The tradationalists advocate a push to the tradational methods of Demogame government, included within the following guidelines. These ideas are sumed into two constitutional formats, which will be posted in the next two postings.

Members:
Strider
Dominik
blackheart
CivGeneral
Nobody
Provolution
Stuck_As_a_Mac
Sarevok
Bacon King
CoolioVonHoolio
MSTK
mad-bax
BCLG100
Crazy_Eddy

We Stand For:

Appointed Poistions:
We will try to create more appointed, rather than elected, poistions inside of the game. Of course, the base functions will remain elected poistions. However, we will push to give mayors and other appointed poistions more power. This is to help generate interest in taking an active part in government. Many newer players hold little chance of gaining a government office, because there are many more older players who will receive more votes. By creating more appointed poistions, this allows newer players to create a name for themselves before entering the world of elected offices. This poistions include the Election Office, the Naming Commission, the Cartography Office, the Polling Standards Commission, Mayors, and many other poistions.

Decrease in the number of elected poistions
We've had many problems before with having to many offices, and not enough people to fill them. Although this does present an opportunity for newer players to enter the game, we believe that that's the only bonus to this. We advocate for a decrease in the number of elected offices.

Freedom of Information
We push for the avaibility of gamesave information to all citizens, that can be accessed on the forum. With the change to Conquests, many citizens can no longer access the save to get information about the game.

Detailed and clear amendments
In the past, the constitution has always been unclear. We stand for making the purpose for these amendments more clear, and pushing for these same amendments to go into better detail.

Easier Constitutional Access
Last demogame we had a constitution that used several differant layouts, and it was hard to find any one piece inside of it. We wish to give the constitution a singular layout, and also place a short 3-4 word summary of what each amendment is about. This will help you find exactly what your looking for.

Provinces/Govonors/National Budget
There have been several demogames, which have very non-corrupt provinces, and some extremely corrupt provinces. We will push for the amending of the constitution to help these govonors out. I am currently working on a system to achieve this goal, which will feature a more organized use of the national budget and many other changes. This will be proposed once I am finished.

------------------

These idea's are summarized within two constitutional proposals. The first one, Striders Modified Tradational, contains everything that we advocate. The second proposals, Provolutions Alternative, is a compromise between what we stand for and the newer ideas.

Both of these constitutions are featured within the following two posts.

Striders Modified Tradational contains the tradational departments of the demogame (9 elected poistions + govonors), and also features his modified DG5 constitutional articles.


We, the people of $COUNTRY_NAME, in order to create an atmosphere of friendship, cooperation, and pride, establish this Constitution of our beloved country. We uphold the beliefs that each citizen must have an equal voice in the government and ruling of our country, that government itself is a construct of and servant to the people, that rules, regulations, and laws should be established to facilitate the active participation of the people and to make possible the dreams and desires of the citizens.

Article A. Citizen Rights
All Civfanatics Forum users who register in the Citizen Registry are citizens of our country. Citizens have the right to assemble, the right to free movement, the right to free speech, the right to a fair and speedy trial, the right to representation, the right to seek to redress grievances, and the right to vote.

Section 1. Rights Reserved to the People
Rights reserved to the people As provided by Article A of this constitution, all actions not forbidden by forum rules, or by this Constitution, are presumed to be within the right of every citizen. Actions prescribed by this Constitution may be substituted by other similar actions, provided such substitution lies within the spirit of these rules.

Section 2. Slate Polling and Political Parties
Slate Polling, or the agreement among certain citizens to vote for a single candidate is illegal and against the Sprit of the game. As such, political parties are also illegal and against the Sprit of the game.

Article B. Laws and Rules
Governing laws and rules shall consist of these Articles of the Constitution, the Code of Laws, and any administrative rules that a governmental official shall propose and are accepted by the people. No law or rule shall be valid which is in contravention of this Constitution, excepting an amendment specifically tasked to do so. The Constitution may be amended by vote of the citizenry.

Section 1. Amending the Constitution
Amending the constitution shall require a 2/3's majority of Yes votes over No votes. The poll must run for 4 days, and require that half of the current census had voted. Any Amendment to the constitution must be given to the Judiciary for confirmation, who will then post the amendment poll.

Article C. Basic Government
The government will consist of the Executive Branch, Legislative Branch and Judicial Branch. These Branches are tasked with the play of the save, creation of laws, and upholding of laws, respectively.

Article D. The Executive Branch
The Executive branch is responsible for determining and implementing the will of the People, and is headed by the President. The President is charged with organizing and monitoring the affairs of the Ministers, and is also the primary designated player. The President shall take direction from a council of leaders and from other elected and appointed officials via the turnchat instruction thread, including worker actions. The President is also charged with appointing citizens to uncontested elections, the election office, and the Naming Commission.

Section 1. Domestic Affairs
The Minister of Domestic Affairs shall be responsible for all domestic initiatives, including revolts and slider management, and the management of the national budget.

Section 2. Foreign Affairs
he Minister of Foreign Affairs shall be responsible for matters involving treaties with foreign nations as well as all espionage and embassy missions.

Section 3. Defensive Affairs
The Minister of Defense shall be responsible for all military strategy, troop activities, and unit upgrades.

Section 4. Trade
The Minister of Trade shall be responsible for negotiating trades both domestic and foreign, and monitored rival civs trade status.

Section 5. Research and Technology
The Minister of Science shall be responsible for all tech acquisition, foreign and domestic, and the construction of space ship parts.

Section 6. Cultural Affairs
The Minister of Culture shall be responsible for the construction of wonders, the analysis and maintenance of cultural borders, as well as the movement and actions of settlers. This official shall also be responsible for monitoring Japanatica's cultural level against that of all rival nations. The Minister of Culture is also charged with the responsibility of the formation of new provinces.

Article E. Legislative Branch
The Legislative Branch shall be formed of the House of the People and Governors of .

[I]Section 1. The House of the People
The House of the People will be formed of the entirety of the citizenry and is responsible for the drafting of new Laws and Amendments to the Constitution. The House will present all proposed Articles, Amendments and Laws to the Judicial Branch for review.

Section 2. The Governors
Governors are responsible for the care, management, use of the cities, and use of lands of there province through the setting of build queues, allocation of laborers on tiles, and population rushes.

Section 3. Mayors
Mayors are appointed by a governor and tasked with the ability to monitor and advise governors for the care, management, and use of there city. They are limited to the power the governor gives them.

Article F. The Judicial Branch
The Judicial Branch will consist of the Chief Justice, the Public Defender, and the Judge Advocate. These three justices are tasked with upholding the Constitution and its supporting laws (if any) in a fair and impartial manner as prescribed by law. The Chief Justice shall have the additional responsibility of organizing and conducting the affairs of the Judicial Branch. The Public Defender will act as counsel for an accused individual. The Judge Advocate will act as the prosecution.

Section 1. Judicial Procedures
The elected Judiciary shall create their procedures once elected it, to be located in the first post of that term's Judiciary thread. Any change after the Judiciary's posting of these procedures will require the Will of the People.

Article G. Elections, the Election Office, and Deputies
The Elections determine the elected officials of . Elected Officials shall have a fixed term of one month, starting from the first of the month. All elected officials must act according to the Will of the People, as mentioned below in Article J.

[I]Section 1. Elections
All elected positions shall have a fixed term of one month. Each position will be granted to the candidate receiving the largest number of votes in that election. In the event of a tie between two or more candidates with the most votes, a runoff poll shall be opened between those candidates only. This poll shall run for 2 days, and be repeated as often as needed to resolve the tie. Nominations shall begin roughly 8 days before the end of the month, with debates following exactly 2 days after that, and elections 2 days after debates. Nominations will be closed once the elections begin, however debates will continue.

Section 2. The Election Office
The Election Office shall be comprised of those citizens willing to assist the election process. These citizens are appointed by the President, and are subject to a confirmation poll. The Election Office shall determine before each election who will post the threads for that election. The Election Office shall maintain on the initial post of their thread the dates for the current and next election cycle. The Election Office shall solicit and maintain a common list of debate questions for each office. This list shall be posted as soon as possible in each debate thread. Any non-trivial differences in the dates/times threads are posted from the scheduled time should be noted by the Election Office official posting the thread.

Section 3. Pre-Nominations
Any citizen may submit a Pre-Nomination to a member of the Election Office one week before the start of the election process (Nominations, Debates, and Elections).

Section 4. Deputies
All Executive and Legislative positions shall have a deputy. The Deputy will be permitted to conduct the affairs of the office as directed, or during a planned Absence of the elected official. If no instructions have been posted for an office within 24 hours of the upcoming Turn Chat, the deputy for that office may post the official instructions for the office. The Judiciary does not use deputies. In the event of an Absence, a pro-tem justice(s) may be appointed by the Chief Justice (or Judge Advocate if the Chief Justice if absent) and confirmed by the President and the remaining justice if not also absent. If both the Chief Justice and the Judge Advocate are absent, the Public Defender may appoint pro-tems to the other seats, with Presidential approval. A deputy is chosen by the elected official.

Section 5. Appointments
The President will appoint a citizen to any Vacant office. If a deputy exists for that office, the President must appoint that citizen. This appointment may be challenged by any citizen by that citizen posting a confirmation poll within 24 hours of the appointment.

Article H. Multiple Poistions
No person shall hold multiple positions of leadership (President, Vice-President, Department Leader, Judiciary, Provincial Governor, Deputy) simultaneously. The Election Office, the Naming Commission, and similiar offices do not count.

Article I. Census, and Amending the Constitution
The census shall be defined as the average number of votes cast, dropping fractions, in each of the contested elections in the most recent general election. Ratification of Amendments to the Constitution shall require each of the following.

Section 1. Time Limits
A poll which is open for at least 96 hours, which states the text of the proposed new section(s), the text of the section(s) being replaced, and posing the question in the form of yes / no / abstain.

Section 2. Citizen Approval
A 67% majority of Yes votes over No votes, Abstain notwithstanding.

Section 3. Census
A total number of votes greater than or equal to 2/3 the census current at the start of voting on the amendment, dropping any fraction therein.

Article J. The Will of the People
Elected officials must plan and act according to the will of the people. The will of the people will be determined through discussion and polls. If pertinent discussion is done outside the scope of the DG forums, then it must be documented in the Turnchat Instruction Thread 6 hours prior to the commencement of the turnchat by the appropriate leader.

Article K. Turnchats/Turnchat Instruction Thread
All irreversible game actions must progress during a public turnchat, while reversible game actions (i.e. build queues) that adhere to legal instructions can be prepared offline.

Section 1. Turnchat Instruction Thread
A turnchat instruction thread must be created at least 3 days before the chat. All official instructions must be posted in the current turnchat instruction thread. Instructions must be clear and defined. Officials must post their instructions at least one hour prior to the Turnchat. However, officials may make changes to their instructions up to half an hour before the chat, so long as those changes are noted. The Designated Player shall be charged with the creation of a date and time for all public turnchats.

Article L. CivFanatics Forum Rules
The constitution, laws and standards of can never be contrary to the rules and regulations of the Civfanatics forums. Moderators may veto any such constitutional amendments, laws or standards.

Article M. Commission of Game Actions
Commission of any game action by any person other than the Designated Player while carrying out their duties that is not instantly reversible without reloading the save is strictly forbidden. Exception: Determining options in the renegotiation of Peace agreements requires an action of acceptance or war to exit the bargain screen. This may be done but the game must be immediately closed without saving.

