Difficulty = Emperor
Civilization = Iroquois
Map = Pangea
Barbs = off
World Size = Standard 80%

Variant AW, Soft OCC. We can capture cities and abandon before turn ends (for Armies).

I also favor barbs this time. I think we will need the cash. My choice for civs in order are Iroquois, Persia, Greece, Japan, Ottomans. I think the last 2 UUs are delayed too long to be effective but they are very strong. I suspect we will lose this one on standard map but MM2 was so easy I think it is worth uping size and level.

Mark
Aggie
Bed Head 7
Akots
Greebley

I want to join!

I'd go for small/emperor - not standard. That said, I don't mind standard too much.

I like choose Iroquois or Greece. Though elite hoplites are too strong in the ancient age. But Greece would allow Colossus if we ever get enough rest for that that is.

You don't like Persia? I'm almost thinking they are my first choice as I think we will want to use more pults this time to keep losses down so a slow moving SoD may be better, and the immortal is somewhat effective till Nationalism.

Persia is great, but I don't like slow units that much. But no objection against them!

Congrats on winning the Monarch game :goodjob: and good luck on Emperor. :crazyeye:

Congrats on winning the Monarch game :goodjob: and good luck on Emperor. :crazyeye:

I second Coffee's thoughts. I will be watching the Empreror game also.

I'm in again. I would prefer speed in our UU if possible, but a slow SoD is fine with me if we want to go with Persia.

I might be very tempted but please, lets consider settings and civ with caution.

IMO, cash would not be much of the problem but shields very well might. However it is a complete unknown. Hoplites are good though as well as Mounted warriors or Legions. However, Commerical trait is rather useless and Agricultural somewhat either. Militaristic might be useful though.

Barbs may hurt us more than benefit. First, AIs will get free techs from huts. Second, our colonies will not be safe and would need some guarding all the time.

Another thing I don't like is soft OCC variant so that we will be able to build an army. It might be that we need it but on the other hand, it might be better to try without it and use some more mild settings and AI civs which are less powerful. For example, Standard with 80% water is OK but the AIs will have few cities with low corruption in this settings. It might be also that small with 60% water is more reasonable since land area will be the same but AIs will have more cities with higher corruption. On the other hand, if aggressive setting are on maximum, this would mean that in the latter case AIs will go to war with each other substantially later.

Regarding this, I'm thinking of Persia as well but we would not have a fair chance at Philo race on a Standard map. Hence seems that Rome is a great choice but we don't have Pottery and BW for colossus. Byzantines offer a great advantage as well since they would get BW and chance at Philo as well But they would be no powerful enough UU and Dromons seem to be rather far away though extra commerce in the city center should help somewhat.

It is also a good idea to look for a really good start with some kind of choke point, river, and bonus grassland instead of plains. May be a gold hill on which to build the city as well as a food bonus.

I will play.

I much prefer the Standard size map even if we make the game easier in some other way. Small maps are just much easier for AW. Its one of the reason we could whomp across the world so quickly in the last game. The 80% land also meant the civs stayed small. 70% land would be very challenging and may take several attempts to get a win.

I don't mind Barbs. They are extra cash. Don't mind no barb either.

Any of the civs listed are ok for me. I will vote for Persia, but it is not a strong Preference.

@Akots. I really want the army option for this one. I realize it is unbalancing but we will have enough restrictions on us and it is not that easy to capture 3 cities and only 1 army is not too powerful IMO. Let's do soft OCC with 70% land. I will be surprised if we win. As far as start I'll be happy to go through many starts to try and get some that people like. I think our last one was quite strong but a workable gold or lux would be good also. I want costal river that can make 20 shields @ size 12 with some lux/gold workable and food bonus of course.

As for barbs. I am considering this. The early techs for the AI are the biggest concern but after that don't you think they will generate at least 5-10 gpt? That's as much as Colossus and we will want to protect our colonies anyway.

As for civ it looks like Iroquois get 3 votes. They have the advantage of starting with alphabet so Philo run should be doable and alpha is good trading material, Ag + food bonus should give fast growth on river. I guess we would just go then with a swarm of mounties without cat support. The retreat should help preserve units when taking cities.

Open for discussion: Barbs. Off or roaming

Pro: 5-10gpt.
con: PITA. early tech bonus for AI.

