, and let the governors request certain tiles to be worked. Get rid of it.

4. Director of Expansion - Decides on where to settle with settlers.

Wouldn't this be a long term affair also? Cause you know, once we place that city... it's going to be there for a LONG time.

5. Governors - Manages citizens in cities under his/her control and the build queues. May request rushes from the Director of Commerce, and request worker actions from the Director of Infrastrucute.

Governors are part of the legislative branch, not the executive. Unless there is some huge change going on, this shouldn't even be here.

Edit: Forgot about the adminstrative branch. I'll get to that right now. In the next post.

Well, this is where I and Black Hole Agrees. We do indeed need a strategic and tactical layer, and Strider, there will be no compromise if you shoot this principle down.
I know from several ministries that the cooperation of minister and deputy worked just fine, and there is a big difference of long term and short term strategy discussions and polling. I believe we can amend the Alternate Proposal with balancing out offices and reestablishing the core Traditional principles.

A compromise GOT to have the strategy and tactical levels, as well as relating one victory condition long term to each Consul. Culture should be omitted, but External and
Technology/Finance/Trade is too strong.

Article X. The Administrative layer consists of officials not directly related to the gameplay of the game. The Chief Justice, Judge Advocate, and Public defender make up the court. They are tasked with upholding, protecting, and clarifying the constitution and the code of laws. Court procedures may be made by any court by having two out of the three justices agreeing. The Court procedures must comply with the constitution and code of laws. The Court procedures can be treated as
a set of laws below the Code of Laws.

The Chief Justice, Judge Advocate, and Public Defender make up the court? Well hell... it looks to me like they make up the entire Administrative layer.

1. Chief Justice - Organizes and heads the affairs and discussions of the court. May take place of other Justices if there is no pro-term justice.

Whatever happened to the Chief Justice appointing a pro-term justice?

2. Judge Advocate - Prosecutes Citizen Complaints if the Citizen Complaint is filed anonymously or the accuser wishes to have the Judge Advocate prosecute. He/she ensures CCs are following constitution, code of laws, and court procedures guidelines.

So the same person who is prosecutes the accused, also makes sure that it was a fair trial? This is better placed under the role of the Public Defender.

-------------

Also, what happened to the House? Who makes up our laws now?

Well, this is where I and Black Hole Agrees. We do indeed need a strategic and tactical layer, and Strider, there will be no compromise if you shoot this principle down. I know from several ministries that the cooperation of minister and deputy worked just fine, and there is a big difference of long term and short term strategy discussions and polling. I believe we can amend the Alternate Proposal with balancing out offices and reestablishing the core Traditional principles.

Well, from what I've read... the there is no "short term strategy discussion and polling." Also, what is the differance between long-term and short-term? Where is the line? I will continue to shoot down this principle as long as it continues to be unclear, worthless, and inefficient.

Well, I thought you went for the compromise, now you run a campaign to destroy both the Alternate Proposal and the Compromise.

For example. Long term strategy means that you sort out the long term visions and major orientations in the game, where short term is finding the best route to follow these goals between turnchats, it is a pretty straight forward and inteligent principle which won the majority.

Well, I thought you went for the compromise, now you run a campaign to destroy both the Alternate Proposal and the Compromise.

For example. Long term strategy means that you sort out the long term visions and major orientations in the game, where short term is finding the best route to follow these goals between turnchats, it is a pretty straight forward and inteligent principle which won the majority.

The compromise does not split things straight into long-term and short-term visions, and if I may point out. Every single constitutional proposal places someone incharge of long-term planning of an aspect of the game. It won the majority 3 years ago. While we need to put some action into our long-term planning, our officials shouldn't be charged with carrying out long-term planning. They should just encourage it to happen among the citizens.

This is badly written, it repeats the same thing several times, it's missing several keys parts, and overall does not even come close to meeting constitutional standards.

Well then strider, I thought we agreed on a Compromise, but now you turn to only go full traditional. Did you redecide, or call for a compromise just to win time and supporters ?

Well then strider, I thought we agreed on a Compromise, but now you turn to onløy go full traditional. Did you redecide, or call for a compromise just to win time and supporters ?

Throughout my life-time I have been more iron-will and stubborn on my choices than anyone else, and I'm sure many of the DG veterns know this all to well. I did not change my view, you just changed the way you look at it. I supported the compromise as a compromise, and I still do.

Well, maybe the Compromise will improve the end result and bring peace to the nation, and I believe that the people will see that you made concessions from your initial stance.
If Black Hole would be more flexible on balancing out the positions powers and mandates, we would probably get better elections too.

Well, from what I've read... the there is no "short term strategy discussion and polling." Also, what is the differance between long-term and short-term? Where is the line? I will continue to shoot down this principle as long as it continues to be unclear, worthless, and inefficient.

That is indeed the idea -- we should poll the long-term stuff (more than 1 play session in the future) and the short term stuff (the next play session) is under direct control of the tactical layer. The people may request a poll on tactical issues, but if no poll is requested then none is required.

I agree with DS here, on the very principle. For us with some organizational level work experience, we know that one needs to define long term and short term in all walks of life, and not boil it into some relativist soup of anarchy and structural discord.

It is plain and simple, long term planning sets the limits and scope for tactical planning to operate under. Strategy would go two turnchats and longer to the end of the term, where tactical goes through 1-2 turnchats, adapting to the long term designations set by the strategic level. In fact, a complex war may extend tactical military operations to last for a full 3 turnchat length of planning.

On the other hand, I do not want to see some Mickey Mouse, happy-go-lucky cowboy hat, gamey, haphazard, random, vague WOTP jingoist , over-politicized, structure free chaos of a bureucratic morass of makeshift last minute fire extinguishing solutions.
I have seen pretty poor and work intensive emergency solutions require more effort than some proper organization, simple predefined procedures and sound routine.
Again, people may or may not have various organizational experiences, but I do know that we got both the writing skills, expertise and brainpower in this forum to make this work. If people brag about taking on Sid, Demi-god and what have you, they should be more than capable to handle Strategy-tactical level, balance positions as well as introducing a much better economic planning model.

I agree with DS here, on the very principle. For us with some organizational level work experience, we know that one needs to define long term and short term in all walks of life, and not boil it into some relativist soup of anarchy and structural discord.

It is plain and simple, long term planning sets the limits and scope for tactical planning to operate under. Strategy would go two turnchats and longer to the end of the term, where tactical goes through 1-2 turnchats, adapting to the long term designations set by the strategic level. In fact, a complex war may extend tactical military operations to last for a full 3 turnchat length of planning.

Then, how long is two turnchats? 20 turns? 30 turns? How much is less than two turnchats? What if for some strange reason, we cut two turnchats short at less than 5 turns each? Your defination is unclear and simply not enough. It doesn't do anything to say where the line is placed, except give you a general spectrum that 50 differant circumstances can screw up. Also, what if a DP only decides to have one or two turnchats in an entire term?

All I'm seeing is lack of forethought and detailed planning, not what I asked for.

On the other hand, I do not want to see some Mickey Mouse, happy-go-lucky cowboy hat, gamey, haphazard, random, vague WOTP jingoist , over-politicized, structure free chaos of a bureucratic morass of makeshift last minute fire extinguishing solutions.
I have seen pretty poor and work intensive emergency solutions require more effort than some proper organization, simple predefined procedures and sound routine.
Again, people may or may not have various organizational experiences, but I do know that we got both the writing skills, expertise and brainpower in this forum to make this work. If people brag about taking on Sid, Demi-god and what have you, they should be more than capable to handle Strategy-tactical level, balance positions as well as introducing a much better economic planning model.

Which does very little to explain while were not doing much better at handling an Strategic-tatic level system. Currently, this strategic/tatical level system is not detailed, it's unclear on several points, several non-important powers are completely left out, and for some strange reason I've yet to figure out, the citizens lost there place in the government.

next version:
Article X. The government will consist of four branches: the Strategic Branch, Tactical Branch, Judicial Branch, and the General Assembly,


Article X. The Strategic branch consists of the President, the Vice President,
and the Consuls. The Consuls, as listed below, are in tasked with
deciding on the broader picture of how $COUNTRY_NAME will operate. The majority of the Strategic layer's policy is based on discussions and polls.

1. President - Leads discussions crossing over multiple areas of different
Consuls. He/she will also decide on any strategic tasks not designated to
another consul in this constitution. The President is the primary designated player. He/she has the following responsibilities, and may appoint a citizen to oversee a responsibility: Naming of Cities and Units, Elections, and Polling Standards. These appointed officials remain in office until removed by a President.

2. Vice President - Assistant to the President. He/she may take over the
President's tasks when the President is absent. If the President should be
removed from office for any reason the Vice President will then take the position of President and appoint a Vice President. The Vice President must be approved by a majority of the consuls, if the Vice President is appointed mid-term.

3. Consul for Domestic Policy - Oversees long term settlement, long term worker plans, and long term build queues goals(not specific goals). Also in charge of government switches.

4. Consul for External Policy - Oversees long term planning of policy regarding other nations. This includes military plans, long term foreign affairs, and long term trading goals. Pushes for military improvements.

5. Consul for Cultural Policy - Monitors culture. Pushes for culture improvements. Fits science and religous improvements into the big picture. Develops wonder strategy.

6. Consul for Resources and Technology Policy - Decides on long term tech queues, long term resource policies, long term rushing(in governments where gold is used to rush) policies, and long term slider plans.


Article X. The Tactical branch consists of the the officials in charge of micromanagement of the game, within the boundaries of the Strategic layer's policy. The Tactical layer is not required to receive instructions from the people as long as their policy is within that of the Strategic layer's. However any citizen my start a discussion about the decision of a Tactical Leader. The Tactical layer is consisted of the officials below.

1. Commander of Armed Forces - Micromanages the military operations against foreign countries and unit (excluding worker, settler, and non-military transport) movements.

2. Director of Commerce - Decides on foreign affairs and trading. Sets exact tech queue. Adjusts slider and approves/denies requests from governors regarding rushes(in a government requiring gold to rush). Also decides on espionage missions.

3. Director of Infrastructure - Controls the worker actions. Reviews requests from governors about worker requests and accepts/denies these.

4. Director of Expansion - Decides on where to settle with settlers.

5. Governors - Manages citizens in cities under his/her control and the build queues. May request rushes from the Director of Commerce, and request worker actions from the Director of Infrastrucute.