Article N. Provinces
A province shall be formed by a collection of cities, based on similiar geographic, ethnic, and economic backgrounds. The land as seen on the city-screen, and all land inbetween shall make up the province. The Formation of a Province will be handled VIA discussions and polling, and must be handled in a timely manner. The Culture Minister manages all cities that are not placed under the domain of a province. If the province was created mid-term, the Governor for the remainder of that term is appointed by the President. A province shall be named by it's first governor.

Article O. Freedom of Information
All elected/appointed officials are charged with the duty to post enough information for the citizens to make a informed decision. This includes information from the save, discussions, and past polls. Any citizen of the demogame may demand a minister to supply more information. A elected official may appoint a citizen to do this task for them.

[I]Section 1.Ministry Threads
Each Minister shall post a basic department update, every turnchat, inside of there respective Ministry thread. This update must include information about the progress of the minister and there respective duties.

Article P. The Naming Commission
The Naming Commission is charged with the task of creating a list of names for use by the Designated Player in the naming of cities and units. If a citizen fails to create a city name, then they will be skipped.

Section 1. Naming Order
The order of naming cities shall be decided by rank in the CoC. The naming of units shall be decided by the date joined inside of the registry.

Article Q. Vacancies
Any elected official may declare themselves to be Absent for a period of time. During this time, the deputy or pro-tem will act with all power and duties of that office, surrendering them to the official or Justice when they return or at the end of the planned absence, whichever comes first. Should an official fail to post instructions for 2 consecutive turn chats without prior notice, the Judiciary may declare that office Vacant. If a Justice has not posted on any active Judicial matter for three days, the remaining Justices may declare the Justice Absent. If a Justice has not posted on any active Judicial matter for seven days, the remaining Justices may declare the office Vacant. If all three Justices fail to post on any active Judicial matter for 7 days, the President may declare all Judicial offices Vacant, and immediately appoint a Chief Justice.

Article R. Polling Standards
Any poll posted by a Citizen of the Democracy game is considered official and binding, unless otherwise stated. All polls must simply and clearly state the question and all options, and contain an abstain option. A poll should state the objectives of the poll and the time limit (if any) of the poll. A poll must also contain all releveant information, including links to the respective ministry thread, discussion, and other polls.

Article S. National Budget
The National Budgest consists of our national treasury(lump sum of gold), but does not include our additional gold per turn. It should be compiled and posted by the Domestic advisor each turnchat. It will include a list of the funds required for rushes, upgrades, trades, and espionage. Any instruction that is not listed inside of the national budget, is to be considered void. If the domestic minister decides to give certain elected officials a base sum of gold to use, then this must also be included within the national budget, with the maxium amount that can be used by that leader.

Section 1. Governor Loans
The Domestic Minister shall create a set point of funds to be spent each turnchat. If the current national budget has not reached that point, a governor may demand a rush, which consits of them informing the Domestic Advisor to add the rush to the National budget without the Domestic Advisors approval. However, if the total sum of gold for the rush will exceed the point defined by the Domestic Advisor, then a governor may not demand the rush. The governor's with more corrupt provinces get priority when demanding a rush, this will be decided by the Domestic advisor.

Article T. Chain of Command
The chain of command is used for determining the Designated Player of the chat, if the President has not assigned one. This is to be used if the assigned DP does not show up.

President
Vice President
Domestic Minister
Defense Minister
Trade Minister
Science Minister
Foreign Affairs Minister
Culture Minister
Governors (in order of date joined)
Deputies (in order of Minister)

Provolutions Alternative contains the compromise alternative government structure proposed by Provolution( 13 elected poistions + govonors). It contains his ministries/consuls, with Striders modified DG5 articles.


We, the people of $COUNTRY_NAME, in order to create an atmosphere of friendship, cooperation, and pride, establish this Constitution of our beloved country. We uphold the beliefs that each citizen must have an equal voice in the government and ruling of our country, that government itself is a construct of and servant to the people, that rules, regulations, and laws should be established to facilitate the active participation of the people and to make possible the dreams and desires of the citizens.

Article A. Citizen Rights
All Civfanatics Forum users who register in the Citizen Registry are citizens of our country. Citizens have the right to assemble, the right to free movement, the right to free speech, the right to a fair and speedy trial, the right to representation, the right to seek to redress grievances, and the right to vote.

Section 1. Rights Reserved to the People
Rights reserved to the people As provided by Article A of this constitution, all actions not forbidden by forum rules, or by this Constitution, are presumed to be within the right of every citizen. Actions prescribed by this Constitution may be substituted by other similar actions, provided such substitution lies within the spirit of these rules.

Section 2. Slate Polling and Political Parties
Slate Polling, or the agreement among certain citizens to vote for a single candidate is illegal and against the Sprit of the game. As such, political parties are also illegal and against the Sprit of the game.

Article B. Laws and Rules
Governing laws and rules shall consist of these Articles of the Constitution, the Code of Laws, and any administrative rules that a governmental official shall propose and are accepted by the people. No law or rule shall be valid which is in contravention of this Constitution, excepting an amendment specifically tasked to do so. The Constitution may be amended by vote of the citizenry.

Section 1. Amending the Constitution



The government will consist of the Executive Branch, Legislative Branch and Judicial Branch. These Branches are tasked with the play of the save, creation of laws, and upholding of laws, respectively.

Article D. The Executive Branch
The Executive branch is responsible for determining and implementing the will of the People, and is headed by the President. The President is charged with organizing and monitoring the affairs of the Ministries and Directories, and is also the primary designated player. The President shall take direction from a council of ministers and from other elected and appointed officials via the turnchat instruction thread, including worker actions. The President is also charged with appointing citizens to uncontested elections, the election office, the Naming Commission, and the Vice President position. The President will lead the ministers and provide the overall focus for their strategy planning and take the necessary measures to integrate their planning.

Section 1. Interior Affairs
Minister of Interior Affairs (Roads, Mining and Agriculture) is legally in charge of planning all long term infrastructure developments, inclusive defensive land improvements, and is also in charge of all Major Wonder construction and enforcing cultural integrity of the nation. Minister of Interior Affairs is also responsible for opening up new territories for colonization as well as setting up new provinces.

Section 2. Development
Minister of Development (Slider management policy "Slider Czar", taxmen and scientists, long term research plan for one term), Minister of Finance and research is in charge of all fiscal policies related to sliders and the national budget. Minister of Development is also responsible for Capital location and Forbidden Capital location, watching corruption levels and finally would be in charge for planning the Space Race builds in case that eventuality occurs.

Section 3. Military
Minister of Military is in charge of all military land and air units, except settler escorts. In wartime, the Minister of Military would also take control over the Navy. The Minister of Military is responsible for long term strategic planning for the military, which includes force composition, upgrade unit plans, military groupings and organization, rules of engagement, war strategy objectives (target cities) and advocating all military Wonder constructions.

Section 4. Foreign Affairs
Minister of Foreign Affairs is responsible for all treaties and agreements signed with foreign nations, including trade in resources and science. The Minister for Foreign Affairs needs to consult the Minister of Finance and Science on all technology transfers and the governors on all resource trades for their approval.

Section 5. Colonial Offices
Director of Colonial Office is in charge of all operational scout, settler and military escort movements and the localization of cities as prescribed by the opened territory by the Minister of Interor Affairs. Director of Colonial Office is responsible for city planning per turnchat, and would consider the placement of future borders as well as operationally lead the navy in peacetime. Director of Colonial Office would also become the Director of Intelligence, deciding upon all espionage missions and embassies tasks. Colonial Office is also the nominal governor of non-provincial cities until these are included in a new province. The Director of Colonial Office is also in charge of the formation of provinces.

Section 6. Labor
Director of Labor is responsible for all worker movements and actions on an operational level as prescribed by the Minister of Interior Affairs. The Director of Labor is also charged with organizing the govonors for group efforts and is also in charge of deciding on tactical amendments of the Term Science Plan.

Section 7. Chief of Staff
Chief of Staff is in charge of all military operation level plans and tactical decisions as prescribed by the strategy objectives and military structure, formations and force composition planned by the Minister of the Military. In wartime, the Chief of staff would also take control over the Navy. Finally, the Chief of Staff is responsible for cooperating with the governors in meeting the needed defense requirements as prescribed by the Military Ministers long term plan.

Section 8. Central Bank
Director of Central Bank is in charge of operating the slider within the scope prescribed by the Minister of Development, as well as approving and disapproving all gold requests from other Directors and Governors.

Article E. Legislative Branch
The Legislative Branch shall be formed of the House of the People and Governors of .

[I]Section 1. The House of the People
The House of the People will be formed of the entirety of the citizenry and is responsible for the drafting of new Laws and Amendments to the Constitution. The House will present all proposed Articles, Amendments and Laws to the Judicial Branch for review.

Section 2. The Governors
Governors are responsible for the care, management, use of the cities, and use of lands of a province through the setting of build queues, allocation of laborers on tiles, and population rushes.

Section 3. Mayors
Mayors are appointed by a governor and tasked with the ability to monitor and advise governors for the care, management, and use of there city. They are limited to the power the governor gives them.

Article F. The Judicial Branch
The Judicial Branch will consist of the Chief Justice, the Public Defender, and the Judge Advocate. These three justices are tasked with upholding the Constitution and its supporting laws (if any) in a fair and impartial manner as prescribed by law. The Chief Justice shall have the additional responsibility of organizing and conducting the affairs of the Judicial Branch. The Public Defender will act as counsel for an accused individual. The Judge Advocate will act as the prosecution.

Section 1. Judicial Procedures
The elected Judiciary shall create their procedures once elected it, to be located in the first post of that term's Judiciary thread. Any change after the Judiciary's posting of these procedures will require the Will of the People.

Article G. Elections, the Election Office, and Deputies
The Elections determine the elected officials of . Elected Officials shall have a fixed term of one month, starting from the first of the month. All elected officials must act according to the Will of the People, as mentioned below in Article J.

[I]Section 1. Elections
All elected positions shall have a fixed term of one month. Each position will be granted to the candidate receiving the largest number of votes in that election. In the event of a tie between two or more candidates with the most votes, a runoff poll shall be opened between those candidates only. This poll shall run for 2 days, and be repeated as often as needed to resolve the tie. Nominations shall begin roughly 8 days before the end of the month, with debates following exactly 2 days after that, and elections 2 days after debates. Nominations will be closed once the elections begin, however debates will continue.

Section 2. The Election Office
The Election Office shall be comprised of those citizens willing to assist the election process. These citizens are appointed by the President, and are subject to a confirmation poll. The Election Office shall determine before each election who will post the threads for that election. The Election Office shall maintain on the initial post of their thread the dates for the current and next election cycle. The Election Office shall solicit and maintain a common list of debate questions for each office. This list shall be posted as soon as possible in each debate thread. Any non-trivial differences in the dates/times threads are posted from the scheduled time should be noted by the Election Office official posting the thread.

Section 3. Pre-Nominations
Any citizen may submit a Pre-Nomination to a member of the Election Office one week before the start of the election process (Nominations, Debates, and Elections).