I think that is my favorite too. Soft OCC with 70% land.

Iro may be good but what about the Colossus? I'm still thinking of strict OCC. I just don't like the armies and we should not use this feature which is basically a bug in the game and nothing else. We can always decrease the difficulty later on after losing on this one but it should not happen since it will be probably won on 80% water coverage with Iro.

Assembling a great team is more important to me than the exact settings. That said, I don't see a difference between an army and an elite hoplite. Both can be considered a 'cheat' in akots' reasoning.

Assembling a great team is more important to me than the exact settings. That said, I don't see a difference between an army and an elite hoplite. Both can be considered a 'cheat' in akots' reasoning.

:lol:

I just noticed I'm placed as maybe in the roster. No, I'm too weak to resist and temptation is too great. :)

Besides, a possibility of capturing 3 cities on the very same turn in this game while having MGL on hand and ready at the very same turn seems rather remote to me. We better use this MGL to hurry some improvement like market or library. Well, anything can happen later in the game but by then a single army will not matter too much imho. If we can agree to not deliberately building all the game strategy on this, that would be sufficient.

What I'm thinking is "eternal glory". Even if we don't build the army, there is still a possibility that lurkers would say something like: "No, this is not a good game, they have armies allowed and bended the OCC rules to their benefit." But even if we lose, they would say: "Great and honorable death it was, they have not even tried to build an army and did not bend the rules. Alas, this might be not possible with the settings they used." But by no means please consider this rant seriously. I'm fine either way. Good start is more important. With argi trait we can have granary and two workers as soon as possible, so mining bonus grassland can be accomplished within reasonable time.

I'm not too worried about how others look at this game. They could also say that it shouldn't be allowed to make contact first in an Always War game. To me that's the in the same league as allowing cities in a turn. But that's just me. To me it's more important that we stick to the variant rules and don't deviate when things are going wrong.

Both AG10 and AG13 could have been won without armies. They appear to be more helpful in an AW, but I doubt that we ever get the opportunity when we really need one. If we get there we are in a great position anyway. Capturing 3 cities in an turn in AW shows that you are doing fine.

a possibility of capturing 3 cities on the very same turn in this game while having MGL on hand and ready at the very same turn seems rather remote to me.

Well, check out AG9 and AG13. We had 2 armies in the end.

Sorry, I play tested a few spots and didn't like them and I will be out of town so this will start next monday. I am reducing land to 20%. I think that a win even with these conditions will be crazy hard.

4000BC: Road ivory, step to coast.

3950: Found Sala Start WC. Road ivory

Build warrior, warrior, currgah explore with currgah, keep warriors at home.

3100: WC in start Masonry for Math and SoZ.

3000: Meet Arabia, they are up Mas, BW and CB. No Deals. Declare.

Granary is gambit and can be changed to barracks at no loss. I wanted to get the growth early and pull off 5 extra workers at size 6 and merge them back in to size 12 with fast improvement of all tiles. Also Currgah is for early contact. I did a few test games and research time on Emp isolated is too slow relative to AIs. I think we need to just get all the contacts and get on with it. The SoZ is a must in this game. Also GL a must with Colossus very nice and doable. I would advocate Math next then build SoZ. Then trade or research BW and build Colossus and then go writing/philo or Lit. If we wait to build MWs we can get a Monarchy GA. I know this is rather unorthadox but that is my view, feel free to trash it. We will not be doing much but defense for a while.


Mark
Aggie UP Take 20 then 10t/player
Bed Head 7 ON DECK
Akots
Greebley

i don't think you can afford to build SoZ before colossus if you want the giant statue. i'd build colossus first , it's more likely to get both if you take this way, maybe nobody else has ivory.

This is a custom map? That cow at least shouldn't be there...

It's a random map but I added the cow as I just got tired of going through maps looking for one with all the features we discussed. If that's too cheesy for everybody we could just go with this site without the cow. I really don't think the food bonus is as important as the commerce and the ivory. It's just very hard to find coastal rivers with food bonus and luxuries on a pangea map. If you don't like this map with or without the cow may be somebody else could generate a few and we could vote. I do think ivory is critical for the SoZ.

I would prefer a non-edited map. But will go with the majority.