Article X. The Judiciary or Judicial branch is tasked with upholding, defending, and intereperting the laws of $COUNTRY_NAME. The Judiciary also upholds the rights of all citizens. The Judiciary may create Judicial Procedures which define how the Judiciary will opearte. It must be approved by 2/3 of the justices. This set of laws is lower than the Constitution and Code of Laws, meaning it must be within the boundaries of the constitution.
The Chief Justice, Judge Advocate, and Public defender make up the court.

1. Chief Justice - Organizes and heads the affairs and discussions of the court. May take place of other Justices if there is no pro-term justice.

2. Judge Advocate - Prosecutes Citizen Complaints if the Citizen Complaint is filed anonymously
or the accuser wishes to have the Judge Advocate prosecute. He/she ensures CCs are following
constitution, code of laws, and court procedures guidelines.

3. Public Defender - Acts as Chief Attorney for the accused, unless the accused wishes otherwise.
Ensures the accused understands his/her rights and the accusation.


Article X. The Citizens
The Citizens make up the General Assembly. The General Assembly is tasked with the creation of laws and leading the elected officials. After a law is created or changed by the citizenry, it is presented to the Judiciary to ensure it is following the correct format and is within the constitution.

I observe several problems in our constitution, I will post a separate thread with my analysis on what had to be fixed and why. However, the platform is good. I have given up making a compromise with Strider who oppose any merger/split of tratitional positions. At least this is a complete and comprehensive solution that balances out strong and weak Consuls and Directors based on the DS-Black Hole Proposal.

What is the major differences are the following

1. Consul for Culture is abolished and wonder powers transferred to Consul for Domestic and Culture, as well as cultural wars. City planning and culture wars go hand in hand. Consul for Domestic and Culture is now in charge for culture victories.

2. Consul for State is reestablished (Combined FA and Trade minister) with new powers such as Government change, Mobilization and War Economy, as well as Embassy and Espionage Policies. Trade is taken from the Technology and Trade Consul and FA taken from the External Consul. In charge of Diplomatic Victories

3. Consul for Finance and Trade (Former Technology and Trade) is now in charge of monitoring corruption as well, and leading discussions on Capital and Forbidden Palace placement and other ways to curb corruption, as well as developing some budgetary discipline and coordinating major upgrades with the military. In charge of Space Victory.

4. Consul for External Affairs is renamed Consul for National Security, and is a pure long term military planning consul, adding military land improvements as part of the scope. In charge of Conquest and Domination Victories.

5. Commander of Armed Forces renamed to Director. More so, wording is more detailed and legally explicit, as well as adding military upgrades.

7 Director of Commerce has been trimmed down to only handle the control of the slider and running the national and provincial budgets. This is still one of the most powerful positions in the DG due to our nations commercial-seafaring traits.

8. Director of Infrastructure have added technology queue adjustments, science leaders, land development and pollution monitoring, making this a more attractive office for running for elections.

9. Director of Expansion have added all foreign treaties and trades negotiations, all settler movements, settler escorts, Navy in peacetime and ordering espionage missions. This will balance out the late game where DOE has almost no cities to build.

10. Governors are now in charge of securing their borders in culture wars. and finally, this proposal balances out activities of offices over all terms, as well as balancing out power deficiencies to make all offices somewhat attractive to run for in elections.
The goal would be to motivate more to participate in the elections.




Article D. The Strategic Council comprise of the President, the Vice President,
and the four Consuls. The Consuls, as listed below, are tasked with
the responsibility on drafting the long term goals of Fanatannia.
The President leads the Strategic Council and controls/leads discussions
involving more than one Consul. The majority of the Strategic
Councils policy is based on discussions and polls.

1. President - Leads discussions crossing the various departments covered by the Consuls. He/she will also decide on any strategic tasks not designated to another consul in this constitution. The President is the primary designated player. He/she has the following responsibilities, and may appoint any non-elected citizen to oversee a responsibility: Naming of Cities and Units, Elections, and Polling Standards. These appointed officials remain in office until removed by a President. The President is also in charge of monitoring the strategic leadership of each Consul responsible for a specific Victory Condition.

2. Vice President - Assistant to the President. He/she may take over the
President's tasks when the President is absent. If the President should be
removed from office for any reason the Vice President will then take the position of President and appoint a Vice President. The Vice President must be approved by a majority of the consuls, if the Vice President is appointed mid-term, with the President deciding in a tie.

3. Consul for Domestic Policy –
Consul of Domestic and Cultural Policy (CDC) is developing long term placement of new cities, long term cultural integrity plans of said cities, long term worker plans, and general long term build policies, and is finally responsible for leading wonder discussions.
CDC monitors national agriculture, industry and culture.
Victory condition leadership: Culture through build policies

4. Consul for National Security –
Consul for National Security develops long term military plans and promotes for military improvements and military land improvements. CNS is also responsible for the preplanning of major military upgrades in coordination with CNS. CNS also promotes culture wars.
CNS monitors unhappiness, military police levels, military security and culture levels.
Victory condition leadership: Conquest and Domination through military operations

5. Consul for State Policy.
Consul for State Policy (CSP) develops long term foreign affairs and long term trading goals and resource policies. CSP also promotes the establishment of embassies and is in charge of all Espionage activities. CSP is also in charge of Government switches, Mobilization and War Economy. Victory Condition leadership: Diplomatic through diplomatic and trade actions.

6. Consul for Finance and Technology (CFT) –
Consul for Finance and Technology is planning long term technology queues and long term slider plans as well as long term national budgets.. CFT promotes scientific, commercial and anti-corruption city improvements and monitors the slider, gold levels and corruption levels.
CFT is also responsible for the location of the Capital and Forbidden Palace location debates
Victory Condition leadership: Space Race through science race and rushes of space parts.




Article E. The Directorate comprise of the Directors implementing the long term policies of the game, within the mandate given by the Strategic Council. The Directorate is not required to receive instructions from the people as long as their policy is within that of the Strategic Council. However any citizen may start a discussion about the decision of a Director. The Directorate comprise of the listed Directors

1. Director of Armed Forces – Controls the military operations against foreign countries and all military land movements (excluding workers, settlers and settler escorts) and all naval units in wartime. Director of Armed Forces is also in charge of handling military upgrades, as well as leading discussions on what to do with military leaders.

2. Director of Commerce - Controls financial slider and approves/denies requests from governors and other directors regarding rushes based on budgetary guidelines made by consuls (in a government requiring gold to rush).

3. Director of Infrastructure - Controls the worker actions. Reviews requests from governors and directors about worker requests and accepts/denies these. Director of Infrastructure is also in charge of setting the exact technology queue as well as leading discussions on Science Leaders. Director of Infrastructure should also monitor pollution as well as land development.

4. Director of Expansion - Decides on where to establish new cities, settler movements and settler military escorts and is in charge of the Navy in peace time. Director of Expansion also decides on separate foreign affairs and trade agreements as well as ordering espionage missions as well as counter-espionage missions.

5. Governors - Manages citizens in cities under his/her control and the build queues and may request rushes from the Director of Commerce, and request infrastructure from the Director of Infrastrucute. Governors are responsible for Provincial budgets and for running Provincial culture wars.

I have spent quite a lot of time trying to figure out why the controversy over the External Consul. I must have allowed a translation mistake and not realized it. Looking back at private notes we have:

Old <-> New
Domestic <-> Domestic
FA <-> External
Mil <-> Not a consul any more, tactical
Sci + Trace <-> Resources & Tech
Culture <-> Culture

DS - doesn't look like a problem to me. With the External consul handling the small amount of military strategy out there, we're in good shape.

Black Hole - looks good for the most part.

Tweaks:
Consuls
Domestic: Plans for Government switches - only Directors should be posting instructions. Instead of queues, I would mention that they monitor long-term city development objectives.

External: Scratch the Military improvements? Not sure, it just doesn't seem right that an external consul would be pushing city improvements. I think it belongs in Domestic, and it's covered by the city development stuff.

Culture: Looks good.

Resources & Tech: I'd drop the rushing, and call it long-term fiscal policy. Example: keep cash above 1000 gold unless there is an emergency. Remember, there are more uses to cash that just rushing improvements.

Directors
Commander of Armed Forces: Looks good.

Commerce: Approves all uses of cash - again more uses than just rushing. There needs to be one person approving all uses so that we balance all needs equally.

Infrastructure: Good.

Expansion: Good. Add province boundaries here.

Governors: Good. Might grab the clause from DG V - that one just seemed to be nicely written.

Judiciary: Looks okay.

-- Ravensfire

finally some constructive comments!
Thanks RF :goodjob:
I will update the constitution later this evening...

I'd drop one phrase in particular, Black Hole, from the External Consul: ' Pushes for military improvements.' An External Consul might recognize that we can't support, say, a large number of barracks. Otherwise, with raven's suggestions, it looks good. :)

And, you'll have to excuse my idle musing, now, but, how if the Consuls simply chose, from amongst their own number, the President? The President really doesn't have that many powers, so it wouldn't be a burden on another Consul. The Directors on the tacital level, too, could do the same and chose the Vice President from amongst themselves, so as to gain a positions (without electing anyone new) that coordinates that layer.

2. Vice President - Assistant to the President. He/she may take over the
President's tasks when the President is absent. If the President should be
removed from office for any reason the Vice President will then take the position of President and appoint a Vice President. The Vice President must be approved by a majority of the consuls, if the Vice President is appointed mid-term.

As I said before, this is repetive. If you plan on using the same article about deputies from DG5 (or if you plan on using mine), this will have to be removed.

3. Consul for Domestic Policy - Oversees long term settlement, long term worker plans, and long term build queues goals(not specific goals). Also in charge of government switches.

4. Consul for External Policy - Oversees long term planning of policy regarding other nations. This includes military plans, long term foreign affairs, and long term trading goals. Pushes for military improvements.

5. Consul for Cultural Policy - Monitors culture. Pushes for culture improvements. Fits science and religous improvements into the big picture. Develops wonder strategy.

6. Consul for Resources and Technology Policy - Decides on long term tech queues, long term resource policies, long term rushing(in governments where gold is used to rush) policies, and long term slider plans.