Section 4. Deputies
All Executive and Legislative positions shall have a deputy. The Deputy will be permitted to conduct the affairs of the office as directed, or during a planned Absence of the elected official. If no instructions have been posted for an office within 24 hours of the upcoming Turn Chat, the deputy for that office may post the official instructions for the office. The Judiciary does not use deputies. In the event of an Absence, a pro-tem justice(s) may be appointed by the Chief Justice (or Judge Advocate if the Chief Justice if absent) and confirmed by the President and the remaining justice if not also absent. If both the Chief Justice and the Judge Advocate are absent, the Public Defender may appoint pro-tems to the other seats, with Presidential approval. A deputy is chosen by the elected official.

Section 5. Appointments
The President will appoint a citizen to any Vacant office. If a deputy exists for that office, the President must appoint that citizen. This appointment may be challenged by any citizen by that citizen posting a confirmation poll within 24 hours of the appointment.

Article H. Multiple Poistions
No person shall hold multiple positions of leadership (President, Vice-President, Department Leader, Judiciary, Provincial Governor, Deputy) simultaneously. The Election Office, the Naming Commission, and similiar offices do not count.

Article I. Census, and Amending the Constitution
The census shall be defined as the average number of votes cast, dropping fractions, in each of the contested elections in the most recent general election. Ratification of Amendments to the Constitution shall require each of the following.

Section 1. Time Limits
A poll which is open for at least 96 hours, which states the text of the proposed new section(s), the text of the section(s) being replaced, and posing the question in the form of yes / no / abstain.

Section 2. Citizen Approval
A 67% majority of Yes votes over No votes, Abstain notwithstanding.

Section 3. Census
A total number of votes greater than or equal to 2/3 the census current at the start of voting on the amendment, dropping any fraction therein.

Article J. The Will of the People
Elected officials must plan and act according to the will of the people. The will of the people will be determined through discussion and polls. If pertinent discussion is done outside the scope of the DG forums, then it must be documented in the Turnchat Instruction Thread 6 hours prior to the commencement of the turnchat by the appropriate leader.

Article K. Turnchats/Turnchat Instruction Thread
All irreversible game actions must progress during a public turnchat, while reversible game actions (i.e. build queues) that adhere to legal instructions can be prepared offline.

Section 1. Turnchat Instruction Thread
A turnchat instruction thread must be created at least 3 days before the chat. All official instructions must be posted in the current turnchat instruction thread. Instructions must be clear and defined. Officials must post their instructions at least one hour prior to the Turnchat. However, officials may make changes to their instructions up to half an hour before the chat, so long as those changes are noted. The Designated Player shall be charged with the creation of a date and time for all public turnchats.

Article L. CivFanatics Forum Rules
The constitution, laws and standards of can never be contrary to the rules and regulations of the Civfanatics forums. Moderators may veto any such constitutional amendments, laws or standards.

[B]Article M. Commission of Game Actions
Commission of any game action by any person other than the Designated Player while carrying out their duties that is not instantly reversible without reloading the save is strictly forbidden. Exception: Determining options in the renegotiation of Peace agreements requires an action of acceptance or war to exit the bargain screen. This may be done but the game must be immediately closed without saving.

Article N. Provinces
The area contained within the national boundaries of $COUNTRY_NAME shall be divided into areas called provinces, each of which is under the control of a Governor as stated in Article E. of the Constitution. These boundries must be defined and approved by the House well ahead of expansion, and may extend beyond the cultural boundaries. City locations shall be determined by the Will of the People. The Director of Colonial Offices is incharge of the formation of new provinces.

Article O. Freedom of Information
All elected/appointed officials are charged with the duty to post enough information for the citizens to make a informed decision. This includes information from the save, discussions, and past polls. Any citizen of the demogame may demand a minister to supply more information. A elected official may appoint a citizen to do this task for them.

[I]Section 1.Ministry Threads
Each Minister shall post a basic department update, every turnchat, inside of there respective Ministry thread. This update must include information about the progress of the minister and there respective duties.

Article P. The Naming Commission
The Naming Commission is charged with the task of creating a list of names for use by the Designated Player in the naming of cities and units. If a citizen fails to create a city name, then they will be skipped.

Section 1. Naming Order
The order of naming cities shall be decided by rank. The naming of units shall be decided by the date joined inside of the registry.

Article Q. Vacancies
Any elected official may declare themselves to be Absent for a period of time. During this time, the deputy or pro-tem will act with all power and duties of that office, surrendering them to the official or Justice when they return or at the end of the planned absence, whichever comes first. Should an official fail to post instructions for 2 consecutive turn chats without prior notice, the Judiciary may declare that office Vacant. If a Justice has not posted on any active Judicial matter for three days, the remaining Justices may declare the Justice Absent. If a Justice has not posted on any active Judicial matter for seven days, the remaining Justices may declare the office Vacant. If all three Justices fail to post on any active Judicial matter for 7 days, the President may declare all Judicial offices Vacant, and immediately appoint a Chief Justice.

Article R. Polling Standards
Any poll posted by a Citizen of the Democracy game is considered official and binding, unless otherwise stated. All polls must simply and clearly state the question and all options, and contain an abstain option. A poll should state the objectives of the poll and the time limit (if any) of the poll. A poll must also contain all releveant information, including links to the respective ministry thread, discussion, and other polls.

I'm in, always liked the traditional way myself.

I'll join even though I've skipped most of what Strider posted :lol:

Your both added to the memberlist.

I'll join even though I've skipped most of what Strider posted :lol:

I would recommend reading atleast the first post ;).

All though i may be relativly new to the demogame, I would like you join your group. Because i belive in a independant Foreign Affairs. Don't you think having the people who declare the wars, the same who plan and carry out the wars is a conflict of intrest. With no constitution to say "will of the people or anything." and having new laws issued by decree in a demogame.

Indeed, sign me up.

I really see the need to divide mililtary from foreign affairs. That is the procedure in virtually all governments. Yet, the strategic-tactical levels are needed, but in a different format.

With England winning the poll, it seems Finance should replace Culture as a consul position for Term 2, we should also change titles to Cabinet Secretary to be in line with the British title tradition.

Titles could be

Prime Minister (President)
King (Vice President)

Consuls to become

Secretary of Interior Affairs
Secretary of the Exchequer
Secretary of Defense
Secretary of Foreign Affairs

Directors to become

Field Marshall (Commander)
Admiralty Admiral of the Colonial Office
Central Bank Director
Public Works and Research Director


With England, Finance will be the focus, so we may need to revise the government structure set-up

I'd like in on this one.

SaaM

May non-members make respectful and constructive comments? :D

May non-members make respectful and constructive comments? :D

Certainly, I'm mainly going to use this thread as a centerpiece for all of my constitutional reforms, those that are well-know, and those that I haven't started yet. So any discussion is good.

oooo and i could set a militant wing.

i would like to have the old system (maybe a prime minister to deal with the elections and naming stuff e.c.t) and the old ministers could appoint different people under them, the way provo did in the military. also we could have another look at the senate from the old days. Also i think we should let the offices change there names to suit the current goverment nation. e.c.t like the courts could rename themselves the Privy council.

Okay, here's my theory (still rough and not in any constitutional format) of making the corrupt provinces more interesting to handle.

National Budget:
The National Budgest consists of our national treasury, but does not include our additional gold per turn. It should be compiled and posted by the Domestic advisor each turnchat. It will include a list of the funds required for rushes, upgrades, trades, and espionage. Any instruction that is not listed inside of the national budget, is to be considered void. If the domestic minister decides to give certain elected officials a base sum of gold to use, then this must also be included within the national budget, with the maxium amount that can be used by that leader.

Note: This is an aspect already include inside of the game, however, this puts it in differant light. Well... correction, this actually puts it in a light, where before it was in the dark. This will likely end up as a new article.

Formation of Provinces
A province shall be formed by a collection of cities, based on similiar geographic, ethnic, and economic backgrounds. The land as seen on the city-screen, and all land inbetween shall make up the province. The Formation of a Province will be handled VIA discussions and polling, and must be handled in a timely manner. The Culture Minister manages all cities that are not placed under the domain of a province. If the province was created mid-term, the Governor for the remainder of that term is appointed by the President.

I placed the formation of provinces under the eyes of Culture. It makes sense (after all, culture is charged with managing our national boundaries, why not our provincial ones also?).

Governor Loans
The Domestic Minister shall create a set point of funds to be spent each turnchat. If the current national budget has not reached that point, a governor may demand a rush, which consits of them informing the Domestic Advisor to add the rush to the National budget without the Domestic Advisors approval. However, if the total sum of gold for the rush will exceed the point defined by the Domestic Advisor, then a governor may not demand the rush. The governor's with more corrupt provinces get priority when demanding a rush, this will be decided by the Domestic advisor.

I'll try to explain this alittle bit here. Say for example that we currently have 7,614 gold inside of our national treasury. The Domestic Advisor says that he'll allow 5,000 of that to be spent this turnchat. He gives 2,300 to military for upgrades, 800 to trade, 50 to Foreign Affairs, and 700 to a governor for a rush. This leaves 1150g left inside of the Domestic Ministers pre-determines amount. A governor, upon seeing that, can then demand a rush that can not exceed a total of 1150g.

Any thoughts or comments?

I'm a little uneasy about the Governor Loans one. While I don't think that the Governor's will be stupid with our gold, they might make a mistake. The domestic advisor should have a veto power or something like that, what if it's a completely stupid rush need that everyone is against? One more thing, what if the Governor wants to rush, he gets it without a problem, but then the we find that we can get a good tech deal or something with that gold. The Governor has the power over the gold, I don't like it.

I'm a little uneasy about the Governor Loans one. While I don't think that the Governor's will be stupid with our gold, they might make a mistake. The domestic advisor should have a veto power or something like that, what if it's a completely stupid rush need that everyone is against? One more thing, what if the Governor wants to rush, he gets it without a problem, but then the we find that we can get a good tech deal or something with that gold. The Governor has the power over the gold, I don't like it.

Actually, the purpose of the Governor loan is for the governor's of the more corrupt provinces to get there province up off the ground. While most of these rushes will be pretty useless, we don't lose much. Also, inside of my example we would still have 2,000+ gold left inside of our national treasury to handle trades during the turnchat, so that shouldn't be any problem. The governor only has power over the gold that Domestic lets them have power over.

Im with you my old freind. Let the Old veterans band together to create this game.

I made some edits to my National Budget etc. idea. I'm going to wait and see if there is any other comments, and if no other problems appear, it will be added to both constitution proposals.

The edits for the most part was typos/spelling mistakes. The only major change was I gave Domestic the power to decide which governors receive priority in the governor loans.

Okay, as there seems to be no other comments, I've added the National Budget and Governor loan idea as an amendment to the traditional constitution, and I've edited the Province article.

This will also be edited inside of Provo's Alternative, pending his acceptance.

Other than that, is there any other Demogames issues that needs a quick fix? We might as well handle everything we can.

(Psst.. Its "Traditional", not "Tradational")

(Psst... It's "Governors" not "Govonors")

It could be guvna, just depends on which part of the world you're from ;)

Yeah, it could indeed be pidgin English or Creol English. Jamaican is official too.

...whatever

Right, now we can use this thread to discuss the 200 hundred differant ways to spell each word or we can use it for what it was intended to be used for.

Let's get back on topic.