I personally would go with this one without the cow. I went through over 50 maps and this is the best I saw (IMO) even w/o the cow. The commerce is excellent and it is at the end of the continent so nicely defensable (also won't the sugar go to 3 fpt irrigated in Monarchy?). I just don't think we can get a natural spot with all the things we want and I don't think the food bonus is really that important with 1 city.

I rather fail miserably with an unchanged map than win with extra resources put onto it. I know how difficult it is to get a good OCC start, but making it extra good lowers the difficulty level to less than emperor imvho.

OK I will redo with natural start (cow was only change). I don't think it makes that much difference anyway, the commerce here is huge and food/shields should be fine.

OK same as last time with natural start (80% water, cold, dry, 5 mill age, respawn OFF, no barbs, random opponents)

4000BC: Road ivory, step to coast.

3950: Found Sala Start WC.

Build warrior, warrior, currgah explore with currgah, keep warriors at home.

3100: WC in start BW

Granary can be changed to barracks at no loss or completed if no immediate danger. I would go for Mas->math next for SoZ. Would be nice to pull off some workers @ size 6 for rapid improvement and reintegration and growth at size 7.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MM3-3000BC.JPG

Mark
Aggie UP Take 20 then 10t/player
Akots On Deck
Greebley
Bed Head 7

Got it. Playing now.

IHT: I MM a tiny bit to have the city grow one turn faster.

Turn 1 (2950 BC) It's very scary, but I send our curragh next to orange borders.

Turn 2 (2900 BC) England has BW and Masonry. I declare war on England without being able to trade.

Turn 3 (2850 BC) :sleep:

IT: granary->barracks. Two English warriors go south. Towards us?

Turn 4 (2800 BC) Science to 80%. BW in 3.

Turn 5, 6 (2750, 2710 BC) :sleep:

IT: We discover BW.

Turn 7 (2670 BC) Masonry on max (14 turns, -1 gpt with 22 gold).

Turn 8, 9 (2630, 2590 BC) :sleep:

IT: barracks->archer.

Turn 10 (2550 BC) :sleep:

Turn 11 (2510 BC) Size 5 city needs 10% lux.

IT: Archer->archer. We are running on -3gpt and have 15 gold.

Turn 12 (2470 BC) Archer climbs a mountain.

Turn 13 (2430 BC) :sleep:

IT: archer->archer.

Turn 14 (2390 BC) Science to 70%. Masonry in 7 at -1gpt with 9 gold.

IT: Three English warriors appear.

Turn 15 (2350 BC) We meet the Inca, up Masonry and The Wheel. No trades possible. I declare war on the Inca. It made Masonry cheaper. 60% science brings us this tech in 5.

IT: archer->archer.

Turn 16 (2310 BC) Size 6 Salamanca needs 20% tax. Science to 50%. Vet archer kills reg warrior [1-0].

Turn 17 (2270 BC) Vet archer kills reg warrior, losing one HP. [2-0]

IT: Two new English warriors show up. Archer->archer.

Turn 18 (2230 BC) vet archer kills reg warrior, losing 3 HP. [3-0]

Turn 19 (2190 BC) 2 vet archers kill reg warriors, losing 3 and 2 HP. [5-0]

Masonry->Math. Archer->Colossus(?)

Turn 20 (2150 BC) We meet China, up The Wheel and CB. I declare war on China without trading. Math takes 50 turns without deficit. So I go min science.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MM3-2150BCmap.jpg

Should not we be running trying to kill England while there is still such possibility?

Yes, that might be good. The coast appears to be clear now...

With 3 civs coming at us it will be harder to do. That is the downside of meeting other civs. Its worth trying to do of course.

We may want to avoid the capitol though. Bad RNG and we lose all our troops doing no damage.

They are pretty far away to do much damage with just a handfull of archers. It would be nice though to set up a kill zone away from our city to allow us to do colossus in peace and maybe wack some settlers.