Once again, not detailed enough. What the hell is long-term? The Domestic Consul will become un-needed by about the midevil ages, so there is atleast one wall in the way of efficiency. The External Counsul is useless also, the tatical people will most likely plan most of the wars and "long-term" foreign affairs is crap. If the counsul even bothers with it, it'll likely just be blown away by a declaration of war.

1. Commander of Armed Forces - Micromanages the military operations against foreign countries and unit (excluding worker, settler, and non-military transport) movements.

2. Director of Commerce - Decides on foreign affairs and trading. Sets exact tech queue. Adjusts slider and approves/denies requests from governors regarding rushes(in a government requiring gold to rush). Also decides on espionage missions.

3. Director of Infrastructure - Controls the worker actions. Reviews requests from governors about worker requests and accepts/denies these.

4. Director of Expansion - Decides on where to settle with settlers.

5. Governors - Manages citizens in cities under his/her control and the build queues. May request rushes from the Director of Commerce, and request worker actions from the Director of Infrastrucute.

Mainly just the tradational poistions with acouple merged, not much to screw up on here. Although I can find a hell of alot of mistakes. The Director of Commerce poistion is far to powerful, you mainly took four poistions (foreign affiars, science, trade, and domestic) and merged them together. Trade later on inside of the game is hard enough to do, but having one person handle trade, science, domestic, and foreign affair duties is unrealistic. Meanwhile, you have Infrastructure and expansion, quite possibly the weakest poistion in the entire game, ever if they were put together. Infrastructure is useless, it should be the governors/DP choice as to what we do with our workers. We've tried micromanaging it before, and well... it was obviously removed. Now just one person controlling settlers, might be okay at the start of the game, but by the end it's going to be another useless poistion.

Other than that, you have no one charged with the formation of provinces, you have no single person charged with managing our budget, and you've also left out the spaceship parts. So.... while our Director of Commerce is managing the entire game, Expansion is twiddling his thumbs, and Infrastructure is jumping onto every single pollution spot that appears.

Congratulations, not only have you turned this game from a direct democracy to a represenative democracy, you've also placed all of the power under one person (who doesn't answer to the citizens), and somehow managed to forget why we made provinces in the first place.

I agree, the presented draft is not a good constitution covering all terms. Some super consuls and super directors are made, and others left with virtually no authority.
However, the principle of strategy vs tactical holds merit, and we saw that in various departments in DG5. However, the founding fathers have forgotten to cover what could be good processes linking the strategic to the tactical level, so there is a processual chain fulfilling the needs for good planning and the Right to Information in the forums. The generic consitution has not been abke to describe the processual relationships defining why we need strategic and tactical. This really worked well for MSAV Term IV last DG.

For example.

What if we say there are 4 four main pillars of the game, that can be named to be equally powerful, using the 4 main groups of victory conditions as a legend. In this post I focus on the military position alone on both levels.

Domination and Conquest Victory, Former Military Minister

Military Consul

Target number of maximum military units to be built for the term - upkeep
Force composition of the combined military forces - unit builds
Military Improvements and infrastructure planned - city builds
Organization of the military formations of the nation - organization
Predefining potential war-goals for every single nation - Decree
Lobbying for military technologies long term - tech - plan
Planning for major upgrade series and setting upgrade criteria - Reforms
Defining Criteria for Obsoletion of military units - Disbands

Military Director

Decree - Developing operational plans based on strategic objectives
Upkeep - Making sure the military does not pass the preset maximum upkeep
Unit builds - Lobbying governors to meet the needed military quota
City builds - Lobbying governors to meet the needed military improvements
Organization - Setting up battle groups and task forces based on formations
Tech Plan - Lobbying for emergency adjustments to the tech plan
Reforms - Seeing reforms through by setting upgrade priority order
Disbands - Allocating disbands to provinces by priority

All these interlocked actions produce needed forum information, organization, structure and clarity, so every official know what to send to who, when and why for what purpose, and what information to post in the forums.
This discussion has been heavily neglected.

Here follows something we could do with Domestic Consul and Commercial Drector

Victory Condition Culture, former Domestic Minister and Culture Minister

Domestic and Culture Consul

Target number of maximum buildings built to targeted budget - upkeep
Cultural, Commercial and science Improvements planned - city builds
Planning of main strategic roads and defensive complexes - workers
Organization of the setting up of provinces and borders - organization
Predefining potential settlement goals for every single land area - Decree
Lobbying for domestic and cultural technologies long term - tech - plan
Planning for Wonder construction, discussions and polls - Reforms
Defining Criteria for city subsidies - Disbands
War Economy special action
Revolution special action

Director for Labor, Research and Culture

Upkeep - Monitoring efficiency of all provinces, making recommendations
city builds - Monitoring each cities culture levels,making recommendations
Workers - allocating all workers and deciding on agriculture, mining, roads...
Orgnization - Mediating between governors on provincial border disputes
Decree - setting up city settlement plans based on Consul Decreet
tech plan - Adjusting technology line on request for altering plans
Reforms - Overseeing optional locations for wonder builds
Disbands - Distribyting military shield disbands to governors

Victory Condition Dipomatic, former foreign Minister and trade Minister

State Consul

Planning on the grand picture of int. relations and world order - Organization
Deciding on which nations should have embassies - Embassies
Deciding on policies for trading techs, strategy and luxury resources - Trade
Deciding on policies for Peace, Military alliances, MPPs and Embargoes -Treaty
Deciding on policies for handling demands and forwarding Demands - Demands
Deciding on policies for espionage targeted on each nation - Espionage
Deciding on the nature of relationships and territorial interests - Decree
Deciding on Wonder builds - Reforms
Mobilization

Director for Expansion and Colonial Affairs

Organization - organizing borders and city settlement, and foreign relations
Organization - organizing Navy in Peacetime and overseas transport system
Embassies - Deciding on the timing and cost requisition for Embassies
Trade, Treaties and Demands - Full negotiation autority on Diplo Screen
Espionage - Callling all espionage missions based on foreign policy
Decree - Acting on the basis of official foreign policy and territorial interests
Reforms - Advocating Naval Upgrades and promoting wonder build locations

I am reviewing these proposals. Thank you for posting constructive and focused input. :D I have several questions.

General questions

What does "Decreet" mean?

Also it looked like you were going to post 4 proposals but there only seem to be 3. Am I misreading it?

In defining a constitution, we don't want to be too detailed. Can the details of interactions go in a lower form of law, or in a "guide to playing the positions" type document?

For several games we have toyed with the idea of adjusting responsibilities based on what age of the game we're in. You seem to be suggesting adjustments based on victory condition? If so, how do we write generic job descriptions to result in a constitution which is valid for every victory condition?

Separate Military Consul

We just disagree on the need for long-term military strategy. My opinion is that either we're warlike and we produce as many units as we can, or we're not and we focus on diplomacy. Beyond that, what possible debate is there on long-term military? Who to attack is a function of analyzing the strengths and weaknesses of our opponents, and by definition whomever we're not attacking are the ones we need treaties with. The same person can deal with all our opponents.

I can be convinced however. Can you describe a situation where there is long-term military planning required, which is non-trivial, not tactical in nature, and does not overlap the function of classifying opponents and deciding which ones to make the victims and which are friends?

Culture

Culture is weak, and we all know it. The underlying reason is that every time we mention an overriding authority which can make governors build the improvements we need for culture in the correct order, it gets shouted down as handcuffing the governors and demeaning their office. At least as a separate planner, the Culture Consul can force the WOTP to be recognized, if culture is what the majority wants. We tried combining culture with domestic once before, and the result was the governors did whatever they pleased.

Daveshack, on Decree. 1.

\De*cree"\, n. [OE. decre, F. d['e]cret, fr. L. decretum,
neut. decretus, p. p. of decernere to decide; de- + cernere
to decide. See {Certain}, and cf. {Decreet}, {Decretal}.]
1. An order from one having authority, deciding what is to be
done by a subordinate; also, a determination by one having
power, deciding what is to be done or to take place;
edict, law; authoritative ru?? decision. ``The decrees of
Venice.'' --Sh???.

There went out a decree from C[ae]sar Augustus that
all the world should be taxed. --Luke ii. 1.

Poor hand, why quiverest thou at this decree?
--Shak.

2. (Law)
(a) A decision, order, or sentence, given in a cause by a
court of equity or admiralty.
(b) A determination or judgment of an umpire on a case
submitted to him. --Brande.

3. (Eccl.) An edict or law made by a council for regulating
any business within their jurisdiction; as, the decrees of
ecclesiastical councils.

Syn: Law; regulation; edict; ordinance. See {Law}.


2.

\De*cree"\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. {Decreed}; p. pr. & vb.
n. {Decreeing}.]
1. To determine judicially by authority, or by decree; to
constitute by edict; to appoint by decree or law; to
determine; to order; to ordain; as, a court decrees a
restoration of property.

Thou shalt also decree a thing, and it shall be
established unto thee. --Job xxii.
28.

2. To ordain by fate.


3.

\De*cree"\, v. i.
To make decrees; -- used absolutely.

Father eternal! thine is to decree; Mine, both in
heaven and earth to do thy will. --Milton.

Yes, but you consistently misspelled it as "Decreet", so I was confused. :rolleyes:

Ah - but you forgot the smiley, DS, so the humor was missed.

-- Ravensfire

Also it looked like you were going to post 4 proposals but there only seem to be 3. Am I misreading it?

Sorry, I was writing a research proposal and had to leave, I will add the fourth shortly.


In defining a constitution, we don't want to be too detailed. Can the details of interactions go in a lower form of law, or in a "guide to playing the positions" type document?

Definitive -it has to be a lower law, or we would see numerous transgressions, and a guide would not suffice. However, the guide can be written as well.



For several games we have toyed with the idea of adjusting responsibilities based on what age of the game we're in. You seem to be suggesting adjustments based on victory condition? If so, how do we write generic job descriptions to result in a constitution which is valid for every victory condition?

I think each Consul has a different focus, Finance and Technology is all about
the Space Race in the long term, since it is a question of tech parity and finances to rush space parts to win this race. Of course all consuls are all round, but this would make much more sense. However, the adjustments are based on the need to cover various fields.