I'd like to join this group.

Well, I really endorse Striders attempt at bridging the gap and proposing amendment both sides can live with. In my opinion a good constitution got 70 % backing.

Well, I really endorse Striders attempt at bridging the gap and proposing amendment both sides can live with. In my opinion a good constitution got 70 % backing.

I hope you know that you've already joined ;).

Our general goal is to keep things how they were. That system worked well as far as I am concerned. Of course... I wasnt here for much of DGV

Our general goal is to keep things how they were. That system worked well as far as I am concerned. Of course... I wasnt here for much of DGV

Well, our general goal isn't to keep things exactly how they were. We had problems, and were not going to be blind and try not to fix them.

With the introduction of the National Budget, I've been thinking of other possibilities. Now, the first two demogames leaders were allowed to insert improvements inside of governors build queues. Now, this had some advantages, but overall it just left the governor poistions weak and useless.

Well, with better management of the national budget, why not allow military or culture to insert rushes inside of a governors build queue? It will come out of there own pocket, and the governor gets an extra improvement inside of one of there cities. Seems perfectly logical and sound to me, and if any governor complains about getting an extra improvement in there city, I'd hope we'd vote them out next election.

I think Culture should be transferred to Domestic

Well, our general goal isn't to keep things exactly how they were. We had problems, and were not going to be blind and try not to fix them.
As I mentioned, I wasnt here for much of DG5.

I think Culture should be transferred to Domestic

Doing so only gives Domestic something more to worry about. I've given culture power over the formation provinces, and hopefully soon allow them to rush temples and libraries in cities. The poistion will be much more powerful.

We tried merging departments in DG4, and we then switched back to the tradational department set-up in DG5. It didn't work, and there's no reason to repeat past mistakes.

Well, I heard DG4 was a messed up group, and I see no need to maintain DG4 experiences as automatic laws for how to organize in the future. I say abolish Culture and let governors and domestic handle it. Transfer wonders to tech where it belongs.

I say abolish Culture

ummm... arn't you the cultural minister? *puts note in log of why provo is a nazi or now a taliban*

Well, I heard DG4 was a messed up group, and I see no need to maintain DG4 experiences as automatic laws for how to organize in the future. I say abolish Culture and let governors and domestic handle it. Transfer wonders to tech where it belongs.

Well, culture was the poistion that was merged. It obviously didn't work out to great, because it was put back in place for DG5. If we don't learn from our mistakes, then we might as well go without a constitution (of course, it seems were going to be going without one anyway). It was taken out for a reason, that reason is unknown to me, but it has had been that way for 3 Demogames with absolutely no problems. It's not broken, and I have no wish to waste my time fixing it.

Well, then I dissent, and will propose a separate amendment. I thought there was agreement that this was the problem. Now it seems agreement is gone.

Well, then I dissent, and will propose a separate amendment. I thought there was agreement that this was the problem. Now it seems agreement is gone.

I agreed that the poistion was not powerful enough, and I've changed that. I have always been against the merging of departments.

Goodluck with any seperate amendments, as my constitution isn't even in place.

Culture dosent exactly have power... but it is a good position to have.

Added the "Amending the Constitution" part, which has been under work for acouple days now.

Can I join this?

OK. how do i join?!?

OK. how do i join?!?

You just did.

OK. how do i join?!?

Yup, you just did. Be free to comment on any of my proposals, and if you see anything I'm missing from the constitutional proposals, by all means point it out to me.

I just have to say that as a long-time surfer of the internet I have witnessed a lot of changed over the many years that I have gone sifted through the world wide web. Sometimes when I wallow in my nostalgic grief I sometimes wish that for just a day I could return to the olden days where things were still green. Change is inevitable, and never could a forum or community survive long without it without a close-knit community. It is that community which I cherish as the greatest thing outside of the real world. I have a life outside of computers, but to have a community online where everybody knows each other and all were held in equal esteem is something that should never be lost. And yet in many places I helped achieved that symbolic perfection within communities, unified by the love of a video game, a movie, books, image editing, and many others.

But then, things change.

It is a very disturbing feeling, the world changing around you and yourself stuck where you are, unable to adjust, convincing the world vainly to stay the way it is. Things are fine as they were! Yet a new community moves in and overshadows the old. Bonds break apart and things just start over again. And in that moment I realize that everything I had worked for and everything that the community had worked for had been in vain, and that nothing last forever. All things must fade.

End rant.

sounds pretty sweet to me. By the way i think that citizens should have more say. I think that "main" positions should be elected then "secondary" positions should be appointed by either the officers or by people.

Just my opinoin, besides im new to demogame so if that sounds silly whatever...

sounds pretty sweet to me. By the way i think that citizens should have more say. I think that "main" positions should be elected then "secondary" positions should be appointed by either the officers or by people.

Just my opinoin, besides im new to demogame so if that sounds silly whatever...

If I'm thinking correctly, this is what my orginal intent was. Nothing has been done to change this either. It's still up there, somewhere.

I just have to say that as a long-time surfer of the internet I have witnessed a lot of changed over the many years that I have gone sifted through the world wide web. Sometimes when I wallow in my nostalgic grief I sometimes wish that for just a day I could return to the olden days where things were still green. Change is inevitable, and never could a forum or community survive long without it without a close-knit community. It is that community which I cherish as the greatest thing outside of the real world. I have a life outside of computers, but to have a community online where everybody knows each other and all were held in equal esteem is something that should never be lost. And yet in many places I helped achieved that symbolic perfection within communities, unified by the love of a video game, a movie, books, image editing, and many others.

But then, things change.

It is a very disturbing feeling, the world changing around you and yourself stuck where you are, unable to adjust, convincing the world vainly to stay the way it is. Things are fine as they were! Yet a new community moves in and overshadows the old. Bonds break apart and things just start over again. And in that moment I realize that everything I had worked for and everything that the community had worked for had been in vain, and that nothing last forever. All things must fade.

End rant.

This about the Thursday turnchat session?

This about the Thursday turnchat session?

No, it's not. Its about the world in general...

I was initially put off by the name of the thread and so I have put off reading it for now.

I am interested in developing the constitution and the Code of Laws to a state the is both workable and promotes "joined up" thinking for the game as a whole.

I think independently of course, and so my views may not be the same as the rest of the group, and I have not had the time to write my own version of the constitution, and probably never will.

I would like to join the group if that's OK so that I can try to influence the ammendments that are proposed. If I consider the finished product a significant improvement over what we currently have then I will vote for it.

I was initially put off by the name of the thread and so I have put off reading it for now.

I am interested in developing the constitution and the Code of Laws to a state the is both workable and promotes "joined up" thinking for the game as a whole.

I think independently of course, and so my views may not be the same as the rest of the group, and I have not had the time to write my own version of the constitution, and probably never will.

I would like to join the group if that's OK so that I can try to influence the ammendments that are proposed. If I consider the finished product a significant improvement over what we currently have then I will vote for it.

I would suggest reading the thread fully. Also, the more discussion the better, so welcome to the group :).

If you have anything to say, or to propose please do so. Also, if I do post an arguement, don't get scared away. Arguement helps to mold our and shape everything, so I tend to do it often.

Here are a few things that I would like considered. It's late now and so I won't be able to form a proper argument at this time, but I will later.

1. I don't like the vice-president being in the CoC. It is an appointed position. The only time the VP should have power is when the president is absent, in which case the VP is in effect the President.

2. I don't like the linear, top down approach of the CoC. The president should have a team (lets call it a cabinet for now), and the output from that team should be used to direct the actions of the provinces. In this way we can have a joined up strategy for the game, rather than a miriad of separate discussions about tactics that are not necessarily joined up or considering the big picture.

3. I would like to see a Treasury. This would be a department. The responsibilities of this department would be to allocate funds to the various other departments, to calculate gdp and predict future gdp, and to set targets for Shield, food and Gross income for the next turnset. The treasury would also be responsible for the "reserve" which would be used at the presidents discretion to pay demands, make rushes etc. The Treasury would report to the President.

4. The cabinet would consist of a Department for Defence, A department for trade and industry, a department for culture and so on, pretty much as you have it now. Each department would submit their plans for the next turnset and apply for a budget. The treasury will then compare each departments proposed spending against the strategic objective and allocate the budgets accordingly. The departments would then amend plans to ensure they stay within their budget.

5. The cabinet will then allocate budgets to each governor along with the modified plan. The Governors job will be to deliver the plan within budget.

Obviously some departments will not interact much with the governors. The Science minister for instance. So he would be responsible for setting the tech progression and the rate of tech progression. To do this he would have to calculate the number of beakers required to get each tech in the specified number of turns. If the treasury won't give him enough money, then he would have to amend the plan and/or direct the governors to increase beaker production. So he might ask province 1 to bring beaker output from 132/turn to 194/turn. The governor would then build improvements and hire specialists to deliver this plan.

I won't write more, since long diatribes are boring and turn people off. But there is more, and as I said I will expand on it more later.

None of the above is intended to reduce the rights of the citizen in voting etc. BTW. It might sound like I want a transfer of power to the top of the government, but that's not true. I just want (for the moment) a short CoC through elected offices only, and a fiscal policy that will focus people. Some of the calculation might appear difficult, but there are tools now which mean that it's trivial, and the calcs don't have to be perfect anyway. That would be part of the fun.

Edit: Strider - you won't scare me away. If you can pull my arguments apart then I would applaud it. Democracy is about putting your case as best you can and trying to sway people to your way of thinking. It's a really difficult thing to do. Most people will not change their mind whatever information you put in front of them. I will. :)

1. I don't like the vice-president being in the CoC. It is an appointed position. The only time the VP should have power is when the president is absent, in which case the VP is in effect the President.

Good point, but the orginal intent of the VP was to be the back-up DP. Of course, I'd prefer just letting the President chose the DP for each game session, wether it's himself or another citizen.

2. I don't like the linear, top down approach of the CoC. The president should have a team (lets call it a cabinet for now), and the output from that team should be used to direct the actions of the provinces. In this way we can have a joined up strategy for the game, rather than a miriad of separate discussions about tactics that are not necessarily joined up or considering the big picture.

It's part of the Presidents job to coordinate efforts between leaders. It is much easier and more efficient to place a leader of each "section" of the game. That way we don't have leaders filibusting decisions, and we can keep the game moving forward.

3. I would like to see a Treasury. This would be a department. The responsibilities of this department would be to allocate funds to the various other departments, to calculate gdp and predict future gdp, and to set targets for Shield, food and Gross income for the next turnset. The treasury would also be responsible for the "reserve" which would be used at the presidents discretion to pay demands, make rushes etc. The Treasury would report to the President.

There's not really much point in this, the Domestic Minister can handle all allocation of funds. Also, inside of the past Demogames the treasury has always been greatly abused (only trade actively ever uses it), so I doubt there will be any need.

4. The cabinet would consist of a Department for Defence, A department for trade and industry, a department for culture and so on, pretty much as you have it now. Each department would submit their plans for the next turnset and apply for a budget. The treasury will then compare each departments proposed spending against the strategic objective and allocate the budgets accordingly. The departments would then amend plans to ensure they stay within their budget.