Also, We might not want to meet all the civs but leave maybe 2 unmet so they can hopefully war with each other (agression is Max BTW). Just enough to keep the tech rates reasonable. I would favor ignoring wheel and HBR and going straight to writing/lit. Build GL and hopefully get Monarchy and then start our GA. I think we should be able to pull 30 shields in GA and build 20 MW. Along with the AC we build up during this period it should be enough to begin doing some damage although we might be facing pikes by then. Once we have a market our biggest concern will be having enough units as opposed to cash. For now if we can develop a defensive perimeter and effecient kill zone I would be happy. The key will be being able to do 1-turn units. Build up pults/spears/archers @ 20spt, then MWs during GA then :hammer:.

Everything looks OK, all quiet, move one archer east. I’m not sure that building Colossus now is a good idea though, does not seem to be safe for 19 turns. We might be better off archer-rushing England.

[2] “Archers, forward” – this is the war cry from Lord of the Realms II iirc.

[4] Kill English warrior. Blue borders spotted to the NE – must be Maya. This is not a pleasant neighbor.

[5] We meet Aztec warrior, no deals are possible, war is shortly declared. Also, yellow border spotted but no contacts are possible yet. This must be mighty Shaka.

[6] English spear killed, our archer goes elite.

[8] Our boat stumbles upon Zulu warrior, no trades possible, war declared. These AIs are rather advanced for Emperor level. I don’t think further advance with the boat is worth it. American border spotted but no contact can be made. This is a bit too risky and hence the boat is disbanded to save on upkeep costs.

[9] Inca advance with a few warriors.

[10] Actually, a few turns to be 4 regulars. I decide to cowardly retreat to have all archers within range since they could be attacked only with 2 this turn. Colossus ready in 6 and growth in 7. We are making 13 spt and 7gpt. Math can be researched in 23 turns at 50% losing 1gpt. IMHO, chances for Philo race are rather slim in this situation but always still worth a try.

The glorious city of Salamanca:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/OCC-AWE-1750BC.JPG

Current military disposition, not in our favor. But we still don't have contact with Maya.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/OCC-AWE-1750BCa.JPG

Finally, SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MM3-1750BC.SAV).

Everything looks OK, all quiet, move one archer east. I’m not sure that building Colossus now is a good idea though, does not seem to be safe for 19 turns. We might be better off archer-rushing England.

I wouldn't have objected. I just started building Colossus...

IMO, we can finish it but I doubt we will be able to build SoZ or TGL.

I got it.

The number of contacts is very worrisome. It sounds like we explored way too quickly.

You are probably right Greebley. I am a relative AW newbie and followed the suggestions...

Yes I think Greebley is probably right. Sorry it was my suggestion. I tried a few tests of this on other maps and the tech pace was brutal w/o some contacts. I can;t believe we couldn't get a single trade. I was thinking that far away civs met by curggah would not be too big a problem, having the Maya on our doorstep will be a big problem though. So far it looks OK. I think we are doomed w/o both the SoZ and TGL.

So far it looks OK. I think we are doomed w/o both the SoZ and TGL.

I agree :)

IMO, we can finish it but I doubt we will be able to build SoZ or TGL.
IIRC a military leader can rush small wonders such as SoZ or the forbidden palace. :scan:

SoZ is a BIG wonder :(

Yep, looks like insane variant to me.

If we can keep avoiding Maya for a few more turns, that would be nice indeed. If nobody else has ivory which is apparently the case, we can go full throttle with archers and build SoZ later. Still my preference will be MoM over SoZ since it will allow the city to grow unless we have luxuries in the south. Running 20% luxuries at size 7 is no fun absolutely. And growth is due soon as well. Having colony on furs will be nice but it will not be a safe place.

Not sure if we have an ivory monoply but I would get the SoZ up ASAP anyway for the units. After we have some $$ I would up math res to get it going. I think the AC will be indespensible and a nice combo with our MWs. Also gives us some unit support during the GL build. I doubt we can do Philo 1st so MoM is unlikely and not really necessary IMO. Also, after Col completes I would pull off some workers for faster improvement and add them back to size 12. We should get to 20 spt ASAP.

Do we have wheel yet?

No and I don't think we have time to research it and get the GL.

SoZ is a BIG wonder :( Well that really sucks :D

In that case I think you should burn some cash to get math and mm for Zuess now. Then go the wheel and HBR, starting the colosus with your golden age. I figure the AC=MW or 30 shields, so Zuess gives 6spt. My nickel. Good game win or lose. :goodjob:

Full speed can bring us Math only in 20 turns or so, hence the SoZ option now is not possible. Colossus though seems good enough. IMO, we would have to research Wheel and HBR ourselves and forget about philo race. This kills the commercial trait advantage of starting with Alpha however but still we can pick up Writing later at reduced cost and go for Literature. It would be clear then if we can survive or not.