Separate Military Consul
We just disagree on the need for long-term military strategy. My opinion is that either we're warlike and we produce as many units as we can, or we're not and we focus on diplomacy. Beyond that, what possible debate is there on long-term military? Who to attack is a function of analyzing the strengths and weaknesses of our opponents, and by definition whomever we're not attacking are the ones we need treaties with. The same person can deal with all our opponents.


I can be convinced however. Can you describe a situation where there is long-term military planning required, which is non-trivial, not tactical in nature, and does not overlap the function of classifying opponents and deciding which ones to make the victims and which are friends?



It is not that easy as we can write off military strategy from foreign policy, these two need to be independent entities for a plethora of reasons, and we are basically going against all tradition in real life in this manner. It is the very dynamics between foreign policy and military planning that makes this game fun, or we could just play it single player. The dynamic of hawks and doves require two separate institutions to balance out these interests.

Again, a good long term military planner know what target of military units is required to handle a given job, which reflects on upkeep per turn, force composition, major upgrade projects in the multi-1000 gold class, military roads, fortresses, watchtowers and airstrips are all areas where the long term military planning is required, as well as lobbying for certain military technologies to adjust the research queue. Also, deciding on which units should be obsolete, and disbanded is another touchy matter, especially now that we got named pet units and so on. All these areas should be discussed on a higher level, since this will reflect on the military expenditure, economic costs, combat readiness, operational flexibility and so on.

So back to the main area you only concentrated on, war objectives. Several in this game want us to have prepared "national interests" of cities we are "allowed" to take according to long term interests, so the long term planner decides on red and green areas of another nation in case a war erupts, war objectives, or even more extensively, doctrines. A simpleton could merely designate x amount of target cities in each civ, a more thorough player could add even more criteria. This also reflects on the military organization, which is important, as every unit needs to be accounted for, placed in a formation and
designated to a military district. This will affect military police density, ready task forces, standing army groups and so on. Many of us are not too happy with some lazy military planner churning troops out when needed with no accounts, no structure, no plan, no organization and no control of military budget, and absolutely no idea on how to handle "unexpected" wars.
I ran an election against a guy on the program of organizing this long term, and I won 75 % to 25 % , since this is what people wanted.
Bare minimum long term planning stinks for the military.

Additionally, military intelligence on each neighbor is required to do all this well, and I would say long term military planning is both powerful and work intensive if done right.

Culture
Culture is weak, and we all know it. The underlying reason is that every time we mention an overriding authority which can make governors build the improvements we need for culture in the correct order, it gets shouted down as handcuffing the governors and demeaning their office. At least as a separate planner, the Culture Consul can force the WOTP to be recognized, if culture is what the majority wants. We tried combining culture with domestic once before, and the result was the governors did whatever they pleased.

Well, then you had a weak Domestic Minister being churned down by angry governors, and I would say this was a result more to a weak lobbying and/or character of the Domestic-Culture minister than anything else. Governors should work for minor cultural achievements, since it is in their interest to protect their cultural borders. Culture is a very hollow ministry, and the work intensity of the other areas is so heavy, and especially with a commercial Civ, gold would be our prime instrument, so economic management is essential.

for example, the Norwegian military has a scandal these days where the budget was broken by 400 million USD, and the Defense Minister will be impeached due to poor economic budgeting. The Army branch was the sinner, as they fired 40 % of their economic planning group, where the Navy preserved their economic planner group, but cut costs other places.
I saw last DG, when we left long term planning, governors built unnecessary units like crazy. What I did was to set a moderate cap on our unit count, and save costs where I could, gaining us 10 % more on the research slider.
I hope you get the point. Military is not just sending out a lot of units when it is war, it is more than that.

When I get in a worse mood I may fish up an example from last game.

Yes, but you consistently misspelled it as "Decreet", so I was confused. :rolleyes:

DS

Decreet is a certain form of decree, whereas The Decree is a defined singular one. So I would not call it a consistent misspelling, it is indeed a correct English word, yet, since these Decreets could vary in nature, I altered it, and since you did not seem to know what it was, I amended it to uncertain form.
You can roll eyes and make smileys all you want, but now you got the definition up at least.

Culture

Culture is weak, and we all know it. The underlying reason is that every time we mention an overriding authority which can make governors build the improvements we need for culture in the correct order, it gets shouted down as handcuffing the governors and demeaning their office. At least as a separate planner, the Culture Consul can force the WOTP to be recognized, if culture is what the majority wants. We tried combining culture with domestic once before, and the result was the governors did whatever they pleased.

Acutally, if you notice I took several steps in my proposal to make culture more powerful. The main one are placing culture incharge of both national and provincial boundaries (so culture is incharge of settlement and formation of provinces), and also allowed them to rush an improvement inside of a city.

This does an excellent job of removing some of the power from Domestic, which has always been far to powerful.

As I said before, this is repetive. If you plan on using the same article about deputies from DG5 (or if you plan on using mine), this will have to be removed.



Once again, not detailed enough. What the hell is long-term? The Domestic Consul will become un-needed by about the midevil ages, so there is atleast one wall in the way of efficiency. The External Counsul is useless also, the tatical people will most likely plan most of the wars and "long-term" foreign affairs is crap. If the counsul even bothers with it, it'll likely just be blown away by a declaration of war.



Mainly just the tradational poistions with acouple merged, not much to screw up on here. Although I can find a hell of alot of mistakes. The Director of Commerce poistion is far to powerful, you mainly took four poistions (foreign affiars, science, trade, and domestic) and merged them together. Trade later on inside of the game is hard enough to do, but having one person handle trade, science, domestic, and foreign affair duties is unrealistic. Meanwhile, you have Infrastructure and expansion, quite possibly the weakest poistion in the entire game, ever if they were put together. Infrastructure is useless, it should be the governors/DP choice as to what we do with our workers. We've tried micromanaging it before, and well... it was obviously removed. Now just one person controlling settlers, might be okay at the start of the game, but by the end it's going to be another useless poistion.

Other than that, you have no one charged with the formation of provinces, you have no single person charged with managing our budget, and you've also left out the spaceship parts. So.... while our Director of Commerce is managing the entire game, Expansion is twiddling his thumbs, and Infrastructure is jumping onto every single pollution spot that appears.

Congratulations, not only have you turned this game from a direct democracy to a represenative democracy, you've also placed all of the power under one person (who doesn't answer to the citizens), and somehow managed to forget why we made provinces in the first place.
Commerce really isnt overpowered, as it must answer to 2/4 of the consuls. Its trades and foreign stuff must fall within the guidelines of the External Consul. Its commerce and research stuff must fall within the guidelines of the resources and technology consul... Infrastructure and expansion only have to listen to domestic consul and armed forces only has to answer to external.

and el next version:
Article X. The government will consist of four branches: the Strategic Branch, Tactical Branch, Judicial Branch, and the General Assembly,


Article X. The Strategic branch consists of the President, the Vice President,
and the Consuls. The Consuls, as listed below, are in tasked with
deciding on the broader picture of how $COUNTRY_NAME will operate. The majority of the Strategic layer's policy is based on discussions and polls.

1. President - Leads discussions crossing over multiple areas of different
Consuls. He/she will also decide on any strategic tasks not designated to
another consul in this constitution. The President is the primary designated player. He/she has the following responsibilities, and may appoint a citizen to oversee a responsibility: Naming of Cities and Units, Elections, and Polling Standards. These appointed officials remain in office until removed by a President.

2. Vice President - Assistant to the President. He/she may take over the
President's tasks when the President is absent. If the President should be
removed from office for any reason the Vice President will then take the position of President and appoint a Vice President. The Vice President must be approved by a majority of the consuls, if the Vice President is appointed mid-term.

3. Consul for Domestic Policy - Oversees long term settlement, long term worker plans, and long term city development objectives. Plans government switches.

4. Consul for External Policy - Oversees long term planning of policy regarding other nations. This includes military plans, long term foreign affairs, and long term trading goals.

5. Consul for Cultural Policy - Monitors culture. Pushes for culture improvements. Fits science and religous improvements into the big picture. Plans wonder strategy.

6. Consul for Resources and Technology Policy - Decides on long term tech queues, long term resource policies, long term fiscal policies.


Article X. The Tactical branch consists of the the officials in charge of micromanagement of the game, within the boundaries of the Strategic layer's policy. The Tactical layer is not required to receive instructions from the people as long as their policy is within that of the Strategic layer's. However any citizen my start a discussion about the decision of a Tactical Leader. The Tactical layer is consisted of the officials below.

1. Commander of Armed Forces - Micromanages the military operations against foreign countries and unit (excluding worker, settler, and non-military transport) movements.

2. Director of Commerce - Decides on foreign affairs and trading. Sets exact tech queue. Manages budget. Adjusts slider and approves/denies requests from leaders regarding the use of gold. Also decides on espionage missions.

3. Director of Infrastructure - Controls the worker actions. Reviews requests from governors about worker requests and accepts/denies these.

4. Director of Expansion - Decides on where to settle with settlers. The Director of Expansion also oversees the creation of provincal boundaries.

5. Governors - Each Governor shall determine any policies and procedures needed to carry out their duties. Governors are responsible for the care, management, use of the cities, and use of lands of a province through the setting of build queues, allocation of laborers on tiles, population rushes and drafting of citizen soldiers.


Article X. The Judiciary or Judicial branch is tasked with upholding, defending, and intereperting the laws of $COUNTRY_NAME. The Judiciary also upholds the rights of all citizens. The Judiciary may create Judicial Procedures which define how the Judiciary will opearte. It must be approved by 2/3 of the justices. This set of laws is lower than the Constitution and Code of Laws, meaning it must be within the boundaries of the constitution.
The Chief Justice, Judge Advocate, and Public defender make up the court.

1. Chief Justice - Organizes and heads the affairs and discussions of the court. May take place of other Justices if there is no pro-term justice.

2. Judge Advocate - Prosecutes Citizen Complaints if the Citizen Complaint is filed anonymously
or the accuser wishes to have the Judge Advocate prosecute. He/she ensures CCs are following
constitution, code of laws, and court procedures guidelines.

3. Public Defender - Acts as Chief Attorney for the accused, unless the accused wishes otherwise.
Ensures the accused understands his/her rights and the accusation.


Article X. The Citizens
The Citizens make up the General Assembly. The General Assembly is tasked with the creation of laws and leading the elected officials. After a law is created or changed by the citizenry, it is presented to the Judiciary to ensure it is following the correct format and is within the constitution.
Mostly followed RF's ideas with a few other small changes...