This is basicly what Domestic already does, they can grant leaders the use of a certain amount of gold for a turnchat etc. Basicly all gold/trasury/national income falls under the domain of the Domestic, and is one of there main duties. In my above proposal (the modified tradational one), I took away Domestics power over settlers and the formation of provinces. So now the Domestic Department is charged, with mainly just slider and gold allocation.

5. The cabinet will then allocate budgets to each governor along with the modified plan. The Governors job will be to deliver the plan within budget.

It might work better off, to allow the Governors to request funds, when needed, and then let the cabinet accept or decline this task. Governors really only need gold to rush improvements/units, and I doubt they are going to be doing this often.

Obviously some departments will not interact much with the governors. The Science minister for instance. So he would be responsible for setting the tech progression and the rate of tech progression. To do this he would have to calculate the number of beakers required to get each tech in the specified number of turns. If the treasury won't give him enough money, then he would have to amend the plan and/or direct the governors to increase beaker production. So he might ask province 1 to bring beaker output from 132/turn to 194/turn. The governor would then build improvements and hire specialists to deliver this plan.

Science will need to interact with governors to push for Libraries, Universities, etc. Not much they can do other than that, the governors need to keep there cities happy and productive, and shouldn't have to worry to much with science. Afterall, inorder to effect science research much, you will need to coordinate large scale efforts, the easiest way of doing this is just to move the slider up. [/QUOTE]

Hold on -- remember that the Designated Player has no real power.

Thanks for the detailed response. I should really have held off posting until I had developed a proper argument. :)

I don't want to get hung up on the names of departments or even the detail of what each job is. What I really want is a form of government that has a structure that allows good gameplay. One of my concerns is that the game seems to have no overall strategy and no discussion of it. So to re-phrase what I said earlier...

A. There should be an overall strategy for the game. It should take into account the will of the people and it should be accessible in a thread.

For Example.

Objective: Win by 130K victory condition in fewest possible number of turns.

Method: Expand peacefully through the landgrab phase. Expand militarily to the domination limit thereafter. Maximise the advantages of our civilization traits.

Milestones.
i) 15 Cities by turn 80
ii) Change of government to Republic - turn 100
iii) Complete control of starting landmass - turn 150
.
.
.
xx) Cultural victory turn 340


B. The tier of government below this will then decide upon the tactics required to achieve it. They will have to work together for this and so should be at the same level. So then each department would follow a plan.

For example

{office in charge of expansion}

Settle at a density of 13 tiles per city inland, and 8 tiles per city on the coast. Please see dotmap attached.

At domination limit increase density in provinces A, f, h and g to 6 tiles per city.

Disband cities to allow for new resources or strategic positions to be taken without breaking the domination limit.

Once the domination limit is reached maintain a national border covering tiles required to stay less than 10 tiles from domination limit.

So then we have a tactical plan for each department.

The Governors will then manage their provinces to deliver the tactical plans.

Everyone needs to know what they are expected to deliver, and with what resources. In other words they need a target and a budget.

This type of set up would promote better game play IMHO, would be more challenging for officials and end up being more fun.

As regards the CoC: If the CoC is only the order in which the DP is decided then I couldn't care less. But if it is a reporting line then I have big problems. The CoC hould be hierarchical if this is the case.

Thanks for the detailed response. I should really have held off posting until I had developed a proper argument. :)

I don't want to get hung up on the names of departments or even the detail of what each job is. What I really want is a form of government that has a structure that allows good gameplay. One of my concerns is that the game seems to have no overall strategy and no discussion of it. So to re-phrase what I said earlier...

A. There should be an overall strategy for the game. It should take into account the will of the people and it should be accessible in a thread.

For Example.

Objective: Win by 130K victory condition in fewest possible number of turns.

Method: Expand peacefully through the landgrab phase. Expand militarily to the domination limit thereafter. Maximise the advantages of our civilization traits.

Milestones.
i) 15 Cities by turn 80
ii) Change of government to Republic - turn 100
iii) Complete control of starting landmass - turn 150
.
.
.
xx) Cultural victory turn 340


B. The tier of government below this will then decide upon the tactics required to achieve it. They will have to work together for this and so should be at the same level. So then each department would follow a plan.

For example

{office in charge of expansion}

Settle at a density of 13 tiles per city inland, and 8 tiles per city on the coast. Please see dotmap attached.

At domination limit increase density in provinces A, f, h and g to 6 tiles per city.

Disband cities to allow for new resources or strategic positions to be taken without breaking the domination limit.

Once the domination limit is reached maintain a national border covering tiles required to stay less than 10 tiles from domination limit.

So then we have a tactical plan for each department.

The Governors will then manage their provinces to deliver the tactical plans.

Everyone needs to know what they are expected to deliver, and with what resources. In other words they need a target and a budget.

This type of set up would promote better game play IMHO, would be more challenging for officials and end up being more fun.

As regards the CoC: If the CoC is only the order in which the DP is decided then I couldn't care less. But if it is a reporting line then I have big problems. The CoC hould be hierarchical if this is the case.

This is currently the system in place, which has so far completely failed. It has not promoted better gameplay, as the leaders just do they jobs anyway with no interaction. It's lacking solid supporting laws, because we wasted 2 months building something new, which presents a huge constitutional crisis. Add in the introduction of hundreds of flaws, gambits, and problems in the system itself, and the idea you presented above has completely and utterly failed.

By placing two differant leaders in control of the same aspect of the game, you do nothing but allow them to fight amongst themselves. You don't promote gameplay, you take it away. Not only that, but inorder to create a tatical and strategic cabinet, you would need to double the amount of leaders. This makes the elections boring, and also greatly increases the amount of leaders that are appointed.

You also have a problem with changing citizen moods and changing game events. Why create all of these plans, when one event inside of the game will destroy them all? Another civilization declaring war can change everything inside of the game, and there is no possible way to predict when or if it will happen. You could prepare for it, but that will waste our time and reduce our leaders efficiency, so wasting time on something that may not ever happen is pointless. Now take the above and throw in the will of the people changing, it happens often, one week we'd decide on one thing, the next we decide on the complete opposite. Does it make sense to create strategic plans in an environment such as this?

Now, I agree that long term planning is needed is some circumstances. Examples of this being Wonder building, most of science, and sometimes trade. However, other than the things that have to have sometype of long-term planning, what is the point? To do what? Waste our time on creating plans that will never come to pass? Divert attention from more important aspects of the game?

Okay, everyone, I in less than a week I'm going to make an attempt to push for the constitutional proposal (the Modified Tradational one) to be passed and take the place of the current one.

This will likely take place after I make some more modifications/fixes in the system. If any of you guys have any suggested changes or concerns throw them at me now.

Also, I'm going to ask for all of your support in this endeavor.

I wonder what happened to the compromise, or would you run with the traditional 6 minister set up ? I think reshuffling the cabinet positions to be more balanced, and making
Directors balanced as well would make sense. Long term planning fails due to the lack of integrated functionality of offices and more detailed task descriptions.

By placing two differant leaders in control of the same aspect of the game, you do nothing but allow them to fight amongst themselves. You don't promote gameplay, you take it away. Not only that, but inorder to create a tatical and strategic cabinet, you would need to double the amount of leaders. This makes the elections boring, and also greatly increases the amount of leaders that are appointed.


I'd be interested in any documented instances of friction between leaders in this term. So far I've noticed quite a lot of cooperation. Sure, some things have needed to be prompted, but that is expected when we're trying something new.

Also the only appointed positions we have currently are the ones which are designed to be appointed. We even have several elected and appointed leaders who don't have Conquests, which is only possible because the nature of the offices was designed in part specifically to allow non Conquests owners to hold them.

Even the number of JRs is well below what would be expected at the current maturity level of the ruleset. This indicates to me that the vast majority of the people want to just play the game.

Nevertheless, if the number of people who want to make a change exceeds the requirements for an amendment (as shown by a vote), then I'll be happy to perform my duties in whatever government style the people choose. :D

This is currently the system in place, which has so far completely failed. It has not promoted better gameplay, as the leaders just do they jobs anyway with no interaction. It's lacking solid supporting laws, because we wasted 2 months building something new, which presents a huge constitutional crisis. Add in the introduction of hundreds of flaws, gambits, and problems in the system itself, and the idea you presented above has completely and utterly failed.
I'm sorry, but I do not see the system as having completely failed. If it had, there would be JRs being submitted continually, which hasn't happened. There would be complaints coming from all sides, which again hasn't happened. The constitutional discussions only involve the same five or six people, several of whom (including me) are saying "it isn't broken."

Strider, you were against this new constitution from the beginning and argued, unsuccessfully, for the traditional form of government. I believe you're saying that the system is a failure because you want it to be a failure. Sure, it needs tweaking, but it hasn't failed or even come close to failing. The game is being played quite successfully. That argues that the system hasn't failed.

I'd be interested in any documented instances of friction between leaders in this term. So far I've noticed quite a lot of cooperation. Sure, some things have needed to be prompted, but that is expected when we're trying something new.

Also the only appointed positions we have currently are the ones which are designed to be appointed. We even have several elected and appointed leaders who don't have Conquests, which is only possible because the nature of the offices was designed in part specifically to allow non Conquests owners to hold them.

Even the number of JRs is well below what would be expected at the current maturity level of the ruleset. This indicates to me that the vast majority of the people want to just play the game.

Nevertheless, if the number of people who want to make a change exceeds the requirements for an amendment (as shown by a vote), then I'll be happy to perform my duties in whatever government style the people choose. :D

Oh great... we have 6 out of 14 elections that were actually challanged. That means 8 out of our current 14 "elected" ministers were not actually elected. Congratulations on destroying the election process.

You can become almost anything except the DP without Conquests, all your doing is giving them a how to do it for dummies book. In this section you've achieved nothing, you just made everyone think you did.

I'm sorry, but I do not see the system as having completely failed. If it had, there would be JRs being submitted continually, which hasn't happened. There would be complaints coming from all sides, which again hasn't happened. The constitutional discussions only involve the same five or six people, several of whom (including me) are saying "it isn't broken."

If you wanted to see several JR's submitted continually then just ask me, I could come up with several dozen extremely fast. Hell, were missing half the constitution. There's not even articles to submit a JR for!

Strider, you were against this new constitution from the beginning and argued, unsuccessfully, for the traditional form of government. I believe you're saying that the system is a failure because you want it to be a failure. Sure, it needs tweaking, but it hasn't failed or even come close to failing. The game is being played quite successfully. That argues that the system hasn't failed.

We've had more uncontested elections, we now have several leaders that hasn't done a single thing so far, or what they have done takes a total of 15 seconds to complete. We are missing several key articles inside of the constitution, several of which are badly needed. Trust me, if I really an truely wanted this to fail, I wouldn't be sitting back waiting for it to. I could very easily make it fail, so I suggest that next time you take a view of the broader picture before making accusations.

that would be so thoughtful to constantly file JRs... you know we would still be ruling on them during term 6, causing the entire court to backup, thus stalemating furhter constitutional amendents... Genius idea... Most of the constitution is there....

Strider the Demogame is getting old, plus some events(forced start, etc) have caused people not to come to the DG anymore. It is in no way the government type, your type would have just the same amount of uncontested

I could very easily make it fail, so I suggest that next time you take a view of the broader picture before making accusations.Okay, Strider, you win. I'll shut up so you don't shut down the game for the rest of us.