Preturn: 23 turns is too long. I switch to the wheel in 8. It looks like we haven't done much research yet. We will need our fast units to do anything.

IBT: An English Archer and a stack of Warriors show up

1725 BC: Retreat

IBT: A Mayan steps onto the hill so we meet them. Bad luck there. We declare war.

1700 BC:

1675 BC: We kill 3 out of 4 Warriors. For the last our archer dies.

IBT: 3 Chinese Warriors are seen.

1650 BC:

1625 BC: Kill 2 out of 3 Chinese Warriors. We don't attack the last as we would attacked back.

IBT: Build Colossus and start Spear.

1600 BC:

IBT: Get Wheel. There are horses a short distance away. Start on HBR.

1575 BC:

IBT: Build a spear and start a Worker.

1550 BC: Kill a Warrior/Settler pair and get 2 workers.

IBT: Build Worker and start Archer

1525 BC: Our 4hp archer attacks and loses vs a 3 hp Warrior on flat. Grrr!

1500 BC: Attack the 2 hp warrior on flat with another 4 hp Archer and we lose without even doing a point of Damage.
Attack another warrior with our Elite and win.

Notes:
I felt Math was just too long a time to go for right away. Went for HBR since it was much faster. I think we should discuss if we want Math or Writing next. Math may be good for Cats and we can consider SoZ. Or we can try for the GLib and hope we have time to build it.

On the plus side noone will demand Lit if we get it early :D

We are working on the road. I guess we will have horses in 3-4 turns.

I got really bad RNG. 3 losses when attacking with healthy attack 2 vet archers vs defense 1 regular warriors on flat terrain. We were never attacked.

We have 2 Archers, 1 Reg Warriors, and a Spear.

Settlers are incoming. Keep an eye out to defend the Horses. The northern
lands will be taken by Aztecs in 1-2 turns. I saw the settler.

We need speed 2 units to hold the choke. Otherwise, we can't attack and then retreat. I had to fall back.

Edit: Not sure if I checked whether we could reduce Science the last turn.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MM3_BC1500.JPG

Looks like archers won't cut it. Well I was hoping to hold off on the MWs but I guess we might be dead by then. I was thinking that with archers/spears/pults we could do 1-turn units @ size 12 in despo and save our GA using the SoZ for fast units. Time to go on the war path I guess.

Bed Head7 is up but I think is away for a few days so I will take it tonight if he doesn't.

Any suggestions on next res. Math and SoZ or writing/lit??

I'd go SoZ first and if there's room TGL later. But that's just me. I think we have a shot at both. I really don''t care about MoM.

We need some troops before we get SoZ. Otherwise we are going to have to switch mid-build at a large loss. Our current forces are not enough to keep off the enemy for long enough.
I was thinking we could start our GA soon. That will make SoZ (and anything else we build) faster.

Yes, might be good to get our GA fast.

I notice Bed Head 7 is back and up. I haven't played do you want to take it?

I was thinking of asking, but decided against it. Sure, I'll play.

1475 BC (1) - Start Math, as that is my preference as well as Aggie's, and no other strong opinions were stated.

1425 BC (3) - Kill a warrior.

1400 BC (4) - Kill another warrior.

1375 BC (5) - Kill a warrior, lose our warrior and two archers to other archers on flatlands. Establish colony and switch to MW

IT - Oh boy. Lose two archers on a mountain to a warrior and an archer, lose colony.

1350 BC (6) - Not much.

1325 BC (7) - First MW built.

1300 BC (8) - Re-establish horse colony.

1275 BC (9) - Another MW. Trigger GA in killing an archer and a warrior.

1250 BC (10) - Aztecs found a town and we lose the colony again.

Math next turn, but we can't even afford the 11-12 turns for SoZ in our GA. It is not looking good, and I am not sure if I had anything to do with that. Maybe doing something differently would have helped. We didn't do well in terms of fighting, but I also got rather unlucky. Getting so unlucky this early is unfortunate.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/MM3_1250BC.jpg

Looks grim. Not that something has been done wrong except choosing Iro which might be not the best civ.