Commerce really isnt overpowered, as it must answer to 2/4 of the consuls. Its trades and foreign stuff must fall within the guidelines of the External Consul. Its commerce and research stuff must fall within the guidelines of the resources and technology consul... Infrastructure and expansion only have to listen to domestic consul and armed forces only has to answer to external.

Oh, they have to answer to the consuls? Where does it say that? All I see is that they have to follow the consuls general goal.

Nope, it's not in there. All they have to do is somehow do what the consuls say (which is very easy), and there good to go. Complete control over everything.

Also, your "edited" version still lacks every problem I pointed out. All you've managed to do is play word games.

Oh, they have to answer to the consuls? Where does it say that? All I see is that they have to follow the consuls general goal.

Nope, it's not in there. All they have to do is somehow do what the consuls say (which is very easy), and there good to go. Complete control over everything.
they have to listen to 2 consuls, meaning their choices are sqooshed in...

they have to listen to 2 consuls, meaning their choices are sqooshed in...

They don't have to listen to anyone, and there choices are the exact same. They can research every single technology before they research the consuls goal, and still be doing exactly what the consuls decided. Same goes for workers, settlers, and anything else.

It does nothing.

They don't have to listen to anyone, and there choices are the exact same. They can research every single technology before they research the consuls goal, and still be doing exactly what the consuls decided. Same goes for workers, settlers, and anything else.

It does nothing.
im not shur what you mean, lets say the R & T Consul says "Research to Republic First" then the Commerce Director is going to research everything else than go to republic? This could happen without the alternate government, it is just because a leader doesnt listen... usually a CC would be filed...

They don't have to listen to anyone, and there choices are the exact same. They can research every single technology before they research the consuls goal, and still be doing exactly what the consuls decided. Same goes for workers, settlers, and anything else.

It does nothing.

I think you're slighting the hypothetical Consul's intelligence a bit. A more realistic plan would give enough details to prohibit straying from it while leaving the exact means open. For example, "obtain Republic by the most direct available acquisition method".

Too simple (by the way, my detailed comments are not responded to and the smallest common denominator seems to lead the theme of discussions), a long term tech leader would develop the entire research strategy for Term One, and set the criteria allowing the director to choose a deviation from the course. However, this means that the Consul basically drafts one or two plans, depending on the pace of the Term, quite detailed plans, and allow the Director to interpret and act according to this detailed plan.

Mr. Chief Justice Black_Hole,

Your latest articles are riddled with typos. Would you object if I cleaned them up?

Mr. Chief Justice Black_Hole,

Your latest articles are riddled with typos. Would you object if I cleaned them up?
feel free, the only reason i havent checked grammar yet is because I will be updating them
Thanks :goodjob:

Mr. Chief Justice Black_Hole,

Your latest articles are riddled with typos. Would you object if I cleaned them up?

They are not only riddled with typos, but there are several black holes, like defining what is military and non-military transports, which for me is navies in war time and peace time, which also means for example that the Director of Expansion will be in charge of settler escorts AND non military transports (read: Peace time navy). And there are several other key functions in the game omitted. I can see now how people voted for this craftsmanship...

They are not only riddled with typos, but there are several black holes, like defining what is military and non-military transports, which for me is navies in war time and peace time, which also means for example that the Director of Expansion will be in charge of settler escorts AND non military transports (read: Peace time navy). And there are several other key functions in the game omitted. I can see now how people voted for this craftsmanship...
what other functions are missing besides the transport stuff(will be cleaned up)?

I think you're slighting the hypothetical Consul's intelligence a bit. A more realistic plan would give enough details to prohibit straying from it while leaving the exact means open. For example, "obtain Republic by the most direct available acquisition method".

Doing that then eliminates any possibility of changes. What if The Republic is researched and we need to switch? Or something else happens where it would be best to veer off from the direct path for one tech and then get back on?

It's either to much freedom or not enough freedom. Both of which have been proven not to work.

Too simple (by the way, my detailed comments are not responded to and the smallest common denominator seems to lead the theme of discussions), a long term tech leader would develop the entire research strategy for Term One, and set the criteria allowing the director to choose a deviation from the course. However, this means that the Consul basically drafts one or two plans, depending on the pace of the Term, quite detailed plans, and allow the Director to interpret and act according to this detailed plan.

The key is the bolded part. Take alittle while to reflect on this, and then get back to me.

Here is a cleaned up version of Black_Hole's latest revision.

Article X. The government will consist of four branches: Strategic Branch, Tactical Branch, Judicial Branch, and the General Assembly,

Article X. The Strategic Branch consists of the President, the Vice President,
and the Consuls. The Consuls, as listed below, are in tasked with deciding on the broader picture of how $COUNTRY_NAME will operate. The majority of the Strategic Branch's policy is based on discussions and polls.

1. President - Leads discussions crossing over multiple areas of different Consuls. He/she will also decide on any strategic tasks not designated to another consul in this constitution. The President is the primary designated player. He/she has the following responsibilities, and may appoint a citizen to oversee a responsibility: Naming of Cities and Units, Elections, and Polling Standards. These appointed officials remain in office until removed by a President.

2. Vice President - Assistant to the President. He/she may take over the President's tasks when the President is absent. If the President should be removed from office for any reason the Vice President will then take the position of President and appoint a Vice President. The Vice President must be approved by a majority of the consuls, if the Vice President is appointed mid-term.

3. Consul for Domestic Policy - Oversees long term settlement, long term worker plans, and long term city development objectives. Plans government switches.

4. Consul for External Policy - Oversees long term planning of policy regarding other nations. This includes military plans, long term foreign affairs, and long term trading goals.

5. Consul for Cultural Policy - Monitors culture. Pushes for culture improvements. Fits science and religious improvements into the big picture. Plans wonder strategy.

6. Consul for Resources and Technology Policy - Decides on long term tech queues, long term resource policies, long term fiscal policies.

Article X. The Tactical Branch consists of the the officials in charge of micromanagement of the game, within the boundaries of the Strategic Branch's policy. The Tactical Branch is not required to receive instructions from the people as long as their policy is within that of the Strategic Branch. However any citizen my start a discussion about the decision of a Tactical Leader. The Tactical Branch consists of the officials below.

1. Commander of Armed Forces - Micromanages the military operations against foreign countries and unit (excluding worker, settler, and non-military transport) movements.

2. Director of Commerce - Decides on foreign affairs and trading. Sets exact tech queue. Manages budget. Adjusts slider and approves/denies requests from leaders regarding the use of gold. Also decides on espionage missions.

3. Director of Infrastructure - Controls the worker actions. Reviews requests from governors about worker requests and accepts/denies these.

4. Director of Expansion - Decides on where to settle with settlers. The Director of Expansion also oversees the creation of provincal boundaries.

5. Governors - Each Governor shall determine any policies and procedures needed to carry out their duties. Governors are responsible for the care, management, use of the cities, and use of lands of a province through the setting of build queues, allocation of laborers on tiles, population rushes and drafting of citizen soldiers.

Article X. The Judiciary or Judicial Branch is tasked with upholding, defending, and interpreting the laws of $COUNTRY_NAME. The Judiciary also upholds the rights of all citizens. The Judiciary may create Judicial Procedures which define how the Judiciary will operate. These procedures must be approved by 2/3 of the justices. These procedures are lower than the Constitution and Code of Laws, so they must be within the boundaries of the constitution. The Chief Justice, Judge Advocate, and Public defender make up the Judiciary.

1. Chief Justice - Organizes and heads the affairs and discussions of the court. May take place of other Justices if there is no pro-term justice.

2. Judge Advocate - Prosecutes Citizen Complaints if the Citizen Complaint is filed anonymously or the accuser wishes to have the Judge Advocate prosecute. He/she ensures CCs are following constitution, code of laws, and court procedures guidelines.

3. Public Defender - Acts as Chief Attorney for the accused, unless the accused wishes otherwise. Ensures the accused understands his/her rights and the accusation.

Article X. The Citizens
The Citizens make up the General Assembly. The General Assembly is tasked with the creation of laws and leading the elected officials. After a law is created or changed by the citizenry, it is presented to the Judiciary to ensure it is in the correct format and does not violate the constitution.

Too simple (by the way, my detailed comments are not responded to and the smallest common denominator seems to lead the theme of discussions), a long term tech leader would develop the entire research strategy for Term One, and set the criteria allowing the director to choose a deviation from the course. However, this means that the Consul basically drafts one or two plans, depending on the pace of the Term, quite detailed plans, and allow the Director to interpret and act according to this detailed plan.

Provo - I continue to skip your larger posts. Why? You're far too wordy and in love with the written word. Put down the thesaurus, and use brevity. Until then, I skim it at best. When it comes to sharing your ideas, you are your own worst enemy.

You are confusing the role of the consul and the guidelines they will post. To continue with the research example, they are there to plan the full technology plan. Shock - I agree with you about that. Fear not, it's happened before. That plan, however, is NOT supposed to be detailed. That's not their role. They define the longer objectives - the example of "Get Republic immediately, while using the philosophy gambit" is perfect.

The plans that Consuls post should be about 2-3 weeks ahead of the game. Their discussions should be much, much farther ranging in scope. That, however, is not needed for the Directors. That 2-3 weeks is usually 20 - 40 turns worth of instructions - more than enough heads up notice. Combine that with the (hopeful) active participation of the Director in the planning, life is good.

You're last statement, "However, this means that the Consul basically drafts one or two plans, depending on the pace of the Term, quite detailed plans, and allow the Director to interpret and act according to this detailed plan.", is pretty darn close. Remove the "detailed" part, and that's it. Plans should NOT be overly details. The research Consul should not post "Get Alphabet, then Writing, then ...." They provide the goals, the strategy, the long-term objectives for the Directors to meet.

A huge aspect that will be quite interesting to watch is the interaction between Consul and Director that will develop.

-- Ravensfire

There seems to be a misconception that Directors are not subject to WOTP. This is incorrect, on two fronts. First, since the long-term plan posted by the Consuls is derived from WOTP, and the Directors have to follow those plans, the Directors have to follow WOTP. Second, the point was to remove mandatory polling of every single instruction, like we got into last game where all the leaders felt like "glorified polling secretaries". The Directors still need to propose their instructions and have commentary. The people would still have the power to request a poll on something they don't agree with.