I understand that this debate is polarized, but why not look to a reform proposal that build on our existing system. Going all traditional or all alternative is not necessarrily the best, but rather focus on making balanced offices with clear responsbilities and balanced workloads. As a Culture Consul I have virtually nothing to do, as is very evident now.

Please consult Cabinet Reform Proposal Term 2 thread.

To be fair, maybe the reason that there are leaders without a lot to do, or whose tasks have thus far been simple, is that it's still 2900 BC. We have a grand total of 1 city, 1 province, and I believe that our army consists of 2 warriors and a curragh. This is my first demogame, so maybe I just lack a frame of reference, but things seem to be going ok to me.

Magnificent Cow, you are probably not aware that the last DG, culture was a more or less redundant office, but both FA and the Military got a lot to do. This is what I am saying.

Okay, I'm working on a final version of the constitution. I'm guessing that I'll be finished sometime after easter sunday, so expect it sometime about then.

After seeing the thread about revising the Naming and Titles has gotten me a bit conserned and pushed me forward more into the conservative mainstream of the traditionalist.

Incase you dont know what I am talking about here is the thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=114639).
There is a plan to have cities be named by polls.

Sorry for not meeting my deadline, I've been busy as of late. However, just to let everyone know. I am still working on the constitution, and it will be posted hopefully this weekend. So hurry up and get your comments and suggestions in!

Okay, here's the newest version I promised this weekend.


We, the people of $COUNTRY_NAME, in order to create an atmosphere of friendship, cooperation, and pride, establish this Constitution of our beloved country. We uphold the beliefs that each citizen must have an equal voice in the government and ruling of our country, that government itself is a construct of and servant to the people, that rules, regulations, and laws should be established to facilitate the active participation of the people and to make possible the dreams and desires of the citizens.

Article A. Citizen Rights
All Civfanatics Forum users who register in the Citizen Registry are citizens of our country. Citizens have the right to assemble, the right to free movement, the right to free speech, the right to a fair and speedy trial, the right to representation, the right to seek to redress grievances, and the right to vote.

Section 1. Rights Reserved to the People
Rights reserved to the people As provided by Article A of this constitution, all actions not forbidden by forum rules, or by this Constitution, are presumed to be within the right of every citizen. Actions prescribed by this Constitution may be substituted by other similar actions, provided such substitution lies within the spirit of these rules.

Section 2. Slate Polling and Political Parties
Slate Polling, or the agreement among certain citizens to vote for a single candidate is illegal and against the Sprit of the game. As such, political parties are also illegal and against the Sprit of the game.

Article B. Laws and Rules
Governing laws and rules shall consist of these Articles of the Constitution, the Code of Laws, and any administrative rules that a governmental official shall propose and are accepted by the people. No law or rule shall be valid which is in contravention of this Constitution, excepting an amendment specifically tasked to do so. The Constitution may be amended by vote of the citizenry.

Section 1. Amending the Constitution
Amending the constitution shall require a 2/3's majority of Yes votes over No votes. The poll must run for 4 days, and require that half of the current census had voted. Any Amendment to the constitution must be given to the Judiciary for confirmation, who will then post the amendment poll.

Article C. Basic Government
The government will consist of the Executive Branch, Legislative Branch and Judicial Branch. These Branches are tasked with the play of the save, creation of laws, and upholding of laws, respectively.

Article D. The Executive Branch
The Executive branch is responsible for determining and implementing the will of the People, and is headed by the President. The President is charged with organizing and monitoring the affairs of the Ministers, and is also the primary designated player. The President shall take direction from a council of leaders and from other elected and appointed officials via the turnchat instruction thread, including worker actions. The President is also charged with appointing citizens to uncontested elections, the election office, the Naming Commission, and the Newbies Society.

Section 1. Domestic Affairs
The Minister of Domestic Affairs shall be responsible for all domestic initiatives, including revolts and slider management, and the management of the national budget.

Section 2. Foreign Affairs
he Minister of Foreign Affairs shall be responsible for matters involving treaties with foreign nations as well as all espionage and embassy missions.

Section 3. Defensive Affairs
The Minister of Defense shall be responsible for all military strategy, troop activities, and unit upgrades.

Section 4. Trade
The Minister of Trade shall be responsible for negotiating trades both domestic and foreign, and monitored rival civs trade status.

Section 5. Research and Technology
The Minister of Science shall be responsible for all tech acquisition, foreign and domestic, and the construction of space ship parts.

Section 6. Cultural Affairs
The Minister of Culture shall be responsible for the construction of wonders, the analysis and maintenance of cultural borders, as well as the movement and actions of settlers. This official shall also be responsible for monitoring Japanatica's cultural level against that of all rival nations. The Minister of Culture is also charged with the responsibility of the formation of new provinces.

Article E. Legislative Branch
The Legislative Branch shall be formed of the House of the People and Governors of .

[I]Section 1. The House of the People
The House of the People will be formed of the entirety of the citizenry and is responsible for the drafting of new Laws and Amendments to the Constitution. The House will present all proposed Articles, Amendments and Laws to the Judicial Branch for review.

Section 2. The Governors
Governors are responsible for the care, management, use of the cities, and use of lands of there province through the setting of build queues, allocation of laborers on tiles, and population rushes.

Section 3. Mayors
Mayors are appointed by a governor and tasked with the ability to monitor and advise governors for the care, management, and use of there city. They are limited to the power the governor gives them.

Article F. The Judicial Branch
The Judicial Branch will consist of the Chief Justice, the Public Defender, and the Judge Advocate. These three justices are tasked with upholding the Constitution and its supporting laws (if any) in a fair and impartial manner as prescribed by law. The Chief Justice shall have the additional responsibility of organizing and conducting the affairs of the Judicial Branch. The Public Defender will act as counsel for an accused individual. The Judge Advocate will act as the prosecution. The Judicial Branch shall have the additional responsibility of monitoring and upkeeping the census. The census shall be defined as the average number of votes cast, dropping fractions, in each of the contested elections in the most recent general election, and is used for amending the constitution.

Section 1. Judicial Procedures
The elected Judiciary shall create their procedures once elected it, to be located in the first post of that term's Judiciary thread. Any change after the Judiciary's posting of these procedures will require the Will of the People.

Article G. Elections, the Election Office, and Deputies
The Elections determine the elected officials of . Elected Officials shall have a fixed term of one month, starting from the first of the month. All elected officials must act according to the Will of the People, as mentioned below in Article J.

[I]Section 1. Elections
All elected positions shall have a fixed term of one month. Each position will be granted to the candidate receiving the largest number of votes in that election. In the event of a tie between two or more candidates with the most votes, a runoff poll shall be opened between those candidates only. This poll shall run for 2 days, and be repeated as often as needed to resolve the tie. Nominations shall begin roughly 8 days before the end of the month, with debates following exactly 2 days after that, and elections 2 days after debates. Nominations will be closed once the elections begin, however debates will continue.

Section 2. The Election Office
The Election Office shall be comprised of those citizens willing to assist the election process. These citizens are appointed by the President, and are subject to a confirmation poll. The Election Office shall determine before each election who will post the threads for that election. The Election Office shall maintain on the initial post of their thread the dates for the current and next election cycle. The Election Office shall solicit and maintain a common list of debate questions for each office. This list shall be posted as soon as possible in each debate thread. Any non-trivial differences in the dates/times threads are posted from the scheduled time should be noted by the Election Office official posting the thread.

Section 3. Pre-Nominations
Any citizen may submit a Pre-Nomination to a member of the Election Office one week before the start of the election process (Nominations, Debates, and Elections).

Section 4. Deputies
All Executive and Legislative positions shall have a deputy. The Deputy will be permitted to conduct the affairs of the office as directed, or during a planned Absence of the elected official. If no instructions have been posted for an office within 24 hours of the upcoming Turn Chat, the deputy for that office may post the official instructions for the office. The Judiciary does not use deputies. In the event of an Absence, a pro-tem justice(s) may be appointed by the Chief Justice (or Judge Advocate if the Chief Justice if absent) and confirmed by the President and the remaining justice if not also absent. If both the Chief Justice and the Judge Advocate are absent, the Public Defender may appoint pro-tems to the other seats, with Presidential approval. A deputy is chosen by the elected official.

Section 5. Appointments
The President will appoint a citizen to any Vacant office. If a deputy exists for that office, the President must appoint that citizen. This appointment may be challenged by any citizen by that citizen posting a confirmation poll within 24 hours of the appointment.

Article H. Multiple Poistions
No person shall hold multiple positions of leadership (President, Vice-President, Department Leader, Judiciary, Provincial Governor, Deputy) simultaneously. The Election Office, the Naming Commission, and similiar offices do not count. However, a citizen may have up to 2 accepted nominations by the start of elections.

Article I. The Will of the People
Elected officials must plan and act according to the will of the people. The will of the people will be determined through discussion and polls. If pertinent discussion is done outside the scope of the DG forums, then it must be documented in the Turnchat Instruction Thread 6 hours prior to the commencement of the turnchat by the appropriate leader.

Article J. Turnchats/Turnchat Instruction Thread
All irreversible game actions must progress during a public turnchat, while reversible game actions (i.e. build queues) that adhere to legal instructions can be prepared offline.

Section 1. Turnchat Instruction Thread
A turnchat instruction thread must be created at least 3 days before the chat. All official instructions must be posted in the current turnchat instruction thread. Instructions must be clear and defined. Officials must post their instructions at least one hour prior to the Turnchat. However, officials may make changes to their instructions up to half an hour before the chat, so long as those changes are noted. The Designated Player shall be charged with the creation of a date and time for all public turnchats.

Article K. CivFanatics Forum Rules
The constitution, laws and standards of can never be contrary to the rules and regulations of the Civfanatics forums. Moderators may veto any such constitutional amendments, laws or standards.

Article L. Commission of Game Actions
Commission of any game action by any person other than the Designated Player while carrying out their duties that is not instantly reversible without reloading the save is strictly forbidden. Exception: Determining options in the renegotiation of Peace agreements requires an action of acceptance or war to exit the bargain screen. This may be done but the game must be immediately closed without saving.

Article M. Provinces
A province shall be formed by a collection of cities, based on similiar geographic, ethnic, and economic backgrounds. The land as seen on the city-screen, and all land inbetween shall make up the province. The Formation of a Province will be handled VIA discussions and polling, and must be handled in a timely manner. The Culture Minister manages all cities that are not placed under the domain of a province. If the province was created mid-term, the Governor for the remainder of that term is appointed by the President. A province shall be named by it's first elected governor.

Article N. Freedom of Information
All elected/appointed officials are charged with the duty to post enough information for the citizens to make a informed decision. This includes information from the save, discussions, and past polls. Any citizen of the demogame may demand a minister to supply more information. A elected official may appoint a citizen to do this task for them.

[I]Section 1.Ministry Threads
Each Minister shall post a basic department update, every turnchat, inside of there respective Ministry thread. This update must include information about the progress of the minister and there respective duties.

Article O. The Naming Commission
The Naming Commission is charged with the task of creating a list of names for use by the Designated Player in the naming of cities and units. If a citizen fails to create a city name, then they will be skipped.

Section 1. Naming Order
The order of naming cities shall be decided by rank in the CoC. The naming of units shall be decided by the date joined inside of the registry.