OK got it. I'll see what I can do with our MWs.

1225: Math in start writing in 9. MW completes build worker for colony. There are about 10 units incoming from English, Aztecs, Maya. Archer takes warrior/ MW takes archer (Aztecs).

1200: Take 2 Mayan warriors no losses

IBT: Mayan warrior promotes our MW.

1175: Take incoming chisqua and horseman from Incan. Take English archer. No losses. Horses back on line

IBT English archer redlines taking out an exposed MW.

1150: Loose MW to Mayan Spear on our horse road.

1125: Archer looses to English spear. Aztec settler heading for our horses again.

1100: MW loses to spear takes off 1HP. Elite MW redlines finishing off spear.

1075: healing.

1050: kill 2 aztec warriors.

1025: build a pult. Merge a worker. We now do 20spt.

1000: Kill a spear but it is just a matter of time. We will not pull this out.

I think this one is lost but Aggie is up if you would like to play to the bitter end although I am ready to throw in the towel and try again as the Greeks if people are up for it. It is not a question of catching up an age in tech which is usually doable it is a matter of troop numbers. The attrition is just too much to support. I have played around with some other starts and civs and I think it is doable but I think the Greeks may be the only civ for which that is possible. You really need to get out early and slow them down. The MW just comes in too late. Also a critical thing is to get to 20 spt ASAP and slow the AIs down by pillaging and defend the city with strategically positioned Hoplites. Also, I think that the 20spt unit is the best thing you can use and you need to get the city churning out 1 unit/turn. Also, I think it was a mistake for me to suggest getting out with contacts so early. Even though they take a while to get to you they do eventually come and the onslaught is just too much. What a change from the Monarch game.

I played on until 850 BC and I'm convinced that I will survive my ten turns. But it makes no sense to continue. Our improvements are pillaged and we are surrounded by all other tribes.

Early cojntact was -as probably to be expected- a big error.

Let's call this a loss. I will not be able to join a new game. RL has taken over (the good variant) and there's no time for playing CIV as much as I have done.

I'm in for another try. I think food bonus coastal is more important than ivory at Emperor, as a good food bonus or two will at least get us bigger faster. I

would still like to try as something other than the Greeks, as I feel like winning at Emperor won't be too much different if we still have hoplites. Or maybe we try at Monarch again with a more challenging civ.

Sorry for double post, but I was thinking of a couple possibilities.

Emperor: Carthage and Rome seem doable. We will be able to get semi-invincible units, it will just be more challenging getting them. Bonus in that their traits are actually of some use to us. Persia is probably doable here, but I actually think that the other two units would be better, with Rome's being best. Another bonus in that we played the last game as the Agressive Athenians, and the first two are empires that were named for single cities, which may be the key to success.

Monarch: It might be fun to give the Iroquois a try here eventually. Other possibilites are Egypt and the Celts I think. Zulu would probably be doable on a decent map. I can't think of any others that would have a decent chance at success, but maybe some civ is slipping my mind.

Let's just do it with Greece first and then possible to try something else. But I doubt a lot that this would be easy on a standard map even with 80% water. Still possibility of losing will be very high.

Also, IMO, very critical is taking out at least one of the closest AIs very early. As soon as their starting warriors/archers will go into exploration. An elite/vet hoplite covering for 3-4 archers can do the trick here. This would probably mean early Golden Age though.

OK I will start another as Greece. I've played with it a bit and I think one key is getting your city to 20spt ASAP. That and getting out pillaging with Hoplites. I think you have to take out civs early with archer and pult stacks. Once you need more thn 1 turn/unit or start loosing too many units because of luck or lack of pult support it can ugly pretty fast. BTW I have a killer start.

I shadowed this game to 850bc and chose to complete soz first. Math came in after 11 turns, i guess the ai researched it first. Completed soz at a cost of 75 shields + 1 turn. The only difference between my ending and yours is that the ai hasn't been able to pillage and I can't get MW's to start the ga.

It is looking like things might get busier for me in the near future, so I don't think I should add a new game to my schedule until I am more sure that I would have the time. I think I will have to pass on trying this variant again, at least for now.