There seems to be a misconception that Directors are not subject to WOTP. This is incorrect, on two fronts. First, since the long-term plan posted by the Consuls is derived from WOTP, and the Directors have to follow those plans, the Directors have to follow WOTP. Second, the point was to remove mandatory polling of every single instruction, like we got into last game where all the leaders felt like "glorified polling secretaries". The Directors still need to propose their instructions and have commentary. The people would still have the power to request a poll on something they don't agree with.

No, the directors do not follow the WOTP, they follow the consuls. They listen to the WOTP indirectly, and instead base there decisiosn on what another elected official says. Not only that, but this leaves alot of the detailed and short-term things out of the hands of the citizens. As the consuls only create long-term plans, and they are the only ones subjected to the WOTP.

Tell me, what happens if a Civilization declares war on us? That planning is in the hands of the directors, and the citizens have no say on what the directors are doing, because the citizens can only say what the consuls do. As I doubt the consuls will go into such detail as to find out what will happen if every civ declares war on us, this leaves it up to just the directors.

Your logic is wrong, and your trying to mislead the masses. The directors do not directly answer to the WOTP, as they should. Hell, most of there decisions are short-term things, where the citizens won't even get a single say in!

No, Strider, your logic is wrong. You are trying to mislead the masses.

Simply, I'll direct you to every version of the Constitution proposed thus far, including yours. "Elected officials must plan and act according to the will of the people." Nowhere, in ANY version, does it say that "Elected officials, except for Directors, must plan and act according to the will of the people."

You've got this misconception that Directors get to ignore citizens, and I don't know from where. The intent is that Directors will be working within the plans created by the Consuls so they don't have to poll as often. Much of the discussion and polling will be done by the Consuls. That does not mean, and has never meant, that those responsible for creating the very instructions we expect the DP to follow can (or should) ignore everyone else.

That's (ignoring the people) plain wrong to do, completely foolish and apparently something you've pulled out of thin air.

Director's will have very focused and limited discussions as they implement the plans of the Consuls. I expect that there will be differences on exactly how to implement those plans, and those will require discussions and polls to figure out. They just won't have to reconsider the broad objective.

To summarize, Directors have been, and always will be, subject to the Will of the People clause of the Constitution. They will have discussions. They will have polls. They will ignore the citizens only at risk of a CC over their actions.

-- Ravensfire

No, Strider, your logic is wrong. You are trying to mislead the masses.

Simply, I'll direct you to every version of the Constitution proposed thus far, including yours. "Elected officials must plan and act according to the will of the people." Nowhere, in ANY version, does it say that "Elected officials, except for Directors, must plan and act according to the will of the people."

You've got this misconception that Directors get to ignore citizens, and I don't know from where. The intent is that Directors will be working within the plans created by the Consuls so they don't have to poll as often. Much of the discussion and polling will be done by the Consuls. That does not mean, and has never meant, that those responsible for creating the very instructions we expect the DP to follow can (or should) ignore everyone else.

I know full and well that, however, by allowing the directors the ability to not post polls, is about the same effect. Your basicly telling them that they can do almost anything they want to, well, because your inviting them not to post polls to find the WOTP. Also, as I'm sure you know, the WOTP can change extremely fast, and sometimes it's unclear. So, what if a consul polled something a week ago, and the director follows that poll, even though it's not the current WOTP? Is that not the director not following the WOTP?

Nope, all I see here is me having trouble explaining myself.





To summarize, Directors have been, and always will be, subject to the Will of the People clause of the Constitution. They will have discussions. They will have polls. They will ignore the citizens only at risk of a CC over their actions.

-- Ravensfire

Some clause in the constitution hasn't stopped it before. You can "say" you have found the WOTP with just one or two posts. Also, if they will have polls and discussions, then why is the consuls there? To decide on something that will be decided again by a director a week later?

I know full and well that, however, by allowing the directors the ability to not post polls, is about the same effect. Your basicly telling them that they can do almost anything they want to, well, because your inviting them not to post polls to find the WOTP. Also, as I'm sure you know, the WOTP can change extremely fast, and sometimes it's unclear. So, what if a consul polled something a week ago, and the director follows that poll, even though it's not the current WOTP? Is that not the director not following the WOTP?

Nope, all I see here is me having trouble explaining myself.

Oh my - you have truly raised self-delusion to an art form.

Where, oh master researcher, has ANYONE said that Directors cannot post polls? Oh, that's right, no one has suggested that.

Where, oh master researcher, has ANYONE said that consul plans are static? Oh, that's right, no on has said that.

All I'm seeing, Strider, is your ability to ignore points made countless times.

I'll try this again, maybe you'll understand.

Consuls create and post plans for the new few weeks. These plans are based on on-going discussions and polls on topics their office coveres. These plans are updated as need to reflect changes in the game.

Directors create specific instructions to implement those plans. These directions are created through discussions with citizens and within the constraints of the plans created by the Consuls. This last limitation will greatly reduce the discussions that the Directors need to have because the objective is already known. The only decision is how to get there. It's a tactical focus, Strider. Once you get to that point, there aren't as many decisions that need to be made. Sometimes, the course will be obvious, and won't need polls. Other times, discussions and polls will be needed.

-- Ravensfire

Also, if they will have polls and discussions, then why is the consuls there? To decide on something that will be decided again by a director a week later?
Are you deliberately trying NOT to understand this process? Seriously - I know you are actively trying to undermine, attack, delay and abuse the process, but I assumed you would try to understand it.

For the Nth time, Consuls create long-term plans - the objectives for us to achieve. Directors determine the route to get there.

Research Consul says bee-line to Republic, use Philosophy gambit. Science Consul sets queue as Alphabet, Writing, Philosophy, Literature, Republic.

Any questions on that process?

-- Ravensfire

My only interest here now is to balance out the top heavy consuls somewhat, and make the very thin consuls substantially more balanced. Remember, where you place the powers will influence the number of candidates per post. A concentration of powers in Consul for Trade and Tech, Domestic and External will reduce interest in Culture, in particular Trade and Tech and External needs a thinning down in powers, and we need a counterbalance between FA/TA and the military as we had before. I will reiterate this point over and over again.

Where, oh master researcher, has ANYONE said that Directors cannot post polls? Oh, that's right, no one has suggested that.

Never said anyone did, what I did say is that people have said that directors don't have to post polls.

Where, oh master researcher, has ANYONE said that consul plans are static? Oh, that's right, no on has said that.

So, who makes the choices then? If the consuls polls and discussions will just be over-ran acouple days later. What's the point then? I thought the point was to remove the fickled WOTP (I meant by this, is the WOTP changing constantly on one subject), and allow the directors to focus on one thing, instead of worring about the WOTP changing several days later and there plans being ruined.

Consuls create and post plans for the new few weeks. These plans are based on on-going discussions and polls on topics their office covers. These plans are updated as need to reflect changes in the game.

Directors create specific instructions to implement those plans. These directions are created through discussions with citizens and within the constraints of the plans created by the Consuls. This last limitation will greatly reduce the discussions that the Directors need to have because the objective is already known. The only decision is how to get there. It's a tactical focus, Strider. Once you get to that point, there aren't as many decisions that need to be made. Sometimes, the course will be obvious, and won't need polls. Other times, discussions and polls will be needed.

You've missed my point entirely, so I've bolded the parts that you've said... and proved, that make up my arguement.

Actually, instead of trying to explain my arguement to you again. I'm going to ask acouple of questions to make sure I'm thinking correctly, and if I am, I will then post it.

1) How exactly detailed are a consuls instructions "suppose" to be?

2) You've seem to left out polls, and instead just said "discussions with citizens" was this on purpose or accidental?

3) It will reduce the discussions for who? It seems to me that it will be more discussions, as the consuls post the usual discussions, and then the directors go over some more short-term things. Can you define what you meant by this?

4) Who gets to decide on how to implement a consuls plans? And how?

5) What if we have a director, that instead of going to the citizens for extra information, decides on it himself? I'm talking about a situtation where the problem is not part of an consuls plans. Technically, it is perfectly legal, as the WOTP is not known. However, what if this is a very important decision?

6) What if a directors discussion comes into conflict with a consuls plans?

7) Does the director have the freedom to interpret a consuls plans?

Are you deliberately trying NOT to understand this process? Seriously - I know you are actively trying to undermine, attack, delay and abuse the process, but I assumed you would try to understand it.

For the Nth time, Consuls create long-term plans - the objectives for us to achieve. Directors determine the route to get there.

Research Consul says bee-line to Republic, use Philosophy gambit. Science Consul sets queue as Alphabet, Writing, Philosophy, Literature, Republic.

Any questions on that process?

Yeah... several questions. What if the citizens decide that they want to grab Iron working before getting Philosophy?

What happens when a Civilization reaches philosophy before us?

What happens when an even with a short-term solution happens that contradicts a consuls plans?

1) How exactly detailed are a consuls instructions "suppose" to be?
They are "suppose" to outline the strategic goals and objective without getting overly details. Yup - vague answer for a vague question. There is no single answer. Consul plans should not be detailed to the point of instructions, but have enough information that someone reading them will understand the objectives outlined.

2) You've seem to left out polls, and instead just said "discussions with citizens" was this on purpose or accidental?
No context for this, so I'll answer for both sides. Consuls and Directors will conduct discussions and polls as needed to determine the will of the people and execute the responsibilities of their office. If I missed "and polls" in one or two places - my bad.

3) It will reduce the discussions for who? It seems to me that it will be more discussions, as the consuls post the usual discussions, and then the directors go over some more short-term things. Can you define what you meant by this?
Sure. Most of the discussions from previous DG's would cover two areas - where to go, and how to get there. The objective and the implementation. Consuls answer the "Where to go" question; they determine the objectives. Directors answer the "How to get there" question; they determine how we're going to get there.

There will be some overlap of those discussions, mostly in the Consul area, as people will discuss how to achieve the goals they propose. That's human nature. Good Consuls will keep an eye on things and keep discussions focused. Bad ones will just have longer threads.

The Directors will already have the objective defined, so they will have very focused discussion on how to achieve that objective.