Article P. The Newbies Society
The Newbies Society shall be made up of voulantary members appointed by the President. They are tasked with the organization and creation of help guides for newer players within the demogame. They are also tasked with the responsibility to upkeep a FAQ inside of the official thread, and to answer newer players questions about the game.

Article Q. Vacancies
Any elected official may declare themselves to be Absent for a period of time. During this time, the deputy or pro-tem will act with all power and duties of that office, surrendering them to the official or Justice when they return or at the end of the planned absence, whichever comes first. Should an official fail to post instructions for 2 consecutive turn chats without prior notice, the Judiciary may declare that office Vacant. If a Justice has not posted on any active Judicial matter for three days, the remaining Justices may declare the Justice Absent. If a Justice has not posted on any active Judicial matter for seven days, the remaining Justices may declare the office Vacant. If all three Justices fail to post on any active Judicial matter for 7 days, the President may declare all Judicial offices Vacant, and immediately appoint a Chief Justice.

Article R. Polling Standards
Any poll posted by a Citizen of the Democracy game is considered official and binding, unless otherwise stated. All polls must simply and clearly state the question and all options, and contain an abstain option. A poll should state the objectives of the poll and the time limit (if any) of the poll. A poll must also contain all releveant information, including links to the respective ministry thread, discussion, and other polls.

Article S. National Budget
The National Budgest consists of our national treasury(lump sum of gold), but does not include our additional gold per turn. It should be compiled and posted by the Domestic advisor each turnchat. It will include a list of the funds required for rushes, upgrades, trades, and espionage. Any instruction that is not listed inside of the national budget, is to be considered void. If the domestic minister decides to give certain elected officials a base sum of gold to use, then this must also be included within the national budget, with the maxium amount that can be used by that leader.

Section 1. Governor Loans
The Domestic Minister shall create a set point of funds to be spent each turnchat. If the current national budget has not reached that point, a governor may demand a rush, which consits of them informing the Domestic Advisor to add the rush to the National budget without the Domestic Advisors approval. However, if the total sum of gold for the rush will exceed the point defined by the Domestic Advisor, then a governor may not demand the rush. The governor's with more corrupt provinces get priority when demanding a rush, this priority will be decided by the Domestic advisor.

Article T. Chain of Command
The chain of command is used for determining the Designated Player of the chat, if the President has not assigned one. This is to be used if the assigned DP does not show up.

President
Vice President
Domestic Minister
Defense Minister
Trade Minister
Science Minister
Foreign Affairs Minister
Culture Minister
Governors (in order of date joined)
Deputies (in order of Minister)

I deleted a few repetive articles (and lines) and also did some minor glitches to the formation of provinces and Governor Budget articles.

I added the Newbies Society Article (Article P. for those interested), and also finally finished Cultures powers.

It's still missing quite a few things, I just can't think of anything else right now. So let's just call this the alpha version for now. Also, as always, any comments or suggestions will be most helpful.

It would be really helpful if you wouldn't use the quote method of indenting, as it makes comments on the text a little more difficult.


Article B. Laws and Rules

Section 1. Amending the Constitution
Amending the constitution shall require a 2/3's majority of Yes votes over No votes. The poll must run for 4 days, and require that half of the current census had voted. Any Amendment to the constitution must be given to the Judiciary for confirmation, who will then post the amendment poll.


I might prefer to keep the current methodology for amending the constitution. Must run some numbers.... I will not agree to anything which makes it harder to pass an amendment.


The President is also charged with appointing citizens to uncontested elections, the election office, the Naming Commission, and the Newbies Society.


I think you mean vacant offices. The Newbies Society is a citizen's group and should not be subject to Presidential intervention. The Information Office and Polling Standards Commission could be added here.


Section 1. Domestic Affairs
The Minister of Domestic Affairs shall be responsible for all domestic initiatives, including revolts and slider management, and the management of the national budget.

Replace revolts with either revolutions or government changes. Management of the national budget has always been a problem. In this system, trade, science, and the governor are all dependent upon the Domestic Minister's decision. This is the exact same problem as the current government, just with the directions of the arrows reversed.

Moving some tasks from Domestic to Culture is a partial solution to the balancing problem, and it is not one we've tried before. :)


Article I. The Will of the People
Elected officials must plan and act according to the will of the people. The will of the people will be determined through discussion and polls. If pertinent discussion is done outside the scope of the DG forums, then it must be documented in the Turnchat Instruction Thread 6 hours prior to the commencement of the turnchat by the appropriate leader.


This outside the scope of the DG forums thing keeps coming back, and every time someone asks the question what could possibly be decided outside the forums? Guess it's my turn to ask... ;)


Article P. The Newbies Society
The Newbies Society shall be made up of voulantary members appointed by the President. They are tasked with the organization and creation of help guides for newer players within the demogame. They are also tasked with the responsibility to upkeep a FAQ inside of the official thread, and to answer newer players questions about the game.

Not sure if this is something we want to make a formally specified office. Doesn't the citizens group handle this?


Article R. Polling Standards
Any poll posted by a Citizen of the Democracy game is considered official and binding, unless otherwise stated. All polls must simply and clearly state the question and all options, and contain an abstain option. A poll should state the objectives of the poll and the time limit (if any) of the poll. A poll must also contain all releveant information, including links to the respective ministry thread, discussion, and other polls.

This invites every Tom, Dick, and Sally in the demogame to poll something to death, which is the reason we normally say the poll created by the official responsible for an area is binding and others are not, unless there is no poll by the official.

Over in the "avoiding disaster" thread, you make a claim that this proposed constitution promotes long term planning. I would like to see discussion of that please. :)

I might prefer to keep the current methodology for amending the constitution. Must run some numbers.... I will not agree to anything which makes it harder to pass an amendment.

2/3 is equal to .6666666 (it keeps repeating). So it's the same as 67%, just much more exact.

think you mean vacant offices. The Newbies Society is a citizen's group and should not be subject to Presidential intervention. The Information Office and Polling Standards Commission could be added here.

At the time, that was the only name I could come up with. Read Article P.

Replace revolts with either revolutions or government changes. Management of the national budget has always been a problem. In this system, trade, science, and the governor are all dependent upon the Domestic Minister's decision. This is the exact same problem as the current government, just with the directions of the arrows reversed.

Added to the list of things to do.

This outside the scope of the DG forums thing keeps coming back, and every time someone asks the question what could possibly be decided outside the forums? Guess it's my turn to ask... ;)

Doesn't say anything about a decision being made outside of the forums. It mentions discussion.

Not sure if this is something we want to make a formally specified office. Doesn't the citizens group handle this?

The Citizen Group in question is not active, nor does it hold any real power to do it.

This invites every Tom, Dick, and Sally in the demogame to poll something to death, which is the reason we normally say the poll created by the official responsible for an area is binding and others are not, unless there is no poll by the official.

This creates a major problem then, with hundreds of possble loopholes and abuses. What if a leader is basing there decision off a week old poll, and say, that a citizen posted a newer poll over the same subject that came to a differant result. Hell, a poll posted by an official at the wrong time can come to an entirely differant result than one posted just 3 days later. Anyone clever enough can easily abuse this system.

Doesn't say anything about a decision being made outside of the forums. It mentions discussion.

OK, my mistake. What possible discussion could be held outside the forums that would be valid as a basis for making a decision inside the forums? It's like saying "dont hold closed door meetings, but if you do hold one please post the transcript".


This creates a major problem then, with hundreds of possble loopholes and abuses. What if a leader is basing there decision off a week old poll, and say, that a citizen posted a newer poll over the same subject that came to a differant result. Hell, a poll posted by an official at the wrong time can come to an entirely differant result than one posted just 3 days later. Anyone clever enough can easily abuse this system.


If you look at this poll (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=115526) you will find an example of a mechanism by which a decision based on old information can be overturned, without having to give every citizen poll the ability to override every leader's poll. My opinion is it's a smaller slap to have another leader do it than it is to have a citizen do it, however that's just my opinion. Given that this is the traditionalist thread, just thought I'd be traditional about something. :D

Im starting to side more twards Strider's consituton since at least it give more freedom for each department to plan things through.

OK, my mistake. What possible discussion could be held outside the forums that would be valid as a basis for making a decision inside the forums? It's like saying "dont hold closed door meetings, but if you do hold one please post the transcript".

We don't know, which is why it's best to leave it there.

If you look at this poll (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=115526) you will find an example of a mechanism by which a decision based on old information can be overturned, without having to give every citizen poll the ability to override every leader's poll. My opinion is it's a smaller slap to have another leader do it than it is to have a citizen do it, however that's just my opinion. Given that this is the traditionalist thread, just thought I'd be traditional about something. :D

Actually, that's more of the President doing his advisors jobs for them.

OK, my mistake. What possible discussion could be held outside the forums that would be valid as a basis for making a decision inside the forums? It's like saying "dont hold closed door meetings, but if you do hold one please post the transcript".


We don't know, which is why it's best to leave it there.


Umm, someone must have had an idea about another place discussions could be held, other than in the forum. If there had never been such an idea then it doesn't make sense to have this provision. I can think of one idea for such a discussion, but will not list it here because I don't want to give anyone ideas that we would regret later.

However, let's look at this as a standalone statement without worrying about where it came from. Simply put, why do we want to make a special provision for this? Also this seems to have a lot of potential for abuse, as it seems to allow leaders to have a private discussion, base their decision on that private discussion, and the only requirement is that the discussion has to be posted 6 hours before the play session for it to be legal to base the decision solely on that private information.

Here is an alternative article which does not have these shortcomings.


Article I. The Will of the People
Elected officials must plan and act according to the will of the people. The will of the people will be determined through discussion and polls, which must be conducted in the Demogame Forums.

FYI

I have given up debating constitutional amendments in this thread, as the debate is too heated and polarized. I just want 3-4 practical amendments in Articles C-E and live with it, rather than killing off the two layers. I only see die hard supporters and die hard opponents of the Alternate Government clash together, with no other end product than stalling much needed reforms. As Chief Justice I am not allowed to propose amendments (this should actually be a law, that Judiciary members cannot post new legislation for checks of balances), so I will need the pragmatic and solution oriented component of the citizenry to bring this about.

I would suggest a non judiciary member to open a discussion on ways we need to change article C - E. Mostly to balance the departments....

Are there any plans to restore the old government system since I have the feeling that some offices have lost their powers or significantly reduced.

Personaly, I dont know why some powers have been striped from each government and molded into a different government department. I do wish that we return the powers that were once held in their respected offices. (IE FAs just deals with FAs, Military deals with war planing, Culture deals with Culture, etc.)

In reading the consitution, apperently both departments (Commander of Armed Forces and Exsternal Affairs) both share the same responsibilities in regards to war plans (IE. drawing up route maps for units to use). This is the only example I can think of ATM at 3:21 AM EDT :p.

Are there any plans to restore the old government system since I have the feeling that some offices have lost their powers or significantly reduced.

Personaly, I dont know why some powers have been striped from each government and molded into a different government department. I do wish that we return the powers that were once held in their respected offices. (IE FAs just deals with FAs, Military deals with war planing, Culture deals with Culture, etc.)

In reading the consitution, apperently both departments (Commander of Armed Forces and Exsternal Affairs) both share the same responsibilities in regards to war plans (IE. drawing up route maps for units to use). This is the only example I can think of ATM at 3:21 AM EDT :p.