4) Who gets to decide on how to implement a consuls plans? And how?
The Directors will post the instructions in the TCIT. These instructions will be determined with input from all citizens. This is done through discussion and polling as needed.

5) What if we have a director, that instead of going to the citizens for extra information, decides on it himself? I'm talking about a situtation where the problem is not part of an consuls plans. Technically, it is perfectly legal, as the WOTP is not known. However, what if this is a very important decision?
How was that handled in previous DG's? You are asking about a leader deliberately side-stepping/ignoring the people. That's happened before, and can happen in any ruleset.

) What if a directors discussion comes into conflict with a consuls plans?
Directors must follow the objectives presented by the Consuls. If there are conflicts, they can ask for clarification and do the best they can. Same as if a leader in previous DG's has conflicting polls.

7) Does the director have the freedom to interpret a consuls plans?
If a Director has a question about a specific Consul's plans, I expect them to review the discussion thread and/or ask the Consul directly. No Director should be blind-sided by a Consul's plans. They should be following and participating in the Consul discussions. There are going to be times that there are multiple paths to achieve a goal (bee-line to Research; get Philo or Lit first?). Sometimes that choice is obivous (Philo), other times it won't be. That's where discussions and polling will probably come into play.

-- Ravensfire

Yeah... several questions.
What if the citizens decide that they want to grab Iron working before getting Philosophy?
That's going to be in the Consul objectives - get Iron Working, then head for Philosophy. If citizens want to change those objectives after a chat, the Consul starts a new discussion about the change.

What happens when a Civilization reaches philosophy before us?
Well, the gambit failed. If we know about it ahead of time, that's a good opportunity for the research Consul to evaluate the current plans and possibly change them. That's going to happen - game events will alter objectives, we will have to change things mid-stream. We won't, however, have to change everything around. Remember the madness with the FP - much less likely to happen with this process.

What happens when an even with a short-term solution happens that contradicts a consuls plans?
Huh? Please rephrase that question and try again.

-- Ravensfire

Okay, then my full arguement still stands. I'll try to define it as simple as possible to avoid confusion.

It looks to me like it is the directors choice as to whether or not a discussion/poll is needed. I'm guessing that the citizens can still force a leader to post a discussion/poll (or always post it themselves), but it's likely that the problem will never come to the attention of the citizens. If that is so, the director can easily make a decision without being caught. Now, it seems to me that this is part of the entire structure. However, if a discussion/poll is needed, and the director does not post one, what exacly is there to do? Well, eliminating not electing the director again, there isn't much to do. This seems very likely in wonder building, where it is usually the leader who brings up the discussion, and the citizens never think about it.

Also, in my first question, you reply made it sound like your demanding perfection from the consuls. This is illogical, the consuls will miss things from time to time, and it should be part of the structure that a consul might not only posts a plan that is confusing, but that it'll happen often.

Defining an objective is not that hard, a consul can easily say that we have to get Republic through the philsophy gambit, and a director could very easily do that. Except with the possibility of researching Map Making beforehand, it still achieves the objective.

On question #5, the leader in question was no ignoring the WOTP. There was not WOTP to ignore. Would you mind answering this one again?

On question #7, you said what you expected of a director. Would you mind answering this question again also, just instead of what you expect, answer it within the constitutional confines. What law prevents the director by interpreting a consuls plans however they see fit?

#5. You are asking what happens if the leader deliberately avoids seeking the will of the people. Question was asked, and answered. It's handled the same as previous DG's and the "traditional ruleset".

#7. Directors are bidden to follow the objectives set by the Consul, just as we set the expectations that leaders follow the Will of the People. In both cases, if there is ambiguity, the leader in question has to make a decision. In this specific case, there is probably information out there that the Director can review. The Director can also ask (I know - difficult concept, isn't it?) the Consul.

Now, if we have a Director deliberately finding such vague areas and exploiting them to pervert the plans created by the Consul - that's something for a CC.

So Strider, I'll ask you your own questions based on your ruleset.

#1. What prevents a leader from not seeking the WotP on an issue, thus making the call themself. For example, the leader does not post between game sessions, and posts instructions mere hours before the game session. Specifically, what law prevents this.

#2. What prevents a leader from using vague polls and discussions to create gray areas where they can do as they see fit. Specifically, what law prevents this.

-- Ravensfire

This discussion has already died out and gets more and more confusing, we would never see improvements since the Pretorian Guard of the First Draft listens first and foremost to the hardest critics, not to those with minor proposals for improvements.

I agree with Provo. Other than providing an amusing debate between one of the staunchest proponents of the new government and one of the staunchest opponents, nothing constructive is being accomplished. Interesting as it is, I think we've finished establishing the powers of the various offices in the government.

Ash

We still need to adjust the Consuls a bit, we need to divide them into Foreign Affairs, Trade and Culture Consul, Science and Technology Consul, Domestic Consul and a Military Consul. Ash, you know from last game that we really need to think on the long term planning for the military, and I remember you as one of the strongest proponents for using this to stop wild brushfire wars getting out of hand, and other reasons.

Same applies to Directors. Honestly, Strider on the one side and DS and his posse on the other side, do not want to touch their respective "master-pieces" and have crawled down into the trenches and confusing the debate in order to keep us and out input out, they want this to be a head-on-head chicken game. If this goes on, I will ask everyone their opinion, but the far wings, and ask these last.

Ash

We still need to adjust the Consuls a bit, we need to divide them into Foreign Affairs, Trade and Culture Consul, Science and Technology Consul, Domestic Consul and a Military Consul. Ash, you know from last game that we really need to think on the long term planning for the military, and I remember you as one of the strongest proponents for using this to stop wild brushfire wars getting out of hand, and other reasons.

Same applies to Directors. Honestly, Strider on the one side and DS and his posse on the other side, do not want to touch their respective "master-pieces" and have crawled down into the trenches and confusing the debate in order to keep us and out input out, they want this to be a head-on-head chicken game. If this goes on, I will ask everyone their opinion, but the far wings, and ask these last.
i know you say you know, but you keep bringing this up. wait until after first term to modify the offices like that! you keep saying you know, but you have to always bring it up

btw, thanks YNCS! :goodjob:

#1. What prevents a leader from not seeking the WotP on an issue, thus making the call themself. For example, the leader does not post between game sessions, and posts instructions mere hours before the game session. Specifically, what law prevents this.

Article D. sets it as a leaders responsibility to determine and implement the will of the people. Part of there job, if they don't do it then they can be impeached.

Article D. The Executive Branch
The Executive branch is responsible for determining and implementing the will of the People, and is headed by the President. The President is charged with organizing and monitoring the affairs of the Ministers, and is also the primary designated player. The President shall take direction from a council of leaders and from other elected and appointed officials via the turnchat instruction thread, including worker actions. The President is also charged with appointing citizens to uncontested elections, the election office, and the Naming Commission.

#2. What prevents a leader from using vague polls and discussions to create gray areas where they can do as they see fit. Specifically, what law prevents this.

Article O. says that a leader must post enough information for the citizens to make an informed decision of a subject. I don't go into greater detail here over what the punishment might be. I figured I'd leave it up to the Judiciary Court Procedures.

Article O. Freedom of Information
All elected/appointed officials are charged with the duty to post enough information for the citizens to make a informed decision. This includes information from the save, discussions, and past polls. Any citizen of the demogame may demand a minister to supply more information. A elected official may appoint a citizen to do this task for them.

Section 1.Ministry Threads
Each Minister shall post a basic department update, every turnchat, inside of there respective Ministry thread. This update must include information about the progress of the minister and there respective duties.

------------

Simple enough, I've got Articles prohibately banning the actions in question. However, you can not just ban the action, because what would be the point of long-term strategy if the directors just discuss and poll everything anyway?

I've thought of almost everything possible, even made culture more powerful by allowing them control of settlers and the formation of provinces. If you find anything that I'm missing, point it out, I'll try to fix it.

We will modify this DURING term one, so we got better Term 2 elections. We are NOT waiting till AFTER Term 1, since then reforms will only count for Term 3.

should we poll these now or are there more things that need to be fixed?

Poll it.

Everything else needs to be an Amendment. This has been filibustered long enough.

-- Ravensfire

Mock Poll

Do you approve of the following articles?
Yes
No
Abstain

Article X. The government will consist of four branches: Strategic Branch, Tactical Branch, Judicial Branch, and the General Assembly,

Article X. The Strategic Branch consists of the President, the Vice President,
and the Consuls. The Consuls, as listed below, are in tasked with deciding on the broader picture of how $COUNTRY_NAME will operate. The majority of the Strategic Branch's policy is based on discussions and polls.

1. President - Leads discussions crossing over multiple areas of different Consuls. He/she will also decide on any strategic tasks not designated to another consul in this constitution. The President is the primary designated player. He/she has the following responsibilities, and may appoint a citizen to oversee a responsibility: Naming of Cities and Units, Elections, and Polling Standards. These appointed officials remain in office until removed by a President.

2. Vice President - Assistant to the President. He/she may take over the President's tasks when the President is absent. If the President should be removed from office for any reason the Vice President will then take the position of President and appoint a Vice President. The Vice President must be approved by a majority of the consuls, if the Vice President is appointed mid-term.

3. Consul for Domestic Policy - Oversees long term settlement, long term worker plans, and long term city development objectives. Plans government switches.

4. Consul for External Policy - Oversees long term planning of policy regarding other nations. This includes military plans, long term foreign affairs, and long term trading goals.

5. Consul for Cultural Policy - Monitors culture. Pushes for culture improvements. Fits science and religious improvements into the big picture. Plans wonder strategy.

6. Consul for Resources and Technology Policy - Decides on long term tech queues, long term resource policies, long term fiscal policies.

Article X. The Tactical Branch consists of the the officials in charge of micromanagement of the game, within the boundaries of the Strategic Branch's policy. The Tactical Branch is not required to receive instructions from the people as long as their policy is within that of the Strategic Branch. However any citizen my start a discussion about the decision of a Tactical Leader. The Tactical Branch consists of the officials below.

1. Commander of Armed Forces - Micromanages the military operations against foreign countries and unit (excluding worker, settler, and non-military transport) movements.

2. Director of Commerce - Decides on foreign affairs and trading. Sets exact tech queue. Manages budget. Adjusts slider and approves/denies requests from leaders regarding the use of gold. Also decides on espionage missions.