How it should work is External answers the who and what questions -- who to hit and high level objectives. The Commander is supposed to have complete freedom on how to meet those objectives.

I think it's just the wording in the Constitution. As I see it, the External Consul decides on objectives, and the Commander is in charge of reaching those objectives. For example, the External Consul could say that our objective is to capture Amsterdam, and then the Commander would go about planning troop movements and logistics. I don't think External is supposed to be drawing up actual battle plans.

Members of the Tradationalists Citizens Group.

A poll has been recently posted (Thank goodness its an unoffical/survey one) that would threaten the turnchats. We must unite together to push against the Turnchat Privitation which would lead to Disenfranchising, Alienation and, de-democratization of the Demogame. I urge members of the Traditionaists whom have not voted, to vote no on this measure.

Please visit the link that is posted in my signature entitled, "Vote No! for Turnchat Privitation".

How it should work is External answers the who and what questions -- who to hit and high level objectives. The Commander is supposed to have complete freedom on how to meet those objectives.
Not realy, since I see them as a restrictive way to keep the powers away from the Military Department. I remembered back in previous demogame that the Military Department was free to set the objectives, not the FAs.

Not realy, since I see them as a restrictive way to keep the powers away from the Military Department. I remembered back in previous demogame that the Military Department was free to set the objectives, not the FAs.

if i had been elected this is the way i was planing to do things

Things don't seem to be getting anywhere towards bring back a more traditional system. drastic action is needed

Things don't seem to be getting anywhere towards bring back a more traditional system. drastic action is needed
Pashent young grasshopper. No need to rush things.

Not realy, since I see them as a restrictive way to keep the powers away from the Military Department. I remembered back in previous demogame that the Military Department was free to set the objectives, not the FAs.

I remember a previous demogame where an entire term was pretty much a two person show, the Military Leader and the President. But that's not the reason for the current work division, the Commander's role is supposed to have more freedom than it currently does. Maybe if the External Consul's needs were anticipated (like opening a Dutch war thread to talk about what can be done with our current troops and what troops we need) then the Commander's role wouldn't feel so threatened. ;)

Right now I feel like the San Francisco Cop "Dirty Harry", and I am sick and tired of the bureaucracy, double standards and empty talk at the City Hall.

Right now I feel like the San Francisco Cop "Dirty Harry", and I am sick and tired of the bureaucracy, double standards and empty talk at the City Hall.

Don't see any double standards here, so don't know what you're referring to. No offense intended to anyone who has posted here, but this entire thread is empty talk in the context of actually playing the game -- but it is every citizen's right to have free speech within the forum rules, something I will defend to my dying breath. :hammer:

I think things work OK. I think that the failings we have seen are mainly failings in individuals (particularly myself), rather than constitution. Going back to something we have already voted to leave behind is something I find difficult to understand.

For me, just a few tweaks to balance up workload between jobs, and one or two fewer offices (Because the participating citizens have trouble filling all the jobs) and it would be fine. Also this game is only 100 early turns old. Once the game gets bigger and there is more to do then things will change. I am pretty much happy to stick with the current system. Perfect it's not, but then nor is any other system that has been either tried or advocated.

Personally I find the increasingly vitriolic attacks on certain individuals and groups of individuals rather sickening. This is the only thread in the entire DG forum I don't read. I read it today to see if anything had changed. But it hasn't has it? And it won't, will it?

Don't see any double standards here, so don't know what you're referring to. No offense intended to anyone who has posted here, but this entire thread is empty talk in the context of actually playing the game -- but it is every citizen's right to have free speech within the forum rules, something I will defend to my dying breath. :hammer:

There is no fight here, no violation of citizens rights, no drama, no need to declare a valiant struggle to "a dying breath". I merely stated my disaffection with the punctuated and futile, not to mention the watered and obstacled constitutional reform debate which is polarized, has no progress, no constructivity and no production of tangible results. Only polarities seem to be accepted truisms, and as "Dirty Harry" I am leaving the SF Police to its politically correct devices and playing snooker and drinking beer at the local pub.

I just observe a general apathy and disaffection, and a general depopulation.
Someone just won the war, but lost the peace, with no subjects to rule.

I remember a previous demogame where an entire term was pretty much a two person show, the Military Leader and the President. But that's not the reason for the current work division, the Commander's role is supposed to have more freedom than it currently does. Maybe if the External Consul's needs were anticipated (like opening a Dutch war thread to talk about what can be done with our current troops and what troops we need) then the Commander's role wouldn't feel so threatened.

The Commander should just plan for any eventuality, and carry out the policy of the External console. They should be relativly non-political in the way they carry it out. Just lobbying governors for units. I think the External console should be given the power to actually carry out all foreign affairs and in exchange for this trade can be given to commerce.

This is the only thread in the entire DG forum I don't read. I read it today to see if anything had changed. But it hasn't has it? And it won't, will it?

its not called the Tradationalists for nothing

I'll join even though I've skipped most of what Strider posted :lol:

phew i wasnt the only one, yer ill join sounds like fun.

Do I have the feeling that the people who are still devout traditionalists are becoming the silent minority? (When I mean by devout traditionalists, I refer to the members who adhear to the values of the traditionalits such as the old demogame consitution and keeping the TCs public)

atleast there is now reforms happening, the laws are starting to change. although i would like a return to a older style of goverment. I would be happy if the offices of the current form were to made better. also if we were to ever get political partys Tradtionlists and Alternatives would be cool partys.

atleast there is now reforms happening, the laws are starting to change. although i would like a return to a older style of goverment. I would be happy if the offices of the current form were to made better. also if we were to ever get political partys Tradtionlists and Alternatives would be cool partys.
I come to wonder what Major US parties would each DG political party would represent.

My guess as follows:
Tradtionalits: Republicans
Alternatives: Democrats

I come to wonder what Major US parties would each DG political party would represent.

My guess as follows:
Tradtionalits: Republicans
Alternatives: Democrats
Well, then I guess that you're the silent minority, eh Democrat CivGeneral? ;)

I like the ideas of this group. Ill join Im new to thins so please bear with me.

hmm I am a republican, but am for the alternate government...
DaveShack is a republican, Strider is a Republican, I don't think you can equate political parties to this...

I am a hardcore rightwinger and Illuminati supporter.

I'm a radical left-winger, but I suppose I support this constitution over that of the 'Alternates'.

You'd probably label me a Democrat in the US, yet I think the 'alternate' constitution was a good move.

No connection whatsoever.

Well, that theory's pretty much blown... :lol:

Usage note: the following post is in US terminology. There could be differences if you're from somewhere else. :)

In general the term "conservative" generally means the side of an issue which tends to resist change, and "liberal" generally means the side which embraces change. Someone with a "moderate" position tends to take each question on its own merit and resist excesses in either direction.

This is by no means completely accurate, and notice I say it applies to each issue. Staying within the demogame, I'm a conservative with respect to the chat (my views lean towards keeping the tradition of the chat alive), a liberal with respect to coming up with new offices such as a designated DP who does not hold another office, and believe it or not a moderate with respect to the overall government style. A true liberal on government style would refuse to even consider returning to the traditional style, where my position is that I can live with and work within either extreme, and would prefer something in the middle.

Now, taking a cue from CG's article in the Camelot Times, I would like to ask the members of this citizen's group, can you (we) be more than a one issue group? Are there other traditions of the DemoGame which are worth our support? What about using our energies to support the tradition of role play, either as a game unto itself or as an organic part of the democracy game itself? How about continuing the tradition of encouraging full participation both in the forum and in the chat? If this group is really about keeping DemoGame traditions alive, don't fall victim to obsession about a single issue.

In general the term "conservative" generally means the side of an issue which tends to resist change, and "liberal" generally means the side which embraces change. Someone with a "moderate" position tends to take each question on its own merit and resist excesses in either direction.

This is by no means completely accurate, and notice I say it applies to each issue. Staying within the demogame, I'm a conservative with respect to the chat (my views lean towards keeping the tradition of the chat alive), a liberal with respect to coming up with new offices such as a designated DP who does not hold another office, and believe it or not a moderate with respect to the overall government style. A true liberal on government style would refuse to even consider returning to the traditional style, where my position is that I can live with and work within either extreme, and would prefer something in the middle.
Replace the word "liberal" with "progressive" and I'd agree with that analysis. ;)

I am a hardcore rightwinger and Illuminati supporter.

ummm... provo you know we are not real don't you

Well its a bit different, if a liberal goverment gets in it isnt going to totally change the constitution of my country (also my country dosent really have one :) )

Well its a bit different, if a liberal goverment gets in it isnt going to totally change the constitution of my country (also my country dosent really have one :) )

I am afraid that I cannot say the same for my country's conservative government if it continues to gain power.

I am afraid that I cannot say the same for my country's conservative government if it continues to gain power.

I do not want this to get into an off-topic discussion, but...

Some would argue that the predominately liberal (congressional) government of the 30's thru 70's already changed the constitution beyond recognition of its true intent, via judicial activism. :rolleyes:

I am afraid that I cannot say the same for my country's conservative government if it continues to gain power.
and what is this country you speak of? ;)
I know no contry with a conservative governemnt currently trying to gain enormoous amounts of power :D

and what is this country you speak of? ;)
I know no contry with a conservative governemnt currently trying to gain enormoous amounts of power :D

uhhh.... america.

I do not want this to get into an off-topic discussion, but...

Some would argue that the predominately liberal (congressional) government of the 30's thru 70's already changed the constitution beyond recognition of its true intent, via judicial activism. :rolleyes:

And now everyone in this country can vote! Those pesky liberals! :lol:

Actually, I am a moderate and am still appalled by the current regime. But until there is a Moderate Party, each party will be partially defined by its extremes. And I'll choose treehuggers and civil rights over racists and 10mpg Hummers (and the unneccessary oil drilling needed to maintain them) anyday.

And just because I don't want the Ten Commandments on all our state buildings doesn't make me a (channeling Falwell) "god-liss heathen-uh." :devil: Give the extremes of the Republican Party an inch (as the Supreme Court did in 2000...talk about your judicial activism. :lol: ) and they'll call it a mandate.

I know that the examples above don't define you, Dave, but you do choose to look the other way on them. We are in for some dark days if this trend continues, mark me words.

Well, golly, if I'd known this thread was going to turn into an American politics debate I would've paid attention a lot sooner!

Seriously, nothing bogs down a thread (and ends up getting people banned) quite like a politics. Please, pretty please, focus on the topic. I can't take watching what this could become.

I didn't expect a former mod to come back with off-topic specifics. :eek:

Let's stop now before a current mod gets irate and gives us a vacation. ;)

I wouldn't generally be defined as a republican, there just the closest representation inside of the U.S. political party spectrum. Basicly I am:

Elimination of Social Welfare
Longer jail times for Felony crimes, but more fines/ a decrease for misdemeanors. (Meaning, instead of throwing more buglers in jail, give them the option to pay a very hefty fine. Saves us the money of keeping them and jail, and helps support other government initiatives.)
Complete seperation of Church and state (reasonably)
Larger and better funded army
Expansion by conquest
Leaving the United Nations
Pro-life
Anti- gay marriage

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Back on topic... Crazy Eddy you've been added to the member list, and welcome. I also encourage all tradationalists to vote YES inside of this poll (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=117076)