3. Director of Infrastructure - Controls the worker actions. Reviews requests from governors about worker requests and accepts/denies these.

4. Director of Expansion - Decides on where to settle with settlers. The Director of Expansion also oversees the creation of provincal boundaries.

5. Governors - Each Governor shall determine any policies and procedures needed to carry out their duties. Governors are responsible for the care, management, use of the cities, and use of lands of a province through the setting of build queues, allocation of laborers on tiles, population rushes and drafting of citizen soldiers.

Article X. The Judiciary or Judicial Branch is tasked with upholding, defending, and interpreting the laws of $COUNTRY_NAME. The Judiciary also upholds the rights of all citizens. The Judiciary may create Judicial Procedures which define how the Judiciary will operate. These procedures must be approved by 2/3 of the justices. These procedures are lower than the Constitution and Code of Laws, so they must be within the boundaries of the constitution. The Chief Justice, Judge Advocate, and Public defender make up the Judiciary.

1. Chief Justice - Organizes and heads the affairs and discussions of the court. May take place of other Justices if there is no pro-term justice.

2. Judge Advocate - Prosecutes Citizen Complaints if the Citizen Complaint is filed anonymously or the accuser wishes to have the Judge Advocate prosecute. He/she ensures CCs are following constitution, code of laws, and court procedures guidelines.

3. Public Defender - Acts as Chief Attorney for the accused, unless the accused wishes otherwise. Ensures the accused understands his/her rights and the accusation.

Article X. The Citizens
The Citizens make up the General Assembly. The General Assembly is tasked with the creation of laws and leading the elected officials. After a law is created or changed by the citizenry, it is presented to the Judiciary to ensure it is in the correct format and does not violate the constitution.

Note: This poll will be open for 3 days.

Mock Poll #2

Do you approve of the following articles?
Yes
No
Abstain

Article X. The government will consist of four branches: Strategic Branch, Tactical Branch, Judicial Branch, and the General Assembly,

Article X. The Strategic Branch consists of the President, the Vice President,
and the Consuls. The Consuls, as listed below, are in tasked with deciding on the broader picture of how $COUNTRY_NAME will operate.
1. President - Leads discussions crossing over multiple areas of different Consuls. He/she will also decide on any strategic tasks not designated to another consul in this constitution. The President is the primary designated player. He/she has the following responsibilities, and may appoint a citizen to oversee a responsibility: Naming of Cities and Units, Elections, and Polling Standards. These appointed officials remain in office until removed by a President.

2. Vice President - Assistant to the President. He/she may take over the President's tasks when the President is absent. If the President should be removed from office for any reason the Vice President will then take the position of President and appoint a Vice President. The Vice President must be approved by a majority of the consuls, if the Vice President is appointed mid-term.

3. Consul for Domestic Policy - Oversees long term settlement, long term worker plans, and long term city development objectives. Plans government switches.

4. Consul for External Policy - Oversees long term planning of policy regarding other nations. This includes military plans, long term foreign affairs, and long term trading goals.

5. Consul for Cultural Policy - Monitors culture. Pushes for culture improvements. Fits science and religious improvements into the big picture. Plans wonder strategy.

6. Consul for Resources and Technology Policy - Decides on long term tech queues, long term resource policies, long term fiscal policies.

Article X. The Tactical Branch consists of the the officials in charge of micromanagement of the game, within the boundaries of the Strategic Branch's policy. The Tactical Branch consists of the officials below.

1. Commander of Armed Forces - Micromanages the military operations against foreign countries and unit (excluding worker, settler, and non-military transport) movements.

2. Director of Commerce - Decides on foreign affairs and trading. Sets exact tech queue. Manages budget. Adjusts slider and approves/denies requests from leaders regarding the use of gold. Also decides on espionage missions.

3. Director of Infrastructure - Controls the worker actions. Reviews requests from governors about worker requests and accepts/denies these.

4. Director of Expansion - Decides on where to settle with settlers. The Director of Expansion also oversees the creation of provincal boundaries.

5. Governors - Each Governor shall determine any policies and procedures needed to carry out their duties. Governors are responsible for the care, management, use of the cities, and use of lands of a province through the setting of build queues, allocation of laborers on tiles, population rushes and drafting of citizen soldiers.

Article X. The Judiciary or Judicial Branch is tasked with upholding, defending, and interpreting the laws of $COUNTRY_NAME. The Judiciary also upholds the rights of all citizens. The Judiciary may create Judicial Procedures which define how the Judiciary will operate. These procedures must be approved by 2/3 of the justices. These procedures are lower than the Constitution and Code of Laws, so they must be within the boundaries of the constitution. The Chief Justice, Judge Advocate, and Public defender make up the Judiciary.

1. Chief Justice - Organizes and heads the affairs and discussions of the court. May take place of other Justices if there is no pro-term justice.

2. Judge Advocate - Prosecutes Citizen Complaints if the Citizen Complaint is filed anonymously or the accuser wishes to have the Judge Advocate prosecute. He/she ensures CCs are following constitution, code of laws, and court procedures guidelines.

3. Public Defender - Acts as Chief Attorney for the accused, unless the accused wishes otherwise. Ensures the accused understands his/her rights and the accusation.

Article X. The Citizens
The Citizens make up the General Assembly. The General Assembly is tasked with the creation of laws and leading the elected officials. After a law is created or changed by the citizenry, it is presented to the Judiciary to ensure it is in the correct format and does not violate the constitution.

Note: This poll will be open for 3 days.

If there are no objections, the poll will be posted in about 12-13 hours(when i wake up)

Black Hole, you forgot to make this explicit,
Director of Armed forces: Navy in Wartime
Director of Expansion: Settler movements, Escort movements and Navy in Peacetime

You said you would fix this, but oyu did not.
You also forgot Science Leaders, Military Leaders, War Economy, Mobilization, Drafts and several other things. If you read more of the posts openly, all these things should have been included.

Black Hole, you forgot to make this explicit,
Director of Armed forces: Navy in Wartime
Director of Expansion: Settler movements, Escort movements and Navy in Peacetime

You said you would fix this, but oyu did not.
You also forgot Science Leaders, Military Leaders, War Economy, Mobilization, Drafts and several other things. If you read more of the posts openly, all these things should have been included.
if you would have put this post I would have found it out, but you put it into 10 paragraphs of explanation
I will add these in a bit

Mock Poll #3

Do you approve of the following articles?
Yes
No
Abstain

Article X. The government will consist of four branches: Strategic Branch, Tactical Branch, Judicial Branch, and the General Assembly,

Article X. The Strategic Branch consists of the President, the Vice President,
and the Consuls. The Consuls, as listed below, are in tasked with deciding on the broader picture of how $COUNTRY_NAME will operate.
1. President - Leads discussions crossing over multiple areas of different Consuls. He/she will also decide on any strategic tasks not designated to another consul in this constitution. The President is the primary designated player. He/she has the following responsibilities, and may appoint a citizen to oversee a responsibility: Naming of Cities and Units, Elections, and Polling Standards. These appointed officials remain in office until removed by a President. The President also leads discussion on how to use military and scientific great leaders.

2. Vice President - Assistant to the President. He/she may take over the President's tasks when the President is absent. If the President should be removed from office for any reason the Vice President will then take the position of President and appoint a Vice President. The Vice President must be approved by a majority of the consuls, if the Vice President is appointed mid-term.

3. Consul for Domestic Policy - Oversees long term settlement, long term worker plans, and long term city development objectives. Plans government switches.

4. Consul for External Policy - Oversees long term planning of policy regarding other nations. This includes military plans, long term foreign affairs, and long term trading goals.

5. Consul for Cultural Policy - Monitors culture. Pushes for culture improvements. Fits science and religious improvements into the big picture. Plans wonder strategy.

6. Consul for Resources and Technology Policy - Decides on long term tech queues, long term resource policies, long term fiscal policies.

Article X. The Tactical Branch consists of the the officials in charge of micromanagement of the game, within the boundaries of the Strategic Branch's policy. The Tactical Branch consists of the officials below.

1. Commander of Armed Forces - Micromanages the military operations against foreign countries and unit (excluding worker, settler, and non-military transport) movements.

2. Director of Commerce - Decides on foreign affairs and trading. Sets exact tech queue. Manages budget. Adjusts slider and approves/denies requests from leaders regarding the use of gold. Also decides on espionage missions.

3. Director of Infrastructure - Controls the worker actions. Reviews requests from governors about worker requests and accepts/denies these.

4. Director of Expansion - Decides on where to settle with settlers. The Director of Expansion also oversees the creation of provincal boundaries. Controls movement of settlers and settler carrying transports.

5. Governors - Each Governor shall determine any policies and procedures needed to carry out their duties. Governors are responsible for the care, management, use of the cities, and use of lands of a province through the setting of build queues, allocation of laborers on tiles, population rushes and drafting of citizen soldiers.

Article X. The Judiciary or Judicial Branch is tasked with upholding, defending, and interpreting the laws of $COUNTRY_NAME. The Judiciary also upholds the rights of all citizens. The Judiciary may create Judicial Procedures which define how the Judiciary will operate. These procedures must be approved by 2/3 of the justices. These procedures are lower than the Constitution and Code of Laws, so they must be within the boundaries of the constitution. The Chief Justice, Judge Advocate, and Public defender make up the Judiciary.

1. Chief Justice - Organizes and heads the affairs and discussions of the court. May take place of other Justices if there is no pro-term justice.

2. Judge Advocate - Prosecutes Citizen Complaints if the Citizen Complaint is filed anonymously or the accuser wishes to have the Judge Advocate prosecute. He/she ensures CCs are following constitution, code of laws, and court procedures guidelines.

3. Public Defender - Acts as Chief Attorney for the accused, unless the accused wishes otherwise. Ensures the accused understands his/her rights and the accusation.

Article X. The Citizens
The Citizens make up the General Assembly. The General Assembly is tasked with the creation of laws and leading the elected officials. After a law is created or changed by the citizenry, it is presented to the Judiciary to ensure it is in the correct format and does not violate the constitution.

Note: This poll will be open for 3 days.

things to note:
drafting citizens was already in there provo, i didnt put mobilization in because that will require more discussion and can be amended before it will be used...
leaders put under president
settler movement put under director of expansion

The poll is up at:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=